f



Don't ask, don't tell...

While my son visited me for the day, after we went to the Hawks-Giants game
and then to see Harry Potter he was still awake (12 years old) and so I put
him in front of my Suse 10.0 machine and let him play Unreal Tournament
2004 in Linux.  I let him set up the machine in Control Center first (he's
a right hander and I'm a leftie), using KDE Control center, and then had
him launch and run UT2004.

I did't say anything about this being a Linux machine and I have no idea if
he knows what Linux is even.   I was about to "give the speech about Linux"
and I decided, no, I would just let him use the machine and see what he
said.

He said nothing.

He just used the machine as a PC, made the changes, launched an app and
played UT04.   

To me that speaks volumes.   That a new user to Linux, who's never seen it
in his life, did not perk up and say "oh, what's this!  is it some new kind
of computer!".   No, it was just another GUI, that allowed him to do the
task that he wanted to.

And that means that there is nothing stopping Linux.   


0
jabailo (8241)
11/28/2005 10:37:16 PM
comp.os.linux.advocacy 124139 articles. 3 followers. Post Follow

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John Bailo wrote:

> While my son visited me for the day, after we went to the Hawks-Giants game
> and then to see Harry Potter he was still awake (12 years old) and so I put
> him in front of my Suse 10.0 machine and let him play Unreal Tournament
> 2004 in Linux.  I let him set up the machine in Control Center first (he's
> a right hander and I'm a leftie), using KDE Control center, and then had
> him launch and run UT2004.
> 
> I did't say anything about this being a Linux machine and I have no idea if
> he knows what Linux is even.   I was about to "give the speech about Linux"
> and I decided, no, I would just let him use the machine and see what he
> said.
> 
> He said nothing.
> 
> He just used the machine as a PC, made the changes, launched an app and
> played UT04.   
> 
> To me that speaks volumes.   That a new user to Linux, who's never seen it
> in his life, did not perk up and say "oh, what's this!  is it some new kind
> of computer!".   No, it was just another GUI, that allowed him to do the
> task that he wanted to.
> 
> And that means that there is nothing stopping Linux.   
> 
> 

Now that is good linux advocacy.


-- 
Where are we going?
And why am I in this handbasket?
0
mist (19747)
11/29/2005 4:42:44 AM
Fine : in a working system.

I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no 
sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared printer.

Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO. 
They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to 
device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is 
better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.

And the biggest bugbear? Downloading and installing : about 5 formats 
dealt with so far : by far the easiest being debian DEB packages. Can 
there be anything worse than downloading a file and staring at it 
blankly as you survey yet another bloody MAN page fir the relevant 
decompressor  which is 25 pages long and expains 87 command line switches.


Another big problem? SW redundancy. There is too much half finished crap 
on the distros by some beard somewhere who through it would be cool to 
write (eg) his own CD player. Navigating through the good, the bad and 
the plain ugly is a job be3st left to the hard core enthusiast with a 
LOT of time on his hands.

Just my 2c of course.


John Bailo wrote:
> While my son visited me for the day, after we went to the Hawks-Giants game
> and then to see Harry Potter he was still awake (12 years old) and so I put
> him in front of my Suse 10.0 machine and let him play Unreal Tournament
> 2004 in Linux.  I let him set up the machine in Control Center first (he's
> a right hander and I'm a leftie), using KDE Control center, and then had
> him launch and run UT2004.
> 
> I did't say anything about this being a Linux machine and I have no idea if
> he knows what Linux is even.   I was about to "give the speech about Linux"
> and I decided, no, I would just let him use the machine and see what he
> said.
> 
> He said nothing.
> 
> He just used the machine as a PC, made the changes, launched an app and
> played UT04.   
> 
> To me that speaks volumes.   That a new user to Linux, who's never seen it
> in his life, did not perk up and say "oh, what's this!  is it some new kind
> of computer!".   No, it was just another GUI, that allowed him to do the
> task that he wanted to.
> 
> And that means that there is nothing stopping Linux.   
> 
> 

0
mitticus (2589)
11/29/2005 9:53:45 AM
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:53:45 +0100, Walter Mitty wrote:

> 
> Fine : in a working system.
> 
> I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no 
> sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared printer.

I'm using Ubuntu. Sound is no problem on this unimpressive laptop, I don't
use a printer with it. In what way is video a hack? All you really need is
the appropriate codecs and libdvdcss. Blame patents nonsense for that, not
Linux.

> 
> Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO.

I'm glad you had the sense to add that IMO.
 
> They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to 
> device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is 
> better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.

Not at first, perhaps. But most of this isn't rocket science. It can be
learned. Average Joe is most likely going to buy his distro off the shelf,
with manuals, or even more likely, IMO, to buy a 'Linux for beginners'
type book with a distro attached (that's more or less how I started) which
will guide him along in easy stages.

And many users, even new ones, won't need to do any of that.

> 
> And the biggest bugbear? Downloading and installing : about 5 formats 
> dealt with so far : by far the easiest being debian DEB packages. Can 
> there be anything worse than downloading a file and staring at it 
> blankly as you survey yet another bloody MAN page fir the relevant 
> decompressor  which is 25 pages long and expains 87 command line switches.

Wild exaggeration will not help your credibility. You use your distro's
package manager and most difficulties go away. If you want to install
something not in the repositories, well, sometimes it's less easy, but
often it's much the same as using your package manager.

> 
> 
> Another big problem? SW redundancy. There is too much half finished crap 
> on the distros by some beard somewhere who through it would be cool to 
> write (eg) his own CD player. Navigating through the good, the bad and 
> the plain ugly is a job be3st left to the hard core enthusiast with a 
> LOT of time on his hands.

Nonsense. If you want a lean system, pick a lean distro. Arklinux is quite
nice, if you like KDE, or there's Ubuntu, which you claim to be using. And
there are others.

Personally I've never understood this bog hoo-hah about apps. I find out
which onces suit me by trying them, or taking note of the recommendations
and experiences of other users. It's called 'choice'. Something you get
far less of in Windows.

> 
> Just my 2c of course.

And not worth the money, I'm afraid.

-- 
Kier

0
vallon (8614)
11/29/2005 10:34:33 AM
GreyCloud schreef:

> John Bailo wrote:
>
> > While my son visited me for the day, after we went to the Hawks-Giants game
> > and then to see Harry Potter he was still awake (12 years old) and so I put
> > him in front of my Suse 10.0 machine and let him play Unreal Tournament
> > 2004 in Linux.  I let him set up the machine in Control Center first (he's
> > a right hander and I'm a leftie), using KDE Control center, and then had
> > him launch and run UT2004.
> >
> > I did't say anything about this being a Linux machine and I have no idea if
> > he knows what Linux is even.   I was about to "give the speech about Linux"
> > and I decided, no, I would just let him use the machine and see what he
> > said.
> >
> > He said nothing.
> >
> > He just used the machine as a PC, made the changes, launched an app and
> > played UT04.
> >
> > To me that speaks volumes.   That a new user to Linux, who's never seen it
> > in his life, did not perk up and say "oh, what's this!  is it some new kind
> > of computer!".   No, it was just another GUI, that allowed him to do the
> > task that he wanted to.
> >
> > And that means that there is nothing stopping Linux.
> >
> >
> 
> Now that is good linux advocacy.

Ack.

The kind I like to see.

0
kleuske (534)
11/29/2005 11:40:48 AM
Walter Mitty schreef:

> Fine : in a working system.
>
> I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no
> sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared printer.
>
> Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO.
> They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to
> device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is
> better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.
>
> And the biggest bugbear? Downloading and installing : about 5 formats
> dealt with so far : by far the easiest being debian DEB packages. Can
> there be anything worse than downloading a file and staring at it
> blankly as you survey yet another bloody MAN page fir the relevant
> decompressor  which is 25 pages long and expains 87 command line switches.
>
>
> Another big problem? SW redundancy. There is too much half finished crap
> on the distros by some beard somewhere who through it would be cool to
> write (eg) his own CD player. Navigating through the good, the bad and
> the plain ugly is a job be3st left to the hard core enthusiast with a
> LOT of time on his hands.
>
> Just my 2c of course.
>
>
> John Bailo wrote:
> > While my son visited me for the day, after we went to the Hawks-Giants game
> > and then to see Harry Potter he was still awake (12 years old) and so I put
> > him in front of my Suse 10.0 machine and let him play Unreal Tournament
> > 2004 in Linux.  I let him set up the machine in Control Center first (he's
> > a right hander and I'm a leftie), using KDE Control center, and then had
> > him launch and run UT2004.
> >
> > I did't say anything about this being a Linux machine and I have no idea if
> > he knows what Linux is even.   I was about to "give the speech about Linux"
> > and I decided, no, I would just let him use the machine and see what he
> > said.
> >
> > He said nothing.
> >
> > He just used the machine as a PC, made the changes, launched an app and
> > played UT04.
> >
> > To me that speaks volumes.   That a new user to Linux, who's never seen it
> > in his life, did not perk up and say "oh, what's this!  is it some new kind
> > of computer!".   No, it was just another GUI, that allowed him to do the
> > task that he wanted to.
> >
> > And that means that there is nothing stopping Linux.   
> > 
> >

0
kleuske (534)
11/29/2005 11:41:43 AM
Walter Mitty schreef:

> Fine : in a working system.
>
> I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no
> sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared printer.
>
> Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO.
> They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to
> device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is
> better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.

SO basically you think Joe Soap is an idiot uncapable of reading a
manual or consult the man-pages?

> And the biggest bugbear? Downloading and installing : about 5 formats
> dealt with so far : by far the easiest being debian DEB packages. Can
> there be anything worse than downloading a file and staring at it
> blankly as you survey yet another bloody MAN page fir the relevant
> decompressor  which is 25 pages long and expains 87 command line switches.

So basically what you're saying is

* YOU aren't able to configure X-windows (which usually isn't
neccesary, unless yoiu have a special situation like a doubleheaded
setup with two video-cards).

* YOU are too lazy or too stoopid to browse a manpage for the
applicable command-line
   switches. There's no need to read everything and '-h' or '--help'
provides a short version
   of most commands.

* YOU can't figure out a way to download everything in the same format
(rpm, for instance).

> Another big problem? SW redundancy. There is too much half finished crap
> on the distros by some beard somewhere who through it would be cool to
> write (eg) his own CD player.

So what? Don't install them. Every distro I know of gives you a choice.

> Navigating through the good, the bad and  the plain ugly is a job be3st left to the hard
> core enthusiast with a  LOT of time on his hands.

So what? Just install what you know and what you need. If you don't
know it, you (probably) don't need it.

> Just my 2c of course.

You are projecting your private frustrations on Joe Sixpack, which says
nothing about Joe Sixpack, but a lot about you. What you don't know, is
difficult and cumbersome, of course. I find Windows difficult and
cumbersome, while linux is easy and straightforward.

And the manpages provide all the detail I need.

0
kleuske (534)
11/29/2005 11:50:11 AM
Kier wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:53:45 +0100, Walter Mitty wrote:
> 
> 
>>Fine : in a working system.
>>
>>I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no 
>>sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared printer.
> 
> 
> I'm using Ubuntu. Sound is no problem on this unimpressive laptop, I don't
> use a printer with it. In what way is video a hack? All you really need is
> the appropriate codecs and libdvdcss. Blame patents nonsense for that, not
> Linux.
> 

because this is an advocacy group, I'll get into the dicsussion some more.

You are lucky with your sound card. Google up why its not so easy with 
others. primarily becuase there are two heavily installed & supported 
standards - ALSA & OSS.

Video is a hack because the frewuent advice is to manually edit the X 
config file. I know : I am doing it now : for a standard ATI Radeon card.


> 
>>Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO.
> 
> 
> I'm glad you had the sense to add that IMO.

Why? Its the basis of the entire post. My post would make no sense 
without this caveat.

>  
> 
>>They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to 
>>device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is 
>>better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.
> 
> 
> Not at first, perhaps. But most of this isn't rocket science. It can be

Actuall, I disagree. It is VERY complicated if the system doesnt install 
default on very standard HW.

> learned. Average Joe is most likely going to buy his distro off the shelf,
> with manuals, or even more likely, IMO, to buy a 'Linux for beginners'
> type book with a distro attached (that's more or less how I started) which
> will guide him along in easy stages.
> 
> And many users, even new ones, won't need to do any of that.

True. Until they want to change a video or sound card.

> 
> 
>>And the biggest bugbear? Downloading and installing : about 5 formats 
>>dealt with so far : by far the easiest being debian DEB packages. Can 
>>there be anything worse than downloading a file and staring at it 
>>blankly as you survey yet another bloody MAN page fir the relevant 
>>decompressor  which is 25 pages long and expains 87 command line switches.
> 
> 
> Wild exaggeration will not help your credibility. You use your distro's
> package manager and most difficulties go away. If you want to install

This is simply not true. I have had to downlots of stuff which have no 
link to Ubuntus package manager. I have had to rpm/tar/alien loads of times.

> something not in the repositories, well, sometimes it's less easy, but
> often it's much the same as using your package manager.

Rubbish. It means brining up shells, sudo'ing and getting the command 
line parameters right. Not to mention the chance that the installation 
performs a MAKE and you havent got the right libraries installed.

> 
> 
>>
>>Another big problem? SW redundancy. There is too much half finished crap 
>>on the distros by some beard somewhere who through it would be cool to 
>>write (eg) his own CD player. Navigating through the good, the bad and 
>>the plain ugly is a job be3st left to the hard core enthusiast with a 
>>LOT of time on his hands.
> 
> 
> Nonsense. If you want a lean system, pick a lean distro. Arklinux is quite
> nice, if you like KDE, or there's Ubuntu, which you claim to be using. And
> there are others.

Again : rubbish. I have used a "lean distro". I use Ubuntu/kubuntu : 
the mixtire of sound mixers & audio players is confusing to say the 
least. Its indicative that the recommended KDE CD player doesnt even 
work : yet after I downloaded a "CD reader" plugin for XMSS, that 
worked. Yet amarok doesnt. None of them work through the main Kmix and 
totally ignore the master volume - this is the type of thing Im talking 
about.

You are a good example of WHY Linux is a pain to many : your total 
inability to see the problems involved. I want to like Linux : I am an 
Engineer and I'm telling you that instaling on my system has been 
nothing short of a nighztmare. That is a fact. YOu can dispute it all 
you like.

> 
> Personally I've never understood this bog hoo-hah about apps. I find out
> which onces suit me by trying them, or taking note of the recommendations
> and experiences of other users. It's called 'choice'. Something you get
> far less of in Windows.

The difference is that in windows the core default apps tend to work 
straight out of the box. Why dont you understand this?

it is NOT easy for the average Joe Soap to get HW working in Linux. This 
is my impre3ssion from my own workings and from perusing help groups. It 
is not just me. Understand that.

> 
> 
>>Just my 2c of course.
> 
> 
> And not worth the money, I'm afraid.
> 

You're a one eyed advocate : the worst type. Accept that other people do 
have issues and Linux will become a safer place.
0
mitticus (2589)
11/29/2005 12:12:27 PM
Kleuskes & Moos wrote:
> Walter Mitty schreef:
> 
> 
>>Fine : in a working system.
>>
>>I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no
>>sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared printer.
>>
>>Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO.
>>They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to
>>device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is
>>better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.
> 
> 
> SO basically you think Joe Soap is an idiot uncapable of reading a
> manual or consult the man-pages?

Oh dear. A zealot bay the looks of it. Where   did I say Joe Soap was 
stupid? I do however think that Joe Soap will have serisou issues with 
the AMOUNT he will be expected to read, filter and understand to perform 
SW mods to get certain HW working. Any quick perusal of Linux helpgroups 
will back this up.

> 
> 
>>And the biggest bugbear? Downloading and installing : about 5 formats
>>dealt with so far : by far the easiest being debian DEB packages. Can
>>there be anything worse than downloading a file and staring at it
>>blankly as you survey yet another bloody MAN page fir the relevant
>>decompressor  which is 25 pages long and expains 87 command line switches.
> 
> 
> So basically what you're saying is
> 
> * YOU aren't able to configure X-windows (which usually isn't
> neccesary, unless yoiu have a special situation like a doubleheaded
> setup with two video-cards).

Er, No. I spent two days getting it right.

> 
> * YOU are too lazy or too stoopid to browse a manpage for the
> applicable command-line
>    switches. There's no need to read everything and '-h' or '--help'
> provides a short version
>    of most commands.

err No. I have read about 2000 pages. I cant remember them all. You are 
not an advocate : you're a zealot.

> 
> * YOU can't figure out a way to download everything in the same format
> (rpm, for instance).

Er, no. I cant. Because people provide their packages in different 
formats. Is there a way?

> 
> 
>>Another big problem? SW redundancy. There is too much half finished crap
>>on the distros by some beard somewhere who through it would be cool to
>>write (eg) his own CD player.
> 
> 
> So what? Don't install them. Every distro I know of gives you a choice.
> 

Unfortunately my crystal ball doesnt work : as dont half the apps I have 
tried. One needs to try them to see if they (a) work (b) match their 
windows counterpart in terms of functionality. What *IS* your problem 
here? CD player being one such issue I have.

> 
>>Navigating through the good, the bad and  the plain ugly is a job be3st left to the hard
>>core enthusiast with a  LOT of time on his hands.
> 
> 
> So what? Just install what you know and what you need. If you don't
> know it, you (probably) don't need it.

Oh puh-leaze. See previous reply about crystal ball.

> 
> 
>>Just my 2c of course.
> 
> 
> You are projecting your private frustrations on Joe Sixpack, which says
> nothing about Joe Sixpack, but a lot about you. What you don't know, is
> difficult and cumbersome, of course. I find Windows difficult and
> cumbersome, while linux is easy and straightforward.
> 
> And the manpages provide all the detail I need.
> 

The you're a very lucky guy and I feel sorry for any company for which 
you might produce SW for. If you really think that the majority have the 
time or inclination to read manpages for days on end then you're sadly 
mistaken and this is a major reason why Linux isnt more widespread on 
Joe Soaps home machine.

I *have* been reading manpages and I'm no nearer solving my sound 
problems than when I started.

You're using my comments to launch an attack. I certainly wasnt 
attacking : I was pointing out some facts as to why many people give up 
with Linux. I am experiencing these oft heard issues myself now & I can 
see why people are scared off.



regards.
0
mitticus (2589)
11/29/2005 12:20:08 PM
After takin' a swig o' grog, Walter Mitty belched out this bit o' wisdom:

> You are lucky with your sound card. Google up why its not so easy with 
> others. primarily becuase there are two heavily installed & supported 
> standards - ALSA & OSS.

