f



CGI Question #2

Question:  What type permissions should be assigned to different types of 
CGI files and directories?

       A Perl language CGI Internet Bulletin Board program is being 
developed for use at one of my Web sites.  And I am attempting to determine 
how to structure the permissions on various files and directories so that 
the Perl program will run and read a password file without either the Perl 
program code or password file contents being visible to site visitors.

Any advice regarding that?

       The Perl program bulletin board program will be in a directory called 
"cgi"

       Also in that directory will be the password file that will have a 
..txt extension.

       The bulletin board .html file and the .html posts submitted to the 
bulletin board will be in a directory called "bbs"

       What permissions should the password and Perl language files have?

       For anyone interested, the Perl language program is being developed 
using the Xampp program that makes it possible for a PC to look like an 
Internet Server.  So, when you open a .html file and press the SUBMIT button 
the Xampp program will run the Perl CGI program as if it were on your real 
Internet Server.

       An older version of Xampp is being used.  I have so far been unable 
to get the newest version to run properly.

       The older version is simpler and runs quite well on both XP and Vista 
computers.  Using it makes program development easier and faster and 
probably keeps the Internet Server people happier because the CGI program 
can be thoroughly debugged before it gets stored and run on the real 
Internet Server.

0
edgrsprj (105)
12/29/2012 4:55:31 PM
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On Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:55:31 AM UTC-5, E.D.G. wrote:
> Question:  What type permissions should be assigned to different types of=
=20
> CGI files and directories?


Assuming that you use Apache and mod_perl, you can put all your CGI files i=
nto  (sub)directory and configure Apache to send all files in that (sub)dir=
ectory to the running Perl process. As long as your scripts run withut erro=
rs, you won't have a problem as far as outside visibility. Once upon a time=
, I had a problem with the browser rendering Perl scripts as text, but that=
 may have been because I either named the files with an extension other tha=
n'.cgi' or because I didn't have Apache configured properly, I really don't=
 remember, but that's something that you will test and if it happens to you=
 it can be corrected.

This isn't especially a matter of file permissions. If Apache can't read yo=
ur file, the you will get a permissions denied error and Apache won't serve=
 up your CGI content.

When I say 'outside visibility' I mean as an HTTP request via a web client,=
 some browser, over port 80. Obviously, anyone with console access to your =
server would be able to see all the files that were readable by him. For ex=
ample, I can telnet or ssh to my server and 'see' all my files. This is a d=
ifferent issue than accidently showing your Perl source in a browser.

CC.
0
cartercc (463)
12/29/2012 6:25:55 PM
"ccc31807" <cartercc@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:326771dc-4c82-4ae6-85f2-30208e1ef64d@googlegroups.com...

Thanks for the response and information.

       There are several things that you mentioned that did not occur to me. 
And I am going to give them a try.

       Another option that I learned about a while back is to put an 
index.html file in each subdirectory. And you can set the code in that file 
so that it redirects any subdirectory visitors back to the main .html file. 
Then they can't see the subdirectory contents.

       There are three octal numbers that are also associated with each 
subdirectory and file.  And I believe that there is a way to set them so 
that only the original program can access a password file etc.  I did not 
try to set those codes initially.  And I discovered that my practice 
password file could be read by anyone.

So much for passwords.

      Before posting that first note here I asked my Internet Server's 
technical support people how to set those permissions.  But they did not 
have an immediate answer.  That was a little surprising to me as they serve 
as host for a tremendously large number of domains.  And quite a few of 
their server users undoubtedly have CGI programs running on their Web sites.

0
edgrsprj (105)
12/29/2012 6:51:15 PM
On Saturday, December 29, 2012 1:51:15 PM UTC-5, E.D.G. wrote:
>        Another option that I learned about a while back is to put an>=20
> index.html file in each subdirectory. And you can set the code in that fi=
le =20
> so that it redirects any subdirectory visitors back to the main .html fil=
e.>=20
> Then they can't see the subdirectory contents.

I don't like that at all. If you use CGI, you shouldn't have any HTML files=
 -- all your HTML content should be generated by your CGI scripts. I invari=
ably use one directory for the HTML content (mostly ONE(!) HTML file,one or=
 more CSS files, and perhaps varil\ous JS files, and another directory for =
the CGI files. I sometimes have other diretories with JPED and GIF files, a=
nd so on. I do't like to mix content types in the same directory.

>        There are three octal numbers that are also associated with each =
=20
> subdirectory and file.  And I believe that there is a way to set them so=
=20

Use chmod to change file permissions.

>       Before posting that first note here I asked my Internet Server's =
=20
> technical support people how to set those permissions.  But they did not=
=20
> have an immediate answer.  That was a little surprising to me as they ser=
ve

I find this hard to believe. You should be able to chmod your own files.Rea=
d the man pages on chmod and umask. Also, read the Apache pages on CGi.

This can take a lot of effort to figure it out, but if you are persistent y=
ou should be able to reach proficiency after a while. You might want to sla=
p Linux on an old machine and use it as a test box I have a Pentium and a P=
entium Pro, one with only an 8G hard drive, that I run Linux, Apache, Perl,=
 and PostgreSQL on, and you can really learn a lot by setting it all up.

You can probably pick up an old machine for free, or at most $50.00. A KVM =
switch will cost you $50.00 tops. Get someone's old and slow machine, hook =
it up with a KVM switch, and learn all you can.

CC.
0
cartercc (463)
12/29/2012 8:10:51 PM
On 2012-12-29 20:10, ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 29, 2012 1:51:15 PM UTC-5, E.D.G. wrote:
>>        Another option that I learned about a while back is to put an> 
>> index.html file in each subdirectory. And you can set the code in that file  
>> so that it redirects any subdirectory visitors back to the main .html file.> 
>> Then they can't see the subdirectory contents.
>
> I don't like that at all. If you use CGI, you shouldn't have any HTML
> files -- all your HTML content should be generated by your CGI
> scripts.

Why?

	hp


-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Fluch der elektronischen Textverarbeitung:
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR       | Man feilt solange an seinen Text um, bis
| |   | hjp@hjp.at         | die Satzbestandteile des Satzes nicht mehr
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ | zusammenpa�t. -- Ralph Babel
0
hjp-usenet2 (464)
12/29/2012 9:47:36 PM
On Saturday, December 29, 2012 4:47:36 PM UTC-5, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
> > I don't like that at all. If you use CGI, you shouldn't have any HTML=
=20
> > files -- all your HTML content should be generated by your CGI=20
> > scripts.=20
>=20
> Why?

There are probably more than four approaches to creating HTML, but I'll onl=
y mention four.

First, you can write HTML by hand using a text editor (vim, Notepad, and ot=
hers). The advantage is that it gives you exact control over your code. The=
 disadvantages include the requirement of being fairly proficient at HTML, =
CSS, JavaScript, etc., and that you only get static pages.

As a sub-category, this is where i would put PHP, ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, and=
 similar. To me the key to these is that the author embeds scriptlets in hi=
s HTML code, the intention being to free the author from knowing anything a=
bout programming. To me, embedding scriptlets in HTML is pretty close to ha=
nd writing HTML in the first place, which is why I put it here.

Second, you can use something like Dreamweaver, or even (horrors!!!) Word, =
to create your pages. The advantage is that you don't need to know a lot ab=
out the languages. The disadvantages include giving up control over your co=
de and only creating static pages.

Third, you can use a CMS or templating system or a framework. I've never do=
ne this so I don't know the advantages or disadvantages.

Fourth, you can create your HTML pages dynamically, with Perl, Python, Ruby=
, Java, all the way up to using C, Common Lisp, or something else. The mind=
set of this is that the author (programmer) writes code that outputs HTML. =
You still need to know HTML and in addition you need to know a programming =
language. The great (overwhelming) advantage is that you have all the power=
 of the programming language at your disposal. The difference between this =
and the first three is the difference between building your products one pi=
ece at a time, and building a factory that can automate the building of you=
r products.

I started by writing HTML by hand. Then, I learned that you could use Perl =
to automate the tasks. I try my best to write in the functional style and w=
rite some pretty crude DSLs to help (e.g., a SQL.pm, an HTML.pm, a CONSOLE.=
pm, etc.) so my 'main' functions is just a series of function calls based o=
n the query parameters passed on in the HTTP request.

It's actually quite easy in that you can build a very large website with no=
t much code, and it turns out easy to maintain. This is how I imaging Amazo=
n, eBay, and others do it. They OBVIOUSLY don't have a large team of author=
s hand coding each individual page that any user could conceivably request.

In short, I like the idea of building a factory to spit out HTML rather tha=
n handcrafting each HTML page individually.

CC.

----------rough example-----------

#! perl
use warnings;
use strict;
use CGI;
use HTML; #custom pm

my @query_params =3D param('query_params');

print "Content-type: text/html\n\n";
HTML:print_header(@query_params);
HTML:print_menu(@query_params); #top nav bar
HTML;print_content(@query_params);
HTML:print_menu(@query_params); #bottom nav bar
HTML:print_footer(@query_params);

exit(0);
0
cartercc (463)
12/30/2012 4:43:58 AM
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:

    EDG> A Perl language CGI Internet Bulletin Board program is
    EDG> being developed for use at one of my Web sites. 

Given your history of difficulty with programming, if the goal is to
have a bulletin board, you will most likely produce better results with
less effort and with less outside support required if you install one of
the freely-available open-source bulletin boards.

Charlton


-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
12/30/2012 4:32:18 PM
>>>>> "cc" == ccc31807  <cartercc@gmail.com> writes:

    cc> There are probably more than four approaches to creating HTML,
    cc> but I'll only mention four.

2000 called: it wanted to point out that the important one you omitted
is using a web application framework with a solid templating system, so
that you put your logic in one place and your presentation in another.

Charlton


-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
12/30/2012 4:35:12 PM
On 29/12/12 21:10:51, ccc31807 wrote:
> This can take a lot of effort to figure it out, but if you are
> persistent you should be able to reach proficiency after a while.
> You might want to slap Linux on an old machine and use it as a test
> box I have a Pentium and a Pentium Pro, one with only an 8G hard
> drive, that I run Linux, Apache, Perl, and PostgreSQL on, and you
> can really learn a lot by setting it all up.

+1

> You can probably pick up an old machine for free, or at most $50.00.
> A KVM switch will cost you $50.00 tops. Get someone's old and slow
> machine, hook it up with a KVM switch, and learn all you can.

Don't bother with a KVM switch : you won't need it.  Use a keyboard and
a monitor from another machine while your installing Linux.  Once you
can access it via ssh, detach the keyboard and monitor, and do the rest
remotely.  That is, after all, what you're trying to teach yourself.


Hope this helps,

-- HansM
0
hansmu (230)
12/30/2012 9:46:19 PM
ccc31807 (for it is he) wrote:

> You can probably pick up an old machine for free, or at most $50.00. A KVM
> switch will cost you $50.00 tops. Get someone's old and slow machine,

Another way of achieving the same goal [especially the bit about the slow 
machine] would be to run a VM with LAMP on it as a guest. You can even 
download one that's ready-installed:

http://www.turnkeylinux.org/lampstack

-- 
 <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
 21:44:02 up 14 days, 16 min,  5 users,  load average: 0.63, 0.60, 0.65
 Qua illic est reprehendit, illic est a vindicatum

0
troffasky (45)
12/30/2012 9:46:38 PM
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message 
news:87txr333hp.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
> less effort and with less outside support required if you install one of
> the freely-available open-source bulletin boards.


Thanks for the response.

       The 1996 era WWWBoard Perl language bulletin board CGI program 
created by by Matt Wright is being used to develop this bulletin board.

       It is relatively simple to use and new features can be added to it 
fairly easily by someone who can do intermediate level Perl programming.

       Additionally, I have the Xampp program running on my PC with Windows. 
And that makes it possible to add features to the Perl language CGI program 
and test those additions to see if they produce the desired result before 
the program gets copied to the Internet Server.

       SeaMonkey is also being used to rapidly generate and alter simple 
HTML code pages.  Then additional specialized code can be easily added to 
those pages by hand.

      My Internet Server makes it easy to change the three octal digit 
numbers that control program and files access.  The Perl language CGI 
bulletin board program is already running quite nicely on my PC.  And I am 
in the process of trying to determine how to set all of the permission 
numbers of the password files etc. so that everything will work properly on 
the Internet Server computer.  That effort should be completed early this 
week.

       Professional programmers probably learn how set permissions like that 
and many other things during their training.  But people doing that on their 
own have to develop those skills by trial and error or ask other people.  It 
should actually be quite simple.  And once the process is understood the 
same set of parameters can be used again and again.

0
edgrsprj (105)
12/30/2012 10:27:18 PM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message 
news:zN6dneyLzP8dvULNnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> Question:  What type permissions should be assigned to different types of 
> CGI files and directories?

Thanks for all of the responses.

       If and when this specific matter gets settled I plan to try to post a 
note here stating what parameters were finally used.  That will probably 
take a week or so.

0
edgrsprj (105)
12/30/2012 10:37:15 PM
On Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:35:12 AM UTC-5, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
> 2000 called: it wanted to point out that the important one you omitted 
> is using a web application framework with a solid templating system, so 
> that you put your logic in one place and your presentation in another.

You must have missed this:
"Third, you can use a CMS or templating system or a framework. I've never done this so I don't know the advantages or disadvantages."

I tried, got frustrated because it did what I did not want and didn't do what I wanted, so I wrote my own.

CC
0
cartercc (463)
12/30/2012 11:05:27 PM
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:

    EDG>       The 1996 era WWWBoard Perl language bulletin board CGI
    EDG> program created by by Matt Wright is being used to develop this
    EDG> bulletin board.

You have chosen a software package that was an extremely poor choice in
1996, due to Matt Wright's level of incompetence or carelessness in
writing Perl, and which has not become a better choice in the
intervening years.

Perhaps I misspoke: you will produce better results with less effort and
with less outside support required if you install one of the decent
freely-available open-source bulletin boards that has seen ongoing
development in the past year.

Charlton


-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
12/31/2012 5:43:39 AM
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message 
news:87ip7i3hf8.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
> Perhaps I misspoke: you will produce better results with less effort and
> with less outside support required if you install one of the decent
> freely-available open-source bulletin boards that has seen ongoing
> development in the past year.

Again, thanks for the comment.

I fully agree that there are numerous sophisticated bulletin boards programs 
available.  But I wanted a Perl language bulletin board program to get 
started with that will work with the Xampp CGI program development program 
so that highly specialized features could be added.  And WWWBoard is a 
relatively simple Perl program.

I tried using Movable Type quite a while ago but could not get it to run 
with the Xampp program.  It probably does.  But there appeared to be too 
many adjustments that needed to be made.  So I went with much simpler 
WWWBoard program to get things started.  And even that required a fair 
amount of effort to get it run with Xampp.  But the effort was worth it.

0
edgrsprj (105)
12/31/2012 9:00:36 AM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message 
news:zN6dneyLzP8dvULNnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@earthlink.com...

Posted by E.D.G. on December 31, 2012

       This post is a continuation of a CGI programming discussion that I 
started on the Perl Newsgroup a few days ago.

       - The first part of this post has to do with Internet Server CGI 
programs that can create picture files such as PNG files.

       - The second part of this post is a somewhat philosophical computer 
programming discussion that is intended for the people who are developing 
the Perl and Gnuplot languages.

       At the moment I am using ActiveState Perl (both older and newer 
versions), an older version of Gnuplot, and Xampp on my Windows XP and Vista 
PCs.  And I can create and run Perl language CGI programs on my Internet 
Server.

        On my PC, Perl sends Gnuplot plot information through files, and 
command information through Windows pipes.  Those pipes don't appear to be 
very good for sharing large blocks of plotting data.  Things tend to get 
lost.  But they are great for sending relatively small numbers of commands 
to Gnuplot.

CGI PICTURE FILE QUESTIONS

       After preparing for this for quite a few years I am now finally 
starting to create Perl programs for use as CGI programs that will run at my 
Web sites.  The first one that should be running within a few days will be a 
relatively simple variation of Matt Wright's Perl language WWWBoard program. 
It was selected largely because I was able to get it to run with the Xampp 
computer program that makes it possible for a Windows PC to look like an 
Internet Server and respond when an html file SUBMIT button is pressed for 
example.

Question:  What graphics program will work with Perl on an Internet Server 
computer and allow Perl to draw picture files such as charts with a PNG 
extension and store them at the site?

       If Gnuplot will run on an Internet Server and work with Perl then 
that might take care of the matter.  However, after visiting some Web sites 
and doing some reading on the subject I was not able to determine if this is 
actually possible.

Question:  If Gnuplot can be used for Internet Server applications, then can 
anyone point to a Web site where a discussion of that subject can be found 
that would be understandable to an intermediate level programmer?

Question:  If Gnuplot is not recommended for use with Perl for Internet 
Server CGI file work, then what graphics program should be used?

       The following is an indirect URL for the type of picture file work 
that is planned.  And I am not sending people to that Freewebs site to get 
points.  Indirect addresses like that are being used in part in the hopes of 
keeping as much spam mail etc. as possible away from E-mail addresses listed 
on my actual science research Web sites.

http://www.freewebs.com/eq-forecasting/Demo-Program.html


PHILOSOPHICAL PROGRAMMING DISCUSSION FOR PERL AND GNUPLOT DEVELOPERS

      This first part of the following discussion is intended to be 
humorous, not some type of scientific fact.  It has been my experience that 
if that humor statement is not added, some people who might be speaking 
English as a second or third language could get confused.

       When the Great Rain finally ended and his Arc neared land, Noah 
assembled all of the Arc animals on the top deck and said to them,

"Evolve or Perish!"

       Unfortunately, the dinosaurs had been out partying the night before. 
They missed the lecture.  And now they can be found only in Natural History 
museums and paleontological digs.

       Some time ago ago I asked the ActiveState people if they would be 
interested in developing a version of Gnuplot that could be used as a 
downloadable module for Perl and enable Perl programs to use the 
sophisticated Gnuplot chart drawing resources.

       If I remember correctly, they stated that they would rather focus on 
developing chart creation resources for their downloadable version of 
Python.

       What I have recommended in my posts in the past is that some 
combination of Perl and Gnuplot language development personnel create a 
module version of Gnuplot that can be downloaded and used with Perl.  It is 
my understanding that they are both written using one of the C languages. 
So such a module development effort shouldn't be too difficult.  And Gnuplot 
commands in the Perl programs could begin with "gnu" as in "gnuprint" to 
keep them from conflicting with similar Perl commands.

       There are modules that make it possible for Perl programs to interact 
with Gnuplot.  But from what I have seen, data still need to be sent to 
Gnuplot through files or some type of "pipe."  And I am not sure if this 
would work on an Internet Server computer.

       Some of the advantages of having a Perl module version of Gnuplot 
might be the following:

       - This could greatly enhance Perl's chart drawing capabilities.

       - It could greatly enhance Gnuplot's array manipulation and perhaps 
its string manipulation capabilities.

       - Both Perl and Gnuplot would become more attractive to prospective 
users because of their increased power.  And they would both become less 
likely to eventually join the dinosaurs in some museum.

Happy Holiday Season to all,

E.D.G.

0
edgrsprj (105)
12/31/2012 12:47:30 PM
On 2012-12-30 04:43, ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 29, 2012 4:47:36 PM UTC-5, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>> > I don't like that at all. If you use CGI, you shouldn't have any HTML 
>> > files -- all your HTML content should be generated by your CGI 
>> > scripts. 
>> 
>> Why?
>
> There are probably more than four approaches to creating HTML, but I'll only mention four.
[...]
> In short, I like the idea of building a factory to spit out HTML
> rather than handcrafting each HTML page individually.

I don't think you answered the question: Why should all HTML content be
generated by CGI IF there is one CGI script on the site?

Suppose I have a website with 100 static HTML pages. Every now and then
I add a new static page. Now, for some reason, I want to add some
content which cannot be represented in a static page, so I add a CGI
script. Why should I convert my 100 static pages to CGI at this point? 

Or a more complex example: I have a web site with a few dozen GB of
static content, a Java-based CMS and web shop and a CGI based database
interface. Why should that not be allowed? What do I gain by putting the
static content behind a CGI script? Or, even worse, 

There are reasons why it may be useful to keep static content in a
different form (database, files in XML or Wiki syntax, ...) and generate
the final HTML on the fly (e.g. consistent layout, more flexible, reuse
of content, ...). But none of these has anything to with whether some
other content on the site is generated with CGI.

	hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Fluch der elektronischen Textverarbeitung:
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR       | Man feilt solange an seinen Text um, bis
| |   | hjp@hjp.at         | die Satzbestandteile des Satzes nicht mehr
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ | zusammenpa�t. -- Ralph Babel
0
hjp-usenet2 (464)
12/31/2012 1:56:38 PM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> "Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message
> news:87ip7i3hf8.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
>> Perhaps I misspoke: you will produce better results with less effort and
>> with less outside support required if you install one of the decent
>> freely-available open-source bulletin boards that has seen ongoing
>> development in the past year.
>
> Again, thanks for the comment.
>
> I fully agree that there are numerous sophisticated bulletin boards
> programs available.  But I wanted a Perl language bulletin board
> program to get started with that will work with the Xampp CGI program
> development program so that highly specialized features could be
> added.  And WWWBoard is a relatively simple Perl program.

After a (cursory) look at the code, I have to agree with Charton
Wilbur that I certainly wouldn't want to use this as base for any
development of my own and surely wouldn't recommend it to others. That
subroutines are consistently invoked as &name(a, b, c) can be regarded
as relatively harmless archaism, although including the & despite it
performs no useful function whatsoever is something I consider to be
poor style (basically, this is just white noise and makes the code
harder to read and understand because of that). A much more serious
problem is that this code doesn't declare any variables so the only
way to determine which variables are being used where is to read
through the code. It also rarely uses local which means that all
'script variables' are visible and modifiable from any
subroutine. Consequently, adding a new variable or changing the way an
existing one is used requires being aware of all of 'the global
context' to avoid using identifiers already used by other code or
using such identifiers in a way which conflicts with their use by
other code. Considering that this is really a 'tinygram' (461 LOC),
the statement 'The current release in 2.0 ALPHA 2.1, which means there
still are a few bugs.' is quite telling in this context: It implies
that the author has already lost this 'global understanding' and that
parts of the code already conflict with other parts of the code
because of that, a totally self-inflicted wound. Lastly, there's too
much "copy'n'paste" coding in there, as shown by statement blocks a la

print "<input type=hidden name=\"origsubject\" value=\"$FORM{'origsubject'}\">\n";
print "<input type=hidden name=\"origname\" value=\"$FORM{'origname'}\">\n";
print "<input type=hidden name=\"origemail\" value=\"$FORM{'origemail'}\">\n";
print "<input type=hidden name=\"origdate\" value=\"$FORM{'origdate'}\">\n";
print "<input type=hidden name=\"followup\" value=\"$FORM{'followup'}\">\n";

Code of this kind makes it extremly difficult to modify the created
HTML, except 'adding more of the same', and is also needlessly
complicated to understand. This (with no regard for other parts of the
script) should really rather be something like this (untested)

sub hidden
{
        return sprintf('<input type=hidden name="%s" value="%s">',
                       $_[0], $FORM{$_[0]});
}

print(hidden($_), "\n") for qw(origsubject origname origdate followup);
0
rweikusat (2830)
12/31/2012 1:57:04 PM
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:

    EDG> And WWWBoard is a relatively simple Perl program.

More to the point: it is badly written, riddled with security holes, and
has been disclaimed and abandoned by its original author.

You have made a decision that, on the spectrum between 'foolish' and
'idiotic', is far closer to the latter end.  It *will* come back to bite
you in the fundament, and it will probably bite several thousand other
people as well when your site is compromised and used as a spam and
malware relay host.

Charlton




-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
12/31/2012 4:08:01 PM
E.D.G. wrote:

> "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:zN6dneyLzP8dvULNnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> 
> Posted by E.D.G. on December 31, 2012
> 
>        This post is a continuation of a CGI programming discussion that I
> started on the Perl Newsgroup a few days ago.
> 
>        - The first part of this post has to do with Internet Server CGI
> programs that can create picture files such as PNG files.

I have been using cgi + gnuplot to produce analysis pages with embedded PNG
images for many years.  Perl works fine, though I've also used other 
languages for the same purpose.  I'm actually moving away from PNG, however,
since newer gnuplot versions allow you to embed mouseable plots using SVG
or the HTML5 canvas element.

You are welcome to have a look at one of my perl+gnuplot driven servers at
  http://www.bmsc.washington.edu/parvati/
It's a very field-specific application that I won't even try to explain here.
But it does show that you can create and display plots generated by uploading
data from a large file or via a pointer to data in an external public data base.
Hit the "Sample Output" icon, or use the accession code 3CHB to pull the input
data directly from the Protein Data Bank. The pre-cooked output uses PNG;
if you re-calculate you will get a mixture of SVG and PNG.

[snip]
> There are modules that make it possible for Perl programs to interact
> with Gnuplot.  But from what I have seen, data still need to be sent to
> Gnuplot through files or some type of "pipe."  And I am not sure if this
> would work on an Internet Server computer.

Of course it works.  Why wouldn't it?

As to using a tailored Perl module to interface to gnuplot, IMHO this is 
a worse option than just talking to gnuplot directly.  If you rely on 
someone else's Perl module then you are limiting yourself to the subset,
possible a small subset, of gnuplot capabilities that are supported by that
module.  I can pretty much guarantee that no such perl module will keep up
with all of the possible gnuplot options.  In contrast, it is trivially easy
to open a pipe from perl to gnuplot and send any gnuplot command you like.

On the other hand, you need to take care in sandboxing the script + data + 
support programs so that malicious or careless input to the web server does 
not corrupt anything beyond the requested plot output.  
That's a non-trivial requirement, and gnuplot may not be your
best choice from this perspective.  A tailored Perl module sitting in 
between might or might not ameliorate this concern.

	happy gnuplotting (and also Happy New Year)

		Ethan


> 
>        - The second part of this post is a somewhat philosophical computer
> programming discussion that is intended for the people who are developing
> the Perl and Gnuplot languages.
> 
>        At the moment I am using ActiveState Perl (both older and newer
> versions), an older version of Gnuplot, and Xampp on my Windows XP and
> Vista
> PCs.  And I can create and run Perl language CGI programs on my Internet
> Server.
> 
>         On my PC, Perl sends Gnuplot plot information through files, and
> command information through Windows pipes.  Those pipes don't appear to be
> very good for sharing large blocks of plotting data.  Things tend to get
> lost.  But they are great for sending relatively small numbers of commands
> to Gnuplot.
> 
> CGI PICTURE FILE QUESTIONS
> 
>        After preparing for this for quite a few years I am now finally
> starting to create Perl programs for use as CGI programs that will run at
> my
> Web sites.  The first one that should be running within a few days will be
> a relatively simple variation of Matt Wright's Perl language WWWBoard
> program. It was selected largely because I was able to get it to run with
> the Xampp computer program that makes it possible for a Windows PC to look
> like an Internet Server and respond when an html file SUBMIT button is
> pressed for example.
> 
> Question:  What graphics program will work with Perl on an Internet Server
> computer and allow Perl to draw picture files such as charts with a PNG
> extension and store them at the site?
> 
>        If Gnuplot will run on an Internet Server and work with Perl then
> that might take care of the matter.  However, after visiting some Web
> sites and doing some reading on the subject I was not able to determine if
> this is actually possible.
> 
> Question:  If Gnuplot can be used for Internet Server applications, then
> can anyone point to a Web site where a discussion of that subject can be
> found that would be understandable to an intermediate level programmer?
> 
> Question:  If Gnuplot is not recommended for use with Perl for Internet
> Server CGI file work, then what graphics program should be used?
> 
>        The following is an indirect URL for the type of picture file work
> that is planned.  And I am not sending people to that Freewebs site to get
> points.  Indirect addresses like that are being used in part in the hopes
> of keeping as much spam mail etc. as possible away from E-mail addresses
> listed on my actual science research Web sites.
> 
> http://www.freewebs.com/eq-forecasting/Demo-Program.html
> 
> 
> PHILOSOPHICAL PROGRAMMING DISCUSSION FOR PERL AND GNUPLOT DEVELOPERS
> 
>       This first part of the following discussion is intended to be
> humorous, not some type of scientific fact.  It has been my experience
> that if that humor statement is not added, some people who might be
> speaking English as a second or third language could get confused.
> 
>        When the Great Rain finally ended and his Arc neared land, Noah
> assembled all of the Arc animals on the top deck and said to them,
> 
> "Evolve or Perish!"
> 
>        Unfortunately, the dinosaurs had been out partying the night
>        before.
> They missed the lecture.  And now they can be found only in Natural
> History museums and paleontological digs.
> 
>        Some time ago ago I asked the ActiveState people if they would be
> interested in developing a version of Gnuplot that could be used as a
> downloadable module for Perl and enable Perl programs to use the
> sophisticated Gnuplot chart drawing resources.
> 
>        If I remember correctly, they stated that they would rather focus
>        on
> developing chart creation resources for their downloadable version of
> Python.
> 
>        What I have recommended in my posts in the past is that some
> combination of Perl and Gnuplot language development personnel create a
> module version of Gnuplot that can be downloaded and used with Perl.  It
> is my understanding that they are both written using one of the C
> languages.
> So such a module development effort shouldn't be too difficult.  And
> Gnuplot commands in the Perl programs could begin with "gnu" as in
> "gnuprint" to keep them from conflicting with similar Perl commands.
> 
>        There are modules that make it possible for Perl programs to
>        interact
> with Gnuplot.  But from what I have seen, data still need to be sent to
> Gnuplot through files or some type of "pipe."  And I am not sure if this
> would work on an Internet Server computer.
> 
>        Some of the advantages of having a Perl module version of Gnuplot
> might be the following:
> 
>        - This could greatly enhance Perl's chart drawing capabilities.
> 
>        - It could greatly enhance Gnuplot's array manipulation and perhaps
> its string manipulation capabilities.
> 
>        - Both Perl and Gnuplot would become more attractive to prospective
> users because of their increased power.  And they would both become less
> likely to eventually join the dinosaurs in some museum.
> 
> Happy Holiday Season to all,
> 
> E.D.G.

0
sfeam
12/31/2012 8:38:34 PM
This is a little OT here, but since you haven't had a good answer to
your question....


On 12/29/2012 9:55 AM, E.D.G. wrote:
> What permissions should the password and Perl language files have?

Perl script: 755. Password file: I believe 666 will work.

But more important than that...

> Also in that directory will be the password file that will have a
> .txt extension.

Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
root where it cannot be accessed via the internet. (The passwords are
encrypted, aren't they?)


0
sbryce (27)
12/31/2012 9:34:28 PM
"sfeam" <sfeam@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in message 
news:kbst4d$7kl$1@dont-email.me...

Posted by E.D.G. January 1, 2013

Thanks for the comments.  There is enough information there that it is going 
to take a while for me to review and understand it.

0
E
1/1/2013 3:16:05 PM
"Scott Bryce" <sbryce@scottbryce.com> wrote in message 
news:kbt0dl$pq3$1@dont-email.me...
>
> Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
> root where it cannot be accessed via the internet. (The passwords are
> encrypted, aren't they?)

Thanks for that recommendation.


0
edgrsprj (105)
1/1/2013 3:23:23 PM
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message 
news:87ehi62oim.fsf@new.chromatico.net...

There might be only a half dozen people posting notes to this bulletin 
board.  And I would expect that only a relatively small number of people 
will be reading the posts.  So, there should not be any major problems.  The 
goal here and the reason for using that particular bulletin board program is 
being discussed in one of my other posts.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/1/2013 3:44:02 PM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message 
news:zN6dneyLzP8dvULNnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@earthlink.com...

       These are a few comments regarding why the WWWBoard program is being 
used to get this communications effort started.  Computer programmers might 
not be aware that there is a particular type of problem that exists within 
the international scientific community.  These are all personal opinions.

       Something that most people appear to be unaware of is the fact that 
quite often, members of the international scientific community don't know 
how to exchange important information with one another in a timely manner. 
They know so little about computer programming and Internet applications 
that they don't know how to get bulletin boards running for example.  The 
result is that information has to be circulated by E-mail.  And that doesn't 
work too well.

       This particular effort is getting underway using that older bulletin 
board program to simply get something running that can bypass that 
communications roadblock in one relatively small area of science.  During 
the past year I have stated quite clearly to U.S. government officials that 
these communications problems exist within the international scientific 
community.  They are quite serious.  And governments need to make 
significant efforts to deal with those problems.  It has been my personal 
experience that government officials are quite often completely unaware of 
the existence of these communications problems.  At least now, some of them 
here in the U.S. are aware that this is the case.  Whether or not they will 
be able to, or if they will even attempt to solve these major communications 
problems remains to be seen.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/1/2013 4:20:50 PM
Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbryce.com> writes:
> This is a little OT here, but since you haven't had a good answer to
> your question....
>
>
> On 12/29/2012 9:55 AM, E.D.G. wrote:
>> What permissions should the password and Perl language files have?
>
> Perl script: 755. Password file: I believe 666 will work.

Unfortunately, this doesn't qualify as 'a good answer' since both
reading from and writing to the password file is allowed for everyone
....

[...]

>> Also in that directory will be the password file that will have a
>> .txt extension.
>
> Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
> root where it cannot be accessed via the internet. (The passwords are
> encrypted, aren't they?)

.... and encrypting them doesn't help. That's a design mistake dating
back to the original UNIX(*) authentication system: Someone who has
access to a file containing the encrypted passwords can grab it and
run an offline dictionary/ brute force attack against it using
whatever computing resources are available to him.

If the web server doesn't need to write to the password file, it
showned be owned by root, the group should be set to some group the
web server user is member of and the permissions should be 0640[*] (read
and write access for the owner, read access for he group, no access
for anyone else). If the code is supposed to update the password file,
the permissions should be 0660 (same as before, except that group
write access is also enabled). The reason for 'owned by root' is that
this restricts the web server to modifying the contents of the file
but not the associated meta-information (such as the permissions).

[*] Short and incomplete explanation of the numbers: 1 - execute
permission, 2 - write permission, 4 - read permission. Rightmost digit
- permissions for 'world', middle digit - group permissions, leftmost
digit - owner permissions (the leading 0 marks this as an octal [base
8] number).
0
rweikusat (2830)
1/1/2013 4:21:08 PM
On 1/1/2013 8:44 AM, E.D.G. wrote:
> "Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message
> news:87ehi62oim.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
>
> There might be only a half dozen people posting notes to this
> bulletin board.  And I would expect that only a relatively small
> number of people will be reading the posts.  So, there should not be
> any major problems.

They aren't the people who will be causing your problems.

0
sbryce (27)
1/1/2013 4:21:25 PM
"Rainer Weikusat" <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> wrote in message 
news:87k3rw98nf.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com...

       That will likely be enough information to get things started.  The 
password file is being stored manually on the Internet Server.  The CGI 
program will not need to write to it, only read it.  I basically just needed 
some information regarding how the directory structure and permission levels 
need to be organized.

       It is still somewhat surprising to me that the technical people 
associated with my Internet Server did not have that information readily 
available.  And I am planning to send them a note recommending that they 
prepare a report on this so that in the future they can pass the information 
along to people when they have that type of question.  It is not that 
complicated.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/1/2013 4:37:27 PM
On 1/1/2013 9:21 AM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbryce.com> writes:
>> This is a little OT here, but since you haven't had a good answer
>> to your question....
>>
>>
>> On 12/29/2012 9:55 AM, E.D.G. wrote:
>>> What permissions should the password and Perl language files
>>> have?
>>
>> Perl script: 755. Password file: I believe 666 will work.
>
> Unfortunately, this doesn't qualify as 'a good answer' since both
> reading from and writing to the password file is allowed for
> everyone


Thank you for the correction.

0
sbryce (27)
1/1/2013 4:40:44 PM
On 1/1/2013 9:37 AM, E.D.G. wrote:
> It is still somewhat surprising to me that the technical people
> associated with my Internet Server did not have that information
> readily available.

It is not their job to write your code for you.

0
sbryce (27)
1/1/2013 4:42:02 PM
On 2013-01-01 16:21, Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> wrote:
> Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbryce.com> writes:
>>> Also in that directory will be the password file that will have a
>>> .txt extension.
>>
>> Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
>> root where it cannot be accessed via the internet. (The passwords are
>> encrypted, aren't they?)
>
> ... and encrypting them doesn't help.

It actually helps rather a lot.

> That's a design mistake dating back to the original UNIX(*)
> authentication system: Someone who has access to a file containing the
> encrypted passwords can grab it and run an offline dictionary/ brute
> force attack against it using whatever computing resources are
> available to him.

And without "encryption" (nitpick: Passwords are usually hashed, not
encrypted) "someone who has access to a file containing the
cleartext passwords" has immediate access to the passwords without
having to run any further attacks. With a properly salted hash function
of sufficient length a brute force attack is infeasible and good
passwords should resist any dictionary attack.


> If the web server doesn't need to write to the password file, it
> showned be owned by root, the group should be set to some group the
> web server user is member of and the permissions should be 0640[*] (read
> and write access for the owner, read access for he group, no access
> for anyone else).

I would change "should be chowned by root" to "should be chowned to the
uid which is supposed to change the passwords". There is little reason
why this should be root.

Making the file readable by the web server of course means that the
web server and hence any attacker exploiting a flaw in the web server
can read the password file, which implies that storing cleartext passwords
there is not such a bright idea.

(If you are really serious about protecting your passwords, don't give
them to the webserver, but provide another service which the webserver
can use to check one logname/password combination at a time. If you are
really really serious, use something other than passwords: Public keys,
one time passwords, ...)

	hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Fluch der elektronischen Textverarbeitung:
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR       | Man feilt solange an seinen Text um, bis
| |   | hjp@hjp.at         | die Satzbestandteile des Satzes nicht mehr
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ | zusammenpa�t. -- Ralph Babel
0
hjp-usenet2 (464)
1/1/2013 8:31:45 PM
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:

    EDG> There might be only a half dozen people posting notes to this
    EDG> bulletin board.  And I would expect that only a relatively
    EDG> small number of people will be reading the posts.  So, there
    EDG> should not be any major problems.  

Some years ago I heard about this wonderful program called leafnode: an
NNTP proxy.  I was connected to the Internet by a permanent 56K line,
but had a 100BaseT Ethernet network behind it, so I thought it was
*awesome* - since there were several of us reading news, this would both
reduce and even out the network load from NNTP traffic.  And as only a
few people would be using it, there was little to no need for security.

Within two hours my network link was saturated, and a bit of
poking determined that it had been discovered and was in use by over 200
people for trading some rather unsavory pornography.

WITHIN TWO HOURS.

You are making a colossal mistake.  The people who pay for your mistake
will be your network admins, your system administrators, and every
person who is spammed or DDoS'd by the hackers who take over your box.

Charlton



-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
1/1/2013 9:23:55 PM
"Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at> writes:
> On 2013-01-01 16:21, Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> wrote:
>> Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbryce.com> writes:
>>>> Also in that directory will be the password file that will have a
>>>> .txt extension.
>>>
>>> Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
>>> root where it cannot be accessed via the internet. (The passwords are
>>> encrypted, aren't they?)
>>
>> ... and encrypting them doesn't help.
>
> It actually helps rather a lot.

As 'piece of mind' feature possibly (it also avoids the need to
repeatedly explain this).

Paraphrasing from Wikipedia:

,----
| In 1987 the author of the original Shadow Password Suite, Julie Haugh,
| experienced a computer break-in and wrote the initial release of the
| Shadow Suite containing the login, passwd and su commands. The
| original release, written for the SCO Xenix operating system, quickly
| got ported to other platforms.
| 
| [...]
| 
| Password shadowing first appeared in UNIX systems with the development
| of System V Release 3.2 in 1988 and BSD4.3 Reno in 1990.
`----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28file%29

NB: I already wrote a much longer reply, but I have no interested in
discussing anything with the author of the previous posting.
0
rweikusat (2830)
1/1/2013 9:24:36 PM
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
 
    EDG> Computer programmers might not be aware that there is
    EDG> a particular type of problem that exists within the
    EDG> international scientific community. 

And it's pretty clear that the "international scientific community"
needs to hire a few minimally competent sysadmins, because it's apparent
taht the "international scientific community" doesn't have the first
clue about network security.

    EDG> It has been my personal experience that government officials
    EDG> are quite often completely unaware of the existence of these
    EDG> communications problems.  At least now, some of them here in
    EDG> the U.S. are aware that this is the case.  Whether or not they
    EDG> will be able to, or if they will even attempt to solve these
    EDG> major communications problems remains to be seen.

This is because the communications problems are, in fact, nonexistent:
there are dozens of online blog and bulletin board services,
www.blogger.com, for one.  Also, any scientist affiliated with even a
small institution of higher learning will have system administrators and
interns who can set up servers if an actual dedicated server is
necessary (hint: it isn't); and if you need a separate bulletin board,
it is almost certainly for you to pay $25-$50 a month to a company that
knows what it's doing so that they can run it for you than for you,
with your demonstrated history of incomprehension and stubborn
resistance to correction, to attempt to run a software package that was
abandoned by its author as terrible and insecure nearly two decades ago.

You have an AB problem.  What you *need* to do is publish information.
What you are *trying* to do is configure WWWBoard.  The latter approach
is possibly one of the worst approaches to solving the problem you
actually have, and will create numerous other problems for you and (more
importantly) for others to clean up.

Charlton


-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
1/1/2013 9:30:19 PM
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message 
news:874nj038d0.fsf@new.chromatico.net...

> You are making a colossal mistake.

       I have already made extensive changes to the WWWBoard program version 
that I am planning to use.  And once it becomes operational it won't take 
long before the code is changed enough that it might be totally different 
from the original program.  One important security feature that was not in 
the original program has already been added.  And just to be safe I am 
planning to be add a second interesting security feature that I have never 
heard of anyone else using.

       The main reason for wanting to go with a program written totally 
using Perl is because it is so easy to modify.

       Additionally, versions of that original WWWBoard program along with 
modified versions have probably already been in use on the Internet for 
perhaps ten years or more.  And they have gotten extensive use.  I have been 
posting notes to one of them myself for probably that long and am still 
doing that.

PLAN B

       If all else fails, I intend to go back to PLAN B.  It worked in the 
past.

       This involves running the program on my PC and not the Internet 
Server.  Once every few days the postings that the program generates will 
simply be copied to my Web site as ordinary html files.  With the rather low 
number of expected postings that won't be a problem.

       Should that become necessary an effort will then get underway to 
locate a different bulletin board program.  At the moment I don't know of 
any that are written using Perl that will run with my PC based Xampp 
program.  I tried Movable Type a while back.  The version I had was supposed 
to be written in Perl.  But I could not get it to run with Xampp.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/2/2013 3:59:12 AM
"Scott Bryce" <sbryce@scottbryce.com> wrote in message 
news:kbv3lc$p41$2@dont-email.me...

> It is not their job to write your code for you.

The problem was that they could not explain how the file permissions need to 
be set for any CGI program or password file.

They probably only need to learn how to do that once.  And it can't see that 
it would require much time or effort for them.

In any case, it looks like the matter will have been possible to resolve 
through these Newsgroup discussions.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/2/2013 4:05:34 AM
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message 
news:87zk0s1thw.fsf@new.chromatico.net...

> And it's pretty clear that the "international scientific community"
> needs to hire a few minimally competent sysadmins, because it's apparent
> taht the "international scientific community" doesn't have the first
> clue about network security.

       I totally agree that this type of effort should be managed by 
professional computer programmers.  And the overall effort is in fact moving 
along at two different levels.

1.  There is this very basic effort that has been discussed here that I 
myself am attempting in part to see what is possible.

2.  I am attempting to convince governments and NGOs etc. that they need to 
get a formal effort organized that would make it possible for scientists 
around the world to do a better job of providing them with important 
technical information in a timely manner and also in a manner that they can 
understand the information.

       There are already a number of research groups and other resources 
such as Wikipedia.org on the Internet that are making it possible for 
scientists to compare notes with one another regarding various subjects. 
And they are probably helpful to some extent, especially Wikipedia.  But 
they cannot solve the specific problem that I am attempting to deal with 
here.  It has too many highly complex issues associated with it for those 
groups to deal with.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/2/2013 4:23:25 AM
"sfeam" <sfeam@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in message 
news:kbst4d$7kl$1@dont-email.me...

Posted by E.D.G.  January 1, 2013

Thanks again for the information.

       For the next few days most of my CGI work will involve getting a 
simple Perl bulletin board program organized and running on my Internet 
Server.  It is already running on my PC using Xampp.  Then I might start 
trying to see if I can get gnuplot to run with my Perl programs on the 
server.

       I looked at the Internet application you mentioned and have some very 
basic questions.  They are this basic because I have really only worked with 
Windows PCs, and one UNIX based system years ago am not yet familiar with 
what the Internet Server computers can and cannot do.

       Any answers for the following questions would be helpful.

       If this information is important then I can determine for certain if 
it is accurate.  But without checking on it I am guessing that my Internet 
Server is running what is called an Apache Server.  And the Operating System 
is some version of UNIX.

       The older version of gnuplot that I have been using on my Windows XP 
and Vista PCs is 4.4.  The only gnuplot programs actually being used are 
wgnuplot.exe and pgnuplot.exe.  They work fine for my applications.  And 
being so compact they fit nicely into my specialized computer program zip 
files that are being made available to other researchers around the world.

QUESTIONS:  If I want to use gnuplot with my Perl programs on the Internet 
Server, exactly how is that done?

---  Do I have to store a copy of some gnuplot.exe program on the Internet 
Server in the cgi-bin directory or somewhere else?
            Or would the Internet Server already have gnuplot running on it 
somewhere?

---  How to we get the Internet Server to run gnuplot if a command.gnu file 
is told to run?
          Would the Internet Server already recognize that extension?
          Or does there need to be a special gnuplot location line at the 
start of the command.gnu file as with Perl programs?

---  Are Perl to gnuplot pipes opened on an Internet Server using the same 
type of commands that are used with a Windows PC?

0
E
1/2/2013 5:21:34 AM
On 1/1/2013 9:05 PM, E.D.G. wrote:
> "Scott Bryce" <sbryce@scottbryce.com> wrote in message
> news:kbv3lc$p41$2@dont-email.me...
>
>> It is not their job to write your code for you.
>
> The problem was that they could not explain how the file permissions
>  need to be set for any CGI program or password file.

Right. Because these are not server configuration issues.

> In any case, it looks like the matter will have been possible to
> resolve through these Newsgroup discussions.

Or not. The questions you are asking are not really Perl questions.
Perhaps they should be asked in a more appropriate newsgroup.

0
sbryce (27)
1/2/2013 6:55:23 AM
"Scott Bryce" <sbryce@scottbryce.com> wrote in message 
news:kbt0dl$pq3$1@dont-email.me...

> Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
> root where it cannot be accessed via the internet.

Question:  If the directory where the Perl program is www/cgi-bin and the 
password.txt file is stored in a directory that is above that one, say it is 
named "passwords", what address would the Perl program use to open the 
password.txt file?

open file, '< ???/passwords.txt';

What would the ???/ be, root/ or something like that?

or

usr/local/password/

I tried a few names like that and couldn't get any of them to work.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/2/2013 7:55:34 AM
On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 07:55:34 UTC, "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> 
wrote:

> "Scott Bryce" <sbryce@scottbryce.com> wrote in message 
> news:kbt0dl$pq3$1@dont-email.me...
> 
> > Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
> > root where it cannot be accessed via the internet.
> 
> Question:  If the directory where the Perl program is www/cgi-bin and the 
> password.txt file is stored in a directory that is above that one, say it is 
> named "passwords", what address would the Perl program use to open the 
> password.txt file?
> 
> open file, '< ???/passwords.txt';
> 
> What would the ???/ be, root/ or something like that?
> 
> or
> 
> usr/local/password/
> 
> I tried a few names like that and couldn't get any of them to work.
> 

Ye gods!  - Been following this thread with growing disbelief. Go and 
learn about the unix file system, its permissions and structure.

Assuming:

www
	cgi-bin
	passwords

And you are in cgi-bin then ../passwords/passwords.txt

-- 
Regards
Dave Saville
0
dave7665 (138)
1/2/2013 10:12:49 AM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message 
news:gvGdnQLHp75GkX7NnZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@earthlink.com...

       This effort to create a new bulletin board has now been a success. 
So, thanks to one and all for the technical information.

       The effort did not take too long.  And I actually learned a lot more 
with this effort regarding how to get a CGI Perl program to do different 
things than I thought were possible.

       There is still one question that I would like to get the answer for 
regarding how to have the bulletin board Perl program access a password file 
that is not in the www/ public directory.  However, that information is not 
essential to this effort.  The Web site directory structure has been 
established.  And for now I will be using a password file that has its 
permission specifications set so that it the bulletin board program can read 
it.  But it is not readable by Web site visitors.

       The test programs are running fine.  Now I just need to get all of 
the Perl bulletin board program's internal addresses set and then store that 
actual program on the Internet Server.

CGI PERL WITH GRAPHICS

       After that bulletin board program is fully operational I would like 
to determine what type of graphics program can be used on an Internet Server 
in connection with Perl.  Gnuplot is being used on my PC.  And the Perl / 
Gnuplot combination works great.  It is fast enough that fairly good 
interactive work can be done.  Perl watches for key presses.  And when one 
is pressed such as an arrow key the Perl program tells Gnuplot to move 
things around on the display screen or to display a different screen.

       If I can determine what is involved with getting Gnuplot running with 
Perl on an Internet Server then that combination will probably be used. 
However, I doubt that it would be fast enough for interactive work.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/2/2013 10:33:59 AM
"Dave Saville" <dave@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:fV45K0OBJxbE-pn2-o3ok84FQdYDY@localhost...

> And you are in cgi-bin then ../passwords/passwords.txt

That was one of the first things that I tried.  It works on my PC with Xampp 
but not on my Internet Server.  However, I might have just not gotten the 
address in there correctly and will try it again.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/2/2013 10:37:05 AM
On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 10:37:05 UTC, "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> 
wrote:

> "Dave Saville" <dave@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:fV45K0OBJxbE-pn2-o3ok84FQdYDY@localhost...
> 
> > And you are in cgi-bin then ../passwords/passwords.txt
> 
> That was one of the first things that I tried.  It works on my PC with Xampp 
> but not on my Internet Server.  However, I might have just not gotten the 
> address in there correctly and will try it again.
> 

Is it possible that the server is stopping you essentially "CDing out 
of your assigned file system"? You do own www and have write 
permissions?
-- 
Regards
Dave Saville
0
dave7665 (138)
1/2/2013 10:47:11 AM
Scott Bryce (for it is he) wrote:

> The questions you are asking are not really Perl questions.
> Perhaps they should be asked in a more appropriate newsgroup.

But I [and several others] are enjoying this particularly amusing thread!

-- 
 <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
 11:07:17 up 16 days, 13:39,  5 users,  load average: 0.62, 0.67, 0.68
 Qua illic est reprehendit, illic est a vindicatum

0
troffasky (45)
1/2/2013 11:07:58 AM
On 02/01/13 11:07, alexd wrote:
> Scott Bryce (for it is he) wrote:
>
>> The questions you are asking are not really Perl questions.
>> Perhaps they should be asked in a more appropriate newsgroup.
>
> But I [and several others] are enjoying this particularly amusing thread!
>

Quite so.  My theory is that E.D.G. (don't you love those dots) is 
actually a highly sophisticated Turing-test bot.  Whoever has developed 
it is (by contrast to E.D.G. itself) a really top-class programmer.

-- 

Henry Law            Manchester, England
0
news192 (153)
1/2/2013 12:06:09 PM
"Dave Saville" <dave@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:fV45K0OBJxbE-pn2-Ur9f1BECjdgI@localhost...

> Is it possible that the server is stopping you essentially "CDing out
> of your assigned file system"? You do own www and have write
> permissions?

       There shouldn't be any problems with www ownership.  However, now 
that the test programs are running with the password file in a directory 
that does respond I am focusing on getting the actual bulletin board program 
operational.  That should be some time today.  And when it is working I plan 
to go back and try to determine why I was not able to access the password 
file copy in that higher level directory.  Since you believe that this 
should work I am going to guess that the reason is probably something 
simple.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/2/2013 3:25:01 PM
On 1/2/2013 8:25 AM, E.D.G. wrote:
> There shouldn't be any problems with www ownership.

OK, but the password file should be in a directory outside of the www
directory, not below it.

0
sbryce (27)
1/2/2013 3:40:42 PM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message 
news:AKmdnasLqqSQkHnNnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

       The technical discussions that I have been having with people in this 
Newsgroup have made for a fairly large number of posts.  But, I believe that 
professional Perl programmers should consider the possible benefits of this 
effort rather than get upset by all of the posts.

       It has been my experience that only a fairly small percentage of the 
people who have degrees in the physical sciences can do much by way of 
computer programming.  And I myself don't know any who can do any CGI 
programming work.

       I now have three highly unique and I feel important Perl language 
based computer programs running.  This latest one is that CGI Perl language 
bulletin board program that will be used, among other things, to circulate 
information to other scientists around the world regarding at least two of 
these programs.  And now that it is finally running there should be some 
rapid progress with program development.

       One of those Perl programs has been available to scientists and 
amateur researchers for several years as a free .exe format download.  And 
it is scheduled for an update one of these days to bring it current with the 
much more powerful version that is presently running on my PC.  That next 
update version should also have the ability to function as a central, 
interactive controlling hub for other language computer programs that can be 
used to interactively or automatically generate specialize types of data. 
It is already controlling compiled TrueBasic and Gnuplot programs.

       I have also been telling people that they can have the second 
program, the bulletin board technology and modifications for free use.

       My third unique Perl program is what might be called a virtual 
operating system program.  In my opinion it can make other operating systems 
such as Linux, Windows, and UNIX far more powerful and versatile.  I have 
never discussed it in any posts here.

       If scientists around the world start using these programs then they 
will likely want to customize them for their own particular applications and 
environments.  And they will probably not want to try to do any of the Perl 
programming themselves.  For simple modifications they might contact me. 
But it they want to make more extensive modifications they will likely bring 
in some experienced and perhaps professional Perl programmers.

       So, in addition to possibly increasing the popularity and usage of 
the Perl language, these efforts could conceivably result in some paid work 
for at least a few Perl programmers around the world.  It is my opinion that 
government agencies and their computer programmers should be using that 
first Perl language program that I have already made available as a 
download.  And with this new bulletin board to help advertise it, some of 
those agencies might start doing that.

       The programs could probably have been written in some other language 
such as Python.  In fact, that was actually recommended.  So, if these 
efforts do actually result in some professional Perl programmers around the 
world having a little more income sent in their direction, wouldn't a few 
posts in this Newsgroup be worth it?

These are personal opinions.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/2/2013 3:57:18 PM
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:

    EDG> "Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message
    EDG> news:874nj038d0.fsf@new.chromatico.net...

    >> You are making a colossal mistake.

    EDG>       I have already made extensive changes to the WWWBoard
    EDG> program version that I am planning to use.  

If you don't know enough to evaluate the original code and see that it
is riddled with flaws, you don't know enough to improve its security
when you modify it.

The cost of your mistake will be borne not by you but by hundreds of
other people who are spammed or who have to fend off cracking attemps by
people who have trivially cracked your box.  

Don't continue in this mistake. 

Charlton



-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
1/2/2013 4:18:18 PM
>>>>> "HL" == Henry Law <news@lawshouse.org> writes:

    HL> Quite so.  My theory is that E.D.G. (don't you love those dots)
    HL> is actually a highly sophisticated Turing-test bot. 

You say Turing; I say Dunning-Kruger.  I believe Mr Occam votes with me.

Charlton



-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
1/2/2013 4:21:29 PM
Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbryce.com> writes:
> On 1/2/2013 8:25 AM, E.D.G. wrote:
>> There shouldn't be any problems with www ownership.
>
> OK, but the password file should be in a directory outside of the www
> directory, not below it.

I'd like to second that strongly: Unless the server was specifically
configured to prohibit this, having the password file in the WWW tree
very likely means anybody who knows the name of this file get download
it by using a suitable URL, eg, https://your.server.org/passwords.txt.
(and if the OP isn't using HTTPS, he would be very good advised to
start doing so immediately --- nowadays, people access 'the internet'
from their laptops/ smartphones etc while using 'open' WiFi hotspots
in public locations and other people can and do exploit this to
collect authentication information sent in clear).
0
rweikusat (2830)
1/2/2013 4:31:23 PM
On 2013-01-01 21:24, Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> wrote:
> "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at> writes:
>> On 2013-01-01 16:21, Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> wrote:
>>> Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbryce.com> writes:
>>>>> Also in that directory will be the password file that will have a
>>>>> .txt extension.
>>>>
>>>> Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
>>>> root where it cannot be accessed via the internet. (The passwords are
>>>> encrypted, aren't they?)
>>>
>>> ... and encrypting them doesn't help.
>>
>> It actually helps rather a lot.
>
> As 'piece of mind' feature possibly

Neither "piece of mind" nor "peace of mind". It is a useful 2nd line of
defense after the attacker has gotten hold of the password file. Of
course it only helps those with reasonably complex passwords. "Rainer1"
won't delay an attacker for long.

> Paraphrasing from Wikipedia:
>
> ,----
>| Password shadowing first appeared in UNIX systems with the development
>| of System V Release 3.2 in 1988 and BSD4.3 Reno in 1990.
> `----

Old news. Not sure why you think you have to bring that up. Scott
already advised to make the password file non-public and I suggested (in
the part you snipped) a way to make the password file completely
unaccessable by the web server. But I still think passwords should not
be stored as plain text. 

	hp


-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Fluch der elektronischen Textverarbeitung:
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR       | Man feilt solange an seinen Text um, bis
| |   | hjp@hjp.at         | die Satzbestandteile des Satzes nicht mehr
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ | zusammenpa�t. -- Ralph Babel
0
hjp-usenet2 (464)
1/2/2013 10:45:40 PM
In article <yc6dnbjRtbupK37NnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, E.D.G.
<edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> "Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message 
> news:87zk0s1thw.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
> 
> > And it's pretty clear that the "international scientific community"
> > needs to hire a few minimally competent sysadmins, because it's apparent
> > taht the "international scientific community" doesn't have the first
> > clue about network security.
> 
>        I totally agree that this type of effort should be managed by 
> professional computer programmers.  And the overall effort is in fact moving 
> along at two different levels.
> 
> 1.  There is this very basic effort that has been discussed here that I 
> myself am attempting in part to see what is possible.
> 
> 2.  I am attempting to convince governments and NGOs etc. that they need to 
> get a formal effort organized that would make it possible for scientists 
> around the world to do a better job of providing them with important 
> technical information in a timely manner and also in a manner that they can 
> understand the information.
> 
>        There are already a number of research groups and other resources 
> such as Wikipedia.org on the Internet that are making it possible for 
> scientists to compare notes with one another regarding various subjects. 
> And they are probably helpful to some extent, especially Wikipedia.  But 
> they cannot solve the specific problem that I am attempting to deal with 
> here.  It has too many highly complex issues associated with it for those 
> groups to deal with.
> 

You might want to consider using a Perl script replacement for WWWBoard
that has been re-written with security in mind:

<http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/scripts.shtml>

I have no experience with either script.

-- 
Jim Gibson
0
jimsgibson (533)
1/2/2013 11:51:48 PM
"Jim Gibson" <jimsgibson@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:020120131551484805%jimsgibson@gmail.com...

> You might want to consider using a Perl script replacement for WWWBoard
> that has been re-written with security in mind:
>
> <http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/scripts.shtml>

Thanks for the comment.

That particular script appears to generate E-mail notes rather than bulletin 
board postings.  However I plan to ill take a closer look at it.  Even if it 
does only E-mail work, some of the code might be helpful.


0
edgrsprj (105)
1/3/2013 8:29:19 PM
"Rainer Weikusat" <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> wrote in message 
news:87zk0rwnqc.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com...

> (and if the OP isn't using HTTPS, he would be very good advised to
> start doing so immediately --- nowadays, people access 'the internet'

Thanks for the suggestion.  As I stated in another post, there might be only 
a half dozen researchers posting notes to the board. So, I don't think that 
their losing track of their passwords will be a problem.  But I am planning 
to do some checking on https anyway.  I do know how it works.  But I had not 
thought of using it for this application.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/3/2013 8:33:31 PM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> "Rainer Weikusat" <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> wrote in message
>> (and if the OP isn't using HTTPS, he would be very good advised to
>> start doing so immediately --- nowadays, people access 'the internet'
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.  As I stated in another post, there might
> be only a half dozen researchers posting notes to the board. So, I
> don't think that their losing track of their passwords will be a
> problem.

The problem is that _other people_ might be able to intercept the
traffic and thus, gain access to the passwords. This used to be
more-or-less a non-issue since shared-medium ethernets went out of
use, however, nowadays, it is again an issue because of a new kind of
'shared-medium ethernet' commonly known as WiFi. Especially since
so-called 'open wireless hotspots' provided as a convenience to
customers in public locations are not uncommon.
0
rweikusat (2830)
1/3/2013 8:44:20 PM
On 03/01/13 20:29, E.D.G. wrote:
> "Jim Gibson" <jimsgibson@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> You might want to consider using a Perl script replacement for WWWBoard
>> that has been re-written with security in mind:
>>
>> <http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/scripts.shtml>

> That particular script appears to generate E-mail notes rather than
> bulletin board postings.  However I plan to ill take a closer look at
> it.  Even if it does only E-mail work, some of the code might be helpful.

There are fifteen scripts on that page, one of which is WWWBoard, as Jim 
suggested.  It is a message board, which is what you want.

Do you have a clue?

-- 

Henry Law            Manchester, England
0
news192 (153)
1/3/2013 10:42:18 PM
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:

    EDG> As I stated in another post, there might be only a half dozen
    EDG> researchers posting notes to the board.

As I have pointed out repeatedly: it's not the half dozen people who are
authorized to use this software who are using it legitimately that you
have to worry about.  It's the several hundred thousand hackers,
crackers, script kiddies, and wannabe mafiosi who are going to find and
exploit the flaws in your code to make your computer do things you don't
want it to do.

There is a legitimate possibility that within 24 hours of you turning on
this service, that your computer will be compromised and used as a
kiddie porn distribution node.

If you weren't aware that that could happen, let alone knowing how to
prevent it or discover that it's going on and shut it down, you have no
business telling us what you think will or will not be a problem.

Charltobn


-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
1/3/2013 10:59:08 PM
On 02/01/13 15:57, E.D.G. wrote:
> "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:AKmdnasLqqSQkHnNnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
>        I now have three highly unique and I feel important Perl language
> based computer programs running.

Is this one of them? http://www.freewebz.com/eq-forecasting/302.zip

I didn't know that you could write FORTRAN in Perl.

-- 

Henry Law            Manchester, England
0
news192 (153)
1/3/2013 11:22:12 PM
Quoth Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>:
> 
> There is a legitimate possibility that within 24 hours of you turning on
> this service, that your computer will be compromised and used as a
> kiddie porn distribution node.
> 
> If you weren't aware that that could happen, let alone knowing how to
> prevent it or discover that it's going on and shut it down, you have no
> business telling us what you think will or will not be a problem.

s/telling.*/administering a computer system connected to the Internet./

Ben

0
ben6057 (1116)
1/5/2013 1:16:27 AM
"Scott Bryce" <sbryce@scottbryce.com> wrote in message 
news:kbt0dl$pq3$1@dont-email.me...

> Don't do that. Move the password file to a directory above the document
> root where it cannot be accessed via the internet.

       That does in fact work.  And I am planning to use that procedure.

       CGI programs on my server work a little differently than I expected. 
And until I discovered what was taking place I kept encountering problems 
with getting them to run.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/5/2013 7:06:21 PM
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message 
news:87vcbf1rud.fsf@new.chromatico.net...

> If you don't know enough to evaluate the original code and see that it
> is riddled with flaws, you don't know enough to improve its security
> when you modify it.

      I never had any intention of going with the original code.  I think 
that the changes that have already been made to the code and ones that I am 
planning to make will probably be adequate, at least for a start.

     You might be surprised by some of those security features.  I doubt 
that there are any existing bulletin board programs that include code like 
that.  For obvious reasons, I don't want to say too much about what those 
changes are.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/5/2013 7:16:49 PM
"Rainer Weikusat" <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> wrote in message 
news:8738yixahn.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com...

> 'shared-medium ethernet' commonly known as WiFi. Especially since
> so-called 'open wireless hotspots' provided as a convenience to
> customers in public locations are not uncommon.

       Thanks again.  I know about the public access WiFi problems.  And I 
am planning to look into HTTPS options.


0
edgrsprj (105)
1/5/2013 7:21:08 PM
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message 
news:87zk0pzxdv.fsf@new.chromatico.net...

> As I have pointed out repeatedly: it's not the half dozen people who are
> authorized to use this software who are using it legitimately that you
> have to worry about.  It's the several hundred thousand hackers,

       With humor intended, one thing that helps here is that most of my Web 
site work is highly technical and extremely boring.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/5/2013 7:26:13 PM
"Henry Law" <news@lawshouse.org> wrote in message 
news:J-qdnczdi5DXlHvNnZ2dnUVZ8t-dnZ2d@giganews.com...

> There are fifteen scripts on that page, one of which is WWWBoard, as Jim 
> suggested.  It is a message board, which is what you want.

      Thanks for the information.  I just looked at the top of the Web page 
and didn't look at the other sections in too much detail.  I am going to 
check that code to see if it will work for the application I am developing. 
So far I have just been getting all of the directory and file structures 
organized.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/5/2013 7:34:01 PM
"Henry Law" <news@lawshouse.org> wrote in message 
news:XM6dncWjFLg4j3vNnZ2dnUVZ7vOdnZ2d@giganews.com...

> I didn't know that you could write FORTRAN in Perl.

       That is a very early version of one of those programs.  All of the 
newer versions include elaborate Gnuplot control code.  That early version 
shows researchers how to do the basic calculations related to earthquake 
triggering process etc.  Even after a number of years, those equations are I 
believe still by far the most advanced that can be found anywhere.

       That effort got started with GW-Basic and at different times used 
TrueBasic, FreeBasic, and a variety of other programs including Gnuplot. 
Fortran was considered.  Perl was finally chosen in part because it is 
somewhat similar to Basic, is a freeware, supported language, and can be 
used for CGI work.  FreeBasic looked interesting.  But it does not appear to 
have much support.

     A decision still needs to be made on a graphics program that will run 
in connection with Perl on an Internet Server.  Some version of Gnuplot is 
supposed to work for that.  But at the moment I am not sure if that is the 
case.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/5/2013 7:58:25 PM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message 
news:S9qdnSfZ26C6HXXNnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> "Henry Law" <news@lawshouse.org> wrote in message

>> There are fifteen scripts on that page, one of which is WWWBoard, as Jim 
>> suggested.  It is a message board, which is what you want.

       I downloaded that board file and checked the code.  If I can get that 
program to run with Xampp then that code will probably be used instead of 
the earlier version of WWWboard.  I can add my own modifications to that 
version of the program.

       I wonder why that newer program did not include a password option 
with the bulletin board itself?  My own modifications add that feature.  I 
am also making a number of different types of data entry screens and 
probably display Web pages availailable.  Using Perl for everything makes 
that fairly easy to do.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/5/2013 8:18:41 PM
On 05/01/13 19:58, E.D.G. wrote:
>        That is a very early version of one of those programs.  All of
> the newer versions include elaborate Gnuplot control code.

Preserve us all, if the new code is anything like the old stuff.  It's 
totally unmaintainable, including by you after any significant time. 
And if it there's an error in your logic then good luck with finding the 
what's broken.

>        That effort got started with GW-Basic and at different times used
> TrueBasic, FreeBasic, and a variety of other programs including Gnuplot.

That stacks up; the program I read looked as if it was converted from 
some other language by someone who didn't speak either very well.  I 
thought the parent language looked like FORTRAN but if it was an early 
BASIC that fits too.

> Perl was finally chosen in part because it is
> somewhat similar to Basic,

Correct.  It can be written in an ASCII character set, it implements all 
the normal computing language constructs like number types, control 
loops and so on.  But aside from those similarities it's, er, completely 
different.

The problem you have is that you don't have a Perl program; you have a 
BASIC program expressed in the subset of Perl language which does the 
same things.  That's why it would be totally unmaintainable by a Perl 
programmer (without a vast and expensive initial familiarisation period, 
at least): she would get totally lost by the appalling structure and the 
astoundingly bad use of the language primitives.

And the idea that some of that code might run in a CGI environment, 
where security is important and debugging requires a different approach, 
fills me with horror.

>      A decision still needs to be made on a graphics program that will
> run in connection with Perl on an Internet Server.  Some version of
> Gnuplot is supposed to work for that.  But at the moment I am not sure
> if that is the case.

Look at Chart::Graph::Gnuplot (hint: don't ask here if you don't know 
how to do that).  It implements only a subset of Gnuplot, so you'll have 
to make sure that you can do what you want with what it provides.  But 
if you can then it can run server-side.  It will only produce its output 
as a graphic file which your CGI program will need to reference, but 
that's simply a matter of generating <img src="/the/created/image"> tags.

I'm going to give you some advice, but from what I've read on the net 
about people's opinions on your ability as an seismologist I fear you're 
unlikely to listen to it.

You're a complete amateur at Perl programming (as I think you were at 
other languages which you've played around with).  Nobody in Perl-land 
is going to take seriously anything you do, and people will rapidly tire 
of trying to help you, since you're beyond help.

If you're serious about these Perl programs of yours then you either 
need to start from the beginning, learn Perl properly, read some books 
not just on Perl /language/ but on /programming/ and /operating 
systems/.  Then you're going to need to learn how to learn, especially 
from other people.

Once you've done that then, and only then, can you hope to produce 
proper /systems/ (not just programs) which will support the work of 
these supposed "users" of yours, and also avoid further despoiling of 
the internet by means of spam issued from your systems.

-- 

Henry Law            Manchester, England
0
news192 (153)
1/5/2013 8:36:46 PM
Henry Law <news@lawshouse.org> wrote:
>On 05/01/13 19:58, E.D.G. wrote:
[...]
>If you're serious about these Perl programs of yours then you either 
>need to start from the beginning, learn Perl properly, read some books 
>not just on Perl /language/ but on /programming/ and /operating 
>systems/.  Then you're going to need to learn how to learn, especially 
>from other people.

This advise has been given to him many times by many different people
for a long, long time. Unfortunately as I can see from the replies that
quote him he is still too smart to heed it.

jue
0
jurgenex (484)
1/5/2013 10:28:58 PM
Henry Law <news@lawshouse.org> wrote:
>On 02/01/13 15:57, E.D.G. wrote:
>> "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:AKmdnasLqqSQkHnNnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>
>>        I now have three highly unique and I feel important Perl language
>> based computer programs running.
>
>Is this one of them? http://www.freewebz.com/eq-forecasting/302.zip
>I didn't know that you could write FORTRAN in Perl.

Looks very much like the output of some program generator or the
intermediate code of some compiler to me.
Are you saying someone actually wrote this manually line by line? Say it
ain't so.....

jue
0
jurgenex (484)
1/6/2013 12:25:25 AM
"Henry Law" <news@lawshouse.org> wrote in message 
news:J-qdnczdi5DXlHvNnZ2dnUVZ8t-dnZ2d@giganews.com...

> There are fifteen scripts on that page, one of which is WWWBoard, as Jim 
> suggested.  It is a message board, which is what you want.

       To my amazement, that newer bulletin board program worked with Xampp 
on first try.

       So, I will be adding the password code to that program along with 
some other modifications.  And that should take care of things.

       The newer version actually runs better.  I thought that a problem I 
had been encountering was with the Xampp program.  But the problem 
disappeared with the newer bulletin board program.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/6/2013 4:49:09 AM
"Henry Law" <news@lawshouse.org> wrote in message 
news:EJedneiLCPJDE3XNnZ2dnUVZ8j2dnZ2d@giganews.com...

> And if it there's an error in your logic then good luck with finding the 
> what's broken.

       I have been working with professional computer programmers for ages. 
And I have to keep telling them one thing that they simply don't seem to 
understand regarding science efforts.

       If there is an important problem that needs to get solved, what the 
scientists need are accurate data that can show them how to solve the 
problem.  Quite often, a computer program is needed in the loop to generate 
the data.  And it doesn't matter a bit how nice the program code look, as 
long as they generate the needed data.

       Regardless of how they look and run, my Perl programs generate data 
that are so unique that other scientists around the world who work as 
government science advisors consult with me regarding those data.  They have 
been discussed on TV and in Internet news reports.

       Once the scientists can see from the data that a particular approach 
to solving some problem works then if computer programs are involved they 
can bring in professional programmers who can convert the basic program 
concepts into high quality code.

      But that first step has to be to generate the original data any way 
you can.

       This bulletin board effort is needed at the moment because I can't 
continue to circulate all of these data by E-mail or in Web reports to so 
many people.  It is too inefficient and takes too long.  A specialized 
bulletin board is the only answer.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/6/2013 5:11:37 AM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> "Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message
> news:87zk0pzxdv.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
>
>> As I have pointed out repeatedly: it's not the half dozen people who are
>> authorized to use this software who are using it legitimately that you
>> have to worry about.  It's the several hundred thousand hackers,
>
>       With humor intended, one thing that helps here is that most of
> my Web site work is highly technical and extremely boring.

.... and the computer it runs on is 'highly technical and very
useful'. Especially if someone else pays the bills and has to deal
with the fallout.
0
rweikusat (2830)
1/6/2013 4:30:04 PM
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:

    >> As I have pointed out repeatedly: it's not the half dozen people
    >> who are authorized to use this software who are using it
    >> legitimately that you have to worry about.  It's the several
    >> hundred thousand hackers,

    EDG> With humor intended, one thing that helps here is that most of
    EDG> my Web site work is highly technical and extremely boring.

Yes, well, most of your websites are full-on crackpottery; but the
content is completely irrelevant.  The people most likely to exploit
your blisteringly obvious incompetence are not there for the content,
but for the flaws in your security.

Charlton


-- 
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
0
cwilbur2 (421)
1/6/2013 10:24:30 PM
On 2013-01-05, E.D.G. <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>        With humor intended, one thing that helps here is that most of my Web 
> site work is highly technical and extremely boring.

I think you should point your scientific collaborators to this thread,
so they can see what other Perl programmers think of your ability to
host their data safely.

--keith

-- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

0
1/6/2013 11:47:05 PM
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message 
news:nMSdnWHNycFIxXnNnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

Two topics are being discussed in this post.

1.  The WWWBoard program modification effort

2.  A proposed Internet computer based disaster mitigation program

THE WWWBOARD PROGRAM MODIFICATION EFFORT

       The more advanced version of the WWWBoard bulletin board program is 
running fairly well now on my PC using the Xampp program.  And a significant 
modifications effort is in progress.

       I would be surprised if anyone else were interested in that program. 
But if someone else is interested then they can try contacting me about the 
modifications being made to the program.

       There are quite a few minor modifications being made such as having 
the program show posting times using UTC instead of local time.  But there 
are two significant modifications that have been made.

A.  A password feature has been added.  And other security features have 
been or are being added.  However, these are not modifications to the 
original program   Instead they are built into other independent programs 
that link with the main WWWBoard program.

B.  The original program is structured so that a number of internal 
addresses have to be set before the program is uploaded to the Internet 
Server computer.  They tell it where to find the message directory and 
various files etc.  That structure is now somewhat different.

       If Xampp is used to make changes to the program then those addresses 
have to be set differently and changed before the program is uploaded to the 
Internet Server.  The way that I  now have the program structured, those 
addresses are set in a separate, small program that then calls the main 
program.  Separate versions of that small program can be stored on the 
Internet Server computer and the PC.  That then makes it possible to make 
modifications to the main program and copy the program intact to the 
Internet Server.  No addresses have to be reset.

A PROPOSED INTERNET COMPUTER BASED DISASTER MITIGATION PROGRAM

       Most of my free time is spent on efforts aimed at disaster 
mitigation, improving health conditions for people around the world, and 
getting world economies to work better.  In connection with one of those 
efforts, back in 2012 I sent a report to U.S. government officials 
recommending that the U.S. and other governments and NGOs such as the United 
Nations develop an Internet based disaster avoidance and response computer 
program that could in a few seconds generate detailed plans for what various 
organizations and civil defense workers needed to do in order to respond to 
major disasters such as earthquakes, tornados, and aircraft crashes.

       Such a program could provide even small communities with the types of 
sophisticated disaster response resources that can presently be found only 
in our largest cities.  The far more rapid and coordinated responses to 
various disasters would undoubtedly result in many lives being saved.  And 
since the program would largely involve the efforts of CGI computer 
programmers it would likely provide employment opportunities for quite a few 
professional programmers around the world.

       So far, U.S. officials have not made any effort to develop the 
program as far as I can tell.  But as other efforts such as this bulletin 
board effort get moving along I am planning to contact U.S. officials again 
about that proposed disaster mitigation program and probably meet with a few 
of them and discuss the subject.

       Part of that planned effort would involve posting notes to various 
computer programming Newsgroups letting people know about the effort.  I can't 
say when that will happen.  But is on my planning board.

       If anyone would like some information regarding that proposed 
Internet based disaster mitigation program they can try contacting me. 
There is a report available that discusses how the program would work.

0
edgrsprj (105)
1/7/2013 8:14:26 AM
On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 05:11:37 UTC, "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> 
wrote:

<snip>
> 
>        This bulletin board effort is needed at the moment because I can't 
> continue to circulate all of these data by E-mail or in Web reports to so 
> many people.  It is too inefficient and takes too long.  A specialized 
> bulletin board is the only answer.
> 

Mailing list? 

-- 
Regards
Dave Saville
0
dave7665 (138)
1/7/2013 9:46:50 AM
On Sat, 5 Jan 2013 19:16:49 UTC, "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> 
wrote:

<snip>
>      You might be surprised by some of those security features.  I doubt 
> that there are any existing bulletin board programs that include code like 
> that.  For obvious reasons, I don't want to say too much about what those 
> changes are.
> 

If you think you have devised some super security feature you almost 
cetainly have not.

-- 
Regards
Dave Saville
0
dave7665 (138)
1/7/2013 9:48:42 AM
On 2013-01-07, Dave Saville <dave@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 05:11:37 UTC, "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> 
> wrote:
>
><snip>
>> 
>>        This bulletin board effort is needed at the moment because I can't 
>> continue to circulate all of these data by E-mail or in Web reports to so 
>> many people.  It is too inefficient and takes too long.  A specialized 
>> bulletin board is the only answer.
>> 
>
> Mailing list? 

For once the OP might be correct.  If it's a significant amount of data,
sharing via mailing list would be unpleasant.

--keith

-- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

0
1/7/2013 3:35:26 PM
Reply:

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Florida Gov. Rick Scott was kicked off of MSNBC's "Morning Joe" on Thursday after he refused to directly answer a question about GOP frontrunner ...

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GOP front-runner's remarks on foreign policy have caused some consternation among experts – CBS News speaks to one of them

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CNN Maria Sharapova: The unanswered questions CNN (CNN) Maria Sharapova tested positive for a recently banned substance, meldonium, at January's ...

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