f



Linux has a long way to go before it becomes the major OS

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------83514FFB5FC804E7A05DB999
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071
--------------83514FFB5FC804E7A05DB999
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1;
 name="newsArticle.jhtml"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="newsArticle.jhtml"
Content-Base: "http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jht
	ml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071"
Content-Location: "http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jht
	ml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071"







<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>Reuters | Latest Financial News / Full News Coverage</title>
<meta name=3D"description" content=3D"Reuters | The leading source of Bre=
aking Business News, Full News Coverage, Stock Quotes and Global Market D=
ata.">
<meta name=3D"keywords" content=3D"Reuters Group PLC, Breaking News, Worl=
d News, newswire, Mutual funds, market risk, market data, foreign exchang=
e, interest rates, RiskGrade, industry briefs, stocks, world markets, int=
ernational, stock quotes, financial, router, rooter, reuter, reuterz,  ru=
eter, royter">
<link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/reuters.css" TYPE=
=3D"text/css">
<link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/weather.css" TYPE=
=3D"text/css">
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE=3D"JavaScript" SRC=3D"utilities.js"></script> =

</head>

<body leftmargin=3D"0" topmargin=3D"0" marginwidth=3D"0" marginheight=3D"=
0" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" link=3D"#000099" alink=3D"#000099" vlink=3D"#00009=
9">

<script src=3D"/dm/dm_client.js"></script>
<script>DM_tag();</script>
<noscript><img src=3D"http://p.reuters.com/A0001/a3/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/nos=
cript.gif"></noscript>






	=






<style>
=2Emasthead {
	background: #FFFFFF url(http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/dots.gif) rep=
eat-y fixed top right;
}
=2Eutilbox {
	background: #FFFFFF;
	border: 1px solid #C2C6CB;
	padding: 3px;
	font: 12px verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
	color: #666666;
}
=2Eutilbox a {
	text-decoration: none;
	font: bold 12px verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
	color: #666666;
}
=2Eutilbox a:hover {
	text-decoration: underline;
	color: #666666;
}
</style>

<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%" cl=
ass=3D"masthead">
<tr>
	<td valign=3D"top"><a href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/home.jhtml" target=3D=
"_top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/reuters.gif" width=3D=
"207" height=3D"57" border=3D"0"></a><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/=
com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"7" height=3D"57" alt=3D"" border=3D"0"></t=
d>
	<td valign=3D"top" align=3D"right">
		<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"5" cellpadding=3D"0">
			=

				<tr><td class=3D"utilbox"><a href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/userRegis=
ter.jhtml?product=3Dlogin&pageFrom=3D/newsArticle.jhtml?type%3DreutersEdg=
e%26storyID%3D4181071" target=3D"_top">Log In</a> or <a href=3D"http://ww=
w.reuters.com/userRegister.jhtml?pageFrom=3D/newsArticle.jhtml?type%3Dreu=
tersEdge%26storyID%3D4181071" target=3D"_top">Register Now</a></td></tr>
			=

		</table>
	</td>

	<td valign=3D"top">
			=




<table border=3D'0' cellpadding=3D'0' cellspacing=3D'0' align=3D'center'>=
<tr><td valign=3D'top' align=3D'middle'><SCRIPT language=3D"JavaScript1.1=
" SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/articl=
e;abr=3D!webtv;tag=3Dstandard;dcopt=3Dist;sz=3D1x1;ord=3D662823057?"></SC=
RIPT><SCRIPT>if ((!document.images && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Mozill=
a/2.') >=3D 0) || navigator.userAgent.indexOf("WebTV") >=3D 0) {document.=
write('<A HREF=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/reuters.com.dart/news/pi=
cks/article;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D1x1;ord=3D662823057?">');document.write('=
<IMG SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/arti=
cle;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D1x1;ord=3D662823057?" border=3D"0" width=3D"1" he=
ight=3D"1"></A>');}</SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT><A HREF=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.ne=
t/jump/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/article;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D1x1;ord=3D=
662823057?"><IMG SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/reuters.com.dart/new=
s/picks/article;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D1x1;ord=3D662823057?" border=3D"0" wi=
dth=3D"1" height=3D"1"></A></NOSCRIPT></td></tr></table>

	=

	</td>
</tr>

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" colspan=3D"3">
			=



<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%">
	<tr><td valign=3D"top" width=3D"274"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com=
/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"274" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/c=
om/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3"></td>
		<td valign=3D"top" rowspan=3D"2" width=3D"85" align=3D"right"><a href=3D=
"http://about.reuters.com" target=3D"_new"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuter=
s.com/com/images/reutersTheCompanyButton.gif" width=3D"68" height=3D"24" =
border=3D"0"></a></td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td rowspan=3D"2" valign=3D"top" width=3D"274">
			<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"274">=

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/home.jhtml" t=
arget=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/homeTabOff.=
gif" width=3D"68" height=3D"22" border=3D"0"></a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/cle=
ar.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><a href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/finance.jhtml" t=
arget=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/financeTabO=
ff.gif" width=3D"102" height=3D"22" border=3D"0"></a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/cle=
ar.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><a href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/news.jhtml" targ=
et=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/newsTabOn.gif"=
 width=3D"102" height=3D"22" border=3D"0"></a></td>
			</tr>
			</table>	=

