f



What is left alive?

  So, they say

      - Java applets are dead
      - Java on the desktop is dead

  So, what is still alive?

      - Java on the server (JEE)
      - Java on Android

  Anything else?

  Maybe

      - Java as a teaching language

  But maybe Python is threatening Java as a teaching
  language?

  Is Node.js a threat on the server?

  And Java on Android is not real Java (it is not Java SE, no
  AWT, no Swing, no JavaFX). (Yes, IIRC there is a project to
  bring JavaFX to Android, why does Oracle not do this more
  aggressively bringing a JDK for Android?)

0
ram
11/30/2016 12:05:59 AM
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On 11/29/2016 7:05 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>   So, they say
>
>       - Java applets are dead

Stone dead.

>       - Java on the desktop is dead

Depends on the definition of dead.

:-)

Relative little market.

But there are people that make their living writing Java desktop apps.

Including some here.

>   So, what is still alive?
>
>       - Java on the server (JEE)

Yes

>       - Java on Android

Yes

>   Anything else?

Big data.

Hadoop and all the stuff around it and similar stuff.

>   Maybe
>
>       - Java as a teaching language
>
>   But maybe Python is threatening Java as a teaching
>   language?

I don't think so.

I think that teaching Python to non-IT people that need to
"program" makes sense.

But for teaching IT people I think Java (or C#) is a much
better choice.

>   Is Node.js a threat on the server?

I don't see node.js competing much with Java EE. Light vs heavy.

Most of those that use node.js would otherwise have been using PHP or RoR.

>   And Java on Android is not real Java (it is not Java SE, no
>   AWT, no Swing, no JavaFX).

True.

But it is enough Java to be a Java skill.

Think of Android GUI like SWT - just another third party GUI framwork.

>                             (Yes, IIRC there is a project to
>   bring JavaFX to Android, why does Oracle not do this more
>   aggressively bringing a JDK for Android?)

I thought Java SE Embedded actually did run on Android.

But anyway - no matter what Oracle does to bring SE and JavaFX to
Android, then I can not see it push the Android GUI out.

And more importantly - I can not see Oracle making big money
on it.

Arne



0
UTF
11/30/2016 1:15:11 AM
On Wednesday, 30 November 2016 01:15:25 UTC, Arne Vajh=C3=B8j  wrote:

> >       - Java on the desktop is dead
>=20
> Depends on the definition of dead.

Was that ever alive?

> >       - Java on the server (JEE)
> >       - Java on Android

Technically, this is not "what's left". It's the vast majority of Java syst=
ems today on the market.=20
0
a
11/30/2016 9:20:37 AM
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>- Java on the desktop is dead

  But then, Java on the desktop is /not/ dead
  when it comes to the development desktop
  (javac, Netbeans, Eclipse, Scene Builder, ...)!

0
ram
12/1/2016 5:38:56 AM
Stefan Ram wrote:

>   So, what is still alive?
> 
>       - Java on the server (JEE)

JEE != Java on the server but otherwise you're correct

>       - Java on Android

Yes but there are attempts to chnage that to a more
native approach.

>   Anything else?

BluRay, Setop boxes
Mindcraft ;-)


Cheers, Lothar
-- 
Lothar Kimmeringer                E-Mail: spamfang@kimmeringer.de
               PGP-encrypted mails preferred (Key-ID: 0x8BC3CD81)

Always remember: The answer is forty-two, there can only be wrong
                 questions!
0
Lothar
12/1/2016 11:28:17 AM
On 12/1/2016 12:38 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>> - Java on the desktop is dead
>
>   But then, Java on the desktop is /not/ dead
>   when it comes to the development desktop
>   (javac, Netbeans, Eclipse, Scene Builder, ...)!

True.

Java developers usually eat their own dog food.

But Java developer tools is not a lucrative market.

Arne


0
UTF
12/2/2016 2:37:17 AM
On 01/12/2016 11:28, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:
> Stefan Ram wrote:
>
>>    So, what is still alive?
>>
>>        - Java on the server (JEE)
>
> JEE != Java on the server but otherwise you're correct
>
>>        - Java on Android
>
> Yes but there are attempts to chnage that to a more
> native approach.
>
>>    Anything else?
>
> BluRay, Setop boxes
> Mindcraft ;-)
>
>
> Cheers, Lothar


>




If Java on the desktop is not dead, then it appears to be in decline, 
but that may be due in part to the decline in desktop and laptop 
computers generally.

But theres a few other factors to consider


First, the cross platform portability which was one of the initial 
attractions of Java addresses a problem which has largely disappeared, 
for the simple reason that the platforms have just faded away. We now 
have a computing landscape which is largely dominated by Intel 
processors and a relatively small number of operating systems, leading 
to fewer requirements for cross platform development.

Second, in a lot of commercial environments, its relatively easy to use 
remote desktop clients and products like Exceed and Xming to get access 
to non-native or remote applications, thus eliminating the need for 
porting - to the point where I can hardly remember the last time I heard 
anybody use the term "porting"

Alternatively, on a more modest scale, its quite easy now to use 
virtualisation tools like VMWare and Virtualbox to fire up alternative 
operating systems and get to our destination

There's a number of other factors involved too, including the 
proliferation of remote database bound applications which effectively 
turn the laptop in to a thin client, so less dependent on local raw 
computing power, but I suspect that one of the most important reasons 
for the decline is this ...

If we get out of our predominately Apple Mac and Unix / Linux equipped 
ivory towers for a while and get down to the nearest computer store, we 
might find that the majority (maybe more than 90% in some areas) of 
laptop and desktop products are sold with Windows 10 preinstalled.
Just fire one up and start the CLI, and then type in the magic words 
"java - version" - and the problem is laid bare for you. In other words, 
executable jars simply WILL NOT WORK out of the box for the majority of 
the products in the marketplace because there is no JRE installed.
Add in the security hurdles which now make it more difficult to use the 
JNLP to start applications anyway and you have a problem.
As soon as Joe Public has to start downloading and installing software 
for himself you are fighting a losing battle

Anyway, as we are often told about the lightning speed of change in the 
computer industry, should any of us be surprised at something going out 
of fashion after more than 20 years ?

Cheers  ... AT

0
Abandoned
12/2/2016 12:13:49 PM
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 7:14:08 AM UTC-5, Abandoned Trolley wrote:
> If Java on the desktop is not dead, then it appears to be in decline, 
> but that may be due in part to the decline in desktop and laptop 
> computers generally.
> 
> But theres a few other factors to consider

I hate when people just try to say Java is a dying language in a Java forum.
Why would you say that?  What is a good reason not to use Java?  What language now does everything Java does that somehow works better?
I think other languages are and/or should be dying languages because of their limitations but I haven't found anything yet I can't do with Java, and the big businesses from Google to Microsoft are supporting it with APIs.
0
Eric
12/2/2016 2:48:48 PM
On 02/12/2016 14:48, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 7:14:08 AM UTC-5, Abandoned Trolley wrote:
>> If Java on the desktop is not dead, then it appears to be in decline,
>> but that may be due in part to the decline in desktop and laptop
>> computers generally.
>>
>> But theres a few other factors to consider
>
> I hate when people just try to say Java is a dying language in a Java forum.
> Why would you say that?  What is a good reason not to use Java?  What language now does everything Java does that somehow works better?
> I think other languages are and/or should be dying languages because of their limitations but I haven't found anything yet I can't do with Java, and the big businesses from Google to Microsoft are supporting it with APIs.
>


I was not suggesting that Java does not "do stuff" - just saying 
(mainly) that the portability argument may no longer be valid.

My point might be reinforced if the rumours of the end of SPARC turn out 
to be true

  ... AT


0
Abandoned
12/2/2016 3:37:26 PM
On Friday, 2 December 2016 14:48:55 UTC, Eric Douglas  wrote:

[...]
> I hate when people just try to say Java is a dying language 

That's not what they're saying. They're talking about specific usages of Java. It's different.
0
a
12/3/2016 1:57:09 AM
On 03.12.2016 02:57, a.laforgia@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 2 December 2016 14:48:55 UTC, Eric Douglas  wrote:
>
> [...]
>> I hate when people just try to say Java is a dying language
>
> That's not what they're saying. They're talking about specific usages of Java. It's different.

I find this type of discussion quite futile.  Everybody brings their 
anecdotal experience to the table, then a lot of speculation is 
sprouting and eventually, even with hard facts available about trends in 
the industry, the situation is different for everybody because of their 
location, industry or other niche.

Cheers

	robert

-- 
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
0
Robert
12/3/2016 10:34:48 AM
On 12/03/2016 11:34 AM, Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 03.12.2016 02:57, a.laforgia@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, 2 December 2016 14:48:55 UTC, Eric Douglas  wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>> I hate when people just try to say Java is a dying language
>>
>> That's not what they're saying. They're talking about specific usages
>> of Java. It's different.
>
> I find this type of discussion quite futile.  Everybody brings their
> anecdotal experience to the table, then a lot of speculation is
> sprouting and eventually, even with hard facts available about trends in
> the industry, the situation is different for everybody because of their
> location, industry or other niche.
>
> Cheers
>
>     robert
>

I disagree. The discussion is important for people who are entering the 
world of software development or need to decide on a tool set for 
building a new system. They have to have an idea of where things are 
going to prevent them from wasting time on stuff that is becoming obsolete.

The fact that some dinosaurs here choose to deny reality and insist 
their pet tools are still as relevant as ever makes it hard for the 
newcomers to decide who to believe.

The facts are simple: desktop Java except Android is heading for 
oblivion. Server side Java thrives and is probably even the dominant 
server side platform. Apart from mobile apps the trend in user 
interfaces is HTML/CSS/JavaScript. And that is the case for an ever 
increasing number of mobile applications as well.
0
Silvio
12/4/2016 10:39:13 AM
On Saturday, 3 December 2016 10:35:08 UTC, Robert Klemme  wrote:

[...]
> I find this type of discussion quite futile.

Like most discussions on newsgroups today.
Discussions become futile especially when someone does not get their point.


0
a
12/5/2016 2:13:25 PM
On 12/4/2016 5:39 AM, Silvio wrote:
> The facts are simple: desktop Java except Android is heading for
> oblivion.

It was never that big in the first place.

>  Apart from mobile apps the trend in user
> interfaces is HTML/CSS/JavaScript. And that is the case for an ever
> increasing number of mobile applications as well.

The trend for native vs HTML 5 based mobile seems to change
every 3 months.

Arne

0
UTF
12/6/2016 2:37:06 AM
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 9:37:16 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajh=C3=B8j wrote:
> On 12/4/2016 5:39 AM, Silvio wrote:
> > The facts are simple: desktop Java except Android is heading for
> > oblivion.
>=20
> It was never that big in the first place.
>=20

Pure Java Swing apps maybe not, but Java based apps like PeopleSoft would b=
e much more popular.

> >  Apart from mobile apps the trend in user
> > interfaces is HTML/CSS/JavaScript. And that is the case for an ever
> > increasing number of mobile applications as well.
>=20
> The trend for native vs HTML 5 based mobile seems to change
> every 3 months.
>=20
> Arne

I haven't gotten around to learning mobile coding because of the wide range=
 of technology.  It really helps developers when platforms focus on one mai=
n language.  Do I learn HTML4, HTML5, CSS, Objective C, Swift, Android Java=
....?
0
Eric
12/6/2016 1:08:12 PM
On 12/06/2016 02:08 PM, Eric Douglas wrote:

>
> I haven't gotten around to learning mobile coding because of the wide range of technology.  It really helps developers when platforms focus on one main language.  Do I learn HTML4, HTML5, CSS, Objective C, Swift, Android Java...?
>

Depends on what you intend to do. If you want to develop some really 
nifty mobile app that needs to utilize specific native interfaces like 
accessing contacts or trigger notifications your only option is, and 
probably will be for quite some time, creating actual native apps using 
Java when targeting Android or Swift (maybe objective C) for iOS.

If you simply need to build applications that work on any contemporary 
platform and device (I propose we call this WORA from now on) simply 
learn to build responsive web applications. HTML5, CSS and some JS will 
mostly do.

On the server side (if at all necessary) do whatever you like.
0
Silvio
12/6/2016 5:46:04 PM
On 12/6/2016 8:08 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 9:37:16 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/4/2016 5:39 AM, Silvio wrote:
>>> The facts are simple: desktop Java except Android is heading for
>>> oblivion.
>>
>> It was never that big in the first place.
>
> Pure Java Swing apps maybe not, but Java based apps like PeopleSoft would be much more popular.

There are tons of Java server side.

I believe that Peoplesoft have been web based not fat client for
many many years.

>>>  Apart from mobile apps the trend in user
>>> interfaces is HTML/CSS/JavaScript. And that is the case for an ever
>>> increasing number of mobile applications as well.
>>
>> The trend for native vs HTML 5 based mobile seems to change
>> every 3 months.
>
> I haven't gotten around to learning mobile coding because of the wide
> range of technology.  It really helps developers when platforms focus
> on one main language.  Do I learn HTML4, HTML5, CSS, Objective C,
> Swift, Android Java...?

Learning "HTML 5" which means HTML+CSS+JS (and a lot of socalled
HTML 5 actually is valid HTML 4) is a very useful. Period.
Desktop browser, mobile browser, some mobile app frameworks and even
some desktop app frameworks.

The common choices are:
* Java for Android
* Swift and Objective-C for iOS

But there are all sorts of more exotic alternatives.

You can use other JVM languages than for Android.

You can use Xamarin which is C# based for both Android and iOS.

Arne


0
UTF
12/7/2016 2:01:32 AM
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