f



The Challenge

I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an
average user COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my
computer.  I even got the partitions ready.  And I already
had the iso's downloaded.

We agreed on a user (Matt),who could do most things in windows,
and the bet was on.  We could not solve the problem, but
would help out on installing RPM's and YaST.  We also could
tell how to ./ a file and unzip a file.

Matt started in Windows XP.

It was FUNNY AS HELL.  First, Matt did not know what an ISO was.
But Matt did figure out burning, and burned 5 data cd's.
I let NUT help him out, and he found the setting on Zero.

Matt would put in the ISO disk.  Nothing happened.
I let NUT tell Matt to put it in the CD, and reboot.

The install, actually, went well, as long as the user got to accept the
default settings.  Esp. when it came to the Partitions.  There is no
way
Matt could have figured out on his own.

Matt was able to find and use Firefox (1.07) and Open Office.

Matt tried to print from Open Office, and it did not work.
Frankly, there is NO WAY Matt could have figured out how
to set up the Printer, by opening the port, on that little button
on the lower right of the screen.  (HP PSC 1135)

Next, Matt was to visit some web sites, and play video and listen
to music steams.  Matt's job was to Google and Make this work.
Didn't get close.  There is NO WAY Matt could have figured this out.

Next, Matt was to install Java.  To my surprise, Matt did get an RPM,
and installed Java.  But it did not verify on the www.java.com site.

Matt was to install Opera 8.5, Real Player 10 Gold, and Adobe Acrobat.
None of these got installed.

Matt was to upgrade FireFox to 1.5.  This was a failure.  He did find
an
RPM for another distro, but it did not work.

All in All, it was funny as hell, and there is NO WAY a new user is
going 
to use openSUSE 10 without a lot of training.

0
2/12/2006 9:20:23 PM
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tab wrote:

> Matt was... 

....a complete idiot.

0
nospam34 (89)
2/12/2006 9:40:05 PM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:20:23 -0800, tab wrote:

> I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an average user
> COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my computer.  I even got the partitions
> ready.  And I already had the iso's downloaded.

If you are comparing ease of installation between windows and a Linux
distro, why did you use iso's?


> 
> We agreed on a user (Matt),who could do most things in windows, and the
> bet was on.  We could not solve the problem, but would help out on
> installing RPM's and YaST.  We also could tell how to ./ a file and unzip
> a file.

../ a file?

> 
> Matt started in Windows XP.

Why?

> 
> It was FUNNY AS HELL.  First, Matt did not know what an ISO was. But Matt
> did figure out burning, and burned 5 data cd's. I let NUT help him out,
> and he found the setting on Zero.

So, Matt could not burn CDs even from windows?

> 
> Matt would put in the ISO disk.  Nothing happened. I let NUT tell Matt to
> put it in the CD, and reboot.
> 
> The install, actually, went well, as long as the user got to accept the
> default settings.  Esp. when it came to the Partitions.  There is no way
> Matt could have figured out on his own.

How would he have figured it out when installing windows?

> 
> Matt was able to find and use Firefox (1.07) and Open Office.
> 
> Matt tried to print from Open Office, and it did not work. Frankly, there
> is NO WAY Matt could have figured out how to set up the Printer, by
> opening the port, on that little button on the lower right of the screen. 
> (HP PSC 1135)

What little button on the side of the screen? With Mandriva and Suse, the
printer should have been set up by just hitting the default buttons.

And it is very easy to install printers using YaST.

> 
> Next, Matt was to visit some web sites, and play video and listen to music
> steams.  Matt's job was to Google and Make this work. Didn't get close. 
> There is NO WAY Matt could have figured this out.
> 
> Next, Matt was to install Java.  To my surprise, Matt did get an RPM, and
> installed Java.  But it did not verify on the www.java.com site.

Why didn't you show him the included package management system?

> 
> Matt was to install Opera 8.5, Real Player 10 Gold, and Adobe Acrobat.
> None of these got installed.

Why didn't you show him the included package management system?

> 
> Matt was to upgrade FireFox to 1.5.  This was a failure.  He did find an
> RPM for another distro, but it did not work.

Why didn't you show him the included package management system?

> 
> All in All, it was funny as hell, and there is NO WAY a new user is going
> to use openSUSE 10 without a lot of training.

There is no way a new user can use windows without a lot of training,
either.

-- 
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>

0
trollfeed (965)
2/12/2006 9:41:27 PM
tab wrote:

< snip tab idiocy >

tab <trentallenblack@yahoo.com>  wrote in

Message-ID: <1133228573.959224.29990@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
---------------------------
Plonk me, insult me, trash me, but at your expense.
You will have to know what I say to newbies.
You started this war, I am here now!
You never should have trashed me as a newbie.
I am a product of you.  Congrats.  MORONS.
Linux advocates at their finest.
---------------------------

This about sums it. Forget anything that idiot writes. It is garbage
-- 
Microsoft software doesn't get released - it escapes, leaving
a trail of destruction behind it.

0
Peter.Koehlmann (13228)
2/12/2006 9:53:32 PM
On Sunday 12 February 2006 21:20 tab wrote:

> I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an
> average user COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my
> computer.  I even got the partitions ready.  And I already
> had the iso's downloaded.

My experience on this front is even stranger than yours.
Several months ago, I lent my old boxed set of SUSE 9.1 to a friend who had
never used Linux before, merely seen it on my machine when he visited (2
occasions).  When he took the box, he merely asked if it would be best (in
his case, and since he was nervous of corrupting his Windows drives) to
simply unlock his removable caddies, and insert a new HD in a caddy as what
he called "Drive C".

I told him that, although he need not be *quite* so paranoid, if it made him
feel better, that was fine.

Just over 24 hours later, I received an e-mail that started, "I am writing
this in Kmail, and I hope you get it..."  He wanted to know how to install
"extra stuff", so I told him in my reply to start YaST........

This guy didn't know anybody else nearby who was using Linux, didn't contact
me in between.  I guess he was just lucky, huh?

He was a bit annoyed when he came round a couple of weeks ago.  He saw me
using Konqueror as an FTP client, and cussed me for not telling him you
could do that..... ah well,  can't win 'em all:-(

He had no trouble with his printers, or with installing Nvu and using it, or
with his camera, GIMP, OpenOffice.  I doubt he's got the multimedia stuff
going yet - but there again, I doubt he's very interested.

I wouldn't call the guy an expert.  Certainly a very experienced Windows
user, and capable of installing Windows from scratch.


0
bbgruff (6628)
2/12/2006 10:05:30 PM
tab wrote:

> I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an
> average user COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my
> computer.  

They couldn't set up XP either.

Linux should be pre-installed.


0
jabailo (8241)
2/12/2006 10:50:12 PM
On 2006-02-12, Rick <trollfeed@trollfeed.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:20:23 -0800, tab wrote:
>
>> I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an average user
>> COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my computer.  I even got the partitions
>> ready.  And I already had the iso's downloaded.
>
> If you are comparing ease of installation between windows and a Linux
> distro, why did you use iso's?
>
>
>> 
>> We agreed on a user (Matt),who could do most things in windows, and the
>> bet was on.  We could not solve the problem, but would help out on
>> installing RPM's and YaST.  We also could tell how to ./ a file and unzip
>> a file.
>
> ./ a file?
>
>> 
>> Matt started in Windows XP.
>
> Why?
>
>> 
>> It was FUNNY AS HELL.  First, Matt did not know what an ISO was. But Matt
>> did figure out burning, and burned 5 data cd's. I let NUT help him out,
>> and he found the setting on Zero.
>
> So, Matt could not burn CDs even from windows?
>
>> 
>> Matt would put in the ISO disk.  Nothing happened. I let NUT tell Matt to
>> put it in the CD, and reboot.
>> 
>> The install, actually, went well, as long as the user got to accept the
>> default settings.  Esp. when it came to the Partitions.  There is no way
>> Matt could have figured out on his own.
>
> How would he have figured it out when installing windows?
>
>> 
>> Matt was able to find and use Firefox (1.07) and Open Office.
>> 
>> Matt tried to print from Open Office, and it did not work. Frankly, there
>> is NO WAY Matt could have figured out how to set up the Printer, by
>> opening the port, on that little button on the lower right of the screen. 
>> (HP PSC 1135)
>
> What little button on the side of the screen? With Mandriva and Suse, the
> printer should have been set up by just hitting the default buttons.
>
> And it is very easy to install printers using YaST.
>
>> 
>> Next, Matt was to visit some web sites, and play video and listen to music
>> steams.  Matt's job was to Google and Make this work. Didn't get close. 
>> There is NO WAY Matt could have figured this out.
>> 
>> Next, Matt was to install Java.  To my surprise, Matt did get an RPM, and
>> installed Java.  But it did not verify on the www.java.com site.
>
> Why didn't you show him the included package management system?
>
>> 
>> Matt was to install Opera 8.5, Real Player 10 Gold, and Adobe Acrobat.
>> None of these got installed.
>
> Why didn't you show him the included package management system?
>
>> 
>> Matt was to upgrade FireFox to 1.5.  This was a failure.  He did find an
>> RPM for another distro, but it did not work.
>
> Why didn't you show him the included package management system?
>
>> 
>> All in All, it was funny as hell, and there is NO WAY a new user is going
>> to use openSUSE 10 without a lot of training.
>
> There is no way a new user can use windows without a lot of training,
> either.
>

We respond to calls every day where Windows users need our help to add network 
printers, mapped drives, and a number of other everyday tasks that most admins 
would consider rudimentary. In fact, for a good cross-sample of users who need 
Windows configuration assistance, one only need turn to the groups within 
news.microsoft.com and peruse the requests for help. There are literally 
thousands of such posts. 

For better or worse, most end users we meet have absolutely no idea
how to install and configure Windows beyond clicking on the "Next" prompts.
This includes adding printers, network shares, adding their workstation to a
workgroup or domain, adding other Local or Domain users, configuring email 
(using any email client), and installing/configuring their PDAs
(Blackberry, Palm Zire, et al)... to name a few. 

Even if none of these sorts of tasks are needed and a person follows the
Windows Setup "Next" prompts to completion for a "vanilla" configuration; is 
the computer properly patched and protected? Will it connect to the Internet? 
Can the user send and receive email - or print? 

Probably not. 

This is no different in Linux. Simply following the "vanilla" configuration
prompts to completion will not accommodate all aspects of usability.

I digress...
I'm not sure why anyone would feel being unfamiliar with configuring a
computer (Windows, Linux, Mac, or other) makes a user "stupid." It has
nothing to do with intelligence. These users simply are not required to do
these sorts of configuration tasks very often, if ever. 

In this case, (Matt's unfamiliarity with SUSE Linux), it's kind of like 
shaking one's head in disgust at a movie-goer because he or she is unfamiliar 
with assembling a Arriflex D-20 high definition camera. 

That's what movie camera technicians are for :-)

-- 
Back from the restroom? Better scan your Windows system.
0
malware.vbs (218)
2/13/2006 12:59:56 AM
On Monday 13 February 2006 00:59 Malware Magnet wrote:

> In this case, (Matt's unfamiliarity with SUSE Linux), it's kind of like
> shaking one's head in disgust at a movie-goer because he or she is
> unfamiliar with assembling a Arriflex D-20 high definition camera.

Indeed.
Perhaps an interesting question would be to ask how Matt got along with a
fully installed SUSE set up?:-)

0
bbgruff (6628)
2/13/2006 1:04:30 AM
Op Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:20:23 -0800, schreef tab:

> I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an
> average user COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my
> computer.  I even got the partitions ready.  And I already
> had the iso's downloaded.

OK, where can I find the Windows ISO's? Ah, I thought so.
No points for you here.
 
> We agreed on a user (Matt),who could do most things in windows,
> and the bet was on.  We could not solve the problem, but
> would help out on installing RPM's and YaST.  We also could
> tell how to ./ a file and unzip a file.
> 
> Matt started in Windows XP.

Uh-oh ... bad start ... No points for you here.

> It was FUNNY AS HELL.  First, Matt did not know what an ISO was.

Why would he? AFAIK, most every computer comes pre-infected with Windows.
No points for you here.

> But Matt did figure out burning, and burned 5 data cd's.
> I let NUT help him out, and he found the setting on Zero.
> 
> Matt would put in the ISO disk.  Nothing happened.
> I let NUT tell Matt to put it in the CD, and reboot.

Same if he'd try to install Windows. No points for you here.
 
> The install, actually, went well, as long as the user got to accept the
> default settings.  Esp. when it came to the Partitions.  There is no
> way Matt could have figured out on his own.

That's why most Linux distributions offer sane defaults for trickier
things like this. Matt would've chosen the default partitioning scheme
with an XP install as well. So again: no points for you here.

> Matt was able to find and use Firefox (1.07) and Open Office.
> 
> Matt tried to print from Open Office, and it did not work.
> Frankly, there is NO WAY Matt could have figured out how
> to set up the Printer, by opening the port, on that little button
> on the lower right of the screen.  (HP PSC 1135)

Without printer driver discs, Matt would never have figured out how to
get the printer to work under Windows either. No points for you here.

> Next, Matt was to visit some web sites, and play video and listen
> to music streams.  Matt's job was to Google and Make this work.
> Didn't get close.  There is NO WAY Matt could have figured this out.

OK, one point for you here. Getting the patent- and license-encumberd
parts of any Linux distribution to work is indeed a bit of a poser for
newbies.

> Next, Matt was to install Java.  To my surprise, Matt did get an RPM,
> and installed Java.  But it did not verify on the www.java.com site.
>
> Matt was to install Opera 8.5, Real Player 10 Gold, and Adobe Acrobat.
> None of these got installed.
> 
> Matt was to upgrade FireFox to 1.5.  This was a failure.  He did find
> an RPM for another distro, but it did not work.
> 
> All in All, it was funny as hell, and there is NO WAY a new user is
> going 
> to use openSUSE 10 without a lot of training.

Ask your average Windows user to do the same chores, and they'll fail
miserably as well. And it takes a little while to get used to the
particulars of any OS and/or distribution. Most people have spent *months*
learning how to do things the Windows way; anything new is subsequently
seen as "difficult", "user-unfriendly", etcetera. Once Matt learns to
fully use Yast (a matter of a few hours), he would have had no trouble at
all with most of the above.

By the way, has Matt managed to get his XP box reasonably secure without
help? I think I just heard a resounding NO. And does he have full control
over his machine and the software on it, without DRM hassle and the likes?
Nope, not at all. And did he manage to get all the software he wants for
free, legally? Was that a big NO again? I thought so. 

So frankly, your "experiment" sucks. You want a real, honest install
comparison? Look here:
http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2004-09-07-024-26-RV-MD-MS


Richard Rasker

-- 
Linetec Translation and Technology Services

http://www.linetec.nl/

0
spamtrap12 (1976)
2/13/2006 1:08:06 AM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:20:23 -0800, tab wrote:

> I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an
> average user COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my
> computer.  I even got the partitions ready.  And I already
> had the iso's downloaded.
> 
> We agreed on a user (Matt),who could do most things in windows,
> and the bet was on.  We could not solve the problem, but
> would help out on installing RPM's and YaST.  We also could
> tell how to ./ a file and unzip a file.
> 
> Matt started in Windows XP.
> 
> It was FUNNY AS HELL.  First, Matt did not know what an ISO was.
> But Matt did figure out burning, and burned 5 data cd's.
> I let NUT help him out, and he found the setting on Zero.
> 
> Matt would put in the ISO disk.  Nothing happened.
> I let NUT tell Matt to put it in the CD, and reboot.
> 
> The install, actually, went well, as long as the user got to accept the
> default settings.  Esp. when it came to the Partitions.  There is no
> way
> Matt could have figured out on his own.
> 
> Matt was able to find and use Firefox (1.07) and Open Office.
> 
> Matt tried to print from Open Office, and it did not work.
> Frankly, there is NO WAY Matt could have figured out how
> to set up the Printer, by opening the port, on that little button
> on the lower right of the screen.  (HP PSC 1135)
> 
> Next, Matt was to visit some web sites, and play video and listen
> to music steams.  Matt's job was to Google and Make this work.
> Didn't get close.  There is NO WAY Matt could have figured this out.
> 
> Next, Matt was to install Java.  To my surprise, Matt did get an RPM,
> and installed Java.  But it did not verify on the www.java.com site.
> 
> Matt was to install Opera 8.5, Real Player 10 Gold, and Adobe Acrobat.
> None of these got installed.
> 
> Matt was to upgrade FireFox to 1.5.  This was a failure.  He did find
> an
> RPM for another distro, but it did not work.
> 
> All in All, it was funny as hell, and there is NO WAY a new user is
> going 
> to use openSUSE 10 without a lot of training.

Installation: I wonder how well he'd have done at installing MS.

Useage: over a year ago I set up Mandrake Linux on the public access
internet computers at the local library. To date there have been NO
complaints. A customer satisfaction survey after about nine months use
showed universal acceptance, and indicated that a number of the patrons
were not aware they were not using MS. The director currently plans a
turnkey installation of four more seats on a Linux multiprocessor box
provided by a Canadian firm (runs RH enterprise) which will tie in to the
patron database to provide controlled content filtering - to be added to
the existing Linux setup.

0
ray65 (5421)
2/13/2006 1:30:15 AM
So let's put this in simple terms.  You had a friend Matt who has been
using Windows XP for about 2 years?  And before that Windows 2000 for
about 3 iears?  And befor that Windows 98 for about 2 years?  And
before that Windows 95 for 3 years?

What is that, about 10 years of experience with Windows?  Most of that
supported by people who had similar amounts of experience with Windows,
and even a few who have been using Windows since 1991, nearly 15 years.

And this person was to be given absolutely no support, even from the
Linux advocate.  This person who didn't even have enough experience to
know how to burn a CD from an ISO file.

And this person, with absolutely no knowledge of Linux, no reference
manuals, no direct guidence except for some really restricted and
extremely limited support, was able to install Linux, get things up and
running, get FireFox up and running, get Open Office up and running,
and get some core functions going.

Then you gave him some assignments which you knew would be challenging,
but refused to permit him the benefit of any experienced support.  I
assume he was also not allowed to google for instructions on how to get
the system going.  And since you were using ISOs, it's pretty obvious
that he was not allowed to consult the installation and configuration
manuals included with the $90 version that would be purchased in a
retail store like CompUSA.

And based on this "Unbiased test" you claim that Windows is superior?

I suppose that you would argue that when your child makes his first
attempt to ride a two-wheel bicycle, that the tricycle is far superior
- after all, what child begins riding a bicycle and doesn't fall the
first few times?

But once the bicycle is mastered, it opens up a universe that wasn't
possible with the tricycle.  Many children continue riding a bicycle
until they are around 16 years old, when they are old enough to drive a
car.  Many of these children ride their bicycles many miles, through
mountains, city streets and suburban neighborhoods.
..
Furthermore, riding the bicycle is a way for children to learn the
rules of the road.  By the time they take the wheel of a car, they have
almost 11 years of experience, learning traffic signals, driving rules,
right of way, and getting familiar with the rules of safety and common
sense.  It is THEN, that these children get behind the wheel of the
car, and with a great deal of careful instruction, learn the process of
controlling the car, and combining these skills with their knowledge of
the rules of the road - which they learned on their bicycles.  The
result is a driver who will generally be able to drive safely and avoid
urgent accidents.

0
rex.ballard (3732)
2/13/2006 1:46:18 AM
B Guff gave it to a GEEK.  Normal user's don't FTP,
and certaily don't set up their email's.

So the story you give is not an average user.

Nice try.

0
2/13/2006 3:48:04 AM
Rex,

You are not getting the picture.
In your quest to defend linux,
the fact of the matter is, linux
almost takes an ADMIN to set up.

Or a lot of training. 

That is what this is about.

0
2/13/2006 3:51:11 AM
Ray too misses the point.  What did you do Ray.
YOU set it up.  We are talking RAY.  

Linux takes an admin to set up.

0
2/13/2006 3:52:22 AM
>What little button on the side of the screen? With Mandriva and Suse, the
>printer should have been set up by just hitting the default buttons.

>And it is very easy to install printers using YaST.

On openSUSE 10/KDE,
you have to open the port Rick.
Or it will not work.

> There is no way a new user can use windows without a lot of training,
> either.

My point is that it usually takes an ADMIN to set up Linux.
Who is going to know to open the printer point?

Most people don't want to GOOGLE for answers.

0
2/13/2006 3:56:06 AM
> So frankly, your "experiment" sucks.

The experiment showed that it will take an Admin to set up linux.
But let us see what you offered.

>As it was, the NIC didn't work under Mandrakelinux either (even though it was correctly >recognized), but upon first boot, this situation was immediately signaled with a 'Failed' >message in an alarming red color.

>You want your computer to behave like a good kid: it should immediately tell you when >something is wrong, and not just after endless digging, pleading and probing on your >behalf.

On Windows, the user knows that it is a driver.
On linux, while it is nice to be told you have issues,
BUT, how the fuck do you fix it?

Right, be king of the GOOGLE.  That is very frustrating.

Then there is setting up mp3 on SUSE, and video players.

Bascially, your counter story is full of dog crap.

0
2/13/2006 4:04:39 AM
B Gruff, after it was all set up, with mp3, mplayer,
java, and I mean us setting up everything, he liked it.

The point is that it will take admin's in Linux to
support user systems.  It is sometimes like that
on Windows, less on Apple.  That is the point.

The machines have to be FULLY SET UP,
for average Joe.  Personally, I don't think 
that it is a bad thing.

0
2/13/2006 4:08:38 AM
tab, why would *anyone* think someone who can't cofnigure their own
email would be able to install, configure and protect any operating
system?

your point is a non starter.

it is like going to a science newsgroup and post:

"hi all, i gave my friend an apple.  when he let go, it didn't float
into the sky."

dude, you have some serious issues.  i think you make the avg linux
geek look like freaking don juan with the ladies...

get out more, just stay away from my neighborhood.

0
skillet3232 (298)
2/13/2006 5:27:52 AM
rex, you are not getting the whole picture.  tab still rides a tricycle
and he thinks it *is* better than a bicycle.  after all, he still can't
ride one of those.

also, i don't think he said windows was better in this regard - i don't
think he had a point at all.  not a rational one.

his point, summed up in a nutshell, is that a person who is unable to
configure his own email  will not be able to install, configure and
secure a linux OS.

apparently, he thinks this is thesis material.

0
skillet3232 (298)
2/13/2006 5:33:06 AM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:20:23 -0800, tab wrote:

> Snip <


Ok lets see Matt install Windows XP on most modern hardware that comes
with PC's now a days?

You think Matt would be able to hunt down the vendors sata drivers and be
able to know to hit F6 in the 2.5 seconds you have to install a 3rd
part controller driver when booting a Windows XPee install. Hell I bet
"Matt" (probably your floor matt) would never get past the install screen.
Think Matt could also hunt down and install network card drivers? 


You really can not blame Linux for Java, Realplayer and Acrobat plugins.
These are diffucult to install on Linux because these 3rd party 
vendors make them hard to install on Linux. 


See the point here Tabby? Both OS's have their down side and both can be
very difficult to do things in. Doing a base install of Linux is and can
be much easier that Windows, setting up web plugging and software outside
of a distro can be very difficult on Linux. 






0
freeride (1073)
2/13/2006 7:27:57 AM
"tab" <trentallenblack@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1139802742.333627.228690
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Ray too misses the point.  What did you do Ray.
> YOU set it up.  We are talking RAY.  
> 
> Linux takes an admin to set up.
> 
> 
I would disagree with that, anyone capable of installing Windows will be 
capable of installing Linux.

In addition, your experiment was rigged to get the result you wanted. You 
supplied the ISO files, thus ensuring that your vict^H^H subject would 
not be able to see the explanatory text given at 

"http://www.novell.com/products/suselinux/downloads/suse_linux/instructio
ns_eval.html"

Which would have given him a big clue in what to do with an ISO file.

Further, you deliberately picked applications for him to install that 
were more difficult for a new user.

Basically, you decided in advance what you wanted this "experiment" to 
show and set about getting that result.  Not a fair test at all.

0
usenet5048 (1061)
2/13/2006 9:25:47 AM
tab wrote:

> Rex,
> 
> You are not getting the picture.
> In your quest to defend linux,
> the fact of the matter is, linux
> almost takes an ADMIN to set up.
> 
> Or a lot of training.
> 
> That is what this is about.

Ever tried installing windows NT/2000? It's WAY harder then installing any
"user friendly" distro. While I agree that installing, say, Gentoo requires
a bit of work(*), there are distros that can be installed in only a few
clicks. 

(*) but can nevertheless be done by anyone who knows how to read and is
willing to learn something
0
nospam34 (89)
2/13/2006 9:40:51 AM
Freeride wrote:

> See the point here Tabby? Both OS's have their down side and both can be
> very difficult to do things in. Doing a base install of Linux is and can
> be much easier that Windows, setting up web plugging and software outside
> of a distro can be very difficult on Linux.

And more and more people will just not bother trying to access sites
requiring such plug-in's.  Google, Yahoo and many others do not require
them.

0
peterwn (676)
2/13/2006 9:48:27 AM
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:40:51 +0000, becco wrote:

> tab wrote:
> 
>> Rex,
>> 
>> You are not getting the picture.
>> In your quest to defend linux,
>> the fact of the matter is, linux
>> almost takes an ADMIN to set up.
>> 
>> Or a lot of training.
>> 
>> That is what this is about.

Utter bullshit. 

> Ever tried installing windows NT/2000? It's WAY harder then installing any
> "user friendly" distro. While I agree that installing, say, Gentoo
> requires a bit of work(*), there are distros that can be installed in only
> a few clicks.
> 
> (*) but can nevertheless be done by anyone who knows how to read and is
> willing to learn something

Which tab isn't, he's just trolling.

-- 
V.I.S.T.A
Viruses
Intruders
Spyware
Trojans
Adware
0
William
2/13/2006 10:52:50 AM
Op Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:04:39 -0800, schreef tab:

>> So frankly, your "experiment" sucks.
> 
> The experiment showed that it will take an Admin to set up linux.

And I showed that it takes an admin as well to set up Windows.

> But let us see what you offered.
> 
>>As it was, the NIC didn't work under Mandrakelinux either (even though
>>it was correctly >recognized), but upon first boot, this situation was
>>immediately signaled with a 'Failed' >message in an alarming red color.
> 
>>You want your computer to behave like a good kid: it should immediately
>>tell you when >something is wrong, and not just after endless digging,
>>pleading and probing on your >behalf.
> 
> On Windows, the user knows that it is a driver. 

Now on what premise do you base that? On Windows, the average user knows
nothing about drivers, unless (s)he has admin experience. And believe me,
in the past, I've helped countless people with complaints such as "Help!
My modem/printer/scanner/whatever doesn't work! What should I do?".

My experiment showed that Windows fails miserably in telling the user what
is wrong. XP said *nothing* about hardware found, but not supported.
Faulty NIC? XP just launches the stupid Network Setup Wizard time and
again, and says everything is fine. Unsupported sound chip? Tough luck,
it's up to the user to find out that there's no sound, and why. No USB
functionality? XP didn't warn once that it found something it couldn't
deal with.

> On linux, while it is nice to be told you have issues, BUT, how the
> fuck do you fix it?
> 
> Right, be king of the GOOGLE.  That is very frustrating.

Setting up and troubleshooting computers isn't some inate talent;
*everyone* who does it, has spent time learning it. And although the
installation part may be more or less a draw between Windows and Linux,
when it comes to troubleshooting, Linux is far superior, beyond any doubt.
Windows says nothing, or makes you jump through all the wrong hoops; the
Help system is, toput it mildly, not helpful at all (by my knowledge, it
*never* helped anyone solve a real problem).
Linux tells you what it found wrong, and even though that the average user
won't have a clue what it's about, Googling for the error message and
reading *other people's* experience with same are infinitely more helpful
than a list of standard "help" issues, which, of course, never address
your particular problem. 

The latter has nothing to do with bad design; if you write software, and
do it well, you make sure it handles any problem you anticipate - which
makes the Help system superfluous. And by their very nature, anything you
*didn't* anticipate won't fit any of a Help system's items. 
So in fact, a troubleshooting Help system is only useful if you have
sloppy software containing lots of known bugs, which you can't or don't
want to fix.

> Then there is setting up mp3 on SUSE, and video players.
> 
> Bascially, your counter story is full of dog crap.

Well, that's real life for you. And I thought that I was quite balanced
and mild in my verdict. I didn't say that Windows was crap, just that it
isn't very user-friendly on certain occasions - but I said the same about
Mandrake. If there's any story of mine not trash-talking Windows (and
often rightly so, in my opinion), this is it.

But then again, I guess nothing short of an Absolute, Glorious Victory of
Windows on Every Occasion could please you ...

Well then, you use Windows, I'll use Linux, and we're both happy.

Richard Rasker

-- 
Linetec Translation and Technology Services

http://www.linetec.nl/

0
spamtrap12 (1976)
2/13/2006 11:49:15 AM
On Monday 13 February 2006 03:48 tab wrote:

> B Guff gave it to a GEEK.  Normal user's don't FTP,
> and certaily don't set up their email's.
> 
> So the story you give is not an average user.
> 
> Nice try.

Steady - are we talking Normal User, Average User, or what?

I told you, this guy is a very experienced Windows user, sets up and uses
Access for stuff at work, and so on.  Not a programmer though, not a Sys.
Admin or anything.  Has learned all he knows by himself.

You say Normal Users don't FTP.  Last Autumn, this guy wanted (using
Windows)  to set up a simple web-site (on his ISP account) for family use. 
I pointed him to a couple of FTP clients, and he sorted that out for
himself.  He complained about Word and FrontPage as HTML editors, so I
pointed him to Nvu (for Windows).  He sorted that.
He'd already found Firefox (Windows) for himself.  I'd joked about OE as an
e-mail client.  He'd changed to Thunderbird - again, under Windows.

You amaze me when you say "Normal" users don't set up their e-mail.
What DO they do?  Have somebody set it up for them?
Really, if YOU are talking about somebody who can't even set up their ISP
e-mail account, I don't think you should be expecting them to do a
dual-boot Linux install by themselves by burning ISOs!

I must admit, I was pleasantly surprised that he did so well so quickly with
SUSE, but there again, he's not from Ohio:-)

0
bbgruff (6628)
2/13/2006 12:29:56 PM
On Monday 13 February 2006 04:08 tab wrote:

> B Gruff, after it was all set up, with mp3, mplayer,
> java, and I mean us setting up everything, he liked it.
> 
> The point is that it will take admin's in Linux to
> support user systems.  It is sometimes like that
> on Windows, less on Apple.  That is the point.
> 
> The machines have to be FULLY SET UP,
> for average Joe.  Personally, I don't think
> that it is a bad thing.

I don't agree with your "admin" statement, but quite an experienced user,
I'll grant, to set up a system.  That applies to Windows as well as Linux.
If your point is that the proverbial Joe Six Pack needs the system
installing for him to get him going, yes, I'd tend to agree - for *either*
OS.

However, having installed both myself, and having *much* more experience of
Windows than Linux, I'm strongly of the opinion that it is *much* easier to
install (say) SUSE from scratch and get a working system than it is (say)
W2K on the same machine.

0
bbgruff (6628)
2/13/2006 12:39:28 PM
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:29:56 +0000, B Gruff wrote:

> On Monday 13 February 2006 03:48 tab wrote:
> 
>> B Guff gave it to a GEEK.  Normal user's don't FTP, and certaily don't
>> set up their email's.
>> 
>> So the story you give is not an average user.
>> 
>> Nice try.
> 
> Steady - are we talking Normal User, Average User, or what?
> 
> I told you, this guy is a very experienced Windows user, sets up and uses
> Access for stuff at work, and so on.  Not a programmer though, not a Sys.
> Admin or anything.  Has learned all he knows by himself.
> 
> You say Normal Users don't FTP.  Last Autumn, this guy wanted (using
> Windows)  to set up a simple web-site (on his ISP account) for family use.
> I pointed him to a couple of FTP clients, and he sorted that out for
> himself.  He complained about Word and FrontPage as HTML editors, so I
> pointed him to Nvu (for Windows).  He sorted that. He'd already found
> Firefox (Windows) for himself.  I'd joked about OE as an e-mail client. 
> He'd changed to Thunderbird - again, under Windows.
> 
> You amaze me when you say "Normal" users don't set up their e-mail. What
> DO they do?  Have somebody set it up for them? 

Which just goes to show what utter bullshit 'tab' spews out.

> Really, if YOU are talking
> about somebody who can't even set up their ISP e-mail account, I don't
> think you should be expecting them to do a dual-boot Linux install by
> themselves by burning ISOs!
> 
> I must admit, I was pleasantly surprised that he did so well so quickly
> with SUSE, but there again, he's not from Ohio:-)

-- 
V.I.S.T.A
Viruses
Intruders
Spyware
Trojans
Adware
0
William
2/13/2006 1:20:19 PM
tab <trentallenblack@yahoo.com> did eloquently scribble:
> 
> 
>> So frankly, your "experiment" sucks.
> 
> The experiment showed that it will take an Admin to set up linux.
> But let us see what you offered.

No no...
Let's see more of what YOU offer.
Take a different bloke with similar "experience" using windows, if you can
call using windows apps "windows experience"...

And have him install windows XP
Same conditions, no help, in fact, as you have to give him CDs rather than
ISOs, LESS help, don't tell him anything about setting things up. Just give
him the cds, the computer and leave him too it...

See how far he gets, remember, the same results are required. He has to have
a working internet connection, browser, e-mail, full office suit and
multimedia (and whatever else your previous test requirements were) at the
end of it.

-- 
______________________________________________________________________________
|   spike1@freenet.co.uk   |                                                 |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't |
|            in            |  suck is probably the day they start making     |
|     Computer science     |  vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0
spike1 (8171)
2/13/2006 1:47:58 PM
B Gruff wrote:
> 
> You amaze me when you say "Normal" users don't set up their e-mail.
> What DO they do?  Have somebody set it up for them?

Actually here in the UK, "average" users who get their Internet
connection through Wanadoo (Freeserve as was), NTL, BT Yahoo and Tiscali
(to name a few) get a CD or downloadable config file that does
everything for them, including setting email accounts, and branding IE!


--
Registered Linux User no 240308
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!
0
gordon7256 (250)
2/13/2006 2:13:56 PM
On Monday 13 February 2006 14:13 Gordon wrote:

> B Gruff wrote:
>> 
>> You amaze me when you say "Normal" users don't set up their e-mail.
>> What DO they do?  Have somebody set it up for them?
> 
> Actually here in the UK, "average" users who get their Internet
> connection through Wanadoo (Freeserve as was), NTL, BT Yahoo and Tiscali
> (to name a few) get a CD or downloadable config file that does
> everything for them, including setting email accounts, and branding IE!

That's probably true!
- and ("here in the UK as well"!) I keep telling people *not* to do that!

In fact, Gordon, is this the origin of statements like "My ISP doesn't
support Linux"?  They mean that the CD and the kids on the help line are
available only for Windows?  What I always find is that everything one
needs (all the names of servers etc.) is available on the ISP's web-site. 
It's just that those with the "CD offering" seem to hide it a bit:-)

Going back to topic though, I still mainain that if somebody can't set up an
e-mail account for themselves, they can't be expected to install an OS!
(but it's perhaps no use telling tab that)

0
bbgruff (6628)
2/13/2006 2:52:42 PM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:52:22 -0800, tab wrote:

> Ray too misses the point.  What did you do Ray.
> YOU set it up.  We are talking RAY.  
> 
> Linux takes an admin to set up.

So does MS. IMHO - it is no more difficult to install and setup Linux than
MS - it's a little different, and often easier.

0
ray65 (5421)
2/13/2006 4:26:08 PM
tab wrote:
> I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an
> average user COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my
> computer.  I even got the partitions ready.  And I already
> had the iso's downloaded.
> 
> We agreed on a user (Matt),who could do most things in windows,
> and the bet was on.  We could not solve the problem, but
> would help out on installing RPM's and YaST.  We also could
> tell how to ./ a file and unzip a file.
> 
> Matt started in Windows XP.
> 
> It was FUNNY AS HELL.  First, Matt did not know what an ISO was.
> But Matt did figure out burning, and burned 5 data cd's.
> I let NUT help him out, and he found the setting on Zero.
> 
> Matt would put in the ISO disk.  Nothing happened.
> I let NUT tell Matt to put it in the CD, and reboot.
> 
> The install, actually, went well, as long as the user got to accept the
> default settings.  Esp. when it came to the Partitions.  There is no
> way
> Matt could have figured out on his own.
> 
> Matt was able to find and use Firefox (1.07) and Open Office.
> 
> Matt tried to print from Open Office, and it did not work.
> Frankly, there is NO WAY Matt could have figured out how
> to set up the Printer, by opening the port, on that little button
> on the lower right of the screen.  (HP PSC 1135)
> 
> Next, Matt was to visit some web sites, and play video and listen
> to music steams.  Matt's job was to Google and Make this work.
> Didn't get close.  There is NO WAY Matt could have figured this out.
> 
> Next, Matt was to install Java.  To my surprise, Matt did get an RPM,
> and installed Java.  But it did not verify on the www.java.com site.
> 
> Matt was to install Opera 8.5, Real Player 10 Gold, and Adobe Acrobat.
> None of these got installed.
> 
> Matt was to upgrade FireFox to 1.5.  This was a failure.  He did find
> an
> RPM for another distro, but it did not work.
> 
> All in All, it was funny as hell, and there is NO WAY a new user is
> going 
> to use openSUSE 10 without a lot of training.
> 
Wow, a total newbie managed to install an operating system without 
instructions and input only from tab? I'm amazed at how far along SuSE 
is. I mean, your average user would choke at having to do a Windows 
install (hence why scams like 'Geek Squad' can get away with charging 
$200+ for an operating system install), yet a newbie can install SuSE 
with only an idiot for guidance!

-- 
"There is nothing I understand." - Shit
0
theletterk3 (2489)
2/13/2006 4:33:19 PM
B Gruff wrote:
> On Monday 13 February 2006 03:48 tab wrote:
> 
>> B Guff gave it to a GEEK.  Normal user's don't FTP,
>> and certaily don't set up their email's.
>>
>> So the story you give is not an average user.
>>
>> Nice try.
> 
> Steady - are we talking Normal User, Average User, or what?
> 
> I told you, this guy is a very experienced Windows user, sets up and uses
> Access for stuff at work, and so on.  Not a programmer though, not a Sys.
> Admin or anything.  Has learned all he knows by himself.
> 
> You say Normal Users don't FTP.  Last Autumn, this guy wanted (using
> Windows)  to set up a simple web-site (on his ISP account) for family use. 
> I pointed him to a couple of FTP clients, and he sorted that out for
> himself.  He complained about Word and FrontPage as HTML editors, so I
> pointed him to Nvu (for Windows).  He sorted that.
> He'd already found Firefox (Windows) for himself.  I'd joked about OE as an
> e-mail client.  He'd changed to Thunderbird - again, under Windows.
> 
> You amaze me when you say "Normal" users don't set up their e-mail.
> What DO they do?  Have somebody set it up for them?
> Really, if YOU are talking about somebody who can't even set up their ISP
> e-mail account, I don't think you should be expecting them to do a
> dual-boot Linux install by themselves by burning ISOs!

Maybe we should give Novell a new slogan: "SuSE; easier than e-mail!"

> 
> I must admit, I was pleasantly surprised that he did so well so quickly with
> SUSE, but there again, he's not from Ohio:-)
> 


-- 
"There is nothing I understand." - Shit
0
theletterk3 (2489)
2/13/2006 4:43:22 PM
On Monday 13 February 2006 13:39, B Gruff stood up and spoke the
following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/

> On Monday 13 February 2006 04:08 tab wrote:
> 
>> B Gruff, after it was all set up, with mp3, mplayer,
>> java, and I mean us setting up everything, he liked it.
>> 
>> The point is that it will take admin's in Linux to
>> support user systems.  It is sometimes like that
>> on Windows, less on Apple.  That is the point.
>> 
>> The machines have to be FULLY SET UP,
>> for average Joe.  Personally, I don't think
>> that it is a bad thing.
> 
> I don't agree with your "admin" statement, but quite an experienced
> user, I'll grant, to set up a system.  That applies to Windows as well
> as Linux. If your point is that the proverbial Joe Six Pack needs the
> system installing for him to get him going, yes, I'd tend to agree -
> for *either* OS.

/Average/ /Joe/ is a very lazy person, and is not at all interested in
learning anything technical.  However, Windows is so ubiquitous that
most /AJ's/ are already familiar with it from prior experiences at
school or at work, where they _had_ to force themselves to learn how to
use it.

> However, having installed both myself, and having *much* more
> experience of Windows than Linux, I'm strongly of the opinion that it
> is *much* easier to install (say) SUSE from scratch and get a working
> system than it is (say) W2K on the same machine.

I don't have much experience in installing Windows, except for the
occasional - and past tense - installations of Windows 98 SE on the
machines of relatives and customers, and my own past experiences at
installing Windows NT 4.0 and even 3.0 and 3.1 once upon a very long
time ago.

I do however find that installing GNU/Linux is much more comprehensible,
faster - it doesn't need any time- and nerve-consuming reboots - and
that it's far more pleasant in general.  There is both much more
control and much more userfriendliness, i.e. you get to deal with all
that's needed, and not with what's not.

Oh, and there are no ridiculous Microsoft-inspired names for devices or
services either.  I guess those expensive names are included in the
retail price of a Windows license.  It would sure explain things.
<grin>

-- 
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered GNU/Linux user #223157)
0
stryder (1500)
2/13/2006 5:29:49 PM
On 2006-02-12, tab <trentallenblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I challenged a linux nut (NUT), from Washington DC, that an
> average user COULD NOT set up openSUSE 10 on my
> computer.  I even got the partitions ready.  And I already
> had the iso's downloaded.

	It's not like an average user could set up Windows on your
machine, so what's the point of this excercise beyond being a big
fat red herring?
	
[deletia]

-- 
....as if the ability to run Cubase ever made or broke a platform.
                                                                  |||
	                                                         / | \
0
jedi (14754)
2/13/2006 5:43:02 PM
On 2006-02-13, tab <trentallenblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rex,
>
> You are not getting the picture.
> In your quest to defend linux,
> the fact of the matter is, linux
> almost takes an ADMIN to set up.

	It takes a sysadmin to install an Operating System.

	Big news flash there </not>.

	Even if you don't have any show stopper technical issues
you still have to deal with system configuration choices on an
abstract level.

	Someone using a printer or scanner or digital photos might 
also need to <GASP> understand the difference between 100dpi, 
300dpi and 600dpi are and what color depths mean.

>
> Or a lot of training. 
>
> That is what this is about.
>


-- 
....as if the ability to run Cubase ever made or broke a platform.
                                                                  |||
	                                                         / | \
0
jedi (14754)
2/13/2006 5:52:03 PM
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:25:47 +0000, Jamie Hart wrote:


> 
> Basically, you decided in advance what you wanted this "experiment" to 
> show and set about getting that result.  Not a fair test at all.

Typical Micros~1 behaviour, wouldn't you say?

-- 
Registered Linux User no 240308
Ubuntu 5.10
gordonDOTburgessparkerATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me replace the obvious!

0
gordon7256 (250)
2/13/2006 7:40:57 PM
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:52:42 +0000, B Gruff wrote:

> On Monday 13 February 2006 14:13 Gordon wrote:
> 
>> B Gruff wrote:
>>> 
>>> You amaze me when you say "Normal" users don't set up their e-mail.
>>> What DO they do?  Have somebody set it up for them?
>> 
>> Actually here in the UK, "average" users who get their Internet
>> connection through Wanadoo (Freeserve as was), NTL, BT Yahoo and Tiscali
>> (to name a few) get a CD or downloadable config file that does
>> everything for them, including setting email accounts, and branding IE!
> 
> That's probably true!
> - and ("here in the UK as well"!) I keep telling people *not* to do that!

So do I! However, it's not as easy as that. I recently used my machine to
pre-set up an email account on Wanadoo for my brother-in-law who has a
problem with life generally, never mind computers! You are obliged to
download the config file, but not install it. However, it's not in ant
recognised format, and it's quite difficult to extract the account
information from it. (You can't get that information from the website
until the account is set up and activated!)

> 
> In fact, Gordon, is this the origin of statements like "My ISP doesn't
> support Linux"?  They mean that the CD and the kids on the help line are
> available only for Windows?  What I always find is that everything one
> needs (all the names of servers etc.) is available on the ISP's web-site. 
> It's just that those with the "CD offering" seem to hide it a bit:-)

See above.........

> 
> Going back to topic though, I still mainain that if somebody can't set up an
> e-mail account for themselves, they can't be expected to install an OS!
> (but it's perhaps no use telling tab that)

Absolutely! But with a blank HDD, (K)Ubuntu is probably the easiest OS I
have EVER installed - and that goes right back to Windows 3.11!

-- 
Registered Linux User no 240308Ubuntu 5.10
gordonDOTburgessparkerATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me replace the obvious!

0
gordon7256 (250)
2/13/2006 7:45:26 PM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:56:06 -0800, tab wrote:

>>What little button on the side of the screen? With Mandriva and Suse, the
>>printer should have been set up by just hitting the default buttons.
> 
>>And it is very easy to install printers using YaST.
> 
> On openSUSE 10/KDE,
> you have to open the port Rick.
> Or it will not work.

Then this is new to OpenSuse 10.

> 
>> There is no way a new user can use windows without a lot of training,
>> either.
> 
> My point is that it usually takes an ADMIN to set up Linux.

No, it does not.

> Who is going to know to open the printer point?

I'll won't know what you are talking about until I install OpenSuse 10,
but I have the feeling you've messed something up... again.

> 
> Most people don't want to GOOGLE for answers.

-- 
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>

0
trollfeed (965)
2/13/2006 10:02:54 PM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:08:38 -0800, tab wrote:

> B Gruff, after it was all set up, with mp3, mplayer, java, and I mean us
> setting up everything, he liked it.
> 
> The point is that it will take admin's in Linux to support user systems. 

.... depending on what you call admins.

> It is sometimes like that on Windows, less on Apple.  That is the point.
> 
> The machines have to be FULLY SET UP, for average Joe.  Personally, I
> don't think that it is a bad thing.

Then why are you bitching?

-- 
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>

0
trollfeed (965)
2/13/2006 10:03:46 PM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:48:04 -0800, tab wrote:

> B Guff gave it to a GEEK.  Normal user's don't FTP, and certaily don't set
> up their email's.

Who sets up their emails?

> 
> So the story you give is not an average user.
> 
> Nice try.

-- 
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>

0
trollfeed (965)
2/13/2006 10:04:57 PM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:51:11 -0800, tab wrote:

> Rex,
> 
> You are not getting the picture.
> In your quest to defend linux,
> the fact of the matter is, linux
> almost takes an ADMIN to set up.
> 
> Or a lot of training.
> 
> That is what this is about.

The fact of the matter is, windows  almost takes an ADMIN to set up or a
lot of training.

-- 
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>

0
trollfeed (965)
2/13/2006 10:06:09 PM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:52:22 -0800, tab wrote:

> Ray too misses the point.  What did you do Ray. YOU set it up.  We are
> talking RAY.
> 
> Linux takes an admin to set up.

No more than windows.

-- 
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>

0
trollfeed (965)
2/13/2006 10:06:34 PM
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:04:39 -0800, tab wrote:

>> So frankly, your "experiment" sucks.
> 
> The experiment showed that it will take an Admin to set up linux. But let
> us see what you offered.
> 
>>As it was, the NIC didn't work under Mandrakelinux either (even though it
>>was correctly >recognized), but upon first boot, this situation was
>>immediately signaled with a 'Failed' >message in an alarming red color.
> 
>>You want your computer to behave like a good kid: it should immediately
>>tell you when >something is wrong, and not just after endless digging,
>>pleading and probing on your >behalf.
> 
> On Windows, the user knows that it is a driver. 

.... and just how does the user know that?

> On linux, while it is nice
> to be told you have issues, BUT, how the fuck do you fix it?

Easily.

> 
> Right, be king of the GOOGLE.  That is very frustrating.
> 
> Then there is setting up mp3 on SUSE, and video players.

Yeah.. it's really hard hitting a few buttons in YaST.

> 
> Bascially, your counter story is full of dog crap.

-- 
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>

0
trollfeed (965)
2/13/2006 10:07:57 PM
tab wrote:

> Rex,
> 
> You are not getting the picture.
> In your quest to defend linux,
> the fact of the matter is, linux
> almost takes an ADMIN to set up.
> 
> Or a lot of training. 
> 
> That is what this is about.
> 

You're a bit of a broken record.

And I would like to know who set up my Ubuntu box at home then?

Hell multimedia web browsing works on it, and doesn't (fully) work on my 
xp box.

Ryan

-- 
Normal user's don't FTP, and certaily don't set up their email's.

-tab-
0
2/14/2006 12:58:20 AM
Try and let those same jokers install Windows from the CD and get all the
hardware up and working.
0
NoWay2 (985)
2/14/2006 2:57:48 AM
Gordon <gordon@localhost.localdomain> wrote in 
news:pan.2006.02.13.19.40.57.8541@localhost.localdomain:

> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:25:47 +0000, Jamie Hart wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Basically, you decided in advance what you wanted this "experiment" to 
>> show and set about getting that result.  Not a fair test at all.
> 
> Typical Micros~1 behaviour, wouldn't you say?
> 

I couldn't possibly comment :)
0
usenet5048 (1061)
2/14/2006 10:39:21 AM
On 12 Feb 2006 19:51:11 -0800, "tab"
<trentallenblack@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Rex,
>
>You are not getting the picture.
>In your quest to defend linux,
>the fact of the matter is, linux
>almost takes an ADMIN to set up.
>
>Or a lot of training. 
>
>That is what this is about.

You are not comparing the same things.

Most of the people using windows never had to set up their
computer in the first place. They bought the 'puter, plugged
it in and played with it a bit until the cable guy came and
connected it to the net for them. They give the guy their
dog's name as the password and never think about it again.
If they get another box, they phone their ISP and they give
set by step instructions to reconnect.

These people would have the same problems installing windows
from scratch as they would installing linux. Imagine if they
had to get into bios to change the boot settings. Now that's
a scary thought.

Because most computers come with windows pre-installed by
default, the new linux user is faced with dual booting and
partitioning.

A better comparison would be to give someone two identical
boxes. One with linux and one with windows... each
pre-installed. Have them do some surfing, emailing, letter
writing, music playing, etc. etc.

Then clean both boxes and give them two cd's and have them
install each OS from scratch. Throw in a D-Link DFE-538TX
nic for good measure (this card is NOT recognized by WinXP
but it offers to get ONLINE to find a driver....hehehe).

The only thing that windows has over linux is the plethora
of clickable links on the internet to install stuff and
that's why I get called upon to clean up all the junk they
have running on their machines. Many is the time I've had to
resort to a brand new install.

BTW, the help files are completely useless in windows.

On the whole, from my limited experience with the current
linux's, I found them way less difficult to install than
win98 or NT.

I salvage old boxes, fix them up, install 98 and give them
to poor kids who otherwise would not have a computer. It is
a real treat finding windows drivers for no-name
motherboards and cards. I'm thinking about using linux
'puppy' on some of the older boxes (when I get a little more
linux knowlege) and see how that works out with the kids.
They have little to no experience on a computer at all.
0
not32 (1022)
2/17/2006 7:58:56 AM
Reply: