Until recently all the computers in our company could be relied on to 
have Monotype Sorts installed. I believe this TTF was installed with 
Office rather than with the Windows OS.

The most recent computers that came in (from a different manufacturer, 
but I doubt that's the issue) all have the latest and greatest releases 
of Windows and Office, including a lot of OpenType fonts, but Monotype 
Sorts is not there. This is a problem, because our standard PowerPoint 
template that everyone in the company is s'pozed to use gets its bullets 
from Monotype Sorts. But when such a presentation is played on one of 
the new computers, the fancy bullets are replaced by regular dot 
bullets. (I know this sounds absurd to anyone who doesn't work in a 
corporate environment--bear with me.)

So today I did something that is probably a violation of some license 
agreement or other; I distributed a copy of Monotype Sorts to everyone 
affected and told them how to install it. That is, from my perspective, 
the problem is solved until the next shipment of new computers comes in 
or the license cops come through, whichever occurs first.

But what I was curious about is why Microsoft didn't account for this 
deletion and include some glyph-for-glyph substitute font.

This is kinda piggybacking on the Zapf Dingbats thread, I know; and if 
there is an appropriate substitute font already installed, I can 
distribute a script to edit the substitution table. But I don't have one 
of the new computers to play around with; so if someone already knows 
the answer, I'd appreciate it.

Dick Margulis wrote:

> Until recently all the computers in our company could be relied on to 
> have Monotype Sorts installed. I believe this TTF was installed with 
> Office rather than with the Windows OS.

Monotype Sorts has been included with the following MS products 
(according to their website) :

  Access 97 SR2
  Greetings 99
  Home Publishing 99
  Office 2000 Premium
  Office 4.3 Professional
  Office 97 Small Business Edition SR2
  Office 97 SR1a
  PhotoDraw 2000
  Picture It! 2000
  Picture It! 2002
  Picture It! 98
  Publisher 97
  TrueType Font Pack (Remember that one?)

It has also been included with:

   Lotus Word Pro
   some hp Printer Drivers

The MS list hasn't been updated for some time.  I checked the Office 
2003 font selection and the group with XP from my CD's and it isn't 
there. There doesn't seem to be any equivalent.

Unless you think that "Don't ask don't tell" is a valid approach, you 
might contact MS directly to ask about the morality of using fonts that 
were included with previously purchased products that have been 
otherwise destroyed. There is certainly no moral ambiguity, but we're 
talking about Microsoft and the Law :)

  - Character



> The most recent computers that came in (from a different manufacturer, 
> but I doubt that's the issue) all have the latest and greatest releases 
> of Windows and Office, including a lot of OpenType fonts, but Monotype 
> Sorts is not there. This is a problem, because our standard PowerPoint 
> template that everyone in the company is s'pozed to use gets its bullets 
> from Monotype Sorts. But when such a presentation is played on one of 
> the new computers, the fancy bullets are replaced by regular dot 
> bullets. (I know this sounds absurd to anyone who doesn't work in a 
> corporate environment--bear with me.)

I very much understand that environment :)
We had a Corporate Standards manual that ... well, I won't get into it 
here. It was a work of art. (in the good sense)


> So today I did something that is probably a violation of some license 
> agreement or other; I distributed a copy of Monotype Sorts to everyone 
> affected and told them how to install it. That is, from my perspective, 
> the problem is solved until the next shipment of new computers comes in 
> or the license cops come through, whichever occurs first.
> 
> But what I was curious about is why Microsoft didn't account for this 
> deletion and include some glyph-for-glyph substitute font.

> This is kinda piggybacking on the Zapf Dingbats thread, I know; and if 
> there is an appropriate substitute font already installed, I can 
> distribute a script to edit the substitution table. But I don't have one 
> of the new computers to play around with; so if someone already knows 
> the answer, I'd appreciate it.

Afterthought: Actually, there's no moral or legal ambiguity at all. I 
can simply have all the software developers and QA people uninstall the 
font (fully licensed) from their machines, bringing our total number of 
instances in the company well below the number of licenses we own. Those 
two groups never use PowerPoint for anything (I am delighted to report), 
so they won't miss it.

Character wrote:

> Dick Margulis wrote:
> 
>> Until recently all the computers in our company could be relied on to 
>> have Monotype Sorts installed. I believe this TTF was installed with 
>> Office rather than with the Windows OS.
> 
> 
> Monotype Sorts has been included with the following MS products 
> (according to their website) :
> 
>  Access 97 SR2
>  Greetings 99
>  Home Publishing 99
>  Office 2000 Premium
>  Office 4.3 Professional
>  Office 97 Small Business Edition SR2
>  Office 97 SR1a
>  PhotoDraw 2000
>  Picture It! 2000
>  Picture It! 2002
>  Picture It! 98
>  Publisher 97
>  TrueType Font Pack (Remember that one?)
> 
> It has also been included with:
> 
>   Lotus Word Pro
>   some hp Printer Drivers
> 
> The MS list hasn't been updated for some time.  I checked the Office 
> 2003 font selection and the group with XP from my CD's and it isn't 
> there. There doesn't seem to be any equivalent.
> 
> Unless you think that "Don't ask don't tell" is a valid approach, you 
> might contact MS directly to ask about the morality of using fonts that 
> were included with previously purchased products that have been 
> otherwise destroyed. There is certainly no moral ambiguity, but we're 
> talking about Microsoft and the Law :)
> 
>  - Character
> 
> 
> 
>> The most recent computers that came in (from a different manufacturer, 
>> but I doubt that's the issue) all have the latest and greatest 
>> releases of Windows and Office, including a lot of OpenType fonts, but 
>> Monotype Sorts is not there. This is a problem, because our standard 
>> PowerPoint template that everyone in the company is s'pozed to use 
>> gets its bullets from Monotype Sorts. But when such a presentation is 
>> played on one of the new computers, the fancy bullets are replaced by 
>> regular dot bullets. (I know this sounds absurd to anyone who doesn't 
>> work in a corporate environment--bear with me.)
> 
> 
> I very much understand that environment :)
> We had a Corporate Standards manual that ... well, I won't get into it 
> here. It was a work of art. (in the good sense)
> 
> 
>> So today I did something that is probably a violation of some license 
>> agreement or other; I distributed a copy of Monotype Sorts to everyone 
>> affected and told them how to install it. That is, from my 
>> perspective, the problem is solved until the next shipment of new 
>> computers comes in or the license cops come through, whichever occurs 
>> first.
>>
>> But what I was curious about is why Microsoft didn't account for this 
>> deletion and include some glyph-for-glyph substitute font.
> 
> 
>> This is kinda piggybacking on the Zapf Dingbats thread, I know; and if 
>> there is an appropriate substitute font already installed, I can 
>> distribute a script to edit the substitution table. But I don't have 
>> one of the new computers to play around with; so if someone already 
>> knows the answer, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> 

On Fri, 21 May 2004 20:33:49 -0400, Dick Margulis wrote
(in article <10at85atba57654@news.supernews.com>):

> Until recently all the computers in our company could be relied on to 
> have Monotype Sorts installed. I believe this TTF was installed with 
> Office rather than with the Windows OS.

If a machine had Application X (or perhaps even an operating system) that 
came with Sorts, and you upgraded and did NOT get Sorts, you could probably 
use it. Then answer may be in the license agreement of the old application as 
to whether its license includes the flotsam and jetsam that came with it.

Tim Murray wrote:

> On Fri, 21 May 2004 20:33:49 -0400, Dick Margulis wrote
> (in article <10at85atba57654@news.supernews.com>):
> 
> 
>>Until recently all the computers in our company could be relied on to 
>>have Monotype Sorts installed. I believe this TTF was installed with 
>>Office rather than with the Windows OS.
> 
> 
> If a machine had Application X (or perhaps even an operating system) that 
> came with Sorts, and you upgraded and did NOT get Sorts, you could probably 
> use it. Then answer may be in the license agreement of the old application as 
> to whether its license includes the flotsam and jetsam that came with it.

Didn't you mean to say fontsam and jetsam?

Sorry about that :)

Character wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> Didn't you mean to say fontsam and jetsam?
> 
> Sorry about that :)
>
As well you should be. Now go stand in the corner and compose something!

"Dick Margulis" <margulisd@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:10at85atba57654@news.supernews.com...
> Until recently all the computers in our company could be relied on to have 
> Monotype Sorts installed. I believe this TTF was installed with Office 
> rather than with the Windows OS.
>
> The most recent computers that came in (from a different manufacturer, but 
> I doubt that's the issue) all have the latest and greatest releases of 
> Windows and Office, including a lot of OpenType fonts, but Monotype Sorts 
> is not there. This is a problem, because our standard PowerPoint template 
> that everyone in the company is s'pozed to use gets its bullets from 
> Monotype Sorts. But when such a presentation is played on one of the new 
> computers, the fancy bullets are replaced by regular dot bullets. (I know 
> this sounds absurd to anyone who doesn't work in a corporate 
> environment--bear with me.)
>
> So today I did something that is probably a violation of some license 
> agreement or other; I distributed a copy of Monotype Sorts to everyone 
> affected and told them how to install it. That is, from my perspective, 
> the problem is solved until the next shipment of new computers comes in or 
> the license cops come through, whichever occurs first.
>
> But what I was curious about is why Microsoft didn't account for this 
> deletion and include some glyph-for-glyph substitute font.
>
> This is kinda piggybacking on the Zapf Dingbats thread, I know; and if 
> there is an appropriate substitute font already installed, I can 
> distribute a script to edit the substitution table. But I don't have one 
> of the new computers to play around with; so if someone already knows the 
> answer, I'd appreciate it.


This is most puzzling to me. It was my understanding that fonts were carried 
from one Office version to another, in part, to prevent this sort of 
problem: a font not bein present on the system with resulting font 
substitution problems. However, if I was mistaken, it would not be the first 
time.

A quick check indicated that Office versions up to Office 2000 supplied 
Monotype Sorts. Office XP and 2003 are more recent releases. To check each 
of these two further, I copied each CD's files onto my hard drive in turn, 
flattened the file structure, extracted all files from the CAB files and 
checked all TrueType fonts. No MT Sorts. (These particular fonts are sourced 
from Agfa Monotype.) Also, I have e-mailed a couple of contacts for comment. 
I do not expect a reply until Tues or Wed. If anything comes of it, I shall 
post the results.

~Tom

Tim Murray <no-spam@thankyou.com> wrote in message news:<0001HW.BCD43B73000F7E25F02845B0@newsgroups.bellsouth.net>...
> On Fri, 21 May 2004 20:33:49 -0400, Dick Margulis wrote
> (in article <10at85atba57654@news.supernews.com>):
> 
> > Until recently all the computers in our company could be relied on to 
> > have Monotype Sorts installed. I believe this TTF was installed with 
> > Office rather than with the Windows OS.
> 
> If a machine had Application X (or perhaps even an operating system) that 
> came with Sorts, and you upgraded and did NOT get Sorts, you could probably 
> use it. Then answer may be in the license agreement of the old application as 
> to whether its license includes the flotsam and jetsam that came with it.

If you upgrade, all rights to the version you used to get the upgrade
price may be revoked. Adobe for instance has said that those upgrading
from Font Folio 8  to a later version could not use the fonts
(Berthold, I think) in earlier versions if they were not included in
the new one. So read the terms carefully.

Also sprach/Thus spake Tom Ferguson:

> A quick check indicated that Office versions up to Office 2000
> supplied Monotype Sorts. Office XP and 2003 are more recent releases.
> To check each of these two further, I copied each CD's files onto my
> hard drive in turn, flattened the file structure, extracted all files
> from the CAB files and checked all TrueType fonts. No MT Sorts.

As it was already mentioned, MT Sorts came with Lotus Smartsuite
products. In the late nineties that one came as a whole or in parts
with many cover CDs. The fonts are not uninstalled when you uninstall
the application. And no one can expect from you the technical expertise 
to be able to track what fonts a setup installs on your machine and to later
uninstall them manually (if the license agreement expects that from you
at all). I think I have more legal licenses to use MT Sorts than I ever owned
computers :-)


> (These particular fonts are sourced from Agfa Monotype.) Also, I have
> e-mailed a couple of contacts for comment. I do not expect a reply
> until Tues or Wed. If anything comes of it, I shall post the results.

I don't think they care much for a font that went out with so many bulk
licenses. I suspect the use of MT Sorts is simply discouraged because
of Unicode. Many of the symbols have their Unicode values by now
and they are not compatible with MT Sorts.

Andreas
-- 
To reply by mail add "from usenet" in subject line,
other mails will be filtered automatically.

> "Dick Margulis" <margulisd@comcast.net> wrote in message 
> news:10at85atba57654@news.supernews.com... 
> 
> This is most puzzling to me. It was my understanding that fonts were carried 
> from one Office version to another, in part, to prevent this sort of 
> problem: a font not bein present on the system with resulting font 
> substitution problems. However, if I was mistaken, it would not be the first 
> time.

Seems I recall reading somewhere that good old Verdana will be dropped, or 
was dropped, from some Microsoft product(s) for Macintosh.

Andreas H�feld wrote:

[snip]
> 
> I don't think they care much for a font that went out with so many bulk
> licenses. I suspect the use of MT Sorts is simply discouraged because
> of Unicode. Many of the symbols have their Unicode values by now
> and they are not compatible with MT Sorts.
> 
> Andreas

Andreas,

Thank you. That comment set me off on a quest. I found an email link on 
the Microsoft Typography site and asked my question there.

After some back and forth, I asked whether the bullet symbol I need, an 
equilateral triangle pointing north, is an available Unicode character.

Simon Daniels (simonda@windows.microsoft.com) suggested "How about 25B2 
in Arial Unicode MS? Type 25B2 and then hold down Alt and press X."

Well, I just tried that (but on a Windows 98 machine and a Windows NT 
machine), and apparently I'm doing something wrong, or the instructions 
aren't quite right, because on both machines all I get is "25B2."

Anyone want to tell me how I'm _actually_ supposed to access Unicode 
characters?

Thanks,

Dick

In article <10b3n0san0cdjfc@news.supernews.com>
	   margulisd@comcast.net "Dick Margulis" writes:

> Simon Daniels (simonda@windows.microsoft.com) suggested "How about 25B2
> in Arial Unicode MS? Type 25B2 and then hold down Alt and press X."
>
> Well, I just tried that (but on a Windows 98 machine and a Windows NT
> machine), and apparently I'm doing something wrong, or the instructions
> aren't quite right, because on both machines all I get is "25B2."

If it works as DOS did, you enter a decimal codepoint value, not
hex.  (0x25B2 is 9650.)  IIRC, you must use the side number keys,
NumLock setting being unimportant.  I tried it on OS/2's Virtual
DOS and that's how it works.  IBM's VDOS is an accurate DOSalike.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Andrew Stephenson wrote:

> In article <10b3n0san0cdjfc@news.supernews.com>
> 	   margulisd@comcast.net "Dick Margulis" writes:
> 
> 
>>Simon Daniels (simonda@windows.microsoft.com) suggested "How about 25B2
>>in Arial Unicode MS? Type 25B2 and then hold down Alt and press X."
>>
>>Well, I just tried that (but on a Windows 98 machine and a Windows NT
>>machine), and apparently I'm doing something wrong, or the instructions
>>aren't quite right, because on both machines all I get is "25B2."
> 
> 
> If it works as DOS did, you enter a decimal codepoint value, not
> hex.  (0x25B2 is 9650.)  IIRC, you must use the side number keys,
> NumLock setting being unimportant.  I tried it on OS/2's Virtual
> DOS and that's how it works.  IBM's VDOS is an accurate DOSalike.
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
> 

Thanks for trying to help. Unfortunately that didn't work, either.

