I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
direction that it seems to be heading in.
From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.

Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.

However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
dammed lame.

What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
on the planet!
So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
video driver or sound system.

I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
QUALITY software right away.
Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.

But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
group because at least they are friendly.
Sharon

Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
[CUT]

 > I'm buying a Mac!


Go for it... what are you waiting for? What are you whining for?

bye,
   Luca

begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:

< snip >

Hi flatfish
-- 
Microsoft: The company that made email dangerous

Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> 
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.
> 
> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!
> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> video driver or sound system.
> 
> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> 
> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon

Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.

You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any dates, 
sister.

In article <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>,
 Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote:

> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> 
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.
> 
> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!
> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> video driver or sound system.
> 
> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> 
> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon

I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're 
worth it!

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> 
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.
> 
> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!
> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> video driver or sound system.
> 
> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> 
> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon


when i first got into linux a number of years ago...if i had some 
hardware problem and posted on a newsgroup that something was not 
working...i got flamed about as often as i actually got some useful 
help...but eventually got  used to that and rolled up my sleeves and 
just learned how to get my system configured.

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:43:18 -0400, Sharon Kristiansen wrote:

> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!

Too true.  Us LGX users are some of the most inconsiderate, intolerant,
arrogant and egotistical SOB's that ever sat down at a keyboard.  Shame on
us!


> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my
> Xfree, video driver or sound system.


Good on ya!  You shouldn't have to settle for such second-rate software,
and neither would I...

Which is why I use Linux.  I've never compiled a kernel that I didn't
*want* to compile, I've never ever *had* to compile a kernel.


> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.

I feel the same way, again which is why I use Linux and OSS.  Add to this
that I get HIGH QUALITY software at a much better price with LGX/OSS.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with Apple.  Sure enough is a damned
sight better than M$.  But I do like the fact that I can go to justabout
any comp shop and purchase hardware that will work on my Linux systems,
and that I'm not locked into a proprietary hardware/software platform that
if anything is even more expensive than in the WinWorld, even if it is
better quality.

With LGX/OSS, I get quality, flexibility, *and* affordability, which is
something that just ain't quite there elsewhere.

> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off. If this
> is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows group
> because at least they are friendly. Sharon

That's funny.


-- 
rapskat - 21:12:53 up 11:49,  0 users,  load average: 2.76, 3.05, 3.03
It is much harder to find a job than to keep one.

That's your option. I'm not in favor of closed source - software OR
hardware, and I don't feel like paying the price premium for MS or MAC.

BTW - I've installed Linux on more than half a dozen computers, without
any major difficulty.

In article <2q9s3kFs55gfU1@uni-berlin.de>, "ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote:

> That's your option. I'm not in favor of closed source - software OR
> hardware, and I don't feel like paying the price premium for MS or MAC.
> 
> BTW - I've installed Linux on more than half a dozen computers, without
> any major difficulty.

In so doing, you became an expert at it. Your investment in a system that you 
know how to use and administer was the time you spent learning how to do that. 

The higher price one pays for a Mac is worth it to some. Not everyone is or 
wants to be the sort of expert in system minutiae that Linux seems to require. 

I use Windoze, Linux, and Macintosh in my day-to-day work. I have a herd of 
Winodze boxes that someone bought for me that I try to whip into shape for doing 
video editing work. I have another herd of Linux boxes that I built and which 
replace the previous IIS piece of crap web server we had. Linux is my OS of 
choice for building a web site development/qa/production system. 

With my own money I bought an iBook. It runs OS X, which means it talks very 
easily with both the Windoze herd and the Linux herd. Its ability to trivially 
change its IP address makes it my network-diagnostic tool of choice. I can go 
from inside network to T1 to Colo to colo-behind-firewall simply by changing 
what cable I plug into the RJ45 port and selecting the location form a menu. 
This makes diagnosing a network problem or an unhappy server a lot easier. 

As for video production ... I don't care if it's closed or open source. I'm not 
a programmer and I do not have the time to delve into someone else's pet project 
to fix some bug that's major for me but either unimportant or a feature for him. 
I find Apple's iApps to be the perfect blend of power and usability for getting 
real work done. 

It's a polymorphic world out there, and I don't have a lot of time for folks 
like that other poster who had nothing but insults for our recent switcher.

-- 
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Why does Windows have a left mouse button? 

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Sharon Kristiansen:

> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.

Once again, a google troll follows up with a sock-puppet post from uni-berlin.
And, as with this google troll, I will, at least for awhile, summarily PLONK
such idiots.

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Rapskat:

> On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:43:18 -0400, Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>
>> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off. If this
>> is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows group
>> because at least they are friendly. Sharon
>
> That's funny.

True.  "She" has obviously never visited alt.os.windows-xp.

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

Sharon Kristiansen wrote:

All the people I ever met using Mac,
I found them to be gullible pretentious wofflers.

I believe it was George Graves who said...
>
> I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
> VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
> first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're 
> worth it!

  Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
  ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
  after raping your cornhole?

I believe it was Sharon Kristiansen who said...
> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
>
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
>
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.
>
> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!
> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> video driver or sound system.
>
> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
>
> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon


  Good, go F yourself, macFag.

In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
 Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >
> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
> > VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
> > first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're 
> > worth it!
> 
>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
>   after raping your cornhole?

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been 
"ripped off" either completely or even partially. We've bought a great 
computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. All Linux has 
going for it is it's free and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
fare-thee-well.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

I believe it was George Graves who said...
> In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> >
>> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
>> > VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
>> > first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're 
>> > worth it!
>> 
>>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
>>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
>>   after raping your cornhole?
>
> If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been 
> "ripped off" either completely or even partially. 

  Bullshit...even with that 10% discount that you think you got with
  your friends school ID.

> We've bought a great 
> computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 

  Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
  the price by about 50%.

> All Linux has 
> going for it is it's free

  Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
  were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
  download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
  Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.

> and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
> pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
> fare-thee-well.

  That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
  they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.

  And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
  installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?

  I will give credit where it is due, though... at least you're not
  running Windows. 

begin  In article <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de> (Wed, 08 Sep 2004
19:43:18 -0400), Sharon Kristiansen wrote:

> If this is my support team, forget it.

Next time, please make a formal request for support and address it to

  Director, Flatfish Infestations
  Tri-State Area Aquarium Authority

> I might as well ask in a windows group because at least they are
> friendly.

I've heard they like trolling fish there.

Rapskat wrote:

> 
> Of course, there is nothing wrong with Apple.  Sure enough is a
> damned sight better than M$. 

Damning with faint praise I see.

> But I do like the fact that I can go to 
> justabout any comp shop and purchase hardware that will work on my
> Linux systems, and that I'm not locked into a proprietary
> hardware/software platform that if anything is even more expensive
> than in the WinWorld, even if it is better quality.
> 
> With LGX/OSS, I get quality, flexibility, *and* affordability, which
> is something that just ain't quite there elsewhere.

Amen!


-- 
Donovan Hill
Canadian, Linux User, All around nice guy!

Panama Red wrote:

[...]
>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> 
>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?

What the hell are you talking about?  The Apple Store runs Mac OS X, not 
Linux; I've never seen a computer in any Apple Store running anything 
other than OS X.  Do you even know what OS X is?

[...]


-Peter

-- 
Pull out a splinter to reply.

Rapskat wrote:

> Of course, there is nothing wrong with Apple.  Sure enough is a damned
> sight better than M$.  But I do like the fact that I can go to justabout
> any comp shop and purchase hardware that will work on my Linux systems,
> and that I'm not locked into a proprietary hardware/software platform that
> if anything is even more expensive than in the WinWorld, even if it is
> better quality.
> 
> With LGX/OSS, I get quality, flexibility, *and* affordability, which is
> something that just ain't quite there elsewhere.

Very nice answer.  Apple at least contributes to open source. 
Microsoft?  Well, they contribute a lot of proprietary closed-source 
software and ideas.  Sender ID and MS Office are two examples.  Apple's 
OS X is at least partially open source.  MS offerings are fully 
closed-source and proprietary.  Everything MS offers are fully, 
completely closed.  With OS X, you have the Darwin component, which is 
open source.  You've got some proprietary layers there, though, which is 
Carbon and Quartz(?), AFAIK.  With Windows, everything is closed.  Heck, 
even with Java, you can still download the source and compile it.  I've 
always found Sun's licensing to be a bit of a pain, though, WRT going to 
Sun's web site, and logging in, and "signing" an agreement before 
downloading the source.  I'd rather have the ports system pull the 
source code off of an ftp mirror, and there it is.  Point is, at least 
Java is partially open.  Just my .02$.

In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
 Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> > In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> >
> >> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
> >> > VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
> >> > first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're 
> >> > worth it!
> >> 
> >>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
> >>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
> >>   after raping your cornhole?
> >
> > If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been 
> > "ripped off" either completely or even partially. 
> 
>   Bullshit...even with that 10% discount that you think you got with
>   your friends school ID.

I've never gotten a 10% discount with "a friend's school ID." I pay what 
Apple asks, and I have no problem with it. That you do is your problem, 
not anyone else's.

> > We've bought a great 
> > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 
> 
>   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
>   the price by about 50%.

I don't require that they "cut the price" at all.
> 
> > All Linux has 
> > going for it is it's free
> 
>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
>   were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
>   download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
>   Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.

That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is 
OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very 
Windows derivative GUI shells on it. If I wanted something that worked 
and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the 
real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does 
any modern Windows version. 

> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
> > pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
> > fare-thee-well.
> 
>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.

I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is. You have 
to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop 
CS.

>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?

Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS. The 
hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent 
GUI or shrink-wrapped software is not important, because the thing sits 
in a closet somewhere running Apache. Nobody has to interface with it 
very often. In this case, Linux's shortcomings aren't shortcomings at 
all.

>   I will give credit where it is due, though... at least you're not
>   running Windows. 

That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the look 
and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE. The 
file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same, 
the operating conventions look the same. The main difference being that 
the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.

I will say this, I would run Linux over Windows if the Mac went away 
just to avoid Windows. The LInux GUIs might ape Windows, but they aren't 
Windows, and that's a big plus to me.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

In article <XeT%c.17885$rq3.4594@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>,
 Peter Ammon <gershwin@splintermac.com> wrote:

> Panama Red wrote:
> 
> [...]
> >   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
> >   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> > 
> >   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
> >   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
> 
> What the hell are you talking about?  The Apple Store runs Mac OS X, not 
> Linux; I've never seen a computer in any Apple Store running anything 
> other than OS X.  Do you even know what OS X is?

I wondered what he meant by that.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
 Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > We've bought a great 
> > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 
> 
>   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
>   the price by about 50%.

We have had very many price / spec comparisons between PCs and macs 
here on CSMA. In most cases, it turns out that two more or less 
equivalent systems cost more or less the same. And no, a bunch of PC 
components slathered with a mass of isolation foam is not the 
equivalent of a mac. <http://www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp200nc/>

You'll be hard pressed to find a PC that costs 50% of a specific mac 
model and still matches it's specs.

-- 
C Lund, www.notam02.no/~clund

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:19:18 GMT,
 George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> >
>> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
>> > VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
>> > first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're 
>> > worth it!
>> 
>>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
>>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
>>   after raping your cornhole?
>
> If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been 
> "ripped off" either completely or even partially. We've bought a great 
> computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. All Linux has 
> going for it is it's free and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
> pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
> fare-thee-well.
>


Like many "old sayings" that one is notable in it's lack of accuracy. 




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-- 
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
You sound reasonable... Oops, time to up my medication

On 9/9/04 12:43 am, in article 2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de, "Sharon
Kristiansen" <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote:

> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.

Niiiiiice, linux and MacOS advocacy crosspost. Let the flamewar commence!

(My Linux experience - Debian Sarge doesn't like my Dell, in fact, nothing
likes my Dell, either the SCSI or the Radeon, there's always an excuse - but
Playstation 2 Linux is painless, if a little slow due to only having 32Mb of
RAM).

Richard
-- 
Apples of various varieties - currently eMac/G5/PowerBook and ancients.
Carstuff - Supra and New Beetle, and happy with just two for once.
Music stuff - http://www.dmc12.demon.co.uk/music/ - MP3s coming soon!
Otherstuff - http://www.dmc12.demon.co.uk/retrotech/

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:43:18 -0400, Sharon Kristiansen wrote:

> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon


All OS platforms have their assholes. Try a live CD linux like Knoppix or
Mepis or Kanotix or....

They run from the CDRom drive so you can try/test it out. Live CDs are
GREAT. 

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from George Graves:

> If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been 
> "ripped off" either completely or even partially. We've bought a great 
> computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. All Linux has 
> going for it is it's free and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
> pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
> fare-thee-well.

Too bad you do not understand the various meanings of the word "free",
nor do you understand that that old saying applies only to material goods.

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

C Lund wrote:

> In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> > We've bought a great
>> > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software.
>> 
>>   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
>>   the price by about 50%.
> 
> We have had very many price / spec comparisons between PCs and macs
> here on CSMA. In most cases, it turns out that two more or less
> equivalent systems cost more or less the same. And no, a bunch of PC
> components slathered with a mass of isolation foam is not the
> equivalent of a mac. <http://www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp200nc/>
> 
> You'll be hard pressed to find a PC that costs 50% of a specific mac
> model and still matches it's specs.
> 


The new iMac G5s cost between $1651 and $2410 over here (prices taken from
Apples German store converted to US$ at todays exchange rate), G5 Power
Macs running up around the $5k mark for a mid-range machine (Power Mac G5
2.25, 512Mb RAM, ATi 9600 video, smallest available TFT display (20") comes
in at a whopping $5875!). The UK is even more expensive (another 4-5% on
average I think).

Considering an equivalent AMD64 starts at around $800 (similar or faster
clock speed, 2-4 times the RAM, better video card) and a 17" TFT can be had
for a couple of hundred bucks, lets say $400 for a mid-range one, that
still leaves $451 difference (against the smallest iMac) on this side of
the Atlantic.

Apples prices in the US are on the high end of what you'd pay for a PC from
a named manufacturer. The problem is the Intel/AMD hardware translates its
prices very competitively between the US and Europe. Apple however seems to
think of Europe as a bunch of rich suckers and hikes their prices
accordingly.

If an Apple cost in Europe roughly what it cost in the States, I'd be very
interested, as it is, they are competing against workstations here, and
trying to sell what should be a consumer PC into the workstation market
just doesn't work...

Dave

I believe it was Peter Ammon who said...
> Panama Red wrote:
>
> [...]
>>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
>>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
>> 
>>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
>>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
>
> What the hell are you talking about?

  Have you ever talked to the Apple Store "geniuses"?  Guess what they
  install on their Macs.

>The Apple Store runs Mac OS X,

   Surprise, surprise.

> not 
> Linux; I've never seen a computer in any Apple Store running anything 
> other than OS X. 

   Im sure Apple wouldnt have it any other way. However, I am talking
   about what their own gurus run at home.

> Do you even know what OS X is?

   Sure, it is Apple's attempt at keeping up with Linux.

In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
 Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:

> > But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> > If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> > group because at least they are friendly.
> > Sharon

> Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.

> You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any dates, 
> sister.

Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?

-- 
C Lund, www.notam02.no/~clund

I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> 
>>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
>>   were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
>>   download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
>>   Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
>
> That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is 
> OSX. 

  Maybe less polished, but sophisticated? Prove it.

> It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very 
> Windows derivative GUI shells on it.

  So, in other words, you dont know what the hell you're talking about.

> If I wanted something that worked 
> and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE,I'd opt for the 
> real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does 
> any modern Windows version. 

  Dont worry, someday the Mac will be as customizable as KDE.

>> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
>> > pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
>> > fare-thee-well.
>> 
>>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
>>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
>
> I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
> OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.

   Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
   well use "the real thing".

> You have 
> to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop 
> CS.

   So youve now spent $3000 to do what I can do for free. Arent you
   proud?

>>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
>>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
>
> Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS. The 
> hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent 
> GUI or shrink-wrapped software is not important,

   What is your obsession with shrink-wrap? Would you buy a turd if
   someone shrinkwrapped it for you?

> because the thing sits 
> in a closet somewhere running Apache. Nobody has to interface with it 
> very often.
  
   Wrong...Linux is used *because* people have to interface with it
   often. It has to work, not just be a pretty piece of furniture like a
   lamp or a couch or a Mac.

> In this case, Linux's shortcomings aren't shortcomings at 
> all.
>
>>   I will give credit where it is due, though... at least you're not
>>   running Windows. 
>
> That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the look 
> and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE.

  Thats only because you dont know what you're talking about.

  http://www.lynucs.org/?kde

> The 
> file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same, 
> the operating conventions look the same. The main difference being that 
> the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.

  You obviously havent used a modern Linux computer. Since that is the
  case, lets start talking about version 6 of the MacOS.

> I will say this, I would run Linux over Windows if the Mac went away 
> just to avoid Windows. The LInux GUIs might ape Windows, but they aren't 
> Windows, and that's a big plus to me.
>

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:

> In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> > In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> >> >
>> >> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
>> >> > VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
>> >> > first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're 
>> >> > worth it!
>> >> 
>> >>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
>> >>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
>> >>   after raping your cornhole?
>> >
>> > If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been 
>> > "ripped off" either completely or even partially. 
>> 
>>   Bullshit...even with that 10% discount that you think you got with
>>   your friends school ID.
> 
> I've never gotten a 10% discount with "a friend's school ID." I pay what 
> Apple asks, and I have no problem with it. That you do is your problem, 
> not anyone else's.
> 
>> > We've bought a great 
>> > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 
>> 
>>   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
>>   the price by about 50%.
> 
> I don't require that they "cut the price" at all.

Many people would buy Macs if they had a lower sticker price.

>> 
>> > All Linux has 
>> > going for it is it's free
>> 
>>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
>>   were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
>>   download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
>>   Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
> 
> That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is 
> OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very 
> Windows derivative GUI shells on it.

Hmmm... OS X... A command line OS with a GUI shell on it...


> If I wanted something that worked 
> and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the 
> real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does 
> any modern Windows version. 

You obviously haven't used LInux lately. ANd my desktop look more like a
NeXt desktop than windows.

> 
>> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
>> > pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
>> > fare-thee-well.
>> 
>>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
>>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> 
> I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
> OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is. You have 
> to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop 
> CS.

If you are using GIMP for Web based graphics, there isn't anything better.
If you must use Photoshop, you can run it (7) under WINE. That's good
enough for Disney.

> 
(snip)
> 
> That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the look 
> and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE.

Maybe thats because of the taskbar metaphor.

> The 
> file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same, 
> the operating conventions look the same. The main difference being that 
> the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.

.... and so what if the OS can look like window$. That can make new users
feel comfortable.

> 
> I will say this, I would run Linux over Windows if the Mac went away 
> just to avoid Windows. The LInux GUIs might ape Windows, but they aren't 
> Windows, and that's a big plus to me.

-- 
Rick

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:21:36 +0200, C Lund wrote:

> In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
>  Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
> 
>> > But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off. If
>> > this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
>> > group because at least they are friendly. Sharon
> 
>> Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.
> 
>> You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any dates,
>> sister.
> 
> Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?

Well, it depends on what you call 'advocacy'. It is typical of some
schmucks hanging in COLA and calling themselves Linux advocates.

-- 
Rick

C Lund <clund@notam02SPAMBLOCK.no> wrote:

> In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > > We've bought a great 
> > > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 
> > 
> >   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
> >   the price by about 50%.
> 
> We have had very many price / spec comparisons between PCs and macs 
> here on CSMA. In most cases, it turns out that two more or less 
> equivalent systems cost more or less the same. And no, a bunch of PC 
> components slathered with a mass of isolation foam is not the 
> equivalent of a mac. <http://www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp200nc/>
> 
> You'll be hard pressed to find a PC that costs 50% of a specific mac 
> model and still matches it's specs.

It all depends on what you're doing with the machines.

No high-end Mac will ever approach the performance of a similarly speced
AMD PC for 3D rendering.

And you could put together two AMDs for the price of a single Mac -
great for network rendering in Bryce 5, for example.

A Mac is certainly the best for day-to-day use, with Linux (perhaps with
Wine/VmWare for the odd occasion I need a Windows only app) not far
behind. Windows for day-to-day use? Never.

-- 

Peter

George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:

> In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > I believe it was George Graves who said...
> > >
> > > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works
> > > VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
> > > first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're
> > > worth it!
> > 
> >   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
> >   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
> >   after raping your cornhole?
> 
> If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been
> "ripped off" either completely or even partially. We've bought a great
> computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. All Linux has 
> going for it is it's free and you know the old saying? "You get what you
> pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
> fare-thee-well.

George, I wish you'd stop using that old copy of RedHat 6.2 and sample a
modern Linux distro. Then you'd know what you're talking about.

Linux has the advantage of running on the same hardware that 95% of the
computer buying public possesses, so the choice is to spend $$$ on new
hardware to run an excellent OS, or to invest a little time in loading
up a very good OS (both replacing a mediochre OS).

-- 

Peter

begin  C Lund wrote:

> In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
>  Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
> 
>> > But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
>> > If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
>> > group because at least they are friendly.
>> > Sharon
> 
>> Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.
> 
>> You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any dates,
>> sister.
> 
> Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?
> 

No. It is the typical level when idiots like flatfish (nymshifted here to
"Sharon Kristiansen") and "Remote Wonder" (a typical windows user: dumber
than a retarded brick) start playing their silly games

Add to that some retards like "Oxford" (typical Mac user: too stupid to
grasp more than 1 mouse button) into the mix, and you get the usual
flamefest
-- 
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product.

C Lund wrote:
> In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
> Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
>
>>> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
>>> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a
>>> windows group because at least they are friendly.
>>> Sharon
>
>> Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.
>
>> You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any
>> dates, sister.
>
> Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?



That's a mild and highly typical example.
Pay particular attention to posts from Peter Kohlmann, Sinister Midget, Grey 
Cloud, 7 aka e7, Hamilcar Barca, and the grandmaster, Ralph, who, in his own 
mind, has never once been proven wrong.

S.Heenan wrote:

> C Lund wrote:
>> In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
>> Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
>>
>>>> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
>>>> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a
>>>> windows group because at least they are friendly.
>>>> Sharon
>>
>>> Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.
>>
>>> You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any
>>> dates, sister.
>>
>> Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a mild and highly typical example.
> Pay particular attention to posts from Peter Kohlmann, Sinister Midget,
> Grey Cloud, 7 aka e7, Hamilcar Barca, and the grandmaster, Ralph, who, in
> his own mind, has never once been proven wrong.

That's just because I don't make claims I can't support the way Mutt Nuts
do. 

On 2004-09-09, Donn Miller <dmmiller@cvzoom.net> wrote:
> Very nice answer.  Apple at least contributes to open source.  Microsoft?
> Well, they contribute a lot of proprietary closed-source software and
> ideas.  Sender ID and MS Office are two examples.  Apple's OS X is at
> least partially open source.  MS offerings are fully closed-source and
> proprietary.  Everything MS offers are fully, completely closed.  With OS
> X, you have the Darwin component, which is open source.  You've got some
> proprietary layers there, though, which is 

The parts of OS X that are open source are the parts that basically have
nothing that is interesting in them.  Notice how few people run Darwin on
x86, for example, even though it is available--because it basically has
nothing interesting about it other than being the kernel that Apple's
proprietary stuff runs on top of.  Even on PowerPC, people who want a
Unix-like kernel but don't want OS X seem far more likely to run Linux than
Darwin.

Almost anyone choosing a Mac over Windows or Linux will be doing so entirely
for the proprietary layers.

-- 
--Tim Smith

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:21:12 +0000, Woofbert wrote:

> In article <2q9s3kFs55gfU1@uni-berlin.de>, "ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote:
> 
>> That's your option. I'm not in favor of closed source - software OR
>> hardware, and I don't feel like paying the price premium for MS or MAC.
>> 
>> BTW - I've installed Linux on more than half a dozen computers, without
>> any major difficulty.
> 
> In so doing, you became an expert at it. Your investment in a system that you 
> know how to use and administer was the time you spent learning how to do that. 
> 
> The higher price one pays for a Mac is worth it to some. Not everyone is or 
> wants to be the sort of expert in system minutiae that Linux seems to
require. 

Absolutely right. It is also true that there is some degree of expertise
and labor involved in setting up a system. It is too bad that it is
difficult to buy a properly set up Linux computer. I maintain that once a
Linux system is properly set up, it is no more difficult to use than an MS
or MAC system - only a little different. I offer as evidence the fact that
I gone exclusively Linux on our home network (three computers) and my wife
has had no complaints - Linux even handles MSN better than MS does!!

> 
> I use Windoze, Linux, and Macintosh in my day-to-day work. I have a herd of 
> Winodze boxes that someone bought for me that I try to whip into shape for doing 
> video editing work. I have another herd of Linux boxes that I built and which 
> replace the previous IIS piece of crap web server we had. Linux is my OS of 
> choice for building a web site development/qa/production system. 
> 
> With my own money I bought an iBook. It runs OS X, which means it talks very 
> easily with both the Windoze herd and the Linux herd. Its ability to trivially 
> change its IP address makes it my network-diagnostic tool of choice. I can go 
> from inside network to T1 to Colo to colo-behind-firewall simply by changing 
> what cable I plug into the RJ45 port and selecting the location form a menu. 
> This makes diagnosing a network problem or an unhappy server a lot easier. 
> 
> As for video production ... I don't care if it's closed or open source. I'm not 
> a programmer and I do not have the time to delve into someone else's pet project 
> to fix some bug that's major for me but either unimportant or a feature for him. 
> I find Apple's iApps to be the perfect blend of power and usability for getting 
> real work done. 

Not much into video production myself. My graphic work consists primarily
of downloading pictures from a few digital cameras, tweaking the pic a
little, and either printing or copying to CompactFlash card for
professional printing. All of this seems to work much more easily with
Linux than MS - I've no MAC experience.

> 
> It's a polymorphic world out there, and I don't have a lot of time for folks 
> like that other poster who had nothing but insults for our recent switcher.

I'm not going to bad mouth anyone for their decision. I do take exception
when they claim that their experiece should set the standard for everyone.

Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote in message news:<2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> 
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.
> 
> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!
> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> video driver or sound system.
> 
> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> 
> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon


Sharon,

UN*X is UNIX and it's all good.
The Mac will also play games pretty well out of the box so you could
use it as a Mactendo too :^)

Not sure where you got your impression of Linux folks, could be the
Wintrolls lurking in Linux advocacy.  I have never had anyone mock or
ignore a question posed about Linux or BSD on any of the technical
groups and answers for most problems come pretty quick, usually same
day.

If you still want help with problems on you x86 box let me know and
best of luck with the new Mac.

THX

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from C Lund:

> In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
>  Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
>
> Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?

Of course not.  That poster was an idiot.

You may fit that category, too.

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:43:18 -0400, Sharon Kristiansen wrote:

> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.

SuSE 9.1 huh....

Now I have my suspicions about this post...mainly it's origins and who
made it. SuSE happens to be a certain someone's favorite distro to trash
(probably because it's so good), and they like to bring out obscure
hardware, post from uni-berlin.de using a female nym, and has pushed Macs
in the past...while really being pro-Windows and trolling COLA.

I will however, answer most of the fishy arguments within.

> 
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.
> 
> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!

Perhaps you're asking on the wrong groups? Maybe you're asking the wrong
way? 


> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my
> Xfree, video driver or sound system.

Um....what? What are you talking about? Compile the kernel? Haven't you
heard of modules?

> 
> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.

Um...yes it does. Your average Linux distribution comes with tons of
quality software, often stuff that would take thousands of dollars to get
on another system, or an incredible amount of time to download an
incredible amount of OSS software. Considering that some distributions
have been known to make deals with commercial software companies to
include proprietary software....it's sometimes a mix of both even, OSS and
commercial software you'd have to hunt down and pay a lot more for.

And don't forget, some of the highest quality graphics software runs (or
runs best) on Linux. We also have high quality professional desktop
publishing software. And there's also easy to use, powerful, intuititve
video editing software as well as fairly powerful audio tools. All this
stuff has traditionally been a draw for Macs....but we have very good
software to do these same things.

> 
> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off. If this
> is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows group
> because at least they are friendly. Sharon

Windows groups? I thought those were full of Must Consult Someone Else.

S.Heenan wrote:
> C Lund wrote:
> 
>>In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
>>Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
>>>>If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a
>>>>windows group because at least they are friendly.
>>>>Sharon
>>
>>>Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.
>>
>>>You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any
>>>dates, sister.
>>
>>Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a mild and highly typical example.
> Pay particular attention to posts from Peter Kohlmann, Sinister Midget, Grey 
> Cloud, 7 aka e7, Hamilcar Barca, and the grandmaster, Ralph, who, in his own 
> mind, has never once been proven wrong.
> 

And wintrolling morons like you get flamed.  Is it any wonder, due to 
your stupidity, you get flamed??

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

"S.Heenan" <sheenan@wahs.ac> wrote:

>That's a mild and highly typical example

of how stupid trolls get treated, and it is appropriate treatment.

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:

<snip>
> 
> That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is 
> OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very 
> Windows derivative GUI shells on it. If I wanted something that worked 
> and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the 
> real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does 
> any modern Windows version. 


KDE and Gnome are not the only GUIs avaliable...and Gnome is closer to
OSX these days than to Windows from what I've seen of it. Many of the
other GUIs are *nothing* like Windows. Blackbox, Fluxbox, Enlightenment,
Windowmaker, Afterstep, and many others look nothing like Windows.


>
>> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you pay for, often less,
>> > but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a fare-thee-well.
>> 
>>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
>>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> 
> I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful
> OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is. You have
> to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop
> CS.

GIMP is a fine app. But we also have Photoshop 7. We also have CinePaint,
which I must say, blows Photoshop out of the water. And CinePaint is
developed by professional motion picture studios, for high end graphics
manipulation. Screw "shrink wrapped software" this is what the *big* boys
play with.

> 
>>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
>>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
> 
> Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS.

And desktop OS, and embedded OS.

> The
> hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent
> GUI 

Lack? We have several. What are you smoking?


> or shrink-wrapped software is not important, 

Actually there's shrink wrapped software for Linux. Just because you
haven't seen it in Wal-Mart doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

> because the thing
> sits in a closet somewhere running Apache. Nobody has to interface with
> it very often. In this case, Linux's shortcomings aren't shortcomings at
> all.

And the ones you see, are imaginary, like your friends.

> 
>>   I will give credit where it is due, though... at least you're not
>>   running Windows.
> 
> That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the look
> and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE. 

Like I've said before... Gnome2 is much more similar to OSX these days, in
appearance.

> The
> file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same,
> the operating conventions look the same.

Oh please, there's not much difference there with OSX. There's only so
many ways to build an intuitive menu.

> The main difference being that
> the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.


You mean that we don't tie them directly to the kernel...so unlike Windows
if the GUI crashes the whole system doesn't go down. That's a strength
idiot.

In article <XeT%c.17885$rq3.4594@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com> (Thu, 09 Sep
2004 07:03:19 +0000), Peter Ammon wrote:

> Do you even know what OS X is?

An operating system unable to get a G, PG, or even R rating, so it's
unsuitable for children of any age?

In article <clund-E0005A.14213509092004@amstwist00.chello.com> (Thu, 09
Sep 2004 14:21:36 +0200), C Lund wrote:

> In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
>  Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
> 
>> Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.
> 
>> You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any dates, 
>> sister.
> 
> Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?

No, it's the typical level of Usenet trollery.

-- 
"Wait until the SCO battles are over and let's see if [Linux is] free or not."
-- Darl McBride,  CEO, The SCO Group.  3 August 2004.

In article <Z7udndL5P_Mb493cRVn-ug@bresnan.com> (Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:04:23
-0600), GreyCloud wrote:

> S.Heenan wrote:
>> Pay particular attention to posts from Peter Kohlmann, Sinister Midget, Grey 
>> Cloud, 7 aka e7, Hamilcar Barca [...]
>> 
> And wintrolling morons like you get flamed.

It called me a name!

> Is it any wonder, due to your stupidity, you get flamed??

.... or killfiled.

-- 
"[By filing a lawsuit against a large corporation,] SCO can confuse as many
 people as they want. They're still going to eventually go out of business.
 They can't win these suits."
-- Bruce Perens.  Co-founder, Open Source Initiative.

In article <20040909130807.100$ri@news.newsreader.com>,
 Hamilcar Barca <hamilcar@tld.always.invalid> wrote:

> In article <XeT%c.17885$rq3.4594@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com> (Thu, 09 Sep
> 2004 07:03:19 +0000), Peter Ammon wrote:
> 
> > Do you even know what OS X is?
> 
> An operating system unable to get a G, PG, or even R rating, so it's
> unsuitable for children of any age?

