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Custom frames, dynamic skinning?

Hi Andy!

http://www.codeproject.com/KB/WPF/CustomFrames.aspx

Is that supported in Dolphin? Fresh look and feel :-)

Have fun, Guido Stepken
0
gstepken (2)
11/26/2009 8:19:20 AM
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Guido,

> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/WPF/CustomFrames.aspx
> 
> Is that supported in Dolphin? Fresh look and feel :-)

Not like that, no. The linked project uses WPF which is available only 
to managed code running on the CLR. There are apparently ways to allow 
Win32 apps to call WPF content but they are rather involved (and would 
necessitate the Dolphin VM being linked with the CLR runtime).

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa970266.aspx

However, it is possible to use layered windows to get similar effects. 
Try this in a Dolphin workspace. You will first have to add the 
Win32Constants pool to the workspace to get access to the LWA_COLORKEY 
constant.

-----

"We'll use the Hello World demo because it contains a nice ellipse"
hw := HelloWorld new show.

"Turn of the standard Windows frame and force a repaint"
hw view hasCaption: false; isResizable: false; invalidate.

"Turn on layering and say that the white background is transparent"
hw isLayeredWindow: true.
UserLibrary default setLayeredWindowAttributes: w handle lcrKey: RGB 
white asParameter bAlpha: 0 dwFlags: LWA_COLORKEY.

"The frame controls have gone so you have to explicitly destroy the window"
hw destroy.

-----

Obviously, if you use this method you have to implement your own windows 
frame controls for max/min/close and resize.

Best regards

Andy Bower
0
Andy
11/26/2009 10:42:24 AM
Andy Bower schrieb:
> Guido,
> 
>> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/WPF/CustomFrames.aspx
>>
>> Is that supported in Dolphin? Fresh look and feel :-)
> 
> Not like that, no. The linked project uses WPF which is available only 
> to managed code running on the CLR. There are apparently ways to allow 
> Win32 apps to call WPF content but they are rather involved (and would 
> necessitate the Dolphin VM being linked with the CLR runtime).
...
> Obviously, if you use this method you have to implement your own windows 
> frame controls for max/min/close and resize.

So, if i understand you right, Dolphin has language bindings only to 
older, "unmanaged" code basis and framework.

As far as i have understood Microsofts strategy right, Microsoft is busy 
working on .NET (mangaged code basis), being soon to be able to replace 
that "old stuff".

 From the strategical point of view, how do you plan to keep up with 
Microsofts plans?

What could convice a decision maker to change over to Dolphin Smalltalk?

Do other Smalltalk companies have the same problem?

Could a standardisation of e.g. a OpenGL GUI (see Khronos libraries and 
the outstanding FLUX2D/3D lib!!) resolve this dependancy?

regards, Guido Stepken
0
Guido
11/26/2009 11:06:01 AM
Guido,

I'm beginning to see that you don't know Dolphin at all. Do you even 
have the free version installed anywhere? Did you try that code snippet 
I posted or was it a waste of time creating it?

> So, if i understand you right, Dolphin has language bindings only to 
> older, "unmanaged" code basis and framework.

Yes.

> As far as i have understood Microsofts strategy right, Microsoft is busy 
> working on .NET (mangaged code basis), being soon to be able to replace 
> that "old stuff".

Microsoft has been working on .NET since 2002. I have not seen a direct 
statement that they are "soon" to replace Win32/64. It may be that they 
would like to do so but there are *many many* applications that rely on 
unmanaged C++ (virtually all DirectX PC games for example). Indeed, with 
Win7 I have noticed a small, but perceptible, move in the other 
direction. The appearance of two new unmanaged APIs in Direct2d and 
DirectWrite is an example.

> From the strategical point of view, how do you plan to keep up with 
> Microsofts plans?

If you mean, how are we going to support Dolphin running under .NET, 
then we are not. At least there is no road-map to do so.

Listen, you need to be realistic here. It's possible, not being a 
Dolphin user, that you don't know the history so I'll go over it again. 
Object Arts is a two-man outfit who, since 1997, have maintained and 
sold a Windows only Smalltalk. We deliberately targetted Dolphin at a 
low price point so individuals and small companies could afford to use it.

In 2007 it became clear that sales of Dolphin under the existing 
business model (i.e. free version and pro version costing $475) could 
not support two developers so Blair took a full time position with 
Microsoft. At that point it was plain that we would not be able to plan 
large scale future developments (such as a rewrite in .NET - even if 
that were possible) so Dolphin was effectively put into maintenance mode.

Over the past few years it's become clear that there is still a core of 
committed Dolphin users who want to continue to work with the product. 
  That is where the recent "PledgeWare" idea comes from. The main reason 
why existing developers would move away from Dolphin is uncertainty. 
Uncertainty about whether the product (and the users' applications) will 
continue to work in future. Uncertainty about whether Dolphin can keep 
up with developments in other Smalltalks (like Seaside, Magritte etc).

The current idea is to investigate a commercially viable system 
(PledgeWare) where Dolphin users can see that there is a route forward 
to keeping the Dolphin VM running in future versions of Windows and 
where there vibrant community support. The current proposal of new 
version of Dolphin (7) hosting a shared repository and a 64 bit VM, 
funded by pledges from the user base is meant to demonstrate this.

I think I have made a mistake and given the wrong impression with a 
recent post entitled "PledgeWare: Aiming for a Dolphin Restart". Use of 
the word "restart" in particular is inappropriate. I see now that to 
most people this implies that Object Arts will go back to a series of 
continual product release cycles financed by subscriptions and/or 
upgrade fees. We simply cannot do this.

The real point is to get Dolphin into a state where the community can 
support themselves and go forward. This means enabling communal sharing 
of code and alleviating the fear of the VM not being maintained in 
future. This is the "restart" that I had meant to imply.

> What could convice a decision maker to change over to Dolphin Smalltalk?

I'm not sure. Change over from what? If someone has an existing product 
written in another language with developers trained in that language, I 
can't believe anything would convince them to change to Dolphin.

If you are a committed Smalltalk shop that knows the advantages of 
Smalltalk then you may well choose to stay with Dolphin or to choose 
Dolphin for a new project. You would weigh up the risks against the 
costs and decide.

I personally use Dolphin to run automated stock trading systems. I 
recently had to choose between starting a new big development in a 
language I know and love or moving to Java or C#. I've chosen to stick 
with Dolphin and I'd like to enable other Dolphin users to have the 
confidence to make a similar choice. That's the point of the current 
initiative.

> Do other Smalltalk companies have the same problem?

Yes. There is currently no other Smalltalk IDE that will run on top of 
..NET. The Sharp-Smalltalk that you mentioned the other day is the only 
ST compiler that does so but, as yet, it is an experimental project that 
has no IDE. Dolphin is still probably the best Smalltalk if you are only 
  interested in Windows (although Cincom's ObjectStudio team would like 
to dispute this, I'm sure).

> Could a standardisation of e.g. a OpenGL GUI (see Khronos libraries and 
> the outstanding FLUX2D/3D lib!!) resolve this dependancy?

I don't see how. OpenGL is a graphics library. Yes with it you could 
build an interesting non-standard GUI but how does that help integrate 
with a .NET code base?

Best regards

Andy Bower
0
Andy
11/26/2009 2:15:09 PM
Andy Bower schrieb:
> Guido,
> 
> I'm beginning to see that you don't know Dolphin at all. Do you even 
> have the free version installed anywhere?

As you know i have a "license-key" for a free dolphin license :-)

> Did you try that code snippet 
> I posted or was it a waste of time creating it?

tnx. Seen.

> The real point is to get Dolphin into a state where the community can 
> support themselves and go forward. This means enabling communal sharing 
> of code and alleviating the fear of the VM not being maintained in 
> future. This is the "restart" that I had meant to imply.

Hmmm. Q: Is Dolphin IDE itself written in Dolphin Smalltalk?

Another Q:

Do you really think, that a community will support and "go forward" 
successfully without full sources of dolphin itself including the right 
, freely to modify, whatever is needed to be modified?

regards, Guido Stepken
0
Guido
11/26/2009 5:01:12 PM
On Nov 26, 6:01=A0pm, Guido Stepken <gstep...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Andy Bower schrieb:
> Hmmm. Q: Is Dolphin IDE itself written in Dolphin Smalltalk?

Guido, please do not bother Andy.

If you really need someone to bother, please bother me and do not
deplete all of his enthusiasm.

Dolphin IDE is written in Dolphin Smalltalk.

rush
0
rush
11/26/2009 6:28:46 PM
Guido Stepken schrieb:
> Andy Bower schrieb:
>> Guido,
>>
>> I'm beginning to see that you don't know Dolphin at all. Do you even 
>> have the free version installed anywhere?
> 
> As you know i have a "license-key" for a free dolphin license :-)
> 
>> Did you try that code snippet I posted or was it a waste of time 
>> creating it?
> 
> tnx. Seen.
> 
>> The real point is to get Dolphin into a state where the community can 
>> support themselves and go forward. This means enabling communal 
>> sharing of code and alleviating the fear of the VM not being 
>> maintained in future. This is the "restart" that I had meant to imply.
> 
> Hmmm. Q: Is Dolphin IDE itself written in Dolphin Smalltalk?
You wrote that you have a license key for DCE. Have you ever tried it 
and used the browsers? Maybe you could answer this question by yourself 
then?

Regards,
Andreas
0
Andreas
11/26/2009 6:30:56 PM
Guido,

> Hmmm. Q: Is Dolphin IDE itself written in Dolphin Smalltalk?

Yes, of course. I thought you said you had a copy of the free version? 
Surely you can see this?

> Another Q:
> 
> Do you really think, that a community will support and "go forward" 
> successfully without full sources of dolphin itself including the right 
> , freely to modify, whatever is needed to be modified?

Well, yes of course, otherwise I wouldn't be trying. 98% of Dolphin's 
code is open source (i.e. freely visible and modifiable). Only the VM, 
which is written in C++ and assembler is closed.

If you are implying that the only way to take Dolphin forward is to Open 
Source it then we may as well stop this conversation now. My standpoint 
is this:

As a programmer, I think one should be able to make a living from the 
creation of software and not just from the support of it (or from third 
party advertising on the site that hosts it). In the same way as many of 
the Free Software folks seem to be morally opposed to commercial 
software, I am morally opposed to spending a significant amount of my 
time creating something and then being expected to give it away for 
free. Sorry, it may be old fashioned, it's just the way I am.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy to use OS software and I'm happy to write 
some stuff and give it away on occasion. What I'm against is the belief 
that this is the only way software creation can work.

There are a number of Open Source Smalltalks out there already; at least 
4 (e.g. Squeak, Pharo, FScript, GNU). I wonder if *any* of the 
developers of these are able to make a living from it? Until that can be 
demonstrated then I don't think I can consider the life style change 
that a shift to OS would involve. Indeed, I very much doubt that the 
world actually needs another OS Smalltalk.

Frankly, I don't really want to get into a big debate on Open Source 
again because the last time I mentioned it I received a ton of hate mail 
and various unpleasant comments on the web about my position on it.

Best regards

Andy Bower
0
Andy
11/26/2009 6:34:08 PM
On Nov 26, 7:01=A0pm, Guido Stepken <gstep...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hmmm. Q: Is Dolphin IDE itself written in Dolphin Smalltalk?


I remember reading something like that on documentation, couldn't find
it now. You can even find most of the "View"s of the IDE in "View
Composer/IDE Tools" and use them in your projects.


>
> Another Q:
>
> Do you really think, that a community will support and "go forward"
> successfully without full sources of dolphin itself including the right
> , freely to modify, whatever is needed to be modified?


Of course it won't be like having a full open source project, but this
shared repository feature excites me very much. It will definitely be
a big improvement and help keeping Dolphin more active than ever.

Maybe the announced features didn't excite you much but I think you
are being a little bit too pessimistic. If Dolphin 7 is going to
happen then we can say that Dolphin will be alive for at least 4-5
years more and, as a Smalltalker, this news makes me very happy! Andy
might have choosen to stop the development of this beautiful
development environment and went to another direction (much more
profitable for him) which would be a bad thing, directly or
indirectly, for everyone around here.

Regards,

Canol
0
ZuLuuuuuu
11/26/2009 6:46:11 PM
Hey Guido:

If you have some time to spend try
http://www.codejock.com/products/skinframework/?platform=com

I have no success skinning the Dolphin's windows and I only can apply
the skin to the window frame.
I currently don't need this stuff, my tests were just for fun.

Cheers
  Sebastian Calvo

On 26 nov, 05:19, Guido Stepken <gstep...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Andy!
>
> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/WPF/CustomFrames.aspx
>
> Is that supported in Dolphin? Fresh look and feel :-)
>
> Have fun, Guido Stepken

0
GallegO
11/26/2009 7:49:09 PM
Andy Bower schrieb:
> Guido,
> 
>> Hmmm. Q: Is Dolphin IDE itself written in Dolphin Smalltalk?
> 
> Yes, of course. I thought you said you had a copy of the free version? 
> Surely you can see this?

