Hello,
I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
driven applications, preferably for web portals.

[My questions:]
1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
profile do I fit in?
2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
with?
3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
optimally?
4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)

_Please read my (following) profile before replying!_

[I'm proficient in: ]
- Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
- Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
- Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon

- HTML, DHTML, CSS
- JS, PHP
- Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon

[I feel my strengths are: ]
-     I can design database systems (I don't know if that's the right
name to call it) on a very
short notice. However complex the application, it never takes me more
than a few hours (in the
very extreme of cases, and including drafting frontend layouts) to
chalk the whole thing out.
-     I'm good at debugging, and am extremely meticulous about good
coding practices and error and exception handling.
-     I'm good at designing good, clean webpages and emphasize on an
optimal use of CSS.
-     I'm quick to learn.

[Among professional projects I've done are: ]
1. A Content Management System (CMS) for a running national daily
newspaper
2. A complete University Management System
3. An image archive containing thousands of photos
4. A website for a newspaper

Help! And many thanks in advance.
dzn

dreamznatcher wrote:

> Hello,
> I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> driven applications, preferably for web portals.
> 
> [My questions:]
> 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> profile do I fit in?

Um, cowboy seems like a good fit.


> 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> with?

Dunno.


> 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> optimally?

The fundamentals of data management.


> 4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
> databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
> mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)

A lot of the heavy hitters in the data management arena seem centered 
around Stanford. I am sure plenty of other good schools have good 
programmes too.


> _Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
> 
> [I'm proficient in: ]
> - Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
> - Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
> - Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
> 
> - HTML, DHTML, CSS
> - JS, PHP
> - Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
> 
> [I feel my strengths are: ]
> -     I can design database systems (I don't know if that's the right
> name to call it) on a very
> short notice. However complex the application, it never takes me more
> than a few hours (in the
> very extreme of cases, and including drafting frontend layouts) to
> chalk the whole thing out.
> -     I'm good at debugging, and am extremely meticulous about good
> coding practices and error and exception handling.
> -     I'm good at designing good, clean webpages and emphasize on an
> optimal use of CSS.
> -     I'm quick to learn.
> 
> [Among professional projects I've done are: ]
> 1. A Content Management System (CMS) for a running national daily
> newspaper
> 2. A complete University Management System
> 3. An image archive containing thousands of photos
> 4. A website for a newspaper
> 
> Help! And many thanks in advance.
> dzn

dreamznatcher wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> driven applications, preferably for web portals.
> 
> [My questions:]
> 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> profile do I fit in?

You don't fit into any specific hash bucket but rather likely have
the ability to morph into whichever one you wish.

Rather than approaching it from the standpoint of "I'm a square peg
which hole should I put myself in?" Turn it around and say "I am a
morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy being in?"

> 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> with?

Best place to look is dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com, etc. But
the job market today is not the job market of tomorrow. Certainly
there are some things that are safer bets than others. One can
essentially guarantee Oracle will still be around in 20 years whereas
one can be rather certain a large number of products and companies
will not be: At least not in their current form.

> 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> optimally?

Depends on what you want to be doing when you are 57 years old. The
only correct answer is asking strangers is a sure road to disaster.

> 4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
> databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
> mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)

What country? I'm not aware of one in the US but you might want to
contact Professor Carl Dudley at University of Wolverhampton with
respect to the EU.

> _Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
> 
> [I'm proficient in: ]
> - Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
> - Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
> - Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
> 
> - HTML, DHTML, CSS
> - JS, PHP
> - Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon

To be brutally honest with you ... no you aren't. One of the things
that gets me to toss a resume into the discard pile when looking at
resumes is a laundry list of technologies so vast no person could
possibly be competent in all of them. Above is such a list and not
only are you not proficient in all of them neither is anyone else.

Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except in
HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

dreamznatcher wrote:

> [I feel my strengths are: ]
> -     I can design database systems (I don't know if that's the right
> name to call it) on a very
> short notice. However complex the application, it never takes me more
> than a few hours (in the
> very extreme of cases, and including drafting frontend layouts) to
> chalk the whole thing out.

Amazing.
All in just a few hours.

Amazing.

"dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183193373.365894.219440@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
> I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>
> [My questions:]
> 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> profile do I fit in?
> 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> with?
> 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> optimally?
> 4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
> databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
> mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)
>
> _Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
>
> [I'm proficient in: ]
> - Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
> - Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
> - Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
>
> - HTML, DHTML, CSS
> - JS, PHP
> - Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
>
> [I feel my strengths are: ]
> -     I can design database systems (I don't know if that's the right
> name to call it) on a very
> short notice. However complex the application, it never takes me more
> than a few hours (in the
> very extreme of cases, and including drafting frontend layouts) to
> chalk the whole thing out.
> -     I'm good at debugging, and am extremely meticulous about good
> coding practices and error and exception handling.
> -     I'm good at designing good, clean webpages and emphasize on an
> optimal use of CSS.
> -     I'm quick to learn.
>
> [Among professional projects I've done are: ]
> 1. A Content Management System (CMS) for a running national daily
> newspaper
> 2. A complete University Management System
> 3. An image archive containing thousands of photos
> 4. A website for a newspaper
>
> Help! And many thanks in advance.
> dzn
>

Whatever else you do, don't turn 40.

On Jun 30, 10:12 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> dreamznatcher wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> > need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> > graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> > driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>
> > [My questions:]
> > 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> > profile do I fit in?
>
> You don't fit into any specific hash bucket but rather likely have
> the ability to morph into whichever one you wish.
>
> Rather than approaching it from the standpoint of "I'm a square peg
> which hole should I put myself in?" Turn it around and say "I am a
> morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy being in?"
>
> > 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> > professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> > with?
>
> Best place to look is dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com, etc. But
> the job market today is not the job market of tomorrow. Certainly
> there are some things that are safer bets than others. One can
> essentially guarantee Oracle will still be around in 20 years whereas
> one can be rather certain a large number of products and companies
> will not be: At least not in their current form.
>
> > 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> > optimally?
>
> Depends on what you want to be doing when you are 57 years old. The
> only correct answer is asking strangers is a sure road to disaster.
>
> > 4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
> > databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
> > mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)
>
> What country? I'm not aware of one in the US but you might want to
> contact Professor Carl Dudley at University of Wolverhampton with
> respect to the EU.
>
> > _Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
>
> > [I'm proficient in: ]
> > - Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
> > - Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
> > - Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
>
> > - HTML, DHTML, CSS
> > - JS, PHP
> > - Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
>
> To be brutally honest with you ... no you aren't. One of the things
> that gets me to toss a resume into the discard pile when looking at
> resumes is a laundry list of technologies so vast no person could
> possibly be competent in all of them. Above is such a list and not
> only are you not proficient in all of them neither is anyone else.
>
> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except in
> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org

Mr. Morgan said "I'm a morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy
being in"?.

Yikes.

"hpuxrac" <johnbhurley@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 
news:1183225668.048512.313150@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Mr. Morgan said "I'm a morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy
> being in"?.
>
> Yikes.

Yes, we were all thinking it.

R.

hpuxrac wrote:

> Mr. Morgan said "I'm a morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy
> being in"?.
> 
> Yikes.

I'm an optimist and you can frolic in the double entendre' if you wish. <g>
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

"David Cressey" <cressey73@verizon.net> wrote:

[snip]

>Whatever else you do, don't turn 40.

     It will not be for a while for me.  I am only 2E.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
     I have preferences.
     You have biases.
     He/She has prejudices.

hpuxrac wrote:

> On Jun 30, 10:12 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> 
>>dreamznatcher wrote:
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
>>>need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
>>>graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
>>>driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>>
>>>[My questions:]
>>>1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
>>>profile do I fit in?
>>
>>You don't fit into any specific hash bucket but rather likely have
>>the ability to morph into whichever one you wish.
>>
>>Rather than approaching it from the standpoint of "I'm a square peg
>>which hole should I put myself in?" Turn it around and say "I am a
>>morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy being in?"
>>
>>
>>>2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
>>>professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
>>>with?
>>
>>Best place to look is dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com, etc. But
>>the job market today is not the job market of tomorrow. Certainly
>>there are some things that are safer bets than others. One can
>>essentially guarantee Oracle will still be around in 20 years whereas
>>one can be rather certain a large number of products and companies
>>will not be: At least not in their current form.
>>
>>
>>>3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
>>>optimally?
>>
>>Depends on what you want to be doing when you are 57 years old. The
>>only correct answer is asking strangers is a sure road to disaster.
>>
>>
>>>4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
>>>databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
>>>mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)
>>
>>What country? I'm not aware of one in the US but you might want to
>>contact Professor Carl Dudley at University of Wolverhampton with
>>respect to the EU.
>>
>>
>>>_Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
>>
>>>[I'm proficient in: ]
>>>- Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
>>>- Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
>>>- Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
>>
>>>- HTML, DHTML, CSS
>>>- JS, PHP
>>>- Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
>>
>>To be brutally honest with you ... no you aren't. One of the things
>>that gets me to toss a resume into the discard pile when looking at
>>resumes is a laundry list of technologies so vast no person could
>>possibly be competent in all of them. Above is such a list and not
>>only are you not proficient in all of them neither is anyone else.
>>
>>Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except in
>>HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>
>>--
>>Daniel A. Morgan
>>University of Washington
>>damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>>Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
> 
> 
> Mr. Morgan said "I'm a morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy
> being in"?.
> 
> Yikes.

He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could 
learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so 
he assumes everybody else is too.

On Jun 30, 8:12 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> dreamznatcher wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> > need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> > graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> > driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>
> > [My questions:]
> > 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> > profile do I fit in?
>
> You don't fit into any specific hash bucket but rather likely have
> the ability to morph into whichever one you wish.
>
> Rather than approaching it from the standpoint of "I'm a square peg
> which hole should I put myself in?" Turn it around and say "I am a
> morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy being in?"
>
> > 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> > professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> > with?
>
> Best place to look is dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com, etc. But
> the job market today is not the job market of tomorrow. Certainly
> there are some things that are safer bets than others. One can
> essentially guarantee Oracle will still be around in 20 years whereas
> one can be rather certain a large number of products and companies
> will not be: At least not in their current form.
>
> > 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> > optimally?
>
> Depends on what you want to be doing when you are 57 years old. The
> only correct answer is asking strangers is a sure road to disaster.
>
> > 4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
> > databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
> > mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)
>
> What country? I'm not aware of one in the US but you might want to
> contact Professor Carl Dudley at University of Wolverhampton with
> respect to the EU.
>
> > _Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
>
> > [I'm proficient in: ]
> > - Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
> > - Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
> > - Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
>
> > - HTML, DHTML, CSS
> > - JS, PHP
> > - Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
>
> To be brutally honest with you ... no you aren't. One of the things
> that gets me to toss a resume into the discard pile when looking at
> resumes is a laundry list of technologies so vast no person could
> possibly be competent in all of them. Above is such a list and not
> only are you not proficient in all of them neither is anyone else.
>
> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except in
> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org

Hello everyone,
(Mr Morgan and rkc on comp.databases.ms-access:)
I've mailed you about this a little while ago (I actually wanted to
post it but had clicked on "Reply to author"), but don't want to
bother you further on this and through your mailbox, so I'm posting
this here again.

Yes, I am extremely sorry for appearing so naive and having such ill
taste, but I tried to express my situation as honestly as possible and
unfortunately that's what I came up with. I do agree with you on the
use of the word "proficient" -- one truly cannot be that skilled in
anything these days. All I wanted to say was that I know a bit of
those stuff, enough to get my work done, and not in standards
considerably horrible by any means.

I don't claim that I'm bullet-proof in any of the scripting languages
or web stuff I've mentioned. But I do know that I can conceptualize
(including front-end design and dealing with constraints and integrity
issues) complex database-shouldered systems (here's one for you: I
often fiddle with the idea of creating a singular application that can
integrate and manage all the possible tasks, divisions and departments
of an organization on the scale of the EU or UN in their totality)
pretty fast (fast, e.g. I was working on this project that would
handle $30M in the national reserve, an application that would reduce
stagnancy of stored cash in the banking network by branching out to
web portals that would circulate revenue. The idea is far more
complicated than can be stated in a few lines, and was slated to be
reviewed by the Finance Ministry. If anyone of you follow the current
political scenario of Bangladesh, you'd know drastic political changes
are going about here, and the project got lost amidst more realistic
problems in the backdrop of a country where computer literacy accounts
for less than one percent. Getting back to the time factor, the whole
thing only took me 2 days to chalk out, including drafting the
interfaces.) I'm no expert, but whenever I took a database related
course in my university, literally half of the CSC department would
crash in to watch the demonstrations. Teachers and students would
repeatedly inquire about my project throughout the semester, and the
whole faculty has repeatedly asked me to get serious in this business.
These are the kind of things that have got me inspired and pushed the
humble, stupid likes of me far enough to be seeking for your advice.

As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
stupid in your context than ours.

By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.

No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
dzn

Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> "David Cressey" <cressey73@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Whatever else you do, don't turn 40.
>
>     It will not be for a while for me.  I am only 2E.
>

Like the Beatles in this 40, ehrm 28 year old song:

Will they still need me
Will they still feed me
When I'm X-four-O

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=_MYBXNC1yvo

But look what is going on with 41 year old Paul McCartney ...

-- 
Jeroen 

On Jun 30, 4:39 pm, dreamznatcher <tashfeenmah...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > Hello,
> > > I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> > > need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> > > graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> > > driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>
> > > [My questions:]
> > > 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> > > profile do I fit in?

In the United States where I am, there appears to be some fairly
strong demand for computer professionals with strong oracle skills.
With the success that oracle is enjoying in the commercial marketplace
people that can integrate oracle authored applications as well as
custom solutions based on oracle database technology appear to have a
good chance for sucess in the long run.

> > > 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> > > professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> > > with?

Varies by how much work experience you have.  The oracle dba
marketplace is typically one that is not easy for people to break into
without relevant work experience but the overall demand factor may be
changing that.

> > > 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> > > optimally?

Real database design experience which integrates theoretical knowledge
with practical solutions.  Lots of time spent doing and working
through ERD based projects.

As unfortunate as it sounds, often you learn the most from mistakes
that you make during the design process.  Many of us have been around
long enough and made enough mistakes ( regrettably ) that experience
starts sounding alarms when the design has problems.

Many of us make the same mistake more than once.  Hopefully by the
time you get around to the third time you may still be headed toward a
bad decision but at least you may be getting nervous about it.road to
disaster.

snip


> Hello everyone,
> (Mr Morgan and rkc on comp.databases.ms-access:)
> I've mailed you about this a little while ago (I actually wanted to
> post it but had clicked on "Reply to author"), but don't want to
> bother you further on this and through your mailbox, so I'm posting
> this here again.
>
> Yes, I am extremely sorry for appearing so naive and having such ill
> taste, but I tried to express my situation as honestly as possible and
> unfortunately that's what I came up with. I do agree with you on the
> use of the word "proficient" -- one truly cannot be that skilled in
> anything these days. All I wanted to say was that I know a bit of
> those stuff, enough to get my work done, and not in standards
> considerably horrible by any means.

Umm proficiency is something that is gained over the years and by
years of relevant experience not months.

I don't recall anyone calling you horrible.

>
> I don't claim that I'm bullet-proof in any of the scripting languages
> or web stuff I've mentioned. But I do know that I can conceptualize
> (including front-end design and dealing with constraints and integrity
> issues) complex database-shouldered systems

Conceptualizing designs is a good starting point.  But it is easy to
start talking and get excited without doing enough homework in any
given area.

ERD is what it is all about for relational systems.  The entities, the
attributes, the relationships between entities, and the type of
relationships ( one to one, many to one, many to many ).  Subtyping
and supertyping.

Complex systems have a whole bunch of entities.  ERP systems are
complex.  CRM systems are moderately complicated.  It's not the same
thing.

>  (here's one for you: I
> often fiddle with the idea of creating a singular application that can
> integrate and manage all the possible tasks, divisions and departments
> of an organization on the scale of the EU or UN in their totality)
> pretty fast (fast, e.g. I was working on this project that would
> handle $30M in the national reserve, an application that would reduce
> stagnancy of stored cash in the banking network by branching out to
> web portals that would circulate revenue. The idea is far more
> complicated than can be stated in a few lines, and was slated to be
> reviewed by the Finance Ministry. If anyone of you follow the current
> political scenario of Bangladesh, you'd know drastic political changes
> are going about here, and the project got lost amidst more realistic
> problems in the backdrop of a country where computer literacy accounts
> for less than one percent. Getting back to the time factor, the whole
> thing only took me 2 days to chalk out, including drafting the
> interfaces.) I'm no expert, but whenever I took a database related
> course in my university, literally half of the CSC department would
> crash in to watch the demonstrations. Teachers and students would
> repeatedly inquire about my project throughout the semester, and the
> whole faculty has repeatedly asked me to get serious in this business.
> These are the kind of things that have got me inspired and pushed the
> humble, stupid likes of me far enough to be seeking for your advice.

Not trying to be pessimistic but what do you mean by "chalk out".  Two
days doesn't sound like near enough time to even get close to thinking
you have a complete ERD of the relevant entities involved.

You also have a complete design of relevant interfaces in 2 days?

To me at least, in 2 days you might have done some serious thinking
about this area and just started to realize how complicated it might
be.

That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
well as a set of business requirements.

>
> As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
> the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
> advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
> crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
> Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
> stupid in your context than ours.
>
> By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
> intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
> illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
> because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
> for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
> necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
> people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.

Start with the basic texts in the database design world.  You need to
vary between ones that are application based and include sample
designs and the theoretical ones.

Do you know that the theoretical ones are?  I can get to work on
monday and pick some of the best titles and books but if you take a
look at amazon and search on "database design" you can probably get a
good idea.

> No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
> dzn-

Best of luck.

On Jul 1, 3:56 am, hpuxrac <johnbhur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jun 30, 4:39 pm, dreamznatcher <tashfeenmah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Hello,
> > > > I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> > > > need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> > > > graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> > > > driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>
> > > > [My questions:]
> > > > 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> > > > profile do I fit in?
>
> In the United States where I am, there appears to be some fairly
> strong demand for computer professionals with strong oracle skills.
> With the success that oracle is enjoying in the commercial marketplace
> people that can integrate oracle authored applications as well as
> custom solutions based on oracle database technology appear to have a
> good chance for sucess in the long run.
>
> > > > 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> > > > professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> > > > with?
>
> Varies by how much work experience you have.  The oracle dba
> marketplace is typically one that is not easy for people to break into
> without relevant work experience but the overall demand factor may be
> changing that.
>
> > > > 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> > > > optimally?
>
> Real database design experience which integrates theoretical knowledge
> with practical solutions.  Lots of time spent doing and working
> through ERD based projects.
>
> As unfortunate as it sounds, often you learn the most from mistakes
> that you make during the design process.  Many of us have been around
> long enough and made enough mistakes ( regrettably ) that experience
> starts sounding alarms when the design has problems.
>
> Many of us make the same mistake more than once.  Hopefully by the
> time you get around to the third time you may still be headed toward a
> bad decision but at least you may be getting nervous about it.road to
> disaster.
>
> snip
>
> > Hello everyone,
> > (Mr Morgan and rkc on comp.databases.ms-access:)
> > I've mailed you about this a little while ago (I actually wanted to
> > post it but had clicked on "Reply to author"), but don't want to
> > bother you further on this and through your mailbox, so I'm posting
> > this here again.
>
> > Yes, I am extremely sorry for appearing so naive and having such ill
> > taste, but I tried to express my situation as honestly as possible and
> > unfortunately that's what I came up with. I do agree with you on the
> > use of the word "proficient" -- one truly cannot be that skilled in
> > anything these days. All I wanted to say was that I know a bit of
> > those stuff, enough to get my work done, and not in standards
> > considerably horrible by any means.
>
> Umm proficiency is something that is gained over the years and by
> years of relevant experience not months.
>
> I don't recall anyone calling you horrible.
>
>
>
> > I don't claim that I'm bullet-proof in any of the scripting languages
> > or web stuff I've mentioned. But I do know that I can conceptualize
> > (including front-end design and dealing with constraints and integrity
> > issues) complex database-shouldered systems
>
> Conceptualizing designs is a good starting point.  But it is easy to
> start talking and get excited without doing enough homework in any
> given area.
>
> ERD is what it is all about for relational systems.  The entities, the
> attributes, the relationships between entities, and the type of
> relationships ( one to one, many to one, many to many ).  Subtyping
> and supertyping.
>
> Complex systems have a whole bunch of entities.  ERP systems are
> complex.  CRM systems are moderately complicated.  It's not the same
> thing.
>
>
>
> >  (here's one for you: I
> > often fiddle with the idea of creating a singular application that can
> > integrate and manage all the possible tasks, divisions and departments
> > of an organization on the scale of the EU or UN in their totality)
> > pretty fast (fast, e.g. I was working on this project that would
> > handle $30M in the national reserve, an application that would reduce
> > stagnancy of stored cash in the banking network by branching out to
> > web portals that would circulate revenue. The idea is far more
> > complicated than can be stated in a few lines, and was slated to be
> > reviewed by the Finance Ministry. If anyone of you follow the current
> > political scenario of Bangladesh, you'd know drastic political changes
> > are going about here, and the project got lost amidst more realistic
> > problems in the backdrop of a country where computer literacy accounts
> > for less than one percent. Getting back to the time factor, the whole
> > thing only took me 2 days to chalk out, including drafting the
> > interfaces.) I'm no expert, but whenever I took a database related
> > course in my university, literally half of the CSC department would
> > crash in to watch the demonstrations. Teachers and students would
> > repeatedly inquire about my project throughout the semester, and the
> > whole faculty has repeatedly asked me to get serious in this business.
> > These are the kind of things that have got me inspired and pushed the
> > humble, stupid likes of me far enough to be seeking for your advice.
>
> Not trying to be pessimistic but what do you mean by "chalk out".  Two
> days doesn't sound like near enough time to even get close to thinking
> you have a complete ERD of the relevant entities involved.
>
> You also have a complete design of relevant interfaces in 2 days?
>
> To me at least, in 2 days you might have done some serious thinking
> about this area and just started to realize how complicated it might
> be.
>
> That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
> well as a set of business requirements.
>
>
>
> > As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
> > the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
> > advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
> > crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
> > Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
> > stupid in your context than ours.
>
> > By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
> > intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
> > illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
> > because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
> > for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
> > necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
> > people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.
>
> Start with the basic texts in the database design world.  You need to
> vary between ones that are application based and include sample
> designs and the theoretical ones.
>
> Do you know that the theoretical ones are?  I can get to work on
> monday and pick some of the best titles and books but if you take a
> look at amazon and search on "database design" you can probably get a
> good idea.
>
> > No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
> > dzn-
>
> Best of luck.


Dear hpuxrac:
> I don't recall anyone calling you horrible.
Obviously. But then you get impressions like these:
   >> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except
in
   >> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen
and not to mention pegs getting hammered into your head, when you're
only trying to get serious.
Not nice, and definitely gives you the impression you're off-market.
Sorry if this is only me getting affected.

> Not trying to be pessimistic but what do you mean by "chalk out".  Two
> days doesn't sound like near enough time to even get close to thinking
> you have a complete ERD of the relevant entities involved.
>
> You also have a complete design of relevant interfaces in 2 days?
>
> To me at least, in 2 days you might have done some serious thinking
> about this area and just started to realize how complicated it might
> be.
>
> That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
> well as a set of business requirements.
>
>
>
> > As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
> > the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
> > advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
> > crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
> > Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
> > stupid in your context than ours.
>
> > By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
> > intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
> > illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
> > because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
> > for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
> > necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
> > people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.
>
> Start with the basic texts in the database design world.  You need to
> vary between ones that are application based and include sample
> designs and the theoretical ones.
>
> Do you know that the theoretical ones are?  I can get to work on
> monday and pick some of the best titles and books but if you take a
> look at amazon and search on "database design" you can probably get a
> good idea.
>
> > No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
> > dzn-
>
> Best of luck.


Dear hpuxrac:
> I don't recall anyone calling you horrible.
Obviously. But then you get impressions like these:
   >> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except
in
   >> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen
and not to mention pegs getting hammered into your head, when you're
only trying to get serious.
Not nice, and definitely gives you the impression you're off-market.
Sorry if this is only me getting affected.

> Not trying to be pessimistic but what do you mean by "chalk out".  Two
> days doesn't sound like near enough time to even get close to thinking
> you have a complete ERD of the relevant entities involved.
>
> You also have a complete design of relevant interfaces in 2 days?
>
> To me at least, in 2 days you might have done some serious thinking
> about this area and just started to realize how complicated it might
> be.
>
> That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
> well as a set of business requirements.
>
>
>
> > As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
> > the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
> > advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
> > crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
> > Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
> > stupid in your context than ours.
>
> > By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
> > intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
> > illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
> > because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
> > for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
> > necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
> > people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.
>
> Start with the basic texts in the database design world.  You need to
> vary between ones that are application based and include sample
> designs and the theoretical ones.
>
> Do you know that the theoretical ones are?  I can get to work on
> monday and pick some of the best titles and books but if you take a
> look at amazon and search on "database design" you can probably get a
> good idea.
>
> > No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
> > dzn-
>
> Best of luck.


Dear hpuxrac:
> I don't recall anyone calling you horrible.
Obviously. But then you get impressions like these:
   >> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except
in
   >> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen
and not to mention pegs getting hammered into your head, when you're
only trying to get serious.
Not nice, and definitely gives you the impression you're off-market.
Sorry if this is only me getting affected.

> Not trying to be pessimistic but what do you mean by "chalk out".  Two
> days doesn't sound like near enough time to even get close to thinking
> you have a complete ERD of the relevant entities involved.
>
> You also have a complete design of relevant interfaces in 2 days?
>
> To me at least, in 2 days you might have done some serious thinking
> about this area and just started to realize how complicated it might
> be.
>
> That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
> well as a set of business requirements.
>
>
>
> > As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
> > the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
> > advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
> > crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
> > Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
> > stupid in your context than ours.
>
> > By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
> > intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
> > illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
> > because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
> > for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
> > necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
> > people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.
>
> Start with the basic texts in the database design world.  You need to
> vary between ones that are application based and include sample
> designs and the theoretical ones.
>
> Do you know that the theoretical ones are?  I can get to work on
> monday and pick some of the best titles and books but if you take a
> look at amazon and search on "database design" you can probably get a
> good idea.
>
> > No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
> > dzn-
>
> Best of luck.

Dear hpuxrac:
Thanks, first off, for such a detailed and helpful response.
That should be the end of this string, but I feel I should clarify a
few things.

> Not trying to be pessimistic but what do you mean by "chalk out".  Two
> days doesn't sound like near enough time to even get close to thinking
> you have a complete ERD of the relevant entities involved.
>
> You also have a complete design of relevant interfaces in 2 days?
>
> To me at least, in 2 days you might have done some serious thinking
> about this area and just started to realize how complicated it might
> be.

By "chalk out"/conceptualize I precisely meant doing ERDs. Yes, I did
it; it was very big -- it took me around eight cartridge-size papers
taped together and got my back strained. But the whole thing didn't
take me more than 2 working days (~20 hrs at most) and I enjoyed it
thoroughly. And, I drafted the interface -- like this page/frame will
look like this and have these objects/forms and accept these kind of
entries, yadda yadda yadda.

> That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
> well as a set of business requirements.

I've done ERP, and maintained appropriate design standards. I don't
know what's a CRP.

And at this point, could I afford a further question? :
Is drawing ERDs and chalking out how a database application will work
(on paper) such a big deal? If it is, what do you call the guy who
does it.. the database architect or something?

> I don't recall anyone calling you horrible.
Obviously. But then you get impressions like these:

   >> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except
in
   >> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen

and not to mention pegs getting hammered into your head, and into
where-not of the issue, when you're only trying to get serious. Not
nice, and definitely gives you the impression you're off-market. Sorry
if this is only me getting affected.

Lastly, the same thing I started off with: thanks.

Bob Badour wrote:

> He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could 
> learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so 
> he assumes everybody else is too.

Are you willing to stand up in front of an audience of 200+ developers
and DBAs, averaging 7.5 years of experience, and field live questions
on just one of those products: The Oracle 10g database?

There are a small number of us that do. Any time you want to join us
let me know and I will give you that opportunity. It will be really
interesting to watch you back up your words with action, at a podium
in a lecture hall, and with no prop other than a SQL*Plus command line.
Pick any date between August 19 and December 19, 2007.

In the learning curve of all skills and technologies there is a point 
where one begins and they know they know nothing. Then they gain a
little knowledge and they think they know it all (sort of like being
a teenager). Some dig deeper and learn how much they really don't know.
Perhaps Bob you are one of those that never took that final step. I've
never met you so I don't know. But I do know that the real experts
never make the mistake you just made.

Your bluff and bluster have been called Bob. If you do it and can walk
the walk I will personally reimburse your airplane ticket and hotel.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

dreamznatcher wrote:
> On Jun 30, 8:12 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>> dreamznatcher wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
>>> need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
>>> graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
>>> driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>>> [My questions:]
>>> 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
>>> profile do I fit in?
>> You don't fit into any specific hash bucket but rather likely have
>> the ability to morph into whichever one you wish.
>>
>> Rather than approaching it from the standpoint of "I'm a square peg
>> which hole should I put myself in?" Turn it around and say "I am a
>> morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy being in?"
>>
>>> 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
>>> professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
>>> with?
>> Best place to look is dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com, etc. But
>> the job market today is not the job market of tomorrow. Certainly
>> there are some things that are safer bets than others. One can
>> essentially guarantee Oracle will still be around in 20 years whereas
>> one can be rather certain a large number of products and companies
>> will not be: At least not in their current form.
>>
>>> 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
>>> optimally?
>> Depends on what you want to be doing when you are 57 years old. The
>> only correct answer is asking strangers is a sure road to disaster.
>>
>>> 4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
>>> databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
>>> mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)
>> What country? I'm not aware of one in the US but you might want to
>> contact Professor Carl Dudley at University of Wolverhampton with
>> respect to the EU.
>>
>>> _Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
>>> [I'm proficient in: ]
>>> - Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
>>> - Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
>>> - Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
>>> - HTML, DHTML, CSS
>>> - JS, PHP
>>> - Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
>> To be brutally honest with you ... no you aren't. One of the things
>> that gets me to toss a resume into the discard pile when looking at
>> resumes is a laundry list of technologies so vast no person could
>> possibly be competent in all of them. Above is such a list and not
>> only are you not proficient in all of them neither is anyone else.
>>
>> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except in
>> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>
>> --
>> Daniel A. Morgan
>> University of Washington
>> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
> 
> Hello everyone,
> (Mr Morgan and rkc on comp.databases.ms-access:)
> I've mailed you about this a little while ago (I actually wanted to
> post it but had clicked on "Reply to author"), but don't want to
> bother you further on this and through your mailbox, so I'm posting
> this here again.
> 
> Yes, I am extremely sorry for appearing so naive and having such ill
> taste, but I tried to express my situation as honestly as possible and
> unfortunately that's what I came up with. I do agree with you on the
> use of the word "proficient" -- one truly cannot be that skilled in
> anything these days. All I wanted to say was that I know a bit of
> those stuff, enough to get my work done, and not in standards
> considerably horrible by any means.
> 
> I don't claim that I'm bullet-proof in any of the scripting languages
> or web stuff I've mentioned. But I do know that I can conceptualize
> (including front-end design and dealing with constraints and integrity
> issues) complex database-shouldered systems (here's one for you: I
> often fiddle with the idea of creating a singular application that can
> integrate and manage all the possible tasks, divisions and departments
> of an organization on the scale of the EU or UN in their totality)
> pretty fast (fast, e.g. I was working on this project that would
> handle $30M in the national reserve, an application that would reduce
> stagnancy of stored cash in the banking network by branching out to
> web portals that would circulate revenue. The idea is far more
> complicated than can be stated in a few lines, and was slated to be
> reviewed by the Finance Ministry. If anyone of you follow the current
> political scenario of Bangladesh, you'd know drastic political changes
> are going about here, and the project got lost amidst more realistic
> problems in the backdrop of a country where computer literacy accounts
> for less than one percent. Getting back to the time factor, the whole
> thing only took me 2 days to chalk out, including drafting the
> interfaces.) I'm no expert, but whenever I took a database related
> course in my university, literally half of the CSC department would
> crash in to watch the demonstrations. Teachers and students would
> repeatedly inquire about my project throughout the semester, and the
> whole faculty has repeatedly asked me to get serious in this business.
> These are the kind of things that have got me inspired and pushed the
> humble, stupid likes of me far enough to be seeking for your advice.
> 
> As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
> the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
> advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
> crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
> Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
> stupid in your context than ours.
> 
> By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
> intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
> illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
> because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
> for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
> necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
> people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.
> 
> No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
> dzn

I'm impressed: If I can help you email me at the university.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

On Jul 1, 3:56 am, hpuxrac <johnbhur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jun 30, 4:39 pm, dreamznatcher <tashfeenmah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Hello,
> > > > I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> > > > need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> > > > graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> > > > driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>
> > > > [My questions:]
> > > > 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> > > > profile do I fit in?
>
> In the United States where I am, there appears to be some fairly
> strong demand for computer professionals with strong oracle skills.
> With the success that oracle is enjoying in the commercial marketplace
> people that can integrate oracle authored applications as well as
> custom solutions based on oracle database technology appear to have a
> good chance for sucess in the long run.
>
> > > > 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> > > > professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> > > > with?
>
> Varies by how much work experience you have.  The oracle dba
> marketplace is typically one that is not easy for people to break into
> without relevant work experience but the overall demand factor may be
> changing that.
>
> > > > 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> > > > optimally?
>
> Real database design experience which integrates theoretical knowledge
> with practical solutions.  Lots of time spent doing and working
> through ERD based projects.
>
> As unfortunate as it sounds, often you learn the most from mistakes
> that you make during the design process.  Many of us have been around
> long enough and made enough mistakes ( regrettably ) that experience
> starts sounding alarms when the design has problems.
>
> Many of us make the same mistake more than once.  Hopefully by the
> time you get around to the third time you may still be headed toward a
> bad decision but at least you may be getting nervous about it.road to
> disaster.
>
> snip
>
> > Hello everyone,
> > (Mr Morgan and rkc on comp.databases.ms-access:)
> > I've mailed you about this a little while ago (I actually wanted to
> > post it but had clicked on "Reply to author"), but don't want to
> > bother you further on this and through your mailbox, so I'm posting
> > this here again.
>
> > Yes, I am extremely sorry for appearing so naive and having such ill
> > taste, but I tried to express my situation as honestly as possible and
> > unfortunately that's what I came up with. I do agree with you on the
> > use of the word "proficient" -- one truly cannot be that skilled in
> > anything these days. All I wanted to say was that I know a bit of
> > those stuff, enough to get my work done, and not in standards
> > considerably horrible by any means.
>
> Umm proficiency is something that is gained over the years and by
> years of relevant experience not months.
>
> I don't recall anyone calling you horrible.
>
>
>
> > I don't claim that I'm bullet-proof in any of the scripting languages
> > or web stuff I've mentioned. But I do know that I can conceptualize
> > (including front-end design and dealing with constraints and integrity
> > issues) complex database-shouldered systems
>
> Conceptualizing designs is a good starting point.  But it is easy to
> start talking and get excited without doing enough homework in any
> given area.
>
> ERD is what it is all about for relational systems.  The entities, the
> attributes, the relationships between entities, and the type of
> relationships ( one to one, many to one, many to many ).  Subtyping
> and supertyping.
>
> Complex systems have a whole bunch of entities.  ERP systems are
> complex.  CRM systems are moderately complicated.  It's not the same
> thing.
>
>
>
> >  (here's one for you: I
> > often fiddle with the idea of creating a singular application that can
> > integrate and manage all the possible tasks, divisions and departments
> > of an organization on the scale of the EU or UN in their totality)
> > pretty fast (fast, e.g. I was working on this project that would
> > handle $30M in the national reserve, an application that would reduce
> > stagnancy of stored cash in the banking network by branching out to
> > web portals that would circulate revenue. The idea is far more
> > complicated than can be stated in a few lines, and was slated to be
> > reviewed by the Finance Ministry. If anyone of you follow the current
> > political scenario of Bangladesh, you'd know drastic political changes
> > are going about here, and the project got lost amidst more realistic
> > problems in the backdrop of a country where computer literacy accounts
> > for less than one percent. Getting back to the time factor, the whole
> > thing only took me 2 days to chalk out, including drafting the
> > interfaces.) I'm no expert, but whenever I took a database related
> > course in my university, literally half of the CSC department would
> > crash in to watch the demonstrations. Teachers and students would
> > repeatedly inquire about my project throughout the semester, and the
> > whole faculty has repeatedly asked me to get serious in this business.
> > These are the kind of things that have got me inspired and pushed the
> > humble, stupid likes of me far enough to be seeking for your advice.
>
> Not trying to be pessimistic but what do you mean by "chalk out".  Two
> days doesn't sound like near enough time to even get close to thinking
> you have a complete ERD of the relevant entities involved.
>
> You also have a complete design of relevant interfaces in 2 days?
>
> To me at least, in 2 days you might have done some serious thinking
> about this area and just started to realize how complicated it might
> be.
>
> That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
> well as a set of business requirements.
>
>
>
> > As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
> > the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
> > advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
> > crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
> > Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
> > stupid in your context than ours.
>
> > By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
> > intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
> > illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
> > because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
> > for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
> > necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
> > people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.
>
> Start with the basic texts in the database design world.  You need to
> vary between ones that are application based and include sample
> designs and the theoretical ones.
>
> Do you know that the theoretical ones are?  I can get to work on
> monday and pick some of the best titles and books but if you take a
> look at amazon and search on "database design" you can probably get a
> good idea.
>
> > No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
> > dzn-
>
> Best of luck.

Dear hpuxrac:
Thanks, first off, for such a detailed and helpful response.
That should be the end of this string, but I feel I should clarify a
few things.

> Not trying to be pessimistic but what do you mean by "chalk out".  Two
> days doesn't sound like near enough time to even get close to thinking
> you have a complete ERD of the relevant entities involved.

> You also have a complete design of relevant interfaces in 2 days?

> To me at least, in 2 days you might have done some serious thinking
> about this area and just started to realize how complicated it might
> be.

By "chalk out"/conceptualize I precisely meant doing ERDs. Yes, I did
it; it was very big -- it took me around eight cartridge-size papers
taped together and got my back strained. But the whole thing didn't
take me more than 2 working days (~20 hrs at most) and I enjoyed it
thoroughly. And, I drafted the interface -- like this page/frame will
look like this and have these objects/forms and accept these kind of
entries, yadda yadda yadda.

> That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
> well as a set of business requirements.

I've done ERP, and maintained appropriate design standards. I don't
know what's a CRP.

And at this point, could I afford a further question? :
Is drawing ERDs and chalking out how a database application will work
(on paper) such a big deal? If it is, what do you call the guy who
does it.. the database architect or something?

> I don't recall anyone calling you horrible.

Obviously. But then you get impressions like these:

   >> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except
in
   >> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen

and not to mention pegs getting hammered into your head, and into
where-not of the issue, when you're only trying to get serious. Not
nice, and definitely gives you the impression you're off-market. Sorry
if this is only me getting affected.

Lastly, the same thing I started off with: thanks.

On Jul 1, 5:06 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> dreamznatcher wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 8:12 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> >> dreamznatcher wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> >>> need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> >>> graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> >>> driven applications, preferably for web portals.
> >>> [My questions:]
> >>> 1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> >>> profile do I fit in?
> >> You don't fit into any specific hash bucket but rather likely have
> >> the ability to morph into whichever one you wish.
>
> >> Rather than approaching it from the standpoint of "I'm a square peg
> >> which hole should I put myself in?" Turn it around and say "I am a
> >> morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy being in?"
>
> >>> 2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> >>> professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> >>> with?
> >> Best place to look is dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com, etc. But
> >> the job market today is not the job market of tomorrow. Certainly
> >> there are some things that are safer bets than others. One can
> >> essentially guarantee Oracle will still be around in 20 years whereas
> >> one can be rather certain a large number of products and companies
> >> will not be: At least not in their current form.
>
> >>> 3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> >>> optimally?
> >> Depends on what you want to be doing when you are 57 years old. The
> >> only correct answer is asking strangers is a sure road to disaster.
>
> >>> 4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
> >>> databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
> >>> mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)
> >> What country? I'm not aware of one in the US but you might want to
> >> contact Professor Carl Dudley at University of Wolverhampton with
> >> respect to the EU.
>
> >>> _Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
> >>> [I'm proficient in: ]
> >>> - Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
> >>> - Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
> >>> - Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
> >>> - HTML, DHTML, CSS
> >>> - JS, PHP
> >>> - Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
> >> To be brutally honest with you ... no you aren't. One of the things
> >> that gets me to toss a resume into the discard pile when looking at
> >> resumes is a laundry list of technologies so vast no person could
> >> possibly be competent in all of them. Above is such a list and not
> >> only are you not proficient in all of them neither is anyone else.
>
> >> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except in
> >> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>
> >> --
> >> Daniel A. Morgan
> >> University of Washington
> >> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> >> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>
> > Hello everyone,
> > (Mr Morgan and rkc on comp.databases.ms-access:)
> > I've mailed you about this a little while ago (I actually wanted to
> > post it but had clicked on "Reply to author"), but don't want to
> > bother you further on this and through your mailbox, so I'm posting
> > this here again.
>
> > Yes, I am extremely sorry for appearing so naive and having such ill
> > taste, but I tried to express my situation as honestly as possible and
> > unfortunately that's what I came up with. I do agree with you on the
> > use of the word "proficient" -- one truly cannot be that skilled in
> > anything these days. All I wanted to say was that I know a bit of
> > those stuff, enough to get my work done, and not in standards
> > considerably horrible by any means.
>
> > I don't claim that I'm bullet-proof in any of the scripting languages
> > or web stuff I've mentioned. But I do know that I can conceptualize
> > (including front-end design and dealing with constraints and integrity
> > issues) complex database-shouldered systems (here's one for you: I
> > often fiddle with the idea of creating a singular application that can
> > integrate and manage all the possible tasks, divisions and departments
> > of an organization on the scale of the EU or UN in their totality)
> > pretty fast (fast, e.g. I was working on this project that would
> > handle $30M in the national reserve, an application that would reduce
> > stagnancy of stored cash in the banking network by branching out to
> > web portals that would circulate revenue. The idea is far more
> > complicated than can be stated in a few lines, and was slated to be
> > reviewed by the Finance Ministry. If anyone of you follow the current
> > political scenario of Bangladesh, you'd know drastic political changes
> > are going about here, and the project got lost amidst more realistic
> > problems in the backdrop of a country where computer literacy accounts
> > for less than one percent. Getting back to the time factor, the whole
> > thing only took me 2 days to chalk out, including drafting the
> > interfaces.) I'm no expert, but whenever I took a database related
> > course in my university, literally half of the CSC department would
> > crash in to watch the demonstrations. Teachers and students would
> > repeatedly inquire about my project throughout the semester, and the
> > whole faculty has repeatedly asked me to get serious in this business.
> > These are the kind of things that have got me inspired and pushed the
> > humble, stupid likes of me far enough to be seeking for your advice.
>
> > As I've mentioned, I come from Bangladesh. Lots of problems abound in
> > the tech domain here: lack of books and information, near-zero
> > advanced expertise in specialized fields, sluggish bandwidth, fund
> > crises, lack of support from the government, a dearth of firsts.
> > Therefore, questions I might be asking might actually appear more
> > stupid in your context than ours.
>
> > By posting this post (the original one and this), I didn't and don't
> > intend to appear smart, or show off (I very definitely know how
> > illiterate I am in this area), or pull anyone's leg, etc. I started it
> > because I am just an average mid-career guy who feels he has a knack
> > for something and would like to pursue it, despite all odds if
> > necessary, and just want to know what the odds are in advance and from
> > people who are most certainly more knowledgable than I am.
>
> > No offence, and thank you to everyone in all earnest.
> > dzn
>
> I'm impressed: If I can help you email me at the university.
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org

Dear Mr Morgan,
Sorry for being such a bother. Thank you, I will indeed knock if I
need directions. I'm extremely grateful.

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote

 > In the learning curve of all skills and technologies
 > there is a point where one begins and they know
 > they know nothing.

Before there was any software product category for "databases," I remember 
hearing the following definition:

   Generalist: One who learns less and less about more
   and more until he knows nothing about everything.
   Specialist: One who learns more and more about less
   and less until he knows everything about nothing.

Keep us advised as to when Bob is coming to the meeting; I need a good 
reason to come to Seattle, anyway.  :-)

In a previous incarnation as a mainframer with a major computer 
manufacturer, I sometimes had the chore of reviewing applications and 
recommending who my manager should interview.  I surely passed on a lot of 
them which claimed more knowledge than was possible, just as you said.  I 
was in a contracting group in that company and our skills inventory had 
several levels -- most of us didn't even bother to put down the "1" level, 
which only meant that you'd heard of the product and had a pretty good idea 
what it was intended to do.  It was a long time ago, and I forget whether 
the top level was 5 or 10, but it meant that you had sufficient knowledge to 
modify the internals of the software product.  Anybody who had more than a 
very few products marked at that level was automatically suspect for 
"bragging".

There's a lifetime of effort, I am certain, to simply maintain competence 
with Oracle, much less to reach a level where people regard you as "expert." 
And most of the people I regard as "expert" in various disciplines prefer 
not to be called "expert", in any case.

  Larry
 

In response to "dreamznatcher" :

Looking back at your experience list, I don't think it's unreasonable to be 
"proficient" in Oracle, MySQL, and Access.  You didn't claim "expert" or 
even "specialist", after all. The _salable_ skills are most likely to be 
Oracle and/or MySQL... Oracle because it is "industrial-strength, 
heavy-dute" and MySQL because it is "free or cheap and an incredible number 
of websites support it".

The Access may not be such a "selling point" but it will let you create 
modest applications using the server DB. And, despite intense buzz about 
enterprise-level ERP and CRM (Customer Relationship Management), it is those 
small-to-modest sized applications that really keep the business processes 
going in even enterprise-level organizations.  And, with Access, you can 
crank them out before the IT department even has the first review of the 
request to prioritize it.

Just one request: read the FAQ at http://www.mvps.org/access/netiquette.htm 
for good advice on effective use of newsgroups.  The particular item of 
advice I have in mind is... quote only enough to establish the context of 
your response; it is NOT necessary that each post quote all that has gone 
before (and, particularly when the indicators of quoted material go awry as 
they have in your posts in this thread, to make it difficult or impossible 
to determine what is old, what is new, and what order in which the 
discussion proceeded).

  Larry Linson
  Microsoft Access MVP

On Jun 30, 7:15 pm, dreamznatcher <tashfeenmah...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear hpuxrac:
> Thanks, first off, for such a detailed and helpful response.
> That should be the end of this string, but I feel I should clarify a
> few things.

You are welcome.  No need to end this unless you don't want to keep it
going.  Many of these types of discussions go on and on in these
newsgroups.

snip

>
> By "chalk out"/conceptualize I precisely meant doing ERDs. Yes, I did
> it; it was very big -- it took me around eight cartridge-size papers
> taped together and got my back strained. But the whole thing didn't
> take me more than 2 working days (~20 hrs at most) and I enjoyed it
> thoroughly. And, I drafted the interface -- like this page/frame will
> look like this and have these objects/forms and accept these kind of
> entries, yadda yadda yadda.

At this point then you have to start thinking about what's wrong with
each different part of your model.  Piece by piece, entity by entity,
attribute by attribute, subtype by subtype.  There's verbal
terminology that you can use to go between each different entity.
Lots of different possible approaches to try and validate.

Interaction with business experts in each of the area's that your
model touches is key.  Plus a team approach where different people
with strengths in different areas get involved to tear apart certain
parts and build out other ones.

>
> > That's a whole lot different from having a good database design as
> > well as a set of business requirements.
>
> I've done ERP, and maintained appropriate design standards. I don't
> know what's a CRP.

Sorry maybe a typo in my post should have been CRM ( customer
relationship management systems ).

>
> And at this point, could I afford a further question? :
> Is drawing ERDs and chalking out how a database application will work
> (on paper) such a big deal? If it is, what do you call the guy who
> does it.. the database architect or something?

Is having the skills to design databases and create ERD's that one can
build scalable database applications a big deal?

Yes it is.  Job titles for people with those skills vary widely.
Sometimes they are data modelers, sometimes senior developers or
technical architects or senior dba's or application dba's.

For larger companies or bigger projects it is usually a team effort to
come up with database designs and business requirements.  There has to
be a series of efforts that constantly seek feedback with the business
community, sponsors, business process modelers and/or experts within
the business units.

Rarely does one come close with the first pass or two at an ERD.

Does this help with any perspective?

snip

>
> Obviously. But then you get impressions like these:
>
>    >> Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except
> in
>    >> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen
>
> and not to mention pegs getting hammered into your head, and into
> where-not of the issue, when you're only trying to get serious. Not
> nice, and definitely gives you the impression you're off-market. Sorry
> if this is only me getting affected.

No shortage of grumpy old men fielding questions and getting excited
over here at cdos.  Don't let it bother you and feel free to ask
questions that you want answers to.  You can always filter out
responses by people that you don't feel are contributing positive
value.

> Lastly, the same thing I started off with: thanks.

Keep the faith but also keep trying to work out what your game plan
is.

On Jun 30, 7:05 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> Bob Badour wrote:
> > He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could
> > learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so
> > he assumes everybody else is too.
>
> Are you willing to stand up in front of an audience of 200+ developers
> and DBAs, averaging 7.5 years of experience, and field live questions
> on just one of those products: The Oracle 10g database?
>
> There are a small number of us that do. Any time you want to join us
> let me know and I will give you that opportunity. It will be really
> interesting to watch you back up your words with action, at a podium
> in a lecture hall, and with no prop other than a SQL*Plus command line.
> Pick any date between August 19 and December 19, 2007.
>
> In the learning curve of all skills and technologies there is a point
> where one begins and they know they know nothing. Then they gain a
> little knowledge and they think they know it all (sort of like being
> a teenager). Some dig deeper and learn how much they really don't know.
> Perhaps Bob you are one of those that never took that final step. I've
> never met you so I don't know. But I do know that the real experts
> never make the mistake you just made.

Calling yourself an expert is not the approach I would recommend.

Usually experts are recognized by other people not by themselves.  I
am more than willing to call Tom Kyte or Cary Millsap or Jonathan
Lewis an expert.

Are you in the Foxpro development community??  This is the Oracle 
development community, unless this was cross posted to the Foxpro area..

"Gene Wirchenko" <genew@ocis.net> wrote in message 
news:q9ad83h73p4sarm3vmcd9adhbtame4d1uc@4ax.com...
> "David Cressey" <cressey73@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>Whatever else you do, don't turn 40.
>
>     It will not be for a while for me.  I am only 2E.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Gene Wirchenko
>
> Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
>     I have preferences.
>     You have biases.
>     He/She has prejudices. 

"Tony_Miller" <NoWayToday@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Are you in the Foxpro development community??  This is the Oracle 
>development community, unless this was cross posted to the Foxpro area..

     Yes, I am.

     Check the headers, and you will see that the thread has been
getting posted to comp.databases.ms-access,
comp.databases.oracle.server, and comp.databases.theory.  I am
following it from cdt.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
     I have preferences.
     You have biases.
     He/She has prejudices.

hpuxrac wrote:

> On Jun 30, 7:05 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> 
>>Bob Badour wrote:
>>
>>>He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could
>>>learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so
>>>he assumes everybody else is too.
>>
>>Are you willing to stand up in front of an audience of 200+ developers
>>and DBAs, averaging 7.5 years of experience, and field live questions
>>on just one of those products: The Oracle 10g database?
>>
>>There are a small number of us that do. Any time you want to join us
>>let me know and I will give you that opportunity. It will be really
>>interesting to watch you back up your words with action, at a podium
>>in a lecture hall, and with no prop other than a SQL*Plus command line.
>>Pick any date between August 19 and December 19, 2007.
>>
>>In the learning curve of all skills and technologies there is a point
>>where one begins and they know they know nothing. Then they gain a
>>little knowledge and they think they know it all (sort of like being
>>a teenager). Some dig deeper and learn how much they really don't know.
>>Perhaps Bob you are one of those that never took that final step. I've
>>never met you so I don't know. But I do know that the real experts
>>never make the mistake you just made.
> 
> Calling yourself an expert is not the approach I would recommend.
> 
> Usually experts are recognized by other people not by themselves.  I
> am more than willing to call Tom Kyte or Cary Millsap or Jonathan
> Lewis an expert.