Why is that bad?  Distros choose one.

> Video is a hack because the frewuent advice is to manually edit the X 
> config file. I know : I am doing it now : for a standard ATI Radeon card.

You shouldn't have to do that for a standard video card.  At worst, the
installer will select the vesa driver, which works quite adequately.

> Actuall, I disagree. It is VERY complicated if the system doesnt install 
> default on very standard HW.

But it does.  If it isn't on your system, you're either interfering with
the process or have non-standard hardware that you do not know about.

For example, certain HELL, errrrr DELL computers come with modified
Sound Blaster Live! hardware on the motherboard.  Thus, the normal
emu10k1 driver does not work.  You have to manually make sure that the
DELL-OEM version of the driver is loaded.

>> And many users, even new ones, won't need to do any of that.
>
> True. Until they want to change a video or sound card.

There are GUI tools to help them, just as there are in Windows.

>> Wild exaggeration will not help your credibility. You use your distro's
>> package manager and most difficulties go away. If you want to install
>
> This is simply not true. I have had to downlots of stuff which have no 
> link to Ubuntus package manager. I have had to rpm/tar/alien loads of times.

For which packages?

Remember that Ubuntu, although based on Debian, is not a full Debian
distro by any means.

>> something not in the repositories, well, sometimes it's less easy, but
>> often it's much the same as using your package manager.
>
> Rubbish. It means brining up shells, sudo'ing and getting the command 
> line parameters right. Not to mention the chance that the installation 
> performs a MAKE and you havent got the right libraries installed.

Too bad.  That's the price you pay for free software (by free, we are
referring to freedom from nagging).

> You are a good example of WHY Linux is a pain to many : your total 
> inability to see the problems involved. I want to like Linux : I am an 
> Engineer and I'm telling you that instaling on my system has been 
> nothing short of a nighztmare. That is a fact. YOu can dispute it all 
> you like.

I'm always amazed by these people who come here claiming to be engineers
and such, yet they reveal that they can barely find their ass with both
hands.

> The difference is that in windows the core default apps tend to work 
> straight out of the box. Why dont you understand this?

Why don't you understand that we don't believe you, since the core apps
and drivers also tend to work out of the box in Linux?

> You're a one eyed advocate : the worst type. Accept that other people do 
> have issues and Linux will become a safer place.

Except that, with a name like Walter Mitty, you've got to be a troll.

-- 
Treat yourself to the devices, applications, and services running on the
GNU/Linux� operating system!
0
iso
11/29/2005 12:39:01 PM
Walter Mitty wrote:
> Kleuskes & Moos wrote:
> > Walter Mitty schreef:
> >
> >
> >>Fine : in a working system.
> >>
> >>I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no
> >>sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared printer.
> >>
> >>Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO.
> >>They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to
> >>device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is
> >>better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.
> >
> >
> > SO basically you think Joe Soap is an idiot uncapable of reading a
> > manual or consult the man-pages?
<snip>

> > So basically what you're saying is
> >
> > * YOU aren't able to configure X-windows (which usually isn't
> > neccesary, unless yoiu have a special situation like a doubleheaded
> > setup with two video-cards).
>
> Er, No. I spent two days getting it right.

And what was the problem?

> > * YOU are too lazy or too stoopid to browse a manpage for the
> > applicable command-line
> >    switches. There's no need to read everything and '-h' or '--help'
> > provides a short version
> >    of most commands.
>
> err No. I have read about 2000 pages. I cant remember them all. You are
> not an advocate : you're a zealot.

Ok. Point taken. I'll try to help you. What is the problem you have?
Reading 2000 pages isn't usually neccesary and twiddling for two days
editing the X-config files usually isn't neccesary, either.

So it seems you have a particular problem others do not have. So what
seems to be the problem?

> > * YOU can't figure out a way to download everything in the same format
> > (rpm, for instance).
>
> Er, no. I cant. Because people provide their packages in different
> formats. Is there a way?

Gentoo, for instance, provides just one, and most packages are
available from multiple sources, packaged and/or repackaged in any
format in use. The usual way to get packeges in one format, is to go to
the site of the distro you have. Most of them provide packages in the
format they use.

Sticking to rpm is a good idea, since that seems to be the most
commonly supported one.

> >>Another big problem? SW redundancy. There is too much half finished crap
> >>on the distros by some beard somewhere who through it would be cool to
> >>write (eg) his own CD player.
> >
> >
> > So what? Don't install them. Every distro I know of gives you a choice.
> >
>
> Unfortunately my crystal ball doesnt work : as dont half the apps I have
> tried. One needs to try them to see if they (a) work (b) match their
> windows counterpart in terms of functionality. What *IS* your problem
> here? CD player being one such issue I have.

There are plenty of sites around which provide good reviews of various
packages.

http://distrowatch.com/
http://linuxreviews.org/
http://www.linuxjournal.com

etc.

You could consult them. For CD playing, ther are multiple options, but
then again, I can hardly see that as a OS essential.

> >>Navigating through the good, the bad and  the plain ugly is a job be3st left to the hard
> >>core enthusiast with a  LOT of time on his hands.
> >
> >
> > So what? Just install what you know and what you need. If you don't
> > know it, you (probably) don't need it.
>
> Oh puh-leaze. See previous reply about crystal ball.

See previous remark on reviews. You don't need a crystall ball for
that. Ask what other use and how they like it, would be another option.
You are able to communicate your disaapointments, so you are capable of
communication your questions aswell.

> >>Just my 2c of course.
> >
> >
> > You are projecting your private frustrations on Joe Sixpack, which says
> > nothing about Joe Sixpack, but a lot about you. What you don't know, is
> > difficult and cumbersome, of course. I find Windows difficult and
> > cumbersome, while linux is easy and straightforward.
> >
> > And the manpages provide all the detail I need.

> The you're a very lucky guy and I feel sorry for any company for which
> you might produce SW for.

Ah... Getting personal, are we? Well, the company i write software for
is quite happy to suffer my quirks.

> If you really think that the majority have the
> time or inclination to read manpages for days on end then you're sadly
> mistaken and this is a major reason why Linux isnt more widespread on
> Joe Soaps home machine.

Well, strangely, most people I know of dont read manpages for days on
end.

> I *have* been reading manpages and I'm no nearer solving my sound
> problems than when I started.

Then you have picked a particularly bad way to ask for any help or
guidance, plunging into this newsgroup and starting to dis linux
because yoiu happen to have some problems understanding it.

The next time, writing a simple post titled "What is the best program
to play Audio CD's" with an appropriate content, gives you a _much_
higher probability of getting a usefull response.

> You're using my comments to launch an attack. I certainly wasnt
> attacking : I was pointing out some facts as to why many people give up
> with Linux.

As do all the wintrolls. Instead of showing your ignorance by 'pointing
out' nonexistent things, you may be better advised by asking about what
you don't understand. This will dramatically increase your chances of
getting a usefull answer.

But somehow I get the idea, you're not particularly interested in
solving your problems, just dissing linux is more than enough.

> I am experiencing these oft heard issues myself now & I can  see why people are
> scared off.

You are expiriencing a system you know next to nothing about. The best
policy in those situations is to _ask_. That way, there is no need for
crystall balls, and people will not mistake you for the umpteenth
windows-troll. Instead, they will provide you with some advice.

For free.

0
kleuske (534)
11/29/2005 12:47:15 PM
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:12:27 +0100, Walter Mitty wrote:

> Kier wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:53:45 +0100, Walter Mitty wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Fine : in a working system.
>>>
>>>I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no 
>>>sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared printer.
>> 
>> 
>> I'm using Ubuntu. Sound is no problem on this unimpressive laptop, I don't
>> use a printer with it. In what way is video a hack? All you really need is
>> the appropriate codecs and libdvdcss. Blame patents nonsense for that, not
>> Linux.
>> 
> 
> because this is an advocacy group, I'll get into the dicsussion some more.

Fine with me.

> 
> You are lucky with your sound card. Google up why its not so easy with 
> others. primarily becuase there are two heavily installed & supported 
> standards - ALSA & OSS.

OSS is getting a bit old now (though handy to fall back on). What's up
with ALSA, then? Surely it's better to have that as a widely accepted
default?

> 
> Video is a hack because the frewuent advice is to manually edit the X 
> config file. I know : I am doing it now : for a standard ATI Radeon card.

I used to have an old Radeon card in this PC, until it died. I can't
recall having much trouble getting it to work. It happens sometimes, but
it's getting rarer.

> 
> 
>> 
>>>Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO.
>> 
>> 
>> I'm glad you had the sense to add that IMO.
> 
> Why? Its the basis of the entire post. My post would make no sense 
> without this caveat.

At lot of those who are critical of Linux, whether fairly or not, don't
seem to realise that, though.

> 
>>  
>> 
>>>They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to 
>>>device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is 
>>>better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.
>> 
>> 
>> Not at first, perhaps. But most of this isn't rocket science. It can be
> 
> Actuall, I disagree. It is VERY complicated if the system doesnt install 
> default on very standard HW.

Well, I've installed Linux on three PCs and two laptops, various distros,
and though I won't claim it always went smoothly 100% of the time, in
general it hasn't been that big a problem. And when it has, it's mostly
been hardware that wasn't really standard.  

> 
>> learned. Average Joe is most likely going to buy his distro off the shelf,
>> with manuals, or even more likely, IMO, to buy a 'Linux for beginners'
>> type book with a distro attached (that's more or less how I started) which
>> will guide him along in easy stages.
>> 
>> And many users, even new ones, won't need to do any of that.
> 
> True. Until they want to change a video or sound card.

Why? In lots of cases, the change will be picked up by the distro's
hardware configuration tools. I had a new nVidia video card put in this
PC recently, and the only thing I had to do was boot up and it worked
fine. I *did* have to install the nVidia drivers for 3D accelleration, but
that's another issue.

There's also a fairly simple way around problems with hardware: chose
Linux compatible stuff. Any reasonably intelligent beginner who wants to
start using Linux will I hope do a little research before leaping in with
both feet.

> 
>> 
>> 
>>>And the biggest bugbear? Downloading and installing : about 5 formats 
>>>dealt with so far : by far the easiest being debian DEB packages. Can 
>>>there be anything worse than downloading a file and staring at it 
>>>blankly as you survey yet another bloody MAN page fir the relevant 
>>>decompressor  which is 25 pages long and expains 87 command line switches.
>> 
>> 
>> Wild exaggeration will not help your credibility. You use your distro's
>> package manager and most difficulties go away. If you want to install
> 
> This is simply not true. I have had to downlots of stuff which have no 
> link to Ubuntus package manager. I have had to rpm/tar/alien loads of times.

Really? What packages are you after? When you consider the number
available in the standard repos, I'm surprised you have to look elsewhere.
But the average user most likely won't, at least to begin with. He'll try
out the standard apps like OO.org or K3b or rhythmbox or grip or gedit or
xine or ark or GIMP or scribus... etc.

> 
>> something not in the repositories, well, sometimes it's less easy, but
>> often it's much the same as using your package manager.
> 
> Rubbish. It means brining up shells, sudo'ing and getting the command 
> line parameters right. Not to mention the chance that the installation 
> performs a MAKE and you havent got the right libraries installed.

Very much depends on what you're trying to install. I generally avoid
installing from source if possible, as it can couse some inconsistencies
if not carefully managed 

> 
>> 
>> 
>>>
>>>Another big problem? SW redundancy. There is too much half finished crap 
>>>on the distros by some beard somewhere who through it would be cool to 
>>>write (eg) his own CD player. Navigating through the good, the bad and 
>>>the plain ugly is a job be3st left to the hard core enthusiast with a 
>>>LOT of time on his hands.
>> 
>> 
>> Nonsense. If you want a lean system, pick a lean distro. Arklinux is quite
>> nice, if you like KDE, or there's Ubuntu, which you claim to be using. And
>> there are others.
> 
> Again : rubbish. I have used a "lean distro". I use Ubuntu/kubuntu : 
> the mixtire of sound mixers & audio players is confusing to say the 
> least. Its indicative that the recommended KDE CD player doesnt even 
> work : yet after I downloaded a "CD reader" plugin for XMSS, that 
> worked. Yet amarok doesnt. None of them work through the main Kmix and 
> totally ignore the master volume - this is the type of thing Im talking 
> about.
> 
> You are a good example of WHY Linux is a pain to many : your total 
> inability to see the problems involved. I want to like Linux : I am an 
> Engineer and I'm telling you that instaling on my system has been 
> nothing short of a nighztmare. That is a fact. YOu can dispute it all 
> you like.

So *you* had problems. What about many others who didn't? Or they all in
error? Are my five usable systems a fake?

If you truly want to like and use Linux, here's my advice: put Windows out
of your mind when you are working with Linux. Don't compare it to Windows,
deal with it on its own terms, good or bad. Maybe try another distro
OpenSUSE or Mandriva or PCLinuxOS or Mepis are good choices. Start from
scratch with a cheap Linux compatible PC. 

> 
> 
>> Personally I've never understood this bog hoo-hah about apps. I find
>> out which onces suit me by trying them, or taking note of the
>> recommendations and experiences of other users. It's called 'choice'.
>> Something you get far less of in Windows.
> 
> The difference is that in windows the core default apps tend to work
> straight out of the box. Why dont you understand this?

So they work. So what? That's Windows. The stuff in Ubuntu seems to be
working on my laptop. I think I've had only one app not work, and that one
was not a life-or-death matter, and not part of the standard install.

> 
> it is NOT easy for the average Joe Soap to get HW working in Linux. This
> is my impre3ssion from my own workings and from perusing help groups. It
> is not just me. Understand that.

No one says problems don't exist. But they vary from user to user, and
many won't have great difficulties. A lot of it depends on the hardware in
question. If it's very Windows-specific, it may cause more trouble. Good,
Linux-supported hardware on a major distro shouldn't be a lot of hassle.

When I started out a couple of years ago, it was a little more difficult
to get things to work, but nowadays it's becoming much more easy.