:) Yes, of course. I know how to analyse "binaries" ... I asked for a 
different reason. If s.b. develops with Dolphin - is it possible to 
create applications, that don't look 'old fashioned', like Dolphin IDE? 
- No! Dolphin is very close bound to that old Microsoft look and feel!

Did you notice that sudden revolution, that was initialized by iPhone 
new look and feel? 2 years later, today - Symbian is dead, Windows CE is 
dead, Windows Mobile is dead, QT/mobile dead ... Why? Apple simply 
invented a new concept - touch, just 1 button left. That revolution now 
happens to desktop computers! I have tested several new touch concepts 
.... they need different 'mental models' behind GUI. I am involved in 
such a development in software for hospitals, medicines. Means - 30% 
less 'paper work' for medicins, access to all informations everywhere in 
the world. And - easy to use. Intuitive! That's the real innovation behind!

>> Another Q:
>>
>> Do you really think, that a community will support and "go forward" 
>> successfully without full sources of dolphin itself including the 
>> right , freely to modify, whatever is needed to be modified?
> 
> Well, yes of course, otherwise I wouldn't be trying. 98% of Dolphin's 
> code is open source (i.e. freely visible and modifiable). Only the VM, 
> which is written in C++ and assembler is closed.
> 
> If you are implying that the only way to take Dolphin forward is to Open 
> Source it then we may as well stop this conversation now. 

> There are a number of Open Source Smalltalks out there already; at least 
> 4 (e.g. Squeak, Pharo, FScript, GNU). I wonder if *any* of the 
> developers of these are able to make a living from it?

Many of them even have become millionaires :) Including Linus, Richard, 
MySQL/PHP people, e.t.c.! Strange, isn't it?

It is simply a question of "business strategy", not efforts or "quality 
of software" (if it was like this, Microsoft wouldn't have survived, 
OS/2 would be mainstream OS! ;-)

> Frankly, I don't really want to get into a big debate on Open Source 
> again because the last time I mentioned it I received a ton of hate mail 
> and various unpleasant comments on the web about my position on it.

Well, Andy, what happens, if your new (=old) "business concept" doesn't 
work? Objects Arts perhaps goes bankrupt, sources of Dolphin burried 
somewhere in your archives. Simply history. Some companies/customers 
upset, but who cares? You? No! But hopefully you will get an entry in 
Wikipedia under "Former Smalltalk IDE's"

Did you follow, what happened to GFA - Basic, even Borland (Delphi, 
Kylix)any why? Borland once even was a market leader! Gone!

Have you seen, how big e.g. the Pharo developer group has become? - A 
free Smtalltalk - a big competitor, which runs on all platforms!!
Big companies are investing - millions of bucks, e.g. SAP (HPI). Have 
you understood, why they do this?

Perhaps - in a year from now on - you, Frank, Ale, ... should have a 
meeting ...

Have fun till then - i wish you all the best ... i stay tuned :-)

Guido Stepken
0
Guido
11/26/2009 8:01:46 PM
Guido,

> :) Yes, of course. I know how to analyse "binaries" ... 

What are you talking about?

> I asked for a 
> different reason. If s.b. develops with Dolphin - is it possible to 
> create applications, that don't look 'old fashioned', like Dolphin IDE? 
> - No! Dolphin is very close bound to that old Microsoft look and feel!

Bollocks. I have already shown you that it is possible to develop 
new-style nonstandard UIs in Dolphin. Twice. This morning I showed you 
how to create non-rectangular windows in 4 lines of Smalltalk. 
Yesterday, I showed you a screendump of a 3D application built in 
Dolphin with non-standard animated toolbars placed over a 3D surface. I 
show you all these things and yet you make no comment and just move onto 
yet another question.

IMHO you are a timewaster (I don't say troll at this stage because 
perhaps you don't even know you are doing it).

> Did you notice that sudden revolution, that was initialized by iPhone 
> new look and feel? 2 years later, today - Symbian is dead, Windows CE is 
> dead, Windows Mobile is dead, QT/mobile dead ... Why? Apple simply 
> invented a new concept - touch, just 1 button left. That revolution now 
> happens to desktop computers! I have tested several new touch concepts 
> ... they need different 'mental models' behind GUI. I am involved in 
> such a development in software for hospitals, medicines. Means - 30% 
> less 'paper work' for medicins, access to all informations everywhere in 
> the world. And - easy to use. Intuitive! That's the real innovation behind!

See above.

>> There are a number of Open Source Smalltalks out there already; at 
>> least 4 (e.g. Squeak, Pharo, FScript, GNU). I wonder if *any* of the 
>> developers of these are able to make a living from it?
> 
> Many of them even have become millionaires :) Including Linus, Richard, 
> MySQL/PHP people, e.t.c.! Strange, isn't it?

Well for a start I asked whether any OS *Smalltalk* creators had made a 
living out of it. Why did you choose not to answer? I guess they would 
need to answer it for themselves. It's no surprise to me that a few 
people can become millionaires - but it's not the majority - or even 
that common.

> Have you seen, how big e.g. the Pharo developer group has become? - A 
> free Smtalltalk - a big competitor, which runs on all platforms!!

Yes, and Pharo is great. However, it is slower than Dolphin, arguably 
less easy to use and doesn't support native widgets on any platform. 
Maybe it will address these issues but there has been an ongoing effort 
to produce a faster VM for Squeak for 10 years now and still no 
noticeable progress. Why hasn't the Linus Law worked there? OS is not 
necessarily a panacea for success!

Right now there are reasons why Dolphin is a better choice than Pharo 
and vice versa. If it was an easy decision then all the Dolphin users 
would be off using Pharo right now. Indeed some are, but others find 
value in what Dolphin continues to have.

> Have fun till then - i wish you all the best ... i stay tuned :-)

Hmmm....

Andy Bower
0
Andy
11/26/2009 9:03:12 PM
Andy Bower schrieb:
> Guido,
> 
>> :) Yes, of course. I know how to analyse "binaries" ... 
> 
> What are you talking about?
> 
>> I asked for a different reason. If s.b. develops with Dolphin - is it 
>> possible to create applications, that don't look 'old fashioned', like 
>> Dolphin IDE? - No! Dolphin is very close bound to that old Microsoft 
>> look and feel!
> 
> Bollocks. I have already shown you that it is possible to develop 
> new-style nonstandard UIs in Dolphin. Twice. This morning I showed you 
> how to create non-rectangular windows in 4 lines of Smalltalk.

No. Just some code fragments, where the word "ellipse" was in the comments:

"We'll use the Hello World demo because it contains a nice ellipse"

And you have shown, that escaping that typical look and feel costs you 
to loose frame controls:

"The frame controls have gone so you have to explicitly destroy the window"

Well, i also can open a framebuffer (see e.g. DirectShow) and paint 
funny things into it. OpenGL send directly to graphic card.

> Yesterday, I showed you a screendump of a 3D application built in 
> Dolphin with non-standard animated toolbars placed over a 3D surface. I 
> show you all these things and yet you make no comment and just move onto 
> yet another question.

Yes, seen. Some 3d avatars. Nothing special. The point is - there is a 
3d framework concept missing, that will replace that old - fashioned 
win32 stuff AND has new mental models there behind, which make a GUI 
touchable and furthermore "INTUITIVE".

That standard is missing in the smalltalk community.

> IMHO you are a timewaster (I don't say troll at this stage because 
> perhaps you don't even know you are doing it).

The real timewaster (maybe) is you, because its really difficult to make 
you think, to see new chances in your life. One chance you have already 
thrown away, when you have announced to discontinue Dolphin. So - learn!

>> Did you notice that sudden revolution, that was initialized by iPhone 
>> new look and feel? 2 years later, today - Symbian is dead, Windows CE 
>> is dead, Windows Mobile is dead, QT/mobile dead ... Why? Apple simply 
>> invented a new concept - touch, just 1 button left. That revolution 
>> now happens to desktop computers! I have tested several new touch 
>> concepts ... they need different 'mental models' behind GUI. I am 
>> involved in such a development in software for hospitals, medicines. 
>> Means - 30% less 'paper work' for medicins, access to all informations 
>> everywhere in the world. And - easy to use. Intuitive! That's the real 
>> innovation behind!

Don't you see, that - assumed OpenSouce Development - a new OpenGL 
STANDARD SMALLTALK-2010 GUI could emerge as public development effort 
among Smalltalkers.

Don't you see, that this chance has come now?

That's by far more important, that investing into a jitter.

Because if that is not going to happen very soon, Smalltalk and all 
smalltalk companies will disappear (if they haven't already). Even the 
market leaders.
....
>> Have you seen, how big e.g. the Pharo developer group has become? - A 
>> free Smtalltalk - a big competitor, which runs on all platforms!!
> 
> Yes, and Pharo is great. However, it is slower than Dolphin, arguably 
> less easy to use and doesn't support native widgets on any platform.

At that time, when users and developers want or need new fresh usability 
concepts (the time has come now!) and new mental models (touch, 3d ...) 
there behind, microsoft win32 framework will be dead within a couple of 
month, replaced by NONNATIVE STANDARD OPENGL 2.0 (ES) WIDGETS ON ANY 
PLATFORM.

And - The power of innovation now comes from iPhone and Android. In 
former times they tried to adapt fat client technoloy to pocket pc's, 
now it's the other way round!

You understand, what i want to say?

> Maybe it will address these issues but there has been an ongoing effort 
> to produce a faster VM for Squeak for 10 years now and still no 
> noticeable progress.

You didn't notice. The world is passing by and you sit there hacking 
around, improving old stuff.

> Why hasn't the Linus Law worked there?

Works fine. Huge community is watching. Hey, where do you live? On Mars?

> OS is not necessarily a panacea for success!
> 
> Right now there are reasons why Dolphin is a better choice than Pharo 
> and vice versa. If it was an easy decision then all the Dolphin users 
> would be off using Pharo right now.

This will happen very soon, i fear.

regards, Guido Stepken
0
Guido
11/26/2009 9:58:59 PM
Hi Guido,

I disagree with your claims.
I am not in the office & read news irregular therefor my late answer.

Dolphin has an excellent Development GUI & a clean patternized framework.
It is the best of all Smalltalk frameworks that I have seen.
This is also why I proposed to Andy to use our VM for the next generation 
Dolphin.
Dolphin's VM is very well written & also the feature richest of all VM's 
commercially available.

Please dont compare commercial Sts with free Sts. They are different & I 
will not explain what need to be done to improve OS SW.
Sq or Ph may have a large community but what counts for me is first my 
customer.

I have no advantage if a large community uses my technology & ideas & 
incorporate my technology in OS Sts.
Also the Dolphin customers have no advantage if we am not sucesssful with 
getting my customers applications running on DNG.
We need to be
    (1) technical successful
    (2) financial successful

with DNG
    than we can think how to get more customers

If step 1,2 is successful then next steps can be taken.

yes it would be nice to have DNG 32/64 on X86 & ARM, and also for Linux. I 
dont care much what other Sts have or claim to have.
most of free St work is prototypic & CANNOT be used in production - result 
of free is minor quality.

It would not help me if our VM is OS - & it would not help our customer nor 
the community.

What is commercial needed is a maintained VM & framework which is guaranted 
to be adopted to the changing SW world.
And the SW world is not changing by having a lot of short live crap OS ware. 
If people like to do business in OS world they can do- but not I.
We see today a strong Win7 market - its success based in Win32/Win64 
transitioning to Win64 - that's why there was a big interest to have 
Dolphins VM
ported to Win64. I do not want to argue about necessity of 64 Bit - my only 
argument is integration of Dolphin into Win64

But I like to develop DNG with a small number of experts & customers first.
We will not accept any vendor or tech lock-in into DNG - but we define a 
clean interface to other runtimes ( e.g .NET & Java )
We will not accept technology flow of our work into the OS Sts
But technology is luckily exposed by the core technology - the Dolphin & the 
DNG VM

DNG round 0 & Dolphin 7 have both a sophisticated VM & are based on the D6 
St frameworks which is based on the WinX API.

iPhone or G1 is a totally different market. It would be nice to have Dolphin 
or DNG apps running here - but our customers needs are not this devices.
This can change and than we can react with technical clean & robust 
solutions.

So what will be in a year ? We will have a robust DNG & hopefully D7. We 
will have a number of industry apps running on DNG.
And on the OS Sts - maybe some other forks achieving better modularization & 
better GUI - Are full blockclosures already supported ?

It is nice that we have OS Smalltalks but they are commercially irrelevant.

Take the comparison with car technology - a VW Polo & a Daimler can be used 
to
drive from A to B. But I prefer to use a Daimler & I need to deliver 
excellent work for my customer to be able to buy the next Daimler & this I 
do since I was 22 years old. If I would stick to the OS world I would 
probably move from A to B soon or later in a huge Daimler car called "bus".

Frank
P.S back to VM development - tomorrow is an important next internal DNG 
release date & I need to test ... 


0
Frank
11/26/2009 10:34:19 PM
> Have you seen, how big e.g. the Pharo developer group has become? - A 
> free Smtalltalk - a big competitor, which runs on all platforms!!

As a visionary and smart person, you might be in a good position to 
offer this type of product yourself.  A free bleeding edge product to 
which the throngs will flock to and make you millions of dollars (or 
whatever currency you prefer).  Just a thought.  People don't even have 
to use the product, as long as it's free.  Just think "me".

If you decide to go in this direction please keep us informed.  I, for 
one, will stay tuned in, I would love to download it and maybe even use 
it.  In fact, I'll go one step further:  provide custom skins for it, 
e.g., a pink purse - for those extras, I might pay 5 bucks.

> Big companies are investing - millions of bucks, e.g. SAP (HPI).

The last time I saw SAP it had the most primitive interface I've ever 
seen for a major commercial software product.  I would hope that they 
have improved it since then, but my pointer to it still stands.  It is 
an examplar of why content succeeds _despite_ the UI in a corporate 
environment.  It is not a free product by any means, especially if you 
count in the extensive consulting required to install it and run it.

Best regards and keep on choogling,

-- Louis
0
Louis
11/26/2009 10:56:17 PM
>
> Frank
> P.S back to VM development - tomorrow is an important next internal DNG
> release date & I need to test ...

Good to know. I'm waiting for the new year, when hopefully the broader
community will have a chance to evaluate DNG.

Travis

0
Travis
11/27/2009 12:17:10 AM
Frank Lesser [LSW] schrieb:

> Take the comparison with car technology - a VW Polo & a Daimler can be used 
> to
> drive from A to B. But I prefer to use a Daimler & I need to deliver 
> excellent work for my customer to be able to buy the next Daimler & this I 
> do since I was 22 years old. If I would stick to the OS world I would 
> probably move from A to B soon or later in a huge Daimler car called "bus".
> 
> Frank

Yes. You really should drive Daimler. Because you are the only person, 
that has deeper knowledge about DNG - the VM!

So take care of you!

I will pray for you every day ;-)

OpenSource is not an option ... hmmm ... ok ... risky, risky for serious 
customers, that depend on Dolphin ... "Knowledge concentration" is a 
risky thing in business ...

Have fun, Guido Stepken
0
Guido
11/27/2009 12:47:57 AM
<snipped.>
> Yes. You really should drive Daimler. Because you are the only person, 
> that has deeper knowledge about DNG - the VM!

No - I am not the only one who has deeper knowledge about the VM
Here in Berlin we are 3 - I am the lead developer of it but Alejandro has 
meanwhile also deep knowledge of it &
has influenced latest developments much. There are further people who have 
contributed over the years.
Origins go back to the early 80ies where my VM hosted LISP languages & 5GL 
languages like Prolog, later in the 90ies OO languages first Actor,
later Smalltalk, This was the time I adopted the digital bytecode & 
primitive number compatibility.

And also customers can make changes & have a deeper knowlegde. To write 
industry quality Smalltalk software you need a deep knowledge how the
VM works.

DNG VM and also Dolphin VM is not that magic - the difference of both VMs in 
respect to others is that they integrate deep into Windows.
I know people who aquired VM source-code but without a VM expert they cannot 
make important changes.

VM's which bitblt loose the GUI market - also if you want to create an 
OpenGL GUI you need features which these VM's do not have.
So these VMs are prisons of Smalltalk code and applications using this VMs 
cannot make use of modern GUI features or other important concepts ( like 
multithreading , fast-callbacks etc )

Our VMs are written for Windows & Win32 - but that does not mean that cannot 
go to a different platform or a different processor architecture.
It cannot be made by using foreign technologies like LLVM.

Frank





0
Frank
11/27/2009 6:14:28 AM
Guido,

> Don't you see, that - assumed OpenSouce Development - a new OpenGL 
> STANDARD SMALLTALK-2010 GUI could emerge as public development effort 
> among Smalltalkers.

It seems that what you are really interested in is a version of Pharo 
with a new UI framework centred around OpenGL. Hey, this would be a cool 
project (and I can even think of something I'd use it for) but you 
should be badgering the Pharo developers not me. If you're right about 
Linus' Law, this will take over and you'll have it it months.

Dolphin is not this. It is not Open Source and it is inextricably linked 
to Windows. It's whole "raison d'etre" is to give people native Windows 
look and feel, which is something you explicitly don't want. Why would 
you think about starting at Dolphin and going where you want to go? It 
would be much easier to begin with Pharo surely?

> You didn't notice. The world is passing by and you sit there hacking 
> around, improving old stuff.

Regards

Andy Bower
0
Andy
11/27/2009 9:50:35 AM
Frank Lesser [LSW] schrieb:
....
> Origins go back to the early 80ies where my VM hosted LISP languages & 5GL 
> languages like Prolog, later in the 90ies OO languages first Actor,
> later Smalltalk, This was the time I adopted the digital bytecode & 
> primitive number compatibility.

"Customers today don't want to buy anonymous products, they want to 
know, there it's from, they want stories!" Walter Lange from Lange&Sons 
(german watch maker)

That's marketing!

Have fun, Guido Stepken
0
Guido
11/27/2009 5:26:22 PM
Andy Bower schrieb:
> Guido,
> 
>> Don't you see, that - assumed OpenSouce Development - a new OpenGL 
>> STANDARD SMALLTALK-2010 GUI could emerge as public development effort 
>> among Smalltalkers.

> Dolphin is not this. It is not Open Source and it is inextricably linked 
> to Windows. It's whole "raison d'etre" is to give people native Windows 
> look and feel

Have a look at - hmmm - e.g. Windows Media Player. Microsoft is leaving 
its own "look and feel". Funny shaped applications, gadgets, touch, 
remote media streaming begin to become mainstream!

Windows "native look and feel" is - IMHO - OUT!

New influence clearly comes from iPhone, Android ...

I feel the need for new usability concepts ... http://www.ommwriter.com 
is a perfect concept for new, fresh GUI, that probably could become 
maintstream. A perfect chance for smalltalkers to turn tables, that 
people come back to Smalltalk programming!

I am convinced, that Microsoft has nothing to counter that. (except 
buying Dolphin for several million bucks)

regards, Guido Stepken
0
Guido
11/27/2009 5:45:31 PM
On 27 Nov., 18:45, Guido Stepken <gstep...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Have a look at - hmmm - e.g. Windows Media Player. Microsoft is leaving
> its own "look and feel". Funny shaped applications, gadgets, touch,
> remote media streaming begin to become mainstream!
>
> Windows "native look and feel" is - IMHO - OUT!
>
Hi Guido,

the others might foregive me for feeding trolls, the first thing is to
switch those 'new' skins back to 'old' fashion look. The reason is
simple, I want to work with my computer, I don't want to play around
and waiste my time searching where the feature went...

The worst sample is the 'new' Microsoft Office above 2003 version. I
still did not found all the features I am used to in my 'old' Office.
I am shure there are there somewere...

I also know that my customers even have trouble to use a computer at
all. So the usability should be clear and clean - like the 'old'
Windows skin. Moving, apearing or disapearing options, like those some
childish playing programmars implement would disturb by customers, I
am shure!

Think about people that use the computer (your software) as a tool
(box). You wouldn't like it if your drill-machine changes the size of
your drill if it thinks this would fit better!

Cheers,
Klaus
0
klausk
11/30/2009 9:17:01 AM
Hi Klaus!

Well, surely Andy considers me as troll :)

Please have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYY-g6ionzM

Touch needs complete different usability concepts. One, that works for 
touch and desktop is http://Ommwriter.com

Also nice to see: Windows7 touch concepts: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_r7IEE0myo&feature=related

But at the moment Microsoft IMHO has a wrong strategy:

The world changes dramatically. Car manufacurers cooperate, bring new 
standards: AUTOSAR. ´┐ŻOS (windriver) and Linux on top. China's going 
Linux, because of - power consumption. ARM/MIPS processors deliver 
2000MIPS plus OpenGL (ES) and have powerconsumption of unter 2 Watt at 
full power. Thats, what's needed to "computerize" whole Asia. Extremely 
low power computers, billions of them will be introduced. Otherwise it 
won't work.

There are hundreds of million dollars going into new concepts at the 
moment. Embedded software companies explode. Even we need those low 
power touch computers for medicines in hospitals, for administration, 
mobile offices, thin clients for cloud computing, e.t.c.

Plans: Reduction of administration costs, LEAN in manufacturer companies 
- having all informations accessible everywhere - short ways of decisions.

And - therefore we need new usability concepts. Smalltalk IMHO is one of 
the best programming languages for that, and Dolphin Smalltalk is on the 
wrong way, same like Microsoft with their concept bakery.

regards, Guido Stepken

0
Guido
11/30/2009 2:48:28 PM
Reply: