I seem to have a problem with particular bits of kit not interworking. I
resurrected an old Technics KN800 keyboard, and connected it to an EMU
0404 USB interface (on a linux system, but that's not the issue).

The EMU's midi out will drive the keyboard, but the EMU's midi-data-in
light remains obstinately off when I try to receive from the keyboard.

The keyboard will work happily (modulo being non-GM box) when connected
to a Yamaha piano, both ways. The piano will at least cause the EMU's
midi in light to appear (apparently a clock signal; as the piano's
downstairs and the computer's upstairs it wasn't possible to do more
than just take the EMU to the piano for a gross go/no-go check).

So it looks as though everything is fundamentally functional, it's jut
that the keyboard output doesn't seem to like the EMU's input.

I've never heard of particular bits of midi kit not interworking like
this, nor can I find anything relevant on the web. Any thoughts would be
most welcome please!


-- 
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

Mike Scott wrote:
> I seem to have a problem with particular bits of kit not interworking. I
> resurrected an old Technics KN800 keyboard, and connected it to an EMU
> 0404 USB interface (on a linux system, but that's not the issue).
> 
> The EMU's midi out will drive the keyboard, but the EMU's midi-data-in
> light remains obstinately off when I try to receive from the keyboard.
> 
> The keyboard will work happily (modulo being non-GM box) when connected
> to a Yamaha piano, both ways. The piano will at least cause the EMU's
> midi in light to appear (apparently a clock signal;

Or Active Sensing.
Do you get more light effects when you play something?

> as the piano's downstairs and the computer's upstairs it wasn't possible
> to do more than just take the EMU to the piano for a gross go/no-go check).

Maybe the 0404 is in some different mode when not connected to a computer?

> So it looks as though everything is fundamentally functional, it's jut
> that the keyboard output doesn't seem to like the EMU's input.

You mentioned only the light, but not the actual data.  Did you check
whether MIDI bytes arrives (at the lowest level, with "amidi -d -a")?


Regards,
Clemens

On 12/06/2010 06:45 PM, Clemens Ladisch wrote:

> You mentioned only the light, but not the actual data.  Did you check
> whether MIDI bytes arrives (at the lowest level, with "amidi -d -a")?

    "aseqdump -l" and "aseqdump -p II:JJ" can do the job, too.

-- 
Ma coiffeuse est formidable - http://sonia.buvette.org/

On 06/12/10 18:23, Tonton Th wrote:
> On 12/06/2010 06:45 PM, Clemens Ladisch wrote:
> 
>> You mentioned only the light, but not the actual data.  Did you check
>> whether MIDI bytes arrives (at the lowest level, with "amidi -d -a")?
> 
>    "aseqdump -l" and "aseqdump -p II:JJ" can do the job, too.
> 

Sorry, should have been clearer. I started with rosegarden, then
kmidimon, then looked at the midi-in light when I couldn't see any data
landing. All dead as the dodo, at least for input from the kn800.

But I've tried aseqdump as suggested:-
mike@picard:~$ aseqdump -p 20:0
Waiting for data. Press Ctrl+C to end.
Source  Event                  Ch  Data
 20:0   Reset
 20:0   Control change          0, controller 63, value 19

and that's all. The two apparent events were caused by powering the
keyboard up and down (and then weren't repeatable); zilch from playing.

Are midi line drivers prone to aging, I wonder?


-- 
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

In article <8m4ln0Fc3cU1@mid.individual.net>,
Clemens Ladisch  <clemens@ladisch.de> wrote:
>Mike Scott wrote:
>> I seem to have a problem with particular bits of kit not interworking. I
>> resurrected an old Technics KN800 keyboard, and connected it to an EMU
>> 0404 USB interface (on a linux system, but that's not the issue).
>> 
>> The EMU's midi out will drive the keyboard, but the EMU's midi-data-in
>> light remains obstinately off when I try to receive from the keyboard.
>> 
>> The keyboard will work happily (modulo being non-GM box) when connected
>> to a Yamaha piano, both ways. The piano will at least cause the EMU's
>> midi in light to appear (apparently a clock signal;
>
>> as the piano's downstairs and the computer's upstairs it wasn't possible
>> to do more than just take the EMU to the piano for a gross go/no-go check).
>
>Maybe the 0404 is in some different mode when not connected to a computer?

This is certainly the case with my MidiSport 2x2.  If it's powered, but
not initialized by the computer, it acts as a 'merge' box.  (If it's
unpowered, one can only use it as a 'through' device.)  However, *no*
MIDI activity lights indicate anything in the merge state -- only the
power light is (steadily) on.

>
>> So it looks as though everything is fundamentally functional, it's jut
>> that the keyboard output doesn't seem to like the EMU's input.
>
Is it possible that somehow the Linux driver is not suitable?  I don't
know the 0404, but for a while USB devices were not standardized, so
maybe your Linux box can set up the output, but not the input...

You really ought to see if you can borrow a known working keyboard
[or move your computer downstairs... (:-)] to see if the problem is at
the USB end.

Cheers,
	-- Pete --

In article <idif2q$jtl$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Mike Scott  <usenet.13@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>I seem to have a problem with particular bits of kit not interworking. I
>resurrected an old Technics KN800 keyboard, and connected it to an EMU
>0404 USB interface (on a linux system, but that's not the issue).
>
Are you *sure* that's not the issue...? (:-/)  I just did a quick
search on "emu 0404 linux", and saw all sorts of comments that the
unit is *not* compatible with Linux!  Some of them go back a ways,
so maybe things have changed, but unless you know better, I'd double
check...

Cheers,
	-- Pete --


-- 
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On 12/06/2010 08:59 PM, Mike Scott wrote:

>>> You mentioned only the light, but not the actual data.  Did you check
>>> whether MIDI bytes arrives (at the lowest level, with "amidi -d -a")?
>>
>>     "aseqdump -l" and "aseqdump -p II:JJ" can do the job, too.

> But I've tried aseqdump as suggested:-
> mike@picard:~$ aseqdump -p 20:0
> Waiting for data. Press Ctrl+C to end.
> Source  Event                  Ch  Data
>   20:0   Reset
>   20:0   Control change          0, controller 63, value 19
>
> and that's all. The two apparent events were caused by powering the
> keyboard up and down (and then weren't repeatable); zilch from playing.
>
> Are midi line drivers prone to aging, I wonder?

    You mean "electronic" drivers ? Sometime, they died...

    There are others cases : may be the firmware of your keyboard is
    in a strange state (wrong parameters memorized ?) and need a
    soft or hard reset, check the user manual.

-- 
Ma coiffeuse est formidable - http://sonia.buvette.org/

On 07/12/2010 02:49, Pete wrote:
> In article<idif2q$jtl$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Mike Scott<usenet.13@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid>  wrote:
>> I seem to have a problem with particular bits of kit not interworking. I
>> resurrected an old Technics KN800 keyboard, and connected it to an EMU
>> 0404 USB interface (on a linux system, but that's not the issue).
>>
> Are you *sure* that's not the issue...? (:-/)  I just did a quick
> search on "emu 0404 linux", and saw all sorts of comments that the
> unit is *not* compatible with Linux!  Some of them go back a ways,
> so maybe things have changed, but unless you know better, I'd double
> check...

Yes, I'm sure. A lot of the info on the net is well out of date. I've 
been using it as a guitar input with rakarrak as an effects box - nicely 
covers up my inability to play :-) Main snag is that the sample rate is 
fixed at 48kHz, but that's no big deal for what I want, and there's not 
enough bandwidth for full-duplex operation.

But to the midi - I remembered the cheap keyboard my wife keeps hidden 
away, which turned out (to my surprise) to have midi connections. Again, 
no computer, but the midi-in light flashes regularly when connected, 
suggesting that that will talk to the EMU. She has agreed to risk my 
taking it off to the study for further analysis..... but I'm pretty 
convinced this will work. Hopefully today.

I don't suppose anyone has schematics of the KN800?? - given its 
antiquity, it might be worth taking the lid off and seeing about 
replacing the line driver ICs.

-- 
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

On 07/12/10 08:15, Mike Scott wrote:
.....
> But to the midi - I remembered the cheap keyboard my wife keeps hidden
> away, which turned out (to my surprise) to have midi connections. Again,
> no computer, but the midi-in light flashes regularly when connected,
> suggesting that that will talk to the EMU. She has agreed to risk my
> taking it off to the study for further analysis..... but I'm pretty
> convinced this will work. Hopefully today.

OK, that proves the issue. with that one (it's a Yamaha PSR275) plugged
in, aseqdump shows a stream of Clock and Active Sensing events, with
interspersed Note On and Note Off events. It works.

I'm also quite sure the KN800 has been set up correctly (because I did
get it to control another piano's synthesiser).

Which means there's something wierd with the KN800. So the next query
stands:

> 
> I don't suppose anyone has schematics of the KN800?? - given its
> antiquity, it might be worth taking the lid off and seeing about
> replacing the line driver ICs.
> 


-- 
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

In article <idkto1$h2m$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Mike Scott  <usenet.13@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>On 07/12/10 08:15, Mike Scott wrote:
>....
>> But to the midi - I remembered the cheap keyboard my wife keeps hidden
>> away, which turned out (to my surprise) to have midi connections. Again,
>> no computer, but the midi-in light flashes regularly when connected,
>> suggesting that that will talk to the EMU. She has agreed to risk my
>> taking it off to the study for further analysis..... but I'm pretty
>> convinced this will work. Hopefully today.
>
>OK, that proves the issue. with that one (it's a Yamaha PSR275) plugged
>in, aseqdump shows a stream of Clock and Active Sensing events, with
>interspersed Note On and Note Off events. It works.
>
>I'm also quite sure the KN800 has been set up correctly (because I did
>get it to control another piano's synthesiser).
>
Well that's a stumper for sure...  I've never heard of an incompatibility
like that before.  Maybe the KN800 has an inadequate drive level or
something?  I'm out of ideas I'm afraid.

Good luck!
	-- Pete --



-- 
============================================================================
The address in the header is a Spam Bucket -- replies will not be seen...
(If you do need to email, replace the account name with my true name.)
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On 07/12/10 18:14, Pete wrote:
> In article <idkto1$h2m$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Mike Scott  <usenet.13@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>> On 07/12/10 08:15, Mike Scott wrote:
>> ....
>>> But to the midi - I remembered the cheap keyboard my wife keeps hidden
>>> away, which turned out (to my surprise) to have midi connections. Again,
>>> no computer, but the midi-in light flashes regularly when connected,
>>> suggesting that that will talk to the EMU. She has agreed to risk my
>>> taking it off to the study for further analysis..... but I'm pretty
>>> convinced this will work. Hopefully today.
>>
>> OK, that proves the issue. with that one (it's a Yamaha PSR275) plugged
>> in, aseqdump shows a stream of Clock and Active Sensing events, with
>> interspersed Note On and Note Off events. It works.
>>
>> I'm also quite sure the KN800 has been set up correctly (because I did
>> get it to control another piano's synthesiser).
>>
> Well that's a stumper for sure...  I've never heard of an incompatibility
> like that before.  Maybe the KN800 has an inadequate drive level or
> something?  I'm out of ideas I'm afraid.

My thoughts too.

Looks like it's lid-off time; although I'd really rather have the
schematics first. These are on the net, but pricey and only from the US.
I'm guessing that as a 20-year-old bit of circuitry, it won't be /too/
heavily integrated - hopefully a standard ancient driver IC of some sort.

> 
> Good luck!

Thanks.... I might need it! (And my thanks to others for their comments
as well, of course)


-- 
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

In article <idm6el$b01$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Mike Scott  <usenet.13@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>On 07/12/10 18:14, Pete wrote:
>>>
>> Well that's a stumper for sure...  I've never heard of an incompatibility
>> like that before.  Maybe the KN800 has an inadequate drive level or
>> something?  I'm out of ideas I'm afraid.
>
>My thoughts too.
>

I did have one more afterthought...

If it *is* some kind of level problem, that makes the KN800 unable
to drive the USB, maybe a MIDI-THROUGH box might bump it up enough
to work.  Maplin used to sell them pretty cheap...

-- Pete --


-- 
============================================================================
The address in the header is a Spam Bucket -- replies will not be seen...
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On 08/12/10 01:50, Pete wrote:
> In article <idm6el$b01$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Mike Scott  <usenet.13@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>> On 07/12/10 18:14, Pete wrote:
>>>>
>>> Well that's a stumper for sure...  I've never heard of an incompatibility
>>> like that before.  Maybe the KN800 has an inadequate drive level or
>>> something?  I'm out of ideas I'm afraid.
>>
>> My thoughts too.
>>
> 
> I did have one more afterthought...
> 
> If it *is* some kind of level problem, that makes the KN800 unable
> to drive the USB, maybe a MIDI-THROUGH box might bump it up enough
> to work.  Maplin used to sell them pretty cheap...

A good thought, although maplin don't seem to have such a thing on their
website. And the problem could still be marginal components in /each/ of
the EMU and kn800 - so no guarantees as to whether it would work.

Given how cheap keyboards are these days, I'd possibly be better off
buying a new one and getting GM into the bargain. I'll think on it, and
hope my wife doesn't miss her keyboard too soon.... :-)

Thanks.


-- 
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England