I installed my first Linux on a PC that was put together for me (for
Windows) by a friend, and that had hardware that came from all over. But
it worked. Still does.

> 
> 
>> 
>>>Just my 2c of course.
>> 
>> 
>> And not worth the money, I'm afraid.
>> 
>> 
> You're a one eyed advocate : the worst type. Accept that other people do
> have issues and Linux will become a safer place.

No, I'm not one-eyed. I've just read an awful lot of posts that diss Linux
and are trolls. Perhaps you aren't a troll. If so, I'm sorry I seemed
abrupt. But there are lots of wintrolls around claiming anyone who say she
has trouble installing or configuring Windows is a liar, too. No one
person's experience covers everything.

Neither OS is perfect. Sometimes things do go pear-shaped in Linux. They
also can go badly wrong with Windows. IMO, Linux is far easier to install
than Windows. You have had a different experience. That doesn't mean Linux
is a write-off for all and sundry, not even for you. Get over to the
ubuntu forums and I bet they have an answer to your problems.

If it were really hard to use and configure Linux, I'd have given up on it
ages ago: I am very lazy, and don't like a lot of hassle. But I'm still
here, a happy Linux user.

-- 
Kier



0
vallon (8614)
11/29/2005 1:42:24 PM
Walter Mitty wrote:

> 
> Fine : in a working system.
> 
> I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no
> sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared
> printer.

<snip>

Just out of curiosity, what video card, and what sound card? My installs of
Ubuntu 5.04 and 5.10 all detected a variety of video cards, sound cards,
and monitors correctly. Also, since this stuff isn't working, if you'd run
the Ubuntu device database app and submit these items, they will most
likely be working at install for the next release.

A final question, what kind of printer are you trying to print to, and what
method are you trying to use to talk to it? I talk to both cups and windows
printers using native protocols, as well as IPP/HTTP. Of course, the
windows side of my network is configured correctly and allows this. Most of
the time when I've set this stuff up for others, any problems turned out to
be issues in the windows printer share configuration.

-- 
Ignorance is a condition. Stupidity is a way of life.
0
rob394 (510)
11/29/2005 2:34:24 PM
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Kleuskes & Moos
<kleuske@xs4all.nl>
 wrote
on 29 Nov 2005 03:40:48 -0800
<1133264448.120093.100590@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
>
> GreyCloud schreef:
>
>> John Bailo wrote:
>>
>> > While my son visited me for the day, after we went to the
>> > Hawks-Giants game and then to see Harry Potter he was still
>> > awake (12 years old) and so I put him in front of my Suse
>> > 10.0 machine and let him play Unreal Tournament 2004 in
>> > Linux.  I let him set up the machine in Control Center
>> > first (he's a right hander and I'm a leftie), using KDE
>> > Control center, and then had him launch and run UT2004.
>> >
>> > I did't say anything about this being a Linux machine and
>> > I have no idea if he knows what Linux is even.   I was
>> > about to "give the speech about Linux" and I decided, no,
>> > I would just let him use the machine and see what he said.
>> >
>> > He said nothing.
>> >
>> > He just used the machine as a PC, made the changes, launched
>> > an app and played UT04.
>> >
>> > To me that speaks volumes.   That a new user to Linux, who's
>> > never seen it in his life, did not perk up and say "oh,
>> > what's this!  is it some new kind of computer!".   No, it
>> > was just another GUI, that allowed him to do the
>> > task that he wanted to.
>> >
>> > And that means that there is nothing stopping Linux.
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> Now that is good linux advocacy.
>
> Ack.
>
> The kind I like to see.
>

Here's another bit.  UT2004 = Quake4 in that respect (at
least on Athlon/x86 equipment), except for a very minor
technical glitch in the sound.

So much for "no games".  :-)

-- 
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
0
ewill5 (11075)
11/29/2005 5:00:05 PM
Walter Mitty wrote:

> 
> Fine : in a working system.
> 
> I've spent days trying to get Ubuntu properly configured. Still no 
> sound, the video IMO is a hack, and no printing to a windows shared 
> printer.
> 

Flathead, ya gotta buy decent equipment first, not emachines.

> Anyone that recommends linux to the average Joe Soap user is mad IMO. 

Anyone who recommends winwoes is just stupid.

> They are not going to be able to edit X config files, Make links to 
> device files, change to root to do x,y or z, determine whether ALSA is 
> better than OSS, recompile sound drivers, lsmod, modprobe  etc etc.
>

Better than the major joke called a registry.  All your eggs in one 
basket... waiting for some dumb ass to come along or a stupid program to 
bork it all up.

< gave flathead a haircut on the rest >

-- 
Where are we going?
And why am I in this handbasket?
0
mist (19747)
11/29/2005 5:28:32 PM
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