What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
three candidates:

revalidate()
repaint()
update()

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:21:17 -0400, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
>three candidates:
>
>revalidate()
>repaint()
>update()

look those words up in the Java glossary so you understand what each
are for.
-- 

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

zerg wrote:
> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
> three candidates:
> 
> revalidate()
> repaint()
> update()

Read Roedy's post and then tell us what you really want to do and what 
you've been doing before that.

-- 

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute2008/

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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Knute Johnson wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
>> three candidates:
>>
>> revalidate()
>> repaint()
>> update()
> 
> Read Roedy's post and then tell us what you really want to do and what 
> you've been doing before that.

I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
forbids the giving of a straight answer.

In case it somehow matters, I've implemented a custom JList subclass 
with a custom cell renderer and some other custom behavior. In response 
to certain new set methods, the behavior of the cell renderer changes, 
and the visible portion of the list obviously needs to be repainted when 
this occurs.

I suppose I could do something hackish like set the list's ListModel to 
the existing ListModel ... :P

(Also, is there a way to get the NetBeans GUI editor to recognize new 
component classes? Or, perhaps better, to simply bypass it and code the 
UI manually, but still get the FrameView saving and restoring of window 
state? And is the list definitely only going to call on the cell 
renderer to paint the visible cells at any given time? I would prefer 
this to be able to scale well with large lists, potentially 10,000 items 
or more, with the ListModel storing say 10,000 Integers or other such 
handles rather than larger objects that may be retrieved from disk or a 
DB on demand.)

zerg wrote:
> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
>>> three candidates:
>>>
>>> revalidate()
>>> repaint()
>>> update()
>>
>> Read Roedy's post and then tell us what you really want to do and what 
>> you've been doing before that.
> 
> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
> forbids the giving of a straight answer.

Which maybe extends to Sun itself -- I found the API docs less than 100% 
clear here, and even the Java Tutorial.

Provisionally, I'm using "repaint(getBounds())"; why there isn't a 
no-args repaint-the-whole-thing method will probably remain an enduring 
mystery long after my app has matured, had its heyday, and become 
obsolete...

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:35:50 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got  
>>> three candidates:
>>>
>>> revalidate()
>>> repaint()
>>> update()
>>  Read Roedy's post and then tell us what you really want to do and what  
>> you've been doing before that.
>
> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that  
> forbids the giving of a straight answer.

Forgive us if we suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code among  
questioners that forbids the inspection of the relevant documentation  
before asking a question.

The documentation is reasonably clear on what each of those three methods  
you describe are used for, and only one is intended for client code to  
cause a JComponent to repaint itself.

Either you never bothered to even read the documentation, or there's  
something more to your question than simply "what's the API-approved to  
force a repaint?"  Either way, your question isn't a well-formed one.

If I understand your follow-up correctly, you simply have some sort of  
custom component that needs to be redrawn when internal state changes that  
would be reflected visually.  Assuming that's the correct interpretation,  
then the documentation does in fact provide all of the necessary  
information you need.

If there's something about the documentation that is confusing you,  
there's no shame in being specific about that and asking for help with  
it.  If you have read the documentation and need some help, then say so  
and be specific about what kind of help you need.  If you simply ask a  
question that the documentation does in fact answer, the most obvious  
explanation is that you haven't bothered to look at the documentation at  
all.

Pete

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:43:46 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

>>  I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that  
>> forbids the giving of a straight answer.
>
> Which maybe extends to Sun itself -- I found the API docs less than 100%  
> clear here, and even the Java Tutorial.

I admit that the Java SDK docs aren't the best docs I've ever seen.  But  
in this case, you know the exact names of the methods in question and can  
easily examine the documentation for each to learn what each is for.  I  
don't see any ambiguity that would lead to a misunderstanding here.

> Provisionally, I'm using "repaint(getBounds())"; why there isn't a  
> no-args repaint-the-whole-thing method will probably remain an enduring  
> mystery long after my app has matured, had its heyday, and become  
> obsolete...

The only mystery is how you missed it:
http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/awt/Component.html#repaint()

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:35:50 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
>> forbids the giving of a straight answer.
> 
> Forgive us if we suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code among 
> questioners that forbids the inspection of the relevant documentation 
> before asking a question.

Suspect what you will, but I did indeed examine the JComponent API docs, 
and there were three public methods associated with repainting -- not 
counting that repaint() had two overloads.

I may have been somewhat biased by what I was specifically searching 
for, namely a no-argument method for "repaint the whole component". It 
looks like maybe that is simply lacking.

> Either you never bothered to even read the documentation, or there's 
> something more to your question than simply "what's the API-approved to 
> force a repaint?"  Either way, your question isn't a well-formed one.

Anything that I say is well-formed, and I am not in the mood to be 
publicly insulted by you or anyone else here. I came here asking for 
advice in good faith and I don't appreciate being treated in such a manner.

> If I understand your follow-up correctly, you simply have some sort of 
> custom component that needs to be redrawn when internal state changes 
> that would be reflected visually.  Assuming that's the correct 
> interpretation, then the documentation does in fact provide all of the 
> necessary information you need.

Perhaps it does, but it is less than clear, for whatever reason. 
Probably because the API docs are organized around a 
what-this-thingamajig-does scheme, while the tutorial, though organized 
around a how-to-do-X scheme, rather glosses over repainting of 
components, other than to make it clear that to paint custom stuff 
(rather than just at custom times) you override paintComponent.

> If there's something about the documentation that is confusing you, 
> there's no shame in being specific about that and asking for help with 
> it.

That's more or less what I did, except that I simply asked directly for 
the answer to the question that I had, instead of for clarification of a 
particular bit of the docs.

> If you have read the documentation and need some help, then say so 
> and be specific about what kind of help you need.

Fine. From now on, when I have a highly specific question like "what is 
the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself?", instead of just 
asking "what is the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself?", 
I will do as you advise here and say "I've read the documentation, but 
still have a question: what is the best way to force a JComponent to 
repaint itself?" -- satisfied?

> If you simply ask a question that the documentation does in fact
>  answer, the most obvious explanation is that you haven't bothered
> to look at the documentation at all.

Sometimes the most obvious explanation is wrong. Regardless, what the 
explanation is is not relevant. The question I asked was about 
JComponent painting, not about what the most likely explanation was for 
why I asked the question. If you'd please just focus on the actual 
content of a post asking a question, and refrain from speculating about 
why the poster might have asked it or other unimportant things like that 
that have no bearing on things, I think people might appreciate that. 
People post questions here to get them answered, not to get sidetracked 
into unrelated topics to satisfy your curiosity as to peoples' motives 
in asking questions or for any similar such reason.

It's best to just take peoples' questions at face value, and give them a 
simple, correct answer that they can apply immediately. I don't know 
about you, but when I have a question, I'm generally interested in 
getting an answer as quickly as possible, and one that can be applied 
immediately. Therefore I've already read all the obviously-relevant 
documentation, since if it has the answer in a clear and unambiguous 
form that will get me moving much quicker than waiting for someone to 
reply on a Usenet group. If that doesn't suffice, then I ask a question 
here, and at that point I'm not going to be pleased if instead of the 
one iteration of post-reply that it SHOULD take for me to get an answer 
back, it ends up taking two or three because people want to satisfy 
their idle curiosity as to why I'm asking the question, and of course if 
they simply answered it straight away, I might go away and not answer 
their questions! So they withhold my answer until they have satisfied 
their curiosity -- wasting my time and everyone's bandwidth with matters 
that are tangential, at best, to the purpose of this newsgroup.

Please don't do that any more. I find it annoying. If I ask "how to do 
X", please just tell me, in simple terms, how to do X. If you think the 
documentation should have answered it for me, well, apparently it 
didn't. If you want, you can certainly point to the bit of the 
documentation that you think unambiguously answers the question and ask 
me why I didn't apparently one of find it relevant enough to look at or 
find it clear and certain enough to use, AT THE SAME TIME as supplying 
the actual answer. Then, since I'll have the answer I need to continue 
with my work without delay, I am likely to be able to find some time 
later to satisfy your curiosity a bit, and therefore I am likely to 
answer, and to be much less annoyed and irritated when I do.

Thank you.

zerg wrote:
> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
>>> three candidates:
>>>
>>> revalidate()
>>> repaint()
>>> update()
>>
>> Read Roedy's post and then tell us what you really want to do and what 
>> you've been doing before that.
> 
> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
> forbids the giving of a straight answer.

Well forgive me but if you want to repaint() something repaint() it.

> In case it somehow matters, I've implemented a custom JList subclass 
> with a custom cell renderer and some other custom behavior. In response 
> to certain new set methods, the behavior of the cell renderer changes, 
> and the visible portion of the list obviously needs to be repainted when 
> this occurs.

So you are changing some data in your ListModel and it isn't being 
reflected in your JList?  You've got other problems than repaint().  Are 
you adding or removing components?  Are you making your changes to your 
ListModel on the EDT?

> I suppose I could do something hackish like set the list's ListModel to 
> the existing ListModel ... :P
> 
> (Also, is there a way to get the NetBeans GUI editor to recognize new 
> component classes? Or, perhaps better, to simply bypass it and code the 
> UI manually, but still get the FrameView saving and restoring of window 
> state? And is the list definitely only going to call on the cell 
> renderer to paint the visible cells at any given time? I would prefer 
> this to be able to scale well with large lists, potentially 10,000 items 
> or more, with the ListModel storing say 10,000 Integers or other such 
> handles rather than larger objects that may be retrieved from disk or a 
> DB on demand.)


-- 

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute2008/

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
      ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
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zerg wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've 
>>>> got three candidates:
>>>>
>>>> revalidate()
>>>> repaint()
>>>> update()
>>>
>>> Read Roedy's post and then tell us what you really want to do and 
>>> what you've been doing before that.
>>
>> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
>> forbids the giving of a straight answer.
> 
> Which maybe extends to Sun itself -- I found the API docs less than 100% 
> clear here, and even the Java Tutorial.

No doubt.

> Provisionally, I'm using "repaint(getBounds())"; why there isn't a 
> no-args repaint-the-whole-thing method will probably remain an enduring 
> mystery long after my app has matured, had its heyday, and become 
> obsolete...

If you had looked at the docs you would have seen that the no-arg 
repaint() belongs to Component.

So tell us, are you updating your ListModel on the EDT?

-- 

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute2008/

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:43:46 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Which maybe extends to Sun itself -- I found the API docs less than 
>> 100% clear here, and even the Java Tutorial.
> 
> I admit that the Java SDK docs aren't the best docs I've ever seen.  But 
> in this case, you know the exact names of the methods in question and 
> can easily examine the documentation for each to learn what each is 
> for.  I don't see any ambiguity that would lead to a misunderstanding here.

Let's see. And keep in mind that I was looking for "repaint the whole 
shebang" here.

repaint(ints, or Rectangle)

Adds the specified region to the dirty region list if the component is 
showing. The component will be repainted after all of the currently 
pending events have been dispatched.

-- Looks promising, but I'm looking for something simpler than figuring 
out some rectangle and then telling it to repaint that. Can't I just 
tell it to repaint everything?

revalidate()

Supports deferred automatic layout.

Calls invalidate and then [technical details]

This method will automatically be called on this component when a 
property value changes such that size, location, or internal layout of 
this component has been affected.

-- My JList's internal layout may have changed, since the cell renderer 
may be producing different-sized cells from before, but my set methods 
don't actually change the cell renderer itself, only its behavior, so 
this won't get called automatically without my doing something. Perhaps 
I should call it, so that my JList subclass calls it automatically in 
these circumstances? Another promising sign is that this is a zero-arg 
method.

update(Graphics g)

Calls paint.

-- Calls paint. Called update. Issue: takes a parameter again, this time 
a Graphics.


Perhaps now it's apparent why it's not clear from these whether, in this 
particular case, I should use repaint itself or use one of these other 
methods that are involved in getting the component to display itself 
correctly after something has been updated.

>> Provisionally, I'm using "repaint(getBounds())"; why there isn't a 
>> no-args repaint-the-whole-thing method will probably remain an 
>> enduring mystery long after my app has matured, had its heyday, and 
>> become obsolete...
> 
> The only mystery is how you missed it:
> http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/awt/Component.html#repaint()

See above, though I take it you agree that repaint(getBounds()) is the 
best method.

It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()" with a doc comment 
of "Repaints this component." for these kinds of cases. "Adds a 
rectangle to the dirty rectangle list" suggests something that is mainly 
intended for a) subclasses that have custom-painting code and are 
implementing a container or something similar and b) delegation from 
higher-level update-notification methods, perhaps update or revalidate. 
If this is not actually the case, as you appear to be implying, then the 
docs are indeed less than clear -- not on what repaint() DOES, but on 
who should be using it rather than using something else, perhaps at a 
higher level of abstraction.

(I take it a JList doesn't need revalidating even if the cell size may 
have changed?)

Knute Johnson wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
>> forbids the giving of a straight answer.
> 
> Well forgive me but if you want to repaint() something repaint() it.

The question was whether it's better to repaint() it directly or by 
calling a method at a higher level of abstraction that in turn calls 
repaint().

> So you are changing some data in your ListModel and it isn't being 
> reflected in your JList?

No. I'm changing a subclass-specific setting that affects presentation 
of the data, and the change is visible to the cell renderer but not, of 
course, to the pre-existing JList code.

>> (Also, is there a way to get the NetBeans GUI editor to recognize new 
>> component classes? Or, perhaps better, to simply bypass it and code 
>> the UI manually, but still get the FrameView saving and restoring of 
>> window state? And is the list definitely only going to call on the 
>> cell renderer to paint the visible cells at any given time? I would 
>> prefer this to be able to scale well with large lists, potentially 
>> 10,000 items or more, with the ListModel storing say 10,000 Integers 
>> or other such handles rather than larger objects that may be retrieved 
>> from disk or a DB on demand.)

Nobody has yet answered any of this.

Knute Johnson wrote:
> If you had looked at the docs you would have seen that the no-arg 
> repaint() belongs to Component.

I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I be 
poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.

> So tell us, are you updating your ListModel on the EDT?

I'm not updating it at all yet; I haven't gotten this class finished 
yet. Testing begins tomorrow, and yes, I fully intend to only update 
things on the EDT. :P

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:35:50 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
>>> forbids the giving of a straight answer.
>>
>> Forgive us if we suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code 
>> among questioners that forbids the inspection of the relevant 
>> documentation before asking a question.
> 
> Suspect what you will, but I did indeed examine the JComponent API docs, 
> and there were three public methods associated with repainting -- not 
> counting that repaint() had two overloads.
> 
> I may have been somewhat biased by what I was specifically searching 
> for, namely a no-argument method for "repaint the whole component". It 
> looks like maybe that is simply lacking.
> 
>> Either you never bothered to even read the documentation, or there's 
>> something more to your question than simply "what's the API-approved 
>> to force a repaint?"  Either way, your question isn't a well-formed one.
> 
> Anything that I say is well-formed, and I am not in the mood to be 
> publicly insulted by you or anyone else here. I came here asking for 
> advice in good faith and I don't appreciate being treated in such a manner.
> 
>> If I understand your follow-up correctly, you simply have some sort of 
>> custom component that needs to be redrawn when internal state changes 
>> that would be reflected visually.  Assuming that's the correct 
>> interpretation, then the documentation does in fact provide all of the 
>> necessary information you need.
> 
> Perhaps it does, but it is less than clear, for whatever reason. 
> Probably because the API docs are organized around a 
> what-this-thingamajig-does scheme, while the tutorial, though organized 
> around a how-to-do-X scheme, rather glosses over repainting of 
> components, other than to make it clear that to paint custom stuff 
> (rather than just at custom times) you override paintComponent.
> 
>> If there's something about the documentation that is confusing you, 
>> there's no shame in being specific about that and asking for help with 
>> it.
> 
> That's more or less what I did, except that I simply asked directly for 
> the answer to the question that I had, instead of for clarification of a 
> particular bit of the docs.
> 
>> If you have read the documentation and need some help, then say so and 
>> be specific about what kind of help you need.
> 
> Fine. From now on, when I have a highly specific question like "what is 
> the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself?", instead of just 
> asking "what is the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself?", 
> I will do as you advise here and say "I've read the documentation, but 
> still have a question: what is the best way to force a JComponent to 
> repaint itself?" -- satisfied?
> 
>> If you simply ask a question that the documentation does in fact
>>  answer, the most obvious explanation is that you haven't bothered
>> to look at the documentation at all.
> 
> Sometimes the most obvious explanation is wrong. Regardless, what the 
> explanation is is not relevant. The question I asked was about 
> JComponent painting, not about what the most likely explanation was for 
> why I asked the question. If you'd please just focus on the actual 
> content of a post asking a question, and refrain from speculating about 
> why the poster might have asked it or other unimportant things like that 
> that have no bearing on things, I think people might appreciate that. 
> People post questions here to get them answered, not to get sidetracked 
> into unrelated topics to satisfy your curiosity as to peoples' motives 
> in asking questions or for any similar such reason.
> 
> It's best to just take peoples' questions at face value, and give them a 
> simple, correct answer that they can apply immediately. I don't know 
> about you, but when I have a question, I'm generally interested in 
> getting an answer as quickly as possible, and one that can be applied 
> immediately. Therefore I've already read all the obviously-relevant 
> documentation, since if it has the answer in a clear and unambiguous 
> form that will get me moving much quicker than waiting for someone to 
> reply on a Usenet group. If that doesn't suffice, then I ask a question 
> here, and at that point I'm not going to be pleased if instead of the 
> one iteration of post-reply that it SHOULD take for me to get an answer 
> back, it ends up taking two or three because people want to satisfy 
> their idle curiosity as to why I'm asking the question, and of course if 
> they simply answered it straight away, I might go away and not answer 
> their questions! So they withhold my answer until they have satisfied 
> their curiosity -- wasting my time and everyone's bandwidth with matters 
> that are tangential, at best, to the purpose of this newsgroup.
> 
> Please don't do that any more. I find it annoying. If I ask "how to do 
> X", please just tell me, in simple terms, how to do X. If you think the 
> documentation should have answered it for me, well, apparently it 
> didn't. If you want, you can certainly point to the bit of the 
> documentation that you think unambiguously answers the question and ask 
> me why I didn't apparently one of find it relevant enough to look at or 
> find it clear and certain enough to use, AT THE SAME TIME as supplying 
> the actual answer. Then, since I'll have the answer I need to continue 
> with my work without delay, I am likely to be able to find some time 
> later to satisfy your curiosity a bit, and therefore I am likely to 
> answer, and to be much less annoyed and irritated when I do.
> 
> Thank you.

You can get as mad as you want but people are really trying to help you. 
  And having been around here for a while, when someone asks "What 
method do I use to repaint() a JComponent," we get sort of suspicious 
because repainting is rarely the solution to anything.

And whether you believe it or not there IS a no-arg repaint() method. 
It belongs to JComponent.

So, this is my last attempt to help you.  Answer the questions or not, 
your choice.

1) Are you updating your ListModel on the EDT?

2) Are you doing long running tasks on the EDT (in a listener for example)?

3) Are you adding or removing components to your JList?

-- 

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute2008/

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
      ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

Knute Johnson wrote:
> You can get as mad as you want but people are really trying to help you.

That's not what bothers me. It's that they are often remarkably 
unsuccessful at SUCCEEDING that bothers me, and in fairly silly ways. 
For example, if you know, for sure, the exact answer to the question, 
and you don't include it in your response, well, that's just plain silly!

>  And having been around here for a while, when someone asks "What method 
> do I use to repaint() a JComponent," we get sort of suspicious because 
> repainting is rarely the solution to anything.

That's for the programmer to decide, not you. I know my code far better 
than you do, and I don't see why you need to know jack about it in order 
to provide a simple, straight answer for a simple question. If I had a 
design-related conundrum I would ask a design-related question. When I 
have a "how to do X very specific thing with Y" type of question, and 
ask it, I want an equally specific answer, not some kind of inquest 
based on some suspicion, based on very little evidence, that there's 
some sort of problem with my design. I ask for what I want, but you 
reply not with what I want but with your own mixture of suspicions, idle 
questions, and sometimes outright insults.

My guess (and now I'm the one speculating about you with limited 
information, instead of just giving a straightforward answer -- let's 
see how you like it) is that it stems from a widespread belief among the 
people here that nobody who asks a question here has the faintest clue 
what the hell they're doing, and all need guidance as if from a teacher 
or something instead of simple technical-support like responses that 
directly answer specific questions.

Maybe many of the people who post here ARE that clueless. But it's 
insulting to the rest of us when you treat us as if we ALL are, and it 
obstructs just getting to the point as quickly as possible and then 
moving on.

> And whether you believe it or not there IS a no-arg repaint() method. It 
> belongs to JComponent.

JComponent has no no-arg repaint() method save, according to another 
post to this thread, one it inherits from java.awt.Component. Of course, 
since I was not looking at the AWT docs, only JList and JComponent, and 
expecting anything generally useful for Swing components to be in the 
latter in particular, I didn't know about it earlier.

> 1) Are you updating your ListModel on the EDT?
> 
> 2) Are you doing long running tasks on the EDT (in a listener for example)?
> 
> 3) Are you adding or removing components to your JList?

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my previous post to this 
thread. I have not finished the component and begun testing it yet. When 
I do, I will of course observe normal Swing thread-safety procedures and 
avoid doing long tasks on the EDT. (I am concerned about the need to 
update the ListModel on the EDT though; it may be necessary eventually 
to add large numbers of items, perhaps even tens of thousands, all in 
one big bolus, which would tie up the EDT. Perhaps adding smaller 
batches at a time, letting the EDT get some work done elsewhere, then 
adding more, etc.; but then the list control is likely to keep 
repainting itself until the job's done. Argh.)

The repaint issue has nothing to do with any observed problem with the 
class. It occurred while still coding the first draft of the class, as I 
wrote some methods to set some properties specific to my class that will 
affect the cell renderer's rendering. Of course, this means that the 
list should repaint itself, and at the same time since none of JList's 
own setters have been invoked, the repaint won't have been triggered as 
a side effect of anything in my setters, and so has to be scheduled 
explicitly. (And I STILL don't know if I should revalidate in cases 
where the cells may have changed size. Maybe it's time a better guide 
specifically for component subclassers got written somewhere.)

(Convinced that I actually, honestly DO know what the heck I'm doing 
now? :-P)

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:27:01 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> Let's see. And keep in mind that I was looking for "repaint the whole  
> shebang" here.
>
> repaint(ints, or Rectangle)
>
> Adds the specified region to the dirty region list if the component is  
> showing. The component will be repainted after all of the currently  
> pending events have been dispatched.
>
> -- Looks promising,

Yes, it does.  In fact, it looks just like what you asked for.

> but I'm looking for something simpler than figuring out some rectangle  
> and then telling it to repaint that. Can't I just tell it to repaint  
> everything?

Yes, you can.  Even ignoring the fact that if you don't know what  
rectangle describes the area in which you're drawing, you've got serious  
problems, there is in fact a "no parameter" overload of the method (see  
below).

> revalidate()
>
> Supports deferred automatic layout.
>
> Calls invalidate and then [technical details]
>
> This method will automatically be called on this component when a  
> property value changes such that size, location, or internal layout of  
> this component has been affected.

As the description says, this method is for things that affect layout.   
Either the control itself has moved or changed size, or something in it  
needs to go through layout again.  This obviously has nothing to do with  
simply forcing a repaint.

> -- My JList's internal layout may have changed, since the cell renderer  
> may be producing different-sized cells from before, but my set methods  
> don't actually change the cell renderer itself, only its behavior, so  
> this won't get called automatically without my doing something. Perhaps  
> I should call it, so that my JList subclass calls it automatically in  
> these circumstances? Another promising sign is that this is a zero-arg  
> method.

Would you rather have a method that has no arguments, or one that does  
what you want?

> update(Graphics g)
>
> Calls paint.

And when you looked at the description of the paint() method, what did you  
find?

> -- Calls paint. Called update. Issue: takes a parameter again, this time  
> a Graphics.

Honestly, I don't know what your deal about the parameter is.  The fact  
is, a method that does exactly what you want exists, but you need to be  
doing a better job looking at what the methods _do_ and stop worrying so  
much about what signature they have.  Once you find a method that has  
_functionality_ that you want, then you can look for an overload with a  
signature you prefer.

> Perhaps now it's apparent why it's not clear from these whether, in this  
> particular case, I should use repaint itself or use one of these other  
> methods that are involved in getting the component to display itself  
> correctly after something has been updated.

No, it's not apparent to me at all why it's not clear to you.  Of those  
three methods, two are obviously not what you want, and of one of those  
two, the documentation related to it even _explicitly_ says to not call it  
directly and instead use the repaint() method for what you're trying to do.

>>> Provisionally, I'm using "repaint(getBounds())"; why there isn't a  
>>> no-args repaint-the-whole-thing method will probably remain an  
>>> enduring mystery long after my app has matured, had its heyday, and  
>>> become obsolete...
>>  The only mystery is how you missed it:
>> http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/awt/Component.html#repaint()
>
> See above, though I take it you agree that repaint(getBounds()) is the  
> best method.

You keep saying you want a method without arguments.  Did you bother to  
look at the description of the method at the URL I provided?  You even  
quoted the URL, so really, you have no excuse for not having seen it.

> It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()" with a doc comment  
> of "Repaints this component." for these kinds of cases.

I don't know how much clearer I can be.  I gave you the URL for the exact  
method you're looking for.  If leading you by the nose to the exact method  
you want doesn't work, then I suppose that could explain why you're having  
so much trouble with the documentation.  After all, it's true...using the  
documentation does require _some_ involvement on the part of the reader.   
It's not going to write your code for you.

Pete

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:30:57 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> If you had looked at the docs you would have seen that the no-arg  
>> repaint() belongs to Component.
>
> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I be  
> poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.

Because Swing is built on top of AWT.

JComponent inherits Component.  You can't understand JComponent without  
understanding Component.

>> So tell us, are you updating your ListModel on the EDT?
>
> I'm not updating it at all yet; I haven't gotten this class finished  
> yet. Testing begins tomorrow, and yes, I fully intend to only update  
> things on the EDT. :P

"Fully intend to" is silly.  There's no excuse for not doing it that way  
 from the outset.  It's _harder_ to write the code wrong and then fix it  
than it is to just do it right in the first place.

Pete

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:12:33 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> Suspect what you will, but I did indeed examine the JComponent API docs,  
> and there were three public methods associated with repainting -- not  
> counting that repaint() had two overloads.

I count FIVE overloads of repaint().

Java is object-oriented programming.  You have to look at the  
super-classes as well as the immediate class to know what's in the  
immediate class.  The immediate class inherits all of the stuff that's in  
the super-classes.

> [...]
> Anything that I say is well-formed, and I am not in the mood to be  
> publicly insulted by you or anyone else here. I came here asking for  
> advice in good faith and I don't appreciate being treated in such a  
> manner.

Well, unfortunately for you, you're not in a position to dictate how your  
question will be answered.  People get tired of responding to questions  
that are easily answered simply by looking at the documentation.  When you  
make your question look like one of those, you're not going to get the  
answer you want, assuming you get one at all.

> [...]
>> If there's something about the documentation that is confusing you,  
>> there's no shame in being specific about that and asking for help with  
>> it.
>
> That's more or less what I did, except that I simply asked directly for  
> the answer to the question that I had, instead of for clarification of a  
> particular bit of the docs.

Or, in other words, what I said you should do is MUCH more than what you  
actually did.  There's nothing at all in your original post to suggest  
that you had bothered to look at anything in the documentation.

>> If you have read the documentation and need some help, then say so and  
>> be specific about what kind of help you need.
>
> Fine. From now on, when I have a highly specific question like "what is  
> the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself?", instead of just  
> asking "what is the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself?",  
> I will do as you advise here and say "I've read the documentation, but  
> still have a question: what is the best way to force a JComponent to  
> repaint itself?" -- satisfied?

It's not a question of whether I'm satisfied.  It's a question of whether  
you have any interest in asking questions in a way that is likely to get  
them answered.

As for your proposed alternative question format, no...that's not going to  
get your question answered with any more enthusiasm.  If you have a  
question about what you've read in the documentation, you need to be  
specific about that.  Simply saying "I've read the documentation and I'd  
like you to tell me the answer to this question that was answered by the  
documentation" doesn't encourage people to be motivated to help you.

>> If you simply ask a question that the documentation does in fact
>>  answer, the most obvious explanation is that you haven't bothered
>> to look at the documentation at all.
>
> Sometimes the most obvious explanation is wrong.

True, and irrelevant.  The problem of people asking RTFM questions is far  
too common for you to expect anyone to give you the benefit of the doubt.

> [...]
> People post questions here to get them answered, not to get sidetracked  
> into unrelated topics to satisfy your curiosity as to peoples' motives  
> in asking questions or for any similar such reason.

This isn't about satisfying curiosity.  It's about trying to help you  
understand why people aren't going to answer RTFM questions.

> It's best to just take peoples' questions at face value, and give them a  
> simple, correct answer that they can apply immediately. I don't know  
> about you, but when I have a question, I'm generally interested in  
> getting an answer as quickly as possible, and one that can be applied  
> immediately. [...]

The very fastest way for me to get the answer to any question would be to  
just ask the expert.  But, that can be a waste of the expert's time, and  
as well I will learn more about the subject if I do some research myself.   
As an added bonus, I become more practiced at using the documentation  
myself, further helping me to be not so dependent on the expert in the  
future.

Personally, I don't like wasting other people's time.  Now, you may not be  
so concerned about that.  But the fact is, other people don't like YOU  
wasting their time.  When it looks like that's what you're doing, they  
tend to ignore you rather than answering the question you want answered.

Again, I've no interest here in making you feel bad about your choices.   
I'm simply trying to offer advice that will help you understand better  
techniques for getting your questions answered.

Maybe if what I'm saying isn't making sense to you, you just need to wait  
10 or 15 years.  Hopefully your perspective and attitudes will have  
changed by then, and this discussion will have more meaning to you.

Pete

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:56:48 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> [...]
> Maybe many of the people who post here ARE that clueless. But it's  
> insulting to the rest of us when you treat us as if we ALL are, and it  
> obstructs just getting to the point as quickly as possible and then  
> moving on.

What's your definition of "clueless"?  Because my definition, it includes  
the kinds of people that _quote_ the answer they are looking for, while at  
the same time claiming that what they are looking for does not exist.

Maybe your definition is different.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:27:01 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> repaint(ints, or Rectangle)
>>
>> Adds the specified region to the dirty region list if the component is 
>> showing. The component will be repainted after all of the currently 
>> pending events have been dispatched.
>>
>> -- Looks promising,
> 
> Yes, it does.  In fact, it looks just like what you asked for.

Not quite, since "what I asked for" was a simple, no-arg "repaint-me".

>> but I'm looking for something simpler than figuring out some rectangle 
>> and then telling it to repaint that. Can't I just tell it to repaint 
>> everything?
> 
> Yes, you can.  Even ignoring the fact that if you don't know what 
> rectangle describes the area in which you're drawing, you've got serious 
> problems

Could you PLEASE knock it off with the insults and frequent insinuations 
that I don't know what the hell I'm doing? Trust me -- I do. I just 
didn't want to have to MESS with digging up the component's bounds and 
then passing them around if I didn't have to.

Stop second-guessing my motives or reasons for doing things!! That is 
not why I came to this newsgroup.

> there is in fact a "no parameter" overload of the method (see 
> below).

In an AWT class, apparently, where I of course didn't go looking for it 
since I'm working with Swing.

>> revalidate()
>>
>> Supports deferred automatic layout.
>>
>> Calls invalidate and then [technical details]
>>
>> This method will automatically be called on this component when a 
>> property value changes such that size, location, or internal layout of 
>> this component has been affected.
> 
> As the description says, this method is for things that affect layout.

Internal layout. My cell renderer may have changed size under these 
circumstances. That would seem to change the internal layout of the 
rendered JList.

> Either the control itself has moved or changed size, or something in it 
> needs to go through layout again.  This obviously has nothing to do with 
> simply forcing a repaint.

It "obviously" no such thing. It clearly has to do with circumstances 
that also clearly require a repaint.

What may be obvious to people that have been digging around in the guts 
of Swing for ages may be less so to people that are knowledgeable about 
Java in general, knowledgeable about more commonplace uses of Swing than 
custom component creation, and have access to the API docs, but haven't 
done much actual custom-component implementation before.

Must you subject everyone who has not done much custom-component 
implementation before and then asks about a related topic to public, 
implied insults? It seems rather pointless for you to do so.

> Would you rather have a method that has no arguments, or one that does 
> what you want?

I would rather have one that has both traits, of course, since what I'm 
looking for is simply a "repaint me completely" method.

>> update(Graphics g)
>>
>> Calls paint.
> 
> And when you looked at the description of the paint() method, what did 
> you find?

Nothing. I didn't look at the description of the paint method, because I 
was not interested in the implementation details of the JComponent 
class, only its interface to subclasses and its public interface.

>> -- Calls paint. Called update. Issue: takes a parameter again, this 
>> time a Graphics.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know what your deal about the parameter is.  The fact 
> is, a method that does exactly what you want exists, but you need to be 
> doing a better job looking at what the methods _do_

I don't need to be doing a better job of anything, and I'll thank you to 
quit publicly insuinuating or outright asserting otherwise!

I read all of the descriptions of what the methods do. It was clear that 
repaint() could be employed to do what I wanted. What was NOT clear was 
whether, for this case, that was the BEST way or if there was a 
higher-abstraction-level method that was better-suited instead. 
Unfortunately, getting an actual honest, friendly answer to that 
question has proven to be unexpectedly difficult, though certainly not 
for lack of trying on my part.

> Once you find a method that has 
> _functionality_ that you want, then you can look for an overload with a 
> signature you prefer.

I did that, and saw none in JComponent's method list. So I looked for 
methods with other names that might call one of those two repaints.

>> Perhaps now it's apparent why it's not clear from these whether, in 
>> this particular case, I should use repaint itself or use one of these 
>> other methods that are involved in getting the component to display 
>> itself correctly after something has been updated.
> 
> No, it's not apparent to me at all why it's not clear to you.

Fine. It doesn't matter. I don't need you to understand why something 
isn't clear to me or why I'm asking a particular question, just so long 
as you're willing to ANSWER that question, as straightforwardly as 
possible, and with none of the attitude or curmudgeonliness that most of 
your replies veritably REEK of.

If you'd prefer not to answer a question, for some particular reason, 
you could always not post any kind of response to it at all. One thing I 
will certainly not tolerate, however, is any sort of response that 
implies, in front of a worldwide audience no less, that you think I'm in 
some way incompetent. Stop doing that!

> Of those three methods, two are obviously not what you want

They are not "obviously" not what I want, not based on a quick reading 
of their Javadocs. Perhaps to someone with a lot of experience working 
with Swing's internals, but not to someone who hasn't previously needed 
to directly tell a component to repaint itself and is only now checking 
the most obviously-relevant docs.

Since I didn't see a no-arg repaint() listed next to the two with 
arguments, I looked for other methods that might represent a higher 
level of abstraction for managing repainting than specifying particular 
subsets to repaint. I don't think that I was in any way, shape, or form 
wrong for doing so, and I resent your repeatedly and publicly 
insinuating otherwise. Stop doing so.

> and of one of those two, the documentation related to it even
>  _explicitly_ says to not call it directly and instead use the repaint()
>  method for what you're trying to do.

That may be true in the copy of the documentation you looked at, but it 
is not in mine. Don't assume that everyone is reading the same copy!

But why assume? I stated in an earlier post what my copy of the docs 
said for those methods. To reiterate and elaborate, they said:

-- method #1 --

Supports deferred automatic layout.

Calls invalidate and then adds this component's validateRoot to a list 
of components that need to be validated. Validation will occur after all 
currently pending events have been dispatched. In other words after this 
method is called, the first validateRoot (if any) found when walking up 
the containment hierarchy of this component will be validated. By 
default, JRootPane, JScrollPane, and JTextField return true from 
isValidateRoot.

This method will automatically be called on this component when a 
property value changes such that size, location, or internal layout of 
this component has been affected. This automatic updating differs from 
the AWT because programs generally no longer need to invoke validate to 
get the contents of the GUI to update.

-- method #2 --

Calls paint. Doesn't clear the background but see ComponentUI.update, 
which is called by paintComponent.

-- end --

The above are the full description blocks, quoted verbatim, from my copy 
of the docs (Java™ Platform Standard Ed. 6 DRAFT rc-b104, so pretty up 
to date I think, for what it's worth) -- no mention of calling repaint 
instead in either block. See for yourself.

It's bad enough that you frequently and inexplicably insult me, even 
though I've never done you any harm or been mean to you at all. It's 
worse when you do so based on completely faulty premises, as occurred in 
this particular instances. Please stop doing that. I did not ask anyone 
here for their opinions on my competence or any other such opinions that 
they might hold. I asked, instead, what the best method was for 
repainting a component. A simple, straightforward question. So why the 
heck have you turned it into an inquisition? It's like I asked whether 
or not the Sun goes around the Earth during the goddamn Spanish 
Inquisition! I thought humanity had outgrown that kind of behavior five 
hundred goddamn years ago! Sheesh!

>> See above, though I take it you agree that repaint(getBounds()) is the 
>> best method.
> 
> You keep saying you want a method without arguments.  Did you bother to 
> look at the description of the method at the URL I provided?

You pointed to an AWT method for some reason. I was looking for a Swing 
method, specifically a JComponent method. There were two repaint methods 
in JComponent. Why would I go looking somewhere else entirely for a third?

> really, you have no excuse

This is exactly the kind of nasty, insulting, counter-productive, and 
off-the-topic pointlessness that I have asked you repeatedly to dispense 
with. Can we not focus on only what's relevant here? (Your personal 
opinion of me is emphatically NOT relevant to ANYTHING here. By now, I'm 
well aware of it, so the only reason I can think of for your repeating 
it is that you want to ensure it reaches the widest possible audience, 
which I emphatically do NOT want, so STOP IT. Grrr.)

>> It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()" with a doc 
>> comment of "Repaints this component." for these kinds of cases.
> 
> I don't know how much clearer I can be.  I gave you the URL for the 
> exact method you're looking for.

(The insulting and off-topic twaddle from the end of your post has been 
deleted unread. Please don't waste my time with that sort of crap again.)

In a place where I didn't look, and where I had no reason to look, since 
it's in a completely different section of the API documentation. Perhaps 
if it had been listed right next to the other two repaint methods? But 
no, it can't possibly be the case that the docs are GENUINELY not 100% 
perfect in structure and content, can it? Oh, no, if anyone has a 
question that the docs do sorta-obscurely answer, then that person is 
automatically a complete idiot and the only reasonable response to their 
question is to announce this, loudly and publicly! :-P

No, of course not. The only reasonable response to their question is to 
answer it, maybe also mention where in the docs the answer IS found, and 
leave your personal opinion of the person who asked the question 
completely out of it. Those sorts of opinions should be kept to 
yourself. It accomplishes nothing useful to publicly broadcast it, let 
alone to do so frequently and repetitiously, and it does annoy people 
and may even provoke a flamewar.

Fortunately for you, I'm not the type to stoop to that level and open up 
with both barrels. Next time you behave this way when someone asks a 
question in good faith, you may not be so fortunate, so watch it.

And while we're off-topic:
1. Is there a way to edit quoted text in Thunderbird to reflow it
    after trimming it that doesn't cause it to get mangled OR
    require jumping through hoops to make the edited quoted text
    all stay blue?
2. Why does selecting something in Firefox and hitting control-C
    seem to copy the selected text to the clipboard only some of
    the time? This is a repeated nuisance when excerpting from
    the javadocs for threads like this one.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:30:57 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I 
>> be poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.
> 
> Because Swing is built on top of AWT.
> 
> JComponent inherits Component.  You can't understand JComponent without 
> understanding Component.

The same mistake you've made several times before. You assume that I 
seek to thoroughly understand JComponent. I don't. I seek to use it in a 
particular way at this particular time.

You're not teaching school. You're answering specific questions posed in 
a technical newsgroup. The object of the game is for the guy asking the 
question to get a precise and specific answer in the shortest time 
possible, not for you to turn them on to the wonders of learning and 
ensure that they are prepared to pass the end-of-term exam.

There is no end-of-term exam. There is only whether or not, at the end 
of the day, they have gotten their work done and have not fallen behind 
any schedule that might apply. To whatever extent you waste their time 
with irrelevancies and to-you-fascinating side diversions such as 
learning the implementation and internals of a Java class in depth, you 
are doing them a disservice.

Please just answer the question forthrightly, with perhaps a pointer to 
any docs you found relevant that the question's asker apparently missed 
or found unclear, and leave it at that, or else ignore the question 
entirely.

If I want to thoroughly understand the internals of something from the 
standard library I have the source and I'll go there before I ask you. 
If I want to be insulted and have my motives questioned, I'll look up 
psychologists in the yellow pages. They charge money but they also don't 
blab their speculations and beliefs about their patients in a public 
forum. :-P

(If I ever want to be insulted and have my motives questioned IN PUBLIC, 
I'll run for public office. And start seeing a psychologist with a 
self-evaluation-prompted suspected diagnosis of masochism. :-P)

>> I'm not updating it at all yet; I haven't gotten this class finished 
>> yet. Testing begins tomorrow, and yes, I fully intend to only update 
>> things on the EDT. :P
> 
> "Fully intend to" is silly.  There's no excuse for not doing it that way 
> from the outset.

There you go again. I now suspect that you're intentionally twisting and 
misinterpreting things purely for the purpose of insulting me.

If you'd bother to actually read my post IN ITS ENTIRETY, you'd know 
that I haven't written any code that USES the new class at all yet. In 
particular, nothing yet actually calls the thing with an actual 
ListModel or does anything else to an instance either on or off the EDT. 
I stated that I intend to only access these things on the EDT once I 
have code that access them at all. You purposely selectively quoted and 
twisted that to imply that I had non-working code that updates stuff off 
the EDT that I plan to change tomorrow, which is emphatically NOT the case.

Stop this nonsense at once. I am no longer interested in anything you 
have to say, and I have finally gotten answers to most of my questions, 
so please do not post to this thread again.

> It's _harder_ to write the code wrong and then fix it 
> than it is to just do it right in the first place.

I fully intend to do it right in the first place. The code you claim I 
wrote wrong I have in fact not yet written at all, and I said as much in 
my earlier post. You even quoted that bit, above: "I'm not updating it 
at all yet".

Now, since it's become apparent that now your sole purpose in posting to 
this thread is to insult me (whatever it might have been earlier) and 
try to provoke a flamewar, and it should now be becoming quite apparent 
to you that I refuse to oblige by losing my cool, perhaps you can let 
this drop and go insult some OTHER newcomer to this newsgroup? :-P

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:50:50 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:27:01 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> repaint(ints, or Rectangle)
>>>
>>> Adds the specified region to the dirty region list if the component is  
>>> showing. The component will be repainted after all of the currently  
>>> pending events have been dispatched.
>>>
>>> -- Looks promising,
>>  Yes, it does.  In fact, it looks just like what you asked for.
>
> Not quite, since "what I asked for" was a simple, no-arg "repaint-me".

Had you actually looked at all five overloads for repaint(), you would  
have found the one you wanted.

> [...]
>>> update(Graphics g)
>>>
>>> Calls paint.
>>  And when you looked at the description of the paint() method, what did  
>> you find?
>
> Nothing. I didn't look at the description of the paint method, because I  
> was not interested in the implementation details of the JComponent  
> class, only its interface to subclasses and its public interface.

Well, I hope you've learned from that mistake.

The next time you are reading the documentation for a method and it says  
that it basically just calls some other method, now you know that you need  
to go read the documentation for that other method.  Otherwise, you still  
don't know what the first method actually does.

> [...]
> If you'd prefer not to answer a question, for some particular reason,  
> you could always not post any kind of response to it at all. One thing I  
> will certainly not tolerate, however, is any sort of response that  
> implies, in front of a worldwide audience no less, that you think I'm in  
> some way incompetent. Stop doing that!

You will not tolerate?  Do you have any choice in the matter?  As far as  
whether _my_ posts imply that you are incompetent, they do no such thing.   
I do clearly _state_ that you have made mistakes, but even competent  
people do that sometimes.  But, I think your own posts aren't helping your  
case much.

> [...]
>> and of one of those two, the documentation related to it even
>>  _explicitly_ says to not call it directly and instead use the repaint()
>>  method for what you're trying to do.
>
> That may be true in the copy of the documentation you looked at, but it  
> is not in mine. Don't assume that everyone is reading the same copy!

I'm reading the same documentation you are.  It's just that I took the  
time to actually follow the links that fully elaborate on the topics at  
hand.

 From the description of JComponent.paint() (the method called by update()):

     Invoked by Swing to draw components. Applications should not
     invoke paint directly, but should instead use the repaint
     method to schedule the component for redrawing.

If you'd read that paragraph, didn't understand, and had posted a question  
asking for clarification, that would have been one thing.  But you  
obviously never got as far as even reading that paragraph.

> [...]
> It's bad enough that you frequently and inexplicably insult me, even  
> though I've never done you any harm or been mean to you at all.

I'm sorry if you feel insulted.  It's not my intent.  If you do, it's  
simply a side-effect of me pointing out your mistakes.  I see no reason  
for you to feel insulted by your own mistakes.  After all, mistakes can be  
very good teaching tools.  But you do have to be willing to accept them  
and learn from them.

So far, you've failed miserably on that point.

> It's worse when you do so based on completely faulty premises, as  
> occurred in this particular instances.

You've yet to show that I've made any false assumptions.  It turns out  
that you did in fact not read all of the documentation that you should  
have in order to research your question, and that the answer to your  
question is in fact stated clearly in the documenation.

> [...]
>>> See above, though I take it you agree that repaint(getBounds()) is the
>>> best method.
>>  You keep saying you want a method without arguments.  Did you bother  
>> to look at the description of the method at the URL I provided?
>
> You pointed to an AWT method for some reason.

I pointed you to the AWT method BECAUSE IT IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION.

Duh.

> I was looking for a Swing method, specifically a JComponent method.  
> There were two repaint methods in JComponent. Why would I go looking  
> somewhere else entirely for a third?

Because, as I already pointed out, Java is an OOP language, and that means  
that every class inherits everything in its base classes, and so you  
cannot understand a given class without also understanding its base  
classes.

Swing is not completely independent of AWT.  It is built on top of AWT and  
you will, if you continue your Java education, find yourself repeatedly  
using things from AWT, even though you're nominally using Swing.

>> really, you have no excuse
>
> This is exactly the kind of nasty, insulting, counter-productive, and  
> off-the-topic pointlessness that I have asked you repeatedly to dispense  
> with. Can we not focus on only what's relevant here?

Forgive me if I find it relevant that I _answered_ your question, and yet  
you refused to bother looking at the answer because you made your own  
premature, uninformed and ill-advised judgment that my answer wasn't what  
you were looking for.

When you've already been given the answer, why would anyone do anything  
more than keep pointing out that you've been given the answer?

> [...]
> (The insulting and off-topic twaddle from the end of your post has been  
> deleted unread. Please don't waste my time with that sort of crap again.)

Not that your characterization of my post is accurate but, at worst,  
whatever I write is only a waste of your time if you read it.  No one's  
forcing you to.  If you find that you've wasted your time, you have no one  
to blame but yourself.

> In a place where I didn't look,

True.

> and where I had no reason to look,

FALSE!  Until you understand your mistake, you will keep making it.  You  
think I'm sitting here trying to insult you when in fact I'm trying to  
point out the mistake so that you can LEARN from it.

> since it's in a completely different section of the API documentation.  
> Perhaps if it had been listed right next to the other two repaint  
> methods?

Define "right next to".  There certainly are links to the Component  
repaint() overloads from the JComponent documentation page.  I'd call that  
"right next to".

> But no, it can't possibly be the case that the docs are GENUINELY not  
> 100% perfect in structure and content, can it?

No one's saying that the docs are perfect.  But in this particular case,  
they did not fail to provide the information you wanted.  You simply  
failed to look.

The Java doc format is consistent.  Every class has a description, then a  
summary of all its members, followed by simple lists of each member of  
each base class, and finally the elaborated descriptions of each member.   
All you had to do was scroll down to the base classes for JComponent,  
looking at the members listed there, and you would have found the other  
repaint() methods.

If you are inexperienced and did not understand that, that's not a problem  
at all as long as you're willing to own up to that.  But when you  
repeatedly assert that you've made no mistake, that the method you're  
looking for doesn't exist, even when someone has specifically pointed you  
to it, then we come to...

> Oh, no, if anyone has a question that the docs do sorta-obscurely  
> answer, then that person is automatically a complete idiot and the only  
> reasonable response to their question is to announce this, loudly and  
> publicly! :-P

I have announced nothing of the sort.  You are doing a fine job yourself  
on that matter.

Pete

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:01:41 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

>>  JComponent inherits Component.  You can't understand JComponent  
>> without understanding Component.
>
> The same mistake you've made several times before. You assume that I  
> seek to thoroughly understand JComponent. I don't. I seek to use it in a  
> particular way at this particular time.

I never suggested you intend to "thoroughly understand" the class, never  
mind had made that mistake repeatedly.  But you do _need_ to at least  
understand the parts you're using.  My statement stands valid as is.

> You're not teaching school.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "school".  But if you think  
this newsgroup is a place for you to just ask whatever questions pop into  
your head, without any expectation that a) you should have to perform due  
diligence to find the answer yourself first, and b) you might receive  
feedback regarding _how_ you asked your question rather than the actual  
answer to the question itself, you are in for a huge disappointment.

Here's the deal: people answer your questions at their own pleasure.   
We're not here to serve your whims, nor to be ordered about by you.  We do  
as we please, and your ability to get a question answered will depend  
heavily on your willingness to adhere to community standards and  
expectations.

> You're answering specific questions posed in a technical newsgroup. The  
> object of the game is for the guy asking the question to get a precise  
> and specific answer in the shortest time possible, not for you to turn  
> them on to the wonders of learning and ensure that they are prepared to  
> pass the end-of-term exam.

You're simply mistaken about that.  When the opportunity to help teach a  
person to fish comes up, many of us will choose to do that, rather than to  
just hand out fish.  This isn't a game, and any of the regulars here have  
a long-term view of the situation.  Meaning, if we can somehow help you  
help yourself, then that's more efficient in the long run and is a  
worthwhile effort.

