f



It's not C# we have to worry about - it's PHP

Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of programming
platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some grain
of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after eclipsing
C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining popularity
(and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time now).

In fact, it's PHP that has been exploding in popularity, and it now
ranks only below Java, C, and C++ in the rankings.

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tekst.htm

The title I used was only somewhat tongue in cheek. PHP, like ASP,
competes with Java only in a few areas, mostly light web programming -
but unlike C# and the other Microsoft-tainted languages, it does not
engender any negative feelings in me. Perhaps instead of trying to
create new scripting languages from scratch and attaching those to
Java (hello groovy), it might be more useful to just semi-officially
encourage the use of PHP and make it easier for our two platforms to
exist side by side (and no, I don't know PHP so if this is a stupid
idea, sorry).

http://www.jroller.com/page/kalimantan/20040414#it_s_not_c_we
0
asj
4/14/2004 4:55:42 PM
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asj:

in spite of the "tongue-in-cheek," why would "we" have to worry about the
popularity of languages in the first place, unless of course "we" are in the
business of selling languages? if a new language becomes popular, how is
this anything but another arrow in your quiver for solving problems?

cheers,

-- j

ps: and no, i don't think that a company can "make" a programming language
popular if it does not help solving some real problem. i have yet to see an
example of that. in fact, the thing that comes closest afaict is java in its
early years, but even there i think it was mostly its technical qualities
that made it successful.


0
J
4/14/2004 5:46:07 PM
In article <2bfb3b97.0404140855.462c6c80@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
> Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of programming
> platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some grain
> of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after eclipsing
> C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining popularity
> (and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time now).

What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total numbers and
had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.

I would give the link, but I can't get to netcraft.com for some reason
right now.  But, if you can - just search for asp.ne.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
4/14/2004 7:19:22 PM
asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote or quoted:

> Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of programming
> platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some grain
> of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after eclipsing
> C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining popularity
> (and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time now).
> 
> In fact, it's PHP that has been exploding in popularity, and it now
> ranks only below Java, C, and C++ in the rankings.
> 
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tekst.htm
> 
> The title I used was only somewhat tongue in cheek. PHP, like ASP,
> competes with Java only in a few areas, mostly light web programming -
> but unlike C# and the other Microsoft-tainted languages, it does not
> engender any negative feelings in me. [...]

I've now done quite a bit of PHP programming.

Technically I'm not very impressed - PHP is a hastily-thrown together
scrappy mess :-(

However, PHP is genuinely free, open source software.  Java has nothing
on it in the license department.

Also PHP is available nearly everywhere - since it comes bundled with
Apache.  Servlets and JSP are nowhere near as ubiquitous.  That makes
it an attrative target for programmers - since there are more clients
for your code.

Sun have cause to be concerned about PHP.  It might not be that much
of a threat today - but it has a fair bit of momentum now.
-- 
__________
 |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.
0
Tim
4/14/2004 9:13:38 PM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<_8gfc.179$V02.45113@news.uswest.net>...
> In article <2bfb3b97.0404140855.462c6c80@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
> > Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of programming
> > platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some grain
> > of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after eclipsing
> > C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining popularity
> > (and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time now).
> 
> What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
> ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total numbers and
> had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.
> 

except of course if you actually coded in java (instead of being a
troll) you'd know that a hell of a lot of java web sites don't even
show "servlets" and "jsp" in the URL.

and of course, we all know that java just dominantes the best-selling
lists of amazon.com and there are hell more java jobs than almost
anything out there.
0
asj
4/15/2004 1:38:55 AM
Tim Tyler <tim@tt1lock.org>  wrote in message news:<Hw6Iyq.5y7@bath.ac.uk>...
> asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote or quoted:
> Sun have cause to be concerned about PHP.  It might not be that much
> of a threat today - but it has a fair bit of momentum now.

PHP is for web programming, and that's about it. it's a poor man's
solution to the problem of putting together sites hastily (about the
same as asp), which means it'll always be more popular with the masses
of website programmers out there.

if php ever made a strong jump to mobiles, or client apps, or
mainframes, or whatever (which it never will), THEN it might worry
Java slightly....as it is right now, i think it might be a good way to
attract people to "upgrade" to java if enough tools are provided to
make java and php work well together.
0
asj
4/15/2004 1:45:02 AM
On 2004-04-15, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<_8gfc.179$V02.45113@news.uswest.net>...
>> In article <2bfb3b97.0404140855.462c6c80@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
>> > Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of programming
>> > platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some grain
>> > of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after eclipsing
>> > C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining popularity
>> > (and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time now).
>> 
>> What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
>> ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total numbers and
>> had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.
>> 
>
> except of course if you actually coded in java (instead of being a
> troll) you'd know that a hell of a lot of java web sites don't even
> show "servlets" and "jsp" in the URL.
>

I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx extensions.
Java pages are not the only ones that this can be done to you know.  And 
your right, I don't code in Java.  I used to do the odd project in Java, 
and I had just decided to work on a cert because I really liked it...
But, then C# was released.

Maybe, now that Sun is a subsidiary of MS - I'll get to try out the
JDK1.5 based version of J#... :)

> and of course, we all know that java just dominantes the best-selling
> lists of amazon.com and there are hell more java jobs than almost
> anything out there.

For now.

-- 
Tom Shelton
Powered By Gentoo Linux 1.4
APL is a write-only language.  I can write programs in APL, but I can't
read any of them.
		-- Roy Keir
0
Tom
4/15/2004 5:15:43 AM
On 2004-04-15, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
> Tim Tyler <tim@tt1lock.org>  wrote in message news:<Hw6Iyq.5y7@bath.ac.uk>...
>> asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote or quoted:
>> Sun have cause to be concerned about PHP.  It might not be that much
>> of a threat today - but it has a fair bit of momentum now.
>
> PHP is for web programming, and that's about it. it's a poor man's
> solution to the problem of putting together sites hastily (about the
> same as asp), which means it'll always be more popular with the masses
> of website programmers out there.
>
> if php ever made a strong jump to mobiles, or client apps, or
> mainframes, or whatever (which it never will), THEN it might worry
> Java slightly....as it is right now, i think it might be a good way to
> attract people to "upgrade" to java if enough tools are provided to
> make java and php work well together.

PHP can be used to write client programs.  In fact, the last couple of
versions install a version explicitly for this purpose.

-- 
Tom Shelton
Powered By Gentoo Linux 1.4
A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.
		-- Oscar Wilde, "The Portrait of Mr. W.H."
0
Tom
4/15/2004 5:17:50 AM
"J�rn W. Janneck" <jwjanneck at yahoo dot com> wrote in message news:<c5jtco$gkt2@cliff.xsj.xilinx.com>...
> asj:
> 
> in spite of the "tongue-in-cheek," why would "we" have to worry about the
> popularity of languages in the first place, unless of course "we" are in the
> business of selling languages? if a new language becomes popular, how is
> this anything but another arrow in your quiver for solving problems?
> 
> cheers,

true, but in my case, the "popularity" of java is a very valid concern
because my livelihood depends on its continued dominance of the
programming landscape (which looks like a lock  for at least the next
5-10 years). unlike some, i've made a conscious decision to spend the
limited time i have in this world expanding and deepening my
capabilities in this very vibrant and rapidly growing platform - 
instead of trying to "time the market" and jump from one fad language
to another - thus becoming an expert in none (and probably wasting my
time on briefly-popular languages that never amounted to much in the
long run).
0
asj
4/15/2004 5:41:25 AM
In article <2bfb3b97.0404141745.1688ac19@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
> PHP is for web programming, and that's about it. it's a poor man's
> solution to the problem of putting together sites hastily (about the
> same as asp), which means it'll always be more popular with the masses
> of website programmers out there.

Like Yahoo?

-- 
--Tim Smith
0
Tim
4/15/2004 8:19:08 AM
"Tom Shelton" <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
news:3Uofc.185$Lu2.75307@news.uswest.net...
> On 2004-04-15, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
> > Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
news:<_8gfc.179$V02.45113@news.uswest.net>...
> >> In article <2bfb3b97.0404140855.462c6c80@posting.google.com>, asj
wrote:
> >> > Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of
programming
> >> > platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some
grain
> >> > of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after
eclipsing
> >> > C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining
popularity
> >> > (and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time
now).
> >>
> >> What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
> >> ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total
numbers and
> >> had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.
> >>
> >
> > except of course if you actually coded in java (instead of being a
> > troll) you'd know that a hell of a lot of java web sites don't even
> > show "servlets" and "jsp" in the URL.
> >
>
> I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx
extensions.

So, how do you (both of you) know which sites are "powered by" java and
which by .net?
For example: are all of Sun sites "powered by" java? Are all of
Microsoft sites "powered by" .net?

Are there some serious (heavy-traffic) sites "powered by" php?


0
Luke
4/15/2004 8:24:35 AM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:

> What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
> ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total numbers and
> had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.
> 
> I would give the link, but I can't get to netcraft.com for some reason
> right now. [...]

http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2004/03/23/aspnet_overtakes_jsp_and_java_servlets.html

Wot - no PHP?!?
-- 
__________
 |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.
0
Tim
4/15/2004 8:40:20 AM
"Tim Tyler" <tim@tt1lock.org> wrote in message
news:Hw7Er8.F6y@bath.ac.uk...
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:
>
> > What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
> > ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total numbers
and
> > had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.
> >
> > I would give the link, but I can't get to netcraft.com for some
reason
> > right now. [...]
>
>
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2004/03/23/aspnet_overtakes_jsp_and_ja
va_servlets.html

They (Netcraft) say that "the number of IP addresses with sites using
ASP.NET has overtaken those using JSP and Java Servlets". What do they
mean by "IP addresses"? I'm asking because they mention below that "The
figures are based on the following signatures:  ASP.NET - local
references to ASP.NET file extensions are found on the front page of the
site. Java Servlets - local references to .jhtml, .jsp, .gsp file
extensions, or a local url starting "/servlets"."

Can anyone shed more light on "IP addresses" regarding "local
references", please? Or point me to Netcraft methodology page (if there'
is one)?

> Wot - no PHP?!?

There is a certain _red_ line high above the green and blue ones,
though. ;-)


0
Luke
4/15/2004 9:19:45 AM
Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message news:<0Arfc.7349$l75.1145@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> In article <2bfb3b97.0404141745.1688ac19@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
> > PHP is for web programming, and that's about it. it's a poor man's
> > solution to the problem of putting together sites hastily (about the
> > same as asp), which means it'll always be more popular with the masses
> > of website programmers out there.
> 
> Like Yahoo?

i know of several enterprise class web apps written in php (one of
which is our crm), so what i was saying is "in general"....php is
cheap, comes bundled, and is easy (or so i read). its "prestige"
factor is close to zero when marketing it to the higher ups.
0
asj
4/15/2004 2:15:51 PM
In article <c5lgs3$315fa$1@ID-225698.news.uni-berlin.de>, Luke Tulkas wrote:
> 
> "Tom Shelton" <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
> news:3Uofc.185$Lu2.75307@news.uswest.net...
>> On 2004-04-15, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
>> > Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
> news:<_8gfc.179$V02.45113@news.uswest.net>...
>> >> In article <2bfb3b97.0404140855.462c6c80@posting.google.com>, asj
> wrote:
>> >> > Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of
> programming
>> >> > platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some
> grain
>> >> > of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after
> eclipsing
>> >> > C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining
> popularity
>> >> > (and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time
> now).
>> >>
>> >> What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
>> >> ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total
> numbers and
>> >> had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.
>> >>
>> >
>> > except of course if you actually coded in java (instead of being a
>> > troll) you'd know that a hell of a lot of java web sites don't even
>> > show "servlets" and "jsp" in the URL.
>> >
>>
>> I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx
> extensions.
> 
> So, how do you (both of you) know which sites are "powered by" java and
> which by .net?
> For example: are all of Sun sites "powered by" java? Are all of
> Microsoft sites "powered by" .net?
> 
> Are there some serious (heavy-traffic) sites "powered by" php?
> 
> 

There is no way really to know for sure a set number.  Web servers can
be configured to recognize different extensions.  But, in general an asp
site will have an extension of asp.  And asp.net site will have an
extension of aspx.  And a java site will usually have servlet and .jsp
in the URL.

Counting URL's is only an indicator of relative use - not an absolute
count.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
4/15/2004 3:30:10 PM
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:30:10 GMT, Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote:

> In article <c5lgs3$315fa$1@ID-225698.news.uni-berlin.de>, Luke Tulkas 
> wrote:
>>
>> "Tom Shelton" <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
>> news:3Uofc.185$Lu2.75307@news.uswest.net...
>>> On 2004-04-15, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
>>> > Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
>> news:<_8gfc.179$V02.45113@news.uswest.net>...
>>> >> In article <2bfb3b97.0404140855.462c6c80@posting.google.com>, asj
>> wrote:
>>> >> > Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of
>> programming
>>> >> > platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some
>> grain
>>> >> > of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after
>> eclipsing
>>> >> > C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining
>> popularity
>>> >> > (and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time
>> now).
>>> >>
>>> >> What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
>>> >> ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total
>> numbers and
>>> >> had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > except of course if you actually coded in java (instead of being a
>>> > troll) you'd know that a hell of a lot of java web sites don't even
>>> > show "servlets" and "jsp" in the URL.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx
>> extensions.
>>
>> So, how do you (both of you) know which sites are "powered by" java and
>> which by .net?
>> For example: are all of Sun sites "powered by" java? Are all of
>> Microsoft sites "powered by" .net?
>>
>> Are there some serious (heavy-traffic) sites "powered by" php?
>>
>>
>
> There is no way really to know for sure a set number.  Web servers can
> be configured to recognize different extensions.  But, in general an asp
> site will have an extension of asp.  And asp.net site will have an
> extension of aspx.  And a java site will usually have servlet and .jsp
> in the URL.

No - the use of /servlet/ has been strongly discouraged for years,
any serious servlet application will not have any distinquishing
words in the URL.

Bill
0
William
4/15/2004 4:33:52 PM
In article <opr6iayqiyu0i8d5@giga.realtime.net>, William Brogden wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:30:10 GMT, Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote:
> 
>> In article <c5lgs3$315fa$1@ID-225698.news.uni-berlin.de>, Luke Tulkas 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Tom Shelton" <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
>>> news:3Uofc.185$Lu2.75307@news.uswest.net...
>>>> On 2004-04-15, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
>>>> > Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<_8gfc.179$V02.45113@news.uswest.net>...
>>>> >> In article <2bfb3b97.0404140855.462c6c80@posting.google.com>, asj
>>> wrote:
>>>> >> > Tiobe publishes a monthly ranking of the popularity of
>>> programming
>>>> >> > platforms. It's based on google, so it has to be taken with some
>>> grain
>>>> >> > of salt. Java has been number one since a while now after
>>> eclipsing
>>>> >> > C++, but there are some languages that are rapidly gaining
>>> popularity
>>>> >> > (and no, it's not C#, which has been flatline for a long time
>>> now).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> What ever...  Didn't you see that article on netcraft last month -
>>>> >> ASP.NET overtakes JSP/Servlets.  ASP.NET passes JSP in total
>>> numbers and
>>>> >> had a growth rate of 224% as compared to a 56% for jsp.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > except of course if you actually coded in java (instead of being a
>>>> > troll) you'd know that a hell of a lot of java web sites don't even
>>>> > show "servlets" and "jsp" in the URL.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx
>>> extensions.
>>>
>>> So, how do you (both of you) know which sites are "powered by" java and
>>> which by .net?
>>> For example: are all of Sun sites "powered by" java? Are all of
>>> Microsoft sites "powered by" .net?
>>>
>>> Are there some serious (heavy-traffic) sites "powered by" php?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> There is no way really to know for sure a set number.  Web servers can
>> be configured to recognize different extensions.  But, in general an asp
>> site will have an extension of asp.  And asp.net site will have an
>> extension of aspx.  And a java site will usually have servlet and .jsp
>> in the URL.
> 
> No - the use of /servlet/ has been strongly discouraged for years,
> any serious servlet application will not have any distinquishing
> words in the URL.
> 
> Bill

That's nice....  Like I said you can't rely on these numbers - just as
you can't rely on this little google search that TIOBE runs.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
4/15/2004 5:56:54 PM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message >
> I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx extensions.

if true, this just shows that surveys like netcraft's are next to
useless, so you just proved my point.

> 
> Maybe, now that Sun is a subsidiary of MS - I'll get to try out the
> JDK1.5 based version of J#... :)
> 

hmmmm....i'm hoping you're actually kidding or else i'm debating with
a total fool. since microsoft has been settling its legal disputes
with several other companies (including sony i think), does that mean
microsoft owns all these companies too? you know, in REAL life,
oppossing sides settle their legal disputes  all the time outside
court (and in this case, just in case you're deluding yourself, sun
won by a big margin since it's they who got the $2 billion when they
were only suing for $1 billion).

wow! i guess you're the would-be successor to poor "me", eh? i used to
laugh about his points about sun's stock price, and guess who's still
here and laughing?
0
asj
4/15/2004 7:54:44 PM
asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote or quoted:

> php is cheap, comes bundled, and is easy (or so i read). its "prestige"
> factor is close to zero when marketing it to the higher ups.

I believe the PHP pitch is a bit like the VB one - RAD, easy to
learn, big pool of existing s/w, and lots of cheap programmers -
but don't try building a big mission-critical system out of it.
-- 
__________
 |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.
0
Tim
4/15/2004 9:19:44 PM
In article <2bfb3b97.0404151154.46e85336@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message >
>> I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx extensions.
> 
> if true, this just shows that surveys like netcraft's are next to
> useless, so you just proved my point.
> 

Which was my point.  You come in here with your useless TIOBE survey,
and I'm just pointing you to another one.

>> 
>> Maybe, now that Sun is a subsidiary of MS - I'll get to try out the
>> JDK1.5 based version of J#... :)
>> 
> 
> hmmmm....i'm hoping you're actually kidding or else i'm debating with
> a total fool. since microsoft has been settling its legal disputes
> with several other companies (including sony i think), does that mean
> microsoft owns all these companies too? you know, in REAL life,
> oppossing sides settle their legal disputes  all the time outside
> court (and in this case, just in case you're deluding yourself, sun
> won by a big margin since it's they who got the $2 billion when they
> were only suing for $1 billion).
> 
> wow! i guess you're the would-be successor to poor "me", eh? i used to
> laugh about his points about sun's stock price, and guess who's still
> here and laughing?

Dude - did you not see the smiley.  It was a joke.  Lighten up a bit.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
4/15/2004 10:07:48 PM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message 
> That's nice....  Like I said you can't rely on these numbers - just as
> you can't rely on this little google search that TIOBE runs.

actually, google, since it surveys such a large mass of data, and
whose methodology is not subject to the mistakes inherent in the
methodology of netcraft, would give a better and more accurate view of
things.

that is, whereas the vast majority of asp sites would have "asp" as
the extension, the many frameworks used in java (in addition to the
fact most production sites do NOT use "servlet" in the URL) means most
java sites would NOT be counted, a gross mistake that negates the
netcraft survey in a way not even approached by tiobe.

in addition, various other surveys show the overwhelming popularity
and dominance of java, from amazon.com's best seller lists (where java
dominates), to the job listings in any job sites, etc.

i pity you your delusionary view of life, but then again, you are a
troll (and not a good one at that) and cannot help yourself.

really, tom, i'll be here 5 years from now and java will be stronger
than ever, and you'll still be trying to figure out microsoft's NEXT
BIG THING, a hamster in microsoft's treadmill.

do you REALLY want to be like JTK, a pitiful remnant from the 1990s
who has been telling us java is dead for half a decade now? it's your
choice. we'll always win, simply because we're more determined than
you.
0
asj
4/16/2004 1:09:47 AM
On 2004-04-16, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message 
>> That's nice....  Like I said you can't rely on these numbers - just as
>> you can't rely on this little google search that TIOBE runs.
>
> actually, google, since it surveys such a large mass of data, and
> whose methodology is not subject to the mistakes inherent in the
> methodology of netcraft, would give a better and more accurate view of
> things.
>

The numbers thing is utterly ridiculous...  In march, netcraft surveyed
48,038,131 IP address.  I think that makes it statistically significant.
But, nice try.

> that is, whereas the vast majority of asp sites would have "asp" as
> the extension, the many frameworks used in java (in addition to the
> fact most production sites do NOT use "servlet" in the URL) means most
> java sites would NOT be counted, a gross mistake that negates the
> netcraft survey in a way not even approached by tiobe.
>

First off they were looking for aspx extensions - not asp, since the
comparison was asp.net versus jsp/servlets.  Second, what bases do you
have in saying that the vast majority of aspx sites show the extension?

I'll give you servlets, but the test was for .jsp as well.  Are you
saying that most developers hide the .jsp extension?  If they don't hide
the JSP extension, then I think it safe to say that 90% of the Java
sights are likely to be hit - I can't think that most sites that use
servlets would not use JSP as well.

> in addition, various other surveys show the overwhelming popularity
> and dominance of java, from amazon.com's best seller lists (where java
> dominates), to the job listings in any job sites, etc.
>

I'm not saying that it's not.  What I'm saying is that I think it is
starting to level off.  I think it is starting to run it's course - Java
is almost 10 years old.  And with the rise of Open Source, and Suns
refusal to release Java - I think that it is the begining of the end.
Oh, I think Java has a few more good years ahead of it - but it is
definately in the twilight of it's life.

> i pity you your delusionary view of life, but then again, you are a
> troll (and not a good one at that) and cannot help yourself.
>

So, because I don't agree with you I'm a troll?  Please.  Stop with the
personal attacks.  I haven't attacked you personally.  I simply don't
agree with your position.  And I really don't believe that the TIOBE
thing is all that accurate.

And I think I could say the same thing about you...  Looking on Google
shows that you have posted many, many times your anti-.NET pro-Java
stuff over on the microsoft.public.dotnet.* groups (many of them cross
posted here).  So stop with the troll crap.  This is an honest debate.
We may not agree, but that is no reason to be uncivil.

> really, tom, i'll be here 5 years from now and java will be stronger
> than ever, and you'll still be trying to figure out microsoft's NEXT
> BIG THING, a hamster in microsoft's treadmill.
>

Actually, in 5 years I'll probably be doing all my development on Linux
using Mono or dotGNU.

> do you REALLY want to be like JTK, a pitiful remnant from the 1990s
> who has been telling us java is dead for half a decade now? it's your
> choice. we'll always win, simply because we're more determined than
> you.

When have I said it was dead?  I never have.  But, the writings on the
wall.  Deny it all you want - but the fact is that Mono is starting to
gain some traction now that it is backed by Novell.  Novell owns SuSE
one of the best selling Linux desktop distros around.  Novell owns
Ximian, creators of GNOME.  They are saying they hope to build a lot of
Gnome 3.0 based on Mono and GTK#.  Looks like a good opertunity for us
C# guys...

-- 
Tom Shelton
Powered By Gentoo Linux 1.4
A successful [software] tool is one that was used to do something
undreamed of by its author.
		-- S. C. Johnson
0
Tom
4/16/2004 3:29:22 AM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<UIDfc.52$eB2.52820@news.uswest.net>...
> In article <2bfb3b97.0404151154.46e85336@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
> > Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message >
> >> I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx extensions.
> > 
> > if true, this just shows that surveys like netcraft's are next to
> > useless, so you just proved my point.
> > 
> 
> Which was my point.  You come in here with your useless TIOBE survey,
> and I'm just pointing you to another one.
> 

sorry, but you make a big mistake in equating the two. as i pointed
out elsewhere, the methodology in the case of the netcraft survey was
quite a bit inaccurate compared to the tiobe, which uses the gigantic
database that is google and is relatively strightforward. netcraft
ASSUMES all or most java sites have "servlets/jsp", when in fact most
probably don't...at the same time, the vast majority of asp/aspx
sites, do show the asp/aspx extension...there is no such big error in
the case of the google method.

in addition, various other surveys show the dominance of java, which
backs up the tiobe. stuff like the perdominance of java in the best
seller lists of amazon.com, the overwhelming number of java jobs in
the job listings, and others  point to the seeming accuracy of the
tiobe.

however, i do agree with you that asp would probably be found in more
web sites than J2EE anyway, while php is found in the most sites by a
large margin. but so what? as pointed out elsewhere, the ease of use
of php and asp make them good poor man solutions, whereas J2EE is (and
honestly, was, since the beginning) mostly used by large enterprises
because of its scalability, robustness, and cross platform
capabilities.

btw, this post was about php and java...the fact that you chimed in
with your defense of asp (and not c#, btw, which is the direct
competitor to java) seems to point towards some insecurity on your
part. i guess the "C# will kill java" chants of yesteryear didn't
work, eh?

rest assured, java will still be going strong and expanding when you
have ceased posting to this newsgroup. incredibly enough, there are
probably more java solutions deployed now than any other high
platform, including windows, and java certainly is growing much much
faster than windows. i cannot wait until 5-10 years from now, when
java is in ALL the hundreds of millions (billions?) of smartcards
deployed and used by citizens worldwide, and when mobile devices
everywhere in their billions run the various flavors of J2ME. perhaps
linux will have provided more competition for windows at that time due
to standardization by china and others on local linux and sun java
desktop flavors - at which point java may also have made a strong
comeback on the desktop! i CANNOT WAIT ;-)
0
asj
4/16/2004 5:18:52 AM
On 2004-04-16, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<UIDfc.52$eB2.52820@news.uswest.net>...
>> In article <2bfb3b97.0404151154.46e85336@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
>> > Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message >
>> >> I wonder how many .NET sites out there don't show there aspx extensions.
>> > 
>> > if true, this just shows that surveys like netcraft's are next to
>> > useless, so you just proved my point.
>> > 
>> 
>> Which was my point.  You come in here with your useless TIOBE survey,
>> and I'm just pointing you to another one.
>> 
>
> sorry, but you make a big mistake in equating the two. as i pointed
> out elsewhere, the methodology in the case of the netcraft survey was
> quite a bit inaccurate compared to the tiobe, which uses the gigantic
> database that is google and is relatively strightforward. netcraft
> ASSUMES all or most java sites have "servlets/jsp", when in fact most
> probably don't...at the same time, the vast majority of asp/aspx
> sites, do show the asp/aspx extension...there is no such big error in
> the case of the google method.
>

So you think that most jsp pages don't use a jsp extension, while most
asp.net sites will use aspx?  I don't believe it.  I will buy the no
servlet in the URL - but why would you hide the jsp?  But, still as I
already said - I can't imagine a website using servlets that didn't also
use jsp.

And since they were 48Million and some odd IP addresses, I think that
makes the survey statistacally correct.

> in addition, various other surveys show the dominance of java, which
> backs up the tiobe. stuff like the perdominance of java in the best
> seller lists of amazon.com, the overwhelming number of java jobs in
> the job listings, and others  point to the seeming accuracy of the
> tiobe.
>
> however, i do agree with you that asp would probably be found in more
> web sites than J2EE anyway, while php is found in the most sites by a
> large margin. but so what? as pointed out elsewhere, the ease of use
> of php and asp make them good poor man solutions, whereas J2EE is (and
> honestly, was, since the beginning) mostly used by large enterprises
> because of its scalability, robustness, and cross platform
> capabilities.
>
> btw, this post was about php and java...the fact that you chimed in
> with your defense of asp (and not c#, btw, which is the direct
> competitor to java) seems to point towards some insecurity on your
> part. i guess the "C# will kill java" chants of yesteryear didn't
> work, eh?
>

1. Look at the title - it referes to C#.  You were the one that brought
up C#, not me.

2. I have never been a "C# will kill java" chanter.  Yes, I like C# a
hell of a lot better then Java - I won't lie about that - but I don't
mind Java either.  I would rate Java as my B list language.

3. I'm not defending ASP or ASP.NET.  I am not now, nor ever have been
an ASP programmer.  I simply pointed you to a differing view, since you
were talking about php vs. jsp and how C# wasn't a threat.

4. The only reason I got involved in this discussion is because I've
always hated the tiobe thing...  It just feels wrong to me.

> rest assured, java will still be going strong and expanding when you
> have ceased posting to this newsgroup. incredibly enough, there are
> probably more java solutions deployed now than any other high
> platform, including windows, and java certainly is growing much much
> faster than windows. i cannot wait until 5-10 years from now, when
> java is in ALL the hundreds of millions (billions?) of smartcards
> deployed and used by citizens worldwide, and when mobile devices
> everywhere in their billions run the various flavors of J2ME. perhaps
> linux will have provided more competition for windows at that time due
> to standardization by china and others on local linux and sun java
> desktop flavors - at which point java may also have made a strong
> comeback on the desktop! i CANNOT WAIT ;-)

I hardley ever post to this news group anymore as it is - I've usually
go better things to do with my time.  As for deployed
solutions...  Unless something has changed in the last couple
of years I believe that distinction goes to Visual Basic.

Java will never, ever make a strong showing on the desktop.  It has had
10 years to do that, and if it hasn't done it yet I don't think it ever
will...  Especially since Java is not the most favored of tools by open 
source advocates.  Hardcore oss guys seem to think that java is a bit to 
proprietary to be of any use.  And don't even get me started as to what 
most windows guys think of Java for desktop apps...  Suns "Java" desktop 
is nothing more then a Gnome desktop with a JVM included.  It is nothing 
more then a marketing scheme.  Good for them if it works, but I'm not 
going to pay for the (what is it now $50 a year?) priveledge of having 
a JVM on my Linux box.  I've already got that, and it didn't cost me a 
dime.  But, I do hope that Linux does provide some much needed
competition on the desktop...  In fact, I already think it is doing
that.  Sure, it isn't threat today - but MS isn't blind.

On embeded devices, and servers - I think Java will continue to make a
strong showing...  For a while.  Like I have said, many times - C# and
..NET won't really make a strong showing until the release of Longhorn,
and that's probably going to be in 2006.  So, I was off by a year...

Of course, with the little I've seen of Whidby (VS.NET 2005) - it may
still be in 2005 :)

-- 
Tom Shelton
Powered By Gentoo Linux 1.4
Old mail has arrived.
0
Tom
4/16/2004 6:28:30 AM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:

> I'll give you servlets, but the test was for .jsp as well.  Are you
> saying that most developers hide the .jsp extension?

It is recommended practice.

The server-side technology you are using is an implementation detail.

Your site's URLs are part of its public interface.

As everyone gets taught in comp-sci 101 - you should *avoid* exposing
implementation details in your public interface.
-- 
__________
 |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.
0
Tim
4/16/2004 6:45:41 AM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:

> So you think that most jsp pages don't use a jsp extension, while most
> asp.net sites will use aspx?  I don't believe it.  I will buy the no
> servlet in the URL - but why would you hide the jsp?

Because the technology you are using on the server is an implementation 
detail - while your site's URLs are part of its public interface.

Do you put "foo.html" pages on your web site?

You shouldn't - it stops you from switching to PHP, SHTML, ASP, JSP - or
any other server-side technology - without breaking existing URLs and 
links to your site - or using crummy redirect hacks all over the place.

The same applies to the "jsp" extension.

> But, still as I already said - I can't imagine a website using servlets 
> that didn't also use jsp.

Servlets are sensible technology - while JSPs are a crappy, half-baked
clone of ASP.

Run it by me again why anyone should use JSP - as opposed to any of the
other Java presentation logic systems available?
-- 
__________
 |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.
0
Tim
4/16/2004 6:52:10 AM
On 2004-04-16, Tim Tyler <tim@tt1lock.org> wrote:
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:
>
>> I'll give you servlets, but the test was for .jsp as well.  Are you
>> saying that most developers hide the .jsp extension?
>
> It is recommended practice.
>
> The server-side technology you are using is an implementation detail.
>
> Your site's URLs are part of its public interface.
>
> As everyone gets taught in comp-sci 101 - you should *avoid* exposing
> implementation details in your public interface.

That's just taking it a bit far, IMHO.  But, Tim your opinion I respect
- since you seem to be a generally reasonable guy.  So, I'll take your
  word for it.  Still seems a little over the top to me.

But, do you think this is really, truely a wide spread practice or are
you just trying to stand up for Java?

-- 
Tom Shelton
Powered By Gentoo Linux 1.4
Living in the complex world of the future is somewhat like having bees
live in your head.  But, there they are.
0
Tom
4/16/2004 7:31:06 AM
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 03:29:22 GMT, Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote:

> On 2004-04-16, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
>> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message
>>> That's nice....  Like I said you can't rely on these numbers - just as
>>> you can't rely on this little google search that TIOBE runs.
>>
>> actually, google, since it surveys such a large mass of data, and
>> whose methodology is not subject to the mistakes inherent in the
>> methodology of netcraft, would give a better and more accurate view of
>> things.
>>
>
> The numbers thing is utterly ridiculous...  In march, netcraft surveyed
> 48,038,131 IP address.  I think that makes it statistically significant.
> But, nice try.
>
>> that is, whereas the vast majority of asp sites would have "asp" as
>> the extension, the many frameworks used in java (in addition to the
>> fact most production sites do NOT use "servlet" in the URL) means most
>> java sites would NOT be counted, a gross mistake that negates the
>> netcraft survey in a way not even approached by tiobe.
>>
>
> First off they were looking for aspx extensions - not asp, since the
> comparison was asp.net versus jsp/servlets.  Second, what bases do you
> have in saying that the vast majority of aspx sites show the extension?
>
> I'll give you servlets, but the test was for .jsp as well.  Are you
> saying that most developers hide the .jsp extension?  If they don't hide
> the JSP extension, then I think it safe to say that 90% of the Java
> sights are likely to be hit - I can't think that most sites that use
> servlets would not use JSP as well.
>

In the real world, the best practice calls for "model 2" style programming
where the request first comes to a servlet that is responsible for figuring
out what to do with it. Requests to be handled by JSP are forwarded
internally - the user may never see .jsp at all.

Struts - http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/
is an example of this sort of framework.
0
William
4/16/2004 12:45:45 PM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<_YLfc.213$yB2.84064@news.uswest.net>...
> That's just taking it a bit far, IMHO.  But, Tim your opinion I respect
> - since you seem to be a generally reasonable guy.  So, I'll take your
>   word for it.  Still seems a little over the top to me.
> 
> But, do you think this is really, truely a wide spread practice or are
> you just trying to stand up for Java?

tom, many new java developers don't even KNOW about servlets...there
was a blog about this once where i defended the fact people still need
to know about servlets and jsp (and got hounded for it), but nowadays,
many use some framework or the other, which hides the actual details
of implementation. (struts e.g.)...

the result of this is a proliferation of frameworks upon frameworks,
which unfortunately, adds to the "complexity" of j2ee by giving too
many choices.
hani's bileblog spoofs this here:
http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20040408#move_over_frameworks_here_come

personally, i go against the flow and still use my own MVC framework,
but i still hide the "servlets" in the URL (this is very easily done
using a few lines in the web.xml file of your webapp) as a common
practice.
0
asj
4/16/2004 2:07:59 PM
Tim Tyler <tim@tt1lock.org>  wrote in message news:<Hw8Dww.JEI@bath.ac.uk>...
> asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote or quoted:
> 
> > php is cheap, comes bundled, and is easy (or so i read). its "prestige"
> > factor is close to zero when marketing it to the higher ups.
> 
> I believe the PHP pitch is a bit like the VB one - RAD, easy to
> learn, big pool of existing s/w, and lots of cheap programmers -
> but don't try building a big mission-critical system out of it.

which doesn't prevent people from doing so anyways ;-)
0
asj
4/16/2004 2:09:49 PM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<mqIfc.169$yB2.63682@news.uswest.net>...
> The numbers thing is utterly ridiculous...  In march, netcraft surveyed
> 48,038,131 IP address.  I think that makes it statistically significant.
> But, nice try.

no it's not because the methodology of netcraft is wrong because it
ignortes most java sites out there by ignoring all the framwork based
apps. on the other hand, then tiobe is based on a straightforward
method that uses google's 3-4 billion websites and usenet groups.


> First off they were looking for aspx extensions - not asp, since the
> comparison was asp.net versus jsp/servlets.  Second, what bases do you
> have in saying that the vast majority of aspx sites show the extension?
> 


ah...because one of my developers work uses asp (and knows some aspx)
and i asked him. pretty scientific eh? on the other hand, you seem to
have no clue at all about java.


> I'll give you servlets, but the test was for .jsp as well.  Are you
> saying that most developers hide the .jsp extension?  If they don't hide
> the JSP extension, then I think it safe to say that 90% of the Java
> sights are likely to be hit - I can't think that most sites that use
> servlets would not use JSP as well.


i suggest delving deeper into java before making such statement...a
lot of java frameworks do NOT show the jsp extension.


> 
> > in addition, various other surveys show the overwhelming popularity
> > and dominance of java, from amazon.com's best seller lists (where java
> > dominates), to the job listings in any job sites, etc.
> >
> 
> I'm not saying that it's not.  What I'm saying is that I think it is
> starting to level off.  I think it is starting to run it's course - Java
> is almost 10 years old.  And with the rise of Open Source, and Suns
> refusal to release Java - I think that it is the begining of the end.
> Oh, I think Java has a few more good years ahead of it - but it is
> definately in the twilight of it's life.


hmmm...running its course? now i know you are clueless. java usage
beyond the desktop is increasing almost exponentially (and i noticed
quite a lot of newbies getting into java because of J2ME). and with
the settlement between sun/ms (which is why i approve of that), sun's
deals with pc vendors to bundle the jvm around windows (according to
sun, 60% of new PCs today come bundled with the standard JVM), and the
fact sun's java desktop is doing pretty well (and that comes with the
jvm), you might actually see a new explosion of java desktop apps. the
funny thing is how even windows users on pocket pc smartphones are
clamoring for java...funny eh?
http://www.jroller.com/page/kalimantan/20040408#windows_users_clamor_for_java

btw, i passed by the libary recently and saw one old (2001) c#
book...has c# done anything since then? uh...no...the moniker
"java-killer" that was placed on it so long ago now seems laughable
(and btw, i WAS laughing at people who were saying that even before c
sharp was named c sharp)


> So, because I don't agree with you I'm a troll?  Please.  Stop with the
> personal attacks.  I haven't attacked you personally.  I simply don't
> agree with your position.  


nopem, you're a troll because this is a java advocacy group and you
exists here solely to provide entertainment - just like JTK, just like
the late lamented "me", and superspinner and all the others. thank you
for that at least.


> 
> And I think I could say the same thing about you...  Looking on Google
> shows that you have posted many, many times your anti-.NET pro-Java
> stuff over on the microsoft.public.dotnet.* groups (many of them cross
> posted here).  So stop with the troll crap.  This is an honest debate.
> We may not agree, but that is no reason to be uncivil.
> 


indeed, and you have noticed that i have stopped doing that? perhaps
it's time you learned the same lesson.


> > really, tom, i'll be here 5 years from now and java will be stronger
> > than ever, and you'll still be trying to figure out microsoft's NEXT
> > BIG THING, a hamster in microsoft's treadmill.
> >
> 
> Actually, in 5 years I'll probably be doing all my development on Linux
> using Mono or dotGNU.


uh...no you won't cause there's no money in it. believe me, i'll be
laughing at your posts 5 years from now, just as i laugh at me's posts
and jtk's and all the other java-naysayers posts from yesteryear.
0
asj
4/16/2004 2:32:06 PM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<i2Lfc.201$yB2.80293@news.uswest.net>...
> 
> And since they were 48Million and some odd IP addresses, I think that
> makes the survey statistacally correct.

uh, no. this still does not make the survey correct since the
methodology is wrong. how hard is this to get into your head?
0
asj
4/16/2004 2:34:31 PM
Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:
> On 2004-04-16, Tim Tyler <tim@tt1lock.org> wrote:
> > Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:

> >> I'll give you servlets, but the test was for .jsp as well.  Are you
> >> saying that most developers hide the .jsp extension?
> >
> > It is recommended practice.
> >
> > The server-side technology you are using is an implementation detail.
> >
> > Your site's URLs are part of its public interface.
> >
> > As everyone gets taught in comp-sci 101 - you should *avoid* exposing
> > implementation details in your public interface.
> 
> That's just taking it a bit far, IMHO.  But, Tim your opinion I respect
> - since you seem to be a generally reasonable guy.  So, I'll take your
>   word for it.  Still seems a little over the top to me.
> 
> But, do you think this is really, truely a wide spread practice or are
> you just trying to stand up for Java?

I haven't conducted a surver to see how many folk encapsulate their
server-side technology and eliminate it from their URLs - I'm just
saying that doing so is usually a good idea - and tidies up your
site's URLs.

My subjective impression is that much fewer than half the sites in
the world do this - i.e. it isn't terribly widely practiced.
-- 
__________
 |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.
0
Tim
4/16/2004 3:15:21 PM
In article <2bfb3b97.0404160632.4717216a@posting.google.com>, asj wrote:
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<mqIfc.169$yB2.63682@news.uswest.net>...
>> The numbers thing is utterly ridiculous...  In march, netcraft surveyed
>> 48,038,131 IP address.  I think that makes it statistically significant.
>> But, nice try.
> 
> no it's not because the methodology of netcraft is wrong because it
> ignortes most java sites out there by ignoring all the framwork based
> apps. on the other hand, then tiobe is based on a straightforward
> method that uses google's 3-4 billion websites and usenet groups.
> 

I understand that it is going to miss some sites - but is it most?
Really?  Of course there is a margin of error - but what do you think
that margin is?

By the way, I'm looking at the amazon top 25 best selling general
programming books...  Number one is a java book.  2 and 3 are php.
Number 4 is a .net book.  But in the top 25, I'm seeing a roughly equal
number of both java and .net/c# books.  I wouldn't exactly call that
dominating.

>> First off they were looking for aspx extensions - not asp, since the
>> comparison was asp.net versus jsp/servlets.  Second, what bases do you
>> have in saying that the vast majority of aspx sites show the extension?
>> 
> 
> 
> ah...because one of my developers work uses asp (and knows some aspx)
> and i asked him. pretty scientific eh? on the other hand, you seem to
> have no clue at all about java.
> 

I'm not a java dev and I'm not a web guy - so, yes in some ways I'm a
little ignorant.  I am only speaking from my limited experience.

> 
>> I'll give you servlets, but the test was for .jsp as well.  Are you
>> saying that most developers hide the .jsp extension?  If they don't hide
>> the JSP extension, then I think it safe to say that 90% of the Java
>> sights are likely to be hit - I can't think that most sites that use
>> servlets would not use JSP as well.
> 
> 
> i suggest delving deeper into java before making such statement...a
> lot of java frameworks do NOT show the jsp extension.
> 

Ok.  How many of them are used?

> 
>> 
>> > in addition, various other surveys show the overwhelming popularity
>> > and dominance of java, from amazon.com's best seller lists (where java
>> > dominates), to the job listings in any job sites, etc.
>> >
>> 
>> I'm not saying that it's not.  What I'm saying is that I think it is
>> starting to level off.  I think it is starting to run it's course - Java
>> is almost 10 years old.  And with the rise of Open Source, and Suns
>> refusal to release Java - I think that it is the begining of the end.
>> Oh, I think Java has a few more good years ahead of it - but it is
>> definately in the twilight of it's life.
> 
> 
> hmmm...running its course? now i know you are clueless. java usage
> beyond the desktop is increasing almost exponentially (and i noticed
> quite a lot of newbies getting into java because of J2ME). and with
> the settlement between sun/ms (which is why i approve of that), sun's
> deals with pc vendors to bundle the jvm around windows (according to
> sun, 60% of new PCs today come bundled with the standard JVM), and the
> fact sun's java desktop is doing pretty well (and that comes with the
> jvm), you might actually see a new explosion of java desktop apps. the
> funny thing is how even windows users on pocket pc smartphones are
> clamoring for java...funny eh?
> http://www.jroller.com/page/kalimantan/20040408#windows_users_clamor_for_java
> 
> btw, i passed by the libary recently and saw one old (2001) c#
> book...has c# done anything since then? uh...no...the moniker
> "java-killer" that was placed on it so long ago now seems laughable
> (and btw, i WAS laughing at people who were saying that even before c
> sharp was named c sharp)
> 
> 
>> So, because I don't agree with you I'm a troll?  Please.  Stop with the
>> personal attacks.  I haven't attacked you personally.  I simply don't
>> agree with your position.  
> 
> 
> nopem, you're a troll because this is a java advocacy group and you
> exists here solely to provide entertainment - just like JTK, just like
> the late lamented "me", and superspinner and all the others. thank you
> for that at least.
> 

I'm not here to provide entertainment.  I'm not even here to argue with
anyone.  In fact, most of the time, I just read and move on.  It's just
this one topic that I enjoy debating on.  I'm not in here posting Sun
stock quotes or saying how sucky Java is (well most of the time:).  I
don't really think Java is all that bad.  But, I've moved on and so, I
guess I'm now a little out of touch.

> 
>> 
>> And I think I could say the same thing about you...  Looking on Google
>> shows that you have posted many, many times your anti-.NET pro-Java
>> stuff over on the microsoft.public.dotnet.* groups (many of them cross
>> posted here).  So stop with the troll crap.  This is an honest debate.
>> We may not agree, but that is no reason to be uncivil.
>> 
> 
> 
> indeed, and you have noticed that i have stopped doing that? perhaps
> it's time you learned the same lesson.
> 

Fine.  From now on I will not respond to any of your stuff.  As long as
I don't see any threads of yours over on the .net groups.  I'm not a
troll.  I don't come here to argue, and I will freely admit it when I'm
shown to be wrong.  Yes, being wrong sucks - but you can't be right
about everything :)


> 
>> > really, tom, i'll be here 5 years from now and java will be stronger
>> > than ever, and you'll still be trying to figure out microsoft's NEXT
>> > BIG THING, a hamster in microsoft's treadmill.
>> >
>> 
>> Actually, in 5 years I'll probably be doing all my development on Linux
>> using Mono or dotGNU.
> 
> 
> uh...no you won't cause there's no money in it. believe me, i'll be
> laughing at your posts 5 years from now, just as i laugh at me's posts
> and jtk's and all the other java-naysayers posts from yesteryear.

Maybe, maybe not.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
4/16/2004 4:46:35 PM
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004, Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote:
> On 2004-04-16, asj <asj@blueboard.com> wrote:
>> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message 
>>> That's nice....  Like I said you can't rely on these numbers - just as
>>> you can't rely on this little google search that TIOBE runs.
>>
>> actually, google, since it surveys such a large mass of data, and
>> whose methodology is not subject to the mistakes inherent in the
>> methodology of netcraft, would give a better and more accurate view of
>> things.
>>
> 
> The numbers thing is utterly ridiculous...  In march, netcraft surveyed
> 48,038,131 IP address.  I think that makes it statistically significant.
> But, nice try.

A common fallacy. You could poll the entire population of a country,
but if you ask the wrong questions, you'll still get an inaccurate
picture of reality.
0
Leach
4/17/2004 1:09:54 AM
On 2004-04-16, Tim Tyler <tim@tt1lock.org> wrote:
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:
>> On 2004-04-16, Tim Tyler <tim@tt1lock.org> wrote:
>> > Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote or quoted:
>
>> >> I'll give you servlets, but the test was for .jsp as well.  Are you
>> >> saying that most developers hide the .jsp extension?
>> >
>> > It is recommended practice.
>> >
>> > The server-side technology you are using is an implementation detail.
>> >
>> > Your site's URLs are part of its public interface.
>> >
>> > As everyone gets taught in comp-sci 101 - you should *avoid* exposing
>> > implementation details in your public interface.
>> 
>> That's just taking it a bit far, IMHO.  But, Tim your opinion I respect
>> - since you seem to be a generally reasonable guy.  So, I'll take your
>>   word for it.  Still seems a little over the top to me.
>> 
>> But, do you think this is really, truely a wide spread practice or are
>> you just trying to stand up for Java?
>
> I haven't conducted a surver to see how many folk encapsulate their
> server-side technology and eliminate it from their URLs - I'm just
> saying that doing so is usually a good idea - and tidies up your
> site's URLs.
>
> My subjective impression is that much fewer than half the sites in
> the world do this - i.e. it isn't terribly widely practiced.

Thank you for your honesty.  If this is true, then it would seem to me
that the netcraft numbers then have at least a bit of validity.

-- 
Tom Shelton
Powered By Gentoo Linux 1.4
The savior becomes the victim.
0
Tom
4/17/2004 2:17:09 AM
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:33:52 -0500, William Brogden <wbrogden@bga.com>
wrote or quoted :

>No - the use of /servlet/ has been strongly discouraged for years,
>any serious servlet application will not have any distinquishing
>words in the URL.

You might be able to guess by examining the HTML generated.  Are there
fingerprints you could use for clues?

--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. 
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
0
Roedy
4/18/2004 8:56:46 PM
On 14 Apr 2004 18:45:02 -0700, asj@blueboard.com (asj) wrote or quoted
:

>PHP is for web programming, and that's about it. it's a poor man's
>solution to the problem of putting together sites hastily (about the
>same as asp), which means it'll always be more popular with the masses
>of website programmers out there.

I took a 2 hour introduction to PHP.  What impressed me was the lack
of bubblegum you had to write to get ordinary things done.  I would
hope that puts an evolutionary pressure on Java to streamline.


--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. 
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
0
Roedy
4/18/2004 8:59:16 PM
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 20:56:46 GMT, Roedy Green <see@mindprod.com.invalid> 
wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:33:52 -0500, William Brogden <wbrogden@bga.com>
> wrote or quoted :
>
>> No - the use of /servlet/ has been strongly discouraged for years,
>> any serious servlet application will not have any distinquishing
>> words in the URL.
>
> You might be able to guess by examining the HTML generated.  Are there
> fingerprints you could use for clues?
>

Hmm - what an interesting question. I suspect that the variation in
programmer styles and toolkits is large enough to mask any distinctive
"servlet" style. These days we see a HUGE variation in the content of
finished HTML pages. Compare pages written with good use of CSS versus
MS Word's "HTML" output with the ghastly proliferation of un-needed tags.

Bill
0
William
4/19/2004 12:52:21 PM
In article <c5lgs3$315fa$1@ID-225698.news.uni-berlin.de>, Luke Tulkas wrote:
> Are there some serious (heavy-traffic) sites "powered by" php?

Yahoo.

-- 
--Tim Smith
0
Tim
4/21/2004 8:39:35 AM
"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:brqhc.4913$gH6.1586@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> In article <c5lgs3$315fa$1@ID-225698.news.uni-berlin.de>, Luke Tulkas
wrote:
> > Are there some serious (heavy-traffic) sites "powered by" php?
>
> Yahoo.

I thought that php was too slow for such a site. I guess I was wrong.


0
Luke
4/21/2004 2:48:18 PM
asj wrote:
> Tom Shelton <tom@mtogden.com> wrote in message news:<i2Lfc.201$yB2.80293@news.uswest.net>...
> 
>>And since they were 48Million and some odd IP addresses, I think that
>>makes the survey statistacally correct.
> 
> 
> uh, no. this still does not make the survey correct since the
> methodology is wrong. how hard is this to get into your head?

A lot of asp and .net sites do in fact hide the extension. so I am not 
sure that your objection about methodology is correct. The only way to 
find out would be to check what proportion of jsp/servlet sites (with or 
without struts, webwork, standard tag library, or similar frameworks and 
libraries) hide .jsp extensions and what proportion of asp/aspx sites 
hide .asp and .aspx extensions.

0
altkey
4/27/2004 8:22:53 AM
Reply: