Years ago, I bought a PDF copy of the ISO C90 standard from ansi.org
for $18.  I later bought a PDF copy of the C99 standard for either
$18 or $30

Now when I look on webstore.ansi.org, the C99 standard is still
available for $30, but they want $285 for ISO/IEC 9899:2011.

iso.org is charging CHF 238, which is about $255 US at current
exchange rates.

Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a
reasonable price.  Why does that policy not apply to the C11
standard?  Is any other organization selling (legal!) copies of
C11 at a lower price?

(The same thing seems to be happening with the ISO C++ standard.)

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
[snip]

Sorry, I meant to post that to comp.std.c.  I'll repost there.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

Le 25/01/12 21:53, Keith Thompson a �crit :

> Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a
> reasonable price.  Why does that policy not apply to the C11
> standard?  Is any other organization selling (legal!) copies of
> C11 at a lower price?

That would be risky. If the price was low, many people could read that
stuff.

:-)

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:53:54 -0800, Keith Thompson wrote:
> Years ago, I bought a PDF copy of the ISO C90 standard from ansi.org for
> $18.  I later bought a PDF copy of the C99 standard for either $18 or
> $30
> 
> Now when I look on webstore.ansi.org, the C99 standard is still
> available for $30, but they want $285 for ISO/IEC 9899:2011.
> 
> iso.org is charging CHF 238, which is about $255 US at current exchange
> rates.
> 
> Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a reasonable
> price.  Why does that policy not apply to the C11 standard?  Is any
> other organization selling (legal!) copies of C11 at a lower price?
> 
> (The same thing seems to be happening with the ISO C++ standard.)

Just be patient, it will be on the torrents in a couple of weeks.

On 02/02/2012 03:03 PM, paolo wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:53:54 -0800, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> Years ago, I bought a PDF copy of the ISO C90 standard from ansi.org for
>> $18.  I later bought a PDF copy of the C99 standard for either $18 or
>> $30
>>
>> Now when I look on webstore.ansi.org, the C99 standard is still
>> available for $30, but they want $285 for ISO/IEC 9899:2011.
>>
>> iso.org is charging CHF 238, which is about $255 US at current exchange
>> rates.
>>
>> Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a reasonable
>> price.  Why does that policy not apply to the C11 standard?  Is any
>> other organization selling (legal!) copies of C11 at a lower price?
>>
>> (The same thing seems to be happening with the ISO C++ standard.)
> 
> Just be patient, it will be on the torrents in a couple of weeks.

He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:53:54 -0800, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
wrote:

>Years ago, I bought a PDF copy of the ISO C90 standard from ansi.org
>for $18.  I later bought a PDF copy of the C99 standard for either
>$18 or $30
>
>Now when I look on webstore.ansi.org, the C99 standard is still
>available for $30, but they want $285 for ISO/IEC 9899:2011.
>
>iso.org is charging CHF 238, which is about $255 US at current
>exchange rates.
>
>Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a
>reasonable price.  Why does that policy not apply to the C11
>standard?  Is any other organization selling (legal!) copies of
>C11 at a lower price?
>
>(The same thing seems to be happening with the ISO C++ standard.)

The price seems to change based on an algorithm that accounts for the
flow in the H�ra�sv�tn, the price of beef in Cochabamba, and the annual
rainfall total in Darwin.

I picked up a PDF copy of C99 from INCITS http://www.incits.org/ a
couple of years ago for only $30 and now they want $220 and only the
printed version is available there while, as you note, ANSI still offers
a $30 PDF.  Sheesh...

-- 
Rich Webb     Norfolk, VA

Le 02/02/12 22:27, Rich Webb a �crit :
> I picked up a PDF copy of C99 from INCITS http://www.incits.org/ a
> couple of years ago for only $30 and now they want $220 and only the
> printed version is available there while, as you note, ANSI still offers
> a $30 PDF.  Sheesh...
>

Note that the The Art of Computer Programming, Volumes 1-4A Boxed Set 
[Hardcover] costs only 200 US$. That puts that ridiculous price in 
perspective.

jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> wrote:
> 
> Note that the The Art of Computer Programming, Volumes 1-4A Boxed Set 
> [Hardcover] costs only 200 US$. That puts that ridiculous price in 
> perspective.

Commercial books pricing has very little in common with standards
pricing.  Standards are priced solely based on page count with no
consideration of potential sales.  The average standard probably doesn't
sell more than a dozen copies.  If TAOCP only sold a dozen copies, it
wouldn't be $200, either.

INCITS understands that the potential market for computer language
standards is much larger than that for other standards, particularly if
priced reasonably.  Since the production and distribution cost of an
electronic document is essentially nil, they figured they'd make a lot
more money selling them cheaply than expensively, which is what they've
been doing.  As far as I know, it's worked out even better than they'd
hoped.
-- 
Larry Jones

I've got to start listening to those quiet, nagging doubts. -- Calvin

lawrence.jones@siemens.com writes:

> INCITS understands that the potential market for computer language
> standards is much larger than that for other standards, particularly if
> priced reasonably.  Since the production and distribution cost of an
> electronic document is essentially nil, they figured they'd make a lot
> more money selling them cheaply than expensively, which is what they've
> been doing.  As far as I know, it's worked out even better than they'd
> hoped.

Did they change that policy for 9899:2011?  Or does that mean
that they are going to lower the C11 price from $228 to something
more reasonable, then?
-- 
"A lesson for us all: Even in trivia there are traps."
--Eric Sosman

Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> lawrence.jones@siemens.com writes:
> 
> > INCITS understands that the potential market for computer language
> > standards is much larger than that for other standards, particularly if
> > priced reasonably.  Since the production and distribution cost of an
> > electronic document is essentially nil, they figured they'd make a lot
> > more money selling them cheaply than expensively, which is what they've
> > been doing.  As far as I know, it's worked out even better than they'd
> > hoped.
> 
> Did they change that policy for 9899:2011?  Or does that mean
> that they are going to lower the C11 price from $228 to something
> more reasonable, then?

The $228 document is the ISO document that they're reselling -- I think
most of that money goes to ISO.  Once it's adopted as an ANSI standard,
NCITS has the right to produce and sell their own version, which should
be reasonably priced.  I'm not sure how long it takes to grind through
the administrative process until that happens, but nothing is done
quickly in the standards world.
-- 
Larry Jones

I think we need to change the rules. -- Calvin

lawrence.jones@siemens.com wrote:
> jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> wrote:
> > 
> > Note that the The Art of Computer Programming, Volumes 1-4A Boxed Set 
> > [Hardcover] costs only 200 US$. That puts that ridiculous price in 
> > perspective.

> Commercial books pricing has very little in common with standards
> pricing.  Standards are priced solely based on page count with no
> consideration of potential sales.

I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years, and
they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites. My
guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a single
software standard document. There may be multiple documents to any standard,
though.

One small consolation is that amendments and corrigenda tend to be free.
Sometimes that's all you need. But having the standard can saves many hours
of effort; so the money spent is usually worth it when you know you could
use the document. What makes these paywalls distasteful is that sometimes
you don't know what you don't know. What's more offensive than the price,
per se, is the frustration and ignorance engendered.

James Kuyper wrote:

> He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.

If it is exclusively for personal use and doesn't have a noticeable impact 
on the sale of the work of art, in some jurisdictions a copy downloaded from 
anywhere is as "legal" as any other copy.


Rui Maciel

William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
> 
> I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years, and
> they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites. My
> guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a single
> software standard document.

The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges). 
Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.
-- 
Larry Jones

Whatever it is, it's driving me crazy! -- Calvin

lawrence.jones@siemens.com writes:
> William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years, and
>> they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites. My
>> guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a single
>> software standard document.
>
> The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges). 
> Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.

It's a PDF.  Surely it could be configured as a single page 8.5 inches
wide and 642 feet 7 inches long (length based on N1570 draft).

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

"Keith Thompson" <kst-u@mib.org> wrote in message 
news:ln8vkip8fl.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org...
> lawrence.jones@siemens.com writes:
>> William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years, 
>>> and
>>> they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites. 
>>> My
>>> guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a 
>>> single
>>> software standard document.
>>
>> The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges).
>> Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.
>
> It's a PDF.  Surely it could be configured as a single page 8.5 inches
> wide and 642 feet 7 inches long (length based on N1570 draft).

That would be too unwieldy. You just have to use one normal-sized page (eg. 
A4 or 8.5x11), but a microscopic font size.

-- 
Bart 

lawrence.jones@siemens.com wrote:
> William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
> > 
> > I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years,
> > and they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI
> > websites. My guess is that's the standard price for the most recent
> > version of a single software standard document.

> The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges). 
> Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.

FWIW, an ISO sales representative rather conspicuously told me that page
count is _one_ of the price determinants. Lord knows what the other
determinants are, or their weight.

I was curious because my CHF 238 documents range from under 200 to over 1200
pages. The sales rep also said that 238 is now the maximum price. I'm not
sure what to think of that. Some standards have several principal documents
which each list for 238 or thereabouts.

Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:
> lawrence.jones@siemens.com writes:
> > William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years, and
> >> they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites. My
> >> guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a single
> >> software standard document.
> >
> > The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges). 
> > Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.
> 
> It's a PDF.  Surely it could be configured as a single page 8.5 inches
> wide and 642 feet 7 inches long (length based on N1570 draft).

Sorry, they have to be ISO standard A4 pages.  (Although, come to think
of it, I believe I gave them US standard letter pages.  I assume they
edited the PDF to make them A4 pages instead.)
-- 
Larry Jones

My "C-" firmly establishes me on the cutting edge of the avant-garde.
-- Calvin

lawrence.jones@siemens.com writes:
> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:
>> lawrence.jones@siemens.com writes:
>> > William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years, and
>> >> they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites. My
>> >> guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a single
>> >> software standard document.
>> >
>> > The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges). 
>> > Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.
>> 
>> It's a PDF.  Surely it could be configured as a single page 8.5 inches
>> wide and 642 feet 7 inches long (length based on N1570 draft).
>
> Sorry, they have to be ISO standard A4 pages.  (Although, come to think
> of it, I believe I gave them US standard letter pages.  I assume they
> edited the PDF to make them A4 pages instead.)

Oh well, it was worth a shot.

My copy of the C90 standard (which is a PDF that appears to have been
scanned from a paper copy) is in US letter format, 8.5 x 11 inches.
My copy of the C9 standard is A4.  I bought both from ANSI.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

Keith Thompson wrote:
 
> My copy of the C90 standard (which is a PDF that appears to have been
> scanned from a paper copy) is in US letter format, 8.5 x 11 inches.

I have this one: 3955.pdf

I can copy and paste from it, 
while reading it in an Acrobat reader.

AS 3955�1991
ISO/IEC 9899: 1990
Australian Standard
Programming languages�C

ANSI Store order #X194129 Downloaded: 6/7/2005 3:23:54 PM ET
Single user license only. Copying and networking prohibited.

This Standard was prepared by the Standards Australia Committee 
on Information Systems�
Vocabulary and Software. 
It is identical with and has been reproduced 
from ISO/IEC 9899:1990 Programming languages� C.

-- 
pete

pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> writes:
> Keith Thompson wrote:
>  
>> My copy of the C90 standard (which is a PDF that appears to have been
>> scanned from a paper copy) is in US letter format, 8.5 x 11 inches.
>
> I have this one: 3955.pdf
>
> I can copy and paste from it, 
> while reading it in an Acrobat reader.
>
> AS 3955—1991
> ISO/IEC 9899: 1990
> Australian Standard
> Programming languages—C
>
> ANSI Store order #X194129 Downloaded: 6/7/2005 3:23:54 PM ET
> Single user license only. Copying and networking prohibited.
>
> This Standard was prepared by the Standards Australia Committee 
> on Information Systems—
> Vocabulary and Software. 
> It is identical with and has been reproduced 
> from ISO/IEC 9899:1990 Programming languages— C.

I can copy and paste from my copy too; it looks like some optical
character recognition was done.  But if I zoom in on the text,
I can see artifacts that make it clear that it was scanned from a
printed copy -- and copy-and-pasting tends to produce errors with
similar-looking characters, like '.' vs. ','.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"