f



Another one bites the dust: Oracle buys Sleepycat Database

http://www.computerworld.com/databasetopics/data/software/story/0,10801,108680,00.html

Pointed out first on the Informix usenet group where they are watching
a great product, first marginalized, now suffering the death of a
thousand paper-cuts.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/14/2006 9:49:44 PM
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DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote:
> http://www.computerworld.com/databasetopics/data/software/story/0,10801,108680,00.html

Is Oracle trying to take over the world?

Laurenz Albe
0
invite (481)
2/15/2006 10:21:54 AM
Laurenz Albe wrote:
> DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote:
> 
>>http://www.computerworld.com/databasetopics/data/software/story/0,10801,108680,00.html
> 
> 
> Is Oracle trying to take over the world?
> 
> Laurenz Albe

Trying?

The world ... no. The world of databases? I think the only company left
that is a serious competitor is Microsoft and SQL Server 2005 is a
ticking time-bomb that may well self-destruct.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/15/2006 8:35:48 PM
In message <1139998913.743341@proxy.dienste.wien.at>, Laurenz Albe 
<invite@spam.to.invalid> writes
>DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote:
>> 
>>http://www.computerworld.com/databasetopics/data/software/story/0,10801
>>,108680,00.html
>
>Is Oracle trying to take over the world?
>

Don't know, but I suspect that there are plenty worse candidates for the 
job.


Adrian
-- 
To Reply :
replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.
0
bulleid (15)
2/15/2006 8:40:59 PM
On 15 Feb 2006 10:21:54 GMT, Laurenz Albe <invite@spam.to.invalid>
wrote:

>DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote:
>> http://www.computerworld.com/databasetopics/data/software/story/0,10801,108680,00.html
>
>Is Oracle trying to take over the world?
>
>Laurenz Albe

Before they can attempt that, they would at least to get Quest out of
the market.
It is quite evident they are working on that.

--
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA
0
postbus (1497)
2/16/2006 7:08:10 PM
That's why its important for all of us (despite our professional
allegiance to Oracle) to support databases such as MySQL and
PostgreSQL. They may not be 'anywhere near Oracle' yet but its
important to keep them going ... with all its supposed support for
open-source, Oracle is not the most benevolent of companies.

0
2/17/2006 12:27:36 AM
kwr2k wrote:
> That's why its important for all of us (despite our professional
> allegiance to Oracle) to support databases such as MySQL and
> PostgreSQL. They may not be 'anywhere near Oracle' yet but its
> important to keep them going ... with all its supposed support for
> open-source, Oracle is not the most benevolent of companies.

Supporting one product versus, or in addition to, another for
political purposes: To what end?

Software is a tool. Choose the best tool for the job. If that tool
is Oracle then use it. If that tool is Pick then use it. If that
tool is MySQL then use it. But to advocate using a tool just to
make a political statement strikes me as a disservice to an employer.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/17/2006 3:25:15 PM
"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
news:1140189906.988831@jetspin.drizzle.com...
>
> Supporting one product versus, or in addition to, another for
> political purposes: To what end?
> <snip>
> Daniel A. Morgan

To what end?

How about protection from monopolies and violations of anti-trust, price 
gouging, treating customers like garbage, etc. 


0
nobody (5159)
2/17/2006 3:28:39 PM
Mark A wrote:
> "DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message 
> news:1140189906.988831@jetspin.drizzle.com...
> 
>>Supporting one product versus, or in addition to, another for
>>political purposes: To what end?
>><snip>
>>Daniel A. Morgan
> 
> 
> To what end?
> 
> How about protection from monopolies and violations of anti-trust, price 
> gouging, treating customers like garbage, etc. 

How does using an open-source product prevent a monopoly?

What are you going to run on PostgreSQL? e-Business Suite? JD Edwards?
PeopleSoft? Siebel? Even SAP?

I understand the sentiment but it is not going to change anything. Be
honest here ... Oracle has surrounded MySQL. They can do the same with
PostgreSQL or any other product in a matter of hours.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/17/2006 4:34:58 PM
DA Morgan schrieb:
> kwr2k wrote:
>> That's why its important for all of us (despite our professional
>> allegiance to Oracle) to support databases such as MySQL and
>> PostgreSQL. They may not be 'anywhere near Oracle' yet but its
>> important to keep them going ... with all its supposed support for
>> open-source, Oracle is not the most benevolent of companies.
> 
> Supporting one product versus, or in addition to, another for
> political purposes: To what end?
> 
> Software is a tool. Choose the best tool for the job. If that tool
> is Oracle then use it. If that tool is Pick then use it. If that
> tool is MySQL then use it. But to advocate using a tool just to
> make a political statement strikes me as a disservice to an employer.
Depends on how important your employer is for you. I don't think
politics is just for politicians. Every citizen ought to be concerned
about how ones country is run, and do what he can to make in run in the
way he likes it.
Supporting an economy without monopolies is desirable, at least for me.
So, I balance the gain/damage to my employer with the gain/damage to my
surrounding society and to me.
For instance, asking my boss for a small donation for some charity will
damage the company a little but improve society.
Asking him to deploy a free database in order to keep oracle on its toes
keeps the economy healthy and if my company can afford it, why not? It's
not as if I'm lying or hiding something. If my boss disagrees, I do what
my boss says.
In the long run, we'd all suffer if free software would be pushed into
unimportance, so with refards to free software I tend to base my advice
not on whether it's the "best" but whether it's good enough. Again, with
100% openness to my employer.

But, in the case of oracle, so far I haven't found MySql good enough.
For me, rman, DataGuard and Metalink are the things MySql has to beat
first.

I don't know about mysql but another thing I like about oracle is its
resilience in the face of crashed processes. There are quite a few processes
that can die without the user noticing. There are a number of other processes
where the user still can continue working, maybe with limitations and where
we can tell the user, log out this evening and then I can start fixing things.

In that regard oracle is a bit like a big ship with safety doors,
pumps and everything so that a real lot has to happen before it sinks.
Other software compares to that like a boat that leaves only a big mushroom
cloud as soon as a screw falls off the railing.

Ok, the big ship needs a bit of effort and skill to keep it going, but there
you are.

Lots of Greetings!
Volker
0
2/17/2006 6:15:08 PM
DA Morgan schrieb:
> I understand the sentiment but it is not going to change anything. Be
> honest here ... Oracle has surrounded MySQL. They can do the same with
> PostgreSQL or any other product in a matter of hours.
"resistance is futile" has never been an acceptable argument against
the necessity of resistance.

Lots of Greetings!
Volker
0
2/17/2006 6:16:48 PM
Volker Hetzer wrote:

> "resistance is futile" has never been an acceptable argument against
> the necessity of resistance.
> 

Ah - but you do know how Data managed the Borg to fade away,
don't you?
-- 
Regards,
Frank van Bortel

Top-posting is one way to shut me up...
0
2/17/2006 7:07:40 PM
>Ah - but you do know how Data managed the Borg to fade away,
>don't you?

A "good virus?"  <shudder>

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/ST-TNG_I%2C_Borg_%28Virus%29.jpg

0
joel-garry (4553)
2/18/2006 12:50:51 AM
Joel Garry wrote:
>> Ah - but you do know how Data managed the Borg to fade away,
>> don't you?
> 
> A "good virus?"  <shudder>
> 
> jg
> --
> @home.com is bogus.
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/ST-TNG_I%2C_Borg_%28Virus%29.jpg
> 

:D
-- 
Regards,
Frank van Bortel

Top-posting is one way to shut me up...
0
2/18/2006 8:43:30 AM
Frank van Bortel wrote:
> Volker Hetzer wrote:
>
> > "resistance is futile" has never been an acceptable argument against
> > the necessity of resistance.
> >
>
> Ah - but you do know how Data managed the Borg to fade away,
> don't you?

Is that a Star Wars reference?  Sorry don't understand relevance to the
posting thread.

0
johnbhurley (2707)
2/18/2006 11:22:35 PM
# I don't know about mysql but another thing I like about oracle is its

# resilience in the face of crashed processes. There are quite a few
processes
# that can die without the user noticing. There are a number of other
processes
# where the user still can continue working, maybe with limitations and
where
# we can tell the user, log out this evening and then I can start
fixing things.

Ummm what oracle processes have you seen crash lately?

It's been a bunch of years since I remember any process actually
barfing and dying on me.

0
johnbhurley (2707)
2/19/2006 12:00:57 AM
hpuxrac schrieb:
> # I don't know about mysql but another thing I like about oracle is its
> 
> # resilience in the face of crashed processes. There are quite a few
> processes
> # that can die without the user noticing. There are a number of other
> processes
> # where the user still can continue working, maybe with limitations and
> where
> # we can tell the user, log out this evening and then I can start
> fixing things.
> 
> Ummm what oracle processes have you seen crash lately?
> 
> It's been a bunch of years since I remember any process actually
> barfing and dying on me.

cjq0 on a regular typically at least once a week, one particular cronjob
sometimes (needs a kill -9) depending on load, the standby database needs
a reboot every couple of weeks and one or two session processes every four
to five months where after 2h I stop trying to distinguish between crash
and whatever else causes this and reboot the database in the evening after
the backup has run.

Ok, when I say "crash" I mean one process using up all cpu load and not
finishing within a few hours or over the weekend.

Lots of Greetings!
Volker
0
2/20/2006 9:43:21 AM
Volker Hetzer wrote:
> DA Morgan schrieb:
> 
>> I understand the sentiment but it is not going to change anything. Be
>> honest here ... Oracle has surrounded MySQL. They can do the same with
>> PostgreSQL or any other product in a matter of hours.
> 
> "resistance is futile" has never been an acceptable argument against
> the necessity of resistance.
> 
> Lots of Greetings!
> Volker

I'll agree the day you refuse to take an antibiotic as a protest against
a pharmaceutical company. ;-)

I am a firm believer in resistance, protest, and if necessary open
rebellion. But to achieve an achievable goal ... not just to be a martyr.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/21/2006 5:18:35 PM
DA Morgan schrieb:
> I'll agree the day you refuse to take an antibiotic as a protest against
> a pharmaceutical company. ;-)
Fortunately I have no problem with pharmaceutical companies. :-)

> 
> I am a firm believer in resistance, protest, and if necessary open
> rebellion. But to achieve an achievable goal ... not just to be a martyr.
I hereby lose this thread according to Godwin's Law:
Germany got quite a history of "martyrs" during the fascist era.
What would you guys call us if we didn't have had a resistance movement?
In 1937 or 1940 (europe conquered, uk a few months away, america neutral) no
sane man would have called the ending of fascism an "achievable" goal. Yet many
risked torture and death (and got it too) for comparatively small aims like
distributing leaflets, putting up posters or sheltering just one jew.

Sometimes the achievable goal is reduced to being able to look into a mirror
without spitting.

Lots of Greetings!
Volker

0
2/21/2006 5:48:07 PM
Volker Hetzer wrote:

> Sometimes the achievable goal is reduced to being able to look into a 
> mirror without spitting.
> 
> Lots of Greetings!
> Volker

I'd use anti-nausea meds, myself, except that I am protesting against
the pharmaceutical industry?  ;-)
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/21/2006 9:50:08 PM
On 2006-02-21, DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote:
> Volker Hetzer wrote:
>> DA Morgan schrieb:
>> 
>>> I understand the sentiment but it is not going to change anything. Be
>>> honest here ... Oracle has surrounded MySQL. They can do the same with
>>> PostgreSQL or any other product in a matter of hours.
>> 
>> "resistance is futile" has never been an acceptable argument against
>> the necessity of resistance.
>> 
>> Lots of Greetings!
>> Volker
>
> I'll agree the day you refuse to take an antibiotic as a protest against
> a pharmaceutical company. ;-)

	No, what's being described is taking penecillin produced by some
cottage company as a protest against whatever patent problems you might
think exist in the pharmacuetical companies.

	Of course the problem with this comparison is the fact that ALL
pharmaceutical company products are fully disclosed and will enter the
public domain in some relatively short and definable time period. Even 
AZT will become public domain (if it hasn't already).

	This process will never occur for any commercial software.

	Oracle7 will never become a commodity, freely producable and 
tradeable by anyone and ready to be an alternative to the current
and expensive flavor of the month.

>
> I am a firm believer in resistance, protest, and if necessary open
> rebellion. But to achieve an achievable goal ... not just to be a martyr.

	I find you amusing on occasion, but not informative.
	
	That is a shame since I don't come into this group for entertainment.

-- 
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
                                                                  |||
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jedi (14754)
2/21/2006 10:09:14 PM
On 2006-02-19, hpuxrac <johnbhurley@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> # I don't know about mysql but another thing I like about oracle is its
>
> # resilience in the face of crashed processes. There are quite a few
> processes
> # that can die without the user noticing. There are a number of other
> processes
> # where the user still can continue working, maybe with limitations and
> where
> # we can tell the user, log out this evening and then I can start
> fixing things.
>
> Ummm what oracle processes have you seen crash lately?
>
> It's been a bunch of years since I remember any process actually
> barfing and dying on me.

	Are you kidding? I see dataguard processes trip over themselves
all the time. You don't even want to get me started about enterprise
manager. Oracle has a very strong core competency. Venture much outside
of that and you might as well be running something licenced under the 
GPL.

	Time will eventually catch up with Oracle and the freebies 
will get "good enough". The market will begin to erode like it has
for Sun. The rubes that would buy Oracle just for the big name won't
anymore.

	I wouldn't run postgres in my current shop. However, it could
have been quite at home in some of the other ones.

-- 
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
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jedi (14754)
2/21/2006 10:13:02 PM
JEDIDIAH schrieb:
> 	I wouldn't run postgres in my current shop. However, it could
> have been quite at home in some of the other ones.
Don't get me started on that. Tried postgred a couple of years ago,
three crashes on the first morning (parser crashed the whole database
when the sql was erroneus) and then I gave up.

Lots of Greetings!
Volker
0
2/22/2006 12:10:41 PM
> understand the sentiment but it is not going to change anything. Be
> honest here ... Oracle has surrounded MySQL. They can do the same with
> PostgreSQL or any other product in a matter of hours.

Maybe you're not aware but a entirely free product cannot be bought.
PostgreSQL is not like MySQL AB. It is not owned by a company (for
profit, that is). There is a database called Enterprise DB based on
PostgreSQL which claims 90% or higher compatibility with Oracle. I
really do wonder if Oracle can buy 'free products' such as those. So,
although MySQL has helped growth of open-source software, it is the
free (free as in speech) which is more relevant to keep the monopolies
at bay.

Your comment somehow suggest that Oracle may be able to buy 'linux'
(for instance) but anyone who has read the GPL or know about how linux
is developed would probably find your statement funny. This despite the
fact that your replies to Oracle related queries are serious and to the
point. Why is it that 'good' software professionals do not find
anything wrong with monopolies? Or with closed proprietory systems?

0
2/22/2006 11:42:46 PM
> I'll agree the day you refuse to take an antibiotic as a protest against
> a pharmaceutical company. ;-)

> I am a firm believer in resistance, protest, and if necessary open
> rebellion. But to achieve an achievable goal ... not just to be a martyr.

Yeah, you can show your protest there by looking at alternative health
procedures. There are plenty effective ones out there. In case you are
looking at 'western' ones only ;) then go for homeopathy. No, none of
your arguments hold water. Btw, by promoting alternatives, no one is
becoming a martyr ... it is in fact the only way to avoid being crushed.

0
2/22/2006 11:46:09 PM
kwr2k wrote:

> Your comment somehow suggest that Oracle may be able to buy 'linux'
> (for instance) but anyone who has read the GPL or know about how linux
> is developed would probably find your statement funny.

Your comment indicates you didn't understand mine. No corporation or
government would use Linux if it were not for companies such as RedHat
and Novell standing behind them just as there is more FreeBSD named
Apple Mac OSX than there is FreeBSD in corporate data centers. No one
can buy Linux ... that is true. But no one will buy Linux for data
center computing without a solid corporate support organization.

Who has the largest support org on the planet? Oracle!
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/23/2006 5:01:55 PM
kwr2k wrote:
>>I'll agree the day you refuse to take an antibiotic as a protest against
>>a pharmaceutical company. ;-)
> 
> 
>>I am a firm believer in resistance, protest, and if necessary open
>>rebellion. But to achieve an achievable goal ... not just to be a martyr.
> 
> 
> Yeah, you can show your protest there by looking at alternative health
> procedures. There are plenty effective ones out there. In case you are
> looking at 'western' ones only ;) then go for homeopathy. No, none of
> your arguments hold water. Btw, by promoting alternatives, no one is
> becoming a martyr ... it is in fact the only way to avoid being crushed.

It must be fun being a zealot. Next time you get a serious infection by
all means avail yourself of one of those alternative treatments.

Homeopathy? ROFL!
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/23/2006 5:03:15 PM
> It must be fun being a zealot. Next time you get a serious infection by
> all means avail yourself of one of those alternative treatments.

> Homeopathy? ROFL!

It must be fun being a corporate culture junkie!! Because Oracle has
the largest blah, no one can (or should) try to see alternatives ...
hmm isn't that people like you have been saying about windows (when
using unix probably all their life in the data centers?) And yes, you
may ROFL but there's no denying that allopathy also is a monopoly of
sorts. And yes, not to mention the patents they are pushing in the
third world countries as well, where people can barely pay for daily
meals. So how does it save them?
You are a typical western product, Daniel and I don't really blame you
personally for that. It is your last 50 years of brainwashing that is
talking. Do you know what a typical "life saving" allopathic drug costs
in India? around USD 20. Do you know how much is that in INR? Its 1000.
That is monthly salary for at least 40% of India. So, how far have you
been from your ivory tower? My family has grown up consulting
homeopathic doctors and we're doing fine, thank you!
The western society started with the idea of free markets and
competition (they still promote these in obscure countries around the
world) but in their own backyards, its monopolies and more monopolies
in every segment. You are just blindfolded by it all. Not your fault.
Actually one should pity the educated westerners for this, while
illiterate 3rd-world masses are making intelligent choices.

0
2/23/2006 11:28:40 PM
No your contempt for anything but your western megalomaniac ideas need
to be addressed with an example (pay attention Daniel):

My father-in-law who is a Type 2 diabetic was recently diagnosed with
heart trouble as well as failing kidneys -- when I say recently, I mean
6-8 months ago. He went to his allopathic GP who advised him at least a
dozen different tablets and capsules (which I will intentionally call
drugs to force the pun) to pop every day to "live as long as he can".
He was obviously quite disappointed and dejected. They even warned him
he would have to go under the surgeon's knife for his kidneys and get
at least one replace (his kidneys are at 30% efficiency).

However, my father recommended him to try two ROFL treatments (hold
your breath now) homeopathy and yoga. Thankfully he took the advice and
ditched the 1020 different drugs. Today, he feels fitter than he was a
year ago and recovering quickly. He does an hour of yoga in the
mornings and takes one does of homeopathic medicine each night.

Sorry Daniel, but he decided not to pay your monopolies and make them
fatter. Sorry, he didn't care for the billion dollar research (every
year???) that these companies say they put in (when in actual fact,
they are taking ideas right out of alternative medicines like ayurveda
and promoting them with media friendly names).  Hypocrisy is one thing
the western society teaches you so well, doesn't it?

Sorry to everyone on this list. Time and again, one has to stand up and
be counted against this western superiority complex. Isn't that exactly
what the open-source/free software is doing to the Oracles and
Microsofts of the world.

0
2/23/2006 11:41:38 PM
What about the quality of support?

0
johnbhurley (2707)
2/23/2006 11:42:46 PM
On 23 Feb 2006, Kanwar.Plaha@gmail.com wrote:

> Time and again, one has to stand up and be counted against this
> western superiority complex. 

I'm not sure this has anything to do with Western superiority complex
and much more to do with Western propaganda prompted by monied
interests.  A perfect example is chiropractic care.  A good chiropractor
can cure all sorts of pains while "modern" medicine might perscribed
surgery.  Why doesn't the medical community recognize chiropractic care,
or better yet, make it part of medical curriculum?

Probably quite similar to homeopathy care.

I guess this propaganda can translate to Westerners seemingly sounding
like they feel superior, because, I guess we do.  For good reason many
times, but, yes, we westerners still should learn humility.  There's
lots to learn from other practices beyond those which we deem worthy.

-- 
Galen Boyer
0
galen_boyer (146)
2/24/2006 2:42:03 AM
kwr2k schrieb:
> No your contempt for anything but your western megalomaniac ideas need
> to be addressed with an example (pay attention Daniel):
> 
> My father-in-law who is a Type 2 diabetic was recently diagnosed with
> heart trouble as well as failing kidneys -- when I say recently, I mean
> 6-8 months ago. He went to his allopathic GP who advised him at least a
> dozen different tablets and capsules (which I will intentionally call
> drugs to force the pun) to pop every day to "live as long as he can".
> He was obviously quite disappointed and dejected. They even warned him
> he would have to go under the surgeon's knife for his kidneys and get
> at least one replace (his kidneys are at 30% efficiency).
> 
> However, my father recommended him to try two ROFL treatments (hold
> your breath now) homeopathy and yoga. Thankfully he took the advice and
> ditched the 1020 different drugs. Today, he feels fitter than he was a
> year ago and recovering quickly.
So he does sports. So what? If a normal doctor would recommend this he'd
simly lose the patients.
Btw, whenever placebos heal, the patient ought to learn what the mind
can do if you let it work.
But if some of us don't need to be lied to in order to achieve the same,
you shouldn't call us megalomaniacs, ok?

Lots of Greetings!
Volker
0
2/24/2006 12:59:18 PM
Galen Boyer schrieb:
> On 23 Feb 2006, Kanwar.Plaha@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>> Time and again, one has to stand up and be counted against this
>> western superiority complex. 
> 
> I'm not sure this has anything to do with Western superiority complex
Since homoeopathy *is*a western idea, namely a money spinner born out
of misunderstood vaccination principles...

Volker
0
2/24/2006 1:01:48 PM
kwr2k schrieb:
>> It must be fun being a zealot. Next time you get a serious infection by
>> all means avail yourself of one of those alternative treatments.
> 
>> Homeopathy? ROFL!
> 
> It must be fun being a corporate culture junkie!! Because Oracle has
> the largest blah, no one can (or should) try to see alternatives ...
> hmm isn't that people like you have been saying about windows (when
> using unix probably all their life in the data centers?) And yes, you
> may ROFL but there's no denying that allopathy also is a monopoly of
> sorts.
There is? I thought there's lots of vendors?



> You are a typical western product, Daniel and I don't really blame you
> personally for that. It is your last 50 years of brainwashing that is
> talking. Do you know what a typical "life saving" allopathic drug costs
> in India? around USD 20. Do you know how much is that in INR? Its 1000.
> That is monthly salary for at least 40% of India. So, how far have you
> been from your ivory tower? My family has grown up consulting
> homeopathic doctors and we're doing fine, thank you!
Great. Once you get AIDS you cure it wit garlic and olive oil, like those
south african healers recommend, right?
I've seen people dying of that kind of medicine.

Sorry kid, I call something medicine if it passes the standard double blind
test. Everything else is at best psychology, at worst murder for financial gain.

Volker
0
2/24/2006 1:06:14 PM
kwr2k wrote:
> No your contempt for anything but your western megalomaniac ideas need
> to be addressed with an example (pay attention Daniel):

This will be my last off-topic post but you've certainly set the stage
for a dose of reality. I, unfortunately, had the opportunity to live in
the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center for 40 very long days. I did
pay attention. A lot of attention.

I paid attention to all of the people who were living in countries that
have long histories steeped in non-western medicine and a few
individuals who came from a background of alternative medicine.

Those that had the money to be there were. Enough said!

Kill filed so if you want to respond do it off-line.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/24/2006 5:05:25 PM
Volker Hetzer wrote:
> Galen Boyer schrieb:
> 
>> On 23 Feb 2006, Kanwar.Plaha@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Time and again, one has to stand up and be counted against this
>>> western superiority complex. 
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure this has anything to do with Western superiority complex
> 
> Since homoeopathy *is*a western idea, namely a money spinner born out
> of misunderstood vaccination principles...
> 
> Volker

Funny. I thought it was born out of greed and the certain knowledge that
there's a fool born every second.

The following pretty much summarizes homeopathy:

1. More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread eaters.
2. Fully HALF of all children who grow up in bread-consuming households 
score below average on standardized tests.
3. In the 18th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home, 
the average life expectancy was less than 50 years; infant mortality 
rates were unacceptably high; many women died in childbirth; and 
diseases such as typhoid, yellow fever and influenza ravaged whole nations.
4. More than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours 
of eating bread.
5. Bread is made from a substance called "dough." It has been proven 
that as little as one pound of dough can be used to suffocate a mouse. 
The average American eats more bread than that in one month!
6. Primitive tribal societies that have no bread exhibit a low 
occurrence of cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease and osteoporosis.
7. Bread has been proven to be addictive. Subjects deprived of bread and 
given only water to eat begged for bread after only two days.
8. Bread is often a "gateway" food item, leading the user to "harder" 
items such as butter, jelly, peanut butter and even cold cuts.
9. Bread has been proven to absorb water. Since the human body is more 
than 90 percent water, it follows that eating bread could lead to your 
body being taken over by this absorptive food product, turning you into 
a soggy, gooey bread-pudding person.
10. Newborn babies can choke on bread.
11. Bread is baked at temperatures as high as 400 degrees Fahrenheit! 
That kind of heat can kill an adult in less than one minute.
12. Most American bread eaters are utterly unable to distinguish between 
significant scientific fact and meaningless statistical babbling.
-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
0
damorgan3 (6326)
2/24/2006 5:07:23 PM
Volker Hetzer wrote:
> kwr2k schrieb:
> >> It must be fun being a zealot. Next time you get a serious infection by
> >> all means avail yourself of one of those alternative treatments.
> >
> >> Homeopathy? ROFL!
> >
> > It must be fun being a corporate culture junkie!! Because Oracle has
> > the largest blah, no one can (or should) try to see alternatives ...
> > hmm isn't that people like you have been saying about windows (when
> > using unix probably all their life in the data centers?) And yes, you
> > may ROFL but there's no denying that allopathy also is a monopoly of
> > sorts.
> There is? I thought there's lots of vendors?

The purpose of patents is to maintain an monopoly.  The large
pharmaceutical manufacturers are valued based on the cash flow provided
through the excess profit generated.  Watch their stock prices as the
patents expire, it's no secret.  Generic-brand manufacturers gear up to
jump on the products as the patents expire.

The drug development process is so capital and time intensive it is
difficult to get it done before the patents expire or the money runs
out.  A number of Oracle jobs are created or eliminated as a result.

