f



no dedicated Mac operating system team

In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
iPhone and iPad more power.

According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.

Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
consumer markets. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 6:15:20 PM
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On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:

> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
> iPhone and iPad more power.
> 
> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
> 
> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
> consumer markets.

This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
crowd rather than the professional Protools users.

The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
where Apple is heading. 

In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.

-- 
flatfish+++
mariana trench
0
flatfish
12/22/2016 6:31:31 PM
On 2016-12-22 1:15 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
> iPhone and iPad more power.
> 
> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
> 
> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
> consumer markets. 

I was telling my wife to sell her Apple stock now if she had any. She
didn't take my advice to buy AMD when it was at $2 and now it's worth
five times that amount so now, she listens. :)

-- 
Silver Slimer
Fingerprint: e58428b2633833a3b0c9bb7e40819166642245b7
Gab.ai: @silverslimer

Proud bigot.
0
Silver
12/22/2016 7:11:57 PM
On 12/22/16, 11:15 AM, in article
8L-dnYHnz6WlhcHFnZ2dnUU7-QnNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
> iPhone and iPad more power.
> 
> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
> 
> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
> consumer markets.

Would love to see the article... though be careful, I am sure the
"advocates" are about to attack you for speaking of something other than
Linux. :)

As a Mac user *I* am not happy with how Apple has been treating the Mac.
They are not updating the hardware or software as much as they should be.


-- 
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The
foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." --
Leviticus 19:33-34


0
Snit
12/22/2016 7:18:51 PM
On 12/22/16 11:31, flatfish+++ wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>
>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>
>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>
>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>> consumer markets.
>
> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>
> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
> where Apple is heading.
>
> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>

Apple shot it self in the foot on this one.  You should see the gripes 
on the Xcode mailing list.  If they don't get Sierra OS straigtened out 
first, how could they ever get decent apps for iOS done correctly?  So 
far, from what I've seen, Apple keeps changing Xcode so much that even 
authors of books can't even keep up with the mess that the engineers put 
out.  Xcode is that buggy.

0
GreyCloud
12/22/2016 7:36:16 PM
On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>
>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>> 
>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>> 
>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>> consumer markets.
>
> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>
> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
> where Apple is heading. 
>
> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.

Forgot to link to the article:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios

You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 7:48:55 PM
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 13:48:55 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:

> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>
>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>> 
>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>> 
>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>> consumer markets.
>>
>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>
>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>> where Apple is heading. 
>>
>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
> 
> Forgot to link to the article:
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
> 
> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.

This article just hit the professional audio blogs and is creating
quite a stir.

Maybe Apple knows something we don't but this looks like suicide to me
because they are going to alienate the very people who buy expensive
systems and who kept Apple afloat through the rougher times.

But then again, they sell a hell of a lot of iPads and iPhones and the
mark up is huge on those devices as well and coupled with the trend
away from the desktop and toward mobile devices who knows?
Maybe Apple is being smart here.
I don't think so though.

-- 
flatfish+++
mariana trench
0
flatfish
12/22/2016 7:59:47 PM
On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
> On 2016-12-22 1:15 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>> 
>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>> 
>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>> consumer markets. 
>
> I was telling my wife to sell her Apple stock now if she had any. She
> didn't take my advice to buy AMD when it was at $2 and now it's worth
> five times that amount so now, she listens. :)

I have a small position in Apple right now. Been considering dumping it.
I thought about AMD back then myself. Just never pulled the trigger on
it. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 8:07:08 PM
On 2016-12-22, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote:
> On 12/22/16 11:31, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>
>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>
>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>
>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>> consumer markets.
>>
>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>
>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>> where Apple is heading.
>>
>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>
>
> Apple shot it self in the foot on this one.  You should see the gripes 
> on the Xcode mailing list.  If they don't get Sierra OS straigtened out 
> first, how could they ever get decent apps for iOS done correctly?  So 
> far, from what I've seen, Apple keeps changing Xcode so much that even 
> authors of books can't even keep up with the mess that the engineers put 
> out.  Xcode is that buggy.

Are we talking about Swift? If yes, that's what I was talking about a
week ago or so. It's getting a lot of acceptance but its still so early
in the development of it that it will make you crazy. If you're a
contract developer I can't imagine how this affects your milestones. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 8:10:15 PM
On 12/22/16, 12:48 PM, in article
jO2dnVlHL-K6s8HFnZ2dnUU7-b_NnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> 
>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>> 
>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>> 
>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>> consumer markets.
>> 
>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>> 
>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>> where Apple is heading.
>> 
>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
> 
> Forgot to link to the article:
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-f
> eatures-ios
> 
> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.

If the author had a timeframe I might take him more seriously. Pretty much
he is saying some day far in the future Apple will not make Macs.

Well, yeah, that is a pretty safe bet.


-- 
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The
foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." --
Leviticus 19:33-34


0
Snit
12/22/2016 8:17:27 PM
On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:49:01 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
> >
> >> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
> >> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer =
a
> >> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
> >> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
> >> iPhone and iPad more power.
> >>=20
> >> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dolla=
r
> >> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
> >> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iP=
ad
> >> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
> >>=20
> >> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final C=
ut
> >> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
> >> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
> >> consumer markets.
> >
> > This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
> > musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
> > crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
> >
> > The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
> > When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
> > where Apple is heading.=20
> >
> > In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
> > the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
> > overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>=20
> Forgot to link to the article:
>=20
> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mob=
ile-features-ios
>=20
> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.=20

Well, it's no longer Steve's baby. As with any company, Apple has always be=
en in business to make money, but that has now completely superseded the vi=
sion Jobs had. In my opinion, after his death this was inevitable (he wasn'=
t 'just a showman'). The desktop market isn't what it once was and Apple is=
 responding to that. Compared to the small gadget market, computers are a P=
ITA to design, build, market, etc., and Windows already has that market sow=
n up anyway. I think you made a good point earlier:

"I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because th=
e iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone a=
nd iPad."

(I'd add web development to that)
0
Steve
12/22/2016 8:20:01 PM
On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>
>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>
>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>
>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>> consumer markets.
>>
>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>
>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>> where Apple is heading. 
>>
>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
> 
> Forgot to link to the article:
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
> 
> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation. 

Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
good job of killing Apple.


-- 
Silver Slimer
Fingerprint: e58428b2633833a3b0c9bb7e40819166642245b7
Gab.ai: @silverslimer

Proud bigot.
0
Silver
12/22/2016 9:26:51 PM
On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 2:59:51 PM UTC-5, flatfish+++ wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 13:48:55 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
> 
> > On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
> >>
> >>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
> >>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
> >>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
> >>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
> >>> iPhone and iPad more power.
> >>> 
> >>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
> >>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
> >>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
> >>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
> >>> 
> >>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
> >>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
> >>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
> >>> consumer markets.
> >>
> >> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
> >> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
> >> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
> >>
> >> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
> >> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
> >> where Apple is heading. 
> >>
> >> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
> >> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
> >> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
> > 
> > Forgot to link to the article:
> > 
> > http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
> > 
> > You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
> > to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
> > said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
> > working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
> 
> This article just hit the professional audio blogs and is creating
> quite a stir.
> 
> Maybe Apple knows something we don't but this looks like suicide to me
> because they are going to alienate the very people who buy expensive
> systems and who kept Apple afloat through the rougher times.
> 
> But then again, they sell a hell of a lot of iPads and iPhones and the
> mark up is huge on those devices as well and coupled with the trend
> away from the desktop and toward mobile devices who knows?
> Maybe Apple is being smart here.
> I don't think so though.

To deliberately give up diversification (especially when it is
still quite profitable) to make the corporation even more reliant
on but a single revenue stream is tantamount to suicide.  


-hh
0
hh
12/22/2016 9:30:10 PM
On 2016-12-22 2:59 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 13:48:55 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
> 
>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>
>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>
>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>
>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>> consumer markets.
>>>
>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>
>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>> where Apple is heading. 
>>>
>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>
>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>
>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>
>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
> 
> This article just hit the professional audio blogs and is creating
> quite a stir.
> 
> Maybe Apple knows something we don't but this looks like suicide to me
> because they are going to alienate the very people who buy expensive
> systems and who kept Apple afloat through the rougher times.
> 
> But then again, they sell a hell of a lot of iPads and iPhones and the
> mark up is huge on those devices as well and coupled with the trend
> away from the desktop and toward mobile devices who knows?
> Maybe Apple is being smart here.
> I don't think so though.

Companies in general seem to want to kill the traditional desktop PC.
There's a reason they're moving toward tablet/laptop hybrids with modest
video chips and it's not because gaming and power users are their
priority. From what I can gather, they've concluded that power users
won't buy whole computers and would rather upgrade whatever they have so
they're not the best audience to cater to; those who enjoy portability
are and these tend to buy whole new machines more often. If what I read
in articles and the trends I've noticed continue, computing in the next
few years will between Surface Pro type of machines and iPads.
Everything else will essentially fade away...

Of course, I'm a pessimist.


-- 
Silver Slimer
Fingerprint: e58428b2633833a3b0c9bb7e40819166642245b7
Gab.ai: @silverslimer

Proud bigot.
0
Silver
12/22/2016 9:30:22 PM
On 2016-12-22 3:07 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22 1:15 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>
>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>
>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>> consumer markets. 
>>
>> I was telling my wife to sell her Apple stock now if she had any. She
>> didn't take my advice to buy AMD when it was at $2 and now it's worth
>> five times that amount so now, she listens. :)
> 
> I have a small position in Apple right now. Been considering dumping it.
> I thought about AMD back then myself. Just never pulled the trigger on
> it. 

Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.

AMD, on the other hand, was a lot easier to predict. Despite its
failures in desktop CPUs, AMD made a comfortable spot for itself in the
mid-range CPU category. They didn't change the sockets for their chips
so people with older AMD CPUs could easily upgrade as well. Their APU
was also a lot more interesting than anything Intel had to offer in
addition to being a lot cheaper so anyone buying a laptop and not
wanting to spend more than about $750 was well-served by AMD. With its
graphics chips, they remained competitive on performance all the while
charging less for their cards than NVIDIA (though they were louder from
what I can tell). Most importantly though, despite not being favoured
for desktop CPUs and GPUs with gamers, they became the sole provider of
chips for both Sony and Microsoft in their consoles. I can't imagine
that market not being lucrative.

When it dropped to $2, it HAD to be purchased.

-- 
Silver Slimer
Fingerprint: e58428b2633833a3b0c9bb7e40819166642245b7
Gab.ai: @silverslimer

Proud bigot.
0
Silver
12/22/2016 9:35:17 PM
On 12/22/16, 2:35 PM, in article o3hgrs$u0e$1@dont-email.me, "Silver Slimer"
<.m@nsn.s> wrote:

>>> I was telling my wife to sell her Apple stock now if she had any. She
>>> didn't take my advice to buy AMD when it was at $2 and now it's worth
>>> five times that amount so now, she listens. :)
>> 
>> I have a small position in Apple right now. Been considering dumping it.
>> I thought about AMD back then myself. Just never pulled the trigger on
>> it. 
> 
> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.

I have been predicting them doing very poorly for many years. Some day I
will be right about it. :)

But I agree they need to do more. An iMac with a touch bar keyboard is not
going to be enough. Better hardware is a must... and more of a focus on
their software in general.

Right now they may be waiting for the new file system to be ready -- then
have software and even hardware that takes better advantage of it? Just a
guess... and some wishful thinking.

> AMD, on the other hand, was a lot easier to predict. Despite its
> failures in desktop CPUs, AMD made a comfortable spot for itself in the
> mid-range CPU category. They didn't change the sockets for their chips
> so people with older AMD CPUs could easily upgrade as well. Their APU
> was also a lot more interesting than anything Intel had to offer in
> addition to being a lot cheaper so anyone buying a laptop and not
> wanting to spend more than about $750 was well-served by AMD. With its
> graphics chips, they remained competitive on performance all the while
> charging less for their cards than NVIDIA (though they were louder from
> what I can tell). Most importantly though, despite not being favoured
> for desktop CPUs and GPUs with gamers, they became the sole provider of
> chips for both Sony and Microsoft in their consoles. I can't imagine
> that market not being lucrative.
> 
> When it dropped to $2, it HAD to be purchased.



-- 
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The
foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." --
Leviticus 19:33-34


0
Snit
12/22/2016 9:45:07 PM
On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:49:01 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> >
>> >> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>> >> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>> >> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>> >> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>> >> iPhone and iPad more power.
>> >> 
>> >> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>> >> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>> >> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>> >> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>> >> 
>> >> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>> >> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>> >> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>> >> consumer markets.
>> >
>> > This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>> > musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>> > crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>> >
>> > The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>> > When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>> > where Apple is heading. 
>> >
>> > In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>> > the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>> > overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>> 
>> Forgot to link to the article:
>> 
>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>> 
>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation. 
>
> Well, it's no longer Steve's baby. As with any company, Apple has always
> been in business to make money, but that has now completely superseded
> the vision Jobs had. In my opinion, after his death this was inevitable
> (he wasn't 'just a showman'). The desktop market isn't what it once was
> and Apple is responding to that. Compared to the small gadget market,
> computers are a PITA to design, build, market, etc., and Windows already
> has that market sown up anyway. I think you made a good point earlier:
>
> "I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply
> because the iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop
> for the iPhone and iPad."
>
> (I'd add web development to that)

Development in general I think will always need computers, not tablets
and phones to get the job done. Large spread sheets, good graphical
design and I am sure tons of other things will come to mind. I can't see
them giving up on this market. I think these things are tied together.
Meaning if you drop the computer, you'll likely lose your ability to be
a player in other markets like mobile. I think the computer is the
foundation and without it none of the others are possible. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 9:50:19 PM
On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 2:50:26 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:49:01 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrot=
e:
> >> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
> >> >> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no long=
er a
> >> >> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, an=
d
> >> >> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on t=
he
> >> >> iPhone and iPad more power.
> >> >>=20
> >> >> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion do=
llar
> >> >> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willi=
ng
> >> >> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and=
 iPad
> >> >> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
> >> >>=20
> >> >> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Fina=
l Cut
> >> >> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple care=
s
> >> >> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
> >> >> consumer markets.
> >> >
> >> > This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers an=
d
> >> > musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
> >> > crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
> >> >
> >> > The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
> >> > When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will se=
e
> >> > where Apple is heading.=20
> >> >
> >> > In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they dr=
op
> >> > the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
> >> > overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
> >>=20
> >> Forgot to link to the article:
> >>=20
> >> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-=
mobile-features-ios
> >>=20
> >> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is sa=
id
> >> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
> >> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
> >> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.=20
> >
> > Well, it's no longer Steve's baby. As with any company, Apple has alway=
s
> > been in business to make money, but that has now completely superseded
> > the vision Jobs had. In my opinion, after his death this was inevitable
> > (he wasn't 'just a showman'). The desktop market isn't what it once was
> > and Apple is responding to that. Compared to the small gadget market,
> > computers are a PITA to design, build, market, etc., and Windows alread=
y
> > has that market sown up anyway. I think you made a good point earlier:
> >
> > "I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply
> > because the iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop
> > for the iPhone and iPad."
> >
> > (I'd add web development to that)
>=20
> Development in general I think will always need computers, not tablets
> and phones to get the job done. Large spread sheets, good graphical
> design and I am sure tons of other things will come to mind. I can't see
> them giving up on this market.

They won't give it up entirely, they'll just devote fewer resources as comm=
ensurate.

> I think these things are tied together.
> Meaning if you drop the computer, you'll likely lose your ability to be
> a player in other markets like mobile. I think the computer is the
> foundation and without it none of the others are possible.=20

I agree, but that computer needn't have an Apple logo on it unless you're a=
n iOS developer... I don't develop native apps (at least, not yet). For the=
 first time in my life I'm envisioning a future where I'm not a Mac owner a=
nymore... not of a newer model, anyway.
0
Steve
12/22/2016 10:04:32 PM
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:

> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.

Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs. 

-- 
Testing Linux Mint KDE 18
0
RonB
12/22/2016 10:33:26 PM
Windows is superior to Mac anyway so this is meaningless to me.

Linux is not a desktop operating system so it doesn't warrant consideration.
0
Me
12/22/2016 10:37:06 PM
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 13:30:10 -0800 (PST), -hh wrote:

> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 2:59:51 PM UTC-5, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 13:48:55 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>> 
>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>
>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>
>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>> where Apple is heading. 
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>> 
>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>> 
>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>> 
>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>> 
>> This article just hit the professional audio blogs and is creating
>> quite a stir.
>> 
>> Maybe Apple knows something we don't but this looks like suicide to me
>> because they are going to alienate the very people who buy expensive
>> systems and who kept Apple afloat through the rougher times.
>> 
>> But then again, they sell a hell of a lot of iPads and iPhones and the
>> mark up is huge on those devices as well and coupled with the trend
>> away from the desktop and toward mobile devices who knows?
>> Maybe Apple is being smart here.
>> I don't think so though.
> 
> To deliberately give up diversification (especially when it is
> still quite profitable) to make the corporation even more reliant
> on but a single revenue stream is tantamount to suicide.  
> 
> 
> -hh

Exactly.
I wonder what's going on at Apple?
So do a lot of people.


-- 
flatfish+++
mariana trench
0
flatfish
12/22/2016 10:55:48 PM
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:33:26 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
> 
>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
> 
> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs.

I agree.

-- 
flatfish+++
mariana trench
0
flatfish
12/22/2016 10:56:48 PM
On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
> On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>
>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>
>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>
>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>> consumer markets.
>>>
>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>
>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>> where Apple is heading. 
>>>
>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>> 
>> Forgot to link to the article:
>> 
>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>> 
>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation. 
>
> Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
> good job of killing Apple.

It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
Cheaper not to lose it in the first place. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 10:57:45 PM
On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
> On 2016-12-22 2:59 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 13:48:55 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>
>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>
>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>> where Apple is heading. 
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>
>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>
>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>
>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>> 
>> This article just hit the professional audio blogs and is creating
>> quite a stir.
>> 
>> Maybe Apple knows something we don't but this looks like suicide to me
>> because they are going to alienate the very people who buy expensive
>> systems and who kept Apple afloat through the rougher times.
>> 
>> But then again, they sell a hell of a lot of iPads and iPhones and the
>> mark up is huge on those devices as well and coupled with the trend
>> away from the desktop and toward mobile devices who knows?
>> Maybe Apple is being smart here.
>> I don't think so though.
>
> Companies in general seem to want to kill the traditional desktop PC.
> There's a reason they're moving toward tablet/laptop hybrids with modest
> video chips and it's not because gaming and power users are their
> priority. From what I can gather, they've concluded that power users
> won't buy whole computers and would rather upgrade whatever they have so
> they're not the best audience to cater to; those who enjoy portability
> are and these tend to buy whole new machines more often. If what I read
> in articles and the trends I've noticed continue, computing in the next
> few years will between Surface Pro type of machines and iPads.
> Everything else will essentially fade away...
>
> Of course, I'm a pessimist.

Hopefully they still make good old fashion business laptops and
engineering workstations and mobile workstations. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 10:59:23 PM
On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 2:50:26 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:49:01 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> >> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>> >> >> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>> >> >> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>> >> >> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>> >> >> iPhone and iPad more power.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>> >> >> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>> >> >> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>> >> >> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>> >> >> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>> >> >> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>> >> >> consumer markets.
>> >> >
>> >> > This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>> >> > musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>> >> > crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>> >> >
>> >> > The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>> >> > When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>> >> > where Apple is heading. 
>> >> >
>> >> > In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>> >> > the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>> >> > overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>> >> 
>> >> Forgot to link to the article:
>> >> 
>> >> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>> >> 
>> >> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>> >> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>> >> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>> >> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation. 
>> >
>> > Well, it's no longer Steve's baby. As with any company, Apple has always
>> > been in business to make money, but that has now completely superseded
>> > the vision Jobs had. In my opinion, after his death this was inevitable
>> > (he wasn't 'just a showman'). The desktop market isn't what it once was
>> > and Apple is responding to that. Compared to the small gadget market,
>> > computers are a PITA to design, build, market, etc., and Windows already
>> > has that market sown up anyway. I think you made a good point earlier:
>> >
>> > "I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply
>> > because the iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop
>> > for the iPhone and iPad."
>> >
>> > (I'd add web development to that)
>> 
>> Development in general I think will always need computers, not tablets
>> and phones to get the job done. Large spread sheets, good graphical
>> design and I am sure tons of other things will come to mind. I can't see
>> them giving up on this market.
>
> They won't give it up entirely, they'll just devote fewer resources as commensurate.
>
>> I think these things are tied together.
>> Meaning if you drop the computer, you'll likely lose your ability to be
>> a player in other markets like mobile. I think the computer is the
>> foundation and without it none of the others are possible. 
>
> I agree, but that computer needn't have an Apple logo on it unless
> you're an iOS developer... I don't develop native apps (at least, not
> yet). For the first time in my life I'm envisioning a future where I'm
> not a Mac owner anymore... not of a newer model, anyway.

Thinking of giving Linux a shot?

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 11:04:09 PM
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:57:45 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:

> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>
>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>
>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>> where Apple is heading. 
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>> 
>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>> 
>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>> 
>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation. 
>>
>> Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
>> good job of killing Apple.
> 
> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.

It's happening already as professionals are learning that they can
build a PC for a heck of a lot less money that will blow the doors off
of the Apple offerings within a given class of machine.

Also, some of the cross platform software actually runs better under
Windows than OSX.
Cubase / Nuendo, Studio One, Reaper are known to run better under
Windows.

Once Apple loses those folks they aren't going to return back to Apple
even if Apple gets it's act together. 
-- 
flatfish+++
mariana trench
0
flatfish
12/22/2016 11:10:38 PM
On 12/22/16, 4:04 PM, in article
iLednUFK_qx0xsHFnZ2dnUU7-f2dnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

>>> Development in general I think will always need computers, not tablets
>>> and phones to get the job done. Large spread sheets, good graphical
>>> design and I am sure tons of other things will come to mind. I can't see
>>> them giving up on this market.
>> 
>> They won't give it up entirely, they'll just devote fewer resources as
>> commensurate.
>> 
>>> I think these things are tied together.
>>> Meaning if you drop the computer, you'll likely lose your ability to be
>>> a player in other markets like mobile. I think the computer is the
>>> foundation and without it none of the others are possible.
>> 
>> I agree, but that computer needn't have an Apple logo on it unless
>> you're an iOS developer... I don't develop native apps (at least, not
>> yet). For the first time in my life I'm envisioning a future where I'm
>> not a Mac owner anymore... not of a newer model, anyway.
> 
> Thinking of giving Linux a shot?

I am definitely going to be using it more again... especially after seeing
how much KDE has grown. Truly impressive.

Still, though, to pull me in it would have to handle tasks as well as the
competition. If it did that I would change to it. Heck, if my needs changed
and became less than what they are now I might use it as my primary OS.


-- 
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The
foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." --
Leviticus 19:33-34


0
Snit
12/22/2016 11:11:26 PM
On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
> > On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> >> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
> >>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longe=
r a
> >>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
> >>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on th=
e
> >>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
> >>>>
> >>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dol=
lar
> >>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willin=
g
> >>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and =
iPad
> >>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
> >>>>
> >>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final=
 Cut
> >>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
> >>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
> >>>> consumer markets.
> >>>
> >>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
> >>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
> >>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
> >>>
> >>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
> >>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
> >>> where Apple is heading.=20
> >>>
> >>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they dro=
p
> >>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
> >>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
> >>=20
> >> Forgot to link to the article:
> >>=20
> >> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-=
mobile-features-ios
> >>=20
> >> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is sa=
id
> >> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
> >> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
> >> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.=20
> >
> > Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing =
a
> > good job of killing Apple.
>=20
> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.=20

They don't care and there's little reason for them to. Consider: Apple's in=
novation has switched from being driven by the 'pro' markets of things like=
 audio and video to the mobile market of the average user who owns an iOS d=
evice (or ten). These users require a *much* lower level of support in 'pro=
' apps like Final Cut, Logic, etc. To top it off, it's a *way* bigger marke=
t, bigger now than the computer market. If you were Apple what would you do=
 in a dwindling desktop market? You'd start weening off supporting the 'pro=
s' while offering the masses apps that can get the novice producing results=
 that potentially rival them'. I may not like but I certainly see the reaso=
ning behind it.
0
Steve
12/22/2016 11:12:07 PM
On 12/22/16, 3:33 PM, in article o3hkbl$ukl$1@dont-email.me, "RonB"
<ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
> 
>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
> 
> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs.

Deep!

It is true, though, that such visionaries are hard to come by. He will be
missed... even if he could be a royal jerk.


-- 
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The
foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." --
Leviticus 19:33-34


0
Snit
12/22/2016 11:12:21 PM
On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:57:45 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>
>> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
>>> On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>>
>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>> where Apple is heading. 
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>> 
>>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>> 
>>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation. 
>>>
>>> Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
>>> good job of killing Apple.
>> 
>> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
>> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.
>
> It's happening already as professionals are learning that they can
> build a PC for a heck of a lot less money that will blow the doors off
> of the Apple offerings within a given class of machine.
>
> Also, some of the cross platform software actually runs better under
> Windows than OSX.
> Cubase / Nuendo, Studio One, Reaper are known to run better under
> Windows.

Actually I have opined for years that I prefer Adobe's suite under
Windows. The trick is that I actually don't like Windows. That may be
confusing. I think Windows runs apps like After Effects better than the
Mac does. And I think Windows is much better for things like Avid and
Premiere. I think the hardware is much better. But do I like Windows?
no. Which do I like better, MacOS or Windows? That's a tough one because
before I switched to Linux I would switch back and forth between the Mac
and Windows because I hate them both. I'd guess I have to say I hate
them equally because of the constant back and forth. 

For those that can't or don't want to use Linux this must seem weird.
Linux suits me. When I switched my friends all but put bets on me that
I'd switch back in 6 months. I switched like clock work, until I tried
Linux. Been with it for about 3 years and 4 months now.

> Once Apple loses those folks they aren't going to return back to Apple
> even if Apple gets it's act together. 


-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 11:33:56 PM
On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
>> > On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> >> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++ <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> >>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>> >>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>> >>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>> >>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>> >>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>> >>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>> >>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>> >>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>> >>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>> >>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>> >>>> consumer markets.
>> >>>
>> >>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>> >>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>> >>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>> >>>
>> >>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>> >>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>> >>> where Apple is heading. 
>> >>>
>> >>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>> >>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>> >>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>> >> 
>> >> Forgot to link to the article:
>> >> 
>> >> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>> >> 
>> >> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>> >> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>> >> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>> >> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation. 
>> >
>> > Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
>> > good job of killing Apple.
>> 
>> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
>> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place. 
>
> They don't care and there's little reason for them to. Consider: Apple's
> innovation has switched from being driven by the 'pro' markets of things
> like audio and video to the mobile market of the average user who owns an
> iOS device (or ten). These users require a *much* lower level of support
> in 'pro' apps like Final Cut, Logic, etc. To top it off, it's a *way*
> bigger market, bigger now than the computer market. If you were Apple
> what would you do in a dwindling desktop market? You'd start weening
> off supporting the 'pros' while offering the masses apps that can get
> the novice producing results that potentially rival them'. I may not
> like but I certainly see the reasoning behind it.

I would want to strengthen the desktop. Plenty of tasks require solid
hardware. We still sell millions of PCs. 3D printing is coming up. 3D
modeling. Engineering. Development. Everything enterprise. Servers,
services, cloud. There is plenty of hardware opportunity out there. Hence
by Dell spent $70 billion to acquire EMC. I'd start to leverage Linux.
That's just me... 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/22/2016 11:48:11 PM
On 12/22/16, 4:33 PM, in article
2Z-dncd9m8B5_8HFnZ2dnUU7-YXNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

>> It's happening already as professionals are learning that they can
>> build a PC for a heck of a lot less money that will blow the doors off
>> of the Apple offerings within a given class of machine.
>> 
>> Also, some of the cross platform software actually runs better under
>> Windows than OSX.
>> Cubase / Nuendo, Studio One, Reaper are known to run better under
>> Windows.
> 
> Actually I have opined for years that I prefer Adobe's suite under
> Windows. The trick is that I actually don't like Windows. That may be
> confusing. I think Windows runs apps like After Effects better than the
> Mac does. And I think Windows is much better for things like Avid and
> Premiere. I think the hardware is much better. But do I like Windows?
> no. Which do I like better, MacOS or Windows? That's a tough one because
> before I switched to Linux I would switch back and forth between the Mac
> and Windows because I hate them both. I'd guess I have to say I hate
> them equally because of the constant back and forth.

You hate them but go to them when you want to get more complex desktop tasks
done. Fair enough. 

> For those that can't or don't want to use Linux this must seem weird.
> Linux suits me. When I switched my friends all but put bets on me that
> I'd switch back in 6 months. I switched like clock work, until I tried
> Linux. Been with it for about 3 years and 4 months now.

Cool. Care to talk about what you like about it? Maybe tasks it handles
better than the competition?


-- 
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The
foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." --
Leviticus 19:33-34


0
Snit
12/22/2016 11:57:27 PM
On 12/22/16, 4:48 PM, in article
caKdnY3x_uym-8HFnZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

>>> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
>>> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.
>> 
>> They don't care and there's little reason for them to. Consider: Apple's
>> innovation has switched from being driven by the 'pro' markets of things
>> like audio and video to the mobile market of the average user who owns an
>> iOS device (or ten). These users require a *much* lower level of support
>> in 'pro' apps like Final Cut, Logic, etc. To top it off, it's a *way*
>> bigger market, bigger now than the computer market. If you were Apple
>> what would you do in a dwindling desktop market? You'd start weening
>> off supporting the 'pros' while offering the masses apps that can get
>> the novice producing results that potentially rival them'. I may not
>> like but I certainly see the reasoning behind it.
> 
> I would want to strengthen the desktop. Plenty of tasks require solid
> hardware. We still sell millions of PCs. 3D printing is coming up. 3D
> modeling. Engineering. Development. Everything enterprise. Servers,
> services, cloud. There is plenty of hardware opportunity out there. Hence
> by Dell spent $70 billion to acquire EMC. I'd start to leverage Linux.
> That's just me...

Apple is apparently moving toward AI and has some other projects going...
but they have to get something out to the public soon. Something truly
impressive. Not that what they have is not good, but it does need
improvement and tech does not stand still.

Apple has been here before and then started pushing again. When you are on
the cutting edge there will be jumps and starts. True of Apple and other
companies and even the Linux ecosystem.


-- 
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The
foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." --
Leviticus 19:33-34


0
Snit
12/22/2016 11:59:26 PM
On 12/22/16, 4:10 PM, in article ec34reFpspoU1@mid.individual.net,
"flatfish+++" <flatfish@linuxmail.org> wrote:

>>> Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
>>> good job of killing Apple.
>> 
>> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
>> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.
> 
> It's happening already as professionals are learning that they can
> build a PC for a heck of a lot less money that will blow the doors off
> of the Apple offerings within a given class of machine.

Apple has had the benefit of building the whole tool and making it work
great... but for pros they have backed off this. It is going to cost them.
It is costing them.

> Also, some of the cross platform software actually runs better under
> Windows than OSX.
> Cubase / Nuendo, Studio One, Reaper are known to run better under
> Windows.
> 
> Once Apple loses those folks they aren't going to return back to Apple
> even if Apple gets it's act together.

They have been dragging their feet... and seem unfocused.

-- 
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The
foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." --
Leviticus 19:33-34


0
Snit
12/23/2016 12:01:57 AM
On 2016-12-22 5:33 PM, RonB wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
> 
>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
> 
> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs. 

I'm surprised that they couldn't find a single visionary in that company
and that Tim Cook seemed like the most appropriate choice to replace
Jobs. The guy looks and behaves like a complete tool and he doesn't
strike confidence in the hearts of any of Apple's customers. As it is,
Apple is selling its products by the reputation of what the company was
before Jobs died, not based on what was accomplished since then.

-- 
Silver Slimer
Fingerprint: e58428b2633833a3b0c9bb7e40819166642245b7
Gab.ai: @silverslimer

Proud bigot.
0
Silver
12/23/2016 3:35:02 AM
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:35:02 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:

> On 2016-12-22 5:33 PM, RonB wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>> 
>>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
>> 
>> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs. 
> 
> I'm surprised that they couldn't find a single visionary in that company
> and that Tim Cook seemed like the most appropriate choice to replace
> Jobs. The guy looks and behaves like a complete tool and he doesn't
> strike confidence in the hearts of any of Apple's customers. As it is,
> Apple is selling its products by the reputation of what the company was
> before Jobs died, not based on what was accomplished since then.

He's a jerk, much like Bill Gates who is excruciatingly boring when he
gives presentations.
Jobs was entertaining and knew how to work the crowd.


-- 
flatfish+++
mariana trench
0
flatfish
12/23/2016 3:40:08 AM
On 2016-12-22 10:40 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:35:02 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
> 
>> On 2016-12-22 5:33 PM, RonB wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>>>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>>>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>>>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
>>>
>>> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs. 
>>
>> I'm surprised that they couldn't find a single visionary in that company
>> and that Tim Cook seemed like the most appropriate choice to replace
>> Jobs. The guy looks and behaves like a complete tool and he doesn't
>> strike confidence in the hearts of any of Apple's customers. As it is,
>> Apple is selling its products by the reputation of what the company was
>> before Jobs died, not based on what was accomplished since then.
> 
> He's a jerk, much like Bill Gates who is excruciatingly boring when he
> gives presentations.
> Jobs was entertaining and knew how to work the crowd.

Who selected Cook as a replacement though? Was it Jobs himself, or did
they go through some sort of a committee?

In the 80s, I know that Jobs chose Scully himself and ended up getting
kicked out of his company by the very man he selected but I assume that
there were good reasons for the selections anyway (even though Scully
and his successors drove Apple to obscurity). What was the motivation
for choosing Cook?


-- 
Silver Slimer
Fingerprint: e58428b2633833a3b0c9bb7e40819166642245b7
Gab.ai: @silverslimer

Proud bigot.
0
Silver
12/23/2016 3:46:55 AM
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:46:55 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:

> On 2016-12-22 10:40 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:35:02 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2016-12-22 5:33 PM, RonB wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>>>>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>>>>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>>>>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
>>>>
>>>> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs. 
>>>
>>> I'm surprised that they couldn't find a single visionary in that company
>>> and that Tim Cook seemed like the most appropriate choice to replace
>>> Jobs. The guy looks and behaves like a complete tool and he doesn't
>>> strike confidence in the hearts of any of Apple's customers. As it is,
>>> Apple is selling its products by the reputation of what the company was
>>> before Jobs died, not based on what was accomplished since then.
>> 
>> He's a jerk, much like Bill Gates who is excruciatingly boring when he
>> gives presentations.
>> Jobs was entertaining and knew how to work the crowd.
> 
> Who selected Cook as a replacement though? Was it Jobs himself, or did
> they go through some sort of a committee?
> 
> In the 80s, I know that Jobs chose Scully himself and ended up getting
> kicked out of his company by the very man he selected but I assume that
> there were good reasons for the selections anyway (even though Scully
> and his successors drove Apple to obscurity). What was the motivation
> for choosing Cook?

I have no idea.
From the TV special on Apple vs Microsoft Jobs was asked to leave
because he was just to involved in the bits and bytes of the
technology and as a visionary but neglecting the financial and other
aspects of running a company. So in effect he had great ideas, but the
company was failing financially.

-- 
flatfish+++
mariana trench
0
flatfish
12/23/2016 3:49:30 AM
On 2016-12-23, Silver Slimer <> wrote:
> On 2016-12-22 10:40 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:35:02 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2016-12-22 5:33 PM, RonB wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>>>>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>>>>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>>>>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
>>>>
>>>> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs. 
>>>
>>> I'm surprised that they couldn't find a single visionary in that company
>>> and that Tim Cook seemed like the most appropriate choice to replace
>>> Jobs. The guy looks and behaves like a complete tool and he doesn't
>>> strike confidence in the hearts of any of Apple's customers. As it is,
>>> Apple is selling its products by the reputation of what the company was
>>> before Jobs died, not based on what was accomplished since then.
>> 
>> He's a jerk, much like Bill Gates who is excruciatingly boring when he
>> gives presentations.
>> Jobs was entertaining and knew how to work the crowd.
>
> Who selected Cook as a replacement though? Was it Jobs himself, or did
> they go through some sort of a committee?

Yes, Jobs selected Kooky as the CEO. He said the board would be crazy
not to offer Kooky the position. 

Personally I would have selected Scott Forstall. In my opinion he was
very similar to Jobs. And they fired him. Makes you wonder what they
would have done to Jobs if they could. After all, Jobs was pushed out of
Apple too. 

> In the 80s, I know that Jobs chose Scully himself and ended up getting
> kicked out of his company by the very man he selected but I assume that
> there were good reasons for the selections anyway (even though Scully
> and his successors drove Apple to obscurity). What was the motivation
> for choosing Cook?

Kooky is actually a very good COO. Just wouldn't have picked him for CEO. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/23/2016 4:13:21 AM
On 12/22/16 13:10, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-22, GreyCloud<mist@cumulus.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/22/16 11:31, flatfish+++ wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>
>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>
>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>
>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>> consumer markets.
>>>
>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>
>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>
>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>
>>
>> Apple shot it self in the foot on this one.  You should see the gripes
>> on the Xcode mailing list.  If they don't get Sierra OS straigtened out
>> first, how could they ever get decent apps for iOS done correctly?  So
>> far, from what I've seen, Apple keeps changing Xcode so much that even
>> authors of books can't even keep up with the mess that the engineers put
>> out.  Xcode is that buggy.
>
> Are we talking about Swift? If yes, that's what I was talking about a
> week ago or so. It's getting a lot of acceptance but its still so early
> in the development of it that it will make you crazy. If you're a
> contract developer I can't imagine how this affects your milestones.
>
Actually, it has problems associated with how Xcode IDE works, and it is 
a total mess.  Swift works, but developed by a different team.  Xcode 
has more to do with the development environment and keeping the project 
organized.

0
GreyCloud
12/23/2016 9:33:03 PM
On 12/22/16 14:30, -hh wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 2:59:51 PM UTC-5, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 13:48:55 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>
>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>  wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>
>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>
>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>
>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>
>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>
>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>>
>> This article just hit the professional audio blogs and is creating
>> quite a stir.
>>
>> Maybe Apple knows something we don't but this looks like suicide to me
>> because they are going to alienate the very people who buy expensive
>> systems and who kept Apple afloat through the rougher times.
>>
>> But then again, they sell a hell of a lot of iPads and iPhones and the
>> mark up is huge on those devices as well and coupled with the trend
>> away from the desktop and toward mobile devices who knows?
>> Maybe Apple is being smart here.
>> I don't think so though.
>
> To deliberately give up diversification (especially when it is
> still quite profitable) to make the corporation even more reliant
> on but a single revenue stream is tantamount to suicide.
>

iPhone apps have to be developed on an Mac first.  And Apple is almost 
ignoring the mac environment to the point that it is very buggy now.
Xcode is needed on a mac to develope iOS apps.  And Xcode 8 is pretty bad.

0
GreyCloud
12/23/2016 9:35:27 PM
On 12/22/16 13:20, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:49:01 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>  wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>
>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>
>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>
>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>> consumer markets.
>>>
>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>
>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>
>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>
>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>
>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>
>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>
> Well, it's no longer Steve's baby. As with any company, Apple has always been in business to make money, but that has now completely superseded the vision Jobs had. In my opinion, after his death this was inevitable (he wasn't 'just a showman'). The desktop market isn't what it once was and Apple is responding to that. Compared to the small gadget market, computers are a PITA to design, build, market, etc., and Windows already has that market sown up anyway. I think you made a good point earlier:
>
> "I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad."
>
> (I'd add web development to that)

Trouble is, the development tools that Apple makes are in a shambles 
right now where Xcode is very buggy and doesn't work.  Just read the 
Xcode mailing list.
The buggy Xcode is slowing down development a lot.

0
GreyCloud
12/23/2016 9:38:14 PM
On 12/22/16 15:04, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 2:50:26 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll<fretwizzer@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:49:01 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>  wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>>
>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>
>>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>>
>>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>>>
>>> Well, it's no longer Steve's baby. As with any company, Apple has always
>>> been in business to make money, but that has now completely superseded
>>> the vision Jobs had. In my opinion, after his death this was inevitable
>>> (he wasn't 'just a showman'). The desktop market isn't what it once was
>>> and Apple is responding to that. Compared to the small gadget market,
>>> computers are a PITA to design, build, market, etc., and Windows already
>>> has that market sown up anyway. I think you made a good point earlier:
>>>
>>> "I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply
>>> because the iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop
>>> for the iPhone and iPad."
>>>
>>> (I'd add web development to that)
>>
>> Development in general I think will always need computers, not tablets
>> and phones to get the job done. Large spread sheets, good graphical
>> design and I am sure tons of other things will come to mind. I can't see
>> them giving up on this market.
>
> They won't give it up entirely, they'll just devote fewer resources as commensurate.
>
>> I think these things are tied together.
>> Meaning if you drop the computer, you'll likely lose your ability to be
>> a player in other markets like mobile. I think the computer is the
>> foundation and without it none of the others are possible.
>
> I agree, but that computer needn't have an Apple logo on it unless you're an iOS developer... I don't develop native apps (at least, not yet). For the first time in my life I'm envisioning a future where I'm not a Mac owner anymore... not of a newer model, anyway.

MS is now working on taking the development for iOS apps out of Apples 
own hands.  Just check out the Visual Studio web site on this topic.

0
GreyCloud
12/23/2016 9:39:49 PM
On 12/22/16 16:10, flatfish+++ wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:57:45 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>
>> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer<>  wrote:
>>> On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>  wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>>
>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>
>>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>>
>>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>>>
>>> Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
>>> good job of killing Apple.
>>
>> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
>> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.
>
> It's happening already as professionals are learning that they can
> build a PC for a heck of a lot less money that will blow the doors off
> of the Apple offerings within a given class of machine.
>
> Also, some of the cross platform software actually runs better under
> Windows than OSX.
> Cubase / Nuendo, Studio One, Reaper are known to run better under
> Windows.
>
> Once Apple loses those folks they aren't going to return back to Apple
> even if Apple gets it's act together.

Excellent points.

0
GreyCloud
12/23/2016 9:41:23 PM
On 12/22/16 16:48, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll<fretwizzer@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer<>  wrote:
>>>> On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>  wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>>>
>>>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
>>>> good job of killing Apple.
>>>
>>> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
>>> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.
>>
>> They don't care and there's little reason for them to. Consider: Apple's
>> innovation has switched from being driven by the 'pro' markets of things
>> like audio and video to the mobile market of the average user who owns an
>> iOS device (or ten). These users require a *much* lower level of support
>> in 'pro' apps like Final Cut, Logic, etc. To top it off, it's a *way*
>> bigger market, bigger now than the computer market. If you were Apple
>> what would you do in a dwindling desktop market? You'd start weening
>> off supporting the 'pros' while offering the masses apps that can get
>> the novice producing results that potentially rival them'. I may not
>> like but I certainly see the reasoning behind it.
>
> I would want to strengthen the desktop. Plenty of tasks require solid
> hardware. We still sell millions of PCs. 3D printing is coming up. 3D
> modeling. Engineering. Development. Everything enterprise. Servers,
> services, cloud. There is plenty of hardware opportunity out there. Hence
> by Dell spent $70 billion to acquire EMC. I'd start to leverage Linux.
> That's just me...
>

Check out the Sprout Pro at HP:

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/solutions/business-solutions/computing.html

0
GreyCloud
12/23/2016 9:44:15 PM
On 12/22/16 15:33, RonB wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>
>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
>
> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs.
>

All Timmy was was Steves' toady and nothing more.
Tim I believe has already Killed Apple.

0
GreyCloud
12/23/2016 9:46:23 PM
GreyCloud wrote:

> On 12/22/16 15:04, Steve Carroll wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 2:50:26 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll<fretwizzer@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:49:01 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>  wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no
>>>>>>> longer a dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one
>>>>>>> team, and most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people
>>>>>>> working on the iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion
>>>>>>> dollar enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be
>>>>>>> willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the
>>>>>>> iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the
>>>>>>> iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final
>>>>>>> Cut Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple
>>>>>>> cares less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to
>>>>>>> the consumer markets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they
>>>>>> drop the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>>>
>>>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is
>>>>> said to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy
>>>>> is said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's
>>>>> now working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>>>>
>>>> Well, it's no longer Steve's baby. As with any company, Apple has
>>>> always been in business to make money, but that has now completely
>>>> superseded the vision Jobs had. In my opinion, after his death this was
>>>> inevitable (he wasn't 'just a showman'). The desktop market isn't what
>>>> it once was and Apple is responding to that. Compared to the small
>>>> gadget market, computers are a PITA to design, build, market, etc., and
>>>> Windows already has that market sown up anyway. I think you made a good
>>>> point earlier:
>>>>
>>>> "I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply
>>>> because the iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop
>>>> for the iPhone and iPad."
>>>>
>>>> (I'd add web development to that)
>>>
>>> Development in general I think will always need computers, not tablets
>>> and phones to get the job done. Large spread sheets, good graphical
>>> design and I am sure tons of other things will come to mind. I can't see
>>> them giving up on this market.
>>
>> They won't give it up entirely, they'll just devote fewer resources as
>> commensurate.
>>
>>> I think these things are tied together.
>>> Meaning if you drop the computer, you'll likely lose your ability to be
>>> a player in other markets like mobile. I think the computer is the
>>> foundation and without it none of the others are possible.
>>
>> I agree, but that computer needn't have an Apple logo on it unless you're
>> an iOS developer... I don't develop native apps (at least, not yet). For
>> the first time in my life I'm envisioning a future where I'm not a Mac
>> owner anymore... not of a newer model, anyway.
> 
> MS is now working on taking the development for iOS apps out of Apples
> own hands.  Just check out the Visual Studio web site on this topic.

You still need a Mac to do the development. And this a really a shame.


0
Peter
12/23/2016 9:48:09 PM
On 12/22/16 20:46, Silver Slimer wrote:
> On 2016-12-22 10:40 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:35:02 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>>
>>> On 2016-12-22 5:33 PM, RonB wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:35:17 -0500, Silver Slimer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Apple's value is going to drop for at least the next six months but the
>>>>> drop will be modest because they've traditionally been able to pull out
>>>>> something great when absolutely necessary. After those six months, when
>>>>> no product comes around, it will nosedive IMO.
>>>>
>>>> Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs.
>>>
>>> I'm surprised that they couldn't find a single visionary in that company
>>> and that Tim Cook seemed like the most appropriate choice to replace
>>> Jobs. The guy looks and behaves like a complete tool and he doesn't
>>> strike confidence in the hearts of any of Apple's customers. As it is,
>>> Apple is selling its products by the reputation of what the company was
>>> before Jobs died, not based on what was accomplished since then.
>>
>> He's a jerk, much like Bill Gates who is excruciatingly boring when he
>> gives presentations.
>> Jobs was entertaining and knew how to work the crowd.
>
> Who selected Cook as a replacement though? Was it Jobs himself, or did
> they go through some sort of a committee?
>
> In the 80s, I know that Jobs chose Scully himself and ended up getting
> kicked out of his company by the very man he selected but I assume that
> there were good reasons for the selections anyway (even though Scully
> and his successors drove Apple to obscurity). What was the motivation
> for choosing Cook?
>
>
It was Steve Jobs choice.  I don't think that Steve really understood 
Tim as much as he should have.  Tim is nothing more than a toadie.

0
GreyCloud
12/23/2016 9:48:23 PM
On 2016-12-23, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote:
> On 12/22/16 13:10, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22, GreyCloud<mist@cumulus.com>  wrote:
>>> On 12/22/16 11:31, flatfish+++ wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>
>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>
>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Apple shot it self in the foot on this one.  You should see the gripes
>>> on the Xcode mailing list.  If they don't get Sierra OS straigtened out
>>> first, how could they ever get decent apps for iOS done correctly?  So
>>> far, from what I've seen, Apple keeps changing Xcode so much that even
>>> authors of books can't even keep up with the mess that the engineers put
>>> out.  Xcode is that buggy.
>>
>> Are we talking about Swift? If yes, that's what I was talking about a
>> week ago or so. It's getting a lot of acceptance but its still so early
>> in the development of it that it will make you crazy. If you're a
>> contract developer I can't imagine how this affects your milestones.
>>
> Actually, it has problems associated with how Xcode IDE works, and it is 
> a total mess.  Swift works, but developed by a different team.  Xcode 
> has more to do with the development environment and keeping the project 
> organized.

Okay, but I think we're talking about two different things. Here's what
I am saying. If you write some bit of code and for good or bad reasons
that code works. It gets the results you need. And then Apple changing
the language a little here and a little there, such that your code
breaks. Then you have to go back and re-think it. 

Now, let's assume for a second you're a contract developer. You set
aside a particular lot of hours to get to a particular point in the
statement of work. And when you get there, or worse get past that point,
the code breaks do to changes in the language. Now you're obligated to
go back and redo that, and on your dime. You already got sign off and
payment for the milestone, which is now in breach. It's been undone
effectively. 

So what I am saying is that the language is still in development. For my
own sanity I wouldn't want to be actively writing something with it
until we have a foundation that is known, solid and won't change all the
time. 

XCODE the IDE, I can only imagine what kind of growing pains are being
dealt with there. One good thing is that the language seems to have
broad acceptance so that should mean you can count on it not dying and
thus wasting a lot of your effort.

In some ways I feel like this should have started five years ago. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/24/2016 12:22:16 AM
On 2016-12-23, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote:
> On 12/22/16 16:48, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll<fretwizzer@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer<>  wrote:
>>>>> On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>  wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>>>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>>>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>>>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
>>>>> good job of killing Apple.
>>>>
>>>> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
>>>> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.
>>>
>>> They don't care and there's little reason for them to. Consider: Apple's
>>> innovation has switched from being driven by the 'pro' markets of things
>>> like audio and video to the mobile market of the average user who owns an
>>> iOS device (or ten). These users require a *much* lower level of support
>>> in 'pro' apps like Final Cut, Logic, etc. To top it off, it's a *way*
>>> bigger market, bigger now than the computer market. If you were Apple
>>> what would you do in a dwindling desktop market? You'd start weening
>>> off supporting the 'pros' while offering the masses apps that can get
>>> the novice producing results that potentially rival them'. I may not
>>> like but I certainly see the reasoning behind it.
>>
>> I would want to strengthen the desktop. Plenty of tasks require solid
>> hardware. We still sell millions of PCs. 3D printing is coming up. 3D
>> modeling. Engineering. Development. Everything enterprise. Servers,
>> services, cloud. There is plenty of hardware opportunity out there. Hence
>> by Dell spent $70 billion to acquire EMC. I'd start to leverage Linux.
>> That's just me...
>>
>
> Check out the Sprout Pro at HP:
>
> http://www8.hp.com/us/en/solutions/business-solutions/computing.html

What's that horrible operating system they're running? ;)

One app I'd like is SolidWorks and a 3D printer. 3D printing looks like
the next big thing. I can see all kinds of uses for this. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/24/2016 12:27:18 AM
On 12/23/16, 5:22 PM, in article
fs6dnSg73awlIsDFnZ2dnUU7-WHNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

>> Actually, it has problems associated with how Xcode IDE works, and it is
>> a total mess.  Swift works, but developed by a different team.  Xcode
>> has more to do with the development environment and keeping the project
>> organized.
> 
> Okay, but I think we're talking about two different things. Here's what
> I am saying. If you write some bit of code and for good or bad reasons
> that code works. It gets the results you need. And then Apple changing
> the language a little here and a little there, such that your code
> breaks. Then you have to go back and re-think it.
> 
> Now, let's assume for a second you're a contract developer. You set
> aside a particular lot of hours to get to a particular point in the
> statement of work. And when you get there, or worse get past that point,
> the code breaks do to changes in the language. Now you're obligated to
> go back and redo that, and on your dime. You already got sign off and
> payment for the milestone, which is now in breach. It's been undone
> effectively. 
> 
> So what I am saying is that the language is still in development. For my
> own sanity I wouldn't want to be actively writing something with it
> until we have a foundation that is known, solid and won't change all the
> time. 
> 
> XCODE the IDE, I can only imagine what kind of growing pains are being
> dealt with there. One good thing is that the language seems to have
> broad acceptance so that should mean you can count on it not dying and
> thus wasting a lot of your effort.
> 
> In some ways I feel like this should have started five years ago.

Well, then, in five years it will be where you want it to be. :)


-- 
"When making pornography involves real abuse of real children ... that does
not excuse censorship. No matter how disgusting published works might be,
censorship is more disgusting." -- Richard Stallman

0
Snit
12/24/2016 1:31:12 AM
On 12/23/16 17:22, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-23, GreyCloud<mist@cumulus.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/22/16 13:10, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-12-22, GreyCloud<mist@cumulus.com>   wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/16 11:31, flatfish+++ wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>>
>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Apple shot it self in the foot on this one.  You should see the gripes
>>>> on the Xcode mailing list.  If they don't get Sierra OS straigtened out
>>>> first, how could they ever get decent apps for iOS done correctly?  So
>>>> far, from what I've seen, Apple keeps changing Xcode so much that even
>>>> authors of books can't even keep up with the mess that the engineers put
>>>> out.  Xcode is that buggy.
>>>
>>> Are we talking about Swift? If yes, that's what I was talking about a
>>> week ago or so. It's getting a lot of acceptance but its still so early
>>> in the development of it that it will make you crazy. If you're a
>>> contract developer I can't imagine how this affects your milestones.
>>>
>> Actually, it has problems associated with how Xcode IDE works, and it is
>> a total mess.  Swift works, but developed by a different team.  Xcode
>> has more to do with the development environment and keeping the project
>> organized.
>
> Okay, but I think we're talking about two different things. Here's what
> I am saying. If you write some bit of code and for good or bad reasons
> that code works. It gets the results you need. And then Apple changing
> the language a little here and a little there, such that your code
> breaks. Then you have to go back and re-think it.
>
> Now, let's assume for a second you're a contract developer. You set
> aside a particular lot of hours to get to a particular point in the
> statement of work. And when you get there, or worse get past that point,
> the code breaks do to changes in the language. Now you're obligated to
> go back and redo that, and on your dime. You already got sign off and
> payment for the milestone, which is now in breach. It's been undone
> effectively.
>
> So what I am saying is that the language is still in development. For my
> own sanity I wouldn't want to be actively writing something with it
> until we have a foundation that is known, solid and won't change all the
> time.

Of course.  That much is a given.

But for a professional to get his app in Apples App store, Xcode has to 
sign it before the pro can sell it.  And with the problems I'm reading 
about getting that part done, well, they've filed an awful lot of bug 
reports hoping that these things will get fixed.  Otherwise, the 
developer is stuck on hold till someone finds a work around or until 
Apple provides a fix.  iOS apps rely on Xcode and Xcode only works on 
the mac environment.  I've seen a few developers just give up and moved 
on to windows or something else.

>
> XCODE the IDE, I can only imagine what kind of growing pains are being
> dealt with there. One good thing is that the language seems to have
> broad acceptance so that should mean you can count on it not dying and
> thus wasting a lot of your effort.
>
> In some ways I feel like this should have started five years ago.
>

0
GreyCloud
12/24/2016 7:06:59 PM
On 12/23/16 14:48, Peter K�hlmann wrote:
> GreyCloud wrote:
>
>> On 12/22/16 15:04, Steve Carroll wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 2:50:26 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>> On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll<fretwizzer@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:49:01 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>   wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no
>>>>>>>> longer a dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one
>>>>>>>> team, and most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people
>>>>>>>> working on the iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion
>>>>>>>> dollar enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be
>>>>>>>> willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the
>>>>>>>> iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the
>>>>>>>> iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final
>>>>>>>> Cut Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple
>>>>>>>> cares less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to
>>>>>>>> the consumer markets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they
>>>>>>> drop the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is
>>>>>> said to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy
>>>>>> is said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's
>>>>>> now working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, it's no longer Steve's baby. As with any company, Apple has
>>>>> always been in business to make money, but that has now completely
>>>>> superseded the vision Jobs had. In my opinion, after his death this was
>>>>> inevitable (he wasn't 'just a showman'). The desktop market isn't what
>>>>> it once was and Apple is responding to that. Compared to the small
>>>>> gadget market, computers are a PITA to design, build, market, etc., and
>>>>> Windows already has that market sown up anyway. I think you made a good
>>>>> point earlier:
>>>>>
>>>>> "I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply
>>>>> because the iPhone and iPad exist and developers buy Macs to develop
>>>>> for the iPhone and iPad."
>>>>>
>>>>> (I'd add web development to that)
>>>>
>>>> Development in general I think will always need computers, not tablets
>>>> and phones to get the job done. Large spread sheets, good graphical
>>>> design and I am sure tons of other things will come to mind. I can't see
>>>> them giving up on this market.
>>>
>>> They won't give it up entirely, they'll just devote fewer resources as
>>> commensurate.
>>>
>>>> I think these things are tied together.
>>>> Meaning if you drop the computer, you'll likely lose your ability to be
>>>> a player in other markets like mobile. I think the computer is the
>>>> foundation and without it none of the others are possible.
>>>
>>> I agree, but that computer needn't have an Apple logo on it unless you're
>>> an iOS developer... I don't develop native apps (at least, not yet). For
>>> the first time in my life I'm envisioning a future where I'm not a Mac
>>> owner anymore... not of a newer model, anyway.
>>
>> MS is now working on taking the development for iOS apps out of Apples
>> own hands.  Just check out the Visual Studio web site on this topic.
>
> You still need a Mac to do the development. And this a really a shame.
>
>
For practical purposes, MS isn't there yet.  But they did announce that 
is what they intend to do.  When?  Any guess is good.
The Sierra OS is a mess, so there will be few new apps written and all 
of Apples apps rely on the mac to get it done.  I don't see Xcode 
running on an iPhone or tablet.  If they did, it would spell the doom of 
the mac environment.

0
GreyCloud
12/24/2016 7:09:36 PM
On 12/23/16 17:27, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-12-23, GreyCloud<mist@cumulus.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/22/16 16:48, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-12-22, Steve Carroll<fretwizzer@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-7, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>> On 2016-12-22, Silver Slimer<>   wrote:
>>>>>> On 2016-12-22 2:48 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2016-12-22, flatfish+++<flatfish@linuxmail.org>   wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>>>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Forgot to link to the article:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/21/14037686/apple-macbook-macos-focus-mobile-features-ios
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You guys should read this it's interesting. The guy their siting is said
>>>>>>> to be the most credible person on the Mac that there is. This guy is
>>>>>>> said to have all kinds of contacts inside Apple. He's so good he's now
>>>>>>> working for Bloomburg. It's not just idle speculation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looks like Kooky Tim (or whatever term you used, it was cool) is doing a
>>>>>> good job of killing Apple.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will be so difficult to get this market back once pros leave it.
>>>>> Cheaper not to lose it in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> They don't care and there's little reason for them to. Consider: Apple's
>>>> innovation has switched from being driven by the 'pro' markets of things
>>>> like audio and video to the mobile market of the average user who owns an
>>>> iOS device (or ten). These users require a *much* lower level of support
>>>> in 'pro' apps like Final Cut, Logic, etc. To top it off, it's a *way*
>>>> bigger market, bigger now than the computer market. If you were Apple
>>>> what would you do in a dwindling desktop market? You'd start weening
>>>> off supporting the 'pros' while offering the masses apps that can get
>>>> the novice producing results that potentially rival them'. I may not
>>>> like but I certainly see the reasoning behind it.
>>>
>>> I would want to strengthen the desktop. Plenty of tasks require solid
>>> hardware. We still sell millions of PCs. 3D printing is coming up. 3D
>>> modeling. Engineering. Development. Everything enterprise. Servers,
>>> services, cloud. There is plenty of hardware opportunity out there. Hence
>>> by Dell spent $70 billion to acquire EMC. I'd start to leverage Linux.
>>> That's just me...
>>>
>>
>> Check out the Sprout Pro at HP:
>>
>> http://www8.hp.com/us/en/solutions/business-solutions/computing.html
>
> What's that horrible operating system they're running? ;)
>
> One app I'd like is SolidWorks and a 3D printer. 3D printing looks like
> the next big thing. I can see all kinds of uses for this.
>

A lot of people do.  Not sure which vendor manufactures 3D printers, but 
I'd think they would be a bit pricey.

0
GreyCloud
12/24/2016 7:11:11 PM
On 2016-12-24, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote:
> On 12/23/16 17:22, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-12-23, GreyCloud<mist@cumulus.com>  wrote:
>>> On 12/22/16 13:10, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>> On 2016-12-22, GreyCloud<mist@cumulus.com>   wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/16 11:31, flatfish+++ wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:15:20 -0600, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple
>>>>>>> re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a
>>>>>>> dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and
>>>>>>> most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the
>>>>>>> iPhone and iPad more power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to the article the Mac hardware is still a $22 billion dollar
>>>>>>> enterprise. My only issue with that figure is that I would be willing
>>>>>>> to bet that a lot of Mac sales exists simply because the iPhone and iPad
>>>>>>> exist and developers buy Macs to develop for the iPhone and iPad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something else of interest to me was the mention of changes to Final Cut
>>>>>>> Pro and Aperture. Those went from Pro to consumer. Seems Apple cares
>>>>>>> less and less for the professional and would rather migrate to the
>>>>>>> consumer markets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This confirms what I am hearing from professional audio engineers and
>>>>>> musicians. Apple seems to be moving toward the consumer "Garageband"
>>>>>> crowd rather than the professional Protools users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last Macbook releases a couple of weeks ago were pathetic.
>>>>>> When the new desktops are released in the next few months we will see
>>>>>> where Apple is heading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion Apple may be making a huge mistake here unless they drop
>>>>>> the prices on their hardware which at this point is grossly
>>>>>> overpriced, especially the newest Macbooks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple shot it self in the foot on this one.  You should see the gripes
>>>>> on the Xcode mailing list.  If they don't get Sierra OS straigtened out
>>>>> first, how could they ever get decent apps for iOS done correctly?  So
>>>>> far, from what I've seen, Apple keeps changing Xcode so much that even
>>>>> authors of books can't even keep up with the mess that the engineers put
>>>>> out.  Xcode is that buggy.
>>>>
>>>> Are we talking about Swift? If yes, that's what I was talking about a
>>>> week ago or so. It's getting a lot of acceptance but its still so early
>>>> in the development of it that it will make you crazy. If you're a
>>>> contract developer I can't imagine how this affects your milestones.
>>>>
>>> Actually, it has problems associated with how Xcode IDE works, and it is
>>> a total mess.  Swift works, but developed by a different team.  Xcode
>>> has more to do with the development environment and keeping the project
>>> organized.
>>
>> Okay, but I think we're talking about two different things. Here's what
>> I am saying. If you write some bit of code and for good or bad reasons
>> that code works. It gets the results you need. And then Apple changing
>> the language a little here and a little there, such that your code
>> breaks. Then you have to go back and re-think it.
>>
>> Now, let's assume for a second you're a contract developer. You set
>> aside a particular lot of hours to get to a particular point in the
>> statement of work. And when you get there, or worse get past that point,
>> the code breaks do to changes in the language. Now you're obligated to
>> go back and redo that, and on your dime. You already got sign off and
>> payment for the milestone, which is now in breach. It's been undone
>> effectively.
>>
>> So what I am saying is that the language is still in development. For my
>> own sanity I wouldn't want to be actively writing something with it
>> until we have a foundation that is known, solid and won't change all the
>> time.
>
> Of course.  That much is a given.
>
> But for a professional to get his app in Apples App store, Xcode has to 
> sign it before the pro can sell it.  And with the problems I'm reading 
> about getting that part done, well, they've filed an awful lot of bug 
> reports hoping that these things will get fixed.  Otherwise, the 
> developer is stuck on hold till someone finds a work around or until 
> Apple provides a fix.  iOS apps rely on Xcode and Xcode only works on 
> the mac environment.  I've seen a few developers just give up and moved 
> on to windows or something else.

No money in Windows. Of course I am hearing more and more that there is
no money in iOS either. It's said to be more and more difficult to break
even. I have not put anything on the appStore. I thought about putting
up something simple just to go through the motions. Maybe some kind of
network testing or info something or another. 

I had an idea about mapping cell towers and telling you when there is a
change to the dynamic map. Kind of detecting when you are not using a
tower and instead are using one of the FBI fake connections. Could do
some kind of mapping and verification of existing towers and then
alerting you when a tower becomes part of the triangle that shouldn't be
there. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

0
Marek
12/24/2016 7:42:58 PM
On 12/24/16, 12:42 PM, in article
q5CdncSXfKtfUsPFnZ2dnUU7-YPNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

>>> So what I am saying is that the language is still in development. For my
>>> own sanity I wouldn't want to be actively writing something with it
>>> until we have a foundation that is known, solid and won't change all the
>>> time.
>> 
>> Of course.  That much is a given.
>> 
>> But for a professional to get his app in Apples App store, Xcode has to
>> sign it before the pro can sell it.  And with the problems I'm reading
>> about getting that part done, well, they've filed an awful lot of bug
>> reports hoping that these things will get fixed.  Otherwise, the
>> developer is stuck on hold till someone finds a work around or until
>> Apple provides a fix.  iOS apps rely on Xcode and Xcode only works on
>> the mac environment.  I've seen a few developers just give up and moved
>> on to windows or something else.
> 
> No money in Windows. Of course I am hearing more and more that there is
> no money in iOS either.

Who do you hear this from? It is true, as is the case in any market, many
fail and a few hit it rich.

> It's said to be more and more difficult to break
> even. I have not put anything on the appStore. I thought about putting
> up something simple just to go through the motions. Maybe some kind of
> network testing or info something or another.

A VPN script! :)

> I had an idea about mapping cell towers and telling you when there is a
> change to the dynamic map. Kind of detecting when you are not using a
> tower and instead are using one of the FBI fake connections. Could do
> some kind of mapping and verification of existing towers and then
> alerting you when a tower becomes part of the triangle that shouldn't be
> there. 



-- 
"In fact, the main goal of Linux might be called usability... the most
important thing is that it works well and people ... want to use it."
-- Linus Torvalds

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Snit
12/24/2016 10:50:43 PM
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