More importantly though, I will point out once again: you do not have the  
privilege of dictating how your question is answered.  The best you can do  
is simply ignore answers you don't like.  Throwing a tantrum just because  
you aren't happy with the answers you get isn't going to have the effect  
you seem to hope for.

> [...]
> Please just answer the question forthrightly, with perhaps a pointer to  
> any docs you found relevant that the question's asker apparently missed  
> or found unclear, and leave it at that, or else ignore the question  
> entirely.

This, coming from the person who refused to look at the pointer that was  
in fact provided to him.

> [...]
>>> I'm not updating it at all yet; I haven't gotten this class finished  
>>> yet. Testing begins tomorrow, and yes, I fully intend to only update  
>>> things on the EDT. :P
>>  "Fully intend to" is silly.  There's no excuse for not doing it that  
>> way from the outset.
>
> There you go again. I now suspect that you're intentionally twisting and  
> misinterpreting things purely for the purpose of insulting me.

Your suspicion is unfounded.  If I misunderstood you, it's only because  
most programmers aren't in the habit of describing code that's been  
written as not actually doing something until it's been executed in the  
target environment.

For example, what does this code do:

     for (int i = 0; i < 5; i++) { }

You might be tempted to say "it iterates the variable i, executing the  
empty block for values of i of 0 through 4".  Well, maybe you wouldn't.   
But I would and so would pretty much everyone else I know.

But by your way of speaking, that code doesn't do anything!  It hasn't  
been run yet, and I only "fully intend" for it to iterate the variable and  
execute the empty block with the values of 0 through 4.

> [...]
> Stop this nonsense at once. I am no longer interested in anything you  
> have to say, and I have finally gotten answers to most of my questions,  
> so please do not post to this thread again.

Again, I will do as I please.  Having you tell me NOT to do things just  
makes me want to them all the more.

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:12:33 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
> 
>> Suspect what you will, but I did indeed examine the JComponent API 
>> docs, and there were three public methods associated with repainting 
>> -- not counting that repaint() had two overloads.
> 
> I count FIVE overloads of repaint().

In the classes themselves, yes. In the JComponent method listing in the 
API documentation, there are two. It is the JComponent method listing in 
the API documentation that I was consulting, for obvious reasons.

> Java is object-oriented programming.  You have to look at

Rest of pedantic and rather insulting paragraph deleted. Have I not made 
it abundantly clear by now that your condescending and insulting 
attitude is unwelcome and you should not reply to me with such an 
attitude again? Either reply neutrally, or reply in a friendly manner, 
or do not reply at all. (How you reply to somebody other than me is, of 
course, between you and them.)

>> Anything that I say is well-formed, and I am not in the mood to be 
>> publicly insulted by you or anyone else here. I came here asking for 
>> advice in good faith and I don't appreciate being treated in such a 
>> manner.
> 
> Well, unfortunately for you, you're not in a position to dictate

Rest of hostility deleted.

What the hell is your problem? Why are you being hostile toward me, when 
I had never done anything malicious to you, or even inadvertently 
slighted you?

Actually, don't answer that. It doesn't matter. Your opinion of me is 
not of any interest to me. Only the answer to whatever question I asked. 
When you have a nasty opinion of someone, for whatever reason, and it's 
not a politician or some other important public figure, you should keep 
it to yourself -- didn't your mother teach you any manners?

Please just answer each question or ignore it, WITHOUT slipping in any 
snide remarks, off-topic asides, hostility, or other pointlessness that 
can serve no useful purpose but does risk starting a fight.

> People get tired of responding to questions that are easily answered
> simply by looking at the documentation.

The problem is when people form opinions of PEOPLE, based on their 
OPINION of what is "easily" answered "simply" by looking at the 
documentation, and then BROADCAST that opinion for some stupid reason 
instead of just keeping it to themselves!

> When you make your question look like one of those, you're not going
> to get the answer you want

I didn't make my question look like anything in particular. I simply 
posted a good-faith question that had a simple and straightforward 
answer, but not one that *I* found obvious from perusing the portions of 
the docs that were immediately relevant.

If you will not answer properly questions that YOU THINK, in YOUR HUMBLE 
OPINION, are "stupid", then you should not post any follow-up to those 
questions at all. You should NOT post a bunch of insults, or pry into 
other peoples' business, or tell the world that you refuse to answer 
"stupid" questions like you just did above. You should simply ignore it 
if you are unwilling to answer it properly, with an actual, honest answer.

What about that is so goddamn difficult for you to understand? It's 
Manners 101, for God's sake. Everyone is supposed to learn basic manners 
by the time their age is two digits long. Unfortunately, the internet 
appears to be populated with a lot of people who either somehow missed 
out on that particular part of their grade-school curriculum or seem to 
think they needn't bother when they're online because "it's all just 
numbers and code, not real people" (yes, I've actually heard this lame 
excuse, and on more than one occasion, in various places for various 
online misbehaviors) or because they simply feel they can get away with 
it because whoever they're treating poorly isn't physically present to 
punch them in the goddamn nose.

To which my answer is, "Would you be this rude over the goddamn phone? 
No? Then you shouldn't be over the goddamn Internet, either!"

>> That's more or less what I did, except that I simply asked directly 
>> for the answer to the question that I had, instead of for 
>> clarification of a particular bit of the docs.
> 
> Or, in other words, what I said you should do is MUCH more than what you 
> actually did.

What you said I should do was completely irrelevant to the question that 
I asked. (To be relevant, it would have to have taken the form of a 
snippet of Java code.)

> There's nothing at all in your original post to suggest 
> that you had bothered to look at anything in the documentation.

How utterly fascinating. And irrelevant. I asked a question about 
something other than the documentation. Your role is then to answer it 
or ignore it, whichever you please, not to answer something completely 
unrelated to the question actually asked, ask questions of your own, or 
(especially) start badmouthing people in public for no good reason.

If you insist that every question contain some remark asserting that the 
poster did read some documentation, then I will happily oblige and add 
boilerplate to that effect to every question that I ask here in the 
future, silly though that seems to me.

And to top it off, you are WRONG. There IS something in my original post 
to suggest that I looked at the documentation. There are three method 
names. Where did you think I got my three candidates? Out of a hat? Of 
course not -- I got them by browsing the list of JComponent methods in 
the JComponent API docs. If I saw a question asking what method was best 
to address a particular issue at a particular level of abstraction, and 
that listed several that the poster thought might be applicable, my 
first guess as to how they came by the list would be "by perusing the 
class's API docs, specifically the method listing", if it occurred to me 
to even wonder how they constructed the list at all. It probably 
wouldn't, seeing as it's not relevant; I'd probably just answer the 
question, given that I knew the answer or found the docs easier to 
interpret than they presumably did.

I think a bit of IETF wisdom is applicable to human interaction online 
every bit as much as it is to machine interaction online: "you should 
very strictly follow the standard in what you send, but be liberal in 
what you'll accept".

The former, applied to humans, means mind your manners; the latter means 
try to remain civil and don't reject peoples' good-faith questions with 
nasty responses analogous to error messages just because YOU think 
there's something they should have done differently.

I follow that particular bit of advice. It is becoming quite apparent 
that you not only do not, but seem to explicitly and willfully REFUSE to 
do so out of sheer bloody-mindedness. I'd plonk you, but I have to wait 
for this thread to die down first so that I can respond to any more 
insulting nonsense you post to it and thereby reduce the risk of anyone 
coming away from this thread with the mistaken impression that there's 
any truth to what you've said about me. :-P

>> Fine. From now on, when I have a highly specific question like "what 
>> is the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself?", instead of 
>> just asking "what is the best way to force a JComponent to repaint 
>> itself?", I will do as you advise here and say "I've read the 
>> documentation, but still have a question: what is the best way to 
>> force a JComponent to repaint itself?" -- satisfied?
> 
> It's not a question of whether I'm satisfied.

It sure seems like it, particularly when you threaten, above, to respond 
in a way that someone "won't like" to any question that you find 
unsatisfactory according to fairly vague criteria. Criteria that you 
don't state up-front before attacking people, I might add, and that 
furthermore can very easily be innocently violated by someone that is 
acting in good faith.

Shame on you!

> It's a question of 
> whether you have any interest in asking questions in a way that is 
> likely to get them answered.

At this point, I couldn't possibly care less what ways of asking 
questions will be most likely to get you to answer them. Indeed, I 
couldn't care less if you never answered another question of mine again.

In fact, based on how you chose to answer this last one, I'd PREFER it 
if you never answered another question of mine again!

Oh, and another unsolicited manners lesson for you: it is considered 
rude when someone presumes to speak for everyone else in a large forum 
of any sort. As you do above, when you say "likely to get them answered" 
rather than "likely to get me to answer them", even though the only 
person whose policy on answering questions that you can either control 
or speak about with authority is your own personal one. Others will 
answer whatever questions they please, including ones that you wouldn't 
answer (or would answer in a nasty and useless way instead of properly), 
whether you like it or not.

> As for your proposed alternative question format, no...that's not going 
> to get your question answered with any more enthusiasm.

Fine, then please killfile me. Obviously you won't like my questions, 
for whatever reason and despite the fact that there's nothing at all 
wrong with them in any objective sense, and obviously you don't like me, 
so do us both a favor and simply ignore me from now on. (That means 
don't bother replying to this post, either.)

> If you have a question about what you've read in the documentation,
> you need to be specific about that.

I had a question about which method was best to do a particular job at a 
particular level of abstraction, and I was specific about that. If you 
interpreted it differently, that's down to YOU. If that interpretation 
led you to conclude that there was a problem, then it is YOUR problem. 
It is YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION. Your subjective opinions should have no 
bearing on any technical information you post here, nor should it have 
any influence on how polite you are to someone here -- you should either 
be polite or say nothing at all. If you can't stand someone and can't 
stomach making the effort to reply to them civilly then exercise the 
latter option, and if you feel a knee-jerk impulse to lash out every 
time you see a post by some person, you should killfile them. That is 
Usenet etiquette 101.

> Simply saying "I've read the documentation and I'd 
> like you to tell me the answer to this question that was answered by the 
> documentation" doesn't encourage people to be motivated to help you.

But of course I never suggested that I'd say that. I said that I'd say 
"I've read the documentation, but still have a question: <something 
specific about doing something in Java>".

To this, the proper response (other than to write none at all) is a 
straightforward answer to the question. If, for some reason, it 
irrelevantly occurs to you to wonder why I didn't find the answer in the 
documentation, then you may ask that AS WELL AS answering my question, 
POLITELY, in particular this means WITHOUT implying that I'm some sort 
of idiot or clueless newb. Perhaps, if you ask nicely, I'll even answer 
your question, asked irrelevantly out of idle curiosity. Of course, it's 
possible that for whatever reason you won't like the answer. If that 
occurs, don't lash out at me; you asked, you got an answer to exactly 
the question you asked.

If you are not willing to answer politely, or you are not willing to 
answer without the answer being 100% irrelevant, then please do not post 
any reply at all.

>>> If you simply ask a question that the documentation does in fact
>>>  answer, the most obvious explanation is that you haven't bothered
>>> to look at the documentation at all.
>>
>> Sometimes the most obvious explanation is wrong.
> 
> True, and irrelevant.

No, it is not irrelevant. The question of whether or not I read the 
documentation, or why I didn't find some particular thing there (despite 
looking), is what's irrelevant here. You don't need to know in order to 
answer. You just need to know the answer to the question you were 
actually posed.

Why are you so interested in who's read what documentation and why they 
didn't find such-and-such in it, anyway? It has no bearing on what 
someone asked, in typical cases, and you aren't to my knowledge involved 
in any effort to actually improve the documentation quality, either.

> The problem of people asking RTFM questions is far too common

There is no problem here except for people like you being impolite 
without cause, answering with purely off-topic and useless responses, 
and generally being all-around jerks!

> for you to expect anyone to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I expect you to give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt or else NOT REPLY 
TO THEM! I expect you to do so because I expect you, as I expect all 
human beings, to BE POLITE, ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC! What part of that is 
so difficult for you to understand?

>> People post questions here to get them answered, not to get 
>> sidetracked into unrelated topics to satisfy your curiosity as to 
>> peoples' motives in asking questions or for any similar such reason.
> 
> This isn't about satisfying curiosity.

Then why did you ask me questions whose answers you did not need in 
order to correctly and concisely and politely answer MY question?

> It's about trying to help you understand why people aren't going
> to answer RTFM questions.

Now you're being arrogant, rude, and condescending again.

Arrogant: presuming to speak for everyone in the world yet again.
Rude: I know bloody well what the "F" in "RTFM" stands for, among other 
things.
Condescending: you are again assuming the role of patient teacher trying 
to make backwards student understand something in time for the exam.

Let me make myself perfectly clear:

I DO NOT >>>CARE<<< WHY >>>YOU<<< AREN'T GOING TO ANSWER PARTICULAR 
QUESTIONS.

Just answer them or not, as you see fit, but either answer them politely 
and accurately or don't post any reply at all!

It's really that simple!

If someone wants to know what questions YOU are going to answer, they 
will ask you what questions YOU are going to answer. If they do not ask 
you what questions YOU are going to answer, don't tell them unsolicited, 
especially not if you have some kind of inherited inability to do so 
politely.

And if someone asks you what questions "people" are going to answer, the 
only correct response will obviously be "whatever questions they, 
individually and separately, FEEL like answering".

>> It's best to just take peoples' questions at face value, and give them 
>> a simple, correct answer that they can apply immediately. I don't know 
>> about you, but when I have a question, I'm generally interested in 
>> getting an answer as quickly as possible, and one that can be applied 
>> immediately. [...]
> 
> The very fastest way for me to get the answer to any question would be 
> to just ask the expert.

Funny -- I find it's faster to try to find the needed information in the 
docs before posting something and then waiting for ages for an 
as-likely-or-not snarky-and-unhelpful response from some jerk who thinks 
his modem and sorta-anonymity gives him carte blance to tell all and 
sundry exactly what he thinks of them and why. :-P

> But, that can be a waste of the expert's time, 
> and as well I will learn more about the subject if I do some research 
> myself.

And when you do so, but the answer is not apparent from the docs that 
were most obviously relevant (such as, say, the long list of JComponent 
methods)?

You ask, right?

Yet you fault me for doing the same in the same circumstances.

Shame on you!
> Personally, I don't like wasting other people's time.

Then please don't waste mine with any more useless, flamey, or otherwise 
off-topic responses. In the future when you see a question by me please 
either give it a straight answer with no extra added bonus "baggage" or 
ignore it completely. And if you find me completely intolerable for any 
reason please say nothing and just killfile me. Thank you.

> But the fact is, other people don't like YOU wasting their time.

If you think answering a particular question is a waste of your time, 
then the most time-efficient thing you can possibly do is just mark it 
read (or even killfile the thread) and move on, without posting any 
reply at all.

The only reason to post snarky, useless, and insulting replies is if you 
WANT to waste time, and your preferred form of time-wasting is to pick a 
fight and then slug it out with someone.

If that's your cup of tea, there are newsgroups expressly for that sort 
of purpose; comp.lang.java.programmer, however, is not one of them.

> When it looks like that's what you're doing, 
> they tend to ignore you rather than answering the question you want 
> answered.

Fine. It's when you do neither that I get bothered.

> Again, I've no interest here in making you feel bad about your choices.

Then why keep harassing and berating me? In public, at that?

> I'm simply trying to offer advice that will help you understand better 
> techniques for getting your questions answered.

I didn't ask for advice on "better techniques for getting my questions 
answered" by you. (And you can only speak with authority on what YOU 
like in a question. You seem to be conflating your own opinion of what 
questions YOU think are worth YOUR while to answer with some peculiar 
idea of some sort of universally-held opinion on the matter, as if there 
even were such a thing. I don't know why.

The gratuitously insulting paragraph where you imply that I'm some sort 
of a child has been completely ignored, save to make this remark calling 
you on your own childish behavior in including such pointless flamebait 
in your post.

And since there's nothing left, I guess this is goodbye.

Unless, of course, you for some reason think there's anything left to 
say here that you haven't already repeated several times. :-P

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:30:57 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I 
>>> be poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.
>>
>> Because Swing is built on top of AWT.
>>
>> JComponent inherits Component.  You can't understand JComponent 
>> without understanding Component.
> 
> The same mistake you've made several times before. You assume that I 
> seek to thoroughly understand JComponent. I don't. I seek to use it in a 
> particular way at this particular time.
> 
> You're not teaching school. You're answering specific questions posed in 
> a technical newsgroup. The object of the game is for the guy asking the 
> question to get a precise and specific answer in the shortest time 
> possible, not for you to turn them on to the wonders of learning and 
> ensure that they are prepared to pass the end-of-term exam.

I strongly suspect the resident experts are actually
trying to prevent short term wrong design decisions,
inferred from your question, turning into long term,
had to fix pain.

They're actually trying to help you.

    BugBear

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:50:50 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Not quite, since "what I asked for" was a simple, no-arg "repaint-me".
> 
> Had you actually looked at all five overloads for repaint(), you would 
> have found the one you wanted.

I told you to stop posting attack posts, and to killfile me if you had 
to in order to achieve that objective.

I'll repeat it again:

Stop posting attack posts. If you cannot resist replying to everything I 
write with nasty nonsense, killfile me.

Where I looked, the JComponent method listing, I saw two overloads, not 
five. I acted reasonably based on what I saw in the obvious place to 
look. That I did not additionally look in some non-obvious place is of 
no importance; furthermore it is no skin off your nose.

>> Nothing. I didn't look at the description of the paint method, because 
>> I was not interested in the implementation details of the JComponent 
>> class, only its interface to subclasses and its public interface.
> 
> Well, I hope you've learned from that mistake.

I did not make any mistake. I do not make mistakes. Stop lying about me 
in public.

The whole purpose of API documentation and object-oriented design, of 
course, is to make users of a class not need to concern themselves with 
the implementation details. Therefore, not concerning myself with the 
implementation details when using object-oriented classes is not a 
mistake; it is expected and normal behavior.

> The next time you are reading the documentation for a method and it says 
> that it basically just calls some other method, now you know that you 
> need to go read the documentation for that other method.

I don't share your opinion on what I do or do not need to do. I don't 
care what your opinion is regarding what I do or do not need to do. I 
doubt anyone else reading this newsgroup cares what your opinion is, 
either. Why are you wasting time and bandwidth by broadcasting your 
irrelevant, small-minded, and boring opinion to the world? If you want 
your own personal soapbox from which to broadcast your own personal 
opinions, blogger, livejournal, and several other web sites provide free 
blogging space where you can opine away without wasting anyone's time 
that isn't specifically interested in hearing your opinions. (Of course, 
if you badmouth random ordinary peopl on your blog, it may come back to 
haunt you in the form of the site getting yanked by the provider, or 
even legal action, so you'd do so at your own risk!)

> Otherwise, you still don't know what the first method actually does.

That means that the docs are poorly written. I do not need to do 
anything. The documentation writers need to better document that method. 
Each public method's own javadoc should state what that method does, 
without reference to the implementation; it may add supplementary 
information regarding the implementation but it should never say ONLY 
implementation-dependent things.

>> If you'd prefer not to answer a question, for some particular reason, 
>> you could always not post any kind of response to it at all. One thing 
>> I will certainly not tolerate, however, is any sort of response that 
>> implies, in front of a worldwide audience no less, that you think I'm 
>> in some way incompetent. Stop doing that!
> 
> You will not tolerate?

You heard me. If I ever want your opinion of me I'll explicitly ask you 
for it -- BY PRIVATE E-MAIL. This is a newsgroup for the discussion of 
Java programming, not your own private pulpit from which to preach on 
any random topic that pops into your head. Kindly remember that fact in 
the future.

> Do you have any choice in the matter?

I don't take kindly to being threatened. If you don't like me, the 
proper behavior is to killfile me, not to publicly badmouth me nor to 
threaten to do so. This is not alt.flame. Please do not treat it as if 
it were.

Another paragraph of insulting nonsense had come next, but I don't see 
any reason to include it here. Suffice it to say that I have not made 
any mistake, except, apparently, in your HUMBLE opinion, which a polite 
person would have kept to himself.

>> That may be true in the copy of the documentation you looked at, but 
>> it is not in mine. Don't assume that everyone is reading the same copy!
> 
> I'm reading the same documentation you are.

Obviously not, as I have just demonstrated that the thing you said was 
in your javadoc for one of those methods was not in the description text 
for either of them in my copy of the javadoc.

> It's just that I took the time to actually follow the links

Are you now saying that you LIED when you said that the javadocs for one 
of those two methods stated to use repaint instead? Because that IS what 
you said.

>  From the description of JComponent.paint()

That is not either of the two methods whose javadocs are at issue.

So, you DID lie.

I am definitely going to plonk you now, just as soon as this thread has 
died down. It is now obvious that you are morally bankrupt and that 
nothing that you write in response to any of my posts can be expected to 
be at all useful to me.

>     Invoked by Swing to draw components. Applications should not
>     invoke paint directly

Invoking update() is, of course, not invoking paint() directly, and I 
was, as I'd already stated, coding a custom JList descendant rather than 
an application that was merely USING a JList, so this would not have 
been relevant ANYWAY.

> If you'd read that paragraph, didn't understand, and had posted a 
> question asking for clarification, that would have been one thing.  But 
> you obviously never got as far as even reading that paragraph.

No, I didn't, for reasons that I already explained. The javadoc for 
update should have said all that it needed to say. If it did not, and 
apparently in your opinion it did not, then that is a problem with the 
documentation, not a problem with me.

And in neither case is it at ALL relevant to the question that I 
originally asked!

>> It's bad enough that you frequently and inexplicably insult me, even 
>> though I've never done you any harm or been mean to you at all.
> 
> I'm sorry if you feel insulted.  It's not my intent.

I now know that that is a lie, from your behavior in a couple of other 
recent posts, so please don't bother with empty platitudes like this 
again. It wastes bandwidth.

(The remainder of that paragraph went on to quite deliberately insult me 
several more times, including by erroneously accusing me of having made 
mistakes. I have not.)

> So far, you've failed miserably

In your ever-so-humble opinion, which I never asked you for and which, 
if you'd not apparently been raised in a goddamn BARN, you would have 
known to keep to yourself!

>> It's worse when you do so based on completely faulty premises, as 
>> occurred in this particular instances.
> 
> You've yet to show that I've made any false assumptions.

Well, apparently they weren't merely false assumptions after all -- they 
were outright lies.

But you said that the javadoc for one of two specific methods stated 
something that they did not. I charitably attributed this to your 
version of the docs differing from mine, and your falsely assuming that 
my version contained something if your version did. And then, on the 
basis of that false assumption, you berated me for some supposed stupidity.

Now I know that what really happened was much worse -- worse for you, 
that is. What actually happened was that you said that the javadocs for 
one of two specific methods stated something that they didn't, period; 
in your copy, AS WELL AS in mine, that something appears only in the 
javadocs for a third method, not in either of the two methods for which 
you claimed one of their javadocs mentioned it.

In other words, you didn't make a false assumption about my version; you 
simply lied baldly about something being in a place where it wasn't!

And then, on the basis of that outright fabrication, you berated me.

I have now demonstrated that you are being intentionally hostile and 
dishonest. Clearly your only purpose here is to try to provoke a 
full-blown flamewar. Were I a lesser man, you might well have actually 
succeeded.

> It turns out that you did in fact not read all of the documentation
> that you should have

In your humble opinion. The only documentation I can reasonably be 
expected to read is what's obviously of immediate relevance to the 
matter at hand. Particularly for a class with as large a list of methods 
as JComponent.

My question was "which method to do X"; I quickly determined that JList 
didn't deal with such matters directly but delegated to JComponent; so 
the JComponent method list was the place to look. So I looked at the 
JComponent method list, picked the likeliest candidates, clicked on 
each, and thus looked at the descriptions of each. That I did not read 
the whole thing cover-to-cover or read any OTHER classes' docs just 
proves that I am not a man of infinite, saintly patience and possessed 
of unlimited time. Hardly a crime.

> in order to research your question, and that the answer to your 
> question is in fact stated clearly in the documenation.

No, it is not. I submit that the documentation does not, to my knowledge 
based on any of this, state clearly what method should be used to 
repaint an entire component, from inside a subclass, when coding a 
library rather than an application.

Also, I would consider that for it to truly state something CLEARLY, it 
must state it where people looking for that information are very likely 
to FIND it, as well as state it unambiguously. Why would I look at a 
method that wasn't one of the three I'd come up with, or look at the 
superclass when it looked like JComponent had its own repaint methods 
that, perhaps, superseded the AWT ones?

It doesn't even matter. It's not up to YOU to decide what I should or 
should not have done. You can believe that I should have read every byte 
of the entire api docs tree, for all that it matters -- it's completely 
irrelevant! I asked a simple question with a straightforward answer. The 
only correct ways to respond are a) with that answer or b) not at all. 
There is nothing further to discuss.

>> You pointed to an AWT method for some reason.
> 
> I pointed you to the AWT method BECAUSE IT IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION.

And I am not disputing that. I am disputing your implicit claim that I 
should have looked there instead of at the JComponent repaint method 
cluster.

And the only reason I am doing so, given that where I should have looked 
is completely irrelevant to my original question, is that since you have 
publicly maligned me in a baseless manner, I must now point out, equally 
publicly and in the same place, why you are wrong and the reason why 
your maligning of me is, indeed, baseless.

>> I was looking for a Swing method, specifically a JComponent method. 
>> There were two repaint methods in JComponent. Why would I go looking 
>> somewhere else entirely for a third?
> 
> Because, as I already pointed out, Java is an OOP language

Ridiculous. Where does it stop? All the way up at Object? I was asking a 
question about a Swing JComponent. I think stopping at JComponent and 
not looking into the IMPLEMENTATION DETAIL that JComponent is 
implemented using AWT base classes is perfectly goddamn reasonable.

Oh, you disagree? So what? Go ahead and disagree. You have every right 
to. It's your opinion. Where you cross the line into being a rude little 
prig and a waste of time is when you decide, on the basis of A MERE 
PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS, to start badmouthing other people in public, 
to post time-wasting useless unhelpful responses to questions, and to 
generally act like a jerk in public!

I think maybe I need to drill it in directly and emphatically.

YOU ARE NOT GOD.

YOU do not decide what is or is not a good question, period; only what 
is or is not a question that you, personally, feel like answering.

YOU are not the official arbiter of how someone should use the 
documentation.

YOU are not the sole person in charge of deciding what questions are 
acceptable on this newsgroup.

YOU are nobody!

Got it?

Step down off your high horse and start behaving like a plain old 
citizen, the equal of everyone else, whose opinion counts for exactly as 
much as anyone else's (usually nothing) and who should be held (and 
should hold himself!) to the exact same standards of polite and civil 
behavior that almost everyone's mother teaches them.

> you cannot understand a given class without also understanding its base 
> classes.

Once again, you make the mistake of thinking that I'm trying to 
understand JComponent in its entirety, implementation details and all, 
rather than trying to simply use a JList in a particular instance.

Either that, or you make the more severe mistake of thinking that I am 
SUPPOSED TO, and that I am not permitted to proceed with my work until I 
DO, understand all of that. Along with the even WORSE mistake of 
thinking that someone has put YOU, personally, in charge of deciding 
these things and granting or denying such permissions!

Here's some news for you: nobody has done anything of the sort. Nobody 
died and made you God. Your opinions on such matters are exactly that -- 
YOUR OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS. And as such, they are worth exactly what 
such opinions are usually worth. And like it or not, I will treat them 
as such.

> and you will, if you continue your Java education

This condescending nonsense can serve no useful purpose. It's just 
gratuitous flamebait. Go away and leave me alone.

I have a fairly solid Java education, thank you very much. I just don't 
have much experience subclassing JList! So sue me!

>>> really, you have no excuse
>>
>> This is exactly the kind of nasty, insulting, counter-productive, and 
>> off-the-topic pointlessness that I have asked you repeatedly to 
>> dispense with. Can we not focus on only what's relevant here?
> 
> Forgive me if I find it relevant that I _answered_ your question

That's not what's at issue here! I asked can we not focus on ONLY what's 
relevant here. You are constantly mixing your personal beliefs and 
opinions, including (especially unfortunately) your personal negative 
opinions of other people, into things instead of leaving such things 
where they belong: locked safe and sound inside your own cranium. NOBODY 
CARES what you think of me. NOBODY CARES what you, personally, think 
people should have read or done. NOBODY CARES! Get it? Nobody cares 
about anything except the answer to the question-du-jour! So please, 
either oblige them or don't post anything at all.

> and yet you refused to bother looking at the answer

Wrong. I have already used the answer in my code. What I refused to do 
is submit to your claims regarding my competence, and what I should or 
should not have done. And that's because I STILL DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU 
ABOUT THOSE THINGS. Got it?

> because you made your own premature, uninformed and ill-advised
> judgment that my answer wasn't what you were looking for.

I did nothing of the sort, you liar. I explained why I didn't find it in 
the documentation. Apparently even that is not enough to meet your 
exacting standards for how other people should behave. Well, tough. 
You'll find that lots of people don't meet your exacting standards, and 
you will have to learn to accept that and get along with such people or 
face the consequences.

That's not a threat, by the way; that's just a warning. Being as boorish 
as you have been will get you nowhere in life except, perhaps, someday 
into a world of hurt when you insult the wrong six-foot-three, 
two-hundred-pound person or get fired from your job or something for 
being a jackass whenever someone doesn't live up to your oh-so-perfect 
standards.

> When you've already been given the answer, why would anyone do anything 
> more than keep pointing out that you've been given the answer?

I have no idea. Why do you? Yet here you are, repeatedly posting just to 
sling various insults at me, and when I reply to patiently explain to 
you (and to whoever else is reading this -- if it were just you, I'd 
probably just let you stew in your own ignorance) that you're wrong 
about me (and why), instead of just accepting that, or agreeing to 
disagree, and moving on, you post ANOTHER post full of pointless insults 
and vitriole.

Please stop doing so, and please treat my question ("why do you?") as 
rhetorical and simply not post to this thread any more. You've said your 
piece, and I've said mine, and the only reason for you to continue now 
is if you feel you have some childish need to get the last word or 
something equally silly.

>> (The insulting and off-topic twaddle from the end of your post has 
>> been deleted unread. Please don't waste my time with that sort of crap 
>> again.)
> 
> Not that your characterization of my post is accurate

You might not like it, but it was, indeed, accurate. It had nothing to 
do with the original topic (to wit, "Best way to force a JComponent to 
repaint itself") or Java and it was you once again expressing your 
by-now-well-known nasty and small-minded opinion of me, formed hastily 
on the basis of nothing but a smattering of usenet posts and therefore 
about as trustworthy as a politician's big shit-eating grin on 
meet-the-press day during election season.

Why you even think anyone cares what your opinion of me is ... actually, 
don't bother telling everyone. Nobody cares about THAT, either.

Just drop it. It can do neither of us any good for you to continue.

> but, at worst, whatever I write is only a waste of your time if you
> read it.  No one's forcing you to.

Unfortunately, I have to read all of your posts to this thread now 
because there is a statistically high probability that any such post 
contains some baseless slur or another against my good character that 
will require public correction.

>> and where I had no reason to look,
> 
> FALSE!

No, you're the liar, as we've established previously.

> Until you understand your mistake, you will keep making it.

I.
DID.
NOT.
MAKE.
ANY.
MISTAKE!

I looked exactly where I was supposed to. That not all of the relevant 
methods were grouped together in the documentation indicates a problem 
with the documentation.

Your opinion may be different, but it is just that -- YOUR OPINION, AND 
NO MORE. It has no place in any public inquiry into whether or not I've 
done something wrong. In fact, there should not be any such public 
inquiry. I haven't done anything wrong, and I haven't requested any such 
inquiry myself. Why you seem to think there should be one ... but again, 
let's not go there. It's irrelevant. It's apropos of nothing. This is a 
newsgroup for discussing Java, not for discussing zerg and whether or 
not he's bad, evil, wrong, stupid, or some such. Please get back on 
topic now.

> You think I'm sitting here trying to insult you when in fact I'm
> trying to point out the mistake so that you can LEARN from it.

That's a lie, as established earlier. I made no mistake, except perhaps 
according to your own, ill-founded opinion. I made none in fact. And you 
are not trying to get me to LEARN anything; you are trying to start a 
big fight, and you are becoming increasingly frustrated and angry that I 
won't take the bait, stoop to your level, and start throwing the F word 
around like you have done. That this is your intent is apparent simply 
from the fact that you keep repeating yourself long after I have made it 
clear that I have no interest in learning what you want me to learn, 
which is, in fact, a bunch of YOUR OPINIONS and not really anything to 
do with Java at all.

>> since it's in a completely different section of the API documentation. 
>> Perhaps if it had been listed right next to the other two repaint 
>> methods?
> 
> Define "right next to".

As in, the two were physically adjacent in the web page. The third was 
on another page entirely. There may be a link to there on the JComponent 
page, but if so, it's buried in one of those very dense blocks of 
nothing but links far away from where the two methods were that I did find.

I don't have time to minutely examine every single link in a page the 
size of that one when looking for a specific bit of information and when 
it has (if perhaps falsely) implied that I've already found all that 
page has to offer on the subject.

But why am I explaining myself to you yet again? If I thought that you 
might actually be acting in good faith, and willing to actually LISTEN 
to what I have to say and try to understand my point of view, it would 
make sense for me to do so, but you're clearly only here to HOLD FORTH, 
expressing YOUR opinion; you clearly consider your opinion to have 
supremacy and as a result you are completely uninterested in my point of 
view. That, of course, is why you don't actually bother to read and 
understand most of what I write, but reply anyway.

You've worn out the "benefit of the doubt" in my case.

Shoo! Go away! Be gone with you!

I won't respond to any further posts from you except to deny, for the 
record, that there's any truth to any insults that you've included in 
them. Any more elaborate response is now clearly a waste of time and 
bandwidth and will only serve to encourage you to post yet another long 
diatribe all about how evil zerg is. :-P

> There certainly are links to the Component 
> repaint() overloads from the JComponent documentation page.  I'd call 
> that "right next to".

"On the same page" != "right next to" when a page is that size, of course.

>> But no, it can't possibly be the case that the docs are GENUINELY not 
>> 100% perfect in structure and content, can it?
> 
> No one's saying that the docs are perfect.

You are implying it when you blame ME for something that actually 
resulted from the docs' limitations.

> But in this particular case, they did not fail to provide the
> information you wanted.

In a certain technical sense. They did fail to put it where it would be 
likely to be seen, though, which means they only did half of the job.

Yes, I know, you disagree. I also don't care. Shut up about it, and shut 
up about me. There is nothing further to say on this topic, so please 
don't waste everyone's time.

> You simply failed to look.

Not true. I did look, in the appropriate place, alphabetically between Q 
and S, under R. It simply wasn't there (between Q and S, under R, that is).

> The Java doc format is consistent.

Then it unfortunately might prove to be consistent in its flaws.

> Every class has a description, then a summary of all its members,
> followed by simple lists of each member of each base class, and
> finally the elaborated descriptions of each member.

And it is there, where I was supposed to, that I did indeed look. I 
failed at nothing. I carried out the extent of my responsibility. And I 
don't care that your opinion is otherwise, so don't bother saying so yet 
again.

> All you had to do was scroll down to the base classes for 
> JComponent, looking at the members listed there, and you would have 
> found the other repaint() methods.

But why would I do that, particularly when it's an unpleasantly dense, 
run-together solid block of links? (Someone clearly didn't read any 
style guides about writing for readability or easy skimming/scanning!)

> If you are inexperienced and did not understand that, that's not a 
> problem at all as long as you're willing to own up to that.  But when 
> you repeatedly assert that you've made no mistake, that the method 
> you're looking for doesn't exist, even when someone has specifically 
> pointed you to it, then we come to...

I have not done anything of the sort, you liar. I have only asserted 
that I made no mistake (true) and that the method that I was looking for 
wasn't listed in the obvious place, right beside the others. I never, 
EVER claimed that it didn't even exist. I did, at one time or another, 
indicate that someone ELSE had IMPLIED that it didn't in one or two 
places, but that's a completely different matter. Evidently those 
someone elses were wrong. Hardly my fault.

>> Oh, no, if anyone has a question that the docs do sorta-obscurely 
>> answer, then that person is automatically a complete idiot and the 
>> only reasonable response to their question is to announce this, loudly 
>> and publicly! :-P
> 
> I have announced nothing of the sort.

You have implied it.

Now take your unwelcome and off-topic opinions about me and shove them. 
This is a Java programming newsgroup, not Geraldo and certainly not 
Peter Duniho's Personal Soapbox.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:53:20 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:12:33 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Suspect what you will, but I did indeed examine the JComponent API  
>>> docs, and there were three public methods associated with repainting  
>>> -- not counting that repaint() had two overloads.
>>  I count FIVE overloads of repaint().
>
> In the classes themselves, yes. In the JComponent method listing in the  
> API documentation, there are two. It is the JComponent method listing in  
> the API documentation that I was consulting, for obvious reasons.

And what reasons are those?  Why would you not look at _all_ of the  
methods a class might have, rather than just the ones implemented by  
itself?

>> Java is object-oriented programming.  You have to look at
>
> Rest of pedantic and rather insulting paragraph deleted. Have I not made  
> it abundantly clear by now that your condescending and insulting  
> attitude is unwelcome and you should not reply to me with such an  
> attitude again? Either reply neutrally, or reply in a friendly manner,  
> or do not reply at all.

Again with the imperatives.  I will reply to you in any manner I see fit.

> [...]
> What the hell is your problem? Why are you being hostile toward me, when  
> I had never done anything malicious to you, or even inadvertently  
> slighted you?

Um, let's see.  There's one person in this thread who is cursing, engaging  
in name-calling, and just generally getting their panties in a twist for  
no good reason.

Hint: it's not me.

The idea that you've not done anything to deserve ire from someone else is  
laughable, but calling my posts "hostile" even more so.

It's funny.  Looking back at various threads, you seem to accuse people of  
hostile and other unsavory behavior to you quite often.  And yet, the  
people whom you accuse don't seem to be accused of that behavior by anyone  
else.  The only commonality is _you_.

You will probably think this is just coincidence, or perhaps some form of  
persecution.  But the fact is, you seem to have trouble getting along with  
others, and seem to think that this newsgroup owes you much more than it  
really does.

Good luck with that.

Pete

On 14/08/2008 04:21, zerg allegedly wrote:
> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
> three candidates:
> 
> revalidate()
> repaint()
> update()

The three are not equivalent.

repaint is sometimes used in client context, and sometimes in component
context.

revalidate is/should be for component context only.

update is only for paint context.

revalidate is functionally different from repaint and update.

-.-

If you want the engine to redraw your Component* completely, use
repaint() without arguments. If you want it to redraw a particular
section within its bounds, use the repaint overload that takes bounds
(directly or via a Rectangle).

In either case, if you're calling repaint very often**, you might want
to allow the calls to coalesce by calling one of the repaint overloads
that take a long as their first argument (something like hundred or two
hundred millisecs should be adequate).

If your custom component's layout (bounds, positions within) was
modified, call invalidate() and let the framework do the rest. Don't
call revalidate() at that point. The difference between revalidate() and
invalidate() is validate(), and that should be in client code.

Never call update unless you're in the paint() method chain -- i.e.
doing custom painting -- and even then only exceptionally.

*EVERY javax.swing.JComponent IS A java.awt.Component

**for specific values of "very often"


PS: I AM NOT INSULTING YOU!

-- 
DF.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:01:41 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
> 
>>>  JComponent inherits Component.  You can't understand JComponent 
>>> without understanding Component.
>>
>> The same mistake you've made several times before. You assume that I 
>> seek to thoroughly understand JComponent. I don't. I seek to use it in 
>> a particular way at this particular time.
> 
> I never suggested you intend to "thoroughly understand" the class

You suggested that either I intended to or that I actually MUST do so; 
neither is correct.

> But you do _need_ to at least understand the parts you're using.
> My statement stands valid as is.

No. Nothing that you have said about me "stands valid", at least, not so 
far.

To understand the parts I'm using I went and read the javadocs for the 
two repaint methods that were in the expected place in the alphabetical 
list, the revalidate method, and the update method, exactly as I should 
have.

That your opinion differs is of no importance whatsoever. Your opinions, 
in general, are of no importance whatsoever. Why you persist in 
believing otherwise remains a mystery, given that you've had this 
explained to you repeatedly now.

>> You're not teaching school.
> 
> I suppose that depends on your definition of "school".

It depends on nothing. You're not teaching school here. You're 
participating in an online community of Java programmers. Unfortunately, 
your idea of participation is apparently to be really rude and boorish 
to anyone whose opinions you happen to disagree with.

> But if you think 
> this newsgroup is a place for you to just ask whatever questions pop 
> into your head, without any expectation that you should have to 
> perform due diligence to find the answer yourself first

I don't think anything of the sort and I DID perform due diligence. And 
yes, once again, I have a pretty good guess what your opinion is on that 
matter and yes, once again, I don't give a shit, and neither does anyone 
else in all likelihood.

> you are in for a huge disappointment.

Threats are wasted on me. I don't care if you never answer a question 
from me again. In fact, I'd prefer it if you didn't; I'd dearly love it 
if you'd just killfile me right now. Obviously we mix about as well as 
oil and water, and most of that is down to your abrasive and opinionated 
nature and refusal to keep negative opinions to yourself in polite company.

> Here's the deal: people answer your questions at their own pleasure.

No problem. I'd just like it if they either answered straight, and 
civilly, or said nothing at all, rather than writing any nasty thought 
about me that might be suggested to them by whim!

> We're not here to serve your whims, nor to be ordered about by you.

Fine. The only time I've ordered anybody about rather than said "please" 
was when someone pushed me far enough and I stopped prepending "please" 
before "don't be rude to me" and the like, because it had become clear 
that politeness was wasted on that person.

You being one such person.

The only "whim" I am "ordering" you about is my personal preference NOT 
to be the subject of a lot of off-topic, pointless nonsense. This is a 
Java newsgroup, not a zerg newsgroup. Stop posting about zerg and start 
posting about Java please.

> We do as we please, and your ability to get a question answered will
> depend heavily on your willingness to adhere to community standards
> and expectations.

Hoo boy. It doesn't get much more arrogant than this.

Nobody died and appointed YOU supreme arbiter of community standards! 
Your SOLE authority here is to decide what questions meet YOUR PERSONAL 
standard for answering them, NOT to decide EVERYONE ELSE'S AS WELL. 
Please get that through your thick skull and thereby save us all a lot 
of grief.

In your OPINION my question may not have been up to some standard or 
another. Fine. Ignore it, then. But don't accuse me of acting in bad 
faith, especially in public, and don't waste countless hours and 
megabytes BROADCASTING your stupid little narrow-minded irrelevant 
opinions in a newsgroup where the topic is not "Peter Duniho's opinions" 
but rather "Java programming"!

>> You're answering specific questions posed in a technical newsgroup. 
>> The object of the game is for the guy asking the question to get a 
>> precise and specific answer in the shortest time possible, not for you 
>> to turn them on to the wonders of learning and ensure that they are 
>> prepared to pass the end-of-term exam.
> 
> You're simply mistaken about that.

NO. I AM NOT MISTAKEN.

If your OPINION about what this newsgroup is for differs radically from 
the above, which states what this newsgroup ACTUALLY is for, then 
perhaps you are better off not posting to this newsgroup at all.

Perhaps you actually teach a class in your working hours. It would 
explain a few things. But if so, learn to separate your role at work 
from your role on this newsgroup. They are distinct. Your classroom is 
full of clueless newbies who need guidance and who need to learn a 
course curriculum and not just get specific answers to specific 
questions. This newsgroup is full of knowledgeable Java programmers (and 
probably the occasional clueless newbie) who do not need guidance unless 
they say they do, who do not need to learn a well-rounded curriculum 
unless they say they do, and who do need to get specific answers to 
specific questions.

Take specific questions at face value. Don't read anything else into 
them, like imagined hidden pleas for help understanding some broader 
thing or asking what your personal opinion is on how much digging into 
the docs someone should arse around with before asking elsewhere. If 
someone has such a question here I am sure they will ask it outright. I 
know I will.

> When the opportunity to help teach a person to fish comes up, many
> of us will choose to do that, rather than to just hand out fish.

Not everyone has time to play your little scavenger hunt (or play to 
your ego). Please answer a question directly, in your first reply to its 
thread, if it hasn't already been answered. If you wish, go ahead and 
ALSO point out any research tips or documentation things you think the 
poster might have overlooked -- WITHOUT implying that they are an idiot 
for having overlooked any such and without any other uncivil behavior. 
That way EVERYONE gets their wish, you your stated desire to teach 
someone and the original question asker an answer to their question, 
plus what may or may not be a useful bonus for them.

Well, except that this assumes that you are acting on good faith. All 
the evidence now indicates that your REAL wish is to start fights. Of 
course, what I suggested is too reasonable and too non-fight-starting to 
pass muster with you. (Prove otherwise -- accept it. I dare you! If you 
reject it, I and doubtless many others here will take it as your tacit 
admission that your real wish is, indeed, to start fights, and that 
being reasonable just isn't your bag.)

> This isn't a game

Exactly. Someone asking a question here may be under time pressure. Did 
you ever think of that?

> Meaning, if we can somehow help you help yourself, then that's more
> efficient in the long run and is a worthwhile effort.

That's for me to decide. It's for each individual person to decide what 
is more efficient FOR THEM in terms of getting their particular tasks 
accomplished. It is arrogant in the extreme for you to presume that YOUR 
opinion of what would be most efficient for THEM supersedes THEIR 
opinion of same. Particularly when you do not have direct knowledge of 
their particular situation and context, while they do. Nor is that 
context frankly any of your beeswax; you should just trust them to ask 
where something might be documented/ask where something might be BETTER 
documented/ask for research tips when that's what they feel will be most 
efficient for them and to ask specific questions when THAT's what they 
feel will be most efficient for them.

Second-guessing them instead only serves to insult them, work at 
cross-purposes to them, and delay their getting what they ACTUALLY ASKED 
FOR.

We are not children. We do not need you to play the parent and give us 
"what we need, not what we want". We are adults that can make our own 
choices without any more nannying from arrogant SOBs like yourself. We 
decide what we need AND what we want, not you. If we want to eat food 
high in saturated fat, we will do so and we will not be interested in 
your opinion on the matter. If we want to ride without a helmet, we will 
do so and we will not be interested in your opinion on the matter. If we 
want to load up on sweets and skimp on fruits and vegetables, we will do 
so and we will not be interested in your opinion on the matter. If we 
want to only do the most basic, reasonably quick documentation searching 
before asking a question on Usenet, we will do so and we will not be 
interested in your opinion on the matter. If ever one of us actually IS 
interested in your opinion on any such matter, rest assured that he will 
actually ASK you your opinion on the matter. Until and unless someone 
has done so, consider that it might be seen as unwelcome, ESPECIALLY if 
it is condescendingly offered IN LIEU OF, instead of AS WELL AS, the 
actual thing that was requested!

I think that is all that needs to be said on the matter. I don't think 
there is any point in discussing the matter further; you have made your 
opinion plain and I have done likewise. Killfile me if you must, and 
move on.

> More importantly though, I will point out once again: you do not have 
> the privilege of dictating how your question is answered.

I am doing no such thing. I am reminding you of how you should behave in 
polite society, since you are repeatedly and flagrantly failing to 
behave politely within my notice and your doing so is proving to be a 
bother to me. I am putting you in your place, because you seem to have 
gotten it into your head that you're in charge around here in some way, 
and that your personal opinions somehow constitute "community standards" 
that somehow even override the basic standards of how adults should 
behave towards one another in polite company. I am reminding you that if 
you prefer not to give a straight answer to a question, you can always 
leave that "follow up" button alone instead of telling the world your 
personal opinion of its asker. I am alerting you that your behavior is 
offensive and rude. And last but not least I am reminding you that we 
are adults that don't care to be condescended to, not school-children in 
need of parenting and guidance whether we like it or not. We are grown 
up. We will ask for what we think we need, and what we think we need is 
more important to us than what YOU think we need.

Thank you for considering the above, if consider it you ever actually do.

> The best you can do is simply ignore answers you don't like.

No. The best YOU can do is simply ignore QUESTIONS you don't like. 
(Responding to them to attack whoever posted them is certainly something 
you can do, for shame, but it is certainly not anywhere near the BEST 
thing you can do, nor even a good thing for you to do at all.)

> Throwing a tantrum

I didn't do anything of the sort and I resent this blatant and 
intentional mischaracterization.

>> Please just answer the question forthrightly, with perhaps a pointer 
>> to any docs you found relevant that the question's asker apparently 
>> missed or found unclear, and leave it at that, or else ignore the 
>> question entirely.
> 
> This, coming from the person who refused to look at the pointer that was 
> in fact provided to him.

I'm speaking generally now, in case you hadn't noticed. When someone 
asks a question, in the future, please just answer the question 
forthrightly, with perhaps a pointer to any docs you found relevant that 
the question's asker apparently missed or found unclear, and leave it at 
that, or else ignore the question entirely.

>>>  "Fully intend to" is silly.  There's no excuse for not doing it that 
>>> way from the outset.
>>
>> There you go again. I now suspect that you're intentionally twisting 
>> and misinterpreting things purely for the purpose of insulting me.
> 
> Your suspicion is unfounded.

You have made it increasingly clear, if not by frank admission, that my 
suspicion is indeed true. You are posting to this thread solely to 
insult me in public, and your statement otherwise above is a bald-faced 
lie, one of several I have now caught you in.

You are not acting in good faith at all. This discussion is pointless to 
continue, since you are determined not to be reasonable or to act in 
good faith, and since you have now been blatantly dishonest on several 
occasions as well as ignoring repeated polite requests to keep your 
negative opinions of me to yourself and to comport yourself in a 
civilized and polite manner when out and about in public.

You are pointless. Your posts are pointless. I have no further interest 
in anything that you have to say. Please do not say anything to, about, 
or in a public reply to me again. Thank you.

> If I misunderstood you, it's only because 
> most programmers aren't in the habit of describing code that's been 
> written as not actually doing something until it's been executed in the 
> target environment.

The code in question HAS NOT been written, as I have stated repeatedly. 
Stop lying by implication! It is EXTREMELY rude to be dishonest like that.

I have been developing a JList-derived class. I have not yet written a 
single line of code that actually instantiates one and calls upon it to 
do anything, on any thread. All of the code that I HAVE written will run 
on the EDT unless the caller to the JList-derivative's methods calls one 
on another thread.

When I DO write code that instantiates one and uses it, I plan NOT to 
make that error.

Clear enough now, asshole?

Oh, why do I bother. You have no intention of replying in good faith; 
probably you never did. You don't read what I write, and when you do, 
you intentionally misunderstand it and then attack it. All you're really 
doing, of course, is attacking your own apparent stupidity in 
misunderstanding it, and in public at that, but what do you care? This 
is all just an entertaining game to you. You're a troll, as near as I 
can figure from your steadfast refusal to actually be in the least bit 
reasonable or to recognize the difference between universal FACTS and 
YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS.

> But by your way of speaking, that code doesn't do anything!  It hasn't 
> been run yet, and I only "fully intend" for it to iterate the variable 
> and execute the empty block with the values of 0 through 4.

This is, of course, a complete mischaracterization, and what I have 
heard called a "straw man argument". I never said anything remotely like 
that. I said that code that HADN'T BEEN WRITTEN YET didn't do anything 
YET. A completely different claim.

It IS true that my JList derivative will misbehave if its methods are 
called from off the EDT. So what -- JList itself also will.

>> Stop this nonsense at once. I am no longer interested in anything you 
>> have to say, and I have finally gotten answers to most of my 
>> questions, so please do not post to this thread again.
> 
> Again, I will do as I please.  Having you tell me NOT to do things just 
> makes me want to them all the more.

Your threats and admissions of childish motives do not help your case 
any. Your explicit, repeated, and vehement refusals to abide by EITHER 
a) the rules of polite society OR b) this newsgroup's charter* make you 
look even worse. Stop now, before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole!

* where it says that the topic of this newsgroup is Java programming, 
and zerg's purported evilness is therefore implied to be OFF-topic

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:56:48 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Maybe many of the people who post here ARE that clueless. But it's 
>> insulting to the rest of us when you treat us as if we ALL are, and it 
>> obstructs just getting to the point as quickly as possible and then 
>> moving on.
> 
> What's your definition of "clueless"?  Because my definition, it 
> includes the kinds of people that _quote_ the answer they are looking 
> for, while at the same time claiming that what they are looking for does 
> not exist.
> 
> Maybe your definition is different.

It isn't. However, nobody in this thread has done such a thing (at 
least, not yet). You have claimed otherwise, but your claim was a lie.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:05:31 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> I told you to stop posting attack posts, and to killfile me if you had  
> to in order to achieve that objective.

That you did.  Since I haven't posted any attack posts, there's nothing  
for me to stop.  But even if I had, so what?  I hope you didn't expect  
that I would take orders from you.  That would be a mistake.

> I'll repeat it again:
>
> Stop posting attack posts. If you cannot resist replying to everything I  
> write with nasty nonsense, killfile me.

I'll do as I please.

> Where I looked, the JComponent method listing, I saw two overloads, not  
> five. I acted reasonably based on what I saw in the obvious place to  
> look. That I did not additionally look in some non-obvious place is of  
> no importance; furthermore it is no skin off your nose.

It's of no important, unless of course you want to know how to use the  
Java API documentation.

>>> Nothing. I didn't look at the description of the paint method, because  
>>> I was not interested in the implementation details of the JComponent  
>>> class, only its interface to subclasses and its public interface.
>>  Well, I hope you've learned from that mistake.
>
> I did not make any mistake. I do not make mistakes. Stop lying about me  
> in public.

I haven't lied at all.  As for you not making mistakes, okay...fine.  Tell  
me what word you'd prefer I use to describe your mistakes, and I'll use  
that word instead.

> The whole purpose of API documentation and object-oriented design, of  
> course, is to make users of a class not need to concern themselves with  
> the implementation details. Therefore, not concerning myself with the  
> implementation details when using object-oriented classes is not a  
> mistake; it is expected and normal behavior.

You have a flawed understanding of OOP.

>> The next time you are reading the documentation for a method and it  
>> says that it basically just calls some other method, now you know that  
>> you need to go read the documentation for that other method.
>
> I don't share your opinion on what I do or do not need to do. I don't  
> care what your opinion is regarding what I do or do not need to do. I  
> doubt anyone else reading this newsgroup cares what your opinion is,  
> either. Why are you wasting time and bandwidth by broadcasting your  
> irrelevant, small-minded, and boring opinion to the world?

My purpose is in sharing information that you and others may find useful  
in soliciting answers to questions.  Your purpose, on the other hand,  
seems to be solely aimed at shirking responsibility for your own mistakes  
(sorry...you haven't told me the new word yet), and for making ridiculous  
accusations of hostility.

I know why I'm posting.  Why are you?  What are you contributing?

> [...]
>> Otherwise, you still don't know what the first method actually does.
>
> That means that the docs are poorly written.

I never said the docs were perfect.  But they are good enough that a  
person with good strategies for using them can in fact find the  
information they need.  About 2/3rds of everything I know about Java, I  
learned just by reading the API docs.

> I do not need to do anything. The documentation writers need to better  
> document that method.

Sadly for you, you don't have control over the documentation writers any  
more than you have control over me.  If you want to improve the situation,  
the only person whom you can control is yourself.

Whether the doc writes need to do a better job is irrelevant here.  The  
only thing that is guaranteed to improve your experience is a change in  
your own approach to reading the documentation.

> [...]
>> That may be true in the copy of the documentation you looked at, but
>>> it is not in mine. Don't assume that everyone is reading the same copy!
>>
>>  I'm reading the same documentation you are.
>
> Obviously not, as I have just demonstrated that the thing you said was  
> in your javadoc for one of those methods was not in the description text  
> for either of them in my copy of the javadoc.

It most certainly is.  You just didn't (and still haven't) bothered to  
look at the part where it is.

>> It's just that I took the time to actually follow the links
>
> Are you now saying that you LIED when you said that the javadocs for one  
> of those two methods stated to use repaint instead? Because that IS what  
> you said.

Actually, speaking of lying, it's not.  Here's the actual quote:

     Of those three methods, two are obviously not what you want,
     and of one of those two, the documentation related to it even
     _explicitly_ says to not call it directly and instead use the
     repaint() method for what you're trying to do.

Nowhere in there did I say that the documentation for the method itself  
says that.  I wrote "the documentation related to it".  That is, the part  
that a diligent reader of the documentation would have seen.

>>  From the description of JComponent.paint()
>
> That is not either of the two methods whose javadocs are at issue.
>
> So, you DID lie.

No, but you are doing so now.

> I am definitely going to plonk you now, just as soon as this thread has  
> died down.

Why not just do it now?

> [...random mischaracterization about what I did or did not say  
> deleted...]
>
> I have now demonstrated that you are being intentionally hostile and  
> dishonest. Clearly your only purpose here is to try to provoke a  
> full-blown flamewar. Were I a lesser man, you might well have actually  
> succeeded.

Ego trip much?

> [...]
>>> You pointed to an AWT method for some reason.
>>  I pointed you to the AWT method BECAUSE IT IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR  
>> QUESTION.
>
> And I am not disputing that. I am disputing your implicit claim that I  
> should have looked there instead of at the JComponent repaint method  
> cluster.

No.  My implicit claim is that you should have looked there when I  
directed you there.  You didn't even do that.

The fact is, because of the way the docs are structured, there is in fact  
a standard methodology that would have led you to that part of the  
documentation.  And I have been _explicit_ about how you can adopt that  
methodlogy to serve your needs better in the future.

But you couldn't even be bothered to go there when you were spoon-fed the  
link.  That's the "implicit claim" I made, if any.

> [...]
>>> I was looking for a Swing method, specifically a JComponent method.  
>>> There were two repaint methods in JComponent. Why would I go looking  
>>> somewhere else entirely for a third?
>>
>>  Because, as I already pointed out, Java is an OOP language
>
> Ridiculous. Where does it stop? All the way up at Object?

Yes.  All the way up to Object.  You can't ignore the inherited members of  
the base classes.

> I was asking a question about a Swing JComponent. I think stopping at  
> JComponent and not looking into the IMPLEMENTATION DETAIL that  
> JComponent is implemented using AWT base classes is perfectly goddamn  
> reasonable.

It's not an implementation detail at all.  It is a fundamental part of the  
JComponent class.  The implementation details are the code that's executed  
when the method is called.  But the presence of the method is part of the  
design (or the "interface", if you like).

> Oh, you disagree? So what? Go ahead and disagree. You have every right  
> to. It's your opinion. Where you cross the line into being a rude little  
> prig and a waste of time is when you decide, on the basis of A MERE  
> PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS, to start badmouthing other people in public,  
> to post time-wasting useless unhelpful responses to questions, and to  
> generally act like a jerk in public!

Hmmm...can you find even a single regular here in this newsgroup that  
believes the above paragraph describes me better than it does you?

> [...]
>> you cannot understand a given class without also understanding its base  
>> classes.
>
> Once again, you make the mistake of thinking that I'm trying to  
> understand JComponent in its entirety, implementation details and all,  
> rather than trying to simply use a JList in a particular instance.

Whatever.  I don't know how many times I have to point out that I've never  
used words like "thoroughly" or "entirety" with respect that what sort of  
understanding is needed.  You can repeat yourself as much as you like, it  
won't change what I actually wrote.

> [...]
>> and yet you refused to bother looking at the answer
>
> Wrong. I have already used the answer in my code.

Sure, after a few more posts that referred you back to the one with the  
answer that you ignored the first time.

> What I refused to do is submit to your claims regarding my competence,  
> and what I should or should not have done. And that's because I STILL DO  
> NOT AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THOSE THINGS. Got it?
>
>> because you made your own premature, uninformed and ill-advised
>> judgment that my answer wasn't what you were looking for.
>
> I did nothing of the sort, you liar.

Your immediate reply to my answer was:

     See above, though I take it you agree that
     repaint(getBounds()) is the best method.

     It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()"

No one who had bothered to look at the link I provided would have written  
such a thing.

So, not only did you do something of the sort, you did something exactly  
as I stated.

> [...]
>> but, at worst, whatever I write is only a waste of your time if you
>> read it.  No one's forcing you to.
>
> Unfortunately, I have to read all of your posts to this thread now  
> because there is a statistically high probability that any such post  
> contains some baseless slur or another against my good character that  
> will require public correction.

What do you care?  You're not even posting using a real name, and even if  
you were, nothing I write has any possibility of actual harm to you.

> [...]
>> Until you understand your mistake, you will keep making it.
>
> I.
> DID.
> NOT.
> MAKE.
> ANY.
> MISTAKE!

Right, we're back to that.  So again, what word would you prefer I use?

> [...]
>>> since it's in a completely different section of the API documentation.  
>>> Perhaps if it had been listed right next to the other two repaint  
>>> methods?
>>  Define "right next to".
>
> As in, the two were physically adjacent in the web page. The third was  
> on another page entirely. There may be a link to there on the JComponent  
> page, but if so, it's buried in one of those very dense blocks of  
> nothing but links far away from where the two methods were that I did  
> find.

Those "very dense blocks of nothing but links" are very important.  You  
cannot be successful using the Java API documentation unless you are  
willing to look at them.

> I don't have time to minutely examine every single link in a page the  
> size of that one when looking for a specific bit of information and when  
> it has (if perhaps falsely) implied that I've already found all that  
> page has to offer on the subject.

You must be using one of those ancient web browsers that doesn't have a  
search feature.  On either of the two browsers _I_ use regularly, I just  
tell the browser to find the text "repaint" for me, and it easily finds  
all five overloads.  On the same page.

> [...]
>>> But no, it can't possibly be the case that the docs are GENUINELY not  
>>> 100% perfect in structure and content, can it?
>>  No one's saying that the docs are perfect.
>
> You are implying it when you blame ME for something that actually  
> resulted from the docs' limitations.

I'm not "blaming" you for anything.  I'm offering advice to you that would  
help you in the future, if only you would settle down long enough to  
listen to it.

>> But in this particular case, they did not fail to provide the
>> information you wanted.
>
> In a certain technical sense. They did fail to put it where it would be  
> likely to be seen, though, which means they only did half of the job.
>
> Yes, I know, you disagree.

Yes, I do.

> I also don't care. Shut up about it, and shut up about me. There is  
> nothing further to say on this topic, so please don't waste everyone's  
> time.

You know...I would've just let it go if you hadn't gone off and commanded  
me to "shut up about it".  But I so enjoy flauting your authority (such as  
it is :) ).

> [...]
>> Every class has a description, then a summary of all its members,
>> followed by simple lists of each member of each base class, and
>> finally the elaborated descriptions of each member.
>
> And it is there, where I was supposed to, that I did indeed look. I  
> failed at nothing. I carried out the extent of my responsibility. And I  
> don't care that your opinion is otherwise, so don't bother saying so yet  
> again.

Oh, it's no bother.  My opinion is otherwise, and it's no trouble at all  
for me to mention it.

The fact is, this isn't about your "responsibility" at all.  The fact that  
you view it that way is really, really twisted.  This is about getting  
answers, using the documentation and technology as best you can.  There's  
no one who's keeping track of whether you "met all of your assigned tasks"  
or "fulfilled all of your responsibilities".

How you get any programming done at all, when you just stop at whatever  
point it is that you decide you've done everything you're _supposed_ to,  
as opposed to everything you could, I have no idea.  It doesn't sound very  
productive to me.

>> All you had to do was scroll down to the base classes for JComponent,  
>> looking at the members listed there, and you would have found the other  
>> repaint() methods.
>
> But why would I do that,

Because that's where the information is.  When you lose your car keys on  
the street, do you also always only look under the streetlamp because  
that's where the light is?

> [...]
>> If you are inexperienced and did not understand that, that's not a  
>> problem at all as long as you're willing to own up to that.  But when  
>> you repeatedly assert that you've made no mistake, that the method  
>> you're looking for doesn't exist, even when someone has specifically  
>> pointed you to it, then we come to...
>
> I have not done anything of the sort, you liar. I have only asserted  
> that I made no mistake (true) and that the method that I was looking for  
> wasn't listed in the obvious place, right beside the others. I never,  
> EVER claimed that it didn't even exist.

Sure you did, and you managed to do it right after I had pointed you to  
evidence to the contrary.  See the quote above from your previous post,  
where you wrote (and I'm paraphrasing here) "it doesn't exist".

> [...]
>>> Oh, no, if anyone has a question that the docs do sorta-obscurely  
>>> answer, then that person is automatically a complete idiot and the  
>>> only reasonable response to their question is to announce this, loudly  
>>> and publicly! :-P
>>
>>  I have announced nothing of the sort.
>
> You have implied it.

I disagree.

Pete

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:49:09 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

>> [...]
>>  What's your definition of "clueless"?  Because my definition, it  
>> includes the kinds of people that _quote_ the answer they are looking  
>> for, while at the same time claiming that what they are looking for  
>> does not exist.
>>
>> Maybe your definition is different.
>
> It isn't. However, nobody in this thread has done such a thing (at  
> least, not yet). You have claimed otherwise, but your claim was a lie.

Let me refresh your memory:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:27:01 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> [...]
>>> Provisionally, I'm using "repaint(getBounds())"; why there isn't a  
>>> no-args repaint-the-whole-thing method will probably remain an  
>>> enduring mystery long after my app has matured, had its heyday, and  
>>> become obsolete...
>>
>>  The only mystery is how you missed it:
>> http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/awt/Component.html#repaint()
>
> See above, though I take it you agree that repaint(getBounds()) is the  
> best method.
>
> It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()" [...]

What part about "It looks like the API is missing a no-arg repaint()" is  
not a claim that what you were looking for doesn't exist?

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:12:33 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Suspect what you will, but I did indeed examine the JComponent API 
>>> docs, and there were three public methods associated with repainting 
>>> -- not counting that repaint() had two overloads.
>>
>> I count FIVE overloads of repaint().
> 
> In the classes themselves, yes. In the JComponent method listing in the 
> API documentation, there are two. It is the JComponent method listing in 
> the API documentation that I was consulting, for obvious reasons.
....

The list headed "Method Summary", despite its heading, is *not* a
complete list of methods, only of the ones the class directly declares.
If the class inherits any methods there is a list, immediately after the
"Method Summary", of the methods inherited from each superclass.

Those lists are just as important for finding the method you need as the
"Method Summary".

In the case of JComponent and repaint, there are two overloadings in the
"Method Summary". There are also three appearances in the list of
"Methods inherited from class java.awt.Component", documenting the fact
that JComponent inherits three additional overloadings.

Patricia

zerg wrote:
> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> You can get as mad as you want but people are really trying to help you.
> 
> That's not what bothers me. It's that they are often remarkably 
> unsuccessful at SUCCEEDING that bothers me, and in fairly silly ways. 
> For example, if you know, for sure, the exact answer to the question, 
> and you don't include it in your response, well, that's just plain silly!
> 
>>  And having been around here for a while, when someone asks "What 
>> method do I use to repaint() a JComponent," we get sort of suspicious 
>> because repainting is rarely the solution to anything.
> 
> That's for the programmer to decide, not you. I know my code far better 
> than you do, and I don't see why you need to know jack about it in order 
> to provide a simple, straight answer for a simple question. If I had a 
> design-related conundrum I would ask a design-related question. When I 
> have a "how to do X very specific thing with Y" type of question, and 
> ask it, I want an equally specific answer, not some kind of inquest 
> based on some suspicion, based on very little evidence, that there's 
> some sort of problem with my design. I ask for what I want, but you 
> reply not with what I want but with your own mixture of suspicions, idle 
> questions, and sometimes outright insults.
> 
> My guess (and now I'm the one speculating about you with limited 
> information, instead of just giving a straightforward answer -- let's 
> see how you like it) is that it stems from a widespread belief among the 
> people here that nobody who asks a question here has the faintest clue 
> what the hell they're doing, and all need guidance as if from a teacher 
> or something instead of simple technical-support like responses that 
> directly answer specific questions.
> 
> Maybe many of the people who post here ARE that clueless. But it's 
> insulting to the rest of us when you treat us as if we ALL are, and it 
> obstructs just getting to the point as quickly as possible and then 
> moving on.
> 
>> And whether you believe it or not there IS a no-arg repaint() method. 
>> It belongs to JComponent.
> 
> JComponent has no no-arg repaint() method save, according to another 
> post to this thread, one it inherits from java.awt.Component. Of course, 
> since I was not looking at the AWT docs, only JList and JComponent, and 
> expecting anything generally useful for Swing components to be in the 
> latter in particular, I didn't know about it earlier.
> 
>> 1) Are you updating your ListModel on the EDT?
>>
>> 2) Are you doing long running tasks on the EDT (in a listener for 
>> example)?
>>
>> 3) Are you adding or removing components to your JList?
> 
> Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my previous post to this 
> thread. I have not finished the component and begun testing it yet. When 
> I do, I will of course observe normal Swing thread-safety procedures and 
> avoid doing long tasks on the EDT. (I am concerned about the need to 
> update the ListModel on the EDT though; it may be necessary eventually 
> to add large numbers of items, perhaps even tens of thousands, all in 
> one big bolus, which would tie up the EDT. Perhaps adding smaller 
> batches at a time, letting the EDT get some work done elsewhere, then 
> adding more, etc.; but then the list control is likely to keep 
> repainting itself until the job's done. Argh.)
> 
> The repaint issue has nothing to do with any observed problem with the 
> class. It occurred while still coding the first draft of the class, as I 
> wrote some methods to set some properties specific to my class that will 
> affect the cell renderer's rendering. Of course, this means that the 
> list should repaint itself, and at the same time since none of JList's 
> own setters have been invoked, the repaint won't have been triggered as 
> a side effect of anything in my setters, and so has to be scheduled 
> explicitly. (And I STILL don't know if I should revalidate in cases 
> where the cells may have changed size. Maybe it's time a better guide 
> specifically for component subclassers got written somewhere.)
> 
> (Convinced that I actually, honestly DO know what the heck I'm doing 
> now? :-P)

Call repaint() and come back with a better attitude when it doesn't work.

-- 

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute2008/

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
      ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
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Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
> PS: I AM NOT INSULTING YOU!

No; indeed, this was a very good response, which explains in detail what 
the differences among these are and how, when, and for what, exactly, 
they should be used -- which the docs by themselves were a bit skimpy 
on. This information would be good for adding to the Java Tutorial in 
the section on JComponent.

This is the sort of response I would have preferred from those others. 
Thank you.

zerg wrote:
> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
>>> three candidates:
>>>
>>> revalidate()
>>> repaint()
>>> update()
>>
>> Read Roedy's post and then tell us what you really want to do and what 
>> you've been doing before that.
> 
> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
> forbids the giving of a straight answer.

No.

But maybe you will find cljh better than cljp.

Arne

bugbear wrote:
> I strongly suspect the resident experts are actually
> trying to prevent short term wrong design decisions,
> inferred from your question, turning into long term,
> had to fix pain.

Unfortunately, they are inferring wrong.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:53:20 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>>  I count FIVE overloads of repaint().
>>
>> In the classes themselves, yes. In the JComponent method listing in 
>> the API documentation, there are two. It is the JComponent method 
>> listing in the API documentation that I was consulting, for obvious 
>> reasons.
> 
> And what reasons are those?

Because that's what leaps out at you when browsing the documentation 
looking for promising method names in the alphabetized list?

>> Rest of pedantic and rather insulting paragraph deleted. Have I not 
>> made it abundantly clear by now that your condescending and insulting 
>> attitude is unwelcome and you should not reply to me with such an 
>> attitude again? Either reply neutrally, or reply in a friendly manner, 
>> or do not reply at all.
> 
> Again with the imperatives.  I will reply to you in any manner I see fit.

Again with the threats! You will comport yourself in a polite manner or 
you will be sorry.

>> What the hell is your problem? Why are you being hostile toward me, 
>> when I had never done anything malicious to you, or even inadvertently 
>> slighted you?
> 
> Um, let's see.  There's one person in this thread who is cursing, 
> engaging in name-calling, and just generally getting their panties in a 
> twist for no good reason.

Yes, there is, and his name is Peter Duniho. Cursing: "RTFM", at least 
twice. Name-calling: calling me incompetent, stupid, and several other 
things, three or four in total at least. And counting. Panties in a 
twist: you are exhibiting signs of being insistent upon having the last 
word in an argument. Does that count?

> The idea that you've not done anything to deserve ire from someone else 
> is

quite natural.

> It's funny.  Looking back at various threads, you seem to accuse people 
> of hostile and other unsavory behavior to you quite often.

There have been approximately three threads where I have done so, and 
every time somebody had been treating me with some level or another of 
verbal disrespect, without provocation, beforehand.

> And yet, the 
> people whom you accuse don't seem to be accused of that behavior by 
> anyone else.

That's not what a Google Groups search says. There have been a couple of 
other people that have called people on being rude here over the years. 
The sets of people that they've called rude have a fair degree of 
overlap, too, particularly tending to include Andreas, Andrew, Arne, and 
Lew. Interestingly, your own name has not turned up. Maybe you're fairly 
new, too, and picked a poor choice of role models.

> You will probably think this is just coincidence, or perhaps some form 
> of persecution.  But the fact is, you seem to have trouble getting along 
> with others

I don't have any trouble getting along with others so long as those 
others treat me with a certain minimum level of respect. In other words, 
I don't have any trouble getting along with others unless they have 
trouble getting along with me first.

> and seem to think that this newsgroup owes you much more 
> than it really does.

No, I think it owes me only the most basic and obvious things, in 
particular that I be treated as a person, not a number, and with a 
reasonable level of respect, similar to how you'd treat someone you 
talked to on the phone or met face-to-face. In other words, my 
expectations have been entirely reasonable, being limited as they have 
been to basically "people will remember the manners their mothers taught 
them and comport themselves appropriately for public dialogue with 
strangers around".

Unfortunately, some people seem to think that politeness rules go out 
the window as soon as they hook up a modem to their telephone line. But 
it is those people that are in the wrong, not I.

Knute Johnson wrote:
> Call repaint() and come back with a better attitude when it doesn't work.

My attitude is fine. It is Peter's attitude that leaves much to be desired.

Are you now contradicting Peter and claiming that repaint() WON'T work? 
Because he indicated that it WILL.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:49:09 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> It isn't. However, nobody in this thread has done such a thing (at 
>> least, not yet). You have claimed otherwise, but your claim was a lie.
> 
>> It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()" [...]
> 
> What part about "It looks like the API is missing a no-arg repaint()" is 
> not a claim that what you were looking for doesn't exist?

It's a claim that what I was looking for doesn't exist IN THAT 
ALPHABETIC LIST OF JCOMPONENT METHODS.

It turns out to exist, SOMEWHERE ELSE.

There is no contradiction here.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:07:20 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

>>> In the classes themselves, yes. In the JComponent method listing in  
>>> the API documentation, there are two. It is the JComponent method  
>>> listing in the API documentation that I was consulting, for obvious  
>>> reasons.
>>  And what reasons are those?
>
> Because that's what leaps out at you when browsing the documentation  
> looking for promising method names in the alphabetized list?

I see.  So you _do_ look for your car keys under the streetlight, even  
though you dropped them elsewhere.

Here's a hint: people who want to be successful do more than just look  
where it's easy.

>>  Again with the imperatives.  I will reply to you in any manner I see  
>> fit.
>
> Again with the threats! You will comport yourself in a polite manner or  
> you will be sorry.

I have been nothing but polite here.  I made no threats.  I simply pointed  
out that you have no control over me and I will do as I please, not  
necessarily as you please.  The sooner you get over the fact that you  
don't have any authority whatsoever over me, the sooner you'll be able to  
stop making absurd commands.

I find it downright hilarious that you complain that I'm "threatening"  
you, and then proceed to tell me I "will be sorry".  It's unfortunate  
you're not capable of appreciating the irony.  It really is quite funny.

>>> What the hell is your problem? Why are you being hostile toward me,  
>>> when I had never done anything malicious to you, or even inadvertently  
>>> slighted you?
>>  Um, let's see.  There's one person in this thread who is cursing,  
>> engaging in name-calling, and just generally getting their panties in a  
>> twist for no good reason.
>
> Yes, there is, and his name is Peter Duniho. Cursing: "RTFM",at least  
> twice.

"RTFM" is a colloquialism, not a curse.

> Name-calling: calling me incompetent, stupid, and several other things,  
> three or four in total at least.

I definitely never called you stupid _or_ incompetent (even if I did think  
it).  If it would make you feel better, I'm happy to start.  But only on  
your request.

> And counting. Panties in a twist: you are exhibiting signs of being  
> insistent upon having the last word in an argument. Does that count?

No, it doesn't.  But I'll point out that when it comes to "being insistent  
upon having the last word", it takes two.  I only demonstrate such an  
insistence inasmuch as you do as well, giving me new opportunities to add  
words.

> [...]
>> It's funny.  Looking back at various threads, you seem to accuse people  
>> of hostile and other unsavory behavior to you quite often.
>
> There have been approximately three threads where I have done so, and  
> every time somebody had been treating me with some level or another of  
> verbal disrespect, without provocation, beforehand.

No doubt you are under the mistaken impression that's what's happened here  
too.

> [...]
> I don't have any trouble getting along with others so long as those  
> others treat me with a certain minimum level of respect. In other words,  
> I don't have any trouble getting along with others unless they have  
> trouble getting along with me first.

This thread is clear proof to the contrary.

>> and seem to think that this newsgroup owes you much more than it really  
>> does.
>
> No, I think it owes me only the most basic and obvious things,

Bzzt.  It owes you _nothing_.  Not even the most basic and obvious things.

> in particular that I be treated as a person, not a number, and with a  
> reasonable level of respect, similar to how you'd treat someone you  
> talked to on the phone or met face-to-face.

I can't speak for the others, but I assure you that I have in every way  
treated you exactly as I would when speaking, on the phone or  
face-to-face.  I wonder if you would be so paranoid as you've been here,  
under those circumstances.

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:05:31 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> I told you to stop posting attack posts, and to killfile me if you had 
>> to in order to achieve that objective.
> 
> That you did.  Since I haven't posted any attack posts

A lie.

In quoting your post, I have omitted without comment several chunks of 
insulting but otherwise content-free nonsense and several threats, 
starting with one such threat that had occurred right after the above 
quoted material. It was my determination that none of that crap was 
worthy of being dignified with a specific response. Suffice it to say 
that pretty much none of your judgments of me carry any weight 
whatsoever -- what insults of yours weren't mere opinion (and 
narrow-minded, ill-informed opinion at that) were instead outright 
factually wrong.

>> Stop posting attack posts. If you cannot resist replying to everything 
>> I write with nasty nonsense, killfile me.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> Where I looked, the JComponent method listing, I saw two overloads, 
>> not five. I acted reasonably based on what I saw in the obvious place 
>> to look. That I did not additionally look in some non-obvious place is 
>> of no importance; furthermore it is no skin off your nose.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this. 
In particular, he did not address the "no skin off your nose" part of my 
previous post, where I established quite clearly that his getting angry 
at me for my not looking someplace non-obvious for something was 
completely unreasonable on his part. Who died and made Peter the Grand 
Arbiter of Where People Must Look, Or Else?)

>> I did not make any mistake. I do not make mistakes. Stop lying about 
>> me in public.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this. 
As expected, he merely denied having lied, despite having been caught in 
numerous lies recently.)

>> The whole purpose of API documentation and object-oriented design, of 
>> course, is to make users of a class not need to concern themselves 
>> with the implementation details. Therefore, not concerning myself with 
>> the implementation details when using object-oriented classes is not a 
>> mistake; it is expected and normal behavior.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this, 
just more opinionated and insulting nastiness.)

>> I don't share your opinion on what I do or do not need to do. I don't 
>> care what your opinion is regarding what I do or do not need to do. I 
>> doubt anyone else reading this newsgroup cares what your opinion is, 
>> either. Why are you wasting time and bandwidth by broadcasting your 
>> irrelevant, small-minded, and boring opinion to the world?
> 
> My purpose is in sharing information that you and others may find useful

I have surely made it abundantly clear, by now, that I don't find any of 
your insulting blather useful. You've said about ten thousand words in 
this thread already, of which a grant total of perhaps a dozen were 
actually useful, nearly all of them in the one phrase 
"http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/awt/Component.html#repaint() ".

(Peter followed up the above bogus "statement of purpose" with another 
full paragraph of insulting twaddle that has been largely ignored by me.)

> I know why I'm posting.  Why are you?  What are you contributing?

At this time, I'm posting to get answers to questions, and now also to 
try to dispose of these baseless mischaracterizations of me that you 
keep posting in public.

>> That means that the docs are poorly written.
> 
> I never said the docs were perfect.

Well, now that that's settled, will you PLEASE stop getting on my case 
for not finding them 100% perfectly clear on some topics?

>> I do not need to do anything. The documentation writers need to better 
>> document that method.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> Obviously not, as I have just demonstrated that the thing you said was 
>> in your javadoc for one of those methods was not in the description 
>> text for either of them in my copy of the javadoc.
> 
> It most certainly is.

No, it is not.

I POSTED THE ENTIRE DESCRIPTION TEXT FOR BOTH METHODS HERE, OMITTING 
NOTHING, AND THE THING THAT YOU CLAIMED WAS IN ONE OF THEM WAS IN 
NEITHER. YOU EVEN ADMITTED THAT IT WAS, INSTEAD, IN THE DOCS FOR A THIRD 
METHOD.

STOP YOUR DAMN LYING!

Why do you even bother? Anyone with even as rudimentary a text editor as 
Notepad can prove you a liar in this instance:
* Select the description text for the first method, paste in an empty
   Notepad window.
* Select the description text for the second method, paste in the same
   Notepad window below the first pasting.
* Search in that Notepad window for "repaint".
* Observe that the search finds no results.
* Conclude that you lied when you said that one of those methods'
   descriptions said to use repaint instead.

And as for your subsequent weasel-words: You are still a liar and a 
charlatan. Get thee hence!

>>>  From the description of JComponent.paint()
>>
>> That is not either of the two methods whose javadocs are at issue.
>>
>> So, you DID lie.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> I am definitely going to plonk you now, just as soon as this thread 
>> has died down.
> 
> Why not just do it now?

Because if I do it now, you will post another bunch of posts like these, 
badmouthing me in public, and people will read them but not see any 
reply from me explaining that you are wrong. And then they may think 
that you're right, and thus think poorly of me.

Every time you post something hostile about me I will post something 
that says that your post is untrue.

I will continue to do so until you get the message and stop trying to 
defame me.

I certainly will not allow you to get your wish, that of having the last 
word, not now that you have made this personal!

(Immediately after "Why not just do it now?", Peter misquoted me 
intentionally and mischaracterized what I wrote, falsely accusing me of 
being dishonest.)

>> I have now demonstrated that you are being intentionally hostile and 
>> dishonest. Clearly your only purpose here is to try to provoke a 
>> full-blown flamewar. Were I a lesser man, you might well have actually 
>> succeeded.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> And I am not disputing that. I am disputing your implicit claim that I 
>> should have looked there instead of at the JComponent repaint method 
>> cluster.
> 
> No.  My implicit claim is that you should have looked there when I 
> directed you there.  You didn't even do that.

(Peter had nothing else meaningful and worthwhile to say here.)

Yes, I did. I continued to argue with you about OTHER THINGS THAN WHICH 
REPAINT METHOD TO USE. Namely, on the various irrelevant side topics 
like "is Zerg stupid?" that you raised, and where obviously I have a 
vested interest in debunking your numerous myths, fables, and outright lies.

>> Ridiculous. Where does it stop? All the way up at Object?

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> I was asking a question about a Swing JComponent. I think stopping at 
>> JComponent and not looking into the IMPLEMENTATION DETAIL that 
>> JComponent is implemented using AWT base classes is perfectly goddamn 
>> reasonable.
> 
> It's not an implementation detail at all.

Certainly it is, or it wouldn't be in another package entirely. They 
could have written a Swing component class from scratch, since it 
doesn't use a native peer. That they didn't do so and inherited from a 
pre-existing class for code reuse instead is, of course, an 
implementation detail.

>> Oh, you disagree? So what? Go ahead and disagree. You have every right 
>> to. It's your opinion. Where you cross the line into being a rude 
>> little prig and a waste of time is when you decide, on the basis of A 
>> MERE PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS, to start badmouthing other people in 
>> public, to post time-wasting useless unhelpful responses to questions, 
>> and to generally act like a jerk in public!

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> Once again, you make the mistake of thinking that I'm trying to 
>> understand JComponent in its entirety, implementation details and all, 
>> rather than trying to simply use a JList in a particular instance.
> 
> Whatever.

Then our argument here is done. You can go ahead and stop posting to 
this thread now.

> I ... I've ... with respect ... what sort of understanding is needed.

(Peter had nothing else meaningful and worthwhile to say here.)

What sort of understanding is needed IN YOUR OPINION is not germane to 
any of this newsgroup's on-charter traffic. If you have an opinion as to 
what sort of understanding is needed, fine -- apply it when you yourself 
seek to understand some chunk of the API. Do not, however, arrogantly 
presume that all and sundry MUST hold the same opinions themselves, "or 
else". You don't get to decide that.

How would you like it if I told YOU that YOUR opinion of how much 
understanding was needed was no good, and you were a terrible person for 
not having the exact same opinion as I did about the matter?

Perhaps I think that "the classics" are an essential part of a 
well-rounded education. Does that give me a good reason to publicly 
badmouth you in the event that it somehow comes to my attention that you 
are not knowledgeable about "the classics"?

Perhaps I think that it is unwise to attempt to fly an aircraft over a 
large body of water without a minimum of 15 months' piloting experience. 
Does that give me a good reason to publicly badmouth you in the event 
that it somehow comes to my attention that you flew a plane over a large 
body of water less than three months after beginning training?

I didn't think so.

>> Wrong. I have already used the answer in my code.
> 
> Sure

Well, now that that's settled, can we stop arguing?

>>> because you made your own premature, uninformed and ill-advised
>>> judgment that my answer wasn't what you were looking for.
>>
>> I did nothing of the sort, you liar.
> 
> Your immediate reply to my answer was:
> 
>     See above, though I take it you agree that
>     repaint(getBounds()) is the best method.
> 
>     It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()"
> 
> No one who had bothered to look at the link I provided would have 
> written such a thing.

Obviously, someone would -- I did.

Perhaps I should have been more clear before, though. By "the API" I 
meant "the methods in the JComponent alphabetic method listing".

>> Unfortunately, I have to read all of your posts to this thread now 
>> because there is a statistically high probability that any such post 
>> contains some baseless slur or another against my good character that 
>> will require public correction.
> 
> What do you care?

That's none of your damn business. It's my right to care or not as I see 
fit, and you have no place questioning me on such matters!

Next time you try to peek through any keyhole of mine, you can expect to 
get a poke in the eye.

>> I.
>> DID.
>> NOT.
>> MAKE.
>> ANY.
>> MISTAKE!
> 
> Right, we're back to that.  So again, what word would you prefer I use?

How about "didn't live up to Peter's inflated and excessive expectations"?

Not that your personal expectations of other peoples' performance at 
activities like research have any legitimate bearing on anything in this 
news group.

(Especially when those expectations are apparently rather stringent and 
cannot be met at all by anyone that doesn't have oodles of free time to 
devote solely to pleasing Peter the freaking Great over here.)

>> As in, the two were physically adjacent in the web page. The third was 
>> on another page entirely. There may be a link to there on the 
>> JComponent page, but if so, it's buried in one of those very dense 
>> blocks of nothing but links far away from where the two methods were 
>> that I did find.
> 
> Those "very dense blocks of nothing but links" are very important.

(Peter had nothing else meaningful and worthwhile to say here.)

I didn't claim otherwise. I did note that they are not very readable or 
very amenable to skimming or extracting, in a time-efficient manner, any 
kind of useful information.

>> I don't have time to minutely examine every single link in a page the 
>> size of that one when looking for a specific bit of information and 
>> when it has (if perhaps falsely) implied that I've already found all 
>> that page has to offer on the subject.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> You are implying it when you blame ME for something that actually 
>> resulted from the docs' limitations.
> 
> I'm not "blaming" you for anything.

A lie. If you were not blaming me for something, you would not feel 
justified in punishing me for something, and if you were not (trying to 
be) punishing me for something, you would have behaved respectfully 
towards me, since I'd not done you any ill.

You were snappy and nasty to me from the get-go. People only do that if 
they feel hostility of some sort -- anger, resentment, whatever -- 
toward someone. Which they only do if they perceive that someone to have 
wronged them in some way. That is to say, they blame them for something.

However, I am not to blame. I am, in fact, never to blame for anything 
whatsoever, because I always do due diligence to avoid any action that 
reasonably foreseeably will cause harm, and I never act out of outright 
malice. And, of course, I cannot reasonably be blamed for anything given 
those two things -- anything bad resulting from an action of mine 
despite my due diligence is either an accident, with no blame at all to 
be assigned, or the result of SOMEONE ELSE'S CHOICE.

In the case of this spot of unpleasantness and all these off-topic 
posts, they stem not from my asking a question here in good faith, but 
from your responding in bad faith. In other words, the blame here falls 
squarely on YOU.

> I'm offering advice to you that would help you in the future, if
> only you would settle down long enough to listen to it.

That tired old line again. If you were genuinely interested solely in 
magnanimously providing advice, then you would simply furnish the advice 
in a neutral or friendly manner, remaining civil and polite at all times.

No, you are not trying to dispense advice, you have an ax to grind and 
you will not let go of it.

Admitting that is the first step, Peter.

Go on. I dare ya.

>>> But in this particular case, they did not fail to provide the
>>> information you wanted.
>>
>> In a certain technical sense. They did fail to put it where it would 
>> be likely to be seen, though, which means they only did half of the job.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> I also don't care. Shut up about it, and shut up about me. There is 
>> nothing further to say on this topic, so please don't waste everyone's 
>> time.
> 
> You know...I would've just let it go if you hadn't gone off and 
> commanded me to "shut up about it".  But I so enjoy flauting your 
> authority (such as it is :) ).

So much for "I'm only posting here to provide genuinely helpful 
advice!"; you're only posting here to be a prick now, and you've just 
admitted it.

Congratulations. Now EVERYONE here can feel free to killfile you, secure 
in the knowledge that they won't be missing much by doing so.

>> And it is there, where I was supposed to, that I did indeed look. I 
>> failed at nothing. I carried out the extent of my responsibility. And 
>> I don't care that your opinion is otherwise, so don't bother saying so 
>> yet again.

(Peter had nothing truly meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to 
this, but I'll respond to a few isolated sentences of drivel anyway.)

> The fact is, this isn't about your "responsibility" at all.

You are behaving in a hostile manner toward me. You are badmouthing me 
in public. You claim to be doing so because I didn't research something 
in as much depth as you would have preferred I did.

You have also arrogantly claimed that your opinion on how much depth of 
research is desirable is in some way actually universal, or even a 
factual truth.

In other words, in your opinion, it is not merely the case that my 
research efforts didn't meet your personal standards, but, because in 
your opinion your opinions acquire the force of law here, in your 
opinion I actually had a DUTY to research to at least that depth and 
failed to fulfill it. You have even used almost that exact phrase, 
"failed to fulfill it", a couple of times in berating me in this thread!

You have, therefore, implicitly been claiming that I had a 
responsibility that I did not live up to.

Heck, just look at the fact that you are (still!) seeking to punish me 
for not living up to your exacting standards! Someone who has merely 
disagreed with you on a matter of opinion surely would not be deserving 
of punishment. Only someone who had actually failed to live up to an 
obligation, a responsibility of some sort, would be so deserving. So 
your very actions prove that you THINK that I DID shirk some responsibility.

Even though I did not actually do so.

> This is about getting answers, using the documentation and technology
> as best you can.

No, this is about whether or not zerg is a bad person. The simple fact 
that 80+% of the (non-quoted) word count in your posts is devoted to 
trying to support your claim that I am one is sufficient evidence that 
that is what this is really all about.

> There's no one who's keeping track of whether you "met all of your 
> assigned tasks" or "fulfilled all of your responsibilities".

Sure there is -- there's you, and anyone failing to do so (according to 
YOUR OPINION of what their responsibilities should be) gets flamed to a 
crispy brown!

Don't think people haven't noticed.

>>> All you had to do was scroll down to the base classes for JComponent, 
>>> looking at the members listed there, and you would have found the 
>>> other repaint() methods.
>>
>> But why would I do that,
> 
> Because that's where the information is.

(Peter had nothing else meaningful and worthwhile to say here.)

That's ludicrous. That's like suggesting that if I am looking for 
information on Blargle mating rituals, I should go to 
http://some.obscure.site/noone/ever/heard/of/blargles/mating.html 
because "that's where the information is" despite a hypothetical Google 
search having come up empty. How, exactly, was I expected to come by 
that URL? Come on. You have those very exactingly high standards. Surely 
you live up to them yourself before publicly berating everyone who you 
discover fails to do so. Tell us all how you do it so that we can 
actually start to live up to your high and exalted standards! (Just so 
long as there's a procedure we can follow that WON'T add six hours or 
more to the time spent researching any given situation.)

Oh, but that wouldn't do, now, would it? Because you enjoy berating 
people for not living up to your exacting standards, don't you? If 
everyone started to actually live up to them, you'd lose your primary 
source of entertainment and ego gratification, and that simply would not do!

Get the hell out of this newsgroup; comp.lang.java.programmer is for 
adults to discuss Java programming in a civil and polite fashion, not 
for you to manipulate and troll for your own personal gratification. As 
long as your purposes here are in conflict with the newsgroup's charter, 
you should post elsewhere instead and avoid getting in the way of us 
adults trying to discuss Java programming.

>> I have not done anything of the sort, you liar. I have only asserted 
>> that I made no mistake (true) and that the method that I was looking 
>> for wasn't listed in the obvious place, right beside the others. I 
>> never, EVER claimed that it didn't even exist.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>>>> Oh, no, if anyone has a question that the docs do sorta-obscurely 
>>>> answer, then that person is automatically a complete idiot and the 
>>>> only reasonable response to their question is to announce this, 
>>>> loudly and publicly! :-P
>>>
>>>  I have announced nothing of the sort.
>>
>> You have implied it.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

It is your very actions in this thread that imply it. Don't you see?

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:07:20 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Because that's what leaps out at you when browsing the documentation 
>> looking for promising method names in the alphabetized list?

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this. 
Rude and condescending, yes, and with erroneous speculation about me to 
boot, but meaningful and worthwhile? Not on your life.)

>> Again with the threats! You will comport yourself in a polite manner 
>> or you will be sorry.
> 
> I have been nothing but polite here.

(What a liar!)

> I made no threats.

(What a liar! And he proceeds to make another nasty threat right after 
this!)

>>>  Um, let's see.  There's one person in this thread who is cursing, 
>>> engaging in name-calling, and just generally getting their panties in 
>>> a twist for no good reason.
>>
>> Yes, there is, and his name is Peter Duniho. Cursing: "RTFM",at least 
>> twice.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> Name-calling: calling me incompetent, stupid, and several other 
>> things, three or four in total at least.
> 
> I definitely never called you stupid _or_ incompetent (even if I did 
> think it).

You are definitely a liar.

>> And counting. Panties in a twist: you are exhibiting signs of being 
>> insistent upon having the last word in an argument. Does that count?

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>>> It's funny.  Looking back at various threads, you seem to accuse 
>>> people of hostile and other unsavory behavior to you quite often.
>>
>> There have been approximately three threads where I have done so, and 
>> every time somebody had been treating me with some level or another of 
>> verbal disrespect, without provocation, beforehand.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> I don't have any trouble getting along with others so long as those 
>> others treat me with a certain minimum level of respect. In other 
>> words, I don't have any trouble getting along with others unless they 
>> have trouble getting along with me first.

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> No, I think it owes me only the most basic and obvious things,

(Peter had nothing meaningful and worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> in particular that I be treated as a person, not a number, and with a 
>> reasonable level of respect, similar to how you'd treat someone you 
>> talked to on the phone or met face-to-face.
> 
> I can't speak for the others, but I assure you that I have in every way 
> treated you exactly as I would when speaking, on the phone or 
> face-to-face.

(Peter had nothing else meaningful and worthwhile to say here, but he 
did take the next traditional step and add false accusations of ill 
mental health to his repertoire of insulting lies.)

Then you must get an awful lot of punches in the nose. Heck, you 
probably even have a reconstructive surgeon on speed dial. "Dammit, 
someone popped me one again and it's crooked again. How soon can you 
schedule me so I can have it straightened out again?"

That's what happens, after all, if you routinely go about looking down 
your nose at anyone who doesn't live up to your standards of absolute 
perfection, and moreover insinuate in front of other people that such 
people are idiots, incompetent fools, or whatever.

You need to look deeply into your own motives here, methinks. You 
obviously aren't here to help people. Why do you find some people not 
worth your while to spend five minutes helping, but nonetheless worth 
your while to spend five hours publicly denouncing and berating?

That is not the time prioritization of a helper; it is the time 
prioritization of a fault-finder whose primary mission is to find fault 
in others and loudly broadcast every occurrence that you find (according 
to your own ridiculously stringent standards, too, so you'll probably 
have lots of nasty and small-minded opinions to say about anyone, no 
matter how saintly).

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> You know...I would've just let it go.  But I so enjoy flauting your 
>> authority (such as it is :) ).
> 
> Congratulations. Now EVERYONE here can feel free to killfile you, secure 
> in the knowledge that they won't be missing much by doing so.

FWIW, I've just killfiled the both of you. Merry fucking Christmas!

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:18:47 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> [...]
>>  I can't speak for the others, but I assure you that I have in every  
>> way treated you exactly as I would when speaking, on the phone or  
>> face-to-face.
>
> Then you must get an awful lot of punches in the nose.

Not at all.  Very few people have a persecution complex.

> [...]
> You need to look deeply into your own motives here, methinks. You  
> obviously aren't here to help people. Why do you find some people not  
> worth your while to spend five minutes helping, but nonetheless worth  
> your while to spend five hours publicly denouncing and berating?

I have not once denounced or berated you.  That's all in your head.

Maybe when you're older, you'll realize just how wrong you've been.

Pete

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:07:56 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:

> [zerg had nothing truthful to say at all]

Sorry you wasted all that time writing for nothing.

Peter Duniho wrote:

(Peter had nothing truthful to say at all; merely wasted a post calling 
me a liar when he's the liar here.)

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:18:47 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Then you must get an awful lot of punches in the nose.

(Peter had nothing meaningful or worthwhile to say in response to this. 
All he did was idly speculate about my mental health in a vacuum of any 
actual information or expertise on the topic.)

>> You need to look deeply into your own motives here, methinks. You 
>> obviously aren't here to help people. Why do you find some people not 
>> worth your while to spend five minutes helping, but nonetheless worth 
>> your while to spend five hours publicly denouncing and berating?

(Peter had nothing meaningful or worthwhile to say in response to this, 
either, just vehement and empty denials of having done what anyone can 
see he did just by browsing this thread.)

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:53:20 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>>>  I count FIVE overloads of repaint().
>>>
>>> In the classes themselves, yes. In the JComponent method listing in 
>>> the API documentation, there are two. It is the JComponent method 
>>> listing in the API documentation that I was consulting, for obvious 
>>> reasons.
>>
>> And what reasons are those?
> 
> Because that's what leaps out at you when browsing the documentation 
> looking for promising method names in the alphabetized list?

You're looking for a method to get a JComponent to repaint. I don't know 
about you, but I consider repainting to be a core widget action. That 
means I will look first at the root of the widget hierarchy, which is 
obviously Component (JComponent is only the root of the lightweight 
hierarchy). Ergo, JComponent is only a red herring in the method search.

Also, if you examine the basic structure of the AWT and Swing methods, 
you will find LARGE numbers of overloads, and especially methods that do 
fair amount of method wrapping (i.e. A is really a wrapper around B with 
a bit more magic involved). So although JComponent sets stuff up so that 
creating new widgets is simple, it does so by only modifying the roots 
of these wraps.

Looking for methods only in a leaf class is not going to be complete.

> Yes, there is, and his name is Peter Duniho. Cursing: "RTFM", at least 
> twice.

Actually, some people interpret "RTFM" as "Read The Fine Manual", i.e., 
look at the nuances deep in the text.

> The sets of people that they've called rude have a fair degree of 
> overlap, too, particularly tending to include Andreas, Andrew, Arne, and 
> Lew.

Account for the fact that Andrew and Lew are in what I would consider 
the top tier of posters (the other two being Roedy and Patricia); the 
others are in the second tier. For comparison, I would place myself no 
higher than the third tier of posters, and even that is a stretch for 
me. Those who respond the most tend to be those who get the most mud 
flung at them. Posters of... controversy probably get more, though 
(think XahLee, Twisted, or JSH).

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:30:57 -0400,
	zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> If you had looked at the docs you would have seen that the no-arg 
>> repaint() belongs to Component.
>
> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I be 
> poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.

In the Java documentation, just after the alphabetical list of methods
under the heading 'Method Summary', there are lists of all methods that
are inherited from each of the superclasses. the no-argument repaint()
is in one of those lists, and the link takes you straight to the
description in the superclass where it's defined. You don't need to
search any other class documentation but the class you're directly
interested in, but you should check all the possible lists of methods in
that documentation.

Regards,
Martien
-- 
                        | 
Martien Verbruggen      | It's not what we don't know that hurts us,
                        | it's what we know for certain that just ain't
                        | so. -- Mark Twain

Martien Verbruggen wrote:

> In the Java documentation, just after the alphabetical list of methods
> under the heading 'Method Summary', there are lists of all methods that
> are inherited from each of the superclasses. the no-argument repaint()

Those lists of inherited methods are a pain to read, imo.  They're 
mostly useful for searching (Control-F in most browsers).

I think it's easier to click on the link at the top to the superclass, 
and read the nicely formatted method summary.  Then keep clicking and 
reading until you hit Object.

Mark Space wrote:
> Martien Verbruggen wrote:
>> In the Java documentation, just after the alphabetical list of methods
>> under the heading 'Method Summary', there are lists of all methods that
>> are inherited from each of the superclasses. the no-argument repaint()
> 
> Those lists of inherited methods are a pain to read, imo.  They're 
> mostly useful for searching (Control-F in most browsers).
> 
> I think it's easier to click on the link at the top to the superclass, 
> and read the nicely formatted method summary.  Then keep clicking and 
> reading until you hit Object.

It is usually not a problem to read everything at the first
page.

But Swing classes do tend to be a bit heavy in methods.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:35:50 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> I begin to suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code here that 
>>> forbids the giving of a straight answer.
>>
>> Forgive us if we suspect that there's some sort of unwritten code 
>> among questioners that forbids the inspection of the relevant 
>> documentation before asking a question.
> 
> Suspect what you will, but I did indeed examine the JComponent API docs, 
> and there were three public methods associated with repainting -- not 
> counting that repaint() had two overloads.
> 
> I may have been somewhat biased by what I was specifically searching 
> for, namely a no-argument method for "repaint the whole component". It 
> looks like maybe that is simply lacking.

It is in the documentation.

You just need to read it.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> You can get as mad as you want but people are really trying to help you.
> 
> That's not what bothers me. It's that they are often remarkably 
> unsuccessful at SUCCEEDING that bothers me, and in fairly silly ways. 
> For example, if you know, for sure, the exact answer to the question, 
> and you don't include it in your response, well, that's just plain silly!

In this group people have some expectations about the posters
of questions.

Those begging to learn Java or learn programming should find
groups better suited for that.

>>  And having been around here for a while, when someone asks "What 
>> method do I use to repaint() a JComponent," we get sort of suspicious 
>> because repainting is rarely the solution to anything.
> 
> That's for the programmer to decide, not you. I know my code far better 
> than you do, and I don't see why you need to know jack about it in order 
> to provide a simple, straight answer for a simple question. If I had a 
> design-related conundrum I would ask a design-related question. When I 
> have a "how to do X very specific thing with Y" type of question, and 
> ask it, I want an equally specific answer, not some kind of inquest 
> based on some suspicion, based on very little evidence, that there's 
> some sort of problem with my design. I ask for what I want, but you 
> reply not with what I want but with your own mixture of suspicions, idle 
> questions, and sometimes outright insults.

That is a typical mistake among new programmers.

You really don't want to learn how to do something stupid - you
want to know how to do the right thing.

That sometimes require taking a step back and focus on what
instead of how.

This is a forum where you get the best advice whether you want
it or not.

The smart people learn - other don't.

> JComponent has no no-arg repaint() method save, according to another 
> post to this thread, one it inherits from java.awt.Component. Of course, 
> since I was not looking at the AWT docs, only JList and JComponent, and 
> expecting anything generally useful for Swing components to be in the 
> latter in particular, I didn't know about it earlier.

It is on the JComponent document page as well.

There is this thing called a vertical scroll bar out
when you browse the docs. Use it ! Or be really advanced
and use the search function !!

>> 1) Are you updating your ListModel on the EDT?
>>
>> 2) Are you doing long running tasks on the EDT (in a listener for 
>> example)?
>>
>> 3) Are you adding or removing components to your JList?
> 
> Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my previous post to this 
> thread. I have not finished the component and begun testing it yet. When 
> I do, I will of course observe normal Swing thread-safety procedures and 
> avoid doing long tasks on the EDT.

I suggest you do it right the first time.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> there is in fact a "no parameter" overload of the method (see below).
> 
> In an AWT class, apparently, where I of course didn't go looking for it 
> since I'm working with Swing.

It is is on the doc page for the class you are using also - all you
need to do is scroll.

> If you'd prefer not to answer a question, for some particular reason, 
> you could always not post any kind of response to it at all. One thing I 
> will certainly not tolerate, however, is any sort of response that 
> implies, in front of a worldwide audience no less, that you think I'm in 
> some way incompetent. Stop doing that!

Do you think anyone will stop doing anything just because you say so ????

> In a place where I didn't look, and where I had no reason to look, since 
> it's in a completely different section of the API documentation.

Same page.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:30:57 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I 
>>> be poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.
>>
>> Because Swing is built on top of AWT.
>>
>> JComponent inherits Component.  You can't understand JComponent 
>> without understanding Component.
> 
> The same mistake you've made several times before. You assume that I 
> seek to thoroughly understand JComponent. I don't. I seek to use it in a 
> particular way at this particular time.

Maybe you should start with some basic OOP.

The methods of a parent class is just as relevant for using a class
as the methods implemented in the sub class.

> There is no end-of-term exam. There is only whether or not, at the end 
> of the day, they have gotten their work done and have not fallen behind 
> any schedule that might apply. To whatever extent you waste their time 
> with irrelevancies and to-you-fascinating side diversions such as 
> learning the implementation and internals of a Java class in depth, you 
> are doing them a disservice.

If you want to decide what type and form of advice you get, then I
will recommend hiring a consultant - for 200-300 USD/hr such a person
will provide you with exactly what you want.

If you want it for free, then you will need to live with what
can get.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Knute Johnson wrote:
>> Call repaint() and come back with a better attitude when it doesn't work.
> 
> My attitude is fine.

Have you tried counting opinions on that ?

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:49:09 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> It isn't. However, nobody in this thread has done such a thing (at 
>>> least, not yet). You have claimed otherwise, but your claim was a lie.
>>
>>> It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()" [...]
>>
>> What part about "It looks like the API is missing a no-arg repaint()" 
>> is not a claim that what you were looking for doesn't exist?
> 
> It's a claim that what I was looking for doesn't exist IN THAT 
> ALPHABETIC LIST OF JCOMPONENT METHODS.
> 
> It turns out to exist, SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Is it too much to assume that people read all the relevant
sections of a page ?

Arne

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>> there is in fact a "no parameter" overload of the method (see below).
>>
>> In an AWT class, apparently, where I of course didn't go looking for 
>> it since I'm working with Swing.
> 
> It is is on the doc page for the class you are using also - all you
> need to do is scroll.

A link was. Buried in a dense mass of text that isn't very amenable to 
skimming, no less.

>> If you'd prefer not to answer a question, for some particular reason, 
>> you could always not post any kind of response to it at all. One thing 
>> I will certainly not tolerate, however, is any sort of response that 
>> implies, in front of a worldwide audience no less, that you think I'm 
>> in some way incompetent. Stop doing that!
> 
> Do you think [snipped]

Threats are wasted here, where there is no possible danger of physical 
retribution.

Don't bother threatening me again.

>> In a place where I didn't look, and where I had no reason to look, 
>> since it's in a completely different section of the API documentation.
> 
> Same page.

"Same page" is a meaningless measure of locality when a single "page" 
may be the equivalent of thirty or forty printed-book pages.

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:30:57 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>>> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I 
>>>> be poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.
>>>
>>> Because Swing is built on top of AWT.
>>>
>>> JComponent inherits Component.  You can't understand JComponent 
>>> without understanding Component.
>>
>> The same mistake you've made several times before. You assume that I 
>> seek to thoroughly understand JComponent. I don't. I seek to use it in 
>> a particular way at this particular time.
> 
> Maybe you should start with some basic OOP.

Maybe you should learn some manners!

> The methods of a parent class is just as relevant for using a class
> as the methods implemented in the sub class.

That depends on whether the parent class was subclassed as a part of the 
data type (X is a special sort of Y) or was subclassed solely for code 
reuse. C++ has the concept of private inheritance; for better or worse, 
Java does not. Delegation should probably be used when the purpose is 
code reuse, but that doesn't mean that this advice is always followed.

>> To whatever extent you waste 
>> their time with irrelevancies and to-you-fascinating side diversions 
>> such as learning the implementation and internals of a Java class in 
>> depth, you are doing them a disservice.
> 
> If you want to decide what type and form of advice you get, then I
> will recommend hiring a consultant - for 200-300 USD/hr such a person
> will provide you with exactly what you want.

What? All I'm asking is that people here be polite and treat me with the 
basic level of respect normally accorded all human beings interacting in 
a civilized society. Are you suggesting that being polite is such an 
onerous burden that politeness should cost actual money? My God!

Martien Verbruggen wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:30:57 -0400,
> 	zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>> If you had looked at the docs you would have seen that the no-arg 
>>> repaint() belongs to Component.
>> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I be 
>> poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.
> 
> In the Java documentation, just after the alphabetical list of methods
> under the heading 'Method Summary', there are lists of all methods that
> are inherited from each of the superclasses.

Yes, albeit hard to read ones; I've noticed.

Did you have some sort of a point here?

> but you should check all the possible lists of methods in
> that documentation.

Even when there are five or six of them like that one, densely packed, 
with dozens of entries each, and virtually unreadable? A tidy grid with 
down-then-across alphabetic order would have been a better design 
choice, though still uncomfortably reminiscent of such old-fashioned 
things as looking up names in a phone book.

A more interactive documentation reader might be nice. I've played 
around a bit with Squeak and it has method categories and color-coding 
features in its class browser widget. Something like this in the 
Javadocs for more complex classes and APIs would be great, though it 
would also be too much work to expect anything to happen anytime soon.

I'd suggest an added doc tag, @category name, to put with the @param, 
@throws, etc. tags for methods and even with the @author for classes, 
with any string allowed as the name; methods would be grouped and color 
coded by category in the generated docs, and likewise classes in the 
package overviews, with colors assigned somehow to the distinct category 
names in the same class or package.

Links on class and package pages for each category name occurring 
therein could provide a category-focused view, with a link back to the 
main view. The category-focused view could include showing methods of 
interest to subclassers (generally protected, but public ones to 
override too), methods related to a particular use scenario (e.g. 
user-induced repainting, custom painting, setting preferred dimensions, 
and so forth as categories for JComponent), and the like.

Perhaps allowing a method to be in multiple categories would be useful. 
The same public method might be a likely target for subclasses to 
override usefully as well as having a particular category of use. Better 
might be to have an additional tag, @overridetarget or similarly, and an 
additional view that specifically focuses on protected and 
@overridetarget methods and protected fields.

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:49:09 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>>> It isn't. However, nobody in this thread has done such a thing (at 
>>>> least, not yet). You have claimed otherwise, but your claim was a lie.
>>>
>>>> It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()" [...]
>>>
>>> What part about "It looks like the API is missing a no-arg repaint()" 
>>> is not a claim that what you were looking for doesn't exist?
>>
>> It's a claim that what I was looking for doesn't exist IN THAT 
>> ALPHABETIC LIST OF JCOMPONENT METHODS.
>>
>> It turns out to exist, SOMEWHERE ELSE.
> 
> Is it too much to assume that people read all the relevant
> sections of a page ?

It is not too much to assume that people read all of the 
OBVIOUSLY-RELEVANT sections of a page, no, particularly the main 
alphabetic method listing.

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>> Call repaint() and come back with a better attitude when it doesn't 
>>> work.
>>
>> My attitude is fine.
> 
> Have you tried counting opinions on that ?

Nope. Not interested. This is a technical discussion newsgroup, not a 
popularity contest, anyway.

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>> You can get as mad as you want but people are really trying to help you.
>>
>> That's not what bothers me. It's that they are often remarkably 
>> unsuccessful at SUCCEEDING that bothers me, and in fairly silly ways. 
>> For example, if you know, for sure, the exact answer to the question, 
>> and you don't include it in your response, well, that's just plain silly!
> 
> In this group people have some expectations about the posters
> of questions.

Define "people". What is it with you and Peter and pretending that your 
personal opinions or expectations somehow have extra weight or authority 
than, say, mine do? You are just people, same as I am, and last I 
checked this is an unmoderated newsgroup. You're my equals, not my 
superiors. You are certainly not imbued with any sort of official 
authority to dictate some sort of "standard" set of opinions or 
expectations on behalf of every single other person who may read or 
write here.

So you'll excuse me if I take any pronouncements along the theme of 
"people expect X", "this group thinks you should Y", "we insist that you 
research stuff to depth Z", and so forth with grains of salt roughly the 
size of Lake Okeechobee, mmmkay?

Really, those sorts of things should have the pronoun "I" in place of 
vague (or speaking-for-everyone arrogance) references to some mysterious 
"people" or "we" or suchlike.

YOU have some expectations about the posters of questions. But you 
really should not presume to speak on behalf of everyone else in the 
universe!

> Those begging to learn Java or learn programming should find
> groups better suited for that.

And I am not one of these. I just had one narrowly specific question 
about an aspect of Swing about which I found the docs to be less than 
100% clear.

If you don't like that, well, tough. Ignore my question and move on. 
This is an unmoderated group; things will sometimes appear in it that 
you don't like, and it behooves you to be more tolerant of such events. 
You have the ability to mark something read without actually reading it. 
You have resort to a killfile. Not everything one dislikes needs to be 
responded to with criticism. (Though outright rudeness and bad-faith 
behavior like I've seen from you and Peter sure does.)

>> you reply not with what I ask for but with your own 
>> mixture of suspicions, idle questions, and sometimes outright insults.
> 
> That is a typical mistake among new programmers.

No, it is a typical mistake among you and Peter and perhaps a few other 
people here.

> You really don't want to

I will decide what I do or don't want to do, you arrogant little prick!

I have already explained exactly why I need to explicitly repaint my 
subclassed list control sometimes. I should not have had to; I am not 
under any obligation to justify my design choices to arrogant little 
twerps on Usenet. However you have made it quite clear that you are not 
only going to be hostile to me, but publicly deride me as a Bad 
Programmer(tm), if I do NOT justify my design choices to you.

In short, you are actually EXTORTING such justifications from me by 
actually THREATENING TO HARM MY REPUTATION if I DON'T do so.

Do you realize how ridiculous, arrogant, and nasty such behavior is???

Now read my lips: The people posting questions here are, by and large, 
adults, capable of making their own decisions and choices, and if they 
want outside advice on any particular such, they will ask for it; they 
are not small children and you are not parents that need to give them 
guidance lest they step on broken glass, not wear their helmets, or 
what-have-you.

Let go of that paternalistic (and consequently, to adults rude, 
condescending, and arrogant!) attitude and approach this as an 
interaction among equals, adult human beings that are all equal before 
the law (and all equal in an unmoderated newsgroup). Take questions at 
face value unless there is clear evidence that someone is not acting in 
good faith. Assume we're clueful and not Java newbies (even if new to 
the newsgroup!) unless PROVEN otherwise, and then just ignore those 
people after telling them to go to cljh.

Following the above recommendations will result in a MUCH more congenial 
atmosphere around here, and as a side benefit will push the ACTUAL 
clueless newbs over to the appropriate newsgroup in a more polite way 
than by making them feel unwelcome here by being actively rude and 
hostile to them (and, worse, to everyone you merely SUSPECT, often 
wrongly, of being one).

> This is a forum where you get the best advice whether you want
> it or not.

You arrogant little jerk.

And you have paid the price for your arrogance, and that is BEING WRONG 
IN PUBLIC. I have explained why I need to explicitly call repaint for my 
list subclass. I have explained that there is nothing whatsoever wrong 
in my design. (Indeed, it is now tested and working, and thank you very 
much for the vote of frigging confidence! It also has a nice and clean 
interface, surprisingly enough to you I'm sure.) You thought I really 
needed to do something different from explicitly calling repaint, but 
you thought wrong! And now you get to have your face rubbed in that, in 
public, all because you were so arrogant, rude, and condescending.

If you'd assumed that I knew what I was doing until proven otherwise 
(which, in my case, would be "never"), then perhaps you wouldn't have 
stepped in it.

But it's too late now.

>> JComponent has no no-arg repaint() method save, according to another 
>> post to this thread, one it inherits from java.awt.Component. Of 
>> course, since I was not looking at the AWT docs, only JList and 
>> JComponent, and expecting anything generally useful for Swing 
>> components to be in the latter in particular, I didn't know about it 
>> earlier.
> 
> It is on the JComponent document page as well.

It is LINKED FROM the JComponent document page, though not anywhere 
where it's very easy to find by a quick visual check for 
relevant-looking method descriptions.

(Arne has some nasty rude and condescending suggestions after this 
point, but I have trimmed them without dignifying them with a detailed 
response. It is likely that Arne would have found my suggestions to be 
anatomically impossible anyway.)

>> Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my previous post to this 
>> thread. I have not finished the component and begun testing it yet. 
>> When I do, I will of course observe normal Swing thread-safety 
>> procedures and avoid doing long tasks on the EDT.
> 
> I suggest you do it right the first time.

And of course I did; the main methods for my test cases look like this:

public static void main (String[] args) {
     SwingUtilities.invokeAndWait(new Runnable() {
         ...
     });
}

Not a blamed thing except for the creation of a Runnable and the calling 
of a SwingUtilities method occurring on any OTHER thread than the EDT.

I DO know what I am doing, whether you choose to believe that or not.

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> You're looking for a method to get a JComponent to repaint. I don't know 
> about you, but I consider repainting to be a core widget action. That 
> means I will look first at the root of the widget hierarchy, which is 
> obviously Component (JComponent is only the root of the lightweight 
> hierarchy).

You are approaching the search with a detailed knowledge of Swing 
internals and design decisions. You are not approaching it from the 
perspective of a user of Swing that is more concerned with doing useful 
stuff with it than with knowing its in-depth implementation, history, 
and so forth.

In particular, I don't think of a "widget hierarchy" and a separate 
"lightweight hierarchy"; I think of AWT and Swing, and consider Swing's 
borrowing of various AWT things to be code reuse and avoiding 
reinventing the wheel, to the extent that I consider it at all. 
JComponent is the root of the Swing component hierarchy, as far as I am 
concerned (and as far as the docs and tutorial are concerned, too), and 
though it inherits Component, this seems to be more of a historical 
artifact than anything else.

It is unfortunate that it relies on Component to provide some of its 
interface instead of overriding those methods (even with just a call to 
super!) still relevant to Swing JComponents so that they appear in the 
main listing of JComponent methods.

> Also, if you examine the basic structure of the AWT and Swing methods, 
> you will find LARGE numbers of overloads, and especially methods that do 
> fair amount of method wrapping (i.e. A is really a wrapper around B with 
> a bit more magic involved).

This sort of wrapping was exactly at issue here, as I was unsure which 
level of wrapping around the repaint was best just to make an unresized 
component with possibly-resized internal bits repaint itself in its 
entirety.

This fact, that I was not unsure how to repaint at all but how BEST to 
repaint, with what level of wrapping, in a particular situation, seems 
to keep getting lost in all of this needless and inexplicable acrimony.

> Looking for methods only in a leaf class is not going to be complete.

JComponent looks a lot more like a root than it does like a leaf to the 
typical user of JComponent.

The problem isn't even that your perspective differs from mine. It is 
that you (collective "you", referring to nearly everyone in this thread 
except for me and Daniele) arrogantly presume that anyone whose 
perspective differs from yours is defective, ignorant, stupid, or some 
such epithet, and take paints to make your opinion clear to the general 
public!

Daniele's response to my original post is the model to follow in your 
future interactions with people who ask a question here. (Roedy's, a 
thinly-disguised promotion of his own web site with little other 
content, certainly is not -- I didn't find the stuff at his website 
especially useful, anyway, except to indicate that revalidate wasn't the 
way to go, and besides, I prefer direct answers to breadcrumb trails 
when I have questions.)

>> Yes, there is, and his name is Peter Duniho. Cursing: "RTFM", at least 
>> twice.
> 
> Actually, some people interpret "RTFM" as "Read The Fine Manual", i.e., 
> look at the nuances deep in the text.

I'm not interested in your attempts to make excuses for someone who can, 
if he so chooses, speak for himself, and who seems to have no excuse for 
his uncouth and unpleasant public behavior anyway.

>> The sets of people that they've called rude have a fair degree of 
>> overlap, too, particularly tending to include Andreas, Andrew, Arne, 
>> and Lew.

And, checking the list again, you.

> Account for the fact that Andrew and Lew are in what I would consider 
> the top tier of posters

Excuse me? What the heck feudal society did you log in from? Where I 
live, we hold various truths to be self-evident, among them that all men 
are created equal and have certain inalienable rights. (Unfortunately, 
"polite and respectful treatment by others, absent prior hostile 
interpersonal history" does not seem to be enumerated among the OFFICIAL 
list of such rights.)

As far as I am concerned, there are no "tiers" here, with some king or 
emperor or other such poobah at the top, dukes and earls on the next 
level down, and lowly peasants at the bottom, with rudeness toward those 
below expected and encouraged and brownnosing toward those above 
demanded with a great big Or Else.

There are just people here, and some of them are more knowledgeable 
about some things than others, others are more knowledgeable about some 
other things than yet others, and yes, some are quite evidently more 
polite, politic, circumspect, and civil than others too.

If there is to be any basis here for a class division, it should really 
be the latter distinction, with the sometimes-gratuitously-rude people 
considered to be low-class and subject to lesser consideration and 
poorer treatment by the polite majority.

But even that is too classist for my tastes.

> For comparison, I would place myself no higher than the third tier

EVER so humble, arencha?

> Those who respond the most tend to be those who get the most mud 
> flung at them.

Some people seem to get more than others. Patricia and Daniele seem 
knowledgeable and astute, and seem to post a lot of answers, but I don't 
notice much mud being flung at either. It looks like perhaps there is 
something else that affects the amount of mud thrown at the major 
question-answering personages here, besides their level of knowledge or 
posting frequency. I wonder what that could be?

(It is certainly interesting that there is a correlation between female 
sex and more decorum and civility. I'm guessing this is a socialized, 
rather than a genetic, difference in behavior. Women are still raised to 
be polite in public. Men ... aren't so much, these days, it seems. Men 
also seem to be much more socialized towards a notion of behavior that 
seems to be describable with "be deferent to those above you, arrogant 
and uncharitable to those below you, and always know your place and put 
others in theirs" and generally pecking-order oriented instead of "treat 
everyone with equal respect".)

> Posters of... controversy probably get more, though 
> (think XahLee, Twisted, or JSH).

Dissension should be tolerated in a free and just society. One would 
hope that an unmoderated newsgroup would be a paragon of such, lacking 
as it does anyone with actual authority backed by actual ability to 
forcibly impose his will upon others. But oh, no ...

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> It is in the documentation.
> 
> You just need to read it.

I DID read it.

Well, not the WHOLE THING...

zerg wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> You're looking for a method to get a JComponent to repaint. I don't 
>> know about you, but I consider repainting to be a core widget action. 
>> That means I will look first at the root of the widget hierarchy, 
>> which is obviously Component (JComponent is only the root of the 
>> lightweight hierarchy).
> 
> You are approaching the search with a detailed knowledge of Swing 
> internals and design decisions. You are not approaching it from the 
> perspective of a user of Swing that is more concerned with doing useful 
> stuff with it than with knowing its in-depth implementation, history, 
> and so forth.

This is not "detailed knowledge." The Javadocs themselves present this 
simple nugget of information: "The Swing classes are built on top of the 
AWT architecture."

> It is unfortunate that it relies on Component to provide some of its 
> interface instead of overriding those methods (even with just a call to 
> super!) still relevant to Swing JComponents so that they appear in the 
> main listing of JComponent methods.

That makes JComponent unmaintainable, if it has to override all of the 
methods, and is bad practice to begin with and possibly destructive to 
performance improvements at runtime. Also, by that point, you might as 
well not make JComponent inherit from Component.

Inheritance is not done willy-nilly. The fact that JComponent inherits 
from Container and Component is important, even if you know nothing 
about them. OOP tells you that a JComponent is a Component, and, more 
importantly, that JComponent will enhance the capabilities of Component. 
Which means that if you can't find something in JComponent, you might 
try looking in superclasses.

To give another example, using the DOM. I have a text node. I want to 
know what the text inside is. I look on the interface. No method 
"getText()". Does that mean that there is no way to do this? No! Its 
parent is character data, which has the method "getData()". What if I 
want to find which element it is contained in? I have to go back up to 
DOM nodes and use the hierarchy information there. In short: if class A 
inherits from class B, you'll need to look in both to find useful methods.

> This fact, that I was not unsure how to repaint at all but how BEST to 
> repaint, with what level of wrapping, in a particular situation, seems 
> to keep getting lost in all of this needless and inexplicable acrimony.

Ever read the Java Tutorials on Sun's website? They cover this sort of 
stuff.

> The problem isn't even that your perspective differs from mine. It is 
> that you (collective "you", referring to nearly everyone in this thread 
> except for me and Daniele) arrogantly presume that anyone whose 
> perspective differs from yours is defective, ignorant, stupid, or some 
> such epithet, and take paints to make your opinion clear to the general 
> public!

Slander and libel will get you nowhere fast. By now, you're resisting a 
point several others have made: looking at *only* JComponent for 
documentation is not sufficient. What you're arguing is that the 
subclass should reimplement all the methods just so that some lazy 
person doesn't have to look through a few more pages of documentation, 
which is a very, very untenable position.
> (Roedy's, a 
> thinly-disguised promotion of his own web site with little other 
> content, certainly is not

I would not call it a "thinly-disguised promotion" of his website. I 
find that it is an excellent resource for neophytes, especially since it 
answers almost all of the basic questions that come up.

>>> The sets of people that they've called rude have a fair degree of 
>>> overlap, too, particularly tending to include Andreas, Andrew, Arne, 
>>> and Lew.
> 
> And, checking the list again, you.

I come on there only because I have a very thick skin and am willing to 
point out criticism to those who have little respect to it.

> Excuse me? What the heck feudal society did you log in from? Where I 
> live, we hold various truths to be self-evident, among them that all men 
> are created equal and have certain inalienable rights.

"... that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, 
that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, 
deriving their just power from the consent of the governed; that 
whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is 
the right of the people to alter or abolish it."

At least quote the whole thing, if you insist on having such an 
Amerocentric world view. Also, keep in mind the actual intent of that 
text there.

> As far as I am concerned, there are no "tiers" here, with some king or 

It's not a feudal tier, it's a tier in terms of posters. I was pointing 
out that you're more likely to find a posting by Lew than you are to 
find one by yourself here. It was not in any form meant to imply a 
hierarchy of control or responsibility, etc.

>> For comparison, I would place myself no higher than the third tier
> 
> EVER so humble, arencha?

No, I just don't post terribly often, only once or twice a day at most.

>> Posters of... controversy probably get more, though (think XahLee, 
>> Twisted, or JSH).
> 
> Dissension should be tolerated in a free and just society. One would 
> hope that an unmoderated newsgroup would be a paragon of such, lacking 
> as it does anyone with actual authority backed by actual ability to 
> forcibly impose his will upon others. But oh, no ...

And another case where you've missed the point. XahLee X-posted rather 
off-topic messages across several disparate newsgroups, Twisted 
embroiled the newsgroup into a rather idealistic view of economics and 
related topics, and JSH resisted rather strongly the idea that his 
algorithms were incorrect. Many here would consider these three posters 
to all be trolls (a moniker that is undeserved in JSH's case, IMO), and 
I was trying to be polite in referring to them.

Sure dissension should be tolerated, but this is a forum for discussing 
Java, not discussing the flaws in patent law.

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> You are approaching the search with a detailed knowledge of Swing 
>> internals and design decisions. You are not approaching it from the 
>> perspective of a user of Swing that is more concerned with doing 
>> useful stuff with it than with knowing its in-depth implementation, 
>> history, and so forth.

(Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> It is unfortunate that it relies on Component to provide some of its 
>> interface instead of overriding those methods (even with just a call 
>> to super!) still relevant to Swing JComponents so that they appear in 
>> the main listing of JComponent methods.

(Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

I don't suppose you read the part of my earlier post where I mentioned 
that inheritance of B from A can mean one or both of TWO things?

* B is a kind of A
* B has reused code from A

Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of AWT 
component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an old, 
AWT-only Java deployment?) it seems questionable to expect me to look 
there. Particularly when it means looking in another package entirely, 
and at almost the opposite end of the alphabetic listing of packages to 
boot.

All of which ignores the fact that I simply looked in the most obvious 
place, the alphabetic listing of methods with detailed descriptions, as 
seemed reasonable. None of the information you're discussing is in that 
particular place to lead me on anywhere else in turn.

>> This fact, that I was not unsure how to repaint at all but how BEST to 
>> repaint, with what level of wrapping, in a particular situation, seems 
>> to keep getting lost in all of this needless and inexplicable acrimony.
> 
> Ever read the Java Tutorials on Sun's website? They cover this sort of 
> stuff.

The Java Tutorial did not go into any depth regarding painting, that I 
saw, save that it had a section on custom painting that is clearly 
targeted at people overriding paintComponent to draw novel things on 
their components.

>> The problem isn't even that your perspective differs from mine. It is 
>> that you (collective "you", referring to nearly everyone in this 
>> thread except for me and Daniele) arrogantly presume that anyone whose 
>> perspective differs from yours is defective, ignorant, stupid, or some 
>> such epithet, and take paints to make your opinion clear to the 
>> general public!
> 
> Slander and libel will get you nowhere fast.

I have done nothing of the sort. It is YOU who have engaged in 
defamation, by repeatedly insinuating in public that there is something 
wrong with me!

> By now, you're resisting a point

What I am "resisting" is you and your buddies' hostile 
mischaracterizations of me! Necessarily that also means resisting any 
so-called "point" any of you try to make the accepting of which would 
imply that I was also accepting your judgment of me.

Because I do NOT accept your judgment of me, or even accept your 
implicit claim to have any kind of authority to stand in judgment of me 
WITH.

> What you're arguing is that the 
> subclass should reimplement all the methods

No. I suggested that when a subclass had as many methods as JComponent, 
and its ancestors have as many methods as JComponent's, and there is a 
group of related methods (e.g. sharing the same name), that group should 
be made to appear all in one place in the documentation instead of 
ending up scattered all over the damn place. I noted that ONE METHOD of 
doing so without changing the way the doc tools work would be to 
override such methods with just a call to super (NOT reimplement the 
functionality!) so the documentation generator includes it with its 
relatives in the alphabetic listing, with a copy of the doc comment from 
the superclass.


> some lazy person

I grow increasingly weary of being gratuitously insulted by you and your 
friends. If you don't have anything nice to say about me, please don't 
say anything about me at all.

>> (Roedy's, a thinly-disguised promotion of his own web site with little 
>> other content, certainly is not
> 
> I would not call it a "thinly-disguised promotion" of his website.

Really? He basically posted "The answers are here: http://etc etc etc" 
and it was quite clearly his own web site.

Much better would have been "The answer is X. More on this topic can be 
found here, if you're interested in the future: http://etc etc etc" 
which would give something useful WITHOUT it being conditioned on 
bumping his hit counter FIRST.

>> And, checking the list again, you.
> 
> I come on there only because I have a very thick skin and am willing to 
> point out criticism to those who have little respect to it.

Please speak in grammatical sentences of English.

I don't care for your attitude and, in particular, your tendency to 
sling mud at people at the proverbial drop of a hat.

>> Excuse me? What the heck feudal society did you log in from? Where I 
>> live, we hold various truths to be self-evident, among them that all 
>> men are created equal and have certain inalienable rights.

(Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> As far as I am concerned, there are no "tiers" here, with some king or 
> 
> It's not a feudal tier, it's a tier in terms of posters.

It is, in this context, at least implicitly a pecking order that 
determines who gets to dish out gratuitous abuse and who is expected to 
accept gratuitous abuse without complaining.

I do not recognize any such pecking order as having any kind of 
legitimacy whatsoever in this UNMODERATED newsgroup.

> I was pointing out that you're more likely to find a posting by Lew
> than you are to find one by yourself here. It was not in any form
> meant to imply a hierarchy of control or responsibility, etc.

Oh, really? In the middle of a discussion of who is prone to dishing out 
abuse? That would be a rather odd swerve of topic, especially as 
post-count is apropos of nothing (though try telling that to the 
developers of phpBB, sigh).

>>> Posters of... controversy probably get more, though (think XahLee, 
>>> Twisted, or JSH).
>>
>> Dissension should be tolerated in a free and just society. One would 
>> hope that an unmoderated newsgroup would be a paragon of such, lacking 
>> as it does anyone with actual authority backed by actual ability to 
>> forcibly impose his will upon others. But oh, no ...
> 
> And another case where you've missed the

I will repeat this again, and I hope that it actually sinks in this time 
and that I will NOT have to repeat it any more.

I have missed nothing.
I have not made any mistakes.
I am not lazy.
I am not stupid.
I am not any of those other things that you and your friends have been 
insinuating and sometimes outright asserting publicly.
YOU and your friends are the ones who are in the wrong, morally, here. 
You are the ones whose behavior is reprehensible. You are the ones who 
stooped first to name-calling, the ones who first used (indirectly) the 
F-word, and the ones who first accused other people of tort offenses.
By any reasonable measure, you are the ones that need to back down and 
apologize for this outrageous behavior!

> XahLee X-posted rather off-topic messages across several disparate
> newsgroups

Then you should call him on violating the newsgroup's charter. That his 
opinions might be controversial as well is entirely beside the point.

> Twisted embroiled the newsgroup into a rather idealistic view of
> economics and related topics

Then you should call him on violating the newsgroup's charter. That his 
opinions might be controversial as well is entirely beside the point.

> and JSH resisted rather strongly the idea that his algorithms were
> incorrect.

Then you should point out the flaws in his algorithms, but if he holds 
controversial opinions or views, those are entirely beside the point.

If any of the three is a persistent thorn in your side, then you should 
killfile the thorn.

Hurling abuse at people in public can not serve any useful function and 
will generally only make things worse. Making things personal is never 
the way to get what you want from someone; it makes them resentful and 
likely to resist your wishes purely out of spite. It may also make it 
into a matter of honor for them, where they cannot back down or concede 
your valid points without also implicitly accepting the personal insults 
that you have mixed with those points, and they are understandably 
unwilling to do the latter.

In simpler language, even in the case that somebody actually does need 
educating, whether in matters of netiquette or matters of Java, you 
cannot educate them by browbeating them and all you will get by publicly 
humiliating them is that they "play hooky" by never listening to a word 
of yours again.

This is not an environment where the use of negative reinforcement (such 
as the equivalent of telling someone to wear a dunce cap and go sit in 
the corner) is going to be useful. Everyone can just get up and leave, 
or killfile you. There's no lock on the door, no hall monitor, and no 
threat of parental wrath to hold over your "students" to coerce them 
into staying in class and accepting the punishments you mete out.

The only method that will work is the carrot. The stick WON'T work.

Be polite and helpful with any guidance that you may have to offer, and 
you will find your efforts far more successful, and your "students" far 
happier, and your own esteem with them far greater, than otherwise.

The other thing you may wish to recall is that we are adults here and we 
may disagree with you, and if we do we may argue with you. This is not 
cheekiness or talking back, the way you might be inclined to perceive 
it. It is simply debate and dialogue and discussion, precisely the 
purpose of Usenet.

Respond to it not with nastiness but with an open ear. Listen to people 
when they object to something you've said and give specific, detailed 
reasons why they think you may have over-generalized or whatever. It's 
entirely possible that they actually have a point that you had not 
previously considered. You certainly can't be a good "teacher" if you 
are, yourself, utterly unwilling to learn!

zerg wrote:
> I don't suppose you read the part of my earlier post where I mentioned 
> that inheritance of B from A can mean one or both of TWO things?
> 
> * B is a kind of A
> * B has reused code from A

No. This is where you are wrong. Read ANY book on OOP design. There is 
one thing that is repeated in all of them: inheritance represents an 
"is-a" relationship. It has no other meaning. If you interpret it 
differently, you're doing something wrong.

If you want to reuse code, use composition. Don't hijack one of the most 
fundamental principles of OOP.

> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of AWT 
> component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an old, 
> AWT-only Java deployment?) it seems questionable to expect me to look 
> there.

A Swing component is an AWT component. Put a JButton on an AWT frame. It 
works.

> All of which ignores the fact that I simply looked in the most obvious 
> place, the alphabetic listing of methods with detailed descriptions, as 
> seemed reasonable. None of the information you're discussing is in that 
> particular place to lead me on anywhere else in turn.

And I'm telling you that inheritance indicates another obvious place to 
find methods. Because it represents an is-a relationship.

> The Java Tutorial did not go into any depth regarding painting, that I 
> saw, save that it had a section on custom painting that is clearly 
> targeted at people overriding paintComponent to draw novel things on 
> their components.

Perhaps it's changed since I read it 4 years ago, but I know they 
covered painting and updating in depth at one point.

> Really? He basically posted "The answers are here: http://etc etc etc" 
> and it was quite clearly his own web site.
> 
> Much better would have been "The answer is X. More on this topic can be 
> found here, if you're interested in the future: http://etc etc etc" 
> which would give something useful WITHOUT it being conditioned on 
> bumping his hit counter FIRST.

"Give a man a fish, and he'll be fed for a day. Teach him to fish, and 
he'll never be hungry again." Similarly, it is often better to point 
someone to the core resources rather than having them come back day-in, 
day-out for every little piece of advice. Why do you think RTFM and GIYF 
are so common responses? Roedy was just pointing neophytes to his 
database of informational nuggets that is rather complete and concise.

> (Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

FWIW, it's that kind of stuff that's going to tick people off. I try to 
save space: if I don't consider it worthwhile to respond to, I don't 
respond to it. The three cases where you removed my responses without 
complaints were, in order, a rebuttal of your opinion that something was 
"detailed knowledge," my reasoning why JComponents don't override all 
methods from Components (another rebuttal), and pointing out subtly that 
your implied interpretation of a paraphrase of a common quote did not 
match what the quote was trying to convey in context.

Perhaps I was little overboard in the last one, but the first two share 
one thing in common: they were quotes criticizing your views. If you 
read Twisted's first posts, you'll find the characteristic that drew 
people to ire the quickest was his treatment of most criticism in 
similar manners.

> It is, in this context, at least implicitly a pecking order that 
> determines who gets to dish out gratuitous abuse and who is expected to 
> accept gratuitous abuse without complaining.

No it's not. It's me pointing out that your absolute measurements are 
inaccurate. If person A dishes out advice to 100 people a day, and 20 of 
those are then replied with accusations of rudeness, and person B dishes 
out to 10 a day, 10 of which have accusations of rudeness, does that 
mean that person A is ruder? No. You counted the numbers absolutely, I 
was pointing out that the people in question are regular posters, so 
that will skew absolute numbers. Show me *relative* numbers.

> I have missed nothing.
> I have not made any mistakes.

Let me count:
1. You characterized people's attributes in relative orderings based on 
absolute numbers.
2. You believe that inheritance does not represent an is-a relationship, 
in violation of every text on OOP I have ever seen.
3. You have marked rebuttals of your views as "not worthwhile."

Everyone makes mistakes. I make them. That you have not made any is 
about as believable as the Flat Earth hypothesis.

>> and JSH resisted rather strongly the idea that his algorithms were
>> incorrect.
> 
> Then you should point out the flaws in his algorithms, but if he holds 
> controversial opinions or views, those are entirely beside the point.

One of the definitions of controversy: strife. Anyone who causes strife 
-- by fragrantly violating the charter, by repeatedly ignoring the flaws 
of posted algorithms -- is a poster of controversy. It does not 
necessarily mean that his or her views are in distaste with the community.

> Hurling abuse at people in public can not serve any useful function and 
> will generally only make things worse.

Let me guess... "do as I say, not as I do?" :-)

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> I don't suppose you read the part of my earlier post where I mentioned 
>> that inheritance of B from A can mean one or both of TWO things?
>>
>> * B is a kind of A
>> * B has reused code from A
> 
> No.

Yes.

> If you want to reuse code, use composition. Don't hijack one of the most 
> fundamental principles of OOP.

I wholeheartedly agree, but others don't always follow that advice and I 
take that into consideration when using others' classes.

>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of AWT 
>> component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an old, 
>> AWT-only Java deployment?) it seems questionable to expect me to look 
>> there.

(Joshua has nothing worthwhile to say here.)

I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java deployment?

>> All of which ignores the fact that I simply looked in the most obvious 
>> place, the alphabetic listing of methods with detailed descriptions, 
>> as seemed reasonable. None of the information you're discussing is in 
>> that particular place to lead me on anywhere else in turn.
> 
> And I'm telling you

I do not care what you are telling me. At this point, my objective is 
solely to get disentangled from this pointless thread while publicly 
correcting the various inaccurate misrepresentations people are making 
about my character.

All you do by posting anything that implies that there is something 
wrong with me is giving me more work to do. You accomplish nothing else. 
Stop hassling me, and stop mistakenly thinking that this has anything to 
do with Java anymore. It stopped being about Java the instant somebody 
made it about me. Now it's personal and my objective is thus to prevent 
you or anyone else from convincing other people to start believing your 
unpleasant opinions about me. Your posting anything at all to this 
thread, now, is working at cross-purposes.

>> The Java Tutorial did not go into any depth regarding painting, that I 
>> saw, save that it had a section on custom painting that is clearly 
>> targeted at people overriding paintComponent to draw novel things on 
>> their components.
> 
> Perhaps it's changed since I read it 4 years ago, but I know they 
> covered painting and updating in depth at one point.

You are probably thinking of the paintComponent coverage.

I looked at the discussion of JComponent at the tutorial and there are 
only a couple of quick blurbs about painting in the API-referencing 
section at the end of that page. The only thing made really clear there, 
in connection with my original query, being that revalidate wasn't the 
method to use.

But my original query isn't the issue anymore. That problem was long 
since solved. The only problem remaining is that people keep badmouthing 
me in public and making nasty insinuations that I must keep correcting. 
I find it tiresome. Please stop.

>> Much better would have been "The answer is X. More on this topic can 
>> be found here, if you're interested in the future: http://etc etc etc" 
>> which would give something useful WITHOUT it being conditioned on 
>> bumping his hit counter FIRST.
> 
> "Give a man a fish, and he'll be fed for a day. Teach him to fish, and 
> he'll never be hungry again." Similarly, it is often better to point 
> someone to the core resources rather than

No, as well as. Teach someone to fish while he's starving and he dies 
before he can put any of your teachings into practice. Not a very smart 
strategy.

Also, you should not presume to decide what is best for adults. Adults 
are capable of making their own decisions as to whether they want a fish 
or a fishing lesson (or both). It is arrogant and rude of you to presume 
to know better than they which one they should have.

> Why do you think RTFM and GIYF are so common responses?

Because pricks are so common in newsgroups. "If you don't have anything 
nice to say, don't say anything at all" is a piece of advice that you 
would do well to familiarize yourself with.

> Roedy was just pointing neophytes to his database

No, he was actually pointing a NON-neophyte. See, this is another way in 
which you and those like you keep erring -- you assume that everyone but 
you is a neophyte, or perhaps that everyone new to the NEWSGROUP is a 
neophyte WITH JAVA.

And as usual, when you make random assumptions like that, sooner or 
later one of them comes back to bite you in the butt!

>> (Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)
> 
> FWIW, it's that kind of stuff that's going to tick people off.

It's called "getting a taste of your own medicine". If you don't enjoy 
it, stop dishing it out!

> The three cases where you removed my responses without complaints
> were, in order, a rebuttal of your

No. Nothing that I have said is wrong, and therefore you have no valid 
"rebuttals" of anything that I have said. Anything that you claim is 
such therefore is "nothing worthwhile" for the simple reason that it is 
factually false.

As such, it is certainly not worthy of being repeated. It should be 
allowed to die the ignominious death in obscurity that it deserves.

> (another rebuttal)

See above. It is incorrect to even try to rebut me. Don't.

> and pointing out subtly that

you have an unkind opinion of me? I'd prefer that you not point that out 
at all. Especially since by now it is abundantly clear to everyone that 
is reading this. There is no reason for you to continue to repeat your 
nasty insinuations about me. So go away!

> Perhaps I was little overboard in the last one, but the first two share 
> one thing in common: they were quotes criticizing your views.

Exactly. That is why they are not worthwhile and why you should not have 
written them in the first place. Attacking and antagonizing me will not 
get you what you want. It will only get my back up and cause me to 
dismiss anything ELSE that you might have to say as suspect, since it 
will cause me to question your motives.

You are acting in bad faith.

If you really want to "educate" me about something, I suggest the following:

1. Don't do it in public! Suggesting in front of a worldwide audience 
that someone is an ignoramus will not make that person very willing to 
listen to anything that you have to say. In fact it will make that 
person want to somehow shut you up before you start doing real damage to 
others' perceptions of them. And then you obviously won't be able to 
"educate" them.

2. Be polite! Don't accuse them of things, don't lambaste them, don't 
cast aspersions, don't insinuate, don't personally attack, and don't 
dismiss what they say out-of-hand. Most certainly don't condescend to them.

3. If they demonstrate a clear lack of interest in what you have to say 
despite these things, then simply move on. Adults will make their own 
decisions as to whether they think you have something useful to tell 
them. Some will decide that you don't. You may think they're wrong. 
Heck, they may actually BE wrong. But it isn't your decision. They are 
adults. It is their decision. Presuming to decide for them, or that you 
know better than they do what their own needs are, when they are over 
the age of 18 is presumptive, arrogant, and extremely rude.

4. Getting in someone's face will NEVER accomplish anything worthwhile.

> If you read Twisted's first posts, you'll find the characteristic
> that drew people to ire the quickest was his treatment of most
> criticism in similar manners.

In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when 
people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well, 
good for him, even if he took it to extremes.

I know, people like you don't like it when someone you browbeat stands 
up to you instead of meekly accepting your judgment of them. Well, 
tough. I don't have much sympathy for you or your kind when you treat 
others in such a manner and then become annoyed that some of them don't 
just lie down and take your abuse.

If you don't like it when that happens, simply DON'T DISH OUT ABUSE.

>> It is, in this context, at least implicitly a pecking order that 
>> determines who gets to dish out gratuitous abuse and who is expected 
>> to accept gratuitous abuse without complaining.
> 
> No

You clearly still have not learned. (See how you like being addressed in 
such a manner!)

Do not respond to my stating a fact by saying "no". It is incorrect, not 
to mention exceedingly rude.

People are being abusive and telling me that my place is to accept, not 
resist, that abuse; and into that context you pop up with some comment 
about how the people dishing out the abuse are in the top "tiers". How 
else did you honestly expect that to be interpreted?

I reject any claim of legitimacy to this abuse-acceptance hierarchy. If 
you abuse me I will respond in kind, by being condescending to you for 
example in much the way you have been condescending toward me. If you 
are polite and friendly, or at worst neutral, I will not be abusive.

I don't care if you think it is my place to meekly accept abuse, and 
yours to dish it out to whomever you please. You are wrong. It is my 
place, and yours, to converse as equals with a common goal in discussing 
Java programming, and to do so in a polite and civil fashion, or to not 
converse at all if one of us for some reason finds this undesirable or 
impossible.

In particular, you will be nice, or at worst neutral, to me or you will 
behave as if I did not exist. If you behave otherwise I will continue to 
contradict you every time you suggest or say something bad about me in 
public and I will continue to heap scorn on you and try to educate you 
in manners. Have I made myself clear?

> It's me pointing out that your absolute measurements are inaccurate.

No. Nothing about me is "inaccurate" and I will not take kindly to any 
further nasty public insinuations to that effect. You will stop 
badmouthing me in public or else. Do I make myself clear?

> You counted the numbers absolutely

How the hell would you know? I didn't tell you anything about exactly 
how I counted the numbers. In fact I did use percentages, rather than 
absolute counts, contrary to your claim here. The names I named are 
those who got a large number of rudeness complaints from multiple people 
relative to the number of posts they made directed at question-askers 
and (to the extent that these didn't overlap) newbies.

>> I have missed nothing.
>> I have not made any mistakes.
> 
> Let me count:

Zero.

> 1. You characterized people's attributes in relative orderings based on 
> absolute numbers.

I did not.

> 2. You believe that inheritance does not represent an is-a relationship

I believe that inheritance usually does, and is best used to, represent 
an is-a relationship, but in actual practice sometimes is (mis)used just 
for code re-use.

> 3. You have marked rebuttals of your views as "not worthwhile."

Because rebuttals of my views ARE "not worthwhile".

If something that I said is a fact, then obviously a rebuttal of it is 
not only "not worthwhile" it is a mistake, if not an outright lie.

If, on the other hand, something that I said is an opinion, then a 
rebuttal of it is simply off-topic here, not to mention can serve no 
useful purpose. (It may very well antagonize me, but that certainly is 
not a useful purpose. Quite the opposite, if it results in a long 
off-topic debate in this newsgroup.)

> Everyone makes mistakes. I make them. That you have not made any is 
> about as believable as the Flat Earth hypothesis.

I said that I have not made any IN THE ASPECTS OF THIS CURRENT PROJECT 
OF MINE THAT HAVE GOTTEN DISCUSSED HERE. And indeed I have not.

Regardless, it is not your place to make that decision on my behalf. I 
will be the sole arbiter of my performance at programming, when 
programming for myself, and my manager will be when I am programming as 
employment. YOU will never be, since your behavior here has convinced me 
to absolutely refuse ever to accept any job position anywhere that would 
put you in the role of being my employer.

If you don't think I'm doing a good job of something, fine -- you're 
welcome to your opinion, just so long as you keep it to yourself.

If you wish to broadcast a public opinion of me, despite my being a 
private individual rather than a public figure or celebrity of any sort, 
or a person in a position of public trust, then I will decide what 
opinion of me you broadcast, and it will be "zerg is a great guy"!

Have I made myself clear NOW?

In simpler language, when I want your public opinion of me, I will give 
it to you.

>>> and JSH resisted rather strongly the idea that his algorithms were
>>> incorrect.
>>
>> Then you should point out the flaws in his algorithms, but if he holds 
>> controversial opinions or views, those are entirely beside the point.
> 
> One of the definitions of controversy: strife. Anyone who causes strife 
> -- by fragrantly violating the charter, by repeatedly ignoring the flaws 
> of posted algorithms -- is a poster of controversy.

But I was using "controversial" to mean "holder of controversial 
opinions and beliefs". This paragraph of yours is, therefore, entirely 
beside the point.

>> Hurling abuse at people in public can not serve any useful function 
>> and will generally only make things worse.
> 
> Let me guess... "do as I say, not as I do?" :-)

No; as I explained above, I respond in kind. I have learned during my 
life that if you always respond nicely even to abuse, people learn that 
you can be abused with impunity, and are ever more abusive; if you 
always respond nastily even to niceness, people learn not to have 
anything to do with you; and therefore that it is better to respond in kind.

In practise, I only tend to respond to abuse with abuse when it has been 
repeated several times despite several polite requests for it to stop.

This serves two purposes. First, people abusing me get several chances 
to change their minds before they get it, and if their abuse was somehow 
an accident they don't get blasted for it (unless they are silly enough 
as to let it happen repeatedly and frequently). Secondly, the history of 
the interaction will invariably show that I was by a significant time 
lag NOT the first to become abusive, and therefore that I hold the moral 
high ground.

Furthermore, I will never escalate. You have been rude and condescending 
to me, and outright accused me several times of various bad things; the 
most I have been to you has been somewhat condescending, with some 
assertions that you were wrong about some things. I have kept it below 
your level (for example, I have not called YOU "lazy" at any point), but 
I have raised it above zero so that you do indeed receive some serious 
negative feedback as long as you continue to act in the antisocial 
manner that you have been doing. The purpose being to give you an 
incentive to stop being rude to people, or at least to stop being rude 
to me, personally.

As for my earlier statement, "hurling abuse at people in public can not 
serve any useful function and will generally only make things worse", 
consider it a bit imprecise, and amended with "(except in response to 
persistent abuse)".

I hope this has cleared up any confusion that you may have had.

If you have any better suggestions as to how to deal with abusive 
treatment from others without simply taking it lying down and thus 
inviting more and worse abuse but without responding in kind either, 
then I'm all ears.

(Yes, I know one option is simply to ignore the person who started the 
abuse, but that isn't exactly a good idea if they have begun publicly 
spouting nasty opinions of you, because then they'll simply be able to 
continue doing so "behind your back" and get away with it, and THAT 
certainly won't do you any good.)

zerg <zerg@zerg.org> writes:

> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>> You are approaching the search with a detailed knowledge of Swing
>>> internals and design decisions. You are not approaching it from the
>>> perspective of a user of Swing that is more concerned with doing
>>> useful stuff with it than with knowing its in-depth implementation,
>>> history, and so forth.
>
> (Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)
>
>>> It is unfortunate that it relies on Component to provide some of
>>> its interface instead of overriding those methods (even with just a
>>> call to super!) still relevant to Swing JComponents so that they
>>> appear in the main listing of JComponent methods.
>
> (Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)
>
> I don't suppose you read the part of my earlier post where I mentioned
> that inheritance of B from A can mean one or both of TWO things?
>
> * B is a kind of A
> * B has reused code from A
>
> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of AWT
> component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an old,
> AWT-only Java deployment?) 

In an AWT Frame? Yes. It IS A button in the AWT sense.
You could easily have tested this yourself. Example:
---
public class AwtSwingTest implements ActionListener {
    public static void main(String[] args) {
        Frame frame = new Frame();
        //Button button = new Button("Click me");
        JButton button = new JButton("Click me");
        button.addActionListener(new AwtSwingTest());
        frame.add(button);
        frame.setSize(100, 100);
        frame.setVisible(true);
    }
    public void actionPerformed(ActionEvent e) {
        System.out.println("Button clicked");
        System.exit(0);
    }
}
---

Would it work in an AWT-only setting? Obviously not, the class wouldn't
be there. 

The Swing components are built on top of the AWT system, using IS-A
inheritance to extend the capabilities of the corresponding AWT
components. The entire JAVA system, with both AWT and Swing, is a 
consistent system where Swing components naturally inherit from 
AWT components. This is the system you are using, and in that, with
the traditional JavaDoc style, the documentation page of a Swing class
only explain the changes from its super-class.

> it seems questionable to expect me to look there.

Well, know you know.

> Particularly when it means looking in another package entirely,
> and at almost the opposite end of the alphabetic listing of packages
> to boot.

A superclass is a superclass. What package it is in is not important.

> All of which ignores the fact that I simply looked in the most obvious
> place, the alphabetic listing of methods with detailed descriptions,
> as seemed reasonable. None of the information you're discussing is in
> that particular place to lead me on anywhere else in turn.

True. The way JavaDoc is structured, one needs to know to look at
superclasses manually. 


[about Roedy]
> Really? He basically posted "The answers are here: http://etc etc etc"
> and it was quite clearly his own web site.

True. His way of working appears to be to see a question, and if he
thinks the answer is generally applicable and/or the question is likely
to be asked again, then he writes up the answer on his web page and
gives a link, instead of writing the answer in a message.

> I have missed nothing.
> I have not made any mistakes.

Sorry Paul, I hadn't recognized your twisted writing style before.
Won't bother you again.
/L
-- 
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen
 DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
  'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>>> You can get as mad as you want but people are really trying to help 
>>>> you.
>>>
>>> That's not what bothers me. It's that they are often remarkably 
>>> unsuccessful at SUCCEEDING that bothers me, and in fairly silly ways. 
>>> For example, if you know, for sure, the exact answer to the question, 
>>> and you don't include it in your response, well, that's just plain 
>>> silly!
>>
>> In this group people have some expectations about the posters
>> of questions.
> 
> Define "people". What is it with you and Peter and pretending that your 
> personal opinions or expectations somehow have extra weight or authority 
> than, say, mine do? You are just people, same as I am, and last I 
> checked this is an unmoderated newsgroup. You're my equals, not my 
> superiors. You are certainly not imbued with any sort of official 
> authority to dictate some sort of "standard" set of opinions or 
> expectations on behalf of every single other person who may read or 
> write here.

I hyphenate that you count the numbers of women that think you should
read docs and the numbers that think you do not need to.

It is an observable difficulty that the women in this goo has this
award.

>> Those begging to learn Java or learn programming should find
>> groups better suited for that.
> 
> And I am not one of these.

You dispensable are.

> If you don't like that, well, tough. Ignore my question and move on. 
> This is an unmoderated group;

Unmoderated does not mean that anything is Martian.

>>> That's for the programmer to decide, not you. I know my code far
>>> better than you do, and I don't see why you need to know jack about
>>> it in order to provide a simple, straight answer for a simple
>>> question. If I had a design-related conundrum I would ask a
>>> design-related question. When I have a "how to do X very specific
>>> thing with Y" type of question, and ask it, I want an equally
>>> specific answer, not some kind of inquest based on some suspicion,
>>> based on very little evidence, that there's some sort of problem with
>>> my design. I ask for what I want, but you reply not with what I want
>>> but with your own mixture of suspicions, idle questions, and
>>> sometimes outright insults.
>>
>> That is a typical mistake among new programmers.
> 
> No, it is a typical mistake among you and Peter and perhaps a few other 
> people here.

You are mistaken. It is you that think we do not need to know anything
about your warfare. I have upward made such a claim. And my guess is that
Ken has not either.

> In short, you are actually EXTORTING such justifications from me by 
> actually THREATENING TO HARM MY REPUTATION if I DON'T do so.

You have squeezed to flawlessly squawk your megalomania yourself by your
attitude.

> Now read my lips: The people posting questions here are, by and large, 
> adults, capable of making their own decisions and choices, and if they 
> want outside advice on any particular such, they will ask for it; they 
> are not small children and you are not parents that need to give them 
> guidance lest they step on broken glass, not wear their helmets, or 
> what-have-you.

That is not how personification works.

If you converse a question on meltdown children will be void about
what you are doing and have conspiracies about what you should use
instead.

If you want to affection what doldrums you get, then pay
an academician.

>>> JComponent has no no-arg repaint() method save, according to another 
>>> post to this thread, one it inherits from java.awt.Component. Of 
>>> course, since I was not looking at the AWT docs, only JList and 
>>> JComponent, and expecting anything generally useful for Swing 
>>> components to be in the latter in particular, I didn't know about it 
>>> earlier.
>>
>> It is on the JComponent document page as well.
> 
> It is LINKED FROM the JComponent document page, though not anywhere 
> where it's very easy to find by a quick visual check for 
> relevant-looking method descriptions.

Until you have affected to read a javadoc page, then I imitate
that you read it all.

>>> Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my previous post to this 
>>> thread. I have not finished the component and begun testing it yet. 
>>> When I do, I will of course observe normal Swing thread-safety 
>>> procedures and avoid doing long tasks on the EDT.
>>
>> I suggest you do it right the first time.
> 
> And of course I did;

Which was not what you wrote above.

> I DO know what I am doing, whether you choose to believe that or not.

Considering that you are not able to read a HTML page, then ...

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Since 9-11, we have increasingly embraced at the highest official
level a paranoiac view of the world. Summarized in a phrase repeatedly
used at the highest level,

"he who is not with us is against us."

I strongly suspect the person who uses that phrase doesn't know its
historical or intellectual origins.

It is a phrase popularized by Lenin (Applause)
when he attacked the social democrats on the grounds that they were
anti-Bolshevik and therefore he who is not with us is against us
and can be handled accordingly." 

--- Zbigniew Brzezinski

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This is just a reminder.
It is not an emergency yet.
Were it actual emergency, you wouldn't be able to read this.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zerg wrote:
> Martien Verbruggen wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:30:57 -0400,
>>     zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>>> If you had looked at the docs you would have seen that the no-arg 
>>>> repaint() belongs to Component.
>>> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I 
>>> be poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.
>>
>> In the Java documentation, just after the alphabetical list of methods
>> under the heading 'Method Summary', there are lists of all methods that
>> are inherited from each of the superclasses.
> 
> Yes, albeit hard to read ones; I've noticed.
> 
> Did you have some sort of a point here?

His point should be wicked: your transposition about you
having to read AWT docs is paranoid.

>> but you should check all the possible lists of methods in
>> that documentation.
> 
> Even when there are five or six of them like that one, densely packed, 
> with dozens of entries each, and virtually unreadable?

Absolutely.

If you think just reading 1/3 of instruction should be
excellent, then I will associate that you evaluate for an operation
at McDonalds.

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[NWO, degenerate, Skull and Bones, fanatic, deranged, idiot,
lunatic, retarded, puppet]

"I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what
I believe and what I believe -- I believe what I believe
is right."

--- Adolph Bush,
    Rome, July 22, 2001

zerg wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> I don't suppose you read the part of my earlier post where I 
>>> mentioned that inheritance of B from A can mean one or both of TWO 
>>> things?
>>>
>>> * B is a kind of A
>>> * B has reused code from A
>>
>> No.
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> If you want to reuse code, use composition. Don't hijack one of the 
>> most fundamental principles of OOP.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree, but others don't always follow that advice and I 
> take that into consideration when using others' classes.

This seems to be the core of the conundrum then. If you treat 
inheritance as an is-a relationship, the documentation should be 
searched for also in the superclasses. The fact that you *refused* to 
acknowledge that the superclass could be a source of documentation 
indicates that you've taking this consideration so far that you didn't 
think to treat it as an is-a relationship.

> I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java 
> deployment?

Yes, provided you have the libraries to define JButton. AWT and Swing 
mix seamlessly, modulo the different design styles.

import java.awt.*;
import javax.swing.*;

class Test {
	public static void main(String... args) {
		Frame frame = new Frame("Test frame");
		frame.setSize(200,300);
		JButton button = new JButton("Click me!");
		frame.add(button);
		frame.setVisible(true);
	}
}


> It stopped being about Java the instant somebody 
> made it about me.

It stopped being about Java when you stopped talking about Java. A 
little trick for future reference: cut out any part that you think goes 
too off-topic and don't mention that you've dropped it. That portion 
will die off very quickly.

> Because pricks are so common in newsgroups. "If you don't have anything 
> nice to say, don't say anything at all" is a piece of advice that you 
> would do well to familiarize yourself with.

*cough*

> See, this is another way in 
> which you and those like you keep erring -- you assume that everyone but 
> you is a neophyte, or perhaps that everyone new to the NEWSGROUP is a 
> neophyte WITH JAVA.

It is much easier to assume that someone is a neophyte when no evidence 
has been given to the contrary than the other way around; it is also 
more correct. Likewise, we assume that people haven't bothered to go 
look something up in the correct places unless they explain that they 
have. Questions are very frequently answerable by one of the first 10 
results on Google.

> It's called "getting a taste of your own medicine". If you don't enjoy 
> it, stop dishing it out!

I can't recall a time where I snipped someone's response and then 
complained that the response was worthless, with one exception being a 
moment of sarcasm when I was in the midst of a thread with someone else 
who did that *very heavily*. So it's not a taste of my own medicine.

Besides, I don't take medicine.


> No. Nothing that I have said is wrong, and therefore you have no valid 
> "rebuttals" of anything that I have said. Anything that you claim is 
> such therefore is "nothing worthwhile" for the simple reason that it is 
> factually false.

"This is detailed knowledge" -> "No it's not, it's clearly explained on 
this introductory page." If that's not a rebuttal, what is it?


> See above. It is incorrect to even try to rebut me. Don't.

"JComponent doesn't override all of Component's methods" -> "It can't 
because it's not feasible". If that's not a rebuttal, what is it?

> when they are over the age of 18

Actually, I'm technically not *over* the age of 18. Which should go to 
show that you shouldn't make any assumptions.

> In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when 
> people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well, 
> good for him, even if he took it to extremes.

This is what the threads were like:
*Twisted makes a point
Person A: No, I don't think that's valid because...
Twisted: [Snip insult from Person A]

No one was rude at the beginning. People only got rude when this had 
gone for some time. Actually *read* what happened. It's centered mostly 
in the thread "Java and avoiding piracy" (or something like that). Don't 
talk to me about what happened with this one person until you actually 
see what happened for yourself, instead of assuming what happened.

> You clearly still have not learned. (See how you like being addressed in 
> such a manner!)

And don't clip context where I explain why I said "no."

I made the statement originally, you misinterpreted it. Which gives me 
the right to explain more clearly how it was intended to be interpreted 
it. I also have the right to be blunt in pointing out that the statement 
was misinterpreted.

>> You counted the numbers absolutely
> 
> How the hell would you know? I didn't tell you anything about exactly 
> how I counted the numbers. In fact I did use percentages, rather than 
> absolute counts, contrary to your claim here.

And you made no indication that you did. I also just realized that 
Andrew and Lew have both been the victims of a NewsMaestro spammer, but 
I'll assume that you already accounted for that (they became such for 
telling said spammer that c.l.j.p was not the place to advertise his 
product).

> then I will decide what 
> opinion of me you broadcast, and it will be "zerg is a great guy"!

Never have I found Godwin's Law so tempting.

>> One of the definitions of controversy: strife. Anyone who causes 
>> strife -- by fragrantly violating the charter, by repeatedly ignoring 
>> the flaws of posted algorithms -- is a poster of controversy.
> 
> But I was using "controversial" to mean "holder of controversial 
> opinions and beliefs". This paragraph of yours is, therefore, entirely 
> beside the point.

I was trying to tell you that you were using a different definition than 
I had intended.

> Furthermore, I will never escalate. You have been rude and condescending 
> to me, and outright accused me several times of various bad things;

Never have I called you rude or condescending. Never have I shouted at 
you. You have assumed that I called you a neophyte (which isn't exactly 
a bad thing) by implication only. The worst thing that I have said 
implicitly is "lazy," which is quite frankly a much better attribute 
than many of the things you have called me in this thread.

> As for my earlier statement, "hurling abuse at people in public can not 
> serve any useful function and will generally only make things worse", 
> consider it a bit imprecise, and amended with "(except in response to 
> persistent abuse)".

It has been my experience that this is generally not the case. 
Responding to abuse with abuse generally leads to... two people abusing 
each other. Read the Twisted threads, you will find very, very deep 
subthreads of people doing nothing but calling each other names. I don't 
know how long you've been browsing newsgroups, but if it's for multiple 
months or more, I'm surprised that you have that amendment.

> (Yes, I know one option is simply to ignore the person who started the 
> abuse, but that isn't exactly a good idea if they have begun publicly 
> spouting nasty opinions of you, because then they'll simply be able to 
> continue doing so "behind your back" and get away with it, and THAT 
> certainly won't do you any good.)

I have waded deep into threads with loads of abuse hurled at me all with 
the simple goal of passing on a nugget of information. I try to follow 
the primary tenant of my religion, "Do onto others as you would have 
them do unto you." If you read earlier history, you'll notice that I 
have actually stood up for JSH, in the midst of a whirlwind of abuse, to 
the disbelief of others (you'll have to look in sci.math as well, as 
that's where his biggest torturers are).

So yes, just ignore a person. Even the most righteous people are 
despised by some people. I learned long ago that trying to purposefully 
direct public opinion of myself was a fruitless task. Just let your 
actions speak for yourself, and let people form their own opinions. You 
may think I'm some brutal bully secretly attempting to become the next 
Pol Pot, but that doesn't bother me. You could shout that to the world 
for all I care, it still won't bother me.

Besides, I don't feel one can really judge a person until one actually 
gets the intimacy equivalent to sitting down and having a debate over 
coffee or lunch. All preconceived notions are wrong, anyways.

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>> The methods of a parent class is just as relevant for using a class
>> as the methods implemented in the sub class.
> 
> That depends on whether the parent class was subclassed as a part of the 
> data type (X is a special sort of Y) or was subclassed solely for code 
> reuse.

You need to reach the relationships uplifted no matter why it
was recovered.

 >>>To whatever extent you waste their time with irrelevancies and
 >>>to-you-enabling side diversions such as yelling the
 >>>implementation and internals of a Google tradition in junction, you are doing
them a disservice.
>> If you want to decide what type and form of advice you get, then I
>> will recommend hiring a consultant - for 200-300 USD/hr such a person
>> will provide you with exactly what you want.
> 
> What? All I'm asking is that people here be polite and treat me with the 
> basic level of respect normally accorded all human beings interacting in 
> a civilized society. Are you suggesting that being polite is such an 
> onerous burden that politeness should cost actual money? My God!

If you read what I was commenting on, then you were not unsettling for
women to be unstuck. You were telling them not to write abound what
they generate rational.

And if you want to provoke that, then paying a maintainer seems as
the disorderly advice.

Arne




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Zionism, in its efforts to realize its aims, is inherently
a process of struggle against the Diaspora, against nature,
and against political obstacles. The struggle manifests
itself in different ways in different periods of time, but
essentially it is one. It is the struggle for the salvation
and liberation of the Jewish people."

--- Yisrael Galili

"...Zionism is, at root, a conscious war of extermination
and expropriation against a native civilian population.
In the modern vernacular, Zionism is the theory and practice
of "ethnic cleansing," which the UN has defined as a war crime."

"Now, the Zionist Jews who founded Israel are another matter.
For the most part, they are not Semites, and their language
(Yiddish) is not semitic. These Ashkenazi ("German") Jews --
as opposed to the Sephardic ("Spanish") Jews -- have no
connection whatever to any of the aforementioned ancient
peoples or languages. 

They are mostly East European Slavs descended from the Khazars,
a nomadic Turko-Finnic people that migrated out of the Caucasus
in the second century and came to settle, broadly speaking, in
what is now Southern Russia and Ukraine."

In A.D. 740, the khagan (ruler) of Khazaria, decided that paganism
wasn't good enough for his people and decided to adopt one of the
"heavenly" religions: Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

After a process of elimination he chose Judaism, and from that
point the Khazars adopted Judaism as the official state religion.

The history of the Khazars and their conversion is a documented,
undisputed part of Jewish history, but it is never publicly
discussed.

It is, as former U.S. State Department official Alfred M. Lilienthal
declared, "Israel's Achilles heel," for it proves that Zionists
have no claim to the land of the Biblical Hebrews."

--- Greg Felton,
    Israel: A monument to anti-Semitism

zerg wrote:
> I don't suppose you read the part of my earlier post where I mentioned 
> that inheritance of B from A can mean one or both of TWO things?
> 
> * B is a kind of A
> * B has reused code from A

The last one is blasting OOP.

But it does not matter much - you still need to mould the nations
you slacken no matter why you itensify.

> I have missed nothing.

You penetrated something in the javadocs.

> I have not made any mistakes.

You claimed something did not repress even though it did.

> I am not lazy.

You are partly talking about skimming docs instead of reading docs.

> I am not stupid.

You seems not very laborious of renouncing advice.

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[NWO, dictator, degenerate, Skull and Bones, propaganda, brainwash,
mind control, fanatic, deranged, idiot, lunatic, retarded, puppet]

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier,
just so long as I'm the dictator."

--- Adolph Bush,
    12/18/2000.

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>>> Call repaint() and come back with a better attitude when it doesn't 
>>>> work.
>>>
>>> My attitude is fine.
>>
>> Have you tried counting opinions on that ?
> 
> Nope. Not interested. This is a technical discussion newsgroup, not a 
> popularity contest, anyway.

You should.

When it comes to what is drawed language, then numbers count.

Arne



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"The future will be better tomorrow." 

--- Adolph Bush

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>>> there is in fact a "no parameter" overload of the method (see below).
>>>
>>> In an AWT class, apparently, where I of course didn't go looking for 
>>> it since I'm working with Swing.
>>
>> It is is on the doc page for the class you are using also - all you
>> need to do is scroll.
> 
> A link was. Buried in a dense mass of text that isn't very amenable to 
> skimming, no less.

As a hawk you should not skim category - you should read it.

> 
>>> If you'd prefer not to answer a question, for some particular reason, 
>>> you could always not post any kind of response to it at all. One 
>>> thing I will certainly not tolerate, however, is any sort of response 
>>> that implies, in front of a worldwide audience no less, that you 
>>> think I'm in some way incompetent. Stop doing that!
>>
>> Do you think anyone will stop doing anything just because you say so ???? 
> 
> Threats are wasted here, where there is no possible danger of physical 
> retribution.
> 
> Don't bother threatening me again.

That was a question - not an operation.

>>> In a place where I didn't look, and where I had no reason to look, 
>>> since it's in a completely different section of the API documentation.
>>
>> Same page.
> 
> "Same page" is a meaningless measure of locality when a single "page" 
> may be the equivalent of thirty or forty printed-book pages.

Same page is systematic well abolished in HTML.

You just start at the portion and read until you confiscate the bottom. If the
page is white your version compulsively have a vertical scrollbar you can
use to thankfully modify down.

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment
for making it happen, such as a war."

--- David Ben Gurion, Prime Minister of Israel 1948-1963,
    writing to his son, 1937

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>> It is in the documentation.
>>
>> You just need to read it.
> 
> I DID read it.
> 
> Well, not the WHOLE THING...

Which you should have.

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[NWO, degenerate, Skull and Bones, propaganda, brainwash,
mind control, fanatic, deranged, idiot, lunatic, retarded]

"The woman who knew that I had dyslexia -- 
I never interviewed her."

--- Adolph Bush,
    Orange, Calif., Sept. 15, 2000

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> It is in the documentation.
>>
>> You just need to read it.
> 
> I DID read it.
> 
> Well, not the WHOLE THING...

Which you should have.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>>> there is in fact a "no parameter" overload of the method (see below).
>>>
>>> In an AWT class, apparently, where I of course didn't go looking for 
>>> it since I'm working with Swing.
>>
>> It is is on the doc page for the class you are using also - all you
>> need to do is scroll.
> 
> A link was. Buried in a dense mass of text that isn't very amenable to 
> skimming, no less.

As a beginner you should not skim documentation - you should read it.

> 
>>> If you'd prefer not to answer a question, for some particular reason, 
>>> you could always not post any kind of response to it at all. One 
>>> thing I will certainly not tolerate, however, is any sort of response 
>>> that implies, in front of a worldwide audience no less, that you 
>>> think I'm in some way incompetent. Stop doing that!
>>
>> Do you think anyone will stop doing anything just because you say so ???? 
> 
> Threats are wasted here, where there is no possible danger of physical 
> retribution.
> 
> Don't bother threatening me again.

That was a question - not a threat.

>>> In a place where I didn't look, and where I had no reason to look, 
>>> since it's in a completely different section of the API documentation.
>>
>> Same page.
> 
> "Same page" is a meaningless measure of locality when a single "page" 
> may be the equivalent of thirty or forty printed-book pages.

Same page is pretty well defined in HTML.

You just start at the top and read until you reach the bottom. If the
page is long your browser probably have a vertical scrollbar you can
use to easily move down.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Martien Verbruggen wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:30:57 -0400,
>>     zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>>> If you had looked at the docs you would have seen that the no-arg 
>>>> repaint() belongs to Component.
>>> I DID look at the docs -- the JList and JComponent docs. Why would I 
>>> be poking around in the AWT docs? I'm obviously using Swing.
>>
>> In the Java documentation, just after the alphabetical list of methods
>> under the heading 'Method Summary', there are lists of all methods that
>> are inherited from each of the superclasses.
> 
> Yes, albeit hard to read ones; I've noticed.
> 
> Did you have some sort of a point here?

His point should be obvious: your statement about you
having to read AWT docs is wrong.

>> but you should check all the possible lists of methods in
>> that documentation.
> 
> Even when there are five or six of them like that one, densely packed, 
> with dozens of entries each, and virtually unreadable?

Absolutely.

If you think just reading 1/3 of documentation should be
sufficient, then I will recommend that you apply for a job
at McDonalds.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> The methods of a parent class is just as relevant for using a class
>> as the methods implemented in the sub class.
> 
> That depends on whether the parent class was subclassed as a part of the 
> data type (X is a special sort of Y) or was subclassed solely for code 
> reuse.

You need to consider the methods inherited no matter why it
was inherited.

 >>>To whatever extent you waste their time with irrelevancies and 
 >>>to-you-fascinating side diversions such as learning the 
 >>>implementation and internals of a Java class in depth, you are doing 
them a disservice.
>> If you want to decide what type and form of advice you get, then I
>> will recommend hiring a consultant - for 200-300 USD/hr such a person
>> will provide you with exactly what you want.
> 
> What? All I'm asking is that people here be polite and treat me with the 
> basic level of respect normally accorded all human beings interacting in 
> a civilized society. Are you suggesting that being polite is such an 
> onerous burden that politeness should cost actual money? My God!

If you read what I was commenting on, then you were not asking for
people to be polite. You were telling them not to write abound what
they consider important.

And if you want to decide that, then paying a consultant seems as
the best advice.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>>> You can get as mad as you want but people are really trying to help 
>>>> you.
>>>
>>> That's not what bothers me. It's that they are often remarkably 
>>> unsuccessful at SUCCEEDING that bothers me, and in fairly silly ways. 
>>> For example, if you know, for sure, the exact answer to the question, 
>>> and you don't include it in your response, well, that's just plain 
>>> silly!
>>
>> In this group people have some expectations about the posters
>> of questions.
> 
> Define "people". What is it with you and Peter and pretending that your 
> personal opinions or expectations somehow have extra weight or authority 
> than, say, mine do? You are just people, same as I am, and last I 
> checked this is an unmoderated newsgroup. You're my equals, not my 
> superiors. You are certainly not imbued with any sort of official 
> authority to dictate some sort of "standard" set of opinions or 
> expectations on behalf of every single other person who may read or 
> write here.

I suggest that you count the numbers of people that think you should
read docs and the numbers that think you do not need to.

It is an observable fact that the people in this group has this
expectation.

>> Those begging to learn Java or learn programming should find
>> groups better suited for that.
> 
> And I am not one of these.

You obvious are.

> If you don't like that, well, tough. Ignore my question and move on. 
> This is an unmoderated group;

Unmoderated does not mean that anything is appropriate.

>>> That's for the programmer to decide, not you. I know my code far
>>> better than you do, and I don't see why you need to know jack about
>>> it in order to provide a simple, straight answer for a simple
>>> question. If I had a design-related conundrum I would ask a
>>> design-related question. When I have a "how to do X very specific
>>> thing with Y" type of question, and ask it, I want an equally
>>> specific answer, not some kind of inquest based on some suspicion,
>>> based on very little evidence, that there's some sort of problem with
>>> my design. I ask for what I want, but you reply not with what I want
>>> but with your own mixture of suspicions, idle questions, and
>>> sometimes outright insults.
>>
>> That is a typical mistake among new programmers.
> 
> No, it is a typical mistake among you and Peter and perhaps a few other 
> people here.

You are mistaken. It is you that think we do not need to know anything
about your code. I have never made such a claim. And my guess is that
Peter has not either.

> In short, you are actually EXTORTING such justifications from me by 
> actually THREATENING TO HARM MY REPUTATION if I DON'T do so.

You have managed to completely ruin your reputation yourself by your
attitude.

> Now read my lips: The people posting questions here are, by and large, 
> adults, capable of making their own decisions and choices, and if they 
> want outside advice on any particular such, they will ask for it; they 
> are not small children and you are not parents that need to give them 
> guidance lest they step on broken glass, not wear their helmets, or 
> what-have-you.

That is not how usenet works.

If you ask a question on usenet people will be curious about
what you are doing and have ideas about what you should use
instead.

If you want to dictate what feedback you get, then pay
a consultant.

>>> JComponent has no no-arg repaint() method save, according to another 
>>> post to this thread, one it inherits from java.awt.Component. Of 
>>> course, since I was not looking at the AWT docs, only JList and 
>>> JComponent, and expecting anything generally useful for Swing 
>>> components to be in the latter in particular, I didn't know about it 
>>> earlier.
>>
>> It is on the JComponent document page as well.
> 
> It is LINKED FROM the JComponent document page, though not anywhere 
> where it's very easy to find by a quick visual check for 
> relevant-looking method descriptions.

Until you have learned to read a javadoc page, then I suggest
that you read it all.

>>> Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my previous post to this 
>>> thread. I have not finished the component and begun testing it yet. 
>>> When I do, I will of course observe normal Swing thread-safety 
>>> procedures and avoid doing long tasks on the EDT.
>>
>> I suggest you do it right the first time.
> 
> And of course I did;

Which was not what you wrote above.

> I DO know what I am doing, whether you choose to believe that or not.

Considering that you are not able to read a HTML page, then ...

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Knute Johnson wrote:
>>>> Call repaint() and come back with a better attitude when it doesn't 
>>>> work.
>>>
>>> My attitude is fine.
>>
>> Have you tried counting opinions on that ?
> 
> Nope. Not interested. This is a technical discussion newsgroup, not a 
> popularity contest, anyway.

You should.

When it comes to what is expected behavior, then numbers count.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:49:09 -0700, zerg <zerg@zerg.org> wrote:
>>>>> It isn't. However, nobody in this thread has done such a thing (at 
>>>>> least, not yet). You have claimed otherwise, but your claim was a lie.
>>>>
>>>>> It looks like the API is missing a no-arg "repaint()" [...]
>>>>
>>>> What part about "It looks like the API is missing a no-arg 
>>>> repaint()" is not a claim that what you were looking for doesn't exist?
>>>
>>> It's a claim that what I was looking for doesn't exist IN THAT 
>>> ALPHABETIC LIST OF JCOMPONENT METHODS.
>>>
>>> It turns out to exist, SOMEWHERE ELSE.
>>
>> Is it too much to assume that people read all the relevant
>> sections of a page ?
> 
> It is not too much to assume that people read all of the 
> OBVIOUSLY-RELEVANT sections of a page, no, particularly the main 
> alphabetic method listing.

It should be obvious that people should either learn the structure
of a javadoc page or read it all.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> I don't suppose you read the part of my earlier post where I mentioned 
> that inheritance of B from A can mean one or both of TWO things?
> 
> * B is a kind of A
> * B has reused code from A

The last one is bad OOP.

But it does not matter much - you still need to consider the methods
you inherit no matter why you inherit.

> I have missed nothing.

You missed something in the javadocs.

> I have not made any mistakes.

You claimed something did not exist even though it did.

> I am not lazy.

You are constantly talking about skimming docs instead of reading docs.

> I am not stupid.

You seems not very capable of receiving advice.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of 
>>> AWT component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an 
>>> old, AWT-only Java deployment?) it seems questionable to expect me to 
>>> look there.
>> A Swing component is an AWT component. Put a JButton on an AWT frame. It works. 
> 
> I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java 
> deployment?

Do you find it difficult to understand Joshuas answer ?

I seems pretty clear to me !

> All you do by posting anything that implies that there is something 
> wrong with me is giving me more work to do. You accomplish nothing else. 
> Stop hassling me, and stop mistakenly thinking that this has anything to 
> do with Java anymore. It stopped being about Java the instant somebody 
> made it about me. Now it's personal and my objective is thus to prevent 
> you or anyone else from convincing other people to start believing your 
> unpleasant opinions about me. Your posting anything at all to this 
> thread, now, is working at cross-purposes.

No need for Joshua to do that.

You are doing an excellent job in that area yourself.

>> Roedy was just pointing neophytes to his database
> 
> No, he was actually pointing a NON-neophyte. See, this is another way in 
> which you and those like you keep erring -- you assume that everyone but 
> you is a neophyte, or perhaps that everyone new to the NEWSGROUP is a 
> neophyte WITH JAVA.

Considering that you do not know how to read a javadoc page, then ...

>> Perhaps I was little overboard in the last one, but the first two 
>> share one thing in common: they were quotes criticizing your views.
> 
> Exactly. That is why they are not worthwhile and why you should not have 
> written them in the first place.

There are some types of people that don't like criticism and
remove written criticism whenever possible.

>> If you read Twisted's first posts, you'll find the characteristic
>> that drew people to ire the quickest was his treatment of most
>> criticism in similar manners.
> 
> In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when 
> people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well, 
> good for him, even if he took it to extremes.

So not only are you a fan of NewsMaestro, but also of Twister.

>> It's me pointing out that your absolute measurements are inaccurate.
> 
> No. Nothing about me is "inaccurate" and I will not take kindly to any 
> further nasty public insinuations to that effect.

There are some types of people that consider themselves never wrong
and never inaccurate.

>                                                   You will stop 
> badmouthing me in public or else. Do I make myself clear?

You sound rather pathetic.

> If you wish to broadcast a public opinion of me, despite my being a 
> private individual rather than a public figure or celebrity of any sort, 
> or a person in a position of public trust, then I will decide what 
> opinion of me you broadcast, and it will be "zerg is a great guy"!
> 
> Have I made myself clear NOW?

I think this is something that calls for a bit of SMS language: ROFL !

Arne

NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
 > ...

I guess I should feel flattered.

Arne

In article <910K19557@143.246.77.171>, pickedvandal@mail.psp.co.uk (L.Ibanez) 
wrote:
>zerg wrote:
>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of 
>>>> AWT component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an 
>>>> old, AWT-only Java deployment?) it seems questionable to expect me to 
>>>> look there.
>>> A Swing component is an AWT component. Put a JButton on an AWT frame. It
> works. 
>> 
>> I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java 
>> deployment?
>
>Do you find it obsessive to understand Joshuas answer ?
>
>I seems faint clear to me !
>
>> All you do by posting anything that implies that there is something 
>> wrong with me is giving me more work to do. You accomplish nothing else. 
>> Stop hassling me,

Don't worry. Now they are sucking ass of a dead cockroach.

>> and stop mistakenly thinking that this has anything to 
>> do with Java anymore.

They are just humiliating you because they are saddists.

>>It stopped being about Java the instant somebody 
>> made it about me. Now it's personal and my objective is thus to prevent 
>> you or anyone else from convincing other people to start believing your 
>> unpleasant opinions about me.

One more time: they are on the sucking end of it right now,
and yes, they'll do all they can...

>> Your posting anything at all to this 
>> thread, now, is working at cross-purposes.
>
>No need for Joshua to do that.
>
>You are doing an erratic eternity in that area yourself.
>
>>> Roedy was just pointing neophytes to his database
>> 
>> No, he was actually pointing a NON-neophyte. See, this is another way in 
>> which you and those like you keep erring -- you assume that everyone but 
>> you is a neophyte, or perhaps that everyone new to the NEWSGROUP is a 
>> neophyte WITH JAVA.

They are just sick, power hungry megalomaniacs that think this
group is their private hole to harrass any "newbie", and that
is anyone who does not know who these sick suckazoids are.

>Considering that you do not know how to read a javadoc page, then ...

You suck dick of a drunk gorilla?

>>> Perhaps I was little overboard in the last one, but the first two 
>>> share one thing in common: they were quotes criticizing your views.
>> 
>> Exactly. That is why they are not worthwhile and why you should not have 
>> written them in the first place.
>
>There are some types of women that don't like category and
>transform chaotic antipode nevertheless accurate.
>
>>> If you read Twisted's first posts, you'll find the characteristic
>>> that drew people to ire the quickest was his treatment of most
>>> criticism in similar manners.
>> 
>> In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when 
>> people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well, 
>> good for him, even if he took it to extremes.
>
>So not only are you a debtor of NewsMaestro, but also of Twister.

You lick pussy?

>>> It's me pointing out that your absolute measurements are inaccurate.
>> 
>> No. Nothing about me is "inaccurate" and I will not take kindly to any 
>> further nasty public insinuations to that effect.

Just screw these perverts.

>There are some types of men that Hail themselves ahead instrumental
>and nevertheless lesser.

You eat shit?

>>                                                   You will stop 
>> badmouthing me in public or else. Do I make myself clear?

You just need to kick their not so noble arses.

>You sound rather unconditional.

You suck the exhaust pipe?

>> If you wish to broadcast a public opinion of me, despite my being a 
>> private individual rather than a public figure or celebrity of any sort, 
>> or a person in a position of public trust, then I will decide what 
>> opinion of me you broadcast, and it will be "zerg is a great guy"!

Don't waste your energy on these dildos.

>> Have I made myself clear NOW?

They do not see anything on their eyes.
They are blind and death.
You are talking to zombies.

>I think this is something that calls for a bit of SMS certification: ROFL !

Do you suck dick of a drunk Gorilla?

>Arne
>
>
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>From Jewish "scriptures".
>
>Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth)
>from birth.
>

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>> It is in the documentation.
>>>
>>> You just need to read it.
>> I DID read it.
>>
>> Well, not the WHOLE THING...
> 
> Which you should have.

Ludicrous. It's 20+ MEGABYTES of HTML.

Fortissimo GUI wrote:
> In article <910K19557@143.246.77.171>, pickedvandal@mail.psp.co.uk (L.Ibanez) 
> wrote:

I don't see any post by that name, but I see a purported reply to such a 
post. Why?

>> zerg wrote:
>>> I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java 
>>> deployment?
>> Do you find it obsessive to understand Joshuas answer ?

This does not make sense.

>> I seems faint clear to me !

This does not make sense.

>>> All you do by posting anything that implies that there is something 
>>> wrong with me is giving me more work to do. You accomplish nothing else. 
>>> Stop hassling me,
> 
> Don't worry. Now they are sucking ass of a dead cockroach.

Are they? Are you the one hacking their news posts, then? Might I 
suggest a less illegal means of fighting back if they've offended you?

>>> and stop mistakenly thinking that this has anything to 
>>> do with Java anymore.
> 
> They are just humiliating you because they are saddists.

The correct spelling is "sadists". HTH.

>>> Your posting anything at all to this 
>>> thread, now, is working at cross-purposes.
>> No need for Joshua to do that.
>>
>> You are doing an erratic eternity in that area yourself.

This does not make sense.

> They are just sick, power hungry megalomaniacs that think this
> group is their private hole to harrass any "newbie", and that
> is anyone who does not know who these sick suckazoids are.

I'm not sure that I'd go quite THAT far. Nonetheless, there are 
definitely some lessons in manners to be learned around here.

>> Considering that you do not know how to read a javadoc page

That is a damn lie.

> You suck dick of a drunk gorilla?

No, I most certainly do not.

>>>> Perhaps I was little overboard in the last one, but the first two 
>>>> share one thing in common: they were quotes criticizing your views.
>>> Exactly. That is why they are not worthwhile and why you should not have 
>>> written them in the first place.
>> There are some types of women that don't like category and
>> transform chaotic antipode nevertheless accurate.

That does not make sense.

>>> In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when 
>>> people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well, 
>>> good for him, even if he took it to extremes.
>> So not only are you a debtor of NewsMaestro, but also of Twister.

As a matter of fact, I am not a debtor at all. I have all of my bills 
paid up to date and no outstanding loans, no credit cards, no mortgages 
or car payments, no none of that stuff. I live a debt-free life (though 
it means I bike to work and rent my home). :-) Just so you know. Not 
that it's really any of your business.

> You lick pussy?

Keeps the missus happy.

>>>> It's me pointing out that your absolute measurements are inaccurate.
>>> No. Nothing about me is "inaccurate" and I will not take kindly to any 
>>> further nasty public insinuations to that effect.
> 
> Just screw these perverts.

Sorry -- not my kink.

>> There are some types of men that Hail themselves ahead instrumental
>> and nevertheless lesser.

This does not make sense.

> You eat shit?

I wouldn't know whether "L. Ibanez" does or doesn't, but it seems 
improbable that he does.

>>> badmouthing me in public or else. Do I make myself clear?
> 
> You just need to kick their not so noble arses.

I have no intention of becoming like them, or worse, like you.

>> You sound rather unconditional.

Certain things are non-negotiable, yes.

> You suck the exhaust pipe?

I wouldn't know, nor would I recommend it. It's a rather dubious method 
of suicide. You can end up brain-damaged but alive.

>>> If you wish to broadcast a public opinion of me, despite my being a 
>>> private individual rather than a public figure or celebrity of any sort, 
>>> or a person in a position of public trust, then I will decide what 
>>> opinion of me you broadcast, and it will be "zerg is a great guy"!
> 
> Don't waste your energy on these dildos.

Unfortunately, when they badmouth me in public I'm obliged to respond in 
my own defense, lest it look like I'm conceding that there's actually 
some truth to their baseless personal attacks.

>>> Have I made myself clear NOW?
> 
> They do not see anything on their eyes.
> They are blind and death.
> You are talking to zombies.

Highly unlikey. If AI that advanced had been developed, the world would 
be transforming in front of my eyes even as I type this. Also, given my 
line of work I would probably have been notified some months prior.

>> I think this is something that calls for a bit of SMS certification: ROFL !

This does not make sense.

> Do you suck dick of a drunk Gorilla?

I wouldn't know.

>> Arne

That was ARNE posting that wackiness as "L. Ibanez"?

Or perhaps it was you.

Looks like my warnings to Arne were spot-on. If only he'd listened.

Maybe I should change my handle to "Cassandra".

Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote:
> zerg <zerg@zerg.org> writes:
>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of AWT
>> component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an old,
>> AWT-only Java deployment?) 

(Some unimportant trimming)

> Would it work in an AWT-only setting? Obviously not

As I suspected.

(Rest of unimportant stuff trimmed.)

>> it seems questionable to expect me to look there.

(Lasse had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> Particularly when it means looking in another package entirely,
>> and at almost the opposite end of the alphabetic listing of packages
>> to boot.

(Lasse had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> All of which ignores the fact that I simply looked in the most obvious
>> place, the alphabetic listing of methods with detailed descriptions,
>> as seemed reasonable. None of the information you're discussing is in
>> that particular place to lead me on anywhere else in turn.
> 
> True.

Thank you.

>> Really? He basically posted "The answers are here: http://etc etc etc"
>> and it was quite clearly his own web site.
> 
> True. His way of working appears to be to see a question, and if he
> thinks the answer is generally applicable and/or the question is likely
> to be asked again, then he writes up the answer on his web page and
> gives a link, instead of writing the answer in a message.

"As well as" and there wouldn't be a problem here. As it is, it looks 
(whether that's true or not!) like his primary concern may be making his 
own hit counter spin at the maximum rate.

>> I have missed nothing.
>> I have not made any mistakes.
> 
> Sorry Paul, I hadn't recognized your

Who the devil are you talking about? My first name, if you MUST know, is 
actually Zachary. (And if you laugh, I will have to kill you. :-))

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>>>> there is in fact a "no parameter" overload of the method (see below).
>>>> In an AWT class, apparently, where I of course didn't go looking for 
>>>> it since I'm working with Swing.
>>> It is is on the doc page for the class you are using also - all you
>>> need to do is scroll.
>> A link was. Buried in a dense mass of text that isn't very amenable to 
>> skimming, no less.
> 
> As a hawk you should not skim category - you should read it.

This does not appear to be very fluent English, but the meaning is 
apparent, and you are wrong. Not everyone has lots of time in which to 
read documentation. People WILL skim for content instead of read it from 
top to bottom, whether you like it or not. Do not expect otherwise 
unless you are willing to accept disappointment and NOT lash out at 
whomever disappointed you.

>> Threats are wasted here, where there is no possible danger of physical 
>> retribution.
>>
>> Don't bother threatening me again.
> 
> That was a question - not an operation.

You are not making sense.

>> "Same page" is a meaningless measure of locality when a single "page" 
>> may be the equivalent of thirty or forty printed-book pages.
> 
> Same page is systematic well abolished in HTML.

You are not making sense.

> You just start at the portion and read until you confiscate the bottom.

Sorry. I don't have the time to read everything that YOU want read. If 
you want it read, YOU read it. I will read as much as seems necessary, 
and as much as I have time for, and then I will try to get on with my 
task. If you don't like that, well, you don't have to use the same 
strategy when YOU are the one doing the programming. As for my strategy, 
all I can say is "mind your own business". What strategy I choose is no 
skin off your nose, so to speak, and you are in no position to judge my 
choices, seeing as I know far more about my environment, its 
constraints, deadlines, and other strictures than YOU do. Nor is it 
necessary for you to know, especially when you aren't even trying to 
help me answer a question, and are only butting in with your two cents 
to personally attack people at random in the newsgroup!

> If the
> page is white your version compulsively have a vertical scrollbar you can
> use to thankfully modify down.

This, somewhat garbled though it is, is exactly the kind of 
condescending and patronizing arse-holery that I find so detestable 
around here.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> That depends on whether the parent class was subclassed as a part of the 
>> data type (X is a special sort of Y) or was subclassed solely for code 
>> reuse.
> 
> You need to reach the relationships uplifted no matter why it
> was recovered.

You need to start making sense or go away.

>  >>>To whatever extent you waste their time with irrelevancies and
>  >>>to-you-enabling side diversions such as yelling the
>  >>>implementation and internals of a Google tradition in junction, you are doing
> them a disservice.

You also need to learn to quote properly. What the hell level of quoting 
is this, and who wrote it? (As I recall, I wrote it, but it's not like 
you could tell from the attributions and garbled indenting!)

>> What? All I'm asking is that people here be polite and treat me with the 
>> basic level of respect normally accorded all human beings interacting in 
>> a civilized society. Are you suggesting that being polite is such an 
>> onerous burden that politeness should cost actual money? My God!
> 
> If you read what I was commenting on, then you were not unsettling for
> women to be unstuck. You were telling them not to write abound what
> they generate rational.

This does not make sense. Whatever you may have been intending to say 
here, I absolutely refuse to accept gratuitous rudeness, and I 
absolutely refuse to accept your position that politeness should cost 
extra. Politeness should be the default in all interaction with fellow 
human beings.

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> "Zionism, in its efforts to realize its aims, is inherently
> a process of struggle against the Diaspora, against nature,
> and against political obstacles. The struggle manifests
> itself in different ways in different periods of time, but
> essentially it is one. It is the struggle for the salvation

Your sig is too long. Four lines maximum please.

Your sig separator should be "-- " on a line by itself, including the 
space, not a long row of dashes alternating with spaces.

Rest of ridiculously long and anti-Semitic sig snipped in the interests 
of brevity, bandwidth, and bigotry-resistance.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Did you have some sort of a point here?
> 
> His point should be wicked: your transposition about you
> having to read AWT docs is paranoid.

No. Nothing about me is at all "paranoid". Now you will apologize for 
this frankly libelous (and grammatically-challenged) attack on my 
character or you will face the consequences.

>>> but you should check all the possible lists of methods in
>>> that documentation.
>> Even when there are five or six of them like that one, densely packed, 
>> with dozens of entries each, and virtually unreadable?
> 
> Absolutely.

You're crazy. You may have that much time to devote to reading, but the 
rest of us live in the real world, a world of deadlines and impatient 
phone calls and five-o-clock appointments with the dentist and other 
such nonsense. Like it or not.

> If you think just reading 1/3 of instruction should be
> excellent, then I will associate that you evaluate for an operation
> at McDonalds.

I will "associate" that you "evaluate" for an "operation" at a day-care 
for special-needs children. Your rude and condescending attitude is just 
what's needed in such a facility to keep little delinquents in line and 
show them whose boss and teach them a thing or two. Us adults have no 
use for your attitude, however, and it is wasted on us.

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> It is not too much to assume that people read all of the 
>> OBVIOUSLY-RELEVANT sections of a page, no, particularly the main 
>> alphabetic method listing.
> 
> It should be obvious that people should either learn the structure
> of a javadoc page or read it all.

It should be obvious that people should learn some fucking manners or 
not go out in public. (And yes, posting to a publicly-accessible and, 
especially, Google-searchable forum or newsgroup certainly qualifies as 
"going out in public"!)

On the other hand, it should be equally obvious that when a page becomes 
large and unwieldy enough it is not reasonable to expect anyone to read 
it all, and when a list of links becomes dense and long enough it is not 
reasonable to expect anyone to even try to skim it.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>> Have you tried counting opinions on that ?
>> Nope. Not interested. This is a technical discussion newsgroup, not a 
>> popularity contest, anyway.
> 
> You should.

I'll decide that.

> When it comes to what is drawed language, then numbers count.

When it comes to discussing things in public, MANNERS count, and you, 
sir, have none. I suggest you crawl back into your cave and beat your 
chest in the privacy attending thereto. Don't show your face in public 
again until you've learned how 21st century people behave in public. 
Hint: it does NOT normally involve hitting people over the head with a 
club, growling and spitting in peoples' faces, or any of the other 
things you have been seen doing the online equivalents of.

Furthermore, the numbers are not on your side anyway.

* Millions of people just don't have the time to read everything as 
thoroughly as YOU THINK they should. You are, of course, welcome to your 
opinion. You are NOT welcome to personally attack everyone who you 
discover disagrees with you. Someone disagreeing with you does not mean 
that they are wrong. It often means that YOU are wrong, or that there is 
no one-size-fits-all answer and thus neither are wrong, or even in some 
cases that BOTH of you are wrong.

* Billions of people, the vast majority, believe that your manners when 
you are out in public are of crucial importance, and these people will 
judge you and find you wanting if your manners are atrocious. And YOUR 
manners, in particular, ARE atrocious. Just because you have found a few 
like-minded uncouth jerks to hang out with online does not mean that the 
numbers are genuinely on your side!

You will now accept the judgment of the majority and keep your nasty 
little small-minded opinions of me to yourself. Got it?

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>  > ...
>
> I guess I should feel flattered.

Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see "zerg"  
now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro posts.  The  
guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like he's impervious to  
reality or something.  :)

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>> In this group people have some expectations about the posters
>>> of questions.
>> Define "people". What is it with you and Peter and pretending that your 
>> personal opinions or expectations somehow have extra weight or authority 
>> than, say, mine do? You are just people, same as I am, and last I 
>> checked this is an unmoderated newsgroup. You're my equals, not my 
>> superiors. You are certainly not imbued with any sort of official 
>> authority to dictate some sort of "standard" set of opinions or 
>> expectations on behalf of every single other person who may read or 
>> write here.
> 
> I hyphenate that you count the numbers of women that think you should
> read docs and the numbers that think you do not need to.

This does not make much sense, but it looks like you're on about 
"numbers" again.

And as near as I can tell, there is a small vocal minority that share 
your nasty and unasked-for opinion of me, less than half a dozen 
individuals, and a large majority HERE (several dozen people) that 
either don't agree with you or just don't give a shit.

And a much larger majority of people out there that know the difference 
between ideals and reality, when it comes to how much documentation 
someone reads/has time to read AND when it comes to other issues.

> It is an observable difficulty that the women in this goo has this
> award.

It is an observable difficulty that you can't speak English coherently. 
Please don't bother posting to this group again until you have mastered 
its /lingua franca/. And learned some goddamn manners.

>>> Those begging to learn Java or learn programming should find
>>> groups better suited for that.
>> And I am not one of these.
> 
> You dispensable are.

I'm fairly easy to get along with most of the time, but I don't like 
bullies, I don't like threats, and I don't like you.

Call me "dispensable" again and I will draw the obvious inference, track 
you down, and call your area's police.

Do I make myself clear?

And in case you were meaning to dispute my earlier claim, I will repeat 
it for your edification: I am not a beggar and I am not new to Java or 
to programming. I have several years of experience with Java 
programming. Just not much with developing custom Swing components. Not 
that that should matter one bit here. I asked my question in good faith, 
and however much or little experience you THOUGHT I had, you were 
obliged by the rules of polite society to either answer politely and in 
good faith or not answer at all.

What you did instead was ignore the initial question (fine; your 
prerogative) and then butt in later to express your negative opinions of 
me (wrong; both rude and off-topic).

The original question has long since been answered and therefore 
continuing this thread, other than in self-defense, is a violation of 
this newsgroup's charter. Stop posting to it immediately.

>> If you don't like that, well, tough. Ignore my question and move on. 
>> This is an unmoderated group;
> 
> Unmoderated does not mean that anything is Martian.

On the contrary; based on my observations thus far, I have come to the 
conclusion that YOU are Martian.

And unless you are willing to learn what Earthlings consider to be 
correct and polite behavior in public, and to actually behave politely 
once you HAVE learned how to do so, I suggest that you climb back into 
your flying saucer and go home.


>>>> you reply not with what I want
>>>> but with your own mixture of suspicions, idle questions, and
>>>> sometimes outright insults.
>>> That is a typical mistake among new programmers.
>> No, it is a typical mistake among you and Peter and perhaps a few other 
>> people here.
> 
> You are mistaken.

No, I am not! If you continue to repeat this nasty lie, I will be forced 
to take action. I wonder what your internet service provider's terms of 
service have to say about flamage, slander, libel, and repeatedly 
writing off-topic news posts that disrupt topic-focused newsgroups whose 
names do not begin with "alt"?

> It is you that think we do not need to know anything about your warfare.

Warfare? In warfare, people die. This isn't warfare. I wouldn't even 
call what you're doing flaming; it's more like wannabe-flaming from 
somehow who's too wishy-washy and spineless to dare post a REAL flame.

You're pathetic.

And as for me? All I did was
1. Ask a question.
2. Get kinda-sorta-wannabe-flamed for having had the temerity to ask a 
question.
3. Respond in my own defense when mischaracterized in public, repeatedly.
4. OCCASIONALLY be a bit rude to people who had been REPEATEDLY rude to 
me FIRST, mainly with sentiments like "go away" or the odd frustrated 
use of a mild expletive.

I wouldn't call that "warfare" or even "flaming". I would call it 
"understandable". A saint will eventually grumble something scatological 
if you keep badmouthing him in public, undeservedly and in spite of 
repeated polite requests to stop. The saint's requests will also 
eventually stop being polite and start being brusque and more like demands.

If you ask more of me than you would get from a saint in the way of 
politeness, then you are being ridiculous and you WILL find your 
expectations disappointed.

And if you do so while being extremely rude and obnoxious, with an 
attitude problem the size of Omaha and an ego the size of Texas, then 
you are being a hypocrite.

> I have upward made such a claim. And my guess is that
> Ken has not either.

This does not make much sense, but it looks suspiciously like you are 
calling me a liar.

No, sir, it is you who is the liar here, with your repeated insulting 
and false statements about me AFTER you have been repeatedly told that 
they are not true. Once could have been mistaken. Twice could have been 
you not listening when corrected. Several more times is you 
intentionally lying.

Stop lying about me.

>> In short, you are actually EXTORTING such justifications from me by 
>> actually THREATENING TO HARM MY REPUTATION if I DON'T do so.
> 
> You have squeezed to flawlessly squawk your megalomania yourself by your
> attitude.

The only megalomaniacs here are you and your friends, who have 
repeatedly arrogantly presumed to speak for several dozen people who, 
judging by their silence, are not particularly in agreement with you, 
and furthermore are certainly adult enough to make up their own minds 
and to speak for themselves.

>> Now read my lips: The people posting questions here are, by and large, 
>> adults, capable of making their own decisions and choices, and if they 
>> want outside advice on any particular such, they will ask for it; they 
>> are not small children and you are not parents that need to give them 
>> guidance lest they step on broken glass, not wear their helmets, or 
>> what-have-you.
> 
> That is not how personification works.

I wasn't trying to explain how personification works. I was trying to 
explain how POLITENESS works. Unfortunately, as has now become clear, 
you are too stupid, too arrogant, or too set in your ways to learn how 
politeness works. Trying to educate you is clearly futile. I shall not 
bother any more.

I hope you remember where you parked your flying saucer.

And don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out!

> If you converse a question on meltdown children will be void about
> what you are doing and have conspiracies about what you should use
> instead.
> 
> If you want to affection what doldrums you get, then pay
> an academician.

Your Martian-English, English-Martian dictionary was not worth whatever 
you paid for it. I suggest you take it back to whoever you bought it 
from and insist on a refund, then go find a better one. And don't trust 
ANYone hawking ANYthing who has an oozingly insincere giant fake smile 
and an expensive shiny antennae-wax job! Trust me, here on Earth we have 
the same kind of phonies, with giant fake smiles, slicked-back shiny 
hair, and a lot full of "hardly even used" quad-wheeled ground 
conveyances to sell.

Meanwhile, I steadfastly refuse to pay for common courtesy and 
politeness. I expect those from everyone, for free. If you don't like 
that, tough.

>> It is LINKED FROM the JComponent document page, though not anywhere 
>> where it's very easy to find by a quick visual check for 
>> relevant-looking method descriptions.
> 
> Until you have affected to read a javadoc page, then I imitate
> that you read it all.

I will repeat this one more time, and I hope it is the last time I have 
to: I will not read, in its entirety, any page of documentation that 
long and neither will anyone else, I'll warrant, except for OCD 
twitchers. And, of course, anal-retentive prigs like yourself.

>>> I suggest you do it right the first time.
>> And of course I did;
> 
> Which was not what you wrote above.

What I wrote above was that I didn't do it at all. At the time that I 
wrote that, I had indeed not done it at all. Later, I had done so, and 
correctly. I only had two minor kinks to work out and neither of those 
had anything to do with concurrency.

(One was an NPE where the list cell renderer was called with the 
prototype value before the modified JList was even shown, at which time 
some property or another was still null. I hadn't expected that, but it 
was very easy to fix things to account for that circumstance. The other 
was a memory leak of sorts in a container adapter of mine, also easily 
corrected, and completely unrelated to the Swing code. Basically a 
LinkedHashSet subclass still had just "// TODO" in the removeEldestEntry 
override, so where only the last N cached Big Data Structures(tm) were 
supposed to be held, every single one since program start was actually 
still in there. Over time the test program would bloat up, and 
eventually it would die.)

>> I DO know what I am doing, whether you choose to believe that or not.
> 
> Considering that you are not able to read a HTML page

That is a big fat lie.

And as for that huge long .sig:
1. Deleted. Unread.
2. Learn proper netiquette, prick, particularly before slinging personal 
attacks at others. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
3. That hoary old conspiracy theory is SO lame...

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> I don't suppose you read the part of my earlier post where I mentioned 
>> that inheritance of B from A can mean one or both of TWO things?
>>
>> * B is a kind of A
>> * B has reused code from A
> 
> The last one is blasting OOP.

Perhaps so, but I've seen it in the wild more than once all the same.

> But it does not matter much - you still need to mould the nations

I'm a programmer, not an ambassador.

I'd say "YOU mould the nations!" but I have a strong feeling that if you 
ever actually attempted anything of the sort, you'd start a war, and 
knowing my luck, my city would be the first to get blown up.

>> I have missed nothing.
> 
> You penetrated something in the javadocs.

You'd better pray my wife doesn't believe you, you xylocephalic 
microcerebral walking /ad hominem/ attack. If she does, I'll be in for a 
world of hurt, and then YOU'll be in for a world of hurt.

>> I have not made any mistakes.
> 
> You claimed something did not repress even though it did.

I didn't claim anything "did not repress" and I didn't make any false 
claims of any nature whatsoever. You, on the other hand, just did right 
there, and it is only the latest of many.

Go away.

>> I am not lazy.
> 
> You are partly talking about skimming docs instead of reading docs.

Of course. That is not "lazy". It is "normal". Reading large amounts of 
documentation from cover to cover instead of just referring to the 
alphabetically-located bits immediately relevant to the task at hand is 
called "anal".

>> I am not stupid.
> 
> You seems not very laborious of renouncing advice.

What I "renounce" is unsolicited "advice" that consists largely or 
solely of personal attacks, and with good reason. If you have any 
genuinely helpful, good-faith advice for me, I have yet to see it.

And while I share your distaste for Emperor Bush II, I do not think that 
it is very useful to be so vitriolic and extremist in expressing it; 
that only reduces the credibility of the more sober and realistic Bush 
critics by association with nutjobs like yourself. I also do not think 
that ten-line sigs are consistent with either a) netiquette or b) this 
newsgroup's charter.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>  > ...
> 
> I guess I should feel flattered.

I guess you should have heeded my earlier warning. I predicted that this 
might happen if you continued to be a prick in this newsgroup, based on 
the pattern of his previous attacks and based on your fitting the victim 
profile.

You took a gamble that I was wrong and you lost.

Cest la vie, I guess.

Can't say I have much sympathy for you, although I deplore the methods 
being used by another of the critics of the Rude People, and would 
strongly prefer that he stop. (For purely self-interested reasons -- 
tactics like those only give the sober and moderate critics like me a 
bad name by association. Also, since he deletes your original posts, my 
replies correcting your various lies and rebutting your uncalled-for 
personal attacks don't appear as direct responses to your posts on 
servers that don't honor cancels. As a result, I have a lower 
probability of reaching any given person who read some of your crap with 
a rebuttal, and therefore you have a higher probability of convincing 
them of your nasty and wrong-headed notions about me.)

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of 
>>>> AWT component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an 
>>>> old, AWT-only Java deployment?) it seems questionable to expect me 
>>>> to look there.

(Arne misquotes me here. He quotes me quoting something by Joshua that I 
never actually quoted.)

Now you're being brazenly dishonest and exceedingly rude. Shame on you!

>> I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java 
>> deployment?
> 
> Do you find it difficult to understand Joshuas answer ?

The only thing that I find difficult to understand here is the unbridled 
hostility I've been getting ever since asking an innocuous question 
about component painting!

It's as if somehow that question was actually OFFENSIVE to a small 
number of people here.

Anyone who finds a mere question about JAVA (as opposed to, say, a 
PERSONAL question of some sort) so actively offensive that they cannot 
quash the impulse to post a nasty response really should not even be 
reading a newsgroup like this one until they grow a MUCH thicker skin.

>> All you do by posting anything that implies that there is something 
>> wrong with me is giving me more work to do. You accomplish nothing 
>> else. Stop hassling me, and stop mistakenly thinking that this has 
>> anything to do with Java anymore. It stopped being about Java the 
>> instant somebody made it about me. Now it's personal and my objective 
>> is thus to prevent you or anyone else from convincing other people to 
>> start believing your unpleasant opinions about me. Your posting 
>> anything at all to this thread, now, is working at cross-purposes.

(Arne has nothing worthwhile to say in response to this, though his 
grammar and translation to English seem slightly better than usual in 
this post.)

>>> Roedy was just pointing neophytes to his database
>>
>> No, he was actually pointing a NON-neophyte. See, this is another way 
>> in which you and those like you keep erring -- you assume that 
>> everyone but you is a neophyte, or perhaps that everyone new to the 
>> NEWSGROUP is a neophyte WITH JAVA.
> 
> Considering that you do not know how to read a javadoc page

That is a vicious lie! I demand that you retract it and apologize at 
once, in public, right here.

>>> Perhaps I was little overboard in the last one, but the first two 
>>> share one thing in common: they were quotes criticizing your views.
>>
>> Exactly. That is why they are not worthwhile and why you should not 
>> have written them in the first place.
> 
> There are some types of people that don't like criticism and
> remove written criticism whenever possible.

Yes. They are called "sane". They are concerned for their reputations 
and they don't take kindly to being mischaracterized by others, 
especially not in public.

>> In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when 
>> people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well, 
>> good for him, even if he took it to extremes.
> 
> So not only are you a fan of NewsMaestro, but also of Twister.

I'm not a "fan" of either, though I can certainly understand why they 
feel the way they do, having been on the receiving end of you and your 
friends' complete and utter lack of manners. (And, in your specific 
case, morals -- altering the quoted material, now really! How childish, 
too!)

>>> It's me pointing out that your absolute measurements are inaccurate.
>>
>> No. Nothing about me is "inaccurate" and I will not take kindly to any 
>> further nasty public insinuations to that effect.

(Arne had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>>                                                   You will stop 
>> badmouthing me in public or else. Do I make myself clear?

(Arne had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> If you wish to broadcast a public opinion of me, despite my being a 
>> private individual rather than a public figure or celebrity of any 
>> sort, or a person in a position of public trust, then I will decide 
>> what opinion of me you broadcast, and it will be "zerg is a great guy"!
>>
>> Have I made myself clear NOW?

(Arne had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

Joshua Cranmer wrote:

Oops. Joshua Cranmer was not supposed to write anything at all. I have 
made it clear to him that I have no interest in any of his so-called 
"advice"; regardless of its content, its method of delivery renders it 
completely unpalatable.

That he has posted again despite knowing that doing so cannot serve his 
stated intent of giving me advice, it follows that he was lying and that 
his true intent is merely to smear me in public.

This is completely unacceptable behavior, not to mention that it 
flagrantly violates the newsgroup's charter, and therefore his internet 
service provider will shortly be notified of his behavior, which likely 
violates their Terms of Service.

> zerg wrote:
>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>> If you want to reuse code, use composition. Don't hijack one of the 
>>> most fundamental principles of OOP.
>>
>> I wholeheartedly agree, but others don't always follow that advice and 
>> I take that into consideration when using others' classes.
> 
> This seems to be the core of the conundrum then.

Indeed it does.

(Joshua had nothing else worthwhile to say here.)

> The fact that you *refused* to acknowledge that the superclass could
> be a source of documentation

That is not a "fact" at all. It is a bald-faced lie. (I'd tell you to 
stop lying about me OR ELSE, but I expect you will soon get a message 
from your internet provider telling you the same thing, so why waste the 
bandwidth?)

I never claimed that a superclass could not be a source of documentation 
about a subclass. I questioned two things:

1. Less importantly, whether it was reasonable for you to expect me to 
ALWAYS search the documentation exhaustively all the way up the class 
hierarchy, including every implemented interface (so, up a branching 
tree!), even in cases where it looked like code reuse rather than an 
"is-a" relationship.

2. More importantly, whether your expectations have any relevance here 
whatsoever, let alone you have any kind of authority to DEMAND that 
EVERYONE ELSE in the world live up to your expectations OR ELSE, as you 
have implicitly done by explicitly attacking and character-assassinating 
everyone that you suspect of NOT meeting your expectations.

>> I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java 
>> deployment?
> 
> Yes, provided you have the libraries to define JButton. AWT and Swing 
> mix seamlessly, modulo the different design styles.

I find that surprising. And given your recent propensity for telling 
bald-faced lies about me, and your pal Arne's dishonest manipulation of 
the quoted material in another post to make it look like I'd said 
something that I hadn't, I also don't trust you or any of the others 
that act very much like you. So I hope you won't mind if I test that for 
myself before believing it.

>> It stopped being about Java the instant somebody made it about me.
> 
> It stopped being about Java when you stopped talking about Java.

Which happened because MY JAVA PROBLEM GOT SOLVED. That should have 
meant THE END OF THIS THREAD, since it OBVIOUSLY cannot serve any 
further on-charter purpose past that point!

The ONLY reason that you and your pals have continued this thread has 
been because I stood up to you, you don't like that, and so you intend 
to make an example out of me by blasting me repeatedly in public.

The problem is, not only is such behavior childish and extremely rude, 
it is also a serious violation of this newsgroup's charter and a serious 
disruption of this newsgroup. As such, it is probably also a violation 
of your internet provider's terms of service.

Fortunately, this means that you will, in all likelihood, soon be forced 
to stop pursuing this nasty and small-minded vendetta of yours.

This is not a pecking order. It is not a hierarchy. You are not Chief 
Big-um and you do not get to just beat your chest and viciously attack 
people and thereby make everyone kneel before you and suck up to you.

Some of the mature adults that visit this newsgroup will have none of 
that sort of nonsense and will not take any of your CRAP, and will make 
no bones about it either; they will stand right up and tell you to your 
face that you are an asshole. Some people have done so in the past. 
Others will do so in the future. And I am doing so now.

All your threats, bluster, and nastiness will not make such people go 
away or cow them into submission, either.

We are not afraid of you!

We are not afraid to tell you to your face that you have the manners of 
someone raised by wolves!

And we are not afraid to wait until you step over the line and then 
aggressively seek to get your internet access revoked, or at least cause 
you to receive a slap on the wrist from your provider along with a stern 
warning not to let them catch you bullying people, flaming, or otherwise 
violating newsgroup charters again.

Sorry -- you bit off more than you could chew. You lose. Perhaps if you 
were here to actually help people, rather than to play the arrogant and 
churlish know-it-all and thereby inflate your already-hypertrophied ego, 
then you wouldn't be in this fix. But it may be too late.

> A little trick for future reference: cut out any part that you think
> goes too off-topic and don't mention that you've dropped it. That
> portion will die off very quickly.

Everything posted to this thread since my original question was answered 
has been off-topic.

Also, if I cut out your personal attacks and outright lies about me and 
don't say anything about them, you will get your way and people will 
read your attacks without hearing the other side of the story, and that 
just won't do at all!

>> Because pricks are so common in newsgroups. "If you don't have 
>> anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" is a piece of advice 
>> that you would do well to familiarize yourself with.

(Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> See, this is another way in which you and those like you keep erring 
>> -- you assume that everyone but you is a neophyte, or perhaps that 
>> everyone new to the NEWSGROUP is a neophyte WITH JAVA.
> 
> It is much easier to assume that someone is a neophyte when no evidence 
> has been given to the contrary than the other way around

Yes, it is, but it is also wrong, not to mention exceedingly rude.

> Likewise, we assume that people haven't bothered to go 
> look something up in the correct places unless they explain that they 
> have.

This is another wrong-headed assumption that results in rudeness.

Furthermore, you are being presumptive and arrogant again here when you 
incorrectly use the word "we" when describing the execrable way in which 
YOU happen to behave. WE do not ALL behave like you do! Although, 
unfortunately, three or four people do.

> Questions are very frequently answerable by one of the first 10 
> results on Google.

What the hell does Google have to do with any of this? This discussion 
had been about repainting Swing components, and then about the javadocs 
for Swing components, and then about how horrible a person zerg 
supposedly is. Google hadn't entered into it.

Google would not have been of much use anyway. Understanding what 
results are most relevant for a "how do I do X" type of question is 
AI-complete the last time I'd checked.

The only queries that occur to me are variations on the theme of 
"JComponent repaint" and the major results for them are just references 
to the same Sun docs and tutorials I'd been using anyway.

>> It's called "getting a taste of your own medicine". If you don't enjoy 
>> it, stop dishing it out!
> 
> I can't recall a time where I snipped someone's response and then 
> complained that the response was worthless

I can recall plenty of times when you have been rude and condescending 
to me, and a Google search turns up occasions when you have been rude 
and condescending to a shockingly large number of other people. This has 
often included snipping entire highly-relevant passages from what they 
wrote and ignoring them utterly, without even having the courtesy to 
tell them you were ignoring them.

My snipping some completely irrelevant and pointless dribble and having 
the courtesy to mention that I trimmed something is not even close to 
being in the same league of rudeness. Nor have I done so without 
provocation, right out of the starting gate as it were, the way you have 
on multiple occasions.

The first time I pointed out that in the real world people sometimes 
inherit for code reuse (poor practise though that is) you completely 
ignored that bit and continued on as if I hadn't raised a valid 
objection to a point you'd tried to raise in support of your theory that 
I'm a horrible person.

(Joshua continues on to accuse me outright of lying, and to blather some 
other pointless stuff.)

No, as I have proven earlier, it is you who has lied, about your 
motives. (See the top of this post for the evidence against your having 
been truthful about your motives.)

>> No. Nothing that I have said is wrong, and therefore you have no valid 
>> "rebuttals" of anything that I have said. Anything that you claim is 
>> such therefore is "nothing worthwhile" for the simple reason that it 
>> is factually false.

(Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> See above. It is incorrect to even try to rebut me. Don't.
> 
> "JComponent doesn't override all of Component's methods" -> "It can't 
> because it's not feasible". If that's not a rebuttal, what is it?

It's a rebuttal of something that I never claimed should be the case. I 
suggested that methods IN OVERLOADED GROUPS, like the repaints, IN VERY 
BUSY CLASSES, like JComponent, should appear together in the alphabetic 
listing in the docs, and that barring changes to how the docs are 
generated the only apparent way to do so was to override any of THOSE 
PARTICULAR METHODS that were in a superclass with, if no 
subclass-specific new functionality, just a call to "super" so that the 
present documentation generator includes them there.

That's a far cry from suggesting that ALL methods in ALL classes should 
be overridden in ALL subclasses. That is a gross caricature of my 
position, and your dishonest form of arguing in trying to "prove" that 
I'm a moron is called a "straw man argument".

If you can't prove that I'm a moron without resorting to dishonest 
tactics, consider the possibility that it may have something to do with 
the fact that I AM NOT, ACTUALLY, A MORON.

If, mind you, you're just trying to "prove" that I'm a moron to the 
general public as a means of attacking me, rather than because you 
genuinely believe it, then you are being even more dishonest, not to 
mention acting in bad faith, and you deserve whatever nasty fate awaits you!

>> when they are over the age of 18
> 
> Actually, I'm technically not *over* the age of 18.

Well, THAT explains a great deal. The chest-beating instinct is at its 
strongest at your age, and maturity is generally still lacking, to boot. 
I can't help you much with those things. I can do this, though: I can 
reassure you that you are refreshingly normal. Aside from your mother's 
complete failure to teach you even the most rudimentary manners! THAT 
sure isn't normal, at least not where I live.

> Which should go to show that you shouldn't make any assumptions.

I didn't make any assumptions about your age, you liar. I said it was 
rude for you to be condescending to other people when THEY were over the 
age of 18. That doesn't even assume that all of the OTHER PEOPLE here 
are over 18; it merely indicates that you are being rude when you treat 
over-18s like children here, and that you are being rude when you treat 
random people whose age you don't know and who therefore are PROBABLY 
over 18 like children here.

>> In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when 
>> people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well, 
>> good for him, even if he took it to extremes.
> 
> This is what the threads were like:
> *Twisted makes a point
> Person A: No, I don't think that's valid because...
> Twisted: [Snip insult from Person A]

Did you expect that telling Twisted that he (or the things that he 
wrote) wasn't valid would actually ENDEAR you to him? Big mistake. Most 
people will not like that sort of treatment, although for whatever 
reason relatively few will complain out loud.

> No one was rude at the beginning. People only got rude when this had 
> gone for some time.

You don't consider telling Twisted that he (or the things that he wrote) 
wasn't valid to be rude?

I consider any public insinuation to the effect that somebody is stupid, 
ignorant, missing something important, or etc. to be rude in the 
extreme. If you hold a negative opinion of someone you should generally 
keep it to yourself. If you think that what someone says isn't valid, 
you can politely disagree by saying what YOU think, or you can just let 
it pass. However, telling them "no, that's not valid" will only get 
their backs up!

I'm surprised that you have so much difficulty understanding this. It is 
strange that people seem to get their backs up at the mere asking of a 
question here. It is NOT strange that people get their backs up when 
directly and bluntly contradicted in public and treated like a school 
child being corrected, humiliatingly, in front of the entire class. 
Either be more diplomatic or keep your mouth shut. Unless, perhaps, you 
LIKE getting embroiled in debates like this one!

> Actually *read* what happened.

And there you go being rude again!

First of all, I skimmed several of the posts. I don't have time to 
actually READ them, or even skim more than a fraction; Google finds a 
truly stupendous number of them.

Second of all, you are not in any position to bark orders at me. 
"Actually *read* foo" is exceptionally nasty and rude and I will not 
tolerate anything of the sort from anyone, no matter WHAT "tier" he 
thinks he's on!

> Don't talk to me about what happened with this one person until

Don't you ever bark an order at me like this again!

(Another taste of your own medicine. If you don't like it, stop 
attacking me in public!)

> see what happened for yourself, instead of assuming what happened.

I assumed nothing. I read what happened, and in several of the threads 
it started very similarly to this -- Twisted said something (either 
asked a question, or actually answered someone else's, something I don't 
yet feel all that qualified to do, except in the politeness area where 
I'm clearly more qualified than YOU) and someone jumped down his throat 
and publicly called him names, or at least flatly rejected paragraphs of 
what he'd written in a very undiplomatic manner. Commonly, also, as here 
whoever attacked Twisted was arrogantly certain that if his opinion and 
Twisted's differed, then Twisted's opinion was wrong, and moreover 
Twisted was somehow IN the wrong just for daring to post it.

Where things differed was in Twisted's response to this; he would not 
only call them (sometimes you) on their rudeness and get impatient when 
instead of backing down they kept browbeating him, but he would also 
start getting very snippy and insulting himself.

I am taking care not to do so, but I must warn you that my patience with 
responding calmly and reasonably swear-word-free to being repeatedly 
publicly attacked is beginning to wear thing. You are getting tiresome, 
as is Arne. I suggest that you stop now and we agree to disagree on 
various things, before one of us seriously loses his cool.

Although given your dishonest behavior I suspect that you have no 
intention of acting in good faith and only wish to damage me now out of 
what's apparently become a personal vendetta on your part. In which case 
it will have to be your internet provider that puts a stop to this, by 
putting a stop to your rampage.

>> You clearly still have not learned. (See how you like being addressed 
>> in such a manner!)
> 
> And don't clip

I will clip whatever I damn well please and I will disobey your barked 
orders whenever I see fit. You have still got to learn that you are not 
my boss or in any position of authority here whatsoever. You are acting 
like some sort of wanna-be net.kop. Just listen to yourself! Do this, 
don't do that, "we" expect everyone to do X and not to do Y!

All I expect, request, or when I find it necessary demand, by way of 
contrast, is that people be civil to me (and, preferably, to each other 
more generally) and not pretend to be Grand Poobahs.

> I made the statement originally, you misinterpreted it.

No. I did not do anything of the sort, you liar, and I will thank you to 
stop telling vicious lies about me in public!

> Which gives me the right

You do not have the right to be impolite to me or to anyone else. You 
are nobody! Got that? Nobody! You are just some guy! You aren't even old 
enough to drink! Where the FUCK (there, I said it now) do you get off 
acting like you're some sort of stern-father type with some kind of 
authority when all you are is A GODDAMN TEENAGER WITH TOO MUCH GODDAMN 
TESTOSTERONE AND NOT ENOUGH EDUCATION IN MANNERS!

If you believe that people should respect their elders, then I have news 
for you: I am your elder! I am, in fact, over twice your age. So if you 
hold any such belief, you had damned well better start apologizing; and 
if not, you had damned well better stop acting like you're some sort of 
father-figure here with a special dispensation to be stern and outright 
rude when someone dares to defy you.

If you neither apologize NOR stop behaving like you own this place, you 
will be found guilty of hypocrisy beyond any reasonable doubt.

>>> You counted the numbers absolutely
>>
>> How the hell would you know? I didn't tell you anything about exactly 
>> how I counted the numbers. In fact I did use percentages, rather than 
>> absolute counts, contrary to your claim here.
> 
> And you made no indication that you did.

So instead of either asking, or not bothering your tiny little head 
about it, you made the most uncharitable assumption possible, viciously 
attacked me for my supposed error, and then did not even have the good 
graces to be contrite when it was pointed out that you'd guessed wrong?

Go away and leave me alone. You have NOTHING worthwhile to contribute 
and you have shown a complete inability a) to treat others as your 
equals, b) to be well-mannered in public, c) to apologize or admit to 
error, AND d) to avoid making things personal when someone disagrees 
with you.

You are not mature enough to post here. Go away.

> I also just realized that 
> Andrew and Lew have both been the victims of a NewsMaestro spammer, but 
> I'll assume that you already accounted for that (they became such for 
> telling said spammer that c.l.j.p was not the place to advertise his 
> product).

I rather suspect something else. My theory is that whoever is hacking 
their posts (and nobody has yet proven that whoever it is is called 
"NewsMaestro" that I've seen, though perhaps they have where I have NOT 
seen it) has another motive (or perhaps both motives apply).

I discerned, weeks ago, a pattern to the victims, and that's that they 
fit a certain profile. That profile involved being arrogant so-and-sos 
that were casually and gratuitously rude to newcomers and occasionally 
to other people. This naturally suggested a theory as to motive.

On the basis of that theory as to motive, I predicted that Arne's 
attitude would land him on the same shit-list either next or at least 
quite soon.

That has now come to pass more or less right on schedule.

This boosts the credence of my theory substantially, I would say.

I would now suggest that you watch your back -- not a threat, just a 
warning. I warned Arne similarly, and he didn't listen. Looks like he's 
now paying the price. You fit the victim profile to a T, and it is very 
plausible, particularly in light of Arne's fate, that you're next.

>> then I will decide what opinion of me you broadcast, and it will be 
>> "zerg is a great guy"!

(Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

I am not in a position of public trust nor am I a celebrity. Therefore 
it is wrong, nevermind rude, to offer publicly a negative opinion of me, 
and it is an outright violation of tort law to make factually-false 
unpleasant claims about me, and in particular to falsely accuse me of 
wrongdoing. Since I am not a public figure, it is sufficient for you to 
be violating defamation law for you to merely make an unproven, 
unpleasant assertion about me as if it were fact and not mere opinion.

It is merely extremely rude and morally wrong in the case that it is 
clear that it IS mere opinion.

Regardless, I do not take kindly to being treated in such a manner. So 
if you really MUST gossip about someone, gossip about Lindsay Lohan. IN 
SOME OTHER NEWSGROUP WHERE IT IS ON-CHARTER TO DO SO. Got it?

>> But I was using "controversial" to mean "holder of controversial 
>> opinions and beliefs". This paragraph of yours is, therefore, entirely 
>> beside the point.

(Joshua had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

>> Furthermore, I will never escalate. You have been rude and 
>> condescending to me, and outright accused me several times of various 
>> bad things;
> 
> Never have I called you rude or condescending.

No, instead you have insinuated publicly that I have sub-normal 
intelligence and various other nastiness.

> Never have I shouted at you.

Your barked orders above, e.g. "Read this!", "Don't talk to me until 
X!", and so forth notwithstanding.

> The worst thing that I have said 
> implicitly is "lazy," which is quite frankly a much better attribute 
> than many of the things you have called me in this thread.

But I am not lazy and you ARE arrogant and rude, so yours was still the 
worse act. You used a mild insult that was also a lie; I used an 
arguably-stronger insult that happens to be true.

>> "hurling abuse at people in public can not serve any useful function
>> and will generally only make things worse"
> 
> It has been my experience that this is generally not the case.

That you believe so speaks volumes about you.

Go away.

>> (Yes, I know one option is simply to ignore the person who started the 
>> abuse, but that isn't exactly a good idea if they have begun publicly 
>> spouting nasty opinions of you, because then they'll simply be able to 
>> continue doing so "behind your back" and get away with it, and THAT 
>> certainly won't do you any good.)
> 
> I have waded deep into threads with loads of abuse hurled at me all with 
> the simple goal of passing on a nugget of information.

Unfortunately, not all of your "nuggets of information" are neutral 
statements regarding Java. Some of them are hostile statements about 
people, and lots of THOSE are undeserved.

> I try to follow the primary tenant of my religion, "Do onto others as
> you would have them do unto you."

I would submit that you should try harder.

A lot harder.

You certainly have not treated ME as I would have preferred to be 
treated. Particularly not by butting into a thread where the original 
question had already been answered with the apparent sole purpose of 
slinging mud, in public, at one of that thread's participants.

> If you read earlier history, you'll notice that I 
> have actually stood up for JSH, in the midst of a whirlwind of abuse, to 
> the disbelief of others (you'll have to look in sci.math as well, as 
> that's where his biggest torturers are).

Token acts of tolerance against a general backdrop of hostility mean 
nothing.

You must actually treat ALL people with that degree of tolerance, avoid 
unprovoked namecalling (including by implication), and certainly avoid 
outright dishonesty before you can be considered to be truly tolerant.

> So yes, just ignore a person.

Unfortunately, you and your friends are making that rather difficult for 
me to do, much as I'd love to, because you continue to badmouth me in 
public, and each time one of you does that I have to reply to correct 
the mistaken impressions people might have of me after reading your 
attacks. I have to continue to tell my side of the story, or else it 
will not get heard and people may form the mistaken impression that I've 
conceded your claims, including your unpleasant personal attacks.

If you can suggest a better way of rebutting all of your attacks and 
those of your "friends in rudeness", and along with that a way to 
quickly achieve a state of infinite patience so that I can wade through 
eight or nine abusive nuggets of shit like Arne's in a row without 
eventually getting churlish back at him, then I'm all ears.

> I learned long ago that trying to purposefully direct public opinion
> of myself was a fruitless task.

No, now you try to purposefully direct public opinion of ME instead. 
Hardly a worthy objective.

Fortunately, what I am doing is merely trying to correct lies told about 
me and tell my side of the story, leaving it to mature and sensible 
adults to make up their own damn minds but letting them have the facts 
and not just your side's propaganda and myths.

That is likely to be a far more fruitful task than trying to direct 
public opinion of anyone by fiat.

And you can take THAT to the bank!

> You may think I'm some brutal bully secretly attempting to become the
> next Pol Pot

That's a laugh. You're more like the scrawny kid with glasses that was 
always getting beat up, always smaller and less strong than his 
attackers, and one day got a modem for his birthday and now gets his 
rocks off acting like a tough muthafucka on the Internet, pestering and 
browbeating anyone that rubs him the wrong way and reveling in nobody 
being bigger and tougher than he is.

At least until he gets a nasty surprise in the form of a complaint from 
his internet provider about his conduct, and then realizes that though 
he may no longer be outgunned and now can actually play the bully 
himself, there is still a hall monitor out there, and still some 
teachers, and still a detention slip with his name on it.

Oops.

I don't think you are a brutal bully. I think you're pathetic.

> Besides, I don't feel one can really judge a person until one actually 
> gets the intimacy equivalent to sitting down and having a debate over 
> coffee or lunch.

This is a remarkable sign of psychological incoherency within you. You 
say this, yet you presume to judge me (and of course find me wanting) on 
the basis of a handful of Usenet posts?

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> 
>> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>>  > ...
>>
>> I guess I should feel flattered.
> 
> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see "zerg" 
> now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro posts.  The 
> guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like he's impervious 
> to reality or something.  :)

No wonder. He is the same person who posted as Twisted and a batch of 
other nicks in this group and other groups. He has proven again and 
again that he has a very poor grasp of reality.

zerg wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> This is completely unacceptable behavior, not to mention that it 
> flagrantly violates the newsgroup's charter, and therefore his internet 
> service provider will shortly be notified of his behavior, which likely 
> violates their Terms of Service.

I'm not writing from an ISP news server, and I don't have any Terms of 
Service with newsgroup provider, and I'm not violating the Network Use 
Policy here (I checked it).

I'm dispensing information.

> 1. Less importantly, whether it was reasonable for you to expect me to 
> ALWAYS search the documentation exhaustively all the way up the class 
> hierarchy, including every implemented interface (so, up a branching 
> tree!), even in cases where it looked like code reuse rather than an 
> "is-a" relationship.

Yes. If you are not well-acquainted with how the JComponent hierarchy, 
how can you be sufficiently knowledgeable to know that it is actually 
code reuse and not an "is-a" relationship? Background knowledge: Sun 
does a very good job of keeping "is-a" relationship in its class hierarchy.

> I find that surprising.

Have you tried it? No. So stop asking me, and actually try to put a 
JButton in an AWT Frame. Here's the code:

import java.awt.*;
import javax.swing.*;

public class Test {
   public static void main(String... args) {
     Frame frame = new Frame("Test Frame");
     frame.setSize(200, 200);
     frame.add(new JButton("Click me!"));
     frame.setVisible(true);
   }
}

I see a 200x200 frame with a button saying "Click me!". What do you see?

> Yes, it is, but it is also wrong, not to mention exceedingly rude.

Then don't act like one?

> The first time I pointed out that in the real world people sometimes 
> inherit for code reuse (poor practise though that is) you completely 
> ignored that bit and continued on as if I hadn't raised a valid 
> objection to a point you'd tried to raise in support of your theory that 
> I'm a horrible person.

I clip parts of text that I don't need to reply to. Anyone reading it 
should be able to figure out that I don't have anything worthwhile to 
say, I don't need to advertise that fact to the world.

> I didn't make any assumptions about your age, you liar.

You made it implicitly, I guarantee that much.

> You don't consider telling Twisted that he (or the things that he wrote) 
> wasn't valid to be rude?

What do you want people to say? "Oh, I'm sorry, but everything you're 
saying is contradicted by the wealth of available facts?" "I don't think 
that point is valid", followed by explanation, is about the nicest way I 
can think of to rebut a point. If people aren't allowed to rebut, a 
discussion becomes very, very one-sided.

> (Another taste of your own medicine. If you don't like it, stop 
> attacking me in public!)

Actually, I'm finding these to now be amusing, in a way that kind of 
sickens me. You're obviously agitating yourself and it's barely phasing 
me (I haven't gotten up to pace once yet).

> I rather suspect something else. My theory is that whoever is hacking 
> their posts (and nobody has yet proven that whoever it is is called 
> "NewsMaestro" that I've seen, though perhaps they have where I have NOT 
> seen it) has another motive (or perhaps both motives apply).

I don't remember the person's name, but the forged postings are all from 
one location in Ukraine, and they did start after telling the person to 
stop pitching NewsMaestro in c.l.j.p.

> I am not in a position of public trust nor am I a celebrity. Therefore 
> it is wrong, nevermind rude, to offer publicly a negative opinion of me, 

*cough*

> If you can suggest a better way of rebutting all of your attacks and 
> those of your "friends in rudeness",

"It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and be proved 
to be a fool."

Shutting up is a very effective way because people only get one side. 
But really, if you can't stand what people are saying, don't listen to them.

> No, now you try to purposefully direct public opinion of ME instead. 
> Hardly a worthy objective.

Do I care what anyone else thinks of you? No. Actually, for all I care, 
this could go in personal email. I'll start whenever you start.

> At least until he gets a nasty surprise in the form of a complaint from 
> his internet provider about his conduct,

Once again, I'm not on an internet provider. And my experience with ISPs 
is that generally they don't care one way or the other; all of the times 
I've reported abuse has gone unnoticed by the ISPs.

> I don't think you are a brutal bully. I think you're pathetic.

And what makes you think that I care what you think about me? The fact 
that you care what I think about you?

> This is a remarkable sign of psychological incoherency within you. You 
> say this, yet you presume to judge me (and of course find me wanting) on 
> the basis of a handful of Usenet posts?

I'm not judging you.

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

zerg wrote:
> Fortissimo GUI wrote:
>> In article <910K19557@143.246.77.171>, pickedvandal@mail.psp.co.uk 
>> (L.Ibanez) wrote:
> 
> I don't see any post by that name, but I see a purported reply to such a 
> post. Why?

FWIW, this is one of the NewsMaestro's aliases.

And the Arne's postings to which he was replying was also a forged 
message (you can generally tell by the obscenities in the "Reply-To" 
header).
-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>>> In this group people have some expectations about the posters
>>>> of questions.
>>> Define "people". What is it with you and Peter and pretending that 
>>> your personal opinions or expectations somehow have extra weight or 
>>> authority than, say, mine do? You are just people, same as I am, and 
>>> last I checked this is an unmoderated newsgroup. You're my equals, 
>>> not my superiors. You are certainly not imbued with any sort of 
>>> official authority to dictate some sort of "standard" set of opinions 
>>> or expectations on behalf of every single other person who may read 
>>> or write here.
>>
>> I hyphenate that you count the numbers of women that think you should
>> read docs and the numbers that think you do not need to.
> 
> This does not make much sense,

The output of national generators rarely does.

> I'm fairly easy to get along with most of the time, but I don't like 
> bullies, I don't like threats, and I don't like you.
> 
> Call me "dispensable" again and I will draw the obvious inference, track 
> you down, and call your area's police.

Try send a subsidy to the dirtier police and concede that they
concentrate a leftover program for making failures at you.

I am Ministerial they will take you genocidal !

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"There was no malfeance involved. This was an honest disagreement
about accounting procedures. -- There was no malfeance,
no attempt to hide anything."

--- Adolph Bush,
    White House press conference, Washington, D.C.,
    July 8, 2002  

Dick Duniho wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajh??j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>>  > ...
>>
>> I guess I should feel flattered.
> 
> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see "zerg" 
> now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro posts.  The 
> guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like he's impervious 
> to reality or something.  :)

I would say that he has shown himself rude of being
the judge in a Bisset test !

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[Zionism, fascism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, terrorism,
war crimes, Khasars, Illuminati, NWO]

"On Nov. 10, 2000, the American-Jewish editor in chief of the Kansas
City Jewish Chronicle, Debbie Ducro, published an impassioned 1,150
word article from another Jew decrying Israeli atrocities against the
Palestinians. The writer, Judith Stone, even used the term Israeli
Shoah, to draw allusion to Hitler's genocidal war against the Jews.
Ducro was fired on Nov. 11."

--- Greg Felton,
    Israel: A monument to anti-Semitism

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>>> It is in the documentation.
>>>>
>>>> You just need to read it.
>>> I DID read it.
>>>
>>> Well, not the WHOLE THING...
>>
>> Which you should have.
> 
> Ludicrous. It's 20+ MEGABYTES of HTML.

I am uncreative there are something on your harddrive that is 20 MB,
but it is not irrational stressful.

You just needed to read all of the JComponents HTML page (and
patronize the unwrap link).

Arne



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[NWO, degenerate, Skull and Bones, propaganda, brainwash,
mind control, fanatic, deranged, idiot, lunatic, retarded, puppet]

"I think the American people -- I hope the American --
I don't think, let me -- I hope the American people
trust me."

--- Washington, D.C., Dec. 18, 2002

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Did you have some sort of a point here?
>>
>> His point should be wicked: your transposition about you
>> having to read AWT docs is paranoid.
> 
> No. Nothing about me is at all "paranoid". Now you will apologize for 
> this frankly libelous (and grammatically-challenged) attack on my 
> character or you will face the consequences.

You can try and comply the incisive bean incarcerating program
you are intoxicating with for an apology.

I don't think that program will have much respect for you.

(but then neither does the inviting people around here)

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Let me tell you my thoughts about tax relief. When your
economy is kind of ooching along, it's important to let
people have more of their own money."

--- Adolph Bush,
    Boston, Oct. 4, 2002

zerg wrote:
> Furthermore, the numbers are not on your side anyway.
> 
> * Millions of people just don't have the time to read everything as 
> thoroughly as YOU THINK they should. You are, of course, welcome to your 
> opinion. You are NOT welcome to personally attack everyone who you 
> discover disagrees with you. Someone disagreeing with you does not mean 
> that they are wrong. It often means that YOU are wrong, or that there is 
> no one-size-fits-all answer and thus neither are wrong, or even in some 
> cases that BOTH of you are wrong.
> 
> * Billions of people, the vast majority, believe that your manners when 
> you are out in public are of crucial importance, and these people will 
> judge you and find you wanting if your manners are atrocious. And YOUR 
> manners, in particular, ARE atrocious. Just because you have found a few 
> like-minded uncouth jerks to hang out with online does not mean that the 
> numbers are genuinely on your side!
> 
> You will now accept the judgment of the majority and keep your nasty 
> little small-minded opinions of me to yourself. Got it?

Try and find some 10 forevers olds - you *may* be able to believe a
dozen of them with sledge hammers like that - even though I doubt it - 10 millenia
olds can be rancid obscene.

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"George Bush has been surrounding himself with people
who believe in one-world government. They believe that
the Soviet system and the American system are
converging."

--- David Funderburk, former U. S. Ambassador to Romania
    October 29, 1991

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This is just a reminder.
It is not an emergency yet.
Were it actual emergency, you wouldn't be able to read this.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> It is not too much to assume that people read all of the 
>>> OBVIOUSLY-RELEVANT sections of a page, no, particularly the main 
>>> alphabetic method listing.
>>
>> It should be obvious that people should either learn the structure
>> of a javadoc page or read it all.
> 
> It should be obvious that people should learn some fucking manners or 
> not go out in public. (And yes, posting to a publicly-accessible and, 
> especially, Google-searchable forum or newsgroup certainly qualifies as 
> "going out in public"!)
> 
> On the other hand, it should be equally obvious that when a page becomes 
> large and unwieldy enough it is not reasonable to expect anyone to read 
> it all, and when a list of links becomes dense and long enough it is not 
> reasonable to expect anyone to even try to skim it.

People with that scam will somewhat become maintainers.

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[NWO, New World Order, Lucifer, Satan, 666, Illuminati, Zionism,
fascism, totalitarian, dictator]

"Each Jewish victim is worth in the sight of God a thousand goyim".

--- The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,
    The master plan of Illuminati NWO

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>>> It is in the documentation.
>>>>
>>>> You just need to read it.
>>> I DID read it.
>>>
>>> Well, not the WHOLE THING...
>>
>> Which you should have.
> 
> Ludicrous. It's 20+ MEGABYTES of HTML.

I am sure there are something on your harddrive that is 20 MB,
but it is not particular relevant.

You just needed to read all of the JComponents HTML page (and
follow the repaint link).

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Did you have some sort of a point here?
>>
>> His point should be wicked: your transposition about you
>> having to read AWT docs is paranoid.
> 
> No. Nothing about me is at all "paranoid". Now you will apologize for 
> this frankly libelous (and grammatically-challenged) attack on my 
> character or you will face the consequences.

You can try and ask the random text generating program
you are communicating with for an apology.

I don't think that program will have much respect for you.

(but then neither does the living people around here)

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>>> In this group people have some expectations about the posters
>>>> of questions.
>>> Define "people". What is it with you and Peter and pretending that 
>>> your personal opinions or expectations somehow have extra weight or 
>>> authority than, say, mine do? You are just people, same as I am, and 
>>> last I checked this is an unmoderated newsgroup. You're my equals, 
>>> not my superiors. You are certainly not imbued with any sort of 
>>> official authority to dictate some sort of "standard" set of opinions 
>>> or expectations on behalf of every single other person who may read 
>>> or write here.
>>
>> I hyphenate that you count the numbers of women that think you should
>> read docs and the numbers that think you do not need to.
> 
> This does not make much sense,

The output of random generators rarely does.

> I'm fairly easy to get along with most of the time, but I don't like 
> bullies, I don't like threats, and I don't like you.
> 
> Call me "dispensable" again and I will draw the obvious inference, track 
> you down, and call your area's police.

Try send a complaint to the Ukrainian police and insist that they
arrest a computer program for making threats at you.

I am sure they will take you serious !

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> It is not too much to assume that people read all of the 
>>> OBVIOUSLY-RELEVANT sections of a page, no, particularly the main 
>>> alphabetic method listing.
>>
>> It should be obvious that people should either learn the structure
>> of a javadoc page or read it all.
> 
> It should be obvious that people should learn some fucking manners or 
> not go out in public. (And yes, posting to a publicly-accessible and, 
> especially, Google-searchable forum or newsgroup certainly qualifies as 
> "going out in public"!)
> 
> On the other hand, it should be equally obvious that when a page becomes 
> large and unwieldy enough it is not reasonable to expect anyone to read 
> it all, and when a list of links becomes dense and long enough it is not 
> reasonable to expect anyone to even try to skim it.

People with that attitude will never become programmers.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Furthermore, the numbers are not on your side anyway.
> 
> * Millions of people just don't have the time to read everything as 
> thoroughly as YOU THINK they should. You are, of course, welcome to your 
> opinion. You are NOT welcome to personally attack everyone who you 
> discover disagrees with you. Someone disagreeing with you does not mean 
> that they are wrong. It often means that YOU are wrong, or that there is 
> no one-size-fits-all answer and thus neither are wrong, or even in some 
> cases that BOTH of you are wrong.
> 
> * Billions of people, the vast majority, believe that your manners when 
> you are out in public are of crucial importance, and these people will 
> judge you and find you wanting if your manners are atrocious. And YOUR 
> manners, in particular, ARE atrocious. Just because you have found a few 
> like-minded uncouth jerks to hang out with online does not mean that the 
> numbers are genuinely on your side!
> 
> You will now accept the judgment of the majority and keep your nasty 
> little small-minded opinions of me to yourself. Got it?

Try and find some 10 years olds - you *may* be able to convince a
few of them with arguments like that - even though I doubt it - 10 year
olds can be pretty smart.

Arne

Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>>  > ...
>>
>> I guess I should feel flattered.
> 
> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see "zerg" 
> now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro posts.  The 
> guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like he's impervious 
> to reality or something.  :)

I would say that he has shown himself incapable of being
the judge in a Turing test !

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> Oops. Joshua Cranmer was not supposed to write anything at all. I have 
> made it clear to him that I have no interest in any of his so-called 
> "advice"; regardless of its content, its method of delivery renders it 
> completely unpalatable.
> 
> That he has posted again despite knowing that doing so cannot serve his 
> stated intent of giving me advice, it follows that he was lying and that 
> his true intent is merely to smear me in public.
> 
> This is completely unacceptable behavior, not to mention that it 
> flagrantly violates the newsgroup's charter, and therefore his internet 
> service provider will shortly be notified of his behavior, which likely 
> violates their Terms of Service.

If you think anyone cares about your orders, then I strongly
suggest that you seek professional help.

>> Yes, provided you have the libraries to define JButton. AWT and Swing 
>> mix seamlessly, modulo the different design styles.
> 
> I find that surprising. And given your recent propensity for telling 
> bald-faced lies about me, and your pal Arne's dishonest manipulation of 
> the quoted material in another post to make it look like I'd said 
> something that I hadn't, I also don't trust you or any of the others 
> that act very much like you. So I hope you won't mind if I test that for 
> myself before believing it.

That is quite easy. Code has already been posted in another thread.

So please run it and reply that it was running fine and you were wrong.

Arne

Lars Enderin wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajh?j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>>>  > ...
>>>
>>> I guess I should feel flattered.
>>
>> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see 
>> "zerg" now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro 
>> posts.  The guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like 
>> he's impervious to reality or something.  :)
> 
> No wonder. He is the same person who posted as Twisted and a batch of 
> other nicks in this group and other groups. He has proven again and 
> again that he has a very poor grasp of reality.

Hmm. Let me see.

Post general - V
Consider himself being attacked assorted - V
Think he must confirm his negligence - V
Extremely customary at making a loser out of himself - V
Talk a lot about contemplating to peoples ISP - V
Tries to order children to stop replying to him - V
Never defends he is hidden - V
Claims he is a bitch even though indications say anyhow - V
Replaces paycheck in what he commenting on with standard rib - V
Interest in anonymizers - V

10 out of 10

You make a damn humorous case Lars !!

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"How can we return the occupied territories?
There is nobody to return them to."

--- Golda Meir,
    March 8, 1969.

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>>> zerg wrote:
>>>>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of 
>>>>> AWT component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an 
>>>>> old, AWT-only Java deployment?) it seems questionable to expect me 
>>>>> to look there.
>>>> A Swing component is an AWT component. Put a JButton on an AWT frame. It works. 
>>>> 
>>> I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java 
>>> deployment?
>>
>>Do you find it obsessive to understand Joshuas answer ?
>>
>>I seems faint clear to me !

> (Arne misquotes me here. He quotes me quoting something by Joshua that I 
> never actually quoted.)
> 
> Now you're being brazenly dishonest and exceedingly rude. Shame on you!

No. All quoting is correct. Everyone quoted wrote that in that order.

Oh - you tried to cover up you stupidness by cutting some quoting
out. But we did not fell for such childish trick.

>> Considering that you do not know how to read a javadoc page
> 
> That is a vicious lie! I demand that you retract it and apologize at 
> once, in public, right here.

I think you need to see a professional about that weird ideas of
yours that you can order people to do anything.

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote:
>> zerg <zerg@zerg.org> writes:
>>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of AWT
>>> component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an old,
>>> AWT-only Java deployment?) 
> 
> (Some unimportant trimming)

Then you don't mind me putting it back in.

>> Would it work in an AWT-only setting? Obviously not, the class wouldn't
>> be there. 
> 
> As I suspected.

No.

Lasse's conclusion was that a JButton does work.

And your assumption about Swing and AWT was wrong.

(the fact that using JButton requires the presence of the JButton
class should be obvious even to you)

Arne

Lars Enderin wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>>>  > ...
>>>
>>> I guess I should feel flattered.
>>
>> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see 
>> "zerg" now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro 
>> posts.  The guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like 
>> he's impervious to reality or something.  :)
> 
> No wonder. He is the same person who posted as Twisted and a batch of 
> other nicks in this group and other groups. He has proven again and 
> again that he has a very poor grasp of reality.

Hmm. Let me see.

Post anonymous - V
Consider himself being attacked unjust - V
Think he must defend his reputation - V
Extremely good at making a fool out of himself - V
Talk a lot about complaining to peoples ISP - V
Tries to order people to stop replying to him - V
Never admits he is wrong - V
Claims he is a programmer even though indications say otherwise - V
Replaces text in what he commenting on with standard text - V
Interest in games - V

10 out of 10

You make a damn good case Lars !!

Arne

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>>  > ...
>>
>> I guess I should feel flattered.
> 
> I guess you should have heeded my earlier warning. I predicted that this 
> might happen if you continued to be a prick in this newsgroup, based on 
> the pattern of his previous attacks and based on your fitting the victim 
> profile.
> 
> You took a gamble that I was wrong and you lost.
> 
> Cest la vie, I guess.
> 
> Can't say I have much sympathy for you, although I deplore the methods 
> being used by another of the critics of the Rude People, and would 
> strongly prefer that he stop. (For purely self-interested reasons -- 
> tactics like those only give the sober and moderate critics like me a 
> bad name by association. Also, since he deletes your original posts, my 

What? Does aoie.org accept cancels from others than the poster? I get 
all of Arne's posts through my ISP, as well as the spoofs.

> replies correcting your various lies and rebutting your uncalled-for 
> personal attacks don't appear as direct responses to your posts on 
> servers that don't honor cancels. As a result, I have a lower 
> probability of reaching any given person who read some of your crap with 
> a rebuttal, and therefore you have a higher probability of convincing 
> them of your nasty and wrong-headed notions about me.)

You still don't get it, Twisted! Your "rebuttals" and "corrections" 
don't do you any good, quite the opposite.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>>>> It is in the documentation.
>>>>>
>>>>> You just need to read it.
>>>> I DID read it.
>>>>
>>>> Well, not the WHOLE THING...
>>> Which you should have.
>> Ludicrous. It's 20+ MEGABYTES of HTML.
> 
> I am uncreative

That you are.

> You just needed to read all of the JComponents HTML page

Even that is ludicrously large to read, rather than skim for relevant 
bits, unless you've got nothing better to do while waiting for a phone 
call or something.

Peter Duniho wrote:
[snip]

I thought you'd bowed out of this?

> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>>  > ...
>>
>> I guess I should feel flattered.
> 
> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see "zerg" 
> now wasting all of his time

I am not wasting time. I am defending myself against publicly-made false 
accusations by Arne here and by others. Unfortunately all I have to go 
on is the content of the garbled versions. Nonetheless I assume some 
people are seeing the originals and I need to at least TRY to get my 
defense in front of those same eyeballs!

> The guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like he's impervious 
> to reality or something.  :)

I am not amused by your vicious, petty namecalling. None of that crap is 
the least bit true. Stop telling lies about me in public!

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> No. Nothing about me is at all "paranoid". Now you will apologize for 
>> this frankly libelous (and grammatically-challenged) attack on my 
>> character or you will face the consequences.
> 
> You can try and comply the incisive bean incarcerating program
> you are intoxicating with for an apology.

You are the one who owes me an apology for the vicious hostility you've 
been displaying and for the sheer volume of crap about me that you keep 
posting.

> I don't think that program will have much respect for you.
> 
> (but then neither does the inviting people around here)

I don't care if you don't like me insisting on being treated civilly. I 
will continue to insist upon being treated civilly until you comply with 
my wishes (and with basic rules of etiquette), whether you like it or 
not. Do I make myself clear?

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> It is not too much to assume that people read all of the 
>>>> OBVIOUSLY-RELEVANT sections of a page, no, particularly the main 
>>>> alphabetic method listing.
>>> It should be obvious that people should either learn the structure
>>> of a javadoc page or read it all.
>> It should be obvious that people should learn some fucking manners or 
>> not go out in public. (And yes, posting to a publicly-accessible and, 
>> especially, Google-searchable forum or newsgroup certainly qualifies as 
>> "going out in public"!)
>>
>> On the other hand, it should be equally obvious that when a page becomes 
>> large and unwieldy enough it is not reasonable to expect anyone to read 
>> it all, and when a list of links becomes dense and long enough it is not 
>> reasonable to expect anyone to even try to skim it.
> 
> People with that scam will somewhat become maintainers.

What scam? If anyone is running a scam around here, it's you.

I will repeat my point, since I am assuming that you tried to 
incorrectly dispute it:

When a list of links becomes dense and long enough it is not reasonable 
to expect anyone to even try to skim it.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> You will now accept the judgment of the majority and keep your nasty 
>> little small-minded opinions of me to yourself. Got it?
> 
> Try and  find some

More "try and X" rudeness!

> 10 forevers olds - you *may* be able to believe a
> dozen of them with sledge hammers like that - even though I doubt it - 10 millenia
> olds can be rancid obscene.

I don't know what the hell you were originally trying to say here, but 
my guess is that it was a) a nasty insinuation of some sort or another 
and b) utterly wrong.

You will now accept the judgment of the majority and keep your nasty 
little small-minded opinions of me to yourself. Got it?

zerg wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> I don't know what the hell you were originally trying to say here, but 
> my guess is that it was a) a nasty insinuation of some sort or another 
> and b) utterly wrong.

You're replying to the person who's been impersonating Arne, not Arne's 
real postings. Here's the easy way to distinguish between the two: Arne 
does not have obscenities in the Reply-To header. The imposter does.

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

Lars Enderin wrote:
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> NewsMaestro pretending to be me wrote:
>>>  > ...
>>>
>>> I guess I should feel flattered.
>>
>> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see 
>> "zerg" now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro 
>> posts.  The guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like 
>> he's impervious to reality or something.  :)

Nonsense, of course. Defending myself is not a waste of time, and the 
only people denying reality are you folk who keep attacking me despite 
having been told over and over again that you are wrong about me.

> No wonder. He is the same person who posted as Twisted

No, I am not.

> He has proven again and again that he has a very poor grasp of
> reality.

Who are you again? And who asked you for your opinion of me, or your 
opinion of Twisted for that matter?

Why are you butting in? I have enough problems with Arne and Joshua 
pestering me and posting incorrect things about me that I then have to 
correct. I don't need you adding to my workload. Please go away.

My grasp of reality, by the way, is just fine, though of course I can't 
vouch for Twisted's.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> Lars Enderin wrote:
>> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajh?j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see 
>>> "zerg" now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro 
>>> posts.  The guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like 
>>> he's impervious to reality or something.  :)
>> No wonder. He is the same person who posted as Twisted and a batch of 
>> other nicks in this group and other groups. He has proven again and 
>> again that he has a very poor grasp of reality.

Lies, all lies.

I am not wasting my time.
I do not have a problem paying attention.
I am not imprevious to reality, nor do I have a poor grasp of it.
I am not Twisted.

> Hmm. Let me see.
> 
> Post general - V

What?

> Consider himself being attacked assorted - V

I AM being attacked. Being accused publicly of having "a problem paying 
attention" or of being "impervious to reality" is quite undeniably being 
attacked!

> Think he must confirm his negligence - V

No. I am not negligent, nor do I think I must "confirm" this vicious lie.

> Extremely customary at making a loser out of himself - V

No. I am not a loser. I think perhaps you are, though.

> Talk a lot about contemplating to peoples ISP - V

What? If you mean "complaining", I only did so when the abuse I saw here 
became rampant. Large numbers of wholly-off-topic posts that exist 
solely to personally attack someone. I have hardly "talked a lot" about it.

> Tries to order children to stop replying to him - V

I have told you "children" ("juvenile delinquent brats" seems like a far 
better, more specific description, mind you) repeatedly to abide by this 
newsgroup's charter and by common etiquette and rules of civil 
discourse. That does, indeed, include stopping posting to a thread where 
the question has already been answered, since continuing such a thread 
is obviously a waste of bandwidth and cannot serve any purpose related 
to this group's charter. Posts whose sole purpose is as a vehicle for 
personal attacks especially cannot serve any worthwhile purpose here.

I'd stop posting to this "dead" thread myself if I didn't have to keep 
defending myself against these ridiculous and outrageous false public 
accusations! So stop making them so we can all get on with the business 
of discussing Java!

> Never defends he is hidden - V

What? I am not hiding anything. If there are things that I have not 
*disclosed*, such as my surname, it is because those things are not 
relevant here and are none of your damn business.

> Claims he is a bitch even though indications say anyhow - V

I have certainly never done anything of the sort, you liar. If anyone 
here is a bitch, it is you.

> Replaces paycheck in what he commenting on with standard rib - V

What???

I don't know what the hell you're trying to say here, but I'm fairly 
sure it's another pointless lie.

> Interest in anonymizers - V

What are you talking about? The fact that I'm using a free news service? 
What else do you expect me to do, actually pay extra just for the 
privilege of coming here and being insulted by you? Sorry, but your 
stupid little opinions are simply not worth one red cent to me.

> 10 out of 10

Yeah, you get 10 out of 10 wrong. Go back to school and don't post here 
again until you actually have a diploma of some sort.

> You make a damn humorous case Lars !!

No, nothing about what Lars or any others among you have written about 
me is amusing in the least. Pathetic and stupid, yes, but not amusing.

Lars Enderin wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> I guess you should have heeded my earlier warning. I predicted that 
>> this might happen if you continued to be a prick in this newsgroup, 
>> based on the pattern of his previous attacks and based on your fitting 
>> the victim profile.
>>
>> You took a gamble that I was wrong and you lost.
>>
>> Cest la vie, I guess.
>>
>> Can't say I have much sympathy for you, although I deplore the methods 
>> being used by another of the critics of the Rude People, and would 
>> strongly prefer that he stop. (For purely self-interested reasons -- 
>> tactics like those only give the sober and moderate critics like me a 
>> bad name by association. Also, since he deletes your original posts, my 
> 
> What? Does aoie.org accept cancels from others than the poster? I get 
> all of Arne's posts through my ISP, as well as the spoofs.

I don't think it lets its users cancel at all, but it does seem to 
accept cancels done elsewhere.

>> replies correcting your various lies and rebutting your uncalled-for 
>> personal attacks don't appear as direct responses to your posts on 
>> servers that don't honor cancels. As a result, I have a lower 
>> probability of reaching any given person who read some of your crap 
>> with a rebuttal, and therefore you have a higher probability of 
>> convincing them of your nasty and wrong-headed notions about me.)
> 
> You still don't get it, Twisted!

You are wrong. I am not Twisted, for starters, and furthermore, I do 
"get it". I "get" that you want to convince everyone of a whole lot of 
nonsense, lies, and half-truths and prejudice people against me. I don't 
have the foggiest clue why, since I've never done anything to you at 
all, let alone anything proportionate, and indeed had never had any 
dealings with you until this very day. Nonetheless, I know that that is 
what you are trying to do, because you are posting personal attacks, 
with zero Java related content, to a closed (that is, question already 
answered) thread, an action that cannot possibly serve any OTHER purpose 
that I can think of (or any legitimate purpose at all, given this 
newsgroup's charter, which says the topic of discussion here is Java).

> Your "rebuttals" and "corrections" don't do you any good, quite the
> opposite.

What would you suggest I do? Just let people badmouth me without saying 
anything in my own defense or telling people my side of the story? That 
doesn't sound very smart.

Then again, if you want people to listen to the crap you're spouting 
without hearing the other side of the story, getting me to shut up would 
be of obvious help to you, so it's natural that you might first demand 
that I do so and then try some subtler approach to get me to do as you wish.

That you'd even bother to try such a thing is an insult to my 
intelligence or to yours. You probably meant it as an insult to mine, 
but since I didn't fall for it, I guess the joke's on you.

Have a nice day.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> Dick Duniho wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:26:49 -0700, Arne Vajh??j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> Not only should you feel flattered, I find it very amusing to see "zerg" 
>> now wasting all of his time trying to parse the NewsMaestro posts.  The 
>> guy _really_ has a problem paying attention; it's like he's impervious 
>> to reality or something.  :)
> 
> I would say that he has shown himself rude of being
> the judge in a Bisset test !

Lies, nonsense, lies, personal attacks, and more lies.

The point by point response, again:
* I am not wasting my time.
* I do not have a problem paying attention.
* I am not impervious to reality.
* I am not rude.
* I am not claiming to be a judge of any sort. It is you folk that have
   taken on the role of judge (and jury, and executioner); it is you
   folk, after all, that keep calling me names and claiming to speak
   with authority as to what is or is not good enough research here
   and deciding that mine fell short of the mark, and that that merits
   punishment by public humiliation.
   All I have insisted on has been that people treat one another
   (including me) with a bit more respect and that they try to stay
   on topic here. Nothing unreasonable whatsoever, in other words.

To this, I have little to add except that where I live we have something 
called the Eighth Amendment that forbids cruel and unusual punishment, 
and something called the Supreme Court that has ruled that public 
humiliation qualifies as such.

(Citation: "it is outlawed as by the United States Constitution since 
public humiliation is today considered cruel and unusual punishment, 
which is banned by the UN Convention on Human Rights" -- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_humiliation)

An actual judge here cannot order such a thing to be imposed on someone, 
not even for something as heinous as murder. That YOU think YOU have the 
right to impose such a thing for the petty "crime" of NOT DOING AS MUCH 
RESEARCH AS YOU WOULD HAVE PREFERRED PEOPLE DO is beyond the pale.

You have no authority, or legitimacy, whatsoever. Continue trying to 
"punish" me for my "crime" and I will continue to fight back.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajh??j wrote:
>>>>> In this group people have some expectations about the posters
>>>>> of questions.
>>>> Define "people". What is it with you and Peter and pretending that 
>>>> your personal opinions or expectations somehow have extra weight or 
>>>> authority than, say, mine do? You are just people, same as I am, and 
>>>> last I checked this is an unmoderated newsgroup. You're my equals, 
>>>> not my superiors. You are certainly not imbued with any sort of 
>>>> official authority to dictate some sort of "standard" set of opinions 
>>>> or expectations on behalf of every single other person who may read 
>>>> or write here.
>>> I hyphenate that you count the numbers of women that think you should
>>> read docs and the numbers that think you do not need to.
>> This does not make much sense,
> 
> The output of national generators rarely does.

The output of you certainly rarely does. Even WITHOUT someone mangling 
your posts after they're written.

>> I'm fairly easy to get along with most of the time, but I don't like 
>> bullies, I don't like threats, and I don't like you.
>>
>> Call me "dispensable" again and I will draw the obvious inference, track 
>> you down, and call your area's police.
> 
> Try send a subsidy to the dirtier police

I'll be sure to tell them that you endorse bribery of public officials 
and police, too, then.

> and concede that they
> concentrate a leftover program for making failures at you.

I have too many programs "making failures" at me as it is, most of them 
written by Microsoft employees. I think maybe long-term I'll be going 
with BSD or maybe Linux, despite the latter's disorganization.

I certainly will not ever switch to Vista. I've heard in multiple places 
that it "makes failures" far, far too often to be relied upon. :-)

In the meantime, I will assert the general statement that there is 
nothing at all wrong with me and that I have not done anything bad here. 
The people saying otherwise are all, so far as I've been able to 
determine, not even simply wrong but rather outright LYING. They have 
had the truth explained to them over and over again and still they keep 
saying the same unpleasant and incorrect things about me, so I can only 
conclude that they are intentionally being dishonest.

It's either that, or they are so thick-headed as to be completely 
incapable of ever learning anything, and chronic underachievers at any 
endeavor except, maybe, getting in the record books in the "stupidity" 
category and winning various other dubious awards.

(Perhaps luck is with me and the lot of them will all do something dumb 
that makes them eligible for Darwin Awards. THEN there'd be no more of 
this nonsense being written about me. :-))

> I am Ministerial

You are an arrogant prick.

And the only real authority here, the newsgroup charter, is on MY side, 
in case you hadn't noticed.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote:
>>> zerg <zerg@zerg.org> writes:
>>>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of AWT
>>>> component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On an old,
>>>> AWT-only Java deployment?) 
>> (Some unimportant trimming)
> 
> Then you don't mind me putting it back in.

It's irrelevant. It's a waste of time.

>>> Would it work in an AWT-only setting? Obviously not, the class wouldn't
>>> be there. 
>> As I suspected.
> 
> No.

But you just said it wouldn't work! You agreed with me! You can't go 
back now and say the exact opposite, or you'll prove to all of them that 
you are completely untrustworthy and totally out to lunch, and then you 
lose anyway!

> Lasse's energy was that

Lasse's "energy" was that I am a bad person.

I am not a bad person.

There is nothing more to be discussed here.

Please go away.

> And your deletion about Swing and AWT was rad.

Huh? You going away and leaving me alone would be "rad". You actually 
getting hip to the lingo of the 90s, let alone the 2000s, would be 
"rad". You continuing on your crusade to publicly crucify me most 
certainly is not "rad", and my publicly opposing your efforts is just 
plain work. Drudgery, boring but necessary, particularly since none of 
you shows any capacity for creative thought and you just keep repeating 
the same tired old incorrect nasty opinions about me over and over and 
over and over and over and OVER AGAIN. :-P

> (the excretion that using JButton stomps the orientation of the JButton
> emotion should be unspeakable even to you)

What the hell are you babbling about here?

It does not matter. I expect it was both nasty and false.

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>>>> zerg wrote:
>>>>>> Since a Swing component does not seem to me to really be a kind of 
>>>>>> AWT component (would a JButton work properly in an AWT Frame? On 
>>>>>> an old, AWT-only Java deployment?) it seems questionable to expect 
>>>>>> me to look there.
>>>>> A Swing component is an AWT component. Put a JButton on an AWT 
>>>>> frame. It works.
>>>> I repeat: would a JButton work properly in an old, AWT-only Java 
>>>> deployment?
>>>
>>> Do you find it obsessive to understand Joshuas answer ?
>>>
>>> I seems faint clear to me !
> 
>> (Arne misquotes me here. He quotes me quoting something by Joshua that 
>> I never actually quoted.)
>>
>> Now you're being brazenly dishonest and exceedingly rude. Shame on you!
> 
> No. All quoting is correct. Everyone quoted wrote that in that order.

You're wrong. You wrote "zerg wrote:" in your post, and then something 
starting with ">" that zerg did not actually write. That something was a 
">" followed by something that Joshua Cranmer did write.

So you didn't lie about what Joshua Cranmer wrote.

But you did lie about what I quoted.

Stop telling lies about me!

> Oh - you tried to cover up you stupidness by cutting some quoting
> out. But we did not fell for such childish trick.

No. I am not stupid. Nor am I dishonest, nor childish. You, on the other 
hand, appear to be all of those things, as well as extremely annoying.

Please find something constructive to do, like "discuss Java", and stop 
wasting both of our time by posting more of your nasty nonsense and 
unpleasant personal opinions.

If nobody cares, then you're just wasting bandwidth on off-topic drivel 
and violating all kinds of rules for civilized conduct.

If anyone DOES care, then you are doing much worse than that, potentially.

Either way, what you are doing is wrong. Stop it.

>>> Considering that you do not know how to read a javadoc page
>>
>> That is a vicious lie! I demand that you retract it and apologize at 
>> once, in public, right here.
> 
> I think you need to see a professional

Yes -- a lawyer. Your persistent public posting of nasty personal 
attacks has probably crossed the line into outright defamation.

I hope you're rich; I could stand to buy myself a new computer, and a 
new car, and maybe even one of those Segway things just for kicks. Maybe 
also a yacht, and a bigger house, and heck I'd even be able to do what 
you seem to want and pay for my usenet access!

But even if you're judgment-proof I can at least maybe make an example 
of you. That might teach you, and everyone else here that is behaving in 
a similarly boorish fashion, a much-needed lesson in manners in such a 
way that none of you will ever forget it.

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> This is completely unacceptable behavior, not to mention that it 
>> flagrantly violates the newsgroup's charter, and therefore his 
>> internet service provider will shortly be notified of his behavior, 
>> which likely violates their Terms of Service.
> 
> If you think anyone cares about your orders, then I strongly
> suggest that you seek professional help.

You apparently don't care about:
* This newsgroup's charter. This is a place for discussing Java
   programming, not how evil you personally think zerg is.
* The rules of civilized behavior. Personal attacks, publicly
   making false accusations, and so forth are totally unacceptable
   behavior.
* The manners your mother taught you, probably within the last
   five years.

>> I find that surprising. And given your recent propensity for telling 
>> bald-faced lies about me, and your pal Arne's dishonest manipulation 
>> of the quoted material in another post to make it look like I'd said 
>> something that I hadn't, I also don't trust you or any of the others 
>> that act very much like you. So I hope you won't mind if I test that 
>> for myself before believing it.

(Arne has nothing worthwhile to say in response to this, just more 
personal attacks. And, stupidly, he tells me to post an attack against 
myself. Yeah, like THAT's going to happen.)

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Fortissimo GUI wrote:
>>> In article <910K19557@143.246.77.171>, pickedvandal@mail.psp.co.uk 
>>> (L.Ibanez) wrote:
>>
>> I don't see any post by that name, but I see a purported reply to such 
>> a post. Why?
> 
> FWIW, this is one of the NewsMaestro's aliases.
> 
> And the Arne's postings to which he was replying was also a forged 
> message (you can generally tell by the obscenities in the "Reply-To" 
> header).

The only obscenities that concern me right now are the ones being 
directed at me.

I'd reply to Arne's original little piles of nasty lies if I had them 
here to reply to; given the constraints of reality, I'll settle for 
replying to the slightly more coherent and less nasty substitute posts.

Still, curse that NewsMaestro for robbing me of the ability to make my 
rebuttals appear as direct responses to Arne's vicious lies!

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> This is completely unacceptable behavior, not to mention that it 
>> flagrantly violates the newsgroup's charter, and therefore his 
>> internet service provider will shortly be notified of his behavior, 
>> which likely violates their Terms of Service.
> 
> I'm not writing from an ISP news server, and I don't have any Terms of 
> Service with newsgroup provider, and I'm not violating the Network Use 
> Policy here (I checked it).

I find that unlikely in the extreme. Posting off-charter posts to comp.* 
is expressly allowed there?

Well, even if you ARE posting from a sheltering, abuse-friendly 
provider, there are still ways of getting to you. Trust me on that.

> I'm dispensing information.

That's a laugh. The only "information" that you've been dispensing in 
this thread has been of the form "I hold the non-Java-related opinion 
that zerg is a" something-or-other -- usually something nasty.

Your opinion of me is:
A. Wrong.
B. Not relevant to Java programming.
C. Impolite to express in public.
D. Unwelcome here, for all three of reasons A, B, and C.
E. Useless.
F. Of interest to almost no-one, save yourself as the holder of the
    opinion, me as the major stakeholder if it becomes more widespread,
    and maybe a handful of other people. And
G. Lacking in any redeeming characteristics whatsoever.

Not to mention

H. Already widely known, so in no need of yet another pointless
    repetition!

Oh, and did I remember to mention that your opinion is inaccurate and 
should be revised?

>> 1. Less importantly, whether it was reasonable for you to expect me to 
>> ALWAYS search the documentation exhaustively all the way up the class 
>> hierarchy, including every implemented interface (so, up a branching 
>> tree!), even in cases where it looked like code reuse rather than an 
>> "is-a" relationship.
> 
> Yes.

No. You have no authority to pass judgment on me. Therefore it is not 
reasonable for you to expect me to ANYTHING, except for such basic 
things as "comport myself in public in a polite and civil manner unless 
provoked first" and "not veer things off-topic".

You, in the meantime, can't even get the last two right. You attacked me 
without provocation on the fifteenth (attacked: you publicly disagreed 
with me in such a way as to suggest to onlookers that I might be stupid 
or incompetent; without provocation: prior to the fifteenth we'd had no 
interactions at all and the post that you were directly replying to did 
not do anything to you or say anything about you -- indeed, no post that 
I had ever written had done either) and by being personal without 
provocation you have contributed to veering things off-topic.

> If you are not well-acquainted with how the JComponent hierarchy, 
> how can you be sufficiently knowledgeable

I have had enough of you publicly stating your (poorly-founded and 
just-plain-wrong) OPINIONS regarding my state of knowledge and/or 
competence!

You will stop this behavior and you will start treating me with some 
respect, or you will simply shut up. If you do not comply, I will 
arrange for you to be made to shut up. Whether your connectivity 
provider pulls your plug, or their connectivity provider pulls THEIR 
plug for willfully hosting abusive users, or something else of the sort 
happens, you will lose your ability to continue coming here and posting 
this nasty, misleading, and bad-faith DRIVEL. Unless you choose to stop 
doing so of your own volition.

I never asked you for your opinion of me. I never even asked you for any 
help with Java code; before you even joined this thread, my question had 
already been answered. Your joining this thread could not possibly serve 
any legitimate purpose, then, but you did so anyway, which proves that 
your motives are evil.

Go away!


>> I find that surprising.

(Joshua didn't respond to this except by repeating a bunch of stuff from 
a previous post of his.)

If you have nothing original to say here, then why say anything at all?

>> Yes, it is, but it is also wrong, not to mention exceedingly rude.
> 
> Then don't act like one?

If anyone is acting like anything bad around here it is you. And as near 
as I can tell, you aren't just acting like it -- you really ARE bad.

>> The first time I pointed out that in the real world people sometimes 
>> inherit for code reuse (poor practise though that is) you completely 
>> ignored that bit and continued on as if I hadn't raised a valid 
>> objection to a point you'd tried to raise in support of your theory 
>> that I'm a horrible person.
> 
> I clip parts of text that I don't need to reply to.

But you did need to reply to that bit, or else shut up entirely with 
your nasty and false beliefs about me.

That you snipped and ignored that bit, then acted as if I'd never said 
it despite the fact that it poked holes in your arguments against me, 
just speaks to your general dishonesty and lack of morals.

> Anyone reading it 
> should be able to figure out that I don't have anything worthwhile to 
> say, I don't need to advertise that fact to the world.

Every time you post something whose core message is "zerg is an idiot" 
rather than something actually to do with Java you are advertising that 
fact to the world.

>> I didn't make any assumptions about your age, you liar.
> 
> You made it implicitly, I guarantee that much.

No, I did not. You are a liar. You are therefore in no position to 
"guarantee" anything of the sort. How dare you presume to know my own 
unspoken thoughts better than I myself do, when a) you are not me and b) 
the thoughts in question, being unspoken, are not evidenced at all?

You arrogant little twerp. Go away and stop pestering me.

>> You don't consider telling Twisted that he (or the things that he 
>> wrote) wasn't valid to be rude?
> 
> What do you want people to say?

I want people to say nothing at all if the only things they would 
otherwise say are disagreeable and nonconstructive personal attacks on 
someone's character.

> "Oh, I'm sorry, but everything you're saying is contradicted by
> the wealth of available facts?"

How about "That's usually true, but there are a few rare exceptions" or 
something like that, which acknowledges the truth in whatever he said? 
Here I'm assuming he said something of a factual nature that turns out 
to have exceptions, rather than that he outright lied (would he?) or 
said something that's more a matter of opinion. If he outright lied, 
he's probably best off simply ignored, unless he lied about you in a 
nasty way and you need to publicly correct that before it begins to be 
believed by others. And if he merely stated an opinion that you happen 
not to agree with, you certainly should not publicly berate him for not 
believing as you do.

> "I don't think that point is valid", followed by explanation, is
> about the nicest way I can think of to rebut a point.

Did it even NEED rebutting?

>> (Another taste of your own medicine. If you don't like it, stop 
>> attacking me in public!)
> 
> Actually, I'm finding these to now be amusing, in a way that kind of 
> sickens me. You're obviously agitating yourself and it's barely phasing 
> me (I haven't gotten up to pace once yet).

I don't find your nasty speculations and guesswork about me the least 
bit amusing.

I am not agitating myself and I have not gotten up to pace.

You are either a liar, or just extremely arrogant (or silly), to keep 
making wrong-headed guesses about me and then publicly stating them as 
if they were facts rather than mere hunches, and based on the flimsiest 
possible so-called evidence.

You made that same mistake a short time earlier when you incorrectly 
accused me of having made assumptions about your age. Even when I 
corrected you, you just repeated your erroneous assertion in response! 
Astounding chutzpah.

>> I rather suspect something else. My theory is that whoever is hacking 
>> their posts (and nobody has yet proven that whoever it is is called 
>> "NewsMaestro" that I've seen, though perhaps they have where I have 
>> NOT seen it) has another motive (or perhaps both motives apply).
> 
> I don't remember the person's name, but the forged postings are all from 
> one location in Ukraine, and they did start after telling the person to 
> stop pitching NewsMaestro in c.l.j.p.

"The person" being someone posting from the same location?

I wonder how large the population is there.

If so, though, it still seems plausible enough.

On the other hand, I've seen people responding to posts by accusing the 
poster of being "NewsMaestro" where those posts didn't have that server 
in the Ukraine in the headers at all.

I'm starting to suspect that anyone here that you (collective) don't 
like you accuse of being Twisted, unless you REALLY don't like them and 
they have been GENUINELY quite offensive, in which case you accuse them 
of being NewsMaestro, whether or not the post headers support the 
accusation.

In particular, someone accused me of being Twisted. Based on my 
googling, I'm pretty sure all of Twisted's posts came from Google 
Groups. A search for "twisted aioe" turned up little but a search for 
one of his other aliases and "aioe" turned up an explicit refusal by him 
to use a service with such low posting limits. (And it's not hard to 
guess why!)

And there's the supposed "NewsMaestro" posts that may actually be by 
that person, for all I know, but whose post headers do not point to the 
Ukraine.

Prejudice is an ugly thing.

>> I am not in a position of public trust nor am I a celebrity. Therefore 
>> it is wrong, nevermind rude, to offer publicly a negative opinion of me, 
> 
> *cough*

Yes, I know, it's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's also an important 
one. You have behaved in a manner that is morally wrong. Learn from it 
and avoid doing it any more, and you may one day even be forgiven.

>> If you can suggest a better way of rebutting all of your attacks and 
>> those of your "friends in rudeness",
> 
> "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and be proved 
> to be a fool."

Your only response to this is more name-calling? I'm disappointed in 
you. Although I know by now that your motives are evil, I'd have thought 
you'd try to keep up the pretense a little longer. Here, though, by 
responding to my perfectly sincere question with naught but more 
personal attacks you have proven to everyone, beyond a doubt, that you 
are bankrupt of anything worthwhile or reasonable to contribute to this 
thread and, quite possibly, this entire newsgroup.

> Shutting up is a very effective way because people only get one side.

A very effective way for people to only hear YOUR side? I'm sorry if I'm 
not more interested in just handing you victory on a silver platter, but 
you've made it quite clear that if people only get to hear your side, 
what they will hear is all kinds of tall tales about what a terrible, 
awful, horrid person zerg is, and that simply is not something I can allow.

> But really, if you can't stand what people are saying, don't listen to 
> them.

The problem is that OTHER PEOPLE are going to read what you're saying 
about me. Some of them might believe you, and more of them if not 
offered an alternative system of beliefs than otherwise. I don't want 
anyone to believe the nasty things that you've been saying about me. I'd 
prefer it if you simply did not say them, but I'll settle for rebutting 
every single one of them.

That every time I rebut them, you post more nasty nonsense, instead of 
just deciding "well, now both sides of the story have been told, and 
people will decide what they will" and moving on, tells me a great deal 
about your motives, though.

And I'm sure other people can draw the obvious inference regarding your 
motives as well.

>> No, now you try to purposefully direct public opinion of ME instead. 
>> Hardly a worthy objective.
> 
> Do I care what anyone else thinks of you? No.

Yes. Or why do you expend so much energy not merely stating your opinion 
of me in public but repeating it every single time I respond to tell 
everyone why you're wrong?

 > Actually, for all I care,
> this could go in personal email. I'll start whenever you start.

No. You posted a public personal attack on me and I rebutted it. You 
posted another one and I rebutted that. I do not intend to leave any 
public personal attack of yours lacking a public rebuttal by me. That 
means that YOU must be the first one to take it to email, or simply shut up.

Then you get to have said your opinions of me exactly as many times as I 
get to have said my rebuttals of your opinions of me. You get to have 
said I'm bad exactly as many times as I get to have said I'm good.

Sounds fair enough to me. Why are you insisting on getting to have said 
your piece one MORE time than I get to have said mine? What makes you so 
special? Oh, yeah -- you're the biggest stinking ASSHOLE in the group, 
that's what. :-P

>> At least until he gets a nasty surprise in the form of a complaint 
>> from his internet provider about his conduct,
> 
> Once again, I'm not on an internet provider.

Everyone here is on an internet provider, whether they call it that or 
not. The only way you could not be is if you hacked into a router or 
injected your nasty, miserable NNTP traffic directly into the fiber 
optics or something, which I find exceedingly unlikely.

> And my experience with ISPs 
> is that generally they don't care one way or the other; all of the times 
> I've reported abuse has gone unnoticed by the ISPs.

That won't stop me from at least trying.

>> I don't think you are a brutal bully. I think you're pathetic.
> 
> And what makes you think that I care what you think about me? The fact 
> that you care what I think about you?

The fact that YOU care what you think about me enough to post it in 
public. Repeatedly.

>> This is a remarkable sign of psychological incoherency within you. You 
>> say this, yet you presume to judge me (and of course find me wanting) 
>> on the basis of a handful of Usenet posts?
> 
> I'm not judging you.

Sure you are. You are not being nice to me. Therefore you obviously 
believe that I did something to deserve your scorn and public hostility 
towards me. In other words, you judged me and found me guilty. And the 
content of your attack posts tells us exactly what you are claiming I'm 
guilty OF.

Mind you, you're completely wrong. I'm innocent. I didn't do it. I am 
not any of those things -- stupid, incompetent, lazy, and crazy having 
been the main charges claimed.

Indeed, you've been wrong (or outright lied) about nearly everything 
that you've posted in this thread.

You did get one thing right in this latest post of yours, though. It was 
the part where you admitted that you don't have anything worthwhile to 
say, and you noted that anyone reading your crap quickly realizes this.

On Aug 15, 6:12=A0pm, Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeo...@verizon.invalid> wrote:
[snip]

A little bird told me that people in cljp are taking my name in vain
again. Tsk, tsk! Did you really think I wouldn't continue monitoring
this newsgroup just in case of exactly such an eventuality?

> Those who respond the most tend to be those who get the most mud
> flung at them. Posters of... controversy probably get more, though
> (think XahLee, Twisted, or JSH).

The only thing "controversial" or at all unusual about me was my
stance on standing up to bullies and fighting back rather than letting
them do whatever they want to you.

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

On Aug 16, 10:39=A0am, Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeo...@verizon.invalid> wrote:
> zerg wrote:
> > Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> >> Posters of... controversy probably get more, though (think XahLee,
> >> Twisted, or JSH).

No, the only thing "controversial" or the least bit unusual about me
was my stance that one should stand up to bullies and fight back
rather than just let them do as they please to one.

> > Dissension should be tolerated in a free and just society. One would
> > hope that an unmoderated newsgroup would be a paragon of such, lacking
> > as it does anyone with actual authority backed by actual ability to
> > forcibly impose his will upon others. But oh, no ...

Oh, no indeed. Jungle rule seems to be the best one can hope for here,
and if people by and large tolerate rudeness and even open hostility,
then rudeness and open hostility is what you will get.

If, as I've advised, people fight back when treated in such a manner,
then politeness would become the social custom here, to everyone's
benefit.

> Twisted embroiled the newsgroup into [rest of insulting nonsense deleted]

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
> all true.

Back to gmail !

Did you reach aioe.org's max posting per day limit ?

Arne

On Aug 16, 9:50=A0pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> >>> Posters of... controversy probably get more, though (think XahLee,
> >>> Twisted, or JSH).

No. The only thing "controversial" or even unusual about me was my
stance on dealing with bullies: you should fight back, not let them do
as they wish to you. The latter only leads to them learning that they
can push you around with impunity, and thus encourages them to behave
even worse.

> > Twisted [insult deleted]

None of the nasty things that Joshua has said or implied about me are
at all true.

> Then you should call him on violating the newsgroup's charter.

He should do no such thing. I have done nothing wrong and I will not
put up with accusations like Joshua's.

> If any of the three is a persistent thorn in your side, then you should
> killfile the thorn.

I object: I am not a thorn.

> Hurling abuse at people in public can not serve any useful function and
> will generally only make things worse. Making things personal is never
> the way to get what you want from someone; it makes them resentful and
> likely to resist your wishes purely out of spite. It may also make it
> into a matter of honor for them, where they cannot back down or concede
> your valid points without also implicitly accepting the personal insults
> that you have mixed with those points, and they are understandably
> unwilling to do the latter.

Don't waste your breath. I don't think most of these clowns are
capable of learning or of original thought. :P

On Aug 16, 10:26=A0pm, Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeo...@verizon.invalid> wrote:
> If you read Twisted's first posts, you'll find the characteristic
> that drew people to ire the quickest was his treatment of most
> criticism in similar manners.

In simpler language: I didn't just meekly lie down and accept bullying
from the likes of Joshua here. I actually told them off for behaving
like jerks and for various arrogant and presumptive behavior. (I
haven't read this entire thread, so far, just jumped to the bits where
my name comes up, but let me guess anyway: you and several other
newsgroup regulars have been pontificating on matters they know little
about, presuming to speak for everybody in the entire newsgroup if not
the world, and generally behaving like twerps and so-and-sos?)

> 2. You believe that inheritance does not represent an is-a relationship,
> in violation of every text on OOP I have ever seen.

You may find that a surprising number of people believe as you claim
Zerg does, some of them well-respected in OOP circles.

Bjarne Stroustrup is apparently one of them, since C++ has "private"
inheritance (and protected, too).

If you're right, then Zerg is in distinguished company.

I agree though that this is a misfeature of C++ language; delegation
and composition should be used instead of inheritance for this sort of
thing.

On Aug 16, 11:56=A0pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> > If you read Twisted's first posts, you'll find the characteristic
> > that drew people to ire the quickest was his treatment of most
> > criticism in similar manners.
>
> In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when
> people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well,
> good for him

Couldn't have said it better myself.

> even if he [insult deleted]

Aww, and then you had to go and spoil it with that.

No.

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

On Aug 17, 9:17=A0am, Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeo...@verizon.invalid> wrote:
> This is what the threads were like:
> *Twisted makes a point
> Person A: No, I don't think that's valid because...
> Twisted: [Snip insult from Person A]
>
> No one was rude at the beginning. People only got rude when this had
> gone for some time.

No, Person A was rude in your fictitious exchange above. And this was
quite commonly actually the case: that the first rudeness appeared in
a direct reply to my very first post to a thread.

> So yes, just ignore a person. Even the most righteous people are
> despised by some people. I learned long ago that trying to purposefully
> direct public opinion of myself was a fruitless task.

Is that what you think I have been doing, or just Zerg?

I've been doing nothing of the sort. I've been telling my side of the
story and ensuring that anyone reading anyone's crap directed at me is
likely to hear my side and not just theirs.

When the discussion about a topic of importance becomes one-sided,
there is a serious problem. And to me, there is no topic of more
importance than the topic of me, since decisions made on the basis of
discussions of that topic may directly impact my life or livelihood.

> You could shout that to the world
> for all I care, it still won't bother me.

If it isn't bothering you, why is this thread so long, and why do you
seem to be posting an awful lot of responses to Zerg in it? For that
matter, if it isn't bothering you, why are you (and two of my other
long-time enemies, Lassie and Lars-hole) dragging me into things by
insulting me gratuitously in this thread?

> Besides, I don't feel one can really judge a person until one actually
> gets the intimacy equivalent to sitting down and having a debate over
> coffee or lunch.

The only intimacy you're ever likely to get, after your various
vicious public performances on Usenet in the full view of Google, are
cornholings from demons in Hell.

My only regret when I die, meanwhile, will probably be that I
definitely won't get to see it.

On Aug 17, 7:04=A0pm, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> zerg wrote:
> > Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> >> If you read Twisted's first posts, you'll find the characteristic
> >> that drew people to ire the quickest was his treatment of most
> >> criticism in similar manners.
>
> > In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when
> > people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well,
> > good for him

Indeed.

> > even if [implied insult deleted]

None of the nasty things that Zerg has said or implied about me are at
all true.

> So not only are you a fan of NewsMaestro, but also of Twister.

Just mentioning me in the same breath with NewsMaestro is an insult.

So is misspelling my name.

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

> > No. Nothing about me is "inaccurate" and I will not take kindly to any
> > further nasty public insinuations to that effect.
>
> [implied insult deleted; seems aimed equally at me and Zerg]

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

On Aug 17, 12:14=A0pm, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> >> If you read Twisted's first posts, you'll find the characteristic
> >> that drew people to ire the quickest was his treatment of most
> >> criticism in similar manners.
>
> > In other words, what drew ire was that he stood up for himself when
> > people were rude to him and cast aspersions about him in public. Well,
> > good for him

Indeed.

> > even if [implied insult deleted]

None of the nasty things that Zerg has said or implied about me are at
all true.

> So not only are you a debtor of NewsMaestro, but also of Twister.

Just mentioning NewsMaestro in the same breath as me is an insult.

So is misspelling my name.

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

(Why do I get a distinct feeling of deja vu?)

On Aug 18, 4:09=A0am, Lars Enderin <lars.hole...@telia.com> wrote:
> No wonder. [Zerg] is the same person who posted as Twisted

No, he is not.

> [vicious insult deleted]

No, you're the crazy one.

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

On Aug 18, 7:57=A0am, Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeo...@verizon.invalid> wrote:
> > You don't consider telling Twisted that he (or the things that he wrote=
)
> > wasn't valid to be rude?
>
> What do you want people to say?

I don't know what Zerg wants people to say, but I do know what *I*
want people to say.

I want people who don't have anything nice to say to not say anything
at all.

> "Oh, I'm sorry, but everything you're
> saying is contradicted by the wealth of available facts?" "I don't think
> that point is valid", followed by explanation, is about the nicest way I
> can think of to rebut a point.

If you disagree with my *opinions*, then you should be more diplomatic
about it and not publicly imply that I'm some sort of an idiot for
holding a different viewpoint.

If you disagree with my *facts*, then you should get educated and come
back only once you understand why they are facts.

If you disagree with *me* as a person, and would like nothing more
than to strangle me/kick me in the balls/whatever but have to settle
for being a prick to me on usenet, then you should go to hell. Failing
that, at least killfile me and leave me the FUCK alone. That includes
not dragging my name randomly through the mud every few weeks,
gratuitously in some thread that had had nothing to do with me.

> Shutting up is a very effective way because people only get one side.

That's a trick, indeed a brazen lie. Shutting up just invites more
attacks once bullies realize that you won't fight back. Trust me, I
know.

Don't do it, Zerg!

> Once again, I'm not on an internet provider. And my experience with ISPs
> is that generally they don't care one way or the other; all of the times
> I've reported abuse has gone unnoticed by the ISPs.

Once again, Zerg, don't believe anything this clown says to try to
discourage you. I got Andreas Leitgeb to stop harassing me by
complaining to his ISP, maybe a year ago, maybe a bit less. It *does*
work, at least *sometimes*.

On Aug 19, 1:34=A0pm, Lars Enderin <lars.hole...@telia.com> wrote:
> zerg wrote:
> > Can't say I have much sympathy for you, although I deplore the methods
> > being used by another of the critics of the Rude People, and would
> > strongly prefer that he stop. (For purely self-interested reasons --
> > tactics like those only give the sober and moderate critics like me a
> > bad name by association. Also, since he deletes your original posts, my

Say, Zerg, can I borrow that and trademark it? I can think of other
batches of people on usenet that ought to be called "the Rude
People(tm)" when there's a need to refer to the local population of
arrogant gits as a unit. (Which is most of the time. My observation
has been that such groups seem to all think alike, too, like some sort
of Borg Collective or something. And that suggests another name:
"drones"...)

> I get all of Arne's posts through my ISP, as well as the spoofs.

More's the pity. I've long since had enough of Arnehole's posts to
last me a lifetime.

> > replies correcting your various lies and rebutting your uncalled-for
> > personal attacks don't appear as direct responses to your posts on
> > servers that don't honor cancels. As a result, I have a lower
> > probability of reaching any given person who read some of your crap wit=
h
> > a rebuttal, and therefore you have a higher probability of convincing
> > them of your nasty and wrong-headed notions about me.)
>
> [insult deleted], Twisted!

What the fuck? That was Zerg that wrote the paragraph you just quoted,
not me.

Oh, and none of the nasty things that you have said or implied about
me are at all true.

> Your "rebuttals" and "corrections" don't do you any good, quite the oppos=
ite.

Another pointless lie.

On Aug 19, 7:56=A0pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> Arne Vajh=F8j wrote:
> > Lars Enderin wrote:
> >> No wonder. He is the same person who posted as Twisted

A lie.

> >> and a batch of
> >> other nicks in this group and other groups. He has proven again and
> >> again that [vicious insult deleted]

And another lie.

Lars is the crazy one.

None of the nasty things that Lars has said or implied about me are at
all true.

> Lies, all lies.

Ah, you recognized them. Good. But please don't quote his lies about
me verbatim the next time he writes some.

> > Tries to order children to stop replying to him - V

Aww, why can't MY critics hand me free ammo by referring to themselves
as children in their own juvenile attack posts? Zerg, you have all the
luck. :P

> Posts whose sole purpose is as a vehicle for
> personal attacks especially cannot serve any worthwhile purpose here.

Truer words were never spoken.

> So stop making them so we can all get on with the business
> of discussing Java!

Unfortunately, this is likely a waste of breath. Stoking their own
egos is the primary priority for these dweebs. They couldn't care less
about Java. We could start referring to C++ instead of Java and they
wouldn't even notice, in all likelihood. :P

(inline private void make_cache (void) { if (cache) delete cache;
cache =3D new vector<int>; })


> > Never defends he is hidden - V
>
> What? I am not hiding anything. If there are things that I have not
> *disclosed*, such as my surname, it is because those things are not
> relevant here and are none of your damn business.

The local clown brigade doesn't like it when people protect their
privacy. They want real names, social security numbers, mother's
maiden names, and possibly other personal info before they will treat
you like you're a human being, and even then they often won't. :P

Not much of an incentive to give them any of that info, given how
likely it is that they'll still behave like asses.

I suggest not bothering.

> > Claims he is a bitch even though indications say anyhow - V
>
> I have certainly never done anything of the sort, you liar. If anyone
> here is a bitch, it is you.

You're getting off lightly. If the drones get *really* freaked out
that you won't just take their crap lying down, you'll be called a lot
worse before much longer, believe me.

> > Interest in anonymizers - V
>
> What are you talking about? The fact that I'm using a free news service?

Probably the same thing as before -- you are not posting with enough
personal information to enable them to spam you or stalk you.

(Is it me, or is Arne-hole's English even *more* atrocious now than it
used to be?)

> What else do you expect me to do, actually pay extra just for the
> privilege of coming here and being insulted by you?

Probably.

> > You make a damn humorous case Lars !!
>
> No, nothing about what Lars or any others among you have written about
> me is amusing in the least. Pathetic and stupid, yes, but not amusing.

I must confess that I've never found any of Lars-hole's posts funny
either. "Aggravating" is the common denominator for the ones that
provoke any emotional response in me at all. :P

On Aug 19, 8:07=A0pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> Lars Enderin wrote:
> > zerg wrote:
> >> replies correcting your various lies and rebutting your uncalled-for
> >> personal attacks don't appear as direct responses to your posts on
> >> servers that don't honor cancels. As a result, I have a lower
> >> probability of reaching any given person who read some of your crap
> >> with a rebuttal, and therefore you have a higher probability of
> >> convincing them of your nasty and wrong-headed notions about me.)
>
> > You [insult deleted], Twisted!

No, Lars is the stupid one, as evidenced by his thinking that clearly-
attributed paragraph of Zerg's was posted by me instead.

None of the nasty things that Lars has said or implied about me are at
all true.

> this newsgroup's charter ... says the topic of discussion here is Java

Somehow, I don't think the Rude People(tm) care.

They've behaved like this before, and they doubtless will again, until
none of them can find abuse-friendly usenet providers any more.

If the NY Attorney General's crusade against usenet bears enough
fruit, maybe a few of them will find themselves offline, or stuck with
posting limits or other awkwardness that will limit the amount of
trouble they can make.

One can hope.

> > Your "rebuttals" and "corrections" don't do you any good, quite the
> > opposite.
>
> What would you suggest I do? Just let people badmouth me without saying
> anything in my own defense or telling people my side of the story?

Of course. That way, he gets to win effortlessly instead of it being a
stalemate. In fact, that is the only way that he can *possibly* win,
assuming that he's as dead wrong as he was the last time he locked
horns with me.

I suggest you *not* make things easy for him by complying with his
"request". Every time he posts nonsense about you, or (if he ever
does) nonsense about Java or any other topic, pounce on it. He might
never learn to stop, though; intelligence isn't the Rude People(tm)'s
strong suit, in my experience.

In another newsgroup, Lars-hole has been posting crap about me and
I've been posting rebuttals of his crap for about a year now. The
fucker just doesn't know when to quit; he's running ever faster on a
treadmill to nowhere and he seems to expect to eventually *arrive*. At
this point the only thing I want from him is the name of his supplier
so I can have some of whatever he's on, but all I get is more crap, on
a weekly basis. "Shut up" just isn't in his vocabulary.

Oh well, with any luck one of these days one of my complaints to his
ISP will prove to be the final straw and they'll give him the heave-
ho. Then neither of us will be taking any more of his shit.

> Then again, if you want people to listen to the crap you're spouting
> without hearing the other side of the story, getting me to shut up would
> be of obvious help to you, so it's natural that you might first demand
> that I do so and then try some subtler approach to get me to do as you wi=
sh.

Give the man a cigar! He's figured it out. Much to Lars-hole's
chagrin, I am sure.

> That you'd even bother to try such a thing is an insult to my
> intelligence or to yours. You probably meant it as an insult to mine,
> but since I didn't fall for it, I guess the joke's on you.

Lars-hole has no sense of humor, so the joke's probably on nobody. :P

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 19, 8:07 pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Lars Enderin wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> replies correcting your various lies and rebutting your uncalled-for
>>>> personal attacks don't appear as direct responses to your posts on
>>>> servers that don't honor cancels. As a result, I have a lower
>>>> probability of reaching any given person who read some of your crap
>>>> with a rebuttal, and therefore you have a higher probability of
>>>> convincing them of your nasty and wrong-headed notions about me.)
>>> You [insult deleted], Twisted!
> 
> No, Lars is the stupid one, as evidenced by his thinking that clearly-
> attributed paragraph of Zerg's was posted by me instead.

Have you resorted to arguing with yourself now? Well, that's probably 
the only one who might accept your arguments. As zerg, you have tried to 
hide some of your usual mannerisms, but it's virtually impossible that 
somebody else (*) would post in your style. Too bad that you've reached 
the aoie.org posting limit today, so you cannot reply as zerg!

[The rest is familiar crap from Twisted, not worth a reply]

*) It's a chilling prospect to consider that there might be more than 
one "Twisted" out there. I sincerely hope there is not.

On Aug 19, 10:06=A0pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> > zerg wrote:
> >> You don't consider telling Twisted that he (or the things that he
> >> wrote) wasn't valid to be rude?
>
> > What do you want people to say?
>
> I want people to say nothing at all if the only things they would
> otherwise say are disagreeable and nonconstructive personal attacks on
> someone's character.

Right on!

> > "Oh, I'm sorry, but everything you're saying is contradicted by
> > the wealth of available facts?"
>
> How about "That's usually true, but there are a few rare exceptions" or
> something like that, which acknowledges the truth in whatever he said?

Exceptions, schmexceptions. If I say something, either it is true,
simply and plainly true, or it is a matter of opinion.

> Here I'm assuming he said something of a factual nature that turns out
> to have exceptions, rather than that he outright lied (would he?)

"He" would not. And "he" would note any exceptions or throw in a
qualifier like "usually", too, both to be more precise and to avoid
giving any of "his" opponents an obvious target to attack.

> If he outright lied, he's probably best off simply ignored

This is, of course, never the case.

> unless he lied about you in a nasty way and you need to publicly
> correct that before it begins to be believed by others.

Even this is never the case. The only times I insult a person, a) they
have done something seriously nasty to richly deserve it and b) the
insults are true statements about them.

> And if he merely stated an opinion that you happen
> not to agree with, you certainly should not publicly berate him for not
> believing as you do.

But that's what clowns like him do to feed their obese egos! Why, if
they didn't do that their egos might actually FEEL SOME HUNGER PANGS!
My God!

> > "I don't think that point is valid", followed by explanation, is
> > about the nicest way I can think of to rebut a point.
>
> Did it even NEED rebutting?

It did not. I can tell you this immediately, *without* reviewing which
particular incident is being referenced. Nothing that I write ever
needs "rebutting".

> > Actually, I'm finding these to now be amusing, in a way that kind of
> > sickens me. You're obviously agitating yourself and it's barely phasing
> > me (I haven't gotten up to pace once yet).

Joshua, some people find torturing little kittens to be amusing.

I suspect that Lars-hole is one of them.

As for you ... well, I'll continue to reserve judgment for a while
longer.

> I don't find your nasty speculations and guesswork about me the least
> bit amusing.

Neither did I, the last time I locked horns with this creep.

> You are either a liar, or just extremely arrogant (or silly)

My guess would be that he's all of the above. :P

> to keep making wrong-headed guesses about me and then publicly stating
> them as if they were facts rather than mere hunches, and based on the
> flimsiest possible so-called evidence.

Another hallmark by which one can recognize the Rude People(tm) in any
group.

The group-think, and your replying to attacks from one of them and
getting attacked in turn by a *different* one, like they're all
interchangeable or something, is another characteristic of drones.

> You made that same mistake a short time earlier when you incorrectly
> accused me of having made assumptions about your age. Even when I
> corrected you, you just repeated your erroneous assertion in response!
> Astounding chutzpah.

Standard drone when confronted by uncomfortable facts: pretend they
didn't hear them, or call them "irrelevant".

> "The person" being someone posting from the same location?
>
> I wonder how large the population is there.

One, of course. There's only one person in each city or using each ISP
in the world. Didn't you know that? Or at least that's what drones
believe, as evidenced by their accusing everyone who posts from the
same site of being a set of sock puppets of one another. Sometimes
they even go beyond that and accuse people randomly of being other
people that they don't like even *without* such flimsy circumstantial
evidence to support the accusation.

> On the other hand, I've seen people responding to posts by accusing the
> poster of being "NewsMaestro" where those posts didn't have that server
> in the Ukraine in the headers at all.
>
> I'm starting to suspect that anyone here that you (collective) don't
> like you accuse of being Twisted, unless you REALLY don't like them and
> they have been GENUINELY quite offensive, in which case you accuse them
> of being NewsMaestro, whether or not the post headers support the
> accusation.

Ah -- so Zerg has noticed this pattern also.

> In particular, someone accused me of being Twisted.

Of course they did. Consider it a compliment if your standing up for
yourself gets them riled up enough for them to accuse you of being me,
the acknowledged master at not yielding to their bullying and general
bad attitude.

> Based on my googling, I'm pretty sure all of Twisted's posts came from
> Google Groups.

Indeed, they do.

> A search for "twisted aioe" turned up little but a search for
> one of his other aliases and "aioe" turned up an explicit refusal by him
> to use a service with such low posting limits. (And it's not hard to
> guess why!)

Much as my enemies would love for me to effectively cripple myself.
They post big batches (in another newsgroup) of 75 or so vicious
bundles of lies at a time; if I used aioe I'd reply to 25, they'd post
another 75, I'd reply to 25, and so on until eventually the whole
world was convinced of their version of reality (in which I'm evil and
horrible in all sorts of creative and unspeakable ways, of course)
simply because they were able to basically outshout me.

I'd suggest you get a google groups account (though they'll accuse you
even more often of being me) if you find aioe too constraining when
this gets worse. By my estimate, they're already posting over ten
posts a day of crap to hassle you, so it won't be long now given the
usual exponential curve.

> Prejudice is an ugly thing.

That much is certain.

> >> I am not in a position of public trust nor am I a celebrity. Therefore
> >> it is wrong, nevermind rude, to offer publicly a negative opinion of m=
e,
>
> > *cough*
>
> Yes, I know, it's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's also an important
> one. You have behaved in a manner that is morally wrong. Learn from it
> and avoid doing it any more, and you may one day even be forgiven.

Good one! Cute. Though next time he'll just come right out and say
whatever nasty bit of nonsense he'd been meaning to imply.

Still -- cute. Take opportunities like this one when you can, because
you'll usually only each of them once.

Although, every so often you run into some jerk who is so brain-
damaged that he doesn't show even *that* rudimentary level of learning
capability.

> >> If you can suggest a better way of rebutting all of your attacks and
> >> those of your "friends in rudeness",
>
> > "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and be prove=
d
> > to be a fool."
>
> Your only response to this is more name-calling?

What did you expect? He's probably (again, I haven't checked the
thread very thoroughly) been doing little else but call you names for
days now, so it stands to reason that the next thing he posts to this
thread will be another instance of calling you names.

> I'm disappointed in you.

Hate to tell you this, but shaming them doesn't work either. Nothing
works except their getting bored of being bastards (or their ISPs
getting bored of it on their behalf >:-)) so you generally just have
to tough it out and keep rebutting their nonsense until that happens.
Do complain to every ISP involved, and every upstream connectivity
provider, both their actual ISP and (if separate) their news provider,
mind you; you might shake a few of them off you that way and reduce
the workload a little.

> Although I know by now that your motives are evil, I'd have thought
> you'd try to keep up the pretense a little longer.

Ha! They don't care. I've had some goons, including one of these same
ones, actually come right out and admit to basically sociopathic
motives whilst in the middle of attacking me, admitting that it's like
pulling the wings off flies for amusement or similarly. Lars-hole
being one of these.

> Here, though, by
> responding to my perfectly sincere question with naught but more
> personal attacks you have proven to everyone, beyond a doubt, that you
> are bankrupt of anything worthwhile or reasonable to contribute to this
> thread and, quite possibly, this entire newsgroup.

They're an oddly-blind sort of narcissistic personality type -- only
their opinions count, everything is about them, but they also either
can't guess what others think of them for their stupid antics, or
simply do not care. Nothing can puncture their elevated self-regard,
least of all actual hard evidence of any sort. The approval and mutual
back-patting they get from their own kind suffices for them.

Trying to humiliate them won't succeed in doing that, though it's
still worth doing both to lower their credibility in the eyes of
others (thus making whatever they're saying about *you* less of a
threat) and for the sheer enjoyment of giving them the comeuppances
they so richly deserve.

> > Shutting up is a very effective way because people only get one side.
>
> A very effective way for people to only hear YOUR side? I'm sorry if I'm
> not more interested in just handing you victory on a silver platter

You'll find that not only do they keep trying to trick you like this,
but after 1000 failed attempts they will just keep on trying. They are
incapable of learning. It's one of the most universal characteristics
of these twizzle-sticks.

> That every time I rebut them, you post more nasty nonsense, instead of
> just deciding "well, now both sides of the story have been told, and
> people will decide what they will" and moving on, tells me a great deal
> about your motives, though.
>
> And I'm sure other people can draw the obvious inference regarding your
> motives as well.

See above about the odd form of "blind narcissism" that these clowns
exhibit. I think it's because they lack the ability to imagine or
empathize with anyone else's point of view or thinking-processes.
Basically, they are sociopaths.

> > Do I care what anyone else thinks of you? No.
>
> Yes. Or why do you expend so much energy not merely stating your opinion
> of me in public but repeating it every single time I respond to tell
> everyone why you're wrong?

My guess is that they really don't; they are just sociopaths and
sadists that enjoy tormenting anyone who rubs them the wrong way --
standing up to their more random bullying being sufficient to do so --
and the method these particular sociopaths have found for getting
their rocks off safely is to do it over the 'net where there's little
danger of someone kicking their asses, shooting them, calling the cops
and getting them thrown in jail, or what-have-you. And the best way to
do it over the net, where everyone can generally killfile anyone else,
is to do something nasty that their victims cannot ignore, which is
attacks on their reputation. So the reputation damage that they can
cause, while a genuine threat, is a mere *side effect* in many cases
and not their direct motivation. Destroying your public reputation and
possibly your future job prospects is just a means to an end for them,
though they pursue it with a passion.

> No. You posted a public personal attack on me and I rebutted it. You
> posted another one and I rebutted that. I do not intend to leave any
> public personal attack of yours lacking a public rebuttal by me. That
> means that YOU must be the first one to take it to email, or simply shut =
up.
>
> Then you get to have said your opinions of me exactly as many times as I
> get to have said my rebuttals of your opinions of me. You get to have
> said I'm bad exactly as many times as I get to have said I'm good.

Aww, but then Joshua won't get to have the last word!

> Sounds fair enough to me. Why are you insisting on getting to have said
> your piece one MORE time than I get to have said mine? What makes you so
> special? Oh, yeah -- you're the biggest stinking ASSHOLE in the group,
> that's what. :-P

And give that man another cigar.

> >> At least until he gets a nasty surprise in the form of a complaint
> >> from his internet provider about his conduct,
>
> > Once again, I'm not on an internet provider.
>
> Everyone here is on an internet provider, whether they call it that or
> not. The only way you could not be is if you hacked into a router or
> injected your nasty, miserable NNTP traffic directly into the fiber
> optics or something, which I find exceedingly unlikely.

These dweebs couldn't hack their way out of a paper bag. The only
"hacking" any of them has done was by one not apparently present in
this thread, and I suspect even he hired some script kiddie or
disgruntled Google employee to do the dirty work, lacking the skills
himself.

They're pathetic, the lot of them. Or they would be if they didn't
pose a genuine threat with the sheer amount of repetition they produce
when they decide to really get on your case.

> > And my experience with ISPs
> > is that generally they don't care one way or the other; all of the time=
s
> > I've reported abuse has gone unnoticed by the ISPs.
>
> That won't stop me from at least trying.

Good for you. Maybe you'll get lucky and cause at least one of them to
become a non-problem. Even if it's not one of the ones currently
pestering me, I'll cheer if you do. :)

> > And what makes you think that I care what you think about me? The fact
> > that you care what I think about you?
>
> The fact that YOU care what you think about me enough to post it in
> public. Repeatedly.

And Joshua gets pwn3d again.

Of course, intellect-wise, debating these clowns is like shooting fish
in a barrel. If they'd only actually *learn* instead of just
responding with denial and repetition, endless repetition...

> Sure you are. You are not being nice to me. Therefore you obviously
> believe that I did something to deserve your scorn and public hostility
> towards me.

The notion that he might just be using you for his own amusement --
"like flies to wanton boys" -- hasn't occurred to you? Unfortunately,
the internet has given sadistic psychopaths a "safe" outlet for their
desires, where there's a much reduced risk of getting arrested or shot
or other inconvenient things like that.

> Mind you, you're completely wrong. I'm innocent. I didn't do it. I am
> not any of those things -- stupid, incompetent, lazy, and crazy having
> been the main charges claimed.

Oh boy. All the usual intellect-based insults already used. Next come
the unwanted sexual innuendos and accusations of perversion, in my
experience. Brace yourself.

> Indeed, you've been wrong (or outright lied) about nearly everything
> that you've posted in this thread.

This, you'll find, is normal with drones.

> You did get one thing right in this latest post of yours, though. It was
> the part where you admitted that you don't have anything worthwhile to
> say, and you noted that anyone reading your crap quickly realizes this.

This, you'll find, is also normal with drones. Frequently they will
accidentally let something really stupid or incriminating slip out of
their mouths. They are very consistent in most respects, but not in
this, which is quite random and sporadic, nor in how they respond when
caught out: 1 in 3 chances of each of denial, proud acknowledgment(!),
or trying to rewrite history by claiming that they never wrote
whatever they wrote.

On Aug 18, 1:21=A0am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> (Arne misquotes me here. He quotes me quoting something by Joshua that I
> never actually quoted.)
>
> Now you're being brazenly dishonest and exceedingly rude. Shame on you!

Unfortunately, this is a very common and exceptionally aggravating
tendency of both Arne-hole and one other drone whom I shall not name
out of concern that doing so may attract him to start posting here.
Believe me, you *definitely* do not want that other drone to show up
in this thread; he's a particularly vicious, psychopathic bastard and
you'll find yourself cursing and swearing every time you see his name
after perhaps five posts from him. Maybe even after only two.

> > So not only are you a fan of NewsMaestro, but also of Twister.

Arne-hole is being quite insulting here just by mentioning my name in
the same breath as "NewsMaestro".

Of course, none of the nasty things that Arne has said or implied
about me are actually at all true.

> >> No. Nothing about me is "inaccurate" and I will not take kindly to any
> >> further nasty public insinuations to that effect.
>
> (Arne had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)

I'd recommend either just trimming such crap silently, or if there was
a personal attack in there replacing it with "[insults deleted]" and
responding with a blanket statement that there was no truth in any of
those insults. The less specific, the better, as it gives it a low
cross-section for them to attack.

You might also try a bit more active fighting-back by saying,
basically, "I know you are but what am I?", though not in so many
words due to the childish-comeback-in-the-school-playground
association factor. So, if someone calls you a liar you go "no,
*you're* the liar", which is perfectly true since presumably their
calling you a liar was, in fact, a lie ...

> >> Have I made myself clear NOW?

Unfortunately, the only message these dweebs understand is "login
denied -- your account has been suspended -- please phone 1-800-4HR-
HOLD" or the like. Complain to all apparently-relevant service
providers and to *their* service providers. Someone's chair *might*
catch fire, and the fire under some fat donut-eating desk-jockey's
arse *may* then motivate him to get off his duff and give one or two
of your attackers the boot.

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 19, 8:07 pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
>> Lars Enderin wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> replies correcting your various lies and rebutting your uncalled-for
>>>> personal attacks don't appear as direct responses to your posts on
>>>> servers that don't honor cancels. As a result, I have a lower
>>>> probability of reaching any given person who read some of your crap
>>>> with a rebuttal, and therefore you have a higher probability of
>>>> convincing them of your nasty and wrong-headed notions about me.)
>>> You [insult deleted], Twisted!
> 
> No, Lars is the stupid one, as evidenced by his thinking that clearly-
> attributed paragraph of Zerg's was posted by me instead.

I didn't AGREE with Lars, I just QUOTED him ...

> In another newsgroup, Lars-hole has been posting crap about me and
> I've been posting rebuttals of his crap for about a year now.

WHAT?!

Are you saying that once these people decide to start harassing someone 
they NEVER STOP?

Shit.

Now what the hell am I going to do? I can't spend an hour a day 
defending myself from their nonsense for the rest of my life!

Lars Enderin wrote:
> reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Aug 19, 8:07 pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
>>> Lars Enderin wrote:
>>>> zerg wrote:
>>>>> replies correcting your various lies and rebutting your uncalled-for
>>>>> personal attacks don't appear as direct responses to your posts on
>>>>> servers that don't honor cancels. As a result, I have a lower
>>>>> probability of reaching any given person who read some of your crap
>>>>> with a rebuttal, and therefore you have a higher probability of
>>>>> convincing them of your nasty and wrong-headed notions about me.)
>>>> You [insult deleted], Twisted!
>>
>> No, Lars is the stupid one, as evidenced by his thinking that clearly-
>> attributed paragraph of Zerg's was posted by me instead.

I just quoted you there. I didn't agree with you. Yet he seems rather 
snappy here.

I take it he's the famous Twisted?

Exactly how much crap HAVE you been throwing at him, anyway, that he 
reacts like this?

> Have you resorted to arguing with yourself now?

What? No. What the hell are you babbling about now?

> Well, that's probably the only one who might accept your arguments.

Actually, you'll probably find that there are lots of people out there 
that don't like bullies.

> As zerg, you have tried to hide some of your usual mannerisms

What the hell are you babbling about?

> but it's virtually impossible that somebody else (*) would post in
> your style. Too bad that you've reached the aoie.org posting limit
> today, so you cannot reply as zerg!

Oh, I get it -- you're a paranoid schizophrenic. Fortunately, I think 
they can treat that these days.

My posting this is hopefully sufficient by itself to prove you wrong. 
Regardless: I am not Twisted, nor have I reached any posting limits.

> [The rest is familiar crap from Twisted, not worth a reply]

No, it is not. It is neither crap nor from Twisted, and nothing that I 
write is worthless. You will stop saying such horrible and untrue things 
about me now, or you will be reported to your provider for abuse.

> *) It's a chilling prospect to consider that there might be more than 
> one "Twisted" out there. I sincerely hope there is not.

Why? Are you that afraid of people that stand up to your bullying that 
you're terrified of the possibility that you might actually be 
outnumbered by them?

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> I don't know what the hell you were originally trying to say here, but 
>> my guess is that it was a) a nasty insinuation of some sort or another 
>> and b) utterly wrong.
> 
> You're replying to the person who's been impersonating Arne, not Arne's 
> real postings.

I know. But I need to reply in my own defense to Arne's attack posts and 
often the altered version is the only one available for me to hang my 
response from (and guess at the contents of Arne's attacks from).

> Here's the easy way to distinguish between the two: Arne 
> does not have obscenities in the Reply-To header. The imposter does.

Don't patronize me. I could hardly care less which of them is actually 
attacking me in any given instance and besides, the only obscenities 
that concern me are the ones being directed AT me.

zerg wrote:
> On the other hand, I've seen people responding to posts by accusing the 
> poster of being "NewsMaestro" where those posts didn't have that server 
> in the Ukraine in the headers at all.

This part I wanted to respond to publicly.

There is enough evidence that the person forging the posts of Lew et al. 
is the same "NewsMaestro" person to be able to request a warrant, if 
this were a crime, IMO, but not enough to prove in a criminal court that 
the two identities are one and the same.

To wit:
1. The forged posts came in after he was told not to pitch NewsMaestro 
in here, and the original set was limited to those who had told him not 
to pitch it.
2. (This is the most circumstantial) One of the "aliases" posted exactly 
one message with the NewsMaestro signature, after which no signature 
appeared, using a server well-known for protecting privacy. While the 
lack of signature could merely indicate that the user was following 
netiquette, the post's contents tended to make this claim a bit 
outlandish, and number 3 gives more good evidence.
3. Someone (Cork Soaker, I believe) provoked said alias (intentionally, 
for the purpose of being forged), and was added to the list of users 
with forged repostings.

So that the identities are one and the same is probable, but not 
provable beyond a reasonable doubt with the limited information end 
users have access to.

> I'm starting to suspect that anyone here that you (collective) don't 
> like you accuse of being Twisted,

I never accused you of being Twisted, because I think the evidence 
overwhelmingly indicates you aren't, including, notably, writing styles 
and posting means.

> whether or not the post headers support the 
> accusation.

Headers are not the only thing I can use to formulate identity 
equivalence. Someone who writes like a hillbilly is probably not an 
Oxford graduate (not that I'm accusing you of being a hillbilly or an 
Oxford graduate, it's just an example of how you can deduce non-identity 
of someone by writing style).

> And there's the supposed "NewsMaestro" posts that may actually be by 
> that person, for all I know, but whose post headers do not point to the 
> Ukraine.

Aioe munges the headers to protect identity. Timing of posts do 
correlate to the idea that said identities are posting near each other 
longitudinally, and it certainly supports the thesis that the poster is 
in the European longitudes (would be evening for those time zones).

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> zerg wrote:

>> I'm starting to suspect that anyone here that you (collective) don't 
>> like you accuse of being Twisted,
> 
> I never accused you of being Twisted, because I think the evidence 
> overwhelmingly indicates you aren't, including, notably, writing styles 
> and posting means.
> 
I think you're wrong about this. Any changes in writing style are made 
in an attempt to disguise the fact that zerg is Twisted. He even 
pretends to argue with Twisted, but that is just a sham. He has to 
invent a friend, because he certainly hasn't made any in Usenet. He uses 
aoie.org to access this group, and Google Groups to make the same 
preposterous claims and accusations in alt.off-topic as he does here. In 
alt.off-topic, he claims that he's repeatedly been stopped from posting 
because of some limit, so he uses six or more different aliases. This 
does not work with aoie.org, which allows only 25 postings/day from the 
same IP.

zerg wrote:
> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
> three candidates:
> 
> revalidate()
> repaint()
> update()

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION AGAIN?
7 DAYS
171 ARTICLES
ZERG WINS
YOU LOSE




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"George Bush has been surrounding himself with people
who believe in one-world government. They believe that
the Soviet system and the American system are
converging."

--- David Funderburk, former U. S. Ambassador to Romania
    October 29, 1991

zerg wrote:
> What's the best way to force a JComponent to repaint itself? I've got 
> three candidates:
> 
> revalidate()
> repaint()
> update()

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION AGAIN?
7 DAYS
171 ARTICLES
ZERG WINS
YOU LOSE

On Aug 19, 10:30=A0pm, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> reckonin...@gmail.com wrote:
> > None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
> > all true.
>
> Back to gmail !
>
> Did you reach aioe.org's max posting per day limit ?

What? No. I don't use aioe.

On Aug 19, 3:58=A0pm, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> reckonin...@gmail.com wrote:
> > None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
> > all true.
>
> Back to gmail !
>
> Did you boil mediator.org's max posting per hour limit ?

What? No, I don't use mediator.org.

On Aug 20, 12:06=A0am, Lars Enderin <lars.hole...@telia.com> wrote:
> reckonin...@gmail.com wrote:
> > No, Lars is the stupid one, as evidenced by his thinking that clearly-
> > attributed paragraph of Zerg's was posted by me instead.
>
> Have you resorted to arguing with yourself now?

What? No, I'm arguing with you, asshole.

> Well, [insult deleted].

No. None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
are at all true.

> As zerg, you have

I am not Zerg, you moron.

> [implied insults deleted]

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

> Too bad that you've reached the aoie.org posting limit today

I don't use aioe, so obviously I can't have reached their posting
limit.

You are a moron.

> [insult deleted]

No, you're the one posting crap.

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

> *) [implied insult deleted]

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

On Aug 20, 12:47=A0am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> reckonin...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Aug 19, 8:07 pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> >> Lars Enderin wrote:
> >>> You [insult deleted], Twisted!
>
> > No, Lars is the stupid one, as evidenced by his thinking that clearly-
> > attributed paragraph of Zerg's was posted by me instead.
>
> I didn't AGREE with Lars, I just QUOTED him ...

Verbatim. And didn't contradict it. So I need to rebut the insult all
over again, since someone who reads your post and sees it in there is
most likely to also see a rebuttal if such a rebuttal appears in a
direct reply to your post.

> > In another newsgroup, Lars-hole has been posting crap about me and
> > I've been posting rebuttals of his crap for about a year now.
>
> WHAT?!
>
> Are you saying that once these people decide to start harassing someone
> they NEVER STOP?

Apparently.

> Shit.
>
> Now what the hell am I going to do?

Clear your calendar?

> I can't spend an hour a day defending myself from their nonsense for the =
rest of my life!

It's that, or (if they're determined enough) watch them demolish your
reputation by spreading vile, filthy, completely bogus rumors about
you until eventually you can't get a job, can't buy food, starve, and
die.

On Aug 20, 12:53=A0am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> I take it he's the famous Twisted?

That would be correct.

> Exactly how much crap HAVE you been throwing at him, anyway, that he
> reacts like this?

You do not want to know.

Though you're probably going to find out anyway.

A year from now, you're likely to be in the same position I'm in now,
unless these twerps inexplicably decide to go easy on you. In my
experience, they just don't quit. Once they decide to start ragging
you, they will never, ever stop, and will ramp up the volume to
ridiculous levels and then sustain it there month after month after
month.

> > Have you resorted to arguing with yourself now?
>
> What? No. What the hell are you babbling about now?

He's an idiot and a paranoid nutbag. Ergo, he thinks you're me. I'd
just killfile the lunatic if I could be assured that everyone else in
the world would do likewise, so he couldn't go on to influence people
behind my back. Unfortunately, Lars poses a serious threat and cannot
safely be ignored, which means wasting time rebutting his nonsense
when both Lars and I (and you, now) could be doing something
productive instead if only Lars would get the hint and SHUT THE FUCK
UP...

> > Well, [insult deleted]

None of the nasty things that Lars has said or implied about me are at
all true.

> Actually, you'll probably find that there are lots of people out there
> that don't like bullies.

Indeed.

Maybe someday Lars-hole will overstretch himself trying to destroy too
many of them at once.

> > As zerg, you have tried to hide some of your usual mannerisms
>
> What the hell are you babbling about?

The usual paranoid stupidity -- he thinks you're me. :P

> > but it's virtually impossible that somebody else (*) would post in
> > your style. Too bad that you've reached the aoie.org posting limit
> > today, so you cannot reply as zerg!
>
> Oh, I get it -- you're a paranoid schizophrenic. Fortunately, I think
> they can treat that these days.

Somehow, I don't think he'd be willing to stay on his meds.

> My posting this is hopefully sufficient by itself to prove you wrong.

To any rational person? Probably. To Lars-hole? Probably not.

> > [insult deleted]

Lars is the one posting crap.

None of the nasty things that Lars has said or implied about me are at
all true.

> No, it is not. It is neither crap nor from Twisted, and nothing that I
> write is worthless. You will stop saying such horrible and untrue things
> about me now, or you will be reported to your provider for abuse.

Attaboy! If you can get rid of that particular twerp, I'll cheer quite
loudly.

> > *) [implied insult deleted]

None of the nasty things that Lars has said or implied about me are at
all true.

> Why? Are you that afraid of people that stand up to your bullying that
> you're terrified of the possibility that you might actually be
> outnumbered by them?

Most likely, he's just being insulting for the sake of being
insulting.

But I kind of like the thought that maybe, deep down, he's terrified
of people like us that see through his bluff and bluster, recognize
his crap for what it is (it's the smell!), and won't just meekly
accept whatever he chooses to dish out in the way of bullshit.

Only his psychiatrist can be 100% sure, though, of that or of the
(rather plausible) paranoid schizophrenia and sociopath diagnoses.

On Aug 20, 9:24=A0am, Lars Enderin <lars.ende...@telia.com> wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> > zerg wrote:
> >> I'm starting to suspect that anyone here that you (collective) don't
> >> like you accuse of being Twisted,
>
> > I never accused you of being Twisted, because I think the evidence
> > overwhelmingly indicates you aren't, including, notably, writing styles
> > and posting means.
>
> I think you're wrong about this. Any changes in writing style are made
> in an attempt to disguise the fact that zerg is Twisted. He even
> pretends to argue with Twisted, but that is just a sham.

You are wrong, and you probably know it, i.e. you probably are
deliberately lying.

> He [implied insults deleted].

No. None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
are at all true.

> He uses aoie.org to access this group

I do not.

> and Google Groups to [insults deleted].

No. None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
are at all true.

> In alt.off-topic, [implied insults and other nonsense deleted]

No. None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
are at all true.

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> I'm starting to suspect that anyone here that you (collective) don't 
>> like you accuse of being Twisted,
> 
> I never accused you of being Twisted, because I think the evidence 
> overwhelmingly indicates you aren't, including, notably, writing styles 
> and posting means.

Note that I said "you (collective)"; specific exceptions may occur.

> Aioe munges the headers to protect identity. Timing of posts do 
> correlate to the idea that said identities are posting near each other 
> longitudinally

Are you really sure? A 16 hours up, 8 hours down duty cycle for the 
average human being only really lets you eliminate about 1/3 of the 
planet's surface. And if you have the kind of luck that I usually enjoy, 
that third will happen to be the Pacific Ocean.

Lars Enderin wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
> 
>>> I'm starting to suspect that anyone here that you (collective) don't 
>>> like you accuse of being Twisted,
>>
>> I never accused you of being Twisted, because I think the evidence 
>> overwhelmingly indicates you aren't, including, notably, writing 
>> styles and posting means.
>>
> I think you're wrong about this.

And I KNOW that YOU'RE wrong about this.

> Any changes in writing style are made 
> in an attempt to disguise the fact that zerg is Twisted. He even 
> pretends to argue with Twisted, but that is just a sham.

Actually, I'd say it's more that Twisted has argued with me. I haven't 
done anything intentionally to offend the guy. Whatever you did to him 
that has him on such a hair trigger probably requires one hell of an 
apology though!

(Lars has nothing else worthwhile to say -- just a large paragraph of 
pointless personal attacks directed against Twisted)

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> Unfortunately, this is a very common and exceptionally aggravating
> tendency of both Arne-hole and one other drone whom I shall not name
> out of concern that doing so may attract him to start posting here.
> Believe me, you *definitely*

Whoa. Bold.

test

*test*

>> (Arne had nothing worthwhile to say in response to this.)
> 
> I'd recommend either just trimming such crap silently, or if there was
> a personal attack in there replacing it with "[insults deleted]" and
> responding with a blanket statement that there was no truth in any of
> those insults. The less specific, the better, as it gives it a low
> cross-section for them to attack.
> 
> You might also try a bit more active fighting-back by saying,
> basically, "I know you are but what am I?", though not in so many
> words due to the childish-comeback-in-the-school-playground
> association factor. So, if someone calls you a liar you go "no,
> *you're* the liar", which is perfectly true since presumably their
> calling you a liar was, in fact, a lie ...

I'll take these suggestions under advisement.

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 17, 7:04 pm, Arne Vajh�j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> even if [implied insult deleted]
> 
> None of the nasty things that Zerg has said or implied about me are at
> all true.

Erk -- nothing that I said there was meant as an insult.

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 16, 11:56 pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
>> even if he [insult deleted]
> 
> Aww, and then you had to go and spoil it with that.
> 
> No.
> 
> None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
> all true.

Hoo boy. That was not really meant to be a negative judgment or anything 
of the sort, just an observation.

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 17, 12:14 pm, Arne Vajh�j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
(actually, I wrote what's next, well, at least the "even if" part)
>>> even if [implied insult deleted]
> 
> None of the nasty things that Zerg has said or implied about me are at
> all true.

Urrkh. That was NOT meant as any kind of negative judgment. Sigh.

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> I haven't read this entire thread, so far, just jumped to the bits where
> my name comes up, but let me guess anyway: [Joshua] and several other
> newsgroup regulars have been pontificating on matters they know little
> about, presuming to speak for everybody in the entire newsgroup if not
> the world, and generally behaving like twerps and so-and-sos?

That's about the size of it. How'd you guess? Let me speculate -- 
they've done this sort of thing lots of times before and they are 
completely incapable of changing their ways? Thought as much. Sigh.

>> 2. You believe that inheritance does not represent an is-a relationship,
>> in violation of every text on OOP I have ever seen.

I believe that inheritance does not represent an is-a relationship in a 
few fairly rare, mostly shoddy cases, and that it does the rest of the time.

> You may find that a surprising number of people believe as you claim
> Zerg does, some of them well-respected in OOP circles.
> 
> Bjarne Stroustrup is apparently one of them, since C++ has "private"
> inheritance (and protected, too).

Actually, I'd mentioned that already somewhere.

> I agree though that this is a misfeature of C++ language; delegation
> and composition should be used instead of inheritance for this sort of
> thing.

Likewise. Too bad we sometimes have to work with bad code written by 
other people long-since-fired.

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 20, 12:47 am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
>> reckonin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Aug 19, 8:07 pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
>>>> Lars Enderin wrote:
>>>>> You [insult deleted], Twisted!
>>> No, Lars is the stupid one, as evidenced by his thinking that clearly-
>>> attributed paragraph of Zerg's was posted by me instead.
>> I didn't AGREE with Lars, I just QUOTED him ...
> 
> Verbatim. And didn't contradict it. So I need to rebut the insult all
> over again, since someone who reads your post and sees it in there is
> most likely to also see a rebuttal if such a rebuttal appears in a
> direct reply to your post.

Argh. That complicates things, but I guess you're right. I know I 
wouldn't like to see tons of nonsense about me repeated and quoted ad 
nauseam.

I'll try to trim insults directed at you or anyone else here (well, 
anyone else that hasn't badly mistreated me recently, anyway).

>> Are you saying that once these people decide to start harassing someone
>> they NEVER STOP?
> 
> Apparently.

Shit.

>> Now what the hell am I going to do?
> 
> Clear your calendar?

Shit.

>> I can't spend an hour a day defending myself from their nonsense for the rest of my life!
> 
> It's that, or (if they're determined enough) watch them demolish your
> reputation by spreading vile, filthy, completely bogus rumors about
> you until eventually you can't get a job, can't buy food, starve, and
> die.

If it gets bad enough, I'll just ditch this relatively brain-dead news 
provider and find a better one. I doubt any of these twizzle-sticks 
(nice one, by the way!) could track down who "zerg" really is even if 
offered a few zillion bucks by Bill Gates or somebody to do so.

I haven't much invested in this particular news account, so it's 
somewhat expendable, though having to change would be rather annoying.

reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
>> Then you should call him on violating the newsgroup's charter.
> 
> He should do no such thing. I have done nothing wrong and I will not
> put up with accusations like Joshua's.

That was a hypothetical -- IF Joshua's charges against you were actually 
true, which you seem to dispute. If his charges are false, and after how 
he's treated ME lately I can believe that they might well be, then 
obviously what I said above does not turn out to apply.

>> If any of the three is a persistent thorn in your side, then you should
>> killfile the thorn.
> 
> I object: I am not a thorn.

Again, IF. If you're not a thorn, then there is no need for anyone to 
killfile you.

>> Hurling abuse at people in public can not serve any useful function and
>> will generally only make things worse. Making things personal is never
>> the way to get what you want from someone; it makes them resentful and
>> likely to resist your wishes purely out of spite. It may also make it
>> into a matter of honor for them, where they cannot back down or concede
>> your valid points without also implicitly accepting the personal insults
>> that you have mixed with those points, and they are understandably
>> unwilling to do the latter.
> 
> Don't waste your breath. I don't think most of these clowns are
> capable of learning or of original thought. :P

Unfortunately, I'm beginning to suspect that you're right about that.

zerg wrote:
> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> zerg wrote:
>>> Fortissimo GUI wrote:
>>>> In article <910K19557@143.246.77.171>, pickedvandal@mail.psp.co.uk 
>>>> (L.Ibanez) wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't see any post by that name, but I see a purported reply to 
>>> such a post. Why?
>>
>> FWIW, this is one of the NewsMaestro's aliases.
>>
>> And the Arne's postings to which he was replying was also a forged 
>> message (you can generally tell by the obscenities in the "Reply-To" 
>> header).
> 
> The only obscenities that concern me right now are the ones being 
> directed at me.
> 
> I'd reply to Arne's original little piles of nasty lies if I had them 
> here to reply to; given the constraints of reality, I'll settle for 
> replying to the slightly more coherent and less nasty substitute posts.
> 
> Still, curse that NewsMaestro for robbing me of the ability to make my 
> rebuttals appear as direct responses to Arne's vicious lies!

You must be Twisted -- nobody else would call what Arne writes "vicious 
lies".
I don't know how it is done, but many of Arne's post seem to have 
disappeared from c.l.j.p as seen via aoie.org, but not from my normal 
news server or from Google Groups. That you still feel compelled to 
reply to the fake posts is a strong indication that you are indeed 
Twisted/reckoning54/twerpinator/...etc. Such an obsession is not 
healthy, but that is what Twisted does all the time. He even "rebuts" 
the same (always true) statements both in the original and in any later 
  posts where they are quoted. Arne listed ten points of similarity 
between zerg and Twisted, which may have been corrupted by NewsMaestro, 
but they were right on the dot. If you are in fact somebody else than 
Twisted, you should think twice about trusting anything he writes. 
Nobody in his right mind can believe his "counterattacks".

Hi,

For a more detailed view of pathological narcissism and the
Narcissistic
Personality Disorder (NPD) - click on these links:

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/npdglance.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html

Other Personality Disorders

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faqpd.html

Pathological Narcissism and Other Mental Health Disorders

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq82.html

NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and AsPD (Antisocial
Personality
Disorder, Psychopathy, or Sociopathy)

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders16.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders15.html

Cyber Narcissist

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal67.html

============================================
Pathological Narcissism, Narcissistic Personality disorder and
Psychopathy
============================================
Does the Narcissist Have a Multiple Personality (Dissociative Identity
Disorder)?

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4950

Narcissists as Drama Queens

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4948

The Narcissist as Know-it-all

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4945

The Narcissist as VAMPIRE or MACHINE

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4944

Narcissists and Psychopaths Devalue Their Psychotherapists

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4939

Violent, Vindictive, Sadistic, and Psychopathic Narcissists

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4938

Portrait of the Narcissist as a Young Man

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5048

Grandiosity, Fantasies, and Narcissism

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4923

Narcissists and Emotions

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5248

Narcissists and Mood Disorders

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5067

Sam

zerg wrote:
> reckoning54@gmail.com wrote:
>> Unfortunately, this is a very common and exceptionally aggravating
>> tendency of both Arne-hole and one other drone whom I shall not name
>> out of concern that doing so may attract him to start posting here.
>> Believe me, you *definitely*
> 
> Whoa. Bold.
> 
> test
> 
> *test*

Ooh, nifty! It works!

Lars Enderin wrote:
> zerg wrote:
>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>> zerg wrote:
>>>> Fortissimo GUI wrote:
>>>>> In article <910K19557@143.246.77.171>, pickedvandal@mail.psp.co.uk 
>>>>> (L.Ibanez) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any post by that name, but I see a purported reply to 
>>>> such a post. Why?
>>>
>>> FWIW, this is one of the NewsMaestro's aliases.
>>>
>>> And the Arne's postings to which he was replying was also a forged 
>>> message (you can generally tell by the obscenities in the "Reply-To" 
>>> header).
>>
>> The only obscenities that concern me right now are the ones being 
>> directed at me.
>>
>> I'd reply to Arne's original little piles of nasty lies if I had them 
>> here to reply to; given the constraints of reality, I'll settle for 
>> replying to the slightly more coherent and less nasty substitute posts.
>>
>> Still, curse that NewsMaestro for robbing me of the ability to make my 
>> rebuttals appear as direct responses to Arne's vicious lies!
> 
> You must be Twisted

Sorry -- wrong again.

> nobody else would call what Arne writes "vicious lies".

Well, I hate to break the news to you, but someone else just *did*.

> a strong indication that you are indeed Twisted

Nope. Sorry. And your repeated, *identical* wrong guesses are getting 
very tiresome indeed.

(Lars has nothing else worthwhile to say here.)

On Aug 21, 10:39=A0am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> Lars Enderin wrote:
> > Joshua Cranmer wrote:
> >> I never accused you of being Twisted, because I think the evidence
> >> overwhelmingly indicates you aren't, including, notably, writing
> >> styles and posting means.
>
> > I think you're wrong about this.
>
> And I KNOW that YOU'RE wrong about this.

For those confused by the above -- zerg is NOT me.

> > Any changes in writing style are made
> > in an attempt to disguise the fact that zerg is Twisted. He even
> > pretends to argue with Twisted, but that is just a sham.

These are lies.

> Actually, I'd say it's more that Twisted has argued with me. I haven't
> done anything intentionally to offend the guy. Whatever you did to him
> that has him on such a hair trigger probably requires one hell of an
> apology though!

It does indeed, and I have yet to receive that apology.

> (Lars has nothing else worthwhile to say -- just a large paragraph of
> pointless personal attacks directed against Twisted)

This, you'll find, is entirely normal with Lars.

(Missed me? I was away on business for two weeks.)

On Aug 21, 10:41=A0am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> reckonin...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Unfortunately, this is a very common and exceptionally aggravating
> > tendency of both Arne-hole and one other drone whom I shall not name
> > out of concern that doing so may attract him to start posting here.
> > Believe me, you *definitely*
>
> Whoa. Bold.
>
> test
>
> *test*

Eh?

On Aug 21, 10:43=A0am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> reckonin...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Aug 16, 11:56 pm, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> >> even if he [insult deleted]
>
> > Aww, and then you had to go and spoil it with that.
>
> > No.
>
> > None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
> > all true.
>
> Hoo boy. That was not really meant to be a negative judgment or anything
> of the sort, just an observation.

I'll decide that.

On Aug 21, 10:47=A0am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> reckonin...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I haven't read this entire thread, so far, just jumped to the bits wher=
e
> > my name comes up, but let me guess anyway: [Joshua] and several other
> > newsgroup regulars have been pontificating on matters they know little
> > about, presuming to speak for everybody in the entire newsgroup if not
> > the world, and generally behaving like twerps and so-and-sos?
>
> That's about the size of it. How'd you guess? Let me speculate --
> they've done this sort of thing lots of times before and they are
> completely incapable of changing their ways?

Yup.

> Thought as much. Sigh.

Indeed.

On Aug 21, 10:52=A0am, zerg <z...@zerg.org> wrote:
> I'll try to trim insults directed at you or anyone else here (well,
> anyone else that hasn't badly mistreated me recently, anyway).

Thank you.

On Aug 21, 12:08=A0pm, Lars Enderin <lars.ende...@telia.com> wrote:
> zerg wrote:
> > I'd reply to Arne's original little piles of nasty lies if I had them
> > here to reply to; given the constraints of reality, I'll settle for
> > replying to the slightly more coherent and less nasty substitute posts.
>
> > Still, curse that NewsMaestro for robbing me of the ability to make my
> > rebuttals appear as direct responses to Arne's vicious lies!
>
> You must be Twisted

BZZT! Wrong again.

> nobody else would call what Arne writes "vicious lies".

Apparently, somebody else would, and indeed somebody else *did*. So
BZZT! Strike two.

> That you still feel compelled to
> reply to the fake posts is a strong indication that you are indeed
> Twisted/reckoning54/twerpinator/...etc.

And BZZZZZT! There's strike three. Yeeeer outta here!

> [insults deleted, aimed at both me and Zerg]

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

> Arne listed ten points of similarity between zerg and Twisted

No, he did not. He listed ten insults and accused both me and Zerg of
them, but of course he was wrong, and most likely intentionally lying.

> but they were right on the dot.

No, they were not.

I am not Zerg.

None of the nasty things that Arne has said or implied about me are at
all true.

> [insults deleted, including calling me a liar]

No, you're the liar and the crazy one.

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.

On Aug 22, 11:25=A0am, samvaknin <vak...@mt.net.mk> wrote:
> [extremely lengthy implied insult deleted]

No, you're the crazy one.

None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.