We have a lot of Indesign document which were created on a Mac, which 
need to be edited on Windows PCs and returned to the Mac users.

We have come across a problem, in that Mac and Windows versions of the 
same fonts have different naming conventions. e.g a font called "Meta 
Normal" on the Mac might be called "MetaNormal-Roman" on Windows. When 
the Indesign document is opened, Indesign claims the required fonts 
aren't installed.

How do we get round this? The documents have to be interchangeable as 
they will be going back and forth. And why on Earth would the font 
designers use one name on the Mac and another on Windows for the same 
font in the first place.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Me wrote:

> We have come across a problem, in that Mac and Windows versions of the
> same fonts have different naming conventions. e.g a font called "Meta
> Normal" on the Mac might be called "MetaNormal-Roman" on Windows. When
> the Indesign document is opened, Indesign claims the required fonts
> aren't installed.

Use "FontSubstitutes" in the Windows registry.

Andreas Prilop wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Me wrote:
> 
>> We have come across a problem, in that Mac and Windows versions of the
>> same fonts have different naming conventions. e.g a font called "Meta
>> Normal" on the Mac might be called "MetaNormal-Roman" on Windows. When
>> the Indesign document is opened, Indesign claims the required fonts
>> aren't installed.
> 
> Use "FontSubstitutes" in the Windows registry.
> 

Hmmm, nice idea, and does work for most apps. Unfortunately Indesign 
seems to think it knows better than the OS it runs on and do its own 
thing, and ignores the FontSubstitutes.

(Created a Word and an Indesign document using the same font, deleted 
the font, and added a FontSubstitutes entry. After a reboot Word uses 
the substitute font, Indesign says font not available).

Thanks

> We have come across a problem, in that Mac and Windows versions of the  
> same fonts have different naming conventions. e.g a font called "Meta  
> Normal" on the Mac might be called "MetaNormal-Roman" on Windows. When  
> the Indesign document is opened, Indesign claims the required fonts  
> aren't installed.

The origin of this problem is the font vendor FF/Meta Design. Too often PC  
fonts are incorrectly named (FF, Emigre, HTF). Compatible naming is best  
possible with OpenType fonts but InDesign can find matching Type1 fonts if  
named correctly. This is because ID reads 'Fullname' field of the font as  
system and some other programs read 'Menuname'.

But as it is best way is just find and replace (Find Font). You can make a  
script if you do it frequently.

I've never 'hacked' "FontSubstitutes" in registry as Andreas suggester so  
I do not know if it works or how to do it. If you do make a registry  
backup first.

Another option is to correct the naming using FontLab. Fontographer do not  
have required fields for correct naming which probably is one source of  
the problem.

Jukka

Armadillo wrote:
> 
>> We have come across a problem, in that Mac and Windows versions of the 
>> same fonts have different naming conventions. e.g a font called "Meta 
>> Normal" on the Mac might be called "MetaNormal-Roman" on Windows. When 
>> the Indesign document is opened, Indesign claims the required fonts 
>> aren't installed.
> 
> The origin of this problem is the font vendor FF/Meta Design. Too often 
> PC fonts are incorrectly named (FF, Emigre, HTF). Compatible naming is 
> best possible with OpenType fonts but InDesign can find matching Type1 
> fonts if named correctly. This is because ID reads 'Fullname' field of 
> the font as system and some other programs read 'Menuname'.
> 
> But as it is best way is just find and replace (Find Font). You can make 
> a script if you do it frequently.
> 
> I've never 'hacked' "FontSubstitutes" in registry as Andreas suggester 
> so I do not know if it works or how to do it. If you do make a registry 
> backup first.
> 
> Another option is to correct the naming using FontLab. Fontographer do 
> not have required fields for correct naming which probably is one source 
> of the problem.
> 
> Jukka

Thanks for the comments.

It seems fairly idiotic to me to name the fonts differently, surely 
sharing of documents must be common enough?

Find font seems to be a one hit solution - but do correct me if I'm 
wrong. Or is there a way to set a default font substitution for 
Indesign? Is scripting simple (I don't have Indesign to hand at the 
moment to look) - I can handle VBA well enough if it's similar to that.

Whilst I'm comfortable in the registry - I know my way around it far 
better than I do in Indesign for example - unfortunately Indesign 
ignores the FontSubstitutes key in the registry.

I'm a bit wary about hacking the font in Fontlab, in case of any legal 
repercussions down the line...?

> It seems fairly idiotic to me to name the fonts differently, surely  
> sharing of documents must be common enough?

Like said with OpenType it works, the file is the same too.

In Windows there has been four member limit in fontfamilies (regular,  
italic, bold and bold italic) while in Mac all the members could be under  
one family name. So it was not possible to have the same naming system.

Incorrectly named PC fonts, don't have families at all but all are 'one  
font families', so for example bold and italics do not work properly.

InDesign don't read the same name field as Windows, so hacking registry do  
not work.

> Find font seems to be a one hit solution - but do correct me if I'm  
> wrong. Or is there a way to set a default font substitution for  
> Indesign? Is scripting simple (I don't have Indesign to hand at the  
> moment to look) - I can handle VBA well enough if it's similar to that.

Scripts can be made either as VBA, javascript or AppleScript Javascript  
works in both platforms, Mac and Windows.

http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/scripting.html

> I'm a bit wary about hacking the font in Fontlab, in case of any legal  
> repercussions down the line...?

Font licenses usually allow editing font files for personal use. In fact  
just some time ago I got permission from FF to alter Meta for a customer.

About year ago I bought HTF Didot. The design is just devine but fonts  
(Type1) were incorrectly named and unhinted (!!). So I autohinted and  
renamed all the fonts in FontLab saved them as OpenType and sent back to  
HTF. I said that I will use those versions no matter what the license  
says. I have not heard from them since. :)

Jukka

The carbon-based entity that calls itself "Me" wrote ...
> Andreas Prilop wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Me wrote:
> >=20
> >> We have come across a problem, in that Mac and Windows versions of =
the
> >> same fonts have different naming conventions. e.g a font called =
"Meta
> >> Normal" on the Mac might be called "MetaNormal-Roman" on Windows. =
When
> >> the Indesign document is opened, Indesign claims the required fonts
> >> aren't installed.
> >=20
> > Use "FontSubstitutes" in the Windows registry.

Which was my first thought too.

> Hmmm, nice idea, and does work for most apps. Unfortunately Indesign=20
> seems to think it knows better than the OS it runs on and do its own=20
> thing, and ignores the FontSubstitutes.
>=20
> (Created a Word and an Indesign document using the same font, deleted=20
> the font, and added a FontSubstitutes entry. After a reboot Word uses=20
> the substitute font, Indesign says font not available).

I was wondering if InDesign does not have something like an internal
font substitution table. Programs like OpenOfficeOrg do have that AFAIK.

Andreas

>> (Created a Word and an Indesign document using the same font, deleted
>> the font, and added a FontSubstitutes entry. After a reboot Word uses
>> the substitute font, Indesign says font not available).
>
> I was wondering if InDesign does not have something like an internal
> font substitution table. Programs like OpenOfficeOrg do have that AFAIK.

If you use correctly made OpenType fonts by Adobe there will be no  
problems. I guess Adobe rather sells fonts than make substitution tables.  
;)

Jukka

"Armadillo" <reply@newsgroup.pls> schrieb=20

>=20
> >> (Created a Word and an Indesign document using the same font, =
deleted
> >> the font, and added a FontSubstitutes entry. After a reboot Word =
uses
> >> the substitute font, Indesign says font not available).
> >
> > I was wondering if InDesign does not have something like an internal
> > font substitution table. Programs like OpenOfficeOrg do have that =
AFAIK.
>=20
> If you use correctly made OpenType fonts by Adobe there will be no =20
> problems. I guess Adobe rather sells fonts than make substitution =
tables. =20
> ;)

LOL True enough. I guess the problem is you have not much control over
what fonts others use who send you the Mac documents :-)

Andreas

Andreas H�feld wrote:
> "Armadillo" <reply@newsgroup.pls> schrieb 
> 
>>>> (Created a Word and an Indesign document using the same font, deleted
>>>> the font, and added a FontSubstitutes entry. After a reboot Word uses
>>>> the substitute font, Indesign says font not available).
>>> I was wondering if InDesign does not have something like an internal
>>> font substitution table. Programs like OpenOfficeOrg do have that AFAIK.
>> If you use correctly made OpenType fonts by Adobe there will be no  
>> problems. I guess Adobe rather sells fonts than make substitution tables.  
>> ;)
> 
> LOL True enough. I guess the problem is you have not much control over
> what fonts others use who send you the Mac documents :-)
> 
> Andreas

Precisely the predicament I'm in, no control over the documents at all 
but expected to just wave my magic wand and fix this.

As far as I can tell there isn't an Indesign substitution table, but I'm 
no expert in this app.

Me wrote:

> Andreas H�feld wrote:
> 
>> "Armadillo" <reply@newsgroup.pls> schrieb
>>
>>>>> (Created a Word and an Indesign document using the same font, deleted
>>>>> the font, and added a FontSubstitutes entry. After a reboot Word uses
>>>>> the substitute font, Indesign says font not available).
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if InDesign does not have something like an internal
>>>> font substitution table. Programs like OpenOfficeOrg do have that 
>>>> AFAIK.
>>>
>>> If you use correctly made OpenType fonts by Adobe there will be no  
>>> problems. I guess Adobe rather sells fonts than make substitution 
>>> tables.  ;)
>>
>>
>> LOL True enough. I guess the problem is you have not much control over
>> what fonts others use who send you the Mac documents :-)
>>
>> Andreas
> 
> 
> Precisely the predicament I'm in, no control over the documents at all 
> but expected to just wave my magic wand and fix this.
> 
> As far as I can tell there isn't an Indesign substitution table, but I'm 
> no expert in this app.

No, but it does allow you to change fonts.  This is from the 
IndesignCS2 help file - another more detailed page is also available - 
go to HELP / Index / fonts / finding and changing :

Finding and changing fonts
Use the Find Font command to search for and list the fonts used 
throughout your document. You can then replace any fonts (except those 
in imported graphics) with any other fonts available on your system. 
Note the following:
A font name is listed once for its use in the layout and listed each 
time in imported graphics. For example, if you use the same font three 
times in the layout and three times in imported graphics, it will be 
listed in the Find Font dialog box four times�once for all layout 
instances, and then three more times for each imported graphic.
Find Font is not available in a story editor window.
Find Font does not affect text formatted with styles. You may want to 
update fonts used in styles manually.
The Find Font dialog box displays icons to indicate the kinds of fonts 
or font conditions, such as PostScript fonts , imported images , 
TrueType fonts , OpenType fonts , and missing fonts .

Use the Type > Find Font command to help ensure consistent output by 
analyzing font usage on pages and in imported graphics. To find and 
change specific text attributes, characters, or styles, use the Edit > 
Find/Change command instead.

  - Character

In article <4561ef40$0$8743$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
 Me <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

> Andreas Prilop wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Me wrote:
> > 
> >> We have come across a problem, in that Mac and Windows versions of the
> >> same fonts have different naming conventions. e.g a font called "Meta
> >> Normal" on the Mac might be called "MetaNormal-Roman" on Windows. When
> >> the Indesign document is opened, Indesign claims the required fonts
> >> aren't installed.
> > 
> > Use "FontSubstitutes" in the Windows registry.
> > 
> 
> Hmmm, nice idea, and does work for most apps. Unfortunately Indesign 
> seems to think it knows better than the OS it runs on and do its own 
> thing, and ignores the FontSubstitutes.

I'd say that Adobe was fairly well-justified in making this decision, 
since FontSubstitutes aren't really intended for professional document 
production. The OS could potentially be substituting a font with 
significant differences in metrics and/or kerning. I'd much rather be 
told by ID that the font was missing and given the chance to figure out 
how to best deal with the situation on my own.

Andr�

-- 
use rot thirteen to email
ntvfnnx (at) tznvy.pbz

"Ymir" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote ...

> I'd say that Adobe was fairly well-justified in making this decision,=20
> since FontSubstitutes aren't really intended for professional document =

> production. The OS could potentially be substituting a font with=20
> significant differences in metrics and/or kerning. I'd much rather be=20
> told by ID that the font was missing and given the chance to figure =
out=20
> how to best deal with the situation on my own.

IMHO making these decisions for the user and leaving him/her
no choice is not a programming philosophy intended for professionals.
That is rather the patronizing attitude I know from MS Corp.

Andreas

Andreas H�feld wrote:
> "Ymir" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote ...
> 
>> I'd say that Adobe was fairly well-justified in making this decision, 
>> since FontSubstitutes aren't really intended for professional document 
>> production. The OS could potentially be substituting a font with 
>> significant differences in metrics and/or kerning. I'd much rather be 
>> told by ID that the font was missing and given the chance to figure out 
>> how to best deal with the situation on my own.
> 
> IMHO making these decisions for the user and leaving him/her
> no choice is not a programming philosophy intended for professionals.
> That is rather the patronizing attitude I know from MS Corp.
> 
> Andreas

I guess it depends on the type of substitution... I'm sure one wouldn't 
want an automatic substitution from Helvetica to Arial in a professional 
document, but when it's a question of differently named fonts from the 
same designer representing the same typeface I think it makes more sense 
to be seamless. Of course I am not a professional designer, I'm just 
trying to make life easier for people who claim to be but find this a 
problem.

Character wrote:
> Me wrote:
> 
>> Andreas H�feld wrote:
>>
>>> "Armadillo" <reply@newsgroup.pls> schrieb
>>>
>>>>>> (Created a Word and an Indesign document using the same font, deleted
>>>>>> the font, and added a FontSubstitutes entry. After a reboot Word uses
>>>>>> the substitute font, Indesign says font not available).
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering if InDesign does not have something like an internal
>>>>> font substitution table. Programs like OpenOfficeOrg do have that 
>>>>> AFAIK.
>>>>
>>>> If you use correctly made OpenType fonts by Adobe there will be no  
>>>> problems. I guess Adobe rather sells fonts than make substitution 
>>>> tables.  ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL True enough. I guess the problem is you have not much control over
>>> what fonts others use who send you the Mac documents :-)
>>>
>>> Andreas
>>
>>
>> Precisely the predicament I'm in, no control over the documents at all 
>> but expected to just wave my magic wand and fix this.
>>
>> As far as I can tell there isn't an Indesign substitution table, but 
>> I'm no expert in this app.
> 
> No, but it does allow you to change fonts.  This is from the IndesignCS2 
> help file - another more detailed page is also available - go to HELP / 
> Index / fonts / finding and changing :
> 
> Finding and changing fonts
> Use the Find Font command to search for and list the fonts used 
> throughout your document. You can then replace any fonts (except those 
> in imported graphics) with any other fonts available on your system. 
> Note the following:
> A font name is listed once for its use in the layout and listed each 
> time in imported graphics. For example, if you use the same font three 
> times in the layout and three times in imported graphics, it will be 
> listed in the Find Font dialog box four times�once for all layout 
> instances, and then three more times for each imported graphic.
> Find Font is not available in a story editor window.
> Find Font does not affect text formatted with styles. You may want to 
> update fonts used in styles manually.
> The Find Font dialog box displays icons to indicate the kinds of fonts 
> or font conditions, such as PostScript fonts , imported images , 
> TrueType fonts , OpenType fonts , and missing fonts .
> 
> Use the Type > Find Font command to help ensure consistent output by 
> analyzing font usage on pages and in imported graphics. To find and 
> change specific text attributes, characters, or styles, use the Edit > 
> Find/Change command instead.
> 
>  - Character
> 
Whilst this seems perfect for an occasional substitution, in this case 
it involves a huge number of documents which need to travel in two 
directions - so they can't just be "fixed" if this causes problems for 
the originator of the documents.

The problem in this case is of lack of understanding of issues involved 
by those setting up the project, unfortunately someone has to clean up 
the mess!

Why not include the font(s) with each document?
Or do you have hundreds of back files to bring up to date?
As long as the font has a different name, it won't be confused
with its "briefer" or "longer" name when the computer seeks it.
***

Me wrote:

> We have a lot of Indesign document which were created on a Mac, which 
> need to be edited on Windows PCs and returned to the Mac users.
> 
> We have come across a problem, in that Mac and Windows versions of the 
> same fonts have different naming conventions. e.g a font called "Meta 
> Normal" on the Mac might be called "MetaNormal-Roman" on Windows. When 
> the Indesign document is opened, Indesign claims the required fonts 
> aren't installed.
> 
> How do we get round this? The documents have to be interchangeable as 
> they will be going back and forth. And why on Earth would the font 
> designers use one name on the Mac and another on Windows for the same 
> font in the first place.
> 
> Any ideas would be appreciated.

> Why not include the font(s) with each document?
> Or do you have hundreds of back files to bring up to date?
> As long as the font has a different name, it won't be confused
> with its "briefer" or "longer" name when the computer seeks it.

It is not the file name but the name embedded i the font. And there are  
several names in one font. Also OT files are only Mac/PC compatible.

Font licenses usally do not allow sending fonts with layout files.  
Especially if the document is edited in another computer and not just  
printed. Many people do not know this and I've had arguments with a few  
customers who have insested getting the fonts too. Most of them, however,  
will understand if explained.

Jukka

In article <ejvfr4$2hqn$1@ulysses.news.tiscali.de>,
 Andreas H�feld <sendnospam@vorsichtbissig.de> wrote:

> "Ymir" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote ...
> 
> > I'd say that Adobe was fairly well-justified in making this decision, 
> > since FontSubstitutes aren't really intended for professional document 
> > production. The OS could potentially be substituting a font with 
> > significant differences in metrics and/or kerning. I'd much rather be 
> > told by ID that the font was missing and given the chance to figure out 
> > how to best deal with the situation on my own.
> 
> IMHO making these decisions for the user and leaving him/her
> no choice is not a programming philosophy intended for professionals.
> That is rather the patronizing attitude I know from MS Corp.