		</td>
		<form name=3D"gsl" method=3D"get" action=3D"http://www.reuters.com/fina=
nceQuoteLookup.jhtml" target=3D"_top">
		<td valign=3D"top" align=3D"right" class=3D"headerSearchBox">	=

			<select name=3D"qtype" class=3D"headerSearchBox">
				<option value=3D"sym">Symbol</option>
				<option value=3D"name">Name</option>
			</select>
		</td>
		<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"headerSearchBox">
	   		<input class=3D"headerSearchBox" type=3D"hidden" name=3D"qcat" valu=
e=3D"sbox">
	   		<input class=3D"headerSearchBox" type=3D"hidden" name=3D"infotype" =
value=3D"info">
			<script>
				if (document.all) {
					document.write('<input class=3D"headerSearchBox" name=3D"ticker" typ=
e=3D"text" size=3D"7">');
				}
				else if (document.getElementById) {
					document.write('<input class=3D"headerSearchBox" name=3D"ticker" typ=
e=3D"text" size=3D"12">');
				}
				else {
					document.write('<input class=3D"headerSearchBox" name=3D"ticker" typ=
e=3D"text" size=3D"5">');
				}
			</script>
		</td>
		<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear=
=2Egif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"></td>
		<td valign=3D"middle"><input type=3D"image" src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.=
com/com/images/quoteButton.gif" width=3D"39" height=3D"17" border=3D"0"><=
/td>
		</form>
		<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear=
=2Egif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"></td>

		<form name=3D"searchForm" method=3D"get" action=3D"http://www.reuters.c=
om/newsSearchResultsHome.jhtml" target=3D"_top">
		<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"headerSearchBox">
			<select name=3D"qtype" class=3D"headerSearchBox">
				<option value=3D"a">News</option>
				<option value=3D"p">Photos</option>
			</select>
		</td>
		<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"headerSearchBox">
			<input type=3D"hidden" name=3D"position" value=3D"1">
			<script>
				if (document.all) {
					document.write('<input class=3D"headerSearchBox" name=3D"query" type=
=3D"text" size=3D"20">');
				}
				else if (document.getElementById) {
					document.write('<input class=3D"headerSearchBox" name=3D"query" type=
=3D"text" size=3D"25">');
				}
				else {
					document.write('<input class=3D"headerSearchBox" name=3D"query" type=
=3D"text" size=3D"12">');
				}
			</script>
		</td>
		<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear=
=2Egif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"></td>
		<td valign=3D"middle"><input type=3D"image" src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.=
com/com/images/searchButton.gif" width=3D"43" height=3D"17" border=3D"0">=
<img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"3" hei=
ght=3D"1"></td>
		</form>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td colspan=3D"10" bgcolor=3D"#333333"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.=
com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"1" alt=3D"" border=3D"0"=
></td>
	</tr>

</table>
	</td></tr>

</table>








<table border=3D'0' cellpadding=3D'0' cellspacing=3D'0' align=3D'center'>=
<tr><td valign=3D'top' align=3D'middle'><SCRIPT language=3D"JavaScript1.1=
" SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/articl=
e;abr=3D!webtv;sz=3D468x60;ptile=3D1;ord=3D662823057?"></SCRIPT><SCRIPT>i=
f ((!document.images && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Mozilla/2.') >=3D 0)=
 || navigator.userAgent.indexOf("WebTV") >=3D 0) {document.write('<A HREF=
=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/article;ta=
g=3Dstandard;sz=3D468x60;ptile=3D1;ord=3D662823057?">');document.write('<=
IMG SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/artic=
le;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D468x60;ptile=3D1;ord=3D662823057?" border=3D"0" wi=
dth=3D"468" height=3D"60"></A>');}</SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT><A HREF=3D"http://ad=
=2Edoubleclick.net/jump/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/article;tag=3Dstandar=
d;sz=3D468x60;ptile=3D1;ord=3D662823057?"><IMG SRC=3D"http://ad.doublecli=
ck.net/ad/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/article;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D468x60;=
ptile=3D1;ord=3D662823057?" border=3D"0" width=3D"468" height=3D"60"></A>=
</NOSCRIPT></td></tr></table>

	=


<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%">
<tr><td valign=3D"top" colspan=3D"5"><br class=3D"vertical5"></td></tr>

<tr><td valign=3D"top" width=3D"8"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/co=
m/images/clear.gif" width=3D"8" height=3D"1"></td>

	<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"180">
		=




<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"2" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%" bg=
color=3D"#5289E2">	=

<tr><td valign=3D"top" align=3D"center" class=3D"columnHeaderText" bgcolo=
r=3D"#5289E2"><font color=3D"white">NEWS TOPICS</font></td></tr>
</table>

<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%" cl=
ass=3D"outerBox">	=

	=

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"n=
ewsNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsPhotosHome.jhtm=
l" target=3D"_top">Photos</a></td></tr>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DtopNews" target=3D"_top">Top News</a></td></tr>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DbusinessNews" target=3D"_top">Top Business</a></td></tr>
	=


	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"n=
ewsNavigationChannelsSelected" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel=
=2Ejhtml?type=3DreutersEdge" target=3D"_top">The Reuters Edge</a></td></t=
r>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DworldNews" target=3D"_top">World</a></td></tr>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>


