Re: example literate program in Forth using LyX

This is absurd. All the 'hi-level' explanations which are possible by literate programming, will be swamped by Forth's trivial stack-shuffling requirements. It's like saying 'I'm using the most modern technology to fly half-way around the world', but after the rocket has landed, I'll have to spend 49 days leading the donkey through the jungle, before the forth-code is ready for delivery. And the promoter points out how nice lynx is for maths formula: well that got nothing special to do with forth-projects. If the project was a 'music' one perhaps an editor with music-notation facilities would be good. ---------- But mostly I want to stress the following: this newsgroup is one of the few that hasn't yet been swamped/ killed by blogs, Micro$loth-word ...etc. Last week I needed to d/l some legislation and I had to buy a Win device to do it, because the Chinese wireless modem maker had agreed to make the device unusable except by people who paid the WinTel monopolists. And I ended up with 103 *.png/s. Somehow Win7 wanted to convert the *pdf to *.png; probably because <pictures> is the default format for the kiddies these days. When I eventually got to a landline and a linux system, the *pdf was automagically transformed <pdftotext> and beautifully rendered as plain text by my superior editor, where I can cutNpast, email ..etc. and cahnge the colour/font for deep analyis - like students handle paper material. Using latex for plain text is stupid. Using pdf for plaiin text is stupid. Yesterday I sent a 10 line email to somebody and got a two-word reply wrapped up in a 10718 Byte email, with stuff like:---------------- --_000_818E6263C6105546851D901D282718A22D319CMbx1marionlocal_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= .... @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} .... <body lang=3D"EN-ZA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> .... </body> </html> --_000_818E6263C6105546851D901D282718A22D319CMbx1marionlocal_-- ----------------------------------------------- WHAT IS THIS CRAP !! We engineers need to fight against the ballet dancers and those who write "having said that". BTW what's an English translation for the recently popular US-slang "tab". I worked out that "cap" means 'limit'. TIA == Chris Glur.

Hmm, should I reply up here? Naah, i can't bring myself to do it... no.top.post@gmail.com wrote: > This is absurd. > All the 'hi-level' explanations which are possible by > literate programming, will be swamped by Forth's trivial > stack-shuffling requirements. > > It's like saying 'I'm using the most modern technology to fly > half-way around the world', but after the rocket has landed, > I'll have to spend 49 days leading the donkey through the > jungle, before the forth-code is ready for delivery. Huh? I can't see that makes any difference. You might as well say that all the 'hi-level' explanations will be swamped by C's pointless braces, commmas, and semicolons or by lisp's parentheses. Andrew.

On 22/03/2011 07:52, no.top.post@gmail.com wrote: > This is absurd. > All the 'hi-level' explanations which are possible by > literate programming, will be swamped by Forth's trivial > stack-shuffling requirements. > > It's like saying 'I'm using the most modern technology to fly > half-way around the world', but after the rocket has landed, > I'll have to spend 49 days leading the donkey through the > jungle, before the forth-code is ready for delivery. > > And the promoter points out how nice lynx is for maths formula: > well that got nothing special to do with forth-projects. If the > project was a 'music' one perhaps an editor with music-notation > facilities would be good. > ---------- > But mostly I want to stress the following: > this newsgroup is one of the few that hasn't yet been swamped/ > killed by blogs, Micro$loth-word ...etc. so why pollute it with the following rant? > Last week I needed to d/l some legislation and I had to buy a Win > device to do it, because the Chinese wireless modem maker had > agreed to make the device unusable except by people who paid > the WinTel monopolists. And I ended up with 103 *.png/s. > Somehow Win7 wanted to convert the *pdf to *.png; > probably because<pictures> is the default format for the kiddies > these days. > > When I eventually got to a landline and a linux system, the *pdf > was automagically transformed<pdftotext> and beautifully > rendered as plain text by my superior editor, where I can cutNpast, > email ..etc. and cahnge the colour/font for deep analyis - like > students handle paper material. > > Using latex for plain text is stupid. > Using pdf for plaiin text is stupid. > > Yesterday I sent a 10 line email to somebody and got a two-word > reply wrapped up in a 10718 Byte email, with stuff like:---------------- > --_000_818E6263C6105546851D901D282718A22D319CMbx1marionlocal_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= > ... > @font-face > {font-family:"Cambria Math"; > panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > ... > <body lang=3D"EN-ZA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> > <div class=3D"WordSection1"> > ... > </body> > </html> > > --_000_818E6263C6105546851D901D282718A22D319CMbx1marionlocal_-- > ----------------------------------------------- > WHAT IS THIS CRAP !! > We engineers need to fight against the ballet dancers and those who > write "having said that". > > BTW what's an English translation for the recently popular US-slang > "tab". I worked out that "cap" means 'limit'. Ever heard of Google? -- Gerry

On Mar 22, 2:52=A0am, no.top.p...@gmail.com wrote: > This is absurd. > All the 'hi-level' explanations which are possible by > literate programming, will be swamped by Forth's trivial > stack-shuffling requirements. > I don't understand your assertion that writing this example program in a literate style is "absurd", because the high level explanation is swamped by supposedly trivial Forth code. Have you looked at either the source LyX or generated pdf files? I don't find your assertion to be true, but, then again, I don't have an unbiased opinion. It would be useful to know whether or not you are familiar with Forth programming also. > It's like saying 'I'm using the most modern technology to fly > half-way around the world', but after the rocket has landed, > I'll have to spend 49 days leading the donkey through the > jungle, before the forth-code is ready for delivery. > It's part of the process. > And the promoter points out how nice lynx is for maths formula: > well that got nothing special to do with forth-projects. If the > project was a 'music' one perhaps an editor with music-notation > facilities would be good. True. There's nothing special about this approach, or the tools used for this example, in relation to Forth. The method and tools may equally well be applied to another language, such as Fortran 77. The point was to demonstrate that a Forth program, one requiring documentation that is not readable as plain text, could also be made literate. > ---------- > But mostly I want to stress the following: > =A0this newsgroup is one of the few that hasn't yet been swamped/ > =A0killed by blogs, Micro$loth-word =A0...etc. > Last week I needed to d/l some legislation and I had to buy a Win > device to do it, because the Chinese wireless modem maker had > agreed to make the device unusable except by people who paid > the WinTel monopolists. =A0And I ended up with 103 *.png/s. > Somehow Win7 wanted to convert the *pdf to *.png; > probably because <pictures> is the default format for the kiddies > these days. > > When I eventually got to a landline and a linux system, the *pdf > was automagically transformed <pdftotext> =A0and beautifully > rendered as plain text by my superior editor, where I can cutNpast, > email ..etc. and cahnge the colour/font for deep analyis - like > students handle paper material. > > Using latex for plain text is stupid. > Using pdf for plaiin text is stupid. > > Yesterday I sent a 10 line email to somebody and got a two-word > reply wrapped up in a 10718 Byte email, with stuff like:---------------- > --_000_818E6263C6105546851D901D282718A22D319CMbx1marionlocal_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html xmlns:v=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D3D"urn:schema= s-micr=3D > ... > @font-face > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 {font-family:"Cambria Math"; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > ... > <body lang=3D3D"EN-ZA" link=3D3D"blue" vlink=3D3D"purple"> > <div class=3D3D"WordSection1"> > ... > </body> > </html> > > --_000_818E6263C6105546851D901D282718A22D319CMbx1marionlocal_-- > ----------------------------------------------- > WHAT IS THIS CRAP !! > We engineers need to fight against the ballet dancers and those who > write "having said that". > > BTW what's an English translation for the recently popular US-slang > "tab". I worked out that "cap" means 'limit'. > > TIA > =3D=3D Chris Glur. I don't see the relevance of the above to this thread. Perhaps you should start another thread, prefixed with "OT: ..." to deal with your other issues, since they don't seem to be related to Forth. Incidentally, if you take the time to examine the literate source for the example presented here, any thoughtful feedback would be welcome. Krishna

On 3/22/11 3:52 AM, no.top.post@gmail.com wrote: > This is absurd. > All the 'hi-level' explanations which are possible by > literate programming, will be swamped by Forth's trivial > stack-shuffling requirements. For somewhat small programs this may be true. But for anything complex I would suggest "don't knock it until you've tried it". Even if it doesn't work for you, it clearly has value to quite a few others. > It's like saying 'I'm using the most modern technology to fly > half-way around the world', but after the rocket has landed, > I'll have to spend 49 days leading the donkey through the > jungle, before the forth-code is ready for delivery. Yes. Documenting code is painful. But it must be done and done well, especially for mission critical non-trivial code written for others (customers). > And the promoter points out how nice lynx is for maths formula: > well that got nothing special to do with forth-projects. If the > project was a 'music' one perhaps an editor with music-notation > facilities would be good. We should be thanking him for spending the time to explain and illustrate. Highly negative responses will only suppress future efforts like that. I am glad he took the time to show us and I learned quite a bit. -Doug

On Mar 22, 3:52=A0am, no.top.p...@gmail.com wrote: > This is absurd. Well, at least you warned us. > All the 'hi-level' explanations which are possible > by literate programming, will be swamped by Forth's > trivial stack-shuffling requirements. One of the problems when discussing literate programming is that some people (like yourself) don't understand what the term means. Instead of looking it up and doing some basic research, they (like you) fall back on a colloquial definition. It is certainly true that many Forth programs are made less clear by stack noise. I don't think anyone can argue that the *readability* of Forth is in any way enhanced by having explicit and visible stack juggling. But that has absolutely nothing to do with literate programming. Regardless of the language one codes in, the "literate" part is not about the code, but about the prose that explains the code, structure, and overall design.

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