Apparently Morgan's mental retardation stems from an inability to 
comprehend written english.

"hpuxrac" <johnbhurley@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

> As unfortunate as it sounds, often you learn the most from mistakes
> that you make during the design process.  Many of us have been around
> long enough and made enough mistakes ( regrettably ) that experience
> starts sounding alarms when the design has problems.

A good alternative to learning from your own mistakes is learning from the
mistakes of others.   The cost is much lower.  However, the first thing you
have to learn is not to be dismissive of other people's mistakes.  No one is
a total fool, even in this industry.  A mistake made by someone else is a
mistake made by someone who is not a total fool.

Another alternative to learning from your own mistakes is to learn the
fundamentals before you spend too much time making expensive mistakes.

While agreeing with your point about resume fluff, in all fairness, the 
person claimed he was "proficient" in those technologies, not "expert" in 
them. At what point does one become "proficient"? That's a good question. 
But I don't think one needs to be able to field live questions from an 
audience of developers in order to call oneself "proficient."

Neil

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
news:1183244627.172776@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
> Bob Badour wrote:
>
>> He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could 
>> learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so he 
>> assumes everybody else is too.
>
> Are you willing to stand up in front of an audience of 200+ developers
> and DBAs, averaging 7.5 years of experience, and field live questions
> on just one of those products: The Oracle 10g database?
>
> There are a small number of us that do. Any time you want to join us
> let me know and I will give you that opportunity. It will be really
> interesting to watch you back up your words with action, at a podium
> in a lecture hall, and with no prop other than a SQL*Plus command line.
> Pick any date between August 19 and December 19, 2007.
>
> In the learning curve of all skills and technologies there is a point 
> where one begins and they know they know nothing. Then they gain a
> little knowledge and they think they know it all (sort of like being
> a teenager). Some dig deeper and learn how much they really don't know.
> Perhaps Bob you are one of those that never took that final step. I've
> never met you so I don't know. But I do know that the real experts
> never make the mistake you just made.
>
> Your bluff and bluster have been called Bob. If you do it and can walk
> the walk I will personally reimburse your airplane ticket and hotel.
> -- 
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
> www.psoug.org 

David Cressey wrote:
> "hpuxrac" <johnbhurley@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> 
> 
>>As unfortunate as it sounds, often you learn the most from mistakes
>>that you make during the design process.  Many of us have been around
>>long enough and made enough mistakes ( regrettably ) that experience
>>starts sounding alarms when the design has problems.
> 
> A good alternative to learning from your own mistakes is learning from the
> mistakes of others.   The cost is much lower.  However, the first thing you
> have to learn is not to be dismissive of other people's mistakes.  No one is
> a total fool, even in this industry.  A mistake made by someone else is a
> mistake made by someone who is not a total fool.

Sigh. Apparently, you have not been listening. While not everyone is a 
total fool, total fools abound.


> Another alternative to learning from your own mistakes is to learn the
> fundamentals before you spend too much time making expensive mistakes.

While it is impossible to completely eliminate the former type of 
learning, one will hardly progress at all without the latter type of 
learning.

Bob Badour wrote:
> hpuxrac wrote:
> 
>> On Jun 30, 7:05 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Badour wrote:
>>>
>>>> He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could
>>>> learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so
>>>> he assumes everybody else is too.
>>>
>>> Are you willing to stand up in front of an audience of 200+ developers
>>> and DBAs, averaging 7.5 years of experience, and field live questions
>>> on just one of those products: The Oracle 10g database?
>>>
>>> There are a small number of us that do. Any time you want to join us
>>> let me know and I will give you that opportunity. It will be really
>>> interesting to watch you back up your words with action, at a podium
>>> in a lecture hall, and with no prop other than a SQL*Plus command line.
>>> Pick any date between August 19 and December 19, 2007.
>>>
>>> In the learning curve of all skills and technologies there is a point
>>> where one begins and they know they know nothing. Then they gain a
>>> little knowledge and they think they know it all (sort of like being
>>> a teenager). Some dig deeper and learn how much they really don't know.
>>> Perhaps Bob you are one of those that never took that final step. I've
>>> never met you so I don't know. But I do know that the real experts
>>> never make the mistake you just made.
>>
>> Calling yourself an expert is not the approach I would recommend.
>>
>> Usually experts are recognized by other people not by themselves.  I
>> am more than willing to call Tom Kyte or Cary Millsap or Jonathan
>> Lewis an expert.
> 
> Apparently Morgan's mental retardation stems from an inability to 
> comprehend written english.

Bob ... he mean't like this:
http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace2.html#morgan

Rather than like this:
http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace1.html#kyte
http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace1.html#lewis
http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace2.html#millsap

You see there's a difference. <g>

And I see you are unwilling to stand up in public and demonstrate your
superior skills on even a single product. Thanks for proving my point.
You can talk the talk but you can't walk the walk. As they say in Texas:
All hat.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

Neil wrote:
> While agreeing with your point about resume fluff, in all fairness, the 
> person claimed he was "proficient" in those technologies, not "expert" in 
> them. At what point does one become "proficient"? That's a good question. 
> But I don't think one needs to be able to field live questions from an 
> audience of developers in order to call oneself "proficient."
> 
> Neil

I appreciate that but to me proficiency has a higher standard than,
perhaps, for you. Would you call a DBA that writes shell scripts to
back up 10g database proficient? I wouldn't.

To quote:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proficient

pro�ficient�ly adv.
Synonyms: proficient, adept, skilled, skillful, expert
These adjectives mean having or showing knowledge, ability, or skill, as 
in a profession or field of study. Proficient implies an advanced degree 
of competence acquired through training:

Note: "advanced degree of competence acquired through training"
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
news:1183301545.936378@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
> Neil wrote:
>> While agreeing with your point about resume fluff, in all fairness, the 
>> person claimed he was "proficient" in those technologies, not "expert" in 
>> them. At what point does one become "proficient"? That's a good question. 
>> But I don't think one needs to be able to field live questions from an 
>> audience of developers in order to call oneself "proficient."
>>
>> Neil
>
> I appreciate that but to me proficiency has a higher standard than,
> perhaps, for you. Would you call a DBA that writes shell scripts to
> back up 10g database proficient? I wouldn't.
>
> To quote:
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proficient
>
> pro�ficient�ly adv.
> Synonyms: proficient, adept, skilled, skillful, expert
> These adjectives mean having or showing knowledge, ability, or skill, as 
> in a profession or field of study. Proficient implies an advanced degree 
> of competence acquired through training:
>
> Note: "advanced degree of competence acquired through training"

In the course of this thread we seem to have established at least two levels 
of DBA ability, i.e., "expert" and proficient", with proficient < expert. 
I'm sure there are all sorts of colorful names for those practitioners at 
the low end of the scale, but let's just call then "incompetent" for now. So 
we have

incompetent < proficient < expert

What do we call DBAs who are somewhere between incompetent and proficient, 
and what would their qualifications be? In general, how many levels of DBA 
ability are there, and what does one have to know/be able to do to qualify 
for each of them?

On Jul 1, 10:47 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> Bob Badour wrote:
> > hpuxrac wrote:
>
> >> On Jun 30, 7:05 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>
> >>> Bob Badour wrote:
>
> >>>> He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could
> >>>> learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so
> >>>> he assumes everybody else is too.
>
> >>> Are you willing to stand up in front of an audience of 200+ developers
> >>> and DBAs, averaging 7.5 years of experience, and field live questions
> >>> on just one of those products: The Oracle 10g database?
>
> >>> There are a small number of us that do. Any time you want to join us
> >>> let me know and I will give you that opportunity. It will be really
> >>> interesting to watch you back up your words with action, at a podium
> >>> in a lecture hall, and with no prop other than a SQL*Plus command line.
> >>> Pick any date between August 19 and December 19, 2007.
>
> >>> In the learning curve of all skills and technologies there is a point
> >>> where one begins and they know they know nothing. Then they gain a
> >>> little knowledge and they think they know it all (sort of like being
> >>> a teenager). Some dig deeper and learn how much they really don't know.
> >>> Perhaps Bob you are one of those that never took that final step. I've
> >>> never met you so I don't know. But I do know that the real experts
> >>> never make the mistake you just made.
>
> >> Calling yourself an expert is not the approach I would recommend.
>
> >> Usually experts are recognized by other people not by themselves.  I
> >> am more than willing to call Tom Kyte or Cary Millsap or Jonathan
> >> Lewis an expert.
>
> > Apparently Morgan's mental retardation stems from an inability to
> > comprehend written english.
>
> Bob ... he mean't like this:http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace2.html#morgan
>
> Rather than like this:http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace1.html#kytehttp://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace1.html#lewishttp://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace2.html#millsap
>
> You see there's a difference. <g>

No that's not what I meant.

Any vendor based recognition system is going to be biased and heavily
weighted to recognize people that promote themselves the most
aggressively at the very best.

Fill in as appropriate for what it might mean at the worst.

hpuxrac wrote:

> On Jul 1, 10:47 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> 
>>Bob Badour wrote:
>>
>>>hpuxrac wrote:
>>
>>>>On Jun 30, 7:05 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>>
>>>>>Bob Badour wrote:
>>
>>>>>>He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could
>>>>>>learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so
>>>>>>he assumes everybody else is too.
>>
>>>>>Are you willing to stand up in front of an audience of 200+ developers
>>>>>and DBAs, averaging 7.5 years of experience, and field live questions
>>>>>on just one of those products: The Oracle 10g database?
>>
>>>>>There are a small number of us that do. Any time you want to join us
>>>>>let me know and I will give you that opportunity. It will be really
>>>>>interesting to watch you back up your words with action, at a podium
>>>>>in a lecture hall, and with no prop other than a SQL*Plus command line.
>>>>>Pick any date between August 19 and December 19, 2007.
>>
>>>>>In the learning curve of all skills and technologies there is a point
>>>>>where one begins and they know they know nothing. Then they gain a
>>>>>little knowledge and they think they know it all (sort of like being
>>>>>a teenager). Some dig deeper and learn how much they really don't know.
>>>>>Perhaps Bob you are one of those that never took that final step. I've
>>>>>never met you so I don't know. But I do know that the real experts
>>>>>never make the mistake you just made.
>>
>>>>Calling yourself an expert is not the approach I would recommend.
>>
>>>>Usually experts are recognized by other people not by themselves.  I
>>>>am more than willing to call Tom Kyte or Cary Millsap or Jonathan
>>>>Lewis an expert.
>>
>>>Apparently Morgan's mental retardation stems from an inability to
>>>comprehend written english.
>>
>>Bob ... he mean't like this:http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/oracle_ace/ace2.html#morgan

Morgan confirms his inability to comprehend written english and further 
suggests a psychotic belief in mindreading abilities. Combined, those 
would certainly retard him.

Bruce C. Baker wrote:
> "DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
> news:1183301545.936378@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
>> Neil wrote:
>>> While agreeing with your point about resume fluff, in all fairness, the 
>>> person claimed he was "proficient" in those technologies, not "expert" in 
>>> them. At what point does one become "proficient"? That's a good question. 
>>> But I don't think one needs to be able to field live questions from an 
>>> audience of developers in order to call oneself "proficient."
>>>
>>> Neil
>> I appreciate that but to me proficiency has a higher standard than,
>> perhaps, for you. Would you call a DBA that writes shell scripts to
>> back up 10g database proficient? I wouldn't.
>>
>> To quote:
>> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proficient
>>
>> pro�ficient�ly adv.
>> Synonyms: proficient, adept, skilled, skillful, expert
>> These adjectives mean having or showing knowledge, ability, or skill, as 
>> in a profession or field of study. Proficient implies an advanced degree 
>> of competence acquired through training:
>>
>> Note: "advanced degree of competence acquired through training"
> 
> In the course of this thread we seem to have established at least two levels 
> of DBA ability, i.e., "expert" and proficient", with proficient < expert. 
> I'm sure there are all sorts of colorful names for those practitioners at 
> the low end of the scale, but let's just call then "incompetent" for now. So 
> we have
> 
> incompetent < proficient < expert

I'd disagree here in that there are a small percentage of people doing
anything that are incompetent. But not being proficient does not make
one incompetent. Perhaps a bit more granularity would help.

incompetent < mediocre < average < good < proficient < expert

Most people, in any field of endeavor are average. That is the meaning
of the word.

> What do we call DBAs who are somewhere between incompetent and proficient, 

See above.

> and what would their qualifications be? In general, how many levels of DBA 
> ability are there, and what does one have to know/be able to do to qualify 
> for each of them?

The incompetent DBA is not doing backups or not verifying that their 
backups can be used to restore and recover. The mediocre DBA is writing
shell scripts to do backup and tested it once. The average DBA is using
RMAN but doesn't really know the tool except to repeat, day after day,
what they did the day before. The proficient DBA, like Sybrand for
example, has knowledge of the underlying built-in packages and the
tables storing metadata in the repository. The expert writes RMAN
scripts, without the aide of websites or books, capable of making
the tool sing and dance.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
news:1183316066.496682@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
> Bruce C. Baker wrote:
>> "DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
>> news:1183301545.936378@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
>>> Neil wrote:
>>>> While agreeing with your point about resume fluff, in all fairness, the 
>>>> person claimed he was "proficient" in those technologies, not "expert" 
>>>> in them. At what point does one become "proficient"? That's a good 
>>>> question. But I don't think one needs to be able to field live 
>>>> questions from an audience of developers in order to call oneself 
>>>> "proficient."
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>> I appreciate that but to me proficiency has a higher standard than,
>>> perhaps, for you. Would you call a DBA that writes shell scripts to
>>> back up 10g database proficient? I wouldn't.
>>>
>>> To quote:
>>> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proficient
>>>
>>> pro�ficient�ly adv.
>>> Synonyms: proficient, adept, skilled, skillful, expert
>>> These adjectives mean having or showing knowledge, ability, or skill, as 
>>> in a profession or field of study. Proficient implies an advanced degree 
>>> of competence acquired through training:
>>>
>>> Note: "advanced degree of competence acquired through training"
>>
>> In the course of this thread we seem to have established at least two 
>> levels of DBA ability, i.e., "expert" and proficient", with proficient < 
>> expert. I'm sure there are all sorts of colorful names for those 
>> practitioners at the low end of the scale, but let's just call then 
>> "incompetent" for now. So we have
>>
>> incompetent < proficient < expert
>
> I'd disagree here in that there are a small percentage of people doing
> anything that are incompetent. But not being proficient does not make
> one incompetent. Perhaps a bit more granularity would help.
>
> incompetent < mediocre < average < good < proficient < expert
>
> Most people, in any field of endeavor are average. That is the meaning
> of the word.
>
>> What do we call DBAs who are somewhere between incompetent and 
>> proficient,
>
> See above.
>
>> and what would their qualifications be? In general, how many levels of 
>> DBA ability are there, and what does one have to know/be able to do to 
>> qualify for each of them?
>
> The incompetent DBA is not doing backups or not verifying that their 
> backups can be used to restore and recover. The mediocre DBA is writing
> shell scripts to do backup and tested it once. The average DBA is using
> RMAN but doesn't really know the tool except to repeat, day after day,
> what they did the day before. The proficient DBA, like Sybrand for
> example, has knowledge of the underlying built-in packages and the
> tables storing metadata in the repository. The expert writes RMAN
> scripts, without the aide of websites or books, capable of making
> the tool sing and dance.
> -- 

/Exactly/ the sort of breakdown I was looking for! Thanks.

hpuxrac wrote:

>> You see there's a difference. <g>
> 
> No that's not what I meant.

"For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his owne petar"
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

Bob Badour wrote:

> Morgan confirms his inability to comprehend written english and further 
> suggests a psychotic belief in mindreading abilities. Combined, those 
> would certainly retard him.

I missed the date you chose to come out here and be a guest lecturer at
the University of Washington. Could you please repost it.

Thanks.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

Not to pound this into the ground, but I think, with any technology, there 
are various aspects of the technology that one could be proficient in 
without being proficient in all aspects of the technology. (Perhaps one 
could postulate that being proficient in all or nearly all aspects of a 
technology might be a definition of being "expert").

When I worked onsite as a contractor, I was both involved with hiring 
individuals, and was hired by individuals. Typically, when one was looking 
for a candidate for a position, what was required was that one was 
proficient in various aspects of the technology, not all aspects. A person 
may say, "I've never done this or that, but I've done this and that," and 
that would be enough, since we weren't looking for someone "expert" in the 
technology, but merely "proficient" in the technology.

So for someone to put on their resume that they are "proficient" in a 
technology because they can work with some aspects of a technology, but not 
necessarily all aspects, is, in my opinion, very legitimate. That could be 
all that a client is looking for.

But I agree that many people put items on their resume if they just 
"breathed" on it or had the most basic of experience in it. That's 
illegitmate. But not being expert, but being proficient to perform tasks, 
even if not all tasks, is, in my opinion, a legitimate reason to put it on 
one's resume.

Neil


"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
news:1183301545.936378@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
> Neil wrote:
>> While agreeing with your point about resume fluff, in all fairness, the 
>> person claimed he was "proficient" in those technologies, not "expert" in 
>> them. At what point does one become "proficient"? That's a good question. 
>> But I don't think one needs to be able to field live questions from an 
>> audience of developers in order to call oneself "proficient."
>>
>> Neil
>
> I appreciate that but to me proficiency has a higher standard than,
> perhaps, for you. Would you call a DBA that writes shell scripts to
> back up 10g database proficient? I wouldn't.
>
> To quote:
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proficient
>
> pro�ficient�ly adv.
> Synonyms: proficient, adept, skilled, skillful, expert
> These adjectives mean having or showing knowledge, ability, or skill, as 
> in a profession or field of study. Proficient implies an advanced degree 
> of competence acquired through training:
>
> Note: "advanced degree of competence acquired through training"
> -- 
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
> www.psoug.org 

"Bruce C. Baker" <bcb@undisclosedlocation.net> wrote in message
news:DoRhi.9$Zt6.5@newsfe19.lga...


> What do we call DBAs who are somewhere between incompetent and proficient,
> and what would their qualifications be? In general, how many levels of DBA
> ability are there, and what does one have to know/be able to do to qualify
> for each of them?

"Coming up to speed"  or "associate DBAs".

DA Morgan wrote:
> The incompetent DBA is not doing backups or not verifying that their 
> backups can be used to restore and recover. The mediocre DBA is writing
> shell scripts to do backup and tested it once. The average DBA is using
> RMAN but doesn't really know the tool except to repeat, day after day,
> what they did the day before. The proficient DBA, like Sybrand for
> example, has knowledge of the underlying built-in packages and the
> tables storing metadata in the repository. The expert writes RMAN
> scripts, without the aide of websites or books, capable of making
> the tool sing and dance.

Seems a bit harsh that anyone not using oracle is at best mediocre ;-)


/Lennart

Neil wrote:
> Not to pound this into the ground, but I think, with any technology, there 
> are various aspects of the technology that one could be proficient in 
> without being proficient in all aspects of the technology. (Perhaps one 
> could postulate that being proficient in all or nearly all aspects of a 
> technology might be a definition of being "expert").

Pound away ... it is an important topic.

> When I worked onsite as a contractor, I was both involved with hiring 
> individuals, and was hired by individuals. Typically, when one was looking 
> for a candidate for a position, what was required was that one was 
> proficient in various aspects of the technology, not all aspects. A person 
> may say, "I've never done this or that, but I've done this and that," and 
> that would be enough, since we weren't looking for someone "expert" in the 
> technology, but merely "proficient" in the technology.
> 
> So for someone to put on their resume that they are "proficient" in a 
> technology because they can work with some aspects of a technology, but not 
> necessarily all aspects, is, in my opinion, very legitimate. That could be 
> all that a client is looking for.

I agree. There are part of Oracle in which I would claim proficiency and
there are others where I know I am not. For someone to write: "I am
proficient in these areas of a technology" makes perfect sense. But to
claim you are proficient in the Oracle 10g database, for example, makes
me look to see whether your last name is Jacobs or Kyte.

> But I agree that many people put items on their resume if they just 
> "breathed" on it or had the most basic of experience in it. That's 
> illegitmate. But not being expert, but being proficient to perform tasks, 
> even if not all tasks, is, in my opinion, a legitimate reason to put it on 
> one's resume.
> 
> Neil

And with this I think we have achieved at least a two person consensus.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

David Cressey wrote:
> "Bruce C. Baker" <bcb@undisclosedlocation.net> wrote in message
> news:DoRhi.9$Zt6.5@newsfe19.lga...
> 
> 
>> What do we call DBAs who are somewhere between incompetent and proficient,
>> and what would their qualifications be? In general, how many levels of DBA
>> ability are there, and what does one have to know/be able to do to qualify
>> for each of them?
> 
> "Coming up to speed"  or "associate DBAs".

Except that there are some who have been DBAs for 10+ years, have
the title Senior, and couldn't choose between a B*Tree, bitmap, bitmap
join, compressed, descending, function based, nosegment, or reverse
index if you offered them early retirement. And with 11g there will be
one more index-type added to the mix putting them even further behind.

Sorry to say but there are some people who will never come up to speed
because they are lazy and don't want to continue their education past
the final interview.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

Lennart wrote:
> DA Morgan wrote:
>> The incompetent DBA is not doing backups or not verifying that their 
>> backups can be used to restore and recover. The mediocre DBA is writing
>> shell scripts to do backup and tested it once. The average DBA is using
>> RMAN but doesn't really know the tool except to repeat, day after day,
>> what they did the day before. The proficient DBA, like Sybrand for
>> example, has knowledge of the underlying built-in packages and the
>> tables storing metadata in the repository. The expert writes RMAN
>> scripts, without the aide of websites or books, capable of making
>> the tool sing and dance.
> 
> Seems a bit harsh that anyone not using oracle is at best mediocre ;-)
> 
> 
> /Lennart

Written in comp.databases.oracle.server so it is an appropriate analogy.
There is an equally valid analogy for every other technology or field of
endeavour.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

On Jul 2, 1:51 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> Not to pound this into the ground, but I think, with any technology, there
> are various aspects of the technology that one could be proficient in
> without being proficient in all aspects of the technology. (Perhaps one
> could postulate that being proficient in all or nearly all aspects of a
> technology might be a definition of being "expert").
>
> When I worked onsite as a contractor, I was both involved with hiring
> individuals, and was hired by individuals. Typically, when one was looking
> for a candidate for a position, what was required was that one was
> proficient in various aspects of the technology, not all aspects. A person
> may say, "I've never done this or that, but I've done this and that," and
> that would be enough, since we weren't looking for someone "expert" in the
> technology, but merely "proficient" in the technology.
>
> So for someone to put on their resume that they are "proficient" in a
> technology because they can work with some aspects of a technology, but n=
ot
> necessarily all aspects, is, in my opinion, very legitimate. That could be
> all that a client is looking for.
>
> But I agree that many people put items on their resume if they just
> "breathed" on it or had the most basic of experience in it. That's
> illegitmate. But not being expert, but being proficient to perform tasks,
> even if not all tasks, is, in my opinion, a legitimate reason to put it on
> one's resume.
>
> Neil
>
> "DA Morgan" <damor...@psoug.org> wrote in message
>
> news:1183301545.936378@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
>
> > Neil wrote:
> >> While agreeing with your point about resume fluff, in all fairness, the
> >> person claimed he was "proficient" in those technologies, not "expert"=
 in
> >> them. At what point does one become "proficient"? That's a good questi=
on.
> >> But I don't think one needs to be able to field live questions from an
> >> audience of developers in order to call oneself "proficient."
>
> >> Neil
>
> > I appreciate that but to me proficiency has a higher standard than,
> > perhaps, for you. Would you call a DBA that writes shell scripts to
> > back up 10g database proficient? I wouldn't.
>
> > To quote:
> >http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proficient
>
> > pro=B7ficient=B7ly adv.
> > Synonyms: proficient, adept, skilled, skillful, expert
> > These adjectives mean having or showing knowledge, ability, or skill, as
> > in a profession or field of study. Proficient implies an advanced degree
> > of competence acquired through training:
>
> > Note: "advanced degree of competence acquired through training"
> > --
> > Daniel A. Morgan
> > University of Washington
> > damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> > Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
> >www.psoug.org

I'm really perplexed here. I never on heaven or earth could have ever
imagined a single word I used could have spawned all this...
"proficient". Who really cares, anyway, as long as (as Neil points
out) I (or anyone claiming to be proficient in any particular area)
manages to get a job done? We're all developers here, some good, some
bad; but in the end all that matters if we can deliver or not.. and
how (i.e. timeliness, accuracy, quality, interface, stability..). I
guess it's the "how" part here in the argument that's raising all the
hullabaloo.

Let's be frank and admit that avid developers are more often
perfectionists than not. We have to be on the top of the game, we have
to be top-notch; we're constantly striving to the extent of reducing
or adding a single statement among millions of lines of code for the
sake of improving the performance, quality and inner beauty (that's a
vague term to use here, isn't it? But if you would agree the equation
E =3D mc^2 is beautiful, you'll probably understand) even by a minute
bit. Why do we do all this? Why do we eat, sleep, drink and dream
code? For the last few nights, why am I always dreaming of coding the
exact block I couldn't because my body refused to remain awake
anymore? Ever since I've been working on this application, and
whenever I am ever working on anything, how does my mind always manage
to slip away from restaurants and people and traffic and fried chicken
and everything around me, to pure, hard code?

I'm sure all of you have consistently or at least at times experienced
feelings like these. I don't think it's totally because of the
constant pressure of clients, or because of the sort of crazed zeal
some folks in college exhibit in fishing for A's despite their evident
disregard for practicality and disrespect for proper understanding
(how on God's earth do some of this bunch end up with great jobs,
anyway?). To cut a long and tall story short, we're like this because
we chose to be.

So adhering to that philosophy, how do you classify proficiency or
expertise? I can't.There are thousands who fit that bill. By the
standards many of you have set out, I'm probably not even
intermediate. But then again I know what I can do and I have the
confidence that there are areas in which I could beat each and
everyone of you at your own game.. and that holds true for the
potential of each and every individual. What really drives the world?
Being great at syntax in any area -- being the perfect lawyer, the
meticulous banker, the ambitious actor, the coder who knows every nook
and cranny of the application -- are great and are greatly appreciated
in society because such proficiency offers a FORMAT that society can
read.. predict.. and regulate if necessary.

There are zillions of people alive and kicking who can know everything
by the book and deliver flawless code if given the chance... think
ahead 50 years. Won't artificial intelligence be capable of doing
that? What good are such "experts" then? If we can and believe to be
led by the idea that simply delievering according to a set of
regulations (however big that set might be) proves us "proficient",
where does the value of knowledge stand? And whatever on earth happens
to creativity?

I remember a faculty member in our university never allowed closed
book exams; he argued that if someone can solve a problem in 20 mins
while it takes someone else 200, it doesn't mean either of the two are
better. I dare say (and thank God I've admitted my limitations) I know
far less than most of you about Oracle or just about any language or
rdbms I mentioned. Fair enough. Now give me a chance: let me learn.

Give me the kind of schooling you get at Stanford (someone mentioned
Stanford for databases), buy me the software (okay, I'll buy it but I
don't have a credit card so even if I had the money it would still be
unattainable) and let me enter a good library (you won't believe this:
there are hardly 3-4 titles on databases available in this country).
Then, give me some time (a few months to a few years) and come back.
I'm sure I won't be a poor challenger. Once again, I'm not bragging
here. I'm talking about any average Joe here. Just about any guy who
wants to learn and is willing to work hard. And mind you there are
millions of such people out there.

But what good would I be among such a huge pool of "experts"? True,
there's plenty of fodder for everyone. And of course I don't intend to
say experts are useless or unimportant. I started this post, and
wanted to make a point (which applies to myself and I'm sure it does
for many others as well): I might not be able to code as well as most
of you, but I feel I can IMAGINE database-driven applications; I have
the faith that in a world already crammed with godzillion bytes of
code I still might be able to tell you of software and programs that
are yet to be built. Just because I don't have the language to express
my idea doesn't mean I'm blind or that I immediately fall into a sub-
standard category. If I can tell what the thing will be like, there
will be always people capable of building it.

What I was looking for here was assistance -- making me find my voice
so that I can transform the vague ideas I have into reality. That
intention has been partially satisfied with some really informative
and enlightening posts. I'll repeat my primary message here, as
trimmed down as possible: I can draw any ERD you'll ask me to,
probably fast enough to get a few people impressed. What should I do
with this ability? What should I specifically learn? What job might
this proficiency... just kidding, ability... get me?

Same questions, in a new bottle and with added vigour. Still, answers
would be greatly appreciated.

A point to be noted:
It's natural people will have different views. Some might be overtly
confident about his or her knowledge and that might not even be a bad
thing. For others a different mechanism might be at play. Isn't that
all part of the gene pool? Why the whole fuss and the philosophy?
Leave Morgan to his view; I don't think he's entirely wrong.
Classifications of expertise do exist and are prevalent in society.
Think about the scale that determines your paycheck. Leave Bob alone
too. He's talking in his own spirit, just as we all are. What's the
big fuss?

What if proficiency or expertise go down in history as undecided and
undefined terms? Could you ever define the most centrifugal terms of
our consciousness... love, hate, pain, life? No programming language
could ever reciprocate the beauty of a monsoon breeze or the echo in
the hollow of your heart. We're here to admire all that, and create
our own incarnations of beauty. And one day, perhaps we'll find out
why God chose us to be.

Someday, looking back, historians will certainly look back (they've
already started) and classify the 21st century as the age of
intolerance. Whatever category of expertise we fall into, let's not
get tagged into that compartment.

Sorry for such a long post. Reminder: some questions included in
thread.

DA Morgan wrote:
[...]
> 
> Written in comp.databases.oracle.server so it is an appropriate analogy.

and crossposted to comp.databases.theory where the analogy is as 
appropriate as the thread itself. No offence. I was just a bit amused 
thinking of some people who definitely dont use RMAN, and I dont think 
deserves to be called mediocre.

> There is an equally valid analogy for every other technology or field of
> endeavour.

agreed.

/Lennart

>>I'm really perplexed here. I never on heaven or earth could have ever
imagined a single word I used could have spawned all this...<<

Look, you're dealing with a bunch of techno-nerds here. Anything's possible. 
We can take the smallest point and turn it into a major discussion. It's 
kind of what we do (focus on little details and make sure they're accurate). 
If we didn't focus unduly on little details, well, most software wouldn't 
run.

>>"proficient". Who really cares, anyway, as long as (as Neil points
out) I (or anyone claiming to be proficient in any particular area)
manages to get a job done? We're all developers here, some good, some
bad; but in the end all that matters if we can deliver or not.. and
how (i.e. timeliness, accuracy, quality, interface, stability..). I
guess it's the "how" part here in the argument that's raising all the
hullabaloo.<<

I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow excrement for 
putting those things on your resume. So, the question is: at what point can 
one put things on one's resume? Does one have to be expert in a technology 
in order to put it on one's resume? Or does a proficiency in some areas of a 
technology warrant putting it on one's resume?

>>(okay, I'll buy it but I
don't have a credit card so even if I had the money it would still be
unattainable)<<

Open a PayPal account. Then you can obtain it.

>> and let me enter a good library (you won't believe this:
there are hardly 3-4 titles on databases available in this country).<<

So much is on the web these days. And with Google Books, it's just growing 
by the minute.

>>Sorry for such a long post. Reminder: some questions included in
thread.<<

A word of advice: I hope you can code more succinctly than you write! (Just 
kidding.....)

Neil

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote

 > Written in comp.databases.oracle.server so it
 > is an appropriate analogy. There is an equally
 > valid analogy for every other technology or
 > field of endeavour.

I took your post to have that meaning, but it was cross-posted to 
comp.databases.ms-access where the definitions would be somewhat different. 
I've known a few people who created Access client applications for Oracle 
servers, some of whom I would consider "expert" in Access, who didn't write 
RMAN.

  Larry Linson
  Microsoft Access MVP 

Bob Badour <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could 
>learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so 
>he assumes everybody else is too.

That is a rather harsh comment.  

Tony
-- 
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
   Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can 
read the entire thread of messages.
   Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at 
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
   Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/

dreamznatcher wrote:

> I'm really perplexed here. I never on heaven or earth could have ever
> imagined a single word I used could have spawned all this...
> "proficient".

Words have meaning and since this isn't a conversation where we can
read facial expressions we are left with nothing but the literal word.

  Who really cares, anyway, as long as (as Neil points
> out) I (or anyone claiming to be proficient in any particular area)
> manages to get a job done?

I do. I do a lot. And I completely disagree.

Someone writing this can get the job done:

  BEGIN
   FOR r IN (SELECT * FROM parent)
   LOOP
     r.part_num := r.part_num * 10;
     INSERT INTO child
     VALUES
     (r.part_num, r.part_name);
   END LOOP;
   COMMIT;
END slow_way;
/

I guarantee you it will get the job done. And I would consider the
person that wrote it mediocre or worse if they didn't write it as an
example of bad code.

> We're all developers here, some good, some
> bad; but in the end all that matters if we can deliver or not.. and
> how (i.e. timeliness, accuracy, quality, interface, stability..). I
> guess it's the "how" part here in the argument that's raising all the
> hullabaloo.

Again I disagree. What matters after one passes the test for minimal
competency is does it meet the SLA. Is it secure, for example from
SQL Injection, does it minimize disk i/o, does it minimize parses,
does it minimize undo. These are not things done by those who consider
SQLCODE = 0 a success.

> Let's be frank and admit that avid developers are more often
> perfectionists than not. We have to be on the top of the game, we have
> to be top-notch;

I couldn't disagree more. Avid <> Competent. And the number of those who
are at the "top of the game," in my experience, does not justify your
enthusiasm.

> So adhering to that philosophy, how do you classify proficiency or
> expertise? I can't.

What's wrong with accepting the definition of the word as defined in
the dictionary? Have you considered a career in politics? <g>

> There are zillions of people alive and kicking who can know everything
> by the book and deliver flawless code if given the chance... 

Not to be rude here but ... no there are not.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

"dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183326800.623379.185720@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 2, 1:51 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> I'm really perplexed here. I never on heaven or earth could have ever
> imagined a single word I used could have spawned all this...


Most of this is due to the rantings of DA Morgan, and to responses to them.
Morgan seems to have proposed a standard of proficiency that involves
addressing an audience of 200 of one's peers, taking questions on the fly,
and using SQL-Plus to express the answers.

There's a simple explanation for this:  he's trying to "out alpha"  another
regular.  If you'll look at the history of his contributions, you'll
understand.

Tony Toews [MVP] wrote:
> Bob Badour <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 
>> He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could 
>> learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so 
>> he assumes everybody else is too.
> 
> That is a rather harsh comment.  
> 
> Tony

That's ok: It is always a amusing to watch an adult stoop to the level
of elementary school insults in a public forum.

How about it Bob? An opportunity to lecture in the Paul G. Allen
Computing Center on the campus of the University of Washington:
Fall Quarter 2007. How can you ignore such a wonderful opportunity to
prove your competence?

Last chance ... going once ... going twice ... zzzzzzzzzzz
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

David Cressey wrote:
> "dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1183326800.623379.185720@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 2, 1:51 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> 
>> I'm really perplexed here. I never on heaven or earth could have ever
>> imagined a single word I used could have spawned all this...
> 
> 
> Most of this is due to the rantings of DA Morgan, and to responses to them.
> Morgan seems to have proposed a standard of proficiency that involves
> addressing an audience of 200 of one's peers, taking questions on the fly,
> and using SQL-Plus to express the answers.
> 
> There's a simple explanation for this:  he's trying to "out alpha"  another
> regular.  If you'll look at the history of his contributions, you'll
> understand.

Not another regular ... or I'd agree with you and would never have
written what I did.

The word proficiency has a dictionary definition. That is what the word
means. If you wish to redefine it take it up with Daniel Webster not
Daniel Morgan. <g>

Enough of this thead. Last word is yours if you wish it.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

On Jul 2, 12:55 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:

> I do. I do a lot. And I completely disagree.

That's fine, Morgan. I was only suggesting everyone has a subjective
view, including you, me and just about anyone. You're perfectly
entitled to think in that fashion as a human being, just as I am to
disagree. No offense intended to anyone.

> Someone writing this can get the job done:
 > [some bad code] ...
> I guarantee you it will get the job done. And I would consider the
> person that wrote it mediocre or worse if they didn't write it as an
> example of bad code.

You're right, but what if the client has worse taste? Anything is
possible. But yeah, I do agree, that's pretty bad code.

> Again I disagree. What matters after one passes the test for minimal
> competency is does it meet the SLA. Is it secure, for example from
> SQL Injection, does it minimize disk i/o, does it minimize parses,
> does it minimize undo. These are not things done by those who consider
> SQLCODE = 0 a success.

Again, I agree, and thrice times over. But I don't want to introduce a
new debate on "competence" here. Unfortunately, this isn't my debate
as I realize the question's I asked haven't been answered. You came up
with a pretty response the last time, so this is for the others.

> I couldn't disagree more. Avid <> Competent. And the number of those who
> are at the "top of the game," in my experience, does not justify your
> enthusiasm.

Okay, fine with me, but then again that's how I feel and I have a
right to feel that way.

> What's wrong with accepting the definition of the word as defined in
> the dictionary? Have you considered a career in politics? <g>

I don't have a problem. As you may realize, it's not me who started
this "proficiency" issue. As for dictionary definitions, you (and
everyone) should realize that the world of definitions and terminology
doesn't end with pocket or concise versions of well-known
dictionaries. For instance, there's a "shorter" version of the Oxford
dictionary that has two really fat and large volumes. The real (i.e.
complete) Oxford dictionary spans 20+ really fat and large volumes.
Delve that deep into wordplay and you're bound to find out synonyms
are easily misinterpreted and overestimated.

>Have you considered a career in politics? <g>

Why does the question even pop-up? Your or just about anyone's
knowledge, feeling and judgments don't determine what's right or
proper regarding any issue.

> > There are zillions of people alive and kicking who can know everything
> > by the book and deliver flawless code if given the chance...

Read: I said who can know "everything by the book" and "deliver
flawless code". The first case is difficult, but not impossible. I
believe you really learn about things when you engage in a hands-on
experience. Dennis Ritchie commented 20 years after he developed the
language: "I'm still learning C". That's my kind of perspective, and
maybe you share that to some extent. Heck, it's easy to learn
everything what's on print, but it's what's not on print that's hard
to  learn. Since we're all happy about words here, there's a word for
it: experience.

"deliver flawless code": code that simply is bug-free, adheres more or
less to standards and does the trick.

Note: I believe guys like you and many other pounding this thread go
beyond that category. Surely with so many years behind your belt
("experience" again) you're better than that, full stop.

> Not to be rude here but ... no there are not.

As you realize, knowers of everything by the book and deliverers of
flawless code aren't really that proficient or expert by your
standards. Whether or not you believe that there are many people
("zillions" was definitely being casual, not a literal statement, read
"many" instead) who have it in them to take that level of proficiency
or expertise to the next level if they're provided with better
opportunities to hone their skills -- is your philosophy.

Once again, for anyone else reading this post: my questions from the
previous post.

On Jul 2, 5:23 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> Look, you're dealing with a bunch of techno-nerds here. Anything's possible.
> We can take the smallest point and turn it into a major discussion. It's
> kind of what we do (focus on little details and make sure they're accurate).
> If we didn't focus unduly on little details, well, most software wouldn't
> run.

You think I haven't realized that already? :)

> I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow excrement for
> putting those things on your resume. So, the question is: at what point can
> one put things on one's resume? Does one have to be expert in a technology
> in order to put it on one's resume? Or does a proficiency in some areas of a
> technology warrant putting it on one's resume?

I don't care to what extent others might stoop to and it's clearly not
my problem. I have questions and I'll try my best to get my answers.
I'm not here to make friends with people so that they'll invite me
over for a cup of tea. Since most people around here are more bothered
with levels of proficiency and who the upstart I might be, here's the
questions again:

Fact: I can draw any ERD you'll ask me to, and fast.
Questions: What should I do with this ability? What should I
specifically learn? What job might
this ability get me?

And yes, consider me a novice, amateur, intermediate, proficient,
expert.. whatever that might please you. But those (aforementioned)
the fact and questions I'm putting up.

>>(okay, I'll buy it but I don't have a credit card
>>so even if I had the money it would still be
>> unattainable)
>
> Open a PayPal account. Then you can obtain it.

Read: "even if I had the money". I.e., I don't. Sorry to disappoint in
so many areas.

> So much is on the web these days. And with Google Books, it's just growing
> by the minute.

Sure, but you should come and checkout the bandwidth over here. Again,
sorry to disappoint. With so many drawbacks I'm mentioning, and with
the persistence that I am consistently asking the questions only
prove: I'm desperate, I really want to find my line. Might no seem a
complex problem to many, but for me it's an issue that might turn
around my life.

> A word of advice: I hope you can code more succinctly than you write! (Just
> kidding.....)

Nah, I don't, unfortunately. I have 3 books and over hundreds of
articles published.
Thanks for responding.

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message
news:1183360332.526869@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
> David Cressey wrote:
> > "dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1183326800.623379.185720@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jul 2, 1:51 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm really perplexed here. I never on heaven or earth could have ever
> >> imagined a single word I used could have spawned all this...
> >
> >
> > Most of this is due to the rantings of DA Morgan, and to responses to
them.
> > Morgan seems to have proposed a standard of proficiency that involves
> > addressing an audience of 200 of one's peers, taking questions on the
fly,
> > and using SQL-Plus to express the answers.
> >
> > There's a simple explanation for this:  he's trying to "out alpha"
another
> > regular.  If you'll look at the history of his contributions, you'll
> > understand.
>
> Not another regular ... or I'd agree with you and would never have
> written what I did.

Bob Badour is a regular in news:comp.databases.theory and if the thread had
not been crossposted there, I doubt that Bob would have responded.

>
> The word proficiency has a dictionary definition. That is what the word
> means. If you wish to redefine it take it up with Daniel Webster not

Your proposition to Bob does not follow from the dictionary definition of
"proficient",  and my reaction to your proposition does not constitute
redefining the word.

> Enough of this thead. Last word is yours if you wish it.

Yes. I wish it.  The two of us cannot, by ourselves, end the thread, but we
can reduce the number of participants by two.  I'm done.  The last word can
be somebody else's.

"Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:4687f02c$0$4328$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
>
> inability to comprehend written english

Is that different to English? 

"David Cressey" <cressey73@verizon.net> wrote in message 
news:Qo4ii.2660$Nw5.1367@trndny04...
>
>  The last word can
> be somebody else's.
>

Blancmange ;-) 

Tony Toews [MVP] wrote:
> Bob Badour <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 
>>He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could 
>>learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so 
>>he assumes everybody else is too.
> 
> That is a rather harsh comment.  
> 
> Tony

Harsh but accurate.

Keith Wilby wrote:

> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
> news:4687f02c$0$4328$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> 
>> inability to comprehend written english
> 
> Is that different to English?

English is not a single language. Written english is different from 
spoken english. Different parts of the brain process each, and it is 
quite possible for an individual to comprehend spoken english who cannot 
make any sense of written english whatsoever.

I have no information by which to evaluate Morgan's comprehension of 
spoken english so I can only draw conclusions regarding his 
comprehension of written english.

"Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:46890166$0$4325$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> Keith Wilby wrote:
>
>> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
>> news:4687f02c$0$4328$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
>>
>>> inability to comprehend written english
>>
>> Is that different to English?
>
> English is not a single language. Written english is different from spoken 
> english.

That's as maybe but, as a noun the word "English" is *always* spelt with a 
capital "E".  One shouldn't throw stones from a glass house. 

Keith Wilby wrote:

> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
> news:46890166$0$4325$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> 
>> Keith Wilby wrote:
>>
>>> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
>>> news:4687f02c$0$4328$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
>>>
>>>> inability to comprehend written english
>>>
>>>
>>> Is that different to English?
>>
>>
>> English is not a single language. Written english is different from 
>> spoken english.
> 
> 
> That's as maybe but, as a noun the word "English" is *always* spelt with 
> a capital "E".  One shouldn't throw stones from a glass house.

Your assertion is quite obviously false, because it isn't spelled that 
way when I spell it.

>>> inability to comprehend written english
>>
>> Is that different to English?
>
> English is not a single language. Written english is different from spoken 
> english. Different parts of the brain process each, and it is quite 
> possible for an individual to comprehend spoken english who cannot make 
> any sense of written english whatsoever.
>
> I have no information by which to evaluate Morgan's comprehension of 
> spoken english so I can only draw conclusions regarding his comprehension 
> of written english.

Keith was gently pointing out that the word "English" is a proper noun. 
Proper nouns should always be capitalized, even if your name is e.e. 
cummings.  ;-)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
Blogs: www.DataDevilDog.BlogSpot.com, www.DatabaseTips.BlogSpot.com
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact 
info.

"Keith Wilby" <here@there.com> wrote in message 
news:468914aa_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
> news:46890166$0$4325$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
>> Keith Wilby wrote:
>>
>>> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
>>> news:4687f02c$0$4328$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
>>>
>>>> inability to comprehend written english
>>>
>>> Is that different to English?
>>
>> English is not a single language. Written english is different from 
>> spoken english.
>
> That's as maybe but, as a noun the word "English" is *always* spelt with a 
> capital "E".  One shouldn't throw stones from a glass house.

Well, since you advocate not throwing stones from a glass house, I'll just 
state that your statement should have been, "Is that different *from* 
English."  "Is that different *to* English" makes no sense, and is, well, 
bad English.

Just keepin' it real, yo. 

>> I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow excrement 
>> for
>> putting those things on your resume. So, the question is: at what point 
>> can
>> one put things on one's resume? Does one have to be expert in a 
>> technology
>> in order to put it on one's resume? Or does a proficiency in some areas 
>> of a
>> technology warrant putting it on one's resume?
>
> I don't care to what extent others might stoop to and it's clearly not
> my problem. I have questions and I'll try my best to get my answers.
> I'm not here to make friends with people so that they'll invite me
> over for a cup of tea. Since most people around here are more bothered
> with levels of proficiency and who the upstart I might be, here's the
> questions again:

I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to be 
honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience, 
with the intent of helping you. At the end he wrote, "Lists like this create 
an immediate negative impression except in
HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>" He was trying to give 
you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume. The 
conversation then snowballed into an abstract discussion about what is or 
isn't proficiency.

No one here really cares if you're proficient or not. We don't think you're 
an "upstart." You're just a guy posting in a newsgroup. No one is threatened 
by you. This whole discussion was not about you at all. It was about what is 
or isn't proficiency, in general, not about whether or not you're 
proficient. No one really cares if you're proficient. It doesn't affect us 
at all.

So I think you need to take yourself a little less seriously, if you want 
some friendly advice.

>>>(okay, I'll buy it but I don't have a credit card
>>>so even if I had the money it would still be
>>> unattainable)
>>
>> Open a PayPal account. Then you can obtain it.
>
> Read: "even if I had the money". I.e., I don't. Sorry to disappoint in
> so many areas.

I did read that. But I think you were taking the "woe is me" thing a bit too 
far by saying that "even if you had the money" you couldn't buy it because 
you "don't have a credit card." I was showing you that you can buy over the 
Internet without a credit card if and when you ever get the money. Just 
correcting your false statement that you wouldn't be able to buy it "even if 
you had the money."

>
>> So much is on the web these days. And with Google Books, it's just 
>> growing
>> by the minute.
>
> Sure, but you should come and checkout the bandwidth over here. Again,
> sorry to disappoint.

Listen, you're not disappointing! Why would I be disappointed? Like my life 
is wrapped around whether or not you have bandwidth?? Amazing.

Anyway, yes, you're at a disadvantage. I realize that. But people do get by 
with disadvantages. It might take you longer to browse. Or you might have to 
download what you're going to read or wait for it to buffer. A little more 
difficult, but doable.

> With so many drawbacks I'm mentioning, and with
> the persistence that I am consistently asking the questions only
> prove: I'm desperate, I really want to find my line. Might no seem a
> complex problem to many, but for me it's an issue that might turn
> around my life.

Here's my advice to you: get out there and do something. Once you start 
doing something related to programming, you'll find other stuff to do, and 
other stuff to do. And wherever you work, they'll probably have technical 
resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, etc. 
Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half as 
good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).

None of us started out saying, "OK, I'm going to specialize in this and that 
and that. And I'm going to learned these technologies and then use them for 
the next 10 years." None of us did. What we did do is get out there and 
start using the technologies that we knew, and, from there, learned more 
technologies. Just get out there and start doing something. :-)

>> A word of advice: I hope you can code more succinctly than you write! 
>> (Just
>> kidding.....)
>
> Nah, I don't, unfortunately. I have 3 books and over hundreds of
> articles published.

Well there you go. So you should be able to find a job. If you can't, then I 
don't know what to say.

Neil 

'69 Camaro wrote:

>>>>inability to comprehend written english
>>>
>>>Is that different to English?
>>
>>English is not a single language. Written english is different from spoken 
>>english. Different parts of the brain process each, and it is quite 
>>possible for an individual to comprehend spoken english who cannot make 
>>any sense of written english whatsoever.
>>
>>I have no information by which to evaluate Morgan's comprehension of 
>>spoken english so I can only draw conclusions regarding his comprehension 
>>of written english.
> 
> 
> Keith was gently pointing out that the word "English" is a proper noun. 
> Proper nouns should always be capitalized, even if your name is e.e. 
> cummings.  ;-)
> 
> HTH.
> Gunny

Since english is neither a person nor a place nor an event, and since 
one can limit it with modifiers like any and some as in "She speaks some 
english, and he doesn't speak any english", I respectfully disagree.

"Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:GFaii.23715$C96.11802@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>
> >> I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow
excrement
> >> for
> >> putting those things on your resume. So, the question is: at what point
> >> can
> >> one put things on one's resume? Does one have to be expert in a
> >> technology
> >> in order to put it on one's resume? Or does a proficiency in some areas
> >> of a
> >> technology warrant putting it on one's resume?
> >
> > I don't care to what extent others might stoop to and it's clearly not
> > my problem. I have questions and I'll try my best to get my answers.
> > I'm not here to make friends with people so that they'll invite me
> > over for a cup of tea. Since most people around here are more bothered
> > with levels of proficiency and who the upstart I might be, here's the
> > questions again:
>
> I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to be
> honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience,
> with the intent of helping you. At the end he wrote, "Lists like this
create
> an immediate negative impression except in
> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>" He was trying to give
> you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume. The
> conversation then snowballed into an abstract discussion about what is or
> isn't proficiency.
>

I think his advice is dead wrong, by the way.  Most HR departments are NOT
staffed by IT professionals.  Their evaluation of resumes is more likely to
be driven by whether the resume meets ALL the minimum criteria established
for the job.  If the job calls for XYZ proficiency, and the resume doesn't
say XYZ proficiency, it gets pitched.  As to whether the candidate's
proficiency rises to the level expected for the job,  that doesn't happen
until later in the selection process.

>> Keith was gently pointing out that the word "English" is a proper noun. 
>> Proper nouns should always be capitalized, even if your name is e.e. 
>> cummings.  ;-)

> Since english is neither a person nor a place nor an event, and since one 
> can limit it with modifiers like any and some as in "She speaks some 
> english, and he doesn't speak any english", I respectfully disagree.

A proper noun is a noun which names a particular person, place, or thing. 
The English language is a particular language.  Language is a thing, so any 
particular language should be capitalized, such as French, German, Chinese, 
et cetera.  Derivatives of proper nouns are capitalized when used in their 
primary sense, such as English saddle, but not when used for a specialized 
meaning, such as french fries or chinaware.

Check your dictionary or online English grammar guide for proper usage:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=English+grammar&btnG=Google+Search

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
Blogs: www.DataDevilDog.BlogSpot.com, www.DatabaseTips.BlogSpot.com
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact 
info.