	=

	=

			<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reu=
ters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"new=
sNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?typ=
e=3DdomesticNews" target=3D"_top">US News</a></td></tr>
	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>


	=

	=

	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reute=
rs.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"newsN=
avigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/entertainmentHome.jhtml=
" target=3D"_top">Entertainment</a></td></tr>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=


		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DoddlyEnoughNews" target=3D"_top">Oddly Enough</a></td></tr>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DtechnologyNews" target=3D"_top">Technology</a></td></tr>
	=


	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=



			<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.=
reuters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"=
newsNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/weatherHome.jhtml"=
 target=3D"_top">Weather</a><!--<img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/i=
mages/clear.gif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters=
=2Ecom/com/images/newIcon.gif" width=3D"23" height=3D"8">--></td></tr>





	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DinternetNews" target=3D"_top">Internet</a></td></tr>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannelElection.jh=
tml?type=3DpoliticsNews" target=3D"_top">Elections 2004</a></td></tr>
	=


	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DhealthNews" target=3D"_top">Health</a></td></tr>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1" ></td></tr>
	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DscienceNews" target=3D"_top">Science</a></td></tr>
	=

	=

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=


	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reute=
rs.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"newsN=
avigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=3D=
sportsNews" target=3D"_top">Sports</a></td></tr>


	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=
=3DourWorldNews" target=3D"_top">Our World</a></td></tr>
	=


	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/globalNewsCenter.jhtml=
" target=3D"_top">Global News Center</a></td></tr>
	=


	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	=

	=

		<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"news=
NavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/nationalNewsCenter.jht=
ml" target=3D"_top">National News Center / US</a></td></tr>
	=


	<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"sectionTitleText" bgcolor=3D"FFFFFF"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" h=
eight=3D"1"></td></tr>

	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reute=
rs.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"10" height=3D"10"><a class=3D"newsN=
avigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/-helpSectionContactUs.j=
html" target=3D"_top">Editorial Feedback</a></td></tr>


	=

</table>

		<br class=3D"vertical10">

		=


		=




<table border=3D'0' cellpadding=3D'0' cellspacing=3D'0' align=3D'center'>=
<tr><td valign=3D'top' align=3D'middle'><SCRIPT language=3D"JavaScript1.1=
" SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/articl=
e;abr=3D!webtv;tag=3Dstandard;pos=3Dleft1;sz=3D180x150;ord=3D662823057?">=
</SCRIPT><SCRIPT>if ((!document.images && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Mo=
zilla/2.') >=3D 0) || navigator.userAgent.indexOf("WebTV") >=3D 0) {docum=
ent.write('<A HREF=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/reuters.com.dart/new=
s/picks/article;tag=3Dstandard;pos=3Dleft1;sz=3D180x150;ord=3D662823057?"=
>');document.write('<IMG SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/reuters.com.=
dart/news/picks/article;tag=3Dstandard;pos=3Dleft1;sz=3D180x150;ord=3D662=
823057?" border=3D"0" width=3D"180" height=3D"150"></A>');}</SCRIPT><NOSC=
RIPT><A HREF=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/reuters.com.dart/news/pick=
s/article;tag=3Dstandard;pos=3Dleft1;sz=3D180x150;ord=3D662823057?"><IMG =
SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/article;t=
ag=3Dstandard;pos=3Dleft1;sz=3D180x150;ord=3D662823057?" border=3D"0" wid=
th=3D"180" height=3D"150"></A></NOSCRIPT></td></tr></table>

	=


		<br class=3D"vertical10">
		=

			=


			=

	<table width=3D"180" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" al=
ign=3D"center" class=3D"outerBox" bgcolor=3D"#E7E7E7">
		<tr><td colspan=3D"3" height=3D"3"></td></tr>
		<tr><td width=3D"2">&nbsp;</td>
			<td valign=3D"top">
				<table width=3D"100%" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0=
" align=3D"center">
					<tr><td colspan=3D"3">
						<table width=3D"116" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"=
0" align=3D"center">
							<tr><td colspan=3D"3" align=3D"center"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reu=
ters.com/com/images/televisionTop.gif" height=3D"23" width=3D"116"></td><=
/tr> =

							<tr><td colspan=3D"3" background=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/im=
ages/televisionMiddle.gif" height=3D"75" width=3D"116" align=3D"center" v=
align=3D"middle"><a href=3D"javascript:videoPopup('videoJump.jhtml?linkUR=
L=3Dhttp://reuters.feedroom.com/index.jsp?fr_story%3Dd367c7b4b169de733b37=
4608b1947cc0341417a8')" class=3D"videoHeadline"><img src=3D"http://feedro=
om.speedera.net/www.feedroom.com/t_assets/20040121/c3ed892393e381a8aa438f=
0f759155e3697ace3a.jpg" border=3D"0"></a></td></tr>
							<tr><td colspan=3D"3" align=3D"center"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reu=
ters.com/com/images/televisionBottom.gif" border=3D"0" height=3D"22" widt=
h=3D"116"></td></tr>
							<tr><td colspan=3D"3" height=3D"2"></td></tr>
						</table>
					</td></tr>
					<tr><td class=3D"sideHeadline"><a class=3D"sideHeadline" href=3D"jav=
ascript:videoPopup('videoJump.jhtml?linkURL=3Dhttp://reuters.feedroom.com=
/index.jsp?fr_story%3Dd367c7b4b169de733b374608b1947cc0341417a8')">Has The=
 Bush Campaign Begun?</a></td>
						<td width=3D"2"></td>
						<td width=3D"16" class=3D"sideHeadline"><a class=3D"sideHeadline" h=
ref=3D"javascript:videoPopup('videoJump.jhtml?linkURL=3Dhttp://reuters.fe=
edroom.com/index.jsp?fr_story%3Dd367c7b4b169de733b374608b1947cc0341417a8'=
)"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/videoPlayButton.gif" bo=
rder=3D"0" height=3D"11" width=3D"16"></a></td>
					</tr>
					<tr><td colspan=3D"3" valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC" width=3D"1"=
 height=3D"1"></td></tr>						=

					<tr><td colspan=3D"3" height=3D"2"></td></tr>
					<tr><td class=3D"sideHeadline"><a class=3D"sideHeadline" href=3D"jav=
ascript:videoPopup('videoJump.jhtml?linkURL=3Dhttp://reuters.feedroom.com=
/index.jsp?fr_story%3D278aeeb89619566e8f781bd1a2e562c51f5e60fe')">Bribery=
 Scandal Surrounds Sharon</a></td>
						<td width=3D"2" width=3D"2"></td>
						<td width=3D"16"></td>
					</tr>
					<tr><td colspan=3D"3" height=3D"2"></td></tr> =

					<tr><td colspan=3D"3" valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC" width=3D"1"=
 height=3D"1"></td></tr>						=

					<tr><td colspan=3D"3" height=3D"2"></td></tr>
					<tr><td class=3D"sideHeadline"><a class=3D"sideHeadline" href=3D"jav=
ascript:videoPopup('videoJump.jhtml?linkURL=3Dhttp://reuters.feedroom.com=
/index.jsp?fr_story%3D74ced11d5bcf843334cbb6f3dc3e7b5046209247')">Iranian=
 President Will Not Quit</a></td>
						<td width=3D"2" width=3D"2"></td>
						<td width=3D"16"></td>
					</tr>
					<tr><td colspan=3D"3" height=3D"2"></td></tr>      		=

				</table>
			</td>
			<td width=3D"2"></td>
		</tr>
	</table>


			=

			<br class=3D"vertical10">
		=

		=

		=

			<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"2" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"180" =
bgcol0r=3D"#6B8C64">
			<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"columnHeaderText" bgcolor=3D"#6B8C64">=
<b>&nbsp;<a class=3D"columnHeaderText" href=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?=
type=3DreutersEdge&articlePage=3Dfirstpage" target=3D"_top"><font color=3D=
"#FFFFFF">Reuters Edge Archives</font></a></b></td></tr>
			</table>
	=

			<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"180" =
class=3D"outerBox">
			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
					=


	<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%">
	<form name=3D"dateRange" method=3D"post" action=3D"dateRange.submit()?_D=
ARGS=3D%2FnewsEarlierArticlesHeadlinesDropDown.jhtml" target=3D"_top">
	<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"teaserText"><img src=
=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3=
"></td></tr>
	<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"teaserText" align=3D=
"left">
	=

		=

		<script>
		function archiveArticles(ddChoice)
		{
			if (ddChoice !=3D "")
				location.href=3DddChoice;
		}
		</script>
		<select class=3D"teaserText" name=3D"dateRangeDropDown" onChange=3D"arc=
hiveArticles(this[this.selectedIndex].value);">
			<option value=3D"">Select Date</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-21">
					=


Wed, January 21 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-20">
					=


Tue, January 20 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-19">
					=


Mon, January 19 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-18">
					=


Sun, January 18 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-17">
					=


Sat, January 17 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-16">
					=


Fri, January 16 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-15">
					=


Thu, January 15 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-14">
					=


Wed, January 14 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-13">
					=


Tue, January 13 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-12">
					=


Mon, January 12 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-11">
					=


Sun, January 11 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-10">
					=


Sat, January 10 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-09">
					=


Fri, January 9 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-08">
					=


Thu, January 8 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-07">
					=


Wed, January 7 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-06">
					=


Tue, January 6 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-05">
					=


Mon, January 5 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-04">
					=


Sun, January 4 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-03">
					=


Sat, January 3 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-02">
					=


Fri, January 2 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2004-01-01">
					=


Thu, January 1 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-31">
					=


Wed, December 31 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-30">
					=


Tue, December 30 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-29">
					=


Mon, December 29 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-28">
					=


Sun, December 28 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-27">
					=


Sat, December 27 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-26">
					=


Fri, December 26 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-25">
					=


Thu, December 25 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-24">
					=


Wed, December 24 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-23">
					=


Tue, December 23 =


				</option>
				<option value=3D"newsEarlierArticles.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&article=
Page=3Dfirstpage&dateSelected=3D2003-12-22">
					=


Mon, December 22 =


				</option>
		</select>
	</td></tr>
	<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"teaserText"><img src=
=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"3=
"></td></tr>
	</form>
	</table>	=

	=

			</td></tr>
			</table>

			<br class=3D"vertical10">
			=

			<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"2" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"180" =
bgcolor=3D"#6B8C64">
			=

				<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"columnHeaderText"><b>&nbsp;<a class=3D=
"columnHeaderText" href=3D"newsChannel.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge" target=3D=
"_top"><font color=3D"#FFFFFF">More Reuters Edge Headlines</font></a></b>=
</td></tr>
			</table>
			=

			<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%"=
 class=3D"outerBox">
			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				 	=


<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%" bg=
color=3D"#FFFFFF">

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" colspan=3D"2">
		<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"2" width=3D"100%" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4179140" target=3D"_top">AT&T Wirel=
ess to Set Up Guidelines for Bidders</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadlineSelected" href=3D"n=
ewsArticle.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4181071" target=3D"_top">Li=
nux Marks Slow Progress in Taking Over Desktops</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4181192" target=3D"_top">Scandals S=
een Aiding US-EU Auditor Oversight Pact</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4180321" target=3D"_top">Senator Sa=
ys House Mutual Fund Bill Weak</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4179622" target=3D"_top">Arab Leagu=
e Chief Faults U.S. Policy in Mideast</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4177332" target=3D"_top">Ungaro Joi=
ns Trend for Intimate Paris Couture Shows</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4178432" target=3D"_top">Map of the=
 U.S. Fed Recalls a Bygone Era</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4178656" target=3D"_top">Europe How=
ls at Dollar Drop But U.S. Keeps Smiling</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4179221" target=3D"_top">French Sik=
hs Hopeful About Turbans in School</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
				<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.r=
euters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
				</table>
			</td></tr>

			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a class=3D"alt_sideHeadline" href=3D"newsArtic=
le.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4178515" target=3D"_top">Foreign In=
vestment in EU Falls Short</a>

				</td>
			</tr>

		</table>
	</td></tr>
</table>
			</td></tr>
			</table>

			<br class=3D"vertical10">
		=

			<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"180" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
			<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" colspan=3D"3"><a href=3D"ne=
wsPhotoGallery.jhtml?type=3DtopNews" target=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http://w=
wwi.reuters.com/com/images/photoGalleriesBanner.gif" width=3D"180" height=
=3D"20" border=3D"0"></a></td></tr>
			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
					<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100=
%" class=3D"outerBox">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top">
							=


		<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%">=

	=

		<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reut=
ers.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"5"></td></tr>

	=

				<tr><td valign=3D"top" align=3D"middle" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE">
					=



<script>
function photoPopup(photoUrl) {
	photoPopupWindow =3D window.open(photoUrl,"photoPopup","width=3D540,heig=
ht=3D525,toolbar=3Dno,status=3Dno,resizable=3Dno,scrollbars=3Dyes");
	photoPopupWindow.focus();
}
</script>


		<a class=3D"photoLink" href=3D"newsPhotoGallery.jhtml?type=3DtopNews"><=
img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/images//2004-01-22T062158Z_01_HWI01D_R=
TRIDSP_1_ENVIRONMENT-YOGA.jpg" border=3D"1"></a>
	=

				</td></tr>
			=

			<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reu=
ters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"5"></td></tr>
		</table>

					</td></tr>
					</table>
			</td></tr>
			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a href=3D"newsPhotoGallery.jhtml?type=3DtopNew=
s" target=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/topNews=
PhotoGalleryText.gif" width=3D"180" height=3D"14" border=3D"0"></a></td><=
/tr>
			</TABLE>
		=

			<br class=3D"vertical10">

			<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"180" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a href=3D"slideshowArchives.jhtml?type=3Dslide=
Show" target=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/slid=
eShowsBanner.gif" width=3D"180" height=3D"23" border=3D"0"></a></td></tr>=

			<tr><td valign=3D"top">
					<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100=
%" class=3D"outerBox">
					<tr><td valign=3D"top">
						=


<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"178">
<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#DEEFFF"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuter=
s.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"5"></td></tr>

	<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#DEEFFF" align=3D"middle"><a href=3D"s=
lideshowNoCaptions.jhtml?showid=3D684" target=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http:/=
/wwwi.reuters.com/images/2004-01-22T021701Z_01_SAS16D_RTRIDSP_1_CAMPAIGN-=
EDWARDS.jpg" border=3D"1"></a></td></tr>
	<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#DEEFFF"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reute=
rs.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"10"></td></tr>

</table>
					</td></tr>
					</table>
			</td></tr>
			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><a href=3D"slideshowArchives.jhtml?type=3Dslide=
Show" target=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/toda=
ysSlideshowsText.gif" width=3D"180" height=3D"14" border=3D"0"></a></td><=
/tr>
			</table>
		=

			<br class=3D"vertical10">
		=

		=

		=




<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"2" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"178" bgc=
olor=3D"#42428C">
<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"columnHeaderText" bgcolor=3D"#42428C"><fo=
nt color=3D"#FFFFFF"><b>&nbsp;Related Quotes</b></font></td></tr>
</table>

<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"178">
	=

	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#B2B2DD" colspan=3D"4" align=3D"center" class=3D"mark=
etsSummaryTextTitle">APPLE COMP INC</td></tr>
	<tr><td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><a class=3D"mar=
ketsSummaryTextLink" href=3D"financeQuoteLookup.jhtml?ticker=3DAAPL.O&qty=
pe=3Dsym&infotype=3Dinfo&qcat=3Dquick">AAPL.O</a></td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right">22=
=2E61</td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right"><f=
ont color=3Dred>-0.12</font></td>
		<td valign=3D"middle" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><img src=3D"images/clear.gif"=
 width=3D"2" height=3D"1"><img src=3D'http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
marketsDown.gif' width=3D'7' height=3D'6'></td>
	</tr>
	<tr><td colspan=3D"4" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com=
/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"10"></td></tr>
	=

