We have quite a few DSP job opening at Northrop Sacramento, CA.
If anyone interest you can visit  www.ms.northropgrumman.com or
send me your resume and I can forward them.

John

On 22 Dec 2003 09:56:13 -0800, John Pham wrote:

> We have quite a few DSP job opening at Northrop Sacramento, CA.
> If anyone interest you can visit  www.ms.northropgrumman.com or
> send me your resume and I can forward them.
> 
> John

On 22 Dec 2003 09:56:13 -0800, jpsc@hotmail.com (John Pham) wrote:

>We have quite a few DSP job opening at Northrop Sacramento, CA.
>If anyone interest you can visit  www.ms.northropgrumman.com or
>send me your resume and I can forward them.
>
>John

Hi,
  what's Northrop paying ($$$) these days
if an employee finds new employees?

It's bit misleading to say there are 
"DSP jobs there.  You should really say 
that these are "System Engineering" jobs 
at an aerospace company with the US 
Govt as their primary customer. 

[-Rick-]

r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote:

>On 22 Dec 2003 09:56:13 -0800, jpsc@hotmail.com (John Pham) wrote:
>
>>We have quite a few DSP job opening at Northrop Sacramento, CA.
>>If anyone interest you can visit  www.ms.northropgrumman.com or
>>send me your resume and I can forward them.
>>
>>John
>
>Hi,
>  what's Northrop paying ($$$) these days
>if an employee finds new employees?
>
>It's bit misleading to say there are 
>"DSP jobs there.  You should really say 
>that these are "System Engineering" jobs 
>at an aerospace company with the US 
>Govt as their primary customer. 

Are you implying that these jobs would be overseeing and coordinating
DSP work being done, as opposed to actually doing it?

Just curious, since I have no intention of moving to Mexifornia.  :-)

Robert

www.gldsp.com



( modify address for return email )

www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:26:52 GMT, r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com
wrote:

>r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote:
>
>>On 22 Dec 2003 09:56:13 -0800, jpsc@hotmail.com (John Pham) wrote:
>>
>>>We have quite a few DSP job opening at Northrop Sacramento, CA.
>>>If anyone interest you can visit  www.ms.northropgrumman.com or
>>>send me your resume and I can forward them.
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>Hi,
>>  what's Northrop paying ($$$) these days
>>if an employee finds new employees?
>>
>>It's bit misleading to say there are 
>>"DSP jobs there.  You should really say 
>>that these are "System Engineering" jobs 
>>at an aerospace company with the US 
>>Govt as their primary customer. 
>
>Are you implying that these jobs would be overseeing and coordinating
>DSP work being done, as opposed to actually doing it?
>
>Just curious, since I have no intention of moving to Mexifornia.  :-)
>
>Robert

Hi,
   well, being an aerospace company, so darn 
much of an engineer's time is spent writing 
documents (as opposed to designing and testing 
DSP systems) required by the Govt customer.
I'd guess about 80% of your time is reading 
and writing documents.

However, a job's a job, and there must be 
plenty of guys looking for a job.  
(Security clearance are required. so guys how've 
spent their entire adult lives smoking dope 
need not apply.)

Mexifornia huh?   What a vicious racist remark!
I'll have you know Robert, there are hundreds of 
people in Sacramento who speak English.   :-)

[-Rick-]

r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote:

>On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:26:52 GMT, r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com
>wrote:
>
>>r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote:
>>
>>>On 22 Dec 2003 09:56:13 -0800, jpsc@hotmail.com (John Pham) wrote:
>>>
>>>>We have quite a few DSP job opening at Northrop Sacramento, CA.
>>>>If anyone interest you can visit  www.ms.northropgrumman.com or
>>>>send me your resume and I can forward them.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>  what's Northrop paying ($$$) these days
>>>if an employee finds new employees?
>>>
>>>It's bit misleading to say there are 
>>>"DSP jobs there.  You should really say 
>>>that these are "System Engineering" jobs 
>>>at an aerospace company with the US 
>>>Govt as their primary customer. 
>>
>>Are you implying that these jobs would be overseeing and coordinating
>>DSP work being done, as opposed to actually doing it?
>>
>>Just curious, since I have no intention of moving to Mexifornia.  :-)
>>
>>Robert
>
>Hi,
>   well, being an aerospace company, so darn 
>much of an engineer's time is spent writing 
>documents (as opposed to designing and testing 
>DSP systems) required by the Govt customer.
>I'd guess about 80% of your time is reading 
>and writing documents.

Document engineering.  Blah.  That's not unknown in some non-defense
areas as well.  

>
>However, a job's a job, and there must be 
>plenty of guys looking for a job.  
>(Security clearance are required. so guys how've 
>spent their entire adult lives smoking dope 
>need not apply.)

Hahahaha.  Don't know many that have their *entire* adult life, but a
few that did inhale at some point in their life.  Could eliminate
large, and potentially talented, portions of the engineering pool if
that was a criteria.

>
>Mexifornia huh?   What a vicious racist remark!

How dare he mock'eth our immigration policies! ( or lack there of )

>I'll have you know Robert, there are hundreds of 
>people in Sacramento who speak English.   :-)

Haha.  That many still?  Well, give it another amnesty or two.  Heard
Bush and company is cooking one up right now.  With Ms. Feinstein's
complete support, I'm sure. :-)  As California goes .... 

Robert

( modify address for return email )

www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

Hi Rick,

I would not make any assumptions about 80% of the time being spent on
paperwork and writing documents. There are actual jobs at large
defense contractors (Raytheon, NG, Lockheed-Martin, BAE Systems...)
that are primarily doing DSP development (design and test).  You
really need to evaluate the positions on a case by case basis. You
might see something you like where you least expected it.

Dirk


<clip>

>    well, being an aerospace company, so darn 
> much of an engineer's time is spent writing 
> documents (as opposed to designing and testing 
> DSP systems) required by the Govt customer.
> I'd guess about 80% of your time is reading 
> and writing documents.
> 
<clip>

> [-Rick-]

On 29 Dec 2003 20:26:55 -0800, dirkman@erols.com (Dirk Bell) wrote:

>Hi Rick,
>
>I would not make any assumptions about 80% of the time being spent on
>paperwork and writing documents. There are actual jobs at large
>defense contractors (Raytheon, NG, Lockheed-Martin, BAE Systems...)
>that are primarily doing DSP development (design and test).  You
>really need to evaluate the positions on a case by case basis. You
>might see something you like where you least expected it.
>
>Dirk

Hi Dirk,
  I can't argue with you on this.  You're
probably right Dirk.  The reason I wrote what 
I did was because I worked at the company 
that is now Northrop in Sacramento for about 
10 years.

Hey wait a minute, why didn't Johm Pham get 
back into this that thread he started??

See Ya',
[-Rick-]
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 03:15:43 GMT, r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com
wrote:

  (snipped)
>
>>
>>Mexifornia huh?   What a vicious racist remark!
>
>How dare he mock'eth our immigration policies! ( or lack there of )
>
>>I'll have you know Robert, there are hundreds of 
>>people in Sacramento who speak English.   :-)
>
>Haha.  That many still?  Well, give it another amnesty or two.  Heard
>Bush and company is cooking one up right now.  With Ms. Feinstein's
>complete support, I'm sure. :-)  As California goes .... 
>

Sweet merciful Jesus in Heaven, don't get me started on 
that traitorous bitch Feinstein.  A year or two ago a 
North Korean military pilot was harrassing one of our 
reconnaisance airplanes.  He screwed up somehow, during his 
harrassment, and damaged his plane.  He ended up 
crashing to his death.  A day later Senator Diane Feinstein 
was on California television and *actually* apologized
to the family of the Commie North Korean pilot for 
his death.  I AM NOT JOKING!!!!

The traitorous Feinstein slut cared more about a North 
Korean military pilot than the Americans on our military 
aircraft.  Why that bitch wasn't impeached right 
then and there I'll never understand.

Well, actually ... I do understand.  Men in California are 
more interested in where they can borrow the money to buy a 
big-screen TV so they can watch illiterate millionaires 
bounce a rubber ball than they are in protecting the 
security of our country.

Now the liberal folk on this newsgroup might say, "Our 
military plane should *NOT* have been near North Korea.
To that I say, "Listen knucklhead.  Our military, which 
you despise, is responsible for you having:

  * newspapers to read
  * books to read
  * different political candidates 
  * the ability to criticize the dipshits running our Government
  * the ability to speak as you wish
  * the ability use the telephone without fear
  * etc.

Now, ... Diane Feinstein's husband has made a zillion dollars 
dealing with the Communist Red Chinese, and that's OK with me.  
But for dear Christ's sake that piece of political excrement 
Feinstein should at least be more loyal to America than she 
is to the Red Commies in North Korea.
What an f---ing traitor!!!

If we'd had Senators like that filthy traitorous whore 
Feinstein during World War II, Robert, your skin and mine 
would now be on someone's lampshade.
(For the younger folk here who's school room history lessons 
focused on Latin homosexual poets, I'll let you find out on 
your own where my "World War II lampshade" remark originated.)

Ah, life is interesting, is it not?

[-Rick-]

Rick Lyons wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:26:52 GMT, r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 22 Dec 2003 09:56:13 -0800, jpsc@hotmail.com (John Pham) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>We have quite a few DSP job opening at Northrop Sacramento, CA.
>>>>If anyone interest you can visit  www.ms.northropgrumman.com or
>>>>send me your resume and I can forward them.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>> what's Northrop paying ($$$) these days
>>>if an employee finds new employees?
>>>
>>>It's bit misleading to say there are 
>>>"DSP jobs there.  You should really say 
>>>that these are "System Engineering" jobs 
>>>at an aerospace company with the US 
>>>Govt as their primary customer. 
>>
>>Are you implying that these jobs would be overseeing and coordinating
>>DSP work being done, as opposed to actually doing it?
>>
>>Just curious, since I have no intention of moving to Mexifornia.  :-)
>>
>>Robert
> 
> 
> Hi,
>    well, being an aerospace company, so darn 
> much of an engineer's time is spent writing 
> documents (as opposed to designing and testing 
> DSP systems) required by the Govt customer.
> I'd guess about 80% of your time is reading 
> and writing documents.
> 
> However, a job's a job, and there must be 
> plenty of guys looking for a job.  
> (Security clearance are required. so guys how've 
> spent their entire adult lives smoking dope 
> need not apply.)

Maybe they should go into conservative talk radio.

> 
> Mexifornia huh?   What a vicious racist remark!
> I'll have you know Robert, there are hundreds of 
> people in Sacramento who speak English.   :-)
> 
> [-Rick-]
> 
> 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:19:02 -0500, Stan Pawlukiewicz
<stanp@nospam_mitre.org> wrote:

  (snipped)
>> 
>> However, a job's a job, and there must be 
>> plenty of guys looking for a job.  
>> (Security clearance are required. so guys how've 
>> spent their entire adult lives smoking dope 
>> need not apply.)
>
>Maybe they should go into conservative talk radio.
>

Ha.  That was good.
But nope, ... addicted to prescription pain
killers qualifies you for conservative talk radio.
Actually, if we knew the *true* private behavior 
of our radio and TV celebrities (liberal or 
conservative) we'd probably fall over.
here's a not-so-well-known example:

Jeff Smith, the famous "Frugal Gourmet" at

http://www.tvacres.com/cooks_frugalgourmet.htm

I liked that guy's cooking show so much 
that I bought his book --- only to later 
find out he was playing "hide the sausage" 
with under-age boys.  Sheece!

 [-Rick-]

r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 03:15:43 GMT, r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com
>wrote:
>
>  (snipped)
>>
>>>
>>>Mexifornia huh?   What a vicious racist remark!
>>
>>How dare he mock'eth our immigration policies! ( or lack there of )
>>
>>>I'll have you know Robert, there are hundreds of 
>>>people in Sacramento who speak English.   :-)
>>
>>Haha.  That many still?  Well, give it another amnesty or two.  Heard
>>Bush and company is cooking one up right now.  With Ms. Feinstein's
>>complete support, I'm sure. :-)  As California goes .... 
>>
>
>Sweet merciful Jesus in Heaven, don't get me started on 
>that traitorous bitch Feinstein.  A year or two ago a 

Hehe.  Gonna have the ADL after you.  :-)

>North Korean military pilot was harrassing one of our 
>reconnaisance airplanes.  He screwed up somehow, during his 
>harrassment, and damaged his plane.  He ended up 
>crashing to his death.  A day later Senator Diane Feinstein 
>was on California television and *actually* apologized
>to the family of the Commie North Korean pilot for 
>his death.  I AM NOT JOKING!!!!

Repulsive.

>
>The traitorous Feinstein slut cared more about a North 
>Korean military pilot than the Americans on our military 
>aircraft.  Why that bitch wasn't impeached right 
>then and there I'll never understand.

Yes, why wasn't she.  And why, despite things like this, plus her
unceasing support for waves upon waves of illegals ( that have swamped
your state, and it's fiscal health, etc ), do the people of California
continue to elect someone like this?

>
>Well, actually ... I do understand.  Men in California are 
>more interested in where they can borrow the money to buy a 
>big-screen TV so they can watch illiterate millionaires 
>bounce a rubber ball than they are in protecting the 
>security of our country.

BINGO.

>
>Now the liberal folk on this newsgroup might say, "Our 
>military plane should *NOT* have been near North Korea.

The head in the sand approach.

>To that I say, "Listen knucklhead.  Our military, which 
>you despise, is responsible for you having:
>
>  * newspapers to read
>  * books to read
>  * different political candidates 
>  * the ability to criticize the dipshits running our Government
>  * the ability to speak as you wish
>  * the ability use the telephone without fear
>  * etc.
>
>Now, ... Diane Feinstein's husband has made a zillion dollars 
>dealing with the Communist Red Chinese, and that's OK with me.  

Not me.  

Here's a bit of news across the wire lately, thanks to enablers like
Mr Feinstein, and of course Mr. Clinton:

----- U.S. intelligence officials are quietly confirming that China
has deployed its newest long-range missile. The Chinese army now has
up to 12 Dong Feng 31 (East Wind) missiles, which can deliver nuclear
warheads against America.

"China now has approximately 36 intercontinental missiles that can hit
the United States - 24 older CSS-4 missiles and up to 12 new Dong Feng
31 missiles," said Col. Larry Wortzel, vice president of the Heritage
Foundation. ----

>But for dear Christ's sake that piece of political excrement 
>Feinstein should at least be more loyal to America than she 
>is to the Red Commies in North Korea.
>What an f---ing traitor!!!

Agreed.  We have a couple of equally traitorous works of art here in
Wisconsin called Kohl and Feingold.  

>
>If we'd had Senators like that filthy traitorous whore 
>Feinstein during World War II, Robert, your skin and mine 
>would now be on someone's lampshade.
>(For the younger folk here who's school room history lessons 
>focused on Latin homosexual poets, I'll let you find out on 
>your own where my "World War II lampshade" remark originated.)
>
>Ah, life is interesting, is it not?

Sometimes,

Regards,

Robert


( modify address for return email )

www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com wrote:
> 
> >
> >Well, actually ... I do understand.  Men in California are
> >more interested in where they can borrow the money to buy a
> >big-screen TV so they can watch illiterate millionaires
> >bounce a rubber ball than they are in protecting the
> >security of our country.
> 
> BINGO.
> 

OTOH, I've found that men in CA are less likely than men in
other places I've lived to put people in little boxes like
the above.


Bob
-- 

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

> ----- U.S. intelligence officials are quietly confirming that China
> has deployed its newest long-range missile. The Chinese army now has
> up to 12 Dong Feng 31 (East Wind) missiles, which can deliver nuclear
> warheads against America.
> 
> "China now has approximately 36 intercontinental missiles that can hit
> the United States - 24 older CSS-4 missiles and up to 12 new Dong Feng
> 31 missiles," said Col. Larry Wortzel, vice president of the Heritage
> Foundation. ----

Impressive! Has US been able to make such long range missiles by now or not?

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:45:14 -0800, Bob Cain
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>
>
>r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >Well, actually ... I do understand.  Men in California are
>> >more interested in where they can borrow the money to buy a
>> >big-screen TV so they can watch illiterate millionaires
>> >bounce a rubber ball than they are in protecting the
>> >security of our country.
>> 
>> BINGO.
>> 
>
>OTOH, I've found that men in CA are less likely than men in
>other places I've lived to put people in little boxes like
>the above.
>
>
>Bob

Hi Bob,
   Well, what I'm saying is that 20,000 guys' will 
show up for a football game, but they won't show up 
on the State Capital steps to voice any opposition 
to giving illegal immigrants driver's licences.

With a driver's license you can rent a car, 
get plane tickets, buy guns, and *VOTE*.

Do we want citizens of a another country voting 
in our elections?   Think about that for just 
a few seconds---just for a few seconds.
Do we want foreigners voting in our elections.
Is that a good idea????

The average white goofball cares *much* more 
about who's on second base than what's happening 
in their State Capital's back rooms.
That's all I'm sayin'.

[-Rick-]

Rick Lyons wrote:
> 
>    Well, what I'm saying is that 20,000 guys' will
> show up for a football game, but they won't show up
> on the State Capital steps to voice any opposition
> to giving illegal immigrants driver's licences.
>

Could be that if you are living in the middle of the
situation you can see it more in human than political
terms.  Given that the situation exists, is it a good thing
to hamstring families or is it better to be more pragmatic
about it?  Not saying that I'm a proponent but seeing the
consequences close up makes me at least ambivalent.  I see
people trying to better their lives and for the most part
working their asses off in conditions and at levels that
capitalize on their status.  It's not just about the
political ramification.


Bob
-- 

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

Rick Lyons wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:45:14 -0800, Bob Cain
> <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Well, actually ... I do understand.  Men in California are
> >> >more interested in where they can borrow the money to buy a
> >> >big-screen TV so they can watch illiterate millionaires
> >> >bounce a rubber ball than they are in protecting the
> >> >security of our country.
> >>
> >> BINGO.
> >>
> >
> >OTOH, I've found that men in CA are less likely than men in
> >other places I've lived to put people in little boxes like
> >the above.
> >
> >
> >Bob
> 
> Hi Bob,
>    Well, what I'm saying is that 20,000 guys' will
> show up for a football game, but they won't show up
> on the State Capital steps to voice any opposition
> to giving illegal immigrants driver's licences.
> 
> With a driver's license you can rent a car,
> get plane tickets, buy guns, and *VOTE*.
> 
> Do we want citizens of a another country voting
> in our elections?   Think about that for just
> a few seconds---just for a few seconds.
> Do we want foreigners voting in our elections.
> Is that a good idea????

	OK, let's think about it. In order to get a drivers license requires a certain
level of investment in the culture. You need to be literate. You need to have a
certain level of English fluency. You need to know the rules of the road and
demonstrate the abilty apply them in practice. Compared to that, being white and
capable of buying a football ticket seems like a piss poor criteria for having
the right to anything.
	Many immigrants have entered this country not because they prefer it over their
own, but because they are trying to escape what American foriegn policy has done
to their country. And your white goof balls aren't interested in doing anything
about that either. The average immigrant that enters illegally is illiterate and
would prefer to make a living farming, but massive dumping of surplus grains by
USA has made it impossible to pursue that traditional means of survival. The
people running this country are not too terribly concerned about these
immigrants getting drivers licenses since that in most cases is an unlikely
outcome. What is more likely is that such immigrants will provide a cheap source
of dometic help and other jobs that citizens don't want. 

-jim


> 
> The average white goofball cares *much* more
> about who's on second base than what's happening
> in their State Capital's back rooms.
> That's all I'm sayin'.
> 
> [-Rick-]


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:56:35 -0800, Bob Cain
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>
>
>Rick Lyons wrote:
>> 
>>    Well, what I'm saying is that 20,000 guys' will
>> show up for a football game, but they won't show up
>> on the State Capital steps to voice any opposition
>> to giving illegal immigrants driver's licences.


Bob, why didn't you respond to my question:

  "Do we want citizens of a another country voting 
   in our elections?"

You should look into heart and see why you 
didn't.   That was a "yes" or "no"
question.  Why didn't you say yes or no?


>Could be that if you are living in the middle of the
>situation you can see it more in human than political
>terms.  

That sentence contained no discernable 
information.

>Given that the situation exists, is it a good thing
>to hamstring families or is it better to be more pragmatic
>about it?  

What "situation"?   What does "hamstring families"
mean???  What families?

>Not saying that I'm a proponent 

"proponent of what?

>but seeing the
>consequences close up 

What consequences?  What have you seen?

>makes me at least ambivalent.  I see
>people trying to better their lives and for the most part
>working their asses off in conditions and at levels that
>capitalize on their status.  

I have no idea what 

   "in conditions and at levels that
     capitalize on their status"

means.  What are you trying to say.

>It's not just about the
>political ramification.

Gosh Bob.  What the heck did that sentence mean?

Being unable to tell what you're trying to 
say here, I get the impression that our 
alarming illegal immigration problem 
doesn't bother you.  

If you're gonna write on this subject, 
you really should be straightforward and 
clearly say how you feel.  There's no shame 
in having an opinion and expressing that 
opinion in a direct, clear, understandable way.

[-Rick-]

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:15:27 -0600, jim <"N0sp"@m.sjedging@mwt.net>
wrote:

  (snipped)

>> 
>> Do we want citizens of a another country voting
>> in our elections?   Think about that for just
>> a few seconds---just for a few seconds.
>> Do we want foreigners voting in our elections.
>> Is that a good idea????

Hi,

>	OK, let's think about it. 

That was neat.  It implies that we haven't hought 
about any of this until your post arrived here.

>In order to get a drivers license requires a certain
>level of investment in the culture. 

What ever made you think that was true?
All it takes is someone to drive you over to the 
Dept. of Motor Vehicles (DMV).

>You need to be literate. You need to have a
>certain level of English fluency. 

Absolutely not true!!
All DMV paperwork is available in Spanish!!!

3/4 of the DMV employees (at least in the 
San Fran. Bay area) speak Spanish.

>You need to know the rules of the road and
>demonstrate the abilty apply them in practice. 

No.  All you need to do is pass the test.
Ask residents of the Bay area how skilled 
the average driver is.  They're not 
good drivers (on average) at all.

>Compared to that, being white and
>capable of buying a football ticket seems like a piss poor criteria for having
>the right to anything.


>	Many immigrants have entered this country not because they prefer it over their
>own, but because they are trying to escape what American foriegn policy has done
>to their country. 

I wonder what makes a guy (that would be you), with the 
ability think and reason, decide that America's to blame 
for the shortcomings of other countries and cultures.
 

>And your white goof balls aren't interested in doing anything
>about that either. The average immigrant that enters illegally is illiterate 

Before, you said illegal immigrants were literate!
Which is it, literate or illiterate?

>and
>would prefer to make a living farming, but massive dumping of surplus grains by
>USA has made it impossible to pursue that traditional means of survival. 

Good Lord, where did you hear that???
Massive dumping of grain!!  Ha ha ha ha.

The illegal immigrants want to live in America 
because their own countries are intolerable. 
In America they have a chance to live a decent 
life.  The America that you dislike Jim, is 
where they want to live.
I'll bet you never lived in Mexico, did ya'?

>The
>people running this country are not too terribly concerned about these
>immigrants getting drivers licenses since that in most cases is an unlikely
>outcome. 

You haven't been watching the news.
California's Democratic legislators, last fall, passed 
a law that would allow illegal immigrants to get 
Driver's Licenses.  (They did that because that license
would enable the illegals to vote.  And the illegals 
would overwhelmingly vote democratic which would keep 
the Democrats in power here.) Thankfully, our new Governator 
Arnold was able to temporarily stop the illegals from 
getting licenses.

  
>What is more likely is that such immigrants will provide a cheap source
>of dometic help and other jobs that citizens don't want. 

Ah Jim, they're already doing that.

No country can survive without some sort of control 
of its borders.

I sincerely hope that illegal immigrants do to 
your, and Bob Cain's, neighborhood what they did to 
mine.  I'm guessin' that the trashing of where you 
live might make you re-think your notion of 
how terrible American culture is.
(By "trashing" I mean the change of a normal 
middle-class neighborhood into a dumpy, littered, 
unkept, overgrown, junk cars parked in the 
front yard, 3rd-world mess.)

[-Rick-]

Rick Lyons wrote:

> 
> I wonder what makes a guy (that would be you), with the
> ability think and reason, decide that America's to blame
> for the shortcomings of other countries and cultures.
> 
US government agricultural policies have destroyed the lives of many an american
farmer also. The reason for this is that US political machine knows that the one
thing that will make the average white american male moron take a close critical
look at the doings of its government is for him to walk into his local grocery
and find that there's no breakfast cereal or bread or milk etc. on the shelf.


> 
> >And your white goof balls aren't interested in doing anything
> >about that either. The average immigrant that enters illegally is illiterate
> 
> Before, you said illegal immigrants were literate!
> Which is it, literate or illiterate?
>

peasant farmers are typically illiterate. The literate illegal immigrants
generally arrive with legal visas and overstay them. Guarding the borders isn't
going to change that.
 
> >and
> >would prefer to make a living farming, but massive dumping of surplus grains by
> >USA has made it impossible to pursue that traditional means of survival.
> 
> Good Lord, where did you hear that???
> Massive dumping of grain!!  Ha ha ha ha.

Yeah, I'm sure your governments Ag policies are of no interest to you - at least
as long as there's food on the shelf at the grocery store.

> 
> The illegal immigrants want to live in America
> because their own countries are intolerable.
> In America they have a chance to live a decent
> life.  The America that you dislike Jim, is
> where they want to live.

I'm not the one pronouncing my dislike for anything. You seem to be very
displeased by your environment. You seem to be blaming the whole world for the
shortcomings of your cultural surroundings. If you don't like this world why
don't you get off.

-jim


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Rick Lyons wrote:
> 
> Bob, why didn't you respond to my question:
> 
>   "Do we want citizens of a another country voting
>    in our elections?"
> 
> You should look into heart and see why you
> didn't.   That was a "yes" or "no"
> question.  Why didn't you say yes or no?
> 

Because it wasn't my intent to do so, just to raise some of
the considerations that make it difficult to answer as
simply as that.  That my feelings on this may seem less than
conclusive merely indicates their ambivalent nature.  I see
both sides.

> >Could be that if you are living in the middle of the
> >situation you can see it more in human than political
> >terms.
> 
> That sentence contained no discernable
> information.

To you, perhaps.

> 
> >Given that the situation exists, is it a good thing
> >to hamstring families or is it better to be more pragmatic
> >about it?
> 
> What "situation"?   What does "hamstring families"
> mean???  What families?

The situation is that we have a very large number of
"illegal" aliens already here and that they have families,
including children, to support most of whom were born here. 
Making it difficult or impossible to drive hamstrings their
ability to provide for those families.  Was that really so
difficult to understand from my shorter version?

> 
> >Not saying that I'm a proponent
> 
> "proponent of what?

Of allowing driver's licenses for "illegal" aliens.  Rick,
are you being intentionally obtuse?

> 
> >but seeing the
> >consequences close up
> 
> What consequences?  What have you seen?

I live in Santa Cruz, CA, where there are many "illegal"
aliens locally and in areas surrounding it.  I've seen the
poverty and the level of subsistance that families are
forced into because of people taking advantage of them and
I've seen how hard they are willing to work to try to remain
afloat above it.

> 
> >makes me at least ambivalent.  I see
> >people trying to better their lives and for the most part
> >working their asses off in conditions and at levels that
> >capitalize on their status.
> 
> I have no idea what
> 
>    "in conditions and at levels that
>      capitalize on their status"
> 
> means.  What are you trying to say.

Aw, c'mon.  You're being silly or you are ignorant.  They
are paid less than minimum wage, less than subsistance wage,
can only obtain the most menial of work and are taken
advantage of because they can't complain.

> 
> >It's not just about the
> >political ramification.
> 
> Gosh Bob.  What the heck did that sentence mean?

Is it clear enough for you yet?

> 
> Being unable to tell what you're trying to
> say here, I get the impression that our
> alarming illegal immigration problem
> doesn't bother you.

Not as much, apparently, as it does you.  My ancestors were
the starving Irish.

> 
> If you're gonna write on this subject,
> you really should be straightforward and
> clearly say how you feel.  There's no shame
> in having an opinion and expressing that
> opinion in a direct, clear, understandable way.

And I did just that despite what you were able to discern of
it.


Bob
-- 

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

Rick Lyons wrote:
 > [...]
> Do we want citizens of a another country voting 
> in our elections?

No.

We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
We need to make it a law that anyone who works in the U.S. must
be able to speak English to some minimal level. We need to stop
pandering to the lazy leaches that come into this country and
expect us to educate them in their language.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Rick Lyons wrote:
> [...]
>>You need to be literate. You need to have a
>>certain level of English fluency. 
> 
> 
> Absolutely not true!!
> All DMV paperwork is available in Spanish!!!
> 
> 3/4 of the DMV employees (at least in the 
> San Fran. Bay area) speak Spanish.

Bingo! This bullshit needs to stop. This is
the U.S.A.: we speak ENGLISH here.

My grandfather immigrated from Cypress (he was
a Greek Cypriot) in the 20's. Did they give him
forms in Greek or provide him with translators at
the DMV? No. He learned English, and it wasn't easy.
(He learned it by watching the movies.)

Now, perhaps if the U.S. government took the hard line
they need to on this, the companies (McDonalds?) that are
so vested in hiring workers like these would sponsor some
English classes. Wow, what a concept...
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

jim <"N0sp"@m.sjedging@mwt.net> wrote:

>outcome. What is more likely is that such immigrants will provide a cheap source
>of dometic help and other jobs that citizens don't want. 

"take jobs that citizens don't want"

Ah yes, definetly a top 3 cliche of the "open borders" contingent ...
to justity their continuing traitorous support for those who enter our
country illegally.  You don't understand markey economies?  Why don't
citizens want these jobs?  Well, lemme see ... maybe because 20
million illegal aliens have so depressed wages, that they don't pay
enough.  Simple enough, you stop the tidal wave of illegals, market
forces result in the pay for these positions rising, and citizens will
want them.

Robert

( modify address for return email )

www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>
>
>Rick Lyons wrote:
>> 
>>    Well, what I'm saying is that 20,000 guys' will
>> show up for a football game, but they won't show up
>> on the State Capital steps to voice any opposition
>> to giving illegal immigrants driver's licences.
>>
>
>Could be that if you are living in the middle of the
>situation you can see it more in human than political
>terms.  Given that the situation exists, is it a good thing
>to hamstring families or is it better to be more pragmatic
>about it?  Not saying that I'm a proponent but seeing the
>consequences close up makes me at least ambivalent.  I see
>people trying to better their lives and for the most part
>working their asses off in conditions and at levels that
>capitalize on their status.  It's not just about the
>political ramification.

Entering a soverign nation, without permission is illegal, regardless
if they are going to work hard or not.  And if the only critieria is
going to be whether they work hard or not, I'm sure there are 5
billion other people on this planet that fit that criteria.  When does
it stop?  I heard that 2 in 5 Mexicans now reside in the US.  When it
is 3 in 5?  4, 5?  Don't forget now, that many other countries are
seeing how easy it is to make it hear, and be cuddled by our
traitorous politicians, so now we have the masses from Central and
Southern America coming as well.  There have been reports of many from
other countries using our southern border to enter the country as
well, seeing how weak our politicians are at handling security there,
i.e. chineese, koreans, hatians ... and yes, those of middle eastern
descent.

This nation now has more foreign born people than at any other time in
our history.  We are projected to have a population of 400 million
within a generation, at the present levels of immigration.  2.8
million people were added to the country in 2003 alone.  Over 40
million since the 1980's.  C'mon.  There has to be a limit somewhere.
Enough is enough.

( modify address for return email )

www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote:

>I sincerely hope that illegal immigrants do to 
>your, and Bob Cain's, neighborhood what they did to 
>mine.  I'm guessin' that the trashing of where you 
>live might make you re-think your notion of 
>how terrible American culture is.
>(By "trashing" I mean the change of a normal 
>middle-class neighborhood into a dumpy, littered, 
>unkept, overgrown, junk cars parked in the 
>front yard, 3rd-world mess.)

Rest assured that the "open borders" contingent, elites and all others
traitors advocating the continuing invasion of our country don't live
anywhere near the scenes you describe.  

Robert

( modify address for return email )

www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote:

>Rick Lyons wrote:
> > [...]
>> Do we want citizens of a another country voting 
>> in our elections?
>
>No.
>
>We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>We need to make it a law that anyone who works in the U.S. must
>be able to speak English to some minimal level. We need to stop
>pandering to the lazy leaches that come into this country and
>expect us to educate them in their language.

Our politicians are very busy tripping over each other, to pander to
the hispanic vote.  They'll do nothing but continue to undercut our
laws and cultural cohesiveness in an attempt to get it.  Take a look
at the immigration platforms of the presidential candidates.  Not a
single one will advocate anything approaching responsible policies
torwards our borders and immigration.  And they'll continue to get
away with doing so, until the people of this country that should be
concerned wake up.  But as Rick originally implied, at the beginning
of this discussion, those that should be concerned, and taking a stand
in support of their country, are too busy with their big screen TV's,
the latest trash that's being pimped by Hollywood, or driving their
Harleys.  And they've been placated by years of the same liberal
messages about what arseholes they are if they do care, and take a
stand ... and as a result, have become willing participants in the
demise.

Robert

( modify address for return email )

www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>
>
>r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >Well, actually ... I do understand.  Men in California are
>> >more interested in where they can borrow the money to buy a
>> >big-screen TV so they can watch illiterate millionaires
>> >bounce a rubber ball than they are in protecting the
>> >security of our country.
>> 
>> BINGO.
>> 
>
>OTOH, I've found that men in CA are less likely than men in
>other places I've lived to put people in little boxes like
>the above.
>

Maybe a little too wishy washy, unable to take a stand ... willing
participants in being beaten into moral ineptitude?  Yes, we see where
that's gotten the state.

I'm all for open mindedness, etc.  But at some point, you have to be
willing to take a stand, or be rolled over.  Unfortunately, no one out
there appears to be capable of doing so, although the Governator
appears to have more of a backbone than most.

Robert

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www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

In article <10jbvvke9gbtvo3pbnjlpgchnu5jgktcbr@4ax.com>,
 r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com wrote:

> r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote:
> 
> >I sincerely hope that illegal immigrants do to 
> >your, and Bob Cain's, neighborhood what they did to 
> >mine.  I'm guessin' that the trashing of where you 
> >live might make you re-think your notion of 
> >how terrible American culture is.
> >(By "trashing" I mean the change of a normal 
> >middle-class neighborhood into a dumpy, littered, 
> >unkept, overgrown, junk cars parked in the 
> >front yard, 3rd-world mess.)
> 
> Rest assured that the "open borders" contingent, elites and all others
> traitors advocating the continuing invasion of our country don't live
> anywhere near the scenes you describe.  
> 
> Robert

Robert,

Which tribe are you from?

Ken


(who actually lives in Sacramento, CA)

-- 
Remove _me_ for e-mail address

Hello,

Rick: I'm impressed by your comments. I admit that you have the
reason, in the sense that illegal inmigration is a problem, for both
the citizens (USA citizens, in this case) and the inmigrants as well.
Do you think an illegal inmigrant lives fine???? NOT AT ALL. And let
me tell you why: becasue you, USA citizens exploit them as much as you
can!!!!! Do you think that's fair?

BTW, I'm also impressed by how important do you (USA citizens) think
you are, when you actually are not. How can you call yourselves
"americans"?. Look at a map: America is a whole, big continent, much
richer than the USA is. "American" means "somebody originary from
America", like "european" means "somebody originary from Europe", or
"asian" means "somebody originary from Asia", etc...
It looks like you are so short-brained that you think that America is
just the USA.

> 
> Absolutely not true!!
> All DMV paperwork is available in Spanish!!!
> 
> 3/4 of the DMV employees (at least in the 
> San Fran. Bay area) speak Spanish.

It just shows up how important is the spanish-speaking community in
that area, like it to you or not. Again, it makes you, USA citizens,
look short brained: you are very much scared about learning another
language!!! You think there are no other languages in the world!!! BTW
it is not your "own" language, it is called english, whicvh menas
"from England"!!!! Of course, it can't be called "american".

> 
> The illegal immigrants want to live in America 
> because their own countries are intolerable. 
> In America they have a chance to live a decent 
> life.  

What in the HELL makes you think that????

> The America that you dislike Jim, is 
> where they want to live.
> I'll bet you never lived in Mexico, did ya'?

There is a HUGE lie, which is called the "american dream". Nobody
refuses to admit that living conditions in other countries in America
are less favorable than the ones for the average USA citizen (don't
call them "americans") or canadian person. But when they go there,
they rather live the "american hell".

And for your information, I live in Colombia, and despite our
problems, I wouldn't move to the USA, becasue I find no reason to do
so. Doesn't the USA have problems? What makes people think it's a
better country to live in? C'mon: there even was a city mayor (I don't
recall if it was New York's mayor, or Washington's mayor, or from
another city) who was a drug-adict. C'mon, what a country! And what to
say about Clinton's affairs???? You, USA citizens, have a two-sided
ethics! Combating durgs production in latin america, but you are the
kings and queens of consumption!!! And CA's governor: a foreign-born
film artist, c'mon!!!! You are so funny!!! What makes you think you
are better at all????


> No country can survive without some sort of control 
> of its borders.

Absolutely agree with that. But not to take the discriminating
position you took, Rick.

JaaC

Hello Randy, Rick, and everybody.

> > 3/4 of the DMV employees (at least in the 
> > San Fran. Bay area) speak Spanish.
> 
> Bingo! This bullshit needs to stop. This is
> the U.S.A.: we speak ENGLISH here.

Can't believe it: looking short-brained, close-minded at all!

> 
> My grandfather immigrated from Cypress (he was
> a Greek Cypriot) in the 20's. Did they give him
> forms in Greek or provide him with translators at
> the DMV? No. He learned English, and it wasn't easy.
> (He learned it by watching the movies.)

With too much respect, poor of him. You can't ignore that nowadays,
the spanish-speaking community in the USA is quite important. At least
in number of persons.

> 
> Now, perhaps if the U.S. government took the hard line
> they need to on this, the companies (McDonalds?) that are
> so vested in hiring workers like these would sponsor some
> English classes. Wow, what a concept...

And that makes you feel great???

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<vUeJb.4926$6B.392@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Rick Lyons wrote:
>  > [...]
> > Do we want citizens of a another country voting 
> > in our elections?
> 
> No.
> 
> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
> We need to make it a law that anyone who works in the U.S. must
> be able to speak English to some minimal level. We need to stop
> pandering to the lazy leaches that come into this country and
> expect us to educate them in their language.

That's good. Of course, wherever you go, you shold learn what that
country has to offer, with the "taste" it has. But it doesn't mean
that your culture and your language is niether the best, nor the only
one that exists.

"Citizen" means somebedy who has adopted the culture of a country, in
case he/she wasn't born in that country. It means becoming integral
part of that country.

X-No-Archive: Yes

r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.hotmail.com wrote:

>Haha.  That many still?  Well, give it another amnesty or two.  Heard
>Bush and company is cooking one up right now. 

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2004/01-12-2004/amnesty.htm

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www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

On 2 Jan 2004 13:00:00 -0800, jaime.aranguren@ieee.org (Jaime Andres
Aranguren Cardona) wrote:

>Hello,

Hi,

>Rick: I'm impressed by your comments. I admit that you have the
>reason, in the sense that illegal immigration is a problem, for both
>the citizens (USA citizens, in this case) and the immigrants as well.
>Do you think an illegal immigrant lives fine???? NOT AT ALL. 

No they don't live fine compared to the average 
American citizen.  No way.
But I'm guessing they live *much* better 
than the average Mexican citizen!
That's why they're here!

>And let
>me tell you why: because you, USA citizens exploit them as much as you
>can!!!!! 

I do *not* exploit anyone.
Not ever.

>Do you think that's fair?

Well, "fair" is a tough word to
define. As Robert said, illegals 
will work for low wages, and that's 
exactly what keeps the wages low.
However, those wages must be better than 
they can earn in Mexico, or else they 
would be still be in their own country.

>BTW, I'm also impressed by how important do you (USA citizens) think
>you are, when you actually are not. 

Well, I didn't say American citizens were 
important, in fact I criticized American 
citizens for not caring about their country 
or culture.  I *do* believe America is an 
important country.  (We literally saved, with 
the Brits, the human race in the last century.
Can ya' imagine what life would be like 
around the world if we'd lost World War II.)

>How can you call yourselves
>"americans"?. Look at a map: America is a whole, big continent, much
>richer than the USA is. "American" means "somebody originary from
>America", like "european" means "somebody originary from Europe", or
>"asian" means "somebody originary from Asia", etc...

Ah Jaime, it looks like we have a semantic 
problem here.   Maybe I should say the 
"United States" (U.S.) instead of "America".
When I say "American" I mean a citizen of the 
U.S., someone with a U.S. passport.
A "European" to me means a person with 
a passport from a European country, not 
someone born in Europe.  My ex wife was born 
in Europe but she's a U.S. citizen.  (By the 
way, she (like our Governator Arnold) loves 
the U.S. more than me.  That's because she 
knows what it's like to grow up in another 
country.

>It looks like you are so short-brained that you think that America is
>just the USA.

OK OK, I'll be more careful next time 
with my terms.

>> Absolutely not true!!
>> All DMV paperwork is available in Spanish!!!
>> 
>> 3/4 of the DMV employees (at least in the 
>> San Fran. Bay area) speak Spanish.
>
>It just shows up how important is the spanish-speaking community in
>that area, like it to you or not. 

Jaime, I believe the reason that 3/4 of the DMV 
employees in the San Fran. Bay area speak Spanish 
is because of a concerted effort by the CA State 
government (and Federal govt representatives here) 
to only hire non-white employees.  The Sunnyvale 
(heart of Silicon Valley) main Post Office has 
not one European (white) employee.  The Mt. View 
DMV has two whites and 25 non-whites.
How can that be?  Nope, it's not random chance that 
Govt employees as mostly non-white.
You guys out there, ... check your Post Offices, DMVs, 
Court Houses, Airports.

I'm not being racist, I'm just saying what I 
see in real life. 

>Again, it makes you, USA citizens,
>look short brained: you are very much scared about learning another
>language!!! 

No other country in the world (except maybe 
England, I haven't been there in years) 
accommodates foreign languages like we do.
None!!!!!!! 

If you think I must learn a foreign language to 
to get by in the U.S., then we'll never be able 
to agree on anything.  Look what having two 
languages has done to Canada.  Ha!!! 

>You think there are no other languages in the world!!! 

Come on Jaime.  That's silly.  There should be 
one language in the U.S.  And that's English.
Having two languages in one country does not 
help to hold a country together, or to bring 
people together.

I lived in another country for five years.  I
did not feel insulted that they spoke, they
printed their signs, their telephone recordings, 
their newspapers in ****their**** language.
And in the name of sweet merciful Jesus in heaven, 
I NEVER thought I had a right to vote in their 
elections.  I WAS THE FOREIGNER!!!

>BTW
>it is not your "own" language, it is called English, whicvh menas
>"from England"!!!! Of course, it can't be called "american".

???

>> The illegal immigrants want to live in America 
>> because their own countries are intolerable. 
>> In America they have a chance to live a decent 
>> life.  
>
>What in the HELL makes you think that????

Well, I think that because these folks are willing 
to risk walking through the desert (dangerous) 
to get here.  They're willing to pay 
dangerous hoodlums money to ride in the back of 
a big truck in the hope of sneaking across our 
border.  Every 6-9 months we here of illegals 
dying in those damned trucks.
Why do you think illegals are coming to the U.S.?
They're looking for a better life than they have 
in Mexico!!!!!!!!

>> The America that you dislike Jim, is 
>> where they want to live.
>> I'll bet you never lived in Mexico, did ya'?
>
>There is a HUGE lie, which is called the "american dream". Nobody
>refuses to admit that living conditions in other countries in America
>are less favorable than the ones for the average USA citizen (don't
>call them "americans") or canadian person. But when they go there,
>they rather live the "american hell".

Gosh Jaime, I'm not sure how to interpret that last 
sentence.  Your blood pressure must have been high 
when you typed it.  This is good!!!  It means you 
care, ... and I like guys how care about something 
(other than baseball or football). 

Darn.  I sure wish I could understand what you 
were trying to say.  I lived in West Germany 
(nowadays there is only one Germany) for years.  
In many ways, Germany was 
superior to the U.S.  But if I considered all aspects 
of life, I'd rather live in the U.S. 

>And for your information, I live in Colombia, and despite our
>problems, I wouldn't move to the USA, becasue I find no reason to do
>so. Doesn't the USA have problems? 

Jaime, that made me laugh, literally, out loud.
The U.S. has so many problems that I am not 
able to list them all here.

>What makes people think it's a
>better country to live in? 

Well, if it wasn't better than most, why do 
SOOooo many people want to come into America?

>C'mon: there even was a city mayor (I don't
>recall if it was New York's mayor, or Washington's mayor, or from
>another city) who was a drug-adict. 

That was Washington DC's black mayor.  (I think his 
name was "Berry".)  He was 
dealing in drugs, arrested, and I think he spent some 
time in jail.  The interesting part is that he was later 
re-elected as Mayor by those brain-dead knuckleheads
living in Washington DC!!!  If he'd been white, 
he'd never have been re-elected.

>C'mon, what a country! And what to
>say about Clinton's affairs???? 

I believe Clinton should be behind 
bars eating bread and beans.
He gave new meaning to the word "liar".

>You, USA citizens, have a two-sided
>ethics! Combating durgs production in latin america, but you are the
>kings and queens of consumption!!! 

I agree.

>And CA's governor: a foreign-born
>film artist, c'mon!!!! You are so funny!!! 

Ah, now wait a minute here.
Our politicians are usually lying, self-centered, 
ignorant, bribe-taking, sexually-perverted, 
traitorous, stupid (and I mean *really* stupid) 
pieces of human excrement.  They will pass 
any law that adds to the balance of their 
personal bank account.
As far as I can tell, Arnold is none of these 
things.  Let's just wait and see what happens 
with Arnold.

A very large percentage of U.S. politicians are 
attorneys, which by definition makes them 
liars and thieves.   American politicians live 
by two rules.  Rule# 1:  Get re-elected.
Rule# 2: never forget Rule# 1.

>What makes you think you
>are better at all????

Ah, such a question.  I *never* said we're 
better than all.  

The U.S. developed into a nation where humane rights, 
and the value of the individual were made important.
In most countries, only the powerful are important.
America developed (by hard work) into a 
"land of plenty", and land were a person could have 
a decent life.  But our wealth has gone too far.
Jaime, I'm guessing that 80% of every U.S. citizen over 
eighteen years old has their own car.  I don't mean 
the family has their own car I mean *every person* 
has their own car.  I'll guess that %70 of U.S. 
families have two televisions, one VCR, one DVD player, 
multiple cell phones, almost every kitchen appliance 
ever made, a quite decent house in which to live, 
a nice bed in which to sleep, and ****all the food**** 
they can eat.  (U.S. agriculture is one of the miracles
of the humane race.)

U.S. citizens have it so good that they can go to a 
restaurant with their two kids, order two full meals for 
the kids, have the kids refuse to eat so that the 
kids' meals are then thrown away.   No problem, 
this is the "land of plenty".  :-(
I imagine that no other country even comes close to 
U.S. citizens when it comes to wasting food and 
natural resources.  Our ancestors worked so hard to give 
us so much, that we don't understand the value of what 
we have.  We waste *too* much.
 
I'm just a regular guy who sees 
his country and his culture go in a direction that 
will make life worse for his children and his 
grandchildren.  That's all.  I'm not worrying for me.
I have a decent place to live and I can afford all 
the beer I need.  I worry about my kids.

I just thought of this:  The U.S. is such a great 
country that if a U.S. citizen is stupid (can't balance 
their checkbook) and lazy (only performs the minimum, 
barely acceptable, work on the job), they have better 
food, more comfortable living accommodations, more 
material things, than Julius Caesar the ruler of 
the known Western World.
You're right Jaime, "What a country!"

>> No country can survive without some sort of control 
>> of its borders.
>
>Absolutely agree with that. But not to take the discriminating
>position you took, Rick.

I (I hope) don't discriminate against anyone.
I generally dislike everyone equally.

Jaime, let me tell you something about discrimination 
in the U.S. right now.   If I were to apply for a job 
(with Intel, Motorola, MicroSoft, Northrop, Lockheed Martin)
and another applicant is non-white (black, East Indian, 
Chinese, Hispanic, Vietnamese, etc.) with approximately 
equal qualifications to mine, I have essentially *no* 
chance of being hired.  I am the evil white guy who is 
to blame for all the problems on the planet Earth.

Darn, yours was a good post Jaime.  I wish we could 
discuss this over a cafe table while drinking beer.
Do you have beer breweries in Columbia?
You probably do.
Maybe you'll buy me a plane ticket to visit you 
there.  I'd like that.
If you travel to northern California, let me know 
ahead of time, OK?

Regards,
[-Rick-]

Jaime Andres Aranguren Cardona wrote:

> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<vUeJb.4926$6B.392@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> 
>>Rick Lyons wrote:
>> > [...]
>>
>>>Do we want citizens of a another country voting 
>>>in our elections?
>>
>>No.
>>
>>We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>>at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>>We need to make it a law that anyone who works in the U.S. must
>>be able to speak English to some minimal level. We need to stop
>>pandering to the lazy leaches that come into this country and
>>expect us to educate them in their language.
> 
> 
> That's good. Of course, wherever you go, you shold learn what that
> country has to offer, with the "taste" it has. But it doesn't mean
> that your culture and your language is niether the best, nor the only
> one that exists.
> 
> "Citizen" means somebedy who has adopted the culture of a country, in
> case he/she wasn't born in that country. It means becoming integral
> part of that country.

Jaime, I agree 100 percent. There is a lot of beauty and history in
other cultures (most more than American). It is not a matter of one
being "better" than the other. If I went to France I wouldn't expect the
French to give me DMV forms in English and provide English teachers for
my children in their schools.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Rick Lyons wrote:

 > [lots of good rhetoric deleted]

Hey Guys,

If Bush and folks are giving this amnesty for the apparent reason to
gain more votes, why can't the majority U.S. public take a unified stand
saying, "You do this and you lose our votes."?

I know, I'm dreaming...

--Randy


-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Randy Yates wrote:
> Rick Lyons wrote:
>  > [...]
> 
>> Do we want citizens of a another country voting in our elections?
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
> We need to make it a law that anyone who works in the U.S. must
> be able to speak English to some minimal level. We need to stop
> pandering to the lazy leaches that come into this country and
> expect us to educate them in their language.
Randy,

Let's get that "poll tax" back too.

Bill

Jacek Raczko wrote:
> On 22 Dec 2003 09:56:13 -0800, John Pham wrote:
> 
> 
>>We have quite a few DSP job opening at Northrop Sacramento, CA.
>>If anyone interest you can visit  www.ms.northropgrumman.com or
>>send me your resume and I can forward them.
>>
>>John
January 1st, 2004 ...... Let the games begin children.

Bill

Dirk Bell wrote:
> Hi Rick,
> 
> I would not make any assumptions about 80% of the time being spent on
> paperwork and writing documents. There are actual jobs at large
> defense contractors (Raytheon, NG, Lockheed-Martin, BAE Systems...)
> that are primarily doing DSP development (design and test).  You
> really need to evaluate the positions on a case by case basis. You
> might see something you like where you least expected it.
> 
> Dirk
> 
> 
> <clip>
> 
>>   well, being an aerospace company, so darn 
>>much of an engineer's time is spent writing 
>>documents (as opposed to designing and testing 
>>DSP systems) required by the Govt customer.
>>I'd guess about 80% of your time is reading 
>>and writing documents.
>>
> 
> <clip>
> 
>>[-Rick-]

Rick,

You have a great book.  You should write another one soon.

Bill

"Jaime Andres Aranguren Cardona" <jaime.aranguren@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:14a86f87.0401021300.618e5f3c@posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
.........................snip

>BTW, I'm also impressed by how important do you (USA citizens) think
> you are, when you actually are not. How can you call yourselves
> "americans"?. Look at a map: America is a whole, big continent, much
> richer than the USA is. "American" means "somebody originary from
> America", like "european" means "somebody originary from Europe", or
> "asian" means "somebody originary from Asia", etc...
> It looks like you are so short-brained that you think that America is
> just the USA.
>

Fred sez:

Talvez no tengo razon pero, con todo respeto, este no est�  exactamente la
verdad.  Pienso que es un poco extra�o (o peculiar?) que ellos Latino
Americanos refieren a "Norteamerica" y "Norteamericanos" cuando est�n
hablando de nosotros quien son natural del EEUU.  *Nosotros* no nos llamamos
"Norteamericanos".  �No es verdad?  M�xico est� in Norteamerica y no en la
America Central.  �Entonces porqu� no estan los Mexicanos "norteamericanos"
tambi�n (en su usage)? No se�or, el nombre "America" es un que esta usado en
todos partes y es comun en la America Latina.  Entonces, no es solamente
nuestra palabra - es suyo tambien.

..........................

>Again, it makes you, USA citizens,
>look short brained: you are very much scared about learning another
>language!!! You think there are no other languages in the world!!!

�Claro! Y por eso, ahora tengo que complitir este escrito en el ingl�s.

Fred said:

"Maybe I'm wrong but, with all respect, this isn't exactly true / correct.
I think that it's a little strange or peculiar that the Latin Americans
refer to North America and North Americans when they are speaking of we who
are natives of the United States.  *We* don't call ourselves North
Americans.  Isn't that so?  Mexico is in North America and not in Central
America.  Then why aren't Mexicans "North Americans" in *your* usage?  No
sir, the name "America" is one that's used everywhere and is common in Latin
America.  So, it isn't only our word - it's yours also."

[see: http://www.centramerica.com/  Mexico isn't part of the club.]

and (re: speaking various languages):

Sure!  And because of this, now I have to complete this writing in English.

.........................................

Without apology, I'm afraid that my Spanish is much worse than Jaime's
English!  Have you noticed that many people in Europe speak many languages?
Ever wonder why?  It's because it's rewarding to do so, it's convenient,
etc.  While I do speak Spanish, and I learned because of so many near
neighbors who speak Spanish, I now find that it brings me minimal practical
value living in the US.  At times it's very convenient but for others more
than for me.  Give people a reason to learn and they will.  Don't castigate
them for not learning something they don't truly need.  Sorry if it's based
on economics but that's just a fact of life.

Why do you speak English Jaime?  Is it because you're just a better person?
Or, might it be because you or your family saw value in it?

The term used in this thread "Mexifornia" wasn't cute.  I agree with Rick,
it was unfortunate and pejorative.  After all, who named California in the
first place?  Who settled California in the first place?  Some of my
relatives by marriage descend from a California Spanish Land Grant family -
the Vaca / Pe�a family whose ancestral home is found in Vacaville.  But I
guess some may have called them "gachipines" - a pejorative Mexican term for
Spaniards.  Sheeesh!

With all respect to those who strived to hold on to California in the early
1800's or to win California back then or to hold it together now - let's get
back to DSP here OK?

Fred

Jaime Andres Aranguren Cardona wrote:

> Hello Randy, Rick, and everybody.
> 
> 
>>>3/4 of the DMV employees (at least in the 
>>>San Fran. Bay area) speak Spanish.
>>
>>Bingo! This bullshit needs to stop. This is
>>the U.S.A.: we speak ENGLISH here.
> 
> 
> Can't believe it: looking short-brained, close-minded at all!

Wow - just look at that sentence structure. Yes, this is
communication at its finest.

>>My grandfather immigrated from Cypress (he was
>>a Greek Cypriot) in the 20's. Did they give him
>>forms in Greek or provide him with translators at
>>the DMV? No. He learned English, and it wasn't easy.
>>(He learned it by watching the movies.)
> 
> 
> With too much respect, poor of him. 

Yet another sentence with little correctness as well as meaning.
It appears that California isn't the only place with people who
can't write English (but think they can).

> You can't ignore that nowadays,
> the spanish-speaking community in the USA is quite important. 

Watch me.

>>Now, perhaps if the U.S. government took the hard line
>>they need to on this, the companies (McDonalds?) that are
>>so vested in hiring workers like these would sponsor some
>>English classes. Wow, what a concept...
> 
> 
> And that makes you feel great???

I feel great expressing my opinion, yes. If you can't argue
intelligently and must stoop to personal insult, then go
fuck yourself.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Randy Yates wrote:

> 
> I feel great expressing my opinion, yes. If you can't argue
> intelligently and must stoop to personal insult, then go
> fuck yourself.

I certainly hope that Jaime and the rest of the world reading this know that we
in the USA are not all ignorant fools like Randy.

-jim


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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jim wrote:
> 
> I certainly hope that Jaime and the rest of the world reading this know that we
> in the USA are not all ignorant fools like Randy.

I certainly hope you aren't confusing adherence to principle with foolishness. That
would be just plain stupid.

And it is for certain that you have no place speaking for the "we in the USA." That
is pretentious.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Hi, Rick.

You impressed me again. Going to the end of your post, I'd really love
to sit and discuss with you. About this one, and any other topic which
comes to mind.

> No they don't live fine compared to the average 
> American citizen.  No way.
> But I'm guessing they live *much* better 
> than the average Mexican citizen!
> That's why they're here!

Partly true. I'd better say that they go there because they _think_ it
will be better than what they have here. Sometimes it happens, good
for the people who can do that. But many times, it doesn't happen.
Most of the times, specially when they are illegal inmigrants, they
stay there because the US dollar is stronger than their countries'
currencies. But their lives are horrible. They do there (in the USA)
things that they wouldn't do in their homecountries, just because the
payment, which although low (in the US), becomes _bigger_ when
(partially) sent home.

> 
> >And let
> >me tell you why: because you, USA citizens exploit them as much as you
> >can!!!!! 
> 
> I do *not* exploit anyone.
> Not ever.

From the paragraph above, you can understand what I meant. I didn't
say it was specifically Rick Lyons the guy exploiting illegal
foreigners. But look around: I'm pretty sure that the inmigrants
around you are doing things that you wouldn't do, things that make
life somehow easier for you.

> 
> >Do you think that's fair?
> 
> Well, "fair" is a tough word to
> define. As Robert said, illegals 
> will work for low wages, and that's 
> exactly what keeps the wages low.
> However, those wages must be better than 
> they can earn in Mexico, or else they 
> would be still be in their own country.

My reply, in the first paragraph, above. Indeed, agreed with you.

> 
> >BTW, I'm also impressed by how important do you (USA citizens) think
> >you are, when you actually are not. 
> 
> Well, I didn't say American citizens were 
> important, in fact I criticized American 
> citizens for not caring about their country 
> or culture.  I *do* believe America is an 
> important country.  (We literally saved, with 
> the Brits, the human race in the last century.
> Can ya' imagine what life would be like 
> around the world if we'd lost World War II.)

What should I say? "Thank you"? He, he, he.

> 
> >How can you call yourselves
> >"americans"?. Look at a map: America is a whole, big continent, much
> >richer than the USA is. "American" means "somebody originary from
> >America", like "european" means "somebody originary from Europe", or
> >"asian" means "somebody originary from Asia", etc...
> 
> Ah Jaime, it looks like we have a semantic 
> problem here.   Maybe I should say the 
> "United States" (U.S.) instead of "America".

Yes. But maybe not every US citizen would agree. Thanks the Lord, you
are very clever.

> When I say "American" I mean a citizen of the 
> U.S., someone with a U.S. passport.
> A "European" to me means a person with 
> a passport from a European country, not 
> someone born in Europe.  My ex wife was born 
> in Europe but she's a U.S. citizen.  (By the 
> way, she (like our Governator Arnold) loves 
> the U.S. more than me.  That's because she 
> knows what it's like to grow up in another 
> country.

And I think that's good (about your wife, and you governator). That's
gratitude, isn't it?

> 
> >It looks like you are so short-brained that you think that America is
> >just the USA.
> 
> OK OK, I'll be more careful next time 
> with my terms.

Me too!!!!

> If you think I must learn a foreign language to 
> to get by in the U.S., then we'll never be able 
> to agree on anything.

Of course, absolutely NOT!!!! I agree with you. From what I learned in
the school (and I agree with), the language is one of the most
important things that give a nation it's own identity. Defend it,
that's good. But not in a "stubborn" manner.

> I lived in another country for five years.  I
> did not feel insulted that they spoke, they
> printed their signs, their telephone recordings, 
> their newspapers in ****their**** language.
> And in the name of sweet merciful Jesus in heaven, 
> I NEVER thought I had a right to vote in their 
> elections.  I WAS THE FOREIGNER!!!

Good. To keep in mind the reality.

As I said in my previous, original post, when you go to another place
you should learn what that country has to offer, with its particular
"taste": the language, the culture, the food, the customs. But it
doesn't mean that you can not let the others learn about your culture,
your customs, etc. The fact that you are a foreigner doesn't mean that
you are less than the citizens. Unless you cause damage to their
things... unfortunately, that's what happens many times with
foreigners or inmigrants. And in that case, no doubt, you are right in
being careful and worried.

> Well, I think that because these folks are willing 
> to risk walking through the desert (dangerous) 
> to get here.  They're willing to pay 
> dangerous hoodlums money to ride in the back of 
> a big truck in the hope of sneaking across our 
> border.  Every 6-9 months we here of illegals 
> dying in those damned trucks.
> Why do you think illegals are coming to the U.S.?
> They're looking for a better life than they have 
> in Mexico!!!!!!!!

Well said. They are "looking for", because they think they'll find it.
Unfortunately, many times they find something _very_ different.

> 
> >> The America that you dislike Jim, is 
> >> where they want to live.
> >> I'll bet you never lived in Mexico, did ya'?
> >
> >There is a HUGE lie, which is called the "american dream". Nobody
> >refuses to admit that living conditions in other countries in America
> >are less favorable than the ones for the average USA citizen (don't
> >call them "americans") or canadian person. But when they go there,
> >they rather live the "american hell".
> 
> Gosh Jaime, I'm not sure how to interpret that last 
> sentence.  Your blood pressure must have been high 
> when you typed it.  This is good!!!  It means you 
> care, ... and I like guys how care about something 
> (other than baseball or football). 

Oh, God! You were absolutely right about my blood pressure when I
typed that!!! And yes, I care. And what I mean by the "american hell",
contrasted with the "american dream" most of the inmigrants think
they'll find when they arrive to the USA, are the bad working
conditions, the discrimination and things like that.

> Darn.  I sure wish I could understand what you 
> were trying to say.  

I'm sure you can understand now that I was more explicit. Didn't want
to offend anyone. Just wanted to be "graphical" enough. It seems like
my expression made things rather unclear and confuse.

> >And for your information, I live in Colombia, and despite our
> >problems, I wouldn't move to the USA, becasue I find no reason to do
> >so. Doesn't the USA have problems? 
> 
> Jaime, that made me laugh, literally, out loud.
> The U.S. has so many problems that I am not 
> able to list them all here.

You see? Different countries, different problems. But still problems.
Lots of problems. And huge problems.

> >What makes people think it's a
> >better country to live in? 
> 
> Well, if it wasn't better than most, why do 
> SOOooo many people want to come into America?

Undoubtely, better _in some ways_. If you like technology, and want to
learn a lot, going to the US is a good idea. I can't discuss you
almost rule the world, for instance, in technology. We are seeing
changes, but you are still #1 in aspects like this one.

Undoubtely too, the US dollar is a strong currency. So, if you earn in
US dollars, even with a low payment, with a bad work, it looks like
good amounts of money when exchanged into other currencies. Well,
there are other strong currencies: Euro, UK Pound, etc... that reason
makes Europe, or the UK also good targets for inmigration. I think
that's the main reason for inmigration. But it doesn't mean that the
US (or Europe, or the UK, etc) are better countries... And another
reason could be that you already have, for instance, relatives, living
in the US. That could make inmigration _to the US_ easier than
inmigration to other countries.

But for example, culture is richer in Europe, if that makes a
difference for someone when discussing where is it better to live in.
So, dont think you are niether the only ones, nor the best ones.

> >C'mon: there even was a city mayor (I don't
> >recall if it was New York's mayor, or Washington's mayor, or from
> >another city) who was a drug-adict. 
> 
> That was Washington DC's black mayor.  (I think his 
> name was "Berry".)  He was 
> dealing in drugs, arrested, and I think he spent some 
> time in jail.  The interesting part is that he was later 
> re-elected as Mayor by those brain-dead knuckleheads
> living in Washington DC!!!  If he'd been white, 
> he'd never have been re-elected.

So, you say the "blackies" re-elected him... Other way to say what you
said could be that, if there weren't that many "blackies", but only
whites in Washington DC, they wouldn't have had such a mayor. Or at
least, not twice!

> >C'mon, what a country! And what to
> >say about Clinton's affairs???? 
> 
> I believe Clinton should be behind 
> bars eating bread and beans.
> He gave new meaning to the word "liar".

What an example for your children! The president of the great United
States of America, almost the most powerful and important person in
the world, is a big liar, who wasn't able to take care of the most
important thing for a person: his own, private life!!!

> 
> >You, USA citizens, have a two-sided
> >ethics! Combating durgs production in latin america, but you are the
> >kings and queens of consumption!!! 
> 
> I agree.

You see? For example, for Colombia: lots of money for destroying
drug's cultivation... but we know nothing about what the US internal
authorities do for combating consumption, and I am pretty sure that
they do very little, if something. I say: "no public, no clown". What
I mean is: if there is no demand, the offer makes no sense. But, as
long as there is such a big demand, there will be such a big offer.

And maybe you can think: "those damn latins are destroying our
society, by cultivating drugs and making such a big business at
expenses of our society's health". But look at it, from this
viewpoint: the consumption of drugs in the USA is the main source of
many of the problems that we have here in latin countries: violence,
poorness, etc... And trying to escape from those problems makes many
people to try to inmigrate to another countries. So, it's like a
circle. Do you scare when a US citizen gets kidnapped in a
latinamerican country??? Let me tell you, that it is exactly the vices
and drug-adiction of many US citizens what financially supports the
illegal groups that kidnap your compatriot!!!

Do you think I'd like to grow my children up (if I ever have them, I'm
just 25) in such a de-graded society??? I'm not saying that mine, or
any other society, is better than yours. The same way, your society
isn't better than any other. So, I place my question again: What makes
people think it's a better country to live in? I think, it's just
another country to live in, not better than any other.

> >And CA's governor: a foreign-born
> >film artist, c'mon!!!! You are so funny!!! 
> 
> Ah, now wait a minute here.
> Our politicians are usually lying, self-centered, 
> ignorant, bribe-taking, sexually-perverted, 
> traitorous, stupid (and I mean *really* stupid) 
> pieces of human excrement.  They will pass 
> any law that adds to the balance of their 
> personal bank account.

If you say so...

> The U.S. developed into a nation where humane rights, 
> and the value of the individual were made important.

Very good!

> In most countries, only the powerful are important.

Quite true.

> U.S. citizens have it so good that they can go to a 
> restaurant with their two kids, order two full meals for 
> the kids, have the kids refuse to eat so that the 
> kids' meals are then thrown away.   No problem, 
> this is the "land of plenty".  :-(

Typical "american" situation. Do you like that? Are your proud of
that? For _you_ (RL), I'd bet: NO! (you're clever, I said). You should
rather be ashamed of that!

> I imagine that no other country even comes close to 
> U.S. citizens when it comes to wasting food and 
> natural resources.  Our ancestors worked so hard to give 
> us so much, that we don't understand the value of what 
> we have.  We waste *too* much.


> I just thought of this:  The U.S. is such a great 
> country that if a U.S. citizen is stupid (can't balance 
> their checkbook) and lazy (only performs the minimum, 
> barely acceptable, work on the job), they have better 
> food, more comfortable living accommodations, more 
> material things, than Julius Caesar the ruler of 
> the known Western World.

Do you really think that's the meaning of _great country_???? You said
you were worried about your children... look at what kind of society
will your children have. I'd prefer not to have that many things to
waste, but not to live in such a degraded society. I'd prefer a
society with values, ethics, a society for persons, not for things.

> Jaime, let me tell you something about discrimination 
> in the U.S. right now.   If I were to apply for a job 
> (with Intel, Motorola, MicroSoft, Northrop, Lockheed Martin)
> and another applicant is non-white (black, East Indian, 
> Chinese, Hispanic, Vietnamese, etc.) with approximately 
> equal qualifications to mine, I have essentially *no* 
> chance of being hired.  

And you say that the US' people don't exploit the people from
abroad???? The reason for you not to be hired in that situation is
that, for the same amount of work, or maybe even more, the foreigner
will be much less paid than the US citizen! You said you don't think
you are better than the others???? If so, why wouldn't you work for
the same payment than the person that you call "non-white"???? And
look: the very evidence that you are not at all better than the other,
is that, as you yourself said, both can have the same qualifications!

> I am the evil white guy who is 
> to blame for all the problems on the planet Earth.

Oh, poor guy!

> Darn, yours was a good post Jaime.  

Thank you! Yours are great, too.

> I wish we could 
> discuss this over a cafe table while drinking beer.

Me too!

> Do you have beer breweries in Columbia?
> You probably do.

Sure, we do. And please: ColOmbia. He, he.

> Maybe you'll buy me a plane ticket to visit you 
> there.  I'd like that.

Maybe one day. After you invite me to visit you.

> If you travel to northern California, let me know 
> ahead of time, OK?

Of course, I would.

> 
> Regards,
> [-Rick-]

Just want to add, for finishing my post, that being able to discuss,
in an open manner, without hurting anyone, but expressing your
thoughts, is one of the greatest things of the newsgroups. Specially
of comp.dsp. The exchange of opinions and ways of thought is one of
the things that make life richer. I'm not discovering anything, just
wanted to say it.

Regards,

JaaC

jim <"N0sp"@m.sjedging@mwt.net> wrote in message news:<3ff71d9d_4@corp.newsgroups.com>...
> Randy Yates wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I feel great expressing my opinion, yes. If you can't argue
> > intelligently and must stoop to personal insult, then go
> > fuck yourself.
> 
> I certainly hope that Jaime and the rest of the world reading this know that we
> in the USA are not all ignorant fools like Randy.

Thanks. I know that. It would be absolutely unbeliveable.

> 
> -jim
> 
> 
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

> >
> ........................snip
> 
> >BTW, I'm also impressed by how important do you (USA citizens) think
> > you are, when you actually are not. How can you call yourselves
> > "americans"?. Look at a map: America is a whole, big continent, much
> > richer than the USA is. "American" means "somebody originary from
> > America", like "european" means "somebody originary from Europe", or
> > "asian" means "somebody originary from Asia", etc...
> > It looks like you are so short-brained that you think that America is
> > just the USA.
> >
> 
> Fred sez:
> 
> Talvez no tengo razon pero, con todo respeto, este no est�  exactamente la
> verdad.  Pienso que es un poco extra�o (o peculiar?) que ellos Latino
> Americanos refieren a "Norteamerica" y "Norteamericanos" cuando est�n
> hablando de nosotros quien son natural del EEUU.  *Nosotros* no nos llamamos
> "Norteamericanos".  �No es verdad?  M�xico est� in Norteamerica y no en la
> America Central.  �Entonces porqu� no estan los Mexicanos "norteamericanos"
> tambi�n (en su usage)? No se�or, el nombre "America" es un que esta usado en
> todos partes y es comun en la America Latina.  Entonces, no es solamente
> nuestra palabra - es suyo tambien.

Parcialmente cierto. Dicho de otro modo, no solamente ustedes _se
llaman_ "norteamericanos", o "americanos". Tambien _los llaman_ asi
los demas.

> .........................
> 
> >Again, it makes you, USA citizens,
> >look short brained: you are very much scared about learning another
> >language!!! You think there are no other languages in the world!!!
> 
> �Claro! Y por eso, ahora tengo que complitir este escrito en el ingl�s.

Que conste que dije "look short brained". Nunca dije "_are_ short
brained".

> 
> Fred said:
> 
> "Maybe I'm wrong but, with all respect, this isn't exactly true / correct.
> I think that it's a little strange or peculiar that the Latin Americans
> refer to North America and North Americans when they are speaking of we who
> are natives of the United States.  *We* don't call ourselves North
> Americans.  Isn't that so?  Mexico is in North America and not in Central
> America.  Then why aren't Mexicans "North Americans" in *your* usage?  No
> sir, the name "America" is one that's used everywhere and is common in Latin
> America.  So, it isn't only our word - it's yours also."

Partially true. In other words, not only you call yourselves
"northamericans" or "americans". You are also called that way by
others.

> 
> Sure!  And because of this, now I have to complete this writing in English.

Keep in mind that I said "look short brained". I never said "_are_
short brained".

> Why do you speak English Jaime?  Is it because you're just a better person?
> Or, might it be because you or your family saw value in it?

Because I just wanted to learn it. The same reason why I wanted to
learn german, too.

> Let's get back to DSP here OK?

Please, let's do it. Anyway, the discussion has been very interesting.

> 
> Fred

JaaC

"Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message news:<OcSdnZxxkKKX-muiRVn-uA@centurytel.net>...
> Have you noticed that many people in Europe speak many languages?
> Ever wonder why?  It's because it's rewarding to do so, it's convenient,
> etc.  

Yes and no. Yes, many people in Europe speak or can work their way through 
many languages. I believe myself to be able to hear the difference 
between most west/south European languages (those west of what used to be 
the iron curtain), and may be able to recognize one or two of the east 
European languages, while understanding only fragments of whatever is
said in most of them. 

No, the reasons have little to do with convenience or cultural and other 
rewards in mastering languages, the reasons have to do with exposure to 
the languages. 

The Scandinavian languages provide an interesting case study. Norwegian, 
Swedish and Danish share the same Norse roots. Norwegian written language
is based on the Danish written language that was introduced while we were 
subsidiary to the Danish king. The term "bokm�l", used to designate 
the most wide-spread form of written Norwgian, literally means "the 
language of the books". There is another written form based on spoken 
dialects called "nynorsk", "new Norwegian".

Now, Norway was subsidiary to the Danish throne for some 400 years prior 
to 1814, and then to the Swedish throne from 1814-15 to 1905. So we have 
always been exposed to the Swedish and Danish languages. I am not at all 
convinced that most Swedes and Danes are very exposed to the Norwegian 
language. My experience is that I understand spoken Swedish and Danish 
very easily, while the Swedes and Danes have to work harder to understand 
Norwegian. It's the matter of exposure once more.

The funny thing is that I have observed Swedes and Danes talking together, 
where they preferred to switch to English.  

> While I do speak Spanish, and I learned because of so many near
> neighbors who speak Spanish, I now find that it brings me minimal practical
> value living in the US.  

Eh... I have met Americans who joked(?) that they dealt with the 
"no mutual language situation" by shouting at the other party. The 
rationale was, apparently, that the reflex reaction to no communication 
is that the other party suffers from a hearing loss. 

Learning that second language could help getting rid of that reflex, 
which can be percieved as very patronizing or otherwise disrespectful 
by the recieving party.

> Why do you speak English Jaime?  Is it because you're just a better person?
> Or, might it be because you or your family saw value in it?

The main reason for so many Scandinavians being from "just workable" to 
fluent in English is the flood of English films on TV and cinema that are 
showed with original sound tracks and subtitles. Sure, there are benefits 
from learning new languages and there are incentives for learning foreign 
languages, but here we didn't really have a choise. If you are healthy 
and have access to TV or cinema, you are exposed to so much English 
language that you just have to pick up at least some of it.

Perhaps the native English speaking people here have better foundations
for opinions, but my experience is that English as a means for 
communication works well in countries that show English films undubbed 
in TV and cinema. Where people are exposed to the spoken language, they 
learn. A few years ago I stayed in Italy for a few months. Italian TV and 
Italian cinemas apparently dub the voice tracks in foreign material to 
Italian. I didn't know (nor did I learn) Italian, so outside of work I 
had to try to get along using my scarce fragments of German, or rely on 
my Spanish colleauge to interpret. Only in the "tourist hotspots" in 
Liguria and Toscana could I rely on my English.

Rune

Rune Allnor wrote:
 >
snip
> 
> The Scandinavian languages provide an interesting case study. Norwegian, 
> Swedish and Danish share the same Norse roots. Norwegian written language
> is based on the Danish written language that was introduced while we were 
> subsidiary to the Danish king. The term "bokm�l", used to designate 
> the most wide-spread form of written Norwgian, literally means "the 
> language of the books". There is another written form based on spoken 
> dialects called "nynorsk", "new Norwegian".

hehe, that explains why Norwegain look like danish written by someone 
that doesn't spell too good :)

> 
> Now, Norway was subsidiary to the Danish throne for some 400 years prior 
> to 1814, and then to the Swedish throne from 1814-15 to 1905. So we have 
> always been exposed to the Swedish and Danish languages. I am not at all 
> convinced that most Swedes and Danes are very exposed to the Norwegian 
> language. My experience is that I understand spoken Swedish and Danish 
> very easily, while the Swedes and Danes have to work harder to understand 
> Norwegian. It's the matter of exposure once more.
> 

I've always though Norwegian was easier to understand than Swedish, but 
I'm from the northern part of Denmark

The tricky part is that the same word can mean totally different things
in the different languages

> The funny thing is that I have observed Swedes and Danes talking together, 
> where they preferred to switch to English.  
> 

I've done that :)

>
snip

-Lasse

"Rune Allnor" <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:f56893ae.0401040459.1359f2f0@posting.google.com...
> "Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message
news:<OcSdnZxxkKKX-muiRVn-uA@centurytel.net>...

...............................
Rune,

Great observations!  Very interesting history too.  Well, exposure and
convenience sorta go hand in hand don't they?

One good thing about learning other languages and speaking with folks in
other countries in their own language is that you get a sense for ingrained
cultural behaviors that you might never otherwise observe.  I can tell a
story about that:

I was leaving the hotel bar in Rosarito, BC Mexico in the late afternoon,
driving my car with California plates, heading for dinner at a really nice
restaurant in Tijuana.  (Yes, there are such places...) My lady companion
was native to Mexico.  I had left the directions to the restaurant in the
trunk of the car (the "boot").  So, I pulled off the road to retrieve it.
As I was doing this, a Mexican police car approached and they came by to
question me for no reason I can think of.  We were talking through our
windows between the cars.  My companion whispered: "ask them for
directions!"  I replied: "huh?" and she repeated: "ask them for directions!"
They'd asked where I was going or what I was doing so I said (in Spanish):
"Sir, can you please tell me how to get to this restaurant in Tijuana?"  The
officer apparently didn't know where it was but he very politely told me it
was in Tijuana, I thanked him, and they and drove away.  Not the sort dialog
or action I'd expect under the circumstances.

Now, I don't know exactly what happened but my other experiences tell me
that these folks are very polite in their speech indeed.  They often speak
with one another as we may have spoken long ago.  It's an aspect of the
language I'm sure I'll never have the opportunity to learn.  Anyway, if one
is being so very polite I figure it's hard to be otherwise in one's
actions - something like that.  Or, maybe it set a tone of civility and
expectation.  I just don't know....  But the advice sure seemed to work!
Come to think of it, this might work anywhere in the world and I just
wouldn't have thought of it!!

The other interesting thing about knowing other languages is the ability to
express oneself in ways that are impossible to get the sense of it exactly
right on in our native languages.  When I had spoken Spanish for a while -
up to a point where I could reasonably express myself and had learned a
number of idiomatic expressions - I would find myself wanting to say
something in English that *would* be directly expressed in Spanish - but
couldn't be well-expressed in English to adequately capture the intended
meaning.  I'm sure everyone who's multilingual has that experience.

Rune, I haven't forgotten about the FFT / z-transform math discussion - just
haven't gotten back to it quite yet.  Thanks for the reply.....

Fred

"Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message news:<r9ydnYnaIv7_5GWiRVn-gw@centurytel.net>...
> "Rune Allnor" <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote in message
> news:f56893ae.0401040459.1359f2f0@posting.google.com...
> > "Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message
> news:<OcSdnZxxkKKX-muiRVn-uA@centurytel.net>...
> 
> ..............................
> Rune,
> 
> Great observations!  Very interesting history too.  Well, exposure and
> convenience sorta go hand in hand don't they?

They do. Still, in the early phases exposure is probably the main mechanism.
My two-and-a-half-year-old nephew has already started picking up the odd
English word. With him it has nothing to do with convenience.

> The other interesting thing about knowing other languages is the ability to
> express oneself in ways that are impossible to get the sense of it exactly
> right on in our native languages.  When I had spoken Spanish for a while -
> up to a point where I could reasonably express myself and had learned a
> number of idiomatic expressions - I would find myself wanting to say
> something in English that *would* be directly expressed in Spanish - but
> couldn't be well-expressed in English to adequately capture the intended
> meaning.  I'm sure everyone who's multilingual has that experience.

Yep, I know that one. A tone point I operated three variations of 
Norwegian, (one spoken, two written forms), two forms of English 
(spoken and written) and a thad of German (stottering rather than 
spoken). Keeping my maltreatment of German out of it, these were six
different languages that were suitable for six different things.
 
> Rune, I haven't forgotten about the FFT / z-transform math discussion - just
> haven't gotten back to it quite yet.  Thanks for the reply.....

Nah, never mind. I haven't done too much myself. ;)

Rune

allnor@tele.ntnu.no (Rune Allnor) wrote in message news:<f56893ae.0401042245.5c22a2cc@posting.google.com>...

> Yep, I know that one. A tone point I operated three variations of 
> Norwegian, (one spoken, two written forms), two forms of English 
> (spoken and written) and a thad of German (stottering rather than 
> spoken). Keeping my maltreatment of German out of it, these were six
> different languages that were suitable for six different things.

Hmm, just to split my own hairs: That should be five languages...
but then, I don't remember exacrtly what I meant when I wrote that...

Rune

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:20:47 -0600, bg <learn@dsp-workshops.com>
wrote:


>> 
>> <clip>
>> 
>>>   well, being an aerospace company, so darn 
>>>much of an engineer's time is spent writing 
>>>documents (as opposed to designing and testing 
>>>DSP systems) required by the Govt customer.
>>>I'd guess about 80% of your time is reading 
>>>and writing documents.
>>>
>> 
>> <clip>
>> 
>>>[-Rick-]
>
>Rick,
>
>You have a great book.  You should write another one soon.
>
>Bill
>

Thanks.  I appreciate that.

Actually, I'm workin' on a second 
edition right now.
I forgot just how *much* work this 
takes.  Whew!

[-Rick-]

Randy Yates wrote:
> Jaime Andres Aranguren Cardona wrote:
> 
>> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message 
>> news:<vUeJb.4926$6B.392@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
>>
>>> Rick Lyons wrote:
>>> > [...]
>>>
>>>> Do we want citizens of a another country voting in our elections?
>>>
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>>> We need to make it a law that anyone who works in the U.S. must
>>> be able to speak English to some minimal level. We need to stop
>>> pandering to the lazy leaches that come into this country and
>>> expect us to educate them in their language.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's good. Of course, wherever you go, you shold learn what that
>> country has to offer, with the "taste" it has. But it doesn't mean
>> that your culture and your language is niether the best, nor the only
>> one that exists.
>>
>> "Citizen" means somebedy who has adopted the culture of a country, in
>> case he/she wasn't born in that country. It means becoming integral
>> part of that country.
> 
> 
> Jaime, I agree 100 percent. There is a lot of beauty and history in
> other cultures (most more than American). It is not a matter of one
> being "better" than the other. If I went to France I wouldn't expect the
> French to give me DMV forms in English and provide English teachers for
> my children in their schools.

Just to make things a bit more complicated.

  A person born in and resides in Puerto Rico or Guam is a natural born 
US citizen but can not vote for president or have representation in 
Congress. They don't pay federal income taxes unless they are federal 
employees.

   A US citizen who lives in the District of Columbia does not have 
representation in Congress but can vote for president.  They pay federal 
  income  tax.

It seems that being a citizen of any particular state has a distinct 
status.

  Consider also native Hawaiians and members of federally recognized 
tribes. They have distinct cultural identities. These groups have status 
that is akin to domestic sovereignty.

The Bill of Rights grants equal protection under the law and the courts 
have consistently interpreted that non-citizens have the same rights of 
due process.

To be president, one needs to be native  born.

Taken as a whole, the concept of "US  citizen" is IMHO a bit of a mess.

Rune Allnor wrote:

> "Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message news:<r9ydnYnaIv7_5GWiRVn-gw@centurytel.net>...
> 
>>"Rune Allnor" <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote in message
>>news:f56893ae.0401040459.1359f2f0@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>"Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message
>>
>>news:<OcSdnZxxkKKX-muiRVn-uA@centurytel.net>...
>>
>>..............................
>>Rune,
>>
>>Great observations!  Very interesting history too.  Well, exposure and
>>convenience sorta go hand in hand don't they?
> 
> 
> They do. Still, in the early phases exposure is probably the main mechanism.
> My two-and-a-half-year-old nephew has already started picking up the odd
> English word. With him it has nothing to do with convenience.
> 
> 
>>The other interesting thing about knowing other languages is the ability to
>>express oneself in ways that are impossible to get the sense of it exactly
>>right on in our native languages.  When I had spoken Spanish for a while -
>>up to a point where I could reasonably express myself and had learned a
>>number of idiomatic expressions - I would find myself wanting to say
>>something in English that *would* be directly expressed in Spanish - but
>>couldn't be well-expressed in English to adequately capture the intended
>>meaning.  I'm sure everyone who's multilingual has that experience.

Indeed. Here's another experience I know that others had: I was reading
Goethe's Egmont for a class, and my mind wandered as I mused about some
passage. All of a sudden, my mind just stopped. I don't mean that I
forgot the train of thought. It just stopped cold. It turned out that I
had been thinking in German and snuck up on an idea I didn't have the
vocabulary for. Weird, but apparently common at some stage of language
learning. (My mother could only do arithmetic in French.)

> Yep, I know that one. A tone point I operated three variations of 
> Norwegian, (one spoken, two written forms), two forms of English 
> (spoken and written) and a thad of German (stottering rather than 
> spoken). Keeping my maltreatment of German out of it, these were six
> different languages that were suitable for six different things.

Rune, did you compartmentalize? I grew up speaking English and bits of
French and Yiddish. A friend of my mother's brought me a beret from
France (my age: 4). It blew off my head into New York Harbor on a windy
ferry crossing. (Beret = hat) := French. What came out of my mouth was
an anguished "O! Mon chapeau!" That's probably the only truly
spontaneous French I ever uttered.

   ...

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

"Rune Allnor" <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:f56893ae.0401040459.1359f2f0@posting.google.com...
> "Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message
news:<OcSdnZxxkKKX-muiRVn-uA@centurytel.net>...
> > Have you noticed that many people in Europe speak many languages?
> > Ever wonder why?  It's because it's rewarding to do so, it's convenient,
> > etc.
>
> Yes and no. Yes, many people in Europe speak or can work their way through
> many languages. I believe myself to be able to hear the difference
> between most west/south European languages (those west of what used to be
> the iron curtain), and may be able to recognize one or two of the east
> European languages, while understanding only fragments of whatever is
> said in most of them.
>
> No, the reasons have little to do with convenience or cultural and other
> rewards in mastering languages, the reasons have to do with exposure to
> the languages.
>
> The Scandinavian languages provide an interesting case study. Norwegian,
> Swedish and Danish share the same Norse roots. Norwegian written language
> is based on the Danish written language that was introduced while we were
> subsidiary to the Danish king. The term "bokm�l", used to designate
> the most wide-spread form of written Norwgian, literally means "the
> language of the books". There is another written form based on spoken
> dialects called "nynorsk", "new Norwegian".
>
> Now, Norway was subsidiary to the Danish throne for some 400 years prior
> to 1814, and then to the Swedish throne from 1814-15 to 1905. So we have
> always been exposed to the Swedish and Danish languages. I am not at all
> convinced that most Swedes and Danes are very exposed to the Norwegian
> language. My experience is that I understand spoken Swedish and Danish
> very easily, while the Swedes and Danes have to work harder to understand
> Norwegian. It's the matter of exposure once more.
>
> The funny thing is that I have observed Swedes and Danes talking together,
> where they preferred to switch to English.

Hey Rune,

I suddenly realized that you didn't say anything about Finnish.  There are
lots of Finns here so I'm curious.

Fred

"Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message news:<qNadnRT4oKbXWmSiRVn-jQ@centurytel.net>...
> "Rune Allnor" <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote in message
> news:f56893ae.0401040459.1359f2f0@posting.google.com...
> > "Fred Marshall" <fmarshallx@remove_the_x.acm.org> wrote in message
>  news:<OcSdnZxxkKKX-muiRVn-uA@centurytel.net>...
> > > Have you noticed that many people in Europe speak many languages?
> > > Ever wonder why?  It's because it's rewarding to do so, it's convenient,
> > > etc.
> >
> > Yes and no. Yes, many people in Europe speak or can work their way through
> > many languages. I believe myself to be able to hear the difference
> > between most west/south European languages (those west of what used to be
> > the iron curtain), and may be able to recognize one or two of the east
> > European languages, while understanding only fragments of whatever is
> > said in most of them.
> >
> > No, the reasons have little to do with convenience or cultural and other
> > rewards in mastering languages, the reasons have to do with exposure to
> > the languages.
> >
> > The Scandinavian languages provide an interesting case study. Norwegian,
> > Swedish and Danish share the same Norse roots. Norwegian written language
> > is based on the Danish written language that was introduced while we were
> > subsidiary to the Danish king. The term "bokm�l", used to designate
> > the most wide-spread form of written Norwgian, literally means "the
> > language of the books". There is another written form based on spoken
> > dialects called "nynorsk", "new Norwegian".
> >
> > Now, Norway was subsidiary to the Danish throne for some 400 years prior
> > to 1814, and then to the Swedish throne from 1814-15 to 1905. So we have
> > always been exposed to the Swedish and Danish languages. I am not at all
> > convinced that most Swedes and Danes are very exposed to the Norwegian
> > language. My experience is that I understand spoken Swedish and Danish
> > very easily, while the Swedes and Danes have to work harder to understand
> > Norwegian. It's the matter of exposure once more.
> >
> > The funny thing is that I have observed Swedes and Danes talking together,
> > where they preferred to switch to English.
> 
> Hey Rune,
> 
> I suddenly realized that you didn't say anything about Finnish.  There are
> lots of Finns here so I'm curious.
> 
> Fred

Perhaps the Finns would be better suited to fill you in, but Finnish is
a language standing almost on its own. The only European language that 
comes even remotely close, is Hungarian. These two languages, apparently,
make up the bulk of what is known in Norwegian as the "Finsk-Ugrisk" 
language family (some term derivated from "Finnish-Hungarian" probably 
exist in English as well), and I think this is an entire language family 
on the same level as Indo-European languages being one family (I may be 
wrong on placing the family so high in the language hierarky, though).

I did see a doucumentary series about these things on Swedish TV a 
couple of years ago, although I believe the programmes originally were 
made by Finnish TV. The traced the roots of this group of languages 
to find the extent, geographical and otherwise, of this language family. 
They traced the "proto Finnish" language to some tribal languages of 
some very small groups of Eskimos in Siberia, way east of the Urals. 

It's an interesting story. I wish I knew more about it. Still, for me to 
be able to communicate with Finns, English is the language to use.
Swedish is spoken in some areas of Finland. I don't know how many Finns
speak Swedish, though.

Rune

Fred Marshall wrote:

....

> Hey Rune,
> 
> I suddenly realized that you didn't say anything about Finnish.  There are
> lots of Finns here so I'm curious.

Yes, good point. Finnish is not a baltic language, it doesn't have
nordic-germanic roots like Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish, etc.

I think it is more closely related to my father's tongue, Hungarian
.... let's see ...

Ah yes, try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages

> 
> Fred

Rune Allnor wrote:
> Perhaps the Finns would be better suited to fill you in, but Finnish is
> a language standing almost on its own. The only European language that 
> comes even remotely close, is Hungarian. 

What about Quenya[1]? Oh right - maybe those aren't European. ;-)

[1] http://freespace.virgin.net/m.poxon/lingodoc.htm

-- 
Jim Thomas            Principal Applications Engineer  Bittware, Inc
jthomas@bittware.com  http://www.bittware.com          (703) 779-7770
Dyslexics of the world, UNTIE!

Andor wrote:

> Fred Marshall wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> 
>>Hey Rune,
>>
>>I suddenly realized that you didn't say anything about Finnish.  There are
>>lots of Finns here so I'm curious.
> 
> 
> Yes, good point. Finnish is not a baltic language, it doesn't have
> nordic-germanic roots like Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish, etc.
> 
> I think it is more closely related to my father's tongue, Hungarian
> ... let's see ...
> 
> Ah yes, try this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages
> 
> 
>>Fred

I had the impression that an affinity to Basque was in there somewhere.
Is that altogether whacko?

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<3ffac7ab$0$6757$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>...
> Andor wrote:
> 
> > Fred Marshall wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > 
> >>Hey Rune,
> >>
> >>I suddenly realized that you didn't say anything about Finnish.  There are
> >>lots of Finns here so I'm curious.
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, good point. Finnish is not a baltic language, it doesn't have
> > nordic-germanic roots like Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish, etc.
> > 
> > I think it is more closely related to my father's tongue, Hungarian
> > ... let's see ...
> > 
> > Ah yes, try this:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages
> > 
> > 
> >>Fred
> 
> I had the impression that an affinity to Basque was in there somewhere.
> Is that altogether whacko?
> 
> Jerry

I don't know. But that Sweids/Finnish TV program I saw went, based on 
the cultural history of the Siberian tribes who use(d) these languages, 
very far in implying that the Finno-Ugric languages are very old, 
perhaps on the order of 20,000-40,000 years. Basque is, apparently, 
also a very old language. Of course, age alone doesn't imply there is a 
connection. 

Rune

an2or@mailcircuit.com (Andor) wrote in message news:<ce45f9ed.0401060454.33e9ccef@posting.google.com>...
> Fred Marshall wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > Hey Rune,
> > 
> > I suddenly realized that you didn't say anything about Finnish.  There are
> > lots of Finns here so I'm curious.
> 
> Yes, good point. Finnish is not a baltic language, it doesn't have
> nordic-germanic roots like Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish, etc.
> 
> I think it is more closely related to my father's tongue, Hungarian
> ... let's see ...
> 
> Ah yes, try this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages
> 

That was interesting! That page lists Finnish and Saami as "cousin"
languages. I always thought those languages sounded somewhat similar, 
but I thought that was by coincidence and my non-familiarity with 
either of them. I didn't know Saami belonged to this group of languages. 

Rune

Jerry Avins wrote:
....
> >>I suddenly realized that you didn't say anything about Finnish.  There are
> >>lots of Finns here so I'm curious.
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, good point. Finnish is not a baltic language, it doesn't have
> > nordic-germanic roots like Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish, etc.
> > 
> > I think it is more closely related to my father's tongue, Hungarian
> > ... let's see ...
> > 
> > Ah yes, try this:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages
> > 
> > 
> >>Fred
> 
> I had the impression that an affinity to Basque was in there somewhere.
> Is that altogether whacko?
> 
> Jerry

It seems not (according to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language). I would have thought
Basque was of Celtic origin, but that also doesn't seem to be the
case. Linguistics is a fascinating topic!

Quite recently, there was some fertile crossbreeding between
compuational biology (sequence matching and evolutionary tree
reconstruction) and compuational linguistic which led to a regrouping
of the classical human language tree - perhaps this will shed new
light on this mysterious language.

Regards,
Andor

an2or@mailcircuit.com (Andor) wrote in message news:<ce45f9ed.0401061454.2babc352@posting.google.com>...

> Quite recently, there was some fertile crossbreeding between
> compuational biology (...) and compuational linguistic 

That new field would be biological linguistics...?  ;)

Rune

allnor@tele.ntnu.no (Rune Allnor) writes:

> an2or@mailcircuit.com (Andor) wrote in message news:<ce45f9ed.0401061454.2babc352@posting.google.com>...
> 
> > Quite recently, there was some fertile crossbreeding between
> > compuational biology (...) and compuational linguistic 
> 
> That new field would be biological linguistics...?  ;)

I think nano-linguistics should also be studied.

I wonder what it would entail?  Looking at how a given language or the
accent used changes per nanometre?

;-)

Ciao,

Peter K.

-- 
Peter J. Kootsookos

"I will ignore all ideas for new works [..], the invention of which
 has reached its limits and for whose improvement I see no further
 hope."

- Julius Frontinus, c. AD 84

allnor@tele.ntnu.no (Rune Allnor) wrote in message news:<f56893ae.0401070029.37d3b831@posting.google.com>...
> an2or@mailcircuit.com (Andor) wrote in message news:<ce45f9ed.0401061454.2babc352@posting.google.com>...
> 
> > Quite recently, there was some fertile crossbreeding between
> > compuational biology (...) and compuational linguistic 
> 
> That new field would be biological linguistics...?  ;)
> 
> Rune

Naw, biological linguistics is like having your foot in 
your mouth.
 
Ken

avoidingspam2001@yahoo.com (Ken Asbury) wrote in message news:<30600528.0401080556.bf16f8f@posting.google.com>...
> allnor@tele.ntnu.no (Rune Allnor) wrote in message news:<f56893ae.0401070029.37d3b831@posting.google.com>...
> > an2or@mailcircuit.com (Andor) wrote in message news:<ce45f9ed.0401061454.2babc352@posting.google.com>...
> > 
> > > Quite recently, there was some fertile crossbreeding between
> > > compuational biology (...) and compuational linguistic 
> > 
> > That new field would be biological linguistics...?  ;)
> > 
> > Rune
> 
> Naw, biological linguistics is like having your foot in 
> your mouth.
>  
> Ken

Of course. Then we are talking about linguistic biology: How to 
talk a girl into reproducing with you.

Rune

Rick Lyons wrote:
> 
> With a driver's license you can rent a car, 
> get plane tickets, buy guns, and *VOTE*.
> 

You're getting confused between a driver's license and citizenship.

e.g. as an H1B here in CA I have a CA driver's license but I can neither 
buy guns nor vote, since I am not a US citizen.

Paul

Randy Yates wrote:
> 
> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.

But that would mean that you would have to revoke the citizenship of 
both the POTUS and the Governator of Collyfornia.

Paul

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:59:32 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
wrote:

>Rick Lyons wrote:
>> 
>> With a driver's license you can rent a car, 
>> get plane tickets, buy guns, and *VOTE*.
>> 
>
>You're getting confused between a driver's license and citizenship.
>
>e.g. as an H1B here in CA I have a CA driver's license but I can neither 
>buy guns nor vote, since I am not a US citizen.
>
>Paul

Hi Paul,

  Last year I went to take the test to qualify 
myself to buy a handgun, in Placer County California,
and all I needed was my Driver's License. 
As for voting, the situation is changing all the 
time.
We'll see what happens in the coming months.

Take Care Paul,
[-Rick-]
	

Randy Yates wrote:

   ...

> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.

What about American citizens, born and raised on American soil, where
some other language is the native tongue? Maybe we could require that
one must be fluent in two languages, one of them English, in order to
vote. That would cover that case.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Rick Lyons wrote:

   ...


> Hi Paul,
> 
>   Last year I went to take the test to qualify 
> myself to buy a handgun, in Placer County California,
> and all I needed was my Driver's License. 
> As for voting, the situation is changing all the 
> time.
> We'll see what happens in the coming months.
> 
> Take Care Paul,
> [-Rick-]

Rick,

It seems to me that you're asking for the wrong remedy. It should be
illegal for any government official to dispense, and for any non-citizen
ro apply for, gun permits. Driver's licenses for non-citizens should be
so marked, just as the requirement that the driver wear glasses is now.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

allnor@tele.ntnu.no (Rune Allnor) wrote in message news:<f56893ae.0401081038.72d0ba1e@posting.google.com>...
> avoidingspam2001@yahoo.com (Ken Asbury) wrote in message news:<30600528.0401080556.bf16f8f@posting.google.com>...
> > allnor@tele.ntnu.no (Rune Allnor) wrote in message news:<f56893ae.0401070029.37d3b831@posting.google.com>...
> > > an2or@mailcircuit.com (Andor) wrote in message news:<ce45f9ed.0401061454.2babc352@posting.google.com>...
> > > 
> > > > Quite recently, there was some fertile crossbreeding between
> > > > compuational biology (...) and compuational linguistic 
> > > 
> > > That new field would be biological linguistics...?  ;)
> > > 
> > > Rune
> > 
> > Naw, biological linguistics is like having your foot in 
> > your mouth.
> >  
> > Ken
> 
> Of course. Then we are talking about linguistic biology: How to 
> talk a girl into reproducing with you.
> 
> Rune

Rune, 

It's embarrassing enough that you're better in (at least) 2 
languages than I am in my only one, but you needn't rub it 
in by being funnier, too.

Ken

Jerry Avins wrote:

> Randy Yates wrote:
> 
>   ...
> 
>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
> 
> 
> What about American citizens, born and raised on American soil, where
> some other language is the native tongue? Maybe we could require that
> one must be fluent in two languages, one of them English, in order to
> vote. That would cover that case.

If they're born in the U.S., then the native tongue is ENGLISH.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

bg wrote:

> Randy Yates wrote:
> 
>> Rick Lyons wrote:
>>  > [...]
>>
>>> Do we want citizens of a another country voting in our elections?
>>
>>
>>
>> No.
>>
>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>> We need to make it a law that anyone who works in the U.S. must
>> be able to speak English to some minimal level. We need to stop
>> pandering to the lazy leaches that come into this country and
>> expect us to educate them in their language.
> 
> Randy,
> 
> Let's get that "poll tax" back too.
> 
> Bill

Bill,

Why don't we also go ahead and build two roads where one is sufficient
everywhere in the U.S. and ask everyone to travel both of them for
every trip they take to work? This makes as much sense as encouraging
two languages in one country.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Paul Russell wrote:

> Randy Yates wrote:
> 
>>
>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
> 
> 
> But that would mean that you would have to revoke the citizenship of 
> both the POTUS and the Governator of Collyfornia.

The "POTUS"???

Arnold has a big accent. That's OK. So did my grandfather.
But damn it, they both speak (or spoke) English here in this country.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Stan Pawlukiewicz wrote:
> [much good information snipped]
> Taken as a whole, the concept of "US  citizen" is IMHO a bit of a mess.

Stan,

An excellent point. Perhaps, if we were serious about straightening this
situation out, we should start by redefining in simple terms what defines
a citizen, what requirements we have of them, and what privileges citizenship
grants them.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Randy Yates wrote:

> Jerry Avins wrote:
> 
>> Randy Yates wrote:
>>
>>   ...
>>
>>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>>
>>
>>
>> What about American citizens, born and raised on American soil, where
>> some other language is the native tongue? Maybe we could require that
>> one must be fluent in two languages, one of them English, in order to
>> vote. That would cover that case.
> 
> 
> If they're born in the U.S., then the native tongue is ENGLISH.

Porto Rico is US soil. Most people born there speak Spanish. Many, but
not all, learn to speak English too. They are all American citizens by
right of birth.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Randy Yates wrote:
> 
>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>
>>> Randy Yates wrote:
>>>
>>>   ...
>>>
>>>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>>>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What about American citizens, born and raised on American soil, where
>>> some other language is the native tongue? Maybe we could require that
>>> one must be fluent in two languages, one of them English, in order to
>>> vote. That would cover that case.
>>
>>
>>
>> If they're born in the U.S., then the native tongue is ENGLISH.
> 
> 
> Porto Rico is US soil. Most people born there speak Spanish. Many, but
> not all, learn to speak English too. They are all American citizens by
> right of birth.

Puerto Rico?

I see the case you're referring to now. That's a special situation that
may warrant an exception, in my opinion. However, that really doesn't
change much of the intent of my comments.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Randy Yates wrote:

> Jerry Avins wrote:
   ...
>> Porto Rico ...
> 
> 
> Puerto Rico?

That's how it's spelled in Spanish. I chose the spelling of my 
ethnocentric youth in New York City in the 40s. Strange, going back, no?

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Randy Yates wrote:

> Paul Russell wrote:
> 
>> Randy Yates wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>>
>>
>>
>> But that would mean that you would have to revoke the citizenship of 
>> both the POTUS and the Governator of Collyfornia.
> 
> 
> The "POTUS"???
> 
> Arnold has a big accent. That's OK. So did my grandfather.
> But damn it, they both speak (or spoke) English here in this country.

Do you think either Dubya or Ahnold would meet your above criterion 
regarding 6th grade English though ? e.g. some examples from Dubya:

"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is 
underestimating."
--U.S. News & World Report, April 3, 2000

"Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning"
--Florence, SC, Jan. 11, 2000

"Actually, I -- this may sound a little West Texan to you, but I like 
it. When I'm talking about -- when I'm talking about myself, and when 
he's talking about myself, all of us are talking about me."
--Hardball, MSNBC, May 31, 2000

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."
--Reuters, May 5, 2000

"I think we agree, the past is over."
--On his meeting with John McCain, Dallas Morning News, May 10, 2000

"Laura and I really don't realize how bright our children is sometime 
until we get an objective analysis."
--Meet the Press, April 15, 2000

"I was raised in the West. The west of Texas. It's pretty close to 
California. In more ways than Washington, D.C., is close to California."
--Los Angeles Times, April 8, 2000

"We want our teachers to be trained so they can meet the obligations; 
their obligations as teachers. We want them to know how to teach the 
science of reading. In order to make sure there's not this kind of 
federal cufflink."--Fritsche Middle School, Milwaukee, March 30, 2000

"The fact that he relies on facts -- says things that are not factual -- 
are going to undermine his campaign."
--New York Times, March 4, 2000

"It is not Reaganesque to support a tax plan that is Clinton in nature."
--Los Angeles, Feb. 23, 2000

"I understand small business growth. I was one."
--New York Daily News, Feb. 19, 2000

"How do you know if you don't measure if you have a system that simply 
suckles kids through?"
--Explaining the need for educational accountability, Beaufort, 
S.C.,Feb.16, 2000

"The senator has got to understand if he's going to have he can't have 
it both ways. He can't take the high horse and then claim the low road."
--To reporters in Florence, S.C., Feb. 17, 2000

"If you're sick and tired of the politics of cynicism and polls and 
principles, come and join this campaign."
--Hilton Head, S.C., Feb. 16, 2000

"We ought to make the pie higher."
--South Carolina Republican Debate, Feb. 15, 2000

"I've changed my style somewhat, as you know. I'm less, I pontificate 
less, although it may be hard to tell it from this show. And I'm more 
interacting with people."
--Meet The Press, Feb. 13, 2000

"I think we need not only to eliminate the tollbooth to the middle 
class, I think we should knock down the tollbooth."
--Nashua, N.H., as quoted by Gail Collins, New York Times, Feb. 1, 2000

"The most important job is not to be governor, or first lady in my case."
--Pella, Iowa, as quoted in the San Antonio Express News, Jan. 30, 2000"

"This is Preservation Month. I appreciate preservation. It's what you do 
when you run for president. You gotta preserve."
--Speaking during Perseverance Month at Fairgrounds Elementary School in 
Nashua, N.H.

On 9 Jan 2004 06:47:18 -0800, avoidingspam2001@yahoo.com (Ken Asbury)
wrote:

  Rune wrote
>> 
>> Of course. Then we are talking about linguistic biology: How to 
>> talk a girl into reproducing with you.
>> 
>> Rune
>
>Rune, 
>
>It's embarrassing enough that you're better in (at least) 2 
>languages than I am in my only one, but you needn't rub it 
>in by being funnier, too.
>
>Ken

Hi Ken,
  I agree completely!!

[-Rick-]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:33:48 GMT, Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote:

>Jerry Avins wrote:
>> Randy Yates wrote:
>> 
>>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>
>>>> Randy Yates wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   ...
>>>>
>>>>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>>>>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What about American citizens, born and raised on American soil, where
>>>> some other language is the native tongue? Maybe we could require that
>>>> one must be fluent in two languages, one of them English, in order to
>>>> vote. That would cover that case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If they're born in the U.S., then the native tongue is ENGLISH.
>> 
>> 
>> Porto Rico is US soil. Most people born there speak Spanish. Many, but
>> not all, learn to speak English too. They are all American citizens by
>> right of birth.
>
>Puerto Rico?
>
>I see the case you're referring to now. That's a special situation that
>may warrant an exception, in my opinion. However, that really doesn't
>change much of the intent of my comments.

Puerto Rico is 3rd-world.
Who cares what they speak in Puerto Rico?
Puerto Rico is not the United States.
They're free to speak whatever they want.
Puerto Rico is the "appendix" (medically-speaking)
ofthe U.S.

I care what language people in New York, Ohio, 
Nebraska, California, etc., speak.

As for accents, the filthy liberals would crucify 
me if I critize some Hispanic's accent, but they 
make fun of Arnold Schwartzenegger's accent.
(That's because Arnold does not have the 
"correct" skin color.)

Never forget, ... liberalism is a sickness.
Cure liberalism first, cancer second.
[-Rick-]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:52:47 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
wrote:

>Randy Yates wrote:
>
>> Paul Russell wrote:
>> 
>>> Randy Yates wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
>>>> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But that would mean that you would have to revoke the citizenship of 
>>> both the POTUS and the Governator of Collyfornia.
>> 
>> 
>> The "POTUS"???
>> 
>> Arnold has a big accent. That's OK. So did my grandfather.
>> But damn it, they both speak (or spoke) English here in this country.
>
>Do you think either Dubya or Ahnold would meet your above criterion 
>regarding 6th grade English though ? e.g. some examples from Dubya:
>

George Dubya's a politician.
Which means we should consider him a lying, 
self-serving, disconnected-from-real-life,  
traitorous, thief.

Arnold is *NOT* a politician.

Paul, I imagine that because Arnold has white skin, 
you hate him.  I only ask that you wait a while 
and see if he's able to improve the the conditions 
for all brown, yellow, and white-skinned people 
in California.  Let's give him a chance and 
see what happens.

[-Rick-]

Rick Lyons wrote:
> 
> George Dubya's a politician.
> Which means we should consider him a lying, 
> self-serving, disconnected-from-real-life,  
> traitorous, thief.
> 

That sounds about right.

> Arnold is *NOT* a politician.
> 

Isn't he morphing into one right now ?

> Paul, I imagine that because Arnold has white skin, 
> you hate him.

Whoa ! Where did /that/ come from ?

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Ahnold, particularly his Nazi 
affiliations and his right wing political views, but why would the fact 
the fact that he's white make any difference ?

> I only ask that you wait a while 
> and see if he's able to improve the the conditions 
> for all brown, yellow, and white-skinned people 
> in California.  Let's give him a chance and 
> see what happens.
> 

If he can sort out the economic mess in CA that his buddies in 
Washington and Texas caused then that will indeed be quite a feat.

Being unable even to vote (taxation without representation - nice one !) 
I have no choice but to wait and see what happens. At least until 
October, anyway - if The Shrub weasels his way to a second term (and it 
really looks like he might) then I'm outta here.

Paul

Paul Russell wrote:
> 
> if The Shrub weasels his way to a second term (and it
> really looks like he might) then I'm outta here.
> 

I'm considering the same option if I can get it.  His first
treasury secretary said in an interview just recently that
the Shrub "was so disengaged during cabinet meetings it was
like having a blind man in a room full of deaf people."

If things should start to get shakey I wonder if Cheney will
dump him.


Bob
-- 

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

Paul Russell wrote:

>> Paul Russell wrote:
   ...
>>
>>
>>
>> The "POTUS"???
>>
>> Arnold has a big accent. That's OK. So did my grandfather.
>> But damn it, they both speak (or spoke) English here in this country.
> 
> 
> Do you think either Dubya or Ahnold would meet your above criterion 
> regarding 6th grade English though ? e.g. some examples from Dubya:
> 
[snip wondrous illiteracies]

You left out one of the better ones (about the trade deficit): "Most 
imports come from other countries."

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Rick Lyons wrote:

   ...
> 
> Puerto Rico is 3rd-world.
> Who cares what they speak in Puerto Rico?
> Puerto Rico is not the United States.
> They're free to speak whatever they want.
> Puerto Rico is the "appendix" (medically-speaking)
> ofthe U.S.

As you wish. Just remember that with a ticket to any state on the
mainland or Hawaii and a few month's residence, those born there can
vote for President, whether they've learned English or not. They're born
citizens.

> I care what language people in New York, Ohio, 
> Nebraska, California, etc., speak.
> 
> As for accents, the filthy liberals would crucify 
> me if I critize some Hispanic's accent, but they 
> make fun of Arnold Schwartzenegger's accent.
> (That's because Arnold does not have the 
> "correct" skin color.)

Rick, you do me dirt. I never ridiculed Schwartzenegger's or anyone
else's accent. You yourself said that that someone who speaks English
with an accent knows at least one more language than you do, and you
admire that. Me too. On the other hand, when my mother and father had
been in this country much less time than Schwartzenegger (the one from
France, the other from Russia), they had lost all trace of foreign
accent (according to people who knew them before I was born). Many
foreign born celebrities work hard to keep their accents (the Gabor
sisters had none when they thought no one was listening) so people like
us will admire them. That's a con job, if you ask me.
> 
> Never forget, ... liberalism is a sickness.
> Cure liberalism first, cancer second.

Get over it. It may be a stinkin' liberal doctor who cures your cancer!

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Bob Cain wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm considering the same option if I can get it.  His first
> treasury secretary said in an interview just recently that
> the Shrub "was so disengaged during cabinet meetings it was
> like having a blind man in a room full of deaf people."
> 

It's like Reagan all over again, only worse. My only option is to return 
to the UK (aka Airstrip One), which is not much better now that Blair 
has become The Shrub's poodle. Given a choice I think I'd move to 
Canada, Australia or New Zealand (or maybe even France ;-)).

> If things should start to get shakey I wonder if Cheney will
> dump him.
> 

Would Cheney be better or worse ? He's certainly a lot smarter (it would 
be hard to be otherwise !) but he's also ruthless and self-serving, so 
I'm guessing it would be "business as usual" (in more ways than one) ?

Paul

Jerry Avins wrote:

> 
> You left out one of the better ones (about the trade deficit): "Most 
> imports come from other countries."
> 

Thanks Jerry - that is a classic - I'll add it to my ever-growing Dubya 
quotes file.

Paul

r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote in message news:<3ffe3678.73239656@news.west.earthlink.net>...
> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:59:32 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
> wrote:
> 
> >Rick Lyons wrote:
> >> 
> >> With a driver's license you can rent a car, 
> >> get plane tickets, buy guns, and *VOTE*.
> >> 
> >
> >You're getting confused between a driver's license and citizenship.
> >
> >e.g. as an H1B here in CA I have a CA driver's license but I can neither 
> >buy guns nor vote, since I am not a US citizen.
> >
> >Paul
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
>   Last year I went to take the test to qualify 
> myself to buy a handgun, in Placer County California,
> and all I needed was my Driver's License.

Then you can report to ATF for this store.

By laws, only U.S. citizens can buy handgun.  Not H1B visa holders,
not even permanent residents (those with green cards).  I think this
law was there before 911, and after 911 you can rest assured the law
will be enforced more strictly.

And next time if you buy a 6-pack of Budweiser when the clerk did not
ask you for ID, please do not conclude that anyone can buy Budweiser
without showing ID.

> As for voting, the situation is changing all the 
> time.
> We'll see what happens in the coming months.

I think you confused "voter registration (at Department of Motor
Vehicles)" with "driver license".

In DSP field perhaps you know a lot.  Outside DSP I recommend you to
learn more.

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<RsALb.309$i4.212@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Jerry Avins wrote:
> 
> > Randy Yates wrote:
> > 
> >   ...
> > 
> > What about American citizens, born and raised on American soil, where
> > some other language is the native tongue? Maybe we could require that
> > one must be fluent in two languages, one of them English, in order to
> > vote. That would cover that case.
> 
> If they're born in the U.S., then the native tongue is ENGLISH.

Do you think your argument applies to *EVERY* corner of Alaska and
Hawaii?

I also need to check what language is used in Navajo Nations in
Arizona (the region around Grand Canyon National Park).

In DSP field perhaps you know a lot.  Outside DSP I recommend you to
learn more.

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<vUeJb.4926$6B.392@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Rick Lyons wrote:
>  > [...]
> > Do we want citizens of a another country voting 
> > in our elections?
> 
> No.
> 
> We also need to make the ability to speak and write English to
> at least a 6th grade level a prerequisite for U.S. citizenship.

Very good suggestion.

Before you write to your senator Elizabeth Dole to amend the current
law on citizenship and naturalization, make sure you considered the
following cases:
(1) A 3-year-old boy cannot be naturalized as a U.S. citizen
    because he does not possess a 6th grade level English
    capability.
(2) A man with both arms amputated during an accident will not
    be eligible for naturalization because he cannot write.
(3) Helen Keller would not be eligible for naturalization if
    she were not a U.S. citizen when born because she could
    not read.
(4) Tom Cruise and Thomas Edison were probably ineligible for
    naturalization (if they were not born U.S. citizens) because
    of their dyslexia.

Make sure your proposed citizenship law and laws on
anti-discrimination on disablity do not contradict with each other.

> We need to make it a law that anyone who works in the U.S. must
> be able to speak English to some minimal level.

Good suggestion.  That way when Yao Ming from China arrives in Houston
to play for Rockets, he needs to take a TOEFL test.  When New York
Yankee signed Hideki Matsui and when Seattle Mariners signed Ichiro
Suzuki, they need to take GRE tests too.

> We need to stop
> pandering to the lazy leaches that come into this country and
> expect us to educate them in their language.

In DSP field perhaps you know a lot.  Outside DSP I recommend you to
learn more.

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:37:27 -0500, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:

  (snipped)
>> 
>> As for accents, the filthy liberals would crucify 
>> me if I critize some Hispanic's accent, but they 
>> make fun of Arnold Schwartzenegger's accent.
>> (That's because Arnold does not have the 
>> "correct" skin color.)
>
>Rick, you do me dirt. I never ridiculed Schwartzenegger's or anyone
>else's accent. 

Oh no.  I wasn't referring to you Jer.
I know you'd never ridicule someone's accent.
You're, and I, are above that.

>You yourself said that that someone who speaks English
>with an accent knows at least one more language than you do, and you
>admire that. Me too. 

You bet!!  (I wish I *had* an accent.)

[-Rick-]

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:25:54 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
wrote:

>Rick Lyons wrote:
>> 
>> George Dubya's a politician.
>> Which means we should consider him a lying, 
>> self-serving, disconnected-from-real-life,  
>> traitorous, thief.
>> 
>
>That sounds about right.
>
>> Arnold is *NOT* a politician.
>> 
>
>Isn't he morphing into one right now ?

Whew!  I sure hope not.
>
>> Paul, I imagine that because Arnold has white skin, 
>> you hate him.
>
>Whoa ! Where did /that/ come from ?
>
>There are plenty of reasons to dislike Ahnold, particularly his Nazi 
>affiliations and his right wing political views, but why would the fact 
>the fact that he's white make any difference ?

Nazi affiliations!!!  You're joking, right?

>> I only ask that you wait a while 
>> and see if he's able to improve the the conditions 
>> for all brown, yellow, and white-skinned people 
>> in California.  Let's give him a chance and 
>> see what happens.
>> 
>
>If he can sort out the economic mess in CA that his buddies in 
>Washington and Texas caused then that will indeed be quite a feat.

I have my fingers crossed.

>Being unable even to vote (taxation without representation - nice one !) 
>I have no choice but to wait and see what happens. At least until 
>October, anyway - if The Shrub weasels his way to a second term (and it 
>really looks like he might) then I'm outta here.

I know how you feel.  But if you do stay in the 
States, you're gonna have to take Spanish language 
lessons.

[-Rick-]

On 9 Jan 2004 21:49:52 -0800, alaskanmalamute@hotmail.com (Siberian
Husky) wrote:

>r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote in message news:<3ffe3678.73239656@news.west.earthlink.net>...
>> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:59:32 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Rick Lyons wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> With a driver's license you can rent a car, 
>> >> get plane tickets, buy guns, and *VOTE*.
>> >> 
>> >
>> >You're getting confused between a driver's license and citizenship.
>> >
>> >e.g. as an H1B here in CA I have a CA driver's license but I can neither 
>> >buy guns nor vote, since I am not a US citizen.
>> >
>> >Paul
>> 
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>>   Last year I went to take the test to qualify 
>> myself to buy a handgun, in Placer County California,
>> and all I needed was my Driver's License.
>
>Then you can report to ATF for this store.
>
>By laws, only U.S. citizens can buy handgun.  Not H1B visa holders,
>not even permanent residents (those with green cards).  I think this
>law was there before 911, and after 911 you can rest assured the law
>will be enforced more strictly.
>
>And next time if you buy a 6-pack of Budweiser when the clerk did not
>ask you for ID, please do not conclude that anyone can buy Budweiser
>without showing ID.
>
>> As for voting, the situation is changing all the 
>> time.
>> We'll see what happens in the coming months.
>
>I think you confused "voter registration (at Department of Motor
>Vehicles)" with "driver license".

Hi Siberian,

  The deal with the California Driver's license 
is that if illegal immigrants had licences, then 
they would automatically be eligible to register to
vote.  THAT'S WHY THE DEMOCRATS PUSHED FOR 
THE LICENSES!  Please know that the California 
state Democratic politicains do *not* care one bit what 
happens to illegal immigrants.  The politicians 
don't care if the illegals have jobs, food, cars, 
etc.  All the politicians care about is getting 
re-elected.

>In DSP field perhaps you know a lot.  

Well, if you're being kind, I'll say that 
I don't know nearly as much as I should.

>Outside DSP I recommend you to learn more.

I agree with that.
Would you like to learn something Siberian?

Last year I went into a Pennys department store 
in Mt. View California (30 miles south of 
San Francisco).  I wanted to buy a bathrobe.
There were two male sales clerks there in the Men's 
department.  I asked them where I could find the 
bathrobes.  *Neither* guy spoke English!! 
I swear on my Mother's grave, that's the truth.
As I tried to handwave and pantomime in order to 
make these guys understand what I was looking for, 
a female Hispanic customer saw my problem.
She asked the guys in Spanish where are the bathrobes, 
and she translated their response to me in English.  
They didn't carry bathrobes!!

I don't expect stores in Mexico to have English-speaking 
employees.  But I do expect stores in the United States 
to have English-speaking employees.

I remember being in a drug store just south of 
Mountain View CA buying some toothpaste.  The cashier 
over-charged me.  She did not speak English (!!) so 
I had to wait for the manager to get off the phone and 
come down from his office to correct the over-charge.

No healthy society can progress when it's citizens 
cannot communicate.  And in the name of Sweet 
Merciful Jesus in Heaven, don't tell me I should  
learn to speak Spanish!!!

[-Rick-]

Rick Lyons wrote:
 > [...]
> Last year I went into a Pennys department store 
> in Mt. View California (30 miles south of 
> San Francisco).  I wanted to buy a bathrobe.
> There were two male sales clerks there in the Men's 
> department.  I asked them where I could find the 
> bathrobes.  *Neither* guy spoke English!! 
> I swear on my Mother's grave, that's the truth.
> As I tried to handwave and pantomime in order to 
> make these guys understand what I was looking for, 
> a female Hispanic customer saw my problem.
> She asked the guys in Spanish where are the bathrobes, 
> and she translated their response to me in English.  
> They didn't carry bathrobes!!
> 
> I don't expect stores in Mexico to have English-speaking 
> employees.  But I do expect stores in the United States 
> to have English-speaking employees.
> 
> I remember being in a drug store just south of 
> Mountain View CA buying some toothpaste.  The cashier 
> over-charged me.  She did not speak English (!!) so 
> I had to wait for the manager to get off the phone and 
> come down from his office to correct the over-charge.

I have had a couple of similar situations right here in
good ole' North Carolina (at burger joints).

Call me "intolerant," but I *HATE* having to answer
"English or Spanish?" everytime I use an ATM machine,
card machine at the grocery checkout, or automated
telephone system. There should be no choice - this
is the U.S.A.

If we don't stem this problem now, it's going to overtake us.

> 
> No healthy society can progress when it's citizens 
> cannot communicate.  And in the name of Sweet 
> Merciful Jesus in Heaven, don't tell me I should  
> learn to speak Spanish!!!

Seems like common sense to me. I think others know it
too, as the lack of responses to my adjacent post
in which I stated:

   Why don't we also go ahead and build two roads where one is sufficient
   everywhere in the U.S. and ask everyone to travel both of them for
   every trip they take to work? This makes as much sense as encouraging
   two languages in one country.

would seem to indicate.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Rick Lyons wrote:

> 
> Last year I went into a Pennys department store
> in Mt. View California (30 miles south of
> San Francisco).  I wanted to buy a bathrobe.
> There were two male sales clerks there in the Men's
> department.  I asked them where I could find the
> bathrobes.  *Neither* guy spoke English!!
> I swear on my Mother's grave, that's the truth.
> As I tried to handwave and pantomime in order to
> make these guys understand what I was looking for,
> a female Hispanic customer saw my problem.
> She asked the guys in Spanish where are the bathrobes,
> and she translated their response to me in English.
> They didn't carry bathrobes!!

Man you really are an ignorant fool. Who would you have arrested for
this crime against humanity - the clerks or the ownwer who hired them?
What the hell makes you think you or socirty has the right to dictate to
someone how they run their store. Jeez, compared to you the Taliban seem
enlightened.


> 
> I don't expect stores in Mexico to have English-speaking
> employees.  But I do expect stores in the United States
> to have English-speaking employees.

Why? What legal or moral basis do you have for this expectation. At
Least the Taliban has the Koran - What have you got besides your
delusions.

> 
> I remember being in a drug store just south of
> Mountain View CA buying some toothpaste.  The cashier
> over-charged me.  She did not speak English (!!) so
> I had to wait for the manager to get off the phone and
> come down from his office to correct the over-charge.
> 
> No healthy society can progress when it's citizens
> cannot communicate.  

You haven't demonstrated any harm to society or any desire to
communicate. Your just babbling nonsense.

>And in the name of Sweet
> Merciful Jesus in Heaven, don't tell me I should
> learn to speak Spanish!!!

No but you really should educate yourself on the moral and legal
princeples on which the country that you choose to live in was founded.

-jim


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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Rick Lyons wrote:

   ...

> Hi Siberian,
> 
>   The deal with the California Driver's license 
> is that if illegal immigrants had licences, then 
> they would automatically be eligible to register to
> vote.  

They are not legally allowed to register, I don't know the penalty for 
illegal registration, but the penalty for illegal voting can be severe. 
(Art Linkletter, a white celebrity from Canada, got a slap on the wrist. 
I guess the authorities thought he looked Hispanic.) If a flawed system 
requires only a driver's license for voting or buying a gun, which makes 
more sense: fixing the system, or not allowing non-citizens to drive?

   ...

> Last year I went into a Pennys department store 
> in Mt. View California (30 miles south of 
> San Francisco).  I wanted to buy a bathrobe.
> There were two male sales clerks there in the Men's 
> department.  I asked them where I could find the 
> bathrobes.  *Neither* guy spoke English!! 
> I swear on my Mother's grave, that's the truth.
> As I tried to handwave and pantomime in order to 
> make these guys understand what I was looking for, 
> a female Hispanic customer saw my problem.
> She asked the guys in Spanish where are the bathrobes, 
> and she translated their response to me in English.  
> They didn't carry bathrobes!!

Maybe if the store did carry bathrobes, the clerks would have known the 
word. I have been in stores in New York where no one spoke English. The 
languages there were, on various occasions, Italian, Chinese, Yiddish, 
and Italian. The two Italian owners of the vegetable market in my 
neighborhood in The Bronx moved their store from the Lower East Side. 
They arrived knowing Yiddish, which they had had to learn in their 
former location. I shopped for and got what parts I needed in a 
French-only hardware store in a rural Quebec Province and in a bicycle 
store in Haifa, for example. The "trick", in the DSPguru sense, is not 
assuming that anybody owes you something.

> I don't expect stores in Mexico to have English-speaking 
> employees.  But I do expect stores in the United States 
> to have English-speaking employees.

Why? What does a private business owe you? I expect stores to be able to
serve the greatest number of potential customers at least expense for
labor. That's good business, capitalism, the American Way. I do expect
all government agencies to have English-speaking employees, and in
places where there are lots of, say, Basque immigrants, someone who can
serve them too. For a while, my sister was the only Spanish-speaking
pediatrician in Houston. That's deplorable!

> I remember being in a drug store just south of 
> Mountain View CA buying some toothpaste.  The cashier 
> over-charged me.  She did not speak English (!!) so 
> I had to wait for the manager to get off the phone and 
> come down from his office to correct the over-charge.

So don't bo back there. Or just leave the tooth paste on the counter and
walk out.

> No healthy society can progress when it's citizens 
> cannot communicate.  And in the name of Sweet 
> Merciful Jesus in Heaven, don't tell me I should  
> learn to speak Spanish!!!

There's no "should" about it, but it could be fun. Back in 1947, I had a
buddy who became fluent in Lithuanian. It turned out that he had a
Lithuanian girlfriend who taught it -- and other things -- to him. It
can work the same with Spanish!

A Mexican couple cleans house for me (Green card: OK). They speak
English now a lot better than when they started, and I know a little 
more Spanish. I'm teaching the wife to make some of my dishes she 
likes. (They often have lunch here and she supplies me with Mexican
delicacies.) Their two boys speak as if they were born here, even
though, back when they served as their mother's translators, they had
noticeable accents. They are sharp kids who read a lot in English and
Spanish. They went ape when they saw I had a microscope they could use.
When I saw that their interest was sustained, I bought another on eBay,
refurbished it, and gave it to them. The younger asks me questions about
cell biology that I have to hit the books to answer. (He's damn good
with stains.) Wait till he gets to high school! You would have them in a
hovel without electricity, somewhere in Sonoma. What a loss!

Jerry
-- 
"I view the progress of science as ... the slow erosion of the
  tendency to dichotomize."                    Barbara Smuts, U. Mich.
���������������������������������������������������������������������

Randy Yates wrote:

   ...

> Call me "intolerant," but I *HATE* having to answer
> "English or Spanish?" everytime I use an ATM machine,
> card machine at the grocery checkout, or automated
> telephone system. There should be no choice - this
> is the U.S.A.
> 
> If we don't stem this problem now, it's going to overtake us.

For any other language, I agree. But the PC "Puerto Rico" or the old
"Porto Rico" is part of the good ol' U S of A, and a lot of US citizens
who live there don't speak English. Our conquests in the Spanish-
American War made us a bilingual country. It happened: get used to it.

Jerry
-- 
"I view the progress of science as ... the slow erosion of the
  tendency to dichotomize."                    Barbara Smuts, U. Mich.
���������������������������������������������������������������������

Rick Lyons wrote:
>>
>>There are plenty of reasons to dislike Ahnold, particularly his Nazi 
>>affiliations and his right wing political views, but why would the fact 
>>the fact that he's white make any difference ?
> 
> 
> Nazi affiliations!!!  You're joking, right?
> 
> 

No joke, e.g. Kurt Waldheim.

Paul

Rick Lyons wrote:
> 
>   The deal with the California Driver's license 
> is that if illegal immigrants had licences, then 
> they would automatically be eligible to register to
> vote.  THAT'S WHY THE DEMOCRATS PUSHED FOR 
> THE LICENSES! 

Rick - this is simply not true. *I* have a CA driver's license (and a 
SSN for that matter) and I am not entitled to vote. I also can't do jury 
duty, or buy guns, or any of the many things that require US 
citizenship. Try not to confuse driver's licenses with citizenship - 
they are two entirely different things.

Paul

jim wrote:
> [...]
> Rick Lyons wrote:
>>I don't expect stores in Mexico to have English-speaking
>>employees.  But I do expect stores in the United States
>>to have English-speaking employees.
> 
> 
> Why? What legal or moral basis do you have for this expectation. 

The use of two languages doesn't make sense. There's a
*rational basis* for this. This is the truth and it is
simply not going to change.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Jerry Avins wrote:

> Randy Yates wrote:
> 
>   ...
> 
>> Call me "intolerant," but I *HATE* having to answer
>> "English or Spanish?" everytime I use an ATM machine,
>> card machine at the grocery checkout, or automated
>> telephone system. There should be no choice - this
>> is the U.S.A.
>>
>> If we don't stem this problem now, it's going to overtake us.
> 
> 
> For any other language, I agree. But the PC "Puerto Rico" or the old
> "Porto Rico" is part of the good ol' U S of A, and a lot of US citizens
> who live there don't speak English.

How about if I simply modify my statement to "We should require
any U.S. citizen that resides in one of the 50 states to speak
English."? Done - problem solved.

And Jerry, if we following your logic through consistently, then
any new culture we "assimilate" will require us to provide things
in their language? I can just see it now: "Press 1 for Spanish,
2 for French, 3 for German, and 4 for Nazi right-wing liberalese"

Tell me you're joking.

> Our conquests in the Spanish-
> American War made us a bilingual country. 

That's right, *we* won the war, and therefore *we* have the right to
dictate the language, EVEN in Puerto Rico, if we desired.

In case anyone is confused about my position, I am simply saying
that, for common-sense reasons, we should make English the official
language of this nation (at least within the domain of the borders
of the 50 states). I am NOT saying I hate spanish people or chinese
people or anyone else, because I certainly do not. I am 25 percent
Cyprian Greek ancestrally. I would be hating myself (and I do not).
What I hate is the irrationality of allowing another language to creep
into the U.S.A. (or at least the 50 states thereof).
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote in message news:<40000897.14672593@news.west.earthlink.net>...
> On 9 Jan 2004 21:49:52 -0800, alaskanmalamute@hotmail.com (Siberian
> Husky) wrote:
> 
> >r.lyons@REMOVE.ieee.org (Rick Lyons) wrote in message news:<3ffe3678.73239656@news.west.earthlink.net>...
> >>   Last year I went to take the test to qualify 
> >> myself to buy a handgun, in Placer County California,
> >> and all I needed was my Driver's License.
> >
> >Then you can report to ATF for this store.
> >
> >By laws, only U.S. citizens can buy handgun.  Not H1B visa holders,
> >not even permanent residents (those with green cards).  I think this
> >law was there before 911, and after 911 you can rest assured the law
> >will be enforced more strictly.
> >
> >And next time if you buy a 6-pack of Budweiser when the clerk did not
> >ask you for ID, please do not conclude that anyone can buy Budweiser
> >without showing ID.
> >
> >> As for voting, the situation is changing all the 
> >> time.
> >> We'll see what happens in the coming months.
> >
> >I think you confused "voter registration (at Department of Motor
> >Vehicles)" with "driver license".
> 
> Hi Siberian,
> 
>   The deal with the California Driver's license 
> is that if illegal immigrants had licences, then 
> they would automatically be eligible to register to
> vote.

I don't think so.  I have to admit I have never taken a look over the
form (because I do not intend to register -- and I am not a U.S.
citizen), but I do not think non-U.S. citizens are eligible to vote.

If you have any doubts, take a look in
    http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/votereg1.html
and the No. 1 eligibility for register to vote in California is, you
need to be a U.S. citizen.  Do you want me to check the other 49
states for you?

Take jury duty for example, for which I do receive, about once or
twice a year, a summon from the courts.  I always send back the reply,
marking that I am not a U.S. citizen -- and I am not eligible for jury
duty.

I spent many years in Los Angeles County and Santa Barbara County (ya,
the best known county after Michael Jackson's charge, Ben and
Jennifer's failed marriage, and so on).  I could know California
better than you do for the whole state.

> THAT'S WHY THE DEMOCRATS PUSHED FOR 
> THE LICENSES!  Please know that the California 
> state Democratic politicains do *not* care one bit what 
> happens to illegal immigrants.  The politicians 
> don't care if the illegals have jobs, food, cars, 
> etc.  All the politicians care about is getting 
> re-elected.

Which politicians do not care about getting re-elected?  If they do
not care about this, they are statesman, not politicians.

But please stop spreading the rumor (I feel reluctant to call your
words "lies") that illegal immigrants can vote in California.

> >In DSP field perhaps you know a lot.  
> 
> Well, if you're being kind, I'll say that 
> I don't know nearly as much as I should.
> 
> >Outside DSP I recommend you to learn more.
> 
> I agree with that.
> Would you like to learn something Siberian?

You want me to learn Russian?  No.  Both Siberian Husky (mascot of
University of Washington) and Alaskan Malamute understand howls.

> Last year I went into a Pennys department store 
> in Mt. View California (30 miles south of 
> San Francisco).  I wanted to buy a bathrobe.
> There were two male sales clerks there in the Men's 
> department.  I asked them where I could find the 
> bathrobes.  *Neither* guy spoke English!! 
> I swear on my Mother's grave, that's the truth.
> As I tried to handwave and pantomime in order to 
> make these guys understand what I was looking for, 
> a female Hispanic customer saw my problem.
> She asked the guys in Spanish where are the bathrobes, 
> and she translated their response to me in English.  
> They didn't carry bathrobes!!

Pity you.

But as someone else pointed out, this is a private department store. 
If you do not like their clerks not being able to speak English, do
not patron there.  Please do not tell me this Pennys is the only
department store in Mountain View.  No Target, no Wal Mart nor KMart
nearby?  I do not believe it and please do not second guess that I
have never been to Bay Area.

> I don't expect stores in Mexico to have English-speaking 
> employees.  But I do expect stores in the United States 
> to have English-speaking employees.

You have the right to expect so -- unfortunately, if they do not live
up to your expectation, the only choice of yours is stop visiting
them.  For a privately-owned store or company, you do not have the
right to tell them what language they should speak.

You can write to their management that if their employees do not speak
English, they lose a big chunk of customers; if their employees do not
speak Spanish, they lose another chunk of customers.  However, if they
do not care losing money, sorry, you can move to Nevada.

> I remember being in a drug store just south of 
> Mountain View CA buying some toothpaste.  The cashier 
> over-charged me.  She did not speak English (!!) so 
> I had to wait for the manager to get off the phone and 
> come down from his office to correct the over-charge.

Pity you.

But now you meet a rude English-speaking cashier who knows every word
you say but denies over-charging you.  What can you do?  The same as
above.

So the problem is not the language.  It is their service attitude (not
able to communicate with the customer in a language the customer is
happy about is a problem of the service attitude).

> No healthy society can progress when it's citizens 
> cannot communicate.  And in the name of Sweet 
> Merciful Jesus in Heaven, don't tell me I should  
> learn to speak Spanish!!!

You do not have to learn Spanish at all.  Nobody can force you that. 
However, if most people around you speak Spanish, your only option is
move -- because you cannot tell them what language they should speak.

Now buy a bumper sticker "I Only Buy at English-Speaking Stores!" and
request your neighbors to do the same.  If they agree to your point,
you can make department stores in Mountain View hiring
English-speaking cashiers.  On the other hand, if your neighbors start
to look at you like some images sent back from Beagle 1, then it is
time for you to move to Nevada.

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<2TULb.1386$q4.803@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Rick Lyons wrote:
>  > [...]
> > Last year I went into a Pennys department store 
> > in Mt. View California (30 miles south of 
> > San Francisco).  I wanted to buy a bathrobe.
> > There were two male sales clerks there in the Men's 
> > department.  I asked them where I could find the 
> > bathrobes.  *Neither* guy spoke English!! 
> > I swear on my Mother's grave, that's the truth.
> > As I tried to handwave and pantomime in order to 
> > make these guys understand what I was looking for, 
> > a female Hispanic customer saw my problem.
> > She asked the guys in Spanish where are the bathrobes, 
> > and she translated their response to me in English.  
> > They didn't carry bathrobes!!
> > 
> > I don't expect stores in Mexico to have English-speaking 
> > employees.  But I do expect stores in the United States 
> > to have English-speaking employees.
> > 
> > I remember being in a drug store just south of 
> > Mountain View CA buying some toothpaste.  The cashier 
> > over-charged me.  She did not speak English (!!) so 
> > I had to wait for the manager to get off the phone and 
> > come down from his office to correct the over-charge.
> 
> I have had a couple of similar situations right here in
> good ole' North Carolina (at burger joints).

Then because of NAFTA I think you can move to Ontario in Canada.  I
assure you it is so difficult to meet another guy speaking Spanish
there.

(And if you start to realize you hate French equally well in Ontario,
then Alberta and British Columbia will embrace you)

> Call me "intolerant," but I *HATE* having to answer
> "English or Spanish?" everytime I use an ATM machine,
> card machine at the grocery checkout, or automated
> telephone system. There should be no choice - this
> is the U.S.A.

You do not have to choose -- isn't English the "default" choice if you
do not choose at all?

> If we don't stem this problem now, it's going to overtake us.

Probably not before we stop breathing.

> > No healthy society can progress when it's citizens 
> > cannot communicate.  And in the name of Sweet 
> > Merciful Jesus in Heaven, don't tell me I should  
> > learn to speak Spanish!!!
> 
> Seems like common sense to me. I think others know it
> too, as the lack of responses to my adjacent post
> in which I stated:
> 
>    Why don't we also go ahead and build two roads where one is sufficient
>    everywhere in the U.S. and ask everyone to travel both of them for
>    every trip they take to work? This makes as much sense as encouraging
>    two languages in one country.

That is irrelevant.  Building two roads has costs doubled,
environmental impacts doubled, and people can CHOOSE one of them to go
instead like your insisting "they have to take both".

The choice between using English or Spanish in the U.S. is more like
the Intel Pentium 4 Hyperthreading Technology.  You do not pay double
costs, and you do not achieve doubled performances, but it boosts your
result.  On the other hand, if you turn off hyperthreading (and insist
to speak English only), you do not lose much either.

Now in North Carolina you can write a letter to California Governor
Arnold, that his "Hasta la vista, baby" in the movie "Terminator 2"
was a serious mistake -- it made speaking Spanish "cool" -- and you
can blame the director James Cameron (I think he also wrote the
script) for introducing the Spanish part.  Hey, Cameron comes from
Canada and this was a Canadian plot to put Spanish in the U.S.A.! 
Then, you can start urging politicians in North Carolina to be an
"English Only" state and suppressing all other languages (that is,
Spanish) in department stores, ATM machines, and so on.  Taco Bell has
to be renamed in North Carolina because "Taco" is not English.

You can also make it illegal to have automobiles with both miles and
kilometers in their odometers, in North Carolina.

Americans in other states will love North Carolina afterwards, and you
will enjoy it.  Have fun.

At the same time Rick Lyons will push to rename many California cities
to get rid of Spanish.  San Jose?  No, in English it should be San
Hose.  That is Rick's start.

Randy Yates wrote:

> Jerry Avins wrote:
> 
>> Randy Yates wrote:
>>
>>   ...
>>
>>> Call me "intolerant," but I *HATE* having to answer
>>> "English or Spanish?" everytime I use an ATM machine,
>>> card machine at the grocery checkout, or automated
>>> telephone system. There should be no choice - this
>>> is the U.S.A.
>>>
>>> If we don't stem this problem now, it's going to overtake us.
>>
>>
>>
>> For any other language, I agree. But the PC "Puerto Rico" or the old
>> "Porto Rico" is part of the good ol' U S of A, and a lot of US citizens
>> who live there don't speak English.
> 
> 
> How about if I simply modify my statement to "We should require
> any U.S. citizen that resides in one of the 50 states to speak
> English."? Done - problem solved.

That's OK provided we give them a grace period. US citizens are free to
relocate anywhere in the country at any time. I t would be unreasonable
to require you to become fluent in Spanish _before_ you take that
promotion that lands you in Puerto Rico. You ought to get a reasonable
time _after_ you get there.
> 
> And Jerry, if we following your logic through consistently, then
> any new culture we "assimilate" will require us to provide things
> in their language? I can just see it now: "Press 1 for Spanish,
> 2 for French, 3 for German, and 4 for Nazi right-wing liberalese"

If we have any brains as a nation, or any collective memory of history,
we will never again annex territory where the natives don't speak
English or Spanish. If, for example, Dubya were stupid enough to declare
Iraq US territory and its residents US citizens, then Arabic would
become the third US official language. That's not to say that we would
have to learn it, but it would have to be on official documents. Let's
hope it never happens.

> Tell me you're joking.

I assumed that you were, with the Nazi bit.

>> Our conquests in the Spanish-
>> American War made us a bilingual country. 
> 
> 
> That's right, *we* won the war, and therefore *we* have the right to
> dictate the language, EVEN in Puerto Rico, if we desired.

But we claim to believe in fairness, and that constrains some of what we
can do.
> 
> In case anyone is confused about my position, I am simply saying
> that, for common-sense reasons, we should make English the official
> language of this nation (at least within the domain of the borders
> of the 50 states). I am NOT saying I hate spanish people or chinese
> people or anyone else, because I certainly do not. I am 25 percent
> Cyprian Greek ancestrally. I would be hating myself (and I do not).
> What I hate is the irrationality of allowing another language to creep
> into the U.S.A. (or at least the 50 states thereof).

Languages creep in in all sorts of ways (you understand schnapps, ciao,
paisano, kibbitz, tortilla, and more), but creeping isn't the point.
When we, as a nation, bring a people under our wing by force (for their
own good, of course), their language rides -- it doesn't creep -- in
with them. We tried your approach on the Indian reservations. We had to
give it up as inhumane and counterproductive.

Jerry
-- 
"I view the progress of science as ... the slow erosion of the
  tendency to dichotomize."                    Barbara Smuts, U. Mich.
���������������������������������������������������������������������

Siberian Husky wrote:
> 
> You do not have to choose -- isn't English the "default" choice if you
> do not choose at all?

Not any more, at least in CA.  There is some simple question
asked at the start, like "do you want a receipt" in both
languages with answers in both.  Which one you chose selects
the language.

I've gotta admit that it annoys me to deal with people that
don't speak _my_ language but I've come to accept how
me-centric that really is.  The added cost of multiple
languages does begin to get sticky but I still think it
pretty me-centric to get all bent behind it.


Bob
-- 

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<f7YLb.1578$q4.176@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Jerry Avins wrote:
> 
> >> If we don't stem this problem now, it's going to overtake us.
> > 
> > 
> > For any other language, I agree. But the PC "Puerto Rico" or the old
> > "Porto Rico" is part of the good ol' U S of A, and a lot of US citizens
> > who live there don't speak English.
> 
> How about if I simply modify my statement to "We should require
> any U.S. citizen that resides in one of the 50 states to speak
> English."? Done - problem solved.

Tell us how far you believe the U.S. federal government's authority
is, to tell the people what language they should use in their homes,
with their friends, in the bar, in their workplaces, and so on.  If
you can push for this law to be enacted and enforced, the next step
will be "by U.S. laws, people cannot say f__k anywhere, in their
homes, in their cars or in the wilderness trails".

> (snip)
>
> That's right, *we* won the war, and therefore *we* have the right to
> dictate the language, EVEN in Puerto Rico, if we desired.

The problem is *we* do not have an official language or English-only
policy, so far.

> In case anyone is confused about my position, I am simply saying
> that, for common-sense reasons, we should make English the official
> language of this nation (at least within the domain of the borders
> of the 50 states). I am NOT saying I hate spanish people or chinese
> people or anyone else, because I certainly do not. I am 25 percent
> Cyprian Greek ancestrally. I would be hating myself (and I do not).
> What I hate is the irrationality of allowing another language to creep
> into the U.S.A. (or at least the 50 states thereof).

Making English the official language for the U.S.A.  That is fine.

But this will not solve the problem for Rick Lyons to buy something at
a department store where the cashiers do not speak English, because
"the department store" is not a location for official business.

This will not solve the problem for you to find annoying in North
Carolina that some people speaking Spanish is creeping into the
U.S.A., unless you work in a court, eat at the court restaurants and
live in the court dormitory so everywhere you are in belongs to the
"official" territory.

And one reminder for you -- even if the U.S. now has designated
English as the "official language", it does not stop a state, a county
or a city from designating both English, Spanish or French as its
"official languages".

Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<40007e45$0$6761$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>...
> Randy Yates wrote:
> 
> > How about if I simply modify my statement to "We should require
> > any U.S. citizen that resides in one of the 50 states to speak
> > English."? Done - problem solved.
> 
> That's OK provided we give them a grace period. US citizens are free to
> relocate anywhere in the country at any time. I t would be unreasonable
> to require you to become fluent in Spanish _before_ you take that
> promotion that lands you in Puerto Rico. You ought to get a reasonable
> time _after_ you get there.

I wonder what happens if Randy Yates successfully promoted enacting
the law, that any U.S. citizen residing in one of the 50 states is
required to speak English."

And then someone filing lawsuits on freedom of speech and go all the
way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

> > And Jerry, if we following your logic through consistently, then
> > any new culture we "assimilate" will require us to provide things
> > in their language? I can just see it now: "Press 1 for Spanish,
> > 2 for French, 3 for German, and 4 for Nazi right-wing liberalese"
> 
> If we have any brains as a nation, or any collective memory of history,
> we will never again annex territory where the natives don't speak
> English or Spanish. If, for example, Dubya were stupid enough to declare
> Iraq US territory and its residents US citizens, then Arabic would
> become the third US official language. That's not to say that we would
> have to learn it, but it would have to be on official documents. Let's
> hope it never happens.

The U.S. did not expand its territory purely based on conquering.

Since Randy Yates so deeply believes English is the mother tongue for
people in the 50 states, I wonder what he thinks about Alaska and
Louisiana.

In 1867 the United States purchased Alaska from Russia for $7.2
million dollars, abot 2 cents an acre.  So, is the mother tongue for
Alaska Aleutian, Russian, or English?

In 1803 the United States purchased Louisiana from France.  So, is the
mother tongue for Lousiana French, English, or some native American
language?

> > In case anyone is confused about my position, I am simply saying
> > that, for common-sense reasons, we should make English the official
> > language of this nation (at least within the domain of the borders
> > of the 50 states). I am NOT saying I hate spanish people or chinese
> > people or anyone else, because I certainly do not. I am 25 percent
> > Cyprian Greek ancestrally. I would be hating myself (and I do not).
> > What I hate is the irrationality of allowing another language to creep
> > into the U.S.A. (or at least the 50 states thereof).
> 
> Languages creep in in all sorts of ways (you understand schnapps, ciao,
> paisano, kibbitz, tortilla, and more), but creeping isn't the point.
> When we, as a nation, bring a people under our wing by force (for their
> own good, of course), their language rides -- it doesn't creep -- in
> with them. We tried your approach on the Indian reservations. We had to
> give it up as inhumane and counterproductive.

Things creep into or out of the U.S. all the time.  Pizza creeped into
the U.S., when hamburgers creeped out of the U.S.; Bruce Lee and
Jackie Chan martial arts creeped into the U.S. in Hollywood while Toy
Story and Mickey Mouse creeped into Asia.  Poinsettia creeped from
Mexico into the U.S., and now Chrysler is no longer purely an American
company.

How do we define "pure U.S.A." and "creep" then?

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message news:<4000918F.57107734@arcanemethods.com>...
> Siberian Husky wrote:
> > 
> > You do not have to choose -- isn't English the "default" choice if you
> > do not choose at all?
> 
> Not any more, at least in CA.  There is some simple question
> asked at the start, like "do you want a receipt" in both
> languages with answers in both.  Which one you chose selects
> the language.

Do you mean almost all ATMs for almost all commercial banks in
California do this, or you can find one such example, like Rick Lyon
found he could buy a gun without being asked U.S. citizenship in one
store and then he concluded in the U.S. (or at least in California)
this is not required?

When I stayed in California, as far as I can remember only Citibank
offers multi-lingual ATMs -- and I do not think Citibank was a major
one in California back then.  Neither Bank of America, Wells Fargo
Bank and First Interstate Bank (later acquired by Wells Fargo) offered
multi-lingual nor bilingual ATMs.  I know that because I used ATMs
from all of them.

As of today, some or most of Wells Fargo ATMs in Washington State do
offer Chinese menus and/or Spanish ones -- but you do not need to
press any additional keys to use English menus.  You insert your bank
card, then a menu shows up prompting you for your PIN.  If you enter
your 4-digit PIN at this time, then you directly jump to the English
menu -- no extra key required.  If, before you enter your PIN you
pressed the language key near the screen, then you will be offered the
Chinese/Spanish menu.

I assume Wells Fargo ATMs are the same in Washington, California and
probably all the states.  You do not really need several models of ATM
and the accompanying softwares to serve your bank customers in
different states.

If you are really a busy guy and you do not even want to press one
more key to select "English", I believe you can almost always find one
satisfying your needs.  For AT&T Long Distance, or Verizon/GTE and
Pacific Bell, they offer different 800 phone numbers for English,
Mandarin Chinese and Spanish.

> I've gotta admit that it annoys me to deal with people that
> don't speak _my_ language but I've come to accept how
> me-centric that really is.  The added cost of multiple
> languages does begin to get sticky but I still think it
> pretty me-centric to get all bent behind it.

Yes, it annoys me too.  When I check in at a motel managed by an
Indian gentleman, I hate it that I hardly understand what he says;
when I order a Subway sandwich, I hate it that the Thai guy speaks so
fast and so vague, I hardly understand his words and I got too much
ketchup on my sub.

But who am I to tell them "your English sucks", or "please speak
English only"?

In the past I used to believe people specializing in digital signal
processing, or some electrical engineering/computer science/any other
science related fields, tend to hold an open mind, because they tend
to think more clearly, objectively and carefully.

Now I know I am wrong.

Siberian Husky wrote:
> 
> Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message news:<4000918F.57107734@arcanemethods.com>...
> > Siberian Husky wrote:
> > >
> > > You do not have to choose -- isn't English the "default" choice if you
> > > do not choose at all?
> >
> > Not any more, at least in CA.  There is some simple question
> > asked at the start, like "do you want a receipt" in both
> > languages with answers in both.  Which one you chose selects
> > the language.
> 
> Do you mean almost all ATMs for almost all commercial banks in
> California do this, 

No exceptions recently that I can think of.

> or you can find one such example, like Rick Lyon
> found he could buy a gun without being asked U.S. citizenship in one
> store and then he concluded in the U.S. (or at least in California)
> this is not required?

Dunno nuthin' about this.

> 
> In the past I used to believe people specializing in digital signal
> processing, or some electrical engineering/computer science/any other
> science related fields, tend to hold an open mind, because they tend
> to think more clearly, objectively and carefully.
> 
> Now I know I am wrong.

Now, now.  Don't indict all of us.  Generalizing a political
orientation of any kind to any profession is fraught with
peril.  :-)


Bob
-- 

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

Siberian Husky wrote:

> Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<f7YLb.1578$q4.176@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> 
>>Jerry Avins wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>If we don't stem this problem now, it's going to overtake us.
>>>
>>>
>>>For any other language, I agree. But the PC "Puerto Rico" or the old
>>>"Porto Rico" is part of the good ol' U S of A, and a lot of US citizens
>>>who live there don't speak English.
>>
>>How about if I simply modify my statement to "We should require
>>any U.S. citizen that resides in one of the 50 states to speak
>>English."? Done - problem solved.
> 
> 
> Tell us how far you believe the U.S. federal government's authority
> is, to tell the people what language they should use in their homes,
> with their friends, in the bar, in their workplaces, and so on.  If
> you can push for this law to be enacted and enforced, the next step
> will be "by U.S. laws, people cannot say f__k anywhere, in their
> homes, in their cars or in the wilderness trails".


No, no no no NO! That's not what I MEAN! (Can't you read my mind?)

What I mean is that you must be ABLE to speak English. The scenarios
in which you must also USE it would be very limited. I can think
of a few:

   1. In any public emergency situation in which life or property is at risk.
   2. When addressing people of unknown origin, especially within a business.
   3. In the workplace, unless all present agree to another language.

Feel free to speak Mandarin, eat garlic, and/or go naked in your own
homes.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Randy Yates wrote:
>   2. When addressing people of unknown origin, especially within a 
> business.

I meant in public. If they come to your house, feel free to speak to
them however you wish.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Siberian Husky wrote:
 > [..]
> And one reminder for you -- even if the U.S. now has designated
> English as the "official language", it does not stop a state, a county
> or a city from designating both English, Spanish or French as its
> "official languages".

I'd like to remind you of something too, whoever you are.

The U.S.A. is a country governed "by the people" and "for the people".
If we (the people) don't like the way the current legislation is, or if
we think it is lacking in some way, then we can damn well change it or
add to it.

I'm a people, and I'm saying this state of affairs with regards to
language is UNACCEPTABLE.
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

> "Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning"
> --Florence, SC, Jan. 11, 2000

Hehe. Y'know, much as I enjoy a joke at ol' G.W.'s expense, I shudder to
think
what history would think of _me_ if there were reporters hanging on my every
utterance!


Rick Armstrong
(note: reply address is bogus)

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<tfkMb.4111$i4.3537@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Siberian Husky wrote:
>  > [..]
> > And one reminder for you -- even if the U.S. now has designated
> > English as the "official language", it does not stop a state, a county
> > or a city from designating both English, Spanish or French as its
> > "official languages".
> 
> I'd like to remind you of something too, whoever you are.

Whoever I am should be irrelevant here.  I say the same thing whether
I am a U.S. citizen, an illegal immigrant, or a Martian.

> The U.S.A. is a country governed "by the people" and "for the people".
> If we (the people) don't like the way the current legislation is, or if
> we think it is lacking in some way, then we can damn well change it or
> add to it.

And changing the laws or amending the laws would be carried out in the
current existing laws/constitutions.

If you propose adding the condition that all U.S. citizens should pass
6-th grade English capability, fine.  Please urge your representatives
and senators to do so.  I told you your first hurdle is how to avoid
contradictions on disability/age discrimination.  And your second
hurdle is, you are involving the U.S. federal government with the
elementary education (to define what "6th grade English" should
teach), which currently is a county/city issue.

> I'm a people, and I'm saying this state of affairs with regards to
> language is UNACCEPTABLE.

You have your right to push changing it under the current law process
of the U.S.  You can even run for a senator or U.S. president and
swear to push for this legislation to raise the bar of citizenship, or
what eligibility people should possess to work in the U.S.  If you
cannot change it, you decide you do not want to proceed, or for
whatever reasons the citizenship requirements are not changed, then
live with it.

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<Q4kMb.4079$i4.1407@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Siberian Husky wrote:
> 
> >>How about if I simply modify my statement to "We should require
> >>any U.S. citizen that resides in one of the 50 states to speak
> >>English."? Done - problem solved.
> > 
> > 
> > Tell us how far you believe the U.S. federal government's authority
> > is, to tell the people what language they should use in their homes,
> > with their friends, in the bar, in their workplaces, and so on.  If
> > you can push for this law to be enacted and enforced, the next step
> > will be "by U.S. laws, people cannot say f__k anywhere, in their
> > homes, in their cars or in the wilderness trails".
> 
> No, no no no NO! That's not what I MEAN! (Can't you read my mind?)

No.  You are not an open book.

> What I mean is that you must be ABLE to speak English.

That is a good idea, but it changes little about the problems you
experience in North Carolina.
1. Visitors, permanent residents and illegal immigrants keep
   using the language they like, not English.
2. Citizens able to speak English might still opt to use the
   other languages they like, or two American teenagers might
   change to Italian they learned in school so their parents
   do not know what they are chatting about.

> The scenarios
> in which you must also USE it would be very limited. I can think
> of a few:
> 
>    1. In any public emergency situation in which life or property is at risk.

That is a good move, though not necessary.  If today I visit the U.S.
and not able to speak English, I risk *MY* life because I might not be
able to communicate with the hospital staffs.

And I believe you understand that the medical terms are well beyond
what a 6th-grade English class can teach.

Personally I do not see a big deal for "property emergency".  Again,
if I do not speak English, I risk my property.

And if we talk about life -- that is less relevant.  No matter if you
can speak English, if you can't speak English, or somewhere in
between, when you are *IN* a medical emergency, very likely you cannot
talk.  TOEFL 660 points or TOEFL 300 points make little difference
then.

As for medical staffs, doctors and nurses, your suggestion should be
implemented and I agree with you, though I should remind you that
currently the license examinations for medical doctors, nurses,
pharmacists, and so on, are all carried out *IN ENGLISH*.  This means
if you are licensed, you "passed" some test in English.

>    2. When addressing people of unknown origin, especially within a business.

Good idea.  This means when Ricky Martin has a tour throughout the
U.S., by your proposed law he has to change the lyrics for "Livin' la
Vida Loca" into English -- unless we find a legal difference between
"addressing" and "singing".

You described a courtesy scenario where it would be polite to use
English in the U.S.A. when addressing people of unknown origin, but I
do not think it needs to be made into laws.

>    3. In the workplace, unless all present agree to another language.

Sure.  That means a high school naughty student can walk into a French
class and say, "I object to your using French here", and then all U.S.
high schools can no longer teach foreign languages unless they are
free of naughty students.

> Feel free to speak Mandarin, eat garlic, and/or go naked in your own
> homes.

If I book a whole restaurant and invite my friends, do you consider it
a "private" place or a "public" place then?

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message news:<4001B6FE.D80BA645@arcanemethods.com>...
> Siberian Husky wrote:
> > 
> > Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message news:<4000918F.57107734@arcanemethods.com>...
> > > Siberian Husky wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You do not have to choose -- isn't English the "default" choice if you
> > > > do not choose at all?
> > >
> > > Not any more, at least in CA.  There is some simple question
> > > asked at the start, like "do you want a receipt" in both
> > > languages with answers in both.  Which one you chose selects
> > > the language.
> > 
> > Do you mean almost all ATMs for almost all commercial banks in
> > California do this, 
> 
> No exceptions recently that I can think of.

From what I remember, Wells Fargo still bases its headquarter in San
Francisco, so I assume it won't be difficult for you to find a Wells
Fargo branch in California.  Please check Wells Fargo ATMs.

All you need to do is
1. insert your ATM card into a Wells Fargo, or some other bank
   ATM machine, then
2. take a look if you need to press a special key to use its
   English menu, or the English menu is already the default
   and you need to press another key to use a different language
   menu,
3. then withdraw money, check your balance, or, you can press
   the "Cancel" key or deliberately use a wrong PIN so you will
   stop the transaction without being charged a $1.50 transaction
   fee.

> > or you can find one such example, like Rick Lyon
> > found he could buy a gun without being asked U.S. citizenship in one
> > store and then he concluded in the U.S. (or at least in California)
> > this is not required?
> 
> Dunno nuthin' about this.

It is up to you whether it is justified to draw a conclusion based on
one incidence.

> > In the past I used to believe people specializing in digital signal
> > processing, or some electrical engineering/computer science/any other
> > science related fields, tend to hold an open mind, because they tend
> > to think more clearly, objectively and carefully.
> > 
> > Now I know I am wrong.
> 
> Now, now.  Don't indict all of us.  Generalizing a political
> orientation of any kind to any profession is fraught with
> peril.  :-)

If you have the 6th-grade English capability as Randy Yates suggested,
you should know that the negation of "all people are A" is "not all
people are A".  Those with 3rd-grade English capability would say the
negation of "all people are A" is "all people are not A".

Now, if you say I indicted *ALL* of DSP people, I know which grade you
are in.  :-)

Siberian Husky wrote:
> 
> > > Do you mean almost all ATMs for almost all commercial banks in
> > > California do this,
> >
> > No exceptions recently that I can think of.
> 
> From what I remember, Wells Fargo still bases its headquarter in San
> Francisco, so I assume it won't be difficult for you to find a Wells
> Fargo branch in California.  Please check Wells Fargo ATMs.

Sorry, I don't have time to do your research.  I just use
ATMs all over town and reported on what I've been seeing as
the norm.  I don't think Wells Fargo has been among my
sample to be honest.


> > > or you can find one such example, like Rick Lyon
> > > found he could buy a gun without being asked U.S. citizenship in one
> > > store and then he concluded in the U.S. (or at least in California)
> > > this is not required?
> >
> > Dunno nuthin' about this.
> 
> It is up to you whether it is justified to draw a conclusion based on
> one incidence.

What on earth are you talking about?

> >
> > Now, now.  Don't indict all of us.  Generalizing a political
> > orientation of any kind to any profession is fraught with
> > peril.  :-)
> 
> If you have the 6th-grade English capability as Randy Yates suggested,
> you should know that the negation of "all people are A" is "not all
> people are A".  Those with 3rd-grade English capability would say the
> negation of "all people are A" is "all people are not A".

<PLONK>


Bob
-- 

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

> Call me "intolerant," but I *HATE* having to answer
> "English or Spanish?" everytime I use an ATM machine,
> card machine at the grocery checkout, or automated
> telephone system. There should be no choice - this
> is the U.S.A.

Hope your argument will satisfy all who demand for option of ENGLISH in ATMs
in Japan. Japan Post Office should also reconsider to remove the option of
ENGLISH in their cash machines, not to hurt feelings of Japanese people.

Ishtiaq.

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message news:<4002E723.2B45F9E6@arcanemethods.com>...
> Siberian Husky wrote:
> > 
> > > > Do you mean almost all ATMs for almost all commercial banks in
> > > > California do this,
> > >
> > > No exceptions recently that I can think of.
> > 
> > From what I remember, Wells Fargo still bases its headquarter in San
> > Francisco, so I assume it won't be difficult for you to find a Wells
> > Fargo branch in California.  Please check Wells Fargo ATMs.
> 
> Sorry, I don't have time to do your research.  I just use
> ATMs all over town and reported on what I've been seeing as
> the norm.  I don't think Wells Fargo has been among my
> sample to be honest.

That's fine with me.  Next time when you claim "California ATMs ask
people to press one extra key to use English menus", please add "I did
not try Wells Fargo ATMs, one of the largest banks in California,
because that is someone else' research."

> (snip)

> > > Now, now.  Don't indict all of us.  Generalizing a political
> > > orientation of any kind to any profession is fraught with
> > > peril.  :-)
> > 
> > If you have the 6th-grade English capability as Randy Yates suggested,
> > you should know that the negation of "all people are A" is "not all
> > people are A".  Those with 3rd-grade English capability would say the
> > negation of "all people are A" is "all people are not A".
> 
> <PLONK>

I lurk most of the time in comp.dsp without posting (and if I need to
post, another email address will be used).  If plonking me makes you
happier, it is my honor.  I think I learn more from comp.dsp than I
can contribute.

But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
meantime.

Siberian Husky wrote:
> But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
> customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
> meantime.

The ATM I use drives me bananas.  I consider it a great example of poor 
user interface design.

When I insert my card, it should know who I am.  It should ask me ONCE 
what language I prefer and remember that.  It should provide a menu 
option to change this selection, but not require me to make a selection 
every time I use the stupid machine.

The next screen tells me to enter my PIN "number" [1] and press enter. 
As soon as I enter the PIN, but before I can press enter, it logs me in. 
  So if I don't have to press enter, why does it tell me to do that?

Maybe it's all part of their plan to drive me to use ATM's belonging to 
other banks so they can charge me 3 bux.

Sorry about the gripe.

[1] That is, my Personal Identification Number number.

-- 
Jim Thomas            Principal Applications Engineer  Bittware, Inc
jthomas@bittware.com  http://www.bittware.com          (703) 779-7770
Time flies like an arrow.  And fruit flies like bananas.

Hello Jim and others,

The Bank of America ATMs here in Georgia actually state after I insert my
card that they are "loading customer preferences", and then the 1st thing it
does is ask for the choice of language.And it does this every single time. I
don't care if the machine supports 100 languages, it should remember my last
choice and work from there. It is not like I lend my bankcard out to other
users! Since the machine states it is "loading customer preferences", this
shows that the bank has at least thought about this problem, but their
implementation doesn't work. And it has been this way for a couple of years.

Clay




"Jim Thomas" <jthomas@bittware.com> wrote in message
news:100824athudhobd@corp.supernews.com...
> Siberian Husky wrote:
> > But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
> > customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
> > meantime.
>
> The ATM I use drives me bananas.  I consider it a great example of poor
> user interface design.
>
> When I insert my card, it should know who I am.  It should ask me ONCE
> what language I prefer and remember that.  It should provide a menu
> option to change this selection, but not require me to make a selection
> every time I use the stupid machine.
>
> The next screen tells me to enter my PIN "number" [1] and press enter.
> As soon as I enter the PIN, but before I can press enter, it logs me in.
>   So if I don't have to press enter, why does it tell me to do that?
>
> Maybe it's all part of their plan to drive me to use ATM's belonging to
> other banks so they can charge me 3 bux.
>
> Sorry about the gripe.
>
> [1] That is, my Personal Identification Number number.
>
> -- 
> Jim Thomas            Principal Applications Engineer  Bittware, Inc
> jthomas@bittware.com  http://www.bittware.com          (703) 779-7770
> Time flies like an arrow.  And fruit flies like bananas.
>

Jim Thomas wrote:

   ...

> The ATM I use drives me bananas.  I consider it a great example of poor 
> user interface design.

Par for the course. And for the coarse : not refined.

> When I insert my card, it should know who I am.  It should ask me ONCE 
> what language I prefer and remember that.  It should provide a menu 
> option to change this selection, but not require me to make a selection 
> every time I use the stupid machine.

I have an appointment today with my doctor. Last night, their computer
called to remind me. It said that the call was a reminder for me, then
ran down a tree of possibilities: If my appointment is at the Princeton
office, go to room x; if at the West Windsor office, go to room y. If
I'm a new patient, come early to fill out forms. If I'm a referral, ...

After nearly two minutes, it tells me what time. Only after that can I
press '1' to confirm the appointment. Damn! In addition to the time, 
they know who I am, where I'm supposed to go to, and whether I'm a new
patient. The rest is just laziness. Next time, I'll just hang up; to
hell with confirming. The staff can't help. "That's the way it works."

> The next screen tells me to enter my PIN "number" [1] and press enter. 
> As soon as I enter the PIN, but before I can press enter, it logs me in. 
> So if I don't have to press enter, why does it tell me to do that?

Maybe PINs can have variable length (they can at my bank), and you use
the maximum. Maybe it's left over from a previous version of the
software. Maybe one manager type insisted on seeing "Press Enter" for
every action and another insisted on automatic continuance whenever
possible. (Now they're both happy and we know the company is stupid.)
Maybe they want to give us the pleasure of speculating.

> Maybe it's all part of their plan to drive me to use ATM's belonging to 
> other banks so they can charge me 3 bux.

$3! Wow! Doesn't the fee go to the other bank?

> Sorry about the gripe.

Hey: what are friends for?

> [1] That is, my Personal Identification Number number.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Siberian Husky wrote:
> 
> 
> That's fine with me.  Next time when you claim "California ATMs ask
> people to press one extra key to use English menus", please add "I did
> not try Wells Fargo ATMs, one of the largest banks in California,
> because that is someone else' research."

You are a real trip, dude.  Take your control and
confrontation issues elsewhere.

> But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
> customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
> meantime.

Please go soak your head.


Bob
-- 

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Jim Thomas wrote:
>> Maybe it's all part of their plan to drive me to use ATM's belonging 
>> to other banks so they can charge me 3 bux.
> 
> 
> $3! Wow! Doesn't the fee go to the other bank?

I think there's a fee from both banks, but honestly, I don't know how 
much it is.  The sum is in the $3 range though.  It was worth it when I 
was travelling abroad, because it was less than the commission on 
exchanging foreign currency.  But when the "right" bank is a few blocks 
away, I just refuse.

Clay - your example is fabulous.  I wonder what preferences they think 
they're loading?  But Jerry's reminder-call takes the cake!

And while we're at it... why can't cash registers print the credit card 
slip FIRST so I can sign it while it prints out the sales receipt?  The 
way it is now, I have to wait for both.

Maybe it's because these devices aren't programmed by real-time 
engineers.  I think it's a basic real-time instinct to overlap waits.

-- 
Jim Thomas            Principal Applications Engineer  Bittware, Inc
jthomas@bittware.com  http://www.bittware.com          (703) 779-7770
Time flies like an arrow.  And fruit flies like bananas.

> Call me "intolerant," but I *HATE* having to answer
> "English or Spanish?" everytime I use an ATM machine,
> card machine at the grocery checkout, or automated
> telephone system. There should be no choice - this
> is the U.S.A.

Why do you get so mad about that? Here in Colombia, and in many other
countries, not only here in South America, but also in many other
places around the world, you can find also the question of whether to
use the ATM in the native language of that place, or in english. And
nobody gets that mad!

Of course, it would be ideal to have one solid culture, language,
etc... That's an important part of what makes a nation's own identity,
I said that in a previous post. But things have changed, and in
countries like yours, with such a big influence of people from other
places abroad (not just illegal inmigrants), it is lots more
noticeable.

I think that fighting against the inmigrants is not a real solution.
If you want tyour nation to be strong about its identity, teach it to
your children. That's the best you can do.

JaaC

> Our conquests in the Spanish-
> American War made us a bilingual country. It happened: get used to it.

Well said!

You guys, should know it very well, because of the technological
background: if you stick to old paradigms, and don't adapt to the
environment, you have lower chances to "survive". And you can't stop
it. So, better, try to adapt yourself.

About culture, language, etc, it doesn't mean you'll switch to another
language or culture, It just means that you can accept others and will
be able to have it around, without necessarily fighting against it.

> 
> Jerry

> And Jerry, if we following your logic through consistently, then
> any new culture we "assimilate" will require us to provide things
> in their language? I can just see it now: "Press 1 for Spanish,
> 2 for French, 3 for German, and 4 for Nazi right-wing liberalese"

Are that many french, or german, or anything else speakers, as spanish
speakers in the USA? with too much respect, you didn't understand the
message, let me tell you!

> That's right, *we* won the war, and therefore *we* have the right to
> dictate the language, EVEN in Puerto Rico, if we desired.

Of course! No doubt about it! Indeed, that the reason why *we* speak
spanish in most of the countries in Central and South America, and
Portugese in Brazil. I don't know, but maybe something happened in the
history that didn't let english become the language in Puerto Rico.
And maybe it's too late to do that.

> In case anyone is confused about my position, I am simply saying
> that, for common-sense reasons, we should make English the official
> language of this nation (at least within the domain of the borders
> of the 50 states). I am NOT saying I hate spanish people or chinese
> people or anyone else, because I certainly do not. I am 25 percent
> Cyprian Greek ancestrally. I would be hating myself (and I do not).
> What I hate is the irrationality of allowing another language to creep
> into the U.S.A. (or at least the 50 states thereof).

Sure. I couldn't believe that someone like you would be so
close-minded to hate someone just because he/she is not from the
USA.... You are right when saying that "for common-sense reasons, we
should make English the official language of this nation". Have you
asked yourself why is it not, from the very beginning of your nation's
history, the official language? If english is not the *official*
language of the USA, from the beginning, it is not because of the
amount of spanish-speaking people who are currently living there. And
if you see that spanish language is becoming more and more used in the
USA is because of the relevance that the spanish-speaking community
has in the USA, regardless of the fact that you like it or not.

> Since Randy Yates so deeply believes English is the mother tongue for
> people in the 50 states, I wonder what he thinks about Alaska and
> Louisiana.
> 
> In 1867 the United States purchased Alaska from Russia for $7.2
> million dollars, abot 2 cents an acre.  So, is the mother tongue for
> Alaska Aleutian, Russian, or English?
> 
> In 1803 the United States purchased Louisiana from France.  So, is the
> mother tongue for Lousiana French, English, or some native American
> language?

Nice post. Good arguments.

JaaC

> 
> In the past I used to believe people specializing in digital signal
> processing, or some electrical engineering/computer science/any other
> science related fields, tend to hold an open mind, because they tend
> to think more clearly, objectively and carefully.
> 
> Now I know I am wrong.

I used to believe the same. I wouldn't say "I know I am wrong", but I
must admit I am very confused. I never thought I'd read whar I've read
here, no in comp.dsp.

JaaC

> 
> Now, now.  Don't indict all of us.  Generalizing a political
> orientation of any kind to any profession is fraught with
> peril.  :-)

I don't think he meant that _all_ the persons dedicated to DSP think
this way, even less, because of their profession.

It is clear that, in general,  "people specializing in digital signal
processing, or some electrical engineering/computer science/any other
science related fields, tend to hold an open mind, because they tend
to think more clearly, objectively and carefully", this is no a new
discovery. You know, this profession gives some structure of thinking.
But some comments here have shown something a bit different.

I hope this has been only because the discussion has been sometimes
"hot", and maybe the participants have been somewhat radicals in their
(our?) own positions and viewpoints.

Regards,

JaaC

> 
> 
> Bob

On 13 Jan 2004 14:51:18 -0800, jaime.aranguren@ieee.org (Jaime Andres
Aranguren Cardona) wrote:

>> 
>> In the past I used to believe people specializing in digital signal
>> processing, or some electrical engineering/computer science/any other
>> science related fields, tend to hold an open mind, because they tend
>> to think more clearly, objectively and carefully.
>> 
>> Now I know I am wrong.
>
>I used to believe the same. I wouldn't say "I know I am wrong", but I
>must admit I am very confused. I never thought I'd read whar I've read
>here, no in comp.dsp.
>
>JaaC

Hello Jaime,
  well, ... we're all just human beings, with our 
qualities, and our faults.  The best we can do,
is to rise above where we are, rise above who we 
are, and gaze at the stars 

[-Rick-]

Gosh, I never thought about those things.
I think you're right Jim!

[-Rick-]

------------------------------------
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:01:02 -0500, Jim Thomas <jthomas@bittware.com>
wrote:

>Siberian Husky wrote:
>> But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
>> customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
>> meantime.
>
>The ATM I use drives me bananas.  I consider it a great example of poor 
>user interface design.
>
>When I insert my card, it should know who I am.  It should ask me ONCE 
>what language I prefer and remember that.  It should provide a menu 
>option to change this selection, but not require me to make a selection 
>every time I use the stupid machine.
>
>The next screen tells me to enter my PIN "number" [1] and press enter. 
>As soon as I enter the PIN, but before I can press enter, it logs me in. 
>  So if I don't have to press enter, why does it tell me to do that?
>
>Maybe it's all part of their plan to drive me to use ATM's belonging to 
>other banks so they can charge me 3 bux.
>
>Sorry about the gripe.
>
>[1] That is, my Personal Identification Number number.
>
>-- 
>Jim Thomas            Principal Applications Engineer  Bittware, Inc
>jthomas@bittware.com  http://www.bittware.com          (703) 779-7770
>Time flies like an arrow.  And fruit flies like bananas.
>

alaskanmalamute@hotmail.com (Siberian Husky) writes:

> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<40007e45$0$6761$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>...
>> Randy Yates wrote:
>> 
>> > How about if I simply modify my statement to "We should require
>> > any U.S. citizen that resides in one of the 50 states to speak
>> > English."? Done - problem solved.
>> 
>> That's OK provided we give them a grace period. US citizens are free to
>> relocate anywhere in the country at any time. I t would be unreasonable
>> to require you to become fluent in Spanish _before_ you take that
>> promotion that lands you in Puerto Rico. You ought to get a reasonable
>> time _after_ you get there.
>
> I wonder what happens if Randy Yates successfully promoted enacting
> the law, that any U.S. citizen residing in one of the 50 states is
> required to speak English."
>
> And then someone filing lawsuits on freedom of speech and go all the
> way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Apparently you don't understand the difference between content and language.

>> > And Jerry, if we following your logic through consistently, then
>> > any new culture we "assimilate" will require us to provide things
>> > in their language? I can just see it now: "Press 1 for Spanish,
>> > 2 for French, 3 for German, and 4 for Nazi right-wing liberalese"
>> 
>> If we have any brains as a nation, or any collective memory of history,
>> we will never again annex territory where the natives don't speak
>> English or Spanish. If, for example, Dubya were stupid enough to declare
>> Iraq US territory and its residents US citizens, then Arabic would
>> become the third US official language. That's not to say that we would
>> have to learn it, but it would have to be on official documents. Let's
>> hope it never happens.
>
> The U.S. did not expand its territory purely based on conquering.
>
> Since Randy Yates so deeply believes English is the mother tongue for
> people in the 50 states, I wonder what he thinks about Alaska and
> Louisiana.

Since you asked...

> In 1867 the United States purchased Alaska from Russia for $7.2
> million dollars, abot 2 cents an acre.  So, is the mother tongue for
> Alaska Aleutian, Russian, or English?

English.

> In 1803 the United States purchased Louisiana from France.  So, is the
> mother tongue for Lousiana French, English, or some native American
> language?

English.

>> > In case anyone is confused about my position, I am simply saying
>> > that, for common-sense reasons, we should make English the official
>> > language of this nation (at least within the domain of the borders
>> > of the 50 states). I am NOT saying I hate spanish people or chinese
>> > people or anyone else, because I certainly do not. I am 25 percent
>> > Cyprian Greek ancestrally. I would be hating myself (and I do not).
>> > What I hate is the irrationality of allowing another language to creep
>> > into the U.S.A. (or at least the 50 states thereof).
>> 
>> Languages creep in in all sorts of ways (you understand schnapps, ciao,
>> paisano, kibbitz, tortilla, and more), but creeping isn't the point.
>> When we, as a nation, bring a people under our wing by force (for their
>> own good, of course), their language rides -- it doesn't creep -- in
>> with them. We tried your approach on the Indian reservations. We had to
>> give it up as inhumane and counterproductive.
>
> Things creep into or out of the U.S. all the time.  Pizza creeped into
> the U.S., when hamburgers creeped out of the U.S.; Bruce Lee and
> Jackie Chan martial arts creeped into the U.S. in Hollywood while Toy
> Story and Mickey Mouse creeped into Asia.  Poinsettia creeped from
> Mexico into the U.S., and now Chrysler is no longer purely an American
> company.

I see that you are no longer arguing the topic but ridiculing the way
something was stated. I'll take that to mean you have no further 
significant rational arguments against the topic proper. 

> How do we define "pure U.S.A." and "creep" then?

What is the definition of is?
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

Randy Yates wrote:

> 
> > In 1803 the United States purchased Louisiana from France.  So, is the
> > mother tongue for Lousiana French, English, or some native American
> > language?
> 
> English.
> 

At the time Louisiana became a state the majority of the citizens were
French speaking, as a result Article XII, � 4 of Louisiana's
constitution  provides: 

          The right of the people to preserve, foster, and
          promote their respective historic linguistic and
          cultural origins is recognized.

On the other hand, in 1923 the state of Illinois banned English with
this proclamation:

	Whereas, Since the creation of the American Republic there
        have been certain Tory elements in our country who have never
        become reconciled to our republican institutions and have ever
        clung to the tradition of King and Empire; and

        Whereas, America has been a haven of liberty and place of
        opportunity for the common people of all nations; and

        Whereas, These strangers within our gates who seek economic
        betterment, political freedom, larger opportunities for their
        children and citizenship for themselves, come to think of our
        institutions as American and our language as the American
        language; and

        Whereas, The name of the language of a country has a powerful
        psychological influence in stimulating and preserving
        the national ideal; and 

        Whereas, The languages of other countries bear the names of
        the countries to which they belong, ... now therefore

        Sec. 1. Be it enacted by the People of the State of Illinois,
        represented in the General Assembly: The official language
        of the State of Illinois shall be known hereafter as the
        "American" language and not as the "English" language.

-jim


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On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 09:26:29 -0800, Bob Cain
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>
>
>Siberian Husky wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> That's fine with me.  Next time when you claim "California ATMs ask
>> people to press one extra key to use English menus", please add "I did
>> not try Wells Fargo ATMs, one of the largest banks in California,
>> because that is someone else' research."
>
>You are a real trip, dude.  Take your control and
>confrontation issues elsewhere.
>
>> But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
>> customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
>> meantime.
>
>Please go soak your head.
>
>
>Bob

Hi Bob,
  I live north of Sacramento and I can say that 
the ATMs in the grocery stores and 7-11s 
convenience stores make you press an extra key if 
you want English.

Now of course I haven't tested every darned ATM 
in the county, I'm just saying that I don't know 
of any ATMs that *don't* make you push that 
extra button.  It's no big deal though.

What I wonder is how much does it cost us to 
have English/Spanish translators stand by 
for every court trial in California? 

It's a real shame our immigration policies 
weren't modeled after the Mexican government's 
immigration policies.

I support legal immigration.  Too bad our 
politicans don't. 

[-Rick-]

Rick Lyons wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 09:26:29 -0800, Bob Cain
> <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>>Siberian Husky wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>That's fine with me.  Next time when you claim "California ATMs ask
>>>people to press one extra key to use English menus", please add "I did
>>>not try Wells Fargo ATMs, one of the largest banks in California,
>>>because that is someone else' research."
>>
>>You are a real trip, dude.  Take your control and
>>confrontation issues elsewhere.
>>
>>
>>>But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
>>>customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
>>>meantime.
>>
>>Please go soak your head.
>>
>>
>>Bob
> 
> 
> Hi Bob,
>   I live north of Sacramento and I can say that 
> the ATMs in the grocery stores and 7-11s 
> convenience stores make you press an extra key if 
> you want English.
> 
> Now of course I haven't tested every darned ATM 
> in the county, I'm just saying that I don't know 
> of any ATMs that *don't* make you push that 
> extra button.  It's no big deal though.
> 
> What I wonder is how much does it cost us to 
> have English/Spanish translators stand by 
> for every court trial in California? 
> 
> It's a real shame our immigration policies 
> weren't modeled after the Mexican government's 
> immigration policies.
> 
> I support legal immigration.  Too bad our 
> politicans don't. 
> 
> [-Rick-]

Rick,

I see the same thing here, even in the self checkouts that are starting 
to show up in supermarkets. I found that if I ignore the button and go 
to the next step, English is assumed. Have you tried that? Is it possible?

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:

> Rick Lyons wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 09:26:29 -0800, Bob Cain
>> <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Siberian Husky wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's fine with me.  Next time when you claim "California ATMs ask
>>>>people to press one extra key to use English menus", please add "I did
>>>>not try Wells Fargo ATMs, one of the largest banks in California,
>>>>because that is someone else' research."
>>>
>>>You are a real trip, dude.  Take your control and
>>>confrontation issues elsewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>>But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
>>>>customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
>>>>meantime.
>>>
>>>Please go soak your head.
>>>
>>>
>>>Bob
>> Hi Bob,
>>   I live north of Sacramento and I can say that the ATMs in the
>> grocery stores and 7-11s convenience stores make you press an extra
>> key if you want English.
>> Now of course I haven't tested every darned ATM in the county, I'm
>> just saying that I don't know of any ATMs that *don't* make you push
>> that extra button.  It's no big deal though.
>> What I wonder is how much does it cost us to have English/Spanish
>> translators stand by for every court trial in California? It's a
>> real shame our immigration policies weren't modeled after the
>> Mexican government's immigration policies.
>> I support legal immigration.  Too bad our politicans don't. [-Rick-]
>
> Rick,
>
> I see the same thing here, even in the self checkouts that are
> starting to show up in supermarkets. I found that if I ignore the
> button and go to the next step, English is assumed. Have you tried
> that? Is it possible?

I haven't noticed that, but I have noticed on the Wachovia bank
ATMs (is Wachovia up where you live?) a very good idea: They present
the menu asking for your PIN number (after you put in your card) in
BOTH English and Spanish, so you just key in your number and press the
response in the language you use. No extra steps. Great idea. I'd like
to buy the UML / S/W engineer who came up with that one a taco. :)
-- 
%  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO

Randy Yates wrote:
> I haven't noticed that, but I have noticed on the Wachovia bank
> ATMs (is Wachovia up where you live?) a very good idea: They present
> the menu asking for your PIN number (after you put in your card) in
> BOTH English and Spanish, so you just key in your number and press the
> response in the language you use. No extra steps. Great idea. I'd like
> to buy the UML / S/W engineer who came up with that one a taco. :)
> --
> %  Randy Yates                  % "...the answer lies within your soul
> %% Fuquay-Varina, NC            %       'cause no one knows which side
> %%% 919-577-9882                %                   the coin will fall."
> %%%% <yates@ieee.org>           %  'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO

Finnish translation is still not available ?

Jarmo Raiha

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<wu7ur6zl.fsf@ieee.org>...
> alaskanmalamute@hotmail.com (Siberian Husky) writes:
> 
> > I wonder what happens if Randy Yates successfully promoted enacting
> > the law, that any U.S. citizen residing in one of the 50 states is
> > required to speak English."
> >
> > And then someone filing lawsuits on freedom of speech and go all the
> > way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
> 
> Apparently you don't understand the difference between content and language.

And apparently you claim you do -- but you don't show it here.

> > The U.S. did not expand its territory purely based on conquering.
> >
> > Since Randy Yates so deeply believes English is the mother tongue for
> > people in the 50 states, I wonder what he thinks about Alaska and
> > Louisiana.
> 
> Since you asked...
> 
> > In 1867 the United States purchased Alaska from Russia for $7.2
> > million dollars, abot 2 cents an acre.  So, is the mother tongue for
> > Alaska Aleutian, Russian, or English?
> 
> English.

Why?  How do you define what a "mother tongue" should be?  In 1866,
what is the mother tongue for Alaska?  In 1868?

> > In 1803 the United States purchased Louisiana from France.  So, is the
> > mother tongue for Lousiana French, English, or some native American
> > language?
> 
> English.

Why?  How do you define what a "mother tongue" should be?  In 1802,
what is the mother tongue for Louisiana?  In 1804?

> > Things creep into or out of the U.S. all the time.  Pizza creeped into
> > the U.S., when hamburgers creeped out of the U.S.; Bruce Lee and
> > Jackie Chan martial arts creeped into the U.S. in Hollywood while Toy
> > Story and Mickey Mouse creeped into Asia.  Poinsettia creeped from
> > Mexico into the U.S., and now Chrysler is no longer purely an American
> > company.
> 
> I see that you are no longer arguing the topic but ridiculing the way
> something was stated. I'll take that to mean you have no further 
> significant rational arguments against the topic proper. 

And I see that you claim the mother tongue for Alaska and Louisiana
should be English but you did not elaborate why.

And do not forget that "Louisiana purchase" includes nearly 1/3 or one
quarter of today's United States.

> > How do we define "pure U.S.A." and "creep" then?
> 
> What is the definition of is?

Now Randy Yates followed the well-known lying style of arguments by
the two Bills.

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message news:<40042A45.943E72FF@arcanemethods.com>...
> Siberian Husky wrote:
> > 
> > That's fine with me.  Next time when you claim "California ATMs ask
> > people to press one extra key to use English menus", please add "I did
> > not try Wells Fargo ATMs, one of the largest banks in California,
> > because that is someone else' research."
> 
> You are a real trip, dude.  Take your control and
> confrontation issues elsewhere.

That is fine with me when I give a counterexample of ATMs not asking
you to press an extra key for English menu for your claim, which
belong to one of the largest banks in California.  Again, you do not
need to do my research but then you cannot keep your claim when you do
not prove my counterexample false.

I do not confront *YOU* but I do confront your invalid claim.  If you
want to tie them up, that is fine with me.  I still read your posts on
DSP issues and grab knowledge if it is handy for my interest and my
job.

> > But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
> > customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
> > meantime.
> 
> Please go soak your head.

Please stop claiming (all/the majority) of ATMs in California require
you to press one extra key to use English menus.  I am right now out
of the U.S., but my counterexample for Wells Fargo bank still stands
there.  Anyone in California who wants to beat my counterexample can
try it.

So far nobody does.  I do not expect to visit California again until
2005 (and when I was in Southern California in July 2003, my claim on
Wells Fargo bank held true).  Let's see if my counterexample stands
without being challenged until 2005.

Randy Yates <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<zncoa984.fsf@ieee.org>...
> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
> 
> > I see the same thing here, even in the self checkouts that are
> > starting to show up in supermarkets. I found that if I ignore the
> > button and go to the next step, English is assumed. Have you tried
> > that? Is it possible?
> 
> I haven't noticed that, but I have noticed on the Wachovia bank
> ATMs (is Wachovia up where you live?) a very good idea: They present
> the menu asking for your PIN number (after you put in your card) in
> BOTH English and Spanish, so you just key in your number and press the
> response in the language you use. No extra steps. Great idea. I'd like
> to buy the UML / S/W engineer who came up with that one a taco. :)

Wait, "taco" is a Spanish/Mexican word which you do not appreciate in
the United States.  :)

By the way, when anyone complains about the languages used on ATM
machines in the United States, please keep in mind that
(1) There could be several models of the ATMs used by the same bank,
    in the same locality, probably due to its own upgrade programs,
    or, take Wells Fargo and Bank of America for example, these
    models are a results of bank acquisitions.
(2) Banks belong to the service industry, and its mission is to
    make the customers happy.  If you guys hate being given a menu
    which requires an extra key for English menu, then you should make
    a complaint.  If enough people make the complaint compared to
    those complaining for pressing one extra key for Spanish
    menu, then banks will switch to the ATMs you like to offer
    English menus first.  If more customers like to use Spanish
    menus without pressing any extra keys, then you have to
    swallow it, or turn to another bank offering "English first"
    menus.

Randy Yates wrote:
> 
> Apparently you don't understand the difference between content and language.
> 

Only an engineer would assume that the two are separable.

Paul

Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net> wrote in message news:<c3UOb.9492$XF6.197134@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> Randy Yates wrote:
> > 
> > Apparently you don't understand the difference between content and language.
> > 
> 
> Only an engineer would assume that the two are separable.
> 
> Paul

If you think they're not, try to find the content in virtually any 
political speech.

Ken

Ken Asbury wrote:
>>
>>Only an engineer would assume that the two are separable.
>>
>>Paul
> 
> 
> If you think they're not, try to find the content in virtually any 
> political speech.
> 

Good point. Of course just because there are some pathological cases 
such as the one you cite above where the two *are* indeed separable, 
this does not imply that the two are separable in the general case.

Paul

Paul Russell wrote:

> Randy Yates wrote:
> 
>>
>> Apparently you don't understand the difference between content and 
>> language.
>>
> 
> Only an engineer would assume that the two are separable.
> 
> Paul
> 


Or a linguist ;}
E.G.

I believe "Please put the bonnet in the boot." can have two quite 
unrelated sets of content in British English as would the similar 
American English "Please put the hood in the trunk."
And both would be unambiguous if spoken in the other dialect.

OR

"M'aidez" cf "Help me". Obviously same content ;]

As my heurmenutics prof repeated many times "Text, without context, is 
pretext."

Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
> Paul Russell wrote:
> 
> > Randy Yates wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Apparently you don't understand the difference between content and
> >> language.
> >>
> >
> > Only an engineer would assume that the two are separable.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> 
> Or a linguist ;}
> E.G.
> 
> I believe "Please put the bonnet in the boot." can have two quite
> unrelated sets of content in British English as would the similar
> American English "Please put the hood in the trunk."
> And both would be unambiguous if spoken in the other dialect.
> 
> OR
> 
> "M'aidez" cf "Help me". Obviously same content ;]
> 
> As my heurmenutics prof repeated many times "Text, without context, is
> pretext."

	The context of the present discussion is can the government require
people to speak a certain language. The U.S. Supreme Court has
consistantly held that doing so would contravene the first ammendment.
Their opinion trumps yours.
	This means that 20 years from now, if the people of California decide
to declare Spanish as the official state language (in the same sort of
way they might want to name a particular bird the 'state bird'), they
will not be able to pass a law to require people to speak only Spanish
in a place of business.

-jim


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Paul Russell wrote:

> Ken Asbury wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> Only an engineer would assume that the two are separable.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> If you think they're not, try to find the content in virtually any 
>> political speech.
>>
> 
> Good point. Of course just because there are some pathological cases 
> such as the one you cite above where the two *are* indeed separable, 
> this does not imply that the two are separable in the general case.
> 
> Paul

Listen closely to the next ad you come across on radio or TV.

Jerry
-- 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������

allnor@tele.ntnu.no (Rune Allnor) writes:


> Perhaps the Finns would be better suited to fill you in, but Finnish is
> a language standing almost on its own. The only European language that 
> comes even remotely close, is Hungarian. These two languages, apparently,

A short correcting of facts concerning finnish, finno-ugric languages.


Finnish (Suomi) and Estonian (Eesti) is very closely related, about as close
as Swedish-Danish-Norwegian. 

Sami (Sapmi) is also quite close to Finnish, if this comes from long-time
exposure/contacts between the finnish and the sami peoples or if the
Samojedic language group is a sub-branch in the finno-ugric language-tree
i can not recall at the moment.

There exist several other languages in the finno-ugric language group
which is quite closely related to finnish but which today is spoken
hardly by more than a dozen persons while many others are extinct.
(cause: soviet integration and relocation politics)


> make up the bulk of what is known in Norwegian as the "Finsk-Ugrisk" 
> language family (some term derivated from "Finnish-Hungarian" probably 
> exist in English as well), and I think this is an entire language family 
> on the same level as Indo-European languages being one family (I may be 
> wrong on placing the family so high in the language hierarky, though).

the placement is correct


best regards,

-jan johansson

Jim Thomas <jthomas@bittware.com> wrote in message news:<100824athudhobd@corp.supernews.com>...
> Siberian Husky wrote:
> > But please do not claim (all/the majority of) California ATMs ask
> > customers to press one extra key to use English menus again in the
> > meantime.
> 
> The ATM I use drives me bananas.  I consider it a great example of poor 
> user interface design.

Not really.  Read below.

> When I insert my card, it should know who I am.  It should ask me ONCE 
> what language I prefer and remember that.  It should provide a menu 
> option to change this selection, but not require me to make a selection 
> every time I use the stupid machine.

It is not so simple.  It depends on the local laws where the ATM is
installed.  I am not in the business of designing the
hardware/software for ATM machines, but when you insert your card into
an ATM, keep in mind that "probably" the only information read from
your card should be your card number or account number, and nothing
else, not even your name (unless it is already printed on your card).

The ATM only need the information to communicate with your bank to see
if your requested transaction should be honored (say, you want to
withdraw $60).  Nothing else needs to be available, and your bank does
not need to tell the ATM any information not directly relevant to your
transaction.

Your bank telling the ATM which language you prefer your menu to be is
"irrelevant".  Some people might even consider that a breach of
privacy.

Unless you are using the ATM in your own hometown, with your own bank,
and that would be another story.

Just to contribute 1 cent of my view in the ATM discussion.

> The next screen tells me to enter my PIN "number" [1] and press enter. 
> As soon as I enter the PIN, but before I can press enter, it logs me in. 
>   So if I don't have to press enter, why does it tell me to do that?
> 
> Maybe it's all part of their plan to drive me to use ATM's belonging to 
> other banks so they can charge me 3 bux.
> 
> Sorry about the gripe.
> 
> [1] That is, my Personal Identification Number number.