But ID does give you a choice -- when it encounters a missing font it 
notifies you and gives you the option of replacing it with something 
else (at least it does in CS1).

Andr�

-- 
use rot thirteen to email
ntvfnnx (at) tznvy.pbz

The carbon-based entity that calls itself "Me" wrote ...

> > IMHO making these decisions for the user and leaving him/her
> > no choice is not a programming philosophy intended for =
professionals.
> > That is rather the patronizing attitude I know from MS Corp.
> >=20
> > Andreas
>=20
> I guess it depends on the type of substitution... I'm sure one =
wouldn't=20
> want an automatic substitution from Helvetica to Arial in a =
professional=20
> document, but when it's a question of differently named fonts from the =

> same designer representing the same typeface I think it makes more =
sense=20
> to be seamless.=20

Well it would depend on you to either have substitution of Helvetica
with Arial or not, that's the point.

Andreas

I assumed that the PCs and MACs were in-house...but now I'm interested 
in most license restrictions as far as sharing computers in one environment.
If I owned a PC and a MAC, would I be prohibited from using a purchased 
typeface on BOTH machines with only one license?
*************

Armadillo wrote:
> 
>> Why not include the font(s) with each document?
>> Or do you have hundreds of back files to bring up to date?
>> As long as the font has a different name, it won't be confused
>> with its "briefer" or "longer" name when the computer seeks it.
> 
> 
> It is not the file name but the name embedded i the font. And there are  
> several names in one font. Also OT files are only Mac/PC compatible.
> 
> Font licenses usally do not allow sending fonts with layout files.  
> Especially if the document is edited in another computer and not just  
> printed. Many people do not know this and I've had arguments with a few  
> customers who have insested getting the fonts too. Most of them, 
> however,  will understand if explained.
> 
> Jukka

> I assumed that the PCs and MACs were in-house...but now I'm interested  
> in most license restrictions as far as sharing computers in one  
> environment.
> If I owned a PC and a MAC, would I be prohibited from using a purchased  
> typeface on BOTH machines with only one license?

Font licenses vary by the foundry (or manufacturer/vendor).

For example Adobe gives 5 computer license for fonts bough online (10 or  
20 for FontFolio) but smaller manufacturers usually give just one install  
(on can buy more by install). Also there may be restrictions about how  
many priners could be used. So sending fonts with a document to a service  
bureau may in fact violate licensing terms, which of course is ridiculous.

Adobe requires that all the computers should be owned by the same company  
or person. This is now more clearly stated but for example the FontFolio8  
license was a bit different and less strict.

If you buy Adobe OpenType font which is Mac/PC compatible it can be used  
in both platforms. I do not know if format conversion is prohibited but  
modifying font is often allowed for personal use, meaning that you cannot  
sell or distribute the altered font.

Font licenses are of course available at websites but they often are  
somewhat cryptic.

Jukka

Thanks for "licensing 101". I would have to assume that as long as any
service bureau is not flagrantly abusing the privilege of having the 
fonts (and even keeping them for future customers) and using them only
to accommodate customers jobs, most font foundries would be hard pressed
to find a court which would sympathize with a suit. Service bureaus can
certainly not be worth a damn if they are required to own or pay fees 
for the use of a license for all the fonts they might need.
*********

Armadillo wrote:
> 
>> I assumed that the PCs and MACs were in-house...but now I'm 
>> interested  in most license restrictions as far as sharing computers 
>> in one  environment.
>> If I owned a PC and a MAC, would I be prohibited from using a 
>> purchased  typeface on BOTH machines with only one license?
> 
> 
> Font licenses vary by the foundry (or manufacturer/vendor).
> 
> For example Adobe gives 5 computer license for fonts bough online (10 
> or  20 for FontFolio) but smaller manufacturers usually give just one 
> install  (on can buy more by install). Also there may be restrictions 
> about how  many priners could be used. So sending fonts with a document 
> to a service  bureau may in fact violate licensing terms, which of 
> course is ridiculous.
> 
> Adobe requires that all the computers should be owned by the same 
> company  or person. This is now more clearly stated but for example the 
> FontFolio8  license was a bit different and less strict.
> 
> If you buy Adobe OpenType font which is Mac/PC compatible it can be 
> used  in both platforms. I do not know if format conversion is 
> prohibited but  modifying font is often allowed for personal use, 
> meaning that you cannot  sell or distribute the altered font.
> 
> Font licenses are of course available at websites but they often are  
> somewhat cryptic.
> 
> Jukka