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How to get signed zeros in C++/C?

I don't find how to express signed zeros in C++/C. Does anybody know what is the proper way to do so? Are they just -0.0 and +0.0? How to distinguish signed zeros from true zeros.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero

Regard,
Peng
0
Peng
6/10/2015 2:50:44 PM
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Peng Yu <pengyu.ut@gmail.com> writes:

> I don't find how to express signed zeros in C++/C. Does anybody know
> what is the proper way to do so? Are they just -0.0 and +0.0? How to
> distinguish signed zeros from true zeros.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero

AFAIK there is no literal for those. You need to use either copysign(),
or the signbit() macro (from <cmath>).

-- Alain.
0
Alain
6/10/2015 3:18:06 PM
On 6/10/2015 10:50 AM, Peng Yu wrote:
> I don't find how to express signed zeros in C++/C. Does anybody know
what is the proper way to do so? Are they just -0.0 and +0.0? How to
distinguish signed zeros from true zeros.

What's "true zeros"?

The IEEE 754 floating point standard has a negative zero representation 
in which if the sign bit is set and the rest are clear.  A "regular" 
zero (all bits clear) is considered positive.  (I just looked at the 
Signed zero article, and it has that description).

I am almost sure C++ has no way to express negative zero since the 
hosted system may not be able to represent it.  The Standard does not 
require any particular representation of floating point values.

If your system has IEEE 754, your compiler can have its own way of 
expressing it either in a literal or by invoking some function (possibly 
intrinsic) but that is *implementation-specific* and not general.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero

V
-- 
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
0
Victor
6/10/2015 3:19:21 PM
On Wednesday, 10 June 2015 17:51:01 UTC+3, Peng Yu  wrote:
> I don't find how to express signed zeros in C++/C. 
> Does anybody know what is the proper way to do so? Are they
> just -0.0 and +0.0?

In C++ '-0.0' and '+0.0' are not 'double' literals by
its parsing rules.

These are expressions where unary minus or plus 
operators are applied to 'double' literal '0.0'.  

What such floating point arithmetic does (like those
unary operators) is not regulated by C or C++ 
standard. It is left implementation-specific.
Target platform may for example (and often does)
follow IEC 559/IEEE 754 standard of floating point
arithmetic. You can check if it does with 
'std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559'. It works
compile-time so you can 'static_assert' if your code
assumes that it does.

    #include <iostream> 
    #include <limits> 

    int main() 
    {
        std::cout << (std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559 
                              ? "double follows IEEE 754 on your platform" 
                              : "RTFM about double on your platform") << '\n';

        double someZero = -0.0;
        std::cout << "Some zero:" << someZero << '\n'
                      << "Some zero negated:" << -someZero << std::endl;
        return 0; 
    } 
   

> How to distinguish signed zeros from true zeros.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero

The link that you posted answers that question. 
Can't you read it? Either use 'copysign' from <cmath>
or see if '1/someZero' produces negative or positive
infinity.
0
ISO
6/10/2015 4:14:04 PM
On 10/06/2015 17:14, �� Tiib wrote:
> On Wednesday, 10 June 2015 17:51:01 UTC+3, Peng Yu  wrote:
>> I don't find how to express signed zeros in C++/C.
>> Does anybody know what is the proper way to do so? Are they
>> just -0.0 and +0.0?
>
> In C++ '-0.0' and '+0.0' are not 'double' literals by
> its parsing rules.
>
> These are expressions where unary minus or plus
> operators are applied to 'double' literal '0.0'.
>
> What such floating point arithmetic does (like those
> unary operators) is not regulated by C or C++
> standard. It is left implementation-specific.
> Target platform may for example (and often does)
> follow IEC 559/IEEE 754 standard of floating point
> arithmetic. You can check if it does with
> 'std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559'. It works
> compile-time so you can 'static_assert' if your code
> assumes that it does.
>
>      #include <iostream>
>      #include <limits>
>
>      int main()
>      {
>          std::cout << (std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559
>                                ? "double follows IEEE 754 on your platform"
>                                : "RTFM about double on your platform") << '\n';
>
>          double someZero = -0.0;
>          std::cout << "Some zero:" << someZero << '\n'
>                        << "Some zero negated:" << -someZero << std::endl;
>          return 0;
>      }
>
>
>> How to distinguish signed zeros from true zeros.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero
>
> The link that you posted answers that question.
> Can't you read it? Either use 'copysign' from <cmath>
> or see if '1/someZero' produces negative or positive
> infinity.

In maths 1/0 is not infinity, 1/0 is undefined. In maths negative zeros 
don't exist. IEEE floating point is wrong.

/Flibble

0
Mr
6/10/2015 5:09:05 PM
On Wednesday, 10 June 2015 20:09:14 UTC+3, Mr Flibble  wrote:
> On 10/06/2015 17:14, =D6=F6 Tiib wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 10 June 2015 17:51:01 UTC+3, Peng Yu  wrote:
> >> I don't find how to express signed zeros in C++/C.
> >> Does anybody know what is the proper way to do so? Are they
> >> just -0.0 and +0.0?
> >
> > In C++ '-0.0' and '+0.0' are not 'double' literals by
> > its parsing rules.
> >
> > These are expressions where unary minus or plus
> > operators are applied to 'double' literal '0.0'.
> >
> > What such floating point arithmetic does (like those
> > unary operators) is not regulated by C or C++
> > standard. It is left implementation-specific.
> > Target platform may for example (and often does)
> > follow IEC 559/IEEE 754 standard of floating point
> > arithmetic. You can check if it does with
> > 'std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559'. It works
> > compile-time so you can 'static_assert' if your code
> > assumes that it does.
> >
> >      #include <iostream>
> >      #include <limits>
> >
> >      int main()
> >      {
> >          std::cout << (std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559
> >                                ? "double follows IEEE 754 on your platf=
orm"
> >                                : "RTFM about double on your platform") =
<< '\n';
> >
> >          double someZero =3D -0.0;
> >          std::cout << "Some zero:" << someZero << '\n'
> >                        << "Some zero negated:" << -someZero << std::end=
l;
> >          return 0;
> >      }
> >
> >
> >> How to distinguish signed zeros from true zeros.
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero
> >
> > The link that you posted answers that question.
> > Can't you read it? Either use 'copysign' from <cmath>
> > or see if '1/someZero' produces negative or positive
> > infinity.
>=20
> In maths 1/0 is not infinity, 1/0 is undefined. In maths negative zeros=
=20
> don't exist. IEEE floating point is wrong.

That is like saying that 'int' is wrong since it is not
behaving like "integer" of maths. It does not even=20
pretend to be correct in that sense.

IEEE 754 does define nothing about maths. It defines
formats, rules and operations for implementing floating
point computation and exchange.=20

0
ISO
6/10/2015 6:34:46 PM
On 10/06/2015 19:34, �� Tiib wrote:
> On Wednesday, 10 June 2015 20:09:14 UTC+3, Mr Flibble  wrote:
>> On 10/06/2015 17:14, �� Tiib wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 10 June 2015 17:51:01 UTC+3, Peng Yu  wrote:
>>>> I don't find how to express signed zeros in C++/C.
>>>> Does anybody know what is the proper way to do so? Are they
>>>> just -0.0 and +0.0?
>>>
>>> In C++ '-0.0' and '+0.0' are not 'double' literals by
>>> its parsing rules.
>>>
>>> These are expressions where unary minus or plus
>>> operators are applied to 'double' literal '0.0'.
>>>
>>> What such floating point arithmetic does (like those
>>> unary operators) is not regulated by C or C++
>>> standard. It is left implementation-specific.
>>> Target platform may for example (and often does)
>>> follow IEC 559/IEEE 754 standard of floating point
>>> arithmetic. You can check if it does with
>>> 'std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559'. It works
>>> compile-time so you can 'static_assert' if your code
>>> assumes that it does.
>>>
>>>       #include <iostream>
>>>       #include <limits>
>>>
>>>       int main()
>>>       {
>>>           std::cout << (std::numeric_limits<double>::is_iec559
>>>                                 ? "double follows IEEE 754 on your platform"
>>>                                 : "RTFM about double on your platform") << '\n';
>>>
>>>           double someZero = -0.0;
>>>           std::cout << "Some zero:" << someZero << '\n'
>>>                         << "Some zero negated:" << -someZero << std::endl;
>>>           return 0;
>>>       }
>>>
>>>
>>>> How to distinguish signed zeros from true zeros.
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero
>>>
>>> The link that you posted answers that question.
>>> Can't you read it? Either use 'copysign' from <cmath>
>>> or see if '1/someZero' produces negative or positive
>>> infinity.
>>
>> In maths 1/0 is not infinity, 1/0 is undefined. In maths negative zeros
>> don't exist. IEEE floating point is wrong.
>
> That is like saying that 'int' is wrong since it is not
> behaving like "integer" of maths. It does not even
> pretend to be correct in that sense.

Using 'int' is wrong; use the typedefs from <cstdint> instead.

>
> IEEE 754 does define nothing about maths. It defines
> formats, rules and operations for implementing floating
> point computation and exchange.

Doesn't make it right. If IEEE 754 was designed by mathematicians rather 
than engineers it may well have been a lot better.

/Flibble
0
Mr
6/10/2015 7:34:03 PM
On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 6:09:14 PM UTC+1, Mr Flibble wrote:

> In maths 1/0 is not infinity, 1/0 is undefined. In maths negative zeros 
> don't exist. IEEE floating point is wrong.
> 
> /Flibble

Sure, in \mathbb{R} it is undefined. But real mathematicians don't limit themselves to a single model of numbers, if other models are better for their purposes.

On the real projective line \mathbb{R}^*, you can absolutely have 1/0 = infinity.  The numbers stop being a field of course, but IEEE floats aren't a field either.

Since IEEE floats can't reasonably model \mathbb{R} while the field axioms, a mathematician might very reasonably decide they might as well model the projective line instead.
0
gwowen
6/11/2015 7:31:56 AM
On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:32:16 UTC+3, gwowen  wrote:
>
> Sure, in \mathbb{R} it is undefined.

Are there Usenet clients that support LaTeX?
Some support Unicode ... u8"=E2=84=9D" <- tried to achieve u8"\u211D" .
0
ISO
6/11/2015 7:58:03 AM
On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 8:58:14 AM UTC+1, =C3=96=C3=B6 Tiib wrote:
> On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:32:16 UTC+3, gwowen  wrote:
> >
> > Sure, in \mathbb{R} it is undefined.
>=20
> Are there Usenet clients that support LaTeX?
> Some support Unicode ... u8"=E2=84=9D" <- tried to achieve u8"\u211D" .

Not that I know of.  I just used the LaTeX markup on the basis that anyone =
who cared about the projective real line and field axioms would just parse =
it mentally.  FWIW: on the hated google group interace, that UTF-8 shows up=
 correctly.
0
gwowen
6/11/2015 10:31:16 AM
On 11/06/15 12:31, gwowen wrote:
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 8:58:14 AM UTC+1, Öö Tiib wrote:
>> On Thursday, 11 June 2015 10:32:16 UTC+3, gwowen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sure, in \mathbb{R} it is undefined.
>> 
>> Are there Usenet clients that support LaTeX? Some support Unicode
>> ... u8"ℝ" <- tried to achieve u8"\u211D" .
> 
> Not that I know of.  I just used the LaTeX markup on the basis that
> anyone who cared about the projective real line and field axioms
> would just parse it mentally.  FWIW: on the hated google group
> interace, that UTF-8 shows up correctly.
> 

It's also fine here in Thunderbird on Linux.
0
David
6/11/2015 11:51:21 AM
On 11/06/2015 08:31, gwowen wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 6:09:14 PM UTC+1, Mr Flibble wrote:
>
>> In maths 1/0 is not infinity, 1/0 is undefined. In maths negative zeros
>> don't exist. IEEE floating point is wrong.
>>
>> /Flibble
>
> Sure, in \mathbb{R} it is undefined. But real mathematicians don't limit themselves to a single model of numbers, if other models are better for their purposes.
>
> On the real projective line \mathbb{R}^*, you can absolutely have 1/0 = infinity.  The numbers stop being a field of course, but IEEE floats aren't a field either.
>
> Since IEEE floats can't reasonably model \mathbb{R} while the field axioms, a mathematician might very reasonably decide they might as well model the projective line instead.

Nonsense. In maths 1/0 is undefined not infinity.  IEEE floating point 
is wrong about this and about negative zero.

/Flibble


0
Mr
6/11/2015 6:18:23 PM
On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 7:18:29 PM UTC+1, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On 11/06/2015 08:31, gwowen wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 6:09:14 PM UTC+1, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >
> >> In maths 1/0 is not infinity, 1/0 is undefined. In maths negative zeros
> >> don't exist. IEEE floating point is wrong.
> >>
> >> /Flibble
> >
> > Sure, in \mathbb{R} it is undefined. But real mathematicians don't limit themselves to a single model of numbers, if other models are better for their purposes.
> >
> > On the real projective line \mathbb{R}^*, you can absolutely have 1/0 = infinity.  The numbers stop being a field of course, but IEEE floats aren't a field either.
> >
> > Since IEEE floats can't reasonably model \mathbb{R} while the field axioms, a mathematician might very reasonably decide they might as well model the projective line instead.
> 
> Nonsense. In maths 1/0 is undefined not infinity.  IEEE floating point 
> is wrong about this and about negative zero.

