Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
various options.

A few random questions:

- Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
(12000 RPM) option might be worth it.

- High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
been told that we should get this

- Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.

- Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
well worth it.

- High intensity light option?

- Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes

- CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?

- Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)


Thanks,

-Martin

On Feb 11, 7:36=A0pm, m <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3. =A0I wonder if anyone on this
> list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
> various options.
>
> A few random questions:
>
> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM. =A0We are going to do a lot of engraving
> work on plastic and aluminum. =A0I've been told that the super-speed
> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.

    Yes, and you might even want a speeder head (~20-30K RPM) if
you're
    doing a lot of production.  For smaller runs, the 12K head may be
fine.


> - High speed machining software option? =A0For the same reason, I've
> been told that we should get this

    More a "maybe", as even with a speeder head you may still have too
    slow a  cutter surface speed to allow fast table feeds.  Best bet
is to
    take one of your common programs, some material and cutters to
    your local HFO and run the job on a machine with and without HSM.
    That should give you a better idea of its usefulness for you.


> - Stock tool capacity is 20. =A0Optional is 24 and above.

    How many tools will you be using per job?  I do think the
    side mount changer is worth the money if you have a lot
    of small, light swarf flying about - the carousel holder can
    allow chips to build up on the tool holder tapers, and the
    spindle air blast may not be enough to dislodge them.


> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
> well worth it.

    How big are your files?  If you're mostly engraving, save your
money
    for more useful options.


> - High intensity light option?

     May introduce extra heat - again, something to check at the HFO.


> - Table options: =A0Stock has slots running along the X direction.
> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes

    Depends on your fixturing methods, might be worthwhile if you
    swap in complete subplates that can register in the holes.


> - CAM: =A0We are using Solidworks 2009: =A0SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?

    I can't answer that, as I'm a SmartCAM user, but I know that a lot
    of people love SmartCAM for its ease of use.  If you're starting
fresh,
    and don't have the CAM investment in your people yet, check it
out:

        http://www.smartcamcnc.com/     [just a happy customer]


> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)

     If you're mostly engraving, neither is needed.  Perhaps you can
give
     us a better idea of the range of work/materials you expect to
run.

    HTH,
           Toolpost


> Thanks,
>
> -Martin

On Feb 11, 9:44=A0pm, Toolpost <toolp...@hotmail.com> wrote:


Argh!  Friggin' formatting!


On Feb 11, 7:36 pm, m <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
> list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
> various options.

> A few random questions:

> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
> work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.

    Yes, and you might even want a speeder head (~20-30K RPM)
    if you're doing a lot of production.  For smaller runs, the 12K
    head may be fine.


> - High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
> been told that we should get this

    More a "maybe", as even with a speeder head you may still have
    too slow a  cutter surface speed to allow fast table feeds.  Best
    bet is to take one of your common programs, some material and
    cutters to your local HFO and run the job on a machine with and
    without HSM.  That should give you a better idea of its usefulness
    for you.


> - Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.

    How many tools will you be using per job?  I do think the
    side mount changer is worth the money if you have a lot
    of small, light swarf flying about - the carousel holder can
    allow chips to build up on the tool holder tapers, and the
    spindle air blast may not be enough to dislodge them.


> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
> well worth it.

    How big are your files?  If you're mostly engraving, save your
    money for more useful options.


> - High intensity light option?

     May introduce extra heat - again, something to check at the HFO.


> - Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes

    Depends on your fixturing methods, might be worthwhile if you
    swap in complete subplates that can register in the holes.


> - CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?

    I can't answer that, as I'm a SmartCAM user, but I know that a
    lot of people love SmartCAM for its ease of use.  If you're
    starting fresh, and don't have the CAM investment in your
    people yet, check it out:

        http://www.smartcamcnc.com/     [just a happy customer]


> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)

     If you're mostly engraving, neither is needed.  Perhaps you
     can give us a better idea of the range of work/materials you
     expect to run.

    HTH,
           Toolpost

>
> > Thanks,
>
> > -Martin

m wrote:
> Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
> list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
> various options.
> 
> A few random questions:

Martin:

	We have a VF6, basically the same thing, just a bigger table.


> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
> work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.

	Our machine is 7,500 max, and there have been a LOT of times I wish it 
had been higher.  Small tools need to spin fast, and engraving tools 
are some of the smallest.


> - High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
> been told that we should get this

	We don't have this option.  But if you'll be doing any production 3D 
profiling, I'd say this option would pay for itself in short order.

> 
> - Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.

	We occasionally use a full carousel.  Plus some shops like to leave 
commonly used tools in the machine.  So, more is better - up to a point.

> 
> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
> well worth it.

	We have 16MB, and it's rarely that we've needed more, but we don't do 
a lot of 3D surfacing mold work.  If we did we'd need even MORE memory.

> 
> - High intensity light option?

	What's that?  When the machine's running you can't see anything anyway 
due to the coolant splashing all over.  And when the machine is 
stopped, the light never seems to be where you want it.  Flashlights 
work good up close.  <g>

> 
> - Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes

	We don't have that, but it sounds convenient.  And since you're not 
doing really large heavy work the possible weakening of the table 
probably won't enter in the picture.

> 
> - CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?

	If you're already using Solidworks, then a CAM system that runs inside 
of Solidworks might make sense.  You've got to weigh that against 
easily being able to hire MasterCam programmers off the street.

> 
> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)

	We have both.  And even if you don't use large through coolant insert 
drills, a lot of modern insert end mills have coolant through provision 
that helps to blow chips off the inserts.  And you can get small drills 
with coolant through holes.

	Well I'm not sure how useful my answers were, it certainly made me 
sound like a Haas salesman, eh?  But in my opinion, it's better to have 
an option and not often use it, than to NOT have it and NEED it.

	And some of these options get REAL expensive to add later, if the type 
of work you do happens to change.
	This is a buyers market right now, you should be able to get a good 
deal from your machine dealer.  I'd try to have them include a bunch of 
40 taper tooling, collets, face mills, etc.

-- 
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"m" <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:773f95b4-6a86-482c-8049-5f9b25c8d213@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
> list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
> various options.
>
> A few random questions:
>
> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
> work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.

YES!


>
> - High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
> been told that we should get this

YES!


>
> - Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.

24!!


>
> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
> well worth it.

YES!!


>
> - High intensity light option?

YES! A must.


>
> - Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes
>
> - CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>
> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Martin

Make sure you get a few Haas shirts. The black ones are sweet. 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:36:12 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
>list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
>various options.
>
>A few random questions:
>
>- Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
>work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
>(12000 RPM) option might be worth it.
>
>- High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
>been told that we should get this
>
>- Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.
>
>- Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
>well worth it.
>
>- High intensity light option?
>
>- Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
>Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes
>
>- CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>
>- Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Martin

  How much might any of this impact resale value or
demand for a used machine?
-- 
Cliff

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 02:08:52 -0500, "vinny" <vinny@REMOVEvp3d.net>
wrote:

>
>"m" <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message 
>news:773f95b4-6a86-482c-8049-5f9b25c8d213@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>> Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
>> list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
>> various options.
>>
>> A few random questions:
>>
>> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
>> work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
>> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.
>
>YES!
>
>
>>
>> - High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
>> been told that we should get this
>
>YES!
>
>
>>
>> - Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.
>
>24!!
>
>
>>
>> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
>> well worth it.
>
>YES!!
>
>
>>
>> - High intensity light option?
>
>YES! A must.
>
>
>>
>> - Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
>> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes
>>
>> - CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>>
>> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Martin
>
>Make sure you get a few Haas shirts. The black ones are sweet. 
>

But get the ones with the small Hass emblem over the left side.  The
ones with the big one center of mass make you feel like you are wearing
a target.

Gunner, with a drawer full

"vinny" <vinny@REMOVEvp3d.net> wrote in message 
news:gn0hu2$rhl$1@solani.org...
>
> "m" <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:773f95b4-6a86-482c-8049-5f9b25c8d213@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>> Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
>> list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
>> various options.
>>
>> A few random questions:
>>
>> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
>> work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
>> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.
>
> YES!
>
>
>>
>> - High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
>> been told that we should get this
>
> YES!
>
>
>>
>> - Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.
>
> 24!!
>
>
>>
>> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
>> well worth it.
>
> YES!!
>
>
>>
>> - High intensity light option?
>
> YES! A must.
>
>
>>
>> - Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
>> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes
>>
>> - CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>>
>> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Martin
>
> Make sure you get a few Haas shirts. The black ones are sweet.
>
    They never offered me a shirt when I bought a TM1 (in Scotland) - make 
sure you get yours.
    MK

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:36:12 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
>list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
>various options.
>
>A few random questions:
>
>- Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
>work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
>(12000 RPM) option might be worth it.
>
>- High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
>been told that we should get this
>
>- Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.
>
>- Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
>well worth it.
>
>- High intensity light option?
>
>- Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
>Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes
>
>- CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>
>- Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Martin

We do a lot of engraving and, depending on the type of graphic, font,
etc. you will want the 16Mb memory. We have the 7000 rpm spindle and I
do wish it was faster but I don't know if the 20-30k rpm is necessary.
Most of our engrave is on a flat surface .010 deep, 7000 rpm, F30.
using a 3/16, 90 deg, single edge, carbide engraving tool and I cap
tiny radius on the end of it to keep it from chipping to easily.
Programmable coolant is just more to go wrong with the machine in my
opinion (we keep our machines until they are scrap). Ours came with a
4 line manifold that has served us just fine.
High intensity light could be of value but a 2nd flood light would be
just as handy.
Tool carousel depends on your needs. Sometimes I wish we had more but
most times 20 is just fine......we all wish we had more sometimes
though.

Thanks for all the answers.  As I suspected, most of these options are
desirable.  Some have no impact because you can easily get them after
the fact (like memory expansion) while others are impossible to
retrofit later (larger tool changer).  It seems that I am going to go
for a super-speed with pretty much all the options that you can't
easily add later on.

This will be our first machine, BTW, so we have zero experience.  I
owned an old series 1 Bridgeport CNC about 20 years ago, but that's
the extent of it.

We are also considering moving up to a VF3 or VF5 due to the potential
to need a larger work envelope in the future.  It's an absolute
unknown and possibly one of those things that you kick yourself for
later on if you make the wrong decision.  The budget is not unlimited,
so we can't keep pushing upscale at will.

In terms of work, today we have three basic types of parts to deal
with:  cutting and engraving polycarbonate, one sided machining of
aluminum plate (mostly lots of long thin slots --about 0.050 wide by
0.100 deep-- and drilled and tapped holes) and three sided machining
of smaller aluminum parts.  The aluminum plate is what could consume
most of the available work envelope.  If we need to make large parts
it could require up to four setups on a VF-2.  We are not high volume
so this isn't a problem, but it can be a pain if you want to start a
program and have the part finished overnight.

Thanks,

-Martin

On Feb 12, 1:10=A0pm, m <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the answers. =A0As I suspected, most of these options are
> desirable. =A0Some have no impact because you can easily get them after
> the fact (like memory expansion) while others are impossible to
> retrofit later (larger tool changer). =A0It seems that I am going to go
> for a super-speed with pretty much all the options that you can't
> easily add later on.
>
> This will be our first machine, BTW, so we have zero experience. =A0I
> owned an old series 1 Bridgeport CNC about 20 years ago, but that's
> the extent of it.
>
> We are also considering moving up to a VF3 or VF5 due to the potential
> to need a larger work envelope in the future. =A0It's an absolute
> unknown and possibly one of those things that you kick yourself for
> later on if you make the wrong decision. =A0The budget is not unlimited,
> so we can't keep pushing upscale at will.
>
> In terms of work, today we have three basic types of parts to deal
> with: =A0cutting and engraving polycarbonate, one sided machining of
> aluminum plate (mostly lots of long thin slots --about 0.050 wide by
> 0.100 deep-- and drilled and tapped holes) and three sided machining
> of smaller aluminum parts. =A0The aluminum plate is what could consume
> most of the available work envelope. =A0If we need to make large parts
> it could require up to four setups on a VF-2. =A0We are not high volume
> so this isn't a problem, but it can be a pain if you want to start a
> program and have the part finished overnight.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Martin

If you are doing mostly aluminum, you usually need more RPM than you
have. Don't skimp.
Same for small parts, small cutters.

A Robodrill can be had up to 27" in X. Lighning fast.

m wrote:

> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
> work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.

Go with the higher RPM, you will regret not having it.

> - High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
> been told that we should get this

For 3D surfacing, small movements, you will want this option, but they 
give you a 'trial' with all new machines, so it's not something you have 
to buy right out. You can test it first then turn it on later if you want.

> - Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.

Do you need 20 or 24+ tools?

> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
> well worth it.

DEFIANTLY! You will kick yourself in the ass with only 1MB.. Drip 
feeding really sucks..

> - High intensity light option?

Nah, plus you can always upgrade/install more lights if you want.

> - Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes

We made a subplate for one of our VF-2's.. I guess having slots going 
both ways would be nice, but you could always build your own subplates..

> - CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?

age old question there.. don't think anyone can answer that for you.. 
Pick one ;)


> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)


Programmable coolant is nice if you have a lot of different length tools 
in the same program.. Through spindle coolant all depends on the type of 
tooling you have..

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:38:58 -0500, tnik <kortjester@gmail.com> wrote:

>> - CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>
>age old question there.. don't think anyone can answer that for you.. 
>Pick one ;)

  Fonts?
-- 
Cliff

> Go with the higher RPM, you will regret not having it.

This seems to be the consensus so far.  The Haas rep mentioned that
you could also get a third party gearbox tool that would give you
somewhere in the 3 or 5 to 1 ratio.  Not sure I like the idea.

> Do you need 20 or 24+ tools?

I don't know.  Part of the argument also seems to focus on the fact
that the vertical carrusel (24+ tools) might reduce the probability of
getting chips on the tool tapers.  I saw a TM-2 the other day and the
top of the tool changer was covered with chips.

> > - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
> > well worth it.
>
> DEFIANTLY! You will kick yourself in the ass with only 1MB.. Drip
> feeding really sucks..

Yup, saw that on the TM-2.  It locks up your computer.  Also learned
that you could run off a USB stick, but the issue is that you can't
stop and resume from where you left off, it has to start from square
one.

> We made a subplate for one of our VF-2's.. I guess having slots going
> both ways would be nice, but you could always build your own subplates..

We are already planning on the subplate approach.  It would seem that
with this approach a table with xy slots might be overkill.

-Martin

> >> - CAM: =A0We are using Solidworks 2009: =A0SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>
> >age old question there.. don't think anyone can answer that for you..
> >Pick one ;)
>
> =A0 Fonts?

Is there an issue with fonts?

-Martin

m wrote:

>> DEFIANTLY! You will kick yourself in the ass with only 1MB.. Drip
>> feeding really sucks..

> Yup, saw that on the TM-2.  It locks up your computer.  Also learned
> that you could run off a USB stick, but the issue is that you can't
> stop and resume from where you left off, it has to start from square
> one.

16MB memory isn't very much. Depending on your work you may be better
off investing a pittance in a decent DNC setup.

Slave computers are a dime a dozen and proper DNC software can start and
stop anywhere in a program.

-- 
Black Dragon

Q:	Why did the astrophysicist order three hamburgers?
A:	Because he was hungry.

m wrote:

>> >> - CAM: �We are using Solidworks 2009: �SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?

>> >age old question there.. don't think anyone can answer that for you..
>> >Pick one ;)

>> � Fonts?

> Is there an issue with fonts?

Not an issue at all with Mastercam. Don't know about Solidcam but I doubt 
fonts are a problem in Soildworks so it's unlikely.

-- 
Black Dragon

Q:	Why did the astrophysicist order three hamburgers?
A:	Because he was hungry.

Black Dragon wrote:
> m wrote:
> 
>>> DEFIANTLY! You will kick yourself in the ass with only 1MB.. Drip
>>> feeding really sucks..
> 
>> Yup, saw that on the TM-2.  It locks up your computer.  Also learned
>> that you could run off a USB stick, but the issue is that you can't
>> stop and resume from where you left off, it has to start from square
>> one.
> 
> 16MB memory isn't very much. Depending on your work you may be better
> off investing a pittance in a decent DNC setup.

Or just get the Ethernet/Hard Drive option.
Damn, Haas is getting to what Fidia had back in 1994! :)


> 
> Slave computers are a dime a dozen and proper DNC software can start and
> stop anywhere in a program.
> 

Steve Mackay wrote:

> Black Dragon wrote:
>> m wrote:

>>>> DEFIANTLY! You will kick yourself in the ass with only 1MB.. Drip
>>>> feeding really sucks..

>>> Yup, saw that on the TM-2.  It locks up your computer.  Also learned
>>> that you could run off a USB stick, but the issue is that you can't
>>> stop and resume from where you left off, it has to start from square
>>> one.

>> 16MB memory isn't very much. Depending on your work you may be better
>> off investing a pittance in a decent DNC setup.

> Or just get the Ethernet/Hard Drive option.

Fanuc data servers available on Haas machines? A Fadal I use has one, as
does the Roku-Roku of course. :)

-- 
Black Dragon

psychologist, n:
	Someone who watches everyone else when an attractive woman walks
	into a room.

"Black Dragon" <bd@nomail.invalid> wrote in message 
news:gn4vvn$1i06$1@bdhi.local...
> Steve Mackay wrote:
>
>> Black Dragon wrote:
>>> m wrote:
>
>>>>> DEFIANTLY! You will kick yourself in the ass with only 1MB.. Drip
>>>>> feeding really sucks..
>
>>>> Yup, saw that on the TM-2.  It locks up your computer.  Also learned
>>>> that you could run off a USB stick, but the issue is that you can't
>>>> stop and resume from where you left off, it has to start from square
>>>> one.
>
>>> 16MB memory isn't very much. Depending on your work you may be better
>>> off investing a pittance in a decent DNC setup.
>
>> Or just get the Ethernet/Hard Drive option.
>
> Fanuc data servers available on Haas machines?

No but HAAS offers one.

>A Fadal I use has one,

0i or 18i?
Run the thing from the card.....

>as
> does the Roku-Roku of course. :)

Duh.
LOL

>
> psychologist, n:
> Someone who watches everyone else when an attractive woman walks
> into a room.

Or just curious..
You can learn a lot by watching.

JC 

> 16MB memory isn't very much. Depending on your work you may be better
> off investing a pittance in a decent DNC setup.


What's DNC?

-Martin

> > Slave computers are a dime a dozen

True enough.  Personally, I don't understand why Haas wants so much
money for a 16MB upgrade.  We manufacture electronic products.  We buy
1 GIGABYTE flash chips for about $12 a piece!

-Martin

m wrote:
> 
> Personally, I don't understand why Haas wants so much
> money for a 16MB upgrade.  

Martin:

	That's because of the three magic letters: $$$-CNC-$$$.

-- 
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

m wrote:
>> 16MB memory isn't very much. Depending on your work you may be better
>> off investing a pittance in a decent DNC setup.
> 
> 
> What's DNC?

Martin:

=====================================================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Numerical_Control

Direct Numerical Control, also known as Distributed Numerical Control, 
(both DNC) is a common manufacturing term for networking CNC machine 
tools. On some CNC machine controllers, the available memory is too 
small to contain the machining program (for example machining complex 
surfaces), so in this case the program is stored in a separate computer 
and sent Direct to the machine, one block at a time. If the computer is 
connected to a number of machines it can Distribute programs to 
different machines as required. Usually, the manufacturer of the 
control provides suitable DNC software. However, if this provision is 
not possible, some software companies provide DNC applications that 
fulfill the purpose.
=====================================================================

	That might illuminate BD's comment: "Slave computers are a dime a 
dozen and proper DNC software can start and stop anywhere in a program."

-- 
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Feb 11, 7:36=A0pm, m <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM. =A0We are going to do a lot of engraving
> work on plastic and aluminum. =A0I've been told that the super-speed
> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.
>

Martin,
Check out this 15,000 to 40,000 RPM Air Spindle that can be used in
the Tool Changer. It is designed as a kit for HASS mills. See the
video at this site.
www.bryanmachine.com

Call Steve Bryan for details. His number is on the site.

Good Luck,
Jim

John R. Carroll wrote:

>> Steve Mackay wrote:

>>> Or just get the Ethernet/Hard Drive option.

>> Fanuc data servers available on Haas machines?

> No but HAAS offers one.

>>A Fadal I use has one,

> 0i or 18i?

18i

> Run the thing from the card.....

Might as well use floppy disks then.

I disdain using external devices. Machine shops are extremely hostile
environments for electronic devices (floppy disks, usb flash drives, 
wireless networking, etc) and the more that can be eliminated via hard 
wiring via Ethernet and/or RS232 is directly proportional to reliability 
over time. In my rather limited 30 years of experience anyway. ;)

-- 
Black Dragon

Hanlon's Razor:
	Never attribute to malice
	that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

m wrote:

>> > Slave computers are a dime a dozen

> True enough.  Personally, I don't understand why Haas wants so much
> money for a 16MB upgrade.

The same reason Fadal charges $1000 for a fucking $10 floppy drive with
a couple pin outs switched. 

Because fools keep buying the stuff at those prices, that why.

-- 
Black Dragon

Hanlon's Razor:
	Never attribute to malice
	that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:22:09 -0800 (PST), JRWheels <jrwheels16@aol.com> wrote:

>Air Spindle

  Air costs a lot.
-- 
Cliff

Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in
news:n1ndp4dsgri0k818mj31v0pog3371ak6rd@4ax.com: 

> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:22:09 -0800 (PST), JRWheels
> <jrwheels16@aol.com> wrote: 
> 
>>Air Spindle
> 
>   Air costs a lot.

So does machine time.

-- 

Dan

CNC Videos - <http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d>

"Black Dragon" <bd@nomail.invalid> wrote in message 
news:gn6hv9$2c0l$1@bdhi.local...
> John R. Carroll wrote:
>
>>> Steve Mackay wrote:
>
>>>> Or just get the Ethernet/Hard Drive option.
>
>>> Fanuc data servers available on Haas machines?
>
>> No but HAAS offers one.
>
>>>A Fadal I use has one,
>
>> 0i or 18i?
>
> 18i
>
>> Run the thing from the card.....
>
> Might as well use floppy disks then.
>
> I disdain using external devices. Machine shops are extremely hostile
> environments for electronic devices (floppy disks, usb flash drives,
> wireless networking, etc) and the more that can be eliminated via hard
> wiring via Ethernet and/or RS232 is directly proportional to reliability
> over time. In my rather limited 30 years of experience anyway. ;)

The FANUC Dataserver option on a Fadal with an F18i is a PCMCIA card slotted 
in the back of the machine.
You can remove it and run it from the slot in the pendant. You can use the 
cards that are for sale in the big box stores but the good ones are 
purchased from Sandisk and they aren't the same.

Siemens, OTOH uses and actual hard disk drive on their 840D and when they 
fail ( and the things do fail) it takes out your machine.
The PLC and everything else is on the drive.
What a Siemens owner must then do is purchase new hardware from the 
manufacturer - made as an image from the original data. That is something a 
user generally can't do.

JC 

"m" <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:773f95b4-6a86-482c-8049-5f9b25c8d213@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
> list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
> various options.
>
> A few random questions:
>
> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM.  We are going to do a lot of engraving
> work on plastic and aluminum.  I've been told that the super-speed
> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.
>
> - High speed machining software option?  For the same reason, I've
> been told that we should get this
>
> - Stock tool capacity is 20.  Optional is 24 and above.
>
> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
> well worth it.
>
> - High intensity light option?
>
> - Table options:  Stock has slots running along the X direction.
> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes
>
> - CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>
> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Martin

We have several VF3's the one I use is almost a year old it has the 7500 RPM 
spindle. I have engraved steel, brass and aluminum. I mostly run 6,000 rpm 
and the machine has a default of 15. inch feed in it's engraving program. I 
have used 20" feed in steel with .005 depth of cut. looked fine to me. I 
used a 1/16 diameter carbide ball end mill. The higher speeds are nice and 
they use it a lot on the other machines that run production. I cut mostly 
steel and make fixtures and tooling.

I think the higher speed with the higher rapids is a good idea. If the 
rapids seem to fast for you, you can set the default to a lower speed. Our 
foreman set max rapids at 50%.

We have the 24 tool changer and several times needed more tools than that. I 
would suggest you get as many tools as you could. You don't have to use all 
of them, but you can't use them if you don't have them.

We got the programmable nozzle for coolant which is a real nice feature. 
Also the USB port is nice to save programs on in addition to uploading to a 
server. Having a program on my USB drive saved me a couple of times, when 
someone deleted an upload they didn't think we needed any longer.

   Also all the tables were not flat when new on delivery. So we milled off 
..003 and got the tables flat all the way across. This was to improve 
accuracy for the 4th axis.

Richard W.

Just throwing in my two cents worth, all good answers and valid
points. I have a 2001 VF-0E with 1mb memory, side mount tool changer
and 10K spindle. I run mold bases with a laptop to DNC programs 4 to
6mb files to the controller.

Spindles above 15K require tool balancing, that at 10 and 12K is not
as critical. 12K is a good way to go, I do a fair amount of engraving
and the tool makes a big difference as well. Take a look at the Onsrun
from J&L, I am getting good results. Once you get into ceramic
bearings 15K+, any hard hit has the potential to junk the spindle. As
a beginner, it is not a matter of if!

The 24 tool side mount tool changer has been much more reliable than
the umbrella styles I have worked with. If you have hard water the
tool tray will eventually rot out with electrolysis. Get to know your
Water and Ice stores or consider an RO system. I have the eight tools
I use most loaded in my side mount and touched off ready to go, so
many of my programs can be run with the addition of drills or form
cutters and setting the work offset.

Through spindle works well with deep hole drilling, but is generally
not worth the added expense of tools, tool holders and maintenance.
Programmable coolant will work great for the majority of machining.

High speed machining should be considered for 3-axis mold geometry
small cuts at elevated feed rates. Instead of taking 40 blocks at a
time the controller takes 120, more look ahead means less stutter when
the code is flying across the screen.

The high intensity lights are great for set up and examination of the
work.

The table slots are typical, I think the threaded holes are metric and
work great with subsystems like Chick. I have an aluminum plate with
tapped holes and dowels pin holes to locate plate work and can run
three Kurt 3600V vises. The VF-3 I have run can hold five vises tight
and the VF-4 SS ran with six no problem. Most rapids are fast enough
to cover the table faster than you want to think about, use the 25%
and 50% Rapid Override buttons until you get use to it.

Last I checked, most of these options are available as a C or D
package, and I would get a VF-4 over the VF-3 for ten extra inches on
the table and only a few dollars more :) You are marrying this
machine, and will have to live with it for a while. Get the things you
might need and pass on the rest that you just won't use.

All software has its pluses and minuses, I am using Camworks which
will engrave out of the True Type fonts or can do single point text
from the Solidworks sketch. I have used stand alone Cam packages and
am getting back into Mastercam for an upcoming job. So whatever the
sales people tell you it is not a Star Trek replicator. Invest in the
software and training. Our Phoenix area Haas dealer holds free mill
training classes, and the local community college technical classes
and resellers are a great resource.

Just my humble opinion. Good luck. JL


On Feb 11, 5:36=A0pm, m <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3. =A0I wonder if anyone on this
> list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
> various options.
>
> A few random questions:
>
> - Stock max speed is 7500 RPM. =A0We are going to do a lot of engraving
> work on plastic and aluminum. =A0I've been told that the super-speed
> (12000 RPM) option might be worth it.
>
> - High speed machining software option? =A0For the same reason, I've
> been told that we should get this
>
> - Stock tool capacity is 20. =A0Optional is 24 and above.
>
> - Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
> well worth it.
>
> - High intensity light option?
>
> - Table options: =A0Stock has slots running along the X direction.
> Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes
>
> - CAM: =A0We are using Solidworks 2009: =A0SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?
>
> - Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Martin

JL wrote:
> Just throwing in my two cents worth, all good answers and valid
> points. I have a 2001 VF-0E with 1mb memory, side mount tool changer
> and 10K spindle. 

JL:

	I'm impressed.  I don't recall seeing you post before, I personally 
think you would be a welcome addition to the group.

-- 
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

John R. Carroll wrote:


> "Black Dragon" <bd@nomail.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:gn6hv9$2c0l$1@bdhi.local...
>> John R. Carroll wrote:

>>>> Steve Mackay wrote:

>>>>> Or just get the Ethernet/Hard Drive option.

>>>> Fanuc data servers available on Haas machines?

>>> No but HAAS offers one.

>>>>A Fadal I use has one,

>>> 0i or 18i?

>> 18i

>>> Run the thing from the card.....

>> Might as well use floppy disks then.

>> I disdain using external devices. Machine shops are extremely hostile
>> environments for electronic devices (floppy disks, usb flash drives,
>> wireless networking, etc) and the more that can be eliminated via hard
>> wiring via Ethernet and/or RS232 is directly proportional to reliability
>> over time. In my rather limited 30 years of experience anyway. ;)

> The FANUC Dataserver option on a Fadal with an F18i is a PCMCIA card slotted 
> in the back of the machine.
> You can remove it and run it from the slot in the pendant. You can use the 
> cards that are for sale in the big box stores but the good ones are 
> purchased from Sandisk and they aren't the same.

A CompactFlash card is in the slot in the data server in the back, same 
as the 16i on the Roku-Roku.

I also have a PCMCIA adapter with a CompactFlash card in it to plug into
the slot in the front and the only thing I've used it for is backups.

My son worked at a shop that has a Fadal with an 0i control and they use 
the PCMCIA card exclusively. They wouldn't for long if I worked there. I
guarantee you if I used a machine with a PCMCIA card / adapter sticking 
out the front of the control I'd eventually bump it with my hand or arm 
and break the fucking thing.

> Siemens, OTOH uses and actual hard disk drive on their 840D and when they 
> fail ( and the things do fail) it takes out your machine.
> The PLC and everything else is on the drive.

Same as the Tiger 5 on the Sharnoa I use. Except there's a PC in the
cabinet and we have disk images, spare drives and computer parts for
when the eventual happens. I'm the only person in the place that has any
knowledge of the Windows for Workgroups 3.11 running on it though. :)

-- 
Black Dragon

QOTD:
	"To hell with patience, I'm gonna kill me something!"

On 14 Feb 2009 17:14:58 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:

>Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in
>news:n1ndp4dsgri0k818mj31v0pog3371ak6rd@4ax.com: 
>
>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:22:09 -0800 (PST), JRWheels
>> <jrwheels16@aol.com> wrote: 
>> 
>>>Air Spindle
>> 
>>   Air costs a lot.
>
>So does machine time.

  So buy a machine with a faster spindle in the first place.
-- 
Cliff

Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in news:ig5hp4l31a4o9he799dt2jq57is5f15j9d@
4ax.com:

> On 14 Feb 2009 17:14:58 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>>Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in
>>news:n1ndp4dsgri0k818mj31v0pog3371ak6rd@4ax.com: 
>>
>>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:22:09 -0800 (PST), JRWheels
>>> <jrwheels16@aol.com> wrote: 
>>> 
>>>>Air Spindle
>>> 
>>>   Air costs a lot.
>>
>>So does machine time.
> 
>   So buy a machine with a faster spindle in the first place.

To engrave plastic? Doesn't seem like a judicious use of funds to me.

-- 

Dan

CNC Videos - <http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d>

On 16 Feb 2009 05:46:13 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:

>Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in news:ig5hp4l31a4o9he799dt2jq57is5f15j9d@
>4ax.com:
>
>> On 14 Feb 2009 17:14:58 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>>>Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in
>>>news:n1ndp4dsgri0k818mj31v0pog3371ak6rd@4ax.com: 
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:22:09 -0800 (PST), JRWheels
>>>> <jrwheels16@aol.com> wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>>>Air Spindle
>>>> 
>>>>   Air costs a lot.
>>>
>>>So does machine time.
>> 
>>   So buy a machine with a faster spindle in the first place.
>
>To engrave plastic? Doesn't seem like a judicious use of funds to me.

  And spending on that Haas does? As does restricting the machine
to "engraving plastics only"?
__ 
Cliff

> Direct Numerical Control, also known as Distributed Numerical Control,

Thank you,

-Martin

JL,

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with these
machines.  Lots of useful data to ponder.

Are you suggesting that if you had to choose between the Super-Speed
option and a larger machine you'd go for a larger machine?

Also, I am starting to think that the option for the X and Y slots on
the table might not be worth it.  After all, it seems that most of the
time one would use a fixture or plate of some sort to hold the work
down.

Should I be considering any other manufacturer other than Haas at this
point?  I am somewhat convinced to go with them due to proximity (we
are in Southern California) and reputation.  Westec is coming-
up...should I wait and look at some other options?  We do need the
machine relatively soon...I just don't want to make a mistake.  As you
said, you sort of marry these things.

-Martin

m wrote:

>   Westec is coming-
> up...should I wait and look at some other options?  We do need the
> machine relatively soon...

Martin:

	You can sometimes get good deals on machines that were running in a 
show like Westec.  You're kind of limited by the options the particular 
display machine has though.

	Fadals are in roughly the same price range (and in Calif.).  My 
personal preference would be for a comparable Haas if I had to choose 
between the two.  Other's mileage may vary.

-- 
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:58:20 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Should I be considering any other manufacturer other than Haas at this
>point?

  If it's just for engraving on plastics what about some of the low-cost
"desktop"/hobby-class machines?
-- 
Cliff

> =A0 If it's just for engraving on plastics what about some of the low-cos=
t
> "desktop"/hobby-class machines?

You misunderstood.  Engraving plastics is just one aspect of what we
have to do.  Most of the work will be in machining aluminum parts.

-Martin

Hey Martin,

I started running Haas machines about twelve years ago. I have
programmed for Fadal, Hurco and I still deal with Anilam on a regular
basis. Just like the software all machines have their quirks. Usually,
it is the little things like the way they manage work and tool offsets
or throwing in a non-standard G-code if you are writing programs by
hand at the controller. Westec is a great venue to check out all the
machine tools and get a real feel for features and foot prints. If you
can wait, take a look at what is out there. The similarities are
greater than the differences. Our Phoenix HFO usually runs a Westec
special to boost sales, I am sure other manufacturer's do to. Don't
hesitate to hammer them for discounts or an upgrade package. . If you
haven't already, check with your reseller on delivery times. If it is
a popular machine it may be 6 - 8 weeks before it is sitting on your
floor. Figure a week to power up and get a tech to do the set up and
run in.

I was contracted by a company here in Phoenix to set up a fourth axis
machine about two years ago. The XY threaded / slotted table had the
advantage of about four extra inches in Z, so the rotary had a little
extra breathing room. A Chick subsystem was chosen and could mount
directly to the XY table. You are correct that most machines get a sub-
plate / universal tooling plate / sacrificial plate, I have what
started out as a three inch thick piece of 7075 bolted to my table.
After eight years it is getting to 2 3/4" with a few oops gouges. The
only time I take the plate off is when I need the extra clearance for
a tall part or about once a year to check for electrolysis and re-
grease the table. If you go with the VF-3 or larger you can count on
the plate staying on there for quite some time. Marine grease is a
must, and a big flycutter to keep it pretty.

For $5K more I would opt for the VF-4 over the VF-3 and with a package
deal get the extra goodies - probably another $5K. 12K spindle would
be nice, I have no problems living with my 10K. If I could budget I
would get a a larger machine with the SS option, same reason I opted
for the VF-0E at the time I bought mine. I wanted the 10K direct drive
spindle, and the 30 inch X table. At the time it was $5,000 more than
a VF-0 and to me a no-brainer. The VF-0E was really the same platform
as the  VF-2, the VF-2 at the time had the geared head. The VF-0 faded
over time into the more common VF-2.  For me the smaller footprint and
big on options was the better choice. If you go with the VF-2 you can
get three vises and most plate work on the table, the VF-4 will hold
six vises and you won't have to open the end windows and move the part
around if you do run a large piece.  Occasionally that four extra
inches in Y on the VF-3 / 4 would come in handy.

Granted we are talking about almost $20K difference between the VF-2
and VF-4. If you don't have a headache yet, what do you have in the
way of tools, toolholders, and vises. The toolholders at say $100 a
pop and pull studs at $20 a pop will set you back a decent chunk of
change. What ever you have, you can always use one more. You should
budget around $5K if you do not already have the basics in house.
Tooling preferences would be a good future topic.

If you have any doubts the VF-2 10K spindle, side mount tool changer
and add on package will be a great entry level machine and leave room
in the budget to tool up and get going. If you are rolling the
software into this budget count on between $6000 and $10000, still
another topic. If you think you will grow out of the VF-2 in 6-12
months pull the trigger on a bigger machine. Production means more
vises on the table, and less open door time. One last if, if you are
looking one to two years out at adding another machine anyway by then
you will know if you need the bigger machine or can add on another /
more 2's.

Just a quick comment on the forty tool side mount. It is a larger
circle that doesn't turn any faster than the 25, so your Cam post
needs to index to the next tool way before it is needed. I have a
handful of programs that use all 25 slots, most run at 12-18. And, the
USB port is nice for the transfer, I have run programs from the USB
flash drive - if it gets removed or bumped it is not a good thing,
falls into the not a safe practice.

It really is a big purchase, a lot to consider, worth the time to get
opinions and see what is out there. Do the math and one will fall out
as the best choice.  Sorry for rambling, this thread is getting kind
of long, trying not to repeat to much of what has already posted. If
this topic goes to far into left field drop me an email. Glad to help.
JL


On Feb 16, 2:58=A0pm, m <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JL,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with these
> machines. =A0Lots of useful data to ponder.
>
> Are you suggesting that if you had to choose between the Super-Speed
> option and a larger machine you'd go for a larger machine?
>
> Also, I am starting to think that the option for the X and Y slots on
> the table might not be worth it. =A0After all, it seems that most of the
> time one would use a fixture or plate of some sort to hold the work
> down.
>
> Should I be considering any other manufacturer other than Haas at this
> point? =A0I am somewhat convinced to go with them due to proximity (we
> are in Southern California) and reputation. =A0Westec is coming-
> up...should I wait and look at some other options? =A0We do need the
> machine relatively soon...I just don't want to make a mistake. =A0As you
> said, you sort of marry these things.
>
> -Martin

On Feb 16, 7:21=A0pm, JL <axthr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Martin,
>
> I started running Haas machines about twelve years ago. I have
> programmed for Fadal, Hurco and I still deal with Anilam on a regular
> basis. Just like the software all machines have their quirks. Usually,
> it is the little things like the way they manage work and tool offsets
> or throwing in a non-standard G-code if you are writing programs by
> hand at the controller. Westec is a great venue to check out all the
> machine tools and get a real feel for features and foot prints. If you
> can wait, take a look at what is out there. The similarities are
> greater than the differences. Our Phoenix HFO usually runs a Westec
> special to boost sales, I am sure other manufacturer's do to. Don't
> hesitate to hammer them for discounts or an upgrade package. . If you
> haven't already, check with your reseller on delivery times. If it is
> a popular machine it may be 6 - 8 weeks before it is sitting on your
> floor. Figure a week to power up and get a tech to do the set up and
> run in.
>
> I was contracted by a company here in Phoenix to set up a fourth axis
> machine about two years ago. The XY threaded / slotted table had the
> advantage of about four extra inches in Z, so the rotary had a little
> extra breathing room. A Chick subsystem was chosen and could mount
> directly to the XY table. You are correct that most machines get a sub-
> plate / universal tooling plate / sacrificial plate, I have what
> started out as a three inch thick piece of 7075 bolted to my table.
> After eight years it is getting to 2 3/4" with a few oops gouges. The
> only time I take the plate off is when I need the extra clearance for
> a tall part or about once a year to check for electrolysis and re-
> grease the table. If you go with the VF-3 or larger you can count on
> the plate staying on there for quite some time. Marine grease is a
> must, and a big flycutter to keep it pretty.
>
> For $5K more I would opt for the VF-4 over the VF-3 and with a package
> deal get the extra goodies - probably another $5K. 12K spindle would
> be nice, I have no problems living with my 10K. If I could budget I
> would get a a larger machine with the SS option, same reason I opted
> for the VF-0E at the time I bought mine. I wanted the 10K direct drive
> spindle, and the 30 inch X table. At the time it was $5,000 more than
> a VF-0 and to me a no-brainer. The VF-0E was really the same platform
> as the =A0VF-2, the VF-2 at the time had the geared head. The VF-0 faded
> over time into the more common VF-2. =A0For me the smaller footprint and
> big on options was the better choice. If you go with the VF-2 you can
> get three vises and most plate work on the table, the VF-4 will hold
> six vises and you won't have to open the end windows and move the part
> around if you do run a large piece. =A0Occasionally that four extra
> inches in Y on the VF-3 / 4 would come in handy.
>
> Granted we are talking about almost $20K difference between the VF-2
> and VF-4. If you don't have a headache yet, what do you have in the
> way of tools, toolholders, and vises. The toolholders at say $100 a
> pop and pull studs at $20 a pop will set you back a decent chunk of
> change. What ever you have, you can always use one more. You should
> budget around $5K if you do not already have the basics in house.
> Tooling preferences would be a good future topic.
>
> If you have any doubts the VF-2 10K spindle, side mount tool changer
> and add on package will be a great entry level machine and leave room
> in the budget to tool up and get going. If you are rolling the
> software into this budget count on between $6000 and $10000, still
> another topic. If you think you will grow out of the VF-2 in 6-12
> months pull the trigger on a bigger machine. Production means more
> vises on the table, and less open door time. One last if, if you are
> looking one to two years out at adding another machine anyway by then
> you will know if you need the bigger machine or can add on another /
> more 2's.
>
> Just a quick comment on the forty tool side mount. It is a larger
> circle that doesn't turn any faster than the 25, so your Cam post
> needs to index to the next tool way before it is needed. I have a
> handful of programs that use all 25 slots, most run at 12-18. And, the
> USB port is nice for the transfer, I have run programs from the USB
> flash drive - if it gets removed or bumped it is not a good thing,
> falls into the not a safe practice.
>
> It really is a big purchase, a lot to consider, worth the time to get
> opinions and see what is out there. Do the math and one will fall out
> as the best choice. =A0Sorry for rambling, this thread is getting kind
> of long, trying not to repeat to much of what has already posted. If
> this topic goes to far into left field drop me an email. Glad to help.
> JL
>
> On Feb 16, 2:58=A0pm, m <martin.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > JL,
>
> > Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with these
> > machines. =A0Lots of useful data to ponder.
>
> > Are you suggesting that if you had to choose between the Super-Speed
> > option and a larger machine you'd go for a larger machine?
>
> > Also, I am starting to think that the option for the X and Y slots on
> > the table might not be worth it. =A0After all, it seems that most of th=
e
> > time one would use a fixture or plate of some sort to hold the work
> > down.
>
> > Should I be considering any other manufacturer other than Haas at this
> > point? =A0I am somewhat convinced to go with them due to proximity (we
> > are in Southern California) and reputation. =A0Westec is coming-
> > up...should I wait and look at some other options? =A0We do need the
> > machine relatively soon...I just don't want to make a mistake. =A0As yo=
u
> > said, you sort of marry these things.
>
> > -Martin- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ditto what he said, except,
I have a VF-5 and would not have done it any other way,
however, if you are going to do plate work on a 5, keep in mind that
the spindle, even though it has 25" in Z, stops about 4.5" from the
table, meaning you will either have to "elevate" your plate, or use a
lot of extended holders, ask questions of your HFO.

I love my VF-5, the HRT 210 stays on the machine almost all the time,
the chick foundation is worth its weight in repeating setups,
keeping setups "keyed" off of the 50mm hole locations makes changing
from part to part much easier, I also have the chick grid
saved in Mastercam, thus when new jobs come up, I can accuratly lay
the stock in position and get going right away, or place tooling /
fixturing
on location, lots of open space on the table to work with, even with
the 4th axis on the machine.

BTW, I have the 7500 geared head option, I cut everything from delrin
to 6al-4v Ti. with 17-4 and lots of 4340 in the mix.

Of course I bleed HAAS red, so after 15 years of working with them, I
AM biased!

"D"

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:21:53 -0800 (PST), JL <axthrust@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hey Martin,
>
>I started running Haas machines about twelve years ago. I have
>programmed for Fadal, Hurco and I still deal with Anilam on a regular
>basis. Just like the software all machines have their quirks. 
<snip a bunch of very good advice and useful
suggestions/observations>

Thanks for a very detailed discussion.  I am retired and not in
the market for a CNC machine, but I appreciate the very clear and
detail summary and the time it took to type it up.

  
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies, 
must expect new evils: 
for Time is the greatest innovator: and 
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, 
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, 
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. 
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:02:20 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>> � If it's just for engraving on plastics what about some of the low-cost
>> "desktop"/hobby-class machines?
>
>You misunderstood.  Engraving plastics is just one aspect of what we
>have to do.  Most of the work will be in machining aluminum parts.
>
>-Martin

  Had to bait Dan M a bit more <g>.
  But check the HP/RPM/torque curves for the machines 
& compare to the work you may want to do with the
tools intended.
-- 
Cliff

JL, again, thanks for another post with lots of good info.

I have the Fadal guys coming out tomorrow to have a conversation.  On
first inspection it seems that they may have a very significant price
advantage.  Of course, the devil is in the details...I'll have to wait
until tomorrow to learn about options and additional costs.

There are also other considerations.  We know that we are very likely
to move sometime this year.  Perhaps towards the end of the year.
Haas has told us that moving their machines is not a traumatic
experience at all.  Fadal's machines seem to be substantially
heavier.  Not sure how much of a difference that might make.

> I have what
> started out as a three inch thick piece of 7075 bolted to my table.
> After eight years it is getting to 2 3/4" with a few oops gouges.

Does your plate cover the entire surface of the table?

Any pointers in terms of subplate design?  What hole pattern have you
found is best?  Do you have both threaded holes and plain holes for
pins?  I would imagine the subplate bolts to the table via recessed
bolts and t-nuts, correct?


> If I could budget I would get a a larger machine with the SS option

It's starting to feel that way.



> you won't have to open the end windows and move the part
> around if you do run a large piece.

That brings up a question about a hypothetical scenario.  On these
machines, if you have to, say, machine something at the end of a 20
foot extruded piece...do you just open the side windows and that's it?


> way of tools, toolholders, and vises.

Yup, that's where you can drop a lot of change in a microsencond.  We
put some tooling in the package but I am sure it won't be enough.  Is
it ever?

> One last if, if you are
> looking one to two years out at adding another machine anyway by then
> you will know if you need the bigger machine or can add on another /
> more 2's.

Yeah, we've discussed this idea.  It might make more sense to buy
something just slightly larger than what we need for the work to be
done now (which a VF2 will cover nicely) and then make  decision on a
larger machine a year or two down the line if things are going well.

> Sorry for rambling,

Rambling?  If this is rambling I want more of it!

Thanks,

-Martin

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:14:56 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>I would imagine the subplate bolts to the table via recessed
>bolts and t-nuts, correct?

  I'd think a key might be nice too.
-- 
Cliff

Cliff wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:14:56 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I would imagine the subplate bolts to the table via recessed
>> bolts and t-nuts, correct?
> 
>   I'd think a key might be nice too.

C:

	Keys tend to induce inaccuracies, and make installing and removing 
heavy subplates difficult.  Indicating a milled front surface and a 
locating hole within the subplate is often sufficient.

-- 
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

> =A0 I'd think a key might be nice too.

A key meaning a machined feature that would fit inside the t-slots for
the purspose of aligning the subplate?

Wouldn't the probing system pretty much negate the need for this?

-Martin

> Ditto what he said, except,
> I have a VF-5 and would not have done it any other way,
> however, if you are going to do plate work on a 5, keep in mind that
> the spindle, even though it has 25" in Z, stops about 4.5" from the
> table, meaning you will either have to "elevate" your plate, or use a
> lot of extended holders, ask questions of your HFO.

Interesting.  My guess is that the VF-5 is designed this way so that
you can mount fixtures on the machine and not loose operating volume?

-Martin

Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in
news:67kip4p6bud4ku0pr0mgbv3gtklnrdklfh@4ax.com: 

> On 16 Feb 2009 05:46:13 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>>Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in
>>news:ig5hp4l31a4o9he799dt2jq57is5f15j9d@ 4ax.com:
>>
>>> On 14 Feb 2009 17:14:58 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in
>>>>news:n1ndp4dsgri0k818mj31v0pog3371ak6rd@4ax.com: 
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:22:09 -0800 (PST), JRWheels
>>>>> <jrwheels16@aol.com> wrote: 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>Air Spindle
>>>>> 
>>>>>   Air costs a lot.
>>>>
>>>>So does machine time.
>>> 
>>>   So buy a machine with a faster spindle in the first place.
>>
>>To engrave plastic? Doesn't seem like a judicious use of funds to me.
> 
>   And spending on that Haas does? As does restricting the machine
> to "engraving plastics only"?
> __ 
> Cliff

He never said that was all the machine is going to do.

BTW, your cut line is broken.

-- 

Dan

CNC Videos - <http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d>

m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in news:6dcf016c-b0f7-4296-9a72-
53f24f997ca4@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> JL,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with these
> machines.  Lots of useful data to ponder.
> 
> Are you suggesting that if you had to choose between the Super-Speed
> option and a larger machine you'd go for a larger machine?
> 
> Also, I am starting to think that the option for the X and Y slots on
> the table might not be worth it.  After all, it seems that most of the
> time one would use a fixture or plate of some sort to hold the work
> down.
> 
> Should I be considering any other manufacturer other than Haas at this
> point?  I am somewhat convinced to go with them due to proximity (we
> are in Southern California) and reputation.  Westec is coming-
> up...should I wait and look at some other options?  We do need the
> machine relatively soon...I just don't want to make a mistake.  As you
> said, you sort of marry these things.
> 

If you can wait for the show, you can probably negotiate a better deal 
there. 

It's hard to say what else you should look at without knowing what type of 
work/tolerances you do. In that price range you could certainly look at 
Fadal, Milltronics, Hurco, Sharp, and the low end offerings from Okuma, 
Mori, Mazak, etc..

-- 

Dan

CNC Videos - <http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d>

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:37:03 -0800, BottleBob <bottlbob@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
>Cliff wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:14:56 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I would imagine the subplate bolts to the table via recessed
>>> bolts and t-nuts, correct?
>> 
>>   I'd think a key might be nice too.
>
>C:
>
>	Keys tend to induce inaccuracies, and make installing and removing 
>heavy subplates difficult.  

  Such as by dropping the key in a slot ...

>Indicating a milled front surface and a 
>locating hole within the subplate is often sufficient.

  One hole does not align any axes.

  BTW, What happens with a largish Aluminum plate
on a cast iron surface as the temp changes?
  Where was zero again?
-- 
Cliff

On 18 Feb 2009 03:35:04 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:

>> __ 
>> Cliff
>
>He never said that was all the machine is going to do.
>
>BTW, your cut line is broken.

  Happens now & then as I type them one by one
as sometimes I don't want one.
  Tired fingers get dyslexic too.
-- 
Cliff

On 18 Feb 2009 03:35:04 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:

>He never said that was all the machine is going to do.

  Then your comments you justified on that assumption 
are invalid from the get, right?
-- 
Cliff

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:47:36 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>> � I'd think a key might be nice too.
>
>A key meaning a machined feature that would fit inside the t-slots for
>the purspose of aligning the subplate?

  Add/bolt key(s) in slot(s) in subplate first; yes to t-slots.

>
>Wouldn't the probing system pretty much negate the need for this?

  Do you have rotary comp?
  Often other reasons too & keys can transfer some of the
cutting loads as well.

>
>-Martin
-- 
Cliff

Cliff wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:37:03 -0800, BottleBob <bottlbob@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Cliff wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:14:56 -0800 (PST), m <martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would imagine the subplate bolts to the table via recessed
>>>> bolts and t-nuts, correct?
>>>   I'd think a key might be nice too.
>> C:
>>
>> 	Keys tend to induce inaccuracies, and make installing and removing 
>> heavy subplates difficult.  
> 
>   Such as by dropping the key in a slot ...

Cliff:

	Yeah, the words make it SOUND easy.  Here's the actuality, big plate 
with NO keys - forklift pulls up to table - lines up with table height 
and plate is slid off onto table smoothly.
	Now here's a big plate WITH KEYS, forklift comes up to table - lines 
up enough to clear keys - plate is gingerly slid off a little crooked 
so keys don't fall into wrong T-slots.  While keys are scratching table 
before finding the right T-slots - then it goes KAACHUNK down into the 
T-slots perhaps nicking & scraping T-slot material WITH them.  Removal 
is just as much of a pain as well, have to pry up plate till keys clear 
the T-slots, then try not to damage the table too much when sliding the 
keys until you get enough purchase on the fork lift forks.
	Lifting the plate on the machine with chain and eyebolts is a pain as 
well.  Keys don't line up perfectly and STILL go KAACHUNK possibly 
tearing up T-slot grooves.  Taking the plate out with chain and 
eyebolts can be a pain too.  Much too easy to pull up and put 
distorting forces on the keys which may no longer be accurate.
	Keys are just an unnecessary pain in the rump.

>> Indicating a milled front surface and a 
>> locating hole within the subplate is often sufficient.
> 
>   One hole does not align any axes.

	Do you even read what you're responding to?

	Indicating front machined surface aligns plate to the machine axes. 
Indicating the ONE aligning hole aligns all the features on the plate 
to the offset you set.


>   BTW, What happens with a largish Aluminum plate
> on a cast iron surface as the temp changes?
>   Where was zero again?

	If you're doing multiple parts - that's rarely a problem.

	If you're doing one big part to close tolerances where expansion may 
be a problem, just use a cast iron sub-plate.

	Cliff, ol' buddy, I think you've been out of the loop a little too long.

-- 
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in news:begop4th0brdjru6qcotu5a9de00sgl8tm@
4ax.com:

> On 18 Feb 2009 03:35:04 GMT, D Murphy <spamto154@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>>He never said that was all the machine is going to do.
> 
>   Then your comments you justified on that assumption 
> are invalid from the get, right?

Nope.

-- 

Dan

CNC Videos - <http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:36:12 -0800 (PST), m
<martin.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3.  I wonder if anyone on this
>list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
>various options.
=========
You might also find these urls helpful
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=1000&f=43
and
http://www.haascnc.com/custserv_training.asp#lathe
and down load the manuals, workbooks, etc. in pdf format.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies, 
must expect new evils: 
for Time is the greatest innovator: and 
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, 
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, 
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. 
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

> You might also find these urls helpfulhttp://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=10...

Good resource.

Thank you,

-Martin

Thanks everyone for offering varied opinon and guidance on this
matter.  Today we closed the deal on our new VMC.  This is what we
got:

VF-3SS
12,000 RPM direct drive spindle
24 tool high-speed side-mount tool changer
1400ipm rapids
USB
55 gallon coolant system
Rigid tapping
Chip conveyor
Programmable coolant nozzle
Wireless probing system
Wireless toolsetting probe
Work offset, Macros, Spindle orientation
Coordinate rotation and scaling
16MB memory
High speed machining with look-ahead
4th axis wiring and 210mm servo rotary table with tooling block
Early power failure detection
Auxiliary coolant filter
24 pull studs (CT40)

At the moment it looks like we might go for MasterCAM but a SolidCAM
evaluation is pending next week.

Thanks again,

-Martin

> Thanks everyone for offering varied opinon and guidance on this
> matter.  Today we closed the deal on our new VMC.  This is what we
> got:
> 
> VF-3SS...

> 
> At the moment it looks like we might go for MasterCAM but a SolidCAM
> evaluation is pending next week.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> -Martin
> 
> 

Good choise as the base of the VS3 is the same as on as the larger VS4 & 
5. Haas has been trying to "thin down" castings (some are even imports 
now btw). So you have the largest base by scale theoretically.

If your a Solidworks house, and have no cam history, look at the systems 
that run natively inside of SW. You will be MUCH better off down the 
road.  Techsoft, HSMworks are two that come to mind. Ask your SW rep or 
Google. Mastercam and a couple others are now offering integration into 
Solidworks but unless they've changed their interface, you'll be sorely 
disappointed when switching between Cad and Cam.

--
Bill

"m" <martin.usenet@gmail.com> a �crit dans le message de news: 
6077cfaa-537c-45b5-a634-070d90992551@f20g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

As a total newbie in that kind of machining (and i'm in R&D anyway), i've 
been following the conversation with great interrest.
I'd like to have some explanations on a couple of things:

> High speed machining with look-ahead
Does it means that there is some kind of device that prevents collisions 
when machining? How does it work?

> Early power failure detection
What does it do, and how?

TIA
JM

Jean Marc wrote:

>> High speed machining with look-ahead
> Does it means that there is some kind of device that prevents collisions 
> when machining? How does it work?
> 
I just talked to haas about this the other day..

HSM enables the machine to look further ahead, so you get smoother tool 
paths with small movements (great for 3D surfacing) Also, it will adjust 
feedrates for a tool going into a corner (try to eliminate that damn 
chatter when putting a .5 em into a .25 R corner)

I'm in contact with haas to get me a trial run of that, The machine we 
got was a demo machine and they used up all the HSM time on it before we 
got it.. If I can prove that it is worth it, we'll buy it.

I would try to hack it, but by the time I figure that out, prolly be the 
same price.. lol

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:11:43 -0500, tnik <kortjester@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jean Marc wrote:
>
>>> High speed machining with look-ahead
>> Does it means that there is some kind of device that prevents collisions 
>> when machining? How does it work?
>> 
>I just talked to haas about this the other day..
>
>HSM enables the machine to look further ahead, so you get smoother tool 
>paths with small movements (great for 3D surfacing) Also, it will adjust 
>feedrates for a tool going into a corner (try to eliminate that damn 
>chatter when putting a .5 em into a .25 R corner)
>
>I'm in contact with haas to get me a trial run of that, The machine we 
>got was a demo machine and they used up all the HSM time on it before we 
>got it.. If I can prove that it is worth it, we'll buy it.
>
>I would try to hack it, but by the time I figure that out, prolly be the 
>same price.. lol

  How much is the CNC control & how much using a good
CAD/CAM or CAM system?
-- 
Cliff