.... for MSBuild.

Apparently so, because all I can find for a reference manual is an MSDN
web-site with

   -  No index
   -  No single-page format, whether HTML, PDF, TXT, or even friggin' DOC

You can't find anything about MSBuild without knowing about it already.
Googling it works better!  

Microsoft could really learn something from GNU, in my opinion.  I can
download a full reference manual for gcc, for example.  In many different
formats.

-- 
The Rabbits				The Cow
Here is a verse about rabbits		The cow is of the bovine ilk;
That doesn't mention their habits.	One end is moo, the other, milk.
		-- Ogden Nash

Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
> ... for MSBuild.
> 
> Apparently so, because all I can find for a reference manual is an MSDN
> web-site with
> 
>   -  No index
>   -  No single-page format, whether HTML, PDF, TXT, or even friggin' DOC
> 
> You can't find anything about MSBuild without knowing about it already.
> Googling it works better!  
> 
> Microsoft could really learn something from GNU, in my opinion.  I can
> download a full reference manual for gcc, for example.  In many different
> formats.
> 

There's an MSPress book at Amazon for $37.25.
Nothing but 4 and 5 star reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Microsoft-Build-Engine-Foundation/dp/0735645248/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295862543&sr=1-1

owl wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>> ... for MSBuild.
>> 
>> Apparently so, because all I can find for a reference manual is an MSDN
>> web-site with
>> 
>>   -  No index
>>   -  No single-page format, whether HTML, PDF, TXT, or even friggin' DOC
>> 
>> You can't find anything about MSBuild without knowing about it already.
>> Googling it works better!  
>> 
>> Microsoft could really learn something from GNU, in my opinion.  I can
>> download a full reference manual for gcc, for example.  In many different
>> formats.
>
> There's an MSPress book at Amazon for $37.25.
> Nothing but 4 and 5 star reviews.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Microsoft-Build-Engine-Foundation/dp/0735645248/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295862543&sr=1-1

I see such books.  However, what I want is a *reference* manual, not a user
manual or tutorial, especially on involving a project that we do not at all
want to use (due to it shitting the bed a few years ago) -- Team Foundation
Server.

We already have a book by one of the authors of that one, by the way.  It
does not at all cover what I need to know.  But thanks for the heads up.

-- 
Two wrongs are only the beginning.
		-- Kohn

Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
> owl wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> > Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
> >> ... for MSBuild.
> >> 
> >> Apparently so, because all I can find for a reference manual is an MSDN
> >> web-site with
> >> 
> >>   -  No index
> >>   -  No single-page format, whether HTML, PDF, TXT, or even friggin' DOC
> >> 
> >> You can't find anything about MSBuild without knowing about it already.
> >> Googling it works better!  
> >> 
> >> Microsoft could really learn something from GNU, in my opinion.  I can
> >> download a full reference manual for gcc, for example.  In many different
> >> formats.
> >
> > There's an MSPress book at Amazon for $37.25.
> > Nothing but 4 and 5 star reviews.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Microsoft-Build-Engine-Foundation/dp/0735645248/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295862543&sr=1-1

> I see such books.  However, what I want is a *reference* manual, not a user
> manual or tutorial, especially on involving a project that we do not at all
> want to use (due to it shitting the bed a few years ago) -- Team Foundation
> Server.

> We already have a book by one of the authors of that one, by the way.  It
> does not at all cover what I need to know.  But thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, I had no idea what particular type of reference you needed.  My thinking
was that the book at least has an index, and maybe it could help by enabling
you to stumble across a hint somewhere in the text that would help you locate
more detailed relevant information in the MSBuild online reference.

In my case, regardless of subject matter, I have never found a perfect
reference.  I generally need several books, online resources, manpages,
tutorials, etc., to fill in all the gaps.

owl wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>> owl wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> > Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>> >> ... for MSBuild.
>> >> 
>> >> Microsoft could really learn something from GNU, in my opinion.  I can
>> >> download a full reference manual for gcc, for example.  In many different
>> >> formats.
>> >
>> > There's an MSPress book at Amazon for $37.25.
>> > Nothing but 4 and 5 star reviews.
>> >
>> > http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Microsoft-Build-Engine-Foundation/dp/0735645248/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295862543&sr=1-1
>
>> I see such books.  However, what I want is a *reference* manual, not a user
>> manual or tutorial, especially on involving a project that we do not at all
>> want to use (due to it shitting the bed a few years ago) -- Team Foundation
>> Server.
>
>> We already have a book by one of the authors of that one, by the way.  It
>> does not at all cover what I need to know.  But thanks for the heads up.
>
> Yeah, I had no idea what particular type of reference you needed.  My thinking
> was that the book at least has an index, and maybe it could help by enabling
> you to stumble across a hint somewhere in the text that would help you locate
> more detailed relevant information in the MSBuild online reference.
>
> In my case, regardless of subject matter, I have never found a perfect
> reference.  I generally need several books, online resources, manpages,
> tutorials, etc., to fill in all the gaps.

With the help of the book I had at work, and a lot more googling, I got past
my current issue with MSBuild.

By the way, here's another build system, with the correct approach to
documentation:

   http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/index.html

And note the comprehensive reference index for variables:  

   http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/autoconf.html#Environment-Variable-Index

MSDN seems to have lost its navigation sidebar:

   http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363858(v=vs.85).aspx

I don't understand why that god-damned company has to churn everything, even
once they have working right.

-- 
	After watching an extremely attractive maternity-ward patient
earnestly thumbing her way through a telephone directory for several
minutes, a hospital orderly finally asked if he could be of some help.
	"No, thanks," smiled the young mother, "I'm just looking for a
name for my baby."
	"But the hospital supplies a special booklet that lists hundreds
of first names and their meanings," said the orderly.
	"That won't help," said the woman, "my baby already has a first name."

owl wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>> owl wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> > Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>> >> ... for MSBuild.
>> >> 
>> >> Microsoft could really learn something from GNU, in my opinion.  I can
>> >> download a full reference manual for gcc, for example.  In many different
>> >> formats.
>> >
>> > There's an MSPress book at Amazon for $37.25.
>> > Nothing but 4 and 5 star reviews.
>> >
>> > http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Microsoft-Build-Engine-Foundation/dp/0735645248/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295862543&sr=1-1
>
>> I see such books.  However, what I want is a *reference* manual, not a user
>> manual or tutorial, especially on involving a project that we do not at all
>> want to use (due to it shitting the bed a few years ago) -- Team Foundation
>> Server.
>
>> We already have a book by one of the authors of that one, by the way.  It
>> does not at all cover what I need to know.  But thanks for the heads up.
>
> Yeah, I had no idea what particular type of reference you needed.  My thinking
> was that the book at least has an index, and maybe it could help by enabling
> you to stumble across a hint somewhere in the text that would help you locate
> more detailed relevant information in the MSBuild online reference.
>
> In my case, regardless of subject matter, I have never found a perfect
> reference.  I generally need several books, online resources, manpages,
> tutorials, etc., to fill in all the gaps.

With the help of the book I had at work, and a lot more googling, I got past
my current issue with MSBuild.

By the way, here's another build system, with the correct approach to
documentation:

   http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/index.html

And note the comprehensive reference index for variables:  

   http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/autoconf.html#Environment-Variable-Index

MSDN seems to have lost its navigation sidebar:

   http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363858(v=vs.85).aspx

I don't understand why that god-damned company has to churn everything, even
once they have it working right.

-- 
	After watching an extremely attractive maternity-ward patient
earnestly thumbing her way through a telephone directory for several
minutes, a hospital orderly finally asked if he could be of some help.
	"No, thanks," smiled the young mother, "I'm just looking for a
name for my baby."
	"But the hospital supplies a special booklet that lists hundreds
of first names and their meanings," said the orderly.
	"That won't help," said the woman, "my baby already has a first name."

Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:

> With the help of the book I had at work, and a lot more googling, I got past
> my current issue with MSBuild.

> By the way, here's another build system, with the correct approach to
> documentation:

>    http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/index.html

> And note the comprehensive reference index for variables:  

>    http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/autoconf.html#Environment-Variable-Index

> MSDN seems to have lost its navigation sidebar:

>    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363858(v=vs.85).aspx

It's sorta kinda there, but it collapse the parent, so if you get there
from a search for "createfile", you might not see it.  Looks like You have
to click on "File Management Functions" to get the other functions listed
(along with createfile).  Click on any function and the "File Management
Functions" branch collapses again.  Really stupid, unintuitive layout. 

> I don't understand why that god-damned company has to churn everything, even
> once they have working right.

It's practically impossible to find anything at their site now that
bing is involved.  The way internal search results come back, you
may as well be using google.  It seems like it used to be at least
navigable, if a tad labyrinthine.

I'm just a "book" kind of person.  I really *hate* reading more than
a paragraph or two at a time on my computer.  Way back in the ancient
times when I was playing with Windows C programming, I even shelled out
for a multivolume set of books on the Win32 api just so I wouldn't have
to use the IDE for function lookups.  Right now I don't even have a
good chair here in mom's basement, so even book reading is not as
fun as it used to be though. :O

What would be cool, if you could get around copyright issues, would
be a service like lulu, only you could print on-demand personal
bound copies of other authors' works.
 

owl wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Chris Ahlstrom <ahlstromc@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>
>> MSDN seems to have lost its navigation sidebar:
>
>>    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363858(v=vs.85).aspx
>
> It's sorta kinda there, but it collapse the parent, so if you get there
> from a search for "createfile", you might not see it.  Looks like You have
> to click on "File Management Functions" to get the other functions listed
> (along with createfile).  Click on any function and the "File Management
> Functions" branch collapses again.  Really stupid, unintuitive layout. 

Last year MSDN was really working well, in Firefox.

>> I don't understand why that god-damned company has to churn everything, even
>> once they have working right.

Ahhhh, Bing may be to blame?

> It's practically impossible to find anything at their site now that
> bing is involved.  The way internal search results come back, you
> may as well be using google.  It seems like it used to be at least
> navigable, if a tad labyrinthine.
>
> I'm just a "book" kind of person.  I really *hate* reading more than
> a paragraph or two at a time on my computer.  Way back in the ancient
> times when I was playing with Windows C programming, I even shelled out
> for a multivolume set of books on the Win32 api just so I wouldn't have
> to use the IDE for function lookups.  Right now I don't even have a
> good chair here in mom's basement, so even book reading is not as
> fun as it used to be though. :O
>
> What would be cool, if you could get around copyright issues, would
> be a service like lulu, only you could print on-demand personal
> bound copies of other authors' works.

Well, IIRC, Bing incorporates a lot of Wikipedia content.  :-D


-- 
Under the wide and heavy VAX
Dig my grave and let me relax
Long have I lived, and many my hacks
And I lay me down with a will.
These be the words that tell the way:
"Here he lies who piped 64K,
Brought down the machine for nearly a day,
And Rogue playing to an awful standstill."

On 1/25/2011 6:35 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> I don't understand why that god-damned company has to churn everything, even
> once they have it working right.


You hypocrites are just sad.  "churn" is what the Linux crapware 
"development model" is based on.


For instance, six and a half years ago this piece of slopware was up to 
version 22.5.9:

"LILO release 22.5.9 is based upon Werner Almesberger's LILO version 21."

http://lilo.go.dyndns.org/pub/linux/lilo




Then there's the silly Ubuntu churn-and-burn release cycle: every 6 
months, state of the code be damned.  It's a joke.