I am assisting my family in building a new home. We would like to
automate a number of things (Thermostat, Security, small number of
lights, etc). I have been poking around a bit on the web and there
seems to be some limitations and issues with X10, although it seems to
be the dominant standard. In our case we can add what ever dedicated
wiring is necessary for some other the other standards with little
additional cost during the construction phase.  What would be the
optimum solution ???

Brad Jones wrote:

> I am assisting my family in building a new home. We would like to
> automate a number of things (Thermostat, Security, small number of
> lights, etc). I have been poking around a bit on the web and there
> seems to be some limitations and issues with X10, although it seems to
> be the dominant standard. In our case we can add what ever dedicated
> wiring is necessary for some other the other standards with little
> additional cost during the construction phase.  What would be the
> optimum solution ???
> 

Security system should be hard-wired.
This makes it far easier to make it battery-backed-up, lower power 
consumption too, if you're enviro-friendly.
Plus it's independant (like you still have running water and phones if the 
power goes out).

I also understand (but have not verified it as true), that if you have say 
10 people in different rooms, motion detectors would overwhelm the 
communications via X-10, as each sensor is saying "someone here" - on a 
hardwired system, and you wouldn't really get any valid communications thru 
like lights on/off due to the log-jam of signals.

If you have "dedicated" lights or appliances (ie dryer, furnace, hot-water 
tank, garage-door, outdoor power outlets, garden) for some areas, you could 
probably hard-wire the X10 at/near the fuse box, plus you could add line 
filterering between your X10 at the fuse box and the actual lights or 
whatever if it happens to be a noisy variety (plus if that variety of X-10 
hums, atleast it's confined to where the fuse box is located). Some 
companies make X10 with 4 or so outputs, which would make them good 
candidates for wiring near the fuse box instead of at the light/whatever.

Anyhow, I'm no installer, but due to electronics background, that would be 
my opinion.... This advice is free and worth every penny ;-)

Hi Brad,

There are several ways you can approach this job.  Each of the vendors here
has his own favorite.  I carry OnQ (like HAI Omni except it includes
structured wiring), Napco Gemini, HomeSeer and a number of others.

The Napco Gemini P9600 is an extremely flexible and powerful, home
automation friendly security system.  It can handle from 8 to 96 sensors in
multiple partitions and control many basic HA services by itself.  The
system can trigger setback thermostats, operate your lawn irrigation, turn
on lights, etc.  If you add a Napco GEM-RS232 Kit the panel can then talk to
a PC running a more powerful home automation app such as HomeSeer.

HomeSeer can run virtually everything in the house.  It provides a web-based
interface which allows you to inspect and control as much as you want via
the Internet.  There's much more to Napco Gemini and HomeSeer than I can
write in a simple post here.  You can review both of these products on their
respective websites or on mine at the following link:

http://www.bass-home.com/gotosystem.cfm?item=323

As to wiring, regardless which system you select you should run wires to
every outside door and accessible window.  Also run wires for motion
detectors and glass breakage detectors, freeze warning sensors if you're in
the North, humidity alarm if you have a wine cooler, flood / water leak
detectors in the basement, smoke detectors, etc.

Be sure to run a CAT5 cable from the wiring closet to each thermostat
location in addition to the control cable that the HVAC installer or
electrician will run.  There are a variety of opinions as to how many CAT5,
RG6 and other cables to run.  Don't forget to run wiring now for multi-room
audio should you decide you want that later (prices on this stuff are much
better today than they were even a few years ago).  Run CAT5 and 16/4
speaker wire to a volume control location in each room.  From there run 16/2
to each speaker and continue the CAT5 over to one of the speakers.  It makes
no difference which one but be consistent.

Don't waste money on bundled (structured) cable.  It costs more, is less
flexible for design, is harder to pull and has a much wider bend radius than
individual cables.

Run three pieces of 2" conduit from the basement or wiring closet to the
attic.  Keep these a couple of feet apart.  Place a covered box at each end
of each conduit.  These are for future expansion of alarm, data and power.

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota � Florida � 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>

> I am assisting my family in building a new home. We would like to
> automate a number of things (Thermostat, Security, small number of
> lights, etc). I have been poking around a bit on the web and there
> seems to be some limitations and issues with X10, although it seems to
> be the dominant standard. In our case we can add what ever dedicated
> wiring is necessary for some other the other standards with little
> additional cost during the construction phase.  What would be the
> optimum solution ???

Robert,
    Thanks for the detailed information. What type of wire is required for
the stuff bellow ??/

Brad
>
> As to wiring, regardless which system you select you should run wires to
> every outside door and accessible window.  Also run wires for motion
> detectors and glass breakage detectors, freeze warning sensors if you're
in
> the North, humidity alarm if you have a wine cooler, flood / water leak
> detectors in the basement, smoke detectors, etc.
>

Virtually all of the alarm devices (except fire) can use 22/4 solid core
cable.  Door and window "contacts" (magnetic sensors) only need 2-conductor
but the price difference is negligible and it's nice having an extra pair of
wires in case a staple goes awry or you decide to add something else later.

For smoke detectors and other fire alarm stuff you need "power limited fire
alarm" cable.  This stuff usually has a red jacket and is marked for the
purpose.  Use 18/4 fire cable virtually everywhere except Rhode Island where
code requires 16-gauge.

Most alarm keypads (the consoles where you enter your code) should be wired
with 22/4.  Run a CAT5 cable to them as well.  That will take care of future
enhancements for the next 10 to 15 years or so.

Alarm sirens should be wired using 18/2 stranded cable.  Don't use zip cord
though.  Use jacketed cable labeled for in-wall use.  Use the same cable for
the plug-in transformer that powers the alarm.  Run a 14- or 12-gauge ground
cable.  Green colored THHN is fine for this.  Keep it as short as possible
but make sure it's properly grounded.  Make gentle, radiused turns in the
ground cable -- not hard right turns.

Be sure to run a separate 22/4 or CAT5 cable between the alarm control panel
(the brain of the system) and the telephone company's "demarc" -- the gray
box on the side of the house where the telco's outside cables connect to
your inside cables.  I have numerous articles on this in my FAQ website.
You may find them helpful in planning your system and doing the wiring.
There are several pages devoted to the telephone connection, how to install
it and how to protect it from tampering.

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota � Florida � 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>

Brad Jones wrote:
> Robert,
>     Thanks for the detailed information. What type of wire is required for
> the stuff bellow ??/
>
> Brad
> >
> > As to wiring, regardless which system you select you should run wires to
> > every outside door and accessible window.  Also run wires for motion
> > detectors and glass breakage detectors, freeze warning sensors if you're
> in
> > the North, humidity alarm if you have a wine cooler, flood / water leak
> > detectors in the basement, smoke detectors, etc.
> >

There is a wonderful new alternative to X-10!

http://homeseer.com/press/releases/press_release_zwave.shtml

Regards,

Rick



On 9 Sep 2003 08:32:40 -0700, bdjones@synopsys.com (Brad Jones) wrote:

>I am assisting my family in building a new home. We would like to
>automate a number of things (Thermostat, Security, small number of
>lights, etc). I have been poking around a bit on the web and there
>seems to be some limitations and issues with X10, although it seems to
>be the dominant standard. In our case we can add what ever dedicated
>wiring is necessary for some other the other standards with little
>additional cost during the construction phase.  What would be the
>optimum solution ???

> There is a wonderful new alternative to X-10!
> http://homeseer.com/press/releases/press_release_zwave.shtml

Way to go, Rick!  I spoke with Rich Helmke about this today.  It sounds like
a great solution.  It was also nice to learn that "Uncle" Phil is back at
ACT where he is needed.  As soon as you have the USB interface ready I'll
post the Z Wave stuff for ordering on www.Bass-Home.com.

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota � Florida � 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>

"Rick Tinker" wrote ...
>
> There is a wonderful new alternative to X-10!
> http://homeseer.com/press/releases/press_release_zwave.shtml

I won't hold my breath for wireless alternatives to X-10 to be reasonably
priced AND reliable AND secure.

--
Bill Fuhrmann
Remove DELETE to reply

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:32:25 -0400, B Fuhrmann wrote:

> "Rick Tinker" wrote ...
>>
>> There is a wonderful new alternative to X-10!
>> http://homeseer.com/press/releases/press_release_zwave.shtml
> 
> I won't hold my breath for wireless alternatives to X-10 to be reasonably
> priced AND reliable AND secure.

It's got an 8052 based core and runs in the 900MHz band, so it ain't all
that expensive.

Secure?  Well their web pages do a great job of emulating glossy marketing
materials with little detail.  They wave the DES and 3DES buzzwords but
offer little else.

John

~$35 for plug-in modules - certainly better than where some full-featured X-10
products started.

The devices only talk to/from a specific "house" or network address assigned
to the master controller (typically a handheld remote).  After teaching these
codes to other controllers, which are secondary controllers, they can do
control.  To teach them, you must copy them from the master.  To add a node to
your network, you must put the master in learning mode and press a button on
the device to add.  So from an architectural standpoint it is secure.  Now if
a network "sniffer" got within 100-150ft of the devices and started scanning
to pick up the network address, that is another story.  I have to dive deeper
into the protocol to check that.

The whole network address uniqueness and pressing a button to add something to
the network is certainly light years ahead of what X-10 has provided, but I
can't say for sure it is truly secure.   I will try to find out and post a
response here.


Regards,


Rick

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:32:25 -0500, "B Fuhrmann"
<b-fuhrmann-usenet@mplsfridayDELETEskate.com> wrote:

>"Rick Tinker" wrote ...
>>
>> There is a wonderful new alternative to X-10!
>> http://homeseer.com/press/releases/press_release_zwave.shtml
>
>I won't hold my breath for wireless alternatives to X-10 to be reasonably
>priced AND reliable AND secure.

Hmmm,  perhaps a 128bit uniq address, with security available to run on 
top of it?  It needn't send all teh info at once in one big "package"
but use smaller package-lets,  perhaps "packets".

We could use a protocol, perhaps the Internet Protocol. That new one.
6!  And it's got QOS and high security, and....

ah, it'll never fly.

Rick Tinker wrote:
> ~$35 for plug-in modules - certainly better than where some full-featured X-10
> products started.
> 
> The devices only talk to/from a specific "house" or network address assigned
> to the master controller (typically a handheld remote).  After teaching these
> codes to other controllers, which are secondary controllers, they can do
> control.  To teach them, you must copy them from the master.  To add a node to
> your network, you must put the master in learning mode and press a button on
> the device to add.  So from an architectural standpoint it is secure.  Now if
> a network "sniffer" got within 100-150ft of the devices and started scanning
> to pick up the network address, that is another story.  I have to dive deeper
> into the protocol to check that.
> 
> The whole network address uniqueness and pressing a button to add something to
> the network is certainly light years ahead of what X-10 has provided, but I
> can't say for sure it is truly secure.   I will try to find out and post a
> response here.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Rick
> 
> On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:32:25 -0500, "B Fuhrmann"
> <b-fuhrmann-usenet@mplsfridayDELETEskate.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Rick Tinker" wrote ...
>>
>>>There is a wonderful new alternative to X-10!
>>>http://homeseer.com/press/releases/press_release_zwave.shtml
>>
>>I won't hold my breath for wireless alternatives to X-10 to be reasonably
>>priced AND reliable AND secure.
> 
> 

Thank you for all the excellent information so far. I have  a couple of
additional questions.

1)Hardwiring to control the lights: It seems the type of switches I need to
use are ACL (advanced lighting control). Can you point me to vendors of
these type of switches. (Are they independant of control system ??)

2) Controller. I would like to use something that is easily controlled via a
computer (Most likely linux). I think I would be looking to control about
10-15 lights and 2 thermostats. What system has the best flexability. Also,
can these functions as well as alarm be combined into a single controller ??

Thanks

"Brad Jones" <bdjones@synopsys.com> wrote in message
news:f928b742.0309151405.41ffa5e0@posting.google.com...
> Thank you for all the excellent information so far. I have  a couple of
> additional questions.
>
> 1)Hardwiring to control the lights: It seems the type of switches I need
to
> use are ACL (advanced lighting control). Can you point me to vendors of
> these type of switches. (Are they independant of control system ??)

ALC is one brand of hardwired lighting control.  It is fully integrated into
HAI line of controllers (www.homeauto.com).  There are others brands out
there (Lutron, Touchplate, Lightolier, Centralite...).  A good place to look
for prices for HAI and ALC is www.worthdist.com  PDF catalog.

> 2) Controller. I would like to use something that is easily controlled via
a
> computer (Most likely linux). I think I would be looking to control about
> 10-15 lights and 2 thermostats. What system has the best flexability.
Also,
> can these functions as well as alarm be combined into a single controller
??

The only single box I know that does hardwired lighting, thermostats, and
security is the HAI line.  It supports X10, Lightolier Compose (another PLC
variant), and ALC.  It has an Ethernet port and 3 serial ports for
connectivity.  It is programmable in its own right.  There is a line of
compatible thermostats.  It is a UL listed security panel.  There is also an
mailing list with vendor support.

My opinion is that using a computer to monitor and send inputs is good, but
that the actual control logic (if any) should not depend on the computer
being up.  Others here disagree.  If you decide to go PC based, there are a
number of other lighting options open to you, since every major vendor has
some sort of serial interface capability.  However, you may be writing a
fair amount of control code on your own.

The existing commercial software packages that work with the HAI panels all
run under Windows.  I don't know if they run under WINE.  There are also a
couple of *nix HA types who post here who may have better answers for you
about what is already running on Linux.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:05:29 -0400, Brad Jones wrote:

> 1)Hardwiring to control the lights: It seems the type of switches I need to
> use are ACL (advanced lighting control). Can you point me to vendors of
> these type of switches. (Are they independant of control system ??)

<trivia>ALC used to mean AMP Lighting Control until AMP got absorbed by
the Tyco juggernaut and OnQ was spun off...</trivia>

As Southern pointed out, the only controllers that integrate the ALC
devices are those sold or OEM'd by HAI. (HAI, OnQ's HMS, Aegis).  I am
under the impression that one or two other people licensed the protocol
from them, but I've not heard who or even if.

OnQ now makes (made?) a device that will bridge an RS-232 serial port to the
ALC network where the computer/controller running the serial port acted
like the ALC master.

Prior to this I had spent some time R-E'ing^W um, Researching the network
interface and protocol.  While I didn't get everything, I did get enough 
to be useful (to me).  Ken Reneris picked up where I left off, but I'm not
sure he ever made his pages public.  Unfortunately, I felt compelled to 
remove my pages to maintain my current employment.

Regardless, you can pretty much reconstruct my information by watching the
codes used in the BranchTech utility that ships with the interface.

John

HomeSeer talks to all of the HAI OEM'd boxes through add-on plug-ins.
HomeSeer has an open API for building interfaces to other hardware and
software packages - e.g. there is a plug-in that supports the Windows Media
Player.

There are over 6,000 users of HomeSeer and it is reliable enough to be used in
a commercial environment - although to keep that reliability under Windows,
the system is running Windows 2000 or XP and is mostly dedicated to the task
of home automation - e.g. no games or regular interactive use.

So to mini-summarize what has been mentioned:
	- X10: Pure X10, very inexpensive technology
	- Leviton: Pure X10, improved upon with some technology, good to moderate
           cost.
	- Compose: Pure X10, improved upon through firewall segmentation, moderate
           cost.
	- PCS: Pure X10, although developing a variant of X10 called UPB that is
           suppose to overcome many X10 issues, should be good to moderate
           cost.
	- ALC: Hardwired, supported in OnQ systems which are popular and well
           established, moderate cost.
	- Lutron: Hardwired, usually expensive hence it is used in commercial
           environments and high-end home theatres
	- Centralite: Hardwired, no information on cost.
	- Lutron RadioRA: Wireless, somewhat expensive (Yes, expensive is a
           relative term)
	- ZWave: Wireless, cost is on par with higher quality X10 products

Not an all inclusive list as there are others (e.g. Vantage) but a decent list
of the low to pseudo high-end systems.

Currently HomeSeer has existing support options for all but Centralite and
hardwired Lutron, but the capability exists in HomeSeer to write an interface
to either of those systems.


Regards,


Rick



On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:45:07 GMT, PlasmaJohn <nntp@projectplasma.com.nouce>
wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:05:29 -0400, Brad Jones wrote:
>
>> 1)Hardwiring to control the lights: It seems the type of switches I need to
>> use are ACL (advanced lighting control). Can you point me to vendors of
>> these type of switches. (Are they independant of control system ??)
>
><trivia>ALC used to mean AMP Lighting Control until AMP got absorbed by
>the Tyco juggernaut and OnQ was spun off...</trivia>
>
>As Southern pointed out, the only controllers that integrate the ALC
>devices are those sold or OEM'd by HAI. (HAI, OnQ's HMS, Aegis).  I am
>under the impression that one or two other people licensed the protocol
>from them, but I've not heard who or even if.
>
>OnQ now makes (made?) a device that will bridge an RS-232 serial port to the
>ALC network where the computer/controller running the serial port acted
>like the ALC master.
>
>Prior to this I had spent some time R-E'ing^W um, Researching the network
>interface and protocol.  While I didn't get everything, I did get enough 
>to be useful (to me).  Ken Reneris picked up where I left off, but I'm not
>sure he ever made his pages public.  Unfortunately, I felt compelled to 
>remove my pages to maintain my current employment.
>
>Regardless, you can pretty much reconstruct my information by watching the
>codes used in the BranchTech utility that ships with the interface.
>
>John

"Rick Tinker" <RTinker@HomeSeer.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
news:_ND9b.14876$1D5.14214@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>
> Currently HomeSeer has existing support options for all but Centralite and
> hardwired Lutron, but the capability exists in HomeSeer to write an
interface
> to either of those systems.

We almost had a job where the approach was going to be
Centralite/HAI/Homeseer.  It fit our ground rules since Centralite has its
own ability to handle buttons and macros.  As I remember, the protocol did
not look that hard.  We were just about to start looking for a programmer to
do the plugin when the customer got transferred out of the area.

Centralite at the time it was the lowest cost central controlled lighting
system.  For anyone who is building, wants hardwired control, and does not
like ALC, its worth a look.

Hi Brad,

At the risk of being flamed.......

If you're interested in an HAI OmniLT with surface mount keypad - new
in box - I have one for $300.00 + $10 shipping via FedEx ground.  

This includes the controller/cabinet, surface mount keypad, RJ-31 jack
and manual.

The OmniLT does ALC and PLC.  It supports 2 thermostats, 4-consoles
(keypads) and is expandable to 26 security zones.  

I'm an individual, not a dealer.

I can accept Paypal.

John




On 15 Sep 2003 15:05:29 -0700, bdjones@synopsys.com (Brad Jones)
wrote:

>Thank you for all the excellent information so far. I have  a couple of
>additional questions.
>
>1)Hardwiring to control the lights: It seems the type of switches I need to
>use are ACL (advanced lighting control). Can you point me to vendors of
>these type of switches. (Are they independant of control system ??)
>
>2) Controller. I would like to use something that is easily controlled via a
>computer (Most likely linux). I think I would be looking to control about
>10-15 lights and 2 thermostats. What system has the best flexability. Also,
>can these functions as well as alarm be combined into a single controller ??
>
>Thanks

For email - delete the _ characters from
the email address listed in tag line.