>
>
>
> > You are a typical western product, Daniel and I don't really blame you
> > personally for that. It is your last 50 years of brainwashing that is
> > talking. Do you know what a typical "life saving" allopathic drug costs
> > in India? around USD 20. Do you know how much is that in INR? Its 1000.
> > That is monthly salary for at least 40% of India. So, how far have you
> > been from your ivory tower? My family has grown up consulting
> > homeopathic doctors and we're doing fine, thank you!
> Great. Once you get AIDS you cure it wit garlic and olive oil, like those
> south african healers recommend, right?
> I've seen people dying of that kind of medicine.
>
> Sorry kid, I call something medicine if it passes the standard double blind
> test. Everything else is at best psychology, at worst murder for financial gain.

Some homeopathy is done to scientific standards.  Unfortunately, too
much is quackery, like laetrile clinics in Tijuana.  Some allopathy is
certainly "silver-bullet" quick-fixes, rather than fixing the root
cause.  The majority of US hospital patients are there because of how
they have been medically treated.  Superbugs are being created through
the standard use of antibiotics.  Health Maintenance Organizations
function by assuming people will get usually better on their own no
matter what you do, just worry about it when they don't.  Old people
must choose between food and drugs.

We could go on...

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/health/20060222-1405-diet-arthritis.html

0
joel-garry (4553)
2/24/2006 8:04:46 PM
DA Morgan wrote:
> 1. More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread eaters.
> 2. Fully HALF of all children who grow up in bread-consuming households 
> score below average on standardized tests.
> 3. In the 18th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home, 
> the average life expectancy was less than 50 years; infant mortality 
> rates were unacceptably high; many women died in childbirth; and 
> diseases such as typhoid, yellow fever and influenza ravaged whole nations.
> 4. More than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours 
> of eating bread.
> 5. Bread is made from a substance called "dough." It has been proven 
> that as little as one pound of dough can be used to suffocate a mouse. 
> The average American eats more bread than that in one month!
> 6. Primitive tribal societies that have no bread exhibit a low 
> occurrence of cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease and osteoporosis.
> 7. Bread has been proven to be addictive. Subjects deprived of bread and 
> given only water to eat begged for bread after only two days.
> 8. Bread is often a "gateway" food item, leading the user to "harder" 
> items such as butter, jelly, peanut butter and even cold cuts.
> 9. Bread has been proven to absorb water. Since the human body is more 
> than 90 percent water, it follows that eating bread could lead to your 
> body being taken over by this absorptive food product, turning you into 
> a soggy, gooey bread-pudding person.
> 10. Newborn babies can choke on bread.
> 11. Bread is baked at temperatures as high as 400 degrees Fahrenheit! 
> That kind of heat can kill an adult in less than one minute.
> 12. Most American bread eaters are utterly unable to distinguish between 
> significant scientific fact and meaningless statistical babbling.

Finally something in this newsgroup I can really use!

0
doubleecho (26)
2/25/2006 10:46:35 AM
Reply:

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We're seeking intelligent problem solvers who are inspired and motivated to change the world.


Margo Seltzer (Aaron Swartz's Raw Thought)
part of Ada Lovelace Day Margo Ilene Seltzer was born in rural, upstate New York. “I like to describe it as a place with more cows than people,” ...

Red Hat: recession is good for our business
Linux vendor Red Hat's latest earnings report indicates that the company's …

Contact BitNami
Daniel Lopez, Co-Founder and CEO : Daniel is the Chief Executive Officer of BitNami. Previously, he was CTO of BitRock and part of the original ...

Subclock
I'm in Boston for the inaugural meeting for the public review of version 3 of the GNU General Public License . Given the venue, there is less ...

This Former Yahoo-er's Startup Is So Hot, Even the CIA Invested In It
... Mike Olson . Olson was working with Christophe Bisciglia . Olson was at Oracle, which bought the database company he founded (Sleepycat) in ...

Resources last updated: 3/5/2016 9:03:19 PM