Yep, in other words, designed by adults, for adults. ;)

-- 
Rick...

In article <2qb9miFt4bmfU1@uni-berlin.de> (Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:03:46
-0600), ray wrote:

> It is too bad that it is difficult to buy a properly set up Linux
> computer.

It isn't difficult.  I install Slackware 2.0 with no problems (other than
wasting 90 minutes trying to boot from an improperly configured LILO
floppy.)

> I maintain that once a Linux system is properly set up, it is no more
> difficult to use than an MS or MAC system

Linux is certainly less difficult to use than a Windows system, but
usually more difficult than a Macintosh.  Apple's customers (seem to)
insist that software publishers follow Apple's UI standards, and this
makes the UI of these applications quite regular and therefore (usually)
easier to use.

-- 
"There is a huge switching cost to using a different operating system ...
 It is this switching cost that has given customers the patience to stick
 with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO..."
-- Aaron Contorer (General Mananger, C++) memo to Bill Gates. 21 Feb 1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:21:36 +0200,
 C Lund <clund@notam02SPAMBLOCK.no> wrote:
> In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
>  Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
>
>> > But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
>> > If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
>> > group because at least they are friendly.
>> > Sharon
>
>> Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.
>
>> You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any dates, 
>> sister.
>
> Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?
>

Did you notice that "Remote Wonder" is using MS-Windows to post? 

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-- 
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
All life is a conjugation of the verb "to eat"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:29:36 -0700,
 Ralph <noting@doing.com> wrote:
> S.Heenan wrote:
>
>> C Lund wrote:
>>> In article <413F9B87.50206@kicks.butt>,
>>> Remote Wonder <ati@kicks.butt> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
>>>>> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a
>>>>> windows group because at least they are friendly.
>>>>> Sharon
>>>
>>>> Go hang around in Mac groups then you dumb whore.
>>>
>>>> You'll get a lot of advice, but probably won't be asked for any
>>>> dates, sister.
>>>
>>> Is this the typical level of Linux advocacy?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> That's a mild and highly typical example.
>> Pay particular attention to posts from Peter Kohlmann, Sinister Midget,
>> Grey Cloud, 7 aka e7, Hamilcar Barca, and the grandmaster, Ralph, who, in
>> his own mind, has never once been proven wrong.
>
> That's just because I don't make claims I can't support the way Mutt Nuts
> do. 

Your obsession is showing again. 

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-- 
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"`If there's anything more important than my ego around, I 
want it caught and shot now.'"
	-- Zaphod

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On 2004-09-09, Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:
[deletia]
>> hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent
>> GUI 
>
> Lack? We have several. What are you smoking?
>
>
>> or shrink-wrapped software is not important, 

	If you really think that shrinkwrapped software is so important then
you really shouldn't be using a Macintosh. Macs are only slightly better than
Linux in this area.

>
> Actually there's shrink wrapped software for Linux. Just because you
> haven't seen it in Wal-Mart doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
[deletia]

	Most commercial software isn't of the "shrinkwrap" variety acutally.


-- 

	vi isn't easy to use.				 |||
							/ | \
	vi is easy to REPLACE.




                                                     

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On 2004-09-09, Richard Kilpatrick <delorean@NOSPAMbtconnect.com> wrote:
> On 9/9/04 12:43 am, in article 2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de, "Sharon
> Kristiansen" <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote:
>
>> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
>> direction that it seems to be heading in.
>> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
>> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
>
> Niiiiiice, linux and MacOS advocacy crosspost. Let the flamewar commence!
>
> (My Linux experience - Debian Sarge doesn't like my Dell, in fact, nothing
> likes my Dell, either the SCSI or the Radeon, there's always an excuse - but
> Playstation 2 Linux is painless, if a little slow due to only having 32Mb of
> RAM).

	"brand name" computers are usually a mistake. There is ZERO quality
difference. Any given chipset is going to be of identical quality regardless
of who sells it to you. The only thing the "branded" systems can do for you is
to add an extra layer of proprietary crap to make servicing the machine
difficult.

	This notion that PC's need be "branded" is an idea perpetrated by
suckers and Apple users.

-- 

	vi isn't easy to use.				 |||
							/ | \
	vi is easy to REPLACE.




                                                     

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:59:54 -0500, JEDIDIAH wrote:

> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
> On 2004-09-09, Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:
> [deletia]
>>> hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent
>>> GUI 
>>
>> Lack? We have several. What are you smoking?
>>
>>
>>> or shrink-wrapped software is not important, 
> 
> 	If you really think that shrinkwrapped software is so important then
> you really shouldn't be using a Macintosh. Macs are only slightly better than
> Linux in this area.

Besides...it's not like there's some huge lack of actual capability.

> 
> 
>> Actually there's shrink wrapped software for Linux. Just because you
>> haven't seen it in Wal-Mart doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> [deletia]
> 
> 	Most commercial software isn't of the "shrinkwrap" variety acutally.

Perhaps. Depends on the definition you're using I suppose.

"Donn Miller" <dmmiller@cvzoom.net> wrote in message 
news:2qaeraFseaarU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Rapskat wrote:
>
>> Of course, there is nothing wrong with Apple.  Sure enough is a damned
>> sight better than M$.  But I do like the fact that I can go to justabout
>> any comp shop and purchase hardware that will work on my Linux systems,
>> and that I'm not locked into a proprietary hardware/software platform 
>> that
>> if anything is even more expensive than in the WinWorld, even if it is
>> better quality.
>>
>> With LGX/OSS, I get quality, flexibility, *and* affordability, which is
>> something that just ain't quite there elsewhere.
>
> Very nice answer.  Apple at least contributes to open source. Microsoft? 
> Well, they contribute a lot of proprietary closed-source software and 
> ideas.  Sender ID and MS Office are two examples.  Apple's OS X is at 
> least partially open source.  MS offerings are fully closed-source and 
> proprietary.  Everything MS offers are fully, completely closed.
~ <snip>.

But MS *have* made strides in this area. The JAVA framework is still 
proprietry (SUN failed to pass the ECMA tests). The .NET Framework has been 
implemented (reasonably well from my testing) in MONO 
(http://www.go-mono.com/). This implementation is based on the open CLI 
published by MS and ratified by the ECMA.

In article <pan.2004.09.09.16.19.04.755221@NOSPAM.liamslider.com>,
 Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> > 
> > That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is 
> > OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very 
> > Windows derivative GUI shells on it. If I wanted something that worked 
> > and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the 
> > real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does 
> > any modern Windows version. 
> 
> 
> KDE and Gnome are not the only GUIs avaliable...and Gnome is closer to
> OSX these days than to Windows from what I've seen of it. Many of the
> other GUIs are *nothing* like Windows. Blackbox, Fluxbox, Enlightenment,
> Windowmaker, Afterstep, and many others look nothing like Windows.
> 
> 
> >
> >> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you pay for, often less,
> >> > but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a fare-thee-well.
> >> 
> >>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
> >>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> > 
> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful
> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is. You have
> > to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop
> > CS.
> 
> GIMP is a fine app. But we also have Photoshop 7.

You legally have the uncompiled source code for an Adobe product? This 
is news.


> We also have CinePaint,
> which I must say, blows Photoshop out of the water. And CinePaint is
> developed by professional motion picture studios, for high end graphics
> manipulation. Screw "shrink wrapped software" this is what the *big* boys
> play with.


What do you have for vector graphics? I.E. Illustrator and Freehand 
equivalents?

> >>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
> >>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
> > 
> > Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS.
> 
> And desktop OS, and embedded OS.

Yes, I forgot, it does make a pretty good embedded OS. I've an HDTV 
digital photo player that allows me to view my digital photo collection 
on my High-Definition TV as slide shows that runs on Linux. It's called 
a 'Roku". 

I Will agree that it's a viable Desktop when real publishing software 
like InDesign and QuarkXpress are available for it. Until then, it's 
somewhat less than useful to me.

> > The
> > hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent
> > GUI 
> 
> Lack? We have several. What are you smoking?

You have several GUI's.  As to "decent" GUIs that's a matter of 
interpretation.
> 
> 
> > or shrink-wrapped software is not important, 
> 
> Actually there's shrink wrapped software for Linux. Just because you
> haven't seen it in Wal-Mart doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> 
> > because the thing
> > sits in a closet somewhere running Apache. Nobody has to interface with
> > it very often. In this case, Linux's shortcomings aren't shortcomings at
> > all.
> 
> And the ones you see, are imaginary, like your friends.
> 
> > 
> >>   I will give credit where it is due, though... at least you're not
> >>   running Windows.
> > 
> > That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the look
> > and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE. 
> 
> Like I've said before... Gnome2 is much more similar to OSX these days, in
> appearance.
> 
> > The
> > file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same,
> > the operating conventions look the same.
> 
> Oh please, there's not much difference there with OSX. There's only so
> many ways to build an intuitive menu.
> 
> > The main difference being that
> > the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.

> You mean that we don't tie them directly to the kernel...so unlike Windows
> if the GUI crashes the whole system doesn't go down. That's a strength
> idiot.

No, I mean that just below the surface, you run into CLI.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 20:21:20 +0000, George Graves wrote:

<snip>
>> >
>> >> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you pay for, often less,
>> >> > but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a fare-thee-well.
>> >> 
>> >>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
>> >>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
>> > 
>> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful
>> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is. You have
>> > to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop
>> > CS.
>> 
>> GIMP is a fine app. But we also have Photoshop 7.
> 
> You legally have the uncompiled source code for an Adobe product? This 
> is news.

Who ever said anything about source code. Linux may be Open Source
software, but the software that runs on it does not have to be.

> 
> 
>> We also have CinePaint,
>> which I must say, blows Photoshop out of the water. And CinePaint is
>> developed by professional motion picture studios, for high end graphics
>> manipulation. Screw "shrink wrapped software" this is what the *big*
>> boys play with.
> 
> 
> What do you have for vector graphics? I.E. Illustrator and Freehand
> equivalents?

Inkscape is one quite popular tool, probably the best. Gestalter is
another one that appears to be quite good. There's also Sketch.



> 
>> >>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
>> >>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
>> > 
>> > Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS.
>> 
>> And desktop OS, and embedded OS.
> 
> Yes, I forgot, it does make a pretty good embedded OS. I've an HDTV
> digital photo player that allows me to view my digital photo collection
> on my High-Definition TV as slide shows that runs on Linux. It's called
> a 'Roku".

Don't forget the TiVo...it's also been used in PDAs.

> 
> I Will agree that it's a viable Desktop when real publishing software
> like InDesign and QuarkXpress are available for it. Until then, it's
> somewhat less than useful to me.

Scribus 1.2 is already in use professionally.

> 
>> > The
>> > hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a
>> > decent GUI
>> 
>> Lack? We have several. What are you smoking?
> 
> You have several GUI's.  As to "decent" GUIs that's a matter of
> interpretation.

I know that in your mind only OSX is a decent GUI...but you're a Mac
fanatic. Believe me, we have no problems on the GUI front. Our GUI is
certainly better than MS Windows at any rate. Ask anyone who's switched
from one to the other. 

<snip>
>> You mean that we don't tie them directly to the kernel...so unlike
>> Windows if the GUI crashes the whole system doesn't go down. That's a
>> strength idiot.
> 
> No, I mean that just below the surface, you run into CLI.

You're one to complain about that, you're running OSX....CLI is right
under the surface for you too. That's a good thing. What MS does is
stupidity, bad design. Anyone who knows anything about solid OS design has
told them this over the years and they never listened. 

begin  Andy Haynes wrote:

> "Donn Miller" <dmmiller@cvzoom.net> wrote in message
> news:2qaeraFseaarU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> Rapskat wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, there is nothing wrong with Apple.  Sure enough is a damned
>>> sight better than M$.  But I do like the fact that I can go to justabout
>>> any comp shop and purchase hardware that will work on my Linux systems,
>>> and that I'm not locked into a proprietary hardware/software platform
>>> that
>>> if anything is even more expensive than in the WinWorld, even if it is
>>> better quality.
>>>
>>> With LGX/OSS, I get quality, flexibility, *and* affordability, which is
>>> something that just ain't quite there elsewhere.
>>
>> Very nice answer.  Apple at least contributes to open source. Microsoft?
>> Well, they contribute a lot of proprietary closed-source software and
>> ideas.  Sender ID and MS Office are two examples.  Apple's OS X is at
>> least partially open source.  MS offerings are fully closed-source and
>> proprietary.  Everything MS offers are fully, completely closed.
> ~ <snip>.
> 
> But MS *have* made strides in this area. The JAVA framework is still
> proprietry (SUN failed to pass the ECMA tests). The .NET Framework has
> been implemented (reasonably well from my testing) in MONO
> (http://www.go-mono.com/). This implementation is based on the open CLI
> published by MS and ratified by the ECMA.

Good. Now point us to the site where you can download Mono *and* NET for
Alpha, for AMD64, for Z900. 
Come back when ready to do so
-- 
Another name for a Windows tutorial is crash course

In article <pan.2004.09.09.12.44.26.157931@nomail.com>,
 Rick <none@nomail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:
> 
> > In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> > In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
> >> >> > VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
> >> >> > first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... 
> >> >> > they're 
> >> >> > worth it!
> >> >> 
> >> >>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
> >> >>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
> >> >>   after raping your cornhole?
> >> >
> >> > If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been 
> >> > "ripped off" either completely or even partially. 
> >> 
> >>   Bullshit...even with that 10% discount that you think you got with
> >>   your friends school ID.
> > 
> > I've never gotten a 10% discount with "a friend's school ID." I pay what 
> > Apple asks, and I have no problem with it. That you do is your problem, 
> > not anyone else's.
> > 
> >> > We've bought a great 
> >> > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 
> >> 
> >>   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
> >>   the price by about 50%.
> > 
> > I don't require that they "cut the price" at all.
> 
> Many people would buy Macs if they had a lower sticker price.

I repeat, *I* don't require a price cut to buy a Mac. I'll buy one every 
time. When it's time to buy a new computer, I don't even THINK about a 
Windows box. The fact that Windows computers are available for less than 
US$500 and have a faster "clock speed" means NOTHING to me. They won't 
run OSX, and that's the bottom line. I pay what Apple asks because I 
believe that Macs are worth what they cost. Like the difference between 
a new Pontiac GTO (ne Australian Holden) and a new Bently Continental 
GT. The Pontiac is fine, handles well, has good performance, but it 
ain't no Bently in the same way that a cheap Windows box ain't no Mac.

> >> 
> >> > All Linux has 
> >> > going for it is it's free
> >> 
> >>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
> >>   were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
> >>   download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
> >>   Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
> > 
> > That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is 
> > OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very 
> > Windows derivative GUI shells on it.
> 
> Hmmm... OS X... A command line OS with a GUI shell on it...

Shows how uninformed you are on this subject. Aqua is not a "shell"

> > If I wanted something that worked 
> > and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the 
> > real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does 
> > any modern Windows version. 
> 
> You obviously haven't used LInux lately. ANd my desktop look more like a
> NeXt desktop than windows.

But does it work like a NeXT desktop?
> 
> > 
> >> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
> >> > pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
> >> > fare-thee-well.
> >> 
> >>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
> >>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> > 
> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is. You have 
> > to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop 
> > CS.
> 
> If you are using GIMP for Web based graphics, there isn't anything better.
> If you must use Photoshop, you can run it (7) under WINE. That's good
> enough for Disney.
> 
> > 
> (snip)
> > 
> > That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the look 
> > and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE.
> 
> Maybe thats because of the taskbar metaphor.
> 
> > The 
> > file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same, 
> > the operating conventions look the same. The main difference being that 
> > the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.
> 
> ... and so what if the OS can look like window$. That can make new users
> feel comfortable.

Because one of the reasons I stick with Mac is because I HATE the look 
and feel of Windows. Why I would I want to run something that:

1) Looks and feels like the OS I despise.

2) Is more difficult to install and maintain than the OS that I despise.

3) Has less productivity software available than the OS that I despise.

All the disadvantages of Windows and none of the advantages except its 
virtually free. I'm neither that cheap nor that poor that I consider 
that an advantage. I also would rather use a computer than fiddle with 
it.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

In article <3du512-skf.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
 Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> 
> >>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
> >>   were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
> >>   download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
> >>   Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
> >
> > That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is 
> > OSX. 
> 
>   Maybe less polished, but sophisticated? Prove it.
> 
> > It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very 
> > Windows derivative GUI shells on it.
> 
>   So, in other words, you dont know what the hell you're talking about.
> 
> > If I wanted something that worked 
> > and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE,I'd opt for the 
> > real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does 
> > any modern Windows version. 
> 
>   Dont worry, someday the Mac will be as customizable as KDE.
> 
> >> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
> >> > pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
> >> > fare-thee-well.
> >> 
> >>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
> >>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> >
> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
> 
>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
>    well use "the real thing".

Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
on Windows.

> > You have 
> > to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop 
> > CS.
> 
>    So youve now spent $3000 to do what I can do for free. Arent you
>    proud?

Since Photoshop is only about $600 (assuming you are buying it for the 
first time) I don't get what you are trying to say. 
> 
> >>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
> >>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
> >
> > Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS. The 
> > hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent 
> > GUI or shrink-wrapped software is not important,
> 
>    What is your obsession with shrink-wrap? Would you buy a turd if
>    someone shrinkwrapped it for you?

I buy stuff that my industry uses. These are universally used commercial 
packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.

> > because the thing sits 
> > in a closet somewhere running Apache. Nobody has to interface with it 
> > very often.
>   
>    Wrong...Linux is used *because* people have to interface with it
>    often. It has to work, not just be a pretty piece of furniture like a
>    lamp or a couch or a Mac.

How little you know.
> 
> > In this case, Linux's shortcomings aren't shortcomings at 
> > all.
> >
> >>   I will give credit where it is due, though... at least you're not
> >>   running Windows. 
> >
> > That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the look 
> > and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE.
> 
>   Thats only because you dont know what you're talking about.
> 
>   http://www.lynucs.org/?kde

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:23:14 +0000, George Graves wrote:

>  When it's time to buy a new computer, I don't even THINK about a 
> Windows box


Me neither, I think about a Linux box.

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:29:34 +0000, George Graves wrote:

> I buy stuff that my industry uses. These are universally used commercial 
> packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.


The industry is changing.

George Graves wrote:


> I repeat, *I* don't require a price cut to buy a Mac. I'll buy one every
> time. When it's time to buy a new computer, I don't even THINK about a
> Windows box. The fact that Windows computers are available for less than
> US$500 and have a faster "clock speed" means NOTHING to me. They won't
> run OSX, and that's the bottom line. 

Bottom line: we both like UNIX.  

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On 2004-09-09, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <3du512-skf.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[deletia]
>> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
>> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
>> 
>>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
>>    well use "the real thing".
>
> Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
> on Windows.

	Just who the H*LL do you think YOU kidding?

[deletia]

	Apple has a TINY fraction of the software library available to WinDOS
and always has. Apple might have some of the better payware. However, most
end users aren't interested in those sorts of apps.

-- 

	vi isn't easy to use.				 |||
							/ | \
	vi is easy to REPLACE.




                                                     

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:

>>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
>>   were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
>>   download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
>>   Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
> 
> That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is
> OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very
> Windows derivative GUI shells on it. If I wanted something that worked
> and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the
> real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does
> any modern Windows version.


Right there you just showed your complete and total ignorance about modern
LGX.

If you had actually used any distro more recent than Redhat 5, you would
realize just how idiotic your statements above sounded.  Modern Linux
Window Managers and Desktop Environments have more eye candy and
functionality available than Windows and Panther combined.

You really need to do a bit more research on something before you start
spouting off about it.  Just because you may be a moron doesn't mean you
have to act like one.

Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote in message news:<2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> 
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.


 Perhaps you'd prefer FreeBSD.

You have been PLONKED for shear stupidity... Advocating APPLE in a LINUX
forum is.... dumb...




Sharon Kristiansen wrote:

> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> 
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.
> 
> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!
> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> video driver or sound system.
> 
> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> 
> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon

-- 

******************************************************************************
                     Registered Linux User Number 185956
              FSF Associate Member number 2340 since 05/20/2004
             Join me in chat at #linux-users on irc.freenode.net
    Buy an Xbox for $149.00, run linux on it and Microsoft loses $150.00!
     6:51pm  up 9 days, 19:04,  6 users,  load average: 2.07, 2.18, 2.20

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 22:50:26 GMT, Rapskat <rapskat@mailblocks.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:
>
>>>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
>>>   were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
>>>   download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
>>>   Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
>> 
>> That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is
>> OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very
>> Windows derivative GUI shells on it. If I wanted something that worked
>> and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the
>> real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it does
>> any modern Windows version.
>
>
>Right there you just showed your complete and total ignorance about modern
>LGX.

What do guitars have to do with Linux?

http://www.godinguitars.com/godinlgxp.htm



>If you had actually used any distro more recent than Redhat 5, you would
>realize just how idiotic your statements above sounded.  Modern Linux
>Window Managers and Desktop Environments have more eye candy and
>functionality available than Windows and Panther combined.
>
>You really need to do a bit more research on something before you start
>spouting off about it.  Just because you may be a moron doesn't mean you
>have to act like one.

Alex Christmann

In article <slrnck1nn8.gpc.jedi@nomad.mishnet>,
 JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote:

> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
> On 2004-09-09, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article <3du512-skf.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> [deletia]
> >> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
> >> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
> >> 
> >>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
> >>    well use "the real thing".
> >
> > Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
> > on Windows.
> 
> 	Just who the H*LL do you think YOU kidding?

Nobody. It's just true. MS Office for Windows is a lot better for the 
Mac than it is on Windows. So is Illustrator, Photoshop, and especially 
InDesign.

> [deletia]
> 
> 	Apple has a TINY fraction of the software library available to WinDOS
> and always has.

True. Windows users put up with a lot more garbage software than Mac 
users will put up with. So, out of dozens of Word Processors available 
for Windows, the only one anyone uses is Word, so who do the other 23 
sell to? Each other, I guess. And the reason is simple. Word is the 
world standard and the other WPs aren't as good. So who needs 24 WPs 
when the world really only accepts one?

> Apple might have some of the better payware. However, most
> end users aren't interested in those sorts of apps.

End users don't use Word Processors?

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> >
>> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
>> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
>> 
>>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
>>    well use "the real thing".
>
> Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
> on Windows.

  Thats not surprising, but they still suck. And It didnt take long at
  all to see Microsoft Excel crash on OS X right in the Apple store,
  that was pretty funny. I didnt even do anything, just opened it and
  blammo, an error popped up and locked the machine solid.

  If that were to happen on Linux, I would probably be able to switch to
  a console and kill the offending process, I dont know if Mac has that
  capability yet.

>> > You have 
>> > to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop 
>> > CS.
>> 
>>    So youve now spent $3000 to do what I can do for free. Arent you
>>    proud?
>
> Since Photoshop is only about $600 (assuming you are buying it for the 
> first time) I don't get what you are trying to say. 

  Im saying that not many people can dish out $600 + $2400 for a mac
  just to edit some freaking photos.

>> > Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS. The 
>> > hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent 
>> > GUI or shrink-wrapped software is not important,
>> 
>>    What is your obsession with shrink-wrap? Would you buy a turd if
>>    someone shrinkwrapped it for you?
>
> I buy stuff that my industry uses.

   Oh, and I thought we were talking about personal home computers.

> These are universally used commercial 
> packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.

   Maybe so, but PhotoShop isnt one of them.
   

In article <o9e712-0gj.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
 Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> >
> >> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
> >> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
> >> 
> >>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
> >>    well use "the real thing".
> >
> > Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
> > on Windows.
> 
>   Thats not surprising, but they still suck. And It didnt take long at
>   all to see Microsoft Excel crash on OS X right in the Apple store,
>   that was pretty funny. I didnt even do anything, just opened it and
>   blammo, an error popped up and locked the machine solid.
> 
>   If that were to happen on Linux, I would probably be able to switch to
>   a console and kill the offending process, I dont know if Mac has that
>   capability yet.

Only since day one of OSX. I use Excel. I've never seen it crash. and in 
the 4 years that I've been running OSX, I've never had it crash. It 
always works - perfectly. I wouldn't even judge Windows by what it did 
in a store. The worst maintained and the most maltreated computers in 
the world are store demo models.

> >> > You have 
> >> > to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop 
> >> > CS.
> >> 
> >>    So youve now spent $3000 to do what I can do for free. Arent you
> >>    proud?
> >
> > Since Photoshop is only about $600 (assuming you are buying it for the 
> > first time) I don't get what you are trying to say. 
> 
>   Im saying that not many people can dish out $600 + $2400 for a mac
>   just to edit some freaking photos.

If that's all their interested in doind they shouldn't be buying a 
computer in the first place. Its a waste of money.

> 
> >> > Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS. The 
> >> > hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent 
> >> > GUI or shrink-wrapped software is not important,
> >> 
> >>    What is your obsession with shrink-wrap? Would you buy a turd if
> >>    someone shrinkwrapped it for you?
> >
> > I buy stuff that my industry uses.
> 
>    Oh, and I thought we were talking about personal home computers.
> 
> > These are universally used commercial 
> > packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.
> 
>    Maybe so, but PhotoShop isnt one of them.

I have the latest GIMP, its NOT photoshop by a long shot.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:26:14 +0000, George Graves wrote:

>> > These are universally used commercial 
>> > packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.
>> 
>>    Maybe so, but PhotoShop isnt one of them.
> 
> I have the latest GIMP, its NOT photoshop by a long shot.


Perhaps you should pay close attention, and retain the knowledge that we
have tried to put into the lump of grey sludge that you seem to think is a
brain. Photoshop 7 runs on Linux.

Read with me again now, try to put it into your long term memory...

Photoshop 7 runs on Linux.

In article <20040909131859.207$vd@news.newsreader.com>,
 Hamilcar Barca <hamilcar@tld.always.invalid> wrote:

> In article <2qb9miFt4bmfU1@uni-berlin.de> (Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:03:46
> -0600), ray wrote:
> 
> > It is too bad that it is difficult to buy a properly set up Linux
> > computer.
> 
> It isn't difficult.  I install Slackware 2.0 with no problems (other than
> wasting 90 minutes trying to boot from an improperly configured LILO
> floppy.)
> 
> > I maintain that once a Linux system is properly set up, it is no more
> > difficult to use than an MS or MAC system
> 
> Linux is certainly less difficult to use than a Windows system, but
> usually more difficult than a Macintosh.  Apple's customers (seem to)
> insist that software publishers follow Apple's UI standards, and this
> makes the UI of these applications quite regular and therefore (usually)
> easier to use.

This is an important lesson, one that is not lost on the successful players in 
the GUI software market. In the early days of the Mac, companies lived and died 
by whether they "got" the Mac UI. 

http://www.infernosoft.com/company/analysis1.html

It is a lesson apparently lost on many Linux developers. :-(

-- 
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Why does Windows have a left mouse button? 

I believe it was George Graves who said...
> In article <o9e712-0gj.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> >> >
>> >> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
>> >> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
>> >> 
>> >>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
>> >>    well use "the real thing".
>> >
>> > Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
>> > on Windows.
>> 
>>   Thats not surprising, but they still suck. And It didnt take long at
>>   all to see Microsoft Excel crash on OS X right in the Apple store,
>>   that was pretty funny. I didnt even do anything, just opened it and
>>   blammo, an error popped up and locked the machine solid.
>> 
>>   If that were to happen on Linux, I would probably be able to switch to
>>   a console and kill the offending process, I dont know if Mac has that
>>   capability yet.
>
> Only since day one of OSX. I use Excel. I've never seen it crash. and in 
> the 4 years that I've been running OSX, I've never had it crash. It 
> always works - perfectly. I wouldn't even judge Windows by what it did 
> in a store. The worst maintained and the most maltreated computers in 
> the world are store demo models.

 Dont get me wrong, I am not judging the Mac poorly because of that
 crash... I just thought it was funny. And if you can switch to a
 console from the OS X desktop, thats pretty cool.

>> >>    So youve now spent $3000 to do what I can do for free. Arent you
>> >>    proud?
>> >
>> > Since Photoshop is only about $600 (assuming you are buying it for the 
>> > first time) I don't get what you are trying to say. 
>> 
>>   Im saying that not many people can dish out $600 + $2400 for a mac
>>   just to edit some freaking photos.
>
> If that's all their interested in doind they shouldn't be buying a 
> computer in the first place. Its a waste of money.

  Agreed.
 
>> > These are universally used commercial 
>> > packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.
>> 
>>    Maybe so, but PhotoShop isnt one of them.
>
> I have the latest GIMP, its NOT photoshop by a long shot.

  What can you do with Photoshop that you cannot do with Gimp/Cinepaint?

Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote in message news:<2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> 
> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.
> 
> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!
> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> video driver or sound system.
> 
> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> 
> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon

kid, mac won't save your life anyway.

It's slow and almost useless, there is no game, no free or pirated
software ($$$$$$$$!!!)... completely nothing.

However, if you believe it's job to use only the finder to browse your
beautiful file icons and watch the cool docks jumping on deskop all
the day, then yes, mac is for you.

In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
 Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> > In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> >
> >> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS works 
> >> > VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software is 
> >> > first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more... they're 
> >> > worth it!
> >> 
> >>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being completely
> >>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash register
> >>   after raping your cornhole?
> >
> > If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't been 
> > "ripped off" either completely or even partially. 
> 
>   Bullshit...even with that 10% discount that you think you got with
>   your friends school ID.
> 
> > We've bought a great 
> > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 
> 
>   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
>   the price by about 50%.
> 
> > All Linux has 
> > going for it is it's free
> 
>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that they
>   were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free Linux
>   download and decided to join the herd, they are still far behind
>   Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
> 
> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you 
> > pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a 
> > fare-thee-well.
> 
>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> 
>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
> 
>   I will give credit where it is due, though... at least you're not
>   running Windows. 

I'll give credit where credit is due too. You're delusional.

-- 
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"

In article <1gjuk8f.1vdt6zrfxq8tqN%peter@seahaze.demon.co.uk>,
 peter@seahaze.demon.co.uk (Peter Hayes) wrote:

> C Lund <clund@notam02SPAMBLOCK.no> wrote:
> 
> > In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > > We've bought a great 
> > > > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 
> > > 
> > >   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
> > >   the price by about 50%.
> > 
> > We have had very many price / spec comparisons between PCs and macs 
> > here on CSMA. In most cases, it turns out that two more or less 
> > equivalent systems cost more or less the same. And no, a bunch of PC 
> > components slathered with a mass of isolation foam is not the 
> > equivalent of a mac. <http://www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp200nc/>
> > 
> > You'll be hard pressed to find a PC that costs 50% of a specific mac 
> > model and still matches it's specs.
> 
> It all depends on what you're doing with the machines.
> 
> No high-end Mac will ever approach the performance of a similarly speced
> AMD PC for 3D rendering.
> 
> And you could put together two AMDs for the price of a single Mac -
> great for network rendering in Bryce 5, for example.
> 
> A Mac is certainly the best for day-to-day use, with Linux (perhaps with
> Wine/VmWare for the odd occasion I need a Windows only app) not far
> behind. Windows for day-to-day use? Never.

Peter, if what you say is true, why is Pixar moving to G5's ?

-- 
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"

Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

>   Thats not surprising, but they still suck. And It didnt take long at
>   all to see Microsoft Excel crash on OS X right in the Apple store,
>   that was pretty funny. I didnt even do anything, just opened it and
>   blammo, an error popped up and locked the machine solid.

buullllllshit.... it didn't crash osx, yes excel may of hung but you 
should of just forced it to quit and kept going. it didn't kill osx, 
bulllshit...... errors don't "pop" on the screen, that's OS9, not OSX.

"apple, option, esc"

sounds like you need a slight education.

http://www.finseth.com/parts/mac-keys.html

>   If that were to happen on Linux, I would probably be able to switch to
>   a console and kill the offending process, I dont know if Mac has that
>   capability yet.

had this capability since 1987. next question.

> >> > You have 
> >> > to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing, Photoshop 
> >> > CS.
> >> 
> >>    So youve now spent $3000 to do what I can do for free. Arent you
> >>    proud?
> >
> > Since Photoshop is only about $600 (assuming you are buying it for the 
> > first time) I don't get what you are trying to say. 
> 
>   Im saying that not many people can dish out $600 + $2400 for a mac
>   just to edit some freaking photos.

that's why there is the $35 graphicconverter that runs circles around 
GIMP. and iPhoto is free with every mac.

> >> > Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS. The 
> >> > hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent 
> >> > GUI or shrink-wrapped software is not important,
> >> 
> >>    What is your obsession with shrink-wrap? Would you buy a turd if
> >>    someone shrinkwrapped it for you?
> >
> > I buy stuff that my industry uses.

and your industry doesn't use UNIX? osx and linux are very little 
different.

>    Oh, and I thought we were talking about personal home computers.
> 
> > These are universally used commercial 
> > packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.
> 
>    Maybe so, but PhotoShop isnt one of them.
>    
linux doesn't have anything close to Photoshop, CinePaint is a nightmare 
in usefulness.

JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote:

> > Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
> > on Windows.
> 
> 	Just who the H*LL do you think YOU kidding?
> 
> [deletia]
> 
> 	Apple has a TINY fraction of the software library available to WinDOS
> and always has. Apple might have some of the better payware. However, most
> end users aren't interested in those sorts of apps.

It's not as tiny as you think, 18,000 apps is the 2nd largest library 
outside of windows. Funny thing is, MOST all of them are high quality, 
whereas windows has 120,000 apps, with about 5,000 built at the level of 
the Mac. Technically, the Mac has the highest quality software library 
in the world, something linux can only dream about, its quality level is 
less than 500 when you compare to the Gold Standard of Apps. Not too 
good in the big scheme of things.

Looks like you have some learning to do----

http://guide.apple.com/ussoftware.lasso

In article <5f3712xre.ln2@spinner.my.domain>,
 Jerry McBride <mcbrides9@comcast.net> wrote:

> 
> You have been PLONKED for shear stupidity... Advocating APPLE in a LINUX
> forum is.... dumb...
> 

Say, does that mean that we Mac fans can plonk all those Windroids who come over 
here to advocate Windoze in a Macintosh forum?

-- 
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Why does Windows have a left mouse button? 

In article <c5cfac8f.0409092009.469ba829@posting.google.com>,
 aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:

> Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote in message 
> news:<2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> > I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> > direction that it seems to be heading in.
> > From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> > other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> > 
> > Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> > even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> > Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> > 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> > 
> > However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> > support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> > dammed lame.
> > 
> > What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> > makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> > on the planet!
> > So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> > I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> > video driver or sound system.
> > 
> > I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> > QUALITY software right away.
> > Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> > 
> > But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> > If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> > group because at least they are friendly.
> > Sharon
> 
> kid, mac won't save your life anyway.
> 
> It's slow and almost useless, there is no game, no free or pirated
> software ($$$$$$$$!!!)... completely nothing.
> 
> However, if you believe it's job to use only the finder to browse your
> beautiful file icons and watch the cool docks jumping on deskop all
> the day, then yes, mac is for you.

Yeah, there's nothing. 

No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut Pro. No 
Safari web browser, no email, no Unix development tools. No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
No X-Windows environment. No StarOffice. No Microsoft Office. 

Nothing at all. Nothing to interest you, nothing to pique your curiosity, 
nothing for you to research. 

Nothing that you know the first thing about.

-- 
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
Otto: "Haha! Apes do not read philosophy!"
Wanda: "Yes, they do. They just don't understand it." 

Woofbert wrote:

> In article <5f3712xre.ln2@spinner.my.domain>,
>  Jerry McBride <mcbrides9@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> You have been PLONKED for shear stupidity... Advocating APPLE in a LINUX
>> forum is.... dumb...
>> 
> 
> Say, does that mean that we Mac fans can plonk all those Windroids who
> come over here to advocate Windoze in a Macintosh forum?
> 

Macintosh forum?

Shouldn't you post in the BSD forum?

"Ah, but we're all using Unix now."
 -R. Nixon, paraphrase...

Jim Polaski wrote:

 
> Peter, if what you say is true, why is Pixar moving to G5's ?
> 

They love Unix.

So do we.

In article <qvk712-5rj.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
 Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> > In article <o9e712-0gj.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a 
> >> >> > useful 
> >> >> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
> >> >> 
> >> >>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
> >> >>    well use "the real thing".
> >> >
> >> > Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
> >> > on Windows.
> >> 
> >>   Thats not surprising, but they still suck. And It didnt take long at
> >>   all to see Microsoft Excel crash on OS X right in the Apple store,
> >>   that was pretty funny. I didnt even do anything, just opened it and
> >>   blammo, an error popped up and locked the machine solid.
> >> 
> >>   If that were to happen on Linux, I would probably be able to switch to
> >>   a console and kill the offending process, I dont know if Mac has that
> >>   capability yet.
> >
> > Only since day one of OSX. I use Excel. I've never seen it crash. and in 
> > the 4 years that I've been running OSX, I've never had it crash. It 
> > always works - perfectly. I wouldn't even judge Windows by what it did 
> > in a store. The worst maintained and the most maltreated computers in 
> > the world are store demo models.
> 
>  Dont get me wrong, I am not judging the Mac poorly because of that
>  crash... I just thought it was funny. And if you can switch to a
>  console from the OS X desktop, thats pretty cool.

There are two ways to do it: launch the console window and use a command 
line to stop the process, or just go to the finder and select "force 
quit." and quite from there.

> >> >>    So youve now spent $3000 to do what I can do for free. Arent you
> >> >>    proud?
> >> >
> >> > Since Photoshop is only about $600 (assuming you are buying it for the 
> >> > first time) I don't get what you are trying to say. 
> >> 
> >>   Im saying that not many people can dish out $600 + $2400 for a mac
> >>   just to edit some freaking photos.
> >
> > If that's all their interested in doind they shouldn't be buying a 
> > computer in the first place. Its a waste of money.
> 
>   Agreed.
>  
> >> > These are universally used commercial 
> >> > packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.
> >> 
> >>    Maybe so, but PhotoShop isnt one of them.
> >
> > I have the latest GIMP, its NOT photoshop by a long shot.
> 
>   What can you do with Photoshop that you cannot do with Gimp/Cinepaint?

It's mostly the awful GIMP user interface that makes it so difficult to 
use. Also, there are hundreds of filters available for PS that aren't 
available for GIMP. I've never seen Cinepaint, can't comment.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

In article <pan.2004.09.10.03.50.31.867322@NOSPAM.liamslider.com>,
 Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:26:14 +0000, George Graves wrote:
> 
> >> > These are universally used commercial 
> >> > packages, many of which have NO Linux equivalent.
> >> 
> >>    Maybe so, but PhotoShop isnt one of them.
> > 
> > I have the latest GIMP, its NOT photoshop by a long shot.
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should pay close attention, and retain the knowledge that we
> have tried to put into the lump of grey sludge that you seem to think is a
> brain. Photoshop 7 runs on Linux.
> 
> Read with me again now, try to put it into your long term memory...
> 
> Photoshop 7 runs on Linux.

Please explain. BTW, no need to resort to personal rancor.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

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Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 20:21:20 GMT,
 George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <pan.2004.09.09.16.19.04.755221@NOSPAM.liamslider.com>,
>  Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:


<snip>

>> GIMP is a fine app. But we also have Photoshop 7.
>
> You legally have the uncompiled source code for an Adobe product? This 
> is news.
>
>

Think different, it runs under wine. 


>> We also have CinePaint,
>> which I must say, blows Photoshop out of the water. And CinePaint is
>> developed by professional motion picture studios, for high end graphics
>> manipulation. Screw "shrink wrapped software" this is what the *big* boys
>> play with.
>
>
> What do you have for vector graphics? I.E. Illustrator and Freehand 
> equivalents?
>
>> >>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
>> >>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
>> > 
>> > Did I say that Linux was worthless? It makes a great server OS.
>> 
>> And desktop OS, and embedded OS.
>
> Yes, I forgot, it does make a pretty good embedded OS. I've an HDTV 
> digital photo player that allows me to view my digital photo collection 
> on my High-Definition TV as slide shows that runs on Linux. It's called 
> a 'Roku". 
>
> I Will agree that it's a viable Desktop when real publishing software 
> like InDesign and QuarkXpress are available for it. Until then, it's 
> somewhat less than useful to me.
>


It *is* a viable desktop, now, for some. (myself and my non-geeky wife
included) If it doesn't meet your criteria, that doesn't mean it doesn't
meet others.

>> > The
>> > hardware's cheap, the OS is essentially free, and the lack of a decent
>> > GUI 
>> 
>> Lack? We have several. What are you smoking?
>
> You have several GUI's.  As to "decent" GUIs that's a matter of 
> interpretation.
>

So if only the OSX gui is "decent" does that mean that until OSX, Macs
didn't have a decent GUI? 


> 
>> 
>> > or shrink-wrapped software is not important, 
>> 
>> Actually there's shrink wrapped software for Linux. Just because you
>> haven't seen it in Wal-Mart doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
>> 
>> > because the thing
>> > sits in a closet somewhere running Apache. Nobody has to interface with
>> > it very often. In this case, Linux's shortcomings aren't shortcomings at
>> > all.
>> 
>> And the ones you see, are imaginary, like your friends.
>> 
>> > 
>> >>   I will give credit where it is due, though... at least you're not
>> >>   running Windows.
>> > 
>> > That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the look
>> > and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE. 
>> 
>> Like I've said before... Gnome2 is much more similar to OSX these days, in
>> appearance.
>> 
>> > The
>> > file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same,
>> > the operating conventions look the same.
>> 
>> Oh please, there's not much difference there with OSX. There's only so
>> many ways to build an intuitive menu.
>> 
>> > The main difference being that
>> > the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.
>
>> You mean that we don't tie them directly to the kernel...so unlike Windows
>> if the GUI crashes the whole system doesn't go down. That's a strength
>> idiot.
>
> No, I mean that just below the surface, you run into CLI.
>

If you want to, sure, just like OS. But you don't have to. 

You *do* know that OSX is based on a *nix kernel, right? with all the
CLI stuff you could want? 

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-- 
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
As practiced by computer science, the study of programming is an unholy
mixture of mathematics, literary criticism, and folklore.
-- B. A. Sheil, 1981

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On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:51:17 GMT,
 George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <qvk712-5rj.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>  Dont get me wrong, I am not judging the Mac poorly because of that
>>  crash... I just thought it was funny. And if you can switch to a
>>  console from the OS X desktop, thats pretty cool.
>
> There are two ways to do it: launch the console window and use a command 
> line to stop the process, or just go to the finder and select "force 
> quit." and quite from there.
>


No, that's not the same. Console mode, is outside of the context of the
GUI mode that the windowmanager is in. If said windowmanager (or the OSX
equiv) is hung, it won't let you "go to the finder" 

I realise that there are some areas of Linux and OSX which don't map
exactly to equivilents, I suspect that console mode may be one of them.

<snip>


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-- 
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Linux: The OS people choose without $200,000,000 of persuasion

Jim Polaski <jpolaski@NOSpaMync.net> wrote:

> In article <1gjuk8f.1vdt6zrfxq8tqN%peter@seahaze.demon.co.uk>,
>  peter@seahaze.demon.co.uk (Peter Hayes) wrote:
> 
> > C Lund <clund@notam02SPAMBLOCK.no> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> > >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > We've bought a great 
> > > > > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software. 
> > > > 
> > > >   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they cut
> > > >   the price by about 50%.
> > > 
> > > We have had very many price / spec comparisons between PCs and macs
> > > here on CSMA. In most cases, it turns out that two more or less 
> > > equivalent systems cost more or less the same. And no, a bunch of PC
> > > components slathered with a mass of isolation foam is not the 
> > > equivalent of a mac. <http://www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp200nc/>
> > > 
> > > You'll be hard pressed to find a PC that costs 50% of a specific mac
> > > model and still matches it's specs.
> > 
> > It all depends on what you're doing with the machines.
> > 
> > No high-end Mac will ever approach the performance of a similarly speced
> > AMD PC for 3D rendering.
> > 
> > And you could put together two AMDs for the price of a single Mac -
> > great for network rendering in Bryce 5, for example.
> > 
> > A Mac is certainly the best for day-to-day use, with Linux (perhaps with
> > Wine/VmWare for the odd occasion I need a Windows only app) not far
> > behind. Windows for day-to-day use? Never.
> 
> Peter, if what you say is true, why is Pixar moving to G5's ?

Because Pixar can write their Renderman apps for the 64 bit platform?
Also, perhaps because Steve Jobs is CEO of Pixar?

Has the move actually happened? I thought it was just speculation. And
is it everything, or is it just the creative stuff leaving the render
grunt to AMD/Linux? I suspect the latter. Which is what I said above.

But for us mere mortals stuck with our favourite 32 bit apps, moving to
the G5 offers only futureproofing, plus perhaps a small performance
boost.

Bryce 5 benchmark on AMD clocked at 1.6GHz - 194s
Bryce 5 benchmark on G4 clocked at 1.25GHz -  331s

Extrapolate these times to 2.5GHz clock speeds 
gives AMD = 130s and G4 = 172s

But since there's no such beast as a 2.5GHz G4 you'd have to shell out
$$$$ for a G5 and then the TCO equation for 3D rendering swings
substantially back in favour of AMD.

Unfortunately we don't have a 64 bit Windows OS to compare AMD and G5.

(Oddly enough, the most effective Windows OS in this context
is Windows ME).

-- 

Peter

In article <slrnck1nn8.gpc.jedi@nomad.mishnet>,
 JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote:

> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]

[Followup reset to include mac.advocacy so I can see any replies]

> On 2004-09-09, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article <3du512-skf.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> [deletia]
> >> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
> >> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
> >> 
> >>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
> >>    well use "the real thing".
> >
> > Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
> > on Windows.
> 
> 	Just who the H*LL do you think YOU kidding?

No, he's right.  I bought this Mac since it was a Unix with widely used 
standard commercial software available plus the ability to run OSS 
software.  At the time I was looking at Sun, Linux and Mac. IMO Apple 
has the best of both worlds.

> [deletia]
> 
> 	Apple has a TINY fraction of the software library available to WinDOS
> and always has. 

That "TINY fraction" is huge, many vendors sell a much greater 
percentage of software to Mac users than "market share" would indicate. 

BTW Find a "Garage Band" for windows or Linux; or a suite like 
iLife...or even "PageSpinner" for that matter.

> Apple might have some of the better payware. However, most
> end users aren't interested in those sorts of apps.

Since most end users use windows I think most users _are_ interested  in 
"payware", go to a large software reseller like Frey's and you'll see 
people lined up with payware.  Since I've started using a Mac I like to 
compare commercial vs free (as in free beer) software.  For example: 
Look at Unison vs Mt-NewsWatcher.  Although Mt-NW is an excellent 
program I also bought Unison since it has strengths that MT-NW doesn't.

-- 
SD
"...merely a preponderance of evidence."

In article <u1t512-skf.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
 Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe it was Peter Ammon who said...
> > Panama Red wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit that
> >>   they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting something.
> >> 
> >>   And if Linux is so worthless, why is that basicly the first thing
> >>   installed by the *geniuses* at the Apple Store "genius bar"?
> >
> > What the hell are you talking about?
> 
>   Have you ever talked to the Apple Store "geniuses"?  Guess what they
>   install on their Macs.

So...you claim the Apple Store geniuses buy Macs and then install Linux? 
I'll mention your post next time I'm there, should be good for a laugh 
or two.
 
> >The Apple Store runs Mac OS X,
> 
>    Surprise, surprise.
> 
> > not 
> > Linux; I've never seen a computer in any Apple Store running anything 
> > other than OS X. 
> 
>    Im sure Apple wouldnt have it any other way. However, I am talking
>    about what their own gurus run at home.
> 
> > Do you even know what OS X is?
> 
>    Sure, it is Apple's attempt at keeping up with Linux.

-- 
SD
"...merely a preponderance of evidence."

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:15:03 +0000, Jim Polaski wrote:

> Peter, if what you say is true, why is Pixar moving to G5's ?

Well, Steve Jobs is the CEO of Pixar...

-- 
Mathew M. <mathew@spiesNOSPAMareus.yi.org>
GPG public key ID: 0x3DDC1413

This post contains a chemical or chemicals known to the state of California
to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. This (these) 
chemical(s) may be harmful to your health.

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:40:09 +0000, Woofbert wrote:

> In article <5f3712xre.ln2@spinner.my.domain>,
>  Jerry McBride <mcbrides9@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> You have been PLONKED for shear stupidity... Advocating APPLE in a LINUX
>> forum is.... dumb...
>> 
> 
> Say, does that mean that we Mac fans can plonk all those Windroids who come over 
> here to advocate Windoze in a Macintosh forum?

Certainly.

-- 
Mathew M. <mathew@spiesNOSPAMareus.yi.org>
GPG public key ID: 0x3DDC1413

This post contains a chemical or chemicals known to the state of California
to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. This (these) 
chemical(s) may be harmful to your health.

Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote in message news:<2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> direction that it seems to be heading in.
> From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> 
> Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.

Was this SuSE professional?

> Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.

Did you call SuSE for direct support?  What did they say?
This isn't your typical Intel Hardware, in fact, it looks like you did
some careful research to see what Linux didn't support (possibly the
unsupported list?) and cited those as examples.  Perhaps you were
hoping to bait some poor inexperienced penguinista into telling you
that it was all supported (I noticed that some fell for it).

Linux supports quite a bit of standard hardware:
http://www.linux-tested.com/
http://www.suse.com/en/business/certifications/certified_hardware/index.html

Here is a list of computers known to support SuSE 9.1
http://www.suse.com/en/business/certifications/certified_hardware/sl91.html
And SuSE 9.0
http://www.suse.com/en/business/certifications/certified_hardware/sl90.html

Here's a list of IBM computers that support SuSE
http://www.suse.com/en/business/certifications/certified_hardware/ibm/index.html
HP's Linux box
http://www.suse.com/en/business/certifications/certified_hardware/hp/index.html

Dell (not many workstations here)
http://www.suse.com/en/business/certifications/certified_hardware/dell/index.html

No Gateway workstations - guess Microsoft has them by the sensitive
parts.
No Toshiba
No Sony

Still, that gives you a few vendors and several models which ARE
certified to run with SuSE Linux.  In most cases, backward
compatibility is supported.  For example, if something supports SuSE
8.0 it will normally work with SuSE 9.1

Red Hat's compatibility list is a bit harder to search (because it's
huge).
IBM
http://hardware.redhat.com/hcl/?pagename=hcl&view=allhardware&vendor=4#vendor
Desktop/Workstation
http://hardware.redhat.com/hcl/?pagename=hcl&view=allhardware&vendor=4&class=3#list
Laptops/Notebooks (T40, T40P)
http://hardware.redhat.com/hcl/?pagename=hcl&view=allhardware&vendor=4#vendor


HP/Compaq Notebooks
http://hardware.redhat.com/hcl/?pagename=hcl&view=allhardware&vendor=3&class=5#list
HP/Compaq Desktops
http://hardware.redhat.com/hcl/?pagename=hcl&view=allhardware&vendor=3&class=3#list

> However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> dammed lame.

Why don't you publish a list of all the hardware you know to be
nonsupported.
We can have the DOJ research this, to see if any of these hardware
vendors have agreements with Microsoft which prevent them from
publishing drivers.  If such agreements do exist, we can have the
contracts nullified, and then these hardware vendors can port drivers
to Linux.  Any help would be appreciated.


> What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> on the planet!

Must be talking about the advocacy groups ;-).  There are helpful
groups, but most of them would expect you to have at least checked the
hardware compatibility lists.  In addition, there are a number of
Linux drivers which are FOR SALE, in binary-only form, for nominal
fees (typically $5-20) through sites like drivers.com.  You give them
a credit card, they let you download the driver, follow the
installation instructions, and your computer works.

> So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> video driver or sound system.

When you buy an Apple, you are buying hardware which was designed and
structured to run OS/X.  There in only one source of that hardware
(Apple), and you have to buy special software, but it's a valid choice
- enjoy it.

From the lists I cited above, which took me about 15 minutes to find,
Linux is supported buy several vendors, on several machines, at a
fraction of the cost of comparable Mac systems, but if you like Mac
better, enjoy.

Both Linux and Mac support emulations and virtual machines which will
let you implement Windows applications if you need them, but both have
a good selection of their own software as well.  You might want to
check out
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/07/26/os_tools.html
This is a nice list of some of the Open Source software that is
similar to that included with most Linux distributions.  You will need
the X11 compatibility library as well.

> I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> QUALITY software right away.
> Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.

If you have an unlimited budget, and don't mind being totally
dependent on a single vendor for support, this isn't a bad choice. 
You will pay MUCH more, pay for upgrades, and probably will have to
replace hardware much sooner, but enjoy your Mac.

> But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> group because at least they are friendly.
> Sharon

The comp.os.linux.advocacy group can be a bit intense, especially when
you list a bunch of components not on any of the compatibility lists,
as if you had carefully researched what would NOT be supported.  It's
almost like you knew which vendors had contracts to NOT produce Linux
drivers.

If you choose not to use the supported hardware, then you will have
problems.  This would even be true if you did this with Microsoft. 
Try installing Windows NT on a machine designed for Windows XP.  Even
trying to install Windows XP on a machine designed for Windows NT can
be challenging.  When you buy a PC, the OEM provides all of the
driversr as part of either the installation CD, or as part of the
installation package (sometimes an invisible partition on the hard
drive).  If you went to CompUSA, purchased a $400 copy of Windows XP
or Windows 2000, and tried to use this media to configure your OEM PC,
you might find that you couldn't get it configured.

Enjoy your Mac.

Rex Ballard

Timberwoof <timberwoof@stimpberawoofm.com> wrote in message news:<timberwoof-10D052.22431409092004@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> In article <c5cfac8f.0409092009.469ba829@posting.google.com>,
>  aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> 
> > Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote in message 
> > news:<2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> > > I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or the
> > > direction that it seems to be heading in.
> > > From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> > > other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> > > 
> > > Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> > > even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> > > Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> > > 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> > > 
> > > However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> > > support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> > > dammed lame.
> > > 
> > > What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> > > makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> > > on the planet!
> > > So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> > > I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my Xfree,
> > > video driver or sound system.
> > > 
> > > I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> > > QUALITY software right away.
> > > Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> > > 
> > > But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> > > If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> > > group because at least they are friendly.
> > > Sharon
> > 
> > kid, mac won't save your life anyway.
> > 
> > It's slow and almost useless, there is no game, no free or pirated
> > software ($$$$$$$$!!!)... completely nothing.
> > 
> > However, if you believe it's job to use only the finder to browse your
> > beautiful file icons and watch the cool docks jumping on deskop all
> > the day, then yes, mac is for you.
> 
> Yeah, there's nothing. 
> 
> No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut Pro.

How much will they cost?

> No 
> Safari web browser,

You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.

> no email, no Unix development tools.

How many Mac users would waste time on that?

> No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 

No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.

> No X-Windows environment.

Is there KDE or GNOME?

> No StarOffice.

No aa font.

> No Microsoft Office. 

Crap multiple-language support.

> 
> Nothing at all.

Not entirely nothing. But why use an inferior product when you can get
better ones for free? And don't forget that there are very rare
open-source softwares and pirated softwares for mac.

> Nothing to interest you, nothing to pique your curiosity, 
> nothing for you to research. 
> 
> Nothing that you know the first thing about.

In article <c5cfac8f.0409100451.270807a6@posting.google.com>, Aquila
Deus <aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Timberwoof <timberwoof@stimpberawoofm.com> wrote in message
> news:<timberwoof-10D052.22431409092004@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> > In article <c5cfac8f.0409092009.469ba829@posting.google.com>,
> >  aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> > 
> > > Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote in message 
> > > news:<2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> > > > I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or
> > > > the
> > > > direction that it seems to be heading in.
> > > > From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> > > > other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> > > > 
> > > > Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> > > > even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> > > > Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> > > > 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> > > > 
> > > > However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> > > > support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> > > > dammed lame.
> > > > 
> > > > What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> > > > makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> > > > on the planet!
> > > > So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> > > > I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my
> > > > Xfree,
> > > > video driver or sound system.
> > > > 
> > > > I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> > > > QUALITY software right away.
> > > > Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> > > > 
> > > > But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> > > > If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> > > > group because at least they are friendly.
> > > > Sharon
> > > 
> > > kid, mac won't save your life anyway.
> > > 
> > > It's slow and almost useless, there is no game, no free or pirated
> > > software ($$$$$$$$!!!)... completely nothing.
> > > 
> > > However, if you believe it's job to use only the finder to browse your
> > > beautiful file icons and watch the cool docks jumping on deskop all
> > > the day, then yes, mac is for you.
> > 
> > Yeah, there's nothing. 
> > 
> > No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut Pro.
> 
> How much will they cost?
> 
All but the last two come with the computer....

> > No 
> > Safari web browser,
> 
> You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.
>
IE developement is discontinued on mac because Safari so good, but
other free browsers are available.

> > no email, no Unix development tools.
> 
> How many Mac users would waste time on that?
> 
> > No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
> 
> No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.
> 
> > No X-Windows environment.
> 
> Is there KDE or GNOME?
>
Yep, if you just have to have it....

> > No StarOffice.
> 
> No aa font.
> 
> > No Microsoft Office. 
> 
> Crap multiple-language support.
> 
> > 
> > Nothing at all.
> 
> Not entirely nothing. But why use an inferior product when you can get
> better ones for free? And don't forget that there are very rare
> open-source softwares and pirated softwares for mac.
> 
plenty of open-source software available and for those so inclined,
pirated software is as easy to find...

So you are basically talking from a point of lack of knowledge, not
facts.

<snipped>

> "Donn Miller" <dmmiller@cvzoom.net> wrote in message
> news:2qaeraFseaarU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> Rapskat wrote:
>>
> But MS *have* made strides in this area. The JAVA framework is still
> proprietry (SUN failed to pass the ECMA tests). The .NET Framework has
> been implemented (reasonably well from my testing) in MONO
> (http://www.go-mono.com/). This implementation is based on the open CLI
> published by MS and ratified by the ECMA.

> Good. Now point us to the site where you can download Mono *and* NET for
> Alpha, for AMD64, for Z900.
> Come back when ready to do so

Sorry, not sure what the point is here.??!! The previous poster (Mr. Miller) 
maintained that MS had never produced anything that was open sourced. I made 
the point that MS have made moves (arguably pushed I am sure) in this area.

The mono implementation (based on the open CLI -- as is the MS 
implementation) is available for all the platforms you mention.

MS stopped building OSs for anything other than 8086 based instruction sets 
a long time ago (I think the last one was NT on DEC Alpha). Hence, I 
wouldn't expect MS to produce the CLR for any hardware platform that they 
don't produce an OS for ... ??!!

A 

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 23:14:50 -0600, Jim Estes wrote:

> linux doesn't have anything close to Photoshop, CinePaint is a nightmare 
> in usefulness.


Well sure, on OSX it is. It's a real PITA to work with on a Mac.
Specifically mentioned to be so. The Linux version is fine though.

If you meant in general, as a whole, that it's a completely useless
program....well there are several that disagree with that sentiment.

Rythm & Hues

Sony Pictures Imageworks

Hammerhead 

Flash Film Works

Computer Cafe

Amalgamated Pixels

In article <c5cfac8f.0409100451.270807a6@posting.google.com>,
 aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:

> You forgot M$-IE. 

msie is a discontinued garbage browser

-- 
-------------------------------------------
Swedish Webcams <http://www.webcams.zap.to>
-------------------------------------------

begin  Andy Haynes wrote:

> <snipped>
> 
>> "Donn Miller" <dmmiller@cvzoom.net> wrote in message
>> news:2qaeraFseaarU1@uni-berlin.de...
>>> Rapskat wrote:
>>>
>> But MS *have* made strides in this area. The JAVA framework is still
>> proprietry (SUN failed to pass the ECMA tests). The .NET Framework has
>> been implemented (reasonably well from my testing) in MONO
>> (http://www.go-mono.com/). This implementation is based on the open CLI
>> published by MS and ratified by the ECMA.
> 
>> Good. Now point us to the site where you can download Mono *and* NET for
>> Alpha, for AMD64, for Z900.
>> Come back when ready to do so
> 
> Sorry, not sure what the point is here.??!! The previous poster (Mr.
> Miller) maintained that MS had never produced anything that was open
> sourced. I made the point that MS have made moves (arguably pushed I am
> sure) in this area.
> 
> The mono implementation (based on the open CLI -- as is the MS
> implementation) is available for all the platforms you mention.
> 

So is Java. And quite some more. NET is not. It is typical MS locking shite

> MS stopped building OSs for anything other than 8086 based instruction
> sets a long time ago (I think the last one was NT on DEC Alpha). Hence, I
> wouldn't expect MS to produce the CLR for any hardware platform that they
> don't produce an OS for ... ??!!
> 

I expect from them only garbage
-- 
Microsoft's Guide To System Design:
        Let it get in YOUR way. The problem for your problem.

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:52:15 +0000, George Graves wrote:

>> Photoshop 7 runs on Linux.
> 
> Please explain. BTW, no need to resort to personal rancor.


Photoshop 7 runs on Linux. I wouldn't think you'd need much more but I
suppose I can explain further.



Disney had a need for it, wanted it for Linux workstations, so they had
it ported using WINE.

Oh, and don't go "oh, emulation" because WINE isn't an emulator, it's a
library and a script. It's a porting tool. In essense, using the WINE
toolset (they had to do a lot of coding to achieve it too) Disney had the
Windows version of Photoshop 7 ported over to Linux. No Photoshop 7 source
code was required, no Adobe licenses were violated, no problems.

aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:

> > No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut Pro.
> 
> How much will they cost?

all of the first 5 are $49. then it's roughly $400 and $800, or free if 
you download them from limewire.

> > No 
> > Safari web browser,
> 
> You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.

Nobody uses IE, there are all the Mozzila apps like Camino, FireFox. 
then opera, icab, netscape, etc.

> > no email, no Unix development tools.
> 
> How many Mac users would waste time on that?

lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
point.

> > No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
> 
> No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.

yeah there is.

> > No X-Windows environment.

yeah there is, comes with 10.3 or a simple download.

> Is there KDE or GNOME?

why would anyone need those backwards window managers with osx???
> 
> > No StarOffice.

staroffice is there
> 
> No aa font.

not sure what aa font is, but if it's a "font" apple has 10+ of them.
> 
> > No Microsoft Office. 
> 
> Crap multiple-language support.

actually the very best multi language support of ANY pc. it roots to 
apple original heritage of having the first world wide pc.

> > Nothing at all.
> 
> Not entirely nothing. But why use an inferior product when you can get
> better ones for free? And don't forget that there are very rare
> open-source softwares and pirated softwares for mac.

you have zero clue, get a mac and you'll quickly laugh at everything you 
just wrote.

<snipped>

> It is typical MS locking shite

How can it be a lock-in if the standards are open ??

>> MS stopped building OSs for anything other than 8086 based instruction
>> sets a long time ago (I think the last one was NT on DEC Alpha). Hence, I
>> wouldn't expect MS to produce the CLR for any hardware platform that they
>> don't produce an OS for ... ??!!

>I expect from them only garbage

I think my point has been made.

A 

begin  Andy Haynes wrote:

> <snipped>
> 
>> It is typical MS locking shite
> 
> How can it be a lock-in if the standards are open ??
> 

They aren't

>>> MS stopped building OSs for anything other than 8086 based instruction
>>> sets a long time ago (I think the last one was NT on DEC Alpha). Hence,
>>> I wouldn't expect MS to produce the CLR for any hardware platform that
>>> they don't produce an OS for ... ??!!
> 
>>I expect from them only garbage
> 
> I think my point has been made.
> 

You have no point

-- 
Microsoft's Guide To System Design:
        It could be worse, but it'll take time.

In article <c5cfac8f.0409100451.270807a6@posting.google.com>,
 aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:

> > No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut Pro.
> 
> How much will they cost?

DSP and Final Cut Pro are professional applications for $400 and $800. The rest 
are included in the price of the computer. (iMovie and iDVD are very good 
consumer-level apps that do the job of Final Cut and DSP. If you actually *need* 
the pro apps, you can afford to pay for them.)

> > No 
> > Safari web browser,
> 
> You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.

Safari is faster than IE. Apple participates in its open-source development. 

> > no email, no Unix development tools.
> 
> How many Mac users would waste time on that?

Quite a few, actually. The Unix development tools are what Mac developers now 
use to make apps for the Mac. 

> > No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
> 
> No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.

WTF cares about IIS/ASP/.NET?  They suck. I set up an old 400MHz PII as a Linux 
test server and compared it with a 966MHz PIII running W2k3 with IIS and ASP. 
LAMP outperformed IIS. LAMP is available on OS X Server. 

No one pretended that OS X is a great SAP or DB2 server. We're talking desktop 
machines here. Do you need to connect to such a server from OS X? Fine. You can 
do that. 

> > No X-Windows environment.
> 
> Is there KDE or GNOME?

http://dot.kde.org/1073009304/
http://openosx.com/office/

> > No StarOffice.
> 
> No aa font.

Oh, dear. I guess until someone copies it over for you, you'll have to wait. 

> > No Microsoft Office. 
> 
> Crap multiple-language support.

Best multiple language support there is. Apple pretty much invented that. 

> > Nothing at all.
> 
> Not entirely nothing. But why use an inferior product when you can get
> better ones for free? And don't forget that there are very rare
> open-source softwares and pirated softwares for mac.

I was being sarcastic. 

> > Nothing to interest you, nothing to pique your curiosity, 
> > nothing for you to research. 
> > 
> > Nothing that you know the first thing about.

Like I said. If you knew what you were talking about...

-- 
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Why does Windows have a left mouse button? 

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:12:46 -0400, Alex Christmann wrote:

>>Right there you just showed your complete and total ignorance about modern
>>LGX.
> 
> What do guitars have to do with Linux?
> 
> http://www.godinguitars.com/godinlgxp.htm

LGX = "L"inux kernel + "G"NU toolset + "X"Free86 Windows System

The three components that comprise the base for the Linux Desktop.

See here for more info...

http://www.kernel.org
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.xfree86.org

HTH

Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:

> Photoshop 7 runs on Linux. I wouldn't think you'd need much more but I
> suppose I can explain further.
> 

but not natively, plus you'd be using the windows version which is 
pretty poor compared to the mac version.

> Disney had a need for it, wanted it for Linux workstations, so they had
> it ported using WINE.

maybe in 1 or 2 situations, but they don't use linux widely for any of 
their work.
 
> Oh, and don't go "oh, emulation" because WINE isn't an emulator, it's a
> library and a script. It's a porting tool. In essense, using the WINE
> toolset (they had to do a lot of coding to achieve it too) Disney had the
> Windows version of Photoshop 7 ported over to Linux. No Photoshop 7 source
> code was required, no Adobe licenses were violated, no problems.

what about the CS version? so disney is always going to be 2 years 
behind? I doubt it.

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:16:23 -0600, Jim Estes wrote:

> Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
> 
>> Photoshop 7 runs on Linux. I wouldn't think you'd need much more but I
>> suppose I can explain further.
>> 
> 
> but not natively, plus you'd be using the windows version which is 
> pretty poor compared to the mac version.

It is natively, that's what WINE does. WINE is a library set, just like
any other library that any other program might call. It's also a script
that ties the program to that library, mapping calls to Windows libs, to
the WINE libs instead. It also controls "look and feel." But when it comes
down to it, any program run using WINE is run natively, the same as any
other program calling any other library. The fact that the "Linux version"
of the program now has an extra script as part of it matters little.

Proof that this doesn't matter one bit, is that you can take specific
WINElibs out of WINE, build these libs directly into a software package,
and build a standalone port, that requires no WINE script to run. The Sims
was ported that way. A standalone, native executable.

Photoshop 7 runs on Linux, provided you have the right library installed.
How is that *any* different than running any other program on Linux?

> 
>> Disney had a need for it, wanted it for Linux workstations, so they had
>> it ported using WINE.
> 
> maybe in 1 or 2 situations, but they don't use linux widely for any of
> their work.

They ported it for the specific reason that they were moving to large
numbers of Linux workstations in their animation department, and didn't
want to pay Windows licenses to run it in some slow emulator, and didn't
want to dual-boot them. Much of their *other* work and many of their
*other* tools were being moved to Linux, and they wanted a Linux solution
to their Photoshop needs. It's not a case of 1 or 2 situations, it's a
case of whole studios with large numbers of workstations. 

>  
>> Oh, and don't go "oh, emulation" because WINE isn't an emulator, it's a
>> library and a script. It's a porting tool. In essense, using the WINE
>> toolset (they had to do a lot of coding to achieve it too) Disney had
>> the Windows version of Photoshop 7 ported over to Linux. No Photoshop 7
>> source code was required, no Adobe licenses were violated, no problems.
> 
> what about the CS version? so disney is always going to be 2 years
> behind? I doubt it.


Well Photoshop 7 was ported over a year ago, I'm sure that if they feel a
need for CS they'll do it, if such a project hasn't already been
undertaken. For all I know it's already done under a specialised varient.
Also, from what I hear, CS isn't really a significant upgrade from 7
anyway. 

Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@spamac.com> wrote in message news:<100920040805251916%lloydparsons@spamac.com>...
> In article <c5cfac8f.0409100451.270807a6@posting.google.com>, Aquila
> Deus <aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Timberwoof <timberwoof@stimpberawoofm.com> wrote in message
> > news:<timberwoof-10D052.22431409092004@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> > > In article <c5cfac8f.0409092009.469ba829@posting.google.com>,
> > >  aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Sharon Kristiansen <Not-given@no1052.org> wrote in message 
> > > > news:<2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> > > > > I suppose I am one of those people that simply do not like Windows or
> > > > > the
> > > > > direction that it seems to be heading in.
> > > > > From what I read in eWeek and Infoworld, Longhorn without the winfs and
> > > > > other features is going to be nothing but another bloated service pack.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Since I already own Intel hardware I was looking at Linux and in fact I
> > > > > even purchased SuSe 9.1 and tried to install it.
> > > > > Unfortunately I had troubles with hardware support (RAID controller VIA
> > > > > 6410, SoundMax sound chip, SATA) so I gave up.
> > > > > 
> > > > > However I am not giving up on Linux because of the somewhat inferior
> > > > > support of hardware, I am giving up because the support structure is so
> > > > > dammed lame.
> > > > > 
> > > > > What I read in these various Linux groups that passes for information
> > > > > makes my skin want to crawl. These people have to be the nastiest people
> > > > > on the planet!
> > > > > So, with the new release of Apple hardware, that is the way I am going.
> > > > > I simply do not feel like compiling kernels every time I change my
> > > > > Xfree,
> > > > > video driver or sound system.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I want something that I can remove from the box and get to use HIGH
> > > > > QUALITY software right away.
> > > > > Linux doesn't offer this and it's quite obvious reasing these groups.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But again, it's the Linux users that are the biggest turn off.
> > > > > If this is my support team, forget it. I might as well ask in a windows
> > > > > group because at least they are friendly.
> > > > > Sharon
> > > > 
> > > > kid, mac won't save your life anyway.
> > > > 
> > > > It's slow and almost useless, there is no game, no free or pirated
> > > > software ($$$$$$$$!!!)... completely nothing.
> > > > 
> > > > However, if you believe it's job to use only the finder to browse your
> > > > beautiful file icons and watch the cool docks jumping on deskop all
> > > > the day, then yes, mac is for you.
> > > 
> > > Yeah, there's nothing. 
> > > 
> > > No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut Pro.
> > 
> > How much will they cost?
> > 
> All but the last two come with the computer....
> 
> > > No 
> > > Safari web browser,
> > 
> > You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.
> >
> IE developement is discontinued on mac because Safari so good, but
> other free browsers are available.
> 
> > > no email, no Unix development tools.
> > 
> > How many Mac users would waste time on that?
> > 
> > > No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
> > 
> > No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.
> > 
> > > No X-Windows environment.
> > 
> > Is there KDE or GNOME?
> >
> Yep, if you just have to have it....
> 
> > > No StarOffice.
> > 
> > No aa font.
> > 
> > > No Microsoft Office. 
> > 
> > Crap multiple-language support.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Nothing at all.
> > 
> > Not entirely nothing. But why use an inferior product when you can get
> > better ones for free? And don't forget that there are very rare
> > open-source softwares and pirated softwares for mac.
> > 
> plenty of open-source software available

Not as many as linux's

> and for those so inclined,
> pirated software is as easy to find...

please tell where to download. Besides, who's making cracks/keygens
for mac softwares?

> 
> So you are basically talking from a point of lack of knowledge, not
> facts.

Jim Estes <jbestes@attbi.net> wrote in message news:<jbestes-5CEA74.10025410092004@news.uswest.net>...
> aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> 
> > > No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut Pro.
> > 
> > How much will they cost?
> 
> all of the first 5 are $49. then it's roughly $400 and $800, or free if 
> you download them from limewire.

limewire??

> 
> > > No 
> > > Safari web browser,
> > 
> > You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.
> 
> Nobody uses IE, there are all the Mozzila apps like Camino, FireFox. 
> then opera, icab, netscape, etc.

How can you browse websites which just require IE?

> 
> > > no email, no Unix development tools.
> > 
> > How many Mac users would waste time on that?
> 
> lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
> point.

From http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=199

Operating System
      BeOS (428 projects)
      MacOS (3944 projects)
      Microsoft (21232 projects)
      OS/2 (145 projects)
      OS Independent (21045 projects)
      Other OS (1097 projects)
      PDA Systems (778 projects)
      POSIX (32749 projects)

3944:32749 :))

> 
> > > No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
> > 
> > No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.
> 
> yeah there is.

there is IIS and .NET port for Mac? And SAP DB? IBM DB2? Java 1.5
beta?

> 
> > > No X-Windows environment.
> 
> yeah there is, comes with 10.3 or a simple download.

I didn't write this. And it's "X-Window" not "X-Windows".

> 
> > Is there KDE or GNOME?
> 
> why would anyone need those backwards window managers with osx???

Does the modern osx window manager supports emacs keybinding?

> > 
> > > No StarOffice.
> 
> staroffice is there

Did I even write this?? :-)

> > 
> > No aa font.
> 
> not sure what aa font is, but if it's a "font" apple has 10+ of them.

anti-aliasing font rendering. Check out the screenshot of Mac
OpenOffice. It's damned ugly.

> > 
> > > No Microsoft Office. 
> > 
> > Crap multiple-language support.
> 
> actually the very best multi language support of ANY pc. it roots to 
> apple original heritage of having the first world wide pc.

My friend told me his M$-Office for mac can't work with chinese.

> 
> > > Nothing at all.
> > 
> > Not entirely nothing. But why use an inferior product when you can get
> > better ones for free? And don't forget that there are very rare
> > open-source softwares and pirated softwares for mac.
> 
> you have zero clue, get a mac and you'll quickly laugh at everything you 
> just wrote.

zero is better than null :)

In article <c5cfac8f.0409101633.108892a2@posting.google.com>,
 aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:

> Jim Estes <jbestes@attbi.net> wrote in message 
> news:<jbestes-5CEA74.10025410092004@news.uswest.net>...
> > aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> > 
> > > > No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut 
> > > > Pro.
> > > 
> > > How much will they cost?
> > 
> > all of the first 5 are $49. then it's roughly $400 and $800, or free if 
> > you download them from limewire.
> 
> limewire??
> 
> > 
> > > > No 
> > > > Safari web browser,
> > > 
> > > You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.
> > 
> > Nobody uses IE, there are all the Mozzila apps like Camino, FireFox. 
> > then opera, icab, netscape, etc.
> 
> How can you browse websites which just require IE?

It comes with OSX. 
> 
> > 
> > > > no email, no Unix development tools.
> > > 
> > > How many Mac users would waste time on that?
> > 
> > lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
> > point.
> 
> From http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=199
> 
> Operating System
>       BeOS (428 projects)
>       MacOS (3944 projects)
>       Microsoft (21232 projects)
>       OS/2 (145 projects)
>       OS Independent (21045 projects)
>       Other OS (1097 projects)
>       PDA Systems (778 projects)
>       POSIX (32749 projects)
> 
> 3944:32749 :))
> 
> > 
> > > > No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
> > > 
> > > No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.
> > 
> > yeah there is.
> 
> there is IIS and .NET port for Mac? And SAP DB? IBM DB2? Java 1.5
> beta?
> 
> > 
> > > > No X-Windows environment.
> > 
> > yeah there is, comes with 10.3 or a simple download.
> 
> I didn't write this. And it's "X-Window" not "X-Windows".
> 
> > 
> > > Is there KDE or GNOME?
> > 
> > why would anyone need those backwards window managers with osx???
> 
> Does the modern osx window manager supports emacs keybinding?
> 
> > > 
> > > > No StarOffice.
> > 
> > staroffice is there
> 
> Did I even write this?? :-)
> 
> > > 
> > > No aa font.
> > 
> > not sure what aa font is, but if it's a "font" apple has 10+ of them.
> 
> anti-aliasing font rendering. Check out the screenshot of Mac
> OpenOffice. It's damned ugly.

Yes OSX has font anti-ailasing. The reason why it doesn't show up in 
Open Office is because that application runs under X-11, not Aqua. If 
the X-11 user had bothered to install KDE or Gnome (yes, you can) then 
perhaps aa would have worked in OO, I don't know. But I will tell you 
this from experience, OO uses only the fonts it installs. It cannot use 
OSX system fonts.


> 
> > > 
> > > > No Microsoft Office. 
> > > 
> > > Crap multiple-language support.
> > 
> > actually the very best multi language support of ANY pc. it roots to 
> > apple original heritage of having the first world wide pc.
> 
> My friend told me his M$-Office for mac can't work with chinese.

I do not know if that's true or not, but Chinese fonts are included with 
OSX. If Office cannot use them, blame Microsoft for not following the 
Unicode-4 standard.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

Peter K�hlmann <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote:

> begin  Mel Matsuoka wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:01:52 GMT, Panama Red
> > <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>
> >>  What can you do with Photoshop that you cannot do with Gimp/Cinepaint?
> > 
> > CMYK.
> > 
> > 'Nuff said.
> 
> Your info is quite out of date. It was correct for gimp1.x

CMYK was there in 1.x - I seem to remember this red herring being
bandied about by the Jobinista in the past,

Image -> Mode -> Decompose -> CMYK (amongst others), Gimp v1.2.3 SuSE
Linux 8.2.

> Install gimp2 and then install the gimp-cmyk package
> 
> Now again: What can you do with Photoshop that you cannot do with
> Gimp/Cinepaint?

There are some more exoteric PS functions that Gimp may not have, but
for 99% of users Gimp will be more than adequate, and certainly better
than Adobe's PSE app. Paint Shop Pro is a better pay-for choice, but
since Gimp is available for Windows I don't see the point.

-- 

Peter

Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in news:woofbert.spam-
A47071.10422810092004@typhoon.sonic.net:

> Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
> Why does Windows have a left mouse button? 

Woof, you're still about. I had missed your erudite presense of late.

-- 
D.

George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<gmgravesnos-29C8A0.18071010092004@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>...
> In article <c5cfac8f.0409101633.108892a2@posting.google.com>,
>  aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> 
> > Jim Estes <jbestes@attbi.net> wrote in message 
> > news:<jbestes-5CEA74.10025410092004@news.uswest.net>...
> > > aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut 
> > > > > Pro.
> > > > 
> > > > How much will they cost?
> > > 
> > > all of the first 5 are $49. then it's roughly $400 and $800, or free if 
> > > you download them from limewire.
> > 
> > limewire??
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > No 
> > > > > Safari web browser,
> > > > 
> > > > You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.
> > > 
> > > Nobody uses IE, there are all the Mozzila apps like Camino, FireFox. 
> > > then opera, icab, netscape, etc.
> > 
> > How can you browse websites which just require IE?
> 
> It comes with OSX. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > no email, no Unix development tools.
> > > > 
> > > > How many Mac users would waste time on that?
> > > 
> > > lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
> > > point.
> > 
> > From http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=199
> > 
> > Operating System
> >       BeOS (428 projects)
> >       MacOS (3944 projects)
> >       Microsoft (21232 projects)
> >       OS/2 (145 projects)
> >       OS Independent (21045 projects)
> >       Other OS (1097 projects)
> >       PDA Systems (778 projects)
> >       POSIX (32749 projects)
> > 
> > 3944:32749 :))
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
> > > > 
> > > > No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.
> > > 
> > > yeah there is.
> > 
> > there is IIS and .NET port for Mac? And SAP DB? IBM DB2? Java 1.5
> > beta?
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > No X-Windows environment.
> > > 
> > > yeah there is, comes with 10.3 or a simple download.
> > 
> > I didn't write this. And it's "X-Window" not "X-Windows".
> > 
> > > 
> > > > Is there KDE or GNOME?
> > > 
> > > why would anyone need those backwards window managers with osx???
> > 
> > Does the modern osx window manager supports emacs keybinding?
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > > No StarOffice.
> > > 
> > > staroffice is there
> > 
> > Did I even write this?? :-)
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > No aa font.
> > > 
> > > not sure what aa font is, but if it's a "font" apple has 10+ of them.
> > 
> > anti-aliasing font rendering. Check out the screenshot of Mac
> > OpenOffice. It's damned ugly.
> 
> Yes OSX has font anti-ailasing. The reason why it doesn't show up in 
> Open Office is because that application runs under X-11, not Aqua. If 
> the X-11 user had bothered to install KDE or Gnome (yes, you can) then 
> perhaps aa would have worked in OO, I don't know. But I will tell you 
> this from experience, OO uses only the fonts it installs. It cannot use 
> OSX system fonts.
> 
> 
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > > No Microsoft Office. 
> > > > 
> > > > Crap multiple-language support.
> > > 
> > > actually the very best multi language support of ANY pc. it roots to 
> > > apple original heritage of having the first world wide pc.
> > 
> > My friend told me his M$-Office for mac can't work with chinese.
> 
> I do not know if that's true or not, but Chinese fonts are included with 
> OSX. If Office cannot use them, blame Microsoft for not following the 
> Unicode-4 standard.

Yes, but an end-user would not care about who causes the problem. All
he knows is that M$-Office on windows works perfectly well, but
M$-Office on mac does not.

Hamilcar Barca wrote:
> In article <Z7udndL5P_Mb493cRVn-ug@bresnan.com> (Thu, 09 Sep 2004
> 10:04:23 -0600), GreyCloud wrote:
>
>> S.Heenan wrote:
>>> Pay particular attention to posts from Peter Kohlmann, Sinister
>>> Midget, Grey Cloud, 7 aka e7, Hamilcar Barca [...]
>>>
>> And wintrolling morons like you get flamed.
>
> It called me a name!
>
>> Is it any wonder, due to your stupidity, you get flamed??
>
> ... or killfiled.


ZzZZzzZzZzzZZZzzZZZZZZzzZZ 

In article <c5cfac8f.0409110543.71afb05a@posting.google.com>,
 aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:

> George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote in message 
> news:<gmgravesnos-29C8A0.18071010092004@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>...
> > In article <c5cfac8f.0409101633.108892a2@posting.google.com>,
> >  aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> > 
> > > Jim Estes <jbestes@attbi.net> wrote in message 
> > > news:<jbestes-5CEA74.10025410092004@news.uswest.net>...
> > > > aquila_deus@yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus) wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > No iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, iMovie, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Final 
> > > > > > Cut 
> > > > > > Pro.
> > > > > 
> > > > > How much will they cost?
> > > > 
> > > > all of the first 5 are $49. then it's roughly $400 and $800, or free if 
> > > > you download them from limewire.
> > > 
> > > limewire??
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > No 
> > > > > > Safari web browser,
> > > > > 
> > > > > You forgot M$-IE. Safari is just a khtml-based crap browser.
> > > > 
> > > > Nobody uses IE, there are all the Mozzila apps like Camino, FireFox. 
> > > > then opera, icab, netscape, etc.
> > > 
> > > How can you browse websites which just require IE?
> > 
> > It comes with OSX. 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > no email, no Unix development tools.
> > > > > 
> > > > > How many Mac users would waste time on that?
> > > > 
> > > > lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at 
> > > > this 
> > > > point.
> > > 
> > > From http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=199
> > > 
> > > Operating System
> > >       BeOS (428 projects)
> > >       MacOS (3944 projects)
> > >       Microsoft (21232 projects)
> > >       OS/2 (145 projects)
> > >       OS Independent (21045 projects)
> > >       Other OS (1097 projects)
> > >       PDA Systems (778 projects)
> > >       POSIX (32749 projects)
> > > 
> > > 3944:32749 :))
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > No Apache, PHP, MySQL. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > No IIS/ASP, no .NET, no SAP DB, no DB2, crap java support.
> > > > 
> > > > yeah there is.
> > > 
> > > there is IIS and .NET port for Mac? And SAP DB? IBM DB2? Java 1.5
> > > beta?
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > No X-Windows environment.
> > > > 
> > > > yeah there is, comes with 10.3 or a simple download.
> > > 
> > > I didn't write this. And it's "X-Window" not "X-Windows".
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > Is there KDE or GNOME?
> > > > 
> > > > why would anyone need those backwards window managers with osx???
> > > 
> > > Does the modern osx window manager supports emacs keybinding?
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > No StarOffice.
> > > > 
> > > > staroffice is there
> > > 
> > > Did I even write this?? :-)
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > No aa font.
> > > > 
> > > > not sure what aa font is, but if it's a "font" apple has 10+ of them.
> > > 
> > > anti-aliasing font rendering. Check out the screenshot of Mac
> > > OpenOffice. It's damned ugly.
> > 
> > Yes OSX has font anti-ailasing. The reason why it doesn't show up in 
> > Open Office is because that application runs under X-11, not Aqua. If 
> > the X-11 user had bothered to install KDE or Gnome (yes, you can) then 
> > perhaps aa would have worked in OO, I don't know. But I will tell you 
> > this from experience, OO uses only the fonts it installs. It cannot use 
> > OSX system fonts.
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > No Microsoft Office. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Crap multiple-language support.
> > > > 
> > > > actually the very best multi language support of ANY pc. it roots to 
> > > > apple original heritage of having the first world wide pc.
> > > 
> > > My friend told me his M$-Office for mac can't work with chinese.
> > 
> > I do not know if that's true or not, but Chinese fonts are included with 
> > OSX. If Office cannot use them, blame Microsoft for not following the 
> > Unicode-4 standard.
> 
> Yes, but an end-user would not care about who causes the problem. All
> he knows is that M$-Office on windows works perfectly well, but
> M$-Office on mac does not.

If one installs the Chinese language support when they install OSX, it 
will work perfectly, actually. OSX installs all foreign language support 
by default, but most people delete those languages they don't need -no 
sense wasting  valuable disk space for stuff one never needs. Tell your 
friend to get the OSX install discs and go to custom install and check 
Chinese language support and nothing else, and it will install that 
support only.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

George Graves wrote:

> In article <pan.2004.09.09.12.44.26.157931@nomail.com>,
>  Rick <none@nomail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:
>> 
>> > In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> >> > In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
>> >> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS
>> >> >> > works VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software
>> >> >> > is first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more...
>> >> >> > they're
>> >> >> > worth it!
>> >> >> 
>> >> >>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being
>> >> >>   completely
>> >> >>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash
>> >> >>   register after raping your cornhole?
>> >> >
>> >> > If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't
>> >> > been "ripped off" either completely or even partially.
>> >> 
>> >>   Bullshit...even with that 10% discount that you think you got with
>> >>   your friends school ID.
>> > 
>> > I've never gotten a 10% discount with "a friend's school ID." I pay
>> > what Apple asks, and I have no problem with it. That you do is your
>> > problem, not anyone else's.
>> > 
>> >> > We've bought a great
>> >> > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software.
>> >> 
>> >>   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they
>> >>   cut the price by about 50%.
>> > 
>> > I don't require that they "cut the price" at all.
>> 
>> Many people would buy Macs if they had a lower sticker price.
> 
> I repeat, *I* don't require a price cut to buy a Mac. I'll buy one every
> time. When it's time to buy a new computer, I don't even THINK about a
> Windows box. The fact that Windows computers are available for less than
> US$500 and have a faster "clock speed" means NOTHING to me. They won't
> run OSX, and that's the bottom line. I pay what Apple asks because I
> believe that Macs are worth what they cost. Like the difference between
> a new Pontiac GTO (ne Australian Holden) and a new Bently Continental
> GT. The Pontiac is fine, handles well, has good performance, but it
> ain't no Bently in the same way that a cheap Windows box ain't no Mac.

Nice rant, but you are not the world. You don't even represent a very large
part of the world.

> 
>> >> 
>> >> > All Linux has
>> >> > going for it is it's free
>> >> 
>> >>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that
>> >>   they were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free
>> >>   Linux download and decided to join the herd, they are still far
>> >>   behind Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
>> > 
>> > That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is
>> > OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very
>> > Windows derivative GUI shells on it.
>> 
>> Hmmm... OS X... A command line OS with a GUI shell on it...
> 
> Shows how uninformed you are on this subject. Aqua is not a "shell"

Graphics on top of Darwin.

> 
>> > If I wanted something that worked
>> > and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the
>> > real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it
>> > does any modern Windows version.
>> 
>> You obviously haven't used LInux lately. ANd my desktop look more like a
>> NeXt desktop than windows.
> 
> But does it work like a NeXT desktop?

It should if you have GNUStep installed.

>> 
>> > 
>> >> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you
>> >> > pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a
>> >> > fare-thee-well.
>> >> 
>> >>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit
>> >>   that they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting
>> >>   something.
>> > 
>> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a
>> > useful OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
>> > You have to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing,
>> > Photoshop CS.
>> 
>> If you are using GIMP for Web based graphics, there isn't anything
>> better. If you must use Photoshop, you can run it (7) under WINE. That's
>> good enough for Disney.
>> 
>> > 
>> (snip)
>> > 
>> > That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the
>> > look and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE.
>> 
>> Maybe thats because of the taskbar metaphor.
>> 
>> > The
>> > file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same,
>> > the operating conventions look the same. The main difference being that
>> > the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.
>> 
>> ... and so what if the OS can look like window$. That can make new users
>> feel comfortable.
> 
> Because one of the reasons I stick with Mac is because I HATE the look
> and feel of Windows. Why I would I want to run something that:

YOU ARE NOT THE WORLD.

> 
> 1) Looks and feels like the OS I despise.

It doesn't have to.

> 
> 2) Is more difficult to install and maintain than the OS that I despise.

I just installed Suse. I hit enter a lot.

> 
> 3) Has less productivity software available than the OS that I despise.

Does it? Are you sure?

> 
> All the disadvantages of Windows and none of the advantages except its
> virtually free. I'm neither that cheap nor that poor that I consider
> that an advantage. I also would rather use a computer than fiddle with
> it.
> 
As you mumbled ...
.... shows how uninformed you are.
-- 
Rick

In article <2qh7m9Fvvu8sU1@uni-berlin.de>, Rick <none@none.com> wrote:

> George Graves wrote:
> 
> > In article <pan.2004.09.09.12.44.26.157931@nomail.com>,
> >  Rick <none@nomail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:57:32 +0000, George Graves wrote:
> >> 
> >> > In article <t74512-08d.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > 
> >> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> >> > In article <im0512-qlc.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> >> >> >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I believe it was George Graves who said...
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I think you are making a sound decision. Macs are easy, the OS
> >> >> >> > works VERY well, in fact, virtually flawlessly, and the software
> >> >> >> > is first-class. Once you get one you'll see why Macs cost more...
> >> >> >> > they're
> >> >> >> > worth it!
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >>   Arent those the same excuses you all use to justify being
> >> >> >>   completely
> >> >> >>   ripped off?  Did they at least give you a kiss at the cash
> >> >> >>   register after raping your cornhole?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that we haven't
> >> >> > been "ripped off" either completely or even partially.
> >> >> 
> >> >>   Bullshit...even with that 10% discount that you think you got with
> >> >>   your friends school ID.
> >> > 
> >> > I've never gotten a 10% discount with "a friend's school ID." I pay
> >> > what Apple asks, and I have no problem with it. That you do is your
> >> > problem, not anyone else's.
> >> > 
> >> >> > We've bought a great
> >> >> > computer with a terrific OS and first-class software.
> >> >> 
> >> >>   Yes, but for a shitload of money. I admit, I'd love a Mac if they
> >> >>   cut the price by about 50%.
> >> > 
> >> > I don't require that they "cut the price" at all.
> >> 
> >> Many people would buy Macs if they had a lower sticker price.
> > 
> > I repeat, *I* don't require a price cut to buy a Mac. I'll buy one every
> > time. When it's time to buy a new computer, I don't even THINK about a
> > Windows box. The fact that Windows computers are available for less than
> > US$500 and have a faster "clock speed" means NOTHING to me. They won't
> > run OSX, and that's the bottom line. I pay what Apple asks because I
> > believe that Macs are worth what they cost. Like the difference between
> > a new Pontiac GTO (ne Australian Holden) and a new Bently Continental
> > GT. The Pontiac is fine, handles well, has good performance, but it
> > ain't no Bently in the same way that a cheap Windows box ain't no Mac.
> 
> Nice rant, but you are not the world. You don't even represent a very large
> part of the world.
> 
> > 
> >> >> 
> >> >> > All Linux has
> >> >> > going for it is it's free
> >> >> 
> >> >>   Wrong. Even though modern Macs *finally* submit to the fact that
> >> >>   they were inferior to the power of what comes standard with a free
> >> >>   Linux download and decided to join the herd, they are still far
> >> >>   behind Linux in all but a couple (of the same old) areas.
> >> > 
> >> > That's funny. Linux is nowhere near as sophisticated or polished as is
> >> > OSX. It's just a CLI OS with a couple of fairly primitive and very
> >> > Windows derivative GUI shells on it.
> >> 
> >> Hmmm... OS X... A command line OS with a GUI shell on it...
> > 
> > Shows how uninformed you are on this subject. Aqua is not a "shell"
> 
> Graphics on top of Darwin.
> 
> > 
> >> > If I wanted something that worked
> >> > and looked as much like Windows as either Gnome or KDE, I'd opt for the
> >> > real thing, not a poor knockoff that works more like Win3.1 than it
> >> > does any modern Windows version.
> >> 
> >> You obviously haven't used LInux lately. ANd my desktop look more like a
> >> NeXt desktop than windows.
> > 
> > But does it work like a NeXT desktop?
> 
> It should if you have GNUStep installed.
> 
> >> 
> >> > 
> >> >> > and you know the old saying? "You get what you
> >> >> > pay for, often less, but never more." Seems to sum-up Linux to a
> >> >> > fare-thee-well.
> >> >> 
> >> >>   That must be a comforting thought for someone who is such a twit
> >> >>   that they like to spend more just to feel like they are getting
> >> >>   something.
> >> > 
> >> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a
> >> > useful OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
> >> > You have to use GIMP, for instance, while I get to use the real thing,
> >> > Photoshop CS.
> >> 
> >> If you are using GIMP for Web based graphics, there isn't anything
> >> better. If you must use Photoshop, you can run it (7) under WINE. That's
> >> good enough for Disney.
> >> 
> >> > 
> >> (snip)
> >> > 
> >> > That's right. OTOH, I see little substantive difference between the
> >> > look and feel of Windows and the look and feel and either GNOME or KDE.
> >> 
> >> Maybe thats because of the taskbar metaphor.
> >> 
> >> > The
> >> > file browsers look the same, the save and open dialogues look the same,
> >> > the operating conventions look the same. The main difference being that
> >> > the Linux GUIs just don't go as deep as Windows.
> >> 
> >> ... and so what if the OS can look like window$. That can make new users
> >> feel comfortable.
> > 
> > Because one of the reasons I stick with Mac is because I HATE the look
> > and feel of Windows. Why I would I want to run something that:
> 
> YOU ARE NOT THE WORLD.
> 
> > 
> > 1) Looks and feels like the OS I despise.
> 
> It doesn't have to.
> 
> > 
> > 2) Is more difficult to install and maintain than the OS that I despise.
> 
> I just installed Suse. I hit enter a lot.
> 
> > 
> > 3) Has less productivity software available than the OS that I despise.
> 
> Does it? Are you sure?

I am sure. NO publishing programs of any kind. No PostScript Vector 
graphics programs like Illustrator or freehand.

Until there is more commercial software available, I can't even look at 
Linux very seriously. But when there is, I might.

> > All the disadvantages of Windows and none of the advantages except its
> > virtually free. I'm neither that cheap nor that poor that I consider
> > that an advantage. I also would rather use a computer than fiddle with
> > it.
> > 
> As you mumbled ...
> ... shows how uninformed you are.

I don't think so.

-- 
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart. 
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 23:07:12 +0000, George Graves wrote:

> I am sure. NO publishing programs of any kind.

I have pointed you to such programs before.

> No PostScript Vector 
> graphics programs like Illustrator or freehand.

I have pointed you to programs comparable to Illustrator or freehand
before.

> 
> Until there is more commercial software available, I can't even look at
> Linux very seriously. But when there is, I might.

There's plenty of commercial software, but also much more OSS software
that is of high quality.

On 2004-09-11, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> sputtered:

> I am sure. NO publishing programs of any kind. No PostScript Vector 
> graphics programs like Illustrator or freehand.
>
> Until there is more commercial software available, I can't even look at 
> Linux very seriously. But when there is, I might.

You back again, Dick? Gonna start movin' them goalposts around to make
sure your "requirements" to be viable are never met?

You really need to stop letting Oxtard and the rest of the kin drag you
into places you aren't equipped to handle. They really do you a
disservice, you know. That you trust them when they get you into these
things speaks volumes about your own judgment.

Let's see. Where were we? Oh, I remember:

DICK TARD: Linux has no apps.

LINUX USER: Linux has lots of apps.

DICK: Linux has no quality apps.

LINUX USER: Linux has lots of quality apps.

DICK: Linux has no graphical apps.

LINUX USER: Linux has lots of graphics packages, including some used in
            important places, like film making.

DICK: Linux doesn't have any graphics packages that I ever heard about.

LINUX USER: Linux can't be blamed for your ignorance. Others have heard
            of and use them.

DICK: Linux doesn't have any commercial apps.

LINUX USER: Linux has commercial apps. Your ignorance is still your own
            fault.

DICK: Linux doesn't have any commercial apps that I would use.

LINUX USER: Install linux and you might. But it isn't the fault of
            linux that you don't use what's available.

DICK: Linux doesn't have any <Adobe Crapware> available for me to use.

LINUX USER: Gee, Dick, maybe you should take a position and stay with
            it instead of looking for a new one each time you're shown
            to simply be ignorant.

I realize that's not /exactly/ how it went. But it was close enough for
government work.

Unless you'd like me to find and resurrect the thread?

HTH

HAND

-- 
Microsoft: The company that made email dangerous. And web surfing. And
midi files. And MP3s. And on-line banking. And instant messaging.
And peer-to-peer networking. And installing patches. And.....

Sinister Midget <sinister@stinkfoot.biz> wrote:

> > I am sure. NO publishing programs of any kind. No PostScript Vector 
> > graphics programs like Illustrator or freehand.
> >
> > Until there is more commercial software available, I can't even look at 
> > Linux very seriously. But when there is, I might.
> 
> You back again, Dick? Gonna start movin' them goalposts around to make
> sure your "requirements" to be viable are never met?
> 
> You really need to stop letting Oxford and the rest of the kin drag you
> into places you aren't equipped to handle. They really do you a
> disservice, you know. That you trust them when they get you into these
> things speaks volumes about your own judgment.

why are you bringing me into this? i speak the truth in regards to linux 
software availability... george is also correct in simply stating the 
obvious, there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. we all 
KNOW that. why try and fight the truth? nobody that's serious about 
publishing or graphics is going to use linux, sure hobbyists like Liam 
but not professionals. this case is now closed.

Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:

> > I am sure. NO publishing programs of any kind.
> 
> I have pointed you to such programs before.
> 
> > No PostScript Vector 
> > graphics programs like Illustrator or freehand.
> 
> I have pointed you to programs comparable to Illustrator or freehand
> before.
> 
> > 
> > Until there is more commercial software available, I can't even look at
> > Linux very seriously. But when there is, I might.
> 
> There's plenty of commercial software, but also much more OSS software
> that is of high quality.

liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's 
pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams 
liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's 
pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams 
liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams liam's pipe-dreams

Peter K�hlmann <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote:

> begin  Rick wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:56:41 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:
> 
> < snip > 
> 
> >>> No, they get stylish computers running BSD with a single interface,
> >>> unless they choose to add other interfaces.
> >> 
> >> So you cretins like to get stylish gimmicks worth absolutely nothing
> >> with processing power paid two to three times more? Yes, that sounds
> >> reasonable. "Cretins" is wrong. "Extremely stupid cretins" comes closer
> > 
> > You certainly are a bitter person.
> > 
> 
> No. I simply tell you assholes what you are. Ever noticed the name of this
> group? Care to guess what it could mean? Or is this simple feat already way
> over your stylish head?
> 
> > Just so you know, style does matter to some people. 
> 
> Right. There will always be some really stupid dimwits paying premium

I don't understand why you have to direct so much ire at Mac users. Look
at the positive - they're part of the growing army of non-Windows users.
Every Mac sold is one less Windows tax paid to Gates.

> > And you should also 
> > know that cpu GHz comparisons between PPC and x86 chips are not a reliable
> > source of 'computing power' info.
> 
> I know. That is the reason I don't care at all for those. And the simple
> fact is, that there is no Mac machine which can outrun a single AMD64
> machine. Much less a dual, quad or even 8 processor Opteron.
> Where even the dual AMD64 machine with lots more processing ower costs less
> than a dual mac.

The heirarchy runs roughly AMD / G5 / P4 / G4.

> Yes, buying a mac then makes a lot of sense.

Well, my SuSE 8.2 has issues with some hardware, like the Hauppauge
WinTV-USB which means no TV on my Dell laptop running Linux. My
Mac/Eye-TV "just works". 

Installing Mac apps is just a matter of dragging the app to any folder
of my choice, no dll or dependency hell. Uninstalling it is as simple as
dragging it to the trash. No unwelcome guests left behind as might be
the case in Windows.

Oh, and NO viruses/etc...

> To idiots

Or to people who want a secure OS without the Linux hassle factor or
Windows security problems.

-- 

Peter

Oxford <csma@mac.com> wrote:

> Sinister Midget <sinister@stinkfoot.biz> wrote:
> 
> > > I am sure. NO publishing programs of any kind. No PostScript Vector
> > > graphics programs like Illustrator or freehand.
> > >
> > > Until there is more commercial software available, I can't even look at
> > > Linux very seriously. But when there is, I might.
> > 
> > You back again, Dick? Gonna start movin' them goalposts around to make
> > sure your "requirements" to be viable are never met?
> > 
> > You really need to stop letting Oxford and the rest of the kin drag you
> > into places you aren't equipped to handle. They really do you a
> > disservice, you know. That you trust them when they get you into these
> > things speaks volumes about your own judgment.
> 
> why are you bringing me into this? i speak the truth in regards to linux
> software availability... george is also correct in simply stating the
> obvious, there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. we all
> KNOW that. why try and fight the truth? nobody that's serious about 
> publishing or graphics is going to use linux,

You must have missed the bit about Hollywood using CinePaint.

Or Disney using Photoshop on Linux.

Or Alias's Maya for Linux.

Or Houdini.

> sure hobbyists like Liam but not professionals.

Oh, they're hobbyists in Hollywood now, are they? I could believe that
having seen some of their offerings...

> this case is now closed.

We'll close the case when we're good and ready...:) 

-- 

Peter

begin  Peter Hayes wrote:

> Peter K�hlmann <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote:
> 
>> begin  Rick wrote:
>> 
>> > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:56:41 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>> 
>> < snip >
>> 
>> >>> No, they get stylish computers running BSD with a single interface,
>> >>> unless they choose to add other interfaces.
>> >> 
>> >> So you cretins like to get stylish gimmicks worth absolutely nothing
>> >> with processing power paid two to three times more? Yes, that sounds
>> >> reasonable. "Cretins" is wrong. "Extremely stupid cretins" comes
>> >> closer
>> > 
>> > You certainly are a bitter person.
>> > 
>> 
>> No. I simply tell you assholes what you are. Ever noticed the name of
>> this group? Care to guess what it could mean? Or is this simple feat
>> already way over your stylish head?
>> 
>> > Just so you know, style does matter to some people.
>> 
>> Right. There will always be some really stupid dimwits paying premium
> 
> I don't understand why you have to direct so much ire at Mac users. Look
> at the positive - they're part of the growing army of non-Windows users.
> Every Mac sold is one less Windows tax paid to Gates.
> 

I have nothing against Mac users. They simply should use them, and let linux
users use what they want. And additionally they should stop advocating Macs
in a linux group, especially those retards like Oxford, who does not get
the simplest things halfway right. You know, Mac advocacy groups exist

>> > And you should also
>> > know that cpu GHz comparisons between PPC and x86 chips are not a
>> > reliable source of 'computing power' info.
>> 
>> I know. That is the reason I don't care at all for those. And the simple
>> fact is, that there is no Mac machine which can outrun a single AMD64
>> machine. Much less a dual, quad or even 8 processor Opteron.
>> Where even the dual AMD64 machine with lots more processing ower costs
>> less than a dual mac.
> 
> The heirarchy runs roughly AMD / G5 / P4 / G4.
> 
>> Yes, buying a mac then makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Well, my SuSE 8.2 has issues with some hardware, like the Hauppauge
> WinTV-USB which means no TV on my Dell laptop running Linux. My
> Mac/Eye-TV "just works".
> 

Good. Buy hardware which works. Or take a look if a newer kernel does
support your hardware.

> Installing Mac apps is just a matter of dragging the app to any folder
> of my choice, no dll or dependency hell. Uninstalling it is as simple as
> dragging it to the trash. No unwelcome guests left behind as might be
> the case in Windows.
> 

Ah yes. So you use no dynamic loaded libraries. Fine with me. And completely
outdated. Otherwise, your claim is bullshit. I certainly do not want
bloated Multi-Megabyte apps

> Oh, and NO viruses/etc...
> 

Well, linux has no viruses either, so that argument is of no value at all

>> To idiots
> 
> Or to people who want a secure OS without the Linux hassle factor or
> Windows security problems.
> 

I see no hassle factor. But what I see from the Mac camp posting in cola is
utter retards and cretins. About on a par with Kerke, DFS, flatfish and
Rich Bell. Makes sure for a fine impression. Conclusion: Mac users are
idiots
-- 
Howe's Law:    Everyone has a scheme that will not work.

Jim Estes <jbestes@attbi.net> wrote in message news:<jbestes-5CEA74.10025410092004@news.uswest.net>...

[snippage]

> lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
> point.

On what do you base this assumption? 

I did a quick search on www.dice.com and www.hotjobs.com for "linux"
and "mac os x"... seems to me that Linux jobs outnumber Mac OS X jobs
30 to 1. Most of the Linux jobs were for developers or would require
developer skills. Most of the Mac OS X jobs did not require developer
skills.

While what you said may be true it seems difficult to believe. The
results of my searches seem pretty grim for someone wanting to get a
job as a Mac OS X developer.

-DU-...etc...

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:48:42 -0700, utidjian wrote:

> Jim Estes <jbestes@attbi.net> wrote in message news:<jbestes-5CEA74.10025410092004@news.uswest.net>...
> 
> [snippage]
> 
>> lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
>> point.
> 
> On what do you base this assumption? 
> 
> I did a quick search on www.dice.com and www.hotjobs.com for "linux"
> and "mac os x"... seems to me that Linux jobs outnumber Mac OS X jobs
> 30 to 1. Most of the Linux jobs were for developers or would require
> developer skills. Most of the Mac OS X jobs did not require developer
> skills.
> 
> While what you said may be true it seems difficult to believe. The
> results of my searches seem pretty grim for someone wanting to get a
> job as a Mac OS X developer.
> 
> -DU-...etc...

A wise job candidate would also know a system other than OS X, if he
doesn't want to find himself working the till at McDonalds.

-- 
Mathew M. <mathew@spiesNOSPAMareus.yi.org>
GPG public key ID: 0x3DDC1413

This post contains a chemical or chemicals known to the state of California
to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. This (these) 
chemical(s) may be harmful to your health.

utidjian@gmail.com (utidjian) wrote:
]
> 
> > lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
> > point.
> 
> On what do you base this assumption? 
> 
> I did a quick search on www.dice.com and www.hotjobs.com for "linux"
> and "mac os x"... seems to me that Linux jobs outnumber Mac OS X jobs
> 30 to 1. Most of the Linux jobs were for developers or would require
> developer skills. Most of the Mac OS X jobs did not require developer
> skills.

I said "developers", not people looking for "jobs", that's a big 
difference. What you found just shows Linux is painfully hard to 
maintain and there clearly aren't enough people to support it.

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:09:31 -0600, Jim Estes wrote:
> utidjian@gmail.com (utidjian) wrote:
> ]
>> 
>> > lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
>> > point.
>> 
>> On what do you base this assumption? 
>> 
>> I did a quick search on www.dice.com and www.hotjobs.com for "linux"
>> and "mac os x"... seems to me that Linux jobs outnumber Mac OS X jobs
>> 30 to 1. Most of the Linux jobs were for developers or would require
>> developer skills. Most of the Mac OS X jobs did not require developer
>> skills.
>
> I said "developers", not people looking for "jobs", that's a big 
> difference. What you found just shows Linux is painfully hard to 
> maintain and there clearly aren't enough people to support it.

That doesn't follow.  A shortage of people capable of filling a position
could mean either.


-- 
FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE i386
11:10AM  up 2 days, 17:33, 0 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

General Protection Fault <generalpf@braids.ertw.com> wrote:

> >> I did a quick search on www.dice.com and www.hotjobs.com for "linux"
> >> and "mac os x"... seems to me that Linux jobs outnumber Mac OS X jobs
> >> 30 to 1. Most of the Linux jobs were for developers or would require
> >> developer skills. Most of the Mac OS X jobs did not require developer
> >> skills.
> >
> > I said "developers", not people looking for "jobs", that's a big 
> > difference. What you found just shows Linux is painfully hard to 
> > maintain and there clearly aren't enough people to support it.
> 
> That doesn't follow.  A shortage of people capable of filling a position
> could mean either.

sure it does, if he would of added "windows" to his "job search" he 
would of had a blast of "opportunities"... fact is, windows is the most 
problematic, then linux, then, osx... 

developers are people that "create" new software, not fix what's 
there... people that want to develop for "unix" do it on osx even if it 
will be later played on linux / solaris, etc. it's increasingly hard to 
find a pure linux developer.

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:33:13 -0600, Jim Estes wrote:
> General Protection Fault <generalpf@braids.ertw.com> wrote:
>
>> >> I did a quick search on www.dice.com and www.hotjobs.com for "linux"
>> >> and "mac os x"... seems to me that Linux jobs outnumber Mac OS X jobs
>> >> 30 to 1. Most of the Linux jobs were for developers or would require
>> >> developer skills. Most of the Mac OS X jobs did not require developer
>> >> skills.
>> >
>> > I said "developers", not people looking for "jobs", that's a big 
>> > difference. What you found just shows Linux is painfully hard to 
>> > maintain and there clearly aren't enough people to support it.
>> 
>> That doesn't follow.  A shortage of people capable of filling a position
>> could mean either.
>
> sure it does, if he would of added "windows" to his "job search" he 
> would of had a blast of "opportunities"... fact is, windows is the most 
> problematic, then linux, then, osx... 

Just because there's a job opening doesn't mean a candidate can't be found.
If there are lingering job openings, then yeah, there arent't enough
people to support it.  If there are numerous short-lived openings, it
could indicate a burgeoning demand.  

I'm getting the feeling you're the "statistician" behind those Microsoft
TCO reports.

> developers are people that "create" new software, not fix what's 
> there... people that want to develop for "unix" do it on osx even if it 
> will be later played on linux / solaris, etc. it's increasingly hard to 
> find a pure linux developer.

You've got to be kidding.  Developers don't just create new software.  They
add features to existing software and fix existing software as well.

-- 
FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE i386
 2:30PM  up 2 days, 20:53, 0 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:41:58 -0600, Oxford wrote:

> 
> why are you bringing me into this? i speak the truth in regards to linux 
> software availability... george is also correct in simply stating the 
> obvious, there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. we all 
> KNOW that. why try and fight the truth? nobody that's serious about 
> publishing or graphics is going to use linux, sure hobbyists like Liam 
> but not professionals. this case is now closed.

No, professionals like Disney's movie makers aren't going to use Linux...
oh wait, they do.

-- 
Rick

begin  Oxcretin wrote:

> Sinister Midget <sinister@stinkfoot.biz> wrote:
> 
>> > I am sure. NO publishing programs of any kind. No PostScript Vector
>> > graphics programs like Illustrator or freehand.
>> >
>> > Until there is more commercial software available, I can't even look at
>> > Linux very seriously. But when there is, I might.
>> 
>> You back again, Dick? Gonna start movin' them goalposts around to make
>> sure your "requirements" to be viable are never met?
>> 
>> You really need to stop letting Oxford and the rest of the kin drag you
>> into places you aren't equipped to handle. They really do you a
>> disservice, you know. That you trust them when they get you into these
>> things speaks volumes about your own judgment.
> 
> why are you bringing me into this? i speak the truth in regards to linux
> software availability... george is also correct in simply stating the
> obvious, there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. we all
> KNOW that. why try and fight the truth? nobody that's serious about
> publishing or graphics is going to use linux, sure hobbyists like Liam
> but not professionals. this case is now closed.

Good to know that. Movies like LotR have never been made, you seem to tell
us. Shrek does not exist. Yeah right
-- 
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Peter Kohlmann <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote:

> Good to know that. Movies like LotR have never been made, you seem to tell
> us. Shrek does not exist. Yeah right

gosh you are clueless, i said publishing / graphics... didn't mean to 
imply motion graphics, in which apple helped produce LotR.

http://www.apple.com/shake/stories/lotr/

yes, some was done on linux for the short term, but you just know shake 
4.0 will be on osx only.

http://www.apple.com/shake/specs.html

begin  Oxford the cretin wrote:

> Peter Kohlmann <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote:
> 
>> Good to know that. Movies like LotR have never been made, you seem to
>> tell us. Shrek does not exist. Yeah right
> 
> gosh you are clueless, i said publishing / graphics... didn't mean to
> imply motion graphics, in which apple helped produce LotR.
> 

You wrote: "hobbyists like Liam but not professionals. this case is now
closed"

In other words, companies like Weta or ILM are just hobbyists
Nice way of backpedaling

And no, Apple did not help much to produce it. It ran on linux machines

> http://www.apple.com/shake/stories/lotr/
> 
> yes, some was done on linux for the short term, but you just know shake
> 4.0 will be on osx only.
> 
> http://www.apple.com/shake/specs.html

Oh, even now you admit that apple had not much to do with it?
-- 
If you had any brains, you'd be dangerous.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:53:52 -0600, Oxford wrote:

> Peter Kohlmann <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote:
> 
>> Good to know that. Movies like LotR have never been made, you seem to tell
>> us. Shrek does not exist. Yeah right
> 
> gosh you are clueless, i said publishing / graphics...

And you're still incorrect Oxford. Scribus, an app you once described as
worthless for desktop publishing work, is being used professionally. As is
Inkscape (a scalable vector graphics app similar to Illustrator,
CorelDraw, Visio, etc.)

> didn't mean to imply motion graphics, in which apple helped produce
> LotR. http://www.apple.com/shake/stories/lotr/

Apple didn't buy Shake until after the first movie was being made. Weta
has a couple Mac workstations, lots and lots of Linux workstations, and
zero Mac renderfarm nodes....those are Linux.

>
> yes, some was done on linux for the short term, but you just know shake
> 4.0 will be on osx only.
> 
> http://www.apple.com/shake/specs.html


If you think Weta is going to scrap all their Linux based renderfarm
nodes, and workstations, for *macintosh* based systems....you are smoking
crack. Especially when everything else in the industry is running on Linux.

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:41:58 -0600, Oxford wrote:

>  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux.


I have spanked you on this before Oxford.

Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:

> >  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. 
> 
> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.

you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old PhotoShop 
running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow focus, not ANY 
good for day to day work with images. sorry.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:

>  CinePaint has an extremely narrow focus, not ANY 
> good for day to day work with images.


You are incorrect. While CinePaint has nowhere near the narrow
focus you seem to think it has. It's a general purpose image manipulation
application for web, print, and film.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:

> Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
> 
>> >  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. 
>> 
>> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
> 
> you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old PhotoShop 
> running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow focus, not ANY 
> good for day to day work with images. sorry.

Disney disagrees with you.

-- 
Rick

On 2004-09-13, Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> sputtered:
> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:41:58 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>
>>  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux.
>
>
> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.

Careful! He'll pull out his trump card, brother Dick Tard, who is the
master goalpost mover (or, so he'd like to be).

-- 
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:09:31 -0600, Jim Estes wrote:

> utidjian@gmail.com (utidjian) wrote:
> ]
>> 
>> > lots, there's probably more osx developers than linux developers at this 
>> > point.
>> 
>> On what do you base this assumption? 
>> 
>> I did a quick search on www.dice.com and www.hotjobs.com for "linux"
>> and "mac os x"... seems to me that Linux jobs outnumber Mac OS X jobs
>> 30 to 1. Most of the Linux jobs were for developers or would require
>> developer skills. Most of the Mac OS X jobs did not require developer
>> skills.
> 
> I said "developers", not people looking for "jobs", that's a big 
> difference. 

I think you mis-read what I said. Seems to me that my searches found
"companies looking for developers" not "people looking for jobs".
Obviously you can spin that any way you like... so can I.

> What you found just shows Linux is painfully hard to 
> maintain and there clearly aren't enough people to support it.

How do you get that????

Quick question(s):

How would you update a network of 10, 100, or 1000 Mac OS X clients to the
latest updates from Apple?

How would you do the same for a Linux distro?

How would you do the same for Mac OS X clients but with new or updated
apps NOT from Apple?

How would you do the same for new or updated apps NOT from a Linux distro?

In Linux this is trivial to setup. It only requires enabling a service in
Fedora Core.

My original question still remains unanswered.

-DU-...etc...

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:33:13 -0600, Jim Estes wrote:

> General Protection Fault <generalpf@braids.ertw.com> wrote:

> developers are people that "create" new software, not fix what's 
> there... people that want to develop for "unix" do it on osx even if it 
> will be later played on linux / solaris, etc. it's increasingly hard to 
> find a pure linux developer.

On what do you base the this assumption?

Does a developer that works on, say, gaim count as a Linux developer, a
Windows developer, a *BSD developer, or a Mac OS X developer? Gaim has
been ported to all those platforms. Does the person doing the porting
count as a developer?

I see a LOT of Unix/Linux apps being ported to Mac OS X. For example the
Fink project alone has ported 4159 packages to Mac OS X
(http://fink.sourceforge.net). 
Can you name a single application or utility that was originally developed
on/for Mac OS X that was later ported to Unix/Linux?

-DU-...etc...

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:50:31 GMT, David Utidjian wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:33:13 -0600, Jim Estes wrote:
>
>> General Protection Fault <generalpf@braids.ertw.com> wrote:
>
>> developers are people that "create" new software, not fix what's 
>> there... people that want to develop for "unix" do it on osx even if it 
>> will be later played on linux / solaris, etc. it's increasingly hard to 
>> find a pure linux developer.

Whoa, don't credit me with that, I didn't write it.

-- 
FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE i386
 8:20AM  up 3 days, 14:43, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
> 
> > Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> >  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. 
> >> 
> >> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
> > 
> > you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old PhotoShop 
> > running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow focus, not ANY 
> > good for day to day work with images. sorry.
> 
> Disney disagrees with you.

Walt Disney is dead.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:40:08 -0700, Edwin wrote:

> Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message
> news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>> 
>> > Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> >> >  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux.
>> >> 
>> >> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
>> > 
>> > you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old
>> > PhotoShop running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow
>> > focus, not ANY good for day to day work with images. sorry.
>> 
>> Disney disagrees with you.
> 
> Walt Disney is dead.


The company you twit.

Edwin wrote:
> Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
> 
>>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. 
>>>>
>>>>I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
>>>
>>>you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old PhotoShop 
>>>running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow focus, not ANY 
>>>good for day to day work with images. sorry.
>>
>>Disney disagrees with you.
> 
> 
> Walt Disney is dead.

Too bad Disney didn't follow, their the reason for the fsck'd up 
copyright terms they have in the US.

George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<gmgravesnos-3CD378.16231309092004@newssvr21-ext.news.prodigy.com>...
> In article <slrnck1nn8.gpc.jedi@nomad.mishnet>,
>  JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote:
> 
> > ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
> > On 2004-09-09, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article <3du512-skf.ln1@ralph.homelinux.net>,
> > >  Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
>  [deletia]
> > >> > I buy what pleases me and I *AM* getting something. I'm getting a useful 
> > >> > OS that has some of the best shrink-wrapped software there is.
> > >> 
> > >>    Yeah, thats why the biggest titles are the Microsoft ones. Might as
> > >>    well use "the real thing".
> > >
> > > Most titles are cross-platform. Many work better on the Mac than they do 
> > > on Windows.
> > 
> > 	Just who the H*LL do you think YOU kidding?
> 
> Nobody. It's just true. MS Office for Windows is a lot better for the 
> Mac than it is on Windows. So is Illustrator, Photoshop, and especially 
> InDesign.

When does AutoCAD or ProE port to the Mac?

> > [deletia]
> > 
> > 	Apple has a TINY fraction of the software library available to WinDOS
> > and always has.
> 
> True. Windows users put up with a lot more garbage software than Mac 
> users will put up with. So, out of dozens of Word Processors available 
> for Windows, the only one anyone uses is Word, so who do the other 23 
> sell to? Each other, I guess. And the reason is simple. Word is the 
> world standard and the other WPs aren't as good. So who needs 24 WPs 
> when the world really only accepts one?
> 
> > Apple might have some of the better payware. However, most
> > end users aren't interested in those sorts of apps.
> 
> End users don't use Word Processors?

George is displaying his typical dishonesty.   He uses Windows himself
because automotive software he needs is not available for the Mac.  
Yet here he is pretending that the advantage in Windows software is
lots of unneeded word processors.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:40:08 -0700, Edwin wrote:

> Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>> 
>> > Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> >> >  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. 
>> >> 
>> >> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
>> > 
>> > you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old PhotoShop 
>> > running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow focus, not ANY 
>> > good for day to day work with images. sorry.
>> 
>> Disney disagrees with you.
> 
> Walt Disney is dead.

Idiot.

-- 
Rick

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:47:12 -0500, Liam Slider wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:40:08 -0700, Edwin wrote:
> 
>> Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
>>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> >> >  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux.
>>> >> 
>>> >> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
>>> > 
>>> > you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old
>>> > PhotoShop running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow
>>> > focus, not ANY good for day to day work with images. sorry.
>>> 
>>> Disney disagrees with you.
>> 
>> Walt Disney is dead.
> 
> 
> The company you twit.

Edwin thinks he has a sense of humor.

-- 
Rick

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:24:15 -0400, Rick wrote:

> Edwin thinks


News to me.

On 2004-09-14, Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> sputtered:
> Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>> 
>> > Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> >> >  there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. 
>> >> 
>> >> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
>> > 
>> > you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old PhotoShop 
>> > running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow focus, not ANY 
>> > good for day to day work with images. sorry.
>> 
>> Disney disagrees with you.
>
> Walt Disney is dead.

Obtuseness evidently isn't.

-- 
Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make
it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay
for new products or new versions of existing products."

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:24:27 +0000, General Protection Fault wrote:

> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:50:31 GMT, David Utidjian wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:33:13 -0600, Jim Estes wrote:
>>
>>> General Protection Fault <generalpf@braids.ertw.com> wrote:
>>
>>> developers are people that "create" new software, not fix what's 
>>> there... people that want to develop for "unix" do it on osx even if it 
>>> will be later played on linux / solaris, etc. it's increasingly hard to 
>>> find a pure linux developer.
> 
> Whoa, don't credit me with that, I didn't write it.

Whoops. Sorry. I know it wasn't you who said that. It was Jim Estes.
Musta trimmed the lines wrong.

-DU-...etc...

Edwin wrote:
> Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
> 
>>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux. 
>>>>
>>>>I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
>>>
>>>you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old PhotoShop 
>>>running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow focus, not ANY 
>>>good for day to day work with images. sorry.
>>
>>Disney disagrees with you.
> 
> 
> Walt Disney is dead.

Not really. He is freezed so they will return him to life
in the 2050.

-- 

Jose Maria Lopez Hernandez
Director Tecnico de bgSEC
jkerouac@bgsec.com
bgSEC Seguridad y Consultoria de Sistemas Informaticos
http://www.bgsec.com
ESPA�A

The only people for me are the mad ones -- the ones who are mad to live,
mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time,
the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn
like fabulous yellow Roman candles.
                 -- Jack Kerouac, "On the Road"

Jose Maria Lopez Hernandez wrote:
> Edwin wrote:
>> Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
>>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
>>>>
>>>> you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old
>>>> PhotoShop running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow
>>>> focus, not ANY good for day to day work with images. sorry.
>>>
>>> Disney disagrees with you.
>>
>>
>> Walt Disney is dead.
>
> Not really. He is freezed so they will return him to life
> in the 2050.


Wrong.

http://www.snopes.com/disney/waltdisn/frozen.htm

S.Heenan wrote:
> Jose Maria Lopez Hernandez wrote:
> 
>>Edwin wrote:
>>
>>>Rick <none@none.com> wrote in message
>>>news:<pan.2004.09.14.03.14.35.714@none.com>...
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:57:06 -0600, Oxford wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>there are NO publishing / graphics programs on linux.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have spanked you on this before Oxford.
>>>>>
>>>>>you never did, the best you could come up with is a 2 year old
>>>>>PhotoShop running under wine. CinePaint has an extremely narrow
>>>>>focus, not ANY good for day to day work with images. sorry.
>>>>
>>>>Disney disagrees with you.
>>>
>>>
>>>Walt Disney is dead.
>>
>>Not really. He is freezed so they will return him to life
>>in the 2050.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/disney/waltdisn/frozen.htm
> 
> 

What a pity!!!! I was thinking in Dumbo 2 and the 2050 version
of Mickey.


-- 

Jose Maria Lopez Hernandez
Director Tecnico de bgSEC
jkerouac@bgsec.com
bgSEC Seguridad y Consultoria de Sistemas Informaticos
http://www.bgsec.com
ESPA�A

The only people for me are the mad ones -- the ones who are mad to live,
mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time,
the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn
like fabulous yellow Roman candles.
                 -- Jack Kerouac, "On the Road"

Peter K�hlmann wrote:

OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message source.

Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:

begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:

< snip >

Hi flatfish
-- 
Microsoft: The company that made email dangerous


You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert begin, and 
two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:" attributation generated 
by the news reader.

In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a "typo," but 
simply people making malicious use of their knowledge of how OE works. 

begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
	"Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>
> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert
> begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:"
> attributation generated by the news reader.
>
> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their knowledge of
> how OE works.

There are people who like to right justify their text. It is very easy
to trigger the begin bug this way:

All it takes  is the justifying text left and right  in an editor like
emacs for  the begin bug to  be triggered depending on  where the word
begin  appears in the  text. I'm sure I can do it. Lets see, yup, done
it.

Oh, you didn't see it? Tough.

begin  Edwin wrote:

> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
> 
> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
> source.
> 
> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
> 
> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
> 
> < snip >
> 
> Hi flatfish

Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
fine without any additional hoopla

Idiot
-- 
Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]

Peter K�hlmann wrote:

Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:

begin  Edwin wrote:

> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>
> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
> source.
>
> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>
> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>
> < snip >
>
> Hi flatfish

Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
fine without any additional hoopla


As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
"typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works. 

Roy Culley wrote:
> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>
>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert
>> begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:"
>> attributation generated by the news reader.
>>
>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their knowledge of
>> how OE works.
>
> There are people who like to right justify their text. It is very easy
> to trigger the begin bug this way:

Please explain how right justifying text would insert "begin" and two spaces 
before "Roy Culley wrote:," in this message.

> All it takes  is the justifying text left and right  in an editor like
> emacs for  the begin bug to  be triggered depending on  where the word

Yet such things are never encountered in any news group but this one.

You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your 
current position. 

begin  Edwin wrote:

> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
> 
> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
> 
> begin  Edwin wrote:
> 
>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>
>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>> source.
>>
>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>
>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>
>> < snip >
>>
>> Hi flatfish
> 
> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
> fine without any additional hoopla
> 
> 
> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a
> "typo."   

I have never claimed to be doing a typo myself. I have always openly said
that I have set up my newsreader to automatically insert this in *every*
post. Setting this up took all of 10 seconds

> You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the 
> attribution
> generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making
> malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.

No. It is nothing more than keeping cretins like you busy
-- 
I say you need to visit Clues 'R' Us. They are having a special on 
slightly used clues.

Edwin wrote:
> Roy Culley wrote:
>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>
>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert
>>> begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:"
>>> attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>
>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their knowledge of
>>> how OE works.

It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh huh begin
huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter Kohlmann and Ralph.



>> There are people who like to right justify their text. It is very
>> easy to trigger the begin bug this way:
>
> Please explain how right justifying text would insert "begin" and two
> spaces before "Roy Culley wrote:," in this message.
>
>> All it takes  is the justifying text left and right  in an editor
>> like emacs for  the begin bug to  be triggered depending on  where
>> the word
>
> Yet such things are never encountered in any news group but this one.
>
> You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your
> current position.

begin  Edwin wrote:

>You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your 
>current position. 

Only an idiot would use OE.

On 2004-09-16, Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> sputtered:
> Roy Culley wrote:
>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>
>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert
>>> begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:"
>>> attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>
>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their knowledge of
>>> how OE works.
>>
>> There are people who like to right justify their text. It is very easy
>> to trigger the begin bug this way:
>
> Please explain how right justifying text would insert "begin" and two spaces 
> before "Roy Culley wrote:," in this message.
>
>> All it takes  is the justifying text left and right  in an editor like
>> emacs for  the begin bug to  be triggered depending on  where the word
>
> Yet such things are never encountered in any news group but this one.

I can name at least one other, because I see a poster there that uses
full justification often. Not that it /has/ happened, but that it has
the /potential/ for happening unplanned. I doubt seriously if his posts
only go to the 2 linux groups.

-- 
Microsoft: The company that made online banking dangerous..

begin  <rbk2d.3027$Qv5.1998@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
	"Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
> Roy Culley wrote:
>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>
>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert
>>> begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:"
>>> attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>
>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their knowledge of
>>> how OE works.
>>
>> There are people who like to right justify their text. It is very easy
>> to trigger the begin bug this way:
> 
> Please explain how right justifying text would insert "begin" and
> two spaces before "Roy Culley wrote:," in this message.

My newsreader is configured to prepend 'begin ' on every reply I
make. There is no reason at all why any newsreader should have any
problem with that. If yours does then complain to MS to fix the bug.

I have clearly shown how 'begin ' might easily appear at the start of
a line. OE and Outlook are simply buggy and MS won't fix it.

> 
>> All it takes  is the justifying text left and right  in an editor like
>> emacs for  the begin bug to  be triggered depending on  where the word
> 
> Yet such things are never encountered in any news group but this one.
> 
> You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve
> your current position.

You're an ignorant cretin. You had a .sig delimiter before your text
and my newsreader correctly snipped everything after it. Learn how to
compose usenet articles before opening your mouth showing the fool you
are.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:39:31 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
> 
> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message source.

And now everyone in COLA will see what a cretin you are.

> 
> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
> 
> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
> 
> < snip >
> 
> Hi flatfish

.... and you prove it again. Now trundle off and go find out who flatfish
is.
-- 
Rick

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
> 
> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
> 
> begin  Edwin wrote:
> 
>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>
>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>> source.
>>
>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>
>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>
>> < snip >
>>
>> Hi flatfish
> 
> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
> fine without any additional hoopla

.... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.

> 
> 
> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
> "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
> generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
> malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.

Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.

-- 
Rick

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Edwin wrote:
>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert
>>>> begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:"
>>>> attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>
>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their knowledge of
>>>> how OE works.
> 
> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh huh begin
> huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter Kohlmann and Ralph.
> 

.... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't be
bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure out how to sue
OO.o users.

(snip)

-- 
Rick

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> begin  Edwin wrote:
> 
>>You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your 
>>current position. 
> 
> Only an idiot would use OE.

And ues, the Eddies do use IE.

-- 
Rick

Rick wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Edwin wrote:
>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert
>>>>> begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:"
>>>>> attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their knowledge
>>>>> of how OE works.
>>
>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh huh
>> begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter Kohlmann and
>> Ralph.
>>
>
> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't be
> bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure out how
> to sue OO.o users.

Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical again?




> (snip)

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Rick wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to insert
>>>>>> begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen wrote:"
>>>>>> attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their knowledge
>>>>>> of how OE works.
>>>
>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh huh
>>> begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter Kohlmann and
>>> Ralph.
>>>
>>
>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't be
>> bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure out how
>> to sue OO.o users.
> 
> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical again?
> 

Read the news.

-- 
Rick

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
> 
>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>> 
>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>> 
>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>> 
>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>
>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>>> source.
>>>
>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>
>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>
>>> < snip >
>>>
>>> Hi flatfish
>> 
>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
>> fine without any additional hoopla
> 
> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.

Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.

>> 
>> 
>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
>> "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
>> generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
>> malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.
> 
> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.

No, it's what I wrote above.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>> 
>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>> 
>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>> 
>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>>>> source.
>>>>
>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>
>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> < snip >
>>>>
>>>> Hi flatfish
>>> 
>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
>>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
>>> fine without any additional hoopla
>> 
>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
> 
> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>

at the moment, it doen't. So what?
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
>>> "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
>>> generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
>>> malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.
>> 
>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
> 
> No, it's what I wrote above.

Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.

-- 
Rick

Rick wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Rick wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to
>>>>>>> insert begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen
>>>>>>> wrote:" attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their
>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>
>>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh
>>>> huh begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter Kohlmann
>>>> and Ralph.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't be
>>> bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure out how
>>> to sue OO.o users.
>>
>> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical again?
>>
>
> Read the news.


I did find this bit of hysteria: "Is Microsoft Poised to Sue OpenOffice
Licensees?"  http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1646498,00.asp.  No word
from MS itself in the article, of course.

You said MS is trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users (which would
include you and me).  So, where's your evidence?

begin  On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 GMT, "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com>
wrote:

>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>
>Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>
>begin  Edwin wrote:
>
>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>
>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>> source.
>>
>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>
>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>
>> < snip >
>>
>> Hi flatfish
>
>Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
>And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
>fine without any additional hoopla
>
>
>As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
>"typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
>generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
>malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works. 
>

Waaaaah!



Uncle Fester

Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer in
worthless horses, croaked:


> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]

Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci fixerit es
eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio trabe at aliorsum nil
ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule avexerat, es.

Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque. Obes
obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat ui anaque
faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus aemulantium.
Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at ultor uisa re.

Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea. Ibat
adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam prendit luxu.
Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture limo ni bos. Emittit
suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque mihique.

Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha Man,
Usenet]



-- 
Dinner tonight is marinated piglet gut with bladder garnish accompanied with
microwaved dead animals and foreskin compote accentuated by barbequed maggot
thigh, dished up in a bubbling mug with a slew of medium-rare asparagus,
squirming bits of cartilage and abalone bone marrow gravy, a side of pickles
and a pint of lizard semen.

begin  It was on Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:43:28 +0200, that Roy Culley wrote
this:

> begin  <rbk2d.3027$Qv5.1998@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
> 	"Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>, "Edwin"
<snip whining>

> My newsreader is configured to prepend 'begin ' on every reply I make.
> There is no reason at all why any newsreader should have any problem with
> that. If yours does then complain to MS to fix the bug.

And so is mine.
 
> I have clearly shown how 'begin ' might easily appear at the start of a
> line. 

Or the lyrics of a song:
"When they...
begin  the beguine"  Cole Porter, 1953, I think...


> OE and Outlook are simply buggy and MS won't fix it.

T'was ever thus...


<snippety>
-- 
Installing Linux is easy, just watch
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6276

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:14:05 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Rick wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> Rick wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to
>>>>>>>> insert begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen
>>>>>>>> wrote:" attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>>>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their
>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh
>>>>> huh begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter Kohlmann
>>>>> and Ralph.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't be
>>>> bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure out how
>>>> to sue OO.o users.
>>>
>>> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical again?
>>>
>>
>> Read the news.
> 
> 
> I did find this bit of hysteria: "Is Microsoft Poised to Sue OpenOffice
> Licensees?"  http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1646498,00.asp.  No word
> from MS itself in the article, of course.
> 
> You said MS is trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users (which would
> include you and me).  So, where's your evidence?

"Microsoft is just keeping its options open," said Tom Moore, an IP
(intellectual property) litigator with the Palo Alto, Calif., firm of
Tomlinson Zisko LLP. "It would be a bad PR move for them to go after
OpenOffice licensees."

"The language in the settlement contract in which Microsoft reserves the
right to file a lawsuit against OpenOffice users is not all that unusual,"
concurred Yankee Group senior analyst Laura DiDio. "I believe Microsoft is
hedging its bets and leaving all potential areas of redress open to the
company."

"That said," DiDio continued, "I do not believe Microsoft is currently
constructing a strategy or scenario in the near or intermediate terms to
quash OpenSource via litigation. So, while it's undeniably possible that
Microsoft could sue OpenOffice users, the probability is low—at least
for the next two years."

-- 
Rick

Rick wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:14:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Rick wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to
>>>>>>>>> insert begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen
>>>>>>>>> wrote:" attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>>>>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their
>>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh
>>>>>> huh begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter
>>>>>> Kohlmann and Ralph.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't
>>>>> be bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure
>>>>> out how to sue OO.o users.
>>>>
>>>> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical
>>>> again?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Read the news.
>>
>>
>> I did find this bit of hysteria: "Is Microsoft Poised to Sue
>> OpenOffice Licensees?"
>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1646498,00.asp.  No word from
>> MS itself in the article, of course.
>>
>> You said MS is trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users (which
>> would include you and me).  So, where's your evidence?
>
> "Microsoft is just keeping its options open," said Tom Moore, an IP
> (intellectual property) litigator with the Palo Alto, Calif., firm of
> Tomlinson Zisko LLP. "It would be a bad PR move for them to go after
> OpenOffice licensees."
>
> "The language in the settlement contract in which Microsoft reserves
> the right to file a lawsuit against OpenOffice users is not all that
> unusual," concurred Yankee Group senior analyst Laura DiDio. "I
> believe Microsoft is hedging its bets and leaving all potential areas
> of redress open to the company."
>
> "That said," DiDio continued, "I do not believe Microsoft is currently
> constructing a strategy or scenario in the near or intermediate terms
> to quash OpenSource via litigation. So, while it's undeniably
> possible that Microsoft could sue OpenOffice users, the probability
> is low-at least
> for the next two years."


As I knew before I asked (but enjoyed watching you prove), this is typical
Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia.

There's not a single shred of evidence in your quotes, or in that article -
not one word - that supports your claim that MS is "too busy trying to
figure out how to sue OO.o users."

This is exactly the kind of statement that Rex Ballard makes all the time.

Typical lying Linux liars.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:18 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Rick wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:14:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> Rick wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to
>>>>>>>>>> insert begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:" attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>>>>>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh
>>>>>>> huh begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter
>>>>>>> Kohlmann and Ralph.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't
>>>>>> be bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure
>>>>>> out how to sue OO.o users.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical
>>>>> again?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read the news.
>>>
>>>
>>> I did find this bit of hysteria: "Is Microsoft Poised to Sue
>>> OpenOffice Licensees?"
>>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1646498,00.asp.  No word from
>>> MS itself in the article, of course.
>>>
>>> You said MS is trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users (which
>>> would include you and me).  So, where's your evidence?
>>
>> "Microsoft is just keeping its options open," said Tom Moore, an IP
>> (intellectual property) litigator with the Palo Alto, Calif., firm of
>> Tomlinson Zisko LLP. "It would be a bad PR move for them to go after
>> OpenOffice licensees."
>>
>> "The language in the settlement contract in which Microsoft reserves
>> the right to file a lawsuit against OpenOffice users is not all that
>> unusual," concurred Yankee Group senior analyst Laura DiDio. "I
>> believe Microsoft is hedging its bets and leaving all potential areas
>> of redress open to the company."
>>
>> "That said," DiDio continued, "I do not believe Microsoft is currently
>> constructing a strategy or scenario in the near or intermediate terms
>> to quash OpenSource via litigation. So, while it's undeniably
>> possible that Microsoft could sue OpenOffice users, the probability
>> is low-at least
>> for the next two years."
> 
> 
> As I knew before I asked (but enjoyed watching you prove), this is typical
> Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia.

You're a liar.

> 
> There's not a single shred of evidence in your quotes, or in that article -
> not one word - that supports your claim that MS is "too busy trying to
> figure out how to sue OO.o users."

microsoft's past unethical, immoral and illegal activity, plus the quotes
above are more than enough to support my opinion.

> 
> This is exactly the kind of statement that Rex Ballard makes all the time.

So what?

> 
> Typical lying Linux liars.

1. I am not typical.
2. I am not a liar.
3. YOU are a liar.

-- 
Rick

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Rick:

> "That said," DiDio continued, "I do not believe Microsoft is currently
> constructing a strategy or scenario in the near or intermediate terms to
> quash OpenSource via litigation. So, while it's undeniably possible that
> Microsoft could sue OpenOffice users, the probability is low?at least
> for the next two years."

She's a freakin' idiot.

You'd better make sure you download the source code.  I smell a fork in the
road.

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>> 
>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>>>>> source.
>>>>>
>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>
>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>> 
>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
>>>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
>>>> fine without any additional hoopla
>>> 
>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>> 
>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>
> 
> at the moment, it doen't. So what?

Go complain to who wrote it.

>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
>>>> "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
>>>> generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
>>>> malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.
>>> 
>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>> 
>> No, it's what I wrote above.
> 
> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.

No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
that way.

begin  C:\AUX Edwin wrote:

< snip > 

> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
> follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
> that way.

It is a bug. It should adhere to some standard, which would be coded as

begin 654 some_Attachment

Actual Attachment

end

Just loooking for 

begin  some_Attachment

without actually looking for a matching 

end

is just sheer stupidity

In other words, a perfect match for MS software

-- 
begin  LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.VBS
I am an email virus. ILOVEYOU. Download me
Kindly check the nonattached LOVELETTER coming from me.
end 

Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer in
> worthless horses, croaked:
> 
> 
> > Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
> > perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
> 
> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci fixerit es
> eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio trabe at aliorsum nil
> ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule avexerat, es.
> 
> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque. Obes
> obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat ui anaque
> faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus aemulantium.
> Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at ultor uisa re.
> 
> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea. Ibat
> adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam prendit luxu.
> Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture limo ni bos. Emittit
> suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque mihique.
> 
> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha Man,
> Usenet]

WTF is that? dutch?

Aquila Deus wrote:
> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
> news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer in
>> worthless horses, croaked:
>>
>>
>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>>
>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
>> fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio
>> trabe at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule
>> avexerat, es.
>>
>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque.
>> Obes obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat
>> ui anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus
>> aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at
>> ultor uisa re.
>>
>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea. Ibat
>> adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam prendit
>> luxu. Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture limo ni
>> bos. Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque mihique.
>>
>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha
>> Man, Usenet]
>
> WTF is that? dutch?

It really doesn't matter what it was, you still wouldn't
have understood it.

On 17 Sep 2004 11:41:40 -0700, Aquila Deus wrote:

> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer in
>> worthless horses, croaked:
>> 
>> 
>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>> 
>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci fixerit es
>> eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio trabe at aliorsum nil
>> ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule avexerat, es.
>> 
>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque. Obes
>> obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat ui anaque
>> faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus aemulantium.
>> Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at ultor uisa re.
>> 
>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea. Ibat
>> adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam prendit luxu.
>> Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture limo ni bos. Emittit
>> suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque mihique.
>> 
>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha Man,
>> Usenet]
> 
> WTF is that? dutch?

Latin.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:15:50 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:

> begin  C:\AUX Edwin wrote:
> 
> < snip > 
> 
>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
>> follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
>> that way.
> 
> It is a bug. 

No it's not.   A bug is not intentionally coded behavior, as I said above.

> It should adhere to some standard, which would be coded as
> 
> begin 654 some_Attachment
> 
> Actual Attachment
> 
> end
> 
> Just loooking for 
> 
> begin  some_Attachment
> 
> without actually looking for a matching 
> 
> end
> 
> is just sheer stupidity
> 
> In other words, a perfect match for MS software

It's not a bug because you don't give it your approval for the way to mark
an attachment. 

Edwin wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
> 
> 
>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>
>>>>>begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>>>>>>source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>< snip >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi flatfish
>>>>>
>>>>>Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
>>>>>And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
>>>>>fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>
>>>>... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>
>>>Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>
>>
>>at the moment, it doen't. So what?
> 
> 
> Go complain to who wrote it.
> 
> 
>>>>>
>>>>>As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
>>>>>"typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
>>>>>generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
>>>>>malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>
>>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>
>>>No, it's what I wrote above.
>>
>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
> 
> 
> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
> follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
> that way.

It's a bug.  Claim that any other newsreader has this problem.

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

Keyser Soze wrote:

> Aquila Deus wrote:
> 
>>Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
>>news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>>
>>>Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer in
>>>worthless horses, croaked:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>>>perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>>>
>>>Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
>>>fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio
>>>trabe at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule
>>>avexerat, es.
>>>
>>>Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque.
>>>Obes obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat
>>>ui anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus
>>>aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at
>>>ultor uisa re.
>>>
>>>Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea. Ibat
>>>adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam prendit
>>>luxu. Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture limo ni
>>>bos. Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque mihique.
>>>
>>>Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha
>>>Man, Usenet]
>>
>>WTF is that? dutch?
> 
> 
> It really doesn't matter what it was, you still wouldn't
> have understood it.
> 

Meaning you're a winfucktard.  Just more drivel from a loser like you.

How's ol' sweaty ballmer fucking you lately?  Hard I hope.  And hung up 
wet like the fucktard that you are.

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

GreyCloud wrote:
>> Keyser Soze wrote:
>>
>>> Aquila Deus wrote:
>>> WTF is that? dutch?
>>
>>
>> It really doesn't matter what it was, you still wouldn't
>> have understood it.
>>
>
> Meaning?

DOH!

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:10 -0400, Rick wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:18 -0400, DFS wrote:
> 
>> Rick wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:14:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>>>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to
>>>>>>>>>>> insert begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:" attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>>>>>>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their
>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh
>>>>>>>> huh begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter
>>>>>>>> Kohlmann and Ralph.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't
>>>>>>> be bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure
>>>>>>> out how to sue OO.o users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical
>>>>>> again?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read the news.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I did find this bit of hysteria: "Is Microsoft Poised to Sue
>>>> OpenOffice Licensees?"
>>>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1646498,00.asp.  No word from
>>>> MS itself in the article, of course.
>>>>
>>>> You said MS is trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users (which
>>>> would include you and me).  So, where's your evidence?
>>>
>>> "Microsoft is just keeping its options open," said Tom Moore, an IP
>>> (intellectual property) litigator with the Palo Alto, Calif., firm of
>>> Tomlinson Zisko LLP. "It would be a bad PR move for them to go after
>>> OpenOffice licensees."
>>>
>>> "The language in the settlement contract in which Microsoft reserves
>>> the right to file a lawsuit against OpenOffice users is not all that
>>> unusual," concurred Yankee Group senior analyst Laura DiDio. "I
>>> believe Microsoft is hedging its bets and leaving all potential areas
>>> of redress open to the company."
>>>
>>> "That said," DiDio continued, "I do not believe Microsoft is currently
>>> constructing a strategy or scenario in the near or intermediate terms
>>> to quash OpenSource via litigation. So, while it's undeniably
>>> possible that Microsoft could sue OpenOffice users, the probability
>>> is low-at least
>>> for the next two years."
>> 
>> 
>> As I knew before I asked (but enjoyed watching you prove), this is typical
>> Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia.
> 
> You're a liar.

Not according to what you've posted so far.

>> 
>> There's not a single shred of evidence in your quotes, or in that article -
>> not one word - that supports your claim that MS is "too busy trying to
>> figure out how to sue OO.o users."
> 
> microsoft's past unethical, immoral and illegal activity, 

IOW, your bias and hatred of MS...

> plus the quotes
> above are more than enough to support my opinion.

.... taken together with opinions that say what you like to hear, namely
anything that makes MS look bad.

>> 
>> This is exactly the kind of statement that Rex Ballard makes all the time.
> 
> So what?

So "this is typical Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia."

>> 
>> Typical lying Linux liars.
> 
> 1. I am not typical.
> 2. I am not a liar.
> 3. YOU are a liar.

Denial ain't just a river.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> Path: newsdbm06.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500
> From: chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
> Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: No Linux for me. I'm buying a Mac!]
> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500
> Message-ID: <g8ujk0lnn91alhkgl3anqm3m4dai4drcmm@4ax.com>
> References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>    <cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com>    <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> <alpo12-i72.ln1@nw8000.swissptt.ch> <rbk2d.3027$Qv5.1998@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Lines: 7
> X-Trace: sv3-cOnDX4E3nItSuM6jNC74UmdunW33omLQxMQtbU5jipYPwTgzwnfYdQMlBZjdljS6pHz0LsEGAMa5Y4F!7IPnSy2jeajCzYKfP74yg+LRbIzEYJeaOyRkZWXT9Z0ePXBxs03dMXOBTS9J3Q+BOXg5Ng==
> X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
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> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
> X-Postfilter: 1.3.13
> Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1085561
> 
> begin  Edwin wrote:
> 
>>You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your 
>>current position. 
> 
> Only an idiot would use OE.

Why do you feel that way?

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:03:51 -0400, Rick wrote:

> Path: newsdbm06.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!news.glorb.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail
> From: Rick <none@none.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
> Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: No Linux for me. I'm buying a Mac!]
> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:03:51 -0400
> Lines: 14
> Message-ID: <pan.2004.09.16.21.03.51.14903@none.com>
> References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de> <cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com> <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> <alpo12-i72.ln1@nw8000.swissptt.ch> <rbk2d.3027$Qv5.1998@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> <g8ujk0lnn91alhkgl3anqm3m4dai4drcmm@4ax.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de HJ1geXbo6TZ0VqyfhNNBCAfmDwrgiCOyxlIEMmHQHtYrtdHvSq
> User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.)
> Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1085579
> 
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500, chrisv wrote:
> 
>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>> 
>>>You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your 
>>>current position. 
>> 
>> Only an idiot would use OE.
> 
> And ues, the Eddies do use IE.

Speaking of idiots, how could any reply be more exquisitely and ironically
stupid than Rick's is?

GreyCloud wrote:
> Keyser Soze wrote:
>
>> Aquila Deus wrote:
>>
>>> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
>>> news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>>>
>>>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer
>>>> in worthless horses, croaked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>>>>
>>>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
>>>> fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio
>>>> trabe at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule
>>>> avexerat, es.
>>>>
>>>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque.
>>>> Obes obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat
>>>> ui anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus
>>>> edimus aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa
>>>> exscidia, at ultor uisa re.
>>>>
>>>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea.
>>>> Ibat adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam
>>>> prendit luxu. Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla
>>>> ture limo ni bos. Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque
>>>> neuque mihique.
>>>>
>>>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha
>>>> Man, Usenet]
>>>
>>> WTF is that? dutch?
>>
>>
>> It really doesn't matter what it was, you still wouldn't
>> have understood it.
>>
>
> Meaning you're a winfucktard.

Where does it suggest that as a meaning, up there?

GreyCloud wrote:
> Keyser Soze wrote:
>
>> Aquila Deus wrote:
>>
>>> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
>>> news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>>>
>>>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer
>>>> in worthless horses, croaked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>>>>
>>>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
>>>> fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio
>>>> trabe at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule
>>>> avexerat, es.
>>>>
>>>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque.
>>>> Obes obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat
>>>> ui anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus
>>>> edimus aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa
>>>> exscidia, at ultor uisa re.
>>>>
>>>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea.
>>>> Ibat adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam
>>>> prendit luxu. Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla
>>>> ture limo ni bos. Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque
>>>> neuque mihique.
>>>>
>>>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha
>>>> Man, Usenet]
>>>
>>> WTF is that? dutch?
>>
>>
>> It really doesn't matter what it was, you still wouldn't
>> have understood it.
>>
>
> Meaning you're a winfucktard.

Where does it suggest that, up there?

> Just more drivel from a loser like you.

So, you're saying you're a loser, just like me, mmm?

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:59:26 -0400, Rick wrote:

> Path: newsdbm06.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!feed1.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news-feed1.de1.concert.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail
> From: Rick <none@none.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
> Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: No Linux for me. I'm buying a Mac!]
> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:59:26 -0400
> Lines: 22
> Message-ID: <pan.2004.09.16.20.59.26.250741@none.com>
> References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de> <cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com> <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de vxpN/5tpxc5Ngj9dRWGy/w7PdIX/OG+iZlN+E5BUs76VM3wt17
> User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.)
> Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1085574
> 
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:39:31 +0000, Edwin wrote:
> 
>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>> 
>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message source.
> 
> And now everyone in COLA will see what a cretin you are.

Whatever you say, Ricky Retardo.

>> 
>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>> 
>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>> 
>> < snip >
>> 
>> Hi flatfish
> 
> ... and you prove it again. Now trundle off and go find out who flatfish
> is.

He's yo' daddy.

GreyCloud wrote:
> Keyser Soze wrote:
>
>> Aquila Deus wrote:
>>
>>> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
>>> news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>>>
>>>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer
>>>> in worthless horses, croaked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>>>>
>>>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
>>>> fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio
>>>> trabe at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule
>>>> avexerat, es.
>>>>
>>>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque.
>>>> Obes obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat
>>>> ui anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus
>>>> edimus aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa
>>>> exscidia, at ultor uisa re.
>>>>
>>>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea.
>>>> Ibat adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam
>>>> prendit luxu. Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla
>>>> ture limo ni bos. Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque
>>>> neuque mihique.
>>>>
>>>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha
>>>> Man, Usenet]
>>>
>>> WTF is that? dutch?
>>
>>
>> It really doesn't matter what it was, you still wouldn't
>> have understood it.
>>
>
> Meaning you're a winfucktard.

Where does it suggest that, up there?

> Just more drivel from a loser like you.

So, you're saying you're a loser, just like me, mmm?

> How's ol' sweaty ballmer fucking you lately?  Hard I hope.  And hung
> up wet like the fucktard that you are.

I've upset you again, haven't I, mmm?

GreyCloud wrote:
<not a lot>

How did you get on with Sandy Cox in the end,
did she mail you?

GreyCloud wrote:
<snipped chatterings of a demented rodent>

Still pissed, huh, at the way I've defamed you on Usenet?

<grinning my face off>

Keyser Soze wrote:
> GreyCloud wrote:
> <not a lot>
>
> How did you get on with Sandy Cox in the end,
> did she mail you?

"in the end"  Heh!

(Sandy is a drag queen.) 

Keyser Soze wrote:
> GreyCloud wrote:
> <snipped chatterings of a demented rodent>

http://timestudies.skylab.org/crazy-zimone.jpg

GreyCloud wrote:
<overemotional babblings of a lost linuxfuck snipped>

Won't the linuxfux play with you in COLA?

Keyser Soze wrote:
> GreyCloud wrote:
> <overemotional babblings of a lost linuxfuck snipped>
>
> Won't the linuxfux play with you in COLA?

Intoduce him to DanielEKFA.

Caesar wrote:
> Keyser Soze wrote:
>> GreyCloud wrote:
>> <snipped chatterings of a demented rodent>
>
> http://timestudies.skylab.org/crazy-zimone.jpg

<FBG> The tongue, that gayclown alright.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

> Path: newssvr16.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.bresnan.com!news.bresnan.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:03:55 -0500
> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600
> From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1
> X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
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> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
> Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: The "begin bug" is a bug]
> References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de> <cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com> <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> <cicda9$njl$02$1@news.t-online.com> <%Zj2d.3018$Qv5.2027@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> <pan.2004.09.16.21.00.47.34955@none.com> <xx4fga8yw9im$.lj19zdinivsw$.dlg@40tude.net> <pan.2004.09.16.22.11.55.395140@none.com> <vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net>
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> Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1086083
> 
> 
> 
> Edwin wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>>>>>>>source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>< snip >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi flatfish
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
>>>>>>And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
>>>>>>fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>
>>>>>... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>
>>>>Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>
>>>
>>>at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>> 
>> 
>> Go complain to who wrote it.
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
>>>>>>"typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
>>>>>>generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
>>>>>>malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>
>>>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>
>>>>No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>
>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>> 
>> 
>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
>> follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
>> that way.
> 
> It's a bug.  

Reread above.

> Claim that any other newsreader has this problem.

Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to make it a
problem.

Caesar wrote:
> Keyser Soze wrote:
>> GreyCloud wrote:
>> <not a lot>
>>
>> How did you get on with Sandy Cox in the end,
>> did she mail you?
>
> "in the end"  Heh!

PMSL
Well spotted [ignore the connotation there]

> (Sandy is a drag queen.)

Maybe she was, maybe, she was.

Caesar wrote:
> Keyser Soze wrote:
>> GreyCloud wrote:
>> <overemotional babblings of a lost linuxfuck snipped>
>>
>> Won't the linuxfux play with you in COLA?
>
> Intoduce him to DanielEKFA.

Now, that would be fucking funny; two
linuxthickshits fused together in harmony.

Having said that, none of the linuxfux want
to know gayclown, so I'm not hopeful of
them getting together.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:54:30 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:10 -0400, Rick wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:18 -0400, DFS wrote:
>> 
>>> Rick wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:14:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to
>>>>>>>>>>>> insert begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon Kristiansen
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:" attributation generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered by a
>>>>>>>>>>>> "typo," but simply people making malicious use of their
>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis huh
>>>>>>>>> huh begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter
>>>>>>>>> Kohlmann and Ralph.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$ can't
>>>>>>>> be bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to figure
>>>>>>>> out how to sue OO.o users.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical
>>>>>>> again?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read the news.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did find this bit of hysteria: "Is Microsoft Poised to Sue
>>>>> OpenOffice Licensees?"
>>>>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1646498,00.asp.  No word from
>>>>> MS itself in the article, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> You said MS is trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users (which
>>>>> would include you and me).  So, where's your evidence?
>>>>
>>>> "Microsoft is just keeping its options open," said Tom Moore, an IP
>>>> (intellectual property) litigator with the Palo Alto, Calif., firm of
>>>> Tomlinson Zisko LLP. "It would be a bad PR move for them to go after
>>>> OpenOffice licensees."
>>>>
>>>> "The language in the settlement contract in which Microsoft reserves
>>>> the right to file a lawsuit against OpenOffice users is not all that
>>>> unusual," concurred Yankee Group senior analyst Laura DiDio. "I
>>>> believe Microsoft is hedging its bets and leaving all potential areas
>>>> of redress open to the company."
>>>>
>>>> "That said," DiDio continued, "I do not believe Microsoft is currently
>>>> constructing a strategy or scenario in the near or intermediate terms
>>>> to quash OpenSource via litigation. So, while it's undeniably
>>>> possible that Microsoft could sue OpenOffice users, the probability
>>>> is low-at least
>>>> for the next two years."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As I knew before I asked (but enjoyed watching you prove), this is typical
>>> Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia.
>> 
>> You're a liar.
> 
> Not according to what you've posted so far.

Give it a rest, Eddies. Go on back to CSMA.

> 
>>> 
>>> There's not a single shred of evidence in your quotes, or in that article -
>>> not one word - that supports your claim that MS is "too busy trying to
>>> figure out how to sue OO.o users."
>> 
>> microsoft's past unethical, immoral and illegal activity, 
> 
> IOW, your bias and hatred of MS...
> 
>> plus the quotes
>> above are more than enough to support my opinion.
> 
> ... taken together with opinions that say what you like to hear, namely
> anything that makes MS look bad.
> 
>>> 
>>> This is exactly the kind of statement that Rex Ballard makes all the time.
>> 
>> So what?
> 
> So "this is typical Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia."

You prove your ignorance.

> 
>>> 
>>> Typical lying Linux liars.
>> 
>> 1. I am not typical.
>> 2. I am not a liar.
>> 3. YOU are a liar.
> 
> Denial ain't just a river.

Idiot.

-- 
Rick

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:46:23 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>> 
>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>>>>>> source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>>> 
>>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
>>>>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
>>>>> fine without any additional hoopla
>>>> 
>>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>> 
>>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>
>> 
>> at the moment, it doen't. So what?
> 
> Go complain to who wrote it.
> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
>>>>> "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
>>>>> generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
>>>>> malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.
>>>> 
>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>> 
>>> No, it's what I wrote above.
>> 
>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
> 
> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
> follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
> that way.

It is designed to affect uuencoded files, not text. The other newsreaders
get it right. m$ hasn't.

-- 
Rick

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:01:13 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:03:51 -0400, Rick wrote:
> 

>> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>> 
>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>> 
>>>>You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your 
>>>>current position. 
>>> 
>>> Only an idiot would use OE.
>> 
>> And ues, the Eddies do use IE.
> 
> Speaking of idiots, how could any reply be more exquisitely and ironically
> stupid than Rick's is?

The Eddies can't do anything but criticize a typo.

-- 
Rick

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:02:40 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:59:26 -0400, Rick wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:39:31 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>> 
>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>> 
>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message source.
>> 
>> And now everyone in COLA will see what a cretin you are.
> 
> Whatever you say, Ricky Retardo.

.... and Eddie the cretin is in plain view.

> 
>>> 
>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>> 
>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>> 
>>> < snip >
>>> 
>>> Hi flatfish
>> 
>> ... and you prove it again. Now trundle off and go find out who flatfish
>> is.
> 
> He's yo' daddy.

Translation: the Eddies are too stupid to actually respond.

-- 
Rick

begin  C:\AUX Rick wrote:


< snip > 

>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
>> follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
>> that way.
> 
> It is designed to affect uuencoded files, not text. The other newsreaders
> get it right. m$ hasn't.
> 

That seems to be the reason "Wastrel" aka "Edwin" has changed his
newsreader. He now no longer posts with MS garbage
Too much of a hassle, probably

Well, at least it hasn't affected his "reasoning skills". They are still
prominent by their complete absence
-- 
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them 
to choose from.                 -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum

begin  C:\AUX Rick wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:01:13 +0000, Edwin wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:03:51 -0400, Rick wrote:
>> 
> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>>> 
>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your
>>>>>current position.
>>>> 
>>>> Only an idiot would use OE.
>>> 
>>> And ues, the Eddies do use IE.
>> 
>> Speaking of idiots, how could any reply be more exquisitely and
>> ironically stupid than Rick's is?
> 
> The Eddies can't do anything but criticize a typo.
> 
"Edwin" aka "Wastrel" is the last, most successful result in artificial
stupidity
-- 
Hardware, n.:
        The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.

begin  it was on Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:42:45 -0400, that Rick wrote this:

> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:02:40 +0000, Edwin wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:59:26 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:39:31 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>>>> source.
>>> 
>>> And now everyone in COLA will see what a cretin you are.
>> 
>> Whatever you say, Ricky Retardo.
> 
> ... and Eddie the cretin is in plain view.
> 
> 
>> 
>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>> 
>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> < snip >
>>>> 
>>>> Hi flatfish
>>> 
>>> ... and you prove it again. Now trundle off and go find out who
>>> flatfish is.
>> 
>> He's yo' daddy.
> 
> Translation: the Eddies are too stupid to actually respond.

Not very....eddifying is it! 

-- 
Installing Linux is easy, just watch
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6276

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:51:46 +0200, Peter Köhlmann wrote:

> begin  C:\AUX Rick wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:01:13 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:03:51 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your
>>>>>>current position.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Only an idiot would use OE.
>>>> 
>>>> And ues, the Eddies do use IE.
>>> 
>>> Speaking of idiots, how could any reply be more exquisitely and
>>> ironically stupid than Rick's is?
>> 
>> The Eddies can't do anything but criticize a typo.
>> 
> "Edwin" aka "Wastrel" is the last, most successful result in artificial
> stupidity

Was Edwin maquerading again? NAd his stupidity is not artificial, it seems
to be quite natural.

-- 
Rick

On 2004-09-17, Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> sputtered:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

>> It's a bug.  
>
> Reread above.
>
>> Claim that any other newsreader has this problem.
>
> Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to make it a
> problem.

Rescored.

Previously: -7171 for 40tude whatever.
  or        -8200 for MICROS~1 Outhouse Excess
Currently:  -9999 for being obtuse.

There are a couple of others down there with you now. Say hi to Relf,
Bailo, SCOoke, Kadachadda Kiddie, etc.

-- 
SirCam - Innovative Microsoft peer-to-peer software.

On 2004-09-17, Peter K�hlmann <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> sputtered:
> begin  C:\AUX Rick wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:01:13 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:03:51 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:03 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>You also had to snip and ignore what I wrote in order to preserve your
>>>>>>current position.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Only an idiot would use OE.
>>>> 
>>>> And ues, the Eddies do use IE.
>>> 
>>> Speaking of idiots, how could any reply be more exquisitely and
>>> ironically stupid than Rick's is?
>> 
>> The Eddies can't do anything but criticize a typo.
>> 
> "Edwin" aka "Wastrel" is the last, most successful result in artificial
> stupidity

It was still a failure. They couldn't have proved any success for
artificial stupidity. It was crowded out by the real thing.

-- 
How dare the government intervene to stifle innovation in the computer
industry! That's Microsoft's job, dammit!

begin  <5f303kw5dgr7$.23nakdbl9h7c$.dlg@40tude.net>,
	Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:15:50 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:
> 
>> It is a bug. 
> 
> No it's not.  A bug is not intentionally coded behavior, as I said
> above.

Here's a link, one of many, that simply explains the format of
uuencoded data:

http://www.mkssoftware.com/docs/man4/uuencode.4.asp

There is also the uuencode[5] man page. Now show me any link for
uuencode that says 'begin  text' indicates start of uuencode data?
Whether the windows programmer who implemented it misread the spec
or just coded it badly is irrelevant. It is a bug. MS cannot be
bothered to fix it. Their 'workaround' is just pathetic:

<http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=265230>

    WORKAROUND
    To workaround this problem:

    * Do not start messages with the word "begin" followed by two
      spaces.
    * Use only one space between the word "begin" and the following
      data.
    * Capitalize the word "begin" so that it is reads "Begin."
    * Use a different word such as "start" or "commence."

Now lets say you received an important email which had a line which
started 'begin '. I've already posted an article on how this can
happen. So you reply to the sender with the MS 'workaround' and ask
them to resend the email with the offending 'begin ' changed to not
trigger the bug. You are going to look like a real prat to the sender
in the same way you look like a real prat on COLA.

Edwin wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:
> 
> 
>>Path: newssvr16.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.bresnan.com!news.bresnan.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:03:55 -0500
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600
>>From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>
>>User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1
>>X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
>>Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: The "begin bug" is a bug]
>>References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de> <cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com> <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> <cicda9$njl$02$1@news.t-online.com> <%Zj2d.3018$Qv5.2027@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> <pan.2004.09.16.21.00.47.34955@none.com> <xx4fga8yw9im$.lj19zdinivsw$.dlg@40tude.net> <pan.2004.09.16.22.11.55.395140@none.com> <vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net>
>>In-Reply-To: <vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>Message-ID: <TdGdnSs5ZfemzNbcRVn-rQ@bresnan.com>
>>Lines: 75
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.144.40.200
>>X-Trace: sv3-tENB7JK2OnedFOv09ABxhXNUkUQC4Ffz8O0og8wyotW7qTAMZGx4qZ+OzWZqi6aV6DSEuwhcTa6bIjL!SOSTl8ON/OrxPmfLYrt/2aJKGC3v79JoNHpgQT4nwVUQe64t8Fnc20GlBbX1xGH71SWim3J++8I=
>>X-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
>>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
>>X-Postfilter: 1.3.13
>>Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1086083
>>
>>
>>
>>Edwin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the message
>>>>>>>>source.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>< snip >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi flatfish
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>>Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this already
>>>>>>>And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the messages just
>>>>>>>fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>>
>>>>>>... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>>
>>>>>Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>>
>>>
>>>Go complain to who wrote it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug" triggered by a 
>>>>>>>"typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two spaces ahead of the attribution 
>>>>>>>generated by the news reader.  This is nothing more than you making 
>>>>>>>malicious use of your knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>>
>>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>
>>>
>>>No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
>>>follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
>>>that way.
>>
>>It's a bug.  
> 
> 
> Reread above.
> 
> 
>>Claim that any other newsreader has this problem.
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to make it a
> problem.

So?  It's still a bug.  Matter of fact, OE 6 is the only one that screws 
it up.

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

Keyser Soze wrote:

> GreyCloud wrote:
> <overemotional babblings of a lost linuxfuck snipped>
> 
> Won't the linuxfux play with you in COLA?
> 
> 

Gee, look at all your responses... now that was a good troll on you.

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

Rick wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:46:23 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>> message source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the
>>>>>> messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>
>>>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>
>>>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>
>>>
>>> at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>
>> Go complain to who wrote it.
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>> triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>> spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news reader.
>>>>>> This is nothing more than you making malicious use of your
>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>
>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>
>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>> designed to work that way.
>
> It is designed to affect uuencoded files, not text. The other
> newsreaders get it right. m$ hasn't.

Last time I looked uuencoded file were text,   it just depends on if the
newsreader checks to see if it a valid attachment,  OE assume the turkey is
sending a file,  and most of the rest check it if the idiot screwed up.

Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> wrote in message news:<mnst0qqtb4fg$.9v3ndjderi62$.dlg@40tude.net>...
> On 17 Sep 2004 11:41:40 -0700, Aquila Deus wrote:
> 
> > Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
> >> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer in
> >> worthless horses, croaked:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
> >>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
> >> 
> >> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci fixerit es
> >> eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio trabe at aliorsum nil
> >> ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule avexerat, es.
> >> 
> >> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque. Obes
> >> obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat ui anaque
> >> faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus aemulantium.
> >> Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at ultor uisa re.
> >> 
> >> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea. Ibat
> >> adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam prendit luxu.
> >> Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture limo ni bos. Emittit
> >> suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque mihique.
> >> 
> >> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha Man,
> >> Usenet]
> > 
> > WTF is that? dutch?
> 
> Latin.

No, it's not latin, french, german, italian, portuguese, spanish, or esperanto.

GreyCloud wrote:
<Acknowledgement of a good Troll by the lost linuxfuck, snipped>

And you wonder why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA?

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Roy Culley:

> begin  <5f303kw5dgr7$.23nakdbl9h7c$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> 	Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>
> http://www.mkssoftware.com/docs/man4/uuencode.4.asp
>
> <http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=265230>
>
>     WORKAROUND     To workaround this problem:
>
>     * Do not start messages with the word "begin" followed by two
>       spaces.
>     * Use only one space between the word "begin" and the following
>       data.
>     * Capitalize the word "begin" so that it is reads "Begin."
>     * Use a different word such as "start" or "commence."

I can't be arsed to check out the specs for attachments, but my Inbox
shows that message parts are demarcated in a special way:

   ------_=_NextPart_001_01C47E04.7C5A0851
   Content-Type: text/plain;
      charset="iso-8859-1"
      Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And those frickin' messages sent from Microsoft mailers have another
feature to indicate that a message has attachments:

   X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0
   X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
   X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:

So basically, Microsoft programmers can't even be bothered to check
for their own X tags.  Or maybe they simply rely on checking the
value of "X-MS-Has-Attach".

Idiots.

I thought Microsoft hired only smart people?

I now think that Microsoft hires only people who talk a good story with
perfect-seeming confidence.

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

Rick wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:54:30 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:10 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:18 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:14:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> insert begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kristiansen wrote:" attributation generated by the news
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by a "typo," but simply people making malicious use of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis
>>>>>>>>>> huh huh begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter
>>>>>>>>>> Kohlmann and Ralph.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$
>>>>>>>>> can't be bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to
>>>>>>>>> figure out how to sue OO.o users.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical
>>>>>>>> again?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read the news.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did find this bit of hysteria: "Is Microsoft Poised to Sue
>>>>>> OpenOffice Licensees?"
>>>>>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1646498,00.asp.  No word
>>>>>> from MS itself in the article, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You said MS is trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users (which
>>>>>> would include you and me).  So, where's your evidence?
>>>>>
>>>>> "Microsoft is just keeping its options open," said Tom Moore, an
>>>>> IP (intellectual property) litigator with the Palo Alto, Calif.,
>>>>> firm of Tomlinson Zisko LLP. "It would be a bad PR move for them
>>>>> to go after OpenOffice licensees."
>>>>>
>>>>> "The language in the settlement contract in which Microsoft
>>>>> reserves the right to file a lawsuit against OpenOffice users is
>>>>> not all that unusual," concurred Yankee Group senior analyst
>>>>> Laura DiDio. "I believe Microsoft is hedging its bets and leaving
>>>>> all potential areas of redress open to the company."
>>>>>
>>>>> "That said," DiDio continued, "I do not believe Microsoft is
>>>>> currently constructing a strategy or scenario in the near or
>>>>> intermediate terms to quash OpenSource via litigation. So, while
>>>>> it's undeniably possible that Microsoft could sue OpenOffice
>>>>> users, the probability is low-at least
>>>>> for the next two years."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I knew before I asked (but enjoyed watching you prove), this is
>>>> typical Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia.
>>>
>>> You're a liar.
>>
>> Not according to what you've posted so far.
>
> Give it a rest, Eddies. Go on back to CSMA.

Tacit agreement.

>>
>>>>
>>>> There's not a single shred of evidence in your quotes, or in that
>>>> article - not one word - that supports your claim that MS is "too
>>>> busy trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users."
>>>
>>> microsoft's past unethical, immoral and illegal activity,
>>
>> IOW, your bias and hatred of MS...
>>
>>> plus the quotes
>>> above are more than enough to support my opinion.
>>
>> ... taken together with opinions that say what you like to hear,
>> namely anything that makes MS look bad.
>>
>>>>
>>>> This is exactly the kind of statement that Rex Ballard makes all
>>>> the time.
>>>
>>> So what?
>>
>> So "this is typical Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia."
>
> You prove your ignorance.

Back that empty claim up.   Show how I "prove my ignorance."

>>
>>>>
>>>> Typical lying Linux liars.
>>>
>>> 1. I am not typical.
>>> 2. I am not a liar.
>>> 3. YOU are a liar.
>>
>> Denial ain't just a river.
>
> Idiot.

Yes you are.   Are you still going around pretending to be a high school 
teacher, Rick?   I ask for information only. 

GreyCloud wrote:
> Edwin wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Path:
>>> newssvr16.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.bresnan.com!news.bresnan.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
>>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:03:55 -0500
>>> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600
>>> From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>
>>> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US;
>>> rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
>>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>>> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
>>> Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: The "begin bug"
>>> is a bug] References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>
>>> <cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com>
>>> <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
>>> <cicda9$njl$02$1@news.t-online.com>
>>> <%Zj2d.3018$Qv5.2027@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
>>> <pan.2004.09.16.21.00.47.34955@none.com>
>>> <xx4fga8yw9im$.lj19zdinivsw$.dlg@40tude.net>
>>> <pan.2004.09.16.22.11.55.395140@none.com>
>>> <vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net> In-Reply-To:
>>> <vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net>        Content-Type: 
>>> text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>> Message-ID: <TdGdnSs5ZfemzNbcRVn-rQ@bresnan.com>
>>> Lines: 75
>>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.144.40.200
>>> X-Trace:
>>> sv3-tENB7JK2OnedFOv09ABxhXNUkUQC4Ffz8O0og8wyotW7qTAMZGx4qZ+OzWZqi6aV6DSEuwhcTa6bIjL!SOSTl8ON/OrxPmfLYrt/2aJKGC3v79JoNHpgQT4nwVUQe64t8Fnc20GlBbX1xGH71SWim3J++8I=
>>> X-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>> X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL
>>> headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process 
>>> your
>>> complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13
>>> Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1086083
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>>>> message source.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>>>> already And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the
>>>>>>>> messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Go complain to who wrote it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>>>> triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>>>> spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news reader. This 
>>>>>>>> is nothing more than you making malicious use of your
>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>>> designed to work that way.
>>>
>>> It's a bug.
>>
>>
>> Reread above.
>>
>>
>>> Claim that any other newsreader has this problem.
>>
>>
>> Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to
>> make it a problem.
>
> So?  It's still a bug.  Matter of fact, OE 6 is the only one that
> screws it up.

Since you're unable to reread above, I'll have to paste in the reply I 
already made to that, below:

No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
that way.

Recite the following as many times as it takes for it to sink in:

A bug is not deliberately coded behavior.

A bug is not a program doing what it was designed to do.

Rick wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:46:23 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>> message source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the
>>>>>> messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>
>>>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>
>>>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>
>>>
>>> at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>
>> Go complain to who wrote it.
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>> triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>> spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news reader.
>>>>>> This is nothing more than you making malicious use of your
>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>
>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>
>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>> designed to work that way.
>
> It is designed to affect uuencoded files, not text. The other
> newsreaders get it right. m$ hasn't.

It's still not a bug, regardless of your opinion on who "got it right." 

Aquila Deus wrote:
> Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:<mnst0qqtb4fg$.9v3ndjderi62$.dlg@40tude.net>...
>> On 17 Sep 2004 11:41:40 -0700, Aquila Deus wrote:
>>
>>> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
>>> news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>>>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer
>>>> in worthless horses, croaked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>>>>
>>>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
>>>> fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio
>>>> trabe at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule
>>>> avexerat, es.
>>>>
>>>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque.
>>>> Obes obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis,
>>>> orat ui anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus
>>>> edimus aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa
>>>> exscidia, at ultor uisa re.
>>>>
>>>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea.
>>>> Ibat adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam
>>>> prendit luxu. Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla
>>>> ture limo ni bos. Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque
>>>> neuque mihique.
>>>>
>>>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha
>>>> Man, Usenet]
>>>
>>> WTF is that? dutch?
>>
>> Latin.
>
> No, it's not latin, french, german, italian, portuguese, spanish, or
> esperanto.

It's Berserker IV. 

relic, the indiscrete, mad-bred clam, and supplier or maker of clothing and
equipment for drag queens, ummed and arred:
> Aquila Deus wrote:
>> Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> wrote in message
>> news:<mnst0qqtb4fg$.9v3ndjderi62$.dlg@40tude.net>...
>>> On 17 Sep 2004 11:41:40 -0700, Aquila Deus wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>>>>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer in
>>>>> worthless horses, croaked:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>>>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>>>>>
>>>>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
>>>>> fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio trabe
>>>>> at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule avexerat,
>>>>> es.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque. Obes
>>>>> obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat ui
>>>>> anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus
>>>>> aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at
>>>>> ultor uisa re.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea. Ibat
>>>>> adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam prendit luxu.
>>>>> Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture limo ni bos.
>>>>> Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque mihique.
>>>>>
>>>>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha Man,
>>>>> Usenet]
>>>>
>>>> WTF is that? dutch?
>>>
>>> Latin.
>>
>> No, it's not latin, french, german, italian, portuguese, spanish, or
>> esperanto.
>
> It's Berserker IV.

It is also Latin. The fuckwit chink doesn't know any better.

> Exigat adnuis, orat ui anaque faciebam pi

Nod assent to drive out the prayer to make pie. 
--  Dinner tonight is raw
cadaver foreskins and viper droppings conserve next to dried earwax balls
and lemon topping, cooked in a circulating pannikin with a slew of rare
squares of parsnip and cooked artichoke in dressing, a side of pastries and
a can of pus.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:56:25 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> Rick wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:46:23 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>>> message source.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the
>>>>>>> messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>>
>>> Go complain to who wrote it.
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>>> triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>>> spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>> This is nothing more than you making malicious use of your
>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>>
>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>
>>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>> designed to work that way.
>>
>> It is designed to affect uuencoded files, not text. The other
>> newsreaders get it right. m$ hasn't.
> 
> It's still not a bug, regardless of your opinion on who "got it right."

Well thanks for acknowledging that micro$oft didn't write their newsreader
code correctly, and refuses to fix it.

-- 
Rick

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:51:02 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> Rick wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:54:30 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:10 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:18 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:14:05 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:15 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:30:03 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roy Culley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can see that to invoke this so-called "bug," he had to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insert begin, and two spaces, ahead of the "Sharon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kristiansen wrote:" attributation generated by the news
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In short, the "begin bug" is not a bug which is triggered
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by a "typo," but simply people making malicious use of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's just a few little cola boys that do it: William "Beavis
>>>>>>>>>>> huh huh begin huh huh" Poaster, Roy Culley (sometimes), Peter
>>>>>>>>>>> Kohlmann and Ralph.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ... and its all sotck OE users that are effected because m$
>>>>>>>>>> can't be bothered to fix the bug. They are too busy trying to
>>>>>>>>>> figure out how to sue OO.o users.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are they?  I wasn't aware.  Or are you just getting hysterical
>>>>>>>>> again?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Read the news.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did find this bit of hysteria: "Is Microsoft Poised to Sue
>>>>>>> OpenOffice Licensees?"
>>>>>>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1646498,00.asp.  No word
>>>>>>> from MS itself in the article, of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You said MS is trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users (which
>>>>>>> would include you and me).  So, where's your evidence?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Microsoft is just keeping its options open," said Tom Moore, an
>>>>>> IP (intellectual property) litigator with the Palo Alto, Calif.,
>>>>>> firm of Tomlinson Zisko LLP. "It would be a bad PR move for them
>>>>>> to go after OpenOffice licensees."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The language in the settlement contract in which Microsoft
>>>>>> reserves the right to file a lawsuit against OpenOffice users is
>>>>>> not all that unusual," concurred Yankee Group senior analyst
>>>>>> Laura DiDio. "I believe Microsoft is hedging its bets and leaving
>>>>>> all potential areas of redress open to the company."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "That said," DiDio continued, "I do not believe Microsoft is
>>>>>> currently constructing a strategy or scenario in the near or
>>>>>> intermediate terms to quash OpenSource via litigation. So, while
>>>>>> it's undeniably possible that Microsoft could sue OpenOffice
>>>>>> users, the probability is low-at least
>>>>>> for the next two years."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I knew before I asked (but enjoyed watching you prove), this is
>>>>> typical Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia.
>>>>
>>>> You're a liar.
>>>
>>> Not according to what you've posted so far.
>>
>> Give it a rest, Eddies. Go on back to CSMA.
> 
> Tacit agreement.

No, there is no agree. There is only yout dishonest attempt to show an
agreement.. your desparate need for an agreement.

> 
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There's not a single shred of evidence in your quotes, or in that
>>>>> article - not one word - that supports your claim that MS is "too
>>>>> busy trying to figure out how to sue OO.o users."
>>>>
>>>> microsoft's past unethical, immoral and illegal activity,
>>>
>>> IOW, your bias and hatred of MS...
>>>
>>>> plus the quotes
>>>> above are more than enough to support my opinion.
>>>
>>> ... taken together with opinions that say what you like to hear,
>>> namely anything that makes MS look bad.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is exactly the kind of statement that Rex Ballard makes all
>>>>> the time.
>>>>
>>>> So what?
>>>
>>> So "this is typical Linux nutcase hysteria and paranoia."
>>
>> You prove your ignorance.
> 
> Back that empty claim up.   Show how I "prove my ignorance."

You just did. You statement that "this is typical Linux nutcase hysteria
and paranoia" show your ignorance.

> 
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Typical lying Linux liars.
>>>>
>>>> 1. I am not typical.
>>>> 2. I am not a liar.
>>>> 3. YOU are a liar.
>>>
>>> Denial ain't just a river.
>>
>> Idiot.
> 
> Yes you are.   Are you still going around pretending to be a high school 
> teacher, Rick?   I ask for information only.

No you don't. You 'ask' because you are a lying asshole. And, for you
information, I do teach high school. I guess, you are just jealous becasue
of you failure to complete elementary school.

-- 
Rick

Edwin wrote:

> GreyCloud wrote:
> 
>>Edwin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Path:
>>>>newssvr16.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.bresnan.com!news.bresnan.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
>>>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:03:55 -0500
>>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600
>>>>From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>
>>>>User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US;
>>>>rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
>>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>>Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
>>>>Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: The "begin bug"
>>>>is a bug] References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>
>>>><cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com>
>>>><Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
>>>><cicda9$njl$02$1@news.t-online.com>
>>>><%Zj2d.3018$Qv5.2027@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
>>>><pan.2004.09.16.21.00.47.34955@none.com>
>>>><xx4fga8yw9im$.lj19zdinivsw$.dlg@40tude.net>
>>>><pan.2004.09.16.22.11.55.395140@none.com>
>>>><vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net> In-Reply-To:
>>>><vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net>        Content-Type: 
>>>>text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>>Message-ID: <TdGdnSs5ZfemzNbcRVn-rQ@bresnan.com>
>>>>Lines: 75
>>>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.144.40.200
>>>>X-Trace:
>>>>sv3-tENB7JK2OnedFOv09ABxhXNUkUQC4Ffz8O0og8wyotW7qTAMZGx4qZ+OzWZqi6aV6DSEuwhcTa6bIjL!SOSTl8ON/OrxPmfLYrt/2aJKGC3v79JoNHpgQT4nwVUQe64t8Fnc20GlBbX1xGH71SWim3J++8I=
>>>>X-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>>>X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>>>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL
>>>>headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process 
>>>>your
>>>>complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13
>>>>Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1086083
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Edwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>>>>>message source.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>< snip >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Hi flatfish
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>>>>Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>>>>>already And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the
>>>>>>>>>messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Go complain to who wrote it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>>>>>triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>>>>>spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news reader. This 
>>>>>>>>>is nothing more than you making malicious use of your
>>>>>>>>>knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>>>>what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>>>>designed to work that way.
>>>>
>>>>It's a bug.
>>>
>>>
>>>Reread above.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Claim that any other newsreader has this problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to
>>>make it a problem.
>>
>>So?  It's still a bug.  Matter of fact, OE 6 is the only one that
>>screws it up.
> 
> 
> Since you're unable to reread above, I'll have to paste in the reply I 
> already made to that, below:
> 
> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
> follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
> that way.
> 
> Recite the following as many times as it takes for it to sink in:
> 
> A bug is not deliberately coded behavior.
> 
> A bug is not a program doing what it was designed to do.
> 

Then why is the reserved word 'begin' in its repertoire?  If it is to be 
used properly there should also be a syntax checker built in to let you 
know if there is a misuseage of begin or any other of its reserved 
words.  At least you should be able to look at what was sent to debug 
what was sent.  In this case the info just disappears... either its a 
bug or poorly designed.


-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

Keyser Soze wrote:

> GreyCloud wrote:
> <Acknowledgement of a good Troll by the lost linuxfuck, snipped>
> 
> And you wonder why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA?
> 

That's just your perception.  Is it because there is no response that I 
am correct?  Maybe you can't see the obvious.

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

"Rick" <none@none.com> wrote in message 
news:pan.2004.09.18.17.07.55.718183@none.com...
> On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:56:25 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>
>> Rick wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:46:23 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>>>> message source.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the
>>>>>>>> messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>>>
>>>> Go complain to who wrote it.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>>>> triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>>>> spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>>> This is nothing more than you making malicious use of your
>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>>> designed to work that way.
>>>
>>> It is designed to affect uuencoded files, not text. The other
>>> newsreaders get it right. m$ hasn't.
>>
>> It's still not a bug, regardless of your opinion on who "got it right."
>
> Well thanks for acknowledging that micro$oft didn't write their newsreader
> code correctly, and refuses to fix it.

Point out where I acknowledged any such thing. 

begin  On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:

<whine, whine, blah, blah, whine>

You're a stupid idiot.

-- 
Windoze XP, now with eXtra Problems!
Shaftware Pack2. 
"What don't you want to work tomorrow?" 

GreyCloud wrote:
> Keyser Soze wrote:
>
>> GreyCloud wrote:
>> <Acknowledgement of a good Troll by the lost linuxfuck, snipped>
>>
>> And you wonder why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA?
>>
>
> That's just your perception.

It's easy to recognise "why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA"

> Is it because there is no response that I am correct?

"there is no response that I am correct?" Spot on.

> Maybe

Isn't doubt a bitch for you, eh?

--
DAB sounds better than FM, Freeview, digital satellite, cable and
broadband internet radio
GreyCloud wrote:
> Keyser Soze wrote:
>
>> GreyCloud wrote:
>> <Acknowledgement of a good Troll by the lost linuxfuck, snipped>
>>
>> And you wonder why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA?
>>
>
> That's just your perception.  Is it because there is no response that
> I am correct?  Maybe you can't see the obvious.
Ur allways rong.

Rayzor, the crack-headed, self-aggrandising salad tosser and dealer in used
Arab's underpants, spilled the beans:

|| Keyser Soze wrote:
||
||| GreyCloud wrote:
||| <Acknowledgement of a good Troll by the lost linuxfuck, snipped>
|||
||| And you wonder why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA?
|||
||
|| That's just your perception.  Is it because there is no response that
|| I am correct?  Maybe you can't see the obvious.
| Ur allways rong.

Guffaw!

-- 
For my own part, I have never had a thought which I could not set down
in words with even more distinctness than that with which I conceived
it. There is, however, a class of fancies of exquisite delicacy which
are not thoughts, and to which as yet I have found it absolutely
impossible to adapt to language. These fancies arise in the soul, alas
how rarely. Only at epochs of most intense tranquillity, when the
bodily and mental health are in perfection. And at those weird points
of time, where the confines of the waking world blend with the world of
dreams. And so I captured this fancy, where all that we see, or seem,
is but a dream within a dream.

GreyCloud wrote:
> Edwin wrote:
>
>> GreyCloud wrote:
>>
>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Path:
>>>>>
newssvr16.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodig
y.com!prodigy.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nn
tp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!loc
al1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.bresnan.com!news.bresnan.com.POSTED!not-for-m
ail
>>>>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:03:55 -0500
>>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600
>>>>> From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>
>>>>> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US;
>>>>> rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
>>>>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>>> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
>>>>> Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: The "begin
>>>>> bug" is a bug] References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>
>>>>> <cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com>
>>>>> <Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
>>>>> <cicda9$njl$02$1@news.t-online.com>
>>>>> <%Zj2d.3018$Qv5.2027@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
>>>>> <pan.2004.09.16.21.00.47.34955@none.com>
>>>>> <xx4fga8yw9im$.lj19zdinivsw$.dlg@40tude.net>
>>>>> <pan.2004.09.16.22.11.55.395140@none.com>
>>>>> <vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net> In-Reply-To:
>>>>> <vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net>        Content-Type:
>>>>> text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>>> Message-ID: <TdGdnSs5ZfemzNbcRVn-rQ@bresnan.com>
>>>>> Lines: 75
>>>>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.144.40.200
>>>>> X-Trace:
>>>>>
sv3-tENB7JK2OnedFOv09ABxhXNUkUQC4Ffz8O0og8wyotW7qTAMZGx4qZ+OzWZqi6aV6DSEuwhc
Ta6bIjL!SOSTl8ON/OrxPmfLYrt/2aJKGC3v79JoNHpgQT4nwVUQe64t8Fnc20GlBbX1xGH71SWi
m3J++8I=
>>>>> X-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>>>> X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>>>> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL
>>>>> headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to
>>>>> process your
>>>>> complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13
>>>>> Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1086083
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Edwin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>>>>>> message source.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>>>>>> already And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can
>>>>>>>>>> read the messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Go complain to who wrote it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>>>>>> triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>>>>>> spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news
>>>>>>>>>> reader. This is nothing more than you making malicious use
>>>>>>>>>> of your
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>>>>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>>>>> designed to work that way.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a bug.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reread above.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Claim that any other newsreader has this problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to
>>>> make it a problem.
>>>
>>> So?  It's still a bug.  Matter of fact, OE 6 is the only one that
>>> screws it up.
>>
>>
>> Since you're unable to reread above, I'll have to paste in the reply
>> I already made to that, below:
>>
>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>> designed to work that way.
>>
>> Recite the following as many times as it takes for it to sink in:
>>
>> A bug is not deliberately coded behavior.
>>
>> A bug is not a program doing what it was designed to do.
>>
>
> Then why is the reserved word 'begin' in its repertoire?  If it is to
> be used properly there should also be a syntax checker built in to
> let you know if there is a misuseage of begin or any other of its
> reserved words.  At least you should be able to look at what was sent
> to debug what was sent.  In this case the info just disappears...
> either its a bug or poorly designed.

Not all binary posting will have a END as the last line,  if it a multipart
posting,  the END is only in the last message.   The misusage is the people
use 'begin  ' at in the messages and not the news reader program.   I
wouldn't say it was poorly designed,  just short sighted,  but the people
exploit the problem is just as bad.   I read alot of newsgroups,  and the
exploit ONLY occurs in LINUX newsgroups.    I find that funny,  since Linux
users seem to want Windows users to switch,  but all it does it turn off
Windows users.   It makes Linux look like people who want to Exclude instead
of include others.....

begin  C:\AUX Quantum Leaper wrote:

< snip a lot of garbage. OE users seem to stupid to do so > 

> Not all binary posting will have a END as the last line,  if it a
> multipart
> posting,  the END is only in the last message.   The misusage is the
> people
> use 'begin  ' at in the messages and not the news reader program.   

So you claim that MS codd it somewhat right?
Tell us, why then would MS itself advise how not to post, i.e do not start a
line with... and other idiotic claptrap?
Could it mean that OE does *not* get it right? You bet it does

> I wouldn't say it was poorly designed, just short sighted,  but the people
> exploit the problem is just as bad.   

No. It was extremely poor design. Tell us, why does every other newsreader
handle it correctly, just OE does not? You call that "short sighted"?

> I read alot of newsgroups,  and the 
> exploit ONLY occurs in LINUX newsgroups. 

Well, it would be kind of counterproductive in windows groups, wouldn't it?
Because thats where you find even more of those dimwits who still use OE

> I find that funny,  since 
> Linux
> users seem to want Windows users to switch,  but all it does it turn off
> Windows users.   It makes Linux look like people who want to Exclude
> instead of include others.....

No. It makes linux *users* look like people who do not take it lightly when
their groups are invaded by OE using cretins. Those people who actually are
oxygen thieves. I certainly do not want to have a Kerke, a Mike Cox, DFS or
other assorted slime calling themselves "linux users". *That* would make
look linux users (not linux) look like retarded bricks. Much better they
stay on windows.
-- 
Law of Probable Dispersal:
Whatever it is that hits the fan will not be evenly distributed.

Quantum Leaper wrote:

> GreyCloud wrote:
> 
>>Edwin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>GreyCloud wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Edwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Path:
>>>>>>
> 
> newssvr16.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodig
> y.com!prodigy.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nn
> tp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!loc
> al1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.bresnan.com!news.bresnan.com.POSTED!not-for-m
> ail
> 
>>>>>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:03:55 -0500
>>>>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:06:11 -0600
>>>>>>From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>
>>>>>>User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US;
>>>>>>rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
>>>>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>>>>Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
>>>>>>Subject: Re: The "begin bug" is not a bug  [was Re: The "begin
>>>>>>bug" is a bug] References: <2q9jo5Ft61m5U1@uni-berlin.de>
>>>>>><cho5nt$v6v$02$2@news.t-online.com>
>>>>>><Tsi2d.2991$Qv5.253@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
>>>>>><cicda9$njl$02$1@news.t-online.com>
>>>>>><%Zj2d.3018$Qv5.2027@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
>>>>>><pan.2004.09.16.21.00.47.34955@none.com>
>>>>>><xx4fga8yw9im$.lj19zdinivsw$.dlg@40tude.net>
>>>>>><pan.2004.09.16.22.11.55.395140@none.com>
>>>>>><vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net> In-Reply-To:
>>>>>><vh9reb7n2em2.r6rte3rs9lea$.dlg@40tude.net>        Content-Type:
>>>>>>text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>>>>Message-ID: <TdGdnSs5ZfemzNbcRVn-rQ@bresnan.com>
>>>>>>Lines: 75
>>>>>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.144.40.200
>>>>>>X-Trace:
>>>>>>
> 
> sv3-tENB7JK2OnedFOv09ABxhXNUkUQC4Ffz8O0og8wyotW7qTAMZGx4qZ+OzWZqi6aV6DSEuwhc
> Ta6bIjL!SOSTl8ON/OrxPmfLYrt/2aJKGC3v79JoNHpgQT4nwVUQe64t8Fnc20GlBbX1xGH71SWi
> m3J++8I=
> 
>>>>>>X-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>>>>>X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@bresnan.net
>>>>>>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL
>>>>>>headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to
>>>>>>process your
>>>>>>complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13
>>>>>>Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1086083
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>>>>>>>message source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>< snip >
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi flatfish
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>>>>>>Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>>>>>>>already And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can
>>>>>>>>>>>read the messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Go complain to who wrote it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>>>>>>>triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>>>>>>>spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news
>>>>>>>>>>>reader. This is nothing more than you making malicious use
>>>>>>>>>>>of your
>>>>>>>>>>>knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>>>>>>what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>>>>>>designed to work that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's a bug.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Reread above.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Claim that any other newsreader has this problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to
>>>>>make it a problem.
>>>>
>>>>So?  It's still a bug.  Matter of fact, OE 6 is the only one that
>>>>screws it up.
>>>
>>>
>>>Since you're unable to reread above, I'll have to paste in the reply
>>>I already made to that, below:
>>>
>>>No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>>what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>>designed to work that way.
>>>
>>>Recite the following as many times as it takes for it to sink in:
>>>
>>>A bug is not deliberately coded behavior.
>>>
>>>A bug is not a program doing what it was designed to do.
>>>
>>
>>Then why is the reserved word 'begin' in its repertoire?  If it is to
>>be used properly there should also be a syntax checker built in to
>>let you know if there is a misuseage of begin or any other of its
>>reserved words.  At least you should be able to look at what was sent
>>to debug what was sent.  In this case the info just disappears...
>>either its a bug or poorly designed.
> 
> 
> Not all binary posting will have a END as the last line,  if it a multipart
> posting,  the END is only in the last message.   The misusage is the people
> use 'begin  ' at in the messages and not the news reader program.   I
> wouldn't say it was poorly designed,  just short sighted,  but the people
> exploit the problem is just as bad.   I read alot of newsgroups,  and the
> exploit ONLY occurs in LINUX newsgroups.    I find that funny,  since Linux
> users seem to want Windows users to switch,  but all it does it turn off
> Windows users.   It makes Linux look like people who want to Exclude instead
> of include others.....
> 
> 
Well, then, I'll visit c.o.v. and try it there.  Maybe others will get 
the hint that M$ isn't a very good solution in corporate areas.

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

Keyser Soze wrote:

> GreyCloud wrote:
> 
>>Keyser Soze wrote:
>>
>>
>>>GreyCloud wrote:
>>><Acknowledgement of a good Troll by the lost linuxfuck, snipped>
>>>
>>>And you wonder why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA?
>>>
>>
>>That's just your perception.
> 
> 
> It's easy to recognise "why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA"
> 
> 
>>Is it because there is no response that I am correct?
> 
> 
> "there is no response that I am correct?" Spot on.
> 

Guffaw!! You are wrong as usual.  You don't read all of COLA.
And there are responses.  You just don't see them.

> 
>>Maybe
> 
> 
> Isn't doubt a bitch for you, eh?
> 
>

I have no doubts.  Especially about you.

It was fun trollin' ya.



-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

Edwin wrote:

> It's still not a bug, regardless of your opinion on who "got it right." 

Right, it's not a bug.  It's an exclusive OE feature.

Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message news:<87037877872243cd9831ff2eee951604@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
> relic, the indiscrete, mad-bred clam, and supplier or maker of clothing and
> equipment for drag queens, ummed and arred:
> > Aquila Deus wrote:
> >> Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> wrote in message
> >> news:<mnst0qqtb4fg$.9v3ndjderi62$.dlg@40tude.net>...
> >>> On 17 Sep 2004 11:41:40 -0700, Aquila Deus wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
> >>>> news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
> >>>>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer in
> >>>>> worthless horses, croaked:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
> >>>>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
> >>>>> fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio trabe
> >>>>> at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule avexerat,
> >>>>> es.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque. Obes
> >>>>> obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat ui
> >>>>> anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus
> >>>>> aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at
> >>>>> ultor uisa re.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea. Ibat
> >>>>> adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam prendit luxu.
> >>>>> Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture limo ni bos.
> >>>>> Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque mihique.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha Man,
> >>>>> Usenet]
> >>>>
> >>>> WTF is that? dutch?
> >>>
> >>> Latin.
> >>
> >> No, it's not latin, french, german, italian, portuguese, spanish, or
> >> esperanto.
> >
> > It's Berserker IV.
> 
> It is also Latin. The fuckwit chink doesn't know any better.

But my ultralingua says it's not.... ummm...

Aquila Deus, the prim, premenstrual rabbit, and employee responsible for the
care and maintenance of the church organ, pressured:
> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.netwrote in message
> news:<87037877872243cd9831ff2eee951604@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>> relic, the indiscrete, mad-bred clam, and supplier or maker of clothing
>> and equipment for drag queens, ummed and arred:
>>> Aquila Deus wrote:
>>>> Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:<mnst0qqtb4fg$.9v3ndjderi62$.dlg@40tude.net>...
>>>>> On 17 Sep 2004 11:41:40 -0700, Aquila Deus wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kadaitcha Man <nospam@rainx.cjb.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:<455ca48a70d443339f4276aa892611ba@news-text.bhandari.pvt.np>...
>>>>>>> Peter K�hlmann, the ill-bred, brainless canker-blossom, and dealer
>>>>>>> in worthless horses, croaked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore
>>>>>>>> perseverare.  [Cicero, Philippica 12, 2]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Atrae ocreae terra paene, morsque audaciae do. Diuturniorem proci
>>>>>>> fixerit es eas aviaque subicamus. Fanique veroque affixus ac fio
>>>>>>> trabe at aliorsum nil ni orbe. Hi dedico aenaque deficeret tumule
>>>>>>> avexerat, es.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nutum inremeabilis meoque, petebant arcuato haeque uisae estoque.
>>>>>>> Obes obiecerunt firma gremio lloc rimabamini i. Exigat adnuis, orat
>>>>>>> ui anaque faciebam pi. Lusum auunculo heuque en cura tactibus edimus
>>>>>>> aemulantium. Retentat obuersabamini edico alte, illa exscidia, at
>>>>>>> ultor uisa re.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tumida imos arundo agitanti naues iubo molleram imique legem ea.
>>>>>>> Ibat adpeteram filia, hi fumi vectigalia, otiique, trepidabam
>>>>>>> prendit luxu. Ruitis sarcinas, cingam me tabo rubescebat, palla ture
>>>>>>> limo ni bos. Emittit suppeditauere urna tu torrens vinaque neuque
>>>>>>> mihique.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Domestici lpse munera es, abeam nidi imosque sceptris. [Kadaitcha
>>>>>>> Man, Usenet]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF is that? dutch?
>>>>>
>>>>> Latin.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's not latin, french, german, italian, portuguese, spanish, or
>>>> esperanto.
>>>
>>> It's Berserker IV.
>>
>> It is also Latin. The fuckwit chink doesn't know any better.
>
> But my ultralingua says it's not.... ummm...

That's because your fucking online translator only does Roman Catholic Cult
type Latin, not classical Latin, you usuring, snot-guzzling, battery-powered
tart.

--
Dinner tonight is fondued tick labia next to roasted live rat embryos
and kitten penis seasoning, simmered in a gurgling deep dish overflowing
with imported bits of string bean and cauliflower in sour cream, a side of
fruit and a pint of pond scum.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:55:31 GMT, Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> wrote:
| GreyCloud wrote:
|> Edwin wrote:


  <a bunch of drivel snipped>


|>> Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to
|>> make it a problem.
|>
|> So?  It's still a bug.  Matter of fact, OE 6 is the only one that
|> screws it up.
|
| Since you're unable to reread above, I'll have to paste in the reply I 
| already made to that, below:
|
| No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
| follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
| that way.
|
| Recite the following as many times as it takes for it to sink in:
|
| A bug is not deliberately coded behavior.
|
| A bug is not a program doing what it was designed to do.


Then it is acting as designed, and the fault is in the design.

It's still a bug, just one level higher in the chain.

Oh, and the bug *IS* that it treats 'begin' + 2 spaces at the start of a
line as the start of a uuencoded attachment. The correct marker for the
start of a uuencoded attachment is: Start of line, 'begin', space,
3 octal digits giving file permissions, space, file name, end of line.

It seems Microsoft took a shortcut when they originally coded this, and
have since refused to correct the problem.


-- 
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC.    http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
     Asking for technical help in newsgroups?  Read this first:
        http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Paul Colquhoun:

> Oh, and the bug *IS* that it treats 'begin' + 2 spaces at the start of a
> line as the start of a uuencoded attachment. The correct marker for the
> start of a uuencoded attachment is: Start of line, 'begin', space,
> 3 octal digits giving file permissions, space, file name, end of line.
>
> It seems Microsoft took a shortcut when they originally coded this, and
> have since refused to correct the problem.

The hubris of the developer!

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:42:23 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> 
> "Rick" <none@none.com> wrote in message 
> news:pan.2004.09.18.17.07.55.718183@none.com...
>> On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:56:25 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>
>>> Rick wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:46:23 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:11:56 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:08:08 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:00:48 -0400, Rick wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:23:07 +0000, Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Once again, viewing message source shows the reply:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> begin  Edwin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OE can show a message with the "begin bug," if you view the
>>>>>>>>>> message source.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Viewing the source of Peter's reply gives us:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> begin  Sharon Kristiansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi flatfish
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Showing off how really clever you are, do you?
>>>>>>>>> Now ask yourself how long anyone else here knew about this
>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>> And ask why *anyone* else who does not use OE can read the
>>>>>>>>> messages just fine without any additional hoopla
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... becaus ewe use newsreaders that work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your spell checker doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> at the moment, it doen't. So what?
>>>>>
>>>>> Go complain to who wrote it.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I told you before (and you snipped) this is no "bug"
>>>>>>>>> triggered by a "typo."   You inserted your "begin" and two
>>>>>>>>> spaces ahead of the attribution generated by the news reader.
>>>>>>>>> This is nothing more than you making malicious use of your
>>>>>>>>> knowledge of how OE works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it's what I wrote above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uh, no. This is m$ refusing to fix a bug in its newsreader.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>>>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>>>> designed to work that way.
>>>>
>>>> It is designed to affect uuencoded files, not text. The other
>>>> newsreaders get it right. m$ hasn't.
>>>
>>> It's still not a bug, regardless of your opinion on who "got it right."
>>
>> Well thanks for acknowledging that micro$oft didn't write their newsreader
>> code correctly, and refuses to fix it.
> 
> Point out where I acknowledged any such thing.

Sure. Your words:

>>>>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats
>>>>> what follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's
>>>>> designed to work that way.


-- 
Rick

begin  <slrnckpvrt.11e.postmaster@andor.dropbear.id.au>,
	Paul Colquhoun <postmaster@andor.dropbear.id.au> writes:
> 
> Then it is acting as designed, and the fault is in the design.
> 
> It's still a bug, just one level higher in the chain.

Exactly. It is a bug. No uuencoded message ever starts with 'begin  '.

> Oh, and the bug *IS* that it treats 'begin' + 2 spaces at the start of a
> line as the start of a uuencoded attachment. The correct marker for the
> start of a uuencoded attachment is: Start of line, 'begin', space,
> 3 octal digits giving file permissions, space, file name, end of line.
> 
> It seems Microsoft took a shortcut when they originally coded this,
> and have since refused to correct the problem.

No shortcut. Either the developer was clueless about uuencode/uudecode
or they fucked up in the coding. End of story.

begin  On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:58:45 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

> 
> 
> Keyser Soze wrote:
> 
>> GreyCloud wrote:
>> 
>>>Keyser Soze wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>GreyCloud wrote:
>>>><Acknowledgement of a good Troll by the lost linuxfuck, snipped>
>>>>
>>>>And you wonder why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA?
>>>>
>>>
>>>That's just your perception.
>> 
>> 
>> It's easy to recognise "why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA"
>> 
>> 
>>>Is it because there is no response that I am correct?
>> 
>> 
>> "there is no response that I am correct?" Spot on.
>> 
> 
> Guffaw!! You are wrong as usual.  You don't read all of COLA.
> And there are responses.  You just don't see them.

[Outlook error: message invisible. See http://viewport.co.uk/outlook

begin  

So the idiot troll's got no idea either! LOL


<snip>
-- 
Windoze XP, now with eXtra Problems!
Shaftware Pack2. 
"What don't you want to work tomorrow?" 

Paul Colquhoun wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:55:31 GMT, Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> wrote:
> | GreyCloud wrote:
> |> Edwin wrote:
> 
> 
>   <a bunch of drivel snipped>
> 
> 
> |>> Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to
> |>> make it a problem.
> |>
> |> So?  It's still a bug.  Matter of fact, OE 6 is the only one that
> |> screws it up.
> |
> | Since you're unable to reread above, I'll have to paste in the reply I 
> | already made to that, below:
> |
> | No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
> | follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
> | that way.
> |
> | Recite the following as many times as it takes for it to sink in:
> |
> | A bug is not deliberately coded behavior.
> |
> | A bug is not a program doing what it was designed to do.
> 
> 
> Then it is acting as designed, and the fault is in the design.
> 
> It's still a bug, just one level higher in the chain.
> 
> Oh, and the bug *IS* that it treats 'begin' + 2 spaces at the start of a
> line as the start of a uuencoded attachment. The correct marker for the
> start of a uuencoded attachment is: Start of line, 'begin', space,
> 3 octal digits giving file permissions, space, file name, end of line.
> 
> It seems Microsoft took a shortcut when they originally coded this, and
> have since refused to correct the problem.
> 
> 

I think you may have shown why M$ won't correct the problem.  After 
doing a google search on NSA keys of M$, and seeing that so many use 
windwoes, it makes sense not to include the 3 octal digits for 
permissions.  It makes spying so much easier, especially foreign countries.

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

GreyCloud wrote:

<snip>

> I think you may have shown why M$ won't correct the problem.  After 
> doing a google search on NSA keys of M$, and seeing that so many use 
> windwoes, it makes sense not to include the 3 octal digits for 
> permissions.  It makes spying so much easier, especially foreign 
> countries.

Sorry ? Are you seriously stating that MS won't correct the begin
bug/problem because of security concerns and using three octal digits
for file permissions is a security defect ? How so ?

[snips]

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 23:30:44 +0000, Quantum Leaper wrote:


> Not all binary posting will have a END as the last line,  if it a multipart
> posting,  the END is only in the last message.   The misusage is the people
> use 'begin  ' at in the messages and not the news reader program.

IIRC, the correct format of such an embedded binary block starts with
"begin", followed by a mode number and a filename, subsequently followed
up by lines of specified lengths, encoded a particular way.  Further, the
mode number is of a predictable format.

Thus, a message starting with "begin  Hey, there!" could not possibly
indicate such an encoded block, as it lacks the mode number, therefore any
reader which attempts to treat the following data as an encoded block is,
simply, broken.

OE's actions tell us that its _design_ is, indeed, intended to support
such encoded message blocks.  The specifications on the formatting of such
messages tell us that the _specifications_, if followed, would prevent
this problem occurring.

If a program fails, but the design and specifications are correct, it
follows that the error lies in the implementation - that is, the actual
coding - and is, therefore, a bug.  A coding bug.

As far as anyone can tell, *every* newsreader out there manages to get
this right, except for OE.  Microsoft, with all its billions in R&D, with
all its coders, all its testing, all its claims of everything from ease of
use to trusted computing, cannot get something this basic correct; this
should be an *extremely* worrying sign to Windows users.  Any application
has bugs, sure.  This one, however, has been around a hell of a long time,
has received more than its fair share of exposure, and still hasn't been
fixed; what does this say about MS's ideas of quality?

The same app, it should be noted, also requires a third-party fix just to
handle quoting sensibly; other newsreaders generally get this right, but
not the one from MS.  That's two issues which are widely known, widely
reported, have been around a long time and MS still can't fix them.

Of course, the same app also does other things wrong.  It's bad enough
rendering HTML in mails or news posts; this app, however, takes it even
further and will merrily execute scripts, retrieve images and the like
from remote sites, and even, IIRC, execute active x controls, all of which
is a serious security risk.

That's _three_ significant problems, all well known, all long-standing, in
one single application.  Not just any application, though.  This isn't,
say, Eudora mail which is used by some smallish number of users; it's one
of the core applications bundled into every copy of Windows since what,
Win98?  There are hundreds of millions of copies of this thing floating
about, hundreds of millions of people at risk as a result of using it, and
while the specific begin bug may only affect a small number, the
application itself, being as prevalent as it is, stands as a testament to
what MS thinks of its products, and of the customers who use them.  Which
is to say, not a hell of a lot.

Yes, it's a bug.  Yes, it's a minor bug.  The implications, however,
should make Windows users ponder long and hard just what it is they're
using, and just how much reliance they should put in those products.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:33:52 +0000, Edwin wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:15:50 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:
> 
>> begin  C:\AUX Edwin wrote:
>> 
>> < snip > 
>> 
>>> No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
>>> follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
>>> that way.
>> 
>> It is a bug. 
> 
> No it's not.   A bug is not intentionally coded behavior, as I said above.

So it was *intentional* on MS's part to ignore the standard, ignore the
specification, and create an application which, when presented with
something as trivial as "begin  " as an encoded message, rather than, like
the specs say and everyone else manages to get right, look for a
defined format?

The design (we can tell, by the actions) says "handle this type of data". 
The specs (which we can get from the format documentation) tells us how
such data is formatted.  That leaves it as an implementation failure:
some half-trained monkey, unable to grasp complex specifications such as
"begin, followed by a mode number, followed by a file name", decided that
all that mattered was the "begin" and history was made.

It's a bug.



>> without actually looking for a matching
>> 
>> end
>> 
>> is just sheer stupidity
>> 
>> In other words, a perfect match for MS software
> 
> It's not a bug because you don't give it your approval for the way to
> mark an attachment.

The way to mark an attachment is defined elsewhere.  It's MS's inability
to write code to actually _meet_ the standard that's the problem.  What do
we call coding failures?  Oh, right.  Bugs.

[snips]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:37:27 +0000, Edwin wrote:


>> There are people who like to right justify their text. It is very easy
>> to trigger the begin bug this way:
> 
> Please explain how right justifying text would insert "begin" and two spaces 
> before "Roy Culley wrote:," in this message.

Why would you assume that all posts are responses?  They're not; some are
original posts.  Any original post commencing with the word "begin" and
being justified runs the risk of triggering this bug.

Rayzor wrote:
>> Keyser Soze wrote:
>>
>>> GreyCloud wrote:
>>> <Acknowledgement of a good Troll by the lost linuxfuck, snipped>
>>>
>>> And you wonder why all the linuxfux won't play with you in COLA?
>>>
>>
>> That's just your perception.  Is it because there is no response that
>> I am correct?  Maybe you can't see the obvious.
> Ur allways rong.

Good boy. Now, gayclown aka geycloud = bone, ok?

Now, /fetch/!

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Kelsey Bjarnason:

> The way to mark an attachment is defined elsewhere.  It's MS's inability
> to write code to actually _meet_ the standard that's the problem.  What do
> we call coding failures?  Oh, right.  Bugs.

A bug is a feature coded by C-level programmers.  

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:52:16 -0700, Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:

> IIRC, the correct format of such an embedded binary block starts with
> "begin", followed by a mode number and a filename, subsequently followed
> up by lines of specified lengths, encoded a particular way.  Further, the
> mode number is of a predictable format.

A mode number is a unixism, and is unnecessary on any non-UGO filesystem
based OS.  It makes no sense to require a mode anymore anyways, since a
umode will usually overrule any mode setting in the file.  Further, a mode
flag wouldn't prevent false positives either.

> Thus, a message starting with "begin  Hey, there!" could not possibly
> indicate such an encoded block, as it lacks the mode number, therefore any
> reader which attempts to treat the following data as an encoded block is,
> simply, broken.

Not on an OS that doesn't give a shit what a mode is.

> OE's actions tell us that its _design_ is, indeed, intended to support
> such encoded message blocks.  The specifications on the formatting of such
> messages tell us that the _specifications_, if followed, would prevent
> this problem occurring.

The mode bit in OE is optional because it's ignored and unneeded.  BTW,
there is no uuencoding RFC, so there is no official standard anyways.

> If a program fails, but the design and specifications are correct, it
> follows that the error lies in the implementation - that is, the actual
> coding - and is, therefore, a bug.  A coding bug.

OE is working as designed in this matter.

> As far as anyone can tell, *every* newsreader out there manages to get
> this right, except for OE.

No.  No other newsreader that i'm aware of treats uuencoded files as
attachments.  As such, they avoid the problem by not implementing it at
all.  I agree with that approach, and I feel the flaw in this matter is
that it treats uuencoding as an attachment, not that it does so
incorrectly.  This is what MIME was created to fix.

> The same app, it should be noted, also requires a third-party fix just to
> handle quoting sensibly; other newsreaders generally get this right, but
> not the one from MS.  That's two issues which are widely known, widely
> reported, have been around a long time and MS still can't fix them.

OE isn't the only newsreader that has problems with long quotes.  It's just
the most popular of the ones that do.

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 03:40:01 GMT, Paul Colquhoun wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:55:31 GMT, Edwin <thorne25@juno.com> wrote:
>| GreyCloud wrote:
>|> Edwin wrote:
> 
> 
>   <a bunch of drivel snipped>
> 
> 
>|>> Irrelevant.  And it's only a problem amongst those who choose to
>|>> make it a problem.
>|>
>|> So?  It's still a bug.  Matter of fact, OE 6 is the only one that
>|> screws it up.
>|
>| Since you're unable to reread above, I'll have to paste in the reply I 
>| already made to that, below:
>|
>| No, it's not a bug.   It's not accidental behavior that OE treats what
>| follows "begin," then two spaces, as an attachment, it's designed to work
>| that way.
>|
>| Recite the following as many times as it takes for it to sink in:
>|
>| A bug is not deliberately coded behavior.
>|
>| A bug is not a program doing what it was designed to do.
> 
> 
> Then it is acting as designed, and the fault is in the design.
> 
> It's still a bug, just one level higher in the chain.
> 
> Oh, and the bug *IS* that it treats 'begin' + 2 spaces at the start of a
> line as the start of a uuencoded attachment. The correct marker for the
> start of a uuencoded attachment is: Start of line, 'begin', space,
> 3 octal digits giving file permissions, space, file name, end of line.
> 
> It seems Microsoft took a shortcut when they originally coded this, and
> have since refused to correct the problem.

OE does recognize precisely that as a uuencoded attachment.  The only
difference is that mode is optional, thus "begin 644 filename" is the same
as "begin  filename", because the mode is missing.  mode is archaic and
only supported under UGO filesystems, which Windows doesn't have.  Further,
the mode bit would be largely ignored by modern unix OS's anyways, since
the umode would supercede it.  It's an anachronism, and uselss, especially
for non-unix OS's.

Inclusion of the mode bits would also not prevent false positives, and it's
probably more likely that inclusion of the mode would trigger a false
positive than lacking it, since two spaces after a begin at the beginning
of a line would be gramatically incorrect, while a statement such as "If we
begin 644 tasks at once, we will achieve chaos" are not.  

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:17:43 -0700, Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:

>> No it's not.   A bug is not intentionally coded behavior, as I said above.
> 
> So it was *intentional* on MS's part to ignore the standard

Which standard might that be?  Please, give me the RFC number.

> ignore the specification

Which specification might that be?  

> and create an application which, when presented with
> something as trivial as "begin  " as an encoded message, rather than, like
> the specs say and everyone else manages to get right, look for a
> defined format?

Your molehills are not mountains.  Why should windows care about the mode?
For that matter, why should Unix even care what mode the file was set for
on the senders system?

In fact, a newsreader would be insecure if it honored the mode bit, since
it could set the mode to executable, making it easier for a virus to
propogate (or at least that's what people keep telling me, that Linux
newsreaders require you to set the mode manually to prevent such things).

So tell me, what exactly does providing the do?  It certainly would not
prevent a false positive.

>> It's not a bug because you don't give it your approval for the way to
>> mark an attachment.
> 
> The way to mark an attachment is defined elsewhere.  It's MS's inability
> to write code to actually _meet_ the standard that's the problem.  What do
> we call coding failures?  Oh, right.  Bugs.

Actually, no.  It's not.  The way to mark a uuencoded file as anattachment
is *NOT* defined elsewhere, that's the problem with uuencoding.  MIME was
developed to solve this problem.

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Erik Funkenbusch:

> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:52:16 -0700, Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:
>
>> IIRC, the correct format of such an embedded binary block starts with
>> "begin", followed by a mode number and a filename, subsequently followed
>> up by lines of specified lengths, encoded a particular way.  Further, the
>> mode number is of a predictable format.
>
> A mode number is a unixism, and is unnecessary on any non-UGO filesystem
> based OS.  It makes no sense to require a mode anymore anyways, since a
> umode will usually overrule any mode setting in the file.  Further, a mode
> flag wouldn't prevent false positives either.

<shuffle shuffle shuffle>

>> Thus, a message starting with "begin  Hey, there!" could not possibly
>> indicate such an encoded block, as it lacks the mode number, therefore any
>> reader which attempts to treat the following data as an encoded block is,
>> simply, broken.
>
> Not on an OS that doesn't give a shit what a mode is.

I thought Windows had this basic feature.

<shuffle shuffle shuffle>

>> OE's actions tell us that its _design_ is, indeed, intended to support
>> such encoded message blocks.  The specifications on the formatting of such
>> messages tell us that the _specifications_, if followed, would prevent
>> this problem occurring.
>
> The mode bit in OE is optional because it's ignored and unneeded.  BTW,
> there is no uuencoding RFC, so there is no official standard anyways.

<shuffle shuffle shuffle>

>> If a program fails, but the design and specifications are correct, it
>> follows that the error lies in the implementation - that is, the actual
>> coding - and is, therefore, a bug.  A coding bug.
>
> OE is working as designed in this matter.

I wonder if OE even has a "design".

>> As far as anyone can tell, *every* newsreader out there manages to get
>> this right, except for OE.
>
> No.  No other newsreader that i'm aware of treats uuencoded files as
> attachments.  As such, they avoid the problem by not implementing it at
> all.  I agree with that approach, and I feel the flaw in this matter is
> that it treats uuencoding as an attachment, not that it does so
> incorrectly.  This is what MIME was created to fix.

<shuffle shuffle shuffle>

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Erik Funkenbusch:

> OE does recognize precisely that as a uuencoded attachment.  The only
> difference is that mode is optional, thus "begin 644 filename" is the same
> as "begin  filename", because the mode is missing.  mode is archaic and
> only supported under UGO filesystems, which Windows doesn't have.  Further,
> the mode bit would be largely ignored by modern unix OS's anyways, since
> the umode would supercede it.  It's an anachronism, and uselss, especially
> for non-unix OS's.

<shuffle shuffle shuffle>

> Inclusion of the mode bits would also not prevent false positives, and it's
> probably more likely that inclusion of the mode would trigger a false
> positive than lacking it, since two spaces after a begin at the beginning
> of a line would be gramatically incorrect, while a statement such as "If we
> begin 644 tasks at once, we will achieve chaos" are not.  

<shuffle shuffle shuffle>

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Erik Funkenbusch:

> Your molehills are not mountains.  Why should windows care about the mode?
> For that matter, why should Unix even care what mode the file was set for
> on the senders system?

<shuffle shuffle shuffle>

> In fact, a newsreader would be insecure if it honored the mode bit, since
> it could set the mode to executable, making it easier for a virus to
> propogate (or at least that's what people keep telling me, that Linux
> newsreaders require you to set the mode manually to prevent such things).
>
> So tell me, what exactly does providing the do?  It certainly would not
> prevent a false positive.

<shuffle shuffle shuffle>

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut

Error BR-549: MS DRM 1.0 rejects the following post from Erik Funkenbusch:

> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:17:43 -0700, Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:
>
>>> No it's not.   A bug is not intentionally coded behavior, as I said above.
>> 
>> So it was *intentional* on MS's part to ignore the standard
>
> Which standard might that be?  Please, give me the RFC number.

Uuencode does not have an assigned RFC, unless you want to lump it into RFC
3548.

However, since RFCs are not the only standards documents, you can indeed
find a uuencode standard:

http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/uuencode.html

> Which specification might that be?  

   The standard output shall be a text file (encoded in the character set of
   the current locale) that begins with the line:

      "begin %s %s\n" <mode>, <decode_pathname>

   and ends with the line:

      "end\n"

   In both cases, the lines shall have no preceding or trailing <blank>s.

Also, all lines between these two markers, except for the last, shall have
the same length, encoding a maximum of 45 octets.

>> and create an application which, when presented with
>> something as trivial as "begin  " as an encoded message, rather than, like
>> the specs say and everyone else manages to get right, look for a
>> defined format?
>
> Your molehills are not mountains.  Why should windows care about the mode?

Because it is part of the specification, stupid.

-- 
[X] Check here to always trust content from Lin�nut