f



Is RB 2005 really good or really bad?

Hi,

I upgraded to RB 2005 pro on the Mac. The plan was to port my Fortran
program to RB on a Mac and then deploy it to Windows and Linux. Did I
do something extremely stupid and wastefull or are other posts too
critical.

Nervously,

Jim Klein
0
Jim
6/16/2005 1:09:11 AM
comp.lang.basic.realbasic 2744 articles. 0 followers. spam127 (8) is leader. Post Follow

62 Replies
936 Views

Similar Articles

[PageSpeed] 47

A few days ago I would have said good but since 2005 [as i'm sure you
saw my other posts], I would say bad idea as a mac user. unless RS
releases an update very quickly that addresses the major flaws of their
poor design decisions, i predict a major drop in mac sales which will
further alienate us and then give them an excuse to put mac users on
the dead-end side of the development list as we are now. im already
anticipating joe or someone else from realsoftware to post some comment
on this shortly for you, but as a long time user i think you will
regret trying this IDE. time will tell i guess

0
searchbuffet
6/16/2005 2:17:38 AM
No, not really.  All of the complaints you are hearing about have to do
with RealSoftware's change to the user interface, not the underlying
functionality.

Formerly, RealBasic was designed as a more Mac-like interface where
each window stood on its own; now they changed it to more like a
Windows interface where one over arching window contains everything.  I
am expecting that this unprecedented outcry will cause RealSoftware to
create a new release (at least if they wish to sell any more copies of
their new product).  Whether my expectation will be realized will
remain to be seen.

However, none of this should affect the plan you just described.  If
you'd feel any better about it, I'm sure you find someone with version
5.5 who is willing to exchange with you.

Jonathan Hoyle
Eastman Kodak

0
jonhoyle
6/16/2005 2:18:11 AM
>From what i've found so far this is mostly true. the underlying stuff
is still mostly there. but if we have to use a completely non
functional IDE to try and get to the point of a compile, its not going
to work either way. and yes it really is that dysfunctional.

more under the hood things that have gone downhill are file sizes and
memory usage. the compiled app is fairly larger than before. my small
test programs are about 30% bigger when compiled with 2005 compared to
5.5, with no changes to the code.

and while they tout the mostly small memory footprint when idling, this
is not the case for real world apps. while its true that a VERY basic
app on os x doesnt take up too much memory when in the background, this
changes when the window type is switched over to composite [which is
the norm for any real os x app]
yes a composited window takes up a bit more memory to do all of the
compositing. but the relationship of the two is quite large and
noticeable.

and again without a functional IDE to get from point a to b, you could
have the best underlying technology in the world when the app is
compiled, and it would still be useless. which is currently the case
with '05.

0
searchbuffet
6/16/2005 2:47:02 AM
In article <1118888291.960975.206080@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 "jonhoyle@mac.com" <jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

> Formerly, RealBasic was designed as a more Mac-like interface where
> each window stood on its own; now they changed it to more like a
> Windows interface where one over arching window contains everything.

Just to put in an insider's $0.02 here, the new user interface is NOT 
designed in any way to bear any resemblance to anything in Windows.  Its 
chief inspiration, as I noted elsewhere, was popular modern web 
browsers, such as Safari and Firefox.  (Not even IE; most of us involved 
with the design never run IE, and I for one don't even have IE on my 
computer.)

But inspirations aside, the new user interface was carefully designed to 
solve the major problems caused by the gazillion-windows interface that 
REALbasic has always had in the past.  I know I always spent way too 
much time trying to rearrange my windows so I could find them more 
easily, poking around in the Window menu when that failed (as it often 
did), keeping my windows as small as possible to make it more likely to 
work, and so on.  I'm very happy those days are gone.  From the feedback 
we're receiving, most of our users are too -- don't let the posts of a 
few vocal malcontents fool you.

And please, don't call it a Windows interface.  Apple wrote Safari, as 
well as iTunes, iMovie, and many other apps that have reached the same 
conclusion: managing a zillion windows is a hindrance, not a benefit.  
And Apple certainly isn't going to slavishly copy Microsoft.  A good UI 
is a good UI, no matter where it came from.

> I am expecting that this unprecedented outcry will cause RealSoftware to
> create a new release (at least if they wish to sell any more copies of
> their new product).

It's not really unprecedented; every new release brings an outcry from a 
small number of unhappy users who preferred everything exactly as it was 
before.  (We also always get a much larger number of emails from people 
who love the improvements, though for some reason, those people tend to 
be more shy about posting their appreciation in public -- perhaps 
because the unhappy people are likely to flame them for it.)  And of 
course, this isn't unique to our product -- think of the outrage over 
new UI choices when Apple introduced OS X, for example.

> However, none of this should affect the plan you just described.

Agreed.  Porting FORTRAN code to REALbasic for cross-platform deployment 
is a good strategy.

Best,
- Joe

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout         Check out the Mac Web Directory:     |
|    joe@strout.net           http://www.macwebdir.com             |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
0
Joe
6/16/2005 2:48:13 AM
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:09:11 -0700, Jim Klein wrote
(in message <j5k1b1dr71ftqlth8hb602kqqu41f26962@4ax.com>):

> Hi,
> 
> I upgraded to RB 2005 pro on the Mac. The plan was to port my Fortran
> program to RB on a Mac and then deploy it to Windows and Linux. Did I
> do something extremely stupid and wastefull or are other posts too
> critical.
> 
> Nervously,
> 
> Jim Klein


I think the other posts are too critical. I actually find the new interface 
easier to use on a portable. I have been using rb for a number of years
but only as a hobby. I don't have to depend on it for my living.

bill mahaffey

0
William
6/16/2005 2:53:11 AM
On 6/15/05 10:17 PM, in article
1118888258.801279.202960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
"searchbuffet@yahoo.com" <searchbuffet@yahoo.com> wrote:

> A few days ago I would have said good but since 2005 [as i'm sure you
> saw my other posts], I would say bad idea as a mac user. unless RS
> releases an update very quickly that addresses the major flaws of their
> poor design decisions, i predict a major drop in mac sales which will
> further alienate us and then give them an excuse to put mac users on
> the dead-end side of the development list as we are now. im already
> anticipating joe or someone else from realsoftware to post some comment
> on this shortly for you, but as a long time user i think you will
> regret trying this IDE. time will tell i guess
> 

I just tried the demo and I rather like the interface. Time will be the
teller like you said though.

Robert

0
Robert
6/16/2005 2:54:31 AM
I'd get a refund before its too late unless of course you like working with
Windows software on your Macintosh. RS really does not cares about its Mac
users any more - its after the larger market of Windows users. They don't
care if they loose Mac users as they as a drop in the bucket to potential
Windows users.

And where's OS Classic support? I don't see that 2005 will run on classic?
What's next, dropping Classic builds? Heck why not, after all why bother
because they are now Windows company.

0
kcooddeerr
6/16/2005 2:56:56 AM


On 6/15/05 10:56 PM, in article
5df0c3fbec6eb53e4a33684654092f22@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com,
"kcooddeerr" <kcooddeerr@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'd get a refund before its too late unless of course you like working with
> Windows software on your Macintosh. RS really does not cares about its Mac
> users any more - its after the larger market of Windows users. They don't
> care if they loose Mac users as they as a drop in the bucket to potential
> Windows users.
> 
> And where's OS Classic support? I don't see that 2005 will run on classic?
> What's next, dropping Classic builds? Heck why not, after all why bother
> because they are now Windows company.
> 

Okay now you are just being a moron, ranting and raving and not listening to
anything Joe has been saying.

Since when do they HAVE to support any OS besides OSX? Classic is going away
if you hadn't heard. It will not be going forward in the Mactel (or whatever
the new moniker is) universe.

Robert


0
Robert
6/16/2005 3:05:27 AM
In article 
<5df0c3fbec6eb53e4a33684654092f22@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>,
 "kcooddeerr" <kcooddeerr@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'd get a refund before its too late unless of course you like working with
> Windows software on your Macintosh. RS really does not cares about its Mac
> users any more - its after the larger market of Windows users. They don't
> care if they loose Mac users as they as a drop in the bucket to potential
> Windows users.
> 
> And where's OS Classic support? I don't see that 2005 will run on classic?
> What's next, dropping Classic builds? Heck why not, after all why bother
> because they are now Windows company.

I think you need to take a tablet and have a lie down.

To expect software to run on a 5 year old OS is dumb. No doubt you 
complained when 68K support was dropped also.

Peter
0
Joe
6/16/2005 3:09:34 AM
From the feedback 
we're receiving, most of our users are too -- don't let the posts of a 
few vocal malcontents fool you.=

This gives you example how RS will treat you if you dare disagree with
them. Typical corporate BS - give your potential customers a nicey nicey
image to make a sell, but once you got the cash its open season on
screwing them over.

And please, don't call it a Windows interface.  Apple wrote Safari, as 
well as iTunes, iMovie, and many other apps that have reached the same 
conclusion: managing a zillion windows is a hindrance, not a benefit.  
And Apple certainly isn't going to slavishly copy Microsoft.  A good UI 
is a good UI, no matter where it came from.=

More BS. I don't use iPhoto. I use PhotoShop and other software with tool
pallets ans seperate windows. If you can't manage seperate windows I don't
think you be using a computer at all. iPhoto and Safari are free CONSUMER
software that comes with the computer, not commercial software in which I
have invested a lot of money and time and which is now NO LONGER
UPGRADEABLE.

It's not really unprecedented; every new release brings an outcry from a 
small number of unhappy users who preferred everything exactly as it was 
before.  (We also always get a much larger number of emails from people 
who love the improvements, though for some reason, those people tend to 
be more shy about posting their appreciation in public -- perhaps 
because the unhappy people are likely to flame them for it.)  And of 
course, this isn't unique to our product -- think of the outrage over 
new UI choices when Apple introduced OS X, for example.=

This is not a simple release of this program. Its a total rewrite to cater
to Windows users.

Does RS have anyone working for them that is not a sociopath?