	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#B2B2DD" colspan=3D"4" align=3D"center" class=3D"mark=
etsSummaryTextTitle">HEWLETT-PACKARD</td></tr>
	<tr><td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><a class=3D"mar=
ketsSummaryTextLink" href=3D"financeQuoteLookup.jhtml?ticker=3DHPQ.N&qtyp=
e=3Dsym&infotype=3Dinfo&qcat=3Dquick">HPQ.N</a></td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right">25=
=2E24</td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right"><f=
ont color=3D'green'>+</font><font color=3Dgreen>0.17</font></td>
		<td valign=3D"middle" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><img src=3D"images/clear.gif"=
 width=3D"2" height=3D"1"><img src=3D'http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
marketsUp.gif' width=3D'7' height=3D'6'></td>
	</tr>
	<tr><td colspan=3D"4" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com=
/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"10"></td></tr>
	=

	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#B2B2DD" colspan=3D"4" align=3D"center" class=3D"mark=
etsSummaryTextTitle">^</td></tr>
	<tr><td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><a class=3D"mar=
ketsSummaryTextLink" href=3D"financeQuoteLookup.jhtml?ticker=3DIBM.N&qtyp=
e=3Dsym&infotype=3Dinfo&qcat=3Dquick">IBM.N</a></td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right">97=
=2E70</td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right"><f=
ont color=3D'green'>+</font><font color=3Dgreen>0.60</font></td>
		<td valign=3D"middle" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><img src=3D"images/clear.gif"=
 width=3D"2" height=3D"1"><img src=3D'http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
marketsUp.gif' width=3D'7' height=3D'6'></td>
	</tr>
	<tr><td colspan=3D"4" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com=
/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"10"></td></tr>
	=

	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#B2B2DD" colspan=3D"4" align=3D"center" class=3D"mark=
etsSummaryTextTitle">^</td></tr>
	<tr><td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><a class=3D"mar=
ketsSummaryTextLink" href=3D"financeQuoteLookup.jhtml?ticker=3DMSFT.O&qty=
pe=3Dsym&infotype=3Dinfo&qcat=3Dquick">MSFT.O</a></td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right">28=
=2E30</td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right"><f=
ont color=3D'green'>+</font><font color=3Dgreen>0.20</font></td>
		<td valign=3D"middle" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><img src=3D"images/clear.gif"=
 width=3D"2" height=3D"1"><img src=3D'http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
marketsUp.gif' width=3D'7' height=3D'6'></td>
	</tr>
	<tr><td colspan=3D"4" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com=
/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"10"></td></tr>
	=

	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#B2B2DD" colspan=3D"4" align=3D"center" class=3D"mark=
etsSummaryTextTitle">^</td></tr>
	<tr><td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><a class=3D"mar=
ketsSummaryTextLink" href=3D"financeQuoteLookup.jhtml?ticker=3DNOVL.O&qty=
pe=3Dsym&infotype=3Dinfo&qcat=3Dquick">NOVL.O</a></td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right">12=
=2E42</td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right"><f=
ont color=3D'green'>+</font><font color=3Dgreen>0.01</font></td>
		<td valign=3D"middle" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><img src=3D"images/clear.gif"=
 width=3D"2" height=3D"1"><img src=3D'http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
marketsUp.gif' width=3D'7' height=3D'6'></td>
	</tr>
	<tr><td colspan=3D"4" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com=
/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"10"></td></tr>
	=

	<tr><td bgcolor=3D"#B2B2DD" colspan=3D"4" align=3D"center" class=3D"mark=
etsSummaryTextTitle">^</td></tr>
	<tr><td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><a class=3D"mar=
ketsSummaryTextLink" href=3D"financeQuoteLookup.jhtml?ticker=3DRHAT.O&qty=
pe=3Dsym&infotype=3Dinfo&qcat=3Dquick">RHAT.O</a></td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right">21=
=2E23</td>
		<td class=3D"marketsSummaryText" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE" align=3D"right"><f=
ont color=3D'green'>+</font><font color=3Dgreen>1.16</font></td>
		<td valign=3D"middle" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEEE"><img src=3D"images/clear.gif"=
 width=3D"2" height=3D"1"><img src=3D'http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
marketsUp.gif' width=3D'7' height=3D'6'></td>
	</tr>
	<tr><td colspan=3D"4" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com=
/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"10"></td></tr>

	<tr><td colspan=3D"4" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com=
/com/images/greyLine.gif" width=3D"178" height=3D"1"></td></tr>
		<tr><td colspan=3D"4" class=3D"marketsSummaryText" align=3D"center">At =
least 20 minutes delayed</td></tr>
</table>


	</td>
	=

	<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"8"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/i=
mages/clear.gif" width=3D"8" height=3D"1"></td>
	=

	<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"100%">
		=


<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#EEEEE=
E" width=3D"100%">

		<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"category_banners">&nbsp;<a class=3D"fin=
anceLink" href=3D"home.jhtml" target=3D"_top">Home</a> &gt; <a class=3D"n=
ewsHeadline" href=3D"news.jhtml" target=3D"_top">News</a> &gt; <a class=3D=
"newsHeadline" href=3D"newsChannel.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge" target=3D"_t=
op">Reuters Edge</a> &gt; <font color=3D"#000000">Article</font></td></tr=
>
	=


</table>

		<br class=3D"vertical5">

		<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%">=

		=

			<tr>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"columnHeaderText" bgcolor=3D"#000000"><a =
class=3D"columnHeaderText" href=3D"newsChannel.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge" =
target=3D"_top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/reutersEdg=
eBanner.gif" width=3D"340" height=3D"27" border=3D"0"></a></td>
				=

			</tr>
		=

		</table>

		<br class=3D"vertical5">		=


		 =




<script>
function newsOptionsPopup(newsOptionsUrl) =

{
	photoPopupWindow =3D window.open(newsOptionsUrl,"newsOptionsPopup","widt=
h=3D540,height=3D525,toolbar=3Dno,status=3Dno,resizable=3Dno,scrollbars=3D=
yes");
	photoPopupWindow.focus();
}
</script>

<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%" bg=
color=3D"#FFFFFF">
<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"teaserText">
	=

	<!-- MARKET NAME -->
	=

	=

	<!-- AD -->
	<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" align=3D"right">=

		<tr><td valign=3D"top">
			=




<table border=3D'0' cellpadding=3D'0' cellspacing=3D'0' align=3D'center'>=
<tr><td valign=3D'top' align=3D'middle'><SCRIPT language=3D"JavaScript1.1=
" SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/articl=
e;abr=3D!webtv;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D120x600;ptile=3D2;ord=3D662823057?"></=
SCRIPT><SCRIPT>if ((!document.images && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Mozi=
lla/2.') >=3D 0) || navigator.userAgent.indexOf("WebTV") >=3D 0) {documen=
t.write('<A HREF=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/reuters.com.dart/news/=
picks/article;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D120x600;ptile=3D2;ord=3D662823057?">');=
document.write('<IMG SRC=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/reuters.com.dart=
/news/picks/article;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D120x600;ptile=3D2;ord=3D662823057=
?" border=3D"0" width=3D"120" height=3D"600"></A>');}</SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT><=
A HREF=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/arti=
cle;tag=3Dstandard;sz=3D120x600;ptile=3D2;ord=3D662823057?"><IMG SRC=3D"h=
ttp://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/reuters.com.dart/news/picks/article;tag=3Dsta=
ndard;sz=3D120x600;ptile=3D2;ord=3D662823057?" border=3D"0" width=3D"120"=
 height=3D"600"></A></NOSCRIPT></td></tr></table>

	=

		</td></tr>
	</table>

	<!-- VNU LOGOS -->
	=

				=

	<!-- HEADLINE -->
	<span class=3D"storyHeadline"><b>Linux Marks Slow Progress in Taking Ove=
r Desktops</b></span>
	<br>
		=

	<!-- TIME STAMP -->
	=

			<span class=3D"newsTimeStamp"><i>
			=


Wed January 21, 2004 06:19 PM ET
</i></span><br>
		=


	<!-- PAGINATION -->
	=

			<div class=3D"teaserTextB">(Page 1 of 2)</div>
		=

	<!-- IMAGES -->
	=

	=



		=

	<!-- STORY TEXT -->
	By Eric Auchard

				<P>NEW YORK (Reuters) - As never before, corporate customers  are tur=
ning to Linux software instead of Microsoft Windows to  run big business =
operations.

				<P>Now, if only they could get the word processor's basic "cut  and p=
aste" feature to work.

				<P>At the LinuxWorld trade show here this week, advocates said  the n=
ext big challenge for the loose-knit "free software"  movement is to crea=
te a reliable way to run desktop computers  and perform mainstream office=
 tasks.

				<P>"It works 98 percent of the time. But it's the 2 percent of  the t=
ime it doesn't that kills you," Jeremy White, a leading  developer of Lin=
ux applications, told an audience of network  administrators.

				<P>Even some of its biggest proponents admit that Linux has a  long w=
ay to go before it can mount a credible alternative to  Microsoft Windows=
, the world's dominant software operating  system.

				<P>"Linux desktops need a little more work to be consistent,"  said J=
ack Messman, chairman and chief executive of Novell Inc.  "I don't know h=
ow much of that will come about this year."

				<P>His 20-year-old network software company, with two  acquisitions o=
f high-profile Linux companies in the past year,  has become the No. 2 in=
dependent supplier of Linux software.

				<P>"It's a big pile of lumber with no agreed-upon standards,"  compla=
ined White, president of St. Paul, Minnesota-based  software company Code=
Weavers.

				<P>Linux relies on a network of independent programmers to  improve i=
ts software. Its users are required to share the  computer code they crea=
te.

				<P>This is a dramatic shift from traditional secretive  software deve=
lopment. But it has won a wide and growing fan  base among computer progr=
ammers, academics, corporate customers  and government agencies in develo=
ping countries.

				<P>The trouble for Linux is that it must move quickly to  create a cr=
edible alternative to Windows. Analysts say Linux  has a window of opport=
unity before Microsoft's next major  operating system is released sometim=
e around 2006.

				&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<b><a class=3D"storyOptionsText" href=3D"newsArticl=
e.jhtml?type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4181071&pageNumber=3D1">Continued ..=
=2E</a></b>
	=

	<!-- PAGINATION -->
	=

			<table align=3D"right" border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"5" cellspacing=3D"1=
">
			<tr>
				<td class=3D"teaserTextB">
				&nbsp;
				</td>
				<td class=3D"teaserTextB">	=

				=

							<span class=3D"pagination">1</span>|
							<a class=3D"storyOptionsText" href=3D"newsArticle.jhtml?type=3Dreu=
tersEdge&storyID=3D4181071&pageNumber=3D1">2</a>	=

				</td>
				<td class=3D"teaserTextB">
				=

						<a class=3D"storyOptionsText" href=3D"newsArticle.jhtml?type=3Dreut=
ersEdge&storyID=3D4181071&pageNumber=3D1">Next</a>
				</td>
			</tr>
			</table>
</td></tr>

<!-- COPYRIGHT -->

		<tr>
			<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"smalltext">
				<script>
					var year =3D new Date()
					document.write('&#169; Reuters ' + year.getFullYear() + '. All Right=
s Reserved.');
				</script>
			</td>
		</tr>
		<tr><td valign=3D"top" height=3D"2" width=3D"1"></td></tr>
<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"columnHeaderText" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC"><im=
g src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=
=3D"1"></td></tr>
<tr><td valign=3D"top" width=3D"1" height=3D"2"></td></tr>
<tr><td valign=3D"top">

		<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" align=3D"left">=

		<tr><td valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/image=
s/emailThisArticleIcon.gif" width=3D"14" height=3D"10"></td>
			<td valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/c=
lear.gif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"></td>
			<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"storyOptionsText"><a class=3D"storyOptions=
Text" href=3D"javascript:newsOptionsPopup('emailPopup.jhtml?type=3Dreuter=
sEdge&type=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4181071')">Email this Article</a></td>=

			<td valign=3D"middle" class=3D"teaserText"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reu=
ters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1">|<img src=3D"http=
://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"></td>
			<td valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/p=
rinterFriendlyIcon.gif" width=3D"14" height=3D"12"></td>
			<td valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/c=
lear.gif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"></td>
			<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"storyOptionsText"><a class=3D"storyOptions=
Text" href=3D"javascript:newsOptionsPopup('printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?typ=
e=3DreutersEdge&storyID=3D4181071')">Print this Article</a></td>
			=

				<td valign=3D"middle" class=3D"teaserText"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.re=
uters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1">|<img src=3D"htt=
p://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"></td>=

				<td valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
iCopyrightIcon.gif" width=3D"15" height=3D"15"></td>
				<td valign=3D"middle"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
clear.gif" width=3D"5" height=3D"1"></td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"storyOptionsText"><a class=3D"storyOption=
sText" href=3D"javascript:newsOptionsPopup('http://www.icopyright.com/3.5=
398?icx_id=3D4181071')">Purchase for Reprint</a></td>
			=

		</tr>
		</table>
</td></tr>
</table>


		=

	</td>

	<!-- BUFFER -->
	<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"8"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/i=
mages/clear.gif" width=3D"8" height=3D"1"></td>
</tr>
</table>

<br class=3D"vertical10">




<script>
function emailPopup(url) {
	popupWindow =3D window.open(url,"emailPopup","width=3D540,height=3D525,t=
oolbar=3Dno,status=3Dno,resizable=3Dno,scrollbars=3Dyes");
	popupWindow.focus();
}

</script>
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"100%" bg=
color=3D"#666666">
	<tr><td valign=3D"top" colspan=3D"2">
		<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"3" cellspacing=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#666=
666">
			<tr><td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/=
bottomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://about.reuters.com" target=3D"_new">=
About Reuters</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://about.reuters.com/careers/" target=3D=
"_new">Careers</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://about.reuters.com/products/" target=
=3D"_new">Products &amp; Services</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.alertnet.org" target=3D"_new">A=
lertNet</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.co.uk" target=3D"_top">=
Reuters.co.uk</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.co.jp" target=3D"_top">=
Reuters.co.jp</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.de" target=3D"_top">Reu=
ters.de</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/media" target=3D"_n=
ew">Buy Reuters News</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://about.reuters.com/pictures/pictures=
/prints" target=3D"_new">Buy Reuters Pictures</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannels"><a class=3D"bot=
tomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/-helpSectionAdverti=
sing.jhtml" target=3D"_top">Advertise</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/bot=
tomNavigationDivider.gif" width=3D"3" height=3D"15"></td>

			</tr>
		</table>
		</td>
	</tr>
	<tr><td valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#CCCCCC" colspan=3D"2"><img src=3D"htt=
p://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/clear.gif" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"></td>=
</tr>
	<tr><td valign=3D"top">
		<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"3" cellspacing=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#666=
666">
			<tr><td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall"><a clas=
s=3D"bottomNavigationChannels" href=3D"javascript:emailPopup('http://www.=
reuters.com/bottomDisclaimer.jhtml')">Disclaimer</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall">|</td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall"><a class=3D=
"bottomNavigationChannels" