If one is playing back a pre-recorded MIDI file, are there controllers with
which one can put in things like ritardando, accelerando, fermata,
luftpause, etc. in real time while the music is playing back? Preferably
with a foot controller, or a wireless controller one could hold in the hand?

Let me explain more my particular usage: With elementary school choruses I
teach, I usually do not have an accompanist. I make MIDI accompaniments,
that I play back from my laptop into a stereo or amp for many of the songs.
Sometimes, if I want the song to have ritardando, fermata, etc., I program
that into the accompaniment. Of course, that is always exactly the same
every time it is played back. And such a fermata is not a real fermata, in
that its length is not indeterminate, set by the performer or conductor, but
the note lasts a set amount that I programmed it for. When I conduct such a
piece, unlike with a real accompanist, in which the the accompanist would
watch me as the choir does, and I could hold the note for the length of time
I felt like, I have to follow the recording. Even though I created the
recording, that makes it rather mechanical.

It would be nice to be able to really control such parameters in real time,
as if it were a live accompanist. (I could see that also as an advantage for
a musician playing with MIDI accompaniment--to be able to control some of
the aspects of the accompaniment in real time--as if it were really
following him/her, rather than being a set recording.) I'm wondering if
there is a way to do that. As my hands would be waving in the air, directing
the singers, I couldn't do it with hands on a keyboard or knobs and sliders.
It would have to be with foot pedals, or better yet (but less likely I think
to be available) some kind of small wireless controller I could hold in my
hand while conducting.

I have the EDIROL PCR 30 USB MIDI controller, and besides being a keyboard
controller, with a lot of knobs and sliders, it has foot pedal inputs. Is
there any way to configure those foot pedal inputs to do the kinds of
controlling I mention above?

The sequencer I use is Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, although I could get something
else (including possibly upgrading to Sonar, which I haven't yet done) if
that would work better for such control.

Any ideas?

MS wrote:

>If one is playing back a pre-recorded MIDI file, are there controllers with
>which one can put in things like ritardando, accelerando, fermata,
>luftpause, etc. in real time while the music is playing back? Preferably
>with a foot controller, or a wireless controller one could hold in the hand?
>
>Let me explain more my particular usage: With elementary school choruses I
>teach, I usually do not have an accompanist. I make MIDI accompaniments,
>that I play back from my laptop into a stereo or amp for many of the songs.
>Sometimes, if I want the song to have ritardando, fermata, etc., I program
>that into the accompaniment. Of course, that is always exactly the same
>every time it is played back. And such a fermata is not a real fermata, in
>that its length is not indeterminate, set by the performer or conductor, but
>the note lasts a set amount that I programmed it for. When I conduct such a
>piece, unlike with a real accompanist, in which the the accompanist would
>watch me as the choir does, and I could hold the note for the length of time
>I felt like, I have to follow the recording. Even though I created the
>recording, that makes it rather mechanical.
>
>It would be nice to be able to really control such parameters in real time,
>as if it were a live accompanist. (I could see that also as an advantage for
>a musician playing with MIDI accompaniment--to be able to control some of
>the aspects of the accompaniment in real time--as if it were really
>following him/her, rather than being a set recording.) I'm wondering if
>there is a way to do that. As my hands would be waving in the air, directing
>the singers, I couldn't do it with hands on a keyboard or knobs and sliders.
>It would have to be with foot pedals, or better yet (but less likely I think
>to be available) some kind of small wireless controller I could hold in my
>hand while conducting.
>
>I have the EDIROL PCR 30 USB MIDI controller, and besides being a keyboard
>controller, with a lot of knobs and sliders, it has foot pedal inputs. Is
>there any way to configure those foot pedal inputs to do the kinds of
>controlling I mention above?
>
>The sequencer I use is Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, although I could get something
>else (including possibly upgrading to Sonar, which I haven't yet done) if
>that would work better for such control.
>
>Any ideas?

There are no controllers defined by the MIDI protocol specifically intended
to control the rate of sequencers' playback.  Many sequencers can, however,
operate in external sync modes.  Playback timing is controlled in such modes 
by received clock messages rather than by internal reference.  External sync
is typically used to synchronize playback to devices such as tape recorders
that play at a steady rate but could be used to accomplish the effects you
seek.  I know of no devices that support such operation, however.

A device that does this might support setting minimum and maximum tempos
and provide a continuous controller, such as a foot pedal or linear
potentiometer, to control clock rate variation between these limits. It
might be handy to include a detent in the middle of the controller's
travel to allow conveniently setting a nominal tempo.  This would support
real time control of ritardando and accelerando.

This device might also include a momentray pushbutton switch that supports
fermata and luftpause by inhibiting clocking when pushed.  Another switch
used to generate start and stop messages might be handy.

The basic design of such a device would not be difficult.  It would
require a microcontroller programmed to read the controller via an analog
to digital converter, read the switches, and transmit the messages via a
UART.  The issues of the user interface to set the parameters and packaging
the device so as to be managable by a conductor would be far more challenging.

I am an embedded microprocessor engineer capable of developing such a
device.  I am certain, however, that you would balk at the development
cost to produce it on a custom basis.  Please do feel free to ask any
questions, though.  I charge nothing to discuss possibilities!

-- 
========================================================================
          Michael Kesti            |  "And like, one and one don't make
                                   |   two, one and one make one."
          mkesti@gv.net            |          - The Who, Bargain

                    MS <ms@nospam.com> wrote:

> Any ideas?

Of course, Max/MSP is fully able to do that (and so much more !), but a
little experience in the fundamentals of MIDI is required. Available on
both platforms (Mac and PC), the full version can be downloaded and
tried for free for 30 days at the fowlowing address : 
<http://www.cycling74.com/index.html>

In fact I'm not sure that 30 days could be enough to read (and
understand !) the included owner's manual, but let's try :-)
(before comming back with questions :-))

Concerning realtime multipurpose MIDI controllers (which can be deeply
integrated with Max), and despites the fact it is a french only site,
you could find various captors (ultrasonics, infrared, sensitive carpet,
heat/move, pressure/contact etc.) at the following address : 
<http://www.interface-z.com/>

hth, 
-- 
G�rald ATHANASE 

"Michael R. Kesti" <mkesti@gv.net> wrote in message
news:40404BC1.718ED031@gv.net...
> I am an embedded microprocessor engineer capable of developing such a
> device.  I am certain, however, that you would balk at the development
> cost to produce it on a custom basis.  Please do feel free to ask any
> questions, though.  I charge nothing to discuss possibilities!

Probably so! (regarding my financing the development cost! I'm only a mere
teacher!) However, it's a good idea. Why don't you create it, and put it on
the market? I would bet there would be many more buyers besides myself. This
would be a major expansion of the possibilities of MIDI. You could probably
sell the idea to a company that makes MIDI hardware controllers like Edirol,
M-Audio, Korg, Roland, Yamaha, etc., etc. Actually, they might cover the
development costs. Present the idea to them.

"Gerald" <Gerald@alussinan.org> wrote in message
news:1g9v0r8.81gzjg1dmd1c0N%Gerald@alussinan.org...
>                     MS <ms@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Any ideas?
>
> Of course, Max/MSP is fully able to do that (and so much more !), but a
> little experience in the fundamentals of MIDI is required. Available on
> both platforms (Mac and PC), the full version can be downloaded and
> tried for free for 30 days at the fowlowing address :
> <http://www.cycling74.com/index.html>

I assume that is a software application. What kind of hardware would one use
with that as controller?

Are you the developer of the software named above?

"Gerald" <Gerald@alussinan.org> wrote in message
news:1g9v0r8.81gzjg1dmd1c0N%Gerald@alussinan.org...
>                     MS <ms@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Any ideas?
>
> Of course, Max/MSP is fully able to do that (and so much more !), but a
> little experience in the fundamentals of MIDI is required. Available on
> both platforms (Mac and PC), the full version can be downloaded and
> tried for free for 30 days at the fowlowing address :
> <http://www.cycling74.com/index.html>

Looking at the web page you give the URL for above, I see nothing that
indicates that this product has anything to do with real time control of
MIDI playback. Here is a description of that product:

"Max/MSP is a graphical programming environment, which means you create your
own software using a visual toolkit of objects, and connect them together
with patch cords."


Somehow, I don't see the connection with what I was asking about. I wasn't
asking about creating my own software graphically using a visual toolkit of
objects. That doesn't have the slightest relation to what I was inquiring
about.

                    MS <ms@nospam.com> wrote:

> Somehow, I don't see the connection with what I was asking about. I wasn't
> asking about creating my own software graphically using a visual toolkit of
> objects. That doesn't have the slightest relation to what I was inquiring
> about.

1/ The fact that *you* don't *see* the connection doesn't mean that this
connection doesn't exist.

2/ As far as *anything* which is in a MIDI data format can be treated in
*any* way by Max means that the relation to what you were inquiring is
an full evidence for anybody who knows MIDI and Max (modifying a MIDI
data stream in realtime).

3/ Especially because a lot of external physical controls can be used
with Max, including these I suggested in the second URL.

4/ In fact, there are *several* different ways to achieve to a good
solution of this problem using Max, depending on the system you are
running. You could use, for example, the various sequencing objects
available (loading your sequence within Max and acting via their
modifiers), OR create an applet that modifies the datas "online" between
another sequencer and the sound generator, OR merge some external datas
to these of the sequencer, OR act directly on the programming of the
sound generator...

5/ It seems that you didn't download Max's owners manual (which is for
free). I can't (and I don't want !) oblige you in any way to be curious
or trust me. Understanding the logical consequences of a SINGLE object
of Max can take weeks or months for some of them, for somebody having a
good knowledge of what MIDI is ...and there are over 500 different
"objects" available in this software !

6/ answering to your question in the other thread : I (alas !) am not
the developer of this software and have absolutely no interest in its
promotion. It was originally written in the late 80' by Miller Puckette
at Ircam (Paris) and later distributed by Opcode and further by David
Zicarelli (Cycling). An opensource version (jMax) slightly different and
less elaborated is available at Ircam (www.ircam.fr) and Miller Puckette
himself is working now on something again slightly different : Pure Data
(free and opensource) <http://www.pure-data.org/about/>

7/ These answers ARE real answers to your question BUT I assume that
they could not be recevable to you (yet ?). Maybe could they be useful
to somebody else ? Or to you later on ? That was my only intention. Best
regards,
 
-- 
G�rald ATHANASE 

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:21:00 -0800, MS <ms@nospam.com> wrote:

> If one is playing back a pre-recorded MIDI file, are there controllers 
> with which one can put in things like ritardando, accelerando, fermata,
> luftpause, etc. in real time while the music is playing back? Preferably
> with a foot controller, or a wireless controller one could hold in the 
> hand?

The Behringer FCB1010 looks like it can do what you want -

http://www.altrion.org/fcb1010/

plus the price looks good too ~$130 U.S.

Regards,
Brian

Which controllers would I program the foot pedal to, to get the effects I
mentioned? How would I set something like a fermata and luftpause in the
sequence?

"Brian Grainger" <granam@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:opr33lmsh78u8pov@news.fm.shawcable.net...
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:21:00 -0800, MS <ms@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > If one is playing back a pre-recorded MIDI file, are there controllers
> > with which one can put in things like ritardando, accelerando, fermata,
> > luftpause, etc. in real time while the music is playing back? Preferably
> > with a foot controller, or a wireless controller one could hold in the
> > hand?
>
> The Behringer FCB1010 looks like it can do what you want -
>
> http://www.altrion.org/fcb1010/
>
> plus the price looks good too ~$130 U.S.
>
> Regards,
> Brian

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:20:20 -0800, MS <ms@nospam.com> wrote:

> Which controllers would I program the foot pedal to, to get the effects I
> mentioned? How would I set something like a fermata and luftpause in the
> sequence?

Good questions, which I'm not able to answer since I don't own one of 
those units. I was going by the detailed description I read in the 
programming reference, which showed how to program the maximum and minimum 
delay parameters into the effects pedals.

You can probably find out quite quickly whether or not it will meet your 
needs by posting some questions on the Yahoo user group which has a link 
on the webpage I gave you the url for.

Regards,
Brian