f



Right-to-left languages?

Hi all,

Can anyone please report the status of rendering of right-to-left
languages in tk? I develop an LGPL NLP-related application
(http://www.ellogon.org) and recently I got a question about supporting
the Hebrew language. I need information on how the text widget
can render these kind of languages and possible tkhtml.

I feel a little akward for asking such a question :-) but I have no
experence with right-to-left languages...

Regards,

George


0
petasis (1405)
8/27/2004 12:47:46 PM
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Hi Georgios,


"Georgios Petasis" <petasis@iit.demokritos.gr> writes:
> Can anyone please report the status of rendering of right-to-left
> languages in tk? I develop an LGPL NLP-related application
> (http://www.ellogon.org) and recently I got a question about
> supporting the Hebrew language.

Bidi is not supported on Tk yet.  "Not supported" has different
consequences depending on the widget and the underlying platform
toolkit.  For read-only widgets there are platform specific
work-arounds and on some native controls (like menus on Windows and
Mac OS X) it just works automatically.

You may want to look into gnocl, the Tcl binding for the Gnome
toolkit.  Gnome is supposed to support bidi fine.  I have never tried
it myself though.


benny
0
8/27/2004 1:26:18 PM
Georgios Petasis wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Can anyone please report the status of rendering of right-to-left
> languages in tk? I develop an LGPL NLP-related application
> (http://www.ellogon.org) and recently I got a question about supporting
> the Hebrew language. I need information on how the text widget
> can render these kind of languages and possible tkhtml.
> 
> I feel a little akward for asking such a question :-) but I have no
> experence with right-to-left languages...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George

Maybe <http://wiki.tcl.tk/1126> is a good start?

Regards,

Arjen
0
arjen.markus (2628)
8/27/2004 1:32:35 PM
"Benjamin Riefenstahl" <Benjamin.Riefenstahl@epost.de> wrote in message
news:m3brgw4sqt.fsf@seneca.benny.turtle-trading.net...
> Hi Georgios,
>
>
> "Georgios Petasis" <petasis@iit.demokritos.gr> writes:
> > Can anyone please report the status of rendering of right-to-left
> > languages in tk? I develop an LGPL NLP-related application
> > (http://www.ellogon.org) and recently I got a question about
> > supporting the Hebrew language.
>
> Bidi is not supported on Tk yet.  "Not supported" has different
> consequences depending on the widget and the underlying platform
> toolkit.  For read-only widgets there are platform specific
> work-arounds and on some native controls (like menus on Windows and
> Mac OS X) it just works automatically.

As a first step, I am looking support only for the text widget, in readonly
state.
I simply want to display Hebrew :-)

>
> You may want to look into gnocl, the Tcl binding for the Gnome
> toolkit.  Gnome is supposed to support bidi fine.  I have never tried
> it myself though.

Unfortunatelly, gnocl is not an option for my case. I need a solution for
at least linux+windows, and I suppose gnocl would be difficult to install
& maintain under windows. Not to mention that may be licensing issues,
as my app is LGPL...

Thanks,

George


0
petasis (1405)
8/27/2004 9:58:26 PM
Dear Arjen,

Thank you very much for your reply. I was already aware about the relevant
wiki pages, but I haven't yet concluded if they contain information I can
use :-)

Regards,

George

"Arjen Markus" <arjen.markus@wldelft.nl> wrote in message
news:412F37F3.D561EEC8@wldelft.nl...
> Georgios Petasis wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Can anyone please report the status of rendering of right-to-left
> > languages in tk? I develop an LGPL NLP-related application
> > (http://www.ellogon.org) and recently I got a question about supporting
> > the Hebrew language. I need information on how the text widget
> > can render these kind of languages and possible tkhtml.
> >
> > I feel a little akward for asking such a question :-) but I have no
> > experence with right-to-left languages...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > George
>
> Maybe <http://wiki.tcl.tk/1126> is a good start?
>
> Regards,
>
> Arjen


0
petasis (1405)
8/27/2004 10:00:15 PM
Georgios Petasis wrote:
> As a first step, I am looking support only for the text widget, in readonly
> state.
> I simply want to display Hebrew :-)

If this is the case, then Tk has all you need and the wiki pages
referenced previously (in particular "Heblish") has the code you
need.  You can contact Richard Suchenwirth directly as well, as
he has done this often.

-- 
     Jeff Hobbs, The Tcl Guy
     http://www.ActiveState.com/, a division of Sophos
0
jeffh1 (361)
8/28/2004 4:29:10 AM
Hi Georgios,


"Georgios Petasis" <petasis@iit.demokritos.gr> writes:
> As a first step, I am looking support only for the text widget, in
> readonly state.  I simply want to display Hebrew :-)

If you don't need anything fancy, the [label] widget may be enough for
you, depending on requirements.

On Unix/Linux you will need to do line breaks and bidi rearrangement
yourself because the drawing engine doesn't.  The same probably on
Windows 9x/Me and NT4 if you care for those platforms.

On Windows W2K/XP the OS drawing engine does bidi glyph rearrangement
so you should just need to set right-alignment and use a hebrew font
(do not use a non-hebrew font and depend on automatic font
substitution, really select a hebrew font, otherwise the glyph order
will be right but word order will be wrong).

On Mac, Unicode text rendering is not yet ready at all.  When it's
ready, it should automatically behave similarly to Windows W2K/XP.


benny
0
8/29/2004 1:18:22 PM
Hi Georgios,


Benjamin Riefenstahl <Benjamin.Riefenstahl@epost.de> writes:
> On Windows W2K/XP the OS drawing engine does bidi glyph rearrangement

I forgot to say that this may require the hebrew language support to
be installed.  This comes in either the IE hebrew support, or in the
hebrew keyboard support, which you can install through the keyboard
control panel.


benny
0
8/29/2004 2:41:32 PM
"Benjamin Riefenstahl" <Benjamin.Riefenstahl@epost.de> wrote in message
news:m34qmmhyld.fsf@seneca.benny.turtle-trading.net...
> Hi Georgios,
>
>
> "Georgios Petasis" <petasis@iit.demokritos.gr> writes:
> > As a first step, I am looking support only for the text widget, in
> > readonly state.  I simply want to display Hebrew :-)
>
> If you don't need anything fancy, the [label] widget may be enough for
> you, depending on requirements.
>
> On Unix/Linux you will need to do line breaks and bidi rearrangement
> yourself because the drawing engine doesn't.  The same probably on
> Windows 9x/Me and NT4 if you care for those platforms.

This seems to be extremely difficult in my case. I want to display Hebrew
in a text widget, and I have character offsets that I want to add tags.
If I modify the text to be displayed & insert tabs & new lines (as I think a
proc from D.K. Fellows does), I have to somehow make also transformations
to these character offsets. I think this is something very difficult to be
done by
me :-)

>
> On Windows W2K/XP the OS drawing engine does bidi glyph rearrangement
> so you should just need to set right-alignment and use a hebrew font
> (do not use a non-hebrew font and depend on automatic font
> substitution, really select a hebrew font, otherwise the glyph order
> will be right but word order will be wrong).

I can see Hebrew in my browser, under both linux & windows, so I suppose
there is no need to install anything more. When you say that I need to set
right-alignment, is this through a text widget option, or do I need to
insert
tabs & new lines?

>
> On Mac, Unicode text rendering is not yet ready at all.  When it's
> ready, it should automatically behave similarly to Windows W2K/XP.

Well, my app does not support Mac at all :-)

Thanks,

George


0
petasis (1405)
8/29/2004 5:18:32 PM
Georgios Petasis wrote:
> 
> Dear Arjen,
> 
> Thank you very much for your reply. I was already aware about the relevant
> wiki pages, but I haven't yet concluded if they contain information I can
> use :-)
> 

I ought to have mentioned Richard S. - I remember his delightful
presentation in 
Nuremberg on the subject very well!

Regards,

Arjen
0
arjen.markus (2628)
8/30/2004 8:12:07 AM

Arjen Markus wrote:
> Georgios Petasis wrote:
> 
>>Dear Arjen,
>>
>>Thank you very much for your reply. I was already aware about the relevant
>>wiki pages, but I haven't yet concluded if they contain information I can
>>use :-)
>>
> 
> 
> I ought to have mentioned Richard S. - I remember his delightful
> presentation in 
> Nuremberg on the subject very well!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Arjen

If it's strictly about presenting hebrew in some form, maybe this page 
was forgotten:

    http://wiki.tcl.tk/hgedit

in fact that application allows hebrew typing from right to left in a 
text widget and will work everywhere. (It's got no special characters, 
though).

Regards,

    Theo

0
theover (24)
8/30/2004 11:20:07 AM
Hi Georgios,


"Georgios Petasis" <petasis@iit.demokritos.gr> writes:
> When you say that I need to set right-alignment, is this through a
> text widget option, or do I need to insert tabs & new lines?

For [text] that would be a tag with "-justify right", I guess.
[label] also has a "-justify" option.


benny
0
8/30/2004 2:44:21 PM
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I'd like to make two kinds of marginpar, one of which is always in the left margin, and the other is always in the right margin, even when using twoside mode. Some pages will have both kinds. Now I know I can force all the marginpars to the left using \@mparswitchfalse\reversemarginpar I've tried something like \newcommand[1]{\leftmarginpar}{\marginpar{#1}} \newcommand[1]{\rightmarginpar}{\reversemarginpar\marginpar{#1}\normalmarginpar} (which does nothing) and \newcommand[1]{\rightmarginpar}{\reversemarginpar\marginpar{#1}} which will have an adverse effect for the next marginpar if it's too close.l I've even tried \newcommand[1]{\rightmarginpar}{\marginparsep{-400pt}\marginpar{#1}} I knew how to do this using \marn, but not with \marginpar. thanks John Burt Well, since the command is always the last thing on the line, I solved it with hfill and rlap, so a sophisticated solution didn't turn out to be necessary. john ...

Web resources about - Right-to-left languages? - comp.lang.tcl

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