0
kcooddeerr
6/16/2005 3:16:28 AM
I guess that would explain why they still support "outdated" Windows OS's.

Sounds like a post from a RS board mole...

0
kcooddeerr
6/16/2005 3:21:34 AM

kcooddeerr wrote:
> I'd get a refund before its too late unless of course you like working with
> Windows software on your Macintosh. RS really does not cares about its Mac
> users any more - its after the larger market of Windows users. They don't
> care if they loose Mac users as they as a drop in the bucket to potential
> Windows users.
>
> And where's OS Classic support? I don't see that 2005 will run on classic?
> What's next, dropping Classic builds? Heck why not, after all why bother
> because they are now Windows company.

We've added Spotlight support to REALbasic and announced support for
Mac OS X on Intel the day after Apple announced their new strategy. In
fact, the user interface experts at Apple spent quite a bit of time
with us extensively reviewing our new user interface and provided lots
of feedback. They love the new user interface. We are supporting the
Mac more than ever.

I'm sorry to hear you don't like the new user interface. Any big change
is going to upset some people and  you can't please everyone. We do
listen to feedback but we don't always agree with it. And while you
should be free to voice your discontent with it, don't draw the
conclusion that we no longer care about Mac users because that's simply
not true.

Geoff Perlman
President and CEO
REAL Software, Inc.

0
geoff
6/16/2005 4:32:18 AM
ok, now that Geoff is a flat out blatant lie. i would pay you top
dollar, how about 50 rb pro licenses if you can show me even a single
verifiable account of anyone at apple [besides the janitor] that would
say your interface is even 1/2 decent. though i already know the answer
so i wont bother wasting anyones time here. yes yes i know that it
would not be public information, but thats beside the point.

actually in reading that statement again, i dont disagree with you as
much as i just wrote. you said apple provided lots of feedback, but you
didnt say that you actually listened. which is obvious. who knows.
maybe i am just 1 out of 500 users that doesnt like the new interface.
if so, i guess i better move on then because its just not going to grow
on me, i can guarantee that.

it seems that kcooddeerr and myself feel the same, i guess the only 2
users out here. if you modeled this 'pro' development app from a web
browser, it shows. and not in a good 'pro' way. just as said above -- a
consumer level and pro level app is a much different beast, i'd think
you guys would know that by now. i think of myself as more of a pro
user, and i dont like iphoto or idvd. i prefer to use more advanced
apps to do my work in such as photoshop, dvd studio pro, iview media,
and so on. if I just bought my first imac then i guess i'd be happy
with rb2005.

as secretive as realsoftware is about their new unreleased features, i
think it would be a huge mistake to misjudge your current userbase [mac
users included]. i also think it's a giant gamble to keep us in the
dark if you do plan to update the interface and make it more
accommodating to mac users [and you know what i mean, don't say that it
currently is, because it's not]. its not fair, and not a good thing to
keep something such as that in the dark if you actually do have plans
to make it happen, or if you've been listening to anyone these past
couple days. if so, i would imagine its a major gamble most mac users
won't be willing to bet on or wait for -- including myself. on the
otherhand,  if i knew something was being done and could foresee a
better future, rather than a bright past, than i could possibly suck it
up for the time being. and please dont take me wrong on here, i'm
passionate about RB and love what you've done in the past. but I am
very sorry to see it go the way it's gone recently. i'm sure you can
see just how much i actually do care about it. so please stop taking
this the wrong way and accept the constructive criticism. being a
developer as well, i have definitely taken my share over the years and
would hope that it would never stop. but i also know what kind of a
response i'll get back on this newsgroup, and so far it has been full
of defensive excuses and reasons that just dont make sense.

0
searchbuffet
6/16/2005 6:21:19 AM
Apple has shown that they no longer know what interface guidelines 
are... witness the differences in their own applications. Safari looks 
nothing like the new Mail (which I hate because I like folders on the 
right side -- and a spring-loaded drawer would have been slick). You 
have Aqua, Metal, soft metal (whatever it is called), Pro (dark metal?), 
and various implementations of all these in Apple applications.

iCal is nothing like Mail, and both can open various floating windows or 
not. iCal still uses some drawers, but Safari does not. Address Book is 
more like iTunes than before, but a new interface tweak is planned for 
iTunes. Uhg. Select a UI and stick with it!!!

Years ago, I'd say Apple had a UI philosophy. Not anymore. They are 
experimenting until something seems to work... then they change again.

I'm not sure how I should design an application, anymore. I'll just use 
IB and design whatever works for me, I suppose. I'd rather not do the 
all-Metal look of Safari, since I like colorful icons that are easy to 
distinguish. I liked the old Mail application, though the drawer 
implementation was pitiful. Whatever should we do? Maybe I'll just stick 
with looking like an Office application?

No, I don't like RB 2005's interface, but I don't like most of what 
Apple is trying either. It's as if companies can't figure out what works 
for users, anymore. Adobe still has the most productive designs, but 
only because I use them daily. I'm not sure if a new user would agree. I 
know I like Dreamweaver's interface, too -- more than GoLive's.

Real is experimenting. I think they need to have an option for floating 
tools, but I care a lot more about getting tab and page panels that work 
with a real z-index.

As it stands, I am playing with other tools since I've learned I can use 
Xcode with almost any language out there. My current project is a test 
of using an open source BASIC with Carbon nibs. That would be a slick 
way to go, if we can get things smoothed soon.

I at least admire Real's guts for shipping way, way too early. Nothing 
like a sloppy IDE to leave a bad taste with new users or reviewers. 
Resize the IDE and enter a search phrase. Resize again. Whoops. That 
sort of thing is what a user notices -- even though the compiler seems 
pretty solid.

I suppose we understand the 90-day cycle for updates now. It's for all 
the patches they will release over the next 90 to 180 days. I expect 
updates every two or three weeks until the IDE and major bugs are 
smashed. Apple and MS do the same thing -- not exactly a new problem 
with software tools.

- Scott
0
Scott
6/16/2005 7:06:29 AM
"And while you should be free to voice your discontent with it, don't draw
the conclusion that we no longer care about Mac users because that's
simply not true."

Quite true. Mac users have been a very helpful cash cow to you to finance
your transition to a Windows company. Once they become no longer useful
you'll drop them like a hot potato.

"I'm sorry to hear you don't like the new user interface."

Like has nothing to do with. Its called productivity, it why I use
Photoshop to process photos instead of iPhoto - it saves time / money. Its
the difference between a professional application and a consumer one which
RB has now become.

"Any big change is going to upset some people and  you can't please
everyone. We do listen to feedback but we don't always agree with it."

Here we go with the usual  propaganda which is designed to convince others
that people that disagree with RS are just nut cases that don't it. Lets
see, this is usually followed by some RS board schills trying to further
discredit such customers by calling them names or otherwise humiliate
their posts. After all we can't let the public know the truth.

"We've added Spotlight support to REALbasic and announced support for Mac
OS X on Intel the day after Apple announced their new strategy."

I could care less. Where's Classic support gone? I see your still
supporting "Windows 98, NT (4.0 or higher), 2000". I guess Classic got
axed because it wouldn't fit into the new Windows strategy of 2005. How
long before X goes?

"In fact, the user interface experts at Apple spent quite a bit of time
with us extensively reviewing our new user interface and provided lots of
feedback. They love the new user interface."

Oh man, how stupid do you think I am? (we'll maybe not too smart as after
all I supported you for years). That statement definitely makes me believe
nothing that comes out of your mouth. Apple care about you interface, shit
your small peanuts to them. Hmm... I wonder if Apple will give me feedback
on my application. I frankly wish Apple would use some of cash reserve they
have to buy you out and send the current management packing.

RB can be summed up in your own company's words:

"The development environment and language for REALbasic 2005 have been
modified to more closely resemble the behavior of Visual Basic."

"The interface has been redesigned to be more intuitive for new users."

I.E., the interface was changed to lure new Windows users.


0
kcooddeerr
6/16/2005 7:25:17 AM
Joe Strout schrieb:

Hi Joe!

> But inspirations aside, the new user interface was carefully
> designed to solve the major problems caused by the gazillion-windows
> interface that REALbasic has always had in the past.

But how do you now work with two monitors which have a different 
resolution like: main monitor 1280x874, second monitor 1600x1200?

You have to make the RB window now going over both monitors and this 
window now hides all other information placed behind it.

Is this good?

Best Regards,
Carsten
0
Carsten
6/16/2005 8:04:22 AM
<searchbuffet@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ok, now that Geoff is a flat out blatant lie.
>...
> i think of myself as more of a pro user

OK you "pro", I think it is enough. It is fine if you voice your opinion
but there is no need for insults. I am using RB myself since V1 and
there are things I like and things I hate (application size...). If you
can�t live with RB just use C++, Java, whatever and move on. Reading
your rants once or twice is OK but I think it is more than enough now.
0
befr
6/16/2005 8:46:25 AM
Robert wrote:
> On 6/15/05 10:17 PM, in article
> 1118888258.801279.202960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
> "searchbuffet@yahoo.com" <searchbuffet@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>A few days ago I would have said good but since 2005 [as i'm sure you
>>saw my other posts], I would say bad idea as a mac user. unless RS
>>releases an update very quickly that addresses the major flaws of their
>>poor design decisions, i predict a major drop in mac sales which will
>>further alienate us and then give them an excuse to put mac users on
>>the dead-end side of the development list as we are now. im already
>>anticipating joe or someone else from realsoftware to post some comment
>>on this shortly for you, but as a long time user i think you will
>>regret trying this IDE. time will tell i guess
>>
> 
> 
> I just tried the demo and I rather like the interface. Time will be the
> teller like you said though.

You are a Win32 user, are you not?
0
Arnaud
6/16/2005 11:35:00 AM
Arnaud Nicolet <arnau@tribu.ch> wrote:

>Robert wrote:
>> On 6/15/05 10:17 PM, in article
>> 1118888258.801279.202960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>> "searchbuffet@yahoo.com" <searchbuffet@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>A few days ago I would have said good but since 2005 [as i'm sure you
>>>saw my other posts], I would say bad idea as a mac user. unless RS
>>>releases an update very quickly that addresses the major flaws of their
>>>poor design decisions, i predict a major drop in mac sales which will
>>>further alienate us and then give them an excuse to put mac users on
>>>the dead-end side of the development list as we are now. im already
>>>anticipating joe or someone else from realsoftware to post some comment
>>>on this shortly for you, but as a long time user i think you will
>>>regret trying this IDE. time will tell i guess
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> I just tried the demo and I rather like the interface. Time will be the
>> teller like you said though.
>
>You are a Win32 user, are you not?
I use CVF with Winteracter right now.

Jim

0
Jim
6/16/2005 11:47:54 AM
Bernd Fr�hlich wrote:
> <searchbuffet@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>ok, now that Geoff is a flat out blatant lie.
>>...
>>i think of myself as more of a pro user
> 
> 
> OK you "pro", I think it is enough. It is fine if you voice your opinion
> but there is no need for insults. I am using RB myself since V1 and
> there are things I like and things I hate (application size...). If you
> can�t live with RB just use C++, Java, whatever and move on. Reading
> your rants once or twice is OK but I think it is more than enough now.

These insults are a shame, I agree. But you just have to read the posts 
without reading the insults and everything is correct.
0
Arnaud
6/16/2005 11:50:56 AM
Carsten Friehe wrote:

> You have to make the RB window now going over both monitors and this 
> window now hides all other information placed behind it.
> 
> Is this good?

No. definitly not.

MfG, Metti.
0
Stefan
6/16/2005 1:39:20 PM
In article <d8rbq6$qt5$1@news.mch.sbs.de>,
 "Carsten Friehe" <Papier@nUrFuErSpAm.de> wrote:

> But how do you now work with two monitors which have a different 
> resolution like: main monitor 1280x874, second monitor 1600x1200?

I open two windows on the same project, and drag one over to the second 
monitor.  Then I can open whatever project items I like, on whichever 
monitor I like.  (I typically edit window layouts on the right monitor, 
and code on the left one, but that's just me.)

> You have to make the RB window now going over both monitors and this 
> window now hides all other information placed behind it.

No, I certainly wouldn't do that.

Best,
- Joe

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout         Check out the Mac Web Directory:     |
|    joe@strout.net           http://www.macwebdir.com             |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
0
Joe
6/16/2005 2:10:58 PM
>> Its chief inspiration, as I noted elsewhere, was popular
>> modern web browsers, such as Safari and Firefox.

Hi Joe, I've heard you mention this before, but I guess I am still
struggling with it.  I use Safari all the time, but I don't feel like
it's the same as RB 2005 at all.  For example, on Safari, tabs are
turned off by default (which is how I use it).  If you were modelling
after Safari, you should have allowed RealBasic users the choice.  You
may remember during the whole browser wars period, users would
passionately argue whether tabbed browsing is better or not.  Safari
by-passed that whole process by making it a user preference.  Xcode had
the same issue, so in version 2.0, they made it a user preference as
well.  I think that if you were to do the same thing in RB 2005 Release
2, this whole thing would just go away.

>> And please, don't call it a Windows interface.

Sorry, but that's essentially where we see development environments do
the one-window thing.  Visual C++ forces you into this mode; neither
Xcode 2.x nor CodeWarrior nor any previous version of RB did.

In any case, it'll be your decision moving forward.

Jonathan Hoyle
Eastman Kodak

0
jonhoyle
6/16/2005 2:46:09 PM
Joe Strout schrieb:

> I open two windows on the same project, and drag one over to the
> second monitor.  Then I can open whatever project items I like, on
> whichever monitor I like.

And then this second window will have a second "root" window I think?
Will this be saved in the rb-file? So when I start RB the next time, the 
two windows will open again at the same places?
And it is no problem to save changes in both windows?

> (I typically edit window layouts on the
> right monitor, and code on the left one, but that's just me.)

That is a good idea!
 
> No, I certainly wouldn't do that.

If the above is true, I think I can live with that.

Carsten
0
Carsten
6/16/2005 2:51:00 PM
In article <1118933169.164366.116350@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 "jonhoyle@mac.com" <jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

> Hi Joe, I've heard you mention this before, but I guess I am still
> struggling with it.  I use Safari all the time, but I don't feel like
> it's the same as RB 2005 at all.  For example, on Safari, tabs are
> turned off by default (which is how I use it).  If you were modelling
> after Safari, you should have allowed RealBasic users the choice.  You
> may remember during the whole browser wars period, users would
> passionately argue whether tabbed browsing is better or not.  Safari
> by-passed that whole process by making it a user preference.

That's a fair point.  A feature request would be appropriate, if you 
feel that strongly about it.  But, the work flow in a development 
environment is somewhat different from typical workflow when browsing 
the web.  While programming, you very often have to go back and forth 
various places (e.g. window editor, several code editors, project list).  
This back-and-forth happens a lot more often than it does in typical web 
browsing, and I think it's where the tabbed interface really becomes 
useful.  Without it, you spend way too much time navigating from one 
window to another, trying to arrange them so that you can always click 
the one you want, etc.

So, it may be that once you've used the tabbed interface a little while, 
you'll no longer have any desire for the option.  If everyone feels that 
way, then we can spend our engineering time on other things, like 
refactoring tools or whatever.

Best,
- Joe

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout         Check out the Mac Web Directory:     |
|    joe@strout.net           http://www.macwebdir.com             |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
0
Joe
6/16/2005 3:41:39 PM
In article <d8s3kk$37q$1@news.mch.sbs.de>,
 "Carsten Friehe" <Papier@nUrFuErSpAm.de> wrote:

> > I open two windows on the same project, and drag one over to the
> > second monitor.  Then I can open whatever project items I like, on
> > whichever monitor I like.
> 
> And then this second window will have a second "root" window I think?

Yes, it has its own project tab plus whatever other tabs you open there.

> Will this be saved in the rb-file? So when I start RB the next time, the 
> two windows will open again at the same places?

No, currently the state of only the first window is saved in the project 
file.  If you'd like to see that change, please file a feature request.

> And it is no problem to save changes in both windows?

That's right.  They're just two views on the same project.

Best,
- Joe

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout         Check out the Mac Web Directory:     |
|    joe@strout.net           http://www.macwebdir.com             |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
0
Joe
6/16/2005 3:43:09 PM
OK, so you're telling me you'd purchase 50 Pro licenses ($20,000 value)
if I can show you a single verifiable account of anyone at Apple saying
they like our interface? I'll make you a better deal. Contact me
privately and I will provide you with the contact information for
Apple's User Experience Evangelist. He's basically the interface police
at Apple. He spent a significant amount of time helping us work out the
design elements for the user interface. If he tells you he thinks the
new interface is great, you purchase a new Pro license (that's only
$399.95). He even invited me to speak at Apple's World Wide Developer
Conference in his session on good interface design. He specifically
wanted me to show how we improved the user interface for REALbasic
2005. There were almost 1000 people at his session and while many
people came up to me afterwards and told me what an improvement we had
made, not one said we should have stuck with the old interface.

We didn't expect everyone to love the new user interface and I'm sure
it will continue to improve over time. We designed it to provide a
better Mac OS X experience for Mac users, to make it more productive
for experience users (one user told me he finds that it takes about
half the clicks to do something that it took in 5.5) and more intuitive
for new users.

Yes we also tried to make the experience better for Windows users as
well and I think we acomplished that. Our old Windows IDE used an MDI
window which Windows users didn't like. Fortunately, Mac OS X, Windows
and Linux are all mostly using a single document window interface now
which has made it easier for us to design an interface that is native
for all platforms.

We have a beta program and our beta users have been using REALbasic
2005 for many months. We don't design REALbasic in a vacuum. We get
lots of feedback throughout the development process. If you purchase an
upgrade to REALbasic 2005, I'd be happy to get you in the beta program
to you can help us improve REALbasic.

Clearly you are passionate about REALbasic and of course, so is
everyone here at REAL.  If you truely want to contribute to improving
REALbasic, you can so do by providing feedback rather than insults.

Geoff Perlman
President and CEO
REAL Software, Inc.

0
geoff
6/16/2005 3:59:42 PM
I apologize to everyone here if my posts seemed too harsh and attacked
anyone personally. that is not what i mean. but i also wont sit here
and be told things that just arent true, and just as everyone else
doesnt have to believe it. there are many things posted here by rs
employees that are very condescending as well. I admit that I am
passionate about rb and am just sad to see it go so badly. a big shame.

0
searchbuffet
6/16/2005 4:02:46 PM
"

"In fact, the user interface experts at Apple spent quite a bit of time
with us extensively reviewing our new user interface and provided lots of
feedback. They love the new user interface."

I certainly hope that statement is true. If I were Apple I'd be really
pissed that you defamed my name on a public board and tried to suggest
Apple endorses your Windows interface. I'd be so pissed in fact I'd sue
your ass.

0
kcooddeerr
6/16/2005 4:23:28 PM
> I apologize to everyone here if my posts seemed too harsh and attacked
> anyone personally. that is not what i mean. but i also wont sit here
> and be told things that just arent true, and just as everyone else
> doesnt have to believe it. there are many things posted here by rs
> employees that are very condescending as well. I admit that I am
> passionate about rb and am just sad to see it go so badly. a big
shame.

In all of your postings (and in the postings of the others "ranting" on
about the IDE change), you have left out a few very crucial words... "IN
MY OPINION". You should be tagging those words on all of your postings
because, well quite frankly, you don't speak for the rest of us out
here. It is your opinion RS made a mistake changing the interface; it is
your opinion that it is a terrible interface, it is your opinion that RS
doesn't care about it MAC user base; it is your opinion... Well, anyway,
I LIKE THE NEW INTERFACE!!! Now, admittedly, I'm new to the REALbasic
world, joining in at Version 5.5. Unfortunately, due to a prolonged
illness in the family requiring my attention, I didn't have the time I
would have liked to get fully into RB at that time; but, during my
initial tries at learning RB, I found the old IDE hard to navigate, I
didn't know where anything was or where I should go to get it... I found
it quite unintuitive and cumbersome. With the new interface, on the
other hand, I seem to be able to maneuver around without much trouble.
Things are in convenient places, places I expect them to be... and this
is after only one day with the new interface AND without reading any
documentation about the new interface. Personally, I think it will be a
"dream" to work with. Yes, there are some bugs; and, yes, there are some
things I'd like to see added (those I will submit to RS once I've
completely settled on what they should be), but this is essentially
Version 1 for the interface, so I'm not surprised. I expect those
glitches to be fixed by RS once identified. Oh! And there seems to be
some nice touches in the new interface... the Bookmarks look quite
useful, the dual button at the left of the lower toolbar allowing us to
toggle back and forth between code and layout view, the History menu
item, and so on. I think, instead of continually (it is getting tiresome
by the way) harping on the same points over and over again, if you sit
down and become acquainted with the complete new interface, I think you
may come to like it (just give it a fair chance); but if you don't, you
can always petition RS to make changes. Personally, I think the idea to
allow the user to choose between the Tabbed interface or something
similar to the old one is a good idea... but you shouldn't be telling me
or the other RB users this... you should be telling it to RS (via the
mechanism I think I remember they have provided on their website).
Anyway, that is my two cents on this issue.

Rick

0
Rick
6/16/2005 4:33:26 PM
> > > I open two windows on the same project, and drag one over to the
> > > second monitor.  Then I can open whatever project items I like, on
> > > whichever monitor I like.
> >
> > And then this second window will have a second "root" window I
think?
>
> Yes, it has its own project tab plus whatever other tabs you open
there.
>
> > Will this be saved in the rb-file? So when I start RB the next time,
the
> > two windows will open again at the same places?
>
> No, currently the state of only the first window is saved in the
project
> file.  If you'd like to see that change, please file a feature
request.

I'd like to see New (additional) Windows save with the project also;
but, unless I don't fully understand it after less than a day's worth of
playing around, I think the Bookmarks may of some help getting back to
past "views" inside of New Windows that the user calls up in subsequent
RB sessions. Joe, maybe you might want to talk a little bit about this
feature and how it can be used effectively in this (and other)
situations.

Rick

0
Rick
6/16/2005 4:47:16 PM
Your assuming you are dealing with a moral company. They have already shown
they have no morals by lying to and using Mac users to finance their
transition to a Window company. Big clue here - they dropped classic
support in 2005 - how much longer til they drop X - at aleast a little
while longer becasue they need ot maintain cash flow while they convert RB
to a Windows company. Sounds like a post from a RS troll. you forgot to add
that this was your opinion in capital letters at the top - man, I thought I
was reading a post directly from RS or a collective post from a large group
of people.

0
kcooddeerr
6/16/2005 5:01:14 PM
> Your assuming you are dealing with a moral company. They have
> already shown they have no morals by lying to and using Mac users
> to finance their transition to a Window company. Big clue here - they
> dropped classic support in 2005 - how much longer til they drop X -
> at aleast a little while longer becasue they need ot maintain cash
> flow while they convert RB to a Windows company.

I can't speak to the politics of version support in the MAC world
because I am a Windows user myself (a recent convert from the VB world).
However, I seriously doubt RS is abandoning the MAC world as a whole.
Since they started as an exclusely MAC company, I'd venture to say their
largest source of income is from the MAC world. Besides, as I understand
it, you can't use the classic operating system for development; the
programs that are developed though will run on the old operating system.
You might be interested to know that when Microsoft brought out their
VB.NET program, its IDE required users to use Windows XP Pro edition in
order to use all of its features. Five years ago, when VB.NET came out,
WinXP was relatively new and the Pro edition was quite expensive... and
it is not what the average VB user would have wanted to upgrade to (that
would have been the Home edition). Again, I can't speak for RS or why
they made the decision regarding IDE support for the old operating
syster; you wil have to ask them that question. However, given the
manner you have chosen to use in voicing your opinions, if I were RS,
I'd simply ignore you.


> Sounds like a post from a RS troll.

You should look up the definition of "troll" as it applies to the
Internet...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Everyone of your postings qualifies you for the designation "troll"...
EVERYONE of them. Oh! And look at your opening two sentences above for
yet a current example of your "trollness".


> you forgot to add that this was your opinion in capital letters at the
top

If you re-read my posting, you will find that qualified all my
statements with "I like...", "I found...", "I seem to be able to...", "I
think...", etc. This is equivalent to saying "in my opinion". Nowhere
did I attempt to represent my personal feelings, beliefs or actions as
anyone other than mine own; nor did I make blanket statements
characterizing motives of others in terms of my on opinion on the
matter. If you didn't, or can't, see this then you really should learn
how to read better.


> .... man, I thought I was reading a post directly from RS or a
> collective post from a large group of people.

Hmm! I see you put your "troll hat" on again for this statement. Quite
frankly, it is your quickness to make unfounded and judgmental
statements such at this one that make, in my opinion, your participation
in this newsgroup an entirely pathetic one.


Rick

0
Rick
6/16/2005 5:58:47 PM
>> Sounds like a post from a RS troll.
> 
> You should look up the definition of "troll" as it applies to the
> Internet...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
> 
> Everyone of your postings qualifies you for the designation "troll"...
> EVERYONE of them. Oh! And look at your opening two sentences above for
> yet a current example of your "trollness".

I second that!

Anonymous insults are not the way a real man or woman behaves.

Markus

0
Markus
6/16/2005 6:10:36 PM
In article <U8idnTGZBvuIMCzfRVn-3A@comcast.com>,
 "Rick Rothstein" <rickNOSPAMnews@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote:

> I'd like to see New (additional) Windows save with the project also;
> but, unless I don't fully understand it after less than a day's worth of
> playing around, I think the Bookmarks may of some help getting back to
> past "views" inside of New Windows that the user calls up in subsequent
> RB sessions. Joe, maybe you might want to talk a little bit about this
> feature and how it can be used effectively in this (and other)
> situations.

Yes, you have a good point here.  There are really two kinds of 
bookmarks:

1. Global bookmarks, which go in the Bookmarks menu (you can arrange 
them into submenus if you wish).  These include a reference to the 
project they belong to, along with the location within that project.  
So, if you have a bit of code in one project that you frequently need to 
refer to, you can bring it up via the Bookmarks menu even if that 
project wasn't already open.

2. Local bookmarks, which go into the "favorites" bar just below the 
main toolbar.  These are stored with the project itself, and of course 
can only refer to locations within that project.  This favorites bar and 
its items appears on all windows for the project (except where you 
choose to hide it, of course).

So, for example, if you like to have a second window open and use that 
mainly for editing window layouts, what you might do is add the various 
window layouts to your favorites bar.  Then when you open your project, 
use the "New Window" command to make a second view of it, drag it to 
your second monitor, and click the window you want to edit in its 
favorites bar.

But I agree that saving the state of all windows is probably a 
reasonable thing to do.  There are some edge cases to work out (like, 
what should happen if you send such a project to somebody who has only 
one 15" monitor), but nothing too problematic as far as I can see.

Best,
- Joe

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout         Check out the Mac Web Directory:     |
|    joe@strout.net           http://www.macwebdir.com             |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
0
Joe
6/16/2005 6:37:14 PM
I again am sorry for being so personal about my rantings. i do not
doubt that rb supports the mac platform, but i just doubt their market
research and think they jumped in a bit ----way too fast on this one.

even if I'm stuck with this ide for the time I have to use it. and
these giant windows are there to stay. how about making something like
'Save workspace' or something like that. again taken from many other
big programs, and I find it SO helpful. this is very effective with
palettes [which i guess i'm getting back anyways unfortunately [[very
unfortunately] and i have workspaces/custom layout sets setup in
photoshop, indesign, golive, omnigraffle, and so on. this would at
least help alleviate some of the mess i think. but this would be ideal
in ADDITION to the request to have the option for single window or not.

also the little button that switches back and forth between the code
and window view. why isnt there a keyboard shortcut for that major
toggle option? if there is i surely cant find it.

yes this is my opinion. but so far my opinion has been in line with 96%
of the other reviews and comments ive read online. just check macupdate
for more on the downloading side of it ----
http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/8438

i still dont see how you guys could call this a 1.0 final release. even
with this so called rapid release thing, this release is obviously,
with no argument, a rush on your part. no company in their right state
of mind, especially a company that thousands of developers count on to
make their own software everyday, would release something this
unfinished.

such blatent bugs and missing features as the non saving preferences,
non saving window configs, redraw bugs in the top toolbar sections, the
numerous outofbounds errors and crashes, and on and on as have been
reported a million times already. this is just not 1.0 material. you
have a beta program for a reason. i am not part of the beta program
because i dont have the extra time to test out beta-quality software
with bugs and errors in it. i just want to use it for what its made
for. now youve taken hundreds of thousands of dollars from unsuspecting
developers and thrown them head first into your own little paid-beta
program. thats just not right.

0
searchbuffet
6/16/2005 6:56:01 PM
geoff@realsoftware.com wrote:
> privately and I will provide you with the contact information for
> Apple's User Experience Evangelist. He's basically the interface police
> at Apple. He spent a significant amount of time helping us work out the
> design elements for the user interface. If he tells you he thinks the


Maybe the same Evangelist can spend some time with Apple? Ars and 
Robservatory (Mac Central editor Rob G.) have articles listing all the 
various violations of the UI guidelines in Apple applications. Mail 
violates several, but so do most of their other applications. It's hard 
to tell someone "Apple believes in consistency" when they clearly don't 
practice it.

I'm hoping Apple starts to whittle down the number of interfaces, if 
only for the visual appeal of the OS. I don't know if I like the 
"unified" applications ("soft metal") or even "metal" as much as some 
people. I actually liked Aqua from 10.1 a lot. The "softer" colors and 
pastel icons appeal to me as a user and contrast well against the 
hyper-primary colors of Windows XP.

Maybe an Apple guy does love your work visually. If he is a CodeWarrior 
or Xcode user and loves your interface and has spent hours with it, then 
that's a good thing. If he just likes the visual appeal -- that's 
meaningless to other developers.

Borland moved to a single window from Delphi 6 to 7. I use 6 and find it 
more productive. So do a lot of Delphi users, though eventually I'll 
have to read the new DRM (Delphi Road Map) and recognize Delphi X and 
above will be pure .net and probably Eclipse as the IDE.

We have one seat using RB 2005, and it is a user on the beta list, but I 
think our work will continue in RB 5.5 for some time. That's just wise. 
I don't rush out for new OS releases, either, until the .1 updates.

And am I the only Mac user who appreciates the change in some control 
and class names? I'd also change a few of the visual control names and 
add some more controls -- with crossplatform names. That's a great step 
in the right direction.

- Scott
Proud Mac users, sometimes forced to use Windows by business and 
university reality
0
Scott
6/16/2005 7:16:30 PM
In article <1118937582.370882.326090@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 geoff@realsoftware.com wrote:

> OK, so you're telling me you'd purchase 50 Pro licenses ($20,000 value)
> if I can show you a single verifiable account of anyone at Apple saying
> they like our interface? I'll make you a better deal. Contact me
> privately and I will provide you with the contact information for
> Apple's User Experience Evangelist. He's basically the interface police
> at Apple. He spent a significant amount of time helping us work out the
> design elements for the user interface. If he tells you he thinks the
> new interface is great, you purchase a new Pro license (that's only
> $399.95). He even invited me to speak at Apple's World Wide Developer
> Conference in his session on good interface design. He specifically
> wanted me to show how we improved the user interface for REALbasic
> 2005. There were almost 1000 people at his session and while many
> people came up to me afterwards and told me what an improvement we had
> made, not one said we should have stuck with the old interface.

This is some guy they hired _after_ they fired the Human Interface team 
some time back?

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...



0
Michael
6/16/2005 7:20:15 PM
We dropped support for the IDE on Classic. We still support building
applications for Classic. We also dropped support (I think at 5.0) for
Windows 95. We drop support when the demand for that support has
dropped to a very low level. We have found that very few customers are
using Mac Classic. Most of our Mac customers have switched to Mac OS X.
However, for those that haven't, they can continue to use REALbasic 5.5
and we will continue to support them.

We make a cross-platform tool. If we only supported Windows, a large
part of our value would go away. REALbasic supports all kinds of Mac
specific technology (as well as Windows-specific technology) and we
recently announced support for Mac OS X on Intel just a day after Apple
made the announcement.

We support Mac, Windows and Linux. Supporting all of these platforms is
where we add value. The idea that we are don't care about any one of
these platforms or that we are transitioning to becoming a Windows only
company makes no sense.

If you'd like to call here and talk to me about this, I'd be happy to
do so.

Geoff Perlman
President and CEO
REAL Software, Inc.

0
geoff
6/16/2005 8:13:23 PM
Having been a message board manager for two different message boards I know 
a little about "trolls" and if I were going to accuse anyone of trollism it 
would be the name callers in this instant. A troll is someone who tries to 
raise everyone's anxiety level by injecting controversial remarks and 
causing public discord. Attacking Realsoft's integrity under the ruse of 
criticizing the new version is such a tactic. If you are unhappy with the 
new version simply state your concerns and move on.

And no, I don't work for or even know anyone a Realsoft before you ask. I'm 
a new user of RealBasic. I started with 5.5 and have upgraded to 2005. I use 
Windows for development and Linux so I cannot comment on Mac use. I will 
endeavor to try it in the near future just to verify your claims for my own 
information. And all this is just my opinion, take it for what it's worth to 
you.

Will Lowe

"Markus" <notgiven@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:BED77F6D.19E47%notgiven@yahoo.com...
>>> Sounds like a post from a RS troll.
>>
>> You should look up the definition of "troll" as it applies to the
>> Internet...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
>>
>> Everyone of your postings qualifies you for the designation "troll"...
>> EVERYONE of them. Oh! And look at your opening two sentences above for
>> yet a current example of your "trollness".
>
> I second that!
>
> Anonymous insults are not the way a real man or woman behaves.
>
> Markus
> 


0
me
6/16/2005 8:13:51 PM
They keyboard shortcut you are looking for is Option-Tab. The menu item
is View -> Show Code/Show Layout. No, it doesn't display the Option-Tab
keyboard shortcut because our menu class doesn't handle non-printable
characters. But guess what? We are going to have to support them now if
we want these keyboard shortcuts to show up so you can expect to see
this feature in a future release.

Regarding when to release, we release when our own internal testing and
our beta users tell us that the average user will have a good
experience. We realized with this release that there would almost
certainly be problems that would show up that were not being found
during beta testing. We have a large beta test group, but there are
always things that come up once we ship simply because so many more
people are using the product. However, we have always worked quickly to
determine what the issues are and get them resolved as quickly as
possible.

Geoff Perlman
President and CEO
REAL Software, Inc.

0
geoff
6/16/2005 8:20:38 PM
things such as not saving window preferences and the redraw bugs that
it seems every person is having dont sound like isolated instances

0
searchbuffet
6/16/2005 10:15:37 PM
On 6/16/05 7:35 AM, in article 42b164ce$0$1148$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch,
"Arnaud Nicolet" <arnau@tribu.ch> wrote:

> Robert wrote:
>> On 6/15/05 10:17 PM, in article
>> 1118888258.801279.202960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>> "searchbuffet@yahoo.com" <searchbuffet@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> A few days ago I would have said good but since 2005 [as i'm sure you
>>> saw my other posts], I would say bad idea as a mac user. unless RS
>>> releases an update very quickly that addresses the major flaws of their
>>> poor design decisions, i predict a major drop in mac sales which will
>>> further alienate us and then give them an excuse to put mac users on
>>> the dead-end side of the development list as we are now. im already
>>> anticipating joe or someone else from realsoftware to post some comment
>>> on this shortly for you, but as a long time user i think you will
>>> regret trying this IDE. time will tell i guess
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I just tried the demo and I rather like the interface. Time will be the
>> teller like you said though.
> 
> You are a Win32 user, are you not?

Nope I am running OSX Tiger 10.4.1 on my iBook G4. My whole house is on
wireless iBooks.  : )

And I still like the interface...

Robert

0
Robert
6/16/2005 11:04:15 PM
On 6/16/05 12:23 PM, in article
47003e15e18b0e87c0458a3cea39e6ed@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com,
"kcooddeerr" <kcooddeerr@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "
> 
> "In fact, the user interface experts at Apple spent quite a bit of time
> with us extensively reviewing our new user interface and provided lots of
> feedback. They love the new user interface."
> 
> I certainly hope that statement is true. If I were Apple I'd be really
> pissed that you defamed my name on a public board and tried to suggest
> Apple endorses your Windows interface. I'd be so pissed in fact I'd sue
> your ass.
> 

Man shut up. No one wants to hear your crap anymore.

Robert

0
Robert
6/16/2005 11:09:20 PM
Scott Wyatt schrieb:

> Maybe the same Evangelist can spend some time with Apple? Ars and
> Robservatory (Mac Central editor Rob G.) have articles listing all
> the various violations of the UI guidelines in Apple applications.
> Mail violates several, but so do most of their other applications.
> It's hard to tell someone "Apple believes in consistency" when they
> clearly don't practice it.

Does someone has noticed that now we can not "find" any more things in 
the Finder and so on. We have to "search" them. Or wasn't this changed 
in the english Mac OS X?
This was a big difference to Windows, but now it is gone. :-((((

Carsten
0
Carsten
6/17/2005 7:05:08 AM
Arnaud Nicolet <arnau@tribu.ch> wrote:

> These insults are a shame, I agree. But you just have to read the posts
> without reading the insults and everything is correct.

Nope, it is not. The opinion of somebody who insults others and is
ranting on forever about the same issues is not worth much to me so I
prefer filtering those posts altogether.
0
befr
6/17/2005 7:40:15 AM
Robert wrote:
> On 6/16/05 7:35 AM, in article 42b164ce$0$1148$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch,
> "Arnaud Nicolet" <arnau@tribu.ch> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Robert wrote:
>>
>>>On 6/15/05 10:17 PM, in article
>>>1118888258.801279.202960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>>>"searchbuffet@yahoo.com" <searchbuffet@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>A few days ago I would have said good but since 2005 [as i'm sure you
>>>>saw my other posts], I would say bad idea as a mac user. unless RS
>>>>releases an update very quickly that addresses the major flaws of their
>>>>poor design decisions, i predict a major drop in mac sales which will
>>>>further alienate us and then give them an excuse to put mac users on
>>>>the dead-end side of the development list as we are now. im already
>>>>anticipating joe or someone else from realsoftware to post some comment
>>>>on this shortly for you, but as a long time user i think you will
>>>>regret trying this IDE. time will tell i guess
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I just tried the demo and I rather like the interface. Time will be the
>>>teller like you said though.
>>
>>You are a Win32 user, are you not?
> 
> 
> Nope I am running OSX Tiger 10.4.1 on my iBook G4. My whole house is on
> wireless iBooks.  : )
> 
> And I still like the interface...

Well, that's normal someone like it :)
0
Arnaud
6/17/2005 12:05:53 PM
geoff@realsoftware.com wrote:
> We make a cross-platform tool. If we only supported Windows, a large
> part of our value would go away. REALbasic supports all kinds of Mac
> specific technology (as well as Windows-specific technology) and we
> recently announced support for Mac OS X on Intel just a day after Apple
> made the announcement.
> 
> We support Mac, Windows and Linux. Supporting all of these platforms is
> where we add value. The idea that we are don't care about any one of
> these platforms or that we are transitioning to becoming a Windows only
> company makes no sense.

I've just a little question:
Beyond the fact that you will continue to support Mac OS (which sounds 
normal), don't you agree that every option we see in RB2005 is first Win32?
For instance, in the build options dialog, Win32 is first. This is the 
same in ".pdf" documents and almost everywhere.

I won't neither say "Mac should be first" but rather "Put sometimes Mac 
first and sometimes Win32 first". Actually, RB2005 behave like if it was 
a first-only Win32 program.
0
Arnaud
6/17/2005 12:29:36 PM
Bernd Fr�hlich wrote:
> Arnaud Nicolet <arnau@tribu.ch> wrote:
> 
>>These insults are a shame, I agree. But you just have to read the posts
>>without reading the insults and everything is correct.
> 
> Nope, it is not. The opinion of somebody who insults others and is
> ranting on forever about the same issues is not worth much to me so I
> prefer filtering those posts altogether.

I agree that I hate someone insulting someone else, and that, in 
general, I won't read their posts (if the insults is the main or quite 
main point of the post). If the same post was made without insulting, 
the topic would have been completely accurate (I think).
0
Arnaud
6/17/2005 12:38:21 PM
To Windows users, REALbasic has in the past looked like a Mac product
ported to Windows. It looked like Windows users were second class
citizens. What we are doing is making it level. We switch back and for
in the documentation between Mac, Windows and Linux screenshots. In
some places, we can't do that so we list the platforms by market size.
In other cases, when we know the platform, we list the users platform
first. For example, when you go to the home page of our web site, you
see a Windows screenshot if you are using Windows, a Mac screenshot if
you are using the Mac, etc.

We are a cross-platform company and that makes it more challenging for
us.

REALbasic 2005 uses a single window interface that with a toolbar at
the top which is very similar to many Mac OS X applications. It's the
most Mac OS X-like interface we have ever had. The old interface used
Aqua, but that's not the same as having a good Mac OS X user interface.
The old interface was designed when Mac OS 8 was the current Mac OS.

Imagine opening three projects (using the old interface). You'd have
three project windows. Now you open a bunch of items from each project.
All the windows get mixed together especially on Mac OS X. You'd have a
difficult time figuring out which windows went with which project.

What we discovered by watching new and experienced customers is that
all those windows caused big productivity loss. New users got lost
quickly and experienced users spent too much time moving windows around
and resizing them. The new user interface solves these problems and
provides a user experience more like many of the other Mac OS X
applications the user might be using. Yes, it also provides a better
user experience on Windows and Linux and we certainly considered that
and fortunately, we were able to come up with a user interface that
looks appropriate on all of those platforms.

Big changes are not always easy and people get very attached to the way
they are used to doing things. And while we are solving problems for a
lot of users, we are creating new ones for some. That's unavoidable.
But I encourage you to try the new user interface for a while. I'm sure
after several months we will see what works well for most people and
what does not.

Geoff Perlman
President and CEO
REAL Software, Inc.

0
geoff
6/17/2005 10:48:23 PM
The Finder is so called because you use it to find things on your
computer. You might do this by opening folders, using a search
function, choosing items from a Recent menu, etc.

The Finder offers more ways to find things quickly than ever before.
Because REALbasic supports Spotlight, I quickly located a project by
searching for a particular class I has used (dockitem) which I would
have never found without Spotlight.

Geoff Perlman
President and CEO
REAL Software, Inc.

0
geoff
6/17/2005 10:51:17 PM
geoff@realsoftware.com wrote:
> To Windows users, REALbasic has in the past looked like a Mac product
> ported to Windows. It looked like Windows users were second class
> citizens. What we are doing is making it level. We switch back and for
> in the documentation between Mac, Windows and Linux screenshots. In
> some places, we can't do that so we list the platforms by market size.
> In other cases, when we know the platform, we list the users platform
> first. For example, when you go to the home page of our web site, you
> see a Windows screenshot if you are using Windows, a Mac screenshot if
> you are using the Mac, etc.
> 
> We are a cross-platform company and that makes it more challenging for
> us.
> 
> REALbasic 2005 uses a single window interface that with a toolbar at
> the top which is very similar to many Mac OS X applications. It's the
> most Mac OS X-like interface we have ever had. The old interface used
> Aqua, but that's not the same as having a good Mac OS X user interface.
> The old interface was designed when Mac OS 8 was the current Mac OS.
> 
> Imagine opening three projects (using the old interface). You'd have
> three project windows. Now you open a bunch of items from each project.
> All the windows get mixed together especially on Mac OS X. You'd have a
> difficult time figuring out which windows went with which project.
> 
> What we discovered by watching new and experienced customers is that
> all those windows caused big productivity loss. New users got lost
> quickly and experienced users spent too much time moving windows around
> and resizing them. The new user interface solves these problems and
> provides a user experience more like many of the other Mac OS X
> applications the user might be using. Yes, it also provides a better
> user experience on Windows and Linux and we certainly considered that
> and fortunately, we were able to come up with a user interface that
> looks appropriate on all of those platforms.
> 
> Big changes are not always easy and people get very attached to the way
> they are used to doing things. And while we are solving problems for a
> lot of users, we are creating new ones for some. That's unavoidable.
> But I encourage you to try the new user interface for a while. I'm sure
> after several months we will see what works well for most people and
> what does not.

Ok, thanks.
0
Arnaud
6/17/2005 11:23:09 PM
"To Windows users, REALbasic has in the past looked like a Mac product
ported to Windows." 

Thats because it was originally developed as a Macinotsh product which
could build applications for Macintosh, Windows, and later Linux. There
was NO Windows version. After many years they introduced a Windows version
to attract Windows users using the exististing interface rather than
investing their time in making a seperate Windows interface.

"It looked like Windows users were second class citizens."

But now Win32 users appear to be first on the agenda. On the one hand you
say changes were made to make RB more like a Macinotosh interface while on
the other hand you say changes were made to make the product more like
VisualBasic. They are two different things. Trying to serve two masters at
the same time is a bad idea - after awhile their orders will conflict with
one another and you will be forced to choose which one to follow and which
one to run away from.

"What we are doing is making it level." 

I have to disagree - your former core body of Macintosh users are now
forced to use a interface which is totally foreign. You've said above that
the previous interface was not friendly to Windows users because it was a
Mac interface so you changed it - changing a Mac interface to something
else means its no longer a Mac interface. The only ones gaining here are
Windows users, which appear to be your new target audience based on the
changes you've made and the number of your Windows employees that appear
to dropping out of the woodwork from every nook and cranny.


"We switch back and for in the documentation between Mac, Windows and
Linux screenshots. In some places, we can't do that so we list the
platforms by market size. In other cases, when we know the platform, we
list the users platform
first. For example, when you go to the home page of our web site, you
see a Windows screenshot if you are using Windows, a Mac screenshot if
you are using the Mac, etc."

As a Mac user I am curious how this is effecient? I don't want to see any
reference to Windows or Linux customers as this costs me development time.
This costs me money. Surely RB can detect I am using a Macintosh and not
show any of this information?

"We are a cross-platform company and that makes it more challenging for
us."

In the past this statement was harked on to sell RB to only Macintosh
users in that they could build applications for Macs, Windows, and later
Linux right on their Macs. Now it meas something completely different in
that the Mac environment is becomeing little more than sideshow. I am
curious as to the current market share among OSs? I am guessing that
you've shown a large growth in Windows users as you support such an old OS
as Win98, yet on the other hand you've dropped Classic.

I think its a bad idea to drop Classic. And by Classic I mean 9+. I think
your making the same bad assumption that Apple made when they keep
announcing that they were dropping Classic from the computers. Apple had
to delay this because they got a lot of angry emails from groups such as
schools which would be left with a bunch of useless software and no
budget. This is where I think corporate developers such as Apple and Real
Soft are really lost many times. I think it would really help them visit
some real world situations in the Midwest away from the Silicon Valley
type of atmosphere where developers have the latestest hardware and
software because they have the budget for it. Small rural schools, which
might find it in their budget, or perhaps through a donation, upgrade to
2005 now cannot because they simply do not have the budget to buy a new
computer. Schools use their hardware for years - heck I occasionally even
have little community public schools still bring in an Apple II into the
shop.

I also question why was RB still offered for sale to Classic users while
at the same time you were promoting the new RB 2005? I think the ethical
thing to do would be to drop selling Classic versions at this time, or at
least tell them up front in bold print that this product would no longer
be upgradeable because Classic was going to be dropped.

"REALbasic 2005 uses a single window interface that with a toolbar at
the top which is very similar to many Mac OS X applications."

Assuming that the tool bar saves any time at all I do see that the window
space it uses justifies it being there. You now have a couple of menu item
choices visually placed in RB as icons which take up a lot of window space.
I've not make a descision as to the usefullness of the 2 editfields, but
once again the tool bar takes up to much room and I don't want to have
close and open the tool bar to use these editfields.

"It's the most Mac OS X-like interface we have ever had. The old interface
used
Aqua, but that's not the same as having a good Mac OS X user interface.
The old interface was designed when Mac OS 8 was the current Mac OS."

If this is the most OS X-like interface you've had will not Win32 users be
angryat being forced to use a Mac interface. Or are what we really taking
about here is a VisualBasic / Win32 interface?

"Imagine opening three projects (using the old interface). You'd have
three project windows. Now you open a bunch of items from each project.
All the windows get mixed together especially on Mac OS X. You'd have a
difficult time figuring out which windows went with which project."

That is amazing because I generally run X, Classic, and XP at the same
time and often run 2 copies of RB at the same time to transfer code, but I
do not find this confusing - all without 2 monitors.

What we discovered by watching new and experienced customers is that
all those windows caused big productivity loss. New users got lost
quickly and experienced users spent too much time moving windows around
and resizing them. The new user interface solves these problems and
provides a user experience more like many of the other Mac OS X
applications the user might be using. Yes, it also provides a better
user experience on Windows and Linux and we certainly considered that
and fortunately, we were able to come up with a user interface that
looks appropriate on all of those platforms.

"Big changes are not always easy and people get very attached to the way
they are used to doing things. And while we are solving problems for a
lot of users, we are creating new ones for some. That's unavoidable.
But I encourage you to try the new user interface for a while."

I think it has more to do with what is effecient and what it not as
opposed to being attached to something. For example, how is having to
scroll project windows inside a larger window saving me time? RB's main
window is way too large. I am also curious as to the purpose of the blank
bar at the bottom of the window which scroll code as you pass over it - is
this nothing more than ornament?; if so it should go as it takes up room.

"I'm sure
after several months we will see what works well for most people and
what does not."

Several months translates to a lot of money for a small company - perhaps
their survival. I think the change will cost users a lot more time that if
you count up all the lost productively. Messing with main menu was a real
bad idea - that alone will cost untold hours on lost production as now I
have to look for stuff rather than doing it in my sleep.

I also think this is more than a few isolated cases of displeased former
customers, but as the CEO you'd never probably disclose the true figures.
Of course the true figures maybe are obscured to you also as many people
are not going to bother contacting you since many people expect the
typical corporate response of doing nothing - why try?

0
kcooddeerr
6/18/2005 1:27:59 AM
Man I cannot believe this...

(1) RB crashes when I clicked an item link in the Language Reference.

(2) When I start my first build it gives me some type of build error (-61
or maybe it was -65) saying I should make sure no previous build is
running or that I should check to see if the file where I am trying to
save build is write protected. This is not the case because I isolated RB
2005 into its own folder away from any other files. Had to quit RB and
restart.

(3) Added  new window and added HTMLViewer control and pushbutton. Upon
run I get a error - a little bug symbol icon, but it does not say what is
the matter. After finally seeing its a spelling error I try again, but
this time get a unhandled error within a message box - I tell RB to
continue rather than quitting. Immediately another unhandled error message
and then it crashes.

Bad, bad, bad idea of using RB for the IDE - this means crash, crash,
crash. Now not only will PerversionTracker be able to mock RB built
applications, but RB itself.

(4) I think the tabs might not be functioning correctly. I was looking at
a new window in a tab, then looked at code for the window, then found that
I could get back to the window without going to the project and opening
another tab for the window again sort of like the code tab for the window
replaced the actual window.

(5) To my surprise a unaltered version of my previous application actually
runs with no line code errors on Classic, X, and XP. Unfortunately build
size has grown by 37% for windows and 30% for X and Classic. More
consumption of the user's computers resources and more download time and
bandwidth. More lost sales for me and more hosting costs.

(6) I don't want to see the tool bar - it takes up too much space, but I
want to use the back and forth buttons. I do not want to see that blank
bar of space under the collasped tool bar and above the tabs. Move search
editfields and back and forth buttons to blank unused bar between tabs and
tool bar.

(7) Get rid of bottom bar which flashes text as you pass over it - useless
- more suitable for a browser.

I do like:

(a) The bars inside the code editor connecting sections of code.

(b) Faster responding Language Reference in that it scrolls faster and
links actually link to something when they do not cause a crash. 

The layout leaves very much to be desired on the other hand. You need to
have the option of viewing all information about a item on one page as
with the old LR so I can read about all aspects of an item like a book,
not clicking back and forth and 500 hundred times to different pages for
each property and event. Wastes too much time and really kills off any
benefot of the faster scrolling and links that actually link to something.

0
kcooddeerr
6/18/2005 4:04:23 AM
totally agreed with all of that. the improved language reference speed
is nice, but a giant mess.

as it took me  5 minutes to finally find something in the reference
about what graphic formats are supported, i finally came upon the same
as in 5.5. is there really no built in support for even jpegs into a
picture on both mac and windows?? in the reference all i could find was
the same text as in 5.5. for mac ---- just PICT (??) and win just bmp
or whatever. is this really still so?

0
searchbuffet
6/18/2005 5:00:36 AM
> (6) I don't want to see the tool bar - it takes up too much space,
> but I want to use the back and forth buttons.

You can hide the tool bar by clicking

      View / Main Toolbar / Hide Toolbar

and then use the keyboard shortcuts to do your Back and Forward actions.
On my Windows computer those shortcuts are Ctrl+[ for Back and Ctrl+]
for Forward (where Ctrl is the Control key); there must be an equivalent
to this on the MAC. Personally, I would have preferred different
shortcut keystrokes (perhaps the PageUp and PageDown keys instead; or
even Ctrl+{Right or Left Arrows}. By the way, these keyboard shortcuts
also work when viewing and manuevering around in the Language Reference.


> I do not want to see that blank bar of space under the collasped
> tool bar and above the tabs.

You do realize that you can place some of your Local Bookmarks there,
right? That actually seems like a handy feature to me. Anyway, if you
really don't want to make use of this feature, you can turn it off.
Click

      View / Bookmarks Toolbar / Hide Toolbar

 on the RB menu and it will disappear.


> (7) Get rid of bottom bar which flashes text as you pass over it -
useless
> - more suitable for a browser.

There doesn't seem to be a way to remove it. However, some of the
information it provides seems useful at times. Top of the head one might
be that when you are editing code, that bottom bar shows the line number
and column number of the mouse cursor (not the text caret).


By the way, if you haven't noticed it yet, you can minimize the impact
of the tool bars by making the icons small or replacing them with text
only. Also, again the keystroke is a Windows one so you will need to
find the MAC equivalent, you can hid the tool bars and minimize the side
window areas by pressing Ctrl+E on the keyboard. Pressing it again
restores everything. You can use a keyboard shortcut to toggle back and
forth between layout and edit code modes. That keystroke is Ctrl+`
(backwards apostrophe located on the same key as the tilde).


Rick

0
Rick
6/18/2005 5:17:21 AM
In article 
<8c0165b8ae2c6e5d366b3e608a835fad@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>,
 "kcooddeerr" <kcooddeerr@yahoo.com> wrote:


> (3) Added  new window and added HTMLViewer control and pushbutton. Upon
> run I get a error - a little bug symbol icon, but it does not say what is
> the matter. After finally seeing its a spelling error I try again, but
> this time get a unhandled error within a message box - I tell RB to
> continue rather than quitting. Immediately another unhandled error message
> and then it crashes.
> 
> Bad, bad, bad idea of using RB for the IDE - this means crash, crash,
> crash. Now not only will PerversionTracker be able to mock RB built
> applications, but RB itself.


I have always found my RB apps to be extremely stable.  My main product 
'Rondo' has had zero bug reports and its a reasonably substantial 
application, taking a year to develop. Just because the new IDE crashes 
doesn't mean that RB produces buggy code - only that the folks at 
REALSoftware have a bunch of no doubt hard to find logic errors to track 
down. As a beta  tester I can tell you the release version is way more 
stable that even a few weeks ago - does that mean they somehow improved 
the compiler to not crash??

And thanks for toning your rants down. I think you will find the 
REALSoftware people very approachable and dont deserve the sort of abuse 
you were dishing out.


Peter
0
Joe
6/18/2005 5:53:18 AM
what about image support? does anyone know?

0
searchbuffet
6/18/2005 4:57:40 PM
You are experiencing a lot more crashing than normal. It would be
helpful if you could contact us and provide some system information.

Regarding item 3, it's in fact a good idea that we are building
REALbasic with REALbasic. Had we rebuilt the entire IDE from scratch in
C++, you'd be experiencing a similar set of problems. Even 5.5 is
written on top of the same framework your apps are. I think the issues
you are experiencing are the result of more than 100,000 lines of new
code. With that much new code, despite extensive beta testing, some
things are going to slip through. That said, you are experiencing way
more problems than the typical user so we should try to figure out why.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by #4, but tabs represent project
items so in the case of a window, you can view both the window and the
code for the window in the same tab (though not at the same time).

The increase an built app size was not uncovered during beta testing.
These things happen. If you can send us your projects that would help
us figure out what is causing this problem.

Regarding item 6 you can customize the toolbar from the View menu (or
using a contextual menu). You can hide the Favorites bar from the View
menu as well.

The tips bar at the bottom shows lots of useful information. It shows
you the keyboard shortcuts for toolbar items, names of controls on
windows, type and parameter information when you hover over an method
or property in the code editor, etc.

The new format of the LR is not complete. All the notes and examples
for specific events, methods and properties have not yet been moved to
those items. If you know what you are looking for, you can use the
Location field to go directly to the item. You may not have been aware
of that. If you know what you are looking for, use the Location field.
It autocompeletes as well so take advantage of that. The class view is
for those times when you are not sure what the item is called. In that
case, what matters is finding it by name and the extra information that
used to be there gets in the way. It means you have to spend a lot more
time scrolling to find what you are looking for. And there would be no
way to organize all the notes and examples with the class items in the
old format. That said, we haven't moved that information yet but will
in a future release. I think once you see how all the information will
be together in one place for any given class member, you'll really
appreciate the new format.

I think people aren't yet using the Location field in the LR. That
really makes a big difference. You're used to going to the class view
because you had no other choice. Now you do. If you use it, I think
you'll find you can get what you need much more quickly.

I want to say that I appreciate your constructive tone. You are clearly
passionate about REALbasic and no doubt have lots of good ideas and
feedback that we can use together to make REALbasic even better.

Geoff Perlman
President and CEO
REAL Software, Inc.

0
geoff
6/18/2005 9:58:28 PM
What do you mean? Could you provide more details as to what you are
looking for?

Geoff Perlman
President and CEO
REAL Software, Inc.

0
geoff
6/18/2005 9:59:19 PM
not sure if your reply was to me or not? if so i mean can i load in a
jpeg image file into a picture object without quicktime being installed
[on mac, win]? in the language ref it still says only pict files for
mac, which are way out of date. is there a way to import in standard
graphic files without qt finally?

0
searchbuffet
6/19/2005 3:40:04 AM
kcooddeerr wrote:
> Here we go with the usual  propaganda which is designed to convince others
> that people that disagree with RS are just nut cases that don't it. Lets
> see, this is usually followed by some RS board schills trying to further
> discredit such customers by calling them names or otherwise humiliate
> their posts. After all we can't let the public know the truth.

So now it's a conspiracy?  You're Woodward & Bernstein trying to let
the public known the deeply-concealed truth about REALbasic?  No one's
supressing the truth here; no one is agreeing with you because you're
wrong.

> Oh man, how stupid do you think I am?

The mind boggles.

> your small peanuts to them. Hmm... I wonder if Apple will give me feedback
> on my application.

You keep talking about "your application" like it's gold.  Do you have
any idea how small-potatoes that makes you sound?  Some little
diaper-butt Mac programmer whose been working on his one glorious
gonna-change-the-world app in his mom's basement for years?

> I.E., the interface was changed to lure new Windows users.

Who having dealt with Microsoft for years truly understand what an
uncaring corporation looks like, & Realsoftware isn't it.

Realsoftware isn't dropping Mac programmers, it's dropping
temperamental amateur programmers, & you qualify under that rubric in
spades.  You & the d*ck who can't get over the fact that '05 didn't
work on his ONE copy of Win98 (software companies are charging $1000
for complete development packages, & you small-timers are crying cause
you're too cheap to pay $75 for a different OS, or just reinstall your
current one).

Hurry up & finish your app so you can start a blog & tell the world
about what a meanie RealSoftware is.  Oh, and have mommy send down an
extra sandwich & some lemonade.

0
Darryl
6/28/2005 5:40:41 PM
Reply:

Similar Artilces:

Ubuntu 6, really, really, REALLY good
Now to counterbalance my previous post, time for some pure Linux advocating. I really, really, *REALLY* like Ubuntu 6. Really. I've been using it for 2 or 3 weeks now (but only on weekends, so that's like 4-6 days of actual experience), and it really is quite pleasant to use. For most purposes (basically, everything except games), it's just as good as, if not better than Windows. I want to ditch proprietary software. I really do. I'm using MS Office 2003 right now, and I really don't want to pay to upgrade to Office Live. I'm dreading the day I ...

Really, really bad.
<http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/> "Word is completely useless on the Surface RT." -- "The iPhone doesn't have... ....well, since Edwin seems to have finally crawled away for good, I guess I'll let him off the hook Alan Baker wrote: > <http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/> > > "Word is completely useless on the Surface RT." > Its the Kin all over again! In article <alangbaker-3F94FC.01203403112012@news.shawcable.net>, Alan Baker <alangba...

This looks really, really bad
http://google.at/trends?q=cobol%2C+lisp -- Lisp kann nicht kratzen, denn Lisp ist fluessig Tin Gherdanarra wrote: > http://google.at/trends?q=cobol%2C+lisp > > -- > Lisp kann nicht kratzen, denn Lisp ist fluessig Meh, Lisp kicks Cobol's ass - http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=lisp&word2=cobol :) Brad Tin Gherdanarra wrote: > http://google.at/trends?q=cobol%2C+lisp > what *exactly* does that mean? bradb wrote: > Tin Gherdanarra wrote: > >>http://google.at/trends?q=cobol%2C+lisp >> >>-- >>Lisp kann nich...

The Movies looking REALLY REALLY GOOD
Great preview of The Movies in Game Informer. But it's Peter Molyneaux, so I'm going to keep my enthusiasm tempered until I actually play it. Jonah Falcon On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:00:27 GMT, "Jonah Falcon" <jonahnynla@mindspring.com> wrote: >Great preview of The Movies in Game Informer. > >But it's Peter Molyneaux, so I'm going to keep my enthusiasm tempered until >I actually play it. > >Jonah Falcon > What is The Movies, exactly? -- Hong Ooi | "None of them are lesbians." hong@zip...

Acrobat: UI really really bad
Hi - I'm finding it very awkward to read a book-PDF using Acrobat. The hand tool pans like a microfiche. That works intuitively. But the mouse won't zoom. Instead, I have to click the zoom tool (or press z/Z), zoom, then click the hand tool to pan, then click the zoom tool... etc per page that I'm interested in. Is this the only alternative??? Why not have the scroll wheel zoom? Or a ctrl-drag combination. Honestly, hot keys are seriously overlooked in the application. What am I doing wrong? Thanks! Brian ...

Re: This looks really, really bad
Barry Margolin wrote: > > > what *exactly* does that mean? > > > > > To me it looks as if Lisp excites people about > > as much and COBOL, and excitement is declining. > > It looks to me like interest in both COBOL and Lisp have been declining, CL (COBOL-Like) is utterly uninteresting. ...

Call to arms: This would be really really really helpful!!!
Hello! I would like to ask of anyone out there knows *** and can document *** how to clean and/or repair floppy drives found in Model 50/60/70/80 computers. I have only two working drives. It seems like these fail because of the same few problems (or so I've gathered). Can someone far more literate of this problem please pass on their wisdom to those of use with the will (but now way) to keep these otherwise working machines working? --Daniel Do not commit honorable release until you look at: http://www.gilanet.com/ohlandl/floppy/FD_144_01.html I foundt Al Savage...

REALLY really upset!!!!!!
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C4ED4B.F45ECC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, I have bee using sw2005 sp1.0 for 8 hours now and not one crash!!! = Grrr...... The time it took to restart the PC and get sw2004 sp4.2 going again, I = could grab a coffee and a natter, but now it looks like I will have to = work more, booohoo.... I even tried an assembly that always crashes after an hour's use with = 2004 and that didn't crash my system either, Aaahhhh!!!! Basic home pc C...

Toshiba Satellite (really really really slow) did I miss something?
I just go a hand-me-down laptop Toshiba Satellite 3000. Its a P3-1Ghz (or so they told me), with 512MB SDRAM, and a 20G hard drive. The problem, its running Win2k right now, and it feels like a 386 cpu machine. I turned off all power savings and crank up everything to maximum. And still runs like a 386. I downloaded a utility to see cpu speed and it shows the thing as only a P3-500. Is there any Toshiba utility out there so I can make this thing run like a P3? or at the minimum a P2. Or is it one of those omen thing. This is an indication that TOshiba as a corporation is at the twiligh...

Really good, really cheap USB/FW enclosure
I think the final question from last post ended up more or less buried under all of the helpful feedback re: my first question. :-P Just wondering if anyone can recommend a good and, hopefully, inexpensive combo USB2/Firewire 3.5" hard drive enclosure. Is it fact or just good marketing that I should look for a case using the Oxford 911 firewire bridge? And are ANY of the USB2 bridges supposed to be better than the others? Neal -- "If morons could fly, it'd be pitch black." - Anonymous Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:06:21 GMT, not@chance.com suggested: : I think the final question...

Bad behaviour of \url
In my free physics text, I have 900 url links to the internet. ( See the new version on www.motionmountain.net ) A reader just discovered a strange behaviour in my new version: If I use \url{www.somesite.com} in the latex file the link is ok and works: it links to the outside internet. If I use \url{somesite.com} the link is to a LOCAL file on disk and thus does not work. As a result, all the \url{arxiv.org/....} links are broken, as they point to the local disk! In fact even \url{www.tu-bs.de/institute/...} points to the local disk. What is going on here? I use the packages url and break...

really good
I suppose most of you will have seen this but it's really good: http://www.kult-lab.de/mov/windowsreallygood.swf Andy ...

Really basic
I'm trying to use C++ right now, and I don't really want to use objects yet. All I want to do is draw 1 dot on the screen in 1024x768 or whatever it is with at least 256 colors. I don't know anything about screen modes or graphics in C, I just want to draw one dot in a screen mode that remotely matters. Please help me. thegreatvegeta@hotmail.com (Denise Williams) wrote in message news:<853e558d.0411042251.48e909e4@posting.google.com>... > I'm trying to use C++ right now, and I don't really want to use > objects yet. All I want to do is draw 1 dot on the scr...

Really, really loud iBook...
It seems like usually this is a Powerbook issue, but I recently purchased the top-o-the-line 12-inch iBook (900/Combo/384). Works great, but the fan is really, really loud. I mean, it is consistently buzzing away. Is this normal? You hear so much about how loud Powerbooks are, then you meet an iBook that's easily a couple times louder. Nothing at all seems wrong, I've had it for a few months, just loud as all heck.... Anyone? Thanks, Noahsnyc@hotmail.com In article <677f8ca4.0308140823.e73323d@posting.google.com>, noahsnyc@hotmail.com (Noah S.) wrote: > I...

Web resources about - Is RB 2005 really good or really bad? - comp.lang.basic.realbasic

A Kinder, Humbler Donald Trump Softens His Pitch to Iowa’s Voters
DAVENPORT, Iowa — Just before Donald Trump took the stage at the historic Adler Theatre on Saturday night, Jerry Falwell Jr. sang his praises. ...

President Obama pledges $4 billion for computer science education in schools
In his weekly address, President Barack Obama this week pledged $4 billion in federal funding for computer science education in schools throughout ...

Angelique Kerber Upsets Serena Williams to Win Australian Open
Kerber, the seventh seed, claimed her first major title and prevented the top-ranked Williams from tying Steffi Graf’s Open-era record of 22 ...

Police: 1 dead, seven wounded at Denver motorcycle event
USA TODAY Police: 1 dead, seven wounded at Denver motorcycle event USA TODAY DENVER — Police say one person is dead and seven were wounded ...

Last two California jail escapees caught in San Francisco after tip
By Alex Dobuzinskis LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The last two fugitives who broke out of a California jail last week were arrested on a tip from a ...

At least 37 drowned as migrant boat capsizes off Turkey
Los Angeles Times At least 37 drowned as migrant boat capsizes off Turkey Los Angeles Times Turkish police carry away the body of a migrant ...

China Strongly Condemns US for Sending Warship Near Island
NDTV China Strongly Condemns US for Sending Warship Near Island New York Times BEIJING — China strongly condemned the United States after ...

Blac Chyna’s Past And Futures Collide: Tyga On The Warpath Over Arrest As Rob Shops Reality Show
Video model turned entrepreneur Blac Chyna’s past and future may be about to collide in the worst way possible. According to Hollywood Life, ...

Syrian opposition says it wants to make peace talks work, test Assad
The Globe and Mail Syrian opposition says it wants to make peace talks work, test Assad Reuters GENEVA A Syrian opposition delegation arrived ...

Facebook To Ban Private Gun Sales On Its Service
Facebook has announced their plans to update their policies to ban private gun sales on their social media service and on their photo-sharing ...

Resources last updated: 1/31/2016 4:28:49 AM