I guess I have to post this periodically since our population is growing =
and changing so much.

---

Please stop responding to Ilias, he is crazy.  If you stop talking to =
him, he will go away. If you don't believe me, check out this:

http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html

> He soon started posting long tirades where he `proved' that the CL
> standard requires various behaviour, while completely ignoring the
> detailed rebuttals of his `proofs'.

(Sound familiar?)

Especially:

> Ilias is currently (17-Sep-2002) being almost entirely ignored and
> is crying alone to himself, while trying to join in various
> threads. With luck if this continues he will get bored and wander
> off to annoy people in some other newsgroup. He is one of the most
> malignant posters to cll in recent history - between 27-Aug-2002 and
> 24-Sep-2002 threads begin by him were about 1/4 of the articles in
> cll.

Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain from =
replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.

If you would, please join us is fighting this problem. For more details, =
see:

http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html

Thank You

[Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

I'm a new Rubyist and new to this list (as of today) and I must say, that
first link in your email has me in stitches :)

Some people, eh?

Thanks for making my day!


(If this is a double post I apologies, I sent my first email from an address
that isn't subscribed to this list by accident and got an auto email
politely remind me of the fact. Not sure if it went through or not.)

On Jun 10, 2011, at 2:41 PM, Ryan Davis wrote:

> I guess I have to post this periodically since our population is =
growing and changing so much.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Please stop responding to Ilias, he is crazy.  If you stop talking to =
him, he will go away. If you don't believe me, check out this:

As someone who has joined the lists only 5-6 months ago (and has not =
been exposed to
this nonsense), it's quite hard to resist the urge to point out when =
someone is always so very
wrong about so many things. I do worry a newcomer might see his posts =
and not realize it is
insanity. But I'll do my part, I'll bite my tongue.

Michael Edgar
adgar@carboni.ca
http://carboni.ca/

[Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Sam Rose <moshersam@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> (If this is a double post I apologies, I sent my first email from an
> address
> that isn't subscribed to this list by accident and got an auto email
> politely remind me of the fact. Not sure if it went through or not.)
>

It's not.

gmail for some reason or another shows 2 posts on your machine but one
to the comp.lang.ruby

It's weird. But rest assured it's not really double posting though it
gives the illusion that it is.

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Sam Rose <moshersam@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a new Rubyist and new to this list (as of today) and I must say, that
> first link in your email has me in stitches :)
>
> Some people, eh?
>
> Thanks for making my day!
>
>
> (If this is a double post I apologies, I sent my first email from an address
> that isn't subscribed to this list by accident and got an auto email
> politely remind me of the fact. Not sure if it went through or not.)
>

On Jun 10, 2011, at 14:29 , Aaron Patterson wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 03:41:59AM +0900, Ryan Davis wrote:
>> http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html
> 
> Also see here:
> 
>  http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ilias-Lazaridis

Added, thanks.

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Ryan Davis <ryand-ruby@zenspider.com> wrote:

> Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain
> from replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.

Apparently, his insanity (which I don't dispute) has resulted in some
legitimate improvements that have been accepted for Ruby 1.9.3, so I'm
not convinced that engaging him is without utility.

On Jun 10, 9:48=A0pm, Christopher Dicely <cmdic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Ryan Davis <ryand-r...@zenspider.com> w=
rote:
> > Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain
> > from replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.
>
> Apparently, his insanity (which I don't dispute) has resulted in some
> legitimate improvements that have been accepted for Ruby 1.9.3, so I'm
> not convinced that engaging him is without utility.

Can you tell me which improvements?

He reported a "BARRIER" as the codepage issue with old non unicode
friendly 737 codepage (greek)

Beyond that, I see long threads about CORE and BARRIER stuff as
criticizer of Matz's OO implementation in Ruby and it's performance
trades.

Bet next thread will be how non-OO is using regexp matchers and $1
$2...

--
Luis Lavena

On 6/10/2011 9:40 PM, Luis Lavena wrote:
> On Jun 10, 9:48 pm, Christopher Dicely <cmdic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Ryan Davis <ryand-r...@zenspider.com> wrote:
>>> Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain
>>> from replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.
>> Apparently, his insanity (which I don't dispute) has resulted in some
>> legitimate improvements that have been accepted for Ruby 1.9.3, so I'm
>> not convinced that engaging him is without utility.
> Can you tell me which improvements?

Some issues that have been accepted (and fixed):
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4758
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4738
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4806 (not closed, but some changes
have already been made)
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4784

A couple still under discussion:
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4824 (this one I think is a good idea)
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4830 (this one I don't)

Rejected:
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4774 (closed at Ilias' request after
it was explained why it should not be needed)
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4845 (the only really unreasonable
one I've seen)

Don't get me wrong.  I don't like Ilias, for reasons that I suspect are
obvious.  At the same time however, I feel like a lot of valid points
have been raised and not taken seriously on this list, purely because of
the source.

On 6/10/2011 12:41 PM, Ryan Davis wrote:
> http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html
>
From that site:
> Here is what I suggest. Create a mail signature or reply template with
> advice to ignore Ilias and no longer respond to him. *Every* time
> someone responds to him, email that person with the standard response.
> If enough people pick this up, and every time someone responds to
> Ilias they get 10+ form letters asking them not to, it should do a
> quick enough job of discouraging further threads.

I truly hope no one takes that advice.  If I get 10+ of these things
spammed to my inbox because I tried to help someone, it's not Ilias who
will wind up on my blacklist, it's the spammers.  Respond in thread
*once* if you must but spamming someones inbox for that is just
jack-assery.  Especially considering the target of your animosity has
had 4 of 8 issues accepted (and 2 still being discussed, 1 which IMO is
a good idea).

As I've said previously, I don't like Ilias, but that doesn't mean that
nothing he has to say is valid or worth discussing.  And if he really is
this bad, nature will run it's course and soon everyone will ignore him
naturally.  It already seems like the Ilias stuff has dropped off
substantially.

Personally, I wish we could get MINSWAN(Matz is nice, so we are nice)
back as a community, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside. 
Spamming some poor soul for trying to answer a question is certainly not
nice.

Since this has escalated to giving the guy a thread with his name in
the title; would someone mind linking some of his more prolific
trolling. Any hijacked threads? Common trollish behavior such as
insult a person directly. T

his "Ilias is Crazy" is becoming bit trite. I also think it's a bit
arrogant to single out and ostracize someone. I don't know if this
person has mental issues or not. It also does not matter.

He definitely has an abrasive way of expressing himself but far be it
for me to judge him based on his lack of socialization.

Telling people not to respond to someone sounds like some sort of
elitist click or beginning of an association fallacy. It also proves a
lack of diplomacy, tolerance, and empathy from those imposing such a
ridiculous crusade.

I agree with the poster above if some silly auto-email "llias warning"
becomes tied to the sign-up  or mail daemon I'd be extremely set back.
Something like that as well as this thread also reinforces the ad
hominem since you have issued a scarlet letter for the man.

From where I'm sitting he seems "Mostly Harmless".

Think about the community proverb: Matz is nice, so we are nice.

From my observations this entails these idioms:

Matz does not alienate llias, So neither should I
Matz practices tolerance, So shall I
Matz is diplomatic, So am I

~Stu

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Walton Hoops <me@waltonhoops.com> wrote:
> On 6/10/2011 12:41 PM, Ryan Davis wrote:
>> http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html
>>
> From that site:
>> Here is what I suggest. Create a mail signature or reply template with
>> advice to ignore Ilias and no longer respond to him. *Every* time
>> someone responds to him, email that person with the standard response.
>> If enough people pick this up, and every time someone responds to
>> Ilias they get 10+ form letters asking them not to, it should do a
>> quick enough job of discouraging further threads.
>
> I truly hope no one takes that advice. =A0If I get 10+ of these things
> spammed to my inbox because I tried to help someone, it's not Ilias who
> will wind up on my blacklist, it's the spammers. =A0Respond in thread
> *once* if you must but spamming someones inbox for that is just
> jack-assery. =A0Especially considering the target of your animosity has
> had 4 of 8 issues accepted (and 2 still being discussed, 1 which IMO is
> a good idea).
>
> As I've said previously, I don't like Ilias, but that doesn't mean that
> nothing he has to say is valid or worth discussing. =A0And if he really i=
s
> this bad, nature will run it's course and soon everyone will ignore him
> naturally. =A0It already seems like the Ilias stuff has dropped off
> substantially.
>
> Personally, I wish we could get MINSWAN(Matz is nice, so we are nice)
> back as a community, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
> Spamming some poor soul for trying to answer a question is certainly not
> nice.
>
>

On Jun 10, 2011, at 18:48 , Christopher Dicely wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Ryan Davis =
<ryand-ruby@zenspider.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain
>> from replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.
>=20
> Apparently, his insanity (which I don't dispute) has resulted in some
> legitimate improvements that have been accepted for Ruby 1.9.3, so I'm
> not convinced that engaging him is without utility.

His pedantic OCD has pointed out some stale data on the bugtracker =
that's been stale for a long time without complaint. Verdict: =
inconsequential.

He pointed out that we didn't support a decrepit unicode-incompatible =
windows codepage for greek. Verdict: inconsequential.

He pointed out a bug in syck... something nobody actually maintains. =
Psych was made the default engine for 1.9.3... I don't think we've =
looked into the potential consequences for this enough (I've had to make =
changes to rubygems to get it to work properly with psych... I'm sure =
there are others). Verdict: no clue.

All in all, I think his positive contributions do very little to pay off =
the amount of negative consequences he brings to the table.

One of the reasons why MINSWAN works is by shaping our community. For =
example, we actively ban trolls in IRC to maintain the culture we want =
to have. We don't have such controls in this medium as it is a =
mailing-list bridged to both usenet and a web forum. This is why I =
suggest shunning instead. It works... but only if we work together to =
make it work. This is why it worked for comp.lang.lisp. They were =
smaller and it was easier for them to actively shun Ilias until he went =
away.

What we're dealing with here is the Pareto Principal. >90% of the noise =
(and trolling) is coming from <10% of the people. If we control them, we =
control the noise. The signal cleans up drastically after that.

MINSWAN doesn't mean blindly accepting every asshole who comes along. =
For some people, rationality and polite requests to change behavior just =
never work. For them, we should shun.

On Jun 11, 2011, at 02:14 , Stu wrote:

> Since this has escalated to giving the guy a thread with his name in =
the title; would someone mind linking some of his more prolific =
trolling. [...]

A lot of examples have been pointed out in this thread for recent cases. =
You can google for the older ones.

> Telling people not to respond to someone sounds like some sort of
> elitist click or beginning of an association fallacy. It also proves a
> lack of diplomacy, tolerance, and empathy from those imposing such a
> ridiculous crusade.

I'm merely trying to shape the traffic on this list in a way that =
creates the community we want to have (as described in another email I =
just sent, so I won't go into that further). In some cases, no amount of =
diplomacy, tolerance, or empathy will help. I believe this is one of =
them. I can respect that you don't appreciate my suggested method, but I =
don't think that having a community that we can participate in and enjoy =
is a ridiculous crusade.

Go back in the mailing list archives and see how much Ilias can =
destabilize this list if you don't believe me or in my methods. =
Comp.lang.lisp demonstrated that shunning Ilias worked for them. If you =
don't approve of shunning, suggest something better and show that it =
works.=20

On Saturday, June 11, 2011 04:14:17 AM Stu wrote:
> Since this has escalated to giving the guy a thread with his name in
> the title; would someone mind linking some of his more prolific
> trolling. Any hijacked threads? Common trollish behavior such as
> insult a person directly. T

He's insulted me pretty directly most of the time he's actually responded to 
me. He's also made legal threats when people point out his trollish behavior.

I might tolerate these if he brought anything useful to the discussion, but 
with him, it isn't a discussion. He'll blatantly ignore or strawman anything 
he doesn't like, which means unless you present him with _precisely_ what he's 
looking for (and he's usually looking for things which are at best nonsensical 
and usually very bad ideas), don't expect him to read or understand your post.

> He definitely has an abrasive way of expressing himself but far be it
> for me to judge him based on his lack of socialization.

It's not just a lack of socialization, it's a complete unwillingness to learn. 
That is, an unwillingness to learn much about Ruby (beyond his latest 
"BARRIER"), or anything about basic etiquette. Indeed, these are exactly the 
sort of things which he'll ignore as "offtopic".

I wouldn't judge someone for, say, top-posting, like you did here. But if I 
pointed out that you really shouldn't top-post, and you should quote the 
relevant parts rather than the entire email, I would hope you wouldn't respond 
with "Quit being so unprofessional! It's my right to top-post! Anyone should 
be able to see in five minutes that top-posting is correct! If you tell me 
again, I'll sue!"

And that's toned down a bit from what we usually get from Ilias. Oh, I'm 
sorry, not "sue", but "Here's a link to defamation laws, and I'll be forced to 
'take action' if you know what I mean, wink wink, nod nod."

> Telling people not to respond to someone sounds like some sort of
> elitist click or beginning of an association fallacy. It also proves a
> lack of diplomacy, tolerance, and empathy from those imposing such a
> ridiculous crusade.

It's pragmatic, and it's based on his actions, not association.

I actually somewhat agree with you in that I'm likely to continue to respond 
as I have the time. After all, every response is an opportunity for Ilias to 
grow up.

But he's far from harmless. We're spending our time and energy dealing with 
him, instead of people who actually have real problems and are willing to work 
with us to solve them.

If he showed the slightest willingness to learn, if he "had time" to work with 
us instead of against us, then replying to him would make sense, because he 
would actually improve with each exchange. There's no reason that, even at 
this point, he can't become a respected member of the community, someone who 
actually does make a positive contribution.

But he's not interested in that.

> Think about the community proverb: Matz is nice, so we are nice.
> 
> From my observations this entails these idioms:
> 
> Matz does not alienate llias, So neither should I
> Matz practices tolerance, So shall I
> Matz is diplomatic, So am I

Here's what Matz had to say:

http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/1893190#1004250

Perhaps that is diplomatic, tolerant, and not alienating. If so, sure, I'd 
love to see more responses like that -- but not as much as I wish people like 
Matz didn't have to waste their time with people like Ilias.

In any case, it certainly didn't seem nice, nor does Ilias deserve nice at 
this point. He's lucky people are still willing to tolerate him.

On Saturday, June 11, 2011 05:55:20 PM Chad Perrin wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 07:39:12AM +0900, David Masover wrote:
> > I wouldn't judge someone for, say, top-posting, like you did here. But if
> > I pointed out that you really shouldn't top-post, and you should quote
> > the relevant parts rather than the entire email, I would hope you
> > wouldn't respond with "Quit being so unprofessional! It's my right to
> > top-post! Anyone should be able to see in five minutes that top-posting
> > is correct! If you tell me again, I'll sue!"
> 
> It occurs to me his "take action" might involve reporting people to ISPs
> for disagreeing with him, or something asinine like that.

That's not reasonable. He almost always says this immediately after citing 
(and sometimes linking to) defamation laws. As poor as his communication 
skills may be, I find it hard to believe that he didn't at least intend to 
give the impression of a legal threat, which is functionally equivalent to 
actually delivering a legal threat.

So, his comments about "taking action" are duck-typed as legal threats.

> > But he's far from harmless. We're spending our time and energy dealing
> > with him, instead of people who actually have real problems and are
> > willing to work with us to solve them.
[...]
> I think the bigger danger than being too busy to help someone is someone
> saying "Wow, a troll is running this mailing list.  I won't even ask."

That's a good point.

Of course, we also have to balance it against the impression that trolling is 
tolerated. Worse, it's not obvious to an outsider that Ilias' blockers are 
not, in fact, serious problems with Ruby (especially bad if the entire 
community ignores serious blockers), but are a result of his own possibly-
deliberate misunderstanding.

I'm not sure what the balance is here. I'm starting to see the case for 
ignoring him until he goes away.