Nice summary. One correction, though:

> 	- PCS: Pure X10, although developing a variant of X10 called UPB that is
>            suppose to overcome many X10 issues, should be good to moderate
>            cost.

UPB is a actually a completely different technology from X10. The only
similarity is that it uses the powerline to transmit.

Robert,

I understand running Cat5 w/ speaker wire to the volume control, but
why should I run Cat5 all the way to one speaker?

Thanks,
Scott

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<XY-dnblAg9K338OiRVn-gg@giganews.com>...
> Hi Brad,
> 
> There are several ways you can approach this job.  Each of the vendors here
> has his own favorite.  I carry OnQ (like HAI Omni except it includes
> structured wiring), Napco Gemini, HomeSeer and a number of others.
> 
> The Napco Gemini P9600 is an extremely flexible and powerful, home
> automation friendly security system.  It can handle from 8 to 96 sensors in
> multiple partitions and control many basic HA services by itself.  The
> system can trigger setback thermostats, operate your lawn irrigation, turn
> on lights, etc.  If you add a Napco GEM-RS232 Kit the panel can then talk to
> a PC running a more powerful home automation app such as HomeSeer.
> 
> HomeSeer can run virtually everything in the house.  It provides a web-based
> interface which allows you to inspect and control as much as you want via
> the Internet.  There's much more to Napco Gemini and HomeSeer than I can
> write in a simple post here.  You can review both of these products on their
> respective websites or on mine at the following link:
> 
> http://www.bass-home.com/gotosystem.cfm?item=323
> 
> As to wiring, regardless which system you select you should run wires to
> every outside door and accessible window.  Also run wires for motion
> detectors and glass breakage detectors, freeze warning sensors if you're in
> the North, humidity alarm if you have a wine cooler, flood / water leak
> detectors in the basement, smoke detectors, etc.
> 
> Be sure to run a CAT5 cable from the wiring closet to each thermostat
> location in addition to the control cable that the HVAC installer or
> electrician will run.  There are a variety of opinions as to how many CAT5,
> RG6 and other cables to run.  Don't forget to run wiring now for multi-room
> audio should you decide you want that later (prices on this stuff are much
> better today than they were even a few years ago).  Run CAT5 and 16/4
> speaker wire to a volume control location in each room.  From there run 16/2
> to each speaker and continue the CAT5 over to one of the speakers.  It makes
> no difference which one but be consistent.
> 
> Don't waste money on bundled (structured) cable.  It costs more, is less
> flexible for design, is harder to pull and has a much wider bend radius than
> individual cables.
> 
> Run three pieces of 2" conduit from the basement or wiring closet to the
> attic.  Keep these a couple of feet apart.  Place a covered box at each end
> of each conduit.  These are for future expansion of alarm, data and power.
> 
> Regards,
> Robert
> 
> =============================>
> Bass Home Electronics, Inc
> 2291 Pine View Circle
> Sarasota � Florida � 34231
> 877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
> 941-925-9747 Fax
> 941-232-0791 Wireless
> Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
> http://www.bass-home.com
> =============================>
> 
> > I am assisting my family in building a new home. We would like to
> > automate a number of things (Thermostat, Security, small number of
> > lights, etc). I have been poking around a bit on the web and there
> > seems to be some limitations and issues with X10, although it seems to
> > be the dominant standard. In our case we can add what ever dedicated
> > wiring is necessary for some other the other standards with little
> > additional cost during the construction phase.  What would be the
> > optimum solution ???

> Robert,
>
> I understand running Cat5 w/ speaker wire to the volume control, but
> why should I run Cat5 all the way to one speaker?

Hi Scott,

The CAT5 to the speaker is in case you decide to install an IR receiver
behind the grill.  You don't actually need the whole CAT5 for IR.  Three
wires are all that most systems need.  But since the CAT5 is already there
from the control to the volume it's simplest to just leave a loop at the
volume control / touchpad location and carry it around to the speaker.

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota � Florida � 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>