I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains. At
first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but it
taken me several steps to finish it, and I can't flip the cursor, so I
made a utility. With it I can switch mouse buttons and flip the cursor
immediately by pressing a hotkey. I gave it a name: "Ambidexter Mouse",
do you want to have a try: www.ambidexter-mouse.com

> right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
> hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains. At
> first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but it

Why do you bother? I can mouse with either hand and there is no need to
swap mouse buttons or flip anything else.

Of course this software is probably a Trojan given how you've
advertised it.

WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
> right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
> hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains. 

Wrong idea.  Better to not use the mouse all that much, instead.  And
learn proper 10-finger typing.  Possibly use a Dworak layout and/or a
more ergonomic keyboard.

> At first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but
> it taken me several steps to finish it, and I can't flip the cursor,
> so I made a utility. 

Hmm... so it never occured to you just buy a second mouse, then?

-- 
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.

WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
> right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
> hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains. At
> first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but it
> taken me several steps to finish it, and I can't flip the cursor, so I
> made a utility. With it I can switch mouse buttons and flip the cursor
> immediately by pressing a hotkey. I gave it a name: "Ambidexter Mouse",
> do you want to have a try: www.ambidexter-mouse.com

Why does it take an executable of 1.3 MByte to draw two buttons and make
one system call ?

-- 
:wq
^X^Cy^K^X^C^C^C^C

Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
> WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
> > right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
> > hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains.
>
> Wrong idea.  Better to not use the mouse all that much, instead.  And
> learn proper 10-finger typing.  Possibly use a Dworak layout and/or a
> more ergonomic keyboard.

How does touch typing replace a mouse???

> > At first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but
> > it taken me several steps to finish it, and I can't flip the cursor,
> > so I made a utility.
>
> Hmm... so it never occured to you just buy a second mouse, then?

How would having a second mouse eliminate the need to switch the
buttons?

I also have had trouble with my right arm from so much use of the
computer.  I also never liked the fact that when you center the typing
part of the keyboard in front of you, the number pad pushes the right
side out and you have to reach past that to get to the mouse.  A
chiropractor told me that when I type, my upper arms should be hanging
at my sides which can't happen when I have to reach out for the mouse.
Holding your elbows away from your side as you type and mouse can give
you stiffness and pain in your shoulders and neck.

So I moved the mouse to the left side of my keyboard and learned to
mouse leftie.  I didn't switch the buttons because initially I was just
testing the concept.  I found it did not matter which way the buttons
were set, so I left it the same.  It also allowed my keyboard to center
more easily as the keypad is on the right and the mouse is on the left
using about the same amount of space.

Now anyone who uses my computer seems to think I am left handed and I
have to explain to them I am right handed but left moused.

"Hans-Bernhard Broeker" <broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de> wrote in message 
news:4856a9FigmqrU7@news.dfncis.de...
> WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
>> right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
>> hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains.
>
> Wrong idea.  Better to not use the mouse all that much, instead.  And
> learn proper 10-finger typing.  Possibly use a Dworak layout and/or a
> more ergonomic keyboard.

Something tells me you ONLY use emacs.

larwe <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
>> hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains. At
>> first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but it
> 
> Why do you bother? I can mouse with either hand and there is no need to
> swap mouse buttons or flip anything else.
> 
> Of course this software is probably a Trojan given how you've
> advertised it.

I swear by the five-button Microsoft trackball with scroll-wheel. Causes
me much less grief than a mouse; I even use one on my Mac. A very nice
input device.

pete
-- 
pete@fenelon.com [Support no2id.net: working to destroy Blair's ID card fraud]

rickman wrote:

> A chiropractor told me that when I type, my upper arms should be hanging
> at my sides which can't happen when I have to reach out for the mouse.
> Holding your elbows away from your side as you type and mouse can give
> you stiffness and pain in your shoulders and neck.
> 

So why are modern laptop computers designed with the keyboard placed
to the rear near the screen where it is impossible to get proper
and comfortable hand position?  I have avoided newer generations
of laptop because of this (I use Compaq Armada 7800s for example,
but the 'creeping cursor' problem of the trackpoint driver is
very annoying).  I suppose one could use an external keyboard but
this shouldn't be necessary -- don't manufacturers test their
designs with real typists?

Michael Grigoni
Cybertheque Museum

rickman wrote:
> Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
>> WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and
>>> day, my right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to
>>> mouse in both hands. I find that it is really an efficient way
>>> to release pains.
>>
>> Wrong idea.  Better to not use the mouse all that much, instead. 
>> And learn proper 10-finger typing.  Possibly use a Dworak layout
>> and/or a more ergonomic keyboard.
> 
> How does touch typing replace a mouse???

By replacing it with keys, as god and nature intended. 
Unfortunately too many applications today don't supply proper key
sequence alternatives to the unholy click.

-- 
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
 the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article.  Click on 
 "show options" at the top of the article, then click on the 
 "Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>

usenet@zevv.nl wrote:

> WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
> > right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
> > hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains. At
> > first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but it
> > taken me several steps to finish it, and I can't flip the cursor, so I
> > made a utility. With it I can switch mouse buttons and flip the cursor
> > immediately by pressing a hotkey. I gave it a name: "Ambidexter Mouse",
> > do you want to have a try: www.ambidexter-mouse.com
>
> Why does it take an executable of 1.3 MByte to draw two buttons and make
> one system call ?
>

he probably did it in MFC...   what amazes me is he actually paid to have an
entire domain name for this :)

David

msg wrote:

> So why are modern laptop computers designed with the keyboard placed
> to the rear near the screen where it is impossible to get proper
> and comfortable hand position?  I have avoided newer generations

Huh? How do you figure this? A large wrist-rest gives you
close-to-ideal hand position. It would be nice to have a tiltable
keyboard, but I don't think any laptop vendor offers this.

David Lindauer <camille@bluegrass.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> usenet@zevv.nl wrote:
> 
>> WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
>> > right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
>> > hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains. At
>> > first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but it
>> > taken me several steps to finish it, and I can't flip the cursor, so I
>> > made a utility. With it I can switch mouse buttons and flip the cursor
>> > immediately by pressing a hotkey. I gave it a name: "Ambidexter Mouse",
>> > do you want to have a try: www.ambidexter-mouse.com
>>
>> Why does it take an executable of 1.3 MByte to draw two buttons and make
>> one system call ?
>>
> 
> he probably did it in MFC...   what amazes me is he actually paid to have an
> entire domain name for this :)

Selling one copy ($14) should pay back that investment...

-- 
:wq
^X^Cy^K^X^C^C^C^C

"Pete Fenelon" <pete@fenelon.com> wrote in message 
news:8u50f3-g242.ln1@stratos.fenelon.com...
>
> I swear by the five-button Microsoft trackball with scroll-wheel. Causes
> me much less grief than a mouse; I even use one on my Mac. A very nice
> input device.

Same here. Been using a series of trackballs for about 10 years now, and 
currently using the Microsoft offering. Keeping the supporting ball bearings 
clean and judder-free is a bit of a pain, though. How do you manage, Pete?

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

larwe wrote:

> msg wrote:
> 
> 
>>So why are modern laptop computers designed with the keyboard placed
>>to the rear near the screen where it is impossible to get proper
>>and comfortable hand position?  I have avoided newer generations
> 
> 
> Huh? How do you figure this? A large wrist-rest gives you
> close-to-ideal hand position. It would be nice to have a tiltable
> keyboard, but I don't think any laptop vendor offers this.
> 
For those of us who trained as touch typists (and also play piano,
etc.) it just is wrong and uncomfortable.

Michael Grigoni
Cybertheque Museum

Steve at fivetrees <steve@nospamtafivetrees.com> wrote:
> 
> Same here. Been using a series of trackballs for about 10 years now, and 
> currently using the Microsoft offering. Keeping the supporting ball bearings 
> clean and judder-free is a bit of a pain, though. How do you manage, Pete?
> 

Both of mine seem fine, as long as I scrape out the gunk that
collects around the bearings every so often. A toothpick is ideal for
that.

pete
-- 
pete@fenelon.com [Support no2id.net: working to destroy Blair's ID card fraud]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:07:07 -0600, msg <msg@_cybertheque.org_> wrote:

>larwe wrote:
>
>> msg wrote:
>> 
>>>So why are modern laptop computers designed with the keyboard placed
>>>to the rear near the screen where it is impossible to get proper
>>>and comfortable hand position?  I have avoided newer generations
>> 
>> Huh? How do you figure this? A large wrist-rest gives you
>> close-to-ideal hand position. It would be nice to have a tiltable
>> keyboard, but I don't think any laptop vendor offers this.
>> 
>For those of us who trained as touch typists (and also play piano,
>etc.) it just is wrong and uncomfortable.
>
>Michael Grigoni
>Cybertheque Museum

This is my own perspective about them, as well.  I greatly dislike the
keyboard being placed away from the nearby edge.  And I play piano, as
well.  This is probably one of the few areas where I disagree with
Lewin.

Jon

msg wrote:

> > Huh? How do you figure this? A large wrist-rest gives you
> > close-to-ideal hand position. It would be nice to have a tiltable
> > keyboard, but I don't think any laptop vendor offers this.
> >
> For those of us who trained as touch typists (and also play piano,
> etc.) it just is wrong and uncomfortable.

Swing and strike... I trained in both. I'm touch-typing this on a
laptop as I speak, by the way (the laptop is on the keyboard drawer of
a desk and I'm actually not watching the screen; I'm watching "Time
Bandits" on a monitor in the monitor hutch of the computer desk).

The main thing I dislike about this particular laptop (besides the fact
that it's a piece of crap) is the short key travel.

My piano teachers taught me that the ideal finger curvature for playing
piano was to grip an imaginary tennis ball. Wrists raised, fingers
curved.

This is unrelated to the ergonomically recommended posture for typing,
which is to have wrists solidly supported, elbows bent at 90 degrees,
forearm parallel to floor, monitor slightly below eye level, feet flat
on floor, knees bent at 90 degrees, back straight up-and-down, etc. My
current workstation doesn't have enough adjustable-height surfaces to
meet all these requirements, unfortunately.

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

> This is my own perspective about them, as well.  I greatly dislike the
> keyboard being placed away from the nearby edge.  And I play piano, as
> well.  This is probably one of the few areas where I disagree with
> Lewin.

We have only this one thing to argue about? That's not the Usenet way;
I'm ashamed of you, Jonathan.

Anyway - The first notebook I owned was a Halikan (Chaplet) NBD486.
That had the keyboard up to within 1/4" of the front of the unit. I
could never get comfortable typing on that damn thing without bringing
a book or something up to it so I had a platform on which to rest my
wrists.

Haven't you seen how all those ergonomic low-stress keyboards have
long, gently-sloping wrist-rest ramps leading up to the keyboard?
Moving the keyboard back is a feature, not a bug. It wasn't an
accidental thing, either.

Now, the thing I really dislike about modern laptops (besides the fact
that no new computer is worth buying) is the relative scarcity of the
eraser-tip style pointing device in favor of those loathsome
capacitative touchpads.

CBFalconer wrote:

> "If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
>  the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article.  Click on

You know, the REAL evil of groups.google.com is that I am currently the
top poster of all time in comp.arch.embedded, but I'm in that position
as larwe@larwe.com. Since I can no longer use my real email address
when posting here from Google, that means I have a long, LONG way to go
to catch up with myself.

"Pete Fenelon" <pete@fenelon.com> wrote in message 
news:cao0f3-1952.ln1@stratos.fenelon.com...
> Steve at fivetrees <steve@nospamtafivetrees.com> wrote:
>>
>> Same here. Been using a series of trackballs for about 10 years now, and
>> currently using the Microsoft offering. Keeping the supporting ball 
>> bearings
>> clean and judder-free is a bit of a pain, though. How do you manage, 
>> Pete?
>
> Both of mine seem fine, as long as I scrape out the gunk that
> collects around the bearings every so often. A toothpick is ideal for
> that.

Hmmm. I think I might have worn this one out, then. At least one of the 
bearings has a flat worn on it... and clearly hasn't rotated (assuming it's 
supposed to) in a very long time. Ah well... next!

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

Steve at fivetrees wrote:


> Hmmm. I think I might have worn this one out, then. At least one of the
> bearings has a flat worn on it... and clearly hasn't rotated (assuming it's

Get an optical trackball (my wife has a Logitech one). No cleaning
necessary. It works like an optical mouse; the ball has a semi-random
pattern of dots printed on it.

rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
> > WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
> > > right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
> > > hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains.
> >
> > Wrong idea.  Better to not use the mouse all that much, instead.  And
> > learn proper 10-finger typing.  Possibly use a Dworak layout and/or a
> > more ergonomic keyboard.

> How does touch typing replace a mouse???

It doesn't, nor did I say so.  That's why there are 4 sentences by me
in the above quote, and the third starts with an "And".

> > Hmm... so it never occured to you just buy a second mouse, then?

> How would having a second mouse eliminate the need to switch the
> buttons?

It would eliminate the need to do that exercise more than once in your
lifetime, and thus the need for a dedicated program to do it.

-- 
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.

On 19 Mar 2006 12:02:15 -0800, "larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>
>> This is my own perspective about them, as well.  I greatly dislike the
>> keyboard being placed away from the nearby edge.  And I play piano, as
>> well.  This is probably one of the few areas where I disagree with
>> Lewin.
>
>We have only this one thing to argue about? That's not the Usenet way;
>I'm ashamed of you, Jonathan.

:)

>Anyway - The first notebook I owned was a Halikan (Chaplet) NBD486.
>That had the keyboard up to within 1/4" of the front of the unit. I
>could never get comfortable typing on that damn thing without bringing
>a book or something up to it so I had a platform on which to rest my
>wrists.

I understand.  But I learned a long time ago how to select chairs of
the right altitude, place my hands correctly, and it's no effort at
all to suspend them and use them in this fashion.

Perhaps you recall (if you were trained to write with a pencil and pen
as a young kid) the instruction to avoid pinching your pencil real
hard, so hard that you wind up reversing your knuckle somewhat.
Instead, you are instructed to not pressure, but just gently suspend
and hold, your "writing instrument."  Some folks never got this
instruction and will eventually find an accommodation that works for
them, but not nearly as well as if they had learned the right practice
early on.

It's kind of like that, I imagine.  Right now, on my keyboard, I have
my hands suspended in the air right near my lap (in other words, my
arms hang directly down) and they are resting on nothing at all as I
type.  No resting board, etc.

>Haven't you seen how all those ergonomic low-stress keyboards have
>long, gently-sloping wrist-rest ramps leading up to the keyboard?
>Moving the keyboard back is a feature, not a bug. It wasn't an
>accidental thing, either.

I'm sure it wasn't accidental.  So I agree with you on that point.

I don't happen to like it, as it increases my difficulties.  I've been
trained how to position myself and use my hands in piano playing and
I've been using keyboard for more years than you have been alive, some
40 years now.  My opinion may be a matter for debate, but I don't
think there is any argument that what I've been trained to do is a
valid and reasoned approach that does work well, for those so trained.
It conflicts with the arrangements of some of these keyboard designs.
Luckily, there are designs that work well, as I've been trained to use
them.

So, I'd say just use what works for you.  But I just didn't want
anyone to improperly take your comments as suggesting a gospel line
that such is the "correct way."  I know you didn't say so, but the
impression could have been taken from it.  I figured I'd chip in and
point out that there is at least one other valid approach.

>Now, the thing I really dislike about modern laptops (besides the fact
>that no new computer is worth buying) is the relative scarcity of the
>eraser-tip style pointing device in favor of those loathsome
>capacitative touchpads.

Hehe.  You mean the IBM Thinkpad thingies?  Yes, I'm used to those and
like them better than the touchpads, too.  Oh, well.  Sorry to have to
agree with you there!  ;)

....

What galls me about computers today is that we have 100's of millions
of transistors (nay, it's well into the billions) in a laptop.  The
CPUs are burning up prodigious wattage when running at full speed.
There is L1 cache, L2 cache, overlapped transactions on the front side
bus, inbound and outbound queuing, read-around-writes, 100's of
megabytes of RAM, 100's of gigs of disk space, etc.  And all for what?
So that I can sit here with a 3 GHz CPU that's eating 100 watts while
I edit ascii text, use a command line compiler, edit this simple ASCII
text, etc?  Or so that some game writer doesn't have to be bothered
with optimizing their matrix equations or learning how to make better
use of the hardware and can plan on 200 Meg of textures in RAM and
just "brute force it" all?

I'd like a simple laptop using an 80386 CPU running at a few hundred
kHz built upon 180nm feature size technology for super low power.  DOS
or linux or 386BSD based tools.  Modern IC technology, small static
external cache and large dynamic RAM designed for minimizing power
through not cycling the DRAM as often (not speed), simpler CPU. That's
it.  AA batteries for ease of finding and replacement anywhere in the
world.  Darned thing could probably run for a year without changing
out the AA's.  The HP 300 unit I have, running Win 3.1 with a 1" hard
drive, was pretty close (used AA batteries) except that it uses old
technology for the CPU and could only last a couple of weeks. Today,
that could be made to last very much longer.

I don't do much at all requiring graphics; I'm an embedded programmer
working on scientific and commercial instrumentation and not end user
consumer items where sizzle plays large.  I edit ascii files.  I do
some word processing (but Word 5.5 was just perfect and DOS-based.)  I
use command line compilation.  I get mail, send mail, and read a few
newsgroups.  I don't need font colors and docking windows.  I can live
without print preview, too.  I don't want IDEs, choices of vertical
and horizontal layouts, etc.  When I use a laptop, I want something
that I can use on a road trip without worry about having to have a
power cord following me around, either for the car's cigarette lighter
plug or the AC wall.  Batteries should go in and last for months at a
stretch.  Should be AA -- no fancy $100+ Li-ion stuff in funky shapes
and colors.  Real simple, real easy, buy-anywhere for cheap batteries.

Jon

On 19 Mar 2006 12:06:01 -0800, "larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote:

>CBFalconer wrote:
>
>> "If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
>>  the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article.  Click on
>
>You know, the REAL evil of groups.google.com is that I am currently the
>top poster of all time in comp.arch.embedded, but I'm in that position
>as larwe@larwe.com. Since I can no longer use my real email address
>when posting here from Google, that means I have a long, LONG way to go
>to catch up with myself.

I'm sure you are up to it, Lewin.  ;)

Jon

On 19 Mar 2006 12:02:15 -0800, "larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote:

><snip>
>We have only this one thing to argue about? That's not the Usenet way;
>I'm ashamed of you, Jonathan.
><snip>

Shucks.  I forgot.  I didn't entirely agree with the way you set up
your shelving.  That bow in the middle was really annoying!  I knew
there had to be at least two things!  ;)

Jon

>How does touch typing replace a mouse???

You can replace almost every mouse function with a keyboard shortcut, (
for most programs anyway except CAD )

You would be in awe of someone who has complete mastery of 100 or so
keyboard shortcuts, I know of one such person, he can open/close
programs /cut/paste/ jump to/access menus so blindingly fast as to make
me feel like a complete idiot when he watches me do the same with a
mouse. The mouse is a crutch for the most part, easy to use initially
but really slows you down in the long run as it continuously forces you
to move your hand off the keyboard. Learning all the keyboard shortcuts
is not easy though, probably as difficult as learning how to type
moderately fast.

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> 
.... snip ...
> 
> I don't do much at all requiring graphics; I'm an embedded programmer
> working on scientific and commercial instrumentation and not end user
> consumer items where sizzle plays large.  I edit ascii files.  I do
> some word processing (but Word 5.5 was just perfect and DOS-based.)  I
> use command line compilation.  I get mail, send mail, and read a few
> newsgroups.  I don't need font colors and docking windows.  I can live
> without print preview, too.  I don't want IDEs, choices of vertical
> and horizontal layouts, etc.  When I use a laptop, I want something
> that I can use on a road trip without worry about having to have a
> power cord following me around, either for the car's cigarette lighter
> plug or the AC wall.  Batteries should go in and last for months at a
> stretch.  Should be AA -- no fancy $100+ Li-ion stuff in funky shapes
> and colors.  Real simple, real easy, buy-anywhere for cheap batteries.

And like me, no doubt, when anyone comes by and sees a text screen
and command lines you get accused of being a neanderthalic
throwback.  My machines come up with a full text/command line
window.

-- 
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
 the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article.  Click on 
 "show options" at the top of the article, then click on the 
 "Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

> I understand.  But I learned a long time ago how to select chairs of
> the right altitude, place my hands correctly, and it's no effort at
> all to suspend them and use them in this fashion.

Somewhere, an OSHA representative is reading this and having a heart
attack.

> Perhaps you recall (if you were trained to write with a pencil and pen
> as a young kid) the instruction to avoid pinching your pencil real
> hard, so hard that you wind up reversing your knuckle somewhat.

I'm not sure. I know I probably gripped my pens much too hard, because
I haven't done a whole lot of handwriting since high school (16 years
ago) and I STILL have a writers' callus on my right middle finger.

> I don't happen to like it, as it increases my difficulties.  I've been
> trained how to position myself and use my hands in piano playing and
> I've been using keyboard for more years than you have been alive, some

Ah, now here's something else we can argue about and really get our
teeth into. What exactly is the relationship between piano playing and
typing? Piano playing has four major differences from typing:

1. Velocity is important in piano playing.
2. Maximum force is much higher in piano playing than in [modern]
typing.
3. Piano keys are in "one and a half" dimensions vs. the distinctly
two-dimensional keyboard. The size of the piano keyboard is also much
larger, and this is not insignificant. A good touch typist barely moves
the hand at all; the fingers stretch to cover the keys. This is why
supported, fixed wrist positions work for typing. A pianist, however,
_MUST_ move the wrists laterally along the keyboard to reach low and
high notes.
4. Few people operate a piano continuously for more than eight hours a
day.

So, what is the reason to believe that the best position for one is the
best position for the other? These appear to be radically different
activities.

> So, I'd say just use what works for you.  But I just didn't want
> anyone to improperly take your comments as suggesting a gospel line
> that such is the "correct way."  I know you didn't say so, but the

Mutter, mutter, curmudgeonly stuff, mutter mutter :)

> >that no new computer is worth buying) is the relative scarcity of the
> >eraser-tip style pointing device in favor of those loathsome
> >capacitative touchpads.
>
> Hehe.  You mean the IBM Thinkpad thingies?  Yes, I'm used to those and

Yes. Having to use a touchpad moves my hands off the keys. NONE of the
inbuilt laptop pointing devices (even trackballs) are accurate enough
for intensive mouse work anyway - I'd rather have the eraser tip than
the trackpad, given that all I need it for is to access options that
can't be reached from the keyboard due to defective programmers.

> I'd like a simple laptop using an 80386 CPU running at a few hundred
> kHz built upon 180nm feature size technology for super low power.  DOS
> or linux or 386BSD based tools.  Modern IC technology, small static

Sounds like you want a Newton MessagePad 2100 running Linux instead of
Newton OS :)

> out the AA's.  The HP 300 unit I have, running Win 3.1 with a 1" hard

I had a 200LX but sold it eventually; rarely used the thing.

Can't argue with most of your requirements there. Those devices are
called cellphones now. I have a Sidekick, which lets me telnet in to my
home computers and run my compilers there (from my seat in a bar). One
of my fairly recent articles - I forget which - was written entirely on
the Sidekick while sitting in a bar, over a couple of sessions. Built
the code on my Mac mini (running Linux) using telnet over GPRS.

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

> Shucks.  I forgot.  I didn't entirely agree with the way you set up
> your shelving.  That bow in the middle was really annoying!  I knew
> there had to be at least two things!  ;)

My father-in-law chose to use two rails instead of three! It irritates
me too, because I wanted to put my containers of screws there. As it
is, I have to confine myself to lighter objects.

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

> 
> I don't happen to like it, as it increases my difficulties.  I've been
> trained how to position myself and use my hands in piano playing and
> I've been using keyboard for more years than you have been alive, some
> 40 years now.  My opinion may be a matter for debate, but I don't
> think there is any argument that what I've been trained to do is a
> valid and reasoned approach that does work well, for those so trained.
> It conflicts with the arrangements of some of these keyboard designs.
> Luckily, there are designs that work well, as I've been trained to use
> them.

Same here on all points above. I have suspected that there are
generational issues and perhaps also neuro-muscular ones as well
for those folks who grew-up using game controllers and who display
fast reaction times using the thumb which is entirely antithetical
to previous kinesthetic knowledge. When one learned to type on a
keyboard which required uniform impulse to create uniform impressions
on paper, one couldn't rest the wrists on a surface. Funny, I don't
recall any spate of carpel-tunnel amongst the vast throngs of
typing-pool typists either; this seemed to arise with the advent
of CRTs and a generation of operators not trained on typewriters.

The Selectric keyboard was a dream compared to other electrics
and certainly all manual typewriters; it provided good tactile
feedback and provided a roll-over facility in case of cadence
errors.  To this day I am extremely picky about key travel and
tactile feedback and get funny reactions from folks who are used
to crappy-mooshy key travel and cheap keyboards when I express
a preference. (This should be no big whoop compared with the
need of an old friend to carefully weigh loads of molten lead
to properly weigh his chess pieces).

I too would like an ultra-low-power 386 laptop; I still use an HP150
(with some ROM mods) and also a similar Tandy for the long battery
life -- these use low-power cmos versions of the 8086.

Michael Grigoni
Cybertheque Museum

Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
> > > WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
> > > > right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
> > > > hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains.
> > >
> > > Wrong idea.  Better to not use the mouse all that much, instead.  And
> > > learn proper 10-finger typing.  Possibly use a Dworak layout and/or a
> > > more ergonomic keyboard.
>
> > How does touch typing replace a mouse???
>
> It doesn't, nor did I say so.  That's why there are 4 sentences by me
> in the above quote, and the third starts with an "And".

It is good that you can count, but you still did not explain what you
meant by "better to not use the mouse all that much" and then talk
about the alternative, keyboard use.  If you are not saying you can use
the keyboard instead of the mouse, what exactly ARE you saying???  How
should he reduce his use of the mouse???

Notice that he is not complaning of pain in both hands, just the one he
uses with the mouse.  I had the same problem and I already touch type
with my arms in the right position.  Of the several changes I made,
switching the mouse to the left hand was the most effective to
releaving my pains.


> > > Hmm... so it never occured to you just buy a second mouse, then?
>
> > How would having a second mouse eliminate the need to switch the
> > buttons?
>
> It would eliminate the need to do that exercise more than once in your
> lifetime, and thus the need for a dedicated program to do it.

Again, you restate the claim, but you don't clarify it.  If he has two
mice, how does that preclude the need for switching the buttons?  A
mouse is still a mouse.  Are there special mice that have the buttons
reversed???  Are you saying you can set one mouse for left handed use
while keeping another right handed??? How would you do that?

CBFalconer wrote:

> And like me, no doubt, when anyone comes by and sees a text screen
> and command lines you get accused of being a neanderthalic
> throwback.  My machines come up with a full text/command line
> window.

My machines start in runlevel 3 also. It's excellent protection against
sticky fingers. Nobody knows where to begin.

"larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1142800365.794613.56320@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Hmmm. I think I might have worn this one out, then. At least one of the
>> bearings has a flat worn on it... and clearly hasn't rotated (assuming 
>> it's
>
> Get an optical trackball (my wife has a Logitech one). No cleaning
> necessary. It works like an optical mouse; the ball has a semi-random
> pattern of dots printed on it.

The Microsoft one is also optical - but the ball is supported on three tiny 
ball bearings. It's these that need cleaning... and in my case appear to be 
worn. I guess there is no maintenance-free rodent. Pah.

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

"joep" <bungalow_steve@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:1142805689.135364.303690@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >How does touch typing replace a mouse???
>
> You can replace almost every mouse function with a keyboard shortcut, (
> for most programs anyway except CAD )
>
> You would be in awe of someone who has complete mastery of 100 or so
> keyboard shortcuts, I know of one such person, he can open/close
> programs /cut/paste/ jump to/access menus so blindingly fast as to make
> me feel like a complete idiot when he watches me do the same with a
> mouse. The mouse is a crutch for the most part, easy to use initially
> but really slows you down in the long run as it continuously forces you
> to move your hand off the keyboard. Learning all the keyboard shortcuts
> is not easy though, probably as difficult as learning how to type
> moderately fast.

Heh - I only recently switched from PC-Write, a DOS editor, which I'd been 
using since circa '84. I kept using it well into the GUI age for just those 
reasons - my fingers knew all the shortcuts (my brain had long since 
forgotten them - if I had to explain a shortcut, I'd have to watch my 
fingers and relay what they were doing).

And I echo the requirement for a low-power laptop suited to text editing...

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

Steve at fivetrees wrote:


> The Microsoft one is also optical - but the ball is supported on three tiny
> ball bearings. It's these that need cleaning... and in my case appear to be
> worn. I guess there is no maintenance-free rodent. Pah.

Hmm, odd. My wife's is supported on what look like (but certainly
aren't) jewel bearings. Each suspension point has a little translucent
red sphere in it. It isn't a ball bearing per se, because the spheres
don't roll - they are simply hard plastic balls that touch the big
rolling ball at a small point and provide a low-friction contact.

"larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1142812341.100436.144990@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> The Microsoft one is also optical - but the ball is supported on three 
>> tiny
>> ball bearings. It's these that need cleaning... and in my case appear to 
>> be
>> worn. I guess there is no maintenance-free rodent. Pah.
>
> Hmm, odd. My wife's is supported on what look like (but certainly
> aren't) jewel bearings. Each suspension point has a little translucent
> red sphere in it. It isn't a ball bearing per se, because the spheres
> don't roll - they are simply hard plastic balls that touch the big
> rolling ball at a small point and provide a low-friction contact.

It may be the same deal with mine - I've never fully worked out whether the 
ball bearings roll. I suspect they don't. I certainly can't feel them 
moving, and as I said earlier, one is showing signs of a flat spot.

Whatever the reason, I find the ball frequently gets juddery... and I'm 
fairly fastidious about having clean hands. Seems to be the one design 
failing of the Microsoft offering, but I'm not sure if there's a solution. 
I'm going to try a Logitech next...

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

"Steve at fivetrees" <steve@NOSPAMTAfivetrees.com> wrote in message 
news:142dnSQfHILKcIDZRVnytA@pipex.net...
> "joep" <bungalow_steve@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
> news:1142805689.135364.303690@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >How does touch typing replace a mouse???
>>
>> You can replace almost every mouse function with a keyboard shortcut, (
>> for most programs anyway except CAD )
>>
>> You would be in awe of someone who has complete mastery of 100 or so
>> keyboard shortcuts, I know of one such person, he can open/close
>> programs /cut/paste/ jump to/access menus so blindingly fast as to make
>> me feel like a complete idiot when he watches me do the same with a
>> mouse. The mouse is a crutch for the most part, easy to use initially
>> but really slows you down in the long run as it continuously forces you
>> to move your hand off the keyboard. Learning all the keyboard shortcuts
>> is not easy though, probably as difficult as learning how to type
>> moderately fast.
>
> Heh - I only recently switched from PC-Write, a DOS editor, which I'd been 
> using since circa '84. I kept using it well into the GUI age for just 
> those reasons - my fingers knew all the shortcuts (my brain had long since 
> forgotten them - if I had to explain a shortcut, I'd have to watch my 
> fingers and relay what they were doing).
>
> And I echo the requirement for a low-power laptop suited to text 
> editing...
>
> Steve
> http://www.fivetrees.com

Same here!  Switched over to SlickEdit a few years ago.
The one thing I miss that PC-Write has that no other editor
seems to have is the ability to cut and past a block of text without
changing the spacing of text to the right of the block. That was real hand 
at times.

On 19 Mar 2006 05:35:04 -0800, WangQiang wrote:

>I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
>right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
>hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains. At
>first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but it
>taken me several steps to finish it, and I can't flip the cursor, so I
>made a utility. With it I can switch mouse buttons and flip the cursor
>immediately by pressing a hotkey. I gave it a name: "Ambidexter Mouse",
>do you want to have a try: www.ambidexter-mouse.com

I also use a mouse with both hands (mostly left) to reduce RSI . I've never
felt the need to switch buttons or flip the cursor. The first week of using
it felt very strange, then it starts to work, and after 3 months I frequently
don't even know whether I have it on the left or right.

Mat Nieuwenhoven

On 19 Mar 2006 14:14:19 -0800, "larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>
>> I understand.  But I learned a long time ago how to select chairs of
>> the right altitude, place my hands correctly, and it's no effort at
>> all to suspend them and use them in this fashion.
>
>Somewhere, an OSHA representative is reading this and having a heart
>attack.

I think they'd see the sense of it, once they could look for
themselves and see what the evidence shows them, regardless of any
prior reactions.

>> Perhaps you recall (if you were trained to write with a pencil and pen
>> as a young kid) the instruction to avoid pinching your pencil real
>> hard, so hard that you wind up reversing your knuckle somewhat.
>
>I'm not sure. I know I probably gripped my pens much too hard, because
>I haven't done a whole lot of handwriting since high school (16 years
>ago) and I STILL have a writers' callus on my right middle finger.
>
>> I don't happen to like it, as it increases my difficulties.  I've been
>> trained how to position myself and use my hands in piano playing and
>> I've been using keyboard for more years than you have been alive, some
>
>Ah, now here's something else we can argue about and really get our
>teeth into. What exactly is the relationship between piano playing and
>typing? Piano playing has four major differences from typing:
>
>1. Velocity is important in piano playing.

Yes.

>2. Maximum force is much higher in piano playing than in [modern]
>typing.

We could debate that.

>3. Piano keys are in "one and a half" dimensions vs. the distinctly
>two-dimensional keyboard. The size of the piano keyboard is also much
>larger, and this is not insignificant. A good touch typist barely moves
>the hand at all; the fingers stretch to cover the keys. This is why
>supported, fixed wrist positions work for typing. A pianist, however,
>_MUST_ move the wrists laterally along the keyboard to reach low and
>high notes.

Well, there are differences.  I didn't mean to suggest that a piano
keyboard was the same thing just because it uses the word 'keyboard'
in it.  I was just noting that it's possible that Michael and I are
agreeing for reasons of similar experiences and interests.  Not sure
of any of that, though.

>4. Few people operate a piano continuously for more than eight hours a
>day.

It was a big break-through for me when I first was able to play
ragtime more than about 20 minutes without pain in my fingers.  I
remember the very day when I was practicing and had gone on for almost
an hour and half without stop.  When I realized what I'd done, I
stopped for a moment, held out my hands and just 'listened' to the
tingle going on.  No pain, nothing.  Just pure energy and still ready
to go for more.  I realized then and there that practice is also about
endurance and is another facet of what lets you get it right.  And it
wasn't just "work up to 20 minutes" then "work up to 25 minutes" then
"work up to 30 minutes."  It was a sudden switch for me, from piss
poor endurance to a sudden realization that I could go and go and go!
What a feeling that moment was.

Eight hours?  No, I've not had the freedom to even try that one.  But
I think I might be up for the idea!

>So, what is the reason to believe that the best position for one is the
>best position for the other? These appear to be radically different
>activities.

I can't say, really.  I'm just noting the correlation without a theory
to go on.  So it's a very weak statement.  But there it is, anyway.

>> So, I'd say just use what works for you.  But I just didn't want
>> anyone to improperly take your comments as suggesting a gospel line
>> that such is the "correct way."  I know you didn't say so, but the
>
>Mutter, mutter, curmudgeonly stuff, mutter mutter :)

One of these days, I'll rise up out of my wheelchair and whack the
next whippersnapper with my cane that tells me about the "golden age"
of computing in the 1980's.  (To borrow a phrase from Asimov!)

>> >that no new computer is worth buying) is the relative scarcity of the
>> >eraser-tip style pointing device in favor of those loathsome
>> >capacitative touchpads.
>>
>> Hehe.  You mean the IBM Thinkpad thingies?  Yes, I'm used to those and
>
>Yes. Having to use a touchpad moves my hands off the keys. NONE of the
>inbuilt laptop pointing devices (even trackballs) are accurate enough
>for intensive mouse work anyway - I'd rather have the eraser tip than
>the trackpad, given that all I need it for is to access options that
>can't be reached from the keyboard due to defective programmers.

Well, I agree.  :)

>> I'd like a simple laptop using an 80386 CPU running at a few hundred
>> kHz built upon 180nm feature size technology for super low power.  DOS
>> or linux or 386BSD based tools.  Modern IC technology, small static
>
>Sounds like you want a Newton MessagePad 2100 running Linux instead of
>Newton OS :)

I want something of the size of the HP 300, nothing fancy in the
display (no color would be fine but certainly nothing more than DOS
style text font support), and able to run a month on a pair of AAs.  I
figure that with current computers in the roughly 1 billion transistor
equivalent mark and the 80386 computer I used to use in the perhaps 1
million transistor region including all the extras in the chipsets and
FPU and not just the CPU, so we're talking about maybe 100mW total --
and that is pushing it because I'm still keeping GHz speeds in that
scaling and which I simply don't need.  So if you scaled that back too
by a factor of at least 100, we'd be near the couple-mW area with
current technology fully applied to the task of low power offerings.
If I use it four hours a day, my speculation is that we're talking
about 15-40 Joules a day.  An AA has about 10k of them.  Two has 20k
Joules.  You can see that I should get some decent life out of a pair
-- perhaps a year if they don't get lazy on me and start squandering
those Joules.  But at least a month.

>> out the AA's.  The HP 300 unit I have, running Win 3.1 with a 1" hard
>
>I had a 200LX but sold it eventually; rarely used the thing.

I _used_ the 300.

>Can't argue with most of your requirements there. Those devices are
>called cellphones now. I have a Sidekick, which lets me telnet in to my
>home computers and run my compilers there (from my seat in a bar). One
>of my fairly recent articles - I forget which - was written entirely on
>the Sidekick while sitting in a bar, over a couple of sessions. Built
>the code on my Mac mini (running Linux) using telnet over GPRS.

No phones.  I want the basic computer, full keyboard, etc.  Those
darned phones with tiny keys are useless -- even assuming I'd want
them wasting power with subchannel chat with towers and communicating
my whereabouts all day long.

Jon

P.S. 
Oh... and did I mention that I want a full front panel on my
non-laptop computer, complete with access to all the MSRs, MTRRs,
selector caches, front side bus pending transactions, re-order
buffers, registration station status, etc. all accessible and
changeable from it?!!  (A trace of all that to scroll through wouldn't
be bad, either.)

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:07:35 -0500, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>> 
>... snip ...
>> 
>> I don't do much at all requiring graphics; I'm an embedded programmer
>> working on scientific and commercial instrumentation and not end user
>> consumer items where sizzle plays large.  I edit ascii files.  I do
>> some word processing (but Word 5.5 was just perfect and DOS-based.)  I
>> use command line compilation.  I get mail, send mail, and read a few
>> newsgroups.  I don't need font colors and docking windows.  I can live
>> without print preview, too.  I don't want IDEs, choices of vertical
>> and horizontal layouts, etc.  When I use a laptop, I want something
>> that I can use on a road trip without worry about having to have a
>> power cord following me around, either for the car's cigarette lighter
>> plug or the AC wall.  Batteries should go in and last for months at a
>> stretch.  Should be AA -- no fancy $100+ Li-ion stuff in funky shapes
>> and colors.  Real simple, real easy, buy-anywhere for cheap batteries.
>
>And like me, no doubt, when anyone comes by and sees a text screen
>and command lines you get accused of being a neanderthalic
>throwback.  My machines come up with a full text/command line
>window.

yup.  Same as with me.  One of the reasons I haven't gone even more
over to the dark side with NT based systems (although, I admit being
impressed with some of the core design of NT, I'm not happy with being
forced to layer win32 on top of the poor thing [I had to learn about
detailed calls into NT from DEC Alpha docs since at the time Microsoft
wouldn't do it good justice on their own.])  I boot to DOS and _may_
type WIN when I feel like it.

Jon

rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
> > rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:

> > > > Wrong idea.  Better to not use the mouse all that much, instead.  And
> > > > learn proper 10-finger typing.  Possibly use a Dworak layout and/or a
> > > > more ergonomic keyboard.

> > > How does touch typing replace a mouse???

> > It doesn't, nor did I say so.  That's why there are 4 sentences by me
> > in the above quote, and the third starts with an "And".

> It is good that you can count, but you still did not explain what you
> meant by "better to not use the mouse all that much" and then talk
> about the alternative, keyboard use.  If you are not saying you can use
> the keyboard instead of the mouse, what exactly ARE you saying???  

Two separate things, really.  That's what the 'And' is about.  They
are:

1) I suggest to reduce mouse-induced stress by reducing mouse usage.
   The way of doing that is by using the keyboard more.  Shortcuts,
   keyboard-friendly tools, that kind of thing.

2) While at it, and to make 1) more workable, it's a good idea to
   learn typing properly.   I find it absolutely amazing how many
   people, after working a computer for the best part of their work day,
   for decades, still type in the two-finger circle-find-hack system.

> Again, you restate the claim, but you don't clarify it.  If he has two
> mice, how does that preclude the need for switching the buttons? 

Two mice, two sets of settings.  Each set up correctly once, works
forever.  If the drivers are too silly to do that --- well, this is
the embedded newsgroup, after all, so get the tools out and fix the
hardware.

-- 
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.

joep wrote:
> >How does touch typing replace a mouse???
>
> You can replace almost every mouse function with a keyboard shortcut, (
> for most programs anyway except CAD )
>
> You would be in awe of someone who has complete mastery of 100 or so
> keyboard shortcuts, I know of one such person, he can open/close
> programs /cut/paste/ jump to/access menus so blindingly fast as to make
> me feel like a complete idiot when he watches me do the same with a
> mouse. The mouse is a crutch for the most part, easy to use initially
> but really slows you down in the long run as it continuously forces you
> to move your hand off the keyboard. Learning all the keyboard shortcuts
> is not easy though, probably as difficult as learning how to type
> moderately fast.

I use "shortcuts" myself.  But that is not touch typing, that is using
shortcut keystrokes.

The best thing I ever did, being lefthanded and suffering from RSI a while
ago, was buying a tablet (Wacom). Despite being lefthanded, I am "mousing"
right handed (soldering as well, as a matter of fact). I started having RSI
problems and went out and bought a track ball. After a while the problems
reoccurred and I bought a Wacom tablet. RSI problems vanished. Now I am
using both. The tablet is used for all "normal" operations while I use the
trackball for CAD work and PCB layout, which require precise positioning. It
is extremely handy to use both for this, because while the trackbal allows
me to position a component or track, I can move to a menu in no time (takes
"long" to do with a trackball). So the combination of tablet (left hand),
trackball (right hand) and keystrokes (both hands) is absolutely the fastest
way to operate my computer.

Meindert

"rickman" <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142777396.877973.6590@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:
> > WangQiang <WangQiangg@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm also a programmer, as working in front of computer day and day, my
> > > right hand is so tired and get some pain. So I tried to mouse in both
> > > hands. I find that it is really an efficient way to release pains.
> >
> > Wrong idea.  Better to not use the mouse all that much, instead.  And
> > learn proper 10-finger typing.  Possibly use a Dworak layout and/or a
> > more ergonomic keyboard.
>
> How does touch typing replace a mouse???
>
> > > At first I switched the mouse buttons in windows control panel, but
> > > it taken me several steps to finish it, and I can't flip the cursor,
> > > so I made a utility.
> >
> > Hmm... so it never occured to you just buy a second mouse, then?
>
> How would having a second mouse eliminate the need to switch the
> buttons?
>
> I also have had trouble with my right arm from so much use of the
> computer.  I also never liked the fact that when you center the typing
> part of the keyboard in front of you, the number pad pushes the right
> side out and you have to reach past that to get to the mouse.  A
> chiropractor told me that when I type, my upper arms should be hanging
> at my sides which can't happen when I have to reach out for the mouse.
> Holding your elbows away from your side as you type and mouse can give
> you stiffness and pain in your shoulders and neck.
>
> So I moved the mouse to the left side of my keyboard and learned to
> mouse leftie.  I didn't switch the buttons because initially I was just
> testing the concept.  I found it did not matter which way the buttons
> were set, so I left it the same.  It also allowed my keyboard to center
> more easily as the keypad is on the right and the mouse is on the left
> using about the same amount of space.
>
> Now anyone who uses my computer seems to think I am left handed and I
> have to explain to them I am right handed but left moused.

I have been using a mouse in the left hand for years.  Mousing doesn't take
much dexterity (please no Latin references).  Mousing left-handed leaves my
right hand free to type.

Richard Henry wrote:
> 
.... snip ...
> 
> I have been using a mouse in the left hand for years.  Mousing
> doesn't take much dexterity (please no Latin references).  Mousing
> left-handed leaves my right hand free to type.

OK, no Latin.  You are using a deisel mouse widdershins :-)

-- 
Read about the Sony stealthware that is a security leak, phones 
home, and is generally illegal in most parts of the world.  Also 
the apparent connivance of the various security software firms.
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/11/sonys_drm_rootk.html