{snip}
>
> After some back and forth, I asked whether the bullet symbol I need, an 
> equilateral triangle pointing north, is an available Unicode character.
>
> Simon Daniels (simonda@windows.microsoft.com) suggested "How about 25B2 in 
> Arial Unicode MS? Type 25B2 and then hold down Alt and press X."
>
> Well, I just tried that (but on a Windows 98 machine and a Windows NT 
> machine), and apparently I'm doing something wrong, or the instructions 
> aren't quite right, because on both machines all I get is "25B2."
>
> Anyone want to tell me how I'm _actually_ supposed to access Unicode 
> characters?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dick
>

Typing 25b2 followed immediately by pressing  Alt x inserts the equilateral 
triangle here.in Word 2003. 25B2 also works but pressing X (shift x) does 
not. Neither does it with a space between the Unicode value and the pressing 
of the Alt key.

As you probably know, if you want to use this symbol frequently, you can set 
up an auto correct entry. e.g.  Replace <symbol> with t/. Then, each time 
you type t/ you will get the symbol. [Replace <symbol> with the triangle.

~Tom 

Tom Ferguson wrote:
> {snip}
> 
>>After some back and forth, I asked whether the bullet symbol I need, an 
>>equilateral triangle pointing north, is an available Unicode character.
>>
>>Simon Daniels (simonda@windows.microsoft.com) suggested "How about 25B2 in 
>>Arial Unicode MS? Type 25B2 and then hold down Alt and press X."
>>
>>Well, I just tried that (but on a Windows 98 machine and a Windows NT 
>>machine), and apparently I'm doing something wrong, or the instructions 
>>aren't quite right, because on both machines all I get is "25B2."
>>
>>Anyone want to tell me how I'm _actually_ supposed to access Unicode 
>>characters?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Dick
>>
> 
> 
> Typing 25b2 followed immediately by pressing  Alt x inserts the equilateral 
> triangle here.in Word 2003. 25B2 also works but pressing X (shift x) does 
> not. Neither does it with a space between the Unicode value and the pressing 
> of the Alt key.
> 
> As you probably know, if you want to use this symbol frequently, you can set 
> up an auto correct entry. e.g.  Replace <symbol> with t/. Then, each time 
> you type t/ you will get the symbol. [Replace <symbol> with the triangle.
> 
> ~Tom 
> 
> 


Tom,

Thanks. I guess the problem is that I'm not in Word 2003.

Getting back to the original problem, we do rolling updates in our 
company, so at any given time there are at least two (in reality three) 
OS/Office combinations in active use. I need to have a PowerPoint 
template that generates presentations that can be opened on XP/2003 
systems and also on earlier systems in such a way that the bullets are 
the same. As I cannot even create an instance of the (Arial Unicode MS) 
bullet in Office 2000, it seems doubtful I'll achieve that goal. I mean 
I have the font, but the triangle in question does not seem to be 
accessible, and I don't know enough about writing macros to work this 
puzzle out. The other open question is whether the triangle you see is 
the one I'm looking for. The Monotype Sorts lowercase s triangle is 
baseline-aligned and cap height. Does that describe the one you're 
looking at?

Dick

{snip}

> Tom,
>
> Thanks. I guess the problem is that I'm not in Word 2003.
>
> Getting back to the original problem, we do rolling updates in our
> company, so at any given time there are at least two (in reality three)
> OS/Office combinations in active use. I need to have a PowerPoint template
> that generates presentations that can be opened on XP/2003 systems and
> also on earlier systems in such a way that the bullets are the same. As I
> cannot even create an instance of the (Arial Unicode MS) bullet in Office
> 2000, it seems doubtful I'll achieve that goal. I mean I have the font,
> but the triangle in question does not seem to be accessible, and I don't
> know enough about writing macros to work this puzzle out. The other open
> question is whether the triangle you see is the one I'm looking for. The
> Monotype Sorts lowercase s triangle is baseline-aligned and cap height.
> Does that describe the one you're looking at?
>
> Dick


Hi;

Yes, the keyboard shortcut to paste the equilateral triangle only works as
described in Word XP and 2003. However, in Word 2000 you can navigate to
"Insert Symbol" and select it from the resulting "map" for insertion. There
are four such triangles, each of slightly less than capitol height and 
differing in
orientation. (Font:Normal Text   Subset:Geometric Shapes). This glyph is 
present in recent versions of Times New Roman and Arial and other core 
fonts. Arial Unicode is not required, specifically.

As for the problem with presentations opening on XP and 2003 systems, there
should be no problem for those combinations that support Unicode (Windows
2000 and later with Word 2000 and later). If compatibility must include
earlier versions of either, best not to rely on Unicode support for success.
That would imply that the font used for the bullets must include the symbol
used within the ASCII/ANSI range. Such a glyph of capitol height is present 
in Wingdings 3 (Bigelow and Holmes).

[Webdings 3 is supplied with MS applications including Access 2000, Access 
97 SR2, Excel 2000, FrontPage 2000, Golf 1999 Edition, Greetings 99, Home 
Publishing 99, Office 2000 Premium, Office 97 Small Business Edition SR2, 
Office 97 SR1a, Office Professional Edition 2003, Outlook 2000, PhotoDraw 
2000, Picture It! 2000, Picture It! 2002, Picture It! 98, Plus! 98, 
PowerPoint 2000, Publisher 2000, Publisher 97, Publisher 98, TrueType Font 
Pack 2, Word 2000, Works 2002]

WP MathA, included with Corel Word Perfect and which is included in a 
certain import filter pack for Word from Microsoft, possibly nla, also 
contains four equilateral triangle glyphs but not of Capitol size. WP 
IconicSymbolsA, also supplied with Corel Word Perfect has one that looks 
correct.

Alas, I cannot think of a way that would cause an appropriate glyph from the 
appropriate font to be substituted for the glyph from Monotype Sorts if and 
when that font is not installed on the target system. Far simpler, give 
sufficient licenses, to push the font onto the systems that lack it.

~Tom

Tom,

Y'know, for years I've tried to be a helpful contributor to this group 
and others, figuring what goes around comes around and eventually I'll 
have a question someone can help me with. When I have posed the 
occasional question (not just in this group), if I've gotten any 
responses at all they've often been either blank stares (What you 
talkin' bout, Willis?) or completely off the mark. You've just made up 
for all those other times, though, with your thorough--maybe 
encyclopedic would be a better description--answer. Thanks very much for 
taking the time.

Unfortunately, the triangles in the Geometric Shapes section are all 
quite small--nice for a typeset page, but not much help on a projection 
screen in an auditorium. I was hoping the triangle I'm looking for was 
somewhere else in the Unicode set and that I had missed it before; but 
you've confirmed that I had the right one. The Webdings 3 triangle is 
fine, but, again, that font isn't distributed, according to your list, 
with XP/2003.

I guess pushing the old font is going to have to be the solution for 
now. Then I'll just redesign the template for next year without the 
triangles, or I'll create a one-glyph font for the purpose (cheaper than 
licensing a commercial font for everyone).

Thanks again for your effort!

Dick

PS: We don't have any machines that are pre-Unicode. In fact my NT 4 
machines may be the oldest ones in the shop, and that's just because I 
run so much oddball software (from other people's perspective) and have 
so many legacy files that upgrading is going to both expensive and 
risky. Right now it ain't broke, so I'm not inclined to fix it.

Tom Ferguson wrote:

> {snip}
> 
> 
>>Tom,
>>
>>Thanks. I guess the problem is that I'm not in Word 2003.
>>
>>Getting back to the original problem, we do rolling updates in our
>>company, so at any given time there are at least two (in reality three)
>>OS/Office combinations in active use. I need to have a PowerPoint template
>>that generates presentations that can be opened on XP/2003 systems and
>>also on earlier systems in such a way that the bullets are the same. As I
>>cannot even create an instance of the (Arial Unicode MS) bullet in Office
>>2000, it seems doubtful I'll achieve that goal. I mean I have the font,
>>but the triangle in question does not seem to be accessible, and I don't
>>know enough about writing macros to work this puzzle out. The other open
>>question is whether the triangle you see is the one I'm looking for. The
>>Monotype Sorts lowercase s triangle is baseline-aligned and cap height.
>>Does that describe the one you're looking at?
>>
>>Dick
> 
> 
> 
> Hi;
> 
> Yes, the keyboard shortcut to paste the equilateral triangle only works as
> described in Word XP and 2003. However, in Word 2000 you can navigate to
> "Insert Symbol" and select it from the resulting "map" for insertion. There
> are four such triangles, each of slightly less than capitol height and 
> differing in
> orientation. (Font:Normal Text   Subset:Geometric Shapes). This glyph is 
> present in recent versions of Times New Roman and Arial and other core 
> fonts. Arial Unicode is not required, specifically.
> 
> As for the problem with presentations opening on XP and 2003 systems, there
> should be no problem for those combinations that support Unicode (Windows
> 2000 and later with Word 2000 and later). If compatibility must include
> earlier versions of either, best not to rely on Unicode support for success.
> That would imply that the font used for the bullets must include the symbol
> used within the ASCII/ANSI range. Such a glyph of capitol height is present 
> in Wingdings 3 (Bigelow and Holmes).
> 
> [Webdings 3 is supplied with MS applications including Access 2000, Access 
> 97 SR2, Excel 2000, FrontPage 2000, Golf 1999 Edition, Greetings 99, Home 
> Publishing 99, Office 2000 Premium, Office 97 Small Business Edition SR2, 
> Office 97 SR1a, Office Professional Edition 2003, Outlook 2000, PhotoDraw 
> 2000, Picture It! 2000, Picture It! 2002, Picture It! 98, Plus! 98, 
> PowerPoint 2000, Publisher 2000, Publisher 97, Publisher 98, TrueType Font 
> Pack 2, Word 2000, Works 2002]
> 
> WP MathA, included with Corel Word Perfect and which is included in a 
> certain import filter pack for Word from Microsoft, possibly nla, also 
> contains four equilateral triangle glyphs but not of Capitol size. WP 
> IconicSymbolsA, also supplied with Corel Word Perfect has one that looks 
> correct.
> 
> Alas, I cannot think of a way that would cause an appropriate glyph from the 
> appropriate font to be substituted for the glyph from Monotype Sorts if and 
> when that font is not installed on the target system. Far simpler, give 
> sufficient licenses, to push the font onto the systems that lack it.
> 
> ~Tom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

In article <10bbgcum3lf2360@news.supernews.com>
	   margulisd@comcast.net "Dick Margulis" writes:

> Unfortunately, the triangles in the Geometric Shapes section
> are all quite small--[...]