Is there no subject on which your confidence does not exceed your knowledge?

Go read up on how the mathematical object called the Real Projective Line is defined.  You may learn something.  As Earl Weaver said, the important stuff is what you learn after you know everything.
0
gwowen
6/11/2015 6:27:22 PM
On 11/06/2015 19:27, gwowen wrote:
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 7:18:29 PM UTC+1, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On 11/06/2015 08:31, gwowen wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 6:09:14 PM UTC+1, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>
>>>> In maths 1/0 is not infinity, 1/0 is undefined. In maths negative zeros
>>>> don't exist. IEEE floating point is wrong.
>>>>
>>>> /Flibble
>>>
>>> Sure, in \mathbb{R} it is undefined. But real mathematicians don't limit themselves to a single model of numbers, if other models are better for their purposes.
>>>
>>> On the real projective line \mathbb{R}^*, you can absolutely have 1/0 = infinity.  The numbers stop being a field of course, but IEEE floats aren't a field either.
>>>
>>> Since IEEE floats can't reasonably model \mathbb{R} while the field axioms, a mathematician might very reasonably decide they might as well model the projective line instead.
>>
>> Nonsense. In maths 1/0 is undefined not infinity.  IEEE floating point
>> is wrong about this and about negative zero.
>
> Is there no subject on which your confidence does not exceed your knowledge?
>
> Go read up on how the mathematical object called the Real Projective Line is defined.  You may learn something.  As Earl Weaver said, the important stuff is what you learn after you know everything.

The real projective line looks like nonsense to me mate. 1/0 is undefined.

/Flibble


0
Mr
6/11/2015 6:42:03 PM
Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> wrote in
news:qfmdnZa-WeB3TeTInZ2dnUU7-eGdnZ2d@giganews.com: 

> Nonsense. In maths 1/0 is undefined not infinity.  IEEE floating point
> is wrong about this and about negative zero.

As this is a C++ group, math is no concern and neither is whether IEEE is 
conceptually wrong in anything or not. If the C++ implementation is using 
IEEE, that's what we have got and that's what we have to work with:

>echo '
#include <iostream>
int main() {
  double x = 0;
  std::cout << 1/x << "\n";
}
' > test1.cpp
>g++ test1.cpp
>./a.exe
inf

See there. It is inf, regardless or whether you or me like it or not (I 
do!)

Cheers
Paavo


0
Paavo
6/11/2015 8:43:28 PM
On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 7:42:10 PM UTC+1, Mr Flibble wrote:

> The real projective line looks like nonsense to me mate. 1/0 is undefined.

(... shakes head sadly ...)

There is little worse than a man who is proudly ignorant.
0
gwowen
6/11/2015 8:45:56 PM
On 11/06/2015 21:43, Paavo Helde wrote:
> Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> wrote in
> news:qfmdnZa-WeB3TeTInZ2dnUU7-eGdnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
>> Nonsense. In maths 1/0 is undefined not infinity.  IEEE floating point
>> is wrong about this and about negative zero.
>
> As this is a C++ group, math is no concern and neither is whether IEEE is
> conceptually wrong in anything or not. If the C++ implementation is using
> IEEE, that's what we have got and that's what we have to work with:
>
>> echo '
> #include <iostream>
> int main() {
>    double x = 0;
>    std::cout << 1/x << "\n";
> }
> ' > test1.cpp
>> g++ test1.cpp
>> ./a.exe
> inf
>
> See there. It is inf, regardless or whether you or me like it or not (I
> do!)

If you write code that treats division by zero as infinity then you 
better keep that code to yourself; the world doesn't need it.

/Flibble
0
Mr
6/11/2015 11:55:46 PM
Reply:

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Unbeaten fighter Floyd Mayweather said Sunday that neither he nor Manny Pacquiao have signed a deal for a May mega-fight, but he still hopes ...

Mosman Bomb Hoaxer Signed Note As 'Dick Struan' From Tai-Pan Novel
IN A long, typed note he left strict instructions for the terrified Madeleine Pulver, but placed no price on his demands, despite her family's ...


'Shark sheriffs' still to be signed for Western Australia's shark kill zones
The professional fishermen who will patrol West Australian waters as "shark sheriffs" are still to be contracted, despite a state government ...

NFL 2015-16: Sam Irwin-Hill signed by Colts, Jarryd Hayne's 49ers pecking order spot revealed
AN astonishing seven Australians are holding NFL contracts after punter Sam Irwin-Hill was signed as an undrafted free agent by the Indianapolis ...

Resources last updated: 1/25/2016 2:04:25 PM