f



Windows, Mac, Linux market share over the last year

My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
statistical inferences. 

Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
report. 

I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.

Market Share Percentage 

OS           Last Year  This Year   Change
Windows        93.00%     86.37%   Down 7.5%
Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74%  
Linux           0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%

The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
of all, by over 3x in one year. 

If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
rate should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too
small to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.

i
0
Ignoramus8004
9/23/2009 9:46:39 PM
comp.os.linux.advocacy 124139 articles. 3 followers. Post Follow

945 Replies
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On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:

> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per week,
> so it is a good number that we can use to make various statistical
> inferences.
> 
> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system report.
> 
> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
> 
> Market Share Percentage
> 
> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%    
> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux   
>        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
> 
> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
> of all, by over 3x in one year.
> 
> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth rate
> should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too small
> to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to adopt.
> This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at a slower
> pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
> 
> i

Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
slightly.



-- 
d.b. cooper
===========
somewhere in oregon
0
db3602 (7)
9/23/2009 9:51:46 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:

> Market Share Percentage
> 
> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%    
> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux   
>        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%

96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.

-- 
Moog

"Some mornings it doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through 
the leather straps"
0
efcmoog1 (19)
9/23/2009 9:53:48 PM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
> statistical inferences. 
> 
> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
> report. 
> 
> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
> 
> Market Share Percentage 
> 
> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change
> Windows        93.00%     86.37%   Down 7.5%
> Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74%  
> Linux           0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
> 
> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
> of all, by over 3x in one year. 
> 
> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
> rate should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too
> small to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
> 
> i

Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about 
MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
Most Linux distros have come a long way. People who try it now are less 
put off as they were in the past. There is still much to learn in Linux 
if you want to make full use of it. With Windows, there is no other way 
to use it.
0
9/23/2009 10:09:01 PM

"Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
> statistical inferences.
>
> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
> report.
>
> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>
> Market Share Percentage
>
> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change
> Windows        93.00%     86.37%   Down 7.5%
> Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74%
> Linux           0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>
> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
> of all, by over 3x in one year.

The obvious conclusion is that your maths needs fixing. ;-)

 

0
dennis45 (490)
9/23/2009 10:12:33 PM

"Moog" <efcmoog@gmail.invalid> wrote in message 
news:h9e5dc$vl5$3@news.datemas.de...
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>
>> Market Share Percentage
>>
>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%
>> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux
>>        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>
> 96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.

The rest get the maths wrong as in this case.  ;-)

 

0
dennis45 (490)
9/23/2009 10:13:32 PM
On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>
> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
> slightly.

Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).

i
0
Ignoramus8004
9/23/2009 10:14:49 PM
"Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
news:UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>
>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness
>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however
>> slightly.
>
> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows.

Will curtains be included?

> This will get us
> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).

Beer is free?    When did that start?   I'm due lots of refunds!

> i
-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/23/2009 10:26:49 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:13:32 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

> "Moog" <efcmoog@gmail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:h9e5dc$vl5$3@news.datemas.de...
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>
>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>
>>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%
>>> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux
>>>        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>>
>> 96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.
> 
> The rest get the maths wrong as in this case.  ;-)

Computers, innit?

You chuck shit in, you get shit out.

-- 
Moog

"Some mornings it doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through 
the leather straps"
0
efcmoog1 (19)
9/23/2009 10:33:49 PM
On 09/23/2009 06:26 PM, Rotten Apple wrote:
> "Ignoramus8004"<ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid>  wrote in message
> news:UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper<db@cooper.net>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness
>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however
>>> slightly.
>>
>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows.
>
> Will curtains be included?
>
>> This will get us
>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>
> Beer is free?    When did that start?   I'm due lots of refunds!
>
>
I think it was meant that you would be more free to choose amongst OS's 
in a fair and open market without problems associated with a monopoly. 
Think of going to a market to buy beer and it's all mostly one brand. 
There's another brand with higher quality that's got a small portion of 
the market but they make you buy their mugs to drink the stuff and it 
won't pour into other mugs at all. Outside along the highway there's 
people giving a decent brand of beer away that comes in many flavors but 
you have to pour the dominant brand out of a mug first before you can 
drink the free of cost stuff. OK the analogy is faltering...

You can buy Bud or Guinness or brew your own beer at home. It involves 
an investment (time and/or money) either way, but you've got the freedom 
to choose and the beer market isn't skewed in any one direction. Open 
source is like home brewing (I guess).

0
ecphoric (303)
9/23/2009 10:46:40 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote
(in article <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):

> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>> slightly.
> 
> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).

Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/23/2009 10:52:59 PM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:

Warning, pedantic analysis ahead.  Fasten seatbelt.

> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
> rate should be even better. 

Quality has no bearing on whether something is popular or not, else 
McDonald's would be serving Kobe filet mignon.

It is also curious that various people write/talk ("Linux manages" - 
Linux does WHAT?) as if Linux (and they inclued ALL the applications) is 
some sort of monolithic autonomous sentient entity.

Open Source in general keeps getting better.

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/172469/study_shows_opensource_code_quality_improving.html


> It is still small, but it is no longer too
> small to ignore it.

Microsoft recognized Linux as a threat 11 years ago.  c.f. "Halloween 
Documents"

> And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
> hardware manufacturers

It's runs on everything from embedded systems to the Top500.

>, websites etc, then it will be easier to
> adopt.

"Forty percent of servers run Windows, 60 percent run Linux," he said. 
"How are we doing? Forty is less than 60, so I don't like it. ... We 
have some work to do." - Steve Ballmer

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/151568/ballmer_still_searching_for_an_answer_to_google.html

> This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.

And adoption is not as slow as some (NetApplications) make it out to be.

-- 
BMO
0
bmo1 (4)
9/23/2009 10:53:33 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:13:32 -0700, dennis@home wrote
(in article <h9e6ib$hiv$1@news.datemas.de>):

> 
> 
> "Moog" <efcmoog@gmail.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:h9e5dc$vl5$3@news.datemas.de...
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> 
>>> Market Share Percentage
>>> 
>>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%
>>> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux
>>> 0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>> 
>> 96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.
> 
> The rest get the maths wrong as in this case.  ;-)
> 
>  
> 

What's "maths"? Not to be unkind or anything, but this is the second or third 
time you've used the word like that. FYI, "math", as short for "mathematics", 
is already a plural. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/23/2009 10:56:58 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:53:48 +0000, Moog wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> 
>> Market Share Percentage
>> 
>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00% 86.37%
>>   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux
>>        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
> 
> 96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.

Yes, but only 17.1% of people know this and only 33.7% believe that.



-- 
Change I can believe in? CONGRESSIONAL TERM LIMITS!
0
nobby9297 (1)
9/23/2009 10:58:38 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:53:33 -0700, Boyle M. Owl wrote
(in article <h9e8te$ddl$1@news.eternal-september.org>):

> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> 
> Warning, pedantic analysis ahead.  Fasten seatbelt.
> 
>> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
>> rate should be even better. 
> 
> Quality has no bearing on whether something is popular or not, else 
> McDonald's would be serving Kobe filet mignon.
> 
> It is also curious that various people write/talk ("Linux manages" - 
> Linux does WHAT?) as if Linux (and they inclued ALL the applications) is 
> some sort of monolithic autonomous sentient entity.
> 
> Open Source in general keeps getting better.
> 
> 
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/172469/study_shows_opensource_co

> de_quality_improving.html
> 
> 
>> It is still small, but it is no longer too
>> small to ignore it.
> 
> Microsoft recognized Linux as a threat 11 years ago.  c.f. "Halloween 
> Documents"
> 
>> And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
>> hardware manufacturers
> 
> It's runs on everything from embedded systems to the Top500.
> 
>> , websites etc, then it will be easier to
>> adopt.
> 
> "Forty percent of servers run Windows, 60 percent run Linux," he said. 
> "How are we doing? Forty is less than 60, so I don't like it. ... We 
> have some work to do." - Steve Ballmer

Oh, no doubt about it that Linux is the BEST server OS. It's stable, has 
powerful multitasking, and it's free. Take a cheap Winbox, put Ubuntu on it 
running Apache, and you've got a first rate server. Can't imagine why anyone 
would want to run anything else. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/23/2009 11:02:12 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:56:58 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:13:32 -0700, dennis@home wrote (in article
> <h9e6ib$hiv$1@news.datemas.de>):
> 
> 
>> 
>> "Moog" <efcmoog@gmail.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:h9e5dc$vl5$3@news.datemas.de...
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>> 
>>>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%
>>>> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux
>>>> 0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>>> 
>>> 96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.
>> 
>> The rest get the maths wrong as in this case.  ;-)
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
> What's "maths"? Not to be unkind or anything, but this is the second or
> third time you've used the word like that. FYI, "math", as short for
> "mathematics", is already a plural.

Another UK v US issue. As you see it as "already" plural, we here in the 
uk, bring the plural with it. 

Here, for instance, is a web page from the BBC (the protector of the 
Engrish, innit...PMSL)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/ks2bitesize/maths/ 

Good luck on your quest.

-- 
Moog

"Some mornings it doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through 
the leather straps"
0
efcmoog1 (19)
9/23/2009 11:05:58 PM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>> slightly.
> 
> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows.


.... implying they won't be able to pay for development of new products.

Clearly they are already making less per copy: numbers of new computers 
sold have been growing more or shrinking less than Windows revenues the 
past three quarters.


> This will get us
> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
> 
> i
0
matt281 (1555)
9/23/2009 11:09:50 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:58:38 -0500, R1ck wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:53:48 +0000, Moog wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> 
>>> Market Share Percentage
>>> 
>>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%
>>> 86.37%
>>>   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux
>>>        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>> 
>> 96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.
> 
> Yes, but only 17.1% of people know this and only 33.7% believe that.

And the remaining 41.2% think that any usenet group with the word 
"advocacy" contained in it is full of fruit.

As you see, the truth will always surface.

-- 
Moog

"Some mornings it doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through 
the leather straps"
0
efcmoog1 (19)
9/23/2009 11:10:36 PM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:

<snipped>

The only thing that's going to happen if Linux ever becomes a main stay 
is that it's going to be exposed for the Swiss cheese and Flying 
Dutchman that it is in waiting, as the malware writers attack it more 
and more.
0
ISO
9/23/2009 11:11:14 PM
*Hemidactylus* wrote:

> On 09/23/2009 06:26 PM, Rotten Apple wrote:
>> "Ignoramus8004"<ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid>  wrote in message
>> news:UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper<db@cooper.net>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness
>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into,
>>>> however slightly.
>>>
>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows.
>>
>> Will curtains be included?
>>
>>> This will get us
>>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>
>> Beer is free?    When did that start?   I'm due lots of refunds!
>>
>>
> I think it was meant that you would be more free to choose amongst OS's
> in a fair and open market without problems associated with a monopoly.
> Think of going to a market to buy beer and it's all mostly one brand.
> There's another brand with higher quality that's got a small portion of
> the market but they make you buy their mugs to drink the stuff and it
> won't pour into other mugs at all. Outside along the highway there's
> people giving a decent brand of beer away that comes in many flavors but
> you have to pour the dominant brand out of a mug first before you can
> drink the free of cost stuff. OK the analogy is faltering...
> 
> You can buy Bud or Guinness or brew your own beer at home. It involves
> an investment (time and/or money) either way, but you've got the freedom
> to choose and the beer market isn't skewed in any one direction. Open
> source is like home brewing (I guess).

No offence, but you guess wrong :-)

There are two meanings of free, and in terms of software, they are perhaps
better understood as "gratis" and "libre".

"Free-as-in-beer" (gratis) is used to mean software that doesn't cost
anything.  Example - Microsoft Internet Explorer?  Download the latest and
use it - no charge.

"Free" as in speech" (libre) is quite different.
This means that (just in layman terms) you get the source code, you are free
to use the software, to distribute (copy) it to others, and to change it.

Note that most FOSS is both Gratis and Libre.

I think that the poster was referring to Microsoft cutting prices to the
effect of Gratis, but perhaps does not expect MS software ever to be Libre.

HTH

0
bbgruff (6628)
9/23/2009 11:21:46 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:02:12 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> Take a cheap Winbox, put Ubuntu on it running Apache, and you've got a
> first rate server.

Actually no.

> Can't imagine why anyone would want to run anything else.

Hardware issues.

Consumer home PC equipment is not of sufficient bandwidth, quality,
and reliability for "serious" (banking, government, etc) business use.

0
miller (482)
9/23/2009 11:25:17 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:11:14 -0400, Köhlmann is 'The Joker\", a joke.
wrote:

> The only thing that's going to happen if Linux ever becomes a main stay
> is that it's going to be exposed for the Swiss cheese and Flying
> Dutchman that it is in waiting, as the malware writers attack it more
> and more.

Use openBSD instead then.

0
miller (482)
9/23/2009 11:39:12 PM
In article <58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Ignoramus8004 <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote:

> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
> statistical inferences. 
> 
> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
> report. 
> 
> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
> 
> Market Share Percentage 
> 
> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change
> Windows        93.00%     86.37%   Down 7.5%
> Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74%  
> Linux           0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
> 
> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
> of all, by over 3x in one year. 
> 
> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
> rate should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too
> small to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
> 
> i

Linus Torvalds thinks Linux is getting too bloated, FWIW.

-- 
Jim
0
jim6807 (886)
9/23/2009 11:39:18 PM
In article <jim-532CAA.18391823092009@nntp.teranews.com>,
 Jim <jim@NOSpaMync.net> wrote:
> 
> Linus Torvalds thinks Linux is getting too bloated, FWIW.

Linus was tricked into saying that, according to boycottnovell. Intel 
used rigged benchmarks, and a Novell employee ambushed Linus, who didn't 
have a chance to go do his own benchmarks. It also has something to do 
with Microsoft infiltrating the Linux Foundation (the people who sign 
Linus' paycheck). Comedy gold.


-- 
--Tim Smith
0
reply_in_group (13194)
9/24/2009 12:03:25 AM
On 2009-09-23, Matt <matt@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote:
> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>>> slightly.
>> 
>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows.
>
>
> ... implying they won't be able to pay for development of new products.

You are "getting it".

> Clearly they are already making less per copy: numbers of new computers 
> sold have been growing more or shrinking less than Windows revenues the 
> past three quarters.

Yep, and the reason to this is that there are alternatives, of varying
degree of attractiveness (depending on the consumer).

i
0
Ignoramus8004
9/24/2009 12:25:56 AM
On 2009-09-23, Jim <jim@NOSpaMync.net> wrote:
>
> Linus Torvalds thinks Linux is getting too bloated, FWIW.
>

Would you share some particulars?

i
0
Ignoramus8004
9/24/2009 12:27:07 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:05:58 -0700, Moog wrote
(in article <h9e9kl$k07$1@news.datemas.de>):

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:56:58 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:13:32 -0700, dennis@home wrote (in article
>> <h9e6ib$hiv$1@news.datemas.de>):
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> "Moog" <efcmoog@gmail.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:h9e5dc$vl5$3@news.datemas.de...
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>>> 
>>>>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%
>>>>> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux
>>>>> 0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>>>> 
>>>> 96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.
>>> 
>>> The rest get the maths wrong as in this case.  ;-)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> What's "maths"? Not to be unkind or anything, but this is the second or
>> third time you've used the word like that. FYI, "math", as short for
>> "mathematics", is already a plural.
> 
> Another UK v US issue. As you see it as "already" plural, we here in the 
> uk, bring the plural with it. 
> 
> Here, for instance, is a web page from the BBC (the protector of the 
> Engrish, innit...PMSL)
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/ks2bitesize/maths/ 
> 
> Good luck on your quest.
> 
> 

Never heard that one before. Thanks for the clarification. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 12:32:12 AM
On 09/23/2009 06:09 PM, Van Chocstraw wrote:

> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about
> MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
> Most Linux distros have come a long way. People who try it now are less
> put off as they were in the past. There is still much to learn in Linux
> if you want to make full use of it.

I hope you haave more than a single lifetime if you want to make full 
use of Linux. The space station runs on it, the most power full 
computers for the genome, meteorology, space research, oil exploration, 
etc. run Linux.

Running Linux for chatting, exchanging email, retouching pictures, etc. 
is not more complicated than using Windows or OS X.
0
myram (10)
9/24/2009 12:39:25 AM
On 09/23/2009 05:46 PM, Ignoramus8004 wrote:

> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
> rate should be even better.

Bugs? Which bugs? Do you run alpha versions or what? I don't think that 
Linux final releases have more bugs that OS X or Windows.
0
myram (10)
9/24/2009 12:42:17 AM
On 2009-09-23, Van Chocstraw <boobooililililil@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
[deletia]
>> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
>> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
>> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
>> 
>> i
>
> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about 
> MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.

   If you can't afford $600 on a Mac then you can't afford a decent PC either.

[deletia]

-- 
     It's great to run an OS where you have to search Google          ||| 
     to find problems rather than experiencing them yourself.        / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 12:54:48 AM
On 2009-09-24, Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
>
> In article <jim-532CAA.18391823092009@nntp.teranews.com>,
>  Jim <jim@NOSpaMync.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Linus Torvalds thinks Linux is getting too bloated, FWIW.
>
> Linus was tricked into saying that, according to boycottnovell. Intel 

    No but the Lemming fear mongers will certainly spin his comments in 
ways that Linus never intended.

[deletia]

-- 
     It's great to run an OS where you have to search Google          ||| 
     to find problems rather than experiencing them yourself.        / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 12:57:55 AM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>> slightly.
> 
> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).

They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7) for 
Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with erosion 
around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I guess a lot 
depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with Vista 7.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 1:27:59 AM
Fa-groon wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote
> (in article <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
> 
>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>>> slightly.
>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
> 
> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!

I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free (like 
software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free beer).

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 1:33:02 AM
Moog wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> 
>> Market Share Percentage
>>
>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%    
>> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux   
>>        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
> 
> 96.3% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.

87.8% of my analysts say that you're wrong.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 1:34:16 AM
Van Chocstraw wrote:

> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about 
> MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
> Most Linux distros have come a long way. People who try it now are less 
> put off as they were in the past. There is still much to learn in Linux 
> if you want to make full use of it. With Windows, there is no other way 
> to use it.

Once you figure out how to reboot, reinstall and maintain your 
anti-virus and anti-malware software, Windows is a... well, it's still a 
piece of crap. But at least you can reboot, reinstall and spend lots of 
time with anti-virus and anti-malware applications. So that's something, 
anyhow.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 1:37:44 AM
JEDIDIAH wrote:

>    If you can't afford $600 on a Mac then you can't afford a decent PC either.

The computer I'm currently using cost less than $100. It's a 2.8 Ghz 
Pentium 4, with a Gig of memory. CentOS (Red Hat) 5.3 runs great on it.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 1:40:10 AM
RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09 6:27
PM:

> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness
>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however
>>> slightly.
>> 
>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
> 
> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7) for
> Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with erosion
> around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I guess a lot
> depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with Vista 7.

And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to "dupe"
people.  Your bias is showing.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 1:40:34 AM
On 09/23/2009 09:37 PM, RonB wrote:
> Van Chocstraw wrote:
>
>> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much
>> about MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
>> Most Linux distros have come a long way. People who try it now are
>> less put off as they were in the past. There is still much to learn in
>> Linux if you want to make full use of it. With Windows, there is no
>> other way to use it.
>
> Once you figure out how to reboot, reinstall and maintain your
> anti-virus and anti-malware software, Windows is a... well, it's still a
> piece of crap. But at least you can reboot, reinstall and spend lots of
> time with anti-virus and anti-malware applications. So that's something,
> anyhow.
>
Some people knit, others collect stamps, yet others like to watch the 
progress bar on their AV program as it takes 45 min to clean tracking 
cookies from their system. And the paid versions replace the anemic 
Windows firewall with their own.

Avast is like playing a video game and talks to you when updated.
0
ecphoric (303)
9/24/2009 1:42:56 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
> 
> > Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> >> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
> >>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
> >>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
> >>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
> >>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
> >> 
> >> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
> >> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
> >> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
> > 
> > They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
> > for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
> > erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
> > guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
> > Vista 7.
> 
> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to "dupe"
> people.  Your bias is showing.
> 
If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
again be bitten?

It is much the same thing.

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
Nice computers don't go down.
	Larry Niven, Steven Barnes
		"The Barsoom Project"
0
Cybe
9/24/2009 1:44:43 AM
On 2009-09-24, Myram <myram@ldkfjlsdkfjsf.com> wrote:
> On 09/23/2009 05:46 PM, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>
>> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
>> rate should be even better.
>
> Bugs? Which bugs? Do you run alpha versions or what? I don't think that 
> Linux final releases have more bugs that OS X or Windows.

They have too many bugs, as far as I am concerned. I do not run other
OSes so I cannot compare.

i
0
Ignoramus8004
9/24/2009 1:45:23 AM
On 2009-09-24, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>>> slightly.
>> 
>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>
> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7) for 
> Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with erosion 
> around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I guess a lot 
> depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with Vista 7.

It seems to be the same as Vista.

i
0
Ignoramus8004
9/24/2009 1:45:58 AM
RonB stated in post h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09 6:33
PM:

> Fa-groon wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote
>> (in article <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>> 
>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness
>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however
>>>> slightly.
>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>> 
>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
> 
> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free (like
> software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free beer).

When is Linux not free?


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 1:49:02 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote
(in article <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):

> Fa-groon wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote
>> (in article <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>> 
>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>>>> slightly.
>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>> 
>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
> 
> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free (like 
> software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free beer).
> 
> 

Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point about 
about free software. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 1:55:39 AM
K�hlmann is 'The Joker", a joke. wrote:
> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> The only thing that's going to happen if Linux ever becomes a main stay 
> is that it's going to be exposed for the Swiss cheese and Flying 
> Dutchman that it is in waiting, as the malware writers attack it more 
> and more.

But a big percentage of servers are already running Linux (and UNIX) -- 
why aren't there more malware and virus attacks on these servers?

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 2:00:08 AM
On 09/23/2009 08:54 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
> On 2009-09-23, Van Chocstraw<boobooililililil@roadrunner.com>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> [deletia]
>>> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
>>> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
>>> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
>>>
>>> i
>>
>> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about
>> MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
>
>     If you can't afford $600 on a Mac then you can't afford a decent PC either.

And if you can afford a $600 Mac, you can afford a top quality bombshell 
PC: triple core processor, 4 GB DDR3 RAM, 600 GB HD, as much RAM on the 
video card as you have on the whole Mini, you name it.

And instead of getting a phoney made in China lowest bidder mobo, you'll 
get a mobo with a name on it and all the specs.

Take a look at NewEgg's prices...
0
myram (10)
9/24/2009 2:04:59 AM
Fa-groon wrote:

> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point about 
> about free software. 

I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to 
Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly 
free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is 
specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the 
platform you need.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 2:05:30 AM
*Hemidactylus* wrote:

> Some people knit, others collect stamps, yet others like to watch the 
> progress bar on their AV program as it takes 45 min to clean tracking 
> cookies from their system. And the paid versions replace the anemic 
> Windows firewall with their own.
> 
> Avast is like playing a video game and talks to you when updated.

I never thought of that. So what you're saying is that Windows is a 
platform for anti-virus and anti-malware software. So, maybe, Windows 
users *want* malware and viruses, just so they can have the satisfaction 
of seeing their boxes cleaned up (sometimes) with their anti-malware 
software? I used to enjoy watching defrag work, so this makes sense.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 2:09:43 AM
Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
9/23/09 6:44 PM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> 
>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>> 
>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>> 
>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>> 
>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>> Vista 7.
>> 
>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to "dupe"
>> people.  Your bias is showing.
>> 
> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
> again be bitten?
> 
> It is much the same thing.

ME was bad.  XP was pretty good... by SP2 at least.  Vista started off bad
and, well, no real reason to think it ever got much better.  Maybe Win 7
will be decent. Sure... it will still have malware and the dreaded registry,
but overall might not be a bad OS.



-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 2:10:06 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:55:39 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote (in article
> <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
> 
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote (in article
>>> <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>> 
>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees
>>>>> to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut
>>>>> into, however slightly.
>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>>>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>> 
>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>> 
>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free (like
>> software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free beer).
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point
> about about free software.

What quality is CUPS?
What quality is Darwin?
What quality is Streaming Server?
What quality is efax?
What quality ... well, you should get the point.


-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 2:10:55 AM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> On 2009-09-24, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>>>> slightly.
>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7) for 
>> Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with erosion 
>> around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I guess a lot 
>> depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with Vista 7.
> 
> It seems to be the same as Vista.

That's what it looks like to me -- but the elderly lady who's Vista 
computer went KSOD said she would rather stick with Vista (I had offered 
to install XP) "because Windows 7 was coming out soon." Again, Microsoft 
is like the barber who also sells hats... "Yeah, that's a terrible 
haircut, want to buy a hat?" "Yeah, Vista sucks really bad, but if you 
stick with it long enough you *can* buy Windows 7!"

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 2:14:37 AM
Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
9/23/09 6:44 PM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> 
>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>> 
>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>> 
>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>> 
>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>> Vista 7.
>> 
>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to "dupe"
>> people.  Your bias is showing.
>> 
> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
> again be bitten?
> 
> It is much the same thing.
> 
> Cybe R. Wizard

And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 2:22:58 AM
On 09/23/2009 10:09 PM, RonB wrote:
> *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>
>> Some people knit, others collect stamps, yet others like to watch the
>> progress bar on their AV program as it takes 45 min to clean tracking
>> cookies from their system. And the paid versions replace the anemic
>> Windows firewall with their own.
>>
>> Avast is like playing a video game and talks to you when updated.
>
> I never thought of that. So what you're saying is that Windows is a
> platform for anti-virus and anti-malware software. So, maybe, Windows
> users *want* malware and viruses, just so they can have the satisfaction
> of seeing their boxes cleaned up (sometimes) with their anti-malware
> software? I used to enjoy watching defrag work, so this makes sense.
>
Oh yeah defrag is fun too. Why the hell can't I defrag Linux! I feel 
cheated. And the biggest issue I have with Vista is that I have not yet 
figured out how to get that nice full-color spectral display showing the 
before and after states for defrag like in XP. Vista defrag is boring 
and takes a REALLY long time with very little for eye candy. Bring a 
book or two. XP's defrag is hypnotic like a laser light show at a rave. 
Break out the glow sticks and clove cigs and trance out to Mix Master DJ 
Billy Gates on the wheel of steel.

And Linux cheats us out of that nice BSoD display. I miss that. Dammit 
I'm switching back. Linux is cheating me out of so much fun (AV scans, 
defrags, BSoD's). Good thing I'm not paying for it or I'd really get upset.
0
ecphoric (303)
9/24/2009 2:27:41 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
>>> 6:27 PM:
>>> 
>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits
>>>>>> my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get
>>>>> us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>> 
>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with Vista
>>>> 7.
>>> 
>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to "dupe"
>>> people.  Your bias is showing.
>>> 
>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
>> again be bitten?
>> 
>> It is much the same thing.
>> 
>> Cybe R. Wizard
> 
> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.

Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 2:33:52 AM
Rick stated in post QbOdnUeN7P4NRyfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/23/09 7:33 PM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
>> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
>>>> 6:27 PM:
>>>> 
>>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits
>>>>>>> my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get
>>>>>> us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>> 
>>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with Vista
>>>>> 7.
>>>> 
>>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to "dupe"
>>>> people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>> 
>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
>>> again be bitten?
>>> 
>>> It is much the same thing.
>>> 
>>> Cybe R. Wizard
>> 
>> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.
> 
> Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?

Why reach back into the desktop Linux "pit"?  Sure, it has gotten better -
much better - but it is still a mishmash of inconsistent and poorly followed
UI standards and it still is not well supported by Adobe or Apple or MS or
other major software developers.  Do you expect users to keep testing it
year after year hoping it gets better?  I hope they do... and I hope (and
believe) Linux will get better.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 2:55:03 AM
RonB stated in post h9ekda$4g1$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09 7:09
PM:

> *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> 
>> Some people knit, others collect stamps, yet others like to watch the
>> progress bar on their AV program as it takes 45 min to clean tracking
>> cookies from their system. And the paid versions replace the anemic
>> Windows firewall with their own.
>> 
>> Avast is like playing a video game and talks to you when updated.
> 
> I never thought of that. So what you're saying is that Windows is a
> platform for anti-virus and anti-malware software. So, maybe, Windows
> users *want* malware and viruses, just so they can have the satisfaction
> of seeing their boxes cleaned up (sometimes) with their anti-malware
> software? I used to enjoy watching defrag work, so this makes sense.

It would make sense to you.  I guess.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 3:08:24 AM
RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09 7:05
PM:

> Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point about
>> about free software.
> 
> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is
> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
> platform you need.

Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there is no
killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop Linux that is
not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all sorts of niche
software... OS X has the graphic and video industry and is tops for ease of
use... but what claim can desktop Linux make - *any* distro?


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 3:10:11 AM
On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote
> (in article <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote
>>> (in article <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>> 
>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>>>>> slightly.
>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>>>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>> 
>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>> 
>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free (like 
>> software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free beer).
>> 
>> 
>
> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point about 
> about free software. 

      You don't even want to go there...

      Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.

-- 
"Microsoft looks at new ideas, they don't evaluate whether 
the idea will move the industry forward, they ask,                    |||
'how will it help us sell more copies of Windows?'"                  / | \

                         -- Bill Gates
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 3:11:51 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:55:03 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Rick stated in post QbOdnUeN7P4NRyfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
> 9/23/09 7:33 PM:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
>>> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>>>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>>>>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>>>>> Vista 7.
>>>>> 
>>>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to
>>>>> "dupe" people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>>> 
>>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>>>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
>>>> again be bitten?
>>>> 
>>>> It is much the same thing.
>>>> 
>>>> Cybe R. Wizard
>>> 
>>> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.
>> 
>> Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?
> 
> Why reach back into the desktop Linux "pit"? 

It is not a pit. If you think of it as a viper pit, why do you still use 
it?

> Sure, it has gotten better
> - much better - but it is still a mishmash of inconsistent and poorly
> followed UI standards

Not really. Maybe one day you will understand that people like to be able 
to choose from KDE, Gnome, XFCE, and other environments.

Maybe one day you will understand that KDE apps run in a KDE environment 
are, for the most part, consistent, and that Gnome/gtk apps run in a 
Gnome environment are, for the most part consistent, and that the ability 
to run an app that is written for one environment in another is a benefit.

And maybe one day you will understand that not all developers adhere to 
published UI guidelines.

Maybe, but I doubt it.


> and it still is not well supported by Adobe or
> Apple or MS or other major software developers. 

So what? There is much more software support for the Windows platform 
than there is for the Mac platform.

> Do you expect users to
> keep testing it year after year hoping it gets better? 

I expect that most of the users do what I do... use it to work and play.

> I hope they
> do... and I hope (and believe) Linux will get better.

Of course Linux systems will get better. Do you not hope Macs get better? 
Do you not hope Windows will get better?

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 3:12:43 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:10:11 -0700, Snit wrote:

> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
> 7:05 PM:
> 
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>> point about about free software.
>> 
>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there
>> is specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
>> platform you need.
> 
> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there is
> no killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop Linux
> that is not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all sorts of
> niche software... OS X has the graphic and video industry and is tops
> for ease of use... but what claim can desktop Linux make - *any* distro?

One "killer app" for FOSS systems is ... FOSS... the fact that it is 
FOSS. No license worries. The ability for people/companies/whomever to 
freely customize the software if they want or need to.

FOSS running under a FOSS operating system... killer app. And yes, many 
people use it for that very reason.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 3:19:12 AM
On 2009-09-24, Myram <myram@ldkfjlsdkfjsf.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 09/23/2009 08:54 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>> On 2009-09-23, Van Chocstraw<boobooililililil@roadrunner.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>> [deletia]
>>>> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
>>>> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
>>>> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
>>>>
>>>> i
>>>
>>> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about
>>> MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
>>
>>     If you can't afford $600 on a Mac then you can't afford a decent PC either.
>
> And if you can afford a $600 Mac, you can afford a top quality bombshell 
> PC: triple core processor, 4 GB DDR3 RAM, 600 GB HD, as much RAM on the 

    Triple core? Isn't that like a Quad Core that wasn't good enough to cut
the mustard? Why triffle with a manufacturing reject? If you are going to
play the specs game, at least bother to do so with a faster dual core. At
least that will have the advantage of doing better in highly serial sorts
of operations.

    Although it probably won't mean much to the bargain shopper anyways.

    That's rather the point. There's an effective price floor on systems
(especially at retail where most people actually shop) and hardware in
general is overkill for most people.

> video card as you have on the whole Mini, you name it.
>
> And instead of getting a phoney made in China lowest bidder mobo, you'll 
> get a mobo with a name on it and all the specs.
>
> Take a look at NewEgg's prices...

    I see a lot of brands I've never heard of before and a lot of boxes
that still use shared memory for the video chipset.


-- 
"Microsoft looks at new ideas, they don't evaluate whether 
the idea will move the industry forward, they ask,                    |||
'how will it help us sell more copies of Windows?'"                  / | \

                         -- Bill Gates
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 3:22:55 AM
On 09/23/2009 11:10 PM, Snit wrote:
> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09 7:05
> PM:
>
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>
>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point about
>>> about free software.
>>
>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is
>> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
>> platform you need.
>
> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there is no
> killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop Linux that is
> not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all sorts of niche
> software... OS X has the graphic and video industry and is tops for ease of
> use... but what claim can desktop Linux make - *any* distro?
>
>
Linux has the killer anti-virus app...nothing! Think about it while 
you're scanning for malware next time in Windoze. Linux with nothing is 
better than Windows with paid AV software.

Though a pain in the butt, Linux can be upgraded every six months with a 
fresh install for free, which means newer better stuff without forking 
over cash. Microsoft charges to go from 98 to NT or ME to XP to Vista to 
7. Sure you get patches and service packs for free, but IMO the 6 mo or 
longer term Ubuntu LTS fresh install is the way to go for a clean slate 
every time. Or you can upgrade along the way *for free*.

It's Microsoft's position as a huge corporation with lots of market 
power that makes codecs a non-issue for Microsoft users or I'd compare 
media platforms. That's a stacked deck. You can play DVD's out of the 
box with Windows. I wonder why.

And to a certain extent I see Apple as *more* proprietary than MS. At 
least MS doesn't care if you load a paid copy of Windows into an Apple 
platform. Try going the other way. I could virtualize Windows in Linux 
or vice versa. Try virtualizing Mac O$$$ in Linux or Windows without 
breaking a few rules. Or load it on a wiped hard drive that used to hold 
Windows or Linux.
0
ecphoric (303)
9/24/2009 3:43:30 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:05:30 -0700, RonB wrote
(in article <h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org>):

> Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point 
>> about 
>> about free software. 
> 
> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to 
> Windows -- 


Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system falls 
down is when it comes to the software titles available for Windows. Every 
"shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the pants off of any open 
source "alternative". Now while many of these might be OK for home use, most 
of them require far more work than their shrink'd counterparts and are far 
behind the commercial stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this 
doesn't bother you, go for it. 

>  and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly 
> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is 
> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the 
> platform you need.

Yes. 

I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open 
sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to 
an iPod on a Linux box?


0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 3:46:05 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:


> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open 
> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to 
> an iPod on a Linux box?

They have several applications but none of them are as good as
iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.

Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
They prefer other brands of music players in general.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 3:54:16 AM
In article <0001HW.C6E0398D0026C6E0F01846D8@news.giganews.com>, fa-groon wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:05:30 -0700, RonB wrote
>(in article <h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org>):
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point 
>>> about 
>>> about free software. 
>> 
>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to 
>> Windows -- 

>Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system falls 
>down is when it comes to the software titles available for Windows. Every 
>"shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the pants off of any open 
>source "alternative". Now while many of these might be OK for home use, most 
>of them require far more work than their shrink'd counterparts and are far 
>behind the commercial stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this 
>doesn't bother you, go for it. 
>
>>  and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly 
>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is 
>> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the 
>> platform you need.
>
>Yes. 
>
>I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open 
>sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to 
>an iPod on a Linux box?

I've never had a problem ripping music (there are at least 3 well 
known choices of app for this in kde alone IIRC  :) ). I don't own (or want) 
an ipod, so have no opinion on how easy/hard that is ... but IME, most 
hardware is transparent in linux. Plug it in and it works. No silly s/w 
needed. :)



0
9/24/2009 4:06:44 AM
In article <z6idnWqfKKdGISfXnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Ignoramus8004 <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote:

> On 2009-09-23, Jim <jim@NOSpaMync.net> wrote:
> >
> > Linus Torvalds thinks Linux is getting too bloated, FWIW.
> >
> 
> Would you share some particulars?
> 
> i

You should learn to Google, or Bing.


http://www.crn.com/software/220100662;jsessionid=R3MQN5EPHMASDQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN

-- 
Jim
0
jim6807 (886)
9/24/2009 4:17:11 AM
On 09/23/2009 11:54 PM, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>
>
>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open
>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to
>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>
> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>
> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
 >
Has Apple *as a corporation* released iTunes or Safari for Linux? How 
can Linuxheads synch iPods if Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about them, 
but kisses Microsoft's a$$?

I can get Google Chrome for Linux (though still not polished). I can get 
Opera for Linux. I can get Firefox for Linux. Piece of cake.

Why does Apple release iTunes and Safari for the use of Windows users, 
but not Linux users? Or has this changed since the last time I checked.

http://www.apple.com/safari/

For Mac + PC

http://www.apple.com/downloads/

Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load Mac 
OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because Microsoft 
might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC dorkfest commercials 
in a new light.
0
ecphoric (303)
9/24/2009 4:18:16 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:18:16 -0400, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

> On 09/23/2009 11:54 PM, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open
>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to
>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>
>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>
>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>  >
> Has Apple *as a corporation* released iTunes or Safari for Linux? How 
> can Linuxheads synch iPods if Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about them, 
> but kisses Microsoft's a$$?

Duhhh......
Google is your friend :)

 
> I can get Google Chrome for Linux (though still not polished). I can get 
> Opera for Linux. I can get Firefox for Linux. Piece of cake.

Who cares?
I can get them for Windows as well.

Your point?
 
> Why does Apple release iTunes and Safari for the use of Windows users, 
> but not Linux users? Or has this changed since the last time I checked.

Because the user base isn't big enough to make it worth their
time.

 
> http://www.apple.com/safari/
> 
> For Mac + PC
> 
> http://www.apple.com/downloads/
> 
> Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load Mac 
> OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because Microsoft 
> might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC dorkfest commercials 
> in a new light.

People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
applications, poor hardware support and in general an
applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.

The exceptions, for the most, like gimp and open office amongst
others, (IOW the good ones) are also available for Windows.

Few use them though because better alternatives exist.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 4:25:12 AM
*Hemidactylus* wrote:

> Oh yeah defrag is fun too. Why the hell can't I defrag Linux! I feel 
> cheated. And the biggest issue I have with Vista is that I have not yet 
> figured out how to get that nice full-color spectral display showing the 
> before and after states for defrag like in XP. Vista defrag is boring 
> and takes a REALLY long time with very little for eye candy. Bring a 
> book or two. XP's defrag is hypnotic like a laser light show at a rave. 
> Break out the glow sticks and clove cigs and trance out to Mix Master DJ 
> Billy Gates on the wheel of steel.
> 
> And Linux cheats us out of that nice BSoD display. I miss that. Dammit 
> I'm switching back. Linux is cheating me out of so much fun (AV scans, 
> defrags, BSoD's). Good thing I'm not paying for it or I'd really get upset.

Don't forget the ever-popular KSOD in Vista. Linux doesn't have that 
sense of adventure -- that great leap into the unknown. That universal 
*shrug* when you ask tech support how to fix the Black Screen of Death. 
Dell's official position -- reinstall Vista. Microsoft's official 
position -- reinstall Vista. What causes it? Uh...

Linux just isn't fun anymore.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 4:51:00 AM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>
>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness
>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into,
>> however slightly.
>
> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows.

"if they manage"?  Is free Linux crapware going to topple them?  Puhleeeeze.

And you do know it's Windows and Office that subsidizes many other MS 
products - not the other way around.

Such ignorance... living down to your namesake I see.



> This will get us closer to the world where
> software is free (as in beer).

Dream on.  None of these fantasies will ever happen.  Linux/OSS isn't good 
enough to displace Windows/commercial code.

They've been building that OpenOffice slop for a decade, and it's still a 
piss-poor solution compared to MS Office.



0
nospam11 (18349)
9/24/2009 4:56:23 AM
Fa-groon wrote:

> Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system falls 
> down is when it comes to the software titles available for Windows. Every 
> "shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the pants off of any open 
> source "alternative". Now while many of these might be OK for home use, most 
> of them require far more work than their shrink'd counterparts and are far 
> behind the commercial stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this 
> doesn't bother you, go for it. 

I'll tell my ex-boss that he needs to uninstall Open Office on his 
Windows work machines -- because, even though we successfully used it to 
replace Microsoft Office, I've now been told on a newsgroup that it 
won't work for work. So what other shrink wrapped product were you 
talking about, specifically?

> Yes. 
> 
> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open 
> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to 
> an iPod on a Linux box?

I don't own an iPod, but ripping music can be done with several Linux 
applications. The one I have on my CentOS computer is Sound Juicer -- it 
was installed by default. When I want to move ripped songs to my Palm 
Centro, I just copy them to the Centro's Micro SD card. (Non problem 
solved.)

For those who *do* own iPODs, there is Linux software that allows them 
to sync directly to their computer.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 5:00:31 AM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> On 2009-09-23, Matt <matt@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>>>> slightly.
>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows.
>>
>> ... implying they won't be able to pay for development of new products.
> 
> You are "getting it".


No, you are.  :-)


>> Clearly they are already making less per copy: numbers of new computers 
>> sold have been growing more or shrinking less than Windows revenues the 
>> past three quarters.
> 
> Yep, and the reason to this is that there are alternatives, of varying
> degree of attractiveness (depending on the consumer).
> 
> i
0
matt281 (1555)
9/24/2009 5:01:34 AM
*Hemidactylus* wrote:

> It's Microsoft's position as a huge corporation with lots of market 
> power that makes codecs a non-issue for Microsoft users or I'd compare 
> media platforms. That's a stacked deck. You can play DVD's out of the 
> box with Windows. I wonder why.

I don't know about Vista, but Windows XP doesn't have the codecs "out of 
box" necessary for playing DVDs.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 5:02:57 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:00:31 -0500, RonB wrote:


> For those who *do* own iPODs, there is Linux software that allows them 
> to sync directly to their computer.

It's terrible compared to the Windows and Mac offerings.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 5:05:32 AM
RonB wrote:
> *Hemidactylus* wrote:

>> And Linux cheats us out of that nice BSoD display. I miss that.
>> Dammit I'm switching back. Linux is cheating me out of so much fun (AV
>> scans, defrags, BSoD's). Good thing I'm not paying for it or I'd
>> really get upset.
>
> Don't forget the ever-popular KSOD in Vista. Linux doesn't have that
> sense of adventure -- that great leap into the unknown. That universal
> *shrug* when you ask tech support how to fix the Black Screen of
> Death. Dell's official position -- reinstall Vista. Microsoft's
> official position -- reinstall Vista. What causes it? Uh...
>
> Linux just isn't fun anymore.


Not after you've used a nice system like Vista or Win7, and some great 
commercial apps and games.  After that, using Linux is like stepping back 10 
years.

Also:

Results 1 - 10 of about 643,000 for Linux kernel panic
Results 1 - 10 of about 25,400 for Vista KSOD
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,410,000 for Vista BSOD

Yet Vista has approx 20x as many users as Linux.  So anecdotally, Linux 
kernel panics at a rate nearly 10x higher than Vista.

Sounds about right if you look at the enormous number of shitware bugs 
reported in Ubuntu launchpad, and on the other Linux crapware forums.



0
nospam11 (18349)
9/24/2009 5:06:57 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:02:57 -0500, RonB wrote:

> *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> 
>> It's Microsoft's position as a huge corporation with lots of market 
>> power that makes codecs a non-issue for Microsoft users or I'd compare 
>> media platforms. That's a stacked deck. You can play DVD's out of the 
>> box with Windows. I wonder why.
> 
> I don't know about Vista, but Windows XP doesn't have the codecs "out of 
> box" necessary for playing DVDs.

They are in the DVD player/recorder box, and unlike the Linux
solution are completely legal in all parts of the world.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 5:07:04 AM
*Hemidactylus* stated in post D6OdnQnmmJZ9dyfXnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@giganews.com
on 9/23/09 8:43 PM:

> On 09/23/2009 11:10 PM, Snit wrote:
>> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09 7:05
>> PM:
>> 
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point
>>>> about
>>>> about free software.
>>> 
>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is
>>> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
>>> platform you need.
>> 
>> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there is no
>> killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop Linux that is
>> not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all sorts of niche
>> software... OS X has the graphic and video industry and is tops for ease of
>> use... but what claim can desktop Linux make - *any* distro?
>> 
>> 
> Linux has the killer anti-virus app...nothing! Think about it while
> you're scanning for malware next time in Windoze. Linux with nothing is
> better than Windows with paid AV software.

Oh, no doubt that OS X and Linux have a huge advantage in this area over
Windows.  And, yes, that will pull some people in - but most people want to
see something added... not just a benefit of that nature.  Does not mean it
is not a real and important benefit.

> Though a pain in the butt, Linux can be upgraded every six months with a
> fresh install for free, which means newer better stuff without forking
> over cash. Microsoft charges to go from 98 to NT or ME to XP to Vista to
> 7. Sure you get patches and service packs for free, but IMO the 6 mo or
> longer term Ubuntu LTS fresh install is the way to go for a clean slate
> every time. Or you can upgrade along the way *for free*.

No doubt the price of, say, Ubuntu is a benefit... but that is not a direct
feature of Ubuntu.  But, sure, price will pull some people in.

> It's Microsoft's position as a huge corporation with lots of market
> power that makes codecs a non-issue for Microsoft users or I'd compare
> media platforms. That's a stacked deck. You can play DVD's out of the
> box with Windows. I wonder why.

The reason why does not really matter to the consumer.

> And to a certain extent I see Apple as *more* proprietary than MS. At
> least MS doesn't care if you load a paid copy of Windows into an Apple
> platform. Try going the other way. I could virtualize Windows in Linux
> or vice versa. Try virtualizing Mac O$$$ in Linux or Windows without
> breaking a few rules. Or load it on a wiped hard drive that used to hold
> Windows or Linux.

Sure: one of the benefits of a Mac is that it is a "whole widget"
solution... but that also comes with down sides.

-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 5:07:22 AM
Rick stated in post QbOdnUaN7P42fifXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/23/09 8:12 PM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:55:03 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> Rick stated in post QbOdnUeN7P4NRyfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
>> 9/23/09 7:33 PM:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
>>>> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>>>>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>>>>>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>>>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>>>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>>>>>> Vista 7.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to
>>>>>> "dupe" people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>>>>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
>>>>> again be bitten?
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is much the same thing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard
>>>> 
>>>> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.
>>> 
>>> Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?
>> 
>> Why reach back into the desktop Linux "pit"?
> 
> It is not a pit. If you think of it as a viper pit, why do you still use
> it?

I use it and Windows.  I was merely pushing your "analogy" back at you.

You did not react well.  No surprise.  :)

>> Sure, it has gotten better - much better - but it is still a mishmash of
>> inconsistent and poorly followed UI standards
> 
> Not really. 

Yes, really.  As I have shown.  But, as you prove below, you have no idea
what I am talking about.  You just spew concepts that are not relevant as
you make absurd accusations.

I do wish you could show some level of understanding... but I accept you
cannot.

> Maybe one day you will understand that people like to be able
> to choose from KDE, Gnome, XFCE, and other environments.
> 
> Maybe one day you will understand that KDE apps run in a KDE environment
> are, for the most part, consistent, and that Gnome/gtk apps run in a
> Gnome environment are, for the most part consistent, and that the ability
> to run an app that is written for one environment in another is a benefit.
> 
> And maybe one day you will understand that not all developers adhere to
> published UI guidelines.
> 
> Maybe, but I doubt it.
> 
> 
>> and it still is not well supported by Adobe or
>> Apple or MS or other major software developers.
> 
> So what? There is much more software support for the Windows platform
> than there is for the Mac platform.

Yes, there is.  And that is a benefit of Windows.

>> Do you expect users to
>> keep testing it year after year hoping it gets better?
> 
> I expect that most of the users do what I do... use it to work and play.

Then you expectations are wrong.  No surprise there!

>> I hope they
>> do... and I hope (and believe) Linux will get better.
> 
> Of course Linux systems will get better. Do you not hope Macs get better?
> Do you not hope Windows will get better?

Of course I do.  Unlike you, though, I do not deny the problems any of the
OSs currently have.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 5:11:16 AM
Rick stated in post QbOdnUGN7P6teCfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/23/09 8:19 PM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:10:11 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
>> 7:05 PM:
>> 
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>>> point about about free software.
>>> 
>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there
>>> is specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
>>> platform you need.
>> 
>> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there is
>> no killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop Linux
>> that is not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all sorts of
>> niche software... OS X has the graphic and video industry and is tops
>> for ease of use... but what claim can desktop Linux make - *any* distro?
> 
> One "killer app" for FOSS systems is ... FOSS... the fact that it is
> FOSS. No license worries. The ability for people/companies/whomever to
> freely customize the software if they want or need to.
> 
> FOSS running under a FOSS operating system... killer app. And yes, many
> people use it for that very reason.

FOSS is not an application.  Nice try though.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 5:11:39 AM
Bruce Sinclair wrote:

> I've never had a problem ripping music (there are at least 3 well 
> known choices of app for this in kde alone IIRC  :) ). I don't own (or want) 
> an ipod, so have no opinion on how easy/hard that is ... but IME, most 
> hardware is transparent in linux. Plug it in and it works. No silly s/w 
> needed. :)

Apple goes through a lot of trouble to try to make sure their hardware 
doesn't work with anyone else's software (and vice versa). I find their 
juvenile attempts to keep iTunes from syncing with the Palm Pre amusing.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 5:12:44 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:06:44 GMT, Bruce Sinclair wrote:

> In article <0001HW.C6E0398D0026C6E0F01846D8@news.giganews.com>, fa-groon wrote:
>>On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:05:30 -0700, RonB wrote
>>(in article <h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point 
>>>> about 
>>>> about free software. 
>>> 
>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to 
>>> Windows -- 
> 
>>Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system falls 
>>down is when it comes to the software titles available for Windows. Every 
>>"shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the pants off of any open 
>>source "alternative". Now while many of these might be OK for home use, most 
>>of them require far more work than their shrink'd counterparts and are far 
>>behind the commercial stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this 
>>doesn't bother you, go for it. 
>>
>>>  and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly 
>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is 
>>> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the 
>>> platform you need.
>>
>>Yes. 
>>
>>I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open 
>>sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to 
>>an iPod on a Linux box?
> 
> I've never had a problem ripping music (there are at least 3 well 
> known choices of app for this in kde alone IIRC  :) ). I don't own (or want) 
> an ipod, so have no opinion on how easy/hard that is ... but IME, most 
> hardware is transparent in linux. Plug it in and it works. No silly s/w 
> needed. :)

Ripping music is trivial.
Getting an iPod to FULLY FUNCTION, including playlists, is not.

http://www.gtkpod.org/README

iPod, iTunes, Mac, Macintosh, iBook are trademarks of Apple
Computer,
Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.



Donations are welcome: please go to
https://sourceforge.net/project/project_donations.php?group_id=67873
for details.


*----------------------------------*
|                                  |
|            Contents              |
|                                  |
*----------------------------------*


  - Using gtkpod
  - Features
     - Tracks
     - Filter Tabs
     - Playlists
     - Drag and Drop
     - Duplicate Detection
     - Preferences File
     - Startup and Shutdown scripts
     - Extended Information File
     - Refresh (Update) Track Info From File
     - Synchronize Directories
     - Volume Normalization
     - Podcasts
     - Offline Mode
     - Export of Tracks (Copy from iPod)
     - Encoding of ID3 tags (charsets)
     - Extracting tag information from the filename
     - Checking iPod's files
     - Restoring your iPod after file system error
     - Playcounts & Rating
     - About filenames
  - Icons for window managers
  - Connecting iPod to a Linux box:
  - Sick of loading the sbp2 modules by hand? (an example of how
to
    use startup/shutdown scripts)

*----------------------------------*
|                                  |
|          Using gtkpod            |
|                                  |
*----------------------------------*


Follow steps 1-7 in the "Connecting your iPod to a Linux box"
(basically you need to get the iPod partition mounted to
/mnt/ipod)


1) The faint-of-heart make a backup of their iTunesDB:

cp /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB
/mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB.bak

2) Start gtkpod

3) Use "Import" to import the contents of your old iTunesDB.

4) Use "Add Files", "Add Directories" or DND to add files or
   directories.

5) Use "Sync" to write the added files to the iPod and create a
new
   iTunesDB.

6) Quit the program.

and continue with step 8-11 of the "Connecting your iPod to a
Linux
box" section (basically describing how to unmount and disconnect
your
iPod).


*----------------------------------*
|                                  |
|            Features              |
|                                  |
*----------------------------------*

Tracks
-----

- You can add individual tracks, entire directories recursively,
or
  existing playlists using "Add Files". A file selection
dialogue will
  appear. By default existing tracks (same full filename) will
be skipped.
- You can add directories recursively using "Add Dirs". A
directory
  selection dialogue will appear.
- You can add existing playlists using "Add Playlists"
- You can delete tracks by marking them and pressing the
"Ctrl-d" . If
  you delete tracks from the master playlist (the topmost
playlist,
  called "gtkpod" by default).  You can also delete tracks by
selecting them,
  and using "Delete Track" in the Edit menu or from the context
menu.
- You can update ID3 tags of selected tracks in gtkpod from the
mp3
  file by pressing "Ctrl-u" or choose "Update track info from
file" in
  the Edit menu or from the context menu.
- You can rename ID3 tags by editing the fields in gtkpod. You
can
  change an entire group of ID3 tags by editing an entry in the
sort
  tab (or mark several tracks and edit the first).
- Cou can specify which tags to display in the preferences
window
- Cou can specify (in the prefs window) if the ID3 tags of the
  corresponding mp3 file(s) should also be updated


Filter Tabs
-----------

- The two notebooks above the track display are called "Filter
Tabs"
- They allow you to filter which tracks to display
- If you edit an entry in the filter tab, the corresponding
entry in all
  associated tracks will be updated as well. When writing the
tags to
  disk as well, updating of a large number of tracks may take a
while


Playlists
---------

- You can create playlists with "New Playlist" or pressing
"Ctrl-n" in
  the playlist listview.
- You can also create playlists by adding an existing playlist
file
  with "Add file" or "Add playlist".
- You can add tracks to playlists by marking the tracks you want
to add,
  and then dragging them onto the playlist.
- You can rename playlists.
- You can delete playlists by selecting the desired playlist and
pressing
  "Ctrl-D", or by selecting "Delete Playlist" from the Edit
menu.


Drag and Drop
-------------

Drag and Drop can be used in several ways:

1) gtkpod internal

- Playlists, entries of a filter tab, and tracks can be dragged.

- A drop _onto_ an existing playlist will add the tracks to that
  playlist

- A drop _between_ two existing playlists or behind the last
playlist
  will create a new playlist to which the tracks are added.

- The default action for the drop is either move or copy as
appears
  appropriate (e.g. playlists are moved within a database
('local' or
  'iPod/Shuffle'), but copied when dragged across different
  databases).  The applicable action is displayed within the
drag
  icon and can be changed by pressing the control key during the
drop. 

2) between external file browser and gtkpod

- Tracks, directories or playlist files can be dropped onto the
  playlist view or track view. Drops between two existing
playlists
  create a new playlist.


Preferences File
----------------

On startup gtkpod will read the preferences from ~/.gtkpod/prefs
(or
/etc/gtkpod/prefs if the former doesn't exist).


Startup and Shutdown Scripts
----------------------------

After reading the preferences file gtkpod will try to execute
~/.gtkpod/gtkpod.in (or /etc/gtkpod/gtkpod.in if the former
doesn't
exist) during startup. This is done before attempting to mount
the
iPod directory (optional) or read the iTunesDB (optional)).

When leaving the program, gtkpod can unmount the iPod for you
(option). In this case, gtkpod will also try to send an "eject"
command to the iPod. For this to work, however, you need write
access
to the device file (e.g. /dev/sda2). After this the following
scripts
will be executed: ~/.gtkpod/gtkpod.out (or
/etc/gtkpod/gtkpod.out if
the former doesn't exist).

Please see the section "Sick of loading the sbp2 modules by
hand?" for
an example of how to use this functionality.


Duplicate Detection
-------------------

You can instruct gtkpod (in the prefs window) to use
file-size-dependent MD5 checksums to prevent the same file from
being copied to your iPod twice.

If a duplicate is detected, gtkpod will print out the the
filenames
of the duplicate files. If the filename of the already existing
file
is not available (it is not stored in the iTunes database, see
"Extended Information File" below), other available information
of
the track is printed.


Extended Information File
-------------------------

Some (I believe) essential information is not stored in Apple's
iTunes
database. You can therefore instruct gtkpod to write an
additional
file (iTunesDB.ext) with extended information. For each track it
stores

  - MD5 hash
  - filename in the locale's encoding
  - filename in UTF8 encoding
  - hostname where the file was added (not used for anything
yet)

Since the extended information file is only valid with the
corresponding standard iTunes database, a checksum of the iTunes
database is also stored in the extended information file.

Using an extended information file will considerably speed up
the
import of an existing iTunes database when using duplicate
detection,
since the MD5 checksums do not have to be re-calculated.

Using an extended information file will also allow modification
of ID3
tags in the track files after the initial import, because the
full
filenames are still available.

The extended information file is also used for the "Offline
Mode"
described below.


Refresh (Update) Track Info From File
------------------------------------

If you have changed the ID3 tags of your original file, you can
update
the ID3 tags stored in gtkpod without removing and re-adding the
track. Simply select the track to be updated and press "Ctrl-u"
or
choose "Update Track Info From File" from the Edit menu. Since
gtkpod
needs to know the filename of the track, the "Extended
Information
File" (see above) is needed.

"Update" will also re-read the replay-gain tags from disk, if
available, and set the soundcheck field. If no replay-gain tag
is
available, the soundcheck field will be erased.

You can also select entries in the filter tab or entire
playlists for
refresh.


Synchronize Directories
-----------------------

If you have added files to directories or changed files in
directories
you have previously added tracks from, you can use the
"Synchronize
Dirs" utility to update your iTunesDB.

"Synchronize Dirs" will use the selected tracks to make a list
of
directories to update, so you should activate the "Write
Extended
Information" option in the export section of the preferences
dialogue.

It will then add all non-existing tracks in those directories
and
update (see "Refresh") all existing tracks. The tracks are also
added to
the currently selected playlist, if they aren't already a
member.

Tracks that have been removed from the directory will only be
removed
from the iTunesDB if this option is checked in the option
dialogue.

For best results you should also activate duplicate detection.
This
avoids unnecessary copying of unchanged tracks.


Volume Normalization
--------------------

There are two fields in the iTunesDB that allow to adjust the
volume
of an individual track: the volume field (a signed integer) and
the
soundcheck field (in dB). The volume is always active, whereas
the
soundcheck field is only active when you select 'soundcheck' on
the
iPod. Further, the soundcheck field only affects the earphone
output
but not the line output of the iPod.

gtkpod will set the soundcheck according to the replay-gain tag
set in
your mp3 file. Newer versions of 'lame' automatically include
the
replay-gain tag when encoding. In that case the soundcheck field
will
be filled in when you first import a track.

If no replay-gain tag is set, you can use the function
'Normalize
Volume' to call mp3gain (mp3gain.sourceforge.net) to calculate
the
gain and write a replay-gain tag. Since this procedure is very
time
consuming, it is not done automatically during import. You need
to
install mp3gain in the default path or set the full path in the
'Tools' section of the preferences dialog. If the iPod is
connected,
the tag is written to the file stored on the iPod. If the iPod
is not
connected (i.e. in 'offline mode') the original file on the PC
is used
if the filename is available (requires the extended information
file
iTunesDB.ext).

At this time "album gain" functionality is not supported. "Album
gain"
means that the volume of all tracks of one album is adjusted by
the
same gain, such that the relative volume level remains the same.
It is
planned to realize this in on of the next versions.

Also, please be aware that tracks are not normalized on a 'per
playlist' fashion. If a track is normalized, it's normalized in
all
playlists it is a member of.

Once the replay-gain tag has been read, it is stored in the
extended
information file 'iTunesDB.ext'. When you call 'Normalize
volume'
again, the stored value will be used to re-populate the
soundcheck
field. Use 'Update Track' to re-read the tag from the file.


Podcasts
--------

You have to download podcasts using a third party tool like
bashpooder
(http://linc.homeunix.org:8080/scripts/bashpodder/) or gpodder
(http://perli.net/projekte/gpodder/)

Podcasts should be added directly into the 'Podcasts' playlist
of the
iPod repository, for example by selecting the Podcasts playlist
before
manually adding files/directories. Podcasts will then appear
only in
the Podcasts section on the iPod.

If you add podcasts to the main playlist 'gtkpod/iPod' or any
other
iPod playlist first and then drag them over to the Podcasts
playlist,
the podcasts will appear in the Podcasts section on the iPod, as
well
as in the normal music section.

The podcast 'repository' is a local repository (like 'Local')
where
you can keep all local podcasts. No mechanism exists to
automatically
synchronize the iPod repository with the Podcast repository at
this
time. You have to drag the podcasts over manually.


Offline Mode
------------

It is possible to modify your iTunesDB "offline", i.e. without
your
iPod connected to your computer. You can then synchronize the
contents
of your iPod at any later time.

To to this, you must have a backup of your iTunes database and
the
extended information file in the ~/.gtkpod/ directory (choose
the
backup option in the prefs menu for automatic backups).

Before importing your iTunes database, you must select the
"Offline"
option in the "Files" menu. (The import and export of your
iTunes
database will then be done from or to ~/.gtkpod/.) Then import
your
iTunes database.

You can modify (add tracks, add playlists, modify playlists,
delete
playlists, delete tracks) as usual. When you export your
iTunesDB, it
will be written to ~/.gtkpod/ along with an extended information
file
(even if you have not chosen that option in the prefs menu),
tagging
the tracks not yet transferred.

Next time around you can import the database as described above,
switch off the offline mode, and export the iTunes database to
your
iPod. The contents of your iPod hard drive are then brought up
to
date.


Export of Tracks (Copy from iPod)
---------------------------------

- mark the tracks you want to export and select "Export Tracks
from
  Database" from the file menu (or use the context sensitive
menu)
- A file selection dialog window appears and you can choose the
directory
  you'd like the selected files to be written to.
- You can specify the output filename in the prefs dialog by
  specifying a template (e.g. "%A/%a - %t"). You can specify
multiple
  templates for different file formats by separating them by a
  semicolon (e.g. "%A/%a - %t.mp3;%t.wav"). See the tooltip in
the
  prefs dialog for a list of identifiers.


Encoding of ID3 tags (charsets)
-------------------------------
If you use correctly written unicode ID3V2 tags you don't have
to
worry about the charset setting.

Otherwise you must specify the carset to be used for
representing ID3
tags in the preferences menu. The default is "System Charset",
which
is the charset associated with the locale gtkpod is running
under. If
your tags are stored in a different encoding, you should set it
appropriately.

Please note that if necessary you can change the charset each
time you
add files or directories: the iTunesDB itself is using UTF16, so
once
tags are imported correctly, changing the charset has no
influence.

If you chose "Japanese (automatic detection)", gtkpod will try
to
determine if the string is in ISO-2022-JP, Shift_JIS, or EUC-JP
(Hankaku Katakana (1-byte Katakana) may not be recognised
correctly --
specify the correct encoding if you run into this problem). The
actual
encoding used for the ID tags will be stored and will be used
when
writing tags or doing updates/syncs. Check the "Use selected
charset
also when updating or syncing tracks" and "Use selected charset
when
writing tags" options if you want to specify a particular
character
set when writing or updating/syncing. The default charset is
"EUC-JP"
-- it will be used when the charset cannot be autodetected, as
well as
when writing tags if a specific charset could not be determined
before.

gtkpod will recognize ID3V2 tags encoded in unicode
automatically and
ignore your charset setting when necessary.


Extracting tag information from the filename
--------------------------------------------
Tags can also be extracted from the filename if you activate the
option 'Use this template to parse filename for tag information'
and
supply a template that explains how the filanames are
constructed.

For filenames like 
    music/new/latin1/alan_jackson - drive/01
drive_for_daddy_gene.mp3
you could use
    %a - %A/%T %*.mp3

to extract artist, alabum, track number and title.

The following character sequences are supported:

    %t: title
    %a: artist
    %A: album
    %c: composer
    %t: title
    %g: genre
    %T: track number
    %C: CD number
    %*: placeholder, ignore data
    %%: the character '%'

You cannot supply a template like "%a%t.mp3" because gtkpod
would not
know how to separate artist and title. "%a_%t.mp3" would be
correct,
if artist and title are separated by an underscore.

You can also omit the trailing ".mp3" if you want the template
to
apply to all files instead of only to mp3 files.


Checking iPod's Files
---------------------
For whatever reason -- it may happen that tracks are present in
your
iTunesDB that are no longer present on the iPod (dangling
tracks), or
that tracks are on the iPod but not in the iTunesDB (orphaned
tracks).

The function "Checking iPod's Files" under the "File" menu will
identify both types and take the following actions:

Orphaned tracks:
A new playlist "[Orphaned]" will be created with all orphaned
tracks
in it. The only exception are orphaned tracks that would become
duplicates (if duplicate detection is activated). Those are
marked for
deletion with the next sync.

Dangling tracks:
These tracks will be marked for deletion with the next sync
unless the
original PC file is still available. In that case you can have
them
restored with the next sync.


Restoring your iPod after file system error
-------------------------------------------
If iPod's file system gets corrpted and you need to reformat
your
iPod, there is a way to restore the contents semi-automatically
if you
have been using the "backup to ~/.gtkpod" and "write extended
information file" (iTunesDB.ext) options:

1) Make gtkpod think it still needs to copy the tracks 
  
$ perl -p -i -e 's/transferred=1/transferred=0/g'
~/.gtkpod/iTunesDB.ext

2) Import the iTunesDB in "Offline" mode

3) Switch to "Online" mode

4) Export iTunesDB

This should restore your iPod to what it was before, provided
you
didn't move or remove any of the original tracks on your
harddrive, and
the charset information was stored correctly.


Playcounts & Rating
-------------------

Whenever you play a track completely on the iPod (firmware
version 1.3
or higher) a counter in a the "Play Counts" file will be
increased by
one. The same file also contains the rating you can set with the
3rd
generation iPods.

This file appears to be deleted whenever the iPod resets itself
--
e.g. because you disconnect it from the computer. Therefore, be
careful... Charging the iPod seems to do no harm.

When gtkpod is started, it will also read this file and
incorporate
the information into the iTunesDB that can be written back to
the
iPod.

There have been several requests to also register playcounts
when
playing a track on the local machine. This is possible by
calling
gtkpod as "gtkpod -p <filename>".

If gtkpod is already running, the playcount of that track there
will
be increased by one. If gtkpod is not already running, the
playcount
will be registered in ~/.gtkpod/offline_playcount. This file
will be
read the next time you import the iTunesDB from your iPod, and
the
playcounts will be updated accordingly.

Please note that if you start several instances of gtkpod, only
the
first instance will register playcounts through "gtkpod -p".

Now all you have to do is tell your favorite player to call
gtkpod
with the filename of the played track.

For xmms this is possible as of July 18th, 2004 (CVS
version). Versions before that (including 1.2.10) only allow you
to
have an external program called at the beginning of a track. Our
patch
allows to have an external program called also at the end of a
track.

In each case you will need to activate the "General Plugin"
called
"song_change" and configure it to call 'gtkpod -p "%f"'.


About filenames (excerpt from the GTK2 release notes):
------------------------------------------------------
* The assumption of GLib and GTK+ by default is that filenames
on the
  filesystem are encoded in UTF-8 rather than the encoding of
the locale;
  The GTK+ developers consider that having filenames whose
interpretation
  depends on the current locale is fundamentally a bad idea.

  If you have filenames encoded in the encoding of your locale,
then
  you may want to set the G_BROKEN_FILENAMES environment
variable:
  
   G_BROKEN_FILENAMES=1
   export G_BROKEN_FILENAMES

  Best integration of GTK+-2.0 with the environment is achieved
by 
  using a UTF-8 locale.

------ end of excerpt

It is my feeling that many people use filenames encoded in the
encoding of the locale. The "Add directories" dialogue already
takes
care of this and assumes the filenames to be in the same
encoding as
you have specified for the ID3 tags (see above). You can
therefore
forget about the excerpt above.

However, the "Add Files" and "Add Playlists" dialogue (at the
moment)
uses the standard GTK+-2.0 file selection dialogue. Therefore I
have
no access on the conversion functions used, and a warning is
printed
when filenames are encountered that are encoded in a an encoding
other
than the once of the current locale. ID3 tags are still read
currectly
(according to the charset set in the preference dialogue).


*--------------------------------------------------*
|                                                  |
|  Environment variables		           |
|                                                  |
*--------------------------------------------------*

The following environment variables can be set if needed:

IPOD_MOUNTPOINT: Defines the mountpoint of the iPod. This
overwrites
the value stored in the prefs, but is overwritten by the command
line
argument "-m" or "--mountpoint".

GTKPOD_DF_COMMAND: Only used on systems without statvfs().
Defines the
"df" command to be used for probing the free space on the iPod
including command line arguments. Default is "df -k -P". On some
systems it may be necessary to remove the "-P" option. The mount
point
is added to this command line automatically. You can switch off
calls
to df by setting this environment variable to an empty string.



*--------------------------------------------------*
|                                                  |
|  Icons for window managers		           |
|                                                  |
*--------------------------------------------------*

Should you require an icon for your window manager you can use
those
provided in $(datadir)/pixmaps (usually
/usr/local/share/gtkpod/pixmaps or
/usr/share/gtkpod/pixmaps).

Currently the following files are available:

  gtkpod-icon-32.png
  gtkpod-icon-32x32.png
  gtkpod-icon-32x32-2.png
  gtkpod-icon-48.png
  gtkpod-icon-48x48.png
  gtkpod-icon-64x64.png


*--------------------------------------------------*
|                                                  |
|  Connecting iPod to a Linux box	           |
|  (kernel 2.6.6)                                  |
|  (should also work with earlier 2.6 kernels)     |
|                                                  |
*--------------------------------------------------*

This describes how to set up the iPod together with the
automounter in
kernel V2.6.6 (some minor changes in the kernel configuration
may be
necessary for older V2.6 versions).

1) It appears to be possible to use HFS-formatted (Apple)
   iPods. However, this short guide assumes you have a Windows
   (VFAT) iPod. For conversion from HFS to VFAT please see 

   http://www.blinkenlights.ch/gnupod/gnupod.html#SEC6

2) I'm using the following kernel configuration options (I'm
only
   using FireWire -- so the USB options are just educated
   guesses. Please let me know if it works).

   I'm not using modules, simply because what's compiled in
can't fail
   loading.

    * General Setup  -> Support for hot-pluggable devices - y
    * Device Drivers -> SCSI device support - y
    *                -> SCSI device support -> SCSI disk support
- y
    *                -> SCSI device support -> SCSI generic
support - y
For FireWire:
    *                -> IEEE1394 (FireWire) support - y
    *                -> IEEE1394 (FireWire) support -> OHCI-1394
support - y
    *                -> IEEE1394 (FireWire) support -> SBP-2
support - y
For USB:
    *                -> USB support -> Support for Host-side USB
- y
    *                                       -> EHCI HCD support
- y
    *                                       -> OHCI HCD support
- y
    *                                       -> UHCI HCD support
- y
    *                                       -> USB Mass Storage
support - y
For USB and FireWire:
    * Filesystems    -> DOS/FAT/NT Filesystems - y
    *                -> DOS/FAT/NT Filesystems -> VFAT fs
support - y
    *                -> Kernel automounter version 4 support - y
    *                -> Native Language Support
    *                            -> Codepage 437
(CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_437)
    *                            -> NLS ISO 8859-1
(CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_1) 



(for iPods formatted with the HFS filesystem choose
    * Filesystems -> Miscellaneous filesystems
			   -> Apple Extended HFS filesystem support)

At least for the new 4Gs and iPod minis you should _disable_
(CONFIG_EFI_PARTITION, see Troubleshooting for more
information):
    * File Systems -> Partition Types -> Advanced Partition
Selection
		   -> EFI GUID Partition support

3) You need to install the following external packages:

   hotplug and udev (http://linux-hotplug.sourceforge.net/)
   autofs (ftp.kernel.org:/pub/linux/daemons/autofs)

   Most likely packages are available for your distribution.

4) Write rules for udev (/etc/udev/udev.rules, add at the
beginning)
   to recognize your iPod automatically (mind the spaces within
   "iPod..."):

BUS="scsi", SYSFS{model}="iPod            ", KERNEL="sd?2",
NAME="%k", SYMLINK="ipod"

   This will map /dev/sd?2 to /dev/ipod everytime you plug in
your
   iPod. That even works if you own more than one USB/Firewire
device
   that shows up as a harddisk, independent of the order in
which you
   connect the devices.

   (You need to replace "sd?2" with "sd?1" (or maybe just "sd?")
for
   HFS formatted iPods.)

   For more information on how to write udev rules please refer
to
   http://www.gamingclones.com/Howtos/udevrules.html. That
document
   gives an easy-to-understand introduction

5) Set up autofs to automatically mount the iPod when you access
it
   and unmount it after 2 seconds of inactivity. In
/etc/auto.master
   add:

/var/autofs/removable   /etc/auto.removable
--timeout=2,sync,nodev,nosuid,gid=autofs,umask=007

   Adjust the gid,umask (and uid) values to whatever you need --
in this
   example all users in the group "autofs" have read/write
access, and
   I have added all users that may access the iPod to the autofs
group.

   In /etc/auto.removable add

ipod            -fstype=vfat            :/dev/ipod

   (Obviously you need to change the filesystem type from 'vfat'
to
   'hfsplus' when you use an HFS formatted iPod.)

   Then simply add a link from /mnt/ipod:

   ln -s /var/autofs/removable/ipod /mnt/ipod


Now your system is configured to mount the iPod every time you
access
/mnt/ipod and to unmount it again after two seconds of
inactivity. You
won't have to worry about doing mounting/unmouting yourself any
more.



*--------------------------------------------------*
|                                                  |
|  Connecting iPod to a Linux box (IEEE 1394)      |
|  (kernel 2.4.21)                                 |
|  (may also work with 2.4.20, but I didn't try)   |
|  (instructions for 2.4.20 can be found below)    |
|                                                  |
*--------------------------------------------------*

1) You need a Windows iPod. See e.g.

http://www.blinkenlights.ch/gnupod/gnupod.html#SEC6

for information about how to convert your mac iPod to a windows
iPod.

Alternatively, I have received a report that Alan Cox's patches
(2.4.21-rc8-ac1, but 2.4.21-ac1 should work as well) include
hfsplus
support. That should allow you to use hfs formatted iPods. But
beware:
hfsplus support is still beta.

2) Get kernel source and configure
Needed configuration:

    * Code maturity level options - y
    * SCSI support - y
    * SCSI disk support - y
    * IEEE1394 (FireWire)/IEEE 1394 (FireWire) support
(Experimental) - y
    * OHCI-1394 support - y
    * SBP-2 support - m (important to use module -- if someone
finds
      out how to use hotplug with sbp2 compiled in, let me know)
      (With 2.6.1 compiling sbp2 in seems to work fine.)
At least for the new 4Gs and iPod minis you should _disable_
(CONFIG_EFI_PARTITION, see Troubleshooting for more
information):
    * File Systems -> Partition Types -> Advanced Partition
Selection
		   -> EFI GUID Partition support
    *              -> Native Language Support
    *                            -> Codepage 437
(CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_437)
    *                            -> NLS ISO 8859-1
(CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_1) 


3) Create /mnt/ipod:

   mkdir /mnt/ipod

4) Add a line to /etc/fstab. You should edit uid to match your
user
   id. Also, /dev/sda2 may not be appropriate, if you have other
scsi
   devices.

/dev/sda2	/mnt/ipod	vfat rw,user,noauto,noatime,errors=remount 0
0

   (For HFS this line should read

/dev/sda  /mnt/ipod  hfsplus  rw,user,noauto,exec  0  0

    please note that it's just '/dev/sda')


NOTE: Some users have had problems with newer versions of
mount(newer than
mount-2.11h) The following fstab entry might work better for
you.

/dev/sda2	/mnt/ipod	vfat rw,user,noauto,noatime,shortname=winnt
0 0

5) Install the hotplug utilities
   (http://linux-hotplug.sourceforge.net/, debian package:
'hotplug')

   (If you don't want to use the hotplug utilities, you must
call the
   rescan-scsi-bus.sh (see below) by hand after loading the sbp2
   module. This is different from 2.4.20.)

5a) Add the ieee1394 hotplug support (described at
    http://www.linux1394.org/faq.html#hotplug):

   - copy ieee1394.agent to /etc/hotplug/ from

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/linux-hotplug/admin/etc/hotplug/
   - mkdir /etc/hotplug/ieee1394
   - create /etc/hotplug/ieee1394/sbp2:
       #!/bin/bash
       if [ "${ACTION}" = "add" ]; then
	 . /etc/hotplug/ieee1394/rescan-scsi-bus.sh
       else
	 . /etc/hotplug/ieee1394/rescan-scsi-bus.sh -r
       fi
   - chmod +rx /etc/hotplug/ieee1394/sbp2
   - copy rescan-scsi-bus.sh to /etc/hotplug/ieee1394 from
     http://www.garloff.de/kurt/linux/rescan-scsi-bus.sh
   - just to be sure: restart hotplug:
	/etc/init.d/hotplug restart

6) Connect your iPod to your computer and wait until you see
something
   like the following on your system log (you can use the
'dmesg'
   command to check).

Jun 15 17:13:53 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: Node 00:1023
changed to 01:1023
Jun 15 17:13:55 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: Node 01:1023
changed to 00:1023
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: sbp2: Logged
into SBP-2 device
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: Device added:
Node[00:1023]  GUID[000a2700020680b5]  [Apple Computer, Inc.]
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: Node 00:1023
changed to 01:1023
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel: scsi singledevice 0 0 0 0
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel:   Vendor: Apple     Model:
iPod              Rev: 1.30
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel:   Type:   Direct-Access
ANSI SCSI revision: 02
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel: Attached scsi removable
disk sda at scsi0, channel 0, id 0, lun 0
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel: SCSI device sda: 39062520
512-byte hdwr sectors (20000 MB)
Jun 15 17:13:57 hatarakibachi kernel: sda: test WP failed,
assume Write Enabled
Jun 15 17:13:58 hatarakibachi kernel:  sda: sda1 sda2
Jun 15 17:13:58 hatarakibachi kernel: scsi singledevice 0 0 1 0
....

7) Mount the iPod hard drive

   mount /mnt/ipod

8) do whatever you need to do (e.g. start gtkpod, see below)

9) Unmount the iPod:

    umount /mnt/ipod

10) Unload the module sbp2 (as most likely as root):

    rmmod sbp2

11) Disconnect the iPod from your computer (ignore the "Do not
    disconnect" message -- as long as you wait for the 'unmount'
to
    command to finish properly, everything should be fine).



*--------------------------------------------------*
|                                                  |
|  Connecting iPod to a Linux box using IEEE 1394  |
|  (kernel 2.4.20)                                 |
|  (connecting to 2.4.21 seems to work slightly    |
|   differently -- see above)                      |
|                                                  |
*--------------------------------------------------*

1) You need a Windows iPod. See e.g.

http://www.blinkenlights.ch/gnupod/gnupod.html#SEC6

for information about how to convert your mac iPod to a windows
iPod.

Alternatively, I have received a report that Alan Cox's patches
(2.4.21-rc8-ac1, but 2.4.21-ac1 should work as well) include
hfsplus
support. That should allow you to use hfs formatted iPods. But
beware:
hfsplus support is still beta.

2) Get kernel source and configure
Needed configuration:

    * Code maturity level options - y
    * SCSI support - y
    * SCSI disk support - m
    * IEEE1394 (FireWire)/IEEE 1394 (FireWire) support
(Experimental) - y
    * OHCI-1394 support - y
    * SBP-2 support - m
At least for the new 4Gs and iPod minis you should _disable_
(CONFIG_EFI_PARTITION, see Troubleshooting for more
information):
    * File Systems -> Partition Types -> Advanced Partition
Selection
    *	   	   -> EFI GUID Partition support
    *              -> Native Language Support
    *                          -> Codepage 437
(CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_437)
    *                          -> NLS ISO 8859-1
(CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_1) 

3) Create /mnt/ipod:

   mkdir /mnt/ipod

4) Add a line to /etc/fstab. You should edit uid to match your
user
   id. Also, /dev/sda2 may not be appropriate, if you have other
scsi
   devices.

/dev/sda2	/mnt/ipod	vfat rw,user,noauto,noatime 0 0

   (For HFS this line should read

/dev/sda  /mnt/ipod  hfsplus  rw,user,noauto,exec  0  0

    please note that it's just '/dev/sda')


NOTE: Some users have had problems with newer versions of
mount(newer than
mount-2.11h) The following fstab entry might work better for
you.

/dev/sda2	/mnt/ipod	vfat rw,user,noauto,noatime,shortname=winnt
0 0

NOTE: You can add ",umask=0" to the options to make the iPod
readable/writable for all users.

5) Connect your iPod to your computer and wait until you see
something
   like the following on your system log (you can use the
'dmesg'
   command to check).

Nov 28 21:58:06 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: Node 00:1023
changed to 01:1023
Nov 28 21:58:09 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: Node 01:1023
changed to 00:1023
Nov 28 21:58:12 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: NodeMgr: hotplug
policy returned -2
Nov 28 21:58:12 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: Device added:
Node[00:1023]  GUID[000a2700020680b5]  [Apple Computer, Inc.]
Nov 28 21:58:12 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: Node 00:1023
changed to 01:1023

6) Load the sbp2 module (most likely as root):

   modprobe sbp2

   You should see something like the following on your system
log:

Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: ieee1394: sbp2: Logged
into SBP-2 device
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: scsi0 : IEEE-1394 SBP-2
protocol driver (host: ohci1394)
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: $Rev$ James Goodwin
<jamesg@filanet.com>
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: SBP-2 module load options:
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: - Max speed supported:
S400
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: - Max sectors per I/O
supported: 255
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: - Max outstanding commands
supported: 8
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: - Max outstanding commands
per lun supported: 1
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: - Serialized I/O (debug):
no
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: - Exclusive login: yes
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel:   Vendor: Apple     Model:
iPod              Rev: 1.21
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel:   Type:   Direct-Access
ANSI SCSI revision: 02
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: Attached scsi removable
disk sda at scsi0, channel 0, id 0, lun 0
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: SCSI device sda: 39062520
512-byte hdwr sectors (20000 MB)
Nov 28 21:58:38 hatarakibachi kernel: sda: test WP failed,
assume Write Enabled
Nov 28 21:58:39 hatarakibachi kernel:  sda: sda1 sda2

7) Mount the iPod hard drive

   mount /mnt/ipod

8) do whatever you need to do (e.g. start gtkpod, see below)

9) Unmount the iPod:

    umount /mnt/ipod

10) Unload the module sbp2 (as most likely as root):

    rmmod sbp2

11) Disconnect the iPod from your computer.


*--------------------------------------------------*
|                                                  |
|  Connecting iPod to a Linux box (USB)            |
|                                                  |
*--------------------------------------------------*

I don't have much information about this so far (I don't own a
third
generation iPod). Please help me to fill in the gaps.

Stephen Drye sent me the following note:

"I've figured out how to get a USB-connected iPod recognized...:

The trick to it is that you have to 

- plug the iPod in

- it'll fail to be recognized by the SCSI subsystem

- now, even though your ipod says not to, unplug the USB cord
and
  immediately plug it back in.

- since the iPod's hdd was already spun up, the SCSI subsystem
now
  recognizes it and mounts it as /dev/sda

- You can then mount /dev/sda2 to /mnt/ipod as normal."

On the other hand: with my 4G iPod under 2.6.9 and 2.6.10 I
never had
any problem whatsoever getting the iPod to work. With IEEE it
was
awful (would work some times, would not some other time).


*----------------------------------*
|                                  |
|     Sick of loading the sbp2     |
|         modules by hand?         |
|                                  |
|         Corey Donohoe            |
|     <atmos at atmos dot org>     |
|         March 22nd 2003          |
|                                  |
*----------------------------------*

Sick of loading the sbp2 modules by hand every time you want to
use your
ipod?  Are you sick of mounting it too?  Using sudo gtkpod can
make manually
interacting with the ipod filesystem a thing of the past.  Note
that you
should have your ipod working with gtkpod before attempting this
automated
method, see the README that came with gtkpod in order to get
things up and
running.

Here's a brief example of how I'm using gtkpod now in 8 easy
steps.

(Remark: the hotplug facility of new kernels can also load and
unload
the sbp2 module for you.)

/**********/
 * Step 1 *
/**********/
Using sudo allow users to load/remove the sbp2 module
Example /etc/sudoers
------------------------------- Begin Here
---------------------------------

# Cmnd alias specification
Cmnd_Alias IPOD=/sbin/modprobe sbp2 sbp2_force_inquiry_hack=1,
/sbin/rmmod sbp2
# User privilege specification
atmos   ALL=(ALL) ALL
atmos   ALL= NOPASSWD : IPOD

------------------------------- End Here
-----------------------------------
I use the force inquiry hack cause I have an older iPod, if you
normally can
get by with /sbin/modprobe sbp2 then ignore the inquiry hack
stuff.  Note
that explicitly specifying with module to probe/remove keeps the
user from
being able to add/remove arbitrary modules.  This allows us to
keep gtkpod
as a user process, and execute commands the user wouldn't
usually have
enough rights to.

/**********/
 * Step 2 *
/**********/
Add a line similar to the below to your /etc/fstab, this will
enable users
to mount the ipod with read/write capabilities.  Example line
assumes your
ipod mount point is /mnt/ipod and your ipod is detected as
/dev/sda

------------------------------- Begin Here
---------------------------------
/dev/sda2       /mnt/ipod       vfat    rw,user,noauto
0       0
------------------------------- End Here
-----------------------------------


/**********/
 * Step 3 *
/**********/
Then setup your /etc/gtkpod/gtkpod.in file to load the module
when gtkpod is
started.
Example /etc/gtkpod/gtkpod.in
------------------------------- Begin Here
---------------------------------

sudo /sbin/modprobe sbp2 sbp2_force_inquiry_hack=1

------------------------------- End Here
-----------------------------------

/**********/
 * Step 4 *
/**********/

Then setup your /etc/gtkpod/gtkpod.out file to unload the module
when gtkpod
is exited.
Example /etc/gtkpod/gtkpod.out
------------------------------- Begin Here
---------------------------------

sudo /sbin/rmmod sbp2 

------------------------------- End Here
-----------------------------------

/**********/
 * Step 5 *
/**********/
Then enable ipod automounting in the gtkpod prefs(in the misc
tab).

/**********/
 * Step 6 *
/**********/
You're now ready to use gtkpod in a much nicer fashion.  Start
by
plugging in your ipod.  You should get a check mark with "OK to
disconnect"
displayed on your ipod.

/**********/
 * Step 7 *
/**********/
Start gtkpod, your ipod should be accessible(i.e. autoimport
should work)
A "Do Not Disconnect" message is displayed on your ipod while
gtkpod is
running.

/**********/
 * Step 8 *
/**********/
After you exit gtkpod, the "OK to disconnect" message should be
displayed
again.  It's ok to unplug your ipod now.  

Good Luck. 



*----------------------------------*
|                                  |
|           Known bugs             |
|                                  |
*----------------------------------*


- Display of large number of tracks is awfully slow (mainly
because of
  the use of the standard GTK2 tree views) -> deactivate
"Automatically
  select "All" in first filter tab" and/or deactivate
"Automatically
  select master playlist". You could also "block the display" to
speed
  up the display update. Further, decreasing the window size
  considerably speeds up the display.

  I also want to point out that updating the info window takes
up a
  considerable amount of time. Update may become more
intelligent in
  the future -- until then close the info window for more speed.

- When changing selections in the filter tabs while importing
the
  iTunesDB, sometimes the interface freezes. I tried to track
this
  problem down but only found out that gtk+ does not return
control
  back to gtkpod. Selecting the "All" filter tabs seems to
unfreeze the
  interace again.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 5:21:42 AM
RonB stated in post h9eudi$ls$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09 10:00
PM:

> Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system falls
>> down is when it comes to the software titles available for Windows. Every
>> "shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the pants off of any open
>> source "alternative". Now while many of these might be OK for home use, most
>> of them require far more work than their shrink'd counterparts and are far
>> behind the commercial stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this
>> doesn't bother you, go for it.
> 
> I'll tell my ex-boss that he needs to uninstall Open Office on his
> Windows work machines -- because, even though we successfully used it to
> replace Microsoft Office, I've now been told on a newsgroup that it
> won't work for work. So what other shrink wrapped product were you
> talking about, specifically?

You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office, but
I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place where
OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?

>> Yes. 
>> 
>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open
>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to
>> an iPod on a Linux box?
> 
> I don't own an iPod, but ripping music can be done with several Linux
> applications. The one I have on my CentOS computer is Sound Juicer -- it
> was installed by default. When I want to move ripped songs to my Palm
> Centro, I just copy them to the Centro's Micro SD card. (Non problem
> solved.)
> 
> For those who *do* own iPODs, there is Linux software that allows them
> to sync directly to their computer.



-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 5:32:24 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
(in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
> 
>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>> open 
>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it 
>> to 
>> an iPod on a Linux box?
> 
> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
> 
> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
> They prefer other brands of music players in general.

Ah, you must mean the cheap ones. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 6:22:44 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:18:16 -0700, Hemidactylus* wrote
(in article <CcydnYq6IOabbifXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@giganews.com>):

> On 09/23/2009 11:54 PM, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>> open
>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it 
>>> to
>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>> 
>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>> 
>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>  >
> Has Apple *as a corporation* released iTunes or Safari for Linux? How 
> can Linuxheads synch iPods if Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about them, 
> but kisses Microsoft's a$$?
> 
> I can get Google Chrome for Linux (though still not polished). I can get 
> Opera for Linux. I can get Firefox for Linux. Piece of cake.
> 
> Why does Apple release iTunes and Safari for the use of Windows users, 
> but not Linux users? Or has this changed since the last time I checked.
> 
> http://www.apple.com/safari/
> 
> For Mac + PC
> 
> http://www.apple.com/downloads/
> 
> Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load Mac 
> OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because Microsoft 
> might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC dorkfest commercials 
> in a new light.

Sheer numbers, my friend, sheer numbers. I suspect that Apple finds Linux 
simply too small a market to worry about. Add to that the myriad of 
distributions and number of different GUIs in use on that platform, and I 
suspect Apple just figured that it's not worth it..... yet. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 6:25:19 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>> open 
>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it 
>>> to 
>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>> 
>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>> 
>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
> 
> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.

Hahaha!

Yea, I suppose...

Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different
players and the iPod sets the standard. It really does.

If all you are going to do is dump some music to a player and
shuffle the songs, I would say to save your money and buy
something like Sansa etc.

However, if you are an enthusiast and want to interface the
player with your car *fully*, not just via an Aux jack, or you
are looking for accessories, it's all iPod, and oddly Zune.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 6:27:57 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:

> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?

The license.
Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui.
Space needed to install.
Generated file sizes.
Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
Price
Variety of operating systems it will install on.
Did I mention the license?
0
stonerfish (296)
9/24/2009 6:30:12 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:11:51 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote
(in article <slrnhblorn.2u4.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):

> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote
>> (in article <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>> 
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote
>>>> (in article <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, 
>>>>>> however 
>>>>>> slightly.
>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>>>>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>> 
>>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>>> 
>>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free (like 
>>> software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free beer).
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point 
>> about 
>> about free software. 
> 
>       You don't even want to go there...
> 
>       Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.
> 
> 

I'd say that you were giving MS a lot of credit. How about  Microsoft: the 
Old Milwaukee of operating systems? or  Microsoft: the Brown Derby of 
operating systems? Or, if we want to go really bad, perhaps Microsoft: the 
Coors Light of operating systems? Coors Light. Now there's a redundancy. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 6:30:48 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:25:19 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:18:16 -0700, Hemidactylus* wrote
> (in article <CcydnYq6IOabbifXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@giganews.com>):
> 
>> On 09/23/2009 11:54 PM, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>>> open
>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it 
>>>> to
>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>> 
>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>> 
>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>>  >
>> Has Apple *as a corporation* released iTunes or Safari for Linux? How 
>> can Linuxheads synch iPods if Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about them, 
>> but kisses Microsoft's a$$?
>> 
>> I can get Google Chrome for Linux (though still not polished). I can get 
>> Opera for Linux. I can get Firefox for Linux. Piece of cake.
>> 
>> Why does Apple release iTunes and Safari for the use of Windows users, 
>> but not Linux users? Or has this changed since the last time I checked.
>> 
>> http://www.apple.com/safari/
>> 
>> For Mac + PC
>> 
>> http://www.apple.com/downloads/
>> 
>> Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load Mac 
>> OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because Microsoft 
>> might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC dorkfest commercials 
>> in a new light.
> 
> Sheer numbers, my friend, sheer numbers. I suspect that Apple finds Linux 
> simply too small a market to worry about. Add to that the myriad of 
> distributions and number of different GUIs in use on that platform, and I 
> suspect Apple just figured that it's not worth it..... yet.

That's preciously the problem.
I don't see it changing unless the Linux community finally
decides that 500+ different distributions really isn't a great
idea.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 6:33:45 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:30:12 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
>> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
>> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
> 
> The license.

True.

> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui.

Not many will care.


> Space needed to install.

Probably less.


> Generated file sizes.

You had better double check that one.


> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.

Most are still using doc..

> Price

Yes.


> Variety of operating systems it will install on.

Yea, but realistically it still has to interface with MSOffice
and that's where OO falls down.

It's also sluggish and ugly looking (IMHO).

> Did I mention the license?

Yes you did....

Look, most folks don't even scratch the surface of what even
ABIWord can do.
OO is probably fine for these people, but even still for
critical documents, like job applications, resume's, legal
documents, I simply would not trust it.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 6:37:53 AM
Fa-groon wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>> open 
>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it 
>>> to 
>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>
>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
> 
> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones. 

Or not. A Palm Centro is no cheaper than an Apple iPOD.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 6:40:07 AM
jellybean stonerfish stated in post UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad on
9/23/09 11:30 PM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
>> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
>> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
> 
> The license.

A benefit - it is free to copy - but I was looking for intrinsic things to
the programs.

> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui.

There at times I would benefit from this, but I suspect most users would
not... being that they never use the CLI.  Still, for scripts made by
"experts" it could benefit the general user.

> Space needed to install.

Not that big of a deal on modern systems

> Generated file sizes.

Again, not a big deal for most.

> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.

Opening MS Office files is more important for most... and MS Office does
this better.

> Price

Tied to license.  For most there is no real difference.

> Variety of operating systems it will install on.

MS Office runs on OS X and Windows... O

> Did I mention the license?

I think so.  :)

Opening MS Office files, having better style control and cropping I bet are
more important to most users.

<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/fullOfCrop.mov>
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp/>
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp2/>

The ribbon is also a pretty big deal - as is the generally just more
polished UI.

-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 6:43:57 AM
Moshe Goldfarb stated in post h9f43v$tll$1@news.eternal-september.org on
9/23/09 11:37 PM:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:30:12 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
>>> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
>>> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>> 
>> The license.
> 
> True.

Mostly tied to price... and the primary reason I suggest it (but I would not
if it did not work!)

>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui.
> 
> Not many will care.

I can see for scripting where this might matter... though for my scripting
on OS X the fact there is some GUI action really does not matter.
 
>> Space needed to install.
> 
> Probably less.

Not really an issue for many

>> Generated file sizes.
> 
> You had better double check that one.

Either way, how many would care?
 
>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
> 
> Most are still using doc..

Or docx.  I am seeing those more and more.

>> Price
> 
> Yes.

Tied to license.
 
>> Variety of operating systems it will install on.
> 
> Yea, but realistically it still has to interface with MSOffice
> and that's where OO falls down.
> 
> It's also sluggish and ugly looking (IMHO).

The UI is clearly not as polished.
 
>> Did I mention the license?
> 
> Yes you did....
> 
> Look, most folks don't even scratch the surface of what even
> ABIWord can do.
> OO is probably fine for these people, but even still for
> critical documents, like job applications, resume's, legal
> documents, I simply would not trust it.

And even for simple docs it often is not as easy.

-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 6:49:03 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:27:57 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
(in article <h9f3hb$pni$1@news.eternal-september.org>):

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>>> open 
>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync 
>>>> it 
>>>> to 
>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>> 
>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>> 
>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>> 
>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
> 
> Hahaha!
> 
> Yea, I suppose...
> 
> Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different
> players and the iPod sets the standard. It really does.

There are two classes of music player buyers who don't buy iPods: The 
incredibly cheap and the Apple haters who would rather cut their noses off to 
spite their own faces than buy an Apple product. Their loss, I'm afraid. 
> 
> If all you are going to do is dump some music to a player and
> shuffle the songs, I would say to save your money and buy
> something like Sansa etc.

I still think that the iPod will last longer and work better. 
> 
> However, if you are an enthusiast and want to interface the
> player with your car *fully*, not just via an Aux jack, or you
> are looking for accessories, it's all iPod, and oddly Zune.

Zune is too little too late. At the risk of making a bad pun, most people 
will likely just pass on a Zune. 


0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 7:15:51 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:40:07 -0700, RonB wrote
(in article <h9f489$ulf$1@news.eternal-september.org>):

> Fa-groon wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>>> open 
>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync 
>>>> it 
>>>> to 
>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>> 
>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>> 
>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones. 
> 
> Or not. A Palm Centro is no cheaper than an Apple iPOD.
> 
> 

Yeah, you get what you pay for. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 7:16:30 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote
(in article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
>> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
>> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
> 
> The license.
> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui.
> Space needed to install.
> Generated file sizes.
> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
> Price
> Variety of operating systems it will install on.
> Did I mention the license?

Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world has 
standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS Office 
files, it's not 100%. In fact, it's not even 80% compatible. It mostly falls 
down in the area of in-line placed images and graphics drawn with MS drawing 
tools and in some cases, special characters above above ASCII 255. It's not 
that it is totally incompatible as it works with some graphics and not with 
others and it causes some pages to reflow screwing up such things as 
illustration references, relationships between images and text. They've come 
a long way, but they have a lot further to go and of course, MS is aware of 
their efforts and keeps changing the rules in order to stay one step ahead of 
OO in terms of compatibility.

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 7:28:40 AM
Fa-groon stated in post 0001HW.C6E06DB80033010AF01846D8@news.giganews.com on
9/24/09 12:28 AM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote
> (in article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
>>> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
>>> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>> 
>> The license.
>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui.
>> Space needed to install.
>> Generated file sizes.
>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>> Price
>> Variety of operating systems it will install on.
>> Did I mention the license?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world has
> standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS Office
> files, it's not 100%. In fact, it's not even 80% compatible. It mostly falls
> down in the area of in-line placed images and graphics drawn with MS drawing
> tools and in some cases, special characters above above ASCII 255. It's not
> that it is totally incompatible as it works with some graphics and not with
> others and it causes some pages to reflow screwing up such things as
> illustration references, relationships between images and text. They've come
> a long way, but they have a lot further to go and of course, MS is aware of
> their efforts and keeps changing the rules in order to stay one step ahead of
> OO in terms of compatibility.
> 
Add to that some relatively basic functionality is broken in OpenOffice,
such as working with styles and lists:

    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>

Just wonky.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 7:53:07 AM
Fa-groon wrote:

> Yeah, you get what you pay for. 

Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap 
Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell 
it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what 
they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.

As for my Centro, it does what I need it to do -- of course I'm not that 
interested bragging about how much I spent for a portable MP3 player. 
I've got a life.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 9:05:39 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:05:39 -0500, RonB wrote:

> Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> Yeah, you get what you pay for. 
> 
> Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap 
> Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell 
> it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what 
> they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.

Typical freetard.
 
> As for my Centro, it does what I need it to do -- of course I'm not that 
> interested bragging about how much I spent for a portable MP3 player. 
> I've got a life.

Good for you....
That doesn't change the fact that the iPod is the top of the
line.
If you want to drive a Yugo, so be it...
People who know better, and can afford it, drive the best and
the best is the iPod.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 9:20:03 AM
RonB wrote:
> Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> Yeah, you get what you pay for. 
> 
> Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap 
> Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell 
> it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what 
> they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.

And here's why iPODs are "worth more" than other MP3 players...

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14915

~~
Apple's iPods are made by mainly female workers who earn as little as 
�27 per month, according to a report in the Mail on Sunday yesterday.

....
The Mail visited some of these factories and spoke with staff there. It 
reports that Foxconn's Longhua plant houses 200,000 workers, remarking: 
"This iPod City has a population bigger than Newcastle's."

The report claims Longhua's workers live in dormitories that house 100 
people, and that visitors from the outside world are not permitted. 
Workers toil for 15-hours a day to make the iconic music player, the 
report claims. They earn �27 per month. The report reveals that the iPod 
nano is made in a five-storey factory (E3) that is secured by police 
officers.

Another factory in Suzhou, Shanghai, makes iPod shuffles. The workers 
are housed outside the plant, and earn �54 per month - but they must pay 
for their accommodation and food, "which takes up half their salaries", 
the report observes.

A security guard told the Mail reporters that the iPod shuffle 
production lines are staffed by women workers because "they are more 
honest than male workers".
~~

Yeah, I know, the article is from 2006, but do you really think anything 
has changed since then?

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 9:34:25 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:34:25 -0500, RonB wrote:

> RonB wrote:
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> Yeah, you get what you pay for. 
>> 
>> Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap 
>> Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell 
>> it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what 
>> they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.
> 
> And here's why iPODs are "worth more" than other MP3 players...
> 
> http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14915
> 
> ~~
> Apple's iPods are made by mainly female workers who earn as little as 
> �27 per month, according to a report in the Mail on Sunday yesterday.

Yea...
And so are Nike sneakers, designer clothes, tires, brake pads
etc,.......
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 9:40:43 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 01:06:57 -0400, DFS wrote:

> RonB wrote:
>> *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> 
>>> And Linux cheats us out of that nice BSoD display. I miss that. Dammit
>>> I'm switching back. Linux is cheating me out of so much fun (AV scans,
>>> defrags, BSoD's). Good thing I'm not paying for it or I'd really get
>>> upset.
>>
>> Don't forget the ever-popular KSOD in Vista. Linux doesn't have that
>> sense of adventure -- that great leap into the unknown. That universal
>> *shrug* when you ask tech support how to fix the Black Screen of Death.
>> Dell's official position -- reinstall Vista. Microsoft's official
>> position -- reinstall Vista. What causes it? Uh...
>>
>> Linux just isn't fun anymore.
> 
> 
> Not after you've used a nice system like Vista or Win7, and some great
> commercial apps and games.  After that, using Linux is like stepping
> back 10 years.
> 
No, it doesn't.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 9:50:32 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:11:16 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Rick stated in post QbOdnUaN7P42fifXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
> 9/23/09 8:12 PM:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:55:03 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> Rick stated in post QbOdnUeN7P4NRyfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
>>> 9/23/09 7:33 PM:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower
>>>>> on 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>>>>>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>>>>>>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share,
>>>>>>>>> it may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This
>>>>>>>>> will get us closer to the world where software is free (as in
>>>>>>>>> beer).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows
>>>>>>>> 7) for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>>>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>>>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>>>>>>> Vista 7.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to
>>>>>>> "dupe" people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>>>>>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you
>>>>>> will again be bitten?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is much the same thing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard
>>>>> 
>>>>> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?
>>> 
>>> Why reach back into the desktop Linux "pit"?
>> 
>> It is not a pit. If you think of it as a viper pit, why do you still
>> use it?
> 
> I use it and Windows.  I was merely pushing your "analogy" back at you.
> 

I didn't ask what you used, I asked why you used it. You ran from the 
question.

And it isn't m analogy, yet you didn't push anything back at the person 
that originally used it, just me. 

You did not react well.  No surprise.

> 
>>> Sure, it has gotten better - much better - but it is still a mishmash
>>> of inconsistent and poorly followed UI standards
>> 
>> Not really.
> 
> Yes, really. 

Not really.

 >As I have shown.  But, as you prove below, you have no
> idea what I am talking about.  You just spew concepts that are not
> relevant as you make absurd accusations.

Could it be you call them irrelevant because they disprove you rants?

> 
> I do wish you could show some level of understanding... but I accept you
> cannot.

I do wish you could show some level of understanding... but I accept you 
cannot.

> 
>> Maybe one day you will understand that people like to be able to choose
>> from KDE, Gnome, XFCE, and other environments.
>> 
>> Maybe one day you will understand that KDE apps run in a KDE
>> environment are, for the most part, consistent, and that Gnome/gtk apps
>> run in a Gnome environment are, for the most part consistent, and that
>> the ability to run an app that is written for one environment in
>> another is a benefit.
>> 
>> And maybe one day you will understand that not all developers adhere to
>> published UI guidelines.
>> 
>> Maybe, but I doubt it.
>> 
>> 
>>> and it still is not well supported by Adobe or Apple or MS or other
>>> major software developers.
>> 
>> So what? There is much more software support for the Windows platform
>> than there is for the Mac platform.
> 
> Yes, there is.  And that is a benefit of Windows.
> 
>>> Do you expect users to
>>> keep testing it year after year hoping it gets better?
>> 
>> I expect that most of the users do what I do... use it to work and
>> play.
> 
> Then you expectations are wrong.  No surprise there!

You don't get to decide if -MY- expectations are wrong.

> 
>>> I hope they
>>> do... and I hope (and believe) Linux will get better.
>> 
>> Of course Linux systems will get better. Do you not hope Macs get
>> better? Do you not hope Windows will get better?
> 
> Of course I do.  Unlike you, though, I do not deny the problems any of
> the OSs currently have.

I do not deny there are areas in which FOSS can be improved.  I  think 
the majority of the  examples you use do not illustrate what you say they 
do. I also think you do not understand that the FOSS ecosystem is 
fundamentally different than the CSS ecosystem, and that you don't 
understand that many of the things you think are weaknesses are actually 
strengths.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:00:45 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:11:39 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Rick stated in post QbOdnUGN7P6teCfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
> 9/23/09 8:19 PM:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:10:11 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
>>> 7:05 PM:
>>> 
>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>>>> point about about free software.
>>>> 
>>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>>>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
>>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there
>>>> is specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
>>>> platform you need.
>>> 
>>> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there
>>> is no killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop
>>> Linux that is not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all
>>> sorts of niche software... OS X has the graphic and video industry and
>>> is tops for ease of use... but what claim can desktop Linux make -
>>> *any* distro?
>> 
>> One "killer app" for FOSS systems is ... FOSS... the fact that it is
>> FOSS. No license worries. The ability for people/companies/whomever to
>> freely customize the software if they want or need to.
>> 
>> FOSS running under a FOSS operating system... killer app. And yes, many
>> people use it for that very reason.
> 
> FOSS is not an application.  Nice try though.

It is a concept, and you don't get it, as I said in another post.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:01:32 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:48 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:11:51 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote (in article
> <slrnhblorn.2u4.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):
> 
>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote (in article
>>> <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>> 
>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote (in article
>>>>> <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits
>>>>>>> my be cut into, however
>>>>>>> slightly.
>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get
>>>>>> us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>>>> 
>>>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free
>>>> (like software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free
>>>> beer).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>> point about
>>> about free software.
>> 
>>       You don't even want to go there...
>> 
>>       Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> I'd say that you were giving MS a lot of credit. How about  Microsoft:
> the Old Milwaukee of operating systems? or  Microsoft: the Brown Derby
> of operating systems? Or, if we want to go really bad, perhaps
> Microsoft: the Coors Light of operating systems? Coors Light. Now
> there's a redundancy.

Maybe you should get some Coors from Out West?



-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:03:36 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:25:19 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:18:16 -0700, Hemidactylus* wrote (in article
> <CcydnYq6IOabbifXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@giganews.com>):
> 
>> On 09/23/2009 11:54 PM, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there
>>>> an open
>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and
>>>> sync it to
>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>> 
>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as iTunes
>>> or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>> 
>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match. They prefer
>>> other brands of music players in general.
>>  >
>> Has Apple *as a corporation* released iTunes or Safari for Linux? How
>> can Linuxheads synch iPods if Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about
>> them, but kisses Microsoft's a$$?
>> 
>> I can get Google Chrome for Linux (though still not polished). I can
>> get Opera for Linux. I can get Firefox for Linux. Piece of cake.
>> 
>> Why does Apple release iTunes and Safari for the use of Windows users,
>> but not Linux users? Or has this changed since the last time I checked.
>> 
>> http://www.apple.com/safari/
>> 
>> For Mac + PC
>> 
>> http://www.apple.com/downloads/
>> 
>> Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load Mac
>> OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because
>> Microsoft might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC dorkfest
>> commercials in a new light.
> 
> Sheer numbers, my friend, sheer numbers. I suspect that Apple finds
> Linux simply too small a market to worry about. Add to that the myriad
> of distributions and number of different GUIs in use on that platform,
> and I suspect Apple just figured that it's not worth it..... yet.

.... Myriad of distributions.. yeah that the excuse that is commonly 
trotted out. It should be fairly easy for Apple to put together a binary 
blob iTunes.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:06:55 AM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:

> RonB stated in post h9eudi$ls$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
> 10:00 PM:
> 
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system
>>> falls down is when it comes to the software titles available for
>>> Windows. Every "shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the
>>> pants off of any open source "alternative". Now while many of these
>>> might be OK for home use, most of them require far more work than
>>> their shrink'd counterparts and are far behind the commercial stuff in
>>> terms of features and convenience. If this doesn't bother you, go for
>>> it.
>> 
>> I'll tell my ex-boss that he needs to uninstall Open Office on his
>> Windows work machines -- because, even though we successfully used it
>> to replace Microsoft Office, I've now been told on a newsgroup that it
>> won't work for work. So what other shrink wrapped product were you
>> talking about, specifically?
> 
> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
> 

So, even though it appears OO.o works  in RobB's work environment, you're 
going to tell him it doesn't?

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:09:14 AM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>> 
>> The license.
>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>> needed to install.
>> Generated file sizes.
>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>> Price
>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>> license?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
> Office files, it's not 100%. 

Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with 
each other.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:11:37 AM
Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:25:19 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:18:16 -0700, Hemidactylus* wrote
>> (in article <CcydnYq6IOabbifXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>> 
>>> On 09/23/2009 11:54 PM, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there
>>>>> an open
>>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and
>>>>> sync it to
>>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>>> 
>>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>>> 
>>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>>>  >
>>> Has Apple *as a corporation* released iTunes or Safari for Linux? How
>>> can Linuxheads synch iPods if Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about them,
>>> but kisses Microsoft's a$$?
>>> 
>>> I can get Google Chrome for Linux (though still not polished). I can get
>>> Opera for Linux. I can get Firefox for Linux. Piece of cake.
>>> 
>>> Why does Apple release iTunes and Safari for the use of Windows users,
>>> but not Linux users? Or has this changed since the last time I checked.
>>> 
>>> http://www.apple.com/safari/
>>> 
>>> For Mac + PC
>>> 
>>> http://www.apple.com/downloads/
>>> 
>>> Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load Mac
>>> OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because Microsoft
>>> might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC dorkfest commercials
>>> in a new light.
>> 
>> Sheer numbers, my friend, sheer numbers. I suspect that Apple finds Linux
>> simply too small a market to worry about. Add to that the myriad of
>> distributions and number of different GUIs in use on that platform, and I
>> suspect Apple just figured that it's not worth it..... yet.
> 
> That's preciously the problem.
> I don't see it changing unless the Linux community finally
> decides that 500+ different distributions really isn't a great
> idea.

Actually, the correct number is 301 according to Distrowatch.

Not *500+* like you said...
-- 
The UNIX Guru`s view of Sex:
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; umount; sleep
0
trmanco (354)
9/24/2009 10:35:00 AM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population.

"schoolchildren looking to get math homework help (...) is representative of
the general computer user population."

I would love to hear what logic reasoning supports that statement.

Regards.

0
nomail6807 (1699)
9/24/2009 11:08:44 AM

"Snit" <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote in message 
news:C6E01E1E.49B9C%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com...

> When is Linux not free?

Whenever someone can charge for it.
You don't think that you aren't paying for the linux running on your router 
do you?
You are paying if its a commercial router, they pay to develop their bit of 
code or test the free bit of code and they charge for it when you buy the 
product.
You may be able to download linux free but that doesn't mean someone isn't 
selling it. 

0
dennis45 (490)
9/24/2009 11:50:56 AM

"Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
> statistical inferences.
>
> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
> report.
>
> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>
> Market Share Percentage
>
> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change
> Windows        93.00%     86.37%   Down 7.5%
> Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74%
> Linux           0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>
> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
> of all, by over 3x in one year.
>
> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
> rate should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too
> small to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
>


OMFG Windows lost 7.5% share and linsux gained 1.2% (meaing they gained 12 
new users) and OMFG GAC gained just over 4% (meaning they gained 16 new 
users)

OMFG the sky is falling, the sky is falling

Dickweed, the linsux  and GAC growth rates are stagnant as are Windows. Your 
time would be better spent fingering your dog.

I love the way you twist your numbers. What a dildo



 

0
Scooby8400 (10)
9/24/2009 12:08:24 PM

"d.b. cooper" <db@cooper.net> wrote in message 
news:SLwum.70593$4t6.69691@newsfe06.iad...
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:

>
> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness
> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however
> slightly.
>
Microsoft is worried about what? linsux and Jobs? Give me a break moron. 

0
Scooby8400 (10)
9/24/2009 12:09:20 PM

"Van Chocstraw" <boobooililililil@roadrunner.com> wrote in message 
news:Jt2dnVLzxZrjASfXnZ2dnUVZ_h9i4p2d@giganews.com...

>
> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about 
> MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
> Most Linux distros have come a long way. People who try it now are less 
> put off as they were in the past. There is still much to learn in Linux if 
> you want to make full use of it. With Windows, there is no other way to 
> use it.

Microsoft doesn't have to do anything to shut down linsux. linsux is doing a 
fine lob all by itself. ANd they don't care about the fruit box either. 

0
Scooby8400 (10)
9/24/2009 12:10:29 PM

"dennis@home" <dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote in message 
news:h9e6gg$hil$1@news.datemas.de...
>

>
> The obvious conclusion is that your maths needs fixing. ;-)
>
The boy doesn't have a clue 

0
Scooby8400 (10)
9/24/2009 12:11:10 PM

"Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
news:UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>
>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness
>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however
>> slightly.
>
> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>

Dream on linsucker 

0
Scooby8400 (10)
9/24/2009 12:11:45 PM

"Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> wrote in message 
news:h9e7ba$env$1@news.albasani.net...

> Will curtains be included?
>
>> This will get us
>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>
> Beer is free?    When did that start?   I'm due lots of refunds!
>


That's the new linsux math. The same math as the moron that started this 
thread. 

0
Scooby8400 (10)
9/24/2009 12:13:10 PM

"Fa-groon" <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in message 
news:0001HW.C6DFF5CA0016E4D6F01846D8@news.giganews.com...

>
> What's "maths"? Not to be unkind or anything, but this is the second or 
> third
> time you've used the word like that. FYI, "math", as short for 
> "mathematics",
> is already a plural.
>

Another nitpicking linsucker 

0
Scooby8400 (10)
9/24/2009 12:14:55 PM
Fa-groon wrote:
> jellybean stonerfish wrote:
>> Snit wrote:
>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
>>> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
>>> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>> 
>> The license.
>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui.
>> Space needed to install.
>> Generated file sizes.
>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>> Price
>> Variety of operating systems it will install on.
>> Did I mention the license?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world has
> standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS 
> Office files, it's not 100%. (...)

False, the world has *not* standardized on MS Office and the DOC/XLS/PPT and
OpenXML file formats are loosing to ODF in many places around the world. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odf#Worldwide_adoption

Also, removed the need to support DOC and OpenXML formats and Microsoft
Office looses is one big advantage over OpenOffice (and other office
suites).

Regards.

0
nomail6807 (1699)
9/24/2009 12:51:47 PM
On 2009-09-24, Rick <none@nomail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:55:03 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>> Rick stated in post QbOdnUeN7P4NRyfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
>> 9/23/09 7:33 PM:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
>>>> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>>>>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>>>>>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>>>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>>>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>>>>>> Vista 7.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to
>>>>>> "dupe" people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>>>>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
>>>>> again be bitten?
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is much the same thing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard
>>>> 
>>>> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.
>>> 
>>> Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?
>> 
>> Why reach back into the desktop Linux "pit"? 
>
> It is not a pit. If you think of it as a viper pit, why do you still use 
> it?
>
>> Sure, it has gotten better
>> - much better - but it is still a mishmash of inconsistent and poorly
>> followed UI standards

    If I tool is cool, who cares if it doesn't conform to someone else's
idea of what that tool should be or what tools in general should be?

    If I didn't find iPhoto lame on it's merits, I would be more than
happy to run it in my current enviroment despite the fact that it 
"doesn't fit in". If something really is a killer app, then it's
something worth putting up with an entire alien environment rather
than just a small taste.

>
> Not really. Maybe one day you will understand that people like to be able 
> to choose from KDE, Gnome, XFCE, and other environments.
>
> Maybe one day you will understand that KDE apps run in a KDE environment 
> are, for the most part, consistent, and that Gnome/gtk apps run in a 
> Gnome environment are, for the most part consistent, and that the ability 
> to run an app that is written for one environment in another is a benefit.
>
> And maybe one day you will understand that not all developers adhere to 
> published UI guidelines.
>
> Maybe, but I doubt it.
>
>
>> and it still is not well supported by Adobe or
>> Apple or MS or other major software developers. 
>
> So what? There is much more software support for the Windows platform 
> than there is for the Mac platform.
>
>> Do you expect users to
>> keep testing it year after year hoping it gets better? 
>
> I expect that most of the users do what I do... use it to work and play.
>
>> I hope they
>> do... and I hope (and believe) Linux will get better.
>
> Of course Linux systems will get better. Do you not hope Macs get better? 
> Do you not hope Windows will get better?
>


-- 
	The best OS in the world is ultimately useless         |||
	if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates.      / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 1:07:26 PM
Snit wrote:
> jellybean stonerfish wrote:
>> The license.
> 
> A benefit - it is free to copy - but I was looking for intrinsic things to
> the programs.
>
> (reordered)
>> Price
> 
> Tied to license.  For most there is no real difference.

There is one very good aspect of the OpenOffice license and price. Before
you migrate a business to OpenOffice, you can give a copy of Openoffice
*legally* and at (near) zero cost to all the future users for them to try
at home. This makes migrations much easier because the users can get
comfortable with OpenOffice in a stress free environment and not be worried
about their performance during work or some training classes. Training is
also much more productive when the users already have some previous
experience.

>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
> 
> Opening MS Office files is more important for most... and MS Office does
> this better.

For many, the old and new MS formats are more and more irrelevant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odf#Worldwide_adoption

Regards.

0
nomail6807 (1699)
9/24/2009 1:09:02 PM
On 2009-09-24, *Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 09/23/2009 11:10 PM, Snit wrote:
>> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09 7:05
>> PM:
>>
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point about
>>>> about free software.
>>>
>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is
>>> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
>>> platform you need.
>>
>> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there is no
>> killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop Linux that is
>> not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all sorts of niche
>> software... OS X has the graphic and video industry and is tops for ease of
>> use... but what claim can desktop Linux make - *any* distro?
>>
>>
> Linux has the killer anti-virus app...nothing! Think about it while 
> you're scanning for malware next time in Windoze. Linux with nothing is 
> better than Windows with paid AV software.
>
> Though a pain in the butt, Linux can be upgraded every six months with a 
> fresh install for free, which means newer better stuff without forking 
> over cash. Microsoft charges to go from 98 to NT or ME to XP to Vista to 
> 7. Sure you get patches and service packs for free, but IMO the 6 mo or 
> longer term Ubuntu LTS fresh install is the way to go for a clean slate 
> every time. Or you can upgrade along the way *for free*.
>
> It's Microsoft's position as a huge corporation with lots of market 
> power that makes codecs a non-issue for Microsoft users or I'd compare 
> media platforms. That's a stacked deck. You can play DVD's out of the 
> box with Windows. I wonder why.

....why? It's not because these come with Windows. This is because this
stuff is pre-configured by companies that sell PC hardware with Windows
preloaded.

When you are coming from a fresh OEM install, Linux actually compares
very favorably. Strangely enough, if you find yourself wanting to play
more files than MacOS handles natively you will find yourself installing
Linux codec libraries. So the notion that Linux has no killer apps is not
entirely true.

It's just that Linux "killer apps" tend to get ported.

-- 
	The best OS in the world is ultimately useless         |||
	if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates.      / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 1:12:31 PM
Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:06:44 GMT, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>
>> In article <0001HW.C6E0398D0026C6E0F01846D8@news.giganews.com>, fa-groon wrote:
>>>On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:05:30 -0700, RonB wrote
>>>(in article <h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point 
>>>>> about 
>>>>> about free software. 
>>>> 
>>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to 
>>>> Windows -- 
>> 
>>>Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system falls 
>>>down is when it comes to the software titles available for Windows. Every 
>>>"shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the pants off of any open 
>>>source "alternative". Now while many of these might be OK for home use, most 
>>>of them require far more work than their shrink'd counterparts and are far 
>>>behind the commercial stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this 
>>>doesn't bother you, go for it. 
>>>
>>>>  and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly 
>>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is 
>>>> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the 
>>>> platform you need.
>>>
>>>Yes. 
>>>
>>>I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open 
>>>sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to 
>>>an iPod on a Linux box?
>> 
>> I've never had a problem ripping music (there are at least 3 well 
>> known choices of app for this in kde alone IIRC  :) ). I don't own (or want) 
>> an ipod, so have no opinion on how easy/hard that is ... but IME, most 
>> hardware is transparent in linux. Plug it in and it works. No silly s/w 
>> needed. :)
>
> Ripping music is trivial.
> Getting an iPod to FULLY FUNCTION, including playlists, is not.
>
> http://www.gtkpod.org/README
>
> iPod, iTunes, Mac, Macintosh, iBook are trademarks of Apple
> Computer,
> Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.
>
> Donations are welcome: please go to
> https://sourceforge.net/project/project_donations.php?group_id=67873
> for details.
>
> *----------------------------------*
> |                                  |
> |            Contents              |
> |                                  |
> *----------------------------------*
>
>   - Using gtkpod
>   - Features
>      - Tracks
>      - Filter Tabs
>      - Playlists
>      - Drag and Drop
>      - Duplicate Detection
>      - Preferences File
>      - Startup and Shutdown scripts
>      - Extended Information File
>      - Refresh (Update) Track Info From File
>      - Synchronize Directories
>      - Volume Normalization
>      - Podcasts
>      - Offline Mode
>      - Export of Tracks (Copy from iPod)
>      - Encoding of ID3 tags (charsets)
>      - Extracting tag information from the filename
>      - Checking iPod's files
>      - Restoring your iPod after file system error
>      - Playcounts & Rating
>      - About filenames
>   - Icons for window managers
>   - Connecting iPod to a Linux box:
>   - Sick of loading the sbp2 modules by hand? (an example of how
> to
>     use startup/shutdown scripts)
>
> *----------------------------------*
> |                                  |
> |          Using gtkpod            |
> |                                  |
> *----------------------------------*
>
> Follow steps 1-7 in the "Connecting your iPod to a Linux box"
> (basically you need to get the iPod partition mounted to
> /mnt/ipod)
>
> 1) The faint-of-heart make a backup of their iTunesDB:
>
> cp /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB
> /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB.bak
>

Already the average iPod listener is lost.

What's the "basically" and where are the instructions for how to do it?
/mnt?? Never heard of it.

0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 1:15:19 PM
Lusotec wrote:

> False, the world has *not* standardized on MS Office

You're ignorant and/or uninformed if you believe that.



> and the
> DOC/XLS/PPT and OpenXML file formats are loosing to ODF in many
> places around the world.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odf#Worldwide_adoption

heh!   You don't really think all users in all those countries use .odf 
files, do you?  You probably do.




> Also, removed the need to support DOC and OpenXML formats and
> Microsoft Office looses is one big advantage over OpenOffice (and
> other office suites).

The other big advantages it has over those jokes are speed, features, 
functions, documentation, add-ons, interoperability with other MS Office 
apps, etc.  Then there's the worldwide installed base of many hundreds of 
millions.

OO itself is a lost cause.

A few people in a few governments will use MSOffice to save files in .odf 
format, but there will never be a widespread adoption of .odf by users and 
businesses.







0
nospam11 (18349)
9/24/2009 1:25:23 PM
On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>> open 
>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it 
>>> to 
>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>> 
>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>> 
>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>
> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones. 

    No. The ones with larger screens and more storage capacity and better 
support for higher bitrates, higher resolutions and different codecs.

    I have to DEGRADE my stuff in order for an ipod to accept it.

-- 
	The best OS in the world is ultimately useless         |||
	if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates.      / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 1:26:28 PM
On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:27:57 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
> (in article <h9f3hb$pni$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>>> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>>>> open 
>>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync 
>>>>> it 
>>>>> to 
>>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>>> 
>>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>>> 
>>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>>> 
>>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
>> 
>> Hahaha!
>> 
>> Yea, I suppose...
>> 
>> Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different
>> players and the iPod sets the standard. It really does.
>
> There are two classes of music player buyers who don't buy iPods: The 
> incredibly cheap and the Apple haters who would rather cut their noses off to 

....because it just isn't possible that there is some actual reason that
someone might choose something other than the "one true brand".

The Lemming mentality in action.

[deletia]

People who use other products are simply willing to consider other products.

-- 
	The best OS in the world is ultimately useless         |||
	if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates.      / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 1:28:02 PM
On 2009-09-24, Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:05:39 -0500, RonB wrote:
>
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> Yeah, you get what you pay for. 
>> 
>> Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap 
>> Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell 
>> it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what 
>> they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.
>
> Typical freetard.

    You are confused.

    Not being into mindless conspicous consuption doens't make one a
freetard. You are attempting to conflate "discriminating consumer" 
with freetard. This is of course highly absurd since the "discriminating
consumer" often might pay a higher initial cost for the given doo-dad.

>  
>> As for my Centro, it does what I need it to do -- of course I'm not that 
>> interested bragging about how much I spent for a portable MP3 player. 
>> I've got a life.
>
> Good for you....
> That doesn't change the fact that the iPod is the top of the
> line.

....anything Apple is much like the BMW they like to compare themselves
to so much: yes it may actually represent a certain level of quailty
but all of that is pretty much entirely obscured by all of the mindless
HYPE surrounding the product.

> If you want to drive a Yugo, so be it...
> People who know better, and can afford it, drive the best and
> the best is the iPod.

....more of the conspicous consumer mentality.

My mp3 player isn't some sad attempt to make my friends and neighbors jealous.

-- 
	The best OS in the world is ultimately useless         |||
	if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates.      / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 1:31:51 PM
"Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
> statistical inferences.
>
> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
> report.
>
> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>
> Market Share Percentage

Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.


0
not-there (264)
9/24/2009 1:43:31 PM
"Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:h9frd9$as7$4@news.eternal-september.org...
> Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> writes:


>>   - Sick of loading the sbp2 modules by hand? (an example of how
>> to
>>     use startup/shutdown scripts)
>>
>> *----------------------------------*
>> |                                  |
>> |          Using gtkpod            |
>> |                                  |
>> *----------------------------------*
>>
>> Follow steps 1-7 in the "Connecting your iPod to a Linux box"
>> (basically you need to get the iPod partition mounted to
>> /mnt/ipod)
>>
>> 1) The faint-of-heart make a backup of their iTunesDB:
>>
>> cp /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB
>> /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB.bak
>>
>
> Already the average iPod listener is lost.
>
> What's the "basically" and where are the instructions for how to do it?
> /mnt?? Never heard of it.

Yeah... this is really going to work with the general public.

    cp /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB
    /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB.bak

Apple sold more than 220 million iPods - the best selling music player in 
history. And 99% of those people do *NOT* want to issue these command-line 
commands in order to do something as simple as backup their music database.


0
not-there (264)
9/24/2009 1:46:02 PM
On 09/23/2009 11:22 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:

>> And if you can afford a $600 Mac, you can afford a top quality bombshell
>> PC: triple core processor, 4 GB DDR3 RAM, 600 GB HD, as much RAM on the
>
>      Triple core? Isn't that like a Quad Core that wasn't good enough to cut
> the mustard? Why triffle with a manufacturing reject?

Typical MacMoron Know-nothing reasoning. When manufacturing chips, it 
often happns that a Core is not perfect. If it's a core out of four, why 
throw the whole thing away?

Besides, my CPU is a 720 BE (Black Edition), which means it's fully 
overclockable. IOW, the 3 cores are perfect. But a standard 720 would 
have been perfect in my case.

 > If you are going to
> play the specs game, at least bother to do so with a faster dual core.

A faster dual core would have costed much more and I didn't need it. All 
I wanted was a board/CPU that would use DDR3 at a very decent price.

Go to Tom's hardware and compare to the lamie you get on a Mac Mini for 
the same price.

>> Take a look at NewEgg's prices...
>
>      I see a lot of brands I've never heard of before

Have you ever heard of anything hardware-wise?

> and a lot of boxes
> that still use shared memory for the video chipset.

You don't buy boxes, you buy the parts. If you don't want to built it 
yourself, a 2 hour job for your first computer, you may buy the same 
stuff from a nearby store. It will cost you approximately $75 more.

I had my latest built and it cost $680 (CAN).
0
myram2315 (2)
9/24/2009 1:53:50 PM
Fa-groon wrote:
> There are two classes of music player buyers who don't buy iPods: The
> incredibly cheap and the Apple haters who would rather cut their noses off
> to spite their own faces than buy an Apple product. Their loss, I'm
> afraid.

A third class: those that mostly use their portable music player while
running and don't want to killand need functions like heart rate, speed,
and distance run  recorder. It must be small, light weight, water and
impact resistant. Does the ipod provide those features?

GPS would be a good addition to the feature list but have not found one with
it and the rest yet.

Regards.

0
nomail6807 (1699)
9/24/2009 1:55:23 PM
On 09/23/2009 09:45 PM, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> On 2009-09-24, Myram<myram@ldkfjlsdkfjsf.com>  wrote:
>> On 09/23/2009 05:46 PM, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>
>>> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
>>> rate should be even better.
>>
>> Bugs? Which bugs? Do you run alpha versions or what? I don't think that
>> Linux final releases have more bugs that OS X or Windows.
>
> They have too many bugs, as far as I am concerned. I do not run other
> OSes so I cannot compare.

So, you run only Linux? I suppose it must not be that bad. If you could 
compare, maybe you'd find it's doing pretty good after all :)
0
myram2315 (2)
9/24/2009 1:57:22 PM
"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message 
news:slrnhbms1v.pnh.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2009-09-24, *Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> It's Microsoft's position as a huge corporation with lots of market
>> power that makes codecs a non-issue for Microsoft users or I'd compare
>> media platforms. That's a stacked deck. You can play DVD's out of the
>> box with Windows. I wonder why.
>
> ...why? It's not because these come with Windows. This is because this
> stuff is pre-configured by companies that sell PC hardware with Windows
> preloaded.
>

So in your world if a distro packager adds a DVD codec then it's one thing. 
But if an OEM adds a DVD codec to a Windows install then that's completely 
different?  Or is DVD playback now considered part of the Linux kernel?





0
not-there (264)
9/24/2009 2:16:18 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:27:57 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote (in article
>> <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there
>>>> an open
>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and
>>>> sync it to
>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>> 
>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as iTunes
>>> or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>> 
>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match. They prefer
>>> other brands of music players in general.
>> 
>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
> 
> Hahaha!
> 
> Yea, I suppose...
> 
> Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different players and
> the iPod sets the standard. It really does.
> 
> If all you are going to do is dump some music to a player and shuffle
> the songs, I would say to save your money and buy something like Sansa
> etc.
> 
> However, if you are an enthusiast and want to interface the player with
> your car *fully*, not just via an Aux jack, or you are looking for
> accessories, it's all iPod, and oddly Zune.

Or, instead of having a fucking iPod dangling from your radio (which is 
just begging to have your car broken into and be stolen), you can just go 
out and buy a radio with an USB port. Then all you need is a USB memory 
stick which costs a whole lot less than what an iPod costs, copy your 
music on it, and plug it in your radio!

Works *wonderfully* and I don't need frigging iTunes or an overpriced 
iPod.

-- 
Stephan
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
君の事忘れたときがないから
0
nomail7779 (31)
9/24/2009 2:16:51 PM
d.b. cooper wrote:

>Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>slightly.

BB should sell Windwoes right next to that other overpriced rip-off,
Monster Cable.

-- 
"Ubuntu <> Debian although they do indeed steal all the hard work and
put little if anything back."  -  "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
0
chrisv (22840)
9/24/2009 2:23:47 PM
ScoobyDoobyDo wrote:

>Microsoft is worried about

*plonk*

0
chrisv (22840)
9/24/2009 2:24:58 PM
"Stephan Rose" <nomail@nomail.invalid> wrote in message 
news:-badnXGQ05vO4ibXnZ2dnUVZ_ixi4p2d@giganews.com...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:27:57 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote (in article
>>> <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there
>>>>> an open
>>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and
>>>>> sync it to
>>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>>>
>>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as iTunes
>>>> or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>>>
>>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match. They prefer
>>>> other brands of music players in general.
>>>
>>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
>>
>> Hahaha!
>>
>> Yea, I suppose...
>>
>> Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different players and
>> the iPod sets the standard. It really does.
>>
>> If all you are going to do is dump some music to a player and shuffle
>> the songs, I would say to save your money and buy something like Sansa
>> etc.
>>
>> However, if you are an enthusiast and want to interface the player with
>> your car *fully*, not just via an Aux jack, or you are looking for
>> accessories, it's all iPod, and oddly Zune.
>
> Or, instead of having a fucking iPod dangling from your radio

It doesn't dangle from the radio. There's actually a connector for it inside 
the arm-rest compartment.


> (which is
> just begging to have your car broken into and be stolen),

Lots of people breaking into your 86 Pontiac Fiero are they?


> you can just go
> out and buy a radio with an USB port.

So the solution is to buy a new radio. My current radio (with the integrated 
iPod support) let's me change the input source, songs, fast-forward, rewind, 
etc. using the controls right on the steering wheel. Will this radio that I 
replace it with do this for me.


> Then all you need is a USB memory
> stick which costs a whole lot less than what an iPod costs,

So how much does this new car stereo cost since you suggest that people 
replace their existing one?



> copy your
> music on it, and plug it in your radio!
>
> Works *wonderfully* and I don't need frigging iTunes
> or an overpriced  iPod.

Right... you saved $100 bucks on an iPod because you bought a $200 car 
stereo. The problem is that the car stereo no longer works with the 
integrated controls on the steering wheel and you can't take your car stereo 
around with you like an iPod to the gym, out running and etc.

Here we have the typical freetard that would rather cut of his nose in order 
to spite his face. Willing to put up with an inferior and more expensive 
"solution" in order to avoid buying an iPod.


> Stephan
> 1986 Pontiac Fiero GT




0
not-zeke (902)
9/24/2009 2:29:27 PM
On 2009-09-24, Ezekiel <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>
> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>> statistical inferences.
>>
>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>> report.
>>
>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>
>> Market Share Percentage
>
> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.

What I measured, more precisely, was "browser share".

i
0
Ignoramus2699
9/24/2009 2:45:39 PM
JEDIDIAH <j...@nomad.mishnet> wrote:
> Fa-groon <fa-gr...@mad.com> wrote:
> > Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> >>
> >> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
> >> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>
> > Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
>
> No. The ones with larger screens and more storage capacity and better
> support for higher bitrates, higher resolutions and different codecs.

It would be quite understandable that individuals who are particular
enough about their OS to work with the DIY aspects of Linux would
similarly be particular about the hardware technicalities of other
devices.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't any
self-imposed Placebo Effect and/or Confirmation Bias that influences
their preferences (almost said 'biases').

> =A0 =A0 I have to DEGRADE my stuff in order for an ipod to accept it.

YMMV.  For example, anyone now over age 30 and who hasn't faithfully
used hearing protection for the past 15 years when mowing their lawn
(or power tools) has already incurred suffiicent magnitude of
permanent hearing loss that the "technically measuable" performance
differences are now no longer physiologically perceptable.   As such,
any _claimed_ "I can hear the difference" is the result of
confirmation bias & placebo effect, since such DIY tests are almost
never run as a true blind-blind comparison.

In general, most people haven't done a particularly stellar job of
consistently  protecting their hearing from harm/degradation, and
their hearing performance today simply isn't as good as it had been,
10-15-20-(more) years ago.  As such, as one generally gets older,
these arguments become moot, since when one can't physiologically
perceive any difference, there's no reason to pay for higher-end
hardware, or take extra steps for lossless software encoding, etc.


-hh

0
9/24/2009 2:51:15 PM
"Ignoramus2699" <ignoramus2699@NOSPAM.2699.invalid> wrote in message 
news:o7idneIusvCOGybXnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> On 2009-09-24, Ezekiel <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>> statistical inferences.
>>>
>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>> report.
>>>
>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>
>>> Market Share Percentage
>>
>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.
>
> What I measured, more precisely, was "browser share".

So are you saying is that these number mean nothing at all and that they are 
completely irrelevant?

Because there are many much larger sites and companies that aggregate 
"browser share" from thousands of web-sites and they show Linux at or below 
1%. These "browser share" figures are either relevant or they are not... 
which is it?






0
not-zeke (902)
9/24/2009 2:54:18 PM
"Ezekiel" <not-there@the-zeke.com> writes:

> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message 
> news:slrnhbms1v.pnh.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2009-09-24, *Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's Microsoft's position as a huge corporation with lots of market
>>> power that makes codecs a non-issue for Microsoft users or I'd compare
>>> media platforms. That's a stacked deck. You can play DVD's out of the
>>> box with Windows. I wonder why.
>>
>> ...why? It's not because these come with Windows. This is because this
>> stuff is pre-configured by companies that sell PC hardware with Windows
>> preloaded.
>>
>
> So in your world if a distro packager adds a DVD codec then it's one thing. 
> But if an OEM adds a DVD codec to a Windows install then that's completely 
> different?  Or is DVD playback now considered part of the Linux kernel?

Where's Th(R)ick when we need him?
0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 2:59:03 PM

-- 

"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
"Ezekiel" <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
news:h9ft25$vb8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>> statistical inferences.
>>
>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>> report.
>>
>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>
>> Market Share Percentage
>
> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.

Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free. 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 3:12:34 PM
Rotten Apple wrote:

>Market share is sales.  

Wrong.

0
chrisv (22840)
9/24/2009 3:14:18 PM
"Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:

> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free. 

Nonsense. Market Share is the "share of the available market". And not
all Linux is "free". It's 100$ if Porter installs it for example.

It would take a particularly dense person not to understand it means in
the real world in the context of desktop OSen.

0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 3:16:29 PM
"Fa-groon" <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in message 
news:0001HW.C6E0398D0026C6E0F01846D8@news.giganews.com...
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:05:30 -0700, RonB wrote
> (in article <h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org>):
>
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>
>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point
>>> about
>>> about free software.
>>
>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>> Windows -- 
>
>
> Well, yes, I guess I can give you that.

He'll go along with anything that says it's against Windows!

> BUT where your belief system falls
> down is when it comes to the software titles available for Windows. Every
> "shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the pants off of any 
> open
> source "alternative". Now while many of these might be OK for home use, 
> most
> of them require far more work than their shrink'd counterparts and are far
> behind the commercial stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this
> doesn't bother you, go for it.

See how Linux becomes not-so-good when it's Linux against Mac?

>>  and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is
>> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
>> platform you need.
>
> Yes.

He means "yes, you need a Mac."

> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
> open
> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it 
> to
> an iPod on a Linux box?

It starts already...

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 3:23:44 PM
"Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g293$4ch$1@news.albasani.net...
>
>
> -- 
>
> "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
> I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
> "Ezekiel" <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
> news:h9ft25$vb8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>> statistical inferences.
>>>
>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>> report.
>>>
>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>
>>> Market Share Percentage
>>
>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.
>

> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.

Fine... so Linux has a sale price of $0.00.  So what share/percentage of the 
market is buying into Linux for $0 versus the percentage of the market 
that's using other OS's or products?

Feel free to explain how Firefox (also free/$0) can have a marketshare and 
why CBS nighlty news (also free/$0) is losing marketshare to it's 
competitors.





0
not-zeke (902)
9/24/2009 3:27:39 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:35 +0100, Tony Manco wrote:

> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:25:19 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:18:16 -0700, Hemidactylus* wrote
>>> (in article <CcydnYq6IOabbifXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>> 
>>>> On 09/23/2009 11:54 PM, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there
>>>>>> an open
>>>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and
>>>>>> sync it to
>>>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>>>> 
>>>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>>>>  >
>>>> Has Apple *as a corporation* released iTunes or Safari for Linux? How
>>>> can Linuxheads synch iPods if Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about them,
>>>> but kisses Microsoft's a$$?
>>>> 
>>>> I can get Google Chrome for Linux (though still not polished). I can get
>>>> Opera for Linux. I can get Firefox for Linux. Piece of cake.
>>>> 
>>>> Why does Apple release iTunes and Safari for the use of Windows users,
>>>> but not Linux users? Or has this changed since the last time I checked.
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.apple.com/safari/
>>>> 
>>>> For Mac + PC
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.apple.com/downloads/
>>>> 
>>>> Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load Mac
>>>> OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because Microsoft
>>>> might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC dorkfest commercials
>>>> in a new light.
>>> 
>>> Sheer numbers, my friend, sheer numbers. I suspect that Apple finds Linux
>>> simply too small a market to worry about. Add to that the myriad of
>>> distributions and number of different GUIs in use on that platform, and I
>>> suspect Apple just figured that it's not worth it..... yet.
>> 
>> That's preciously the problem.
>> I don't see it changing unless the Linux community finally
>> decides that 500+ different distributions really isn't a great
>> idea.
> 
> Actually, the correct number is 301 according to Distrowatch.
> 
> Not *500+* like you said...

Looks like a few basement dwellers have abandoned their pet
projects since I last checked, however...


500, 300, 2000, it doesn't matter..

Linux is fragmented and that is what, in part, is holding it
back from the mainstream.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 3:28:25 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:43:31 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:

> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>> statistical inferences.
>>
>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>> report.
>>
>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>
>> Market Share Percentage
> 
> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.

Except when the numbers look favorable to Linux, then it *can*
be measured.

It's just like "Linux is the kernel" vs "Linux is not just the
kernel".

It depends upon which statement is better for Linux in a
particular discussion.

Linux users have at least 500+ excuses for why Linux sucks.

They call them distributions.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 3:30:24 PM

-- 

"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
"Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g2gf$v79$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:
>
>> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.
>
> Nonsense.

Untrue.

> Market Share is the "share of the available market".

Did you figure that out for yourself, or is that Einstein's theory?

Market means sales, not giving away products.   Market share is not user 
base.

> And not
> all Linux is "free". It's 100$ if Porter installs it for example.

The majority of Linux is given away for free.

> It would take a particularly dense person not to understand it means in
> the real world in the context of desktop OSen.

You're being hard on yourself. 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 3:33:56 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:16:29 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:
> 
>> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free. 
> 
> Nonsense. Market Share is the "share of the available market". And not
> all Linux is "free". It's 100$ if Porter installs it for example.

Shudder....

And then the poor sap will have to pay someone to repair the
mess that Terry Porter created.


0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 3:35:11 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:15:19 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:06:44 GMT, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>
>>> In article <0001HW.C6E0398D0026C6E0F01846D8@news.giganews.com>, fa-groon wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:05:30 -0700, RonB wrote
>>>>(in article <h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point 
>>>>>> about 
>>>>>> about free software. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to 
>>>>> Windows -- 
>>> 
>>>>Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system falls 
>>>>down is when it comes to the software titles available for Windows. Every 
>>>>"shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the pants off of any open 
>>>>source "alternative". Now while many of these might be OK for home use, most 
>>>>of them require far more work than their shrink'd counterparts and are far 
>>>>behind the commercial stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this 
>>>>doesn't bother you, go for it. 
>>>>
>>>>>  and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly 
>>>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there is 
>>>>> specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the 
>>>>> platform you need.
>>>>
>>>>Yes. 
>>>>
>>>>I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an open 
>>>>sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync it to 
>>>>an iPod on a Linux box?
>>> 
>>> I've never had a problem ripping music (there are at least 3 well 
>>> known choices of app for this in kde alone IIRC  :) ). I don't own (or want) 
>>> an ipod, so have no opinion on how easy/hard that is ... but IME, most 
>>> hardware is transparent in linux. Plug it in and it works. No silly s/w 
>>> needed. :)
>>
>> Ripping music is trivial.
>> Getting an iPod to FULLY FUNCTION, including playlists, is not.
>>
>> http://www.gtkpod.org/README
>>
>> iPod, iTunes, Mac, Macintosh, iBook are trademarks of Apple
>> Computer,
>> Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.
>>
>> Donations are welcome: please go to
>> https://sourceforge.net/project/project_donations.php?group_id=67873
>> for details.
>>
>> *----------------------------------*
>>|                                  |
>>|            Contents              |
>>|                                  |
>> *----------------------------------*
>>
>>   - Using gtkpod
>>   - Features
>>      - Tracks
>>      - Filter Tabs
>>      - Playlists
>>      - Drag and Drop
>>      - Duplicate Detection
>>      - Preferences File
>>      - Startup and Shutdown scripts
>>      - Extended Information File
>>      - Refresh (Update) Track Info From File
>>      - Synchronize Directories
>>      - Volume Normalization
>>      - Podcasts
>>      - Offline Mode
>>      - Export of Tracks (Copy from iPod)
>>      - Encoding of ID3 tags (charsets)
>>      - Extracting tag information from the filename
>>      - Checking iPod's files
>>      - Restoring your iPod after file system error
>>      - Playcounts & Rating
>>      - About filenames
>>   - Icons for window managers
>>   - Connecting iPod to a Linux box:
>>   - Sick of loading the sbp2 modules by hand? (an example of how
>> to
>>     use startup/shutdown scripts)
>>
>> *----------------------------------*
>>|                                  |
>>|          Using gtkpod            |
>>|                                  |
>> *----------------------------------*
>>
>> Follow steps 1-7 in the "Connecting your iPod to a Linux box"
>> (basically you need to get the iPod partition mounted to
>> /mnt/ipod)
>>
>> 1) The faint-of-heart make a backup of their iTunesDB:
>>
>> cp /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB
>> /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB.bak
>>
> 
> Already the average iPod listener is lost.
> 
> What's the "basically" and where are the instructions for how to do it?
> /mnt?? Never heard of it.

Exactly.....

All I did with my Windows box and iPod was plug it in and insert
the CD.
It updated the iTunes program, updated the firmware on the iPod
and set up my library.

Easy as candy.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 3:37:25 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:46:02 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:

> "Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:h9frd9$as7$4@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>>   - Sick of loading the sbp2 modules by hand? (an example of how
>>> to
>>>     use startup/shutdown scripts)
>>>
>>> *----------------------------------*
>>> |                                  |
>>> |          Using gtkpod            |
>>> |                                  |
>>> *----------------------------------*
>>>
>>> Follow steps 1-7 in the "Connecting your iPod to a Linux box"
>>> (basically you need to get the iPod partition mounted to
>>> /mnt/ipod)
>>>
>>> 1) The faint-of-heart make a backup of their iTunesDB:
>>>
>>> cp /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB
>>> /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB.bak
>>>
>>
>> Already the average iPod listener is lost.
>>
>> What's the "basically" and where are the instructions for how to do it?
>> /mnt?? Never heard of it.
> 
> Yeah... this is really going to work with the general public.
> 
>     cp /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB
>     /mnt/ipod/iPod_Control/iTunes/iTunesDB.bak
> 
> Apple sold more than 220 million iPods - the best selling music player in 
> history. And 99% of those people do *NOT* want to issue these command-line 
> commands in order to do something as simple as backup their music database.

This is a classic reason why Linux is shunned amongst average
users.

And you will go through the same crap with a GPS, cell phone,
PDA etc...
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 3:39:31 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:29:27 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:

> "Stephan Rose" <nomail@nomail.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:-badnXGQ05vO4ibXnZ2dnUVZ_ixi4p2d@giganews.com...
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:27:57 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote (in article
>>>> <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there
>>>>>> an open
>>>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and
>>>>>> sync it to
>>>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>>>>
>>>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as iTunes
>>>>> or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match. They prefer
>>>>> other brands of music players in general.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
>>>
>>> Hahaha!
>>>
>>> Yea, I suppose...
>>>
>>> Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different players and
>>> the iPod sets the standard. It really does.
>>>
>>> If all you are going to do is dump some music to a player and shuffle
>>> the songs, I would say to save your money and buy something like Sansa
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> However, if you are an enthusiast and want to interface the player with
>>> your car *fully*, not just via an Aux jack, or you are looking for
>>> accessories, it's all iPod, and oddly Zune.
>>
>> Or, instead of having a fucking iPod dangling from your radio
> 
> It doesn't dangle from the radio. There's actually a connector for it inside 
> the arm-rest compartment.
> 
> 
>> (which is
>> just begging to have your car broken into and be stolen),
> 
> Lots of people breaking into your 86 Pontiac Fiero are they?

They sure named that car appropriately :)
It has a Chevette front end BTW.
That's Chevette, *not* Corvette.

 
> 
>> you can just go
>> out and buy a radio with an USB port.
> 
> So the solution is to buy a new radio. My current radio (with the integrated 
> iPod support) let's me change the input source, songs, fast-forward, rewind, 
> etc. using the controls right on the steering wheel. Will this radio that I 
> replace it with do this for me.

Bingo...

> 
>> Then all you need is a USB memory
>> stick which costs a whole lot less than what an iPod costs,
> 
> So how much does this new car stereo cost since you suggest that people 
> replace their existing one?

He misses the point.
Totally.

 
> 
> 
>> copy your
>> music on it, and plug it in your radio!
>>
>> Works *wonderfully* and I don't need frigging iTunes
>> or an overpriced  iPod.
> 
> Right... you saved $100 bucks on an iPod because you bought a $200 car 
> stereo. The problem is that the car stereo no longer works with the 
> integrated controls on the steering wheel and you can't take your car stereo 
> around with you like an iPod to the gym, out running and etc.

Exactly.


> Here we have the typical freetard that would rather cut of his nose in order 
> to spite his face. Willing to put up with an inferior and more expensive 
> "solution" in order to avoid buying an iPod.

That's what it appears.

 
> 
>> Stephan
>> 1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

Put a Corvette LT motor into it and you might have something.
With the 2.8L it can't get out of it's own way and the Chevette
front end kills it in the twisties.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 3:43:43 PM
"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message 
news:463nb5do54vr5k84hrofccat6a78l4uih1@4ax.com...
> Rotten Apple wrote:
>
>>Market share is sales.
>
> Wrong.

Really?    Markets don't sell things?

What do you think market share is?

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger



0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 3:45:01 PM


,----
| "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
| I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
| "Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
| news:h9g2gf$v79$2@news.eternal-september.org...
| >
| > "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:
| >
| >> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.
| >
| > Nonsense.
| 
| Untrue.

Very true I an afraid my pointy headed little chum.

| 
| > Market Share is the "share of the available market".
| 
| Did you figure that out for yourself, or is that Einstein's theory?

Its pretty obvious ...

| 
| Market means sales, not giving away products.   Market share is not user 
| base.

Try and work this out:

The "Market" to sell to is 100 people.

MS sell Windows to 99 of them. They gained 99% of the market. The other
1% does not disappear. Complicated I know. Try to work it out though.

| 
| > And not
| > all Linux is "free". It's 100$ if Porter installs it for example.
| 
| The majority of Linux is given away for free.

Whatever. No one really cares one way or another. It being free makes no
difference in the context of two supposedly sentient beings talking
about how prolific Linux is on the desktop. Market Share is as good a
way of describing it as anything.

| 
| > It would take a particularly dense person not to understand it means in
| > the real world in the context of desktop OSen.
| 
| You're being hard on yourself. 
`----

Why are you posting behind a signature delimiter? Too dense to set up
your news reader?
0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 3:47:52 PM
On 2009-09-24, Ezekiel <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>
> "Ignoramus2699" <ignoramus2699@NOSPAM.2699.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:o7idneIusvCOGybXnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> On 2009-09-24, Ezekiel <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>>> statistical inferences.
>>>>
>>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>>> report.
>>>>
>>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>>
>>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>
>>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.
>>
>> What I measured, more precisely, was "browser share".
>
> So are you saying is that these number mean nothing at all and that they are 
> completely irrelevant?

The numbers are very useful to me and they are very relevant to my own
interests and commercial activity (running algebra.com).

They measure how much browsing comes to me from Linux. 

I also believe that they are representative of how many Linux
computers are used by the population that visits my site.

They do not measure the "share of installed base" of general Linux
computers, such as server farms, but they do measure a very important
parameter. 

> Because there are many much larger sites and companies that aggregate 
> "browser share" from thousands of web-sites and they show Linux at or below 
> 1%. These "browser share" figures are either relevant or they are not... 
> which is it?

I think that they are relevant. Other websites may show a different
percentage than my site. 

According to stats at w3counter.com, as of August 2009, the Linux
"browser share" was measured at 1.97%, which is above 1%, contrary to
what you said. It is also close to my own number of 1.82%.

     http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

i
0
Ignoramus2699
9/24/2009 3:48:43 PM

-- 

"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
"Ezekiel" <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g35i$gq4$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> wrote in message 
> news:h9g293$4ch$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
>> I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
>> "Ezekiel" <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
>> news:h9ft25$vb8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
>>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the 
>>>> general
>>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>>> statistical inferences.
>>>>
>>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>>> report.
>>>>
>>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>>
>>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>
>>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.
>>
>
>> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.
>
> Fine... so Linux has a sale price of $0.00.  So what share/percentage of 
> the market is buying into Linux for $0 versus the percentage of the market 
> that's using other OS's or products?

Linux isn't sold into a market, hence market share numbers for it have no 
meaning.

> Feel free to explain how Firefox (also free/$0) can have a marketshare and 
> why CBS nighlty news (also free/$0) is losing marketshare to it's 
> competitors.

Firefox has a user base, not a market share.   Neither IE nor Firefox are 
sold, hence neither have any market share.  Only user base. 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 3:57:03 PM
"Moshe Goldfarb" <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g3ad$i96$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:43:31 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:
>
>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>> statistical inferences.
>>>
>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>> report.
>>>
>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>
>>> Market Share Percentage
>>
>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.
>
> Except when the numbers look favorable to Linux, then it *can*
> be measured.
>
> It's just like "Linux is the kernel" vs "Linux is not just the
> kernel".
>
> It depends upon which statement is better for Linux in a
> particular discussion.
>
> Linux users have at least 500+ excuses for why Linux sucks.
>
> They call them distributions.

So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door and 
make you install a free copy of Linux?

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:01:32 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:

Your newsreader is borked.  Your message body was blank and you had at 
least 50 lines in your signature block.  
0
stonerfish (296)
9/24/2009 4:02:32 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:


> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door and 
> make you install a free copy of Linux?

I'd rather have him crap on my floor.
It's easier to clean up than a Linux install gone amok.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 4:06:02 PM
"Ezekiel" <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g35i$gq4$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> wrote in message 
> news:h9g293$4ch$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
>> I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
>> "Ezekiel" <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
>> news:h9ft25$vb8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
>>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the 
>>>> general
>>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>>> statistical inferences.
>>>>
>>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>>> report.
>>>>
>>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>>
>>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>
>>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be measured.
>>
>
>> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.
>
> Fine... so Linux has a sale price of $0.00.  So what share/percentage of 
> the market is buying into Linux for $0 versus the percentage of the market 
> that's using other OS's or products?

Linux isn't sold into a market, hence market share numbers for it have no
meaning.

> Feel free to explain how Firefox (also free/$0) can have a marketshare and 
> why CBS nighlty news (also free/$0) is losing marketshare to it's 
> competitors.

Firefox has a user base, not a market share.   Neither IE nor Firefox are
sold, hence neither have any market share.  Only user base.

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:09:49 PM
"jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message 
news:sKMum.217090$0e4.151481@newsfe19.iad...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>
> Your newsreader is borked.  Your message body was blank and you had at
> least 50 lines in your signature block.

Thanks.

OE puts the sig at the top of the message for some reason, if you have it 
inserted automatically.   Your newsreader must automatically trim sigs. 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:11:34 PM
Rick stated in post QbOdnXmN7P5E2CbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 3:11 AM:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>> 
>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>> 
>>> The license.
>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>> needed to install.
>>> Generated file sizes.
>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>> Price
>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>> license?
>> 
>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
>> Office files, it's not 100%.
> 
> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
> each other.

Modern versions are pretty close to that.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 4:13:52 PM
Rick stated in post QbOdnX6N7P7X2CbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 3:09 AM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> RonB stated in post h9eudi$ls$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
>> 10:00 PM:
>> 
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system
>>>> falls down is when it comes to the software titles available for
>>>> Windows. Every "shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats the
>>>> pants off of any open source "alternative". Now while many of these
>>>> might be OK for home use, most of them require far more work than
>>>> their shrink'd counterparts and are far behind the commercial stuff in
>>>> terms of features and convenience. If this doesn't bother you, go for
>>>> it.
>>> 
>>> I'll tell my ex-boss that he needs to uninstall Open Office on his
>>> Windows work machines -- because, even though we successfully used it
>>> to replace Microsoft Office, I've now been told on a newsgroup that it
>>> won't work for work. So what other shrink wrapped product were you
>>> talking about, specifically?
>> 
>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS Office,
>> but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find any place
>> where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>> 
> 
> So, even though it appears OO.o works  in RobB's work environment, you're
> going to tell him it doesn't?

Of course not.  I do not act like you.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 4:14:17 PM
Rick stated in post QbOdnX2N7P7h3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 3:01 AM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:11:39 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> Rick stated in post QbOdnUGN7P6teCfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
>> 9/23/09 8:19 PM:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:10:11 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>> 
>>>> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
>>>> 7:05 PM:
>>>> 
>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>>>>> point about about free software.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>>>>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostly
>>>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if there
>>>>> is specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for the
>>>>> platform you need.
>>>> 
>>>> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there
>>>> is no killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop
>>>> Linux that is not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all
>>>> sorts of niche software... OS X has the graphic and video industry and
>>>> is tops for ease of use... but what claim can desktop Linux make -
>>>> *any* distro?
>>> 
>>> One "killer app" for FOSS systems is ... FOSS... the fact that it is
>>> FOSS. No license worries. The ability for people/companies/whomever to
>>> freely customize the software if they want or need to.
>>> 
>>> FOSS running under a FOSS operating system... killer app. And yes, many
>>> people use it for that very reason.
>> 
>> FOSS is not an application.  Nice try though.
> 
> It is a concept, and you don't get it, as I said in another post.

You say many foolish things.  Sure.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 4:14:36 PM
Rick stated in post QbOdnUKN7P7Q3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 3:00 AM:

.... 
>> Of course I do.  Unlike you, though, I do not deny the problems any of
>> the OSs currently have.
> 
> I do not deny there are areas in which FOSS can be improved.  I  think
> the majority of the  examples you use do not illustrate what you say they
> do. 

Can you give an example or two?   I bet not!

You are really quite bad at supporting anything you say.

> I also think you do not understand that the FOSS ecosystem is
> fundamentally different than the CSS ecosystem, and that you don't
> understand that many of the things you think are weaknesses are actually
> strengths.

Such as?  Again... you will never say.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 4:17:33 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:11:34 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:


> "jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message
> news:sKMum.217090$0e4.151481@newsfe19.iad...
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>
>> Your newsreader is borked.  Your message body was blank and you had at
>> least 50 lines in your signature block.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> OE puts the sig at the top of the message for some reason, if you have
> it inserted automatically.   Your newsreader must automatically trim
> sigs.
> 
>

I saw the sig.  The sig is supposed to be at the bottom.  Your newsreader 
is borked.

0
stonerfish (296)
9/24/2009 4:18:21 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
> 
> 
>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door
>> and make you install a free copy of Linux?
> 
> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
> Linux install gone amok.

Looking for a free lunch?

0
stonerfish (296)
9/24/2009 4:22:00 PM
JEDIDIAH stated in post slrnhbmroe.pnh.jedi@nomad.mishnet on 9/24/09 6:07
AM:

>> It is not a pit. If you think of it as a viper pit, why do you still use
>> it?
>> 
>>> Sure, it has gotten better
>>> - much better - but it is still a mishmash of inconsistent and poorly
>>> followed UI standards
> 
>     If I tool is cool, who cares if it doesn't conform to someone else's
> idea of what that tool should be or what tools in general should be?
> 
>     If I didn't find iPhoto lame on it's merits, I would be more than
> happy to run it in my current enviroment despite the fact that it
> "doesn't fit in". If something really is a killer app, then it's
> something worth putting up with an entire alien environment rather
> than just a small taste.

And when you get a bunch of different UI "standards" on one desktop, you
sacrifice efficiency, productivity, and even enjoyment.  This is well
supported by studies, expert opinion, standards bodies, and even
documentation of such OSS projects as KDE, Gnome, Firefox, and OpenOffice.

I am not saying one should avoid a tool because it has an inconsistent UI, I
am noting there is a weakness to a system that has arbitrarily
inconsistencies in its UI.

If there is a counter to this I would love to see it.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 4:22:59 PM
dennis@home stated in post h9fmf0$8p3$1@news.datemas.de on 9/24/09 4:50 AM:

> 
> 
> "Snit" <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote in message
> news:C6E01E1E.49B9C%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com...
> 
>> When is Linux not free?
> 
> Whenever someone can charge for it.
> You don't think that you aren't paying for the linux running on your router
> do you?
> You are paying if its a commercial router, they pay to develop their bit of
> code or test the free bit of code and they charge for it when you buy the
> product.
> You may be able to download linux free but that doesn't mean someone isn't
> selling it. 

Is it legal to sell Linux?


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 4:23:50 PM
"Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g4ba$m2k$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
> ,----
> | "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
> | I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
> | "Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message
> | news:h9g2gf$v79$2@news.eternal-september.org...
> | >
> | > "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:
> | >
> | >> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.
> | >
> | > Nonsense.
> |
> | Untrue.
>
> Very true I an afraid my pointy headed little chum.

Still untrue.

> |
> | > Market Share is the "share of the available market".
> |
> | Did you figure that out for yourself, or is that Einstein's theory?
>
> Its pretty obvious ...

To whom?

> |
> | Market means sales, not giving away products.   Market share is not user
> | base.
>
> Try and work this out:
>
> The "Market" to sell to is 100 people.

"Sell to" does not mean "give away to."

> MS sell Windows to 99 of them. They gained 99% of the market. The other
> 1% does not disappear. Complicated I know. Try to work it out though.

Yes, I can see it's too complicated for you to work out.   Even if Microsoft 
had 99% of the market that buys software, it would say nothing about how 
many people use free software.

> |
> | > And not
> | > all Linux is "free". It's 100$ if Porter installs it for example.
> |
> | The majority of Linux is given away for free.
>
> Whatever. No one really cares one way or another.

Intelligent people care.

> It being free makes no
> difference in the context of two supposedly sentient beings talking
> about how prolific Linux is on the desktop.

With you being neither of the two!

> Market Share is as good a
> way of describing it as anything.

Market share is only a good way of describing sales success.   It has 
nothing to do with things that are given away for free.

Air has no market share, so I suppose you think that means nobody is 
breathing it?   Perhaps you've taught yourself to breathe bottle water 
instead, due to its better market share?

> |
> | > It would take a particularly dense person not to understand it means 
> in
> | > the real world in the context of desktop OSen.
> |
> | You're being hard on yourself.
> `----
>
> Why are you posting behind a signature delimiter? Too dense to set up
> your news reader?

You like to throw that word "dense" around a lot.   Ironic coming from the 
likes of you.

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:24:21 PM
Rick stated in post QbOdnX-N7P4i2SbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 3:06 AM:

>>> Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load Mac
>>> OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because
>>> Microsoft might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC dorkfest
>>> commercials in a new light.
>> 
>> Sheer numbers, my friend, sheer numbers. I suspect that Apple finds
>> Linux simply too small a market to worry about. Add to that the myriad
>> of distributions and number of different GUIs in use on that platform,
>> and I suspect Apple just figured that it's not worth it..... yet.
> 
> ... Myriad of distributions.. yeah that the excuse that is commonly
> 
> trotted out. It should be fairly easy for Apple to put together a binary
> blob iTunes.

That would not solve the problem of having no target UI to design for.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 4:27:24 PM
"jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message 
news:hZMum.217438$0e4.1533@newsfe19.iad...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:11:34 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>
>
>> "jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message
>> news:sKMum.217090$0e4.151481@newsfe19.iad...
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>
>>> Your newsreader is borked.  Your message body was blank and you had at
>>> least 50 lines in your signature block.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> OE puts the sig at the top of the message for some reason, if you have
>> it inserted automatically.   Your newsreader must automatically trim
>> sigs.
>>
>>
>
> I saw the sig.  The sig is supposed to be at the bottom.  Your newsreader
> is borked.

Yes.   The solution is manual insertion of the sig.

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:27:33 PM
In alt.os.linux.ubuntu *Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 09/23/2009 10:09 PM, RonB wrote:
>> *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>
>>> Some people knit, others collect stamps, yet others like to watch the
>>> progress bar on their AV program as it takes 45 min to clean tracking
>>> cookies from their system. And the paid versions replace the anemic
>>> Windows firewall with their own.
>>>
>>> Avast is like playing a video game and talks to you when updated.
>>
>> I never thought of that. So what you're saying is that Windows is a
>> platform for anti-virus and anti-malware software. So, maybe, Windows
>> users *want* malware and viruses, just so they can have the satisfaction
>> of seeing their boxes cleaned up (sometimes) with their anti-malware
>> software? I used to enjoy watching defrag work, so this makes sense.
>>
>Oh yeah defrag is fun too. Why the hell can't I defrag Linux! I feel 
>cheated. And the biggest issue I have with Vista is that I have not yet 
>figured out how to get that nice full-color spectral display showing the 
>before and after states for defrag like in XP. Vista defrag is boring 
>and takes a REALLY long time with very little for eye candy. Bring a 
>book or two. XP's defrag is hypnotic like a laser light show at a rave. 
>Break out the glow sticks and clove cigs and trance out to Mix Master DJ 
>Billy Gates on the wheel of steel.

>And Linux cheats us out of that nice BSoD display. I miss that. Dammit 
>I'm switching back. Linux is cheating me out of so much fun (AV scans, 
>defrags, BSoD's). Good thing I'm not paying for it or I'd really get upset.

<grin>

You forgot the fun of pointing and clicking and cussing when you find
you've dropped your file into the wrong directory.

But my favorite is turning on my Windows box to do something urgent
and then dealing with all the popups insisting that I upgrade this
or that RIGHT NOW.  And I can't have my machine back until I deal
with all this.

The cure of course is never turn the Windows box on.

-- 
   --- Paul J. Gans
0
gans (63)
9/24/2009 4:29:40 PM

Your replying behind a signature marker makes you not worth debating with. Enjoy.


"Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:

-- 
0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 4:29:57 PM
"Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:

> "jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message 
> news:sKMum.217090$0e4.151481@newsfe19.iad...
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>
>> Your newsreader is borked.  Your message body was blank and you had at
>> least 50 lines in your signature block.
>
> Thanks.
>
> OE puts the sig at the top of the message for some reason, if you have it 
> inserted automatically.   Your newsreader must automatically trim sigs. 
>

Don't be ridiculous. You set it up wrong. The rest of the world managed
just fine.
0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 4:31:09 PM
"Moshe Goldfarb" <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g5d8$3rj$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>
>
>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door and
>> make you install a free copy of Linux?
>
> I'd rather have him crap on my floor.
> It's easier to clean up than a Linux install gone amok.

I tried Ubuntu.   It downloaded and installed like a Windows app.    I got 
it running with a few mouse clicks.  Then I rebooted and went back to Vista. 
Linux is still there for whenever I want to boot into it.

What's going to run amok?

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:31:41 PM
"Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:

> "jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message 
> news:hZMum.217438$0e4.1533@newsfe19.iad...
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:11:34 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message
>>> news:sKMum.217090$0e4.151481@newsfe19.iad...
>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Your newsreader is borked.  Your message body was blank and you had at
>>>> least 50 lines in your signature block.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> OE puts the sig at the top of the message for some reason, if you have
>>> it inserted automatically.   Your newsreader must automatically trim
>>> sigs.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I saw the sig.  The sig is supposed to be at the bottom.  Your newsreader
>> is borked.
>
> Yes.   The solution is manual insertion of the sig.

The solution is setting it up right. Do you really believe for even one
moment that ANY newsreader half set up correctly will put your signature
at the top?!?!?!?!?
0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 4:32:13 PM
"Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g6ue$ema$3@news.eternal-september.org...
> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:
>
>> "jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message
>> news:hZMum.217438$0e4.1533@newsfe19.iad...
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:11:34 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:sKMum.217090$0e4.151481@newsfe19.iad...
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Your newsreader is borked.  Your message body was blank and you had at
>>>>> least 50 lines in your signature block.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> OE puts the sig at the top of the message for some reason, if you have
>>>> it inserted automatically.   Your newsreader must automatically trim
>>>> sigs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I saw the sig.  The sig is supposed to be at the bottom.  Your 
>>> newsreader
>>> is borked.
>>
>> Yes.   The solution is manual insertion of the sig.
>
> The solution is setting it up right. Do you really believe for even one
> moment that ANY newsreader half set up correctly will put your signature
> at the top?!?!?!?!?

Go ahead and tell me what to do in OE to change it.

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:33:49 PM
"Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g6sf$ema$2@news.eternal-september.org...
> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:
>
>> "jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message
>> news:sKMum.217090$0e4.151481@newsfe19.iad...
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>
>>> Your newsreader is borked.  Your message body was blank and you had at
>>> least 50 lines in your signature block.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> OE puts the sig at the top of the message for some reason, if you have it
>> inserted automatically.   Your newsreader must automatically trim sigs.
>>
>
> Don't be ridiculous. You set it up wrong. The rest of the world managed
> just fine.

Tell how to set it up in OE.

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:34:46 PM
JEDIDIAH wrote:

> My mp3 player isn't some sad attempt to make my friends and neighbors jealous.

That's what it seems to come down to. "I paid more for my iPOD MP3 
player than you paid for non-iPOD MP3 player. Neener, neener, neener."

Have I missed something, or don't they both play MP3s?

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 4:37:22 PM
"Hadron" <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g6q7$ema$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
> Your replying behind a signature marker makes you not worth debating with. 
> Enjoy.

You call what you do "debating?"

LOL

>
> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:
>

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 4:37:43 PM
JEDIDIAH wrote:
> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>> There are two classes of music player buyers who don't buy iPods: The 
>> incredibly cheap and the Apple haters who would rather cut their noses off to 
> 
> ...because it just isn't possible that there is some actual reason that
> someone might choose something other than the "one true brand".
> 
> The Lemming mentality in action.

Good grief, there really are tin-foil hat wearing Apple cultists, aren't 
there?

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 4:39:59 PM
In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:

>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.

Poor hardware support?  My my.

Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.

Microsoft and Apple avoid hardware like the plague, which is
why you buy a computer with them already installed.

In general a distribution like Ubuntu installs with very
little trouble on homebuilt hardware (or any other for that
matter).  How do I know?  I've done both -- installed Windows
on homebuilt hardware (an experience I'd not wish on my worst
enemy) and linux, often on the same hardware.

As for multimedia support, that's an interesting thing, isn't
it?  There are two reasons why it is worse on linux (and it is.)
One is that proprietary formats are often used for which a
licence would be needed (you've already paid that fee when you
bought your windows).  The other and much stranger reasson is
that hardware manufacturers are reluctant to provide either
drivers or specifications so that open source drivers could be
written.

Why do you think that is?  Is it that they just don't care about
the extra sales?  Sure.  That's a reason, NOT.  Or could it be
fear that Microsoft would drop them if they were *too* open.

The lack of drivers is slowly fading away as Microsoft's clout
fades a bit.  And open source formats (not just in music, but
file formats as well) are being mandated by more and more companies
and in some cases, governments.  This is for their own protection.
Would you want your sensitive data in a format that you can't
read without Microsoft?  Ha.  Think of Google.  Would they
want their heart in the hands of Microsoft?

As for mainstream applications, that cuts both ways.  If you
are doing movie animation for Disney or one of the other major
studios, you are NOT running windows.  You are running open
source software.  On the other hand application writers do write
for the major OS software.  But again, that is changing as more
and more clones appear.

One last thought.  Apple's OS is based on unix.  Only the graphic
interface is pure Apple.  It is the unix core that gives a Mac
its stability.

-- 
   --- Paul J. Gans
0
gans (63)
9/24/2009 4:54:12 PM
Rick wrote:

> So, even though it appears OO.o works  in RobB's work environment, you're 
> going to tell him it doesn't?

Sounds like Snit. He never let's his ignorance get in the way of his FUD.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 5:11:40 PM
Rick wrote:

> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with 
> each other.

Or which two have the same Menu structures -- which Snit pretends is so 
vitally important.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 5:12:52 PM
"RonB" <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g782$hmg$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
>> My mp3 player isn't some sad attempt to make my friends and neighbors 
>> jealous.
>
> That's what it seems to come down to. "I paid more for my iPOD MP3 player 
> than you paid for non-iPOD MP3 player. Neener, neener, neener."

If that's what your understanding of the thread is then perhaps you need 
some remedial reading lessons.


> Have I missed something, or don't they both play MP3s?

So in your world all cameras are the same because they all take pictures. 
And to you all cell phones are the same because they all make phone calls.





0
not-zeke (902)
9/24/2009 5:13:32 PM
Paul J Gans wrote:

> You forgot the fun of pointing and clicking and cussing when you find
> you've dropped your file into the wrong directory.
> 
> But my favorite is turning on my Windows box to do something urgent
> and then dealing with all the popups insisting that I upgrade this
> or that RIGHT NOW.  And I can't have my machine back until I deal
> with all this.
> 
> The cure of course is never turn the Windows box on.

Works for me.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 5:17:00 PM
RonB stated in post gLNum.201148$sC1.198152@newsfe17.iad on 9/24/09 10:11
AM:

> Rick wrote:
> 
>> So, even though it appears OO.o works  in RobB's work environment, you're
>> going to tell him it doesn't?
> 
> Sounds like Snit. He never let's his ignorance get in the way of his FUD.

But since I never did any such thing, why would you say that?


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 5:27:57 PM
On 2009-09-24, Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> wrote:
> In general a distribution like Ubuntu installs with very
> little trouble on homebuilt hardware (or any other for that
> matter).  How do I know?  I've done both -- installed Windows
> on homebuilt hardware (an experience I'd not wish on my worst
> enemy) and linux, often on the same hardware.

On my Ubuntu Jaunty desktop at home, Flash plays awfully -- with
terrible stuttering -- because of very shitty OpenGL
support. Apparently, most other Linux players use XVideo, which works
very reliably, but for some reason that I did not fully understand,
Flash uses OpenGL, which never really worked well. 

I do not think that a resolution is in sight (ie in the new version).

It is discussed here:

   http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1146319
   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/flashplugin-nonfree/+bug/286673

i
0
Ignoramus2699
9/24/2009 5:28:04 PM
Rotten Apple wrote:

>"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Rotten Apple wrote:
>>
>>>Market share is sales.
>>
>> Wrong.
>
>Really?    

Really.

>Markets don't sell things?

Lemons are not fruits?

>What do you think market share is?

The share of the market.

0
chrisv (22840)
9/24/2009 5:32:40 PM
RonB stated in post oMNum.201174$sC1.53364@newsfe17.iad on 9/24/09 10:12 AM:

> Rick wrote:
> 
>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>> each other.
> 
> Or which two have the same Menu structures -- which Snit pretends is so
> vitally important.

Huh? I have noted that *arbitrary* inconsistencies are detrimental... I am
not against programs maturing and improving over time!

Seriously, why do you lie about me so often?


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 5:34:21 PM
Ignoramus2699 wrote:

> On my Ubuntu Jaunty desktop at home, Flash plays awfully -- with
> terrible stuttering -- because of very shitty OpenGL
> support. Apparently, most other Linux players use XVideo, which works
> very reliably, but for some reason that I did not fully understand,
> Flash uses OpenGL, which never really worked well. 

I'm sorry. My CentOS 5.3, with an Intel graphics card, runs Flash just 
fine. I watch TV shows and movies on Hulu all the time. What video chip 
are you using?

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 5:36:05 PM
Rick stated in post QbOdnUON7P513SbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 2:50 AM:

>> Not after you've used a nice system like Vista or Win7, and some great
>> commercial apps and games.  After that, using Linux is like stepping
>> back 10 years.
>> 
> No, it doesn't.

LOL!  Your should take an English class.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 5:36:08 PM
RonB stated in post h9g782$hmg$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/24/09 9:37
AM:

> JEDIDIAH wrote:
> 
>> My mp3 player isn't some sad attempt to make my friends and neighbors
>> jealous.
> 
> That's what it seems to come down to. "I paid more for my iPOD MP3
> player than you paid for non-iPOD MP3 player. Neener, neener, neener."
> 
> Have I missed something, or don't they both play MP3s?

There is more to a device than *what* it does... there is also how well and
the UI.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 5:36:54 PM
On Sep 24, 10:14=A0am, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> Rick stated in post QbOdnX2N7P7h3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4...@supernews.com on
> 9/24/09 3:01 AM:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:11:39 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
> >> Rick stated in post QbOdnUGN7P6teCfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4...@supernews.com on
> >> 9/23/09 8:19 PM:
>
> >>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:10:11 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
> >>>> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vb...@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/=
09
> >>>> 7:05 PM:
>
> >>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
> >>>>>> point about about free software.
>
> >>>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
> >>>>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows (mostl=
y
> >>>>> free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said before, if the=
re
> >>>>> is specialized software that requires Windows or Mac OS X, go for t=
he
> >>>>> platform you need.
>
> >>>> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there
> >>>> is no killer software for it. =A0What class of software is on deskto=
p
> >>>> Linux that is not done as well or better elsewhere? =A0Windows has a=
ll
> >>>> sorts of niche software... OS X has the graphic and video industry a=
nd
> >>>> is tops for ease of use... but what claim can desktop Linux make -
> >>>> *any* distro?
>
> >>> One "killer app" for FOSS systems is ... FOSS... the fact that it is
> >>> FOSS. No license worries. The ability for people/companies/whomever t=
o
> >>> freely customize the software if they want or need to.
>
> >>> FOSS running under a FOSS operating system... killer app. And yes, ma=
ny
> >>> people use it for that very reason.
>
> >> FOSS is not an application. =A0Nice try though.
>
> > It is a concept, and you don't get it, as I said in another post.
>
> You say many foolish things. =A0Sure.

Speaking of things that people "say", do you have an answer as to why
people say the kinds of things about you that they do... (as shown
below)? There must be a logical reason, right? I mean... can *so many*
people all be wrong about you? Are they *all* lying about you? Are
they *all* trolling you?

My prediction: You will not address this at all... you will run away
as fast as your little legs can carry you.

1- Adam Kesher: "Steve, IIRC Sandman's website has a member area
and a login. If you forget your password, you can ask it to
e-mail it to you, and a bot will send an e-mail.  *That* is the
e-mail Snit got from Sandman's website, and yes he's that fucked
in the head and starved for attention that he'd claim it to be an
e-mail from Sandman himself. So, don't get sucked into his little
circus.  The e-mail, in this particular instance, did probably
originate from Sandman.net."  27 Feb 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/dac74355552b...
2- Alan Baker: "People's perceptions of you are *formed* by
behaviour and not withstanding your occasional on topic posts, I
wish you'd leave too. Please note that despite the amazing
silliness that is Edwin, I have never made the same wish of him."
27 Feb 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/4a7c3ebf3fc...
3- Andrew J. Brehm: "You are not flamed because you speak the
truth, you are flamed because you are a hideous troll and keep
disrupting the newsgroup."
4- AZ Nomad: "The fact that you routinely change your headers to
weasel out of killfiles proves that you're an asshole."   25 Jun 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/51b43d6c9613...
5- Andy/news/nospam: "Why do you keep these things up, Snit? Why
not just let them go away and show how responsible a member of
CSMA you are? You could show your enemies up by being better than
then, rise above the low level you so obviously dislike.
Anything, just stop...."  26 Apr 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d6ffb6b06aa2...
6- B.B.: "Does the From: header contain the string "Snit"? If
yes, then troll. Otherwise, maybe. Dunno why I had my KF on you
set to expire, but it's fixed now."  13 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/8a98d179b2ff...
7- BaJoRi:
Snit: "You are, of course, lying."
BaJoRi: "No, I am not. You know it, and I know it, and everyone
else who has read your idiocy knows it. I took your statement,
showed it to be wrong, then added even more, just to be a dick
and REALLY show you to be a fool. You need to judiciously snip
out pertinent points because you are an intellectually dwarfed
turd-burglar."  11 Nov 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.vacation.las-vegas/msg/647944511b7...
8- bobinnv: "I learned some time ago how much better this group
can be if you kill file Snit. I have never understood why more
people don't do the same.."  5 Aug 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/0706dbef8ce1...
9- Bob S: "This has always been pretty much a free-for-all group,
but since Snit showed up, its become almost impossible to have a
decent discussion about anything."  27 Dec 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3d2f1dff196c...
The solution is to NOT REPLY TO SNIT. But for some reason, some
people just can't stop feeding him."
10- =B0b=B0 unny: Subject "snit makes me sad", Text "really actually
 =3D:-("  9 Oct 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/4e31cb49c1e2...
11- buzz off: "Snit is obviously mentally ill..."
12- Carlo Coggi: "He must believe he is surrounded by 'trolls'
.... in the groups he trolls in, that is.  I wondered if the
idiotrollers like snit would reply to this thread. Of course, I
didn't see his posts, only your reply".
13- chrisv (cola): "No, she called him 'shit', and rightly so,
for they way he was so ignominiously birthed into a toilet at the
bus depot, and simply refused to die, despite repeated flushes.
It's now far too late to *flush* him, but we can still *plonk*
him..."  12 Sep 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/18099f8aa06...
14- C Lund: "Snit is not my responsibility. Maybe it's time for
you to learn how to use your kill-filter. I am assuming, of
course, that your Usenet browser has a kill-filter."  5 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/2c390a34b05b...
15- cc (COLA): "Snit posts all the time. You don't have to dig up
months old articles where he brings up years old topics. Just
respond to a current message."  22 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/5a712e3312b...
16- Code Orange: "Then why post it? What need is there for you to
"win" an argument? They don't like you, you don't like them. Why
must you keep this up? What results are you expecting?"
17- CozmicDebris: "I'm done with your three year old games. The
archives show my answers and your inability to process them. Keep
posting your list and proving that you are an idiot troll. I will
not address it any further- you being too stupid to realize and
accept that is not my problem".  22 Nov 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.cellular.attws/msg/0aa65b7a132dbfe8
18- Dawg Tail: "You've already apologized for having already
misread what I had previously written. What makes you think that
you're correctly understanding what I'm writting now. You've got
a history of reading into things what you wanted people to have
said instead of what they really said.
I suggest you get over this limitation of yours. It's making you
look foolish."
Dawg Tail: "PC advocates, Mac advocates, Linux advocates. Almost
all of them are making similar claims about Snit. When you have
so many diverse people who share a common perception where do you
think the problem lies? With Snit? Or almost everyone else? The
answer doesn't require an advanced degree to figure out."  30 Dec
2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/73edac32c3ad...
19- Dave Fritzinger: "[snip of stuff I really don't care to read]
 Snit, please go away. Get a life, meet a woman, do something,
but please, please, please, GO AWAY!!!!"  2 Jun 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/57bb2fc42ec0...
20- Donald L McDaniel: "Jesus, snit. You're a teacher. I thought
you knew what a metaphor was, and could recognize one when it was
presented to you. I guess I had too much confidence in you."  30
Nov 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3254ec7af27b...
21- ed: "snit, you continually amaze me with how much of a liar
and loser you are. you may notice a semi-regular pattern with me
where i stop responding to your posts for stretches at a time,
then start up responding as if you were a normal person. i
suppose it's tough for the magnitude of your 'loserdom' to stick,
so it loses some of it's sharpness when i stop responding to you.
you almost always start responding back in a semi normal way, but
inevitably degenerate. it's once again that time. i can only ask
that you pass my condolences to your wife and unborn child for
having to put up with such a dishonest fool as yourself. (well,
if your wife is a loser as well, just pass those condolences to
the rug-rat to be; if not, double condolences to her). "  30 Apr 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/71f74dd6d806...
22- Edward Stanfield: "Snit thinks the rules that apply to honest
and honorable people apply to him.  That is absurd.  He is the
biggest liar in Usenet history.  Mackay posted the email to prove
Snit was using sock puppets and he still is.  Snit can not give
up his socks puppets and shills.  They are the only ones who ever
support him."  28 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/5b52494d96d...
23- Edwin: "You've got to be out of your mind, Snit. You're the
worst troll this group has ever seen. You're a liar and a forger,
and you've almost destroyed this group single-handedly. For you
to post a list of out of context arguments, and lies, and
forgeries about your enemies labled as a "peace effort" has to be
one of the craziest stunts you've pulled. It's all about your
sick need for attention, your need to be center stage at all
times. You'd publicly eat dog turd if you thought it would make
people look at you."  18 May 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/37e4a7206196...
24- Elijah Baley: "Seriously, Snit, you need psychiatric help. Go
see a doctor."  24 Aug 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/6f6c88356b54...
25- Elizabot v2.0.2: "I see you were unable to respond to the
points in my post and you are back to your repetitious
regurgitation mode. How childishly typical of you, Snit."  16 Nov
2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/55214ccfb741...
26- fibercut: "That is the problem. In the years I have been
coming to CSMA I have seen in the past year a real hatred among
people, besides the typical Mac vs. Windows typical argument. I
feel that it is like being in a room of really young children
trying there best to best the other person. The one common thing
among all of this seems to be you. I hate to be like this, but
facts are facts. You seem to be in the middle of a great
percentage of arguments. CSMA has become less about Macs and more
about "look everybody, I think he lied". Is there no end then all
this picking at each other on such a personal level. CSMA has
always been al little adversarial but you have personally crank
it up to the point that this place is no longer fun.
Congratulations on stopping CSMA and making this place your own
personal circus."  12 Jan 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/bbe695bbc342...
27- Geezer:
Snit: "Steve Carroll has no sense of morality"
Geezer: "Whined the guy who cannot directly address those who
uncover his lies and deceit;)"
Snit: "and no clue about the law."
Geezer: 'Said the guy who believes his unsupported opinions are
"proof". LOL! (snip more of Snit's unsupported lies)'  1 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/d0517ced513...
28- Geoff M. Fitton (COLA): "The Prescott Computer Guy *still*
showing how stupid he is... What a mar00n".  30 Aug 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/f9401b4b57c...
29- George Graves: "Jason. You have started an argument with the
Snit (AKA Michael Glasser), this should not be done. He will
drive you crazy with his twisted logic, his deep-rooted need to
be ALWAYS right at any cost. He will move goalposts, set up
strawmen, and bore you into submission with his endless
pedanticism. The only way to engage him is to hit and run. NEVER
engage him, it's a futile, empty procedure that will only anger
you and feed him. Take my advice and STAY AWAY!"   27 Oct 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3d3af33ce25a...
30- gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com: "Hitting the vodka tonight
Snit?"  4 Mar 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b457a7b37826...
31- Greycloud: "You really shouldn't lie like that. Everyone else
notices that you are not honest and you have no honor."  21 Jan 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3b92f11a1ab0...
32- H: "Your crappy posts are still showing up in seperate
threads, are you doing this on purpose to piss people off? I dont
ever censor people cause that's just retarded but if you dont fix
it I'm gonna have to cause I dont wanna see your name 40 times in
a row. So uh, change your client or something".  12 Sep 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/f36ee6b458c8...
33- Hadron (COLA):
Snit: "Now why not end your silliness and either just stop your
BS or actually give reasoned comments on the screen shots you
keep asking for and I keep providing?
Hadron: "err, he just did. And you snipped it all you weasel."
30 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/de49f2b7471...
Snit: "Sigh: 100% predictable, you will not answer *any* question
I just asked. You will run... your whole goal is to beg for
attention, not to make or support a point."
Hadron: "nice. You made it into my new killfile. Jesus, stop
repeating the same garbage."  6 Apr 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/c86ab53a759...
34- Henry Flam: "Who gives a damn about this shit? Snit, once in
a while, I make the mistake in thinking that that you are
starting to make sense in your posts; I tend to agree with your
politics. Then you post stuff like this and it destroys any
respect that I have for you."  16 Aug 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/f048bedfe0d6...
35- Heywood Mogroot: "*plonk*"
36- -hh: 'Perversion has utterly nothing to do with the
definition of "synonymous".  It is, however, a very clear example
of how you attempt to maliciously debase against anyone who
disagrees with you.  As such, I consider this to be a purposeful
attempt by you to try to libel me.  This is your only warning to
consider rescinding your remark, with the reminder that you, and
you alone are responsible for that accusation, both in the
ethical as well as the full legal meaning of the word
"responsible".'  25 Feb 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5496641a3426...
37- High Plains Thumper: "I can understand why posters get sick
and tired of your lame ad hominem attacks, your cowardly
statements shifting the goal posts, your continuous rambling
drivel of how everyone seems to be against you.  No one cares a
wooden nickel about your incessant flame wars that are self
created.  You pretend to be an advocate but you manage to cause
everyone's hand to be against you."  6 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b27ba196819a...
Only once in a blue moon does he have anything worth reading.  I
just got through his circus of repetitive ad hominem crap.  I am
surprised that with the stunts he has pulled in COLA and this
newsgroup, that he hasn't suffered a worse fate in real life.  If
he hasn't, one of these days he will pull that stunt on the wrong
person, and *B-O-O-M-!*, someone will pull the trigger.  One
ought to really pity him (or as Steve Travis stated, "Or perhaps
we should set up a fund to get him more happy glue (and the
appropriate plastic bags)."  8 Jul 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/2666237bba82...
38- Homer (COLA):
HPT: "Snit in a period of 2 minutes has copied a post of mine,
posting the same following message over and over, in false
pretense as a Linux advocate."
Homer: "That kind of behaviour is not normal, to say the least.
I don't mean this as a personal insult, but I'm perfectly serious
when I say 'Snit' (Michael Glasser) is obviously mentally ill,
and needs help.  I was going to suggest that someone alerts his
wife to the problem, but I have to assume she's already aware of
his condition, if she is in fact still living with him. It's
possible, I suppose, that he's already undergoing counselling
and/or on medication, but if he is then it doesn't seem to be
helping much. Maybe he just missed his 'meds' today (again, I
mean that sincerely).  26 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/e061874ea94...
39- Jamie Hart (cola): "It seems that since you are unable to
offer support for your statements, you're reduced to personal
attacks on me. Incidentally, anyone reading this post can see
that I have offered no straw men, and have only asked you to
explain how the things you state as facts can be true. I'm really
sorry that you're taking this attitude, the topic is an
interesting one and I thought you might have some insights. I've
snipped the rest, since you dislike long posts and avoid
answering any of the questions I asked by saying everything was
just repeated."  6 Dec 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/8e07cde31f4e...
40- Jason McNorton: "You're one of the many, many paranoid people
on usenet that should be confined most likely. You sit there and
refresh your screen endlessly. You post the same nonsense over
and over. Either you're a super troll, or you're a super mess."
1 Nov 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7a8e091c0b24...
41- JEDIDIAH (cola): "You're simply full of shit."
42- Jeff B.: "Yo, Snit. We're not pals. I think you're a git."
23 Dec 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/0ec649345d43...
43- Jeff Hoppe: "This is a Macintosh Advocacy newsgroup. Not a
12-step recovery plan. Your medical problems or conditions won't
help me achieve a greater understanding of my Mac. In fact, it
detracts from it and those kinds of discussions have no place in
a newsgroup such as this."  18 Nov 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/947a2cc0301a...
44- Jesus: "Really, Snit. It's annoying. What are you
accomplishing besides being annoying? Is that your goal?"  25 Apr
2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/e3d5029d34cd...
45- Jim Lee Jr.: "Snit, read the thread's title, is Bush
mentioned in it? You (and Carroll) ought to learn to stay on
topic and not hijack threads."
46- Jim Polaski: "Why is it that nearly every thread you're
involved in seems like it turns into some tit-for-tat, dozens of
responses to OT things and garbage? Cmon there Snit. Someone has
to take the lead and stop this crap. Try. How about it?"  25 Apr 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5b5c22490ab9...
47- Jim Richardson (cola): "And yet again, Snit runs away, rather
than actually provide evidence for his claims. Par for the course
I suppose."
"Evasion noted. Snit runs away again rather than produce evidence
for his claims.  At least come up with some original insults
Snit! I mean, you *are* capable of original thoughts! Right?
Snit?"  8 Feb 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/e33321cc334...
48- Joey Jojo Junior Shabadoo: "and Snithead has even farther to
fall - in a few weeks he'll be out on the street after midnight,
yelling at passersby 'sucky sucky, $2...'"  23 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/57cf69f6657...
49- John C. Randolph: "You're nothing but a troll yourself. What
are you bitching about?"
50- JohnOfArc (cola): "I'm not sure "troll" does it justice- more
like a black hole! But hey, if we all promise to never again even
entertain an unkind thought re Apple, will you take it back and
lock it up? Please??"  11 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/e2891b1f3984...
51- John Q. Public: "I have not been bothered to read Snit's
postings since I figured out who he is. I don't bother to filter
his posts, I just consider the source and skip to the next one
when I see his name."  7 Jan 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7d34c1bd05c8...
52- John Slade: "I don't get posts from Snit. I wouldn't be
shocked that he has some kind of disorder. He made up stuff about
being a computer repairman and teacher. He's just plain loony and
best ignored. Let him deal with his disorder by medication. He's
here to do one thing, get attention from people. He says the
crazy stuff just to get a reaction.
You say you like to beat him over the head. Well that's what he's
counting on, he says stuff he knows isn't true in hopes to get a
rise out of people like you. Ignore him, you won't regret it."  3
Apr 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/394a53a65c28...
"Snit, you have a enough problems as it is without adding
drinking booze to the list. How the hell did you manage to get
out of my killfile? Oh well back into the cage you go, PLONK."
13 Oct 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.food.wine/msg/992a796786a541d8
53- Josh McKee: "Snit, I assume there was some point to this
posting? Because I certainly cannot find it."
54- K E: "I haven't read this board for awhile but I see that
even though the trolls still roam free at least the worst troll
of the lot is mostly being ignored by readers on this bb. If the
few stragglers that keep replying to him would just stop
responding to Snit at all this place could be worth coming back
to. There's a good chance he'll pack up and take his trolling to
more fertile ground."  22 Oct 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/0b9dca7df1f6...
55- KK: 'Whoa there, ad hominem man.  You started off your
sentence with "Ah" like you'd just realized something profound.'
 29 Oct 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.howard-stern/msg/6a89029a5b5be5f8
56- Kelsey Bjarnason (cola): "Funny how you simply don't bother
reading the posts that rip your entire thesis to bleeding gobbets
of putrid excrescence. Maybe some day you'll learn how to support
your position, instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and
humming, hoping it'll all go away."  7 Mar 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/96d064a7a5c6...
57- Ku Karlovsky (cola): "You repeatedly chastise others for ad
hominem attacks while in the same sentence make your own ad
hominem attacks. You make silly claims and then avoid the subject
of your silliness. You're a liar and a hypocrite and you always
have been."  14 Jul 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d1e3f9ac5c72...
58- Lars Trager: "Yes, you are stupid."  7 Jan 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/a9bedf6689f9...
59- Lefty Bigfoot: "Okay, I tried to put up with it for a long
time, but the few times you post something worth reading just
aren't worth it anymore. *plonk*"  16 Dec 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5520adae0112...
60- Liam Slider (cola): "Maybe he's responding to the fact you've
been an annoying little fuckwit lately. You started out with the
pretense of trying to be fair, but lately all there is from you
in COLA is trashtalk about Linux and you acting every bit the
troll."  16 Jul 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/ad7d6c42c5e4...
61-libcrushersmith: "Snit also thinks Dan Rather still anchors
CBS News and that Gitmo terrorists are innocent!  Any time Snit
is cornered, he changes the subject and will never admit he's
wrong."  28 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/fbc516717f3...
62- libsnightmare:
Snit: "Who said Bush did not flip flop?"
libsnightmare: "Never said that. I put back in what you cut out.
He never flip-flopped on the war, even when it was unpopular,
like "Kerry and all the other libs" did. You're a sore loser who
has resorted to fifth grade tactics. How fucking sad - all this
clown has left is to edit posts and post fake bullshit. You can't
debate... so you lie. Once again, you have proved Steve Carroll
right about you. Sad..."  4 May 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/a80c93f80bd6...
63- Linonut (cola): "Snit is a Tholenoid."
"Indeed.  Snit may be the first retraction of my general killfile
amnesty.  The volume of cavilling, whining, foot-stomping,
back-tracking, goal-post shifting, and petulance generated by
that effete candy-ass beggars belief".  30 Aug 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/cc4827fd7e8a...
64- Lloyd Parsons: "Well, I don't know if Oxford is the most
cretinous, I would think that would be reserved for Snit! ;-)"
18 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/b6cd3ac4bf1...
65- Mark Kent (cola): "The problem with someone like Mr Glasser
is the same as it is with Mr Wong, even if he were to be honest
now, it would be impossible to determine where the honesty starts
and the usual dishonesty ends. In my primary school, one of the
teachers was very keen on proverbs, and I recall her going over
the "cry wolf" story. Mr Glasser could "cry wolf" over and over
now, and I would not come to help him with his sheep, because I
do not know any way of determining if he's ever telling the
truth, or indeed, if he ever has."  2 Dec 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3f30aa1b65a9...
66- Mayor of R'lyeh: "The fact is that he's probably pulling it
to this post since its all about him and he managed to make me
think about him today. A friend of mine has a toddler. I went
over to her house and videotaped her kid doing a bunch of cute
toddler stuff then burned a DVD of it for her. While we were
watching the DVD her kid got mad. He got mad because we quit
making him the center of attention and made that kid on the tv
the center of attention. He even ran up to the tv and tried to
block our view of it. That's how Snit lives his whole life."  30
Sep 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/9935f4154d5a...
67- Michelle Ronn: "The real topic here is that one someone
refutes your 'facts', you run away and ignore them. Refuting your
'facts' is easily done in this case. I did it, and you ignored
it."  9 Feb 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/c050c8272073...
68- Mike: "Nonsense. I never see you "advocate" anything. All I
see you doing is engage in endless semantic arguments with
everyone. You're the TholenBot of CSMA. BTW, that's *not* a
compliment!"  8 Jul 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7c5b72d70b87...
69- Mike Dee: "I will no longer accuse you of lying here. Instead
I can only say that you are a complete and delusional kook that
happens to inhabit CSMA for the time being. That you are unaware
of how deranged you actually behave further reinforces this
notion. Please seek professional help."
"The point that keeps whooshing over your head Snit, is Elizabot
made no threat to you before you went to the police. She made a
promise. Admittedly, to your delusional spaced out paranoiac view
point, Elizabot was suddenly "threatening" to you. In so much as
you had to take your kooky self down to your local police shop
and blub on their shoulders about how much in danger you were in
[sob, whine], and they had to waste valuable policing time
consoling you over your stupidity. I bet they have Kook with a
capital "K" written at the top of your profile, Snit."  2 Sep 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/9cf45bc88a32...
70- mmoore321: "Snit is a human car-accident and we are all
rubbernecking. We know it is bad form, but yet strangely curious.
Treat him the same way, look but just keep moving on."  18 Aug 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/f1c3041d8950...
71- Mojo: "Actually, these facts piss everybody off because they
are off-topic, unnecessarily confrontational, extremely boring
and clearly show that you are crying out for attention."  20 Sep 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/a38f07b9a481...
72- Mr. Blonde: "Lastly, I can't help but comment on the fact
that your obsession with Sandman has actually grown since you
claimed to KF him. Killfilling someone generally implies you're
ignoring that person, yet you piggyback onto virtually every
reply to him here and and check his website's validation status
more often than most people check their e-mail. These are not the
actions of a mentally balanced individual."  19 Jan 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/2b005666ab30...
73- MR_ED_of_Course: "Seriously, spend half a day at any
pre-school or kindergarten and see if the kids there can't teach
you a thing or two about social behavior."  16 May 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/55c03a6a0b78...
74- Muahman: "Ummm, dude you post 1000 posts a day. 999 of them
are trolls, if anyone here has issues it's not me."   24 Sep 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/ad9daff74ee1...
Muahman: "LOL, everyone hates Snit. I know I'd push him in front
of a bus if I could."  15 May 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/e5ee46bf5bf0...
Muahman: "Ahhhh shit, another thread lost to the Snit retard
circus!!!  I actually dread seeing Snit reply to a thread because
that automatically means it's in the toilet."  8 Jul 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/92e776d521df...
75- Nashton/Nasht0n: "Oh for crying out loud, if I wasn't
convinced that snit is a total loser, and I rarely call people
losers, I certainly am now. Why bother responding to his
stupidities anyway?"  29 Nov 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/be1a326a8144...
76- New Bee: "Honest and honorable? You? You've either got a wry
sense of humor, or you're completely nuts. Either way you're just
a waste of time, and you've done more than anybody to make this
group a cesspool. Then you revel in wallowing in your own filth."
 14 May 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/2856277b085d...
77- Not Important: "I get this mental image of you and a sibling
as children in the back seat of the family car saying:
Mom, 'snits' touching me ... and you responding much as you do
now ... I'm not touching you, you're touching me! The problem is
that by now you should've grown out of that type of poke and
complain interaction with others. But, of course, you've haven't
learned how to interact with others in a more 'constructive' and
mutually beneficial manner even now."  03 Jul 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d16279e9003c...
78- OldCSMAer: "What's he been doing? Am I going to be sorry I
killfiled him?"  27 Nov 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/23b808d9646c...
79- OldSage: "What drives me nuts is your unrelenting ability and
desire to argue on the head of a pin about the most trivial of
things."  2 Oct 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/88457f8e7c25...
80- Oxford: "If you are using MT-Newswatcher:  Select offending
Author, example Snit...  Go to the Filters Menu, Choose 'Kill
this Author'  Click 'OK'  Then Repeat with each annoying Author
of your choice.  Then to see your work... Choose the Filter Menu
again, Then 'Refilter Articles'...  Bam! No more boring,
pointless bickering about nothing.  Enjoy!!!!!"  14 Aug 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/1d7f9181e95e...
81- Patrick Nihill: "I mean, honestly, who would you rather
discuss something with; Dan, or someone like Zara? Or, for that
matter, Snit, for whom the work 'troll' seems so painfully
inadequate?"  13 Aug 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/f93db68e683a...
82- Pawel Wojciak: "Jesus Christ, snit... <plonk> "
83- PC Guy: "Forget it Snit, you're a waste of time. For someone
who talks about everyone else not being "honest and honorable"
you appear to be the least honest and honorable of anyone here."
 22 Apr 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/36bf51df2a26...
84- Peter: "I've never felt the need to use the filters in
Newswatcher but I thought Id try the Kill this Author.. option
with Snit. Ten seconds later and he's gone! Amazing."  30 Dec 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/011eef01d7bc...
85- Peter Bjorn Perlso: "Plonked for 60 days. Now stfu and take
your argument with sandman into the private room."  13 Dec 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/ae4651ec99be...
86- Peter Hayes: "True, but that removes Snit completely, and
someti... err..... occasiona.... errrrr..... once in a blue moon
he has something useful to say."
87- Peter Jensen (cola): "Where has he ever said that they were
not different windowing environments? Message-ID, please.
Experience has told me not to trust you on anything without
backing evidence."
88- Peter Kohlmann (cola): "Snot is a hideous troll. Nobody is as
dishonest as that piece of unadultered garbage. There are csma
posters even more stupid than Snot. Oxford comes to mind. There
are certainly other csma posters who lie nearly as much. But no
others are so intent on trolling in whatever way possible as
Snot"  15 Mar 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3409d9582dce...
89- PeterBP: "Oh will you stfu".
90- Phil Earnhardt: "You're only interested in trying to get
superficial snipes and extrapolate inappropriate conclusions."  1
Nov 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/ad24a97d5dc8...
91- Rapskat (cola): "For instance, your sig you reference a long
standing war you have going with some person from csma. It's like
you single out persons to target your attentions upon and then
continuously berate them with constant barbs and goads to
perpetuate their acrimonious responses, which in turn you respond
in kind, etc. ad infinitum. Above all things, your affinity for
Macs and your overbearing pompous nature aside, this is what
convinces me that your primary purpose for frequenting this and
other groups is to troll."  07 Sep 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/a09c6b8e3e6...
92- RichardK: "Just killfile him already."
93- Rick (cola): "Snit, you are a liar. And an ignorant one. You
trash people that are trying their level best to cope with a
horrendous situation. And you do it without the slightest idea of
what is going on."  06 Sep 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/fcad2955ac5c...
94- Rick G.: "Just to be plain here, I have no doubt that he is a
troll. I am tolerant of his nature, not blind to it. However, as
a troll, he is ... somewhat clumsy."  22 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/198b88e3d006...
95- Robert F.: "Um, perhaps you misunderstand. I don't care if
you quote Mayor McCheese claiming the Earth is a flat plate
perched on the shell of a tortoise, I was merely pointing out
that you run the risk of looking ridiculous when you quote
something patently stupid. If that's your goal, you're on the
right track, and more power to you."  11 Jan 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/4dc22433eae8...
96- RonB (COLA): "Snit is a crank fixated on one issue, who's
thing is twisting your words so he can win an argument against a
straw man. That's enough to killfile him." 1 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usenet.kooks/msg/ce8550d4cc5b1b42
97- Roy Culley (cola): "You appear to be in the latter category.
Starting crossposted threads for the simple purpose of hoping to
generate a flame war. If you truly want to learn more about Linux
and how it can help you and your supposed users why aren't you
requesting help from a more technical Linux newsgroup than an
advocacy group? As the old saying goes, those who can do, those
who can't teach. Your posts seem to confirm that saying IMHO."
12 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/d521a80051e...
98- S'mee (Keith, rec.motorcycles): "Liar...forger and worthless.
You must be related to our resident racist troll, he lies as much
as you."  29 Dec 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/ab08c00330c...
99- Sandman: "He is by far the most killfiled person in the
-HISTORY- of csma. I've never seen someone so disliked, almost
hated, in a news group before. He has the ability to turn just
about any person against him in just a few posts. On usenet,
trolls do this daily, but the funny part with Michael is that I
actually think he DOESN'T consider himself be a troll - damn what
-EVERYONE ELSE- is calling him. Obviously they are wrong. Only
Tholen himself can match this behaviour."  18 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/51c0735c7742...
100- sav: "You really need to take a rest somewhere nice.
Honestly, even the nutters who hang out down on Brighton seafront
made more sense than this. You been doing drugs or something?"
25 May 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/1b251baa5c64...
101- Sean Burke: If you're dumb enough to respond to snit, you're
probably dumb enough to click on a spam attachment that promises
to remove smut from your harddrive."  21 Jan 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/e166032d8959...
102- Sermo Malifer (COLA):
Snit: "Why do so many people in COLA argue *against* me..."
Sermo Malifer: "Because you're a narcissistic troll who posts
trash just to get people talking about you."  21 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/5ddf14f502e...
103- spike1: "The thought is probably to show everyone here just
how bad a troll snit is".
104- ShutterBugz: "so snit-zel has some kind of problem
expressing anger, i guess. he has to vent his frustrations in
other ways. and he thinks he's making sense: well the syntax is
there and he figures he's pretty smart. indeed, he tells us, he's
done the personality tests and the iq tests and he's okay!
aaaaahhhhh, you see he's soooooooo well adjusted."  3 Mar 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7f9fa1cf9049...
105- Steve Carroll: "The only things we are sure about Snit is
that he has:
* a monumental reading comprehension problem.
* nym-shifted numerous times to avoid kill-files.
* built too many straw-men to count... some, the size of small
cities.
* been labeled a disingenuous liar/troll(or worse) by the vast
majority.
* used numerous sock-puppets and admitted to it.
* stolen IDs and admitted to it.
* gotten booted off by ISPs for his behavior.
* twisted more context than all csma posters combined.
* made more unsupported accusations than all csma posters combined.
* virtually no life outside of csma."
106- Steve Mackay: "Just killfile Snit, the dishonest piece of
elephant dung, and all would go away. Sure, I got caught up in
the "Snit Circus", but then the cotton candy began to sour, and
CSMA begun to smell like elephant dung."  18 Aug 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/9fc11094133d...
Welcome to the Snit circus, where the popcorn and cotton candy
are stale, and the smell of elephant dung is everywhere.  27 Dec 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/614daf295b50...
107- Steven de Mena: "Sorry, you have now lost all credibility
with me for your rediculous argument regarding this."  26 Sep 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/1c8777d39c34...
108- Steve Travis: "Oh oh...  Now look what we've done.  Snit has
lost all self respect and has sunk to the point of using words
like 'asses' when referring to others.  Oh, how could the morally
superior snit have fallen so low..  Please take a moment out of
your busy schedule to feel embarassed for him.  Or perhaps we
should set up a fund to get him more happy glue (and the
appropriate plastic bags)."  27 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3edd9ab69425...
109- Stuart Krivis: "You might as well just give up and plonk him
then. A snit is a snit is a snit and always will be."  15 Aug
2006 (post not available except in reply)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5b382420a696...
110- Tattoo Vampire (COLA): "In other words, in another attempt
to troll, you made yourself look like a fool. Again".  28 Aug 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b2676d3540e0...
111- The Lost Packet (COLA): "well, he's found a seat in my
killbin, I can't be doing with him."  27 Jan 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/2007526a552...
112- TheLetterK: "That is merely your perception, Shit. You're
the one lacking counter evidence, and your arguments basically
amount to "I'm right, nya nya nya." No matter how many examples
someone points at to demonstrate their claim, you blindly
continue to insist that they provide no evidence, or that the
evidence given is irrelevant. Worse still, you fall back on straw
men and disingenuous quote mangling to portray the argument in
your favor. You are one of the worst trolls that inhabit CSMA,
Shit. *Edwin* is more prone to fits of reason than you are."  23
Sep 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d488596b5713...
113-Tim Adams: "I'd kill file you but then I'd miss the fun. you
see, you never cease to amaze me at just how stupid you really
are. Why just the other day I had a great laugh when I saw you,
the king of liars (in this NG anyway) calling somebody else a
liar."  13 Nov 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/40c7f9407179...
114- Tim Crowley: "I don't know - I think you might have more
compassion. Snit is sick. He needs help. This is the only way the
poor sick fool can get attention. My fucking God, he's taken to
hanging out with and supporting racist pig fuckers like MuahMuah.
It is true that no-one likes him and those that pretend they do
are just using him or don't know him - but come on- it's not his
fault. He's sick. Have some compassion, eh? All these idiot
trolls, Zara, Stew, Tommy, MuaaaahMuaaah, and Snit - they are all
so alike. I pity each and every one of them"  19 Apr 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/67f0f174110b...
115- Tim Smith: "No, he didn't, and there is no reasonable way
you could actually believe he lied. You are purely trying to
troll here."  14 Apr 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/6e3cfd9240ac...
116- Timberwoof: "*Plonk!*"
117- Tom Bates: "Do you have to turn any thread you post in into
one of your Circus acts?"  20 Feb 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/25f0e481b605...
118- Tommy: "In case you did not get it, I think the moral was:
Stop polluting the world with your infantile and obsessive
"writings". You give Mac advocacy a bad name. If that was your
goal you have succeeded! That also goes for all that bullshit on
your website"  11 Jun 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/03610d208032...
119- TravelinMan: "I still can't figure out what's wrong with
Snit. Most people have him kill-filed and the few who don't
mostly restrict their responses to 'why don't you go away, no one
wants you here'. Just what would keep someone in this group with
all of that animosity? Must be some kind of severe mental
illness."  17 Mar 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/45197fbb46d4...
120- Wally: "Because by your own admission "honor and honesty"
are nothing more than a "game" to you, as such not only do you
wish to define the rules, but no doubt you will also attempt to
alter or bend the rules when inevitably things do not go to your
liking, for this reason I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to
play your game."  16 May 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b9b3ed1ee20e...
121- WhoMe: "F michael IS a teacher, it's no wonder he's home
more than he's anywhere near a classroom".
122- William Poaster: "Good grief. If anyone's having a mental
breakdown it's the Prescott Computer Guy, Michael Snit Glasser.
What a f#cked up mess he is."  29 Aug 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/914d1e74855f...
123- William R. Walsh: "Now, if you'll excuse me, and accept my
sincere apologies for this, PLONK! Feel proud about that. You're
the first person to be plonked from my new computer!  :-)  "  10
Feb 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/313c7368f636...
124- Woofbert: "*Plonk*"
125- zara: "Look - I'm not into combing through thousands of
posts, to prove what was said or not said - I leave stuff like
that to people without lives, like Snit. But it is assuredly, in
the record. Ping Snit to do a search - you will flatter him, and
give meaning to his tawdry little life."  25 Oct 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/a1d4fc7120a6...
126- Zaren Ankleweed: "And with that, Snit goes in the global
killfile. No subject, no author, no nothing. Buh-bye".  11 Sep 2004
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/12f7c34f24d4...
127- Znu: "I think your 'I'll go start a new thread to try to
draw more people into the debate I'm currently having with
Steve/Elizabot/etc' tactic is fairly trollish."
128- Thufir: "It's based on *your* MO that I, at least, have no
problem in stating that you're full of shit on nearly any topic.
I've observed your bullshit, and based on that pattern of
bullshit, infer that you're full of it. Your MO is the evidence,
the logic is an inference based on the evidence."  21 Aug 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/c89d3cf79e80...
Thufir: "You can "prove" that no one has disproved your "proof"?
Again, your assertion that no one has done so is even *less*
convincing than your claim that some PDF "proves" whatever point
you're trying to make precisely because I'm familiar with your
MO. That is, you're a dumb-ass who would claim that that
something is proved when it's not, and who would ignore
counter-examples disproving your contention. I don't know what
this *ages old* thread is about, but I know that you're full of
shit."  21 Aug 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5114623055c0...
129- Fa-groon: "I don't read Snit period. He's been killfiled
since the first day I posted here. [....] I don't want to 'do
like Snit'. As far as I'm concerned, Snit doesn't even exist."
15 Aug 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/dcfbff305ba8...
130- hophead: "I have been reading and occasionally posting to
CSMA for a long time now, since 1995 at least. There have always
been trolls and morons, but I've never seen anything quite so
disruptive as the Snit circus. Snit will *never* back down or
stop, and neither will most of his opponents.  A good kill file
is your only hope."  20 Aug 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3161a78667e2...
hophead: "It's best to killfile snit, and if you can, set up a
filter to kill any responses to snit.  Or (as I've been forced to
do) killfile those who insist on responding to him. Yes, you do
miss some advocacy from some of those people, but the joy of not
seeing snit or any responses to him far outweighs the cost.  Of
course, snit also uses sockpuppets. They are pretty easy to
identify fortunately and are easily killed as well."  19 Aug 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d0cb5d4f4d1c...
0
fretwizz (2823)
9/24/2009 5:46:56 PM
Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> writes:

> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.
>
> Poor hardware support?  My my.
>
> Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
> it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.

It's all well and good to sing Linux praises for what it is : a bloody
great OS - stable and secure.

But to talk such obvious bollox as above make you sound like a braying
jackass.

MS and Apple are far better supported with Modern HW. And no amount of
how you play your silly word games will change that.

Yes, Linux does install a lot easier on a lot of newish and older
HW. But to claim its driver support for modern HW is even a patch on the
two leading OSen is poppycock.
0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 5:49:04 PM
On 2009-09-24, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ignoramus2699 wrote:
>
>> On my Ubuntu Jaunty desktop at home, Flash plays awfully -- with
>> terrible stuttering -- because of very shitty OpenGL
>> support. Apparently, most other Linux players use XVideo, which works
>> very reliably, but for some reason that I did not fully understand,
>> Flash uses OpenGL, which never really worked well. 
>
> I'm sorry. My CentOS 5.3, with an Intel graphics card, runs Flash just 
> fine. I watch TV shows and movies on Hulu all the time. What video chip 
> are you using?
>

A better question would be, what Flash are you using? This is mostly
the issue of Flash 10 not working right.

Nevertheless, here's my card information. It is not really
determinative of the issue. The issue is Flash 10 and, possibly, other
OS components.

Home:
02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G72 [GeForce 7300 LE] (rev a1)

Work:
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation Quadro NVS 290 (rev a1)

Laptop:
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)

i
0
Ignoramus2699
9/24/2009 5:53:51 PM
"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message 
news:j6bnb5hdslh4m4ojajin9f5cqe9fn43kio@4ax.com...
> Rotten Apple wrote:
>
>>"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>
>>>>Market share is sales.
>>>
>>> Wrong.
>>
>>Really?
>
> Really.
>
>>Markets don't sell things?
>
> Lemons are not fruits?

How is that an answer to my question?

>>What do you think market share is?
>
> The share of the market.

The share of the market that gives things away for free?   When did they 
start that market? 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 6:19:48 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:22:00 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door
>>> and make you install a free copy of Linux?
>> 
>> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
>> Linux install gone amok.
> 
> Looking for a free lunch?

Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
me.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 6:22:23 PM
"Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> wrote in message 
news:h9g5kf$9u3$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Ezekiel" <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
> news:h9g35i$gq4$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> wrote in message 
>> news:h9g293$4ch$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
>>> I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
>>> "Ezekiel" <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:h9ft25$vb8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>
>>>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
>>>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the 
>>>>> general
>>>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>>>> statistical inferences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>>>> report.
>>>>>
>>>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>>
>>>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be 
>>>> measured.
>>>
>>
>>> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.
>>
>> Fine... so Linux has a sale price of $0.00.  So what share/percentage of 
>> the market is buying into Linux for $0 versus the percentage of the 
>> market that's using other OS's or products?
>
> Linux isn't sold into a market, hence market share numbers for it have no
> meaning.
>
>> Feel free to explain how Firefox (also free/$0) can have a marketshare 
>> and why CBS nighlty news (also free/$0) is losing marketshare to it's 
>> competitors.
>
> Firefox has a user base, not a market share.   Neither IE nor Firefox are
> sold, hence neither have any market share.  Only user base.
>
> -- 
> "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
> I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
>
>

Yawwwnnnn.  You can play your little semantic games all you want and call it 
"user base", "user share", "market penetration", "market share", "usage 
base" or whatever else you want to call it.

But in the end it all boils down to the same thing - what percentage of 
people are using X versus the percentage of people using Y.



0
not-zeke (902)
9/24/2009 6:27:46 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:54:12 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans wrote:

> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.
> 
> Poor hardware support?  My my.
> 
> Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
> it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.

All my systems are top of the line and home built, except for my
Mac and one ancient Dell.

Never had a problem.

You must be doing something wrong.

0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 6:29:23 PM
Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:54:12 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans wrote:
>
>> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>>>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>>>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>>>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.
>> 
>> Poor hardware support?  My my.
>> 
>> Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
>> it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.
>
> All my systems are top of the line and home built, except for my
> Mac and one ancient Dell.
>
> Never had a problem.
>
> You must be doing something wrong.
>

He is. He's trying to tell people lies in the hope of sucking up to
Linux "advocates". Why people can't advocate such a great system without
telling lies is, frankly, bewildering. But as you say, you're either
100% with them or you're against them.


0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 6:32:34 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:49:04 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> writes:
> 
>> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>>>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>>>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>>>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.
>>
>> Poor hardware support?  My my.
>>
>> Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
>> it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.
> 
> It's all well and good to sing Linux praises for what it is : a bloody
> great OS - stable and secure.
> 
> But to talk such obvious bollox as above make you sound like a braying
> jackass.
> 
> MS and Apple are far better supported with Modern HW. And no amount of
> how you play your silly word games will change that.
> 
> Yes, Linux does install a lot easier on a lot of newish and older
> HW. But to claim its driver support for modern HW is even a patch on the
> two leading OSen is poppycock.

Why do Linux users seem to have so many problems with Windows?

The first question that should be asked is why did he buy dodgy
hardware to begin with?

Why?

Because that's preciously the question the freetards ask when
people complain of the lack of hardware support that Linux has.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 6:32:39 PM
Rotten Apple wrote:

>"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Rotten Apple wrote:
>>
>>>"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Market share is sales.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong.
>>>
>>>Really?
>>
>> Really.
>>
>>>Markets don't sell things?
>>
>> Lemons are not fruits?
>
>How is that an answer to my question?

It's not.  It helps illustrate your idiocy for asking your stupid
question.

Just because all lemons are fruits, does not mean that all fruits are
lemons.

Similarly, just because markets sell things, does not mean that all
things in a market are sold.

>>>What do you think market share is?
>>
>> The share of the market.
>
>The share of the market that gives things away for free?   

Some things in this market are free, yes.

>When did they start that market? 

A long time ago.  Where have you been?

0
chrisv (22840)
9/24/2009 6:36:11 PM
"Ezekiel" <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
news:h9gdn3$bb5$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> wrote in message 
> news:h9g5kf$9u3$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Ezekiel" <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
>> news:h9g35i$gq4$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:h9g293$4ch$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
>>>> I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
>>>> "Ezekiel" <not-there@the-zeke.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:h9ft25$vb8$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>>>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the 
>>>>>> general
>>>>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>>>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>>>>> statistical inferences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>>>>> report.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be 
>>>>> measured.
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.
>>>
>>> Fine... so Linux has a sale price of $0.00.  So what share/percentage of 
>>> the market is buying into Linux for $0 versus the percentage of the 
>>> market that's using other OS's or products?
>>
>> Linux isn't sold into a market, hence market share numbers for it have no
>> meaning.
>>
>>> Feel free to explain how Firefox (also free/$0) can have a marketshare 
>>> and why CBS nighlty news (also free/$0) is losing marketshare to it's 
>>> competitors.
>>
>> Firefox has a user base, not a market share.   Neither IE nor Firefox are
>> sold, hence neither have any market share.  Only user base.
>>
>> -- 
>> "I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
>> I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger
>>
>>
>
> Yawwwnnnn.  You can play your little semantic games all you want

I'm not playing any games.

> and call it "user base", "user share", "market penetration", "market 
> share", "usage base" or whatever else you want to call it.

Those terms are not interchangeable!

> But in the end it all boils down to the same thing - what percentage of 
> people are using X versus the percentage of people using Y.

Which is not expressed by market share!

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 6:39:36 PM
"Moshe Goldfarb" <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:h9gdcs$7s2$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:22:00 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door
>>>> and make you install a free copy of Linux?
>>>
>>> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
>>> Linux install gone amok.
>>
>> Looking for a free lunch?
>
> Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
> me.

You must be pretty nasty given that even a polar bear wouldn't touch you! 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 6:41:04 PM
"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message 
news:2henb5tl05pm9ens63vls43mdsnuh085oh@4ax.com...
> Rotten Apple wrote:
>
>>"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>
>>>>"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Market share is sales.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong.
>>>>
>>>>Really?
>>>
>>> Really.
>>>
>>>>Markets don't sell things?
>>>
>>> Lemons are not fruits?
>>
>>How is that an answer to my question?
>
> It's not.

Of course it's not!

> It helps illustrate your idiocy for asking your stupid question.

No, you're only making a fool of yourself.

> Just because all lemons are fruits, does not mean that all fruits are
> lemons.
>
> Similarly, just because markets sell things, does not mean that all
> things in a market are sold.

Yes it does.   Markets exist to sell things.    Things which are not sold 
are not in markets.

>>>>What do you think market share is?
>>>
>>> The share of the market.
>>
>>The share of the market that gives things away for free?
>
> Some things in this market are free, yes.

Which market?   What seller is giving things away for free?

>>When did they start that market?
>
> A long time ago.  Where have you been?

Outside of your imaginary world where your imaginary market is.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/market

market
Pronunciation [mahr-kit]

-noun 1.an open place or a covered building where buyers and sellers convene 
for the sale of goods; a marketplace: a farmers' market.

2.a store for the sale of food: a meat market.

3.a meeting of people for selling and buying.

4.the assemblage of people at such a meeting.

5.trade or traffic, esp. as regards a particular commodity: the market in 
cotton.

6.a body of persons carrying on extensive transactions in a specified 
commodity: the cotton market.

7.the field of trade or business: the best shoes in the market.

8.demand for a commodity: an unprecedented market for leather.

9.a body of existing or potential buyers for specific goods or services: the 
health-food market.

10.a region in which goods and services are bought, sold, or used: the 
foreign market; the New England market.

11.current price or value: a rising market for shoes.

12.stock market.

-verb (used without object) 13.to buy or sell in a market; deal.
14.to buy food and provisions for the home.

-verb (used with object) 15.to carry or send to market for disposal: to 
market produce every week.
16.to dispose of in a market; sell.

-Idioms17.at the market, at the prevailing price in the open market.

18.in the market for, ready to buy; interested in buying: I'm in the market 
for a new car.

19.on the market, for sale; available: Fresh asparagus will be on the market 
this week.

-- 
"I never mentioned that I couldn't afford to buy a Mac.
I said I couldn't afford to buy any computer." -- Dave Fritzinger 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 6:49:01 PM
Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:22:00 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door
>>>> and make you install a free copy of Linux?
>>> 
>>> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
>>> Linux install gone amok.
>> 
>> Looking for a free lunch?
> 
> Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
> me.

Really? The bears are certainly burning a lot of fat when travelling 
between arctic and antartica
-- 
Any idiot can run XP. And usually does.

0
9/24/2009 6:54:03 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:28:02 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote
(in article <slrnhbmsv2.pnh.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):

> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:27:57 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>> (in article <h9f3hb$pni$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>>>> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>>>>> open 
>>>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync 
>>>>>> it 
>>>>>> to 
>>>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>>>> 
>>>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>>>> 
>>>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
>>> 
>>> Hahaha!
>>> 
>>> Yea, I suppose...
>>> 
>>> Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different
>>> players and the iPod sets the standard. It really does.
>> 
>> There are two classes of music player buyers who don't buy iPods: The 
>> incredibly cheap and the Apple haters who would rather cut their noses off 
>> to 
> 
> ...because it just isn't possible that there is some actual reason that
> someone might choose something other than the "one true brand".
> 
> The Lemming mentality in action.
> 
> [deletia]
> 
> People who use other products are simply willing to consider other products.

Problem is, that anybody who chooses these other products is choosing them 
because of one of the two above reasons. They're pretty much all inclusive. 
It's either based on cost or anti-Apple sentiment. Why else would someone buy 
an inferior product?

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 6:56:29 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:41:04 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:

> "Moshe Goldfarb" <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
> news:h9gdcs$7s2$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:22:00 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door
>>>>> and make you install a free copy of Linux?
>>>>
>>>> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
>>>> Linux install gone amok.
>>>
>>> Looking for a free lunch?
>>
>> Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
>> me.
> 
> You must be pretty nasty given that even a polar bear wouldn't touch you!

They are my brothers, along with the albatross and the
whales....
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 6:58:02 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:40:43 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
(in article <h9feqo$rnj$1@news.eternal-september.org>):

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:34:25 -0500, RonB wrote:
> 
>> RonB wrote:
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Yeah, you get what you pay for. 
>>> 
>>> Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap 
>>> Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell 
>>> it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what 
>>> they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.
>> 
>> And here's why iPODs are "worth more" than other MP3 players...
>> 
>> http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14915
>> 
>>>> 
>> Apple's iPods are made by mainly female workers who earn as little as 
>> �27 per month, according to a report in the Mail on Sunday yesterday.
> 
> Yea...
> And so are Nike sneakers, designer clothes, tires, brake pads
> etc,.......

And every other portable music player sold, including the zunes. Not a valid 
argument for or against any brand. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 6:59:50 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:54:03 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:

> Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:22:00 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door
>>>>> and make you install a free copy of Linux?
>>>> 
>>>> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
>>>> Linux install gone amok.
>>> 
>>> Looking for a free lunch?
>> 
>> Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
>> me.
> 
> Really? The bears are certainly burning a lot of fat when travelling 
> between arctic and antartica

Heee heee!
Good "catch"....

I didn't think you freetards would pick up on that one.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 7:00:07 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:11:37 -0700, Rick wrote
(in article <QbOdnXmN7P5E2CbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com>):

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>> 
>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>> 
>>> The license.
>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>> needed to install.
>>> Generated file sizes.
>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>> Price
>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>> license?
>> 
>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
>> Office files, it's not 100%. 
> 
> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with 
> each other.
> 
> 

You can say that again! While you're right, it's fodder for another subject. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 7:02:07 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:54:03 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:

> Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:22:00 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door
>>>>> and make you install a free copy of Linux?
>>>> 
>>>> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
>>>> Linux install gone amok.
>>> 
>>> Looking for a free lunch?
>> 
>> Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
>> me.
> 
> Really? The bears are certainly burning a lot of fat when travelling 
> between arctic and antartica

Heee heee!
Good "catch"....

I didn't think you freetards would pick up on that one.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 7:03:43 PM
Fa-groon stated in post 0001HW.C6E1103F0009FE02F01846D8@news.giganews.com on
9/24/09 12:02 PM:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:11:37 -0700, Rick wrote
> (in article <QbOdnXmN7P5E2CbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com>):
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>>> 
>>>> The license.
>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>>> needed to install.
>>>> Generated file sizes.
>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>>> Price
>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>>> license?
>>> 
>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
>>> Office files, it's not 100%.
>> 
>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>> each other.
>> 
>> 
> 
> You can say that again! While you're right, it's fodder for another subject.
> 
The two current versions of MS Office, 2007 and 2008, are quite compatible.
Far more than the current version of OpenOffice is with either.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 7:06:18 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:03:36 -0700, Rick wrote
(in article <QbOdnXyN7P5l3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com>):

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:48 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:11:51 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote (in article
>> <slrnhblorn.2u4.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):
>> 
>>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote (in article
>>>> <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>> 
>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote (in article
>>>>>> <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits
>>>>>>>> my be cut into, however
>>>>>>>> slightly.
>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get
>>>>>>> us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free
>>>>> (like software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free
>>>>> beer).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>>> point about
>>>> about free software.
>>> 
>>> You don't even want to go there...
>>> 
>>> Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> I'd say that you were giving MS a lot of credit. How about  Microsoft:
>> the Old Milwaukee of operating systems? or  Microsoft: the Brown Derby
>> of operating systems? Or, if we want to go really bad, perhaps
>> Microsoft: the Coors Light of operating systems? Coors Light. Now
>> there's a redundancy.
> 
> Maybe you should get some Coors from Out West?

I've had it, thank you. Regular Coors is so light that it has almost no 
flavor and Coors Light has less than no flavor. Like the Brits say: Drinking 
Coors is like making love in the bottom of a canoe: f_ _king close to water. 
8^)

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 7:10:06 PM
Rick <none@nomail.com> writes:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>> 
>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>> 
>>> The license.
>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>> needed to install.
>>> Generated file sizes.
>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>> Price
>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>> license?
>> 
>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
>> Office files, it's not 100%. 
>
> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with 
> each other.

You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether you
like it or not.
0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 7:11:08 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:10:06 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:03:36 -0700, Rick wrote
> (in article <QbOdnXyN7P5l3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com>):
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:48 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:11:51 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote (in article
>>> <slrnhblorn.2u4.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):
>>> 
>>>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote (in article
>>>>> <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote (in article
>>>>>>> <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits
>>>>>>>>> my be cut into, however
>>>>>>>>> slightly.
>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get
>>>>>>>> us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free
>>>>>> (like software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free
>>>>>> beer).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>>>> point about
>>>>> about free software.
>>>> 
>>>> You don't even want to go there...
>>>> 
>>>> Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> I'd say that you were giving MS a lot of credit. How about  Microsoft:
>>> the Old Milwaukee of operating systems? or  Microsoft: the Brown Derby
>>> of operating systems? Or, if we want to go really bad, perhaps
>>> Microsoft: the Coors Light of operating systems? Coors Light. Now
>>> there's a redundancy.
>> 
>> Maybe you should get some Coors from Out West?
> 
> I've had it, thank you. Regular Coors is so light that it has almost no 
> flavor and Coors Light has less than no flavor. Like the Brits say: Drinking 
> Coors is like making love in the bottom of a canoe: f_ _king close to water. 
> 8^)

I went to the factory in Colorado once when out there on
business.
It doesn't taste any better there.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 7:12:12 PM
Hadron stated in post h9gg8e$d23$4@news.eternal-september.org on 9/24/09
12:11 PM:

> Rick <none@nomail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>>> 
>>>> The license.
>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>>> needed to install.
>>>> Generated file sizes.
>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>>> Price
>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>>> license?
>>> 
>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
>>> Office files, it's not 100%.
>> 
>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>> each other.
> 
> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether you
> like it or not.

Rick is not happy I have shown such things as:

Poor cropping in Writer:

    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/fullOfCrop.mov>

Poorly done styles when used with lists:

    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>

Poor compatibility:

    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp/>
    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp2/>


All Rick can respond with is that MS Office for DOS would not work well
either.  :)

-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 7:15:03 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:11:08 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> Rick <none@nomail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>>> 
>>>> The license.
>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>>> needed to install.
>>>> Generated file sizes.
>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>>> Price
>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>>> license?
>>> 
>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
>>> Office files, it's not 100%. 
>>
>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with 
>> each other.
> 
> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether you
> like it or not.

You will never convince these radical Linux freetards.

It's like trying to convert a Jehovah's Witness to Islam.
0
moshegoldfarb (3146)
9/24/2009 7:15:35 PM
On 2009-09-24, Ezekiel <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> "RonB" <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:h9g782$hmg$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>
>>> My mp3 player isn't some sad attempt to make my friends and neighbors 
>>> jealous.
>>
>> That's what it seems to come down to. "I paid more for my iPOD MP3 player 
>> than you paid for non-iPOD MP3 player. Neener, neener, neener."
>
> If that's what your understanding of the thread is then perhaps you need 
> some remedial reading lessons.

    Not at all. There were a number of very blatant "you use something else
because you can't afford Apple" remarks remarks in there. There is also the
recurring use of the term "freetard".

>
>
>> Have I missed something, or don't they both play MP3s?
>
> So in your world all cameras are the same because they all take pictures. 
> And to you all cell phones are the same because they all make phone calls.

    For the intentionally ignorant consumer, that idea may not be too far
off from the truth actually.

-- 
       Unfortunately, the universe will not conform itself to 
your fantasies. You have to manage based on what really happens        |||
rather than what you would like to happen. This is true of personal   / | \
affairs, government and business.

0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 7:18:40 PM
On 2009-09-24, Ignoramus2699 <ignoramus2699@NOSPAM.2699.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> On 2009-09-24, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus2699 wrote:
>>
>>> On my Ubuntu Jaunty desktop at home, Flash plays awfully -- with
>>> terrible stuttering -- because of very shitty OpenGL
>>> support. Apparently, most other Linux players use XVideo, which works
>>> very reliably, but for some reason that I did not fully understand,
>>> Flash uses OpenGL, which never really worked well. 
>>
>> I'm sorry. My CentOS 5.3, with an Intel graphics card, runs Flash just 
>> fine. I watch TV shows and movies on Hulu all the time. What video chip 
>> are you using?
>>
>
> A better question would be, what Flash are you using? This is mostly
> the issue of Flash 10 not working right.

    I dunno. I run Flash 10 and Ubuntu 9.04 and an nv8400.

    I can also test on an nv7100, i945 and nv9400.

    There's also a headless machine around here that runs some ATI chipset.

>
> Nevertheless, here's my card information. It is not really
> determinative of the issue. The issue is Flash 10 and, possibly, other
> OS components.
>
> Home:
> 02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G72 [GeForce 7300 LE] (rev a1)
>
> Work:
> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation Quadro NVS 290 (rev a1)
>
> Laptop:
> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)
>
> i


-- 
       Unfortunately, the universe will not conform itself to 
your fantasies. You have to manage based on what really happens        |||
rather than what you would like to happen. This is true of personal   / | \
affairs, government and business.

0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 7:20:36 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:12:12 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
(in article <h9gga9$28d$1@news.eternal-september.org>):

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:10:06 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:03:36 -0700, Rick wrote
>> (in article <QbOdnXyN7P5l3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:48 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:11:51 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote (in article
>>>> <slrnhblorn.2u4.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote (in article
>>>>>> <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote (in article
>>>>>>>> <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits
>>>>>>>>>> my be cut into, however
>>>>>>>>>> slightly.
>>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get
>>>>>>>>> us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free
>>>>>>> (like software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free
>>>>>>> beer).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>>>>> point about
>>>>>> about free software.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You don't even want to go there...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> I'd say that you were giving MS a lot of credit. How about  Microsoft:
>>>> the Old Milwaukee of operating systems? or  Microsoft: the Brown Derby
>>>> of operating systems? Or, if we want to go really bad, perhaps
>>>> Microsoft: the Coors Light of operating systems? Coors Light. Now
>>>> there's a redundancy.
>>> 
>>> Maybe you should get some Coors from Out West?
>> 
>> I've had it, thank you. Regular Coors is so light that it has almost no 
>> flavor and Coors Light has less than no flavor. Like the Brits say: 
>> Drinking 
>> Coors is like making love in the bottom of a canoe: f_ _king close to 
>> water. 
>> 8^)
> 
> I went to the factory in Colorado once when out there on
> business.
> It doesn't taste any better there.

Well, when there are no ingredients other than snow melt....

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 7:22:56 PM
On 2009-09-24, Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:49:04 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> writes:
>> 
>>> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>>>>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>>>>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>>>>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.
>>>
>>> Poor hardware support?  My my.
>>>
>>> Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
>>> it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.
>> 
>> It's all well and good to sing Linux praises for what it is : a bloody
>> great OS - stable and secure.
>> 
>> But to talk such obvious bollox as above make you sound like a braying
>> jackass.
>> 
>> MS and Apple are far better supported with Modern HW. And no amount of
>> how you play your silly word games will change that.
>> 
>> Yes, Linux does install a lot easier on a lot of newish and older
>> HW. But to claim its driver support for modern HW is even a patch on the
>> two leading OSen is poppycock.
>
> Why do Linux users seem to have so many problems with Windows?
>
> The first question that should be asked is why did he buy dodgy
> hardware to begin with?
>
> Why?
>
> Because that's preciously the question the freetards ask when
> people complain of the lack of hardware support that Linux has.

    Give me a buzz when your chosen platform fully supports the HD-PVR.

    Yes I know I hammer that a bit too much but I ACTUALLY USE IT. This
isn't just something I picked up out of ether. MCE doesn't support it and
MacOS doesn't support it at all.

    There will probably be an HD DirecTivo by the time Microsoft gets 
around updating MCE.

    There's no shortage of other stuff either.

-- 
       Unfortunately, the universe will not conform itself to 
your fantasies. You have to manage based on what really happens        |||
rather than what you would like to happen. This is true of personal   / | \
affairs, government and business.

0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 7:23:05 PM
On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:28:02 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote
> (in article <slrnhbmsv2.pnh.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):
>
>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:27:57 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>>> (in article <h9f3hb$pni$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>>>>> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there an 
>>>>>>> open 
>>>>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and sync 
>>>>>>> it 
>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>>>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>>>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
>>>> 
>>>> Hahaha!
>>>> 
>>>> Yea, I suppose...
>>>> 
>>>> Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different
>>>> players and the iPod sets the standard. It really does.
>>> 
>>> There are two classes of music player buyers who don't buy iPods: The 
>>> incredibly cheap and the Apple haters who would rather cut their noses off 
>>> to 
>> 
>> ...because it just isn't possible that there is some actual reason that
>> someone might choose something other than the "one true brand".
>> 
>> The Lemming mentality in action.
>> 
>> [deletia]
>> 
>> People who use other products are simply willing to consider other products.
>
> Problem is, that anybody who chooses these other products is choosing them 
> because of one of the two above reasons. They're pretty much all inclusive. 
> It's either based on cost or anti-Apple sentiment. Why else would someone buy 
> an inferior product?

    The Lemming mentality in action here...

-- 
       Unfortunately, the universe will not conform itself to 
your fantasies. You have to manage based on what really happens        |||
rather than what you would like to happen. This is true of personal   / | \
affairs, government and business.

0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 7:28:49 PM
Moshe Goldfarb stated in post h9gggk$34q$1@news.eternal-september.org on
9/24/09 12:15 PM:

>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>>> each other.
>> 
>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
>> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
>> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
>> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
>> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
>> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
>> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
>> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
>> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether you
>> like it or not.
> 
> You will never convince these radical Linux freetards.
> 
> It's like trying to convert a Jehovah's Witness to Islam.

Same form of herd mentality in both cases.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 7:35:45 PM
On Sep 24, 1:12=A0pm, Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:10:06 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> > On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:03:36 -0700, Rick wrote
> > (in article <QbOdnXyN7P5l3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4...@supernews.com>):
>
> >> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:48 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>
> >>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:11:51 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote (in article
> >>> <slrnhblorn.2u4.j...@nomad.mishnet>):
>
> >>>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-gr...@mad.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote (in article
> >>>>> <h9ei8e$km...@news.eternal-september.org>):
>
> >>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote (in artic=
le
> >>>>>>> <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdn...@giganews.com>):
>
> >>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <d...@cooper.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
> >>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
> >>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic prof=
its
> >>>>>>>>> my be cut into, however
> >>>>>>>>> slightly.
> >>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, i=
t
> >>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will =
get
> >>>>>>>> us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>
> >>>>>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>
> >>>>>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free
> >>>>>> (like software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free
> >>>>>> beer).
>
> >>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
> >>>>> point about
> >>>>> about free software.
>
> >>>> You don't even want to go there...
>
> >>>> Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.
>
> >>> I'd say that you were giving MS a lot of credit. How about =A0Microso=
ft:
> >>> the Old Milwaukee of operating systems? or =A0Microsoft: the Brown De=
rby
> >>> of operating systems? Or, if we want to go really bad, perhaps
> >>> Microsoft: the Coors Light of operating systems? Coors Light. Now
> >>> there's a redundancy.
>
> >> Maybe you should get some Coors from Out West?
>
> > I've had it, thank you. Regular Coors is so light that it has almost no
> > flavor and Coors Light has less than no flavor. Like the Brits say: Dri=
nking
> > Coors is like making love in the bottom of a canoe: f_ _king close to w=
ater.
> > 8^)
>
> I went to the factory in Colorado once when out there on
> business.
> It doesn't taste any better there.

Not the light beer... I live near "the factory"... and while they do
have some really good stuff available their "light" sucks no matter
where you drink it.  If it was any lighter it would float away...
"redundancy" doesn't begin to cover it. IMO some of their seasonal
stuff (only available locally, apparently) rivals any good
microbrewery beer out there.

0
fretwizz (2823)
9/24/2009 7:37:33 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:36:54 -0700, Snit wrote:

> There is more to a device than *what* it does... there is also how well
> and the UI.

Very true -- and the Cowon and iRiver MP3 players do it better than iPods.

0
miller (482)
9/24/2009 7:44:53 PM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> On 2009-09-23, Matt <matt@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried. Witness 
>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash 
>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into, however 
>>>> slightly.
>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows.
>>
>> ... implying they won't be able to pay for development of new products.
> 
> You are "getting it".
> 
>> Clearly they are already making less per copy: numbers of new computers 
>> sold have been growing more or shrinking less than Windows revenues the 
>> past three quarters.
> 
> Yep, and the reason to this is that there are alternatives, of varying
> degree of attractiveness (depending on the consumer).
> 
> i


And application programmers will have to accommodate users of the 
alternatives, leading to greater utility and acceptance and use of the 
alternatives, leading to a greater need for application programmers to 
program for the alternatives, etc.
0
matt281 (1555)
9/24/2009 7:51:52 PM
J G Miller stated in post pan.2009.09.24.19.44.33@yoyo.ORG on 9/24/09 12:44
PM:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:36:54 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> There is more to a device than *what* it does... there is also how well
>> and the UI.
> 
> Very true -- and the Cowon and iRiver MP3 players do it better than iPods.
> 
Could be.  I know little about any of the devices.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 7:55:12 PM
"J G Miller" <miller@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message 
news:pan.2009.09.24.19.44.33@yoyo.ORG...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:36:54 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>> There is more to a device than *what* it does... there is also how well
>> and the UI.
>
> Very true -- and the Cowon and iRiver MP3 players do it better than iPods.
>

Depends what "it" is that you're looking for. If you want an MP3 player that 
will seemlessly integrate with the audio system in your car then iPod is the 
way to go:

   http://www.apple.com/ipod/car-integration/

Notice the *dozens* of auto makers that support the iPod meaning that it's 
more then just plugging the headphone jack into the "aux" or "line-in" 
connector on the stereo. You can fully control the iPod from the steering 
wheel which is something that iRiver or Cowon doesn't do.

And if you're in the need for 3rd party accessories then how many different 
manufacturers make "sound docks" and etc. that are compatible with iPods. 
The *best* that you'll be able to do with iRiver of Cowon is to find some 
generic device that you can plug it in to.



0
not-zeke (902)
9/24/2009 7:57:35 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:

> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per week,
> so it is a good number that we can use to make various statistical
> inferences.
> 
> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system report.
> 
> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
> 
> Market Share Percentage
> 
> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%    
> 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux   
>        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
> 
> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
> of all, by over 3x in one year.
> 
> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth rate
> should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too small
> to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to adopt.
> This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at a slower
> pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
> 
> i

There is one question about the numbers. The Linux figures, especially 
for last year, look too low.

I suspect this is due to HOW Google analytics measured the "market 
share." The majority of Linux is free, so how do you gather the numbers 
for market share?

-- 
======== Tecknomage ========
Computer Systems Specialist
     IT Technician
     San Diego, CA
0
tecknode1 (6)
9/24/2009 7:58:09 PM
Some tit forging "chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote 
news:2henb5tl05pm9ens63vls43mdsnuh085oh@4ax.com...
> Rotten Apple wrote:
>
>>"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>
>>>>"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Market share is sales.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong.
>>>>
>>>>Really?
>>>
>>> Really.
>>>
>>>>Markets don't sell things?
>>>
>>> Lemons are not fruits?
>>
>>How is that an answer to my question?
>
> It's not.  It helps illustrate your idiocy for asking your stupid
> question.
>
> Just because all lemons are fruits, does not mean that all fruits are
> lemons.
>
> Similarly, just because markets sell things, does not mean that all
> things in a market are sold.
>
>>>>What do you think market share is?
>>>
>>> The share of the market.
>>
>>The share of the market that gives things away for free?
>
> Some things in this market are free, yes.
>
>>When did they start that market?
>
> A long time ago.  Where have you been?
>

<to the OP>
Ignore the forger! 






































0
chrisv (22840)
9/24/2009 8:01:14 PM
In article <h9ejs9$179$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
 Myram <myram@ldkfjlsdkfjsf.com> wrote:

> On 09/23/2009 08:54 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
> > On 2009-09-23, Van Chocstraw<boobooililililil@roadrunner.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> >>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> >>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> > [deletia]
> >>> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
> >>> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
> >>> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
> >>>
> >>> i
> >>
> >> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about
> >> MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
> >
> >     If you can't afford $600 on a Mac then you can't afford a decent PC 
> >     either.
> 
> And if you can afford a $600 Mac, you can afford a top quality bombshell 
> PC: triple core processor, 4 GB DDR3 RAM, 600 GB HD, as much RAM on the 
> video card as you have on the whole Mini, you name it.

You're a computer enthusiast. You care about that stuff. The mainstream 
consumer market largely doesn't, and is much larger than the enthusiast 
market.

> And instead of getting a phoney made in China lowest bidder mobo, you'll 
> get a mobo with a name on it and all the specs.
> 
> Take a look at NewEgg's prices...

-- 
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
0
znu (10395)
9/24/2009 8:08:12 PM
Fa-groon wrote:

> Problem is, that anybody who chooses these other products is choosing them 
> because of one of the two above reasons. They're pretty much all inclusive. 
> It's either based on cost or anti-Apple sentiment. Why else would someone buy 
> an inferior product?

An insight into the cultist's thought processes. First claim the Apple 
iPOD is superior, then "logically" that there can only be two reasons 
why anyone wouldn't buy it. But what if the iPOD is not superior? What 
if it just has a shiner logo and more sale's hype?

Open your mind. Dare to think for yourself.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 8:10:57 PM
Fa-groon wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:40:43 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
> (in article <h9feqo$rnj$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:34:25 -0500, RonB wrote:
>>
>>> RonB wrote:
>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, you get what you pay for. 
>>>> Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap 
>>>> Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell 
>>>> it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what 
>>>> they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.
>>> And here's why iPODs are "worth more" than other MP3 players...
>>>
>>> http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14915
>>>
>>> Apple's iPods are made by mainly female workers who earn as little as 
>>> �27 per month, according to a report in the Mail on Sunday yesterday.
>> Yea...
>> And so are Nike sneakers, designer clothes, tires, brake pads
>> etc,.......
> 
> And every other portable music player sold, including the zunes. Not a valid 
> argument for or against any brand. 

The point is that, the iPODs, like most other gadgets, are made in 
Chinese sweat shops. Just because it has more sale's hype and a fancier 
logo then the other MP3 players, doesn't make it a superior product. Or 
are you the kind who also buys Nike tennis shoes for the logo?

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 8:13:42 PM
In article <-badnXGQ05vO4ibXnZ2dnUVZ_ixi4p2d@giganews.com>,
 Stephan Rose <nomail@nomail.invalid> wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:27:57 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> > 
> >> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote (in article
> >> <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
> >> 
> >>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there
> >>>> an open
> >>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and
> >>>> sync it to
> >>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
> >>> 
> >>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as iTunes
> >>> or Media Monkey for Windows.
> >>> 
> >>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match. They prefer
> >>> other brands of music players in general.
> >> 
> >> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
> > 
> > Hahaha!
> > 
> > Yea, I suppose...
> > 
> > Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different players and
> > the iPod sets the standard. It really does.
> > 
> > If all you are going to do is dump some music to a player and shuffle
> > the songs, I would say to save your money and buy something like Sansa
> > etc.
> > 
> > However, if you are an enthusiast and want to interface the player with
> > your car *fully*, not just via an Aux jack, or you are looking for
> > accessories, it's all iPod, and oddly Zune.
> 
> Or, instead of having a fucking iPod dangling from your radio (which is 
> just begging to have your car broken into and be stolen), you can just go 
> out and buy a radio with an USB port. Then all you need is a USB memory 
> stick which costs a whole lot less than what an iPod costs, copy your 
> music on it, and plug it in your radio!
> 
> Works *wonderfully* and I don't need frigging iTunes or an overpriced 
> iPod.

So that will automatically sync my playlists and share with my portable 
player and my computer what podcast episodes I've listened to?

-- 
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
0
znu (10395)
9/24/2009 8:14:37 PM
Rotten Apple wrote:

>> It helps illustrate your idiocy for asking your stupid question.
>
>No, you're only making a fool of yourself.

LOL

>(verbose idiocy snipped)

0
chrisv (22840)
9/24/2009 8:15:25 PM
RonB stated in post h9gjtm$19t$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/24/09 1:13
PM:

> Fa-groon wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:40:43 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>> (in article <h9feqo$rnj$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:34:25 -0500, RonB wrote:
>>> 
>>>> RonB wrote:
>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, you get what you pay for.
>>>>> Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap
>>>>> Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell
>>>>> it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what
>>>>> they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.
>>>> And here's why iPODs are "worth more" than other MP3 players...
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14915
>>>> 
>>>> Apple's iPods are made by mainly female workers who earn as little as
>>>> �27 per month, according to a report in the Mail on Sunday yesterday.
>>> Yea...
>>> And so are Nike sneakers, designer clothes, tires, brake pads
>>> etc,.......
>> 
>> And every other portable music player sold, including the zunes. Not a valid
>> argument for or against any brand.
> 
> The point is that, the iPODs, like most other gadgets, are made in
> Chinese sweat shops. Just because it has more sale's hype and a fancier
> logo then the other MP3 players, doesn't make it a superior product. Or
> are you the kind who also buys Nike tennis shoes for the logo?

Has *anyone* said iPods are superior based on the logo or the hype?  Anyone?

I bet not... not in CSMA/COLA anyway.

You just are making things up.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 8:15:45 PM
Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
> statistical inferences. 
> 
> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
> report. 
> 
> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
> 
> Market Share Percentage 
> 
> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change
> Windows        93.00%     86.37%   Down 7.5%
> Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74%  
> Linux           0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
> 
> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
> of all, by over 3x in one year. 
> 
> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
> rate should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too
> small to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
> 
> i

So what are the other .44% using? MSDOS? Chrome OS?
0
9/24/2009 8:15:50 PM
Peter K�hlmann wrote:

> mentally-ill troll wrote:
>> 
>> Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
>> me.
>
>Really? The bears are certainly burning a lot of fat when travelling 
>between arctic and antartica

Hehe.  The troll was caught in yet another lie!   8)

0
chrisv (22840)
9/24/2009 8:16:52 PM
Chuck stated in post h9gk1m$1tm$2@news.eternal-september.org on 9/24/09 1:15
PM:

> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>> statistical inferences.
>> 
>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>> report. 
>> 
>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>> 
>> Market Share Percentage
>> 
>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change
>> Windows        93.00%     86.37%   Down 7.5%
>> Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74%
>> Linux           0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>> 
>> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
>> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
>> of all, by over 3x in one year.
>> 
>> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
>> rate should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too
>> small to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
>> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
>> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
>> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
>> 
>> i
> 
> So what are the other .44% using? MSDOS? Chrome OS?

GS/OS.  :)


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 8:16:54 PM
Ignoramus2699 wrote:

> A better question would be, what Flash are you using? This is mostly
> the issue of Flash 10 not working right.

I'm just using the version compiled for CentOS at RPMForge. Currently 
version 10.0.32.

> Nevertheless, here's my card information. It is not really
> determinative of the issue. The issue is Flash 10 and, possibly, other
> OS components.
> 
> Home:
> 02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G72 [GeForce 7300 LE] (rev a1)
> 
> Work:
> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation Quadro NVS 290 (rev a1)
> 
> Laptop:
> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)

Both my laptop and desktop use a similar Intel graphics chip as your laptop.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 8:17:12 PM
On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:03:36 -0700, Rick wrote
> (in article <QbOdnXyN7P5l3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com>):
>
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:48 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:11:51 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote (in article
>>> <slrnhblorn.2u4.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):
>>> 
>>>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote (in article
>>>>> <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote (in article
>>>>>>> <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
[deletia]
>>> I'd say that you were giving MS a lot of credit. How about  Microsoft:
>>> the Old Milwaukee of operating systems? or  Microsoft: the Brown Derby
>>> of operating systems? Or, if we want to go really bad, perhaps
>>> Microsoft: the Coors Light of operating systems? Coors Light. Now
>>> there's a redundancy.
>> 
>> Maybe you should get some Coors from Out West?
>
> I've had it, thank you. Regular Coors is so light that it has almost no 
> flavor and Coors Light has less than no flavor. Like the Brits say: Drinking 
> Coors is like making love in the bottom of a canoe: f_ _king close to water. 
> 8^)
>

....they used to give that sort of stuff to bums in England back in the day.


-- 
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
                                                                  |||
	                                                         / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 8:17:30 PM
"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message 
news:upknb59d8dfd57p3chcqv0aucd5nu6davt@4ax.com...
> Rotten Apple wrote:
>
>>> It helps illustrate your idiocy for asking your stupid question.
>>
>>No, you're only making a fool of yourself.
>
> LOL
>
>>(verbose idiocy snipped)

The definition of market is verbose stupidity?

The whole thread is public record, and it doesn't reflect on you well at 
all. 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 8:18:12 PM
On 2009-09-24, Hadron <hadronquark@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rick <none@nomail.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>>> 
>>>> The license.
>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>>> needed to install.
>>>> Generated file sizes.
>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>>> Price
>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>>> license?
>>> 
>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
>>> Office files, it's not 100%. 
>>
>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with 
>> each other.
>
> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the

     Not at all. Open Office is not necessarily any worse than the
"real thing". Infact, if you manage to encounter some msoffice 
related problem, the first thing that anyone will assume is that 
you are having one of these intra-version sorts of problems. It
will never occur to them that you might be using a different product
entirely.

[deletia]

    The reality "on the ground" is that msoffice end users don't even
expect complete compatability out of different copies of msoffice.

-- 
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
                                                                  |||
	                                                         / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 8:20:07 PM
"Moshe Goldfarb" <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:h9gfjk$rfm$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:54:03 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>
>> Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:22:00 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door
>>>>>> and make you install a free copy of Linux?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
>>>>> Linux install gone amok.
>>>>
>>>> Looking for a free lunch?
>>>
>>> Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
>>> me.
>>
>> Really? The bears are certainly burning a lot of fat when travelling
>> between arctic and antartica
>
> Heee heee!
> Good "catch"....
>
> I didn't think you freetards would pick up on that one.

Because a zoo would never have both polar bears and penguins, right?

We should accept talking polar bears but insist on geographical accuracy? 


0
rotten (2093)
9/24/2009 8:20:43 PM
On 2009-09-24, Ezekiel <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> "J G Miller" <miller@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message 
> news:pan.2009.09.24.19.44.33@yoyo.ORG...
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:36:54 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>
>>> There is more to a device than *what* it does... there is also how well
>>> and the UI.
>>
>> Very true -- and the Cowon and iRiver MP3 players do it better than iPods.
>>
>
> Depends what "it" is that you're looking for. If you want an MP3 player that 
> will seemlessly integrate with the audio system in your car then iPod is the 
> way to go:

     My car isn't limited to an ipod in that respect.

     Don't be such a "freetard".

[deletia]

     Mebbe they will start up that "cash for clunkers" program again
and you can turn in your 86 pontiac for something a bit more modern.

-- 
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
                                                                  |||
	                                                         / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 8:21:26 PM
JEDIDIAH wrote:

>     Not at all. There were a number of very blatant "you use something else
> because you can't afford Apple" remarks remarks in there. There is also the
> recurring use of the term "freetard".

Yep. Still don't know why an iPOD is supposedly "superior" to another 
MP3 player -- they both play MP3s and video clips. What is it, exactly, 
that iPOD does that another MP3 player can't do? -- besides sport a 
sleek Apple logo on their Chinese sweat shop device?

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 8:21:48 PM
In article <h9ejr8$vbv$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
 RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

> K�hlmann is 'The Joker", a joke. wrote:
> > Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> > 
> > <snipped>
> > 
> > The only thing that's going to happen if Linux ever becomes a main stay 
> > is that it's going to be exposed for the Swiss cheese and Flying 
> > Dutchman that it is in waiting, as the malware writers attack it more 
> > and more.
> 
> But a big percentage of servers are already running Linux (and UNIX) -- 
> why aren't there more malware and virus attacks on these servers?

Regardless of operating system, servers tend to be better maintained and 
therefore more secure than end-user systems. A worm targeting only 
servers probably isn't going to be nearly as successful as one targeting 
end-user systems.

-- 
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
0
znu (10395)
9/24/2009 8:25:49 PM
On 2009-09-24, Chuck <chuckh1958_nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>> statistical inferences. 
>> 
>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>> report. 
>> 
>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>> 
>> Market Share Percentage 
>> 
>> OS           Last Year  This Year   Change
>> Windows        93.00%     86.37%   Down 7.5%
>> Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74%  
>> Linux           0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
>> 
>> The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
>> declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
>> of all, by over 3x in one year. 
>> 
>> If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth
>> rate should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too
>> small to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
>> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
>> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
>> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
>> 
>> i
>
> So what are the other .44% using? MSDOS? Chrome OS?

Mostly cellphones and other such things.

i
0
Ignoramus2699
9/24/2009 8:28:48 PM
In article <lbQum.51755$we1.10301@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com>,
 Tecknomage <tecknode@NOSAPM.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:46:39 -0500, Ignoramus8004 wrote:
> 
> > My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
> > get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
> > computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per week,
> > so it is a good number that we can use to make various statistical
> > inferences.
> > 
> > Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system report.
> > 
> > I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
> > 
> > Market Share Percentage
> > 
> > OS           Last Year  This Year   Change Windows        93.00%    
> > 86.37%   Down 7.5% Mac             5.97%     10.43%   Up    74% Linux   
> >        0.59%      1.82%   Up   208%
> > 
> > The obvious conclusions from this is that the Windows market share is
> > declining, Mac share is rising, and Linux share is rising the quickest
> > of all, by over 3x in one year.
> > 
> > If Linux manages to fix its bugs more efficiently, the Linux growth rate
> > should be even better. It is still small, but it is no longer too small
> > to ignore it. And, if it big enough that it cannot be ignored by
> > hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to adopt.
> > This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at a slower
> > pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
> > 
> > i
> 
> There is one question about the numbers. The Linux figures, especially 
> for last year, look too low.
> 
> I suspect this is due to HOW Google analytics measured the "market 
> share." The majority of Linux is free, so how do you gather the numbers 
> for market share?

Google Analytics is a web traffic analysis system; sales (or lack 
thereof) have no impact.

Incidentally, this technically means it's measuring something more like 
use share than market share. (Which is a more interesting number anyway, 
as far as I'm concerned.)

-- 
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
0
znu (10395)
9/24/2009 8:29:51 PM
In article <h9gkcu$6fu$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
 RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

> JEDIDIAH wrote:
> 
> >     Not at all. There were a number of very blatant "you use something else
> > because you can't afford Apple" remarks remarks in there. There is also the
> > recurring use of the term "freetard".
> 
> Yep. Still don't know why an iPOD is supposedly "superior" to another 
> MP3 player -- they both play MP3s and video clips. What is it, exactly, 
> that iPOD does that another MP3 player can't do? -- besides sport a 
> sleek Apple logo on their Chinese sweat shop device?

Mostly a bunch of UX-related stuff that COLA advocates deny the 
importance and/or existence of on principle.

-- 
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
0
znu (10395)
9/24/2009 8:31:38 PM
"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message 
news:slrnhbnhop.vqn.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2009-09-24, Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:49:04 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>>
>>> Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>>>>>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>>>>>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>>>>>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.
>>>>
>>>> Poor hardware support?  My my.
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
>>>> it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.
>>>
>>> It's all well and good to sing Linux praises for what it is : a bloody
>>> great OS - stable and secure.
>>>
>>> But to talk such obvious bollox as above make you sound like a braying
>>> jackass.
>>>
>>> MS and Apple are far better supported with Modern HW. And no amount of
>>> how you play your silly word games will change that.
>>>
>>> Yes, Linux does install a lot easier on a lot of newish and older
>>> HW. But to claim its driver support for modern HW is even a patch on the
>>> two leading OSen is poppycock.
>>
>> Why do Linux users seem to have so many problems with Windows?
>>
>> The first question that should be asked is why did he buy dodgy
>> hardware to begin with?
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Because that's preciously the question the freetards ask when
>> people complain of the lack of hardware support that Linux has.
>

>    Give me a buzz when your chosen platform fully supports the HD-PVR.

I've been recording full HD content on my XP based HTPC for several years 
now. Get your mentality out from the 1980's and get a clue to what people 
are actually doing with their computers.






0
not-zeke (902)
9/24/2009 8:38:47 PM
Rotten Apple wrote:

> 
> "Moshe Goldfarb" <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:h9gfjk$rfm$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:54:03 +0200, Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>
>>> Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:22:00 GMT, jellybean stonerfish wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:01:32 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your
>>>>>>> door and make you install a free copy of Linux?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than
>>>>>> a Linux install gone amok.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking for a free lunch?
>>>>
>>>> Penguins are pretty tasty from what my polar bear friends tell
>>>> me.
>>>
>>> Really? The bears are certainly burning a lot of fat when travelling
>>> between arctic and antartica
>>
>> Heee heee!
>> Good "catch"....
>>
>> I didn't think you freetards would pick up on that one.
> 
> Because a zoo would never have both polar bears and penguins, right?

Well, zoos tend to not feed their animals to other zoo animals

> We should accept talking polar bears but insist on geographical
> accuracy?

Flatfish claims to have accuracy in mind with his posts.

Well, he was quite near that "accuracy", as he meant "racist"
-- 
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
                -- Henry Spencer

0
9/24/2009 8:47:37 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:27:39 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:

> and why CBS nighlty news (also free/$0) is losing marketshare to it's
> competitors.

But that is where you are totally wrong.  CBS Nightly News is not free,
and furthermore it is not CBS Nightly News which is being sold.

What is being sold is an audience.  The product of commercial television
is the viewing audience for television commercials.  All other items
(the programs) are merely byproducts.
0
miller (482)
9/24/2009 9:08:03 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:09:49 -0500, Rotten Apple wrote:

> Linux isn't sold into a market, hence market share numbers for it have
> no meaning.

Red Hat and also Novell are effectively selling GNU/Linux into the
business market.

It is not really the price of the software, it it the price of the
support contract.
0
miller (482)
9/24/2009 9:13:40 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:02 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> I'd rather have him crap on my floor. It's easier to clean up than a
> Linux install gone amok.

Are you that mentally challenged that you cannot cleanly and fully install a
GNU/Linux system?
0
miller (482)
9/24/2009 9:15:46 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:31:41 -0500, Rotten Apple asked:

> What's going to run amok?

Instead of going to

<http://www.amok.am/en/freeware/amok_cd-dvd_burning/>

run brasero or k3b instead

0
miller (482)
9/24/2009 9:20:19 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:54:03 +0200, Peter Köhlmann wrote:

> Really? The bears are certainly burning a lot of fat when travelling
> between arctic and antartica

Not really, they travel Club Class with Icelandic Airways.

0
miller (482)
9/24/2009 9:21:55 PM
JEDIDIAH stated in post slrnhbnl3n.pqg.jedi@nomad.mishnet on 9/24/09 1:20
PM:

>>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>>>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with MS
>>>> Office files, it's not 100%.
>>> 
>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>>> each other.
>> 
>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
> 
>      Not at all. Open Office is not necessarily any worse than the
> "real thing". Infact, if you manage to encounter some msoffice
> related problem, the first thing that anyone will assume is that
> you are having one of these intra-version sorts of problems. It
> will never occur to them that you might be using a different product
> entirely.

Why not?  And if you are trying to do something with OpenOffice that it does
not handle well, then what?  An example is here:

    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
    <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>

> [deletia]
> 
>     The reality "on the ground" is that msoffice end users don't even
> expect complete compatability out of different copies of msoffice.

They pretty much do.  And it works.

-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 9:26:15 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:11:51 -0400, JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote:

> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote
>> (in article <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote
>>>> (in article <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>>>
>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.  
>>>>>> Witness
>>>>>> their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their employees to bash
>>>>>> Linux. They are concerned their gigantic profits my be cut into,  
>>>>>> however
>>>>>> slightly.
>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it may
>>>>> be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will get us
>>>>> closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>
>>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>>>
>>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free (like
>>> software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free beer).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my point  
>> about
>> about free software.
>
>       You don't even want to go there...
>
>       Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.
>

Microsoft is the McDonald's of operating systems! ;)
0
nospam59 (11089)
9/24/2009 9:34:35 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:12:43 -0400, Rick <none@nomail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:55:03 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>> Rick stated in post QbOdnUeN7P4NRyfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
>> 9/23/09 7:33 PM:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
>>>> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>>>>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>>>>>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>>>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>>>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>>>>>> Vista 7.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to
>>>>>> "dupe" people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>>>>
>>>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>>>>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
>>>>> again be bitten?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is much the same thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard
>>>>
>>>> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.
>>>
>>> Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?
>>
>> Why reach back into the desktop Linux "pit"?
>
> It is not a pit. If you think of it as a viper pit, why do you still use
> it?
>
>> Sure, it has gotten better
>> - much better - but it is still a mishmash of inconsistent and poorly
>> followed UI standards
>
> Not really. Maybe one day you will understand that people like to be able
> to choose from KDE, Gnome, XFCE, and other environments.
>
> Maybe one day you will understand that KDE apps run in a KDE environment
> are, for the most part, consistent, and that Gnome/gtk apps run in a
> Gnome environment are, for the most part consistent, and that the ability
> to run an app that is written for one environment in another is a  
> benefit.
>
> And maybe one day you will understand that not all developers adhere to
> published UI guidelines.
>
> Maybe, but I doubt it.
>
>
>> and it still is not well supported by Adobe or
>> Apple or MS or other major software developers.
>
> So what? There is much more software support for the Windows platform
> than there is for the Mac platform.
>
>> Do you expect users to
>> keep testing it year after year hoping it gets better?
>
> I expect that most of the users do what I do... use it to work and play.
>
>> I hope they
>> do... and I hope (and believe) Linux will get better.
>
> Of course Linux systems will get better. Do you not hope Macs get better?
> Do you not hope Windows will get better?
>

I do not hope for Windows to get better. I hate the fact that I have to  
use it at work. I rather use a Mac or even Linux at work than this crap. :@
0
nospam59 (11089)
9/24/2009 9:47:05 PM
On 2009-09-24, ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> In article <h9ejs9$179$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
>  Myram <myram@ldkfjlsdkfjsf.com> wrote:
>
>> On 09/23/2009 08:54 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>> > On 2009-09-23, Van Chocstraw<boobooililililil@roadrunner.com>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>> >>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>> >>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the general
>> > [deletia]
>> >>> hardware manufacturers, websites etc, then it will be easier to
>> >>> adopt. This makes me optimistic that this trend will continue, but at
>> >>> a slower pace than is the hope of some Linux advocates.
>> >>>
>> >>> i
>> >>
>> >> Microsoft will do all it can to shutdown Linux. They can't do much about
>> >> MAC. MAC's prices keep IT out of reach for lots of people.
>> >
>> >     If you can't afford $600 on a Mac then you can't afford a decent PC 
>> >     either.
>> 
>> And if you can afford a $600 Mac, you can afford a top quality bombshell 
>> PC: triple core processor, 4 GB DDR3 RAM, 600 GB HD, as much RAM on the 
>> video card as you have on the whole Mini, you name it.
>
> You're a computer enthusiast. You care about that stuff. The mainstream 
> consumer market largely doesn't, and is much larger than the enthusiast 
> market.

    ZNU has twice said something I don't agree with.

    2 more and the apocalypse will begin!

[deletia]

-- 
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
                                                                  |||
	                                                         / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 9:50:14 PM
On 2009-09-24, ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> In article <h9gkcu$6fu$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
>  RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>> 
>> >     Not at all. There were a number of very blatant "you use something else
>> > because you can't afford Apple" remarks remarks in there. There is also the
>> > recurring use of the term "freetard".
>> 
>> Yep. Still don't know why an iPOD is supposedly "superior" to another 
>> MP3 player -- they both play MP3s and video clips. What is it, exactly, 
>> that iPOD does that another MP3 player can't do? -- besides sport a 
>> sleek Apple logo on their Chinese sweat shop device?
>
> Mostly a bunch of UX-related stuff that COLA advocates deny the 
> importance and/or existence of on principle.

UI stuff you mean? 

This assumes that the rest of the world is as if it were trapped in amber.


-- 
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
                                                                  |||
	                                                         / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 9:52:51 PM
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:10:06 -0400, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>  
wrote:

> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>
>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>>>
>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>
>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>>> Vista 7.
>>>
>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to "dupe"
>>> people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>
>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
>> again be bitten?
>>
>> It is much the same thing.
>
> ME was bad.  XP was pretty good... by SP2 at least.  Vista started off  
> bad
> and, well, no real reason to think it ever got much better.  Maybe Win 7
> will be decent. Sure... it will still have malware and the dreaded  
> registry,
> but overall might not be a bad OS.
>
>
>
I'm sorry but Vista is ME next generation. It's a horrible OS.
0
nospam59 (11089)
9/24/2009 9:53:14 PM
On 2009-09-24, Ezekiel <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message 
> news:slrnhbnhop.vqn.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2009-09-24, Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:49:04 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>>>>>>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>>>>>>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>>>>>>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Poor hardware support?  My my.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
>>>>> it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.
>>>>
>>>> It's all well and good to sing Linux praises for what it is : a bloody
>>>> great OS - stable and secure.
>>>>
>>>> But to talk such obvious bollox as above make you sound like a braying
>>>> jackass.
>>>>
>>>> MS and Apple are far better supported with Modern HW. And no amount of
>>>> how you play your silly word games will change that.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Linux does install a lot easier on a lot of newish and older
>>>> HW. But to claim its driver support for modern HW is even a patch on the
>>>> two leading OSen is poppycock.
>>>
>>> Why do Linux users seem to have so many problems with Windows?
>>>
>>> The first question that should be asked is why did he buy dodgy
>>> hardware to begin with?
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Because that's preciously the question the freetards ask when
>>> people complain of the lack of hardware support that Linux has.
>>
>
>>    Give me a buzz when your chosen platform fully supports the HD-PVR.
>
> I've been recording full HD content on my XP based HTPC for several years 

     PBS doesn't count.

> now. Get your mentality out from the 1980's and get a clue to what people 
> are actually doing with their computers.

     Now that you mention it, I am not sure that MCE even fully supports
the entire featureset of the HDHomeRun either.

-- 
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
                                                                  |||
	                                                         / | \
0
jedi (14753)
9/24/2009 9:54:34 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:13:52 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Rick stated in post QbOdnXmN7P5E2CbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
> 9/24/09 3:11 AM:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>>> 
>>>> The license.
>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>>> needed to install.
>>>> Generated file sizes.
>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>>> Price
>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>>> license?
>>> 
>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with
>>> MS Office files, it's not 100%.
>> 
>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>> each other.
> 
> Modern versions are pretty close to that.

Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with 
each other.


-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 9:56:50 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:18 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>>> each other.

Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with  
each other.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 9:57:45 PM
d4rkn1ght stated in post op.u0r6sr10yqqcxx@dark-knight.myhome.westell.com on
9/24/09 2:47 PM:

> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:12:43 -0400, Rick <none@nomail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:55:03 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> Rick stated in post QbOdnUeN7P4NRyfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
>>> 9/23/09 7:33 PM:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower on
>>>>> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>>>>>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>>>>>>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>>>>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows 7)
>>>>>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>>>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>>>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>>>>>>> Vista 7.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to
>>>>>>> "dupe" people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>>>>>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will
>>>>>> again be bitten?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is much the same thing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard
>>>>> 
>>>>> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?
>>> 
>>> Why reach back into the desktop Linux "pit"?
>> 
>> It is not a pit. If you think of it as a viper pit, why do you still use
>> it?
>> 
>>> Sure, it has gotten better
>>> - much better - but it is still a mishmash of inconsistent and poorly
>>> followed UI standards
>> 
>> Not really. Maybe one day you will understand that people like to be able
>> to choose from KDE, Gnome, XFCE, and other environments.
>> 
>> Maybe one day you will understand that KDE apps run in a KDE environment
>> are, for the most part, consistent, and that Gnome/gtk apps run in a
>> Gnome environment are, for the most part consistent, and that the ability
>> to run an app that is written for one environment in another is a
>> benefit.
>> 
>> And maybe one day you will understand that not all developers adhere to
>> published UI guidelines.
>> 
>> Maybe, but I doubt it.
>> 
>> 
>>> and it still is not well supported by Adobe or
>>> Apple or MS or other major software developers.
>> 
>> So what? There is much more software support for the Windows platform
>> than there is for the Mac platform.
>> 
>>> Do you expect users to
>>> keep testing it year after year hoping it gets better?
>> 
>> I expect that most of the users do what I do... use it to work and play.
>> 
>>> I hope they
>>> do... and I hope (and believe) Linux will get better.
>> 
>> Of course Linux systems will get better. Do you not hope Macs get better?
>> Do you not hope Windows will get better?
>> 
> 
> I do not hope for Windows to get better. I hate the fact that I have to
> use it at work. I rather use a Mac or even Linux at work than this crap. :@

My primary OS is OS X... curious what your concerns are with Windows.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 9:58:27 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:01:32 -0400, Rotten Apple <rotten@pple.com> wrote:

>
> "Moshe Goldfarb" <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:h9g3ad$i96$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:43:31 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:
>>
>>> "Ignoramus8004" <ignoramus8004@NOSPAM.8004.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:58OdnTJLcqyiCifXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> My website (algebra.com) is visited by many schoolchildren looking to
>>>> get math homework help. Which, I think, is representative of the  
>>>> general
>>>> computer user population. This year I get about 140,000 visits per
>>>> week, so it is a good number that we can use to make various
>>>> statistical inferences.
>>>>
>>>> Since I use Google analytics, I can use their operating system
>>>> report.
>>>>
>>>> I ran a report of last week, versus same week a year ago.
>>>>
>>>> Market Share Percentage
>>>
>>> Didn't you get the COLA memo???  Marketshare of Linux can't be  
>>> measured.
>>
>> Except when the numbers look favorable to Linux, then it *can*
>> be measured.
>>
>> It's just like "Linux is the kernel" vs "Linux is not just the
>> kernel".
>>
>> It depends upon which statement is better for Linux in a
>> particular discussion.
>>
>> Linux users have at least 500+ excuses for why Linux sucks.
>>
>> They call them distributions.
>
> So what?    Are you afraid a penguin is going to break down your door and
> make you install a free copy of Linux?
>

I rather throw apples and break the windows! ;)
0
nospam59 (11089)
9/24/2009 10:00:15 PM
Rick stated in post T6CdnWdH1tu_dibXnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 2:56 PM:

>>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>>>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with
>>>> MS Office files, it's not 100%.
>>> 
>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>>> each other.
>> 
>> Modern versions are pretty close to that.
> 
> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
> each other.

You sure get stuck in ruts!

The fact is if you look at the current versions of MS Office (2007 and 2008)
and even the previous versions (2003 and 2004), they are mostly compatible.
MS even provides converters for 2003 and 2004 to read the current file
format.  New features, of course, are not back ported.

Now compare those with the newest OpenOffice.  There is no doubt it is the
odd man out.

But you do get to point to Word for DOS and say it is not compatible.  Point
for Rick!

LOL!


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 10:01:01 PM
Rick stated in post T6CdnWZH1tvEdibXnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 2:57 PM:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:06:18 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>>>> each other.
> 
> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
> each other.

Ah, Rick has another mantra.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 10:01:15 PM
d4rkn1ght stated in post op.u0r6200hyqqcxx@dark-knight.myhome.westell.com on
9/24/09 2:53 PM:

>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each time is
>>> it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will again be
>>> bitten?
>>> 
>>> It is much the same thing.
>>> 
>> ME was bad.  XP was pretty good... by SP2 at least.  Vista started off  bad
>> and, well, no real reason to think it ever got much better.  Maybe Win 7 will
>> be decent. Sure... it will still have malware and the dreaded  registry, but
>> overall might not be a bad OS.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> I'm sorry but Vista is ME next generation. It's a horrible OS.

Not disagreeing - but what are your specific complaints?

-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 10:01:42 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:28:49 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote
(in article <slrnhbni3h.vqn.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):

> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:28:02 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote
>> (in article <slrnhbmsv2.pnh.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):
>> 
>>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:27:57 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>>>> (in article <h9f3hb$pni$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:44 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:54:16 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>>>>>> (in article <h9eqh6$9h6$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:46:05 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I've a question. What do Linuxheads do to sync their iPods? Is there 
>>>>>>>> an 
>>>>>>>> open 
>>>>>>>> sourced application that allows them to rip and download music and 
>>>>>>>> sync 
>>>>>>>> it 
>>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>>> an iPod on a Linux box?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> They have several applications but none of them are as good as
>>>>>>> iTunes or Media Monkey for Windows.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also iPods and Linuxheads don't seem to be a good match.
>>>>>>> They prefer other brands of music players in general.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ah, you must mean the cheap ones.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hahaha!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yea, I suppose...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Seriously though, I've gone through a couple of different
>>>>> players and the iPod sets the standard. It really does.
>>>> 
>>>> There are two classes of music player buyers who don't buy iPods: The 
>>>> incredibly cheap and the Apple haters who would rather cut their noses 
>>>> off 
>>>> to 
>>> 
>>> ...because it just isn't possible that there is some actual reason that
>>> someone might choose something other than the "one true brand".
>>> 
>>> The Lemming mentality in action.
>>> 
>>> [deletia]
>>> 
>>> People who use other products are simply willing to consider other 
>>> products.
>> 
>> Problem is, that anybody who chooses these other products is choosing them 
>> because of one of the two above reasons. They're pretty much all inclusive. 
>> It's either based on cost or anti-Apple sentiment. Why else would someone 
>> buy 
>> an inferior product?
> 
>     The Lemming mentality in action here...

Informed consumerism in action here. I've looked at the "competition". There 
is a reason why Apple rules this market segment and it hasn't anything to do 
with lemmings. 

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 10:03:48 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:21:48 -0700, RonB wrote
(in article <h9gkcu$6fu$1@news.eternal-september.org>):

> JEDIDIAH wrote:
> 
>> Not at all. There were a number of very blatant "you use something else
>> because you can't afford Apple" remarks remarks in there. There is also the
>> recurring use of the term "freetard".
> 
> Yep. Still don't know why an iPOD is supposedly "superior" to another 
> MP3 player -- they both play MP3s and video clips. What is it, exactly, 
> that iPOD does that another MP3 player can't do? -- besides sport a 
> sleek Apple logo on their Chinese sweat shop device?
> 
> 

That you don't know the answer to this sort of disqualifies you from having 
an informed opinion about iPods, now doesn't it?

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 10:05:19 PM
Fa-groon wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:21:48 -0700, RonB wrote
> (in article <h9gkcu$6fu$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
> 
>> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>
>>> Not at all. There were a number of very blatant "you use something else
>>> because you can't afford Apple" remarks remarks in there. There is also the
>>> recurring use of the term "freetard".
>> Yep. Still don't know why an iPOD is supposedly "superior" to another 
>> MP3 player -- they both play MP3s and video clips. What is it, exactly, 
>> that iPOD does that another MP3 player can't do? -- besides sport a 
>> sleek Apple logo on their Chinese sweat shop device?
>>
>>
> 
> That you don't know the answer to this sort of disqualifies you from having 
> an informed opinion about iPods, now doesn't it?

That you can provide *no* real reasons speaks volumes about your motive 
for preferring iPODS.

"Shiii-ny."

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 10:08:22 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:13:42 -0700, RonB wrote
(in article <h9gjtm$19t$2@news.eternal-september.org>):

> Fa-groon wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:40:43 -0700, Moshe Goldfarb wrote
>> (in article <h9feqo$rnj$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:34:25 -0500, RonB wrote:
>>> 
>>>> RonB wrote:
>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, you get what you pay for. 
>>>>> Gee, I just figured out how I'm going to make my fortune. Get some cheap 
>>>>> Chinese crap, put a fancier logo on it than what Apple uses -- and sell 
>>>>> it for even more money to Apple Kool-Aid drinking cultists then what 
>>>>> they're paying for their iPODs now. Can't fail.
>>>> And here's why iPODs are "worth more" than other MP3 players...
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14915
>>>> 
>>>> Apple's iPods are made by mainly female workers who earn as little as 
>>>> �27 per month, according to a report in the Mail on Sunday yesterday.
>>> Yea...
>>> And so are Nike sneakers, designer clothes, tires, brake pads
>>> etc,.......
>> 
>> And every other portable music player sold, including the zunes. Not a 
>> valid 
>> argument for or against any brand. 
> 
> The point is that, the iPODs, like most other gadgets, are made in 
> Chinese sweat shops. Just because it has more sale's hype and a fancier 
> logo then the other MP3 players, doesn't make it a superior product. Or 
> are you the kind who also buys Nike tennis shoes for the logo?
> 
> 

I never bought a pair of Nike tennis shoes in my life. Not to be unkind, but 
If you don't understand the quality of ipods (which is inherent in their 
design, not who builds them to the manufacturer's specs) or the importance of 
the symbiosis between the iPod and the computer, then you don't understand 
the market at all and your opinions on this subject are uninformed and 
therefore worthless.

0
fa-groon (1448)
9/24/2009 10:09:55 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:11:08 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> Rick <none@nomail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>>> 
>>>> The license.
>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>>> needed to install.
>>>> Generated file sizes.
>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>>> Price
>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>>> license?
>>> 
>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the world
>>> has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY compatible with
>>> MS Office files, it's not 100%.
>>
>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible with
>> each other.
> 
> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether you
> like it or not.

Hadron:"NO business is going to risk their document integrity by 
allowing ... They HAVE standardised on word".

Ernie Ball, Backcountry.com, JH Larson Electrical Company, Health First, 
Inc., Life Brokerage Equity Group, Hustler Turf Equipment, Ford & Warren 
Solicitors,Howard County Library, City of Northglenn, Colorado, City of 
Largo, Florida,  Brandon Elementary School, Illinois Central College,  ...

That's a fair amount of ... none...
:-)
-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:09:55 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:15:03 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Hadron stated in post h9gg8e$d23$4@news.eternal-september.org on 9/24/09
> 12:11 PM:
> 
>> Rick <none@nomail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>>>> 
>>>>> The license.
>>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>>>> needed to install.
>>>>> Generated file sizes.
>>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>>>> Price
>>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>>>> license?
>>>> 
>>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the
>>>> world has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY
>>>> compatible with MS Office files, it's not 100%.
>>> 
>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible
>>> with each other.
>> 
>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
>> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
>> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
>> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
>> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
>> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
>> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
>> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
>> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether
>> you like it or not.
> 
> Rick is not happy I have shown such things as:
> 
> Poor cropping in Writer:
> 
>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/fullOfCrop.mov>
> 
> Poorly done styles when used with lists:
> 
>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>
> 
> Poor compatibility:
> 
>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp/>
>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp2/>
> 
> 
> All Rick can respond with is that MS Office for DOS would not work well
> either.  :)

You're a liar. The above line is a lie. It is a lie I am point out to you.



-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:10:41 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:15:35 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:11:08 +0200, Hadron wrote:
> 
>> Rick <none@nomail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
>>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46731@newsfe10.iad>):
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>>>> 
>>>>> The license.
>>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
>>>>> needed to install.
>>>>> Generated file sizes.
>>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
>>>>> Price
>>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
>>>>> license?
>>>> 
>>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the
>>>> world has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY
>>>> compatible with MS Office files, it's not 100%.
>>>
>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible
>>> with each other.
>> 
>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
>> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
>> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
>> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
>> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
>> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
>> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
>> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
>> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether
>> you like it or not.
> 
> You will never convince these radical Linux freetards.
> 
> It's like trying to convert a Jehovah's Witness to Islam.

You going to go on record as agreeing with "...NO business is going to 
risk their document integrity..."? Maybe you should do some reading.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:11:43 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:35:45 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Moshe Goldfarb stated in post h9gggk$34q$1@news.eternal-september.org on
> 9/24/09 12:15 PM:
> 
>>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible
>>>> with each other.
>>> 
>>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
>>> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
>>> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
>>> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
>>> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
>>> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
>>> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
>>> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
>>> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether
>>> you like it or not.
>> 
>> You will never convince these radical Linux freetards.
>> 
>> It's like trying to convert a Jehovah's Witness to Islam.
> 
> Same form of herd mentality in both cases.

Idiot.



-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:12:07 PM
RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> writes:

> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
>>     Not at all. There were a number of very blatant "you use something else
>> because you can't afford Apple" remarks remarks in there. There is also the
>> recurring use of the term "freetard".
>
> Yep. Still don't know why an iPOD is supposedly "superior" to another 
> MP3 player -- they both play MP3s and video clips. What is it, exactly, 
> that iPOD does that another MP3 player can't do? -- besides sport a 
> sleek Apple logo on their Chinese sweat shop device?

You really must learn not to talk about things you know nothing
about. Do you have any idea how ignorant you sound?!?!?

You're as bad as Jeb. We had him telling us how a modern FPS takes a
couple of programmers a week or two, how no one needs or uses multiple
monitors and how UI consistency is for "idiots". And thats amongst many
more of his and your ludicrous nonsense.

I'm not sure you could be more uninformed if you tried.

0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 10:12:09 PM
JEDIDIAH wrote:

> UI stuff you mean? 
> 
> This assumes that the rest of the world is as if it were trapped in amber.

Now it's the UI on MP3 players. I think these Apple boys overthink 
everything. Do they ever actually play the freakin' music or are they 
constantly reorganizing it?

"Life. Life for sale!"

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 10:12:15 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:26:15 -0700, Snit wrote:

> JEDIDIAH stated in post slrnhbnl3n.pqg.jedi@nomad.mishnet on 9/24/09
> 1:20 PM:
> 
>>>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the
>>>>> world has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY
>>>>> compatible with MS Office files, it's not 100%.
>>>> 
>>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible
>>>> with each other.
>>> 
>>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
>> 
>>      Not at all. Open Office is not necessarily any worse than the
>> "real thing". Infact, if you manage to encounter some msoffice related
>> problem, the first thing that anyone will assume is that you are having
>> one of these intra-version sorts of problems. It will never occur to
>> them that you might be using a different product entirely.
> 
> Why not?  And if you are trying to do something with OpenOffice that it
> does not handle well, then what?  An example is here:
> 
>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>
> 
>> [deletia]
>> 
>>     The reality "on the ground" is that msoffice end users don't even
>> expect complete compatability out of different copies of msoffice.
> 
> They pretty much do.  And it works.

Let me know when the various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible.



-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:13:02 PM
Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> writes:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:21:48 -0700, RonB wrote
> (in article <h9gkcu$6fu$1@news.eternal-september.org>):
>
>> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>> 
>>> Not at all. There were a number of very blatant "you use something else
>>> because you can't afford Apple" remarks remarks in there. There is also the
>>> recurring use of the term "freetard".
>> 
>> Yep. Still don't know why an iPOD is supposedly "superior" to another 
>> MP3 player -- they both play MP3s and video clips. What is it, exactly, 
>> that iPOD does that another MP3 player can't do? -- besides sport a 
>> sleek Apple logo on their Chinese sweat shop device?
>> 
>> 
>
> That you don't know the answer to this sort of disqualifies you from having 
> an informed opinion about iPods, now doesn't it?
>

WronG and Jeb are simply clueless about modern HW, SW and SW Engineering
in general.

You must remember that WronG could not understand why having the hot key
for quit on one GUI and the same key as "format drive without warning"
on another programme's UI was potentially dangerous. He mentioned only
idiots not knowing the difference. The fact that people prefer common
key strokes across the desktop seemed to elude him.

That is the kind of mentality you are dealing with. COLA is full of
them.

0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 10:14:25 PM
Fa-groon wrote:

> I never bought a pair of Nike tennis shoes in my life. Not to be unkind, but 
> If you don't understand the quality of ipods (which is inherent in their 
> design, not who builds them to the manufacturer's specs) or the importance of 
> the symbiosis between the iPod and the computer, then you don't understand 
> the market at all and your opinions on this subject are uninformed and 
> therefore worthless.

Like the iPods that catch on fire? But do explain to me, specifically, 
why you think iPods are more "symbiotic" than other MP3 players. Let's 
descend to details instead of making mere claims.

-- 
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
0
ronb02noSPAM (7426)
9/24/2009 10:14:49 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:14:17 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Rick stated in post QbOdnX6N7P7X2CbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
> 9/24/09 3:09 AM:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> RonB stated in post h9eudi$ls$1@news.eternal-september.org on 9/23/09
>>> 10:00 PM:
>>> 
>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Well, yes, I guess I can give you that. BUT where your belief system
>>>>> falls down is when it comes to the software titles available for
>>>>> Windows. Every "shrinkwrapped" software title I've ever seen beats
>>>>> the pants off of any open source "alternative". Now while many of
>>>>> these might be OK for home use, most of them require far more work
>>>>> than their shrink'd counterparts and are far behind the commercial
>>>>> stuff in terms of features and convenience. If this doesn't bother
>>>>> you, go for it.
>>>> 
>>>> I'll tell my ex-boss that he needs to uninstall Open Office on his
>>>> Windows work machines -- because, even though we successfully used it
>>>> to replace Microsoft Office, I've now been told on a newsgroup that
>>>> it won't work for work. So what other shrink wrapped product were you
>>>> talking about, specifically?
>>> 
>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you find
>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>>> 
>>> 
>> So, even though it appears OO.o works  in RobB's work environment,
>> you're going to tell him it doesn't?
> 
> Of course not.  I do not act like you.

RonB said "... because, even though we successfully used it to replace 
Microsoft Office..."

Your reply "You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is 
MS Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples."

Apparently OO.o is "as fit for the job as is MS Office" in RonB's 
situation. Now, maybe you can enlighten him as to why it isn't, since 
"successfully used it to replace Microsoft Office".

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:15:44 PM
"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message 
news:slrnhbnqkq.i6o.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2009-09-24, Ezekiel <not-zeke@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>> news:slrnhbnhop.vqn.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>>> On 2009-09-24, Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:49:04 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu Moshe Goldfarb <moshegoldfarb@yahoo.com> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>People who choose Linux have to deal with substandard multimedia
>>>>>>>applications, poor hardware support and in general an
>>>>>>>applications base that just not have the high quality mainstream
>>>>>>>applications that Windows and Mac users are privy to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Poor hardware support?  My my.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you ever tried buying a copy of Windows and installing
>>>>>> it on a computer you built using premium parts?  I guess not.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's all well and good to sing Linux praises for what it is : a bloody
>>>>> great OS - stable and secure.
>>>>>
>>>>> But to talk such obvious bollox as above make you sound like a braying
>>>>> jackass.
>>>>>
>>>>> MS and Apple are far better supported with Modern HW. And no amount of
>>>>> how you play your silly word games will change that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Linux does install a lot easier on a lot of newish and older
>>>>> HW. But to claim its driver support for modern HW is even a patch on 
>>>>> the
>>>>> two leading OSen is poppycock.
>>>>
>>>> Why do Linux users seem to have so many problems with Windows?
>>>>
>>>> The first question that should be asked is why did he buy dodgy
>>>> hardware to begin with?
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> Because that's preciously the question the freetards ask when
>>>> people complain of the lack of hardware support that Linux has.
>>>
>>
>>>    Give me a buzz when your chosen platform fully supports the HD-PVR.
>>
>> I've been recording full HD content on my XP based HTPC for several years
>
>     PBS doesn't count.

All the HD content that I record counts.


>> now. Get your mentality out from the 1980's and get a clue to what people
>> are actually doing with their computers.
>
>     Now that you mention it, I am not sure that MCE even fully supports
> the entire featureset of the HDHomeRun either.

So now you're going to take the ignorant position that people aren't able to 
use Windows based computers to record HD content?  I'll gladly prove you to 
be a fool once again if you'd like. Somehow myself and the scores of people 
who've been doing this for years didn't get your memo that this can't be 
done.







0
not-zeke (902)
9/24/2009 10:15:55 PM
RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> writes:

> Fa-groon wrote:
>
>> I never bought a pair of Nike tennis shoes in my life. Not to be unkind, but 
>> If you don't understand the quality of ipods (which is inherent in their 
>> design, not who builds them to the manufacturer's specs) or the importance of 
>> the symbiosis between the iPod and the computer, then you don't understand 
>> the market at all and your opinions on this subject are uninformed and 
>> therefore worthless.
>
> Like the iPods that catch on fire? But do explain to me, specifically, 
> why you think iPods are more "symbiotic" than other MP3 players. Let's 
> descend to details instead of making mere claims.

Stop being a clueless freetard and go out and use one. With a Mac or
Windows. Then come back. The maybe, and only maybe, you won't seem such
a clueless cretin.
0
hadronquark (21814)
9/24/2009 10:16:14 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:10:06 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:03:36 -0700, Rick wrote (in article
> <QbOdnXyN7P5l3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com>):
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:48 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:11:51 -0700, JEDIDIAH wrote (in article
>>> <slrnhblorn.2u4.jedi@nomad.mishnet>):
>>> 
>>>> On 2009-09-24, Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:33:02 -0700, RonB wrote (in article
>>>>> <h9ei8e$km2$3@news.eternal-september.org>):
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:14:49 -0700, Ignoramus8004 wrote (in
>>>>>>> article <UZudnSxR9eJEACfXnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however
>>>>>>>>> slightly.
>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share, it
>>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>>>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Riiiiight. Beer is free. In MY DREAMS!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think that's the point -- something that is normally *not* free
>>>>>> (like software or beer) is offered for free (like Linux or free
>>>>>> beer).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>>>> point about
>>>>> about free software.
>>>> 
>>>> You don't even want to go there...
>>>> 
>>>> Microsoft: the Budwieser of operating systems.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> I'd say that you were giving MS a lot of credit. How about  Microsoft:
>>> the Old Milwaukee of operating systems? or  Microsoft: the Brown Derby
>>> of operating systems? Or, if we want to go really bad, perhaps
>>> Microsoft: the Coors Light of operating systems? Coors Light. Now
>>> there's a redundancy.
>> 
>> Maybe you should get some Coors from Out West?
> 
> I've had it, thank you. Regular Coors is so light that it has almost no
> flavor and Coors Light has less than no flavor. Like the Brits say:
> Drinking Coors is like making love in the bottom of a canoe: f_ _king
> close to water. 8^)

Ah, well... 

The ales in the British pubs here are pretty strong :-)

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:17:40 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:58:27 -0400, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>  
wrote:

> d4rkn1ght stated in post  
> op.u0r6sr10yqqcxx@dark-knight.myhome.westell.com on
> 9/24/09 2:47 PM:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:12:43 -0400, Rick <none@nomail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:55:03 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rick stated in post QbOdnUeN7P4NRyfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
>>>> 9/23/09 7:33 PM:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:22:58 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard stated in post 20090923204443.47f7a693@WizardsTower  
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> 9/23/09 6:44 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:40:34 -0700
>>>>>>> Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RonB stated in post h9ehv1$km2$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>>>>>>>> 9/23/09 6:27 PM:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ignoramus8004 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2009-09-23, d.b. cooper <db@cooper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Those are interesting stats. It's clear Micro$oft is worried.
>>>>>>>>>>> Witness their shabby attempt at Best Buy to convince their
>>>>>>>>>>> employees to bash Linux. They are concerned their gigantic
>>>>>>>>>>> profits my be cut into, however slightly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even if Microsoft manages to retain its dominant market share,  
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> may be forced to give away or even subsidize Windows. This will
>>>>>>>>>> get us closer to the world where software is free (as in beer).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They've already been forced to discount XP (and probably Windows  
>>>>>>>>> 7)
>>>>>>>>> for Netbooks. The way these things usually work is starts with
>>>>>>>>> erosion around the edges before the big cracks start appearing. I
>>>>>>>>> guess a lot depends on how well Microsoft can dupe people with
>>>>>>>>> Vista 7.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And how good Windows 7 is.  If it is a good product, no need to
>>>>>>>> "dupe" people.  Your bias is showing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each
>>>>>>> time is it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you  
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> again be bitten?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is much the same thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cybe R. Wizard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet folks in COLA hope people will keep trying desktop Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course... why keep reaching into the Windows viper pit?
>>>>
>>>> Why reach back into the desktop Linux "pit"?
>>>
>>> It is not a pit. If you think of it as a viper pit, why do you still  
>>> use
>>> it?
>>>
>>>> Sure, it has gotten better
>>>> - much better - but it is still a mishmash of inconsistent and poorly
>>>> followed UI standards
>>>
>>> Not really. Maybe one day you will understand that people like to be  
>>> able
>>> to choose from KDE, Gnome, XFCE, and other environments.
>>>
>>> Maybe one day you will understand that KDE apps run in a KDE  
>>> environment
>>> are, for the most part, consistent, and that Gnome/gtk apps run in a
>>> Gnome environment are, for the most part consistent, and that the  
>>> ability
>>> to run an app that is written for one environment in another is a
>>> benefit.
>>>
>>> And maybe one day you will understand that not all developers adhere to
>>> published UI guidelines.
>>>
>>> Maybe, but I doubt it.
>>>
>>>
>>>> and it still is not well supported by Adobe or
>>>> Apple or MS or other major software developers.
>>>
>>> So what? There is much more software support for the Windows platform
>>> than there is for the Mac platform.
>>>
>>>> Do you expect users to
>>>> keep testing it year after year hoping it gets better?
>>>
>>> I expect that most of the users do what I do... use it to work and  
>>> play.
>>>
>>>> I hope they
>>>> do... and I hope (and believe) Linux will get better.
>>>
>>> Of course Linux systems will get better. Do you not hope Macs get  
>>> better?
>>> Do you not hope Windows will get better?
>>>
>>
>> I do not hope for Windows to get better. I hate the fact that I have to
>> use it at work. I rather use a Mac or even Linux at work than this  
>> crap. :@
>
> My primary OS is OS X... curious what your concerns are with Windows.
>
>

My primary OS at home is OSX too. I just can't stand dealing with Windows  
at work. It just not the same level of quality that I have at home.

Dealing with anti-viruses that slow down the system and constantly windows  
updates feels like playing wintendo! It's difficult to get work done  
sometimes when the OS get in the way.

I wish I could bring my Mac to work. Heck, even my old OS9 Mac will do  
better! ;)
0
nospam59 (11089)
9/24/2009 10:19:24 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:01:42 -0400, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>  
wrote:

> d4rkn1ght stated in post  
> op.u0r6200hyqqcxx@dark-knight.myhome.westell.com on
> 9/24/09 2:53 PM:
>
>>>> If you reach into a pit of vipers several times and get bitten each  
>>>> time is
>>>> it bias to believe that, if you reach in again, that you will again be
>>>> bitten?
>>>>
>>>> It is much the same thing.
>>>>
>>> ME was bad.  XP was pretty good... by SP2 at least.  Vista started  
>>> off  bad
>>> and, well, no real reason to think it ever got much better.  Maybe Win  
>>> 7 will
>>> be decent. Sure... it will still have malware and the dreaded   
>>> registry, but
>>> overall might not be a bad OS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I'm sorry but Vista is ME next generation. It's a horrible OS.
>
> Not disagreeing - but what are your specific complaints?
>

My complaints are the same ones that every one has. Read my previous post.
0
nospam59 (11089)
9/24/2009 10:24:04 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:17:33 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Rick stated in post QbOdnUKN7P7Q3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
> 9/24/09 3:00 AM:
> 
> ...
>>> Of course I do.  Unlike you, though, I do not deny the problems any of
>>> the OSs currently have.
>> 
>> I do not deny there are areas in which FOSS can be improved.  I  think
>> the majority of the  examples you use do not illustrate what you say
>> they do.
> 
> Can you give an example or two?   I bet not!
> 
> You are really quite bad at supporting anything you say.

Most of your examples of "inconsistent UI" result from you using an app 
written for one environment in another.

> 
>> I also think you do not understand that the FOSS ecosystem is
>> fundamentally different than the CSS ecosystem, and that you don't
>> understand that many of the things you think are weaknesses are
>> actually strengths.
> 
> Such as?  Again... you will never say.

For one, diversity. There is no one behemoth (think Apple, Microsoft) 
dictating the one true way. That is a strength and a difference.

For another, diversity. If you don't like a particular graphic 
environment, it is fairly easy to change to another.

The ability to easily use apps from one environment in another.

All strengths.. different from the standard CSS environment.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:24:40 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:14:36 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Rick stated in post QbOdnX2N7P7h3ibXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
> 9/24/09 3:01 AM:
> 
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:11:39 -0700, Snit wrote:
>> 
>>> Rick stated in post QbOdnUGN7P6teCfXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
>>> 9/23/09 8:19 PM:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:10:11 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> RonB stated in post h9ek5a$vbv$2@news.eternal-september.org on
>>>>> 9/23/09 7:05 PM:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Understand. But what quality is free beer likely to be? That's my
>>>>>>> point about about free software.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I happen to disagree. To me Linux (free) is definitely superior to
>>>>>> Windows -- and most of the software I used to use on Windows
>>>>>> (mostly free) is also available for Linux. But, as I've said
>>>>>> before, if there is specialized software that requires Windows or
>>>>>> Mac OS X, go for the platform you need.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Where Linux suffers right now... one of the areas anyway... is there
>>>>> is no killer software for it.  What class of software is on desktop
>>>>> Linux that is not done as well or better elsewhere?  Windows has all
>>>>> sorts of niche software... OS X has the graphic and video industry
>>>>> and is tops for ease of use... but what claim can desktop Linux make
>>>>> - *any* distro?
>>>> 
>>>> One "killer app" for FOSS systems is ... FOSS... the fact that it is
>>>> FOSS. No license worries. The ability for people/companies/whomever
>>>> to freely customize the software if they want or need to.
>>>> 
>>>> FOSS running under a FOSS operating system... killer app. And yes,
>>>> many people use it for that very reason.
>>> 
>>> FOSS is not an application.  Nice try though.
>> 
>> It is a concept, and you don't get it, as I said in another post.
> 
> You say many foolish things.  Sure.

As i said... It is a concept, and you don't get it.


-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:25:09 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:27:24 -0700, Snit wrote:

> Rick stated in post QbOdnX-N7P4i2SbXnZ2dnUVZ_vBi4p2d@supernews.com on
> 9/24/09 3:06 AM:
> 
>>>> Seems to be a buddy/pal trend. Apple loves Windows, just don't load
>>>> Mac OS on a PC or expect a Linux version of Apple Software because
>>>> Microsoft might start a lover's quarrel. I now see the Mac/PC
>>>> dorkfest commercials in a new light.
>>> 
>>> Sheer numbers, my friend, sheer numbers. I suspect that Apple finds
>>> Linux simply too small a market to worry about. Add to that the myriad
>>> of distributions and number of different GUIs in use on that platform,
>>> and I suspect Apple just figured that it's not worth it..... yet.
>> 
>> ... Myriad of distributions.. yeah that the excuse that is commonly
>> 
>> trotted out. It should be fairly easy for Apple to put together a
>> binary blob iTunes.
> 
> That would not solve the problem of having no target UI to design for.

They could probably write hooks/plugins for KDE/qt and Gnome/gtk, or just 
do a qt version or a gtk version.

-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:27:17 PM
On Sep 24, 4:10=A0pm, Rick <n...@nomail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:15:03 -0700, Snit wrote:
> > Hadron stated in post h9gg8e$d2...@news.eternal-september.org on 9/24/0=
9
> > 12:11 PM:
>
> >> Rick <n...@nomail.com> writes:
>
> >>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:28:40 -0700, Fa-groon wrote:
>
> >>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:30:12 -0700, jellybean stonerfish wrote (in
> >>>> article <UlEum.68504$u76.46...@newsfe10.iad>):
>
> >>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:24 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
> >>>>>> You can pretend that Open Office is as fit for the job as is MS
> >>>>>> Office, but I have shown a number of counter examples. Can you fin=
d
> >>>>>> any place where OpenOffice is ahead of MS Office?
>
> >>>>> The license.
> >>>>> Command line use, ie: Printing files without loading the gui. Space
> >>>>> needed to install.
> >>>>> Generated file sizes.
> >>>>> Opening OASIS ODF 1.2.
> >>>>> Price
> >>>>> Variety of operating systems it will install on. Did I mention the
> >>>>> license?
>
> >>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the
> >>>> world has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY
> >>>> compatible with MS Office files, it's not 100%.
>
> >>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible
> >>> with each other.
>
> >> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
> >> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
> >> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
> >> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
> >> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
> >> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
> >> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
> >> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
> >> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether
> >> you like it or not.
>
> > Rick is not happy I have shown such things as:
>
> > Poor cropping in Writer:
>
> > =A0 =A0 <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/fullOfCrop.mov>
>
> > Poorly done styles when used with lists:
>
> > =A0 =A0 <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
> > =A0 =A0 <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>
>
> > Poor compatibility:
>
> > =A0 =A0 <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp/>
> > =A0 =A0 <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp2/>
>
> > All Rick can respond with is that MS Office for DOS would not work well
> > either. =A0:)
>
> You're a liar. The above line is a lie. It is a lie I am point out to you=
..

You saw it said "Snit" in the "From:" field of the headers, right?
There was really no need to go any further to determine the stuff
below it was a lie.
0
fretwizz (2823)
9/24/2009 10:28:18 PM
d4rkn1ght stated in post op.u0r8amepyqqcxx@dark-knight.myhome.westell.com on
9/24/09 3:19 PM:

>>>> Of course Linux systems will get better. Do you not hope Macs get
>>>> better?
>>>> Do you not hope Windows will get better?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I do not hope for Windows to get better. I hate the fact that I have to
>>> use it at work. I rather use a Mac or even Linux at work than this
>>> crap. :@
>> 
>> My primary OS is OS X... curious what your concerns are with Windows.
>> 
>> 
> 
> My primary OS at home is OSX too. I just can't stand dealing with Windows
> at work. It just not the same level of quality that I have at home.
> 
> Dealing with anti-viruses that slow down the system and constantly windows
> updates feels like playing wintendo! It's difficult to get work done
> sometimes when the OS get in the way.
> 
> I wish I could bring my Mac to work. Heck, even my old OS9 Mac will do
> better! ;)

Fair enough.


-- 
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 10:35:55 PM
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:16:29 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> "Rotten Apple" <rotten@pple.com> writes:
> 
>> Market share is sales.    Linux is given away for free.
> 
> Nonsense. Market Share is the "share of the available market". And not
> all Linux is "free". It's 100$ if Porter installs it for example.
> 
> It would take a particularly dense person not to understand it means in
> the real world in the context of desktop OSen.

"What it means in the real world"...

This is what it means in the real world:
http://www.investorwords.com/2989/market_share.html

The percentage of the total sales of a given type of product or service 
that are attributable to a given company.

market - A public place where buyers and sellers make transactions, 
directly or via intermediaries. Also sometimes means the stock market.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/market-share.html

market share - Percentage of total sales volume in a market captured by a 
brand, product, or firm.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4422355_define-market-share.html

The basic idea of market share is simple. Market share is the amount of a 
product or service (usually expressed as a percentage) that a business 
sells in a given market area.

http://www.investorglossary.com/market-share.htm

Market share is the percentage of the total market that a company 
controls for a particular product or product category. 

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/market+share

market share
The proportion of industry sales of a good or service that is controlled 
by a company. Some investors prefer companies with relatively large 
market shares because they are generally less likely to be squeezed by 
competitors.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/m/market-share/

A company's market share is the percentage of all products in a category 
that that company sells. Thus market share is calculated by dividing a 
company's sales by the total sales in a category.





-- 
Rick
0
none11 (12193)
9/24/2009 10:36:28 PM
On 09/24/2009 12:29 PM, Paul J Gans wrote:
> In alt.os.linux.ubuntu *Hemidactylus*<ecphoric@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 09/23/2009 10:09 PM, RonB wrote:
>>> *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>>
>>>> Some people knit, others collect stamps, yet others like to watch the
>>>> progress bar on their AV program as it takes 45 min to clean tracking
>>>> cookies from their system. And the paid versions replace the anemic
>>>> Windows firewall with their own.
>>>>
>>>> Avast is like playing a video game and talks to you when updated.
>>>
>>> I never thought of that. So what you're saying is that Windows is a
>>> platform for anti-virus and anti-malware software. So, maybe, Windows
>>> users *want* malware and viruses, just so they can have the satisfaction
>>> of seeing their boxes cleaned up (sometimes) with their anti-malware
>>> software? I used to enjoy watching defrag work, so this makes sense.
>>>
>> Oh yeah defrag is fun too. Why the hell can't I defrag Linux! I feel
>> cheated. And the biggest issue I have with Vista is that I have not yet
>> figured out how to get that nice full-color spectral display showing the
>> before and after states for defrag like in XP. Vista defrag is boring
>> and takes a REALLY long time with very little for eye candy. Bring a
>> book or two. XP's defrag is hypnotic like a laser light show at a rave.
>> Break out the glow sticks and clove cigs and trance out to Mix Master DJ
>> Billy Gates on the wheel of steel.
>
>> And Linux cheats us out of that nice BSoD display. I miss that. Dammit
>> I'm switching back. Linux is cheating me out of so much fun (AV scans,
>> defrags, BSoD's). Good thing I'm not paying for it or I'd really get upset.
>
> <grin>
>
> You forgot the fun of pointing and clicking and cussing when you find
> you've dropped your file into the wrong directory.
>
> But my favorite is turning on my Windows box to do something urgent
> and then dealing with all the popups insisting that I upgrade this
> or that RIGHT NOW.  And I can't have my machine back until I deal
> with all this.
>
> The cure of course is never turn the Windows box on.
>
That's the downside of Fedora. I like it so much that I don't spend 
enough time on my Windows machines. When I do turn them on it's been so 
long that I've neglected them I go into that pop-up overload state you 
mention where all these things start nagging me to get updated. My AV 
software is so pissed at me that it flags me with firewall and signature 
database warnings which gets the Windows Security feature involved, even 
after I update, but then I gotta go over and get into Windows Update 
before it blows a circuit which the laundry list of patches and updates. 
Then after all that Firefox tell me I've got a new browser version. And 
I haven't even had a chance to restart yet. By then I forgot exactly 
what it was I booted the Windows for in the first place. And it takes 
FOREVER and a day to restart a Vista machine after updates that require 
restart.

Fedora just lets me know some bug patches or updates are ready. I click 
on a button and go about my business. If it needs a restart I see an 
icon for this and deal with it later. Relatively uneventful.
0
ecphoric (303)
9/24/2009 10:37:01 PM
Rick stated in post T6CdnWBH1tv8cybXnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 3:10 PM:

>>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible
>>>> with each other.
>>> 
>>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
>>> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
>>> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
>>> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
>>> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
>>> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
>>> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
>>> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
>>> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether
>>> you like it or not.
>> 
>> Rick is not happy I have shown such things as:
>> 
>> Poor cropping in Writer:
>> 
>>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/fullOfCrop.mov>
>> 
>> Poorly done styles when used with lists:
>> 
>>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
>>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>
>> 
>> Poor compatibility:
>> 
>>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp/>
>>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OfficeComp2/>
>> 
>> 
>> All Rick can respond with is that MS Office for DOS would not work well
>> either.  :)
> 
> You're a liar. The above line is a lie. It is a lie I am point out to you.

Be specific... what do you think is a lie?  What is the "truth" behind the
lie?  

Rick runs in 3... 2... 1...

The only question is which mantra will he use.  Those links show specific
problems with OpenOffice... and they clearly bother you. Hence the reason
you run.


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0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 10:37:29 PM
Rick stated in post T6CdnWJH1tsqcybXnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 3:12 PM:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:35:45 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> Moshe Goldfarb stated in post h9gggk$34q$1@news.eternal-september.org on
>> 9/24/09 12:15 PM:
>> 
>>>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible
>>>>> with each other.
>>>> 
>>>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
>>>> issue in a company about multiple versions generally (even then it
>>>> generally works). The simple fact is that time and time again it has
>>>> been shown that, despite the merits of OO as a free Office clone, it
>>>> simply does not cut the mustard in the compatibility stakes. Even with
>>>> relatively simple layouts it screws up word documents. This is a fact
>>>> and NO business is going to risk their document integrity by allowing
>>>> some freetard like you to corrupt their documents in order to prove a
>>>> point. They simply dont care. They HAVE standardised on word whether
>>>> you like it or not.
>>> 
>>> You will never convince these radical Linux freetards.
>>> 
>>> It's like trying to convert a Jehovah's Witness to Islam.
>> 
>> Same form of herd mentality in both cases.
> 
> Idiot.
> 
> 
LOL!  Poor Rick does not like his "herd mentality" mantra shoved in his
face.

Neither does the rest of his herd.  :)


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0
usenet2 (47889)
9/24/2009 10:38:15 PM
Rick stated in post T6CdnZ1G1ttzcybXnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@supernews.com on
9/24/09 3:13 PM:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:26:15 -0700, Snit wrote:
> 
>> JEDIDIAH stated in post slrnhbnl3n.pqg.jedi@nomad.mishnet on 9/24/09
>> 1:20 PM:
>> 
>>>>>> Don't get me wrong, I like Open Office, I like it a lot, but the
>>>>>> world has standardized on MS Office, and while OO is MOSTLY
>>>>>> compatible with MS Office files, it's not 100%.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let me know when various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible
>>>>> with each other.
>>>> 
>>>> You know Rick, you get more ridiculous with every post. It's not the
>>> 
>>>      Not at all. Open Office is not necessarily any worse than the
>>> "real thing". Infact, if you manage to encounter some msoffice related
>>> problem, the first thing that anyone will assume is that you are having
>>> one of these intra-version sorts of problems. It will never occur to
>>> them that you might be using a different product entirely.
>> 
>> Why not?  And if you are trying to do something with OpenOffice that it
>> does not handle well, then what?  An example is here:
>> 
>>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents.mov>
>>     <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/OOIndents2.mov>
>> 
>>> [deletia]
>>> 
>>>     The reality "on the ground" is that msoffice end users don't even
>>> expect complete compatability out of different copies of msoffice.
>> 
>> They pretty much do.  And it works.
> 
> Let me know when the various versions of MS Office are 100% compatible.
> 
> 
Rick has a new mantra.  Poor guy... he thinks having so many replaces
thought.


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