I'm a newcomer to python:

[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553

-

I've download (as suggested) the python 2.4 installer for windows.

Now I have problems to compile python extension that some packages 
depend on.

I use the MinGW open-source compiler.

-

My questions:

a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary 
version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?

b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python 
source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?

c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the python 
source code base?

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

above link found in this thread:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/c9f0444c467de525

d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be able 
to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions with 
MinGW"?

http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/Notes.html

e) Is there any official statement available regarding the msvcr71.dll 
and other MS licensing issues?

[see several threads "[Python-Dev] Is msvcr71.dll re-redistributable?"]

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-February/thread.html

f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales 
available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported, although 
parts of the community obviously like to use it?

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dc3474e6c8053336

-

I just want to understand.

Thankfull for any pointer to official documents / statements.

[google is _not_ a fried here. I like to have a stable development 
environment, which is supported by the official projects, thus it can 
pass quality-assurance without beeing afraid about every next release.]

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary 
> version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?

I use a binary version of Python compiled with an open-source compiler
on Windows that was provided by someone else.

> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python 
> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?

Why should they? It already runs on Windows with a freely available
compiler.

> f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales 
> available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported, although 
> parts of the community obviously like to use it?

Not to my knowledge. But I would guess because supporting it would
obviously be a lot of work and the core developers have other things to
do they consider more important. They are volunteers, you know.

Why don't you solve this problem and produce a patched version of
Python that does what you want.

> [google is _not_ a fried here. I like to have a stable development 
> environment, which is supported by the official projects, thus it can 
> pass quality-assurance without beeing afraid about every next release.]

Then you have several options:

a) use a supported development environment
b) do the work yourself to support MinGW
c) pay someone else to do the work

But don't act like the volunteers who develop Python owe you a version
of Python that runs out of the box on MinGW. They don't, anymore than you
owe *me* a version of Python that runs out of the box on MinGW.

Now why haven't *you* produced a version of Python that is directly
compileable with MinGW? Time's a-wasting.
-- 
Michael Hoffman

Hello Ilias,

> d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be able 
> to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions with 
> MinGW"?
Writing a setup.py and running 
    python setup.py build_ext --compiler=mingw32
works for me *without* any more work. Things can't get much simpler.

Bye.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka@zoran.com>
http://tebeka.bizhat.com
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> I'm a newcomer to python:
>
> [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553
>
> -
>
> I've download (as suggested) the python 2.4 installer for windows.
>
> Now I have problems to compile python extension that some packages
> depend on.
>
> I use the MinGW open-source compiler.
>
> -
>
> My questions:
>
> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary
> version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?
>

It's not necessary.

> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python
> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?
>

Are you sure it isn't ?

> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the
python
> source code base?
>
> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
>
> above link found in this thread:
>
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/c9f0444c467de525
>
> d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be
able
> to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions with

> MinGW"?
>
> http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/Notes.html
>

Not very difficult. The mingw compiler *is* supported through
distutils. distutils can straightforwardly be configured to build
extensions with mingw. The relevent lib files need converting, which is
also simple.

I did it for Python 2.3. For Python 2.4 I use the free MS optimimizing
compiler. That does need a bit of hacking into distutils, but gain -
not very difficult.

Regards,

Fuzzy
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml

> e) Is there any official statement available regarding the
msvcr71.dll
> and other MS licensing issues?
>
> [see several threads "[Python-Dev] Is msvcr71.dll
re-redistributable?"]
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-February/thread.html
>
> f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales

> available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported,
although
> parts of the community obviously like to use it?
>
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dc3474e6c8053336
>
> -
>
> I just want to understand.
>
> Thankfull for any pointer to official documents / statements.
>
> [google is _not_ a fried here. I like to have a stable development
> environment, which is supported by the official projects, thus it can

> pass quality-assurance without beeing afraid about every next
release.]
> 
> .
> 
> -- 
> http://lazaridis.com

Michael Hoffman wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary
>>  version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?
> 
> I use a binary version of Python compiled with an open-source
> compiler on Windows that was provided by someone else.

Can you please point me (and the readers) to this resource?

>> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python 
>> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?
> 
> Why should they? It already runs on Windows with a freely available 
> compiler.

Obvious: Courtesy [against the userbase needs]

Obvious: Consistency [same code-base across different compiler]

>> f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements /
>> rationales available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is
>> unsupported, although parts of the community obviously like to use
>> it?
> 
> Not to my knowledge.
[...] - (guess & comments)

thank you.

> Why don't you solve this problem and produce a patched version of 
> Python that does what you want.

I'm not intrested in patching.

I'm intrested in a stable environment, supported by the original
implementors.

I need a solid fundament for my development.

>> [google is _not_ a fried here. I like to have a stable development
>>  environment, which is supported by the official projects, thus it
>> can pass quality-assurance without beeing afraid about every next
>> release.]
> 
> Then you have several options:
> 
> a) use a supported development environment

Requirement: "full open-source tool-chain".

> b) do the work yourself to support MinGW

this would be not neccessary, as others do this work already.

My question (that you've ommited) was: why does the python foundation 
not include this efforts?

[REQUOTE]
>> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the
>> python source code base?
>> 
>> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
>> 
>> above link found in this thread:
>> 
>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/c9f0444c467de525
>> 
[/REQUOTE]

> c) pay someone else to do the work
> 
> But don't act like the volunteers who develop Python owe you a
> version of Python that runs out of the box on MinGW. They don't,
> anymore than you owe *me* a version of Python that runs out of the
> box on MinGW.

I think Python is a serious Open Source System, driven by the Python 
Foundation.

Serious Open Source Systems should serve the basic needs of their 
community, especially if there are many depending systems.

If it is a programming language, the requirement "using an open-source 
toolchain" is a rational and valid one.

The Python Foundation ingores this requirement, this way creating a
chain of neccessary manual uncontrolled actions.

This does not increase my trust in python [e.g. as an exchange for JAVA].

> Now why haven't *you* produced a version of Python that is directly 
> compileable with MinGW? Time's a-wasting.

I have stated already that I am a newcomer to python.

[you should really avoid this tenor. Python is not an open-source
project of a few teenies. It's a serious programming-language, which 
could be adopted by e.g. more phone-manufacturers (after Nokia)]

-

The Python Foundation could create an official sub-project to create an 
automated build target based on the MinGW toolchain. I am sure that many 
community members would be more than happy to contribute.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

[please check your news-client. For some reason, the tag "[EVALUATION]" 
was removed]

-

You answer essentially something like "It's not necessary" cause "with a 
little hacking it works".

I've found lots of documents, which describe how to "hack around" to 
make it work.

I don't want to do "hacking".

I want to develope large scale applications, and for this I need an 
stable official version of the python language, either binary or 
produced directly out of official sources, completely with an 
open-source tool-chain.

That's the reason for my very specific questions, which you have mostly 
ignored.

-

copied from another answer:

"The Python Foundation could create an official sub-project to create an 
automated build target based on the MinGW toolchain. I am sure that many 
community members would be more than happy to contribute."

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[snip..]
> >> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python
> >> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?
> >
> > Why should they? It already runs on Windows with a freely available

> > compiler.
>
> Obvious: Courtesy [against the userbase needs]
>
> Obvious: Consistency [same code-base across different compiler]
>

Are you aware that the MSVC compiler they use produces tighter code
than gcc ? [1] *Most* users would rather have a faster python than a
python built with an open source compiler.

Particularly as distutils (read Python) can *easily* be configured to
use mingw to build extensions from source - which seems to be your real
requirement.

Regards,

Fuzzy
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shmtl



[snip..]
> --
> http://lazaridis.com

[1] Not knocking gcc - it's just optimsied for portability rather than
speed. If you want to see *a* benchmark, there is a link to one in my
'upgrading python' article. (In the article section at
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shmtl )

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Michael Hoffman wrote:
> 
> Can you please point me (and the readers) to this resource?

http://www.cygwin.com/

>> Why don't you solve this problem and produce a patched version of 
>> Python that does what you want.
> 
> I'm not intrested in patching.
> 
> I'm intrested in a stable environment, supported by the original
> implementors.

And the core developers are not interested in doing more than what they
have already done without further help (e.g. from you). Surely you can
"not interested" as you have justified your own inaction through it.

> This does not increase my trust in python [e.g. as an exchange for JAVA].

You cannot run all Java programs on an open source compiler, so I guess
it's an imperfect world for you. And to get GCJ to run on MinGW you have to
add a lot of patches.

>> Now why haven't *you* produced a version of Python that is directly 
>> compileable with MinGW? Time's a-wasting.
> 
> I have stated already that I am a newcomer to python.
> 
> [you should really avoid this tenor.

And you should avoid yours. Your sense of entitlement is palpable.

 > Python is not an open-source project of a few teenies. It's a serious
 > programming-language, which could be adopted by e.g. more
 > phone-manufacturers (after Nokia)]

The idea that MinGW support would affect that is laughable.
-- 
Michael Hoffman

Miki Tebeka wrote:
> Hello Ilias,
> 
>>d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be able 
>>to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions with 
>>MinGW"?
> 
> Writing a setup.py and running 
>     python setup.py build_ext --compiler=mingw32
> works for me *without* any more work. Things can't get much simpler.

looks really simple.

-

but:

the central problem still exists:

"** For a Python which was built with Cygwin, all should work without 
any of these following steps. **"
source:
http://www.python.org/doc/2.2.3/inst/non-ms-compilers.html#SECTION000312000000000000000

-

"the problem is that Python binary distributions for MS Windows do not 
include import libraries for popular gcc based tools: cygwin and mingw32"
source: http://www.zope.org/Members/als/tips/win32_mingw_modules

-

the solutions is possibly (copied from another answer):

"The Python Foundation could create an official sub-project to create an 
automated build target based on the MinGW toolchain. I am sure that many 
community members would be more than happy to contribute."

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> "The Python Foundation could create an official sub-project to create an 
> automated build target based on the MinGW toolchain. I am sure that many 
> community members would be more than happy to contribute."

An "official sub-project" for something like this is not necessary. Identify
what needs to be done and create a patch, and it will be accepted if it is
a good patch.
-- 
Michael Hoffman

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> I'm a newcomer to python:
> 
> [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553
> 
> -
> 
> I've download (as suggested) the python 2.4 installer for windows.
> 
> Now I have problems to compile python extension that some packages 
> depend on.
> 
> I use the MinGW open-source compiler.
> 
> -
> 
> My questions:
> 
> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary 
> version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?
> 
> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python 
> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?
> 
> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the python 
> source code base?
> 
> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
> 
> above link found in this thread:
> 
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/c9f0444c467de525
> 
> d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be able 
> to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions with 
> MinGW"?
> 
> http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/Notes.html
> 
> e) Is there any official statement available regarding the msvcr71.dll 
> and other MS licensing issues?
> 
> [see several threads "[Python-Dev] Is msvcr71.dll re-redistributable?"]
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-February/thread.html
> 
> f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales 
> available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported, although 
> parts of the community obviously like to use it?
> 
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dc3474e6c8053336
> 
> -
> 
> I just want to understand.
> 
> Thankfull for any pointer to official documents / statements.
> 
> [google is _not_ a fried here. I like to have a stable development 
> environment, which is supported by the official projects, thus it can 
> pass quality-assurance without beeing afraid about every next release.]


Just to add to all the other answers:

Don't just complain, submit patches and work at keeping them maintained. 
If this is done for a while it may be more of an argument for having 
them included

David

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> [please check your news-client. For some reason, the tag "[EVALUATION]"
> was removed]
> 
> I want to develope large scale applications, and for this I need an
> stable official version of the python language, either binary or
> produced directly out of official sources, completely with an
> open-source tool-chain.

Where does that requirement come from? If you want to create large scale
apps, the price for a msvc++ compiler shouldn't matter. And: Windows is a
non-free platform at first. If you have to or want to develop on top of it,
be prepared to pay. Its as simple as that. If you want something cheaper -
you'll have to put some effort into it. Or use linux.

Additionally, your point is moot because there is no need for python _core_
developers or the foundation to support every imaginable platform/compiler
combination. Instead this can be done by companies - see activestate. So if
you want it, step up and do it yourself so your work _becomes_ the official
mingw port. Community gratitude would be guaranteed.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

Fuzzyman wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> [snip..]
> 
>>>>b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python
>>>>source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?
>>>
>>>Why should they? It already runs on Windows with a freely available
>>>compiler.
>>
>>Obvious: Courtesy [against the userbase needs]
>>
>>Obvious: Consistency [same code-base across different compiler]
> 
> Are you aware that the MSVC compiler they use produces tighter code
> than gcc ? [1] *Most* users would rather have a faster python than a
> python built with an open source compiler.
> Particularly as distutils (read Python) can *easily* be configured to
> use mingw to build extensions from source - which seems to be your real
> requirement.

This is not relevant.

The Python Foundation should just ensure, that the source-code-base is 
compilable with MinGW on windows, too.

This is a very natural requirement.

There is really no need to 'fight' against this.

There is just a need to cooperate to achieve this.

[...]
> [1] Not knocking gcc - it's just optimsied for portability rather than
> speed. If you want to see *a* benchmark, there is a link to one in my
> 'upgrading python' article. (In the article section at
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shmtl )

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> I want to develope large scale applications, and for this I need an
>>  stable official version of the python language, either binary or 
>> produced directly out of official sources, completely with an 
>> open-source tool-chain.
> 
> Where does that requirement come from? If you want to create large
> scale apps, the price for a msvc++ compiler shouldn't matter. And:
> Windows is a non-free platform at first. If you have to or want to
> develop on top of it, be prepared to pay. Its as simple as that. If
> you want something cheaper - you'll have to put some effort into it.
> Or use linux.

I will not go into this 'twisting' games.

the requirement "Use of an open-source tool-chain" is nothing special.

> Additionally, your point is moot because there is no need for python
> _core_ developers or the foundation to support every imaginable
> platform/compiler combination.

MinGW is not "every imaginable platform/compliler".

> Instead this can be done by companies - see activestate. So if you
> want it, step up and do it yourself so your work _becomes_ the
> official mingw port. Community gratitude would be guaranteed.

I'm not intrested in creating an distribution.

I provide an analysis of the situation, context: newcomer, disapointed 
from JAVA.

One of my questions is:

[REQUOTE]
>> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the
>> python source code base?
>> 
>> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
[/REQUOTE]

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

David Fraser wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
> Just to add to all the other answers:
> 
> Don't just complain, submit patches and work at keeping them maintained. 
> If this is done for a while it may be more of an argument for having 
> them included

I do not "just complain".

I've spend already hours with writing down the questionaire [which you 
have successfully ignored].

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Michael Hoffman wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> "The Python Foundation could create an official sub-project to create 
>> an automated build target based on the MinGW toolchain. I am sure that 
>> many community members would be more than happy to contribute."
> 
> An "official sub-project" for something like this is not necessary. 

It is.

I hope the officials from the Python Foundation detect that:

  * source code should be _directly_ compilable under major compilers.
  * community efforts for such a important functionality should be
    channelized and organized

> Identify
> what needs to be done and create a patch, and it will be accepted if it is
> a good patch.

[REQUOTE]
 >> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the
 >> python source code base?
 >>
 >> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
[/REQUOTE]

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> David Fraser wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Just to add to all the other answers:
>>
>> Don't just complain, submit patches and work at keeping them 
>> maintained. If this is done for a while it may be more of an argument 
>> for having them included
> 
> 
> I do not "just complain".
> 
> I've spend already hours with writing down the questionaire [which you 
> have successfully ignored].

Why don't you spend hours writing code and submitting working patches, 
instead? That's what I did years ago in the original effort to get mingw 
to compile Python extensions (one of the, woefully out-dated, web-pages 
you cite is mine. I have now edited it to clarify the situation so 
others do not come away from it as you did).

Just writing "questionnaires" *is* actually "just complaining."

The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet 
volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."

If this is important to you, you need to step up yourself and get it 
done and not expect other people to volunteer their unpaid time to 
satisfy your whims.

The open source Python community is driven by volunteerism, not a sense 
of entitlement. If this does not appeal to you, then perhaps the Python 
community is not the right one for you.

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter

Michael Hoffman wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> Michael Hoffman wrote:
>>
>> Can you please point me (and the readers) to this resource?
> 
> http://www.cygwin.com/

thank you.

as far as I know, the created executables are bounded to the GPL.

Thus this is not intresting to me.

>>> Why don't you solve this problem and produce a patched version of 
>>> Python that does what you want.
>>
>> I'm not intrested in patching.
>>
>> I'm intrested in a stable environment, supported by the original
>> implementors.
> 
> And the core developers [...]

please let them speak for themselves.

>> This does not increase my trust in python [e.g. as an exchange for JAVA].
> 
> You cannot run all Java programs on an open source compiler, so I guess
> it's an imperfect world for you. And to get GCJ to run on MinGW you have to
> add a lot of patches.

Python is from its nature open-source.

The requirement "open-source-tool-chain" fits naturally.

>>> Now why haven't *you* produced a version of Python that is directly 
>>> compileable with MinGW? Time's a-wasting.
>>
>> I have stated already that I am a newcomer to python.
>>
>> [you should really avoid this tenor.
> 
> And you should avoid yours. Your sense of entitlement is palpable.

Entitlements result out of reason.

I'm just pointing out.

I've stated simple questions [which are still unanswered]

And I've stated rationales.

>> Python is not an open-source project of a few teenies. It's a serious
>> programming-language, which could be adopted by e.g. more
>> phone-manufacturers (after Nokia)]
> 
> The idea that MinGW support would affect that is laughable.

The idea that the Python Foundation cares about user needs would affect 
that.

The idea that the Python Foundation manages to serve (out of one 
source-code-base) many platforms/compilers with binaries, due to an 
automated, community-supported build system.

This would affect that.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> [REQUOTE]

Oh, I can play that game too:

 >> [REQUOTE]
 >> Identify what needs to be done and create a patch, and it will be
 >> accepted if it is a good patch.

MinGW patches have been accepted before. Start submitting yours. As
you point out, there is stuff on the web that means you will escape the
bulk of the work. But not all of the work.

Since you are intent on whining rather than doing the work I'm
ignoring this thread now. Good luck.
-- 
Michael Hoffman

Robert Kern wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> David Fraser wrote:
>>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
>>I do not "just complain".
>>
>> I've spend already hours with writing down the questionaire [which you 
>> have successfully ignored].
> 
> Why don't you spend hours writing code and submitting working patches, 
> instead? That's what I did years ago in the original effort to get mingw 
> to compile Python extensions (one of the, woefully out-dated, web-pages 
> you cite is mine. I have now edited it to clarify the situation so 
> others do not come away from it as you did).

"This page is extremely out-of-date. Not much applies anymore. This page 
only remains because too many people still point to it. PExports may 
also still be useful to some people; I don't know. I do not use this 
platform any longer."
http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/Notes.html

very gentle.

up-to-date information is important, especially to avoid confusing 
newcomers.

[you see: even if I just complain, one positive change has already happen]

> Just writing "questionnaires" *is* actually "just complaining."

of course not.

> The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet 
> volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."

this answer do not fit in most questions.

please review them again.

> If this is important to you, you need to step up yourself and get it 
> done and not expect other people to volunteer their unpaid time to 
> satisfy your whims.
> 
> The open source Python community is driven by volunteerism, not a sense 
> of entitlement. If this does not appeal to you, then perhaps the Python 
> community is not the right one for you.

I ask some questions and suggest some things.

Voluntarlily and without beeing paid.

There are many commercial systems around python.

So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.

-

If you like to help me and other newcomers, please give me simple some 
answers on the initial questions.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

>> Where does that requirement come from? If you want to create large
>> scale apps, the price for a msvc++ compiler shouldn't matter. And:
>> Windows is a non-free platform at first. If you have to or want to
>> develop on top of it, be prepared to pay. Its as simple as that. If
>> you want something cheaper - you'll have to put some effort into it.
>> Or use linux.
> 
> I will not go into this 'twisting' games.

Because it renders your point moot?

> the requirement "Use of an open-source tool-chain" is nothing special.

There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin. 

> MinGW is not "every imaginable platform/compliler".

Certainly not - but its one more dependency on an otherwise perfectly
working platform. Now why should there be any need to introduce this
dependency, if not a wide communitity desire is behind it - which seems not
to be the case. And recently, MS released a free version of its compiler.
I'm not sure if that's working for python - but if not, I think it would be
the more important thing to support on _windows_.

> I'm not intrested in creating an distribution.

Obviously nobody else is. 

> 
> I provide an analysis of the situation, context: newcomer, disapointed
> from JAVA.

That doesn't belong here. You don't get points for not liking java. And
beside that: I don't like it too, but if I have to use it because my
requirements analysis shows that it is the tool for the job - I use it.
Hopefully with jython somewhere. 

So if you find that missing mingw support renders python useless for you,
don't use it. But that would only be the case if you _actually_ create an
extension - something  I personally haven't the need for. And I developed
quite large python apps.

>>> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the
>>> python source code base?
>>> 
>>> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

Ask the author of the patch. We can't read minds here.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

Ilias Lazaridis wrote

> The idea that the Python Foundation cares about user needs would affect that.

please let the users speak for themselves.

</F> 

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Robert Kern wrote:

[snip]

>> The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet 
>> volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."
> 
> 
> this answer do not fit in most questions.
 >
> please review them again.

Against my better judgement, I have.

It certainly fits a, b, and c. It also fits d if you place an implicit 
"Yes, " in front of the answer. 4/6. I stick with my assessment.

>> If this is important to you, you need to step up yourself and get it 
>> done and not expect other people to volunteer their unpaid time to 
>> satisfy your whims.
>>
>> The open source Python community is driven by volunteerism, not a 
>> sense of entitlement. If this does not appeal to you, then perhaps the 
>> Python community is not the right one for you.
> 
> 
> I ask some questions and suggest some things.
> 
> Voluntarlily and without beeing paid.

Questions and suggestions are don't count for much in this community. 
Code and well-written patches do.

Stop wasting time on c.l.py and get to work! If you can't do that, then 
this is not the community you are looking for.

> There are many commercial systems around python.

And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted full-time to 
developing Python. Not even Guido. Most of core-Python development 
happens in people's spare, unpaid time.

Volunteerism is the core of this community. Trust me.

> So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.

No. You are asking others to volunteer their time, or perhaps, 
alternately, the PSF and other businesses to volunteer their money to 
fund people's time to satisfy *your* wants. I am asking you to volunteer 
*your* time to satisfy *your* wants, or alternately, stop writing 
questionnaires and bothering us.

Note that this reaction is pretty specific to you and not to other 
newcomers. Most newcomers do not carry around a sense of entitlement 
that could flatten a small village. Thus, they are treated with respect 
and helpfulness. We would appreciate it if you would emulate these 
people. On a purely pragmatic note, you have to admit that they are 
getting much better help than you are.

> If you like to help me and other newcomers, please give me simple some 
> answers on the initial questions.

I did provide some answers. Please review them again.

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter

Michael Hoffman wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> [REQUOTE]
> Oh, I can play that game too:
> 
>>> [REQUOTE]
>>> Identify what needs to be done and create a patch, and it will be
>>> accepted if it is a good patch.

"
c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the python 
source code base?

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
"

> MinGW patches have been accepted before. 

ok

I extract the answer to c)

"MinGW pathces have been accepted before, thus the efforts should be 
simply sent in form of patches to the python crew, which will most 
possibly accept them, as they are neccessary to compile python under the 
popular MinGW compiler"

> Start submitting yours. 

I don't have

> As
> you point out, there is stuff on the web that means you will escape the
> bulk of the work. But not all of the work.

If the Python Foundation detects the importancy, _every_ user will 
escape the 'bulk of the work', as it should be for a serious development.

There is no need that everyone runs in the same traps, due to some 
missing organization in the core-project.

> Since you are intent on whining rather than doing the work I'm
> ignoring this thread now. Good luck.

Thank you for your answers and your time.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
 > this answer do not fit in most questions.
 >
 > please review them again.

Actually, it does. Please review them again.

> My questions:
 >
> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?

Because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the job 
done.

> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?

Because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the job 
done.

> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the python source code base?

Because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the job 
done.

> d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be able to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions with MinGW"?

Yes, because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the 
job done.

> f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported, although parts of the community obviously like to use it? 

The most likely response you will get is: Because no one has yet 
volunteered their time and effort to get the job done.

> I ask some questions and suggest some things.
> 
> Voluntarlily and without beeing paid.

What a martyr you are.

> There are many commercial systems around python.
> 
> So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.

If the support you're looking for is beneficial to your commercial 
application a.k.a. business, then why aren't you making it happen? 
Obviously the existing commercial development teams are doing fine 
without it, otherwise it would exist. Even then, a commercial developer 
providing their development work to enhance the standard Python 
distribution IS volunteering.

--
Brian Beck
Adventurer of the First Order

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote
> 
>>The idea that the Python Foundation cares about user needs would affect that.
> 
> please let the users speak for themselves.

I have.

I've review several threads,publications, actions etc., that show that 
the users have this need.

please review the initial thread with care, i've pointed to some 
documents/thread.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Hello,

there is a thread in comp.lang.python, and a poster suggested that I ask
you directly.

possibly you can answer the question c), at least from your side.

Did you ever try to submit the patches to the main-source-code base of 
python?

Thank you for your pyMinGW work and your time.

-

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> I'm a newcomer to python:
> 
> [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps? 
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553
> 
> 
> -
> 
> I've download (as suggested) the python 2.4 installer for windows.
> 
> Now I have problems to compile python extension that some packages 
> depend on.
> 
> I use the MinGW open-source compiler.
> 
> -
> 
> My questions:
> 
> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary 
> version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?
> 
> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python 
> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?
> 
> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the
> python source code base?
> 
> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
> 
> above link found in this thread:
> 
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/c9f0444c467de525
> 
> 
> d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be
> able to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions
> with MinGW"?
> 
> http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/Notes.html
> 
> e) Is there any official statement available regarding the
> msvcr71.dll and other MS licensing issues?
> 
> [see several threads "[Python-Dev] Is msvcr71.dll
> re-redistributable?"]
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-February/thread.html
> 
> 
> f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales
>  available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported,
> although parts of the community obviously like to use it?
> 
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dc3474e6c8053336
> 
> 
> -
> 
> I just want to understand.
> 
> Thankfull for any pointer to official documents / statements.
> 
> [google is _not_ a fried here. I like to have a stable development 
> environment, which is supported by the official projects, thus it can
>  pass quality-assurance without beeing afraid about every next
> release.]

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>>>Where does that requirement come from? If you want to create large
>>>scale apps, the price for a msvc++ compiler shouldn't matter. And:
>>>Windows is a non-free platform at first. If you have to or want to
>>>develop on top of it, be prepared to pay. Its as simple as that. If
>>>you want something cheaper - you'll have to put some effort into it.
>>>Or use linux.
>>
>>I will not go into this 'twisting' games.
> 
> Because it renders your point moot?

no, my requirement renders your 'twisting' 'moot'.

see next line.

>>the requirement "Use of an open-source tool-chain" is nothing special.
> 
> There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin. 

this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed

[or am I wrong?]

additionally: i like to use MinGW.

>>MinGW is not "every imaginable platform/compliler".
> 
> Certainly not - but its one more dependency on an otherwise perfectly
[...] - (twisting)

again twisting.

I have a simple requirement.

please do not ignore it.

>>I'm not intrested in creating an distribution.
> 
> Obviously nobody else is. 

Including the Python Foundation.

>>I provide an analysis of the situation, context: newcomer, disapointed
>>from JAVA.
> 
> That doesn't belong here. You don't get points for not liking java.
[...] - (off topic)

[Python Foundation/Community can use this, to attract more users.
The analysis is not the main topic here.]

An essential requirement is the topic.

>>>>c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the
>>>>python source code base?
>>>>
>>>>http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
> 
> Ask the author of the patch. We can't read minds here.

you are right, this can clarify at least the one side.

I've contacted him, see my post in the root of this thread.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Brian Beck wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> this answer do not fit in most questions.
>> 
>> please review them again.
> 
> Actually, it does. Please review them again.
> 
>> My questions:
>> 
>> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary
>>  version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?
> 
> Because no one has yet volunteered their time and effort to get the
> job done.
[...]

thank you for placing the answers in context.

>> I ask some questions and suggest some things.
>> 
>> Voluntarlily and without beeing paid.
> 
> What a martyr you are.

like all the open-source folks?

>> There are many commercial systems around python.
>> 
>> So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.
> 
> If the support you're looking for is beneficial to your commercial 
> application a.k.a. business, then why aren't you making it happen? 

I am in the process of doing so.

First I have to analyze the status-quo.

Which is not very simple with such a community.

> Obviously the existing commercial development teams are doing fine 
> without it, otherwise it would exist. Even then, a commercial
> developer providing their development work to enhance the standard
> Python distribution IS volunteering.

One of the most funny things within open-source is that switching:

first:
"we have powerfull solutions which beat this and that"

then:
"hey, this is just volunteer work"

-

I was impressed by zope and plone.

But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously 
rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the 
foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and 
requirements.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Robert Kern wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> Robert Kern wrote:
> [snip]
> 
>>> The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet 
>>> volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."
>>
>> this answer do not fit in most questions.
>> 
>> please review them again.
> 
> Against my better judgement, I have.
> 
> It certainly fits a, b, and c. It also fits d if you place an implicit 
> "Yes, " in front of the answer. 4/6. I stick with my assessment.

see below.

[...]
>> I ask some questions and suggest some things.
>>
>> Voluntarlily and without beeing paid.
> 
> Questions and suggestions are don't count for much in this community. 
> Code and well-written patches do.
> 
> Stop wasting time on c.l.py and get to work! If you can't do that, then 
> this is not the community you are looking for.

Please speak for yourself.

>> There are many commercial systems around python.
> 
> And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted full-time to 
> developing Python. Not even Guido. 

Who's "Guido"?

> Most of core-Python development happens in people's spare, unpaid time.
> 
> Volunteerism is the core of this community. Trust me.

even if:

Volunteerism does not exclude Professionalism.

>> So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.
> 
> No. You are asking others to volunteer their time, or perhaps, 
> alternately, the PSF and other businesses to volunteer their money to 
> fund people's time to satisfy *your* wants. I am asking you to volunteer 
> *your* time to satisfy *your* wants, 

I'm already doing this.

> or alternately, stop writing questionnaires and bothering us.

Feel free to ignore the threads.

And please speak for yourself.

> Note that this reaction is pretty specific to you and not to other 
> newcomers. Most newcomers do not carry around a sense of entitlement 
> that could flatten a small village. Thus, they are treated with respect 
> and helpfulness. We would appreciate it if you would emulate these 
> people. On a purely pragmatic note, you have to admit that they are 
> getting much better help than you are.

I get the help that I want.

>> If you like to help me and other newcomers, please give me simple some 
>> answers on the initial questions.
> 
> I did provide some answers. Please review them again.

Please have the gentleness [against me and the current/future readers] 
to answer within the context of the original writings.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>> There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin. 
> 
> this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed
> 
> [or am I wrong?]

It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL spreading to 
other open source software with which it is linked.

"In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits programs 
whose sources are distributed under a license that complies with the Open 
Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a without libcygwin.a itself 
causing the resulting program to be covered by the GNU GPL."

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:23:08 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:

(snip)

> But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
> rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
> foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
> requirements.

I couldn't agree more. You need to find a community that *does* care
about essential needs. Might I recommend Perl or Ruby?

-- 
Cheers,
Simon B,
simon@brunningonline.net,
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/

> One of the most funny things within open-source is that switching:
> 
> first:
> "we have powerfull solutions which beat this and that"
> 
> then:
> "hey, this is just volunteer work"
> 

I don't see the contradiction here. It beats a great deal of commercial
solutions in a lot of ways. But not on every single one of these. And the
_reason_ for beating commercial software in certain aspects is exactly that
somebody stood up and volunteered. Obviously you aren't interested in the
more labour-intensive parts of the os-development.

> 
> But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
> rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
> foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
> requirements.

They might not care about _your_ perceived essential needs. But as lots of
people use python and python based solutions with great commercial success,
you might think of reviewing your needs more critical. After all, there is
no _perfect_ system for all needs.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

Simon Brunning wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:23:08 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
>>But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
>>rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
>>foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
>>requirements.
> 
> 
> I couldn't agree more. You need to find a community that *does* care
> about essential needs. Might I recommend Perl or Ruby?
> 

Why do you hate Perl and Ruby community that much ?

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for 
p in 'onurb@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> I'm a newcomer to python:
> 
> [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553
> 

My trollometer's beeping...

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for 
p in 'onurb@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:12:57 +0100, bruno modulix <onurb@xiludom.gro> wrote:
> 
> Why do you hate Perl and Ruby community that much ?

Oh, I don't. But fair's fair - we've carried our share of the burden, surely?

But-don't-get-me-started-on-those-Groovy-bastards-ly Y'rs,
Simon B,
simon@brunningonline.net,
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/

In message <cuq084$r99$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
<ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
>> The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet 
>>volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."
>
>this answer do not fit in most questions.
>
>please review them again.

There you go. Failed the test. He is an AI. A human wouldn't make this 
mistake.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Hi Robert,

>Note that this reaction is pretty specific to you and not to other 
>newcomers.

I couldn't agree more. This guy is amazing, I think he is an AI or 
nowhere near as bright as he thinks he is. Seems to get the same 
reaction regardless of newsgroup or language. His reaction to the Ruby 
crowd almost seemed incendiary - pretty much accused them of having a 
lame language.

>Most newcomers do not carry around a sense of entitlement that could 
>flatten a small village.

That has to rate as one of the funniest things I've read on usenet in 
years.

Cheers

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

In message <cuq5du$k7g$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
<ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
>>  And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted full-time 
>>to  developing Python. Not even Guido.
>
>Who's "Guido"?

LOL Falling off my chair!!!!!!
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

In message <cuq57b$j83$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
<ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
>the community do not care about essential needs and requirements.

Wrong. They do. They just don't care about *your* essential needs and 
requirements which *you* want *others* to fulfill at *their* cost. As 
others have said, "do some work yourself".

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

In message <mailman.2530.1108387404.22381.python-list@python.org>, Simon
Brunning <simon.brunning@gmail.com> writes
>On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:12:57 +0100, bruno modulix <onurb@xiludom.gro> wrote:
>>
>> Why do you hate Perl and Ruby community that much ?
>
>Oh, I don't. But fair's fair - we've carried our share of the burden, surely?

He is already badgering the Ruby guys. Without about as much success as
this newsgroup. When he doesn't get what he wants a post along the lines
of

        "XXXX lang is only suited to small projects and not real world
        industrial projects"
or
        "the community doesn't care"
will appear.

Its quite incredible - in the time he has spent complaining he could
have done his own research and written some useful tools. I know how
long it took me to write my first major C++ app that interfaced with
Python and Ruby. It was less time than he has spent complaining - and
that included rebuilding Python/Ruby, inspecting the source for what I
needed and performing many experiments before I succeeded.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

On 2005-02-14, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote
>> 
>>>The idea that the Python Foundation cares about user needs would affect that.
>> 
>> please let the users speak for themselves.
>
> I have.
>
> I've review several threads,publications, actions etc., that show that 
> the users have this need.

This is open source.  You don't just order somebody else to do
what you want. You _do_ it and donate it to the community.

> please review the initial thread with care, i've pointed to
> some documents/thread.

So what?  You want it, you do it.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm in ATLANTIC CITY
                                  at               riding in a comfortable
                               visi.com            ROLLING CHAIR...

In message <RXU7YhRCrLECFwBD@objmedia.demon.co.uk>, Stephen Kellett 
<snail@objmedia.demon.co.uk> writes
>Hi Robert,

Weird, you hit "reply" and the newsreader does a "post". C'est la vie.
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

> Now, it's rather common to accuse people of trolling these days.
> The fact that Markus Wankus said that Ilias is a troll does not mean
> that everybody should reply to him in that tone.
> This is a one .vs many battle and it sucks.

Just because someone says somebody else is a troll surely is not valid
reason to take that for granted.

But googling [1-*] for Mr. Lazaridis makes it apparent that he _is_ a troll.
And even if you only take the two threads on c.l.py into account IMHO you
can see that. 

He's been _banned_ from several OS project mailing lists like eclipse,
netbeans and hibernate. Of course he claims that is because of censorship
and has nothing to do with his actions in those respective communities. But
somehow to me at least a pattern is visible.


[1]:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/browse_frm/thread/836fe2380e6e2649/748a70ee4e39fc41?q=Lazaridis+Ilias&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3DLazaridis+Ilias%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#748a70ee4e39fc41

[2]: http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=872061&listName=nbusers

[3]:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/browse_frm/thread/f07832cf6d0094f0/85ae8ee0bccdeb14?q=Lazaridis+Ilias&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3DLazaridis+Ilias%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#85ae8ee0bccdeb14

[4]:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/browse_frm/thread/837df2c1188e6e39/18b5dcfd54a6a902?q=Lazaridis+Ilias&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3DLazaridis+Ilias%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#18b5dcfd54a6a902

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

Wow!  I must say, I'm less than impressed with the responses so far.  I
know Ilias can give the impression that he is just trolling, but I can
assure you he is not.  At least, not in this case.  ;-)

So in an effort to make some headway, I'm going to try to summarize the
current state of affairs.  The bottom line is that compiling C
extension modules on the Windows platform for Python 2.4 is, today, a
royal pain in the ass.  Period.  Here's why.

The main challenge is that extensions must be compiled using the same
runtime dll as that used by the Python interpreter itself.  The
official Windows binary installation of Python 2.3.5 and its
predecessors was compiled with one MS product, which was fairly easy to
support with minGW, but Python 2.4 was compiled with the newer .NET
compiler.  Unfortunately, compiling extensions for Python 2.4 with the
free MS tools is not trivial, as evidenced by Mike Fletcher's very
thorough document on the subject:

Python 2.4 Extensions w/ the MS Toolkit Compiler

http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/mstoolkit/

In addition, there are some unresolved licensing questions concerning
the .NET runtime file for extensions (msvcr71.dll):

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-February/051393.html

There have been extensive discussions about these issues on the
Python-Dev mailing list over the past couple of months (mostly in
December, but continuing to the present - see
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-December/thread.html
as a starting point), which seem to have fizzled out or at least
haven't resolved much.  The discussions made reference to work that has
already been done to allow Python to be compiled with minGW:

pyMinGW is a patch to Python source that aims to get Python to compile
under MinGW

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

I've not seen any commentary on the quality of this patch, so that
doesn't appear to be the reason it hasn't been officially adopted.
Reading all the threads from Python-Dev has not enlightened me at all
as to what the underlying reason is for not adopting these changes.
Maybe there are good reasons, I just couldn't find them, and I'm
usually pretty good with Google.

A few of you have mentioned that minGW is not an optimizing compiler on
the Windows platform, whereas the MS .NET one is.  If anyone has
information on the performance differences, I'd really appreciate being
able to see it, particularly as it applies to Python 2.4.

Now, we get to the essence of my particular situation.  I've got a
project that includes some Python extensions written in C.  My users
(who are Python developers, but not necessarily hard-core types) need
to be able to work out of their local Subversion checkouts.  This
includes locally compiling these extensions as necessary.  I'd like
this to work with Python 2.4, and be as painless as possible on my
users.  I can't expect them to purchase a .NET compiler or go through a
bunch of configuration changes.  So far, I haven't figured out a good
way to support this.  I'm open to suggestions.  I suspect that my needs
are very similar to those of the original poster.

Perhaps the issue is in part a matter of minGW catching up with the new
MS compilers.  My understanding of and experience with Python 2.3.5 and
its predecessors has been that Python itself didn't need to be
recompiled with minGW, since extensions compiled with minGW linked to
the same C runtime dll.  So if minGW had support for msvcr71.dll then
maybe this problem goes away with Python 2.4 as well.

If anyone can shed any light on this situation, it would really help me
out.  Thanks.

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

"Pat" wrote:


> The bottom line is that compiling C extension modules on the
> Windows platform for Python 2.4 is, today, a royal pain in the
> ass.

really?

    > python setup.py install

works for me.

</F> 

In article <37bkemF5a7s7vU1@individual.net>,
Diez B. Roggisch <deetsNOSPAM@web.de> wrote:
>> One of the most funny things within open-source is that switching:
>> 
>> first:
>> "we have powerfull solutions which beat this and that"
>> 
>> then:
>> "hey, this is just volunteer work"
>> 
>
>I don't see the contradiction here. It beats a great deal of commercial
>solutions in a lot of ways. But not on every single one of these. And the
>_reason_ for beating commercial software in certain aspects is exactly that
>somebody stood up and volunteered. Obviously you aren't interested in the
>more labour-intensive parts of the os-development.
>
>> 
>> But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
>> rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
>> foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
>> requirements.
>
>They might not care about _your_ perceived essential needs. But as lots of
>people use python and python based solutions with great commercial success,
>you might think of reviewing your needs more critical. After all, there is
>no _perfect_ system for all needs.
			.
			.
			.
Me, too.  On the off-chance that a naive passerby is misled by
parts of this thread, I'll point out that ... well, if the
alternative to Python, say, is commercial products which are to
be judged on how much they "care about essential needs and
requirements" of *users* ...

Nope, 'can't do it.  I can't finish that sentence with a straight
face.

So what if someone appears to be a troll?  Suck it up and rise above
it.  This thread started with legitimate questions. Unfortunately,
almost every response has been dismissive, petty, and a complete waste
of time and effort.  Please respond to the issue or simply ignore it.
The issue is real and I'd like to find a solution to it as well.  Right
now it feels like I'm in the company of a bunch of hell-bent school
bullies.  I'm ashamed of the behavior I'm witnessing on this list.

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

I thought I was being as clear and specific as I needed to be.
Apparently not.  I'm talking about compiling the original source code,
per the recommendations made by Mike Fletcher and documented here:

Python 2.4 Extensions w/ the MS Toolkit Compiler

http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/mstoolkit/

Now, if you know something I don't, I'm all ears.  But I don't see how
your suggestion solves my problem.  But I'll be thrilled if that is the
case.  Care to enlighten me?

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

In message <1108398011.213872.321390@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Pat 
<pobrien@orbtech.com> writes
>Wow!  I must say, I'm less than impressed with the responses so far.  I
>know Ilias can give the impression that he is just trolling, but I can
>assure you he is not.  At least, not in this case.  ;-)

He deserves what he gets. He appears to put no effort in, other than to
o Write his own document for his own needs that no one else is 
interested in
o Answer people's comments to him in a way that does not demonstrate he 
has put any effort in.
o Based on his answers it seems pretty clear to me (and it seems many 
others) that he has not put any effort in and has no intention of doing 
so.

>In addition, there are some unresolved licensing questions concerning
>the .NET runtime file for extensions (msvcr71.dll):

To quote that URL;
<QUOTE>
The 2.4 python.org installer installs msvcr71.dll on the target system.

If someone uses py2exe or a similar tool to create a frozen application,
is he allowed to redistribute this msvcr71.dll to other users together
with his application or not, even if he doesn't own MSVC?
</END QUOTE>

msvcr71.dll is a redistributable for applications written using their 
compiler. You can redistribute that. If that answer is not good enough 
for you there is now a free version of Microsofts Visual Studio called 
Visual Studio Express (downloadable from the Microsoft's website). This 
DLL is (to my understanding) part of Visual Studio 7.1 and Visual Studio 
Express.

No licensing problem exists. Microsoft will not get upset about 
msvcr71.dll being distributed. They will if you distribute msvcr71d.dll 
though - don't do that!

I'm not a lawyer, so take this as you would any other free advice and 
download Visual Studio Express and read the redistribution sections in 
the license/help file to verify. Alternatively search msdn.microsoft.com 
for "redistributable".

Look at this from Microsoft's perspective - Python is a language that 
can be used on Windows operating systems. msvcr71.dll is required to 
make some versions of Python work. Microsoft are not stupid - they know 
that to encourage uptake of their OS they shouldn't put needless 
restrictions on certain technology - the C runtime being on of those 
technologies. It is in Microsoft's own best interests to allow 
msvcr71.dll to be used for Python.

>users.  I can't expect them to purchase a .NET compiler or go through a

See above.

Regards

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Pat wrote:
> Wow!  I must say, I'm less than impressed with the responses so far.  I
> know Ilias can give the impression that he is just trolling, but I can
> assure you he is not.  At least, not in this case.  ;-)
> 
> So in an effort to make some headway, I'm going to try to summarize the
> current state of affairs.  The bottom line is that compiling C
> extension modules on the Windows platform for Python 2.4 is, today, a
> royal pain in the ass.  Period.  Here's why.
> 
> The main challenge is that extensions must be compiled using the same
> runtime dll as that used by the Python interpreter itself.

Actually compiling extensions with mingw seems to work fine. Have you 
tried it?

David

In message <guLnmSj92OECFw0L@objmedia.demon.co.uk>, Stephen Kellett 
<snail@objmedia.demon.co.uk> writes
>Studio Express (downloadable from the Microsoft's website). This DLL is 
>(to my understanding) part of Visual Studio 7.1 and Visual Studio 
>Express.

My mistake. Visual Studio Express is going to be part of Version 8 
(2005) and thus the DLLs there will be msvcr80.dll

That said, I still stand by my licensing comments.

Distributable files overview.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/vccore/h
tml/vcconalistofredistributablefiles.asp

V7.0/V7.1 specific redistribution instructions.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;326922
Title: INFO: Redistribution of the Shared C Runtime Component in Visual
         C++ .NET
Article ID      :       326922
Last Review     :       March 25, 2004
Revision        :       1.0
Keywords:               kbinfo KB326922

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

In message <1108405269.472669.172070@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Pat 
<pobrien@orbtech.com> writes
>now it feels like I'm in the company of a bunch of hell-bent school
>bullies.

 From my experience of bully behaviour that isn't what is happening here. 
Bullying usually involves abusive behaviour and language and isn't much 
to do with the topic as the person. The responses he has got are to do 
with how he is behaving, not who he is. I haven't seen any abusive 
language. As for behaviour, people are being as blunt with him as he is 
with them. Many have also told him what he should do in order to get a 
better response. He has ignored them.

Many societies around the world shun people that won't fit the norm. The 
norm in the newsgroups he is causing trouble in is that "You look for 
yourself first, do some research, then ask". He isn't even willing to 
use a search engine, let alone read the documentation or heaven forbid, 
read the source code himself. Sooner or later he'll give up, or realise 
that if he does a bit of the work himself he'll get much more back. Its 
up to him.

You'll notice that I've answered your question in another reply as its 
obvious you have put some effort in before making your comments. In 
other words I am not behaving in a contradictory way to what I specified 
above.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Actually, no.  We ran into some issues with Python 2.4 that caused us
to return to Python 2.3.5.  But I would really like to upgrade to
Python 2.4.  So I started researching the subject before I did
anything.

If you are telling me that minGW can compile extensions that are
compatible with the Python 2.4 that uses msvcr71.dll, then that is good
news indeed.  Is there anything that needs to be configured or patched
to make this happen?  And how does minGW know which dll to link?  What
if I have both versions of Python installed - 2.3.5 and 2.4?  Is there
an easy way to detect this and switch between the two dlls?

If I'm asking questions already answered elsewhere, I'd love a link to
that resource, if you have it.

Thanks,

Pat

Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

"Pat"wrote:

> I thought I was being as clear and specific as I needed to be.
> Apparently not.  I'm talking about compiling the original source code

the python source or the extension source?

    > The bottom line is that compiling C extension modules

would indicate the latter.  setup.py handles that just fine, if you have the
right tools.  no pain at all.

> Now, if you know something I don't, I'm all ears.  But I don't see how
> your suggestion solves my problem.

if your problem is compiling C extension modules, I suggest getting a
good compiler.  I've done that, and compiling C extension modules is
no problem at all.

if your problem is that you don't want to use a good compiler, or that
your company cannot afford to buy you a compiler, or you have other
reasons to chose the "pain in the ass" way over the "it just works" way,
I'm afraid I cannot help you.  my time's too precious to waste on inferior
tools.

</F> 

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2005-02-14, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> 
>>Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>>
>>>Ilias Lazaridis wrote
>>>
>>>>The idea that the Python Foundation cares about user needs would affect that.
>>>
>>>please let the users speak for themselves.
>>
>>I have.
>>
>>I've review several threads,publications, actions etc., that show that 
>>the users have this need.
> 
> This is open source.  You don't just order somebody else to do
> what you want. You _do_ it and donate it to the community.

I analyze the current situation.

The is the fundamentall step before doing anything.

But the reaction of this community raises some questions and my curiosity.

>>please review the initial thread with care, i've pointed to
>>some documents/thread.
> 
> So what?  You want it, you do it.

I like to synchronize any efforts with the existing ones.

That's why I ask some questions.

nothing special.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Stephen,

I appreciate your responses.  Maybe "school bullies" was an
exaggeration on my part.  At the same time, I'm not sure it is good for
the Python community to expect everyone to roll up their sleeves and
hack at something to make it work.  (And I don't mean to imply that you
hold that opinion.  But far too many others *have* expressed that.)
It's a marketing issue as much as anything.  Why is Apple doing so
well?  They make everything simple.  Now the techies will argue that
they make some things too simple (like the iPod), but it's hard to deny
that simple things that work consistently without any fuss have a
broader appeal with the public at large.

I think the same applies to developers.  Not every programmer is
willing to go through a lot of pain and effort just to get something
simple to work.  I, for one, am willing to go through that pain to save
users of my product (who happen to be developers) from having to do the
same.  But I don't think any less of my users.  I'm as lazy as they
are.  I like simple things that work consistently without any fuss too.
 :-)

Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

In message <1108407625.250592.104280@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Pat 
<pobrien@orbtech.com> writes
>Actually, no.  We ran into some issues with Python 2.4 that caused us
>to return to Python 2.3.5.  But I would really like to upgrade to
>Python 2.4.  So I started researching the subject before I did
>anything.

Pat, could you include some context in your replies? I have no idea if 
you are replying to my comments about Visual Studio Express or someone 
else? The only text I see in your replies is what you write, no text 
from the posting you are replying to. As it is I've ignored all your 
replies so far as I'm not sure I'm the person you are addressing (until 
I saw the above, now I'm confused).

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

>>users.  I can't expect them to purchase a .NET compiler or go through
a

>See above.

That answers the cost question (assuming that your interpretation of
the licensing is correct, since I'm not a lawyer nor qualified to
render much of an opinion on that).  But there is still the issue of
going through a bunch of configuration hassle that scares me away from
expecting my users to make use of the MS tools.  Unless things have
gotten easier since Mike Fletcher wrote about the situation.

But thanks for the licensing info.  Much appreciated.  :-)

Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

jfj a �crit :
> bruno modulix wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>> I'm a newcomer to python:
>>>
>>> [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
>>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553 
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My trollometer's beeping...
>>
> 
> When person 'A' calls person 'B' a troll, these are the possibilities:
> 
> 1. 'A' is indeed a troll
> 
> 2. 'B' is the troll
> 
> 3. both 'A' and 'B' are trolls
> 
> 4. nobody is a troll. they're computer scientists passionate about their 
> ideas and they are trying to convince each other.
> 
> 5. nobody is a troll and there is no trolling going on.
> 
> Now, it's rather common to accuse people of trolling these days.
> The fact that Markus Wankus said that Ilias is a troll does not mean
> that everybody should reply to him in that tone.
> This is a one .vs many battle and it sucks.
> 
You're totaly right. Now just take some minutes to (re)read this thread, 
then google for 'Ilias Lazaridis'.

Bruno

Stephen Kellett a �crit :
> In message <mailman.2530.1108387404.22381.python-list@python.org>, Simon
> Brunning <simon.brunning@gmail.com> writes
> 
>>On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:12:57 +0100, bruno modulix <onurb@xiludom.gro> wrote:
>>
>>>Why do you hate Perl and Ruby community that much ?
>>
>>Oh, I don't. But fair's fair - we've carried our share of the burden, surely?
> 
> 
> He is already badgering the Ruby guys. Without about as much success as
> this newsgroup. When he doesn't get what he wants a post along the lines
> of
> 
>         "XXXX lang is only suited to small projects and not real world
>         industrial projects"
> or
>         "the community doesn't care"
> will appear.
> 
> Its quite incredible - in the time he has spent complaining he could
> have done his own research and written some useful tools. I know how
> long it took me to write my first major C++ app that interfaced with
> Python and Ruby. It was less time than he has spent complaining - and
> that included rebuilding Python/Ruby, inspecting the source for what I
> needed and performing many experiments before I succeeded.

Just google for Ilias Lazaridis... You may observe that our new troll 
has already played the same game on many newsgroups, forums and whatever...


> Stephen

Stephen Kellet said:

<quote>
Pat, could you include some context in your replies? I have no idea if
you are replying to my comments about Visual Studio Express or someone
else? The only text I see in your replies is what you write, no text
from the posting you are replying to. As it is I've ignored all your
replies so far as I'm not sure I'm the person you are addressing (until
I saw the above, now I'm confused).
</quote>

Sorry about that.  I'm replying using Google Groups and making a total
mess of things.  :-(

David Fraser asked if I had tried to compile a Python extension for
Python 2.4 using minGW.  I said that I had not (but I have for Python
2.3.5).  Here is the rest of my reply, for future reference:

We ran into some issues with Python 2.4 that caused us
to return to Python 2.3.5.  But I would really like to upgrade to
Python 2.4.  So I started researching the subject before I did
anything.

If you are telling me that minGW can compile extensions that are
compatible with the Python 2.4 that uses msvcr71.dll, then that is good
news indeed.  Is there anything that needs to be configured or patched
to make this happen?  And how does minGW know which dll to link?  What
if I have both versions of Python installed - 2.3.5 and 2.4?  Is there
an easy way to detect this and switch between the two dlls?

If I'm asking questions already answered elsewhere, I'd love a link to
that resource, if you have it.

Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

In message <1108408914.405899.129990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Pat 
<pobrien@orbtech.com> writes
>That answers the cost question (assuming that your interpretation of
>the licensing is correct, since I'm not a lawyer nor qualified to
>render much of an opinion on that).  But there is still the issue of
>going through a bunch of configuration hassle that scares me away from

What configuration hassle? Can't be any harder than specifying a 
different CRT surely?

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

In message <1108409476.874751.16600@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Pat 
<pobrien@orbtech.com> writes
>if I have both versions of Python installed - 2.3.5 and 2.4?  Is there
>an easy way to detect this and switch between the two dlls?

Easy? Depends what you call easy.

a) You just need to detect if pythonNN.dll is implicitly linked to 
msvcrt.dll or msvcrXX.dll (where XX indicates a VS studio number, 
currently XX can only be 71, but if Python is done for Visual Studio 
2005 (8.0) then XX may also have a value of 80).

b) GetModuleHandle(name of DLL from a) to get the DLL handle.

c) GetProcAddress on the respective to get the C runtime function you 
want to call (for example, fopen).

d) call the function.

You either need (a) or all of (a)...(d) depending on what you are doing. 
Those embedding Python but no idea of the Python version in advance will 
do the latter.

>If I'm asking questions already answered elsewhere, I'd love a link to
>that resource, if you have it.

I'm probably not the best person to answer such a question. I'm mainly a 
C/C++ (with Java under protest) person dabbling in Python/Ruby.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> "Pat"wrote:
>
> > I thought I was being as clear and specific as I needed to be.
> > Apparently not.  I'm talking about compiling the original source
code
>
> the python source or the extension source?
>
>     > The bottom line is that compiling C extension modules
>
> would indicate the latter.  setup.py handles that just fine, if you
have the
> right tools.  no pain at all.
>
> > Now, if you know something I don't, I'm all ears.  But I don't see
how
> > your suggestion solves my problem.
>
> if your problem is compiling C extension modules, I suggest getting a
> good compiler.  I've done that, and compiling C extension modules is
> no problem at all.
>
> if your problem is that you don't want to use a good compiler, or
that
> your company cannot afford to buy you a compiler, or you have other
> reasons to chose the "pain in the ass" way over the "it just works"
way,
> I'm afraid I cannot help you.  my time's too precious to waste on
inferior
> tools.

Okay, I think we are pretty much talking about the same thing.  My
problem is not that I'm unable or unwilling to purchase a good
compiler.  My problem is that I don't want to make it a requirement of
my users.  The twist is that my users will be working out of a
Subversion repository that includes source code for extensions written
in C.  Those extensions need to be compiled, and the code changes too
frequently for me to want to deal with supplying compiled binaries.

So I'm looking for options for Windows users who do not have, and are
unwilling to get, a Microsoft compiler.  For some users, minGW is an
attractive option.  For those who want to use minGW, I'm trying to
establish whether or not minGW is a viable option, particularly for
Python 2.4.  I was under the impression that there were possible
advantages to compiling Python itself using minGW, but that that
required some patches that hadn't been applied to Python (for reasons
unknown to me).  Said patches are available here:

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

I'm also under the impression that there are possible disadvantages to
compiling Python itself with anything other than the Microsoft's
optimizing compiler, such as performance.  But I haven't seen any
numbers on that, so I don't have information one way or the other.

It may also be the case that minGW can now correctly compile extension
that link to the newer runtime used by Python 2.4, but that wasn't
always the case.  If that's true, that would eliminate the primary
reason for wanting to compile Python itself with minGW, though
philosophical differences with MS might motivate some to want to avoid
the MS compilers altogether.

Perhaps the only thing that's a mess is my understanding of the
situation.  But even if that's the case, I don't think I'm alone, based
on all the threads I've read over the past couple of days.  ;-)

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer to reduce my confusion.

Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <1108408914.405899.129990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Pat
> <pobrien@orbtech.com> writes
> >That answers the cost question (assuming that your interpretation of
> >the licensing is correct, since I'm not a lawyer nor qualified to
> >render much of an opinion on that).  But there is still the issue of
> >going through a bunch of configuration hassle that scares me away
from
>
> What configuration hassle? Can't be any harder than specifying a
> different CRT surely?

I don't want to have to ask users of my code to have to go through
this:

http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/mstoolkit/

What I want is to provide everything a user would need within my own
Subversion repository.  Any C code would be compiled behind the scenes
using free tools that I'm able to include in my repository (without
having to hire a lawyer first).

Having to tell users that they need to download, install, and configure
all this additional compiler stuff is asking too much from my potential
user base, since I'm also targeting novices and developers from other
languages for whom C compiler stuff is going to be a barrier to entry.

I hope that makes sense.  :-)

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

Pat wrote:
> There have been extensive discussions about these issues on the
> Python-Dev mailing list over the past couple of months (mostly in
> December, but continuing to the present - see
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-December/thread.html
> as a starting point), which seem to have fizzled out or at least
> haven't resolved much.  The discussions made reference to work that
has
> already been done to allow Python to be compiled with minGW:
>
> pyMinGW is a patch to Python source that aims to get Python to
compile
> under MinGW
>
> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
>
> I've not seen any commentary on the quality of this patch, so that
> doesn't appear to be the reason it hasn't been officially adopted.
> Reading all the threads from Python-Dev has not enlightened me at all
> as to what the underlying reason is for not adopting these changes.
> Maybe there are good reasons, I just couldn't find them, and I'm
> usually pretty good with Google.


If passing all the regression tests of the official Windows Python
distribution is an indication of the quality of patch-- and pyMinGW
patched and MinGW built Python does pass all of them-- then one is
inclined to say that pyMinGW is a good patch.

The reason why it is, on the other hand, not included in the official
distribution is threefold.

1. Contrary to what many might imagine, I don't think enough people use
MinGW to frankly justify any extra effort beyond pyMinGW.
2. Given number 1 above, this patch, I believe, and I could be
mistaken, must not rush to be included in Python's core; people like
your esteemed person should test it (note that it is designed not to
interfere with your trusted and working official Python, if any); it is
only when enough people do such testing that there will be a case for
it to be included in Python's core.
3. Finally. there is nothing wrong with third-party patches if they get
the job done, which I believe is the case with pyMinGW.


Regards,
Khalid

In message <gjA3VcsQFQECFw0m@objmedia.demon.co.uk>, Stephen Kellett 
<snail@objmedia.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <1108409476.874751.16600@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Pat 
><pobrien@orbtech.com> writes
>>if I have both versions of Python installed - 2.3.5 and 2.4?  Is there
>>an easy way to detect this and switch between the two dlls?
>
>Easy? Depends what you call easy.
>
>a) You just need to detect if pythonNN.dll is implicitly linked to 
>msvcrt.dll or msvcrXX.dll (where XX indicates a VS studio number, 
>currently XX can only be 71, but if Python is done for Visual Studio 
>2005 (8.0) then XX may also have a value of 80).

I should have also mentioned that if you don't know how to do get the 
list of imported DLLs you can grab the source code for the PE Explorer 
DLL from:

http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/freeSoftware/peFileDLL.html

If you want to see how to use this DLL you can also grab:

http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/freeSoftware/peFileExplorer.html

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

"Pat" wrote:

> Okay, I think we are pretty much talking about the same thing.  My
> problem is not that I'm unable or unwilling to purchase a good
> compiler.  My problem is that I don't want to make it a requirement of
> my users.  The twist is that my users will be working out of a
> Subversion repository that includes source code for extensions written
> in C.  Those extensions need to be compiled, and the code changes too
> frequently for me to want to deal with supplying compiled binaries.

here's what I do to supply compiled binaries for 2.1 through 2.4:

    > mkall
    > upload dist

> So I'm looking for options for Windows users who do not have, and are
> unwilling to get, a Microsoft compiler.  For some users, minGW is an
> attractive option.  For those who want to use minGW, I'm trying to
> establish whether or not minGW is a viable option, particularly for
> Python 2.4.

here's what I just did (time in minutes):

    +00: googled for the mingw home page
    +00: found the mingw download page
    +02: finally figured out what to download
    +03: noticed that my usual SF site only offered 1K/s; aborted download
    +07: finished downloading the mingw kit from another SF site
    +17: finished installing
    +18: added \mingw\bin to the path
    +18: typed "python setup.py install --compiler=mingw32"
    +18: got a linker error; googled for help
    +19: copied python24.dll to \mingw\lib
    +20: finished building the sample library (cElementTree); all tests pass

so what's your excuse for not doing this? ;-)

</F> 

"Pat" wrote:

> Having to tell users that they need to download, install, and configure
> all this additional compiler stuff is asking too much from my potential
> user base, since I'm also targeting novices and developers from other
> languages for whom C compiler stuff is going to be a barrier to entry.
>
> I hope that makes sense.  :-)

telling them to download and configure subversion just to be able to use
your stuff doesn't make much sense, no.

(not that subversion is hard to install, though, but it's a lot harder than just
running a bdist installer).

</F> 

In message <1108411614.268293.61270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Pat 
<pobrien@orbtech.com> writes
>> What configuration hassle? Can't be any harder than specifying a
>> different CRT surely?
>
>I don't want to have to ask users of my code to have to go through
>this:
>
>http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/mstoolkit/

OK. I misunderstood your original intent. I thought the original 
question was can we redistribute this DLL? I answered this bit. I wasn't 
attempting to answer the larger question about building extensions etc. 
My development environment has all the things in that article by default 
- I wouldn't even start work without them, so I had them "taken for 
granted" in my thoughts. I can see your problem :-) but I have no easy 
answer. Sorry.
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

"Pat" wrote:

> If you are telling me that minGW can compile extensions that are
> compatible with the Python 2.4 that uses msvcr71.dll, then that is good
> news indeed.  Is there anything that needs to be configured or patched
> to make this happen?  And how does minGW know which dll to link?  What
> if I have both versions of Python installed - 2.3.5 and 2.4?  Is there
> an easy way to detect this and switch between the two dlls?

just use the right Python to run the setup.py script, and distutils will take
care of the rest.

</F> 

Stephen Kellett wrote:

>>if I have both versions of Python installed - 2.3.5 and 2.4?  Is there
>>an easy way to detect this and switch between the two dlls?
>
> Easy? Depends what you call easy.

in the context of "building a C extension when you have multiple versions
installed", the answer is "easy".  setup.py automatically finds the right DLL,
mingw seems take care of the rest.

> a) You just need to detect if pythonNN.dll is implicitly linked to msvcrt.dll or msvcrXX.dll 
> (where XX indicates a VS studio number, currently XX can only be 71, but if Python is done for 
> Visual Studio 2005 (8.0) then XX may also have a value of 80).
>
> b) GetModuleHandle(name of DLL from a) to get the DLL handle.
>
> c) GetProcAddress on the respective to get the C runtime function you want to call (for example, 
> fopen).
>
> d) call the function.
>
> You either need (a) or all of (a)...(d) depending on what you are doing. Those embedding Python 
> but no idea of the Python version in advance will do the latter.

if someone needs code that does it all, check the exemaker sources:

    http://effbot.org/zone/exemaker.htm

</F> 

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> "Pat" wrote:
>
> > Okay, I think we are pretty much talking about the same thing.  My
> > problem is not that I'm unable or unwilling to purchase a good
> > compiler.  My problem is that I don't want to make it a requirement
of
> > my users.  The twist is that my users will be working out of a
> > Subversion repository that includes source code for extensions
written
> > in C.  Those extensions need to be compiled, and the code changes
too
> > frequently for me to want to deal with supplying compiled binaries.
>
> here's what I do to supply compiled binaries for 2.1 through 2.4:
>
>     > mkall
>     > upload dist
>
> > So I'm looking for options for Windows users who do not have, and
are
> > unwilling to get, a Microsoft compiler.  For some users, minGW is
an
> > attractive option.  For those who want to use minGW, I'm trying to
> > establish whether or not minGW is a viable option, particularly for
> > Python 2.4.
>
> here's what I just did (time in minutes):
>
>     +00: googled for the mingw home page
>     +00: found the mingw download page
>     +02: finally figured out what to download
>     +03: noticed that my usual SF site only offered 1K/s; aborted
download
>     +07: finished downloading the mingw kit from another SF site
>     +17: finished installing
>     +18: added \mingw\bin to the path
>     +18: typed "python setup.py install --compiler=mingw32"
>     +18: got a linker error; googled for help
>     +19: copied python24.dll to \mingw\lib
>     +20: finished building the sample library (cElementTree); all
tests pass
>
> so what's your excuse for not doing this? ;-)

A few things.  Primarily the fact that I'm not very experienced in C
(the extensions that I need to have compiled are not written by me).
Secondarily, the fact that the discussion threads I read made it seem
much more complicated than what you just described.  Third, the fact
that some of the code we've tried to compile didn't compile cleanly,
the way your cElementTree did (but I can't remember what exactly the
problem was and I didn't do the compiling).  And, finally, an aversion
to trial-and-error solutions.  I prefer to Google and ask questions
when I'm out of my element.

Thanks for the info.

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

In message <cuqta4$4c1$2@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
<ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
>I like to synchronize any efforts with the existing ones.

I assume the reason for doing that would be to avoid duplicating effort? 
If that is the case why do you want lots of people all to answer your 
questionnaire. Thats a huge duplication of effort.

A much more effective use of effort would be for you to do the research 
and when you are done to ask people to comment on the *results* of the 
research, not the questions.

This accomplishes several things:
o Reduction in duplication of effort.
o Demonstrates to everyone else that you are prepared to do some work 
before asking questions.
o When you find that the response is much more welcoming than you have 
had so far you will have learnt that you need to put some effort in to 
get some reward out (which is what most of us have been trying to tell 
you).

Of course, based on your behaviour here (and currently in comp.lang.ruby 
where you are spinning a nice yarn in not bothering to read up on the 
answers people give you, even when their answers are detailed), I have 
not much hope of you taking the above approach.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Michael Hoffman wrote:

> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python 
>> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?
> 
> 
> Why should they? It already runs on Windows with a freely available
> compiler.

The point is that the freely available compiler wouldn't be free if
it wasn't for gcc.  Just for that I _believe_ python, being open source,
should support mingw as the default.  But I *don't care* and I don't 
mind, really ;)


jfj

"Pat" wrote:

> A few things.  Primarily the fact that I'm not very experienced in C
> (the extensions that I need to have compiled are not written by me).
> Secondarily, the fact that the discussion threads I read made it seem
> much more complicated than what you just described.

from two posts at the top of this thread:

    "Writing a setup.py and running
        python setup.py build_ext --compiler=mingw32
    works for me *without* any more work. Things can't get much
    simpler."

and

    "The mingw compiler *is* supported through distutils. distutils
    can straightforwardly be configured to build extensions with
    mingw."

(now go read Ilias replies to those posts)

> Third, the fact that some of the code we've tried to compile didn't compile
> cleanly, the way your cElementTree did (but I can't remember what exactly
> the problem was and I didn't do the compiling).

was that code tested under gcc?  code that compiles under visual C doesn't
necessarily compile silently under gcc, but fixing that is usually pretty trivial
(no worse than porting mostly portable code between platforms).

> And, finally, an aversion to trial-and-error solutions.  I prefer to Google and
> ask questions when I'm out of my element.

sure didn't sound that way when you entered this thread:

    "So in an effort to make some headway, I'm going to try to summarize the
    current state of affairs.  The bottom line is that compiling C extension modules
    on the Windows platform for Python 2.4 is, today, a royal pain in the ass.
    Period.  Here's why. /.../"

now go download MinGW and figure out what's wrong with your C code.
if you get stuck, post the error messages, and I'm sure some c.l.pythoneer
will help you sort it out.

</F> 

Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <cuq5du$k7g$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
> <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
> 
>>>  And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted full-time 
>>> to  developing Python. Not even Guido.
>>
>>
>> Who's "Guido"?
> 
> 
> LOL Falling off my chair!!!!!!

I think the expression you are looking for is ROFL!

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
> If it is a programming language, the requirement "using an open-source
> toolchain" is a rational and valid one.

It is. However, mingW has nothing to do with "using an open-sourcer
toolchain".

Python runs in an environment with a full, open-source tool chain. You
can use it on Linux or any of the various BSDs. It also runs in an
environment where you can't have an open-source toolchain: Windows.

Once you've given up on an open-source environment, arguing about
trivia like which free compiler you are going to use is a waste of
time. Either use a real open-source environment, or live with the
closed-source tools/environment that someone is willing to support.

Or, of course, support the environment you want yourself.

    <mike
-- 
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>			http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <cuqta4$4c1$2@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
> <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
> 
>> I like to synchronize any efforts with the existing ones.
> 
> I assume the reason for doing that would be to avoid duplicating effort? 
[...] - (off-topic suggestions processing model)

Your suggestions were irrelevant to me.

Please avoid further off-topic posts.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Duncan Booth wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>>>There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin. 
>>
>>this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed
>>
>>[or am I wrong?]
> 
> It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL spreading to 
> other open source software with which it is linked.
> 
> "In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits programs 
> whose sources are distributed under a license that complies with the Open 
> Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a without libcygwin.a itself 
> causing the resulting program to be covered by the GNU GPL."

If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software with 
the cygwin toolset.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

[Sorry, I'm to tired to read more posts today. I'll try to answer to 
each message adressed to me tomorrow. Thank you for your time.]

-

I find this thread facinating.

I don't know wich of the posters in this thread belong to the python team.

Nearly no one community member gives simply some answers to this very 
simple questions.

Please summarize all the efforts the community has taken to write within 
this thread.

This sum of efforts should be enouth to setup a basic official MinGW 
compilation.

I have the strange feeling, that some people within the community and 
the team are not intrested in this.

-

copied from another answer:

"The Python Foundation could create an official sub-project to create an 
automated build target based on the MinGW toolchain. I am sure that many 
community members would be more than happy to contribute."

-

Let's see:

The process would be:

a) A Python Foundation official states: "of course we accept diversity 
and of course we are intrested that our source-code-base compiles 
directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".

b) the pyMinGW developer states: "I am intrested that my patches are 
included within the main python source code base" [of course this 
contribution would deserve to be mentioned somewhere]

c) One part of the Python Community states: "look those loosers, like to 
use MinGW toolkit - pah! I'll continue to use my super-optimizing, xx% 
faster results, less hassle Microsoft-Compiler"

d) One part of the Python Community states: "I'm very happy that my 
toolset of choice gets official support, to which I can contribute as a 
community member"

e) there is no point e. People start simply to cooperate, thus python's 
evolution is ensured.

-

I try to sleep after this communicational desaster here.

Good night to all.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

In message <cur8m5$g8h$1@news.freedom2surf.net>, Steve Horsley 
<shoot@the.moon> writes
>Stephen Kellett wrote:
>>> Who's "Guido"?
>>   LOL Falling off my chair!!!!!!
>
>I think the expression you are looking for is ROFL!

:-) Yes, but with that I could've been standing up before ending up on 
the floor. I wrote it as I felt it!. Its a really good demonstration as 
to the depth of the research performed by Illias.

I'm waiting for the "Who's Matz?" comment in comp.lang.ruby....

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Duncan Booth wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>>> There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin. 
>>>
>>>
>>> this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed
>>>
>>> [or am I wrong?]
>>
>>
>> It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL spreading 
>> to other open source software with which it is linked.
>>
>> "In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits 
>> programs whose sources are distributed under a license that complies 
>> with the Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a without 
>> libcygwin.a itself causing the resulting program to be covered by the 
>> GNU GPL."
> 
> 
> If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software with 
> the cygwin toolset.

Wait, you demand a completely open source toolchain on a proprietary 
operating system to develop proprietary software?

The mind *boggles*.

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Robert Kern wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>> Robert Kern wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet 
>>>> volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."
>>>
>>>
>>> this answer do not fit in most questions.
>>>
>>> please review them again.
>>
>>
>> Against my better judgement, I have.
>>
>> It certainly fits a, b, and c. It also fits d if you place an implicit 
>> "Yes, " in front of the answer. 4/6. I stick with my assessment.
> 
> 
> see below.
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> I ask some questions and suggest some things.
>>>
>>> Voluntarlily and without beeing paid.
>>
>>
>> Questions and suggestions are don't count for much in this community. 
>> Code and well-written patches do.
>>
>> Stop wasting time on c.l.py and get to work! If you can't do that, 
>> then this is not the community you are looking for.
> 
> 
> Please speak for yourself.

I think that my participation in the community for the past six years 
and a rational examination of the responses you have received so far 
qualify me, just a little bit, to conclude that this community does not 
tolerate your kind of behaviour well.

If you want one that does so tolerate your behaviour, you need to keep 
looking.

>>> There are many commercial systems around python.
>>
>>
>> And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted full-time to 
>> developing Python. Not even Guido. 
> 
> 
> Who's "Guido"?

The guy who wrote Python originally and is still the head developer.

>> Most of core-Python development happens in people's spare, unpaid time.
>>
>> Volunteerism is the core of this community. Trust me.
> 
> 
> even if:
> 
> Volunteerism does not exclude Professionalism.

Volunteerism does not, indeed, exclude professionalism. However, being 
professional does not entail satisfying the desires of everyone who 
asks. Being professional does not mean that volunteerism is not the 
driving force of this community.

If this does not appeal to you, then this is not the community that you 
are looking for.

>>> So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.
>>
>>
>> No. You are asking others to volunteer their time, or perhaps, 
>> alternately, the PSF and other businesses to volunteer their money to 
>> fund people's time to satisfy *your* wants. I am asking you to 
>> volunteer *your* time to satisfy *your* wants, 
> 
> 
> I'm already doing this.

Okay, let me clarify: I am asking you to volunteer your time with 
something that is going to be productive. Continuing here on c.l.py as 
you have been will not be productive. I've seen dozens of people who act 
like you do come in to this newsgroup and leave again unsatisfied.

>> or alternately, stop writing questionnaires and bothering us.
> 
> 
> Feel free to ignore the threads.

I would have been more than happy to until my web page was used. Now I 
feel some obligation to correct some things.

> And please speak for yourself.

I am speaking as a member of this community, not necessarily for this 
community. But I do have some experience with how this community behaves 
and how it responds to people who behave like you do. I know that they 
do not mix well at all.

If you want a community that does tolerate this behaviour, you need to 
keep looking.

>> Note that this reaction is pretty specific to you and not to other 
>> newcomers. Most newcomers do not carry around a sense of entitlement 
>> that could flatten a small village. Thus, they are treated with 
>> respect and helpfulness. We would appreciate it if you would emulate 
>> these people. On a purely pragmatic note, you have to admit that they 
>> are getting much better help than you are.
> 
> 
> I get the help that I want.

You could do it much more efficiently. And in a way that does not 
generate the obvious ill-will that you have generated. This thread 
*could* have been completely technical and addressed your real concerns 
quite quickly. However, you have acted in a way that *invites* the 
accusation of trolling, that immediately disinclines people to help you, 
that ruins your credibility here.

You *can* act differently, and we *will* respond better.

If you don't want to act differently, then your interaction with this 
community will continue to be counterproductive, and I would advise you 
to look for some other community that is more responsive.

>>> If you like to help me and other newcomers, please give me simple 
>>> some answers on the initial questions.
>>
>>
>> I did provide some answers. Please review them again.
> 
> 
> Please have the gentleness [against me and the current/future readers] 
> to answer within the context of the original writings.

I will be more careful in the future.

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter

[Ilias Lazaridis]
....
> Let's see:
>
> The process would be:
>
> a) A Python Foundation official states: "of course we accept diversity
> and of course we are intrested that our source-code-base compiles
> directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".

Well, I'm a Director of the Python Software Foundation, and my view is
"the more platforms the merrier".  But I'm not paid to work on Python,
and I don't have time to volunteer to help MinGW along, so I don't
anticipate that I'll do anything here beyond writing this reply.

I think you're mistaken about the role the PSF plays here.  For
example, the PSF does no development work on Python -- all work on
Python comes from volunteers, and the PSF can't tell anyone what to
do.  The PSF did start a grant program last year, and a proposal to
fund MinGW-for-Python development would certainly be considered.  But
that too requires that someone volunteer to write such a proposal, and
take their chances on getting a grant.  Those chances are,
unfortunately, not good, since even in the program's first year we got
proposals requesting funding vastly exceeding the US$40K we could
afford to spend.

That leaves volunteers, or a company that wants what you want enough
to pay for it on their own (which has happened, but not often -- I
don't think it's happened since Zope Corp funded development of the
datetime module).

> b) the pyMinGW developer states: "I am intrested that my patches are
> included within the main python source code base" [of course this
> contribution would deserve to be mentioned somewhere]
>
> c) One part of the Python Community states: "look those loosers, like to
> use MinGW toolkit - pah! I'll continue to use my super-optimizing, xx%
> faster results, less hassle Microsoft-Compiler"
>
> d) One part of the Python Community states: "I'm very happy that my
> toolset of choice gets official support, to which I can contribute as a
> community member"
>
> e) there is no point e. People start simply to cooperate, thus python's
> evolution is ensured.

Sorry, I didn't grasp the point of b thru e.

> ... 
> Good night to all.

Likewise!

Pat wrote:

> I think the same applies to developers.  Not every programmer is
> willing to go through a lot of pain and effort just to get something
> simple to work.  

True... but given I.L.'s insistence on a rather stringent set of 
requirements (fully open-source toolchain to produce closed-source 
software on proprietary OS), and his attitude ("Why haven't all of you 
done this for me already? WHY WHY WHY?"), he comes across as someone 
who's *insisting* that *someone else* should go to a lot of pain and 
effort on *his* behalf.  Indeed, he's insisting that the Python 
community should provide volunteer effort because it will (supposedly) 
assist him in his commercial endeavor.

Notably, when you've commented in a reasonable manner about having 
apparently similar needs, several people have offered suggestions as 
to how to solve your problems.  People have also offered I.L. 
suggestions, but he derides them as not being exactly what he wants 
and continues to insist that others should perform volunteer work for 
his benefit.

Now, there's nothing wrong with asking (politely) why certain things 
are the way they are, or suggesting that it'd be nice if someone 
changed a few things.  But the insistence that he's being horribly 
wronged because people aren't jumping at the chance to assist him is 
more than a little bit offensive -- especially when he's turning up 
his nose at solutions that are close (but not exact) matches to his 
"requirements".  Instead of saying "Hey, someone's done half my work 
for me -- great!", he's saying "Hey, why haven't you done the rest of 
my work!"

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International

bruno modulix wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> I'm a newcomer to python:
>>
>> [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553
>>
> 
> My trollometer's beeping...
> 

When person 'A' calls person 'B' a troll, these are the possibilities:

1. 'A' is indeed a troll

2. 'B' is the troll

3. both 'A' and 'B' are trolls

4. nobody is a troll. they're computer scientists passionate about their 
ideas and they are trying to convince each other.

5. nobody is a troll and there is no trolling going on.

Now, it's rather common to accuse people of trolling these days.
The fact that Markus Wankus said that Ilias is a troll does not mean
that everybody should reply to him in that tone.
This is a one .vs many battle and it sucks.


gerald

In article <mailman.2599.1108429568.22381.python-list@python.org>,
Tim Peters  <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:
>[Ilias Lazaridis]
>...
			.
			.
			.
>That leaves volunteers, or a company that wants what you want enough
>to pay for it on their own (which has happened, but not often -- I
>don't think it's happened since Zope Corp funded development of the
>datetime module).
			.
			.
			.
'Depending how you categorize things, there have been a few others 
since then--IBM, for example, has paid non-IBM people for Python
stuff IBM open-sourced.

Well, maybe more than a few, now that I think about it.

Pat wrote:
> Actually, no.  We ran into some issues with Python 2.4 that caused us
> to return to Python 2.3.5.  But I would really like to upgrade to
> Python 2.4.  So I started researching the subject before I did
> anything.
> 
> If you are telling me that minGW can compile extensions that are
> compatible with the Python 2.4 that uses msvcr71.dll, then that is good
> news indeed.  Is there anything that needs to be configured or patched
> to make this happen?  And how does minGW know which dll to link?  What
> if I have both versions of Python installed - 2.3.5 and 2.4?  Is there
> an easy way to detect this and switch between the two dlls?
> 
> If I'm asking questions already answered elsewhere, I'd love a link to
> that resource, if you have it.

I use MinGW myself to compile extensions for Python 2.3.x so you should 
have no problems there. And it seems like from the rest of the thread 
that it works for Python 2.4 as well.
But please just download it, try it out, and report any problems in a 
separate thread here - I'm sure you'll find people more than willing to 
help. The actual error messages etc will yield more valuable discussion 
than any speculation now - or you might find it just working

David

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>> "In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits
>> programs whose sources are distributed under a license that complies
>> with the Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a without
>> libcygwin.a itself causing the resulting program to be covered by the
>> GNU GPL." 
> 
> If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software with 
> the cygwin toolset.
> 

Contrariwise. You can produce commercial software, and it doesn't have to 
be GPL licensed. However if you want to distribute it (and much, possibly  
most, commercial software is never distributed) you have to choose between 
making it open-source, or buying a commercial license for cygwin. You do 
realise that you can produce open-source software commercially?

If you want to make your program closed source then to distribute it you 
have to pay for the cygwin license, which all seems pretty fair to me. You 
have a problem with that?

"jfj" <jfj@freemail.gr> wrote:

> 5. nobody is a troll and there is no trolling going on.

    http://tinyurl.com/6xmfz

</F> 

Tim Peters wrote:
> [Ilias Lazaridis]
> ...
> 
>>Let's see:
>>
>>The process would be:
>>
>>a) A Python Foundation official states: "of course we accept diversity
>>and of course we are intrested that our source-code-base compiles
>>directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".
> 
> Well, I'm a Director of the Python Software Foundation, and my view is
> "the more platforms the merrier".  

I extract: "you are intrested, that the source-code-base compiles 
directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".

Thus you should be intrested, that existent patches are incorporated 
into the source-code-base.

The suggested process ist: use of #defines whenever possible, to avoid 
influence on the existent behaviour of the code.

> But I'm not paid to work on Python,
> and I don't have time to volunteer to help MinGW along, so I don't
> anticipate that I'll do anything here beyond writing this reply.

You have done already very much.

But should should take some time to evaluate community needs.

> I think you're mistaken about the role the PSF plays here.  For
> example, the PSF does no development work on Python -- all work on
> Python comes from volunteers, and the PSF can't tell anyone what to
> do.  

I understand.

PSF has no influence on the development. I've read a little around, and 
start to understand:

http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes-2004-11-09.html

> The PSF did start a grant program last year, and a proposal to
[...] - (funding)

I don't think that a founding is neccessary.

This effort could be driven by the intrested community members (which 
obviously exist).

>>b) the pyMinGW developer states: "I am intrested that my patches are
>>included within the main python source code base" [of course this
>>contribution would deserve to be mentioned somewhere]

I mean the developer of those patches:

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

He must be intrested that his patches are incorporated to the main 
source code base, which would render his website useless [but of course 
not his efforts and reputation].

[Of course his website could still serve as an "central point" for 
intrested MinGW specific contributors.]

>>c) One part of the Python Community states: "look those loosers, like to
>>use MinGW toolkit - pah! I'll continue to use my super-optimizing, xx%
>>faster results, less hassle Microsoft-Compiler"

 From the replies within this thread, i've extracted that some community 
members would think somehow this way.

>>d) One part of the Python Community states: "I'm very happy that my
>>toolset of choice gets official support, to which I can contribute as a
>>community member"

 From the replies within this thread, i've extracted that some community 
members would think somehow this way.

>>e) there is no point e. People start simply to cooperate, thus python's
>>evolution is ensured.

A solid source-code-base and centralized efforts are a fundamentall part 
for the evolution of python.

> Sorry, I didn't grasp the point of b thru e.

I've tried to clarify.

-

Now, can you please tell me the process I have to follow to suggest the 
following (to the PSF or to the programmers or to the decision takers), 
possibly to get at least a vote on it:

"Please ensure that the source-code-base compliles directly with MinGW. 
The suggested process is to:

   * provide the infrastructure
     (e.g. mailinglist, issue- tracking-category,... )

   * Notify the community about this subproject to channelise efforts

   * include existing MinGW specific patches

   * ensure future verificatioin of changes,
     * optimal:    due to an automated build-system
     * or simpler: due to community-feedback
"

I've read a little about the processes:

http://www.python.org/dev/
http://www.python.org/dev/culture.html
http://www.python.org/dev/process.html

But I can't figure it out.

>>... 
>>Good night to all.
> 
> 
> Likewise!

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Mike Meyer wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
> 
>>If it is a programming language, the requirement "using an open-source
>>toolchain" is a rational and valid one.
> 
> It is. However, mingW has nothing to do with "using an open-sourcer
> toolchain".
> 
> Python runs in an environment with a full, open-source tool chain. You
[...] - (twisting context and personal requirements)

sorry, no further comment.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Duncan Booth wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> 
>>>"In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits
>>>programs whose sources are distributed under a license that complies
>>>with the Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a without
>>>libcygwin.a itself causing the resulting program to be covered by the
>>>GNU GPL." 
>>
>>If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software with 
>>the cygwin toolset.
> 
> Contrariwise. You can produce commercial software, and it doesn't have to 
> be GPL licensed. However if you want to distribute it (and much, possibly  
> most, commercial software is never distributed) you have to choose between 
> making it open-source, or buying a commercial license for cygwin. You do 
> realise that you can produce open-source software commercially?

I understand that I've possibly not expressed myself clear.

"proprietary software" should be the right term, right?

> If you want to make your program closed source then to distribute it you 
> have to pay for the cygwin license, which all seems pretty fair to me. You 
> have a problem with that?

yes.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Robert Kern wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> Duncan Booth wrote:
>>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin.
>>>> 
>>>> this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed
>>>> 
>>>> [or am I wrong?]
>>> 
>>> It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL
>>> spreading
[...]

>> If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software
>> with the cygwin toolset.
> 
> Wait, you demand a completely open source toolchain on a proprietary
>  operating system to develop proprietary software?

I do not 'demand' this.

You've described existing constructs, which I simply like to use.

> The mind *boggles*.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Robert Kern wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
>>> Questions and suggestions are don't count for much in this
>>> community. Code and well-written patches do.
>>> 
>>> Stop wasting time on c.l.py and get to work! If you can't do
>>> that, then this is not the community you are looking for.
>> 
>> Please speak for yourself.
> 
> I think that my participation in the community for the past six years
>  and a rational examination of the responses you have received so far
>  qualify me, just a little bit, to conclude that this community does
> not tolerate your kind of behaviour well.

I do tolerate their behaviour.

I have to.

This is a public resource.

> If you want one that does so tolerate your behaviour, you need to
> keep looking.

I don't need to look.

They read, silently, deriving their conclusions.

About me.

About you.

About the python community.

[It is of course sad, that the "bad manners" / "missing focusation on 
the context" of the actively writing part reflects directly to the whole 
community.]

>>>> There are many commercial systems around python.
>>> 
>>> And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted
>>> full-time to developing Python. Not even Guido.
>> 
>> Who's "Guido"?
> 
> The guy who wrote Python originally and is still the head developer.

ok

http://www.python.org/~guido/

>>> Most of core-Python development happens in people's spare, unpaid
>>> time.
>>> 
>>> Volunteerism is the core of this community. Trust me.
>> 
>> even if:
>> 
>> Volunteerism does not exclude Professionalism.
> 
> Volunteerism does not, indeed, exclude professionalism. However,
> being professional does not entail satisfying the desires of everyone
> who asks. Being professional does not mean that volunteerism is not
> the driving force of this community.
> 
> If this does not appeal to you, then this is not the community that
> you are looking for.

I've not understood what you've written.

But I understand that it is not relevant to the topic.

>>>> So please stop this volunteerism-stuff.
>>> 
>>> No. You are asking others to volunteer their time, or perhaps, 
>>> alternately, the PSF and other businesses to volunteer their
>>> money to fund people's time to satisfy *your* wants. I am asking
>>> you to volunteer *your* time to satisfy *your* wants,
>> 
>> I'm already doing this.
> 
> Okay, let me clarify: 
[...] - (processing model)

Your suggestions affecting my processing model are irrelevant.

>>> or alternately, stop writing questionnaires and bothering us.
>> 
>> Feel free to ignore the threads.
> 
> I would have been more than happy to until my web page was used. Now
> I feel some obligation to correct some things.

You webpage is a public resource.

And it was terribly outdated.

Now you have corrected your website.

Thank you.

>> And please speak for yourself.
> 
> I am speaking as a member of this community, not necessarily for this
>  community. But I do have some experience with how this community
> behaves and how it responds to people who behave like you do. I know
> that they do not mix well at all.
> 
> If you want a community that does tolerate this behaviour, you need
> to keep looking.

I'm not looking for such a community.

>>> Note that this reaction is pretty specific to you and not to
>>> other newcomers. Most newcomers do not carry around a sense of
>>> entitlement that could flatten a small village. Thus, they are
>>> treated with respect and helpfulness. We would appreciate it if
>>> you would emulate these people. On a purely pragmatic note, you
>>> have to admit that they are getting much better help than you
>>> are.
>> 
>> I get the help that I want.
> 
> You could do it much more efficiently.
[...] - (processing suggestions detected, not readed)

sorry, my processing is not the topic here.

>>>> If you like to help me and other newcomers, please give me
>>>> simple some answers on the initial questions.
>>> 
>>> I did provide some answers. Please review them again.
>> 
>> Please have the gentleness [against me and the current/future
>> readers] to answer within the context of the original writings.
> 
> I will be more careful in the future.

You can still give your answers within the main thread, thus they don't
get lost in this huge thread.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <cur8m5$g8h$1@news.freedom2surf.net>, Steve Horsley 
> <shoot@the.moon> writes
> 
>> Stephen Kellett wrote:
>>
>>>> Who's "Guido"?
>>>
>>>   LOL Falling off my chair!!!!!!
>>
>> I think the expression you are looking for is ROFL!
> 
> :-) Yes, but with that I could've been standing up before ending up on 
> the floor. I wrote it as I felt it!. Its a really good demonstration as 
> to the depth of the research performed by Illias.

I thin I understand what you mean.

"Guido van Rossum is the project's lead developer. In recognition of 
this role, he's sometimes jokingly called the Benevolent Dictator For 
Life, or BDFL; the acronym is occasionally used in python-dev postings, 
especially in a context such as "making that change will require a BDFL 
pronouncement". In theory the BDFL makes all the decisions about what 
goes in to Python and what doesn't. "
source: http://www.python.org/dev/process.html

> I'm waiting for the "Who's Matz?" comment in comp.lang.ruby....
> 
> Stephen

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Simon Brunning wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:23:08 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
>>But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
>>rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
>>foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
>>requirements.
> 
> I couldn't agree more. You need to find a community that *does* care
> about essential needs. Might I recommend Perl or Ruby?

you can review this thread.

[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Ruby Helps?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/676a2fbaf48046ac

Currently, I tend more to python, but I don't think that I can keep my 
initial enthusiasm up.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <cuq57b$j83$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
> <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
> 
>> the community do not care about essential needs and requirements.
> 
> Wrong. They do. They just don't care about *your* essential needs and 
> requirements which *you* want *others* to fulfill at *their* cost. As 
> others have said, "do some work yourself".

your accousations are false.

please review my initial message.

> Stephen

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>>One of the most funny things within open-source is that switching:
>>
>>first:
>>"we have powerfull solutions which beat this and that"
>>
>>then:
>>"hey, this is just volunteer work"
> 
> I don't see the contradiction here. It beats a great deal of commercial
> solutions in a lot of ways. But not on every single one of these. And the
> _reason_ for beating commercial software in certain aspects is exactly that
> somebody stood up and volunteered. Obviously you aren't interested in the
> more labour-intensive parts of the os-development.

Sometimes the core-team must provide infrastructure for volunteers to 
contribute (as in this MinGW case).

http://lazaridis.com/core/product/case.html

>>But if those answers above were of official nature, I must seriously
>>rethink if I can rely on _any_ system which is based on python, as the
>>foundation and the community do not care about essential needs and
>>requirements.
> 
> They might not care about _your_ perceived essential needs. But as lots of
> people use python and python based solutions with great commercial success,
> you might think of reviewing your needs more critical. After all, there is
> no _perfect_ system for all needs.

MinGW compatibility is not my need.

It is an community need.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <cuq084$r99$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
> <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
> 
>>> The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet 
>>> volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."
>>
>> this answer do not fit in most questions.
>>
>> please review them again.
> 
> There you go. Failed the test. He is an AI. A human wouldn't make this 
> mistake.

Even an simple AI would detect:

there are other reasons behind the decision to not support the MinGW 
open-source-complier directly out of the main source-code base.

> Stephen

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> "Pat" wrote:
>
> > A few things.  Primarily the fact that I'm not very experienced in
C
> > (the extensions that I need to have compiled are not written by
me).
> > Secondarily, the fact that the discussion threads I read made it
seem
> > much more complicated than what you just described.
>
> from two posts at the top of this thread:
>
>     "Writing a setup.py and running
>         python setup.py build_ext --compiler=mingw32
>     works for me *without* any more work. Things can't get much
>     simpler."
>
> and
>
>     "The mingw compiler *is* supported through distutils. distutils
>     can straightforwardly be configured to build extensions with
>     mingw."

In my defense, the threads I was referring to were prior to this thread
and did not include the two snippets that you've quoted.  Besides,
there *was* additional work that needed to be done, specifically adding
the python23.dll or python24.dll to the \mingw\lib directory, as you
mentioned in one of your previous posts.  Now, I'm not saying any of
this is rocket science, or isn't fairly easy to overcome.  But it is a
definite stumbling block for someone like myself who is less fluent
with C that you are.

> (now go read Ilias replies to those posts)

I'm not Ilias.  He'll have to fend for himself.  I just happen to have
a similar need to understand how to simplify the process of compiling
extensions for Python in light of the recent changes with Python 2.4.

> > Third, the fact that some of the code we've tried to compile didn't
compile
> > cleanly, the way your cElementTree did (but I can't remember what
exactly
> > the problem was and I didn't do the compiling).
>
> was that code tested under gcc?  code that compiles under visual C
doesn't
> necessarily compile silently under gcc, but fixing that is usually
pretty trivial
> (no worse than porting mostly portable code between platforms).

The code was not written by me.  Specifically, we are making use of
PEAK and the "unofficial" GPL port of Qt for Windows (not the upcoming
GPL version from Trolltech).  I just want it to work.  ;-)

> > And, finally, an aversion to trial-and-error solutions.  I prefer
to Google and
> > ask questions when I'm out of my element.
>
> sure didn't sound that way when you entered this thread:
>
>     "So in an effort to make some headway, I'm going to try to
summarize the
>     current state of affairs.  The bottom line is that compiling C
extension modules
>     on the Windows platform for Python 2.4 is, today, a royal pain in
the ass.
>     Period.  Here's why. /.../"

Okay, I suppose I could have done a better job phrasing that.  I should
have said something like "in my personal opinion, finding definitive,
documented information on the proper way to compile C extensions for
Python in light of the recent changes to Python 2.4 is a royal pain in
the ass."  To that I would now add "But Fredrik Lundh thinks things
can't get much simpler, and if you ask him nicely he'll show you the
error of your ways."  ;-)

> now go download MinGW and figure out what's wrong with your C code.

It isn't my C code.  I'm only including it as a dependency in my
project and trying to make the use of it by my users "simpler than
could ever be conceived by someone who thinks things can't get much
simpler".  ;-)

> if you get stuck, post the error messages, and I'm sure some
c.l.pythoneer
> will help you sort it out.

Thanks.  In all seriousness, you're posts have helped.  When we ran
into snags we tried to compile cElementTree, got a bunch of errors,
figured out we hadn't copied python23.dll into /mingw/lib, and were
able to compile everything we needed.  We still haven't tried that for
Python 2.4 yet, due to other constraints that we haven't worked out.
But I think we are getting closer and your help is greatly appreciated.
 :-)

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:

> MinGW compatibility is not my need.

Then why do you waste so much effort whining about it not being given
to you?

> It is an community need.

Based on the evidence at hand, this is a false statement.

      <mike
-- 
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>			http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> there are other reasons behind the decision to not support the MinGW 
> open-source-complier directly out of the main source-code base.
> 
Yes, of course. The reason is they are lying about their commitment to 
open source. They are currently trying to port Python to .NET, and when 
done they'll retire the current implementation and lock everyone to a 
proprietary platform. I know it's hard to believe, but there are clues...

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for 
p in 'onurb@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

bruno modulix wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>>
>> there are other reasons behind the decision to not support the MinGW 
>> open-source-complier directly out of the main source-code base.
>>
> Yes, of course. The reason is they are lying about their commitment to 
> open source. They are currently trying to port Python to .NET, and when 
> done they'll retire the current implementation and lock everyone to a 
> proprietary platform. I know it's hard to believe, but there are clues...

impressive.

but things are much simpler.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Mike Meyer wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
> 
>>MinGW compatibility is not my need.
> 
> Then why do you waste so much effort whining about it not being given
> to you?
> 
>>It is an community need.
> 
> Based on the evidence at hand, this is a false statement.
> 
>       <mike

MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.

It is an community need [at least partially]

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> bruno modulix wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> there are other reasons behind the decision to not support the MinGW 
>>> open-source-complier directly out of the main source-code base.
>>>
>> Yes, of course. The reason is they are lying about their commitment to 
>> open source. They are currently trying to port Python to .NET, and 
>> when done they'll retire the current implementation and lock everyone 
>> to a proprietary platform. I know it's hard to believe, but there are 
>> clues...
> 
> 
> impressive.
> 
> but things are much simpler.

Could you be more prolific ?

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for 
p in 'onurb@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 13:29, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Mike Meyer wrote:
> > Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
> > 
> >>MinGW compatibility is not my need.
> > 
> > Then why do you waste so much effort whining about it not being given
> > to you?
> > 
> >>It is an community need.
> > 
> > Based on the evidence at hand, this is a false statement.
> > 
> >       <mike
> 
> MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
> 
> It is an community need [at least partially]

And herein lies the beauty of the noble meritocratic free software
movement.  

If the community needs it, a member of said community has both complete
unfettered freedom and a supportive environment to make it.   Any amount
of success at such an endeavor, even a feeble failure of an attempt,
would bring kudos the hero who attempts such a feat and possibly
organize unfathomable resources in the attendance of such a lofty goal.

Make us proud Ilias.  But whatever you do, don't beg.


Adam DePrince 

Adam DePrince wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 13:29, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>Mike Meyer wrote:
>>>Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
[...]
>>MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
>>
>>It is an community need [at least partially]
> 
> And herein lies the beauty of the noble meritocratic free software
> movement.  
> 
> If the community needs it, a member of said community has both complete
> unfettered freedom and a supportive environment to make it.   

Which is this "supportive environment"?

> Any amount
> of success at such an endeavor, even a feeble failure of an attempt,
> would bring kudos the hero who attempts such a feat and possibly
> organize unfathomable resources in the attendance of such a lofty goal.
> 
> Make us proud Ilias.  But whatever you do, don't beg.

I don't beg.

If you think this, than please reread the thread (or at least the 
root-trunk)

> Adam DePrince 

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

bruno modulix wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> bruno modulix wrote:
>>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>>
>>>> there are other reasons behind the decision to not support the MinGW 
>>>> open-source-complier directly out of the main source-code base.
>>>>
>>> Yes, of course. The reason is they are lying about their commitment 
>>> to open source. They are currently trying to port Python to .NET, and 
>>> when done they'll retire the current implementation and lock everyone 
>>> to a proprietary platform. I know it's hard to believe, but there are 
>>> clues...
>>
>> impressive.
>>
>> but things are much simpler.
> 
> Could you be more prolific ?

Please explain the word "prolific".

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Mike Meyer wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
>>
>>> MinGW compatibility is not my need.
>>
>>
>> Then why do you waste so much effort whining about it not being given
>> to you?
>>
>>> It is an community need.
>>
>>
>> Based on the evidence at hand, this is a false statement.
>>
>>       <mike
> 
> 
> MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
> 
> It is an community need [at least partially]
> 

You keep using that word "community". I do not think it means what you 
think it means.

-- 
Soraia: http://www.soraia.com

[Tim Peters]
>> Well, I'm a Director of the Python Software Foundation, and my view is
>> "the more platforms the merrier".

[Ilias Lazaridis]
> I extract: "you are intrested, that the source-code-base compiles
> directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".

Sure, I'm in favor of that.  I'm also in favor of world peace, for
that matter <wink>.

> Thus you should be intrested, that existent patches are incorporated
> into the source-code-base.

That one doesn't follow.  It follows that I'd like to see existing
patches _reviewed_, but not necessarily that I'd be in favor of
incorporating them if I had time to review them myself.

> The suggested process ist: use of #defines whenever possible, to avoid
> influence on the existent behaviour of the code.

Patches are reviewed on technical merit, balancing the tradeoffs;
#defines are actually discouraged when it's possible to do a thing
without introducing platform-specific #ifdefs.  A problem is that a
patch won't get reviewed unless a volunteer does a review, and we've
got an increasing backlog of unreviewed patches because of that.  The
most effective way for a person P to get their patch reviewed now is
for P to volunteer to review 5 other patches first.  There are a few
Python developers who have promised, in return, to review P's patch
then.

>> But I'm not paid to work on Python, and I don't have time to
volunteer to help
>> MinGW along, so I don't anticipate that I'll do anything here beyond writing
>> this reply.
 
> You have done already very much.
>
> But should should take some time to evaluate community needs.

I don't know what that means, but plausible meanings sound futile.  No
matter what I think "the community" needs, it's not going to happen
unless somebody else does the work:  I can't tell anyone else what to
do.  Heck, I don't even want to.

It sounds like you might want development driven by some kind of
marketing study.  Nothing wrong with that, if so, but it's not how
open source works.  An entity like the Python Business Forum would
presumably be more open to that tack (although I doubt the PBF would
have a natural interest in MinGW).

"Minority platforms" generally don't get far unless a truly dedicated
volunteer shows up.  For example, Jason Tishler does an excellent job
on Python's Cygwin port, as does Andrew MacIntyre on OS/2 EMX, and
they've both done so for years.  Nobody asked them to do this (AFAIK),
it's more that nobody could _stop_ them from doing it. They're
motivated by love of the platforms they take care of.  In the absence
of anyone willing to pay someone else here, that's what's truly
needed.

> ...
> This effort could be driven by the intrested community members (which
> obviously exist).

Then maybe they need to be better organized, and/or more assertive in
pushing their interests.  If someone is getting left behind here, they
should speak up on the python-dev list.

....
> Now, can you please tell me the process I have to follow to suggest the
> following (to the PSF or to the programmers or to the decision takers),
> possibly to get at least a vote on it:

No such thing will happen -- forget that.  For MinGW to be supported
forever, it's necessary and sufficient that a specific person
volunteer to support MinGW forever.  If that person goes away, so does
the support they provided; it's the same story for Cygwin, and even
for Linux and native Windows.  A difference is that Linux and native
Windows attract more than enough volunteers so that ongoing support
seems statistically certain.  But, e.g., if Andrew MacIntyre went
away, I wouldn't bet on OS/2 EMX support continuing.

> "Please ensure that the source-code-base compliles directly with MinGW.
> The suggested process is to:
> 
>   * provide the infrastructure
>     (e.g. mailinglist, issue- tracking-category,... )
> 
>   * Notify the community about this subproject to channelise efforts
> 
>   * include existing MinGW specific patches
> 
>   * ensure future verificatioin of changes,
>     * optimal:    due to an automated build-system
>     * or simpler: due to community-feedback
> "

If a specific person or group wants to volunteer to do all that, year
after year, they can start doing it today.  The PSF won't do any of it
(although the PSF will fund and arrange to run the Python website, and
one way or another supply a bug tracker, source-control system, and
other infrastructure for keeping the Python project as a whole
running).

Joe Francia wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
>> MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
>>
>> It is an community need [at least partially]
> 
> You keep using that word "community". I do not think it means what you 
> think it means.

The community is everyone around python (including me at this moment).

We could call i userbase, too, but one needs not to be a actual user to 
be a community member.

what do you think about?

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 14:25, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Adam DePrince wrote:
> > On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 13:29, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> >>Mike Meyer wrote:
> >>>Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
> [...]
> >>MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
> >>
> >>It is an community need [at least partially]
> > 
> > And herein lies the beauty of the noble meritocratic free software
> > movement.  
> > 
> > If the community needs it, a member of said community has both complete
> > unfettered freedom and a supportive environment to make it.   
> 
> Which is this "supportive environment"?

You're on it.  You drive a car?  You have to treat it right to get what
you want, right?  Same here.  Ask correctly, and you will get your
answers.  

> 
> > Any amount
> > of success at such an endeavor, even a feeble failure of an attempt,
> > would bring kudos the hero who attempts such a feat and possibly
> > organize unfathomable resources in the attendance of such a lofty goal.
> > 
> > Make us proud Ilias.  But whatever you do, don't beg.
> 
> I don't beg.


Really, remember this:

>  " My questions:   a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide
> additionally a binary version, compiled with MinGW or another
> open-source compiler?"

Many languages have the notion of the "rhetorical question."   Also
known as the "loaded question."  Your statement comes across partly as a
challenge, partly as a demand.  In English, American English at least,
if you want to challenge somebody over a perceived failure ask them why
they didn't do it.  English language culutres tend to be very
metrocratic.  American history glorifies the self capable (and somewhat
violent) cowboy.  Austrians have their love of "daisy cutting."  I could
go on, but language carriers its own cultural barriers. 

You didn't intent to, but you begging.   Sure, you save some face by not
obviously groveling, but that only makes the slight worse.  Now somebody
asked that you to read
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html.   Read it in its
entirety, and come back later.  

Now I have the *real* reason that they didn't do this.  Nobody cares,
except for you.  If you care enough, make the binary package yourself
and give it to the community.  Take home the source, compile it, get it
working, and *you* can become the hero of the Python Foundation that
provides this service.  Being that you have a need, if the binaries you
want don't just appear, it can either be assumed that you don't care
enough, or have the ability to do the work yourself.

Even if you fail miserably, come back, tell us what you tried, how you
failed, and the denizens of this site will happily (try to) guide you.

Good luck getting what you want by trolling.

Adam DePrince 

On 2005-02-15, Adam DePrince <adam@cognitcorp.com> wrote:

> You didn't intent to, but you begging.   Sure, you save some face by not
> obviously groveling, but that only makes the slight worse.  Now somebody
> asked that you to read
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html.   Read it in its
> entirety, and come back later.  

The wanker already stated that the "smart questions" essay
doesn't apply to him.  I think he may be right: it only applies
to people who actually want questions answered and problems
solved. I don't think he wants to do/solve/answer anything. He
just wants to piss and moan about how nobody will jump when he
tells them to.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I always liked FLAG
                                  at               DAY!!
                               visi.com            

Adam DePrince wrote:
[...]
>>>If the community needs it, a member of said community has both complete
>>>unfettered freedom and a supportive environment to make it.   
>>
>>Which is this "supportive environment"?
> 
> You're on it.  You drive a car?  You have to treat it right to get what
> you want, right?  Same here.  Ask correctly, and you will get your
> answers.  

Your interpretation/definition of "asking correctly" is irrelevant to me.

[...]
>>>Make us proud Ilias.  But whatever you do, don't beg.
>>
>>I don't beg.
> 
> Really, remember this:
> 
>> " My questions:   a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide
>>additionally a binary version, compiled with MinGW or another
>>open-source compiler?"
> 
> Many languages have the notion of the "rhetorical question."   Also
[...] - (faulty interpretations, suggesting processing model)

no comments.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:

> Mike Meyer wrote:
>>>It is an community need.
>> Based on the evidence at hand, this is a false statement.
> It is an community need [at least partially]

Repeating a falsehood will not make it true.

Can you offer anything besides your own whining to back this claim up?

    <mike
-- 
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>			http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:

> Joe Francia wrote:
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> [...]
>>> MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
>>>
>>> It is an community need [at least partially]
>> You keep using that word "community". I do not think it means what
>> you think it means.
>
> The community is everyone around python (including me at this moment).

Then clearly, MingW is *not* a community need. I'm around Python. That
makes me part of the community by your definition. I have no need for
MingW (in fact, it doesn't run on anything I do development
on). Ergo, MingW is not a community need.

     <mike
-- 
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>			http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

Mike Meyer wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
> 
>>Mike Meyer wrote:
>>
>>>>It is an community need.
>>>
>>>Based on the evidence at hand, this is a false statement.
>>
>>It is an community need [at least partially]
> 
> Repeating a falsehood will not make it true.
> 
> Can you offer anything besides your own whining to back this claim up?

please review my initial posting.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Mike Meyer wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
>>Joe Francia wrote:
>>>Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
>>>>
>>>>It is an community need [at least partially]
>>>
>>>You keep using that word "community". I do not think it means what
>>>you think it means.
>>
>>The community is everyone around python (including me at this moment).
> 
> Then clearly, MingW is *not* a community need. I'm around Python. That
> makes me part of the community by your definition. I have no need for
> MingW (in fact, it doesn't run on anything I do development
> on). Ergo, MingW is not a community need.

I see.

Time to close this thread.

Nothing essential anymore.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Tim Peters wrote:
[...] - (thorough comments)

Thank you very much for your thoroug comments.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

I'm 'closing' this thread now [means that I do possibly not respond 
anymore to messages].

Thank you for your time and effort.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Joe Francia wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
>>>
>>> It is an community need [at least partially]
>>
>>
>> You keep using that word "community". I do not think it means what you 
>> think it means.
> 
> 
> The community is everyone around python (including me at this moment).
> 
> We could call i userbase, too, but one needs not to be a actual user to 
> be a community member.
> 

Well, I'm glad you cleared that up (even though you clearly missed the 
"Princess Bride" reference).  As a member *and* user in the Python 
community, I hereby declare MinGW as unnecessary to the successful 
continuation of Python.  When I need to compile extensions on win32, 
VS.NET works splendidly.  (And gcc covers my FreeBSD & Linux extension 
compiling needs - I have no unusual demands or expectations that the 
Python "community" will support, say, the Intel C compiler on those 
platforms).

 > what do you think about?

Oh, different things at different times, but it's usually not about 
MinGW support for Python.

-- 
Soraia: http://www.soraia.com

In his 15 post on this thread within 5 hours,
"Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message
> Please explain the word "prolific".

On 2005-02-15, bruno modulix <onurb@xiludom.gro> wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
>> impressive.
>> 
>> but things are much simpler.
>
> Could you be more prolific ?

Good god, let's hope not!

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm working under
                                  at               the direct orders of WAYNE
                               visi.com            NEWTON to deport consenting
                                                   adults!

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> Adam DePrince wrote:
> [...]
>> You're on it.  You drive a car?  You have to treat it right to get what
>> you want, right?  Same here.  Ask correctly, and you will get your
>> answers.  
> 
> Your interpretation/definition of "asking correctly" is irrelevant to me.


"Interpretation is irrelevant.  Logic is irrelevant.  You will be 
assimilated."

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International

Ilias Lazaridis a �crit :
> bruno modulix wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
(snip)
>>>
>>> impressive.
>>>
>>> but things are much simpler.
>>
>> Could you be more prolific ?

> Please explain the word "prolific".
> 
Say more

In message <cutk8f$qu2$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
<ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
>The community is everyone around python (including me at this moment).

Based on the communities response to you (and the similar response you 
are getting in c.l.ruby) you are not a member of either community as you 
continue to deliberately ignore the accepted norms of interaction with 
the community. I'll list them here for you (again).

1) Do some research yourself (i.e try to answer your own questions)
2) When you have problems tell the group what you did, what the results 
were and what the problem was.
3) If the community thinks you have done 1 and 2 you will most likely 
get a helpful response. Some people will be generous and help you 
anyway.
After a while people will realise you have no interest in doing any work 
yourself and give you a hard time (the c.l.ruby group appear to have hit 
this threshold today) until you mend your ways. Do 1 and 2 and you'll 
get your questions answered much faster than your current approach.

The most amazing thing is the number of times you've been told this by 
so many different people and so many different newsgroups and yet you 
*still don't get it*.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

In message <cutf1h$576$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
<ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
>MinGW compatibility is not [only] my need.
>
>It is an community need [at least partially]

Clearly not. If it was, using your logic, it would already exist.
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 17:24, Jeff Shannon wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> > Adam DePrince wrote:
> > [...]
> >> You're on it.  You drive a car?  You have to treat it right to get what
> >> you want, right?  Same here.  Ask correctly, and you will get your
> >> answers.  
> > Your interpretation/definition of "asking correctly" is irrelevant to me.
> "Interpretation is irrelevant.  Logic is irrelevant.  You will be 
> assimilated."

Oy!  Logic is relevant ... let me explain.

Let this be a gentle reminder to all, the primary hazard of generosity
is that the recipient will lack a corresponding sense of appreciation. 
I've heard others around here say that they will risk feeding a troll on
the off chance that they may actually enlighten someone.  

Further investigation (http://lazaridis.com/core/project/email) suggests
that it is the Python community that is at fault.  There is a scepter
haunting the python-list.  Ilias, we misjudged you and mistook your
hyper efficiency and superior cognitive capacity for rudeness.  As I
reflect upon this exchange I now see the inefficient absence of
terseness and lack of condescending ridicule.  I call forth on all
Pythoners to adopt your style of thought, learn to spell Nietzsche, put
aside their personal consideration and accept their subservience to the
common good (as defined by Ilias) and the nubile newbie.  Think of what
we could acheive.  We could be just like gwbasic!  As hip and modern as
the Kondrad Zuse's Z3.  Pythoner's Unite!

Ilias, I ceed.  You are a superman in the most misinterpreted sense of
the word.  I invoke Gershwin's law and end this thread.   May I bear
your children?


Adam DePrince 

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:

> Mike Meyer wrote:
>> Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
>>
>>>Mike Meyer wrote:
>>>
>>>>>It is an community need.
>>>>
>>>>Based on the evidence at hand, this is a false statement.
>>>
>>>It is an community need [at least partially]
>> Repeating a falsehood will not make it true.
>> Can you offer anything besides your own whining to back this claim
>> up?
>
> please review my initial posting.

Done. Now answer the question.

      <mike
-- 
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>			http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

Michael Hoffman schrieb:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> But don't act like the volunteers who develop Python owe you a version
> of Python that runs out of the box on MinGW. They don't, anymore than you
> owe *me* a version of Python that runs out of the box on MinGW.

Please, leave him alone. When he posted here first his tone made me
suspicious and I did some searching. Replies like yours are exactly
what he wants. He is here to fight and to waste your time. But if
you enjoy this ... go ahead ;) I don't so this will be my only post
in this thread.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ilias Lazaridis schrieb:
> I'm a newcomer to python:

Sorry, I'm breaking my promise to post only once to this thread. But
I've found the ultimate recipe to resolve all issues of this and
other similar threads:

Please read

http://nobelprize.org/medicine/educational/pavlov/

and then do something useful :)

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Peter Maas" <peter@somewhere.com> wrote in message 
news:cuv1st$6um$1@swifty.westend.com...
> http://nobelprize.org/medicine/educational/pavlov/
>
> and then do something useful :)

Thanks.  I showed this to my daughter, who enjoyed the game, and explained 
your point re Pavlov posting, and about Pavlov advertising, etc.  She then 
went on to some of the other games.  A good home-learning tool.

Terry J. Reedy

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:49:38 +0000, Stephen Kellett wrote:
> Incorrect analysis. This thread proves that you have no concept of how 
> to interact with the community. If you had done what many people asked 
> you to do, which is do some work yourself, then ask questions about the 
> few answers you didn't discover yourself, you would have got lots of 
> helpful answers. You were told this many times by many people. Also on 
> the odd occasion someone did proffer some on-topic advice, sometimes in 
> long articles that must have taken some time to produce you'd dismiss 
> the article with "It is not on topic, I have not read it". How could you 
> know if it is not on topic if you don't read it? Apart from the gross 
> rudeness in such an attitude it demonstrates your arrogance, selfishness 
> and utter contempt for those replying to you.

This is why I bailed on him, especially after the troll warning which
is now fully justified in my mind. I'm 99% positive that I could ship him
source code that meets every single one of his demands, and he'd *still*
be bitching and posting, because he *would not realize it*, because of
course he'd still have to read docs and learn how to use it.

Moderately on topic (not Python, but programming at least): The other day
I was talking to someone and I commented on how odd it is to write a
library, and *still* have to learn how to use it correctly. As the
author, at least I can change it as I learn more, but even so, I have to
learn how to use it; even as the author I am not imbued magically with
expert status. 

I actually think that 95% of what Ilias is claiming to be looking for is
there, packaged up and almost ready to go. But he will never realize that,
since we can't jump him to expert status in a four-line newsgroup post,
so, *shrug*, he loses I guess. 

Joe Francia wrote:
[...]

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f2ae9cdbe16676d1

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Stephen Kellett wrote:
[...]

closing thread
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f2ae9cdbe16676d1

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Mike Meyer wrote:
[...]

closing thread
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f2ae9cdbe16676d1

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
[...]

closing thread
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f2ae9cdbe16676d1

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Peter Maas wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis schrieb:
> 
>> I'm a newcomer to python:
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'm breaking my promise to post only once to this thread.

I'm breaking my 'promise' to close this thread.

> But I've found the ultimate recipe to resolve all issues of this and 
> other similar threads:
> 
> Please read
> 
> http://nobelprize.org/medicine/educational/pavlov/
> 
> and then do something useful :)

I don't think that this would change the disastrous communication 
behaviour of the python community [1]. For sure it has not changed yours.

And I don't think that this would change anything on the huge amounts of 
off-topic posts [including yours, and of course my reply to yours].

This thread proofs simply the inability of this community [1] to focus 
on a simple essence.

-

[1] community: the publically writing, within c.l.python

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

In message <cv2m54$hnf$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
<ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
>This thread proofs simply the inability of this community [1] to focus 
>on a simple essence.

Incorrect analysis. This thread proves that you have no concept of how 
to interact with the community. If you had done what many people asked 
you to do, which is do some work yourself, then ask questions about the 
few answers you didn't discover yourself, you would have got lots of 
helpful answers. You were told this many times by many people. Also on 
the odd occasion someone did proffer some on-topic advice, sometimes in 
long articles that must have taken some time to produce you'd dismiss 
the article with "It is not on topic, I have not read it". How could you 
know if it is not on topic if you don't read it? Apart from the gross 
rudeness in such an attitude it demonstrates your arrogance, selfishness 
and utter contempt for those replying to you.

And then you have the gall to blame your failure on others...

Next you'll be telling me the world is flat and held up by an infinite 
array of tortoises.
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:

> This thread proofs simply the inability of this community [1] to focus
> on a simple essence.

Many communities extend a sort of "provisional membership" to new
arrivals, and grant newcomers the same respect and courtesy that
established members recieve. I make this distinction to point out that
you are not a member of the Python community simply because you posted
in a community newsgroup, but a newcomer with provisional status.
I don't speak for the Python community, but from the consistent nature
of the responses to your posts, it looks like your provisional
membership has been revoked.

Secondly, when two parties disagree about matters of etiquette, the
party that is new to the community is almost certainly the one who has
erred.

I think you could undo the damage you have done by spending some time
here, and learning that this is a community of intelligent, friendly,
humorous, and insightful people. Come with suggestions, and not
demands. Show us how you would like a community to behave, instead of
acting like we owe you something.

That's how we make the world a better place.

Nick

-- 
#  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')

--J4XPiPrVK1ev6Sgr
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 06:49:38PM +0000, Stephen Kellett wrote:
> Next you'll be telling me the world is flat and held up by an infinite=20
> array of tortoises.

no, of course not! It's an iterator.

--=20
John Lenton (john@grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones.

--J4XPiPrVK1ev6Sgr
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Content-Description: Digital signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux)

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GZni2Vxacm3583bTa6vfZ0k=
=+y8J
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--J4XPiPrVK1ev6Sgr--

In message <pan.2005.02.17.14.55.29.665531@jerf.org>, Jeremy Bowers 
<jerf@jerf.org> writes
>course he'd still have to read docs and learn how to use it.

Yeah - one guy in c.l.ruby wrote a reply that must have taken minimum 30 
minutes. Really detailed. Lots of people thanked him for it. Ilias 
dissed the whole post with "I have not read it, it is not on topic".

>Moderately on topic (not Python, but programming at least): The other day
>I was talking to someone and I commented on how odd it is to write a
>library, and *still* have to learn how to use it correctly. As the
>author, at least I can change it as I learn more, but even so, I have to
>learn how to use it; even as the author I am not imbued magically with
>expert status.

Indeed. I often find myself going back to a library I wrote some time 
ago which I haven't had to interact with and then looking for the 
existing code that interacts with the library to see how best to use it. 
I think its a bit like going back to a book after a few years. Its worth 
returning because you will have forgotten some of what was so good first 
time around.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Terry Reedy schrieb:
> "Peter Maas" <peter@somewhere.com> wrote in message 
> news:cuv1st$6um$1@swifty.westend.com...
> 
>>http://nobelprize.org/medicine/educational/pavlov/
>>
>>and then do something useful :)
> 
> 
> Thanks.  I showed this to my daughter, who enjoyed the game, and explained 
> your point re Pavlov posting, and about Pavlov advertising, etc. 

Fine that at least one person benefitted from my post :) I came across
this when I browsed through the Lazaridis thread which was - if for
nothing else - good for some laughs.

But at the same time I felt uncomfortable to see how many bright
Pythoneers cared to give well thought, helpful and friendly answers
to somebody who was acting unpolite and kind of stupid, even mechanical.
This newsgroup is used to be helpful to newbies and Lazaridis was
ringing the newbie bell.

Perhaps we will soon see a triumphant publication with the title
"Ilias Lazaridis - the ELIZA of the 21st century. A milestone towards
the perfect Turing test" ;)

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <cv2m54$hnf$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Ilias Lazaridis 
> <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
> 
>> This thread proofs simply the inability of this community [1] to focus 
>> on a simple essence.
> 
> 
> Incorrect analysis. This thread proves that you have no concept of how 
> to interact with the community. If you had done what many people asked 
> you to do, which is do some work yourself, then ask questions about the 
> few answers you didn't discover yourself, you would have got lots of 
> helpful answers. You were told this many times by many people. Also on 
> the odd occasion someone did proffer some on-topic advice, sometimes in 
> long articles that must have taken some time to produce you'd dismiss 
> the article with "It is not on topic, I have not read it". How could you 
> know if it is not on topic if you don't read it? Apart from the gross 
> rudeness in such an attitude it demonstrates your arrogance, selfishness 
> and utter contempt for those replying to you.
> 
> And then you have the gall to blame your failure on others...
> 
> Next you'll be telling me the world is flat and held up by an infinite 
> array of tortoises.

Actually I suspect Ilias is trying to carry out his own sort of 'survey' 
on how various communities respond to questions asked in the kind of way 
he asked them ... See his web site.

David

In message <cv49qp$h7f$1@swifty.westend.com>, Peter Maas 
<peter@somewhere.com> writes
>Perhaps we will soon see a triumphant publication with the title
>"Ilias Lazaridis - the ELIZA of the 21st century. A milestone towards
>the perfect Turing test" ;)

I've got to admit that for a large proportion of the time interacting 
(if that is the word) with him I thought I was the butt of a clever AI 
joke. I've finally come to the conclusion that there is a real, if 
seriously dysfunctional, person behind the communications.

If I knew more about the AI subject arena AND had more time on my hands 
I'd try to write an IlliasBot to see how far I got before I was found 
out. But I'm way too busy, so someone else will have to do it. I just 
hope they do it in Python or Ruby so that these languages get more 
publicity.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

In message <cv4bjd$m15$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>, David Fraser 
<davidf@sjsoft.com> writes
>Actually I suspect Ilias is trying to carry out his own sort of 
>'survey' on how various communities respond to questions asked in the 
>kind of way he asked them ... See his web site.

Its as unreadable as his network news postings. One of the first things 
I did was check out his website. I didn't gain a lot as it is written in 
his typical automaton style. It actively discourages you from engaging. 
Thats quite an achievement for a static piece of text.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Peter Maas:

> Perhaps we will soon see a triumphant publication with the title
> "Ilias Lazaridis - the ELIZA of the 21st century. A milestone towards
> the perfect Turing test" ;)

   <ILI>as la<ZA>ridis

   Neil

[this is a summary of a private conversation that I had with the 
developer of the phMinGW. It contains just my comments. I've send 
additionally a CC via email (private-to-public switch notification)]

-

A.B., Khalid wrote:
[...]

Khalid,

first of all I like to thank you for the efforts you have taken to
provide pyMinGW to the python community.

I would like to assist you with your efforts, see below.

> If passing all the regression tests of the official Windows Python 
> distribution is an indication of the quality of patch-- and pyMinGW 
> patched and MinGW built Python does pass all of them-- then one is 
> inclined to say that pyMinGW is a good patch.


=> {pyMinGW is a good patch}

> The reason why it is, on the other hand, not included in the official
>  distribution is threefold.
> 
> 1. Contrary to what many might imagine, I don't think enough people
> use MinGW to frankly justify any extra effort beyond pyMinGW.


The defined "extra effort" is the effort to provide the patches for the
main source-code base?

If you can send me an email of how to do this, I would take this effort.

of course I must first know, that the python-team would accept those
patches (technical applicability provided).

Thus this can wait, until an official response.

> 2. Given number 1 above, this patch, I believe, and I could be 
> mistaken, must not rush to be included in Python's core;


Of course you are right.

> people like your esteemed person should test it (note that it is
> designed not to interfere with your trusted and working official
> Python, if any);


=> {trusted and working official python}

: it is

> only when enough people do such testing that there will be a case for
>  it to be included in Python's core.


I agree with you.

If you are willing to extend your project, thus the intrested community
members can collaborate, I would like to assist you to do so.

I would try to take away all setup efforts from you.

> 3. Finally. there is nothing wrong with third-party patches if they
> get the job done, which I believe is the case with pyMinGW.


You have stated above: "trusted and working official python"

The main goal would be, to get a "trusted and working official python"
based on MinGW, _within_ the official source-code-base.

The secondary goal would be, to get a "trusted and working official
python" based on MinGW, _with_ a very close to the official
source-code-base (possibly with just one #define).

-

Please contact me vial email if you are intrested.

> Regards, Khalid


Best Regards,

ILIAS LAZARIDIS

-
-
-

After some comments, [which did not show to me an intrested of making 
the above happen (which is fully in the developers rights)], I've 
simplified my suggestions in the following message:


"
thank you for your comments.

I will express my suggestion more practically

   * as a first step, I would setup a pyMinGW mailinglist
     * intrested people can come together an communicate
   * as a second step, I would setup an SVN
     * intrested projects could get your patch via SVN
   * as a third step, I would find intrested contributors
     * which would help testing
     * which would help you with coding

All this could happen without (or with very low) efforts for you.
"

-
-
-

I got no answer.

-
-
-

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

It looks like here the only worth words are yours. Didn't
you close this thread?

I will refresh your mind with your own unpolite way:

"""
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]

closing thread
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f2ae9cdbe16676d1
"""

Anyway, I will add some comments:

> The defined "extra effort" is the effort to provide the patches for the
> main source-code base?
> 
> If you can send me an email of how to do this, I would take this effort.
Good for you.

> of course I must first know, that the python-team would accept those
> patches (technical applicability provided).
There is no guaranty. Did you forget the reply from Tim Peters:

 > [...] A problem is that a
 > patch won't get reviewed unless a volunteer does a review, and we've
 > got an increasing backlog of unreviewed patches because of that.  The
 > most effective way for a person P to get their patch reviewed now is
 > for P to volunteer to review 5 other patches first.  There are a few
 > Python developers who have promised, in return, to review P's patch
 > then.
So, you will have to review some patches first.


 >Ilias> Now, can you please tell me the process I have to follow to
 >Ilias> suggest the following (to the PSF or to the programmers or to
 >Ilias> the decision takers),possibly to get at least a vote on it:

 >Tim> No such thing will happen -- forget that.  For MinGW to be
 >Tim> supported forever, it's necessary and sufficient that a specific
 >Tim> person volunteer to support MinGW forever.  If that person goes
 >Tim> away, so does the support they provided; it's the same story for
 >Tim> Cygwin, and even for Linux and native Windows.
So, it is not just making the patch. You will have to compromise to
support it and not just go away.


Regards,
Josef

Josef Meile wrote:
> It looks like here the only worth words are yours. Didn't
> you close this thread?

yes, but when reviewing again I found this lack [created by myself due 
to private conversation].

> I will refresh your mind with your own unpolite way:

I find this very polite [to notify conversation partners instead of 
letting them wait for an answer].

> """
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> [...]
> 
> closing thread
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f2ae9cdbe16676d1
> """
> 
> Anyway, I will add some comments:
[...]

The first step is to make a pyMinGW project.

If one is intrested, he has possibly more luck [than I had] to convince 
the author of pyMinGW.

Good luck.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Robert Kern schreef:

> And yet there is not one company that has someone devoted full-time to 
> developing Python.

Except for 'future Python' aka PyPy...
<http://codespeak.net/pipermail/pypy-dev/2004q4/001696.html>

   :)

-- 
JanC

"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> The first step is to make a pyMinGW project.
>

You are mistaken. The first steps are the following:

1) Realizing that a project _must_ start not because you want it to,
but because those who are willing to work on it think it is worth the
extra effort for it to.

2) Realizing that what best scratches your back is non other than your
own nails. No one is going to do any extra effort for you (or anyone
else for that matter) if they have some good reason not to. And both
the author of pyMinGW and Tim have already given enough reasons for
those who wondered why there is no official Python support for the
MinGW compiler earlier in this very thread.

3) Realizing that there _is_ already a project called pyMinGW! That it
does not fit your requirements-- whatever these maybe-- is an
altogether different issue. The fact of the matter remains that a
project _does_ exist, one which people (including myself) do in fact
use; and because it does exist there is no reason to "make" it.


> If one is intrested, he has possibly more luck [than I had] to
convince
> the author of pyMinGW.

Of what? To make pyMinGW? To do extra work to your liking that was
shown to be nnnecessary especially when pyMinGW can currently get the
job done? Let alone the free compiler available for all to use?

Whether you realize it or not, those who are interested will download
pyMinGW and will test it and they will use it if they find it useful.
It is their choice to do so. It is apparent that not only have you not
done that, but that you also seem not interested in doing so. That too
is your choice. I suspect that no one is going to lose sleep over
either choice. I hope I don't come across as condescending, which I
hope I never am, but I know I won't. Life goes on.


Khalid



--
pyMinGW:
http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:

> Duncan Booth wrote:
[...]

> > It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL
> > spreading to other open source software with which it is linked.
> > "In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits
> > programs whose sources are distributed under a license that complies
> > with the Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a
> > without libcygwin.a itself causing the resulting program to be
> > covered by the GNU GPL."
> 
> If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software with
> the cygwin toolset.

You cannot produce proprietary software with that toolset.

-- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.

A.B., Khalid wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>>The first step is to make a pyMinGW project.
> 
> You are mistaken. The first steps are the following:
[...] - (nonrelevant comments)

> 3) Realizing that there _is_ already a project called pyMinGW! That it
> does not fit your requirements-- whatever these maybe-- is an
> altogether different issue. The fact of the matter remains that a
> project _does_ exist, one which people (including myself) do in fact
> use; and because it does exist there is no reason to "make" it.
[...]

I've already understood your viewpoint.

I've realized, that there is a single-person-centric project
"pyMinGW" which does not encourage collaboration (due to missing public 
resources like mailinglist).

My requirements about an open-source project (or sub-project) are very 
simple:
   a communication resource,
   a code-repository,
   an issue-tracking-system.

I've suggested you to transform your personal project to a collaborative 
project, starting with an dedicated mailinglist etc.:

"
thank you for your comments.

I will express my suggestion more practically

   * as a first step, I would setup a pyMinGW mailinglist
     * intrested people can come together an communicate
   * as a second step, I would setup an SVN
     * intrested projects could get your patch via SVN
   * as a third step, I would find intrested contributors
     * which would help testing
     * which would help you with coding

All this could happen without (or with very low) efforts for you.
"

-

You have the right to refuse this.

I (and any other reader) have the right to derive our conclusions about 
you and the reasons that you refuse a _real_ collaborative work.

..

> --
> pyMinGW:
> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> My questions:

It appears that nobody has answered the questions, yet.

> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary 
> version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?

We don't have the resources to do that.

> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python 
> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?

In the past, we did not do that because we did not know how to do it.
With Python 2.4.1, we now had a contribution that should allow direct
compilation of extensions using MingW.

> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the python 
> source code base?
> 
> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

I believe this was because it was never contributed to Python.

> d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be able 
> to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions with 
> MinGW"?
> 
> http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/Notes.html

No. These instructions are outdated.

> e) Is there any official statement available regarding the msvcr71.dll 
> and other MS licensing issues?
> 
> [see several threads "[Python-Dev] Is msvcr71.dll re-redistributable?"]
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-February/thread.html

No, there isn't.

> f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales 
> available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported, although 
> parts of the community obviously like to use it?
> 
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dc3474e6c8053336

The official statement is that the MingW compiler is supported, indeed.

Regards,
Martin

Martin v. L�wis wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> My questions:
> 
> It appears that nobody has answered the questions, yet.
> 
>> a) Why does the Python Foundation not provide additionally a binary 
>> version, compiled with MinGW or another open-source compiler?
> 
> We don't have the resources to do that.

Should a professional developer take python serious?

I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a 
multi-target automated-build-process?

[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They 
could be added/managed/maintained by community members]

>> b) Why does the Python Foundation not ensure, that the python 
>> source-code is directly compilable with MinGW?
> 
> In the past, we did not do that because we did not know how to do it.
> With Python 2.4.1, we now had a contribution that should allow direct
> compilation of extensions using MingW.

I'm refering to compile the main python source-code with MigGW.

[As a result, compilation of extensions under MinGW becomes trivial]

>> c) Why are the following efforts not _directly_ included in the python 
>> source code base?
>>
>> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html
> 
> I believe this was because it was never contributed to Python.

ok

You should possibly engourage the author to create an collaborative project.

>> d) Is it really neccessary that I dive into such adventures, to be 
>> able to do the most natural thing like: "developing python extensions 
>> with MinGW"?
>>
>> http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/Notes.html
> 
> No. These instructions are outdated.

ok

[the author has placed a remark now, avoiding this way further 
missunderstandings.]

>> e) Is there any official statement available regarding the msvcr71.dll 
>> and other MS licensing issues?
>>
>> [see several threads "[Python-Dev] Is msvcr71.dll re-redistributable?"]
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-February/thread.html
> 
> No, there isn't.

Seeing the discussions which raise around this topic, I think the 
foundation should provide an official statement [e.g. contact MS to get 
an official statement].

>> f) Are there any official (Python Foundation) statements / rationales 
>> available, which explain why the MinGW compiler is unsupported, 
>> although parts of the community obviously like to use it?
>>
>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dc3474e6c8053336
> 
> The official statement is that the MingW compiler is supported, indeed.

Thus the official statement should be possibly corrected.

  * Compiling Python source-code under MinGW is not directly supported.
  * Compliling extensions under MinGW leads possibly to problems.

> Regards,
> Martin

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

> Should a professional developer take python serious?

Unnecessary and deliberately provoking question - python is taken seriously,
e.g. by multi-billion dollar companies like google and zope. You OTH have
provided no evidence so far that you can be taken seriously as a developer
of whatever kind - neither professional nor hobbyist. So one has to
question the relevance of your demands.
 
> I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a
> multi-target automated-build-process?

Plain wrong. The team does very well manage that process - for a large
variety of platforms and compilers. Just not the compiler you perceive as
being a necessity. But that dead horse has been beaten enough already.


-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

> Unnecessary and deliberately provoking question - python is taken
> seriously, e.g. by multi-billion dollar companies like google and zope.

Of course zope corporation is not amongst the multi-billion dollar companies
- by now. But who knows :)

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>>Should a professional developer take python serious?
[...] - (ungentle babbling after disrupting coherence of writings)

"
Should a professional developer take python serious?

I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a 
multi-target automated-build-process?

[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They 
could be added/managed/maintained by community members]
"

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>>>Should a professional developer take python serious?
> [...] - (ungentle babbling after disrupting coherence of writings)

And that from you.... *lol*

> I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a
> multi-target automated-build-process?

Repeating nonsense doesn't increase it's validity. Python makes use of
autoconf/automake to support a wide range of platforms and compilers. As
you obviously haven't heard of these and refuse to google, I was so kind to
research the respective links to the tools:

http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/
http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/

http://www.amath.washington.edu/~lf/tutorials/autoconf/

Enjoy the read.
 
> [targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They
> could be added/managed/maintained by community members]

You already found the mingw-patch for building python. It is
added/managed/maintained by community members.

Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you planning to
write? And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your
life? 

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>>>>Should a professional developer take python serious?
>>[...] - (ungentle babbling after disrupting coherence of writings)
> 
> And that from you.... *lol*

Of course.

I respect the "coherence of writings" of my conversation partners.

[If they are in-topic / in-context]

>>I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a
>>multi-target automated-build-process?
> 
> Repeating nonsense doesn't increase it's validity. Python makes use of
[...] - (babbling, gentle links)

Thank you for the links.

They are irrelevant for me.

But other readers for sure will enjoy.

-

The automated-build-process-system should allow community-members to add 
their targets into an special "incubation section", which does not in 
any way affect the "main section" (which contains the official 
production targets).

If an "incubation section" target proves over time as stable and 
supported, it is moved to the "official-auto-build".

>>[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They
>>could be added/managed/maintained by community members]
> 
> You already found the mingw-patch for building python. It is
> added/managed/maintained by community members.

This is a one-man-show, which does not invite to open collaboration 
(feedback is requested to closed email):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/98fa42dabff68db2

python [foundation, crew, dictator, ...] should engourage open 
collaboration, should engourage _collaboration_.

> Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you planning to
> write? 

I estimate 10 to 100, depending on abstractional capabilities of the 
extension system.

> And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your life? 

0 (zero).

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> Should a professional developer take python serious?

yes.

</F> 

> Thank you for the links.
> 
> They are irrelevant for me.

As usual. 

>> Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you planning to
>> write?
> 
> I estimate 10 to 100, depending on abstractional capabilities of the
> extension system.
> 
>> And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your life?
> 
> 0 (zero).

Awesome. Without any lines of code written, you have already identified the
areas where python lacks features that have to be overcome with C-written
extensions. As usual, I stand with my mouth agape over your near-psychic
abilities to analyze even the complexest matters without any actual
fiddling with the nitty gritty details. 

The day where you team up with Uri Geller - who will make even the worst
code running by just putting a printout of it on top of an image of the
master himself - is to be feared by all of us humble developers who
actually _deal_ with problems.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>>Thank you for the links.
>>
>>They are irrelevant for me.
> 
> As usual. 

sorry.

>>>Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you planning to
>>>write?
>>
>>I estimate 10 to 100, depending on abstractional capabilities of the
>>extension system.
>>
>>>And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your life?
>>
>>0 (zero).
> 
> Awesome. Without any lines of code written, you have already identified the
> areas where python lacks features that have to be overcome with C-written
> extensions. 

writing code is not the only way.

> As usual, I stand with my mouth agape over your near-psychic
> abilities to analyze even the complexest matters without any actual
> fiddling with the nitty gritty details. 

Nothing special.

Abstraction, Generalization, Inhibition.

> The day where you team up with Uri Geller - who will make even the worst
> code running by just putting a printout of it on top of an image of the
> master himself - is to be feared by all of us humble developers who
> actually _deal_ with problems.

Don't worry.

Mr. Geller will be shortly hired by Sun Microsystems.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> A.B., Khalid wrote:
> > Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> >
> >>The first step is to make a pyMinGW project.
> >
> > You are mistaken. The first steps are the following:
> [...] - (nonrelevant comments)
>
> > 3) Realizing that there _is_ already a project called pyMinGW! That
it
> > does not fit your requirements-- whatever these maybe-- is an
> > altogether different issue. The fact of the matter remains that a
> > project _does_ exist, one which people (including myself) do in
fact
> > use; and because it does exist there is no reason to "make" it.
> [...]
>
> I've already understood your viewpoint.


You just say that you do. Your repeating the same arguments using the
same logic testifies that you don't.


>
> My requirements about an open-source project (or sub-project) are
very
> simple:


Your "requirements" are just what they are, _your_ requirements. And
since they are so, maybe you'd like to address them yourself instead of
continuing to complain how "your requirements" (simple or otherwise)
are not being met and that hence the author of this project is this,
and/or the entire language is that. Enough said here.


> You have the right to refuse this.
>
> I (and any other reader) have the right to derive our conclusions
about
> you and the reasons that you refuse a _real_ collaborative work.


Of course I have the right to do what I like (and as regards pyMinGW
this was explained earlier in this thread); your mere pronunciation
that I have that right neither subtracts nor adds to it one iota. And
it seems to me that the community has indeed reached some conclusions
which any reasonable person with a fair grasp of English can quickly
identify from the nature of their responses to you, here and elsewhere.


> > You already found the mingw-patch for building python. It is
> > added/managed/maintained by community members.
>
> This is a one-man-show, which does not invite to open collaboration
> (feedback is requested to closed email):
>
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/98fa42dabff68db2
>
> python [foundation, crew, dictator, ...] should engourage open
> collaboration, should engourage _collaboration_.


Oh well, I hope it would not come as a shock to you that pyMinGW does
allow collaboration. Here is a quote from the pyMinGW-24 changes
document:

	---------------------
	pyMinGW-24-0064: Dec 11th, 2004
	---------------------
	[1] Included \PC\pyconfig.h in the Python24.iss. Thanks to Matthias
	    Gondan for the report and the fix.
	Quoted from http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW-24.html


So you see, the collaborative effort is there. It is just not
responding to "your requirements" to your liking that is bothering you!
Now if you want to continue complaining about how "your requirements"
are not being met, by volunteers who make their work available for free
in their spare time, to your liking, go ahead. Knock yourself out.


Khalid



--
pyMinGW:
http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>
> >> Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you
planning to
> >> write?
> >
> > I estimate 10 to 100, depending on abstractional capabilities of
the
> > extension system.
> >
> >> And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your
life?
> >
> > 0 (zero).
>
> Awesome. Without any lines of code written, you have already
identified the
> areas where python lacks features that have to be overcome with
C-written
> extensions. As usual, I stand with my mouth agape over your
near-psychic
> abilities to analyze even the complexest matters without any actual
> fiddling with the nitty gritty details.

If you put yourself into the shoes of someone who decides to use a
Python product that requires compiling, and that product contains C
extensions that also need compiling, you'll see that it doesn't matter
whether or not that individual has actually written a single line of
Python themselves.  If the compiling process is not easy, then that
user will be forced to fiddle with nitty gritty details about which
they'd rather remain ignorant.

On Linux, I've installed and used/compiled products in a variety of
languages in which I've never written a single line of source code
myself.  In most cases the process works fairly well.  When it doesn't,
I'm forced to fiddle with nitty gritty details about which I'd rather
remain ignorant.  The result is usually a good deal of frustration and
anger on my part.

On Windows, most users are used to installing precompiled binary
packages, rather than compiling from source.  When you do have to
compile from source, it often requires you to fiddle with nitty gritty
details about which you'd rather remain ignorant.  The less fiddling
required, the happier the user will be, and the easier it will be for
that product to get adopted on that platform.  No psychic abilities are
required.  No Python abilities are required, either, for that matter.
;-)

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Should a professional developer take python serious?

Yes.

Regards,
Martin

A.B., Khalid wrote:
[...] - (comments)

I've just overflown your comments for a few seconds.

And I got my confirmations.

Thank you for your time.

> --
> pyMinGW:
> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>>Should a professional developer take python serious?
> 
> yes.

Should I take answers serious?

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

"
Should a professional developer take python serious?

I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a 
multi-target automated-build-process?

[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They 
could be added/managed/maintained by community members]
"

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Martin v. L�wis wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> Should a professional developer take python serious?
> 
> Yes.

Should I take answers serious?

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

"
Should a professional developer take python serious?

I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a 
multi-target automated-build-process?

[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They 
could be added/managed/maintained by community members]
"

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> Should a professional developer take python serious?

yes.

</F> 

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>>>Should a professional developer take python serious?
>>
>> yes.
>
> Should I take answers serious?

yes.

> Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

coherence of writings?

</F> 

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> 
>>>>Should a professional developer take python serious?
>>>
>>>yes.
>>
>>Should I take answers serious?
> 
> 
> yes.
> 
> 
>>Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?
> 
> 
> coherence of writings?

Ironic, is it not?

I think he's referring to the fact that you snipped some of the email 
you were replying to.

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Should I take answers serious?

If not, why are you asking questions in the first place?

> Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

Coherence of writings?

> Should a professional developer take python serious?

Yes.

> I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a 
> multi-target automated-build-process?

If the team *would* not manage at least the foundation of a
multi-target automated-build-process, a professional developer
*should* not take python serious.

However, since the team *does* manage at least the foundation of
a multi-target automated-build-process, a professional developer
*might* take python serious.

[a false premise can imply anything]

Regards,
Martin

Pat wrote:
> On Windows, most users are used to installing precompiled binary
> packages, rather than compiling from source.  When you do have to
> compile from source, it often requires you to fiddle with nitty gritty
> details about which you'd rather remain ignorant.  The less fiddling
> required, the happier the user will be, and the easier it will be for
> that product to get adopted on that platform.  No psychic abilities are
> required.  No Python abilities are required, either, for that matter.
> ;-)

And the fact that building *any* Windows native program without commercial 
software is a PITA is the py-dev crew's fault, how?

The python.org releases provide pre-built binaries for Windows, support for 
compiling Windows extensions with various compilers (including MinGW), and 
autoconf/automake support for POSIX-ish platforms (including Cygwin).

For native Windows compilation of the interpreter, they support MSVC6 and MSVC7.1.

If you're a serious commercial Windows shop, you will have one of the Microsoft 
compiler suites installed *somewhere*. At that point, building your own version 
of Python is trivial.

Which leaves the hobbyists, and those companies which, for whatever reason, 
choose not to use Visual Studio to build C/C++ code on Windows.

If it meets your needs, the easiest solution is to build a non-native version 
using Cygwin (./configure, make, make altinstall). That's what I currently do, 
as the easiest free way to hack Python on a Windows box.

Which means our target group is now only those who want to build a Windows 
Python binary, and don't want to use Visual Studio, and don't want to use Cygwin 
(hmm, the group under discussion must be getting rather small by now).

Anyway, to support this group, the real thing that is needed is a tool to 
translate the MSVC7.1 solution files into GNU make files (so the MSYS make 
utility can parse them and invoke MinGW or the free MS compiler appropriately)

For anyone who actually wants to make this work, this message summarises where I 
got to before giving up and switching to a different platform for builds:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047215.html

Things have moved on since then - the Python project files no longer reference 
the unneeded ODBC libraries, but they do reference options the version of 
vcproj2make in the python-dev archives doesn't understand.

Also, vcproj2make has a dependency on PyXML, which isn't necessarily obvious 
from the error message you get when the sln parser fails to work.

It can be done, and it could be automated, but it doesn't take a Python core 
hacker to do it - it takes someone who cares about it, and understands GNU make 
and Python well enough to maintain vcproj2make.

To finish the job, someone would need to:
1. Commit to maintaining vcproj2make
2. Get Garth to put a real license on it
3. Finish it well enough that it works on the Python PCBuild directory
4. Provide instructions (and possibly a script) for building Python with 
vcproj2make, MSYS and MinGW.
5. See about including those instructions in Python CVS

(MinGW is probably a better option than the free MS compiler, since the files 
you need aren't scattered all over the MS website, embedded in over 300 MB worth 
of downloads, and you aren't bound by the MS EULA. Don't go redistributing 
msvcr71.dll though)

The trick is finding someone who cares enough, or someone who will pay someone 
to care enough - I cared for a while, but not enough to finish it. For what I 
want (hacking the interpreter core), Cygwin suffices, and it's a hell of a lot 
easier.

The pyMinGW folks appear to care, but for reasons best known to them, have 
chosen to track the PCBuild project files manually, rather than automating the 
process. They've also chosen to maintain separate files on their own site, 
rather than providing diff's and submitting appropriate patches to improve MinGW 
support in the main Python CVS. *shrug* Their call.

Cheers,
Nick.

P.S. if Ilias volunteers, or offers to pay someone to do this, instead of just 
complaining, will hell freeze over?)

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan@email.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
---------------------------------------------------------------
             http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net

> If you put yourself into the shoes of someone who decides to use a
> Python product that requires compiling, and that product contains C
> extensions that also need compiling, you'll see that it doesn't matter
> whether or not that individual has actually written a single line of
> Python themselves.  If the compiling process is not easy, then that
> user will be forced to fiddle with nitty gritty details about which
> they'd rather remain ignorant.

If an extension for python is written in C, usually the extension will be
available in binary form. As the porting from unix to windows takes some
effort, an extension needs testing on windows anyway. So unless you develop
extensions yourself, you don't need a compiler at all.

> On Linux, I've installed and used/compiled products in a variety of
> languages in which I've never written a single line of source code
> myself.  In most cases the process works fairly well.  When it doesn't,
> I'm forced to fiddle with nitty gritty details about which I'd rather
> remain ignorant.  The result is usually a good deal of frustration and
> anger on my part.

> On Windows, most users are used to installing precompiled binary
> packages, rather than compiling from source.  When you do have to
> compile from source, it often requires you to fiddle with nitty gritty
> details about which you'd rather remain ignorant.  The less fiddling
> required, the happier the user will be, and the easier it will be for
> that product to get adopted on that platform.  No psychic abilities are
> required.  No Python abilities are required, either, for that matter.
> ;-)

We're not talking end users here. If you have a product developed, you can
ship that - including binary parts compiled for windows.

If I recall your earlier post correctly, you wanted to use qt-x11 under
windows. So you want to use a piece of software which explicitely is not
supposed to run under windows - as there is a commercial version available
for windows. While I can understand the desire to have GPL version of Qt
for windows (which will become reality with qt4), I can't avoid to think
that you chose a deliberately rough path to follow. So there you are. If
you want things easy, pay for a msvc compiler + qt windows version. Then
things will be pretty straightforward. As others (including me) have stated
before: windows is a commercial product. You have to pay to use it, and you
have to pay to develop for it. That's the way MS wants it. The alternatives
are there - but you can't have your cake and eat it.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

Martin v. L�wis wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> Should I take answers serious?
> 
> If not, why are you asking questions in the first place?

simply read the next question, which limits the scope of the first one.

>> Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?
> 
> Coherence of writings?

An example:

they above 2 questions are coherent, thus answering isolated [as you've 
done] makes not much sense.

"
 >> Should I take answers serious?
 >> Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?
"

[answering here makes sense]

>> Should a professional developer take python serious?
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a 
>> multi-target automated-build-process?
> 
> If the team *would* not manage at least the foundation of a
> multi-target automated-build-process, a professional developer
> *should* not take python serious.

Very nice.

At this point, we agree very much.

> However, since the team *does* manage at least the foundation of
> a multi-target automated-build-process, a professional developer
> *might* take python serious.

here our disagreement:

=> {"managing the foundation of a multi-target automated-build-process"}

What are the requirements for fulfilling this?

> [a false premise can imply anything]

again you ignore coherent writings.

-

You have omitted the following part of my writings:

"[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They 
could be added/managed/maintained by community members]"

in which I essentially define a few requirements for "managing the 
foundation of a multi-target automated-build-process".

-

The python team should provide the fundamental infrastructure for the 
community, thus it can add/manage/maintain build targets.

Additionally:
   * The python-team should detect any efforts made for different 
build-targets
   * The python-team should attract/engourage the authors to include 
them in the main build-system [incubation section].

The python-community and the PSF supports the python-team to take the 
above actions.

> Regards,
> Martin

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

[snip, Ilias would not understand it]

> P.S. if Ilias volunteers, or offers to pay someone to do this,
instead of just
> complaining, will hell freeze over?)

Nick,

There is about as much chance of hell freezing over as there is of
England beating Australia in the cricket this summer. [I'am a
half-caste, English father, Welsh mother.  Makes it worse when you are
watching rugby :)]

To get back to Ilias, people on c.l.py have already pointed out that he
has been banned from other mailing lists, responds to 99% of assistance
with "not relevant", "off topic", or some similar garbage, and
obviously has no intention of actually delivering anything to anybody.
See c.l.clipper.visual-objects amognst other ngs for their opinion on
this megastar.

Me, I use Python to write simple programs to suit my own needs.  I have
never in the last three/four years needed to ask a question because the
documentation provided is perfectly adequate for me, failing which
Google this ng for an answer.

Ilias,

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the server room.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> they above 2 questions are coherent, thus answering isolated [as you've 
> done] makes not much sense.
> 
> "
>  >> Should I take answers serious?
>  >> Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?
> "

Except that the quote here above is NOT what was in your original 
posting. Here is the *real* quote (also note that Python uses """ 
instead of " for delimiting a multi-line string:

"""
Should I take answers serious?

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?
"""

If you insert a blank line between two sentences most people in this 
newsgroup (and in the western world in general) will interprete that as 
the start of a new paragraph, as an indication that what follows is 
something different than what precedes the blank line.
If you want to obtain "coherence of writing" between two sentences, then 
maybe you shouldn't type them as different paragraphs.

If you would have written:

"""
Should I take answers serious? Answer from people which do not respect 
coherence of writings?
"""

it would have been much more coherent.

Regards,
Jan

Jan Dries wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...] - (things which justify inability of coherence-detection)

> If you would have written:
> 
> """
> Should I take answers serious? Answer from people which do not respect 
> coherence of writings?
> """
> 
> it would have been much more coherent.

I understand.

Let's see:

-

Should I take answers serious?

..

..

..

..

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

-
-
-

I still detect the coherence.

As most people in this group will detect the coherence.

[Except if you want to ignore it, thus you can get at least _one_ 
'points' ins this discussion]

> Regards,
> Jan

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> I understand.

no.

</F> 

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Should I take answers serious?
> 
> .
> 
> .
> 
> .
> 
> .
> 
> Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?
> 
> -
> -
> -
> 
> I still detect the coherence.
> 
> As most people in this group will detect the coherence.

I don't. The second fragment is not even correct English
(it does not have a verb in the main phrase, and Answer
is lacking an article).
So I have to guess what you could have meant. If you want
to be understood, you might have phrased the question like
this:

"Should I take answers from people which do not respect coherence
of writings serious?"

Or, if this splits the adjective too much from the verb, you
could also write

"Should I take answers serious if they come from people which
do not respect coherence of writings?"

This *still* would not have meant that I had understood the
question, since I still don't know what coherence of
writings is (as you failed to give a definition when I
last asked), but atleast I would have realized that I
don't understand the question, and refrained from answering
it. Perhaps the question was meant rhetoric.

Regards,
Martin

On 2005-02-20, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:

>> If you would have written:
>> 
>> """
>> Should I take answers serious? Answer from people which do not respect 
>> coherence of writings?
>> """
>> 
>> it would have been much more coherent.
>
> I understand.

I doubt it.

> I still detect the coherence.
>
> As most people in this group will detect the coherence.

You, sir, are a loon.

I've detected little coherence in _any_ of your postings.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I want to TAKE IT
                                  at               HOME and DRESS IT UP in
                               visi.com            HOT PANTS!!

Nick Coghlan wrote:
> Pat wrote:
> > On Windows, most users are used to installing precompiled binary
> > packages, rather than compiling from source.  When you do have to
> > compile from source, it often requires you to fiddle with nitty
gritty
> > details about which you'd rather remain ignorant.  The less
fiddling
> > required, the happier the user will be, and the easier it will be
for
> > that product to get adopted on that platform.  No psychic abilities
are
> > required.  No Python abilities are required, either, for that
matter.
> > ;-)
>
> And the fact that building *any* Windows native program without
commercial
> software is a PITA is the py-dev crew's fault, how?

I don't recall saying that it was their fault, but if I gave that
impression I apologize.  I'm mainly reacting to those individuals who
keep claiming that things couldn't be any simpler and that there is no
problem.  Based on the quality of the rest of your reply, you clearly
on not one of those individuals.  In fact, you have given some great
information here.  So thank you.  It is greatly appreciated.

> The python.org releases provide pre-built binaries for Windows,
support for
> compiling Windows extensions with various compilers (including
MinGW), and
> autoconf/automake support for POSIX-ish platforms (including Cygwin).

True, and I've always been glad that Tim Peters went through all the
trouble of creating and supporting the Windows binaries because I was
on the Windows platform when I first got introduced to Python.  Thank
you, Tim!

> For native Windows compilation of the interpreter, they support MSVC6
and MSVC7.1.
>
> If you're a serious commercial Windows shop, you will have one of the
Microsoft
> compiler suites installed *somewhere*. At that point, building your
own version
> of Python is trivial.

True, but see my reply to your subsequent points.

> Which leaves the hobbyists, and those companies which, for whatever
reason,
> choose not to use Visual Studio to build C/C++ code on Windows.

Exactly.  And how big is that group, really?  It might be quite large.

> If it meets your needs, the easiest solution is to build a non-native
version
> using Cygwin (./configure, make, make altinstall). That's what I
currently do,
> as the easiest free way to hack Python on a Windows box.

Yeah, but Cygwin is a bit scary for Windows folks who aren't familiar
with Linux or Unix.

> Which means our target group is now only those who want to build a
Windows
> Python binary, and don't want to use Visual Studio, and don't want to
use Cygwin
> (hmm, the group under discussion must be getting rather small by
now).

Actually, I think this group is potentially huge in comparison to the
current users of Python.  It's just that they aren't currently
represented in the Python community.  Look at the PythonCard project.
I was involved in the early stages of its formation (that was when I
wrote PyCrust, which was incorporated into PythonCard).  A great deal
of the interest in PythonCard was from hobbyists, VBers, old HyperCard
developers, etc.  These folks were not your typical Python programmers.
 They just wanted a simple tool that they could use to create simple
applications.

Now what if PythonCard started using some C source code as part of
their project?  They would either have to provide binaries, or they
would have to make it easy for their developer community, many of whom
are on Windows, to be able to compile C extensions for Python.  If they
couldn't make it easy, they would risk alienating many of their
supporters.

So my only point is that by making it easier to use C extensions, we
have an opportunity to make Python more attractive to a broader
audience that includes hobbyists and folks that do not want to pay for
commercial C compilers.  And I think there may very well be more C code
in typical projects with all the cool tools getting used, like Pyrex
and such.

[snip]

The rest of your message provided great information.  Thank you very
much.

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org

[Snip]

Martin,

I believe that you are wasting your time.  Looking at your email
address, this may well be relevant.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/de.admin.net-abuse.news/browse_frm/thread/8914399857641c05/4163a4fb8a624349?q=Ilias&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fde.admin.net-abuse.news%2Fsearch%3Fgroup%3Dde.admin.net-abuse.news%26q%3DIlias%26qt_g%3D1%26searchnow%3DSearch+this+group%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#4163a4fb8a624349

Regards.

Mark Lawrence.

Martin v. L�wis wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> Should I take answers serious?
[...]
>> Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?
[...]
>> I still detect the coherence.
>>
>> As most people in this group will detect the coherence.
> 
> I don't. The second fragment is not even correct English
[...] - (limits of AI)

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Summarized Suggestions for the Python Team, PSF, Community):

-
-
-

An automated-build-process-system should allow community-members to add 
their targets (e.g. MinGW) into an special "incubation section", which 
does not in any way affect the "main section" (which contains the 
official production targets, e.g. MSVC).

If an "incubation section" target proves over time as stable and 
supported (by community contributions), it is moved to the 
"official-auto-build".

-


The python-team should
  * detect any efforts made within the community to support different 
build-targets
  * attract/engourage the authors/teams to include the patches/sources 
into the main build-system
  * attract/engourage the authors/teams to have open projects with an 
collaboration infrastructure.

-

The python-community and the PSF should support the python-team to 
fulfill the above tasks, thus the python-teams effort is limited to 
provide the infrastructure (incubation-build-targets).

-
-
-

Practical example:

Engourage the current pyMinGW project to become a open collaborative 
project:

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

   * as a first step, setup a pyMinGW mailinglist
     * intrested people can come together an communicate
   * as a second step, setup an SVN
     * intrested projects could get your patch via SVN
   * as a third step, find intrested contributors
     * which would help testing
     * which would help you with coding

The python-team setups a build-target, which the collaborative pyMinGW 
project tries to make valid.

-
-
-

Now it's really time to close this thread.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

"BrainDead" <breamoreboy@aol.com> writes:

> I believe that you are wasting your time.  Looking at your email
> address, this may well be relevant.
  [ 4-line URL snipped ]

Thanks for the historical reference. Please consider a visit to
tinyurl.com before posting a monster like that... :^)

Nick

-- 
#  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')

Martin v. L�wis:

> So I have to guess what you could have meant. If you want
> to be understood, you might have phrased the question like
> this:
>
> "Should I take answers from people which do not respect coherence
> of writings serious?"

   The main grammatical problem with the question is the use of an adjective
("serious") rather than an adverb ("seriously") to modify the verb "take".

Should I take answers seriously?

   I'd also add in an article to point to the particular answers to be
disregarded.

Should I take these answers seriously?

   Next problem is the disagreement in number between "answers" and "answer"
which breaks the connection just as separating the questions does.

Answers from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

   There are more problems to fix but this is a start. Grammatical errors
are often perceived as rudeness.

> Perhaps the question was meant rhetoric.

   Aghhh! He's got you doing it too.

   Neil -- Aussie ear for the foreign guy

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:

> Now it's really time to close this thread.

I suspect this will fall of deaf ears, but I have to mention that you
do not get to "close threads" on Usenet. You can excuse yourself from
this one and stop replying to comments, but you don't get to
unilaterally declare a discussion over.

Just not how it works, though in this case an exception might be
welcomed...

Nick

-- 
#  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')

Nick Vargish wrote:
> "BrainDead" <breamoreboy@aol.com> writes:
>
> > I believe that you are wasting your time.  Looking at your email
> > address, this may well be relevant.
>   [ 4-line URL snipped ]
>
> Thanks for the historical reference. Please consider a visit to
> tinyurl.com before posting a monster like that... :^)
>
> Nick
>
> --
> #  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this
to a python
> print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),'
Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')

Nick,

Sorry about that, forgot to engage brain before doing cut and paste.
At least I can learn, unlike some well known people.:)

Regards.

Mark Lawrence.

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> [...]
> 
> closing thread
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f2ae9cdbe16676d1
> 
Nope. You are not entitled to close thread. This is irrelevant.
-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for 
p in 'onurb@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> Should a professional developer take python serious?

A *professionnal developper*, yes. But this is irrelevant to you.

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for 
p in 'onurb@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

Nick Vargish schreef:

> Please consider a visit to
> tinyurl.com before posting a monster like that... :^)

As long as he also posts the full URL...

-- 
JanC

"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9

On 2005-02-20, Nick Vargish <nav+posts@bandersnatch.org> wrote:
> "BrainDead" <breamoreboy@aol.com> writes:
>
>> I believe that you are wasting your time.  Looking at your email
>> address, this may well be relevant.
>   [ 4-line URL snipped ]
>
> Thanks for the historical reference. Please consider a visit to
> tinyurl.com before posting a monster like that... :^)

I've never understood the problem with long URLs.  Many
newsreaders let you click on them.  If not, you just cut/paste
it into a browser (with a shellscript a couple lines long, you
can start firefox with the URL on the X clipboard with a single
command).

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm a GENIUS! I
                                  at               want to dispute sentence
                               visi.com            structure with SUSAN
                                                   SONTAG!!

Nick Vargish wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
> 
>> Now it's really time to close this thread.
> 
> I suspect this will fall of deaf ears, but I have to mention that you
>  do not get to "close threads" on Usenet.

this is obvious.

> You can excuse yourself from this one and stop replying to comments,
> but you don't get to unilaterally declare a discussion over.
[...]

The discussion is over.

At least the in-topic one.

Everything else is babbling, hairsplitting, playing an AI which does not 
understand writings and all this unproductive garbage.

The Essence is this one, as stated before:

"
Summarized Suggestions for the Python Team, PSF, Community):

-
-
-

An automated-build-process-system should allow community-members to add 
their targets (e.g. MinGW) into an special "incubation section", which 
does not in any way affect the "main section" (which contains the 
official production targets, e.g. MSVC).

If an "incubation section" target proves over time as stable and 
supported (by community contributions), it is moved to the 
"official-auto-build".

-


The python-team should
  * detect any efforts made within the community to support different 
build-targets
  * attract/engourage the authors/teams to include the patches/sources 
into the main build-system
  * attract/engourage the authors/teams to have open projects with an 
collaboration infrastructure.

-

The python-community and the PSF should support the python-team to 
fulfill the above tasks, thus the python-teams effort is limited to 
provide the infrastructure (incubation-build-targets).

-
-
-

Practical example:

Engourage the current pyMinGW project to become a open collaborative 
project:

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

   * as a first step, setup a pyMinGW mailinglist
     * intrested people can come together an communicate
   * as a second step, setup an SVN
     * intrested projects could get your patch via SVN
   * as a third step, find intrested contributors
     * which would help testing
     * which would help you with coding

The python-team setups a build-target, which the collaborative pyMinGW 
project tries to make valid.

-
-
-

Now it's really time to close this thread.

..
"

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

> I've never understood the problem with long URLs.  Many
> newsreaders let you click on them.  If not, you just cut/paste
> it into a browser (with a shellscript a couple lines long, you
> can start firefox with the URL on the X clipboard with a single
> command).

Some break the urls - so copy and pasting yields only start or end of the
urls, depending on the browser/edit control your pasting into.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

"Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message news:cvcv9b$nbm$1@usenet.otenet.gr...

> Nick Vargish wrote:
> > You can excuse yourself from this one and stop replying to comments,
> > but you don't get to unilaterally declare a discussion over.
> [...]
>
> The discussion is over.
>
> At least the in-topic one.
>
> Everything else is babbling, hairsplitting, playing an AI which does not
> understand writings and all this unproductive garbage.
>
> The Essence is this one, as stated before:
>
> [huge copy paste of previous post]


The Essence is irrelevant.
-
-
-
All your thread are belong to us.
-
-
-

George

Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> writes:

> I've never understood the problem with long URLs.  Many
> newsreaders let you click on them.  If not, you just cut/paste
> it into a browser (with a shellscript a couple lines long, you
> can start firefox with the URL on the X clipboard with a single
> command).

I use Gnus through a screen session, so when I select and copy a long
URL I get backslash characters in the copied text (as amusing as it
is, w3 is not a satisfying browsing experience for me :^). It's not
hard to manually pick out the backslashes, but it's time consuming and
kind of tedious. I use an open-source terminal app (iTerm under OS X),
so I guess I could hack the "open in browser" function to remove the
backslashes... Hmm...

Side projects aside, URLs less than 79 characters long are just easier
to handle in many ways.

Nick

-- 
#  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')

George Sakkis wrote:
> "Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message news:cvcv9b$nbm$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
> 
>>Nick Vargish wrote:
>>
>>>You can excuse yourself from this one and stop replying to comments,
>>>but you don't get to unilaterally declare a discussion over.
>>[...]
>>
>>The discussion is over.
>>
>>At least the in-topic one.
>>
>>Everything else is babbling, hairsplitting, playing an AI which does not
>>understand writings and all this unproductive garbage.
>>
>>The Essence is this one, as stated before:
>>
>>[huge copy paste of previous post]
> 
> The Essence is irrelevant.

It seems that this is true.

> -
> -
> -
> All your thread are belong to us.

This is true ["us" = a few off-topic-freaks]

> -
> -
> -
> 
> George

[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
Essence:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/5ba2a0ba55d4c102

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

George Sakkis wrote:
> "Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message news:cvcv9b$nbm$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
> 
> 
>>Nick Vargish wrote:
>>
>>>You can excuse yourself from this one and stop replying to comments,
>>>but you don't get to unilaterally declare a discussion over.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>The discussion is over.
>>
>>At least the in-topic one.
>>
>>Everything else is babbling, hairsplitting, playing an AI which does not
>>understand writings and all this unproductive garbage.
>>
>>The Essence is this one, as stated before:
>>
>>[huge copy paste of previous post]
> 
> 
> 
> The Essence is irrelevant.
> -
> -
> -
> All your thread are belong to us.
> -
> -
> -

For great justice!

;o)

Fredrik Lundh schrieb:
>     +00: googled for the mingw home page
>     +00: found the mingw download page
>     +02: finally figured out what to download
>     +03: noticed that my usual SF site only offered 1K/s; aborted download
>     +07: finished downloading the mingw kit from another SF site
>     +17: finished installing
>     +18: added \mingw\bin to the path
>     +18: typed "python setup.py install --compiler=mingw32"
>     +18: got a linker error; googled for help
>     +19: copied python24.dll to \mingw\lib
>     +20: finished building the sample library (cElementTree); all tests pass

Impressive. How did you record the minutes? ;) I'd like to know wether
this is a single observation or true for most if not all your MinGW
builds?

I used Borland's C++ Compiler (free and commercial) and had frequently
to tweak .def files and the source to make it work. I also had to
transform the python dll with COFF2OMF because the library interfaces
of python.dll and the Borland binaries were different.

If your MinGW experience described above is typical then I'll get a
stop watch and give it a try ;)

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Markus Wankus wrote:
> George Sakkis wrote:
>> "Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message 
[...]
>>> The Essence is this one, as stated before:
>>>
>>> [huge copy paste of previous post]
>>
>> The Essence is irrelevant.
>> -
>> -
>> -
>> All your thread are belong to us.
>> -
>> -
>> -
> 
> For great justice!
> 
> ;o)

[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
Essence:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/5ba2a0ba55d4c102

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

On 2005-02-23, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:

>>>> The Essence is this one, as stated before:
>>>>
>>>> [huge copy paste of previous post]
>>>
>>> The Essence is irrelevant.
>>> -
>>> All your thread are belong to us.
>>> -
>> 
>> For great justice!
>> 
>> ;o)
>
> [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
> Essence:
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/5ba2a0ba55d4c102

Um, you realize that nobody in this thread takes you the least
bit seriously and people are just poking you with a stick to
watch you jump?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  An INK-LING? Sure --
                                  at               TAKE one!! Did you BUY any
                               visi.com            COMMUNIST UNIFORMS??

Grant Edwards wrote:
[...]
> Um, you realize that nobody in this thread takes you the least
> bit seriously and people are just poking you with a stick to
> watch you jump?

jump:

[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
Essence:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/5ba2a0ba55d4c102

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

"Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message news:cvi5s1$4l5$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
> Grant Edwards wrote:
> [...]
> > Um, you realize that nobody in this thread takes you the least
> > bit seriously and people are just poking you with a stick to
> > watch you jump?
>
> jump:
>
> [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
> Essence:
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/5ba2a0ba55d4c102


Lol, this guy is hopeless :-)

George

In message <383qkkF5k6rf4U1@individual.net>, George Sakkis 
<gsakkis@rutgers.edu> writes
>"Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message 
>news:cvi5s1$4l5$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> [...]
>> > Um, you realize that nobody in this thread takes you the least
>> > bit seriously and people are just poking you with a stick to
>> > watch you jump?
>>
>> jump:
>>
>> [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
>> Essence:
>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/5ba2a0ba55d4c102
>
>
>Lol, this guy is hopeless :-)

Who's Guido?
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Stephen Kellett wrote:
[...]
> Who's Guido?

Guido is the one, who should care by time about the status of the 
python-community.

-

I've send an addition CC of this message to the python-foundation, which 
  will hopefully take some steps to improve the build-system.

[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
Essence:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/5ba2a0ba55d4c102

-

Thank's for every bit of contribution, which has made this thread an 
worthfull insight into the python-community.

..

-- 
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:

> Guido is the one, who should care by time about the status of the
> python-community.

That one crashed my parser.

> Thank's for every bit of contribution, which has made this thread an
> worthfull insight into the python-community.

To really get a sense of the Python "community" (at least the Usenet
branch), you should see how it responds to typical questions and
requests for help. The response you received is not really typical,
because your attitude has been atypical.

Just sayin',

Nick

-- 
#  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')

In message <421CC14A.4050708@lazaridis.com>, Ilias Lazaridis 
<ilias@lazaridis.com> writes
>Stephen Kellett wrote:
>[...]
>> Who's Guido?
>
>Guido is the one, who should care by time about the status of the 
>python-community.

Who is care by time?
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Nick Vargish wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Guido is the one, who should care by time about the status of the
>>python-community.
> 
> 
> That one crashed my parser.
> 

Sounds like a new Ministry song - "Guido Crashed my Parser".  Could be 
the sequel to "Jesus Built My Hot Rod".