Can you specify a larger font size for those particular symbols?
--
Andrew Stephenson

Andrew Stephenson wrote:
> In article <10bbgcum3lf2360@news.supernews.com>
> 	   margulisd@comcast.net "Dick Margulis" writes:
> 
> 
>>Unfortunately, the triangles in the Geometric Shapes section
>>are all quite small--[...]
> 
> 
> Can you specify a larger font size for those particular symbols?
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
> 


Andrew,

It's not that simple. If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you 
will see that this problem arises in a PowerPoint template. PowerPoint 
has, um, kinda unsophisticated typographic controls, to be as polite 
about it as I can. You can increase the size of the bullet by specifying 
a percentage (150%, for example) of the original size, but this does not 
lower the bottom of the triangle to the baseline, and it doesn't enlarge 
it from the centerpoint, either. So you end up with this large triangle 
flying in the middle of the line and looking really strange. There are 
no controls for making the bullet a subscript (to lower the baseline of 
the enlarged triangle), either.

No, I think this was just one of those unappealable decisions by the 
Office team, and I'm on my own for a workaround.

Thanks, though.

Dick

Dick:

One other thought on the topic:

PowerPoint has the ability to embed fonts.

My Office 97 CD includes MT Sorts, and its embedding flags are "fully 
installable". This is a fully legitimate solution, which allows the 
recipient of a file with an embedded font to install that font.

I don't know if PP actually installs such embedded fonts or if some 
other action is required; I DO know that if you embed an installable 
font in a Word document, that font gets installed on the object system 
as soon as the document is opened (if it's not already there).

   - Character

Character wrote:

> Dick:
> 
> One other thought on the topic:
> 
> PowerPoint has the ability to embed fonts.
> 
> My Office 97 CD includes MT Sorts, and its embedding flags are "fully 
> installable". This is a fully legitimate solution, which allows the 
> recipient of a file with an embedded font to install that font.
> 
> I don't know if PP actually installs such embedded fonts or if some 
> other action is required; I DO know that if you embed an installable 
> font in a Word document, that font gets installed on the object system 
> as soon as the document is opened (if it's not already there).
> 
>   - Character
> 
> 

Learn something new every day. I looked up embedding fonts in PowerPoint 
  2000 Help, and, sure enough, there it was (not anywhere obvious, but I 
followed the bouncing ball and found it). I saved a second copy of the 
template with fonts embedded (not sure it actually works on template 
files); now I'll have to test that on a new machine and see if it works.

Thanks for the suggestion.

"Character" <Char@cters.italic> wrote in message 
news:EDotc.16339672$Of.2725253@news.easynews.com...
> Dick:
>
> One other thought on the topic:
>
> PowerPoint has the ability to embed fonts.
>
> My Office 97 CD includes MT Sorts, and its embedding flags are "fully 
> installable". This is a fully legitimate solution, which allows the 
> recipient of a file with an embedded font to install that font.
>
> I don't know if PP actually installs such embedded fonts or if some other 
> action is required; I DO know that if you embed an installable font in a 
> Word document, that font gets installed on the object system as soon as 
> the document is opened (if it's not already there).
>
>   - Character
>
Ahhh!. SAometimes the best solution not only is the simplest but has been 
right before one all the while.

~Tom



> 

Tom Ferguson wrote:

> "Character" <Char@cters.italic> wrote in message 
> news:EDotc.16339672$Of.2725253@news.easynews.com...
> 
>>Dick:
>>
>>One other thought on the topic:
>>
>>PowerPoint has the ability to embed fonts.
>>
>>My Office 97 CD includes MT Sorts, and its embedding flags are "fully 
>>installable". This is a fully legitimate solution, which allows the 
>>recipient of a file with an embedded font to install that font.
>>
>>I don't know if PP actually installs such embedded fonts or if some other 
>>action is required; I DO know that if you embed an installable font in a 
>>Word document, that font gets installed on the object system as soon as 
>>the document is opened (if it's not already there).
>>
>>  - Character
>>
> 
> Ahhh!. SAometimes the best solution not only is the simplest but has been 
> right before one all the while.
> 
> ~Tom
> 
>

Not so fast. I followed Character's instructions and resaved my template 
(originally 82 KB file size) with font embedding turned on (should 
include several fonts, including the 76 KB Monotype Sorts). The resaved 
template is, in total, 76 KB. So methinks you can't embed fonts in a 
template. Rats, foiled again!

Dick Margulis wrote:
> 
> 
> Tom Ferguson wrote:
> 
>> "Character" <Char@cters.italic> wrote in message 
>> news:EDotc.16339672$Of.2725253@news.easynews.com...
>>
>>> Dick:
>>>
>>> One other thought on the topic:
>>>
>>> PowerPoint has the ability to embed fonts.
>>>
>>> My Office 97 CD includes MT Sorts, and its embedding flags are "fully 
>>> installable". This is a fully legitimate solution, which allows the 
>>> recipient of a file with an embedded font to install that font.
>>>
>>> I don't know if PP actually installs such embedded fonts or if some 
>>> other action is required; I DO know that if you embed an installable 
>>> font in a Word document, that font gets installed on the object 
>>> system as soon as the document is opened (if it's not already there).
>>>
>>>  - Character
>>>
>>
>> Ahhh!. SAometimes the best solution not only is the simplest but has 
>> been right before one all the while.
>>
>> ~Tom
>>
>>
> 
> Not so fast. I followed Character's instructions and resaved my template 
> (originally 82 KB file size) with font embedding turned on (should 
> include several fonts, including the 76 KB Monotype Sorts). The resaved 
> template is, in total, 76 KB. So methinks you can't embed fonts in a 
> template. Rats, foiled again!

Embedded fonts are encoded and compressed - the fact that the whole file 
is smaller says that something else occurred too (maybe some garbage 
collection?). Did you embed the full font or just a subset (subsetting 
will only include those characters actually used).

You might try sending it to a clean system somewhere to see if it worked.

If it doesn't, can you at some point send everyone who needs it a Word 
document (with the FULL embedded font - not a subset)? That should 
legally give them the font to use.

  - Character

Character wrote:

> 
> 
> Dick Margulis wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Tom Ferguson wrote:
>>
>>> "Character" <Char@cters.italic> wrote in message 
>>> news:EDotc.16339672$Of.2725253@news.easynews.com...
>>>
>>>> Dick:
>>>>
>>>> One other thought on the topic:
>>>>
>>>> PowerPoint has the ability to embed fonts.
>>>>
>>>> My Office 97 CD includes MT Sorts, and its embedding flags are 
>>>> "fully installable". This is a fully legitimate solution, which 
>>>> allows the recipient of a file with an embedded font to install that 
>>>> font.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if PP actually installs such embedded fonts or if some 
>>>> other action is required; I DO know that if you embed an installable 
>>>> font in a Word document, that font gets installed on the object 
>>>> system as soon as the document is opened (if it's not already there).
>>>>
>>>>  - Character
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ahhh!. SAometimes the best solution not only is the simplest but has 
>>> been right before one all the while.
>>>
>>> ~Tom
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not so fast. I followed Character's instructions and resaved my 
>> template (originally 82 KB file size) with font embedding turned on 
>> (should include several fonts, including the 76 KB Monotype Sorts). 
>> The resaved template is, in total, 76 KB. So methinks you can't embed 
>> fonts in a template. Rats, foiled again!
> 
> 
> Embedded fonts are encoded and compressed - the fact that the whole file 
> is smaller says that something else occurred too (maybe some garbage 
> collection?). Did you embed the full font or just a subset (subsetting 
> will only include those characters actually used).
> 
> You might try sending it to a clean system somewhere to see if it worked.
> 
> If it doesn't, can you at some point send everyone who needs it a Word 
> document (with the FULL embedded font - not a subset)? That should 
> legally give them the font to use.
> 
>  - Character
> 

Character,

You know way more about font files than I do (orders of magnitude more), 
but my impression was that they're already pretty much compressed, 
aren't they? I'm sure you're right about the garbage collection, which 
explains the reduction from 82 KB to 76 KB. But it's hard to believe 
that the resulting _Microsoft Office PowerPoint_ template (emphasis 
added to remind you just who we're talking about here), contains three 
or four embedded fonts.

Nonetheless, I'll certainly try your strategies next time I'm in the 
office and have access to a test system.

Thanks,

Dick

Dick Margulis wrote:

> 
> 
> Character wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Dick Margulis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Ferguson wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Character" <Char@cters.italic> wrote in message 
>>>> news:EDotc.16339672$Of.2725253@news.easynews.com...
>>>>
>>>>> Dick:
>>>>>
>>>>> One other thought on the topic:
>>>>>
>>>>> PowerPoint has the ability to embed fonts.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Office 97 CD includes MT Sorts, and its embedding flags are 
>>>>> "fully installable". This is a fully legitimate solution, which 
>>>>> allows the recipient of a file with an embedded font to install 
>>>>> that font.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if PP actually installs such embedded fonts or if some 
>>>>> other action is required; I DO know that if you embed an 
>>>>> installable font in a Word document, that font gets installed on 
>>>>> the object system as soon as the document is opened (if it's not 
>>>>> already there).
>>>>>
>>>>>  - Character
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ahhh!. SAometimes the best solution not only is the simplest but has 
>>>> been right before one all the while.
>>>>
>>>> ~Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not so fast. I followed Character's instructions and resaved my 
>>> template (originally 82 KB file size) with font embedding turned on 
>>> (should include several fonts, including the 76 KB Monotype Sorts). 
>>> The resaved template is, in total, 76 KB. So methinks you can't embed 
>>> fonts in a template. Rats, foiled again!
>>
>>
>>
>> Embedded fonts are encoded and compressed - the fact that the whole 
>> file is smaller says that something else occurred too (maybe some 
>> garbage collection?). Did you embed the full font or just a subset 
>> (subsetting will only include those characters actually used).
>>
>> You might try sending it to a clean system somewhere to see if it worked.
>>
>> If it doesn't, can you at some point send everyone who needs it a Word 
>> document (with the FULL embedded font - not a subset)? That should 
>> legally give them the font to use.
>>
>>  - Character
>>
> 
> Character,
> 
> You know way more about font files than I do (orders of magnitude more), 
> but my impression was that they're already pretty much compressed, 
> aren't they? I'm sure you're right about the garbage collection, which 
> explains the reduction from 82 KB to 76 KB. But it's hard to believe 
> that the resulting _Microsoft Office PowerPoint_ template (emphasis 
> added to remind you just who we're talking about here), contains three 
> or four embedded fonts.

Oh. You mean THAT Microsoft :)

FWIW, TTF's normally compress about 50% when zipped - I just tried 
MTSorts and it only compressed 32%, from 76K to 52K.

OK, I now did a real test:

1) Installed MT Sorts (it hadn't been)
2) Opened Powerpoint (for the first time - I've never used it)
3) Changed the title slide to be three characters from MT Sorts
4) Saved it as a template (.POT file - those guys at MS are really 
smokin')  - BTW - it was 53K
5) Closed Powerpoint
6) Uninstalled MT Sorts
7) Opened Powerpoint
8) Opened the template, and YESSS!! it displayed my creation as intended!

What it did NOT do was permanently install the font.  How to do that is 
another question.

Now I've cured my insomnia (it's 3:42 AM here in California); I'll be 
back tomorrow sometime.

  - Character


> Nonetheless, I'll certainly try your strategies next time I'm in the 
> office and have access to a test system.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dick
> 

Character wrote:
> 
> Dick Margulis wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Character wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dick Margulis wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom Ferguson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Character" <Char@cters.italic> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:EDotc.16339672$Of.2725253@news.easynews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One other thought on the topic:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PowerPoint has the ability to embed fonts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Office 97 CD includes MT Sorts, and its embedding flags are 
>>>>>> "fully installable". This is a fully legitimate solution, which 
>>>>>> allows the recipient of a file with an embedded font to install 
>>>>>> that font.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know if PP actually installs such embedded fonts or if 
>>>>>> some other action is required; I DO know that if you embed an 
>>>>>> installable font in a Word document, that font gets installed on 
>>>>>> the object system as soon as the document is opened (if it's not 
>>>>>> already there).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  - Character
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahhh!. SAometimes the best solution not only is the simplest but 
>>>>> has been right before one all the while.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~Tom
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not so fast. I followed Character's instructions and resaved my 
>>>> template (originally 82 KB file size) with font embedding turned on 
>>>> (should include several fonts, including the 76 KB Monotype Sorts). 
>>>> The resaved template is, in total, 76 KB. So methinks you can't 
>>>> embed fonts in a template. Rats, foiled again!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Embedded fonts are encoded and compressed - the fact that the whole 
>>> file is smaller says that something else occurred too (maybe some 
>>> garbage collection?). Did you embed the full font or just a subset 
>>> (subsetting will only include those characters actually used).
>>>
>>> You might try sending it to a clean system somewhere to see if it 
>>> worked.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't, can you at some point send everyone who needs it a 
>>> Word document (with the FULL embedded font - not a subset)? That 
>>> should legally give them the font to use.
>>>
>>>  - Character
>>>
>>
>> Character,
>>
>> You know way more about font files than I do (orders of magnitude 
>> more), but my impression was that they're already pretty much 
>> compressed, aren't they? I'm sure you're right about the garbage 
>> collection, which explains the reduction from 82 KB to 76 KB. But it's 
>> hard to believe that the resulting _Microsoft Office PowerPoint_ 
>> template (emphasis added to remind you just who we're talking about 
>> here), contains three or four embedded fonts.
> 
> 
> Oh. You mean THAT Microsoft :)
> 
> FWIW, TTF's normally compress about 50% when zipped - I just tried 
> MTSorts and it only compressed 32%, from 76K to 52K.
> 
> OK, I now did a real test:
> 
> 1) Installed MT Sorts (it hadn't been)
> 2) Opened Powerpoint (for the first time - I've never used it)
> 3) Changed the title slide to be three characters from MT Sorts
> 4) Saved it as a template (.POT file - those guys at MS are really 
> smokin')  - BTW - it was 53K
> 5) Closed Powerpoint
> 6) Uninstalled MT Sorts
> 7) Opened Powerpoint
> 8) Opened the template, and YESSS!! it displayed my creation as intended!
> 
> What it did NOT do was permanently install the font.  How to do that is 
> another question.
> 
> Now I've cured my insomnia (it's 3:42 AM here in California); I'll be 
> back tomorrow sometime.
> 
>  - Character
> 
> 
>> Nonetheless, I'll certainly try your strategies next time I'm in the 
>> office and have access to a test system.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dick
>>
> 

An unrelated thread on another list led me to the solution to the whole 
thing. MS Mincho has the character I'm looking for, and it ships with 
both Office 2000 and Windows XP, so everybody has it. I updated the 
PowerPoint template and we're good to go.

Dick Margulis wrote:

> An unrelated thread on another list led me to the solution to the whole 
> thing. MS Mincho has the character I'm looking for, and it ships with 
> both Office 2000 and Windows XP, so everybody has it. I updated the 
> PowerPoint template and we're good to go.

Ahhhhh.... the magic words:  Problem Solved!
Glad to hear it!

  - Character

{Snip}

Good to hear. And a simple solution to boot.

Nontheless, I'm still curious about Character's font-imbedding idea.

~Tom 

I should be in the office some time later this week. I'll let you know 
what I discover when I test that.

Tom Ferguson wrote:

> {Snip}
> 
> Good to hear. And a simple solution to boot.
> 
> Nontheless, I'm still curious about Character's font-imbedding idea.
> 
> ~Tom 
> 
>