>>>>> inability to comprehend written english
>>>>
>>>> Is that different to English?
>>>
>>> English is not a single language. Written english is different from 
>>> spoken english.
>>
>> That's as maybe but, as a noun the word "English" is *always* spelt with 
>> a capital "E".  One shouldn't throw stones from a glass house.
>
> Well, since you advocate not throwing stones from a glass house, I'll just 
> state that your statement should have been, "Is that different *from* 
> English."  "Is that different *to* English" makes no sense, and is, well, 
> bad English.

"Different to" is the British usage and has been since before Shakespeare's 
time.  If you check _Chambers Dictionary_ (1998), you'll find the following 
usage for the word "different":  with _from_, also with _to_ and (_esp US_) 
_than_.  If you check _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary_ (11th 
Edition), a common U.S. dictionary, only "different from" and "different 
than" are mentioned in the usage section of the entry for the word 
"different."

If you don't have a British dictionary handy, then please see the following 
Web page for the entry for _The Columbia Guide to Standard American English_ 
for the correct usage of the word "different":

http://www.bartleby.com/68/37/1837.html

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
Blogs: www.DataDevilDog.BlogSpot.com, www.DatabaseTips.BlogSpot.com
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact 
info.

On Jul 1, 3:04 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> hpuxrac wrote:
> >> You see there's a difference. <g>
>
> > No that's not what I meant.
>
> "For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
> Hoist with his owne petar"
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org

More spam?

'69 Camaro wrote:

>>>Keith was gently pointing out that the word "English" is a proper noun. 
>>>Proper nouns should always be capitalized, even if your name is e.e. 
>>>cummings.  ;-)
> 
>>Since english is neither a person nor a place nor an event, and since one 
>>can limit it with modifiers like any and some as in "She speaks some 
>>english, and he doesn't speak any english", I respectfully disagree.
> 
> A proper noun is a noun which names a particular person, place, or thing. 
> The English language is a particular language.

Interestingly, in "the english language", english is an adjective and 
not a noun at all.

Skill is a thing, and cocksucking is a particular skill. Does that mean 
we should always capitalize Cocksucking?

English is a proper noun when it names the people of England in contrast 
to the Welsh and the Scottish, but I did not use it as the proper name 
of the people of England.

[snip]

>>>>Keith was gently pointing out that the word "English" is a proper noun. 
>>>>Proper nouns should always be capitalized, even if your name is e.e. 
>>>>cummings.  ;-)
>>
>>>Since english is neither a person nor a place nor an event, and since one 
>>>can limit it with modifiers like any and some as in "She speaks some 
>>>english, and he doesn't speak any english", I respectfully disagree.
>>
>> A proper noun is a noun which names a particular person, place, or thing. 
>> The English language is a particular language.
>
> Interestingly, in "the english language", english is an adjective and not 
> a noun at all.

You snipped the relevant part of my previous message:  "Derivatives of 
proper nouns are capitalized when used in their primary sense, such as 
English saddle, but not when used for a specialized meaning, such as french 
fries or chinaware."  "English language" is a derivative of the noun 
English, which is a proper noun.

Check your dictionary again.  Mine shows the following:

     English _adj._ of, relating to, or characteristic of England, the 
English people, or the English language.

Note that in no case is English typed in lower case when modifying the noun 
that follows it in this dictionary entry.  I'm sure your dictionary shows 
something very similar, if it's not verbatim.

> English is a proper noun when it names the people of England in contrast 
> to the Welsh and the Scottish, but I did not use it as the proper name of 
> the people of England.

Check your standard English dictionary.  There are no entries for the word 
English (even when used to modify a noun) where the word English is in lower 
case.  As noted above, "English" when used as a noun should always 
capitalized, because it is a proper noun, and its derivatives should also be 
capitalized when used in a primary sense.  "English language" is used in the 
primary sense, but the word "language" doesn't have to be included for the 
reader to understand that "English," in the context that we've been 
discussing, means the "English language."

> Interestingly, in "the english language", english is an adjective and not 
> a noun at all.

For future reference, commas and periods should always be placed inside the 
quotation marks, with the exception of when the sentence is a question that 
contains a quote.  The question mark is placed outside of the quotation 
marks and the punctuation that would have been placed within the quotation 
marks is skipped.

http://ur.rutgers.edu/styleguide/punctuation.shtml

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
Blogs: www.DataDevilDog.BlogSpot.com, www.DatabaseTips.BlogSpot.com
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact 
info.

'69 Camaro wrote:

>>>>>Keith was gently pointing out that the word "English" is a proper noun. 
>>>>>Proper nouns should always be capitalized, even if your name is e.e. 
>>>>>cummings.  ;-)
>>>
>>>>Since english is neither a person nor a place nor an event, and since one 
>>>>can limit it with modifiers like any and some as in "She speaks some 
>>>>english, and he doesn't speak any english", I respectfully disagree.
>>>
>>>A proper noun is a noun which names a particular person, place, or thing. 
>>>The English language is a particular language.
>>
>>Interestingly, in "the english language", english is an adjective and not 
>>a noun at all.
> 
> You snipped the relevant part of my previous message:  "Derivatives of 
> proper nouns are capitalized when used in their primary sense, such as 
> English saddle, but not when used for a specialized meaning, such as french 
> fries or chinaware."  "English language" is a derivative of the noun 
> English, which is a proper noun.
> 
> Check your dictionary again.  Mine shows the following:
> 
>      English _adj._ of, relating to, or characteristic of England, the 
> English people, or the English language.
> 
> Note that in no case is English typed in lower case when modifying the noun 
> that follows it in this dictionary entry.  I'm sure your dictionary shows 
> something very similar, if it's not verbatim.
> 
> 
>>English is a proper noun when it names the people of England in contrast 
>>to the Welsh and the Scottish, but I did not use it as the proper name of 
>>the people of England.
> 
> 
> Check your standard English dictionary.

I did, and english is not always capitalized like it is in your standard 
english dictionary.

'69 Camaro wrote:

>>>>>Keith was gently pointing out that the word "English" is a proper noun. 
>>>>>Proper nouns should always be capitalized, even if your name is e.e. 
>>>>>cummings.  ;-)
>>>
>>>>Since english is neither a person nor a place nor an event, and since one 
>>>>can limit it with modifiers like any and some as in "She speaks some 
>>>>english, and he doesn't speak any english", I respectfully disagree.
>>>
>>>A proper noun is a noun which names a particular person, place, or thing. 
>>>The English language is a particular language.
>>
>>Interestingly, in "the english language", english is an adjective and not 
>>a noun at all.
> 
> 
> You snipped the relevant part of my previous message:  "Derivatives of 
> proper nouns are capitalized when used in their primary sense, such as 
> English saddle, but not when used for a specialized meaning, such as french 
> fries or chinaware."  "English language" is a derivative of the noun 
> English, which is a proper noun.
> 
> Check your dictionary again.  Mine shows the following:

What does your dictionary say about capitalizing Cocksucking as the 
proper name of a skill?

"Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:46896648$0$4321$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...

> What does your dictionary say about capitalizing Cocksucking as the proper 
> name of a skill?

It says people who use this word in public are always men who wear a 
well-padded codpiece to hide their shortcomings.

Gunny 

>> Check your standard English dictionary.
>
> I did, and english is not always capitalized like it is in your standard 
> english dictionary.

Which standard English dictionary are you using, and what year was it 
published?

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
Blogs: www.DataDevilDog.BlogSpot.com, www.DatabaseTips.BlogSpot.com
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact 
info.

> "Different to" is the British usage and has been since before 
> Shakespeare's time.  If you check _Chambers Dictionary_ (1998), you'll 
> find the following usage for the word "different":  with _from_, also with 
> _to_ and (_esp US_) _than_.  If you check _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate 
> Dictionary_ (11th Edition), a common U.S. dictionary, only "different 
> from" and "different than" are mentioned in the usage section of the entry 
> for the word "different."
>

Two points.

One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.

And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have lost 
their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.

So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway, I suggest 
you learn proper American English, and learn how to talk good. That's what I 
say!

Neil 

David Cressey wrote:
> "Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:GFaii.23715$C96.11802@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>>>> I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow
> excrement
>>>> for
>>>> putting those things on your resume. So, the question is: at what point
>>>> can
>>>> one put things on one's resume? Does one have to be expert in a
>>>> technology
>>>> in order to put it on one's resume? Or does a proficiency in some areas
>>>> of a
>>>> technology warrant putting it on one's resume?
>>> I don't care to what extent others might stoop to and it's clearly not
>>> my problem. I have questions and I'll try my best to get my answers.
>>> I'm not here to make friends with people so that they'll invite me
>>> over for a cup of tea. Since most people around here are more bothered
>>> with levels of proficiency and who the upstart I might be, here's the
>>> questions again:
>> I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to be
>> honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience,
>> with the intent of helping you. At the end he wrote, "Lists like this
> create
>> an immediate negative impression except in
>> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>" He was trying to give
>> you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume. The
>> conversation then snowballed into an abstract discussion about what is or
>> isn't proficiency.
>>
> 
> I think his advice is dead wrong, by the way.  Most HR departments are NOT
> staffed by IT professionals.

I didn't say they were.

I said: "an immediate negative impression except in HR departments
staffed by former shoe salesmen."

You are not disagreeing with me ... you are disagreeing with your own
straw man. If you wish to disagree with me then at least disagree with
what I actually wrote.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

On Jul 2, 11:32 pm, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to be
> honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience,
> with the intent of helping you.

Mate, all throughout this thread I have been repeating that I at most
have intermediate skills compared to guys like Morgan. If that holds,
how could I have ever made too much of myself? I don't think you're
making sense here.

I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow
excrement
for putting those things on your resume.

> He was trying to give
> you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume.

Sure he was, but then again somebody once said, "I think the point was
that some felt that you were full of cow excrement for putting those
things on your resume".. I wonder who he was referring to.

> No one here really cares if you're proficient or not. We don't think you're
> an "upstart." You're just a guy posting in a newsgroup. No one is threatened
> by you.

You're making me laugh here. How could you even bring up the
"threatening" part? Info: one can't obviously appear aggressive or
threatening if he's humbly saying over and over again that he's at
best a mediocre in your trade.

>This whole discussion was not about you at all. It was about what is
> or isn't proficiency, in general, not about whether or not you're
> proficient. No one really cares if you're proficient. It doesn't affect us
> at all.

Alas, that is how things become. I started the thread to get some
questions answered and look at the truckpile of Shit (thanks Bob!) I
came up with. As I point out, I'm not proficient, and though whether
you guys might or might not be proficient doesn't really affect me
either I have always been respectful of your skill. On my end, I've
only wanted to find ways to increase my proficiency.

> So I think you need to take yourself a little less seriously, if you want
> some friendly advice.

Omigosh, now I'm repentant. Why didn't I brag about lecturing in
podiums and brandish challenges so that I could get away with it?
Shit, I never learn. As for friendly advice, I'm done with it. If this
is how techno-nerds are, there should be more people in the world
preaching religion or at least offer free counseling.

> I did read that. But I think you were taking the "woe is me" thing a bit too
> far by saying that "even if you had the money" you couldn't buy it because
> you "don't have a credit card."

Clarification doesn't necessarily mean "woe is me". I'm not asking for
your sympathy. As I said, I'm desperate to learn, and you have seen
how persistent I have been on that issue in my posts. In other words,
I might need your advice, but definitely not your sympathy.

>I was showing you that you can buy over the
> Internet without a credit card if and when you ever get the money. Just
> correcting your false statement that you wouldn't be able to buy it "even if
> you had the money."

Oh I'm sorry. You got me here. Ever heard of Google?

> Listen, you're not disappointing! Why would I be disappointed? Like my life
> is wrapped around whether or not you have bandwidth?? Amazing.

Thanks, you're understanding at last. Now you should realize it works
the same way with me.

> Anyway, yes, you're at a disadvantage. I realize that. But people do get by
> with disadvantages. It might take you longer to browse. Or you might have to
> download what you're going to read or wait for it to buffer. A little more
> difficult, but doable.

I'm here. I'm here reaching out to experts over a forum. Don't you
think I know what to do regarding giving effort?

> Here's my advice to you: get out there and do something. Once you start
> doing something related to programming, you'll find other stuff to do, and
> other stuff to do. And wherever you work, they'll probably have technical
> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, etc.
> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half as
> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).

This is the only part that truly addresses my condition. Thank you for
being so informative. Now I realize, instead of having come to this
forum I should have tried out Yahoo! Answers or the sorts.

> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, etc.
> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half as
> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).

You're desperately under the wrong impression that I'm begging you for
sympathy or probably even asking you to buy me bandwidth. I asked
questions because I couldn't find any answers in my context. Anyway,
not your problem and not a word more on this.

>What we did do is get out there and
> start using the technologies that we knew, and, from there, learned more
> technologies. Just get out there and start doing something. :-)

By saying that credit card facilities, lack of resources and
bandwidth, etc, etc, I was only trying to explain that technologies
aren't really that easy to learn in these parts. Again, not to be
misinterpreted as sympathy-begging.

> Well there you go. So you should be able to find a job. If you can't, then I
> don't know what to say.

My God! When did I ever say that I'm unemployed?
Similarly, when did I ever say, omigosh, I'm the best, I'm the best,
I'm the best?

No wonder the world has come to this.
Over and out.

Bob Badour wrote:

> What does your dictionary say about capitalizing Cocksucking as the 
> proper name of a skill?

If you have a psychological need to use this kind of language might I
suggest you visit a local playground. No doubt there you can find some
six to nine year olds that will be impressed.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

On Jul 3, 12:25 am, "David Cressey" <cresse...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I think his advice is dead wrong, by the way.  Most HR departments are NOT
> staffed by IT professionals.  Their evaluation of resumes is more likely to
> be driven by whether the resume meets ALL the minimum criteria established
> for the job.  If the job calls for XYZ proficiency, and the resume doesn't
> say XYZ proficiency, it gets pitched.  As to whether the candidate's
> proficiency rises to the level expected for the job,  that doesn't happen
> until later in the selection process.

Yeah, I agree. For your info, he even thinks I don't have a job or
can't get one. He's probably going to post next that I'm begging him
to buy me a house and clothes, and have asked him last Sunday to
donate his liver to me because I currently don't have one.

'69 Camaro wrote:

> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
> news:46896648$0$4321$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> 
>>What does your dictionary say about capitalizing Cocksucking as the proper 
>>name of a skill?
> 
> It says people who use this word in public are always men who wear a 
> well-padded codpiece to hide their shortcomings.

Shouldn't that be Codpiece because protective gear is a thing, and 
Codpiece is the proper name of a particular protective gear?

On Jul 2, 11:32 pm, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> >> I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow excrement
> >> for
> >> putting those things on your resume. So, the question is: at what point
> >> can
> >> one put things on one's resume? Does one have to be expert in a
> >> technology
> >> in order to put it on one's resume? Or does a proficiency in some areas
> >> of a
> >> technology warrant putting it on one's resume?
>
> > I don't care to what extent others might stoop to and it's clearly not
> > my problem. I have questions and I'll try my best to get my answers.
> > I'm not here to make friends with people so that they'll invite me
> > over for a cup of tea. Since most people around here are more bothered
> > with levels of proficiency and who the upstart I might be, here's the
> > questions again:
>
> I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to be
> honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience,
> with the intent of helping you. At the end he wrote, "Lists like this create
> an immediate negative impression except in
> HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>" He was trying to give
> you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume. The
> conversation then snowballed into an abstract discussion about what is or
> isn't proficiency.
>
> No one here really cares if you're proficient or not. We don't think you're
> an "upstart." You're just a guy posting in a newsgroup. No one is threatened
> by you. This whole discussion was not about you at all. It was about what is
> or isn't proficiency, in general, not about whether or not you're
> proficient. No one really cares if you're proficient. It doesn't affect us
> at all.
>
> So I think you need to take yourself a little less seriously, if you want
> some friendly advice.
>
> >>>(okay, I'll buy it but I don't have a credit card
> >>>so even if I had the money it would still be
> >>> unattainable)
>
> >> Open a PayPal account. Then you can obtain it.
>
> > Read: "even if I had the money". I.e., I don't. Sorry to disappoint in
> > so many areas.
>
> I did read that. But I think you were taking the "woe is me" thing a bit too
> far by saying that "even if you had the money" you couldn't buy it because
> you "don't have a credit card." I was showing you that you can buy over the
> Internet without a credit card if and when you ever get the money. Just
> correcting your false statement that you wouldn't be able to buy it "even if
> you had the money."
>
>
>
> >> So much is on the web these days. And with Google Books, it's just
> >> growing
> >> by the minute.
>
> > Sure, but you should come and checkout the bandwidth over here. Again,
> > sorry to disappoint.
>
> Listen, you're not disappointing! Why would I be disappointed? Like my life
> is wrapped around whether or not you have bandwidth?? Amazing.
>
> Anyway, yes, you're at a disadvantage. I realize that. But people do get by
> with disadvantages. It might take you longer to browse. Or you might have to
> download what you're going to read or wait for it to buffer. A little more
> difficult, but doable.
>
> > With so many drawbacks I'm mentioning, and with
> > the persistence that I am consistently asking the questions only
> > prove: I'm desperate, I really want to find my line. Might no seem a
> > complex problem to many, but for me it's an issue that might turn
> > around my life.
>
> Here's my advice to you: get out there and do something. Once you start
> doing something related to programming, you'll find other stuff to do, and
> other stuff to do. And wherever you work, they'll probably have technical
> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, etc.
> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half as
> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).
>
> None of us started out saying, "OK, I'm going to specialize in this and that
> and that. And I'm going to learned these technologies and then use them for
> the next 10 years." None of us did. What we did do is get out there and
> start using the technologies that we knew, and, from there, learned more
> technologies. Just get out there and start doing something. :-)
>
> >> A word of advice: I hope you can code more succinctly than you write!
> >> (Just
> >> kidding.....)
>
> > Nah, I don't, unfortunately. I have 3 books and over hundreds of
> > articles published.
>
> Well there you go. So you should be able to find a job. If you can't, then I
> don't know what to say.
>
> Neil

On Jul 2, 11:32 pm, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to be
> honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience,
> with the intent of helping you.

Mate, all throughout this thread I have been repeating that I at most
have intermediate skills compared to guys like Morgan. If that holds,
how could I have ever made too much of myself? I don't think you're
making sense here.

I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow
excrement
for putting those things on your resume.

> He was trying to give
> you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume.

Sure he was, but then again somebody once said, "I think the point was
that some felt that you were full of cow excrement for putting those
things on your resume".. I wonder who he was referring to.

> No one here really cares if you're proficient or not. We don't think you're
> an "upstart." You're just a guy posting in a newsgroup. No one is threatened
> by you.

You're making me laugh here. How could you even bring up the
"threatening" part? Info: one can't obviously appear aggressive or
threatening if he's humbly saying over and over again that he's at
best a mediocre in your trade.

>This whole discussion was not about you at all. It was about what is
> or isn't proficiency, in general, not about whether or not you're
> proficient. No one really cares if you're proficient. It doesn't affect us
> at all.

Alas, that is how things become. I started the thread to get some
questions answered and look at the truckpile of Shit (thanks Bob!) I
came up with. As I point out, I'm not proficient, and though whether
you guys might or might not be proficient doesn't really affect me
either I have always been respectful of your skill. On my end, I've
only wanted to find ways to increase my proficiency.

> So I think you need to take yourself a little less seriously, if you want
> some friendly advice.

Omigosh, now I'm repentant. Why didn't I brag about lecturing in
podiums and brandish challenges so that I could get away with it?
Shit, I never learn. As for friendly advice, I'm done with it. If this
is how techno-nerds are, there should be more people in the world
preaching religion or at least offer free counseling.

> I did read that. But I think you were taking the "woe is me" thing a bit too
> far by saying that "even if you had the money" you couldn't buy it because
> you "don't have a credit card."

Clarification doesn't necessarily mean "woe is me". I'm not asking for
your sympathy. As I said, I'm desperate to learn, and you have seen
how persistent I have been on that issue in my posts. In other words,
I might need your advice, but definitely not your sympathy.

>I was showing you that you can buy over the
> Internet without a credit card if and when you ever get the money. Just
> correcting your false statement that you wouldn't be able to buy it "even if
> you had the money."

Oh I'm sorry. You got me here. Ever heard of Google?

> Listen, you're not disappointing! Why would I be disappointed? Like my life
> is wrapped around whether or not you have bandwidth?? Amazing.

Thanks, you're understanding at last. Now you should realize it works
the same way with me.

> Anyway, yes, you're at a disadvantage. I realize that. But people do get by
> with disadvantages. It might take you longer to browse. Or you might have to
> download what you're going to read or wait for it to buffer. A little more
> difficult, but doable.

I'm here. I'm here reaching out to experts over a forum. Don't you
think I know what to do regarding giving effort?

> Here's my advice to you: get out there and do something. Once you start
> doing something related to programming, you'll find other stuff to do, and
> other stuff to do. And wherever you work, they'll probably have technical
> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, etc.
> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half as
> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).

This is the only part that truly addresses my condition. Thank you for
being so informative. Now I realize, instead of having come to this
forum I should have tried out Yahoo! Answers or the sorts.

> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, etc.
> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half as
> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).

You're desperately under the wrong impression that I'm begging you for
sympathy or probably even asking you to buy me bandwidth. I asked
questions because I couldn't find any answers in my context. Anyway,
not your problem and not a word more on this.

>What we did do is get out there and
> start using the technologies that we knew, and, from there, learned more
> technologies. Just get out there and start doing something. :-)

By saying that credit card facilities, lack of resources and
bandwidth, etc, etc, I was only trying to explain that technologies
aren't really that easy to learn in these parts. Again, not to be
misinterpreted as sympathy-begging.

> Well there you go. So you should be able to find a job. If you can't, then I
> don't know what to say.

My God! When did I ever say that I'm unemployed?
Similarly, when did I ever say, omigosh, I'm the best, I'm the best,
I'm the best?

No wonder the world has come to this.
Over and out.

Neil wrote:
>> "Different to" is the British usage and has been since before 
>> Shakespeare's time.  If you check _Chambers Dictionary_ (1998), you'll 
>> find the following usage for the word "different":  with _from_, also with 
>> _to_ and (_esp US_) _than_.  If you check _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate 
>> Dictionary_ (11th Edition), a common U.S. dictionary, only "different 
>> from" and "different than" are mentioned in the usage section of the entry 
>> for the word "different."
>>
> 
> Two points.
> 
> One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
> 
> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have lost 
> their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
> 
> So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway, I suggest 
> you learn proper American English, and learn how to talk good. That's what I 
> say!
> 
> Neil 
> 
> 


-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

'69 Camaro wrote:

>>>Check your standard English dictionary.
>>
>>I did, and english is not always capitalized like it is in your standard 
>>english dictionary.
> 
> Which standard English dictionary are you using, and what year was it 
> published?

I am using my standard english dictionary. Not yet published. When I 
write english, I do not refer the language of the people of England, but 
merely one of several languages commonly used by Canadians.

For example, my truck has a hood but no trunk, and one can find it in my 
driveway -- not under anything. Its drivetrain is part of the 
undercarriage. One will find my boot by the front door of my house, and 
a bonnet is something Mennonite girls wear.

I could also cite WordNet published by Princeton University in 2006, but 
I don't find their use sufficiently consistent.

Whether Morgan speaks English or english depends on whether he speaks 
the language of the people of England or some other place like America. 
Regardless, he lacks the ability to comprehend either in their written form.

I treat latin, greek, german etc. equally with respect to 
capitalization; although, I do capitalize Deutch and Schwaebisch because 
they are capitalized in their respective languages.

I think we can all agree though that nits are for gits.

One could also make the argument: why are days of the week capitalized, but 
seasons of the year are not?

"Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:46897a3e$0$4330$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> '69 Camaro wrote:
>
>>>>Check your standard English dictionary.
>>>
>>>I did, and english is not always capitalized like it is in your standard 
>>>english dictionary.
>>
>> Which standard English dictionary are you using, and what year was it 
>> published?
>
> I am using my standard english dictionary. Not yet published. When I write 
> english, I do not refer the language of the people of England, but merely 
> one of several languages commonly used by Canadians.
>
> For example, my truck has a hood but no trunk, and one can find it in my 
> driveway -- not under anything. Its drivetrain is part of the 
> undercarriage. One will find my boot by the front door of my house, and a 
> bonnet is something Mennonite girls wear.
>
> I could also cite WordNet published by Princeton University in 2006, but I 
> don't find their use sufficiently consistent.
>
> Whether Morgan speaks English or english depends on whether he speaks the 
> language of the people of England or some other place like America. 
> Regardless, he lacks the ability to comprehend either in their written 
> form.
>
> I treat latin, greek, german etc. equally with respect to capitalization; 
> although, I do capitalize Deutch and Schwaebisch because they are 
> capitalized in their respective languages.
>
> I think we can all agree though that nits are for gits. 

"dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1183413736.874400.81850@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 3, 12:25 am, "David Cressey" <cresse...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I think his advice is dead wrong, by the way.  Most HR departments are 
>> NOT
>> staffed by IT professionals.  Their evaluation of resumes is more likely 
>> to
>> be driven by whether the resume meets ALL the minimum criteria 
>> established
>> for the job.  If the job calls for XYZ proficiency, and the resume 
>> doesn't
>> say XYZ proficiency, it gets pitched.  As to whether the candidate's
>> proficiency rises to the level expected for the job,  that doesn't happen
>> until later in the selection process.
>
> Yeah, I agree. For your info, he even thinks I don't have a job or
> can't get one.

I think you're confusing DA with me. DA's the one who wrote what's being 
discussed here; I'm the one that you're referring to here.

Neil


> He's probably going to post next that I'm begging him
> to buy me a house and clothes, and have asked him last Sunday to
> donate his liver to me because I currently don't have one.
>

On Jul 2, 11:32 pm, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to be
> honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience,
> with the intent of helping you.

Mate, all throughout this thread I have been repeating that I at most
have intermediate skills compared to guys like Morgan. If that holds,
how could I have ever made too much of myself? I don't think you're
making sense here.

> He was trying to give
> you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume.

Sure he was, but then again somebody once said, "I think the point was
that some felt that you were full of cow excrement for putting those
things on your resume".. I wonder who he was referring to.

> No one here really cares if you're proficient or not. We don't think you're
> an "upstart." You're just a guy posting in a newsgroup. No one is threatened
> by you.

You're making me laugh here. How could you even bring up the
"threatening" part? (Now we're going to have a "threat" thread instead
of a "proficient" one. :D) Info: one can't obviously appear aggressive
or threatening if he's humbly saying over and over again that he's at
best a mediocre in your trade.

>This whole discussion was not about you at all. It was about what is
> or isn't proficiency, in general, not about whether or not you're
> proficient. No one really cares if you're proficient. It doesn't affect us
> at all.

Alas, that is how things become. I started the thread to get some
questions answered and look at the truckpile of Shit (thanks Bob!) I
came up with. As I point out, I'm not proficient, and though whether
you guys might or might not be proficient doesn't really affect me
either I have always been respectful of your skill. On my end, I've
only wanted to find ways to increase my proficiency.

> So I think you need to take yourself a little less seriously, if you want
> some friendly advice.

Omigosh, now I'm repentant. Why didn't I brag about lecturing in
podiums and brandish challenges so that I could get away with it?
Shit, I never learn. As for friendly advice, I'm done with it. If this
is how techno-nerds are, there should be more people in the world
preaching religion or at least offer free counseling.

> I did read that. But I think you were taking the "woe is me" thing a bit too
> far by saying that "even if you had the money" you couldn't buy it because
> you "don't have a credit card."

Clarification doesn't necessarily mean "woe is me". I'm not asking for
your sympathy. As I said, I'm desperate to learn, and you have seen
how persistent I have been on that issue in my posts. In other words,
I might need your advice, but definitely not your sympathy.

>I was showing you that you can buy over the
> Internet without a credit card if and when you ever get the money. Just
> correcting your false statement that you wouldn't be able to buy it "even if
> you had the money."

Oh I'm sorry. You got me here. Ever heard of Google?

> Listen, you're not disappointing! Why would I be disappointed? Like my life
> is wrapped around whether or not you have bandwidth?? Amazing.

Thanks, you're understanding at last. Now you should realize it works
the same way with me.

> Anyway, yes, you're at a disadvantage. I realize that. But people do get by
> with disadvantages. It might take you longer to browse. Or you might have to
> download what you're going to read or wait for it to buffer. A little more
> difficult, but doable.

I'm here. I'm here reaching out to experts over a forum. Don't you
think I know what to do regarding giving effort?

> Here's my advice to you: get out there and do something. Once you start
> doing something related to programming, you'll find other stuff to do, and
> other stuff to do. And wherever you work, they'll probably have technical
> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, etc.
> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half as
> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).

This is the only part that truly addresses my condition. Thank you for
being so informative. Now I realize, instead of having come to this
forum I should have tried out Yahoo! Answers or the sorts.

> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, etc.
> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half as
> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).

You're desperately under the wrong impression that I'm begging you for
sympathy or probably even asking you to buy me bandwidth. I asked
questions because I couldn't find any answers in my context. Anyway,
not your problem and not a word more on this.

>What we did do is get out there and
> start using the technologies that we knew, and, from there, learned more
> technologies. Just get out there and start doing something. :-)

By saying that credit card facilities, lack of resources and
bandwidth, etc, etc, I was only trying to explain that technologies
aren't really that easy to learn in these parts. Again, not to be
misinterpreted as sympathy-begging.

> Well there you go. So you should be able to find a job. If you can't, then I
> don't know what to say.

My God! When did I ever say that I'm unemployed?
Similarly, when did I ever say, omigosh, I'm the best, I'm the best,
I'm the best?

No wonder the world has come to this.
Over and out.

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
news:1183413508.966688@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
> Bob Badour wrote:
>
>> What does your dictionary say about capitalizing Cocksucking as the 
>> proper name of a skill?
>
> If you have a psychological need to use this kind of language might I
> suggest you visit a local playground. No doubt there you can find some
> six to nine year olds that will be impressed.

Please don't offer such suggestions!  Somone sick enough to *need* to use 
that kind of language may also be sick enough to *need* the attention of six 
to nine year olds.  I think it's best not to take chances with the safety of 
our children.

> -- 
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
> www.psoug.org 

dreamznatcher wrote:

> On Jul 2, 11:32 pm, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> 
>>I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to be
>>honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience,
>>with the intent of helping you.
> 
> Mate, all throughout this thread I have been repeating that I at most
> have intermediate skills compared to guys like Morgan. If that holds,
> how could I have ever made too much of myself? I don't think you're
> making sense here.
> 
> I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow
> excrement
> for putting those things on your resume.
> 
> 
>>He was trying to give
>>you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume.
> 
> Sure he was, but then again somebody once said, "I think the point was
> that some felt that you were full of cow excrement for putting those
> things on your resume".. I wonder who he was referring to.
> 
>>No one here really cares if you're proficient or not. We don't think you're
>>an "upstart." You're just a guy posting in a newsgroup. No one is threatened
>>by you.
> 
> You're making me laugh here. How could you even bring up the
> "threatening" part? Info: one can't obviously appear aggressive or
> threatening if he's humbly saying over and over again that he's at
> best a mediocre in your trade.
> 
>>This whole discussion was not about you at all. It was about what is
>>or isn't proficiency, in general, not about whether or not you're
>>proficient. No one really cares if you're proficient. It doesn't affect us
>>at all.
> 
> Alas, that is how things become. I started the thread to get some
> questions answered and look at the truckpile of Shit (thanks Bob!)

You are quite welcome. However, instead of thanking me for arousing the 
egos of charlatans, snake oil salesmen, most vociferous persons, general 
incompetents, trolls, cranks, and various and sundry other 
self-aggrandizing ignorants, I suggest you go back and read my initial 
reply.

Conceptual analysis is a communication task--not simply drawing pretty 
pictures. The idea that one can complete that task in an hour or two is 
absurd. You have deluded yourself, and delusion disqualifies one from 
any field requiring intellectual honesty.

Data management requires intellectual honesty above all else.

If you want to have a productive career in data management, go back and 
learn the fundamentals.

"dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1183413461.817086.112630@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 2, 11:32 pm, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> I think you're taking it all wrong (and making too much of yourself, to 
>> be
>> honest with you). DA Morgan gave you some advice based on his experience,
>> with the intent of helping you.
>
> Mate, all throughout this thread I have been repeating that I at most
> have intermediate skills compared to guys like Morgan. If that holds,
> how could I have ever made too much of myself? I don't think you're
> making sense here.

OK, then I'll repeat myself. You wrote:

"Since most people around here are more bothered with levels of proficiency 
and who the upstart I might be"

People areound here are not bothered by the upstart you might be, nor with 
whether or not you are an upstart. That's what I was referring to by making 
too much of yourself.


>
> I think the point was that some felt that you were full of cow
> excrement
> for putting those things on your resume.
>
>> He was trying to give
>> you some friendly advice to help you be successful with your resume.
>
> Sure he was, but then again somebody once said, "I think the point was
> that some felt that you were full of cow excrement for putting those
> things on your resume".. I wonder who he was referring to.

Yes, that's correct. But, again, the point is that he was giving you advice 
on how to help you to have what would be in his opinion a more effective 
resume. He wasn't bothered by the fact that you might be an "upstart" or any 
such thing.

>
>> No one here really cares if you're proficient or not. We don't think 
>> you're
>> an "upstart." You're just a guy posting in a newsgroup. No one is 
>> threatened
>> by you.
>
> You're making me laugh here. How could you even bring up the
> "threatening" part? Info: one can't obviously appear aggressive or
> threatening if he's humbly saying over and over again that he's at
> best a mediocre in your trade.

Again, based on your statement, "Most people around here are more bothered 
with ... who the upstart I might be."


>
>>This whole discussion was not about you at all. It was about what is
>> or isn't proficiency, in general, not about whether or not you're
>> proficient. No one really cares if you're proficient. It doesn't affect 
>> us
>> at all.
>
> Alas, that is how things become. I started the thread to get some
> questions answered and look at the truckpile of Shit (thanks Bob!) I
> came up with. As I point out, I'm not proficient, and though whether
> you guys might or might not be proficient doesn't really affect me
> either I have always been respectful of your skill. On my end, I've
> only wanted to find ways to increase my proficiency.
>
>> So I think you need to take yourself a little less seriously, if you want
>> some friendly advice.

Again, just going by your words.


>
> Omigosh, now I'm repentant. Why didn't I brag about lecturing in
> podiums and brandish challenges so that I could get away with it?
> Shit, I never learn. As for friendly advice, I'm done with it. If this
> is how techno-nerds are, there should be more people in the world
> preaching religion or at least offer free counseling.
>
>> I did read that. But I think you were taking the "woe is me" thing a bit 
>> too
>> far by saying that "even if you had the money" you couldn't buy it 
>> because
>> you "don't have a credit card."
>
> Clarification doesn't necessarily mean "woe is me". I'm not asking for
> your sympathy. As I said, I'm desperate to learn, and you have seen
> how persistent I have been on that issue in my posts. In other words,
> I might need your advice, but definitely not your sympathy.
>
>>I was showing you that you can buy over the
>> Internet without a credit card if and when you ever get the money. Just
>> correcting your false statement that you wouldn't be able to buy it "even 
>> if
>> you had the money."
>
> Oh I'm sorry. You got me here. Ever heard of Google?

Yes, I have.


>
>> Listen, you're not disappointing! Why would I be disappointed? Like my 
>> life
>> is wrapped around whether or not you have bandwidth?? Amazing.
>
> Thanks, you're understanding at last. Now you should realize it works
> the same way with me.
>
>> Anyway, yes, you're at a disadvantage. I realize that. But people do get 
>> by
>> with disadvantages. It might take you longer to browse. Or you might have 
>> to
>> download what you're going to read or wait for it to buffer. A little 
>> more
>> difficult, but doable.
>
> I'm here. I'm here reaching out to experts over a forum. Don't you
> think I know what to do regarding giving effort?

You're saying you don't have books, and you don't have enough bandwidth to 
get materials online, and -- oh yeah -- even if you had the money you 
couldn't buy anything over the Internet because you don't have a credit 
card. I was addressing your statements.


>
>> Here's my advice to you: get out there and do something. Once you start
>> doing something related to programming, you'll find other stuff to do, 
>> and
>> other stuff to do. And wherever you work, they'll probably have technical
>> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, 
>> etc.
>> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half 
>> as
>> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).
>
> This is the only part that truly addresses my condition. Thank you for
> being so informative. Now I realize, instead of having come to this
> forum I should have tried out Yahoo! Answers or the sorts.

Yes, Yahoo! Answers is a great place to go. I think you'll like it there.

>
>> resources available for you to use and (gasp!) maybe higher bandwidth, 
>> etc.
>> Just get out there and do something, and doors will open (if you're half 
>> as
>> good as you say you are, that is... ;-) ).
>
> You're desperately under the wrong impression that I'm begging you for
> sympathy or probably even asking you to buy me bandwidth.

I never had the impression that you were asking me to buy you bandwidth or 
anything else. So you can put your mind at ease on that one. But I do think 
you were looking for sympathy.


> I asked
> questions because I couldn't find any answers in my context. Anyway,
> not your problem and not a word more on this.
>
>>What we did do is get out there and
>> start using the technologies that we knew, and, from there, learned more
>> technologies. Just get out there and start doing something. :-)
>
> By saying that credit card facilities, lack of resources and
> bandwidth, etc, etc, I was only trying to explain that technologies
> aren't really that easy to learn in these parts. Again, not to be
> misinterpreted as sympathy-begging.

OK, understood.

>
>> Well there you go. So you should be able to find a job. If you can't, 
>> then I
>> don't know what to say.
>
> My God! When did I ever say that I'm unemployed?

Your original post said:

"I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
driven applications, preferably for web portals."

That gave the impression that you were: a) not yet employed in a 
database-related job ("considering" a career switch) and b) possibly just 
out of school (Computer Engineering graduate).

I didn't mean that you were unemployed, only that you were not yet employed 
in a database-related job, and that you should just get out there and start 
doing it.

I also didn't mean to imply that you couldn't find a job, only that, if you 
didn't find a job, I don't know what to say.


> Similarly, when did I ever say, omigosh, I'm the best, I'm the best,
> I'm the best?

I never said that you said you were the best. I was saying that if you have 
three books and hundreds of articles published, then you're an intelligent 
person and you should be able to find a job. That's all.

Neil


>
> No wonder the world has come to this.
> Over and out.
> 

Your message was blank. Were you going to say something?

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
news:1183414681.949619@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
> Neil wrote:
>>> "Different to" is the British usage and has been since before 
>>> Shakespeare's time.  If you check _Chambers Dictionary_ (1998), you'll 
>>> find the following usage for the word "different":  with _from_, also 
>>> with _to_ and (_esp US_) _than_.  If you check _Merriam-Webster's 
>>> Collegiate Dictionary_ (11th Edition), a common U.S. dictionary, only 
>>> "different from" and "different than" are mentioned in the usage section 
>>> of the entry for the word "different."
>>>
>>
>> Two points.
>>
>> One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
>>
>> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have 
>> lost their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in 
>> WWII.
>>
>> So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway, I 
>> suggest you learn proper American English, and learn how to talk good. 
>> That's what I say!
>>
>> Neil
>
>
> -- 
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
> www.psoug.org 

On Jul 3, 3:44 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> Two points.
>
> One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.

You obviously have no idea of the impact Shakespeare has had on the
English language, and the many idioms and phrases and metaphors which
he created that are still commonly being used today, by American
English speakers and British English speakers alike, and just about by
any anyone on any part of the globe speaking English.

> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have lost
> their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.

Let's take that discussion further.
Wherever the white man goes, everything is left is ruins. Starting
from the colonial times and following to the present day, consider
reading the histories of the Indian subcontinent, South America,
Africa, the Middle East, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, with perhaps Iran
and Venezuela to follow. And let's not even talk about the Red
Indians.

But does all that even make any sense now? History has had its course.
I wasn't born in times when my country was under colonial rule. The
effects are still there, but since it doesn't belong to my lifespan-
radius, I can't really complain, and neither can you brag or bark. Get
frank. Not nice to be rude to people in that fashion.

> So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway, I suggest
> you learn proper American English, and learn how to talk good. That's what I
> say!

Okay Neil, let's play your game!
Okay, this is American English going, one-two-three! Here we are at
Madison Square Garden waiting anxiously to see who wins in the fight
against Iraq. The nasty Iraqis are extremely sleek, though they may be
poor and underequipped. They're so ugly, we bombed their children and
splattered cluster bombs all over the place but they still survive.
Hang on, the ugly Philistines are there at the corner, they're trying
to get at Uncle Bob but Uncle Bob now has a steel chair and wham! A
shot to the back of the head. One more Iraqi terrorist down who just
shot down a chopper with a shotgun. Hang on... hang on right there....
now there's Fidel Castro in the corner! That slimy bastard! Why can't
you just die you bastard, die, die, die?... Wait! Tony Blair! Tony
Blair emerges from the audience! Blair has a chair! Blair has a chair!

Didn't sound pretty, did it?
Now let's be more sensible. I'm not trying to imply that what's going
on around the world is right or justified. Nor am I saying the war in
Iraq or the crisis in the Middle East or the tension between the US
and Cuba are things I support or advertise. Yours is a great nation
but it's not without its history of errors and plights. It's the same
with every nation. But you belong to your nation, and I belong to
mine, and all I'm saying is, therefore it's not nice to say stuff in
that manner.

dreamznatcher wrote:
> On Jul 3, 3:44 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> 
>>Two points.
>>
>>One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
> 
> 
> You obviously have no idea of the impact Shakespeare has had on the
> English language, and the many idioms and phrases and metaphors which
> he created that are still commonly being used today, by American
> English speakers and British English speakers alike, and just about by
> any anyone on any part of the globe speaking English.
> 
> 
>>And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have lost
>>their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
> 
> 
> Let's take that discussion further.
> Wherever the white man goes, everything is left is ruins. Starting
> from the colonial times and following to the present day, consider
> reading the histories of the Indian subcontinent, South America,
> Africa, the Middle East, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, with perhaps Iran
> and Venezuela to follow. And let's not even talk about the Red
> Indians.

Are you suggesting that none of these places were ruins by modern 
standards before Europeans arrived? Are you suggesting that Canada, the 
USA, Australia, New Zealand and Japan are ruins?

On Jul 1, 2:53 pm, dreamznatcher <tashfeenmah...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I'm really perplexed here. I never on heaven or earth could have ever
> imagined a single word I used could have spawned all this...
> "proficient". Who really cares, anyway, as long as (as Neil points
> out) I (or anyone claiming to be proficient in any particular area)
> manages to get a job done? We're all developers here, some good, some
> bad; but in the end all that matters if we can deliver or not.. and
> how (i.e. timeliness, accuracy, quality, interface, stability..). I
> guess it's the "how" part here in the argument that's raising all the
> hullabaloo.

Actually, we're not all developers here.  In cdos (where I'm reading
this), the emphasis is on Oracle server technologies, so there are
many DBA (database administrator) types.  The definition of DBA varies
by site, but it is quite often more comprehensive or even exclusive to
"super-duper-developer."  I won't comment on cdt except to say they
are more theory oriented.  I'll try not to say bad things about
access, though I'm biased against it, the bias mostly consisting of
scalability limitations.

In many places there is conflict between developers and DBA's.  This
often arises because they have different priorities:  the DBA is
concerned with the integrity of production data, while the developer
is concerned with productively creating new applications.  There may
be separate analysts involved in the process too, depending on the
work involved.

So to many DBA's, the concept of rapidly delivering applications in a
matter of days is a red flag - it immediately brings up issues of
integration.  Many of us have had to deal with the effects of
uncontrolled developer access to databases, and even messes from
giving ODBC access to users.  In some places, there have been real
messes created by cowboy developers coming up with some completely
different interface than everything else, mightily confusing users.
There are even times when the new way is award-winning, recognized as
excellent by management - and still screwing everybody up, because
management isn't really properly evaluating the effect on the
organization and it's data, they're just dazzled by widgets.

>
> Let's be frank and admit that avid developers are more often
> perfectionists than not. We have to be on the top of the game, we have
> to be top-notch; we're constantly striving to the extent of reducing
> or adding a single statement among millions of lines of code for the
> sake of improving the performance, quality and inner beauty (that's a
> vague term to use here, isn't it? But if you would agree the equation
> E = mc^2 is beautiful, you'll probably understand) even by a minute
> bit. Why do we do all this? Why do we eat, sleep, drink and dream
> code? For the last few nights, why am I always dreaming of coding the
> exact block I couldn't because my body refused to remain awake
> anymore? Ever since I've been working on this application, and
> whenever I am ever working on anything, how does my mind always manage
> to slip away from restaurants and people and traffic and fried chicken
> and everything around me, to pure, hard code?

Hopefully, you'll get over it.  Most project managers realize they get
better work out of people with balanced lives.

>
> I'm sure all of you have consistently or at least at times experienced
> feelings like these. I don't think it's totally because of the
> constant pressure of clients, or because of the sort of crazed zeal
> some folks in college exhibit in fishing for A's despite their evident
> disregard for practicality and disrespect for proper understanding
> (how on God's earth do some of this bunch end up with great jobs,
> anyway?). To cut a long and tall story short, we're like this because
> we chose to be.
>
> So adhering to that philosophy, how do you classify proficiency or
> expertise? I can't.There are thousands who fit that bill. By the
> standards many of you have set out, I'm probably not even
> intermediate. But then again I know what I can do and I have the
> confidence that there are areas in which I could beat each and
> everyone of you at your own game.. and that holds true for the
> potential of each and every individual. What really drives the world?
> Being great at syntax in any area -- being the perfect lawyer, the
> meticulous banker, the ambitious actor, the coder who knows every nook
> and cranny of the application -- are great and are greatly appreciated
> in society because such proficiency offers a FORMAT that society can
> read.. predict.. and regulate if necessary.

Being honest about your own limitations is vital for self-
improvement.  Resumes, on the other hand, are marketing tools.
Fitting workers to jobs is another whole area of expertise, one that
is sadly lacking in the contract arena.  I used to think that having
expertise in 4 generations of languages plus lots of both formal and
rapid design experience would let me get proficient reasonably fast in
any new language.  I don't think that any more.  For an organization
to really get a lot out of their employees, they must recognize
everything requires training, thought and work.  Contracting
situations require existing expertise in specific toolsets.  So one
method for success is to find situations that need a scarce ability,
that will subsequently allow expansion and learning.  Being able to
reduce problems to entities and attributes is a good skill, but needs
to be enhanced by being able to communicate both ways.

>
> There are zillions of people alive and kicking who can know everything
> by the book and deliver flawless code if given the chance... think
> ahead 50 years. Won't artificial intelligence be capable of doing
> that? What good are such "experts" then? If we can and believe to be
> led by the idea that simply delievering according to a set of
> regulations (however big that set might be) proves us "proficient",
> where does the value of knowledge stand? And whatever on earth happens
> to creativity?

When I was a DBA, my general feeling was to give developers plenty of
latitude to be creative, and have a series of levels to bring anything
written to production quality.  Sometimes it worked, other times they
didn't get that at all and wanted to do, well, stupid things to the
database (if you peruse cdos, you can find many examples of people
needing to unlearn non-Oracle ways of doing things).  As in so many
other things, a couple of years of experience creates "sophisticated
morons."   There is no such thing as flawless code, and the key to
artificial intelligence is the ability to get away from fixed two-mode
logic.  Whether artificial intelligence will ever get the capability
to deliver flawless code is debatable, as is the concept of flawless
code, since fuzzy requirements usually have to be involved somewhere.

>
> I remember a faculty member in our university never allowed closed
> book exams; he argued that if someone can solve a problem in 20 mins
> while it takes someone else 200, it doesn't mean either of the two are
> better. I dare say (and thank God I've admitted my limitations) I know
> far less than most of you about Oracle or just about any language or
> rdbms I mentioned. Fair enough. Now give me a chance: let me learn.

For cdos, anyways, see http://www.dbaoracle.net/readme-cdos.htm

>
> Give me the kind of schooling you get at Stanford (someone mentioned
> Stanford for databases), buy me the software (okay, I'll buy it but I
> don't have a credit card so even if I had the money it would still be
> unattainable) and let me enter a good library (you won't believe this:
> there are hardly 3-4 titles on databases available in this country).
> Then, give me some time (a few months to a few years) and come back.
> I'm sure I won't be a poor challenger. Once again, I'm not bragging
> here. I'm talking about any average Joe here. Just about any guy who
> wants to learn and is willing to work hard. And mind you there are
> millions of such people out there.

Downloads of Oracle Enterprise Edition are free for learning, besides
connectivity costs, except in certain parts of the world.

>
> But what good would I be among such a huge pool of "experts"? True,
> there's plenty of fodder for everyone. And of course I don't intend to
> say experts are useless or unimportant. I started this post, and
> wanted to make a point (which applies to myself and I'm sure it does
> for many others as well): I might not be able to code as well as most
> of you, but I feel I can IMAGINE database-driven applications; I have
> the faith that in a world already crammed with godzillion bytes of
> code I still might be able to tell you of software and programs that
> are yet to be built. Just because I don't have the language to express
> my idea doesn't mean I'm blind or that I immediately fall into a sub-
> standard category. If I can tell what the thing will be like, there
> will be always people capable of building it.
>
> What I was looking for here was assistance -- making me find my voice
> so that I can transform the vague ideas I have into reality. That
> intention has been partially satisfied with some really informative
> and enlightening posts. I'll repeat my primary message here, as
> trimmed down as possible: I can draw any ERD you'll ask me to,
> probably fast enough to get a few people impressed. What should I do
> with this ability? What should I specifically learn? What job might
> this proficiency... just kidding, ability... get me?

As others may have said, it depends where you are.  To focus on
design, you need to be at a site big enough to have designers, DBA's,
developers, analysts, and so on.  There are more sites where one or
two guys do it all.  The former tend to pay more.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/32716/113/

Neil wrote:

> One could also make the argument: why are days of the week capitalized, but 
> seasons of the year are not?

I don't bother making the argument. Neither do I bother to capitalize 
the days of the week.

I have a friend whose dictionary uniformly replaces the -ible suffix 
with -able whenever the suffix implies capability.

"dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1183416684.619916.14810@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 3, 3:44 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> Two points.
>>
>> One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
>
> You obviously have no idea of the impact Shakespeare has had on the
> English language, and the many idioms and phrases and metaphors which
> he created that are still commonly being used today, by American
> English speakers and British English speakers alike, and just about by
> any anyone on any part of the globe speaking English.

Believe it or not, I do. What you don't seem to realize is that my comment 
was a joke. Did you notice the poor grammar in my note? It was intended to 
be tongue-in-cheek.

>
>> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have 
>> lost
>> their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
>
> Let's take that discussion further.
> Wherever the white man goes, everything is left is ruins. Starting
> from the colonial times and following to the present day, consider
> reading the histories of the Indian subcontinent, South America,
> Africa, the Middle East, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, with perhaps Iran
> and Venezuela to follow. And let's not even talk about the Red
> Indians.

Wherever *man* goes everything is left in ruins. Consider the corruption and 
genocide occuring on the African continent. No white man to blame there. 
White people have just been in the forefront, they've been the ones with the 
power, so history shows their destructive trail. Had black people or yellow 
people or red people or (gasp) Bangladeshian people been the ones with the 
most power over the past few hundred years, history would have been more or 
less the same. Mankind is corrupt, and those in power are the most corrupt.

>
> But does all that even make any sense now? History has had its course.
> I wasn't born in times when my country was under colonial rule. The
> effects are still there, but since it doesn't belong to my lifespan-
> radius, I can't really complain, and neither can you brag or bark. Get
> frank. Not nice to be rude to people in that fashion.

Well, I think Gunny got my humor. If he's a Brit, then they're known for 
their dry humor.

>
>> So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway, I 
>> suggest
>> you learn proper American English, and learn how to talk good. That's 
>> what I
>> say!
>
> Okay Neil, let's play your game!
> Okay, this is American English going, one-two-three! Here we are at
> Madison Square Garden waiting anxiously to see who wins in the fight
> against Iraq. The nasty Iraqis are extremely sleek, though they may be
> poor and underequipped. They're so ugly, we bombed their children and
> splattered cluster bombs all over the place but they still survive.
> Hang on, the ugly Philistines are there at the corner, they're trying
> to get at Uncle Bob but Uncle Bob now has a steel chair and wham! A
> shot to the back of the head. One more Iraqi terrorist down who just
> shot down a chopper with a shotgun. Hang on... hang on right there....
> now there's Fidel Castro in the corner! That slimy bastard! Why can't
> you just die you bastard, die, die, die?... Wait! Tony Blair! Tony
> Blair emerges from the audience! Blair has a chair! Blair has a chair!

Wow, you sound like you need to take your medication or something.........

>
> Didn't sound pretty, did it?
> Now let's be more sensible. I'm not trying to imply that what's going
> on around the world is right or justified. Nor am I saying the war in
> Iraq or the crisis in the Middle East or the tension between the US
> and Cuba are things I support or advertise. Yours is a great nation
> but it's not without its history of errors and plights. It's the same
> with every nation. But you belong to your nation, and I belong to
> mine, and all I'm saying is, therefore it's not nice to say stuff in
> that manner.

All I said was that we saved their asses in World War II, so they owe it to 
us to speak English the proper way -- the American way! -- and not in some 
outdated British way. Who said anything about Iraq and whatnot??......

Get over yourself, man!

Neil


>
> 

> I have a friend whose dictionary uniformly replaces the -ible suffix
> with -able whenever the suffix implies capability.

Well, I'm not one to quibble over "ible." 

Neil wrote:
>> "Different to" is the British usage and has been since before 
>> Shakespeare's time.  If you check _Chambers Dictionary_ (1998), you'll 
>> find the following usage for the word "different":  with _from_, also with 
>> _to_ and (_esp US_) _than_.  If you check _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate 
>> Dictionary_ (11th Edition), a common U.S. dictionary, only "different 
>> from" and "different than" are mentioned in the usage section of the entry 
>> for the word "different."
>>
> 
> Two points.
> 
> One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
> 
> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have lost 
> their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
> 
> So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway, I suggest 
> you learn proper American English, and learn how to talk good. That's what I 
> say!
> 
> Neil 

Enough of this nonsense. It has no place in c.d.o.s and unless you
haven't checked recently it is those very same Brits bailing your
country's sorry behind out in Iraq right this second. You owe a
number of people an apology. Not least of which is the rest of us
in the US tarred by association by such John Wayne jingoism.

So knock it off or take it off-line and go eat your freedom fries
somewhere else.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

On Jul 3, 5:04 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> dreamznatcher wrote:
> > On Jul 3, 3:44 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> >>Two points.
>
> >>One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
>
> > You obviously have no idea of the impact Shakespeare has had on the
> > English language, and the many idioms and phrases and metaphors which
> > he created that are still commonly being used today, by American
> > English speakers and British English speakers alike, and just about by
> > any anyone on any part of the globe speaking English.
>
> >>And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have lost
> >>their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
>
> > Let's take that discussion further.
> > Wherever the white man goes, everything is left is ruins. Starting
> > from the colonial times and following to the present day, consider
> > reading the histories of the Indian subcontinent, South America,
> > Africa, the Middle East, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, with perhaps Iran
> > and Venezuela to follow. And let's not even talk about the Red
> > Indians.
>
> Are you suggesting that none of these places were ruins by modern
> standards before Europeans arrived? Are you suggesting that Canada, the
> USA, Australia, New Zealand and Japan are ruins?

Please read the para I wrote after that. And if you've read my whole
post you'll realize I'm not the one who's racist or something.

As for your question, well, as for the places I mentioned, according
to recorded history (visit a library or something) yeah, they were not
in ruins. Up to you to find out.

No, Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand and Japan are not in
ruins. But of the places I mentioned and the fates they have faced,
once again, please consult a decent library.

Neil wrote:

>>I have a friend whose dictionary uniformly replaces the -ible suffix
>>with -able whenever the suffix implies capability.
> 
> Well, I'm not one to quibble over "ible." 

ROFLMAO!

Well, that makes two people who didn't get my humor. Guess I'll have to work 
on taking my tongue out of my cheek a little......

I'll take my freedom fries with ketchup, thank you!

>
> Enough of this nonsense. It has no place in c.d.o.s and unless you
> haven't checked recently it is those very same Brits bailing your
> country's sorry behind out in Iraq right this second. You owe a
> number of people an apology. Not least of which is the rest of us
> in the US tarred by association by such John Wayne jingoism.
>
> So knock it off or take it off-line and go eat your freedom fries
> somewhere else.
> -- 
> Daniel A. Morgan
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
> www.psoug.org 

Aw, it wasn't that funny. A simple ROFL would have sufficed. :-) But thanks.


"Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:46898b88$0$4308$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> Neil wrote:
>
>>>I have a friend whose dictionary uniformly replaces the -ible suffix
>>>with -able whenever the suffix implies capability.
>>
>> Well, I'm not one to quibble over "ible."
>
> ROFLMAO! 

dreamznatcher wrote:

> On Jul 3, 5:04 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 
>>dreamznatcher wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 3, 3:44 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>Two points.
>>
>>>>One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
>>
>>>You obviously have no idea of the impact Shakespeare has had on the
>>>English language, and the many idioms and phrases and metaphors which
>>>he created that are still commonly being used today, by American
>>>English speakers and British English speakers alike, and just about by
>>>any anyone on any part of the globe speaking English.
>>
>>>>And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have lost
>>>>their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
>>
>>>Let's take that discussion further.
>>>Wherever the white man goes, everything is left is ruins. Starting
>>>from the colonial times and following to the present day, consider
>>>reading the histories of the Indian subcontinent, South America,
>>>Africa, the Middle East, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, with perhaps Iran
>>>and Venezuela to follow. And let's not even talk about the Red
>>>Indians.
>>
>>Are you suggesting that none of these places were ruins by modern
>>standards before Europeans arrived? Are you suggesting that Canada, the
>>USA, Australia, New Zealand and Japan are ruins?
> 
> Please read the para I wrote after that. And if you've read my whole
> post you'll realize I'm not the one who's racist or something.

I don't recall calling you racist. I asked whether you were suggesting 
the above. Since you have already exhibited self-delusion, I stop 
reading at the first sign of it.

I don't have time to read delusional rants.

On Jul 3, 5:17 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> Believe it or not, I do. What you don't seem to realize is that my comment
> was a joke. Did you notice the poor grammar in my note? It was intended to
> be tongue-in-cheek.

Okay Neil, I'm sorry, maybe this thread has got my sense of humor
screwed.

Note:
>>> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have
>>> lost
>>> their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.

Which has been followed by:
>> Let's take that discussion further.

which implies I was merely talking in the same vein as you were.

> Wherever *man* goes everything is left in ruins.

I have to agree, Neil.

>Consider the corruption and
> genocide occuring on the African continent. No white man to blame there.

Really? Do you know anybody working somewhere like Shell? Well I do,
and they've got a very different story to tell. And they have a very
different view of the CIA, too.

>Had black people or yellow
>people or red people or (gasp) Bangladeshian people been the ones with the
> most power over the past few hundred years, history would have been more or
> less the same.

Maybe, maybe not. You should read our history too, but perhaps
(judging from your timely gasps) you think that a third-world country
with a 3000-year old history of civilization is still only a third-
world country. Note: Bangladeshis discovered China a long time before
the Europeans. We gave the world the Buddha, who was a citizen of what
was ancient Bengal (Pancha Gouda), supplied the West with spices and
jewels and jute for centuries, and our current most famous export
today would be micro-credit. Never mind.

> Wow, you sound like you need to take your medication or something.........
I'm sure many would agree that I'm not the only one.

> All I said was that we saved their asses in World War II, so they owe it to
> us to speak English the proper way -- the American way! -- and not in some
> outdated British way. Who said anything about Iraq and whatnot??......

All I'm saying is you have a right to speak English in the American
way or in any way you might consider proper! Not because you saved
their or anyone's asses in some-yesteryear, dammit!

> Get over yourself, man!
Mirror, mirror on the wall... Lol

"dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1183420358.658559.188790@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 3, 5:17 am, "Neil" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Believe it or not, I do. What you don't seem to realize is that my 
>> comment
>> was a joke. Did you notice the poor grammar in my note? It was intended 
>> to
>> be tongue-in-cheek.
>
> Okay Neil, I'm sorry, maybe this thread has got my sense of humor
> screwed.

No problem. DAM didn't get my humor either. Maybe I need to work on my 
delivery. Programmers are a tough audience!

"So these two atoms are walking down the street, and one of them says, 'Hey, 
I lost an electron!' The other one says, 'Are you sure??' and the first one 
says, 'Yeah, I'm positive!'"


> Maybe, maybe not. You should read our history too, but perhaps
> (judging from your timely gasps) you think that a third-world country
> with a 3000-year old history of civilization is still only a third-
> world country. Note: Bangladeshis discovered China a long time before
> the Europeans. We gave the world the Buddha, who was a citizen of what
> was ancient Bengal (Pancha Gouda), supplied the West with spices and
> jewels and jute for centuries, and our current most famous export
> today would be micro-credit. Never mind.

OK.

>
>> Wow, you sound like you need to take your medication or 
>> something.........
> I'm sure many would agree that I'm not the only one.

Ouch!

>
>> All I said was that we saved their asses in World War II, so they owe it 
>> to
>> us to speak English the proper way -- the American way! -- and not in 
>> some
>> outdated British way. Who said anything about Iraq and whatnot??......
>
> All I'm saying is you have a right to speak English in the American
> way or in any way you might consider proper! Not because you saved
> their or anyone's asses in some-yesteryear, dammit!

No, we saved their asses, and so they OWE it to us to speak English our way, 
not in some outdated way!

(See, there's that tongue in the cheek again. You gotta look for it.)

Neil


>
>> Get over yourself, man!
> Mirror, mirror on the wall... Lol
> 

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote

> Enough of this nonsense. It has no place in c.d.o.s and unless you
> haven't checked recently it is those very same Brits bailing your
> country's sorry behind out in Iraq right this second. You owe a
> number of people an apology. Not least of which is the rest of us
> in the US tarred by association by such John Wayne jingoism.
>
> So knock it off or take it off-line and go eat your freedom fries
> somewhere else.
> -- 
> Daniel A. Morgan
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
> www.psoug.org

I agree, it has no place in comp.databases.ms-access, either. And, neither 
do his nor your political views belong in comp.databases.ms-access. Please 
do us the favor of removing comp.databases.ms-access from your cross-post 
list on future replies, both you and Neil. Thanks. 

Larry Linson wrote:

> "DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote
> 
> 
>>Enough of this nonsense. It has no place in c.d.o.s and unless you
>>haven't checked recently it is those very same Brits bailing your
>>country's sorry behind out in Iraq right this second. You owe a
>>number of people an apology. Not least of which is the rest of us
>>in the US tarred by association by such John Wayne jingoism.
>>
>>So knock it off or take it off-line and go eat your freedom fries
>>somewhere else.
>>-- 
>>Daniel A. Morgan
>>Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
>>www.psoug.org
> 
> I agree, it has no place in comp.databases.ms-access, either. And, neither 
> do his nor your political views belong in comp.databases.ms-access. Please 
> do us the favor of removing comp.databases.ms-access from your cross-post 
> list on future replies, both you and Neil. Thanks. 

I suggest leading by example and setting the 'Followup-To' attribute on 
your next cross-post.

<snip>

>> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have 
>> lost
>> their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
>
> Let's take that discussion further.
> Wherever the white man goes, everything is left is ruins. Starting
> from the colonial times and following to the present day, consider
> reading the histories of the Indian subcontinent, South America,
> Africa, the Middle East, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, with perhaps Iran
> and Venezuela to follow. And let's not even talk about the Red
> Indians.

Sorry, old boy, but actually it's "Wherever the white man has /departed/, 
everything is in ruins." Seems that while the natives are capable of 
enjoying the fruits of civilization, they aren't quite capable of 
maintaining it. Pity, really.

<snip>

Bruce C. Baker wrote:

> <snip>
> 
>>>And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have 
>>>lost
>>>their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
>>
>>Let's take that discussion further.
>>Wherever the white man goes, everything is left is ruins. Starting
>>from the colonial times and following to the present day, consider
>>reading the histories of the Indian subcontinent, South America,
>>Africa, the Middle East, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, with perhaps Iran
>>and Venezuela to follow. And let's not even talk about the Red
>>Indians.
> 
> Sorry, old boy, but actually it's "Wherever the white man has /departed/, 
> everything is in ruins." Seems that while the natives are capable of 
> enjoying the fruits of civilization, they aren't quite capable of 
> maintaining it. Pity, really.
> 
> <snip>

Even that isn't necessarily true: see Japan.

"> One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.

I never wrote any such thing.  I mentioned it to point out that it's not a 
new development in the usage of the word, so it shouldn't surprise you that 
someone is using it.

> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have 
> lost their world empire,

Empires don't last forever.  Just ask the Romans.  And how many empires, 
pray tell, have you built, compared to the British, and how many continents 
did they span, and for how many hundreds of years?

> and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.

Who's "us"?  You carried an M-1 Garand in World War II, right beside my Dad, 
huh?  And by the way, Gunny is short for Gunnery Sergeant, United States 
Marine Corps, so I'll let you guess my citizenship.

> So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway,

There you go with that "us" again.  I _do_ speak German, and I doubt you 
ever lifted a finger to keep anyone from teaching me or anyone else, for 
that matter.  And when our founding fathers were deciding the official 
language of the new United States of America, German lost by only one vote, 
so it's not the big deal you may think it is.

> I suggest you learn proper American English,

I have a better command of American English than most people do because I 
went to school to get an education and the diplomas, instead of just the 
diplomas.  That may also be because I was lucky enough to be born a stone's 
throw from San Francisco, where everyone spoke American English, and the 
majority of them had a college education.  I had plenty of good examples to 
learn from.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
Blogs: www.DataDevilDog.BlogSpot.com, www.DatabaseTips.BlogSpot.com
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact 
info.

"Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:46897a3e$0$4330$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> '69 Camaro wrote:
>
>>>>Check your standard English dictionary.
>>>
>>>I did, and english is not always capitalized like it is in your standard 
>>>english dictionary.
>>
>> Which standard English dictionary are you using, and what year was it 
>> published?
>
> I am using my standard english dictionary. Not yet published.

That explains a lot.  Please let us know when a major publishing house 
publishes it.  Your dictionary will prevent a lot of squabbles between 
Scrabble players.  "See?  I _told_ you it was in the dictionary!"

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
Blogs: www.DataDevilDog.BlogSpot.com, www.DatabaseTips.BlogSpot.com
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact 
info.

"Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:4689761a$0$4300$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> '69 Camaro wrote:
>
>> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
>> news:46896648$0$4321$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
>>
>>>What does your dictionary say about capitalizing Cocksucking as the 
>>>proper name of a skill?
>>
>> It says people who use this word in public are always men who wear a 
>> well-padded codpiece to hide their shortcomings.
>
> Shouldn't that be Codpiece because protective gear is a thing, and 
> Codpiece is the proper name of a particular protective gear?

No.  Codpiece is a common noun, and it's being used as one in this context. 
You can change that, however.  Create a company named Codpiece that 
manufactures protective gear.  Everyone will have to capitalize your 
company's protective gear in a sentence as "Codpiece armor."

Gunny 

Well, that makes three people, at least, who didn't get my humor. Oh well. 
One thing I'll say: you're right that I thought you were British. But the 
fact that you're not explains a lot. They understand dry humor.

I thought for sure my statement, "I suggest you learn proper American 
English, and learn how to talk good" was a dead giveaway. Oh well.

Neil


"'69 Camaro" <ForwardZERO_SPAM.To.69Camaro@Spameater.orgZERO_SPAM> wrote in 
message news:4Diii.1411$Np2.1373@trnddc07...
>"> One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
>
> I never wrote any such thing.  I mentioned it to point out that it's not a 
> new development in the usage of the word, so it shouldn't surprise you 
> that someone is using it.
>
>> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have 
>> lost their world empire,
>
> Empires don't last forever.  Just ask the Romans.  And how many empires, 
> pray tell, have you built, compared to the British, and how many 
> continents did they span, and for how many hundreds of years?
>
>> and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
>
> Who's "us"?  You carried an M-1 Garand in World War II, right beside my 
> Dad, huh?  And by the way, Gunny is short for Gunnery Sergeant, United 
> States Marine Corps, so I'll let you guess my citizenship.
>
>> So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway,
>
> There you go with that "us" again.  I _do_ speak German, and I doubt you 
> ever lifted a finger to keep anyone from teaching me or anyone else, for 
> that matter.  And when our founding fathers were deciding the official 
> language of the new United States of America, German lost by only one 
> vote, so it's not the big deal you may think it is.
>
>> I suggest you learn proper American English,
>
> I have a better command of American English than most people do because I 
> went to school to get an education and the diplomas, instead of just the 
> diplomas.  That may also be because I was lucky enough to be born a 
> stone's throw from San Francisco, where everyone spoke American English, 
> and the majority of them had a college education.  I had plenty of good 
> examples to learn from.
>
> HTH.
> Gunny
>
> See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
> See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
> Blogs: www.DataDevilDog.BlogSpot.com, www.DatabaseTips.BlogSpot.com
> http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/expert_contributors2.html for contact 
> info.
>
> 

'69 Camaro wrote:

> "Bob Badour" <bbadour@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
> news:46897a3e$0$4330$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
> 
>>'69 Camaro wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>Check your standard English dictionary.
>>>>
>>>>I did, and english is not always capitalized like it is in your standard 
>>>>english dictionary.
>>>
>>>Which standard English dictionary are you using, and what year was it 
>>>published?
>>
>>I am using my standard english dictionary. Not yet published.
> 
> That explains a lot.

Okay, everyone else can agree that nits are for gits then.

"Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message 
news:Hleii.112$rL1.63@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net...

X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net

Duly reported. 

Well, that makes four. :-)

"Keith Wilby" <here@there.com> wrote in message 
news:4689f6f9$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
> "Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message 
> news:Hleii.112$rL1.63@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net...
>
> X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net
>
> Duly reported. 

"Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message 
news:a1gii.23803$C96.22249@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
> Well, that makes two people who didn't get my humor. Guess I'll have to 
> work on taking my tongue out of my cheek a little......
>

I didn't get your humour either.  Perhaps, when there might be an element of 
doubt on the part of your audience, a light sprinkling of emoticons might 
help get across your motive. BTW, "humor" and "tongue"? ;-)

Keith. 

"Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message 
news:96nii.239$bz7.216@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> Well, that makes four. :-)
>

Do you notice a common denominator here Neil?  A trend?  It's you.  It was 
not obvious at all that you were trying to be humorous, after all, this is a 
serious discussion board.  I wouldn't expect to go to an Access seminar to 
have a custard pie splatted into my face by a clown.  I'm a Brit and I do 
have a SOH but I don't go to serious discussion boards to exercise it, 
barring the occasional one-liner.  I couldn't resist correcting your English 
but didn't expect some sort of Spanish Inquisition.

;-) 

Well, clearly, it was a bit too dry. I, personally, thought it was obvious I 
was joking. "Brits don't know nothing"? "Learn proper American English, and 
learn how to talk good"? I thought it was so obviously farcical. Oh well. I 
guess emoticons it is. But emoticons are like a wink, you know? Could you 
imagine Monty Python winking at their audience to let them know they were 
joking? I don't think so. But, the again, I'm not Monty Python. ;-)

And, yes, "humor" and "tongue" are the proper spellings. See, in the social 
evolutionary scheme of things, we Americans represent the next stage of 
evolution after you Brits. So, just as we took the legal system that you 
developed and made it better, so we also took all your rough spellings and 
corrected them to what they should be. You can thank us later.

(THAT........ WAS........ A........... JOKE............. And here's proof 
that it was a joke:  ;-)  )


"Keith Wilby" <here@there.com> wrote in message 
news:4689fb63$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
> "Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message 
> news:a1gii.23803$C96.22249@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>> Well, that makes two people who didn't get my humor. Guess I'll have to 
>> work on taking my tongue out of my cheek a little......
>>
>
> I didn't get your humour either.  Perhaps, when there might be an element 
> of doubt on the part of your audience, a light sprinkling of emoticons 
> might help get across your motive. BTW, "humor" and "tongue"? ;-)
>
> Keith. 

"Keith Wilby" <here@there.com> wrote in message 
news:468a02a2$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
> "Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message 
> news:96nii.239$bz7.216@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>> Well, that makes four. :-)
>>
>
> Do you notice a common denominator here Neil?  A trend?  It's you.

I don't know. I think five's a trend. Four's just a pattern.

> It was not obvious at all that you were trying to be humorous, after all, 
> this is a serious discussion board.

A serious discussion board, but a way, way off-topic thread that had nothing 
to do with programming.

> I wouldn't expect to go to an Access seminar to have a custard pie 
> splatted into my face by a clown.

How dare you insult my humor that way! It was not like a custard pie to the 
face! It was more like a water pistol to the eyes. How dare you!

> I'm a Brit and I do have a SOH but I don't go to serious discussion boards 
> to exercise it, barring the occasional one-liner.

OK, so mine was about five lines. So one line's OK; five lines are not OK. 
What about two or three lines? Where do you draw the line on lines?

> I couldn't resist correcting your English

I think you're confused. You corrected Bob's English. Then I corrected your 
correction of Bob's English. Then Gunny corrected my correction of your 
correction of Bob's English. Then I replied to Gunny in a whimsical fashion 
because the whole thing had gotten so out of hand that the truth seemed more 
farcical than the farce.

(By the way, don't feel bad about confusing me with Bob. I confused you with 
Gunny, thinking he was a Brit. It's easy to do.)

> but didn't expect some sort of Spanish Inquisition.

Well now you're really confused. I don't even speak Spanish........

:-)

Neil

>
> ;-) 

On Jul 3, 6:38 am, "Bruce C. Baker" <b...@undisclosedlocation.net>
wrote:

> Sorry, old boy, but actually it's "Wherever the white man has /departed/,
> everything is in ruins."

You could say that, but you have to be someplace for a while to depart
from it.

>Seems that while the natives are capable of
> enjoying the fruits of civilization, they aren't quite capable of
> maintaining it. Pity, really.

Seemingly, many "natives" of the western world don't quite realize
they reached the "civilized" status about a few thousand years after
the natives of Asia, Africa and South America. And that the bulk of
"fruits of civilization" of a few thousands of years might actually
far outweigh a few centuries of discoveries and fantastic inventions.
Please check out a few good history books at a standard library close
to you.

>> I wouldn't have responded to the OP's post at
>> all had he not dissed /my/ tribe. It's a little disingenuous to bash the
>> "white man" while simultaneously enjoying the benefits of western European
>> medicine, technology, political traditions, etc.!

Since you're mentioning the benefits of western European inventions
and ideas, read above, and once again, check out a good library.
Points to ponder: Jesus Christ was not white and actually Asian. Even
today children from the Indian subcontinent are taught to count with
their fingers differently than most parts of the world; but that's
only because they discovered the decimal system, not to mention matrix
algebra and the concept of zero in mathematics.

You've truly made this an East vs West issue here. If you *had* read
my post as a whole, you'd have realized I wasn't attempting to
belittle western civilization or even the white man. I've already
mentioned this in my previous post, so I'm not going to waste more
words on this.

End note(s): a. I can't help it if you intend to jump to conclusions
without even bothering to comprehend what I actually wrote. b. It's
not nice to project anyone's native civilization or race in an
inferior fashion, nor is it proper. c. These kind of discussions
shouldn't be taken further for sake of relevance in c.d.o.s. or just
about any technical group. d. You might want to check out previous
posts of a user in case the issue has been covered and before you
decide to make a fuss about it.

Keith Wilby wrote:

> "Neil" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message 
> news:96nii.239$bz7.216@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> 
>> Well, that makes four. :-)
>>
> 
> Do you notice a common denominator here Neil?  A trend?  It's you.  It 
> was not obvious at all that you were trying to be humorous, after all, 
> this is a serious discussion board.  I wouldn't expect to go to an 
> Access seminar to have a custard pie splatted into my face by a clown.  
> I'm a Brit and I do have a SOH but I don't go to serious discussion 
> boards to exercise it, barring the occasional one-liner.  I couldn't 
> resist correcting your English but didn't expect some sort of Spanish 
> Inquisition.
> 
> ;-)

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

On Jun 30, 3:31 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> hpuxrac wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 10:12 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>
> >>dreamznatcher wrote:
>
> >>>Hello,
> >>>I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
> >>>need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
> >>>graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
> >>>driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>
> >>>[My questions:]
> >>>1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
> >>>profile do I fit in?
>
> >>You don't fit into any specific hash bucket but rather likely have
> >>the ability to morph into whichever one you wish.
>
> >>Rather than approaching it from the standpoint of "I'm a square peg
> >>which hole should I put myself in?" Turn it around and say "I am a
> >>morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy being in?"
>
> >>>2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
> >>>professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
> >>>with?
>
> >>Best place to look is dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com, etc. But
> >>the job market today is not the job market of tomorrow. Certainly
> >>there are some things that are safer bets than others. One can
> >>essentially guarantee Oracle will still be around in 20 years whereas
> >>one can be rather certain a large number of products and companies
> >>will not be: At least not in their current form.
>
> >>>3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
> >>>optimally?
>
> >>Depends on what you want to be doing when you are 57 years old. The
> >>only correct answer is asking strangers is a sure road to disaster.
>
> >>>4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
> >>>databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
> >>>mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)
>
> >>What country? I'm not aware of one in the US but you might want to
> >>contact Professor Carl Dudley at University of Wolverhampton with
> >>respect to the EU.
>
> >>>_Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
>
> >>>[I'm proficient in: ]
> >>>- Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
> >>>- Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
> >>>- Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
>
> >>>- HTML, DHTML, CSS
> >>>- JS, PHP
> >>>- Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
>
> >>To be brutally honest with you ... no you aren't. One of the things
> >>that gets me to toss a resume into the discard pile when looking at
> >>resumes is a laundry list of technologies so vast no person could
> >>possibly be competent in all of them. Above is such a list and not
> >>only are you not proficient in all of them neither is anyone else.
>
> >>Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except in
> >>HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>
> >>--
> >>Daniel A. Morgan
> >>University of Washington
> >>damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> >>Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>
> > Mr. Morgan said "I'm a morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy
> > being in"?.
>
> > Yikes.
>
> He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could
> learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so
> he assumes everybody else is too.

He didn't say nobody could learn them.  He said nobody could be
*proficient* in *all* of them.  And I would add "especially at the
apparently young age of the OP".

EdStevens wrote:
> On Jun 30, 3:31 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 
>>hpuxrac wrote:
>>
>>>On Jun 30, 10:12 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>>
>>>>dreamznatcher wrote:
>>
>>>>>Hello,
>>>>>I'm considering a career switch to a more database-related job, but
>>>>>need help on a few questions and issues. I'm a Computer Engineering
>>>>>graduate and have always felt most comfortable creating database-
>>>>>driven applications, preferably for web portals.
>>
>>>>>[My questions:]
>>>>>1. What are the most viable career options for me out there? What
>>>>>profile do I fit in?
>>
>>>>You don't fit into any specific hash bucket but rather likely have
>>>>the ability to morph into whichever one you wish.
>>
>>>>Rather than approaching it from the standpoint of "I'm a square peg
>>>>which hole should I put myself in?" Turn it around and say "I am a
>>>>morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy being in?"
>>
>>>>>2. What is the current job market/salary situation for database
>>>>>professionals? With my current skills, what kind of job might I end up
>>>>>with?
>>
>>>>Best place to look is dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com, etc. But
>>>>the job market today is not the job market of tomorrow. Certainly
>>>>there are some things that are safer bets than others. One can
>>>>essentially guarantee Oracle will still be around in 20 years whereas
>>>>one can be rather certain a large number of products and companies
>>>>will not be: At least not in their current form.
>>
>>>>>3. What are the stuff I should focus/learn to advance my skills
>>>>>optimally?
>>
>>>>Depends on what you want to be doing when you are 57 years old. The
>>>>only correct answer is asking strangers is a sure road to disaster.
>>
>>>>>4. And finally, is there any university degree (MS) specializing in
>>>>>databases anywhere? (I'm also deeply interested in the internal
>>>>>mechanism/theoretical aspect of databases.)
>>
>>>>What country? I'm not aware of one in the US but you might want to
>>>>contact Professor Carl Dudley at University of Wolverhampton with
>>>>respect to the EU.
>>
>>>>>_Please read my (following) profile before replying!_
>>
>>>>>[I'm proficient in: ]
>>>>>- Oracle (8i, 9i), MySQL (4.1.xx), MS Access
>>>>>- Have working knowledge of SQL Server 2000
>>>>>- Intend to learn SQLite and MySQL 5 soon
>>
>>>>>- HTML, DHTML, CSS
>>>>>- JS, PHP
>>>>>- Intend to learn AJAX, JSON, ASP.Net soon
>>
>>>>To be brutally honest with you ... no you aren't. One of the things
>>>>that gets me to toss a resume into the discard pile when looking at
>>>>resumes is a laundry list of technologies so vast no person could
>>>>possibly be competent in all of them. Above is such a list and not
>>>>only are you not proficient in all of them neither is anyone else.
>>
>>>>Lists like this create an immediate negative impression except in
>>>>HR departments staffed by former shoe salesmen. <g>
>>>>--
>>>>Daniel A. Morgan
>>>>University of Washington
>>>>damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>>>>Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>>
>>>Mr. Morgan said "I'm a morphable peg and which hole would I most enjoy
>>>being in"?.
>>
>>>Yikes.
>>
>>He also said the above is a long list of technologies that nobody could
>>learn. I suspect he is mentally retarded and doesn't realize it yet so
>>he assumes everybody else is too.
> 
> He didn't say nobody could learn them.  He said nobody could be
> *proficient* in *all* of them.  And I would add "especially at the
> apparently young age of the OP".

The truth of the matter is if one has a solid foundation, one can easily 
become proficient in all of those technologies quite rapidly. Age is 
irrelevant.

Before I started university, I had spent more time playing with 
computers than most graduates. And quite frankly, I had not spent as 
much time as say Bill Gates had when he was in highschool. Obviously, 
Gates had a sound background in compilation and numerical methods before 
he wrote the first version of Microsoft Basic--prior to dropping out of 
school.

Bob Badour wrote:

> The truth of the matter is if one has a solid foundation, one can easily 
> become proficient in all of those technologies quite rapidly. Age is 
> irrelevant.

So why don't you take the offer that has been made for you to become
a guest lecturer at the University of Washington and demonstrate your
proficiency in just one of these products?

The truth is that you hang out at c.d.theory because it is a great
place to pontificate without ever having to demonstrate any actual
ability. Sort of like the difference between studying philosophy
and physics in school.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

On Jul 1, 11:55 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>
> incompetent < mediocre < average < good < proficient < expert
>
> Most people, in any field of endeavor are average. That is the meaning
> of the word.

I see. So it is your contention then, that if I had a table of people
and their associated ability, rated according to your six point
scale above, and I wanted to know which these was the most
common, that I would use avg() to find out? Or is it perhaps
the case that "average" can mean different things, like,
say, "proficient" does?


> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org

It is amazing to me that someone who touts his association
with a university in every post appears to believe that
product training is the overarching technical accomplishment
that one might aspire to. Indeed, you don't even seem to
acknowledge the existence of any other kind of achievement.
Are we to assume that your role at the University of
Washington is that you are their DBA? Or should we
instead assume that a degree from the University of
Washington is designed to maximize one's investment
in Oracle products?

Shall you now challenge me to stand at a podium
and recite trivia? Can I choose my own area of
trivia, because I would prefer movies over Oracle
10g, since I enjoy the former and have no interest
in the latter. Certainly if I can tell you who starred
in this movie or that, or can recite backstage
anecdotes or quotes from interviews, it means
I have a tremendous aesthetic sense, right?
For what else is there in life but the memorization
of large numbers of accidental consequences
of man-made artifacts? Doctors, mathematicians,
scientists, etc., what good are they? The lawyer
is the only one who is truly proficient in understanding
the natural world.


Marshall

"dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1183454132.291334.241840@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 3, 6:38 am, "Bruce C. Baker" <b...@undisclosedlocation.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, old boy, but actually it's "Wherever the white man has /departed/,
>> everything is in ruins."
>
> You could say that, but you have to be someplace for a while to depart
> from it.
>
>>Seems that while the natives are capable of
>> enjoying the fruits of civilization, they aren't quite capable of
>> maintaining it. Pity, really.
>
> Seemingly, many "natives" of the western world don't quite realize
> they reached the "civilized" status about a few thousand years after
> the natives of Asia, Africa and South America. And that the bulk of
> "fruits of civilization" of a few thousands of years might actually
> far outweigh a few centuries of discoveries and fantastic inventions.
> Please check out a few good history books at a standard library close
> to you.
>
>>> I wouldn't have responded to the OP's post at
>>> all had he not dissed /my/ tribe. It's a little disingenuous to bash the
>>> "white man" while simultaneously enjoying the benefits of western 
>>> European
>>> medicine, technology, political traditions, etc.!
>
> Since you're mentioning the benefits of western European inventions
> and ideas, read above, and once again, check out a good library.
> Points to ponder: Jesus Christ was not white and actually Asian. Even
> today children from the Indian subcontinent are taught to count with
> their fingers differently than most parts of the world; but that's
> only because they discovered the decimal system, not to mention matrix
> algebra and the concept of zero in mathematics.
>
> You've truly made this an East vs West issue here. If you *had* read
> my post as a whole, you'd have realized I wasn't attempting to
> belittle western civilization or even the white man. I've already
> mentioned this in my previous post, so I'm not going to waste more
> words on this.
>
> End note(s): a. I can't help it if you intend to jump to conclusions
> without even bothering to comprehend what I actually wrote. b. It's
> not nice to project anyone's native civilization or race in an
> inferior fashion, nor is it proper. c. These kind of discussions
> shouldn't be taken further for sake of relevance in c.d.o.s. or just
> about any technical group. d. You might want to check out previous
> posts of a user in case the issue has been covered and before you
> decide to make a fuss about it.
>

I bow to your superior intellect.

Bruce C. Baker wrote:

> "dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:1183454132.291334.241840@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>On Jul 3, 6:38 am, "Bruce C. Baker" <b...@undisclosedlocation.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Sorry, old boy, but actually it's "Wherever the white man has /departed/,
>>>everything is in ruins."
>>
>>You could say that, but you have to be someplace for a while to depart
>>from it.
>>
>>>Seems that while the natives are capable of
>>>enjoying the fruits of civilization, they aren't quite capable of
>>>maintaining it. Pity, really.
>>
>>Seemingly, many "natives" of the western world don't quite realize
>>they reached the "civilized" status about a few thousand years after
>>the natives of Asia, Africa and South America. And that the bulk of
>>"fruits of civilization" of a few thousands of years might actually
>>far outweigh a few centuries of discoveries and fantastic inventions.
>>Please check out a few good history books at a standard library close
>>to you.

I would take a decade of vigorous progress over a millenium of 
stagnation and regression. I note too that not all of Asia seems equally 
equipped to create large unified societies even if China and Japan are 
so equipped.

[snip]

Bruce C. Baker wrote:

> "dreamznatcher" <tashfeenmahmud@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:1183454132.291334.241840@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>On Jul 3, 6:38 am, "Bruce C. Baker" <b...@undisclosedlocation.net>
>>wrote:

[snip]

>>Since you're mentioning the benefits of western European inventions
>>and ideas, read above, and once again, check out a good library.
>>Points to ponder: Jesus Christ was not white and actually Asian. Even
>>today children from the Indian subcontinent are taught to count with
>>their fingers differently than most parts of the world; but that's
>>only because they discovered the decimal system, not to mention matrix
>>algebra and the concept of zero in mathematics.

More importantly, what are they doing with those inventions today? How 
are they using them to create large unified societies or to increase 
productivity for raising living standards?

[snip]

Marshall wrote:
> On Jul 1, 11:55 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>> incompetent < mediocre < average < good < proficient < expert
>>
>> Most people, in any field of endeavor are average. That is the meaning
>> of the word.
> 
> I see. So it is your contention then, that if I had a table of people
> and their associated ability, rated according to your six point
> scale above, and I wanted to know which these was the most
> common, that I would use avg() to find out? Or is it perhaps
> the case that "average" can mean different things, like,
> say, "proficient" does?
> 
> 
>> Daniel A. Morgan
>> University of Washington
>> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
> 
> It is amazing to me that someone who touts his association
> with a university in every post appears to believe that
> product training is the overarching technical accomplishment
> that one might aspire to. Indeed, you don't even seem to
> acknowledge the existence of any other kind of achievement.
> Are we to assume that your role at the University of
> Washington is that you are their DBA? Or should we
> instead assume that a degree from the University of
> Washington is designed to maximize one's investment
> in Oracle products?
> 
> Shall you now challenge me to stand at a podium
> and recite trivia? Can I choose my own area of
> trivia, because I would prefer movies over Oracle
> 10g, since I enjoy the former and have no interest
> in the latter. Certainly if I can tell you who starred
> in this movie or that, or can recite backstage
> anecdotes or quotes from interviews, it means
> I have a tremendous aesthetic sense, right?
> For what else is there in life but the memorization
> of large numbers of accidental consequences
> of man-made artifacts? Doctors, mathematicians,
> scientists, etc., what good are they? The lawyer
> is the only one who is truly proficient in understanding
> the natural world.
> 
> 
> Marshall

It is my contention that words have meaning and that one
can discern that meaning by looking into a book called a
dictionary.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

On 3 juil, 19:29, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> Marshall wrote:
> > On Jul 1, 11:55 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> >> incompetent < mediocre < average < good < proficient < expert
>
> >> Most people, in any field of endeavor are average. That is the meaning
> >> of the word.
>
> > I see. So it is your contention then, that if I had a table of people
> > and their associated ability, rated according to your six point
> > scale above, and I wanted to know which these was the most
> > common, that I would use avg() to find out? Or is it perhaps
> > the case that "average" can mean different things, like,
> > say, "proficient" does?
>
> >> Daniel A. Morgan
> >> University of Washington
> >> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> >> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>
> > It is amazing to me that someone who touts his association
> > with a university in every post appears to believe that
> > product training is the overarching technical accomplishment
> > that one might aspire to. Indeed, you don't even seem to
> > acknowledge the existence of any other kind of achievement.
> > Are we to assume that your role at the University of
> > Washington is that you are their DBA? Or should we
> > instead assume that a degree from the University of
> > Washington is designed to maximize one's investment
> > in Oracle products?
>
> > Shall you now challenge me to stand at a podium
> > and recite trivia? Can I choose my own area of
> > trivia, because I would prefer movies over Oracle
> > 10g, since I enjoy the former and have no interest
> > in the latter. Certainly if I can tell you who starred
> > in this movie or that, or can recite backstage
> > anecdotes or quotes from interviews, it means
> > I have a tremendous aesthetic sense, right?
> > For what else is there in life but the memorization
> > of large numbers of accidental consequences
> > of man-made artifacts? Doctors, mathematicians,
> > scientists, etc., what good are they? The lawyer
> > is the only one who is truly proficient in understanding
> > the natural world.
>
> > Marshall
>
> It is my contention that words have meaning and that one
> can discern that meaning by looking into a book called a
> dictionary.
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org

Looking at the entire sum of your posts, I neither understand the
points you are trying to make nor I qualify them as relevant to
database theory.  It is safe to say that you have not posted so far
anything of inherent value that can not be found on an ORACLE
brochure.

In other words, all you have established so far to Marshall and
several others here is a biased product driven perception of science.
I am curious as to what you are trying to achieve in doing that ?

"Cimode" <cimode@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1183485424.196197.117760@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 3 juil, 19:29, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>> Marshall wrote:
>> > On Jul 1, 11:55 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>> >> incompetent < mediocre < average < good < proficient < expert
>>
>> >> Most people, in any field of endeavor are average. That is the meaning
>> >> of the word.
>>
>> > I see. So it is your contention then, that if I had a table of people
>> > and their associated ability, rated according to your six point
>> > scale above, and I wanted to know which these was the most
>> > common, that I would use avg() to find out? Or is it perhaps
>> > the case that "average" can mean different things, like,
>> > say, "proficient" does?
>>
>> >> Daniel A. Morgan
>> >> University of Washington
>> >> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>> >> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>>
>> > It is amazing to me that someone who touts his association
>> > with a university in every post appears to believe that
>> > product training is the overarching technical accomplishment
>> > that one might aspire to. Indeed, you don't even seem to
>> > acknowledge the existence of any other kind of achievement.
>> > Are we to assume that your role at the University of
>> > Washington is that you are their DBA? Or should we
>> > instead assume that a degree from the University of
>> > Washington is designed to maximize one's investment
>> > in Oracle products?
>>
>> > Shall you now challenge me to stand at a podium
>> > and recite trivia? Can I choose my own area of
>> > trivia, because I would prefer movies over Oracle
>> > 10g, since I enjoy the former and have no interest
>> > in the latter. Certainly if I can tell you who starred
>> > in this movie or that, or can recite backstage
>> > anecdotes or quotes from interviews, it means
>> > I have a tremendous aesthetic sense, right?
>> > For what else is there in life but the memorization
>> > of large numbers of accidental consequences
>> > of man-made artifacts? Doctors, mathematicians,
>> > scientists, etc., what good are they? The lawyer
>> > is the only one who is truly proficient in understanding
>> > the natural world.
>>
>> > Marshall
>>
>> It is my contention that words have meaning and that one
>> can discern that meaning by looking into a book called a
>> dictionary.
>> --
>> Daniel A. Morgan
>> University of Washington
>> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>
> Looking at the entire sum of your posts, I neither understand the
> points you are trying to make nor I qualify them as relevant to
> database theory.  It is safe to say that you have not posted so far
> anything of inherent value that can not be found on an ORACLE
> brochure.
>
> In other words, all you have established so far to Marshall and
> several others here is a biased product driven perception of science.
> I am curious as to what you are trying to achieve in doing that ?
>

Since it was originally my post that caused DA Morgan to offer his scale of 
DBA abilities, let me come to his defense here (not that he really needs my 
assistance): I suspect his mention of RMAN is a consequence of his posting 
from within c.d.o.s, and not from any belief on his part that only Oracle 
DBAs are "real DBAs" or that Oracle encompasses the totality of database 
knowledge.

Take a step back, folks, and consider the context.

Bruce C. Baker wrote:

> "Cimode" <cimode@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:1183485424.196197.117760@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>On 3 juil, 19:29, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Marshall wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Jul 1, 11:55 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>incompetent < mediocre < average < good < proficient < expert
>>>
>>>>>Most people, in any field of endeavor are average. That is the meaning
>>>>>of the word.
>>>
>>>>I see. So it is your contention then, that if I had a table of people
>>>>and their associated ability, rated according to your six point
>>>>scale above, and I wanted to know which these was the most
>>>>common, that I would use avg() to find out? Or is it perhaps
>>>>the case that "average" can mean different things, like,
>>>>say, "proficient" does?
>>>
>>>>>Daniel A. Morgan
>>>>>University of Washington
>>>>>damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>>>>>Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>>>
>>>>It is amazing to me that someone who touts his association
>>>>with a university in every post appears to believe that
>>>>product training is the overarching technical accomplishment
>>>>that one might aspire to. Indeed, you don't even seem to
>>>>acknowledge the existence of any other kind of achievement.
>>>>Are we to assume that your role at the University of
>>>>Washington is that you are their DBA? Or should we
>>>>instead assume that a degree from the University of
>>>>Washington is designed to maximize one's investment
>>>>in Oracle products?
>>>
>>>>Shall you now challenge me to stand at a podium
>>>>and recite trivia? Can I choose my own area of
>>>>trivia, because I would prefer movies over Oracle
>>>>10g, since I enjoy the former and have no interest
>>>>in the latter. Certainly if I can tell you who starred
>>>>in this movie or that, or can recite backstage
>>>>anecdotes or quotes from interviews, it means
>>>>I have a tremendous aesthetic sense, right?
>>>>For what else is there in life but the memorization
>>>>of large numbers of accidental consequences
>>>>of man-made artifacts? Doctors, mathematicians,
>>>>scientists, etc., what good are they? The lawyer
>>>>is the only one who is truly proficient in understanding
>>>>the natural world.
>>>
>>>>Marshall
>>>
>>>It is my contention that words have meaning and that one
>>>can discern that meaning by looking into a book called a
>>>dictionary.
>>>--
>>>Daniel A. Morgan
>>>University of Washington
>>>damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>>>Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>>
>>Looking at the entire sum of your posts, I neither understand the
>>points you are trying to make nor I qualify them as relevant to
>>database theory.  It is safe to say that you have not posted so far
>>anything of inherent value that can not be found on an ORACLE
>>brochure.
>>
>>In other words, all you have established so far to Marshall and
>>several others here is a biased product driven perception of science.
>>I am curious as to what you are trying to achieve in doing that ?
> 
> Since it was originally my post that caused DA Morgan to offer his scale of 
> DBA abilities, let me come to his defense here (not that he really needs my 
> assistance): I suspect his mention of RMAN is a consequence of his posting 
> from within c.d.o.s, and not from any belief on his part that only Oracle 
> DBAs are "real DBAs" or that Oracle encompasses the totality of database 
> knowledge.
> 
> Take a step back, folks, and consider the context.

Frankly, the context doesn't change my evaluation of Morgan.

On 3 juil, 20:20, "Bruce C. Baker" <b...@undisclosedlocation.net>
wrote:
> "Cimode" <cim...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183485424.196197.117760@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 3 juil, 19:29, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> >> Marshall wrote:
> >> > On Jul 1, 11:55 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> >> >> incompetent < mediocre < average < good < proficient < expert
>
> >> >> Most people, in any field of endeavor are average. That is the meaning
> >> >> of the word.
>
> >> > I see. So it is your contention then, that if I had a table of people
> >> > and their associated ability, rated according to your six point
> >> > scale above, and I wanted to know which these was the most
> >> > common, that I would use avg() to find out? Or is it perhaps
> >> > the case that "average" can mean different things, like,
> >> > say, "proficient" does?
>
> >> >> Daniel A. Morgan
> >> >> University of Washington
> >> >> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> >> >> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>
> >> > It is amazing to me that someone who touts his association
> >> > with a university in every post appears to believe that
> >> > product training is the overarching technical accomplishment
> >> > that one might aspire to. Indeed, you don't even seem to
> >> > acknowledge the existence of any other kind of achievement.
> >> > Are we to assume that your role at the University of
> >> > Washington is that you are their DBA? Or should we
> >> > instead assume that a degree from the University of
> >> > Washington is designed to maximize one's investment
> >> > in Oracle products?
>
> >> > Shall you now challenge me to stand at a podium
> >> > and recite trivia? Can I choose my own area of
> >> > trivia, because I would prefer movies over Oracle
> >> > 10g, since I enjoy the former and have no interest
> >> > in the latter. Certainly if I can tell you who starred
> >> > in this movie or that, or can recite backstage
> >> > anecdotes or quotes from interviews, it means
> >> > I have a tremendous aesthetic sense, right?
> >> > For what else is there in life but the memorization
> >> > of large numbers of accidental consequences
> >> > of man-made artifacts? Doctors, mathematicians,
> >> > scientists, etc., what good are they? The lawyer
> >> > is the only one who is truly proficient in understanding
> >> > the natural world.
>
> >> > Marshall
>
> >> It is my contention that words have meaning and that one
> >> can discern that meaning by looking into a book called a
> >> dictionary.
> >> --
> >> Daniel A. Morgan
> >> University of Washington
> >> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
> >> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
>
> > Looking at the entire sum of your posts, I neither understand the
> > points you are trying to make nor I qualify them as relevant to
> > database theory.  It is safe to say that you have not posted so far
> > anything of inherent value that can not be found on an ORACLE
> > brochure.
>
> > In other words, all you have established so far to Marshall and
> > several others here is a biased product driven perception of science.
> > I am curious as to what you are trying to achieve in doing that ?
>
> Since it was originally my post that caused DA Morgan to offer his scale of
> DBA abilities, let me come to his defense here (not that he really needs my
> assistance): I suspect his mention of RMAN is a consequence of his posting
> from within c.d.o.s, and not from any belief on his part that only Oracle
> DBAs are "real DBAs" or that Oracle encompasses the totality of database
> knowledge.
>
> Take a step back, folks, and consider the context.
Context is irrelevant to an oracle borg mentality...

The bard also gave us:
"by my life, this is my lady’s hand! These be her very c’s,
her u’s, and her t’s, and thus makes she her great P’s."
Malvalio, Twelfth Night – Act II Scene 5.
Read it out loud

dreamznatcher wrote:
>> Two points.
>>
>> One, we're not living in Shakespeare's day anymore, so get over it.
>
>You obviously have no idea of the impact Shakespeare has had on the
>English language, and the many idioms and phrases and metaphors which
>he created that are still commonly being used today, by American
>English speakers and British English speakers alike, and just about by
>any anyone on any part of the globe speaking English.
>
>> And two, Brits don't know nothing. If they did, then they wouldn't have lost
>> their world empire, and wouldn't have needed us to bail them out in WWII.
>
>Let's take that discussion further.
>Wherever the white man goes, everything is left is ruins. Starting
>from the colonial times and following to the present day, consider
>reading the histories of the Indian subcontinent, South America,
>Africa, the Middle East, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, with perhaps Iran
>and Venezuela to follow. And let's not even talk about the Red
>Indians.
>
>But does all that even make any sense now? History has had its course.
>I wasn't born in times when my country was under colonial rule. The
>effects are still there, but since it doesn't belong to my lifespan-
>radius, I can't really complain, and neither can you brag or bark. Get
>frank. Not nice to be rude to people in that fashion.
>
>> So, since, if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German anyway, I suggest
>> you learn proper American English, and learn how to talk good. That's what I
>> say!
>
>Okay Neil, let's play your game!
>Okay, this is American English going, one-two-three! Here we are at
>Madison Square Garden waiting anxiously to see who wins in the fight
>against Iraq. The nasty Iraqis are extremely sleek, though they may be
>poor and underequipped. They're so ugly, we bombed their children and
>splattered cluster bombs all over the place but they still survive.
>Hang on, the ugly Philistines are there at the corner, they're trying
>to get at Uncle Bob but Uncle Bob now has a steel chair and wham! A
>shot to the back of the head. One more Iraqi terrorist down who just
>shot down a chopper with a shotgun. Hang on... hang on right there....
>now there's Fidel Castro in the corner! That slimy bastard! Why can't
>you just die you bastard, die, die, die?... Wait! Tony Blair! Tony
>Blair emerges from the audience! Blair has a chair! Blair has a chair!
>
>Didn't sound pretty, did it?
>Now let's be more sensible. I'm not trying to imply that what's going
>on around the world is right or justified. Nor am I saying the war in
>Iraq or the crisis in the Middle East or the tension between the US
>and Cuba are things I support or advertise. Yours is a great nation
>but it's not without its history of errors and plights. It's the same
>with every nation. But you belong to your nation, and I belong to
>mine, and all I'm saying is, therefore it's not nice to say stuff in
>that manner.

-- 
Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com

> You've truly made this an East vs West issue here. If you *had* read
> my post as a whole, you'd have realized I wasn't attempting to
> belittle western civilization or even the white man. I've already
> mentioned this in my previous post, so I'm not going to waste more
> words on this.

I would have to disagree with you here. You very much did belittle the white 
man. You made the statement that wherever white men have gone, things are 
left in ruins. I replied that mankind, in general, is corrupt, and those in 
power are the most corrupt, and had people of other color been in power, the 
results would have been pretty much the same. You replied, "Maybe, maybe 
not."

So you clearly were stating that there's a difference between white people 
and people of other color -- that it's not just a question of corrupt men 
performing corrupt acts because they're able to, but there's a distinction 
between white people and other people -- or at least that you couldn't deny 
that's what you were saying.

> End note(s): a. I can't help it if you intend to jump to conclusions
> without even bothering to comprehend what I actually wrote. b. It's
> not nice to project anyone's native civilization or race in an
> inferior fashion, nor is it proper.

I agree. See above.

Here in a America, we have a large portion of young African American males 
who are in prison. Why? Are they inherently more criminal than, say, white 
or asian males? Or have circumstances in this country caused that disparity 
to a large extent? Some would say that African Americans are an inferior 
race, less civilized, and, hence, commit more crimes. I call those people 
"racists." I have no doubt that if the tables were turned, and most of the 
opportunities in this country went to black people and white people were in 
the minority, that the prison population would be reversed.

Similarly, on the flip side, too much opportunity, too much power, leads to 
corruptions, abuses of power. And I also think that any other race would act 
the same as whites, if given the same power and opportunity. I similarly 
call any who say otherwise "racists."

Neil