f



python-dev Summary for 2004-07-01 through 2004-07-15

python-dev Summary for 2004-07-01 through 2004-07-15
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from July 
01, 2004 through July 15, 2004.  It is intended to inform the wider 
Python community of on-going developments on the list.  To comment on 
anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email 
python-list@python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a 
subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members 
are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't 
hesitate to take a stance on something.  And if all of this really 
interests you then get involved and join `python-dev`_!

This is the forty-forth summary written by Brett Cannon (wished he could 
be at
OSCON to see Guido throw a pie).

To contact me, please send email to brett at python.org ; I do not have 
the time to keep up on comp.lang.python and thus do not always catch 
follow-ups posted there.

All summaries are archived at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/ .

Please note that this summary is written using reStructuredText_ which 
can be found at http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html .  Any unfamiliar 
punctuation is probably markup for reST_ (otherwise it is probably 
regular expression syntax or a typo =); you can safely ignore it, 
although I suggest learning reST; it's simple and is accepted for `PEP 
markup`_ and gives some perks for the HTML output.  Also, because of the 
wonders of programs that like to reformat text, I cannot guarantee you 
will be able to run the text version of this summary through Docutils_ 
as-is unless it is from the `original text file`_.

... _PEP Markup: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0012.html

The in-development version of the documentation for Python can be found at
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ and should be used when looking up any
documentation on new code; otherwise use the current documentation as 
found at
http://docs.python.org/ .  PEPs (Python Enhancement Proposals) are 
located at http://www.python.org/peps/ .  To view files in the Python 
CVS online, go to http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/ 
..  Reported bugs and suggested patches can be found at the SourceForge_ 
project page.

The `Python Software Foundation`_ is the non-profit organization that 
holds the intellectual property for Python.  It also tries to forward 
the development and use of Python.  But the PSF_ cannot do this without 
donations.  You can make a donation at 
http://python.org/psf/donations.html .  Every penny helps so even a 
small donation (you can donate through PayPal or by check) helps.

... _python-dev: http://www.python.org/dev/
... _SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470
... _python-dev mailing list: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
... _comp.lang.python: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=comp.lang.python
... _Docutils: http://docutils.sf.net/
... _reST:
... _reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html
... _PSF:
... _Python Software Foundation: http://python.org/psf/

... contents::

... _last summary: 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-07-01_2004-07-15.html
... _original text file: 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-07-01_2004-07-15.ht



Summary Announcements
=====================
I don't think my informal editors on python-dev often enough for their 
help.  In case you didn't know, I send a rough draft (read: first draft 
since I **hate** proof-reading) to python-dev before a summary out for 
general consumption to make sure I didn't totally get something wrong. 
Luckily I tend not to screw stuff up that badly and it ends up being 
little grammatical errors here and there.  But if it wasn't for them the 
summaries would not be the level of quality that they are (read: 
wouldn't seem like they are written by some grad student with impeccable 
grammar but instead as if they are written by some grad student with 
decent grammar =).  Anyway, I just felt like I should give a public 
thanks to everyone who has ever sent me a fix.

In case you didn't know, Python 2.4a1 was released in early July.  If 
you have not already please `download <http://www.python.org/2.4/>`__ it 
and run the `regression test suite 
<http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/lib/regrtest.html>`__.

And it looks like Unicode will finally work in the Summaries!  Thanks 
for that goes to David Goodger for making that happen.

Summaries
=========
------------------
2.4a1 out the door
------------------
Thanks to Anthony Baxter, `Python 2.4a1`_ went out the door in early 
July.  If you have not downloaded it and run the regression test suite, 
please do (see the stdlib docs on the 'test' pacakge on how to run the 
tests and please check if you can that any failures you got were not 
already posted and possibly fixed in CVS).

... _Python 2.4a1: http://www.python.org/2.4/

Contributing threads:
   - `2.4a1 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/045944.html>`__
   - `RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 1 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046013.html>`__

--------------------------------
MSI installer on Windows for 2.4
--------------------------------
Some discussion on Martin v. Löwis' MSI installer code took place on the 
list.  It seemed like Martin's installer was good and just needed some docs.

Contributing threads:
   - `VC 7.1 maintenance? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/045815.html>`__
   - `Windows installer for 2.4? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/045954.html>`__

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decimal is in the stdlib with defaults for people who don't have a "bot" 
nickname
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the Decimal package went in at the beginning of July, most of the 
discussions about Decimal revolved around making it easy to use out of 
the box for normal folk; "practicality beats purity".

First discussion was over invalid constructor arguments.  Originally if 
you tried something like ``Decimal("Raymond")``, it would return NaN. 
Obviously that ain't cool.  Turned out to be a misinterpretation of the 
IBM spec that Decimal is based on.  In the doc an exception being 
"signaled" is the same as it being raised in Python.  So that got 
clarified and now raises an exception.

 From there a discussion of what signals should be on by default ensued. 
  Michael Chermside sparked it with his list of what he thought would 
work.  Some other people posted theirs and all of them coagulated into a 
final list.  Those defaults have been added to CVS and will be available 
in 2.4a2 .

Contributing threads:
   - `decimal API 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/045859.html>`__
   - `decimal.py signals & traps 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/045963.html>`__

---------------------------------------------------------
The second Python Bug Day stomped out some of the buggers
---------------------------------------------------------
AM Kuchling organized another Python Bug Day on July 10.  A couple of 
people, including yours truly, showed up on #python-dev and managed to 
close a bunch of patches and bugs; 18 and 15 of them to be exact. 
Thanks to all that helped out, it was fun.

The next one is tentatively scheduled for August 7th.

Contributing threads:
   - `Python Bug day this Saturday 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/045901.html>`__
   - `Bug day outcome 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046065.html>`__

----------------------------------
file()?  open()?  Paper?  Plastic?
----------------------------------
Guido had noticed someone had committed a patch that changed open() to 
file().  While some of us thought that using the file type's factory 
constructor was the proper way to open files, Guido set us straight. 
Turns out he wants open() to be used for opening files.  Part of the 
reason is that open() might at some point develop the abilities to open 
other things such as URLs (think ``open`` on OS X).

Contributing threads:
   - `file() or open()? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/045921.html>`__

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens when you try to enter a new key in a dict that has another 
key considered equal?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Chermside wondered the same thing.  Tim Peters answered.  Turns 
out to be undefined, but currently implemented as to keep the original 
key and not the new key.

Contributing threads:
   - `Equal but different keys in dicts 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046040.html>`__

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New macro that decrefs and sets to NULL a value, all while spinning 
plates on sticks!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Fulton added a new macro named Py_CLEAR() that takes in a variable, 
Py_DECREFs it, and then sets it to NULL.  The common use case is a field 
in a struct that can hold a PyObject but not always which is set to NULL 
when it doesn't.  It is in no way meant to signify the PyObject should 
be garbage collected immediately, just that the current variable no 
longer holds a reference to anything.

Contributing threads:
   - `Proposal: C API Macro to decref and set to NULL 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046086.html>`__

--------------------------------------
Trying out tagged integers in the core
--------------------------------------
Result: can be faster, but people don't want the added complexity (and 
Guido had a bad experience while developing the ABC language).

For those of you who don't know what tagged integers are, imagine all 
PyObjects being either an object or integer based on whether certain 
bits were flipped.  This has the perk of saving space and not having to 
do a memory fetch to get to the int value in an int object.  Problem is 
you now have to check constantly whether a PyObject is really a pointer 
or a tagged integer.

Contributing threads:
   - `Tagged integers 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046139.html>`__

------------------------------------------------------
You are not getting proper tail recursion optimization
------------------------------------------------------
If you know what proper tail recursion is, skip this paragraph.  Still 
there? OK, on with the lesson.  Proper tail recursion is when a 
recursive call is made in which the callee does not need to return to 
the caller.  Think of a 'return' statement that makes a recursive 
function call only; you don't *have* to return through the call chain 
since you just want that return statement to get to the first point 
where you are going to perform calculations on it.  So if you have a 
recursive 'return' statement you can skip creating a bunch of frames 
that stick around by just having each subsequent tail recursive call 
just return to the beginning of the recursion.  Confused yet?  Use 
Scheme and you will know what I am talking about (this stuff is actually 
*required* by the Scheme specification).  I could explain it using 
continuations, but chances are more people know about tail recursion 
than continuations so I am not even go to bother melting your brains 
with continuations.  =)

A patch to add proper tail recursion optimization was proposed, but 
Guido shot it down very strongly.  Guido has spoken and is not about to 
change his mind.  If you want to read the **long** thread on why then go 
ahead.  Basically, though, Guido said that if you are writing recursive 
code that is hitting the recursion limit you should probably change your 
algorithm.  There was also issues with how to handle tracebacks but that 
wasn't as entertaining.  =)

Contributing threads:
   - `Proper tail recursion 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046150.html>`__
0
Brett
7/29/2004 12:17:30 AM
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[The HTML version of this Summary is available at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2005-07-01_2005-07-15.html] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Announcements =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ QOTF (Quotes of the Fortnight) ------------------------------ Marc-Andre Lemburg provides perhaps the best summary to date of `how strings and Unicode should be used`_ in Python: To untie this Gordian Knot, we should use strings and Unicode like they are supposed to be used (in the context of text data): * strings are fine for text data that is encoded using the default encod= ing * Unicode should be used for all text data that is not or cannot be encoded in the default encoding Later on in Py3k, all text data should be stored in Unicode and all binary data in some new binary type. On a more entertaining note, Anthony Baxter describes the general outlook outlook on handling `threads vs signals`_: threads vs signals is a platform-dependant trail of misery, despair, horror and madness ... _how strings and Unicode should be used: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-July/054854.html ... _threads vs signals: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-July/054832.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Summaries =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --------------------------------------- PEP 343 Documentation: Context Managers --------------------------------------- Raymo...

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python-dev Summary for 2004-06-01 through 2004-06-15 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from June 01, 2004 through June 15, 2004. It is intended to inform the wider Python community of on-going developments on the list. To comment on anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email python-list@python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don'...

python-dev Summary for 2006-07-01 through 2006-07-15
python-dev Summary for 2006-07-01 through 2006-07-15 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ... contents:: [The HTML version of this Summary is available at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2006-07-01_2006-07-15] ============= Announcements ============= ------------------- Python 2.5 schedule ------------------- Python continues to make progress towards Python 2.5 final. See `PEP 356`_ for more details and the full schedule. ... _PEP 356: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0356/ Contributing threads: - `TRUNK FREEZE for 2.5b2, tomorrow Tuesday 11th, 00:00 UTC <http...

python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from August 01, 2004 through August 15, 2004. It is intended to inform the wider Python community of on-going developments on the list. To comment on anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email python-list@python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don&...

RE: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
Anthony Baxter wrote: > On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:50:48 -0700, Brett Cannon=20 > <bac@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote: > > At this point people should be hashing out which syntax=20 > alternative they > > want to present to Guido on comp.lang.python_. No more talking on > > python-dev, no more syntax proposals. The community should=20 > set a goal > > date (Sept. 1 seems good) and just choose a bloody alternative. =20 >=20 > One point I mentioned to Brett, but that he forgot to update (bad > summariser! no cookie for you!) is that Sept 1 is way, way, w...

RE: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15 #2
Brett C. wrote: > I just don't want people to suddenly get the impression that they can > always just throw a little mutiny every time Guido makes a decision.=20 > Do that and he will just ignore what people want period and never even > give people a chance to propose an alternative once it reaches > python-dev. Well said. > And I want people to realize my tirade was just that, a personal > tirade. It was out of frustration and thus should be taken with a > grain of salt. But that frustration is grounded in reality. > And that frustration came from the feeli...

python-dev Summary for 2004-04-01 through 2004-04-30
python-dev Summary for 2004-04-01 through 2004-04-30 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from April 01, 2004 through April 30, 2004. It is intended to inform the wider Python community of on-going developments on the list. To comment on anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email python-list@python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don...

python-dev Summary for 2003-07-01 through 2003-07-31
python-dev Summary for 2003-07-01 through 2003-07-31 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from July=20 1, 2003 through July 31, 2003. It is intended to inform the wider=20 Python community of on-going developments on the list. To comment on=20 anything mentioned here, just post to python-list@python.org or=20 `comp.lang.python`_ with a subject line mentioning what you are=20 discussing. All python-dev members are interested in seeing ideas=20 discussed by the community, so don't hesitate to take a stance on=20 something. And if all of this really interests you then get involved=20 and join `python-dev`_! This is the twenty-first/twenty-second summary written by Brett Cannon=20 (who is still learning how to count; gave the wrong summary count last=20 month). All summaries are archived at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/ . Please note that this summary is written using reStructuredText_ which=20 can be found at http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html . Any unfamiliar=20 punctuation is probably markup for reST_ (otherwise it is probably=20 regular expression syntax or a typo =3D); you can safely ignore it,=20 although I suggest learning reST; its simple and is accepted for `PEP=20 markup`_ and gives some perks for the HTML output. Also, because of the=20 wonders of programs that like to reformat text, I cannot guarantee you=20 will be able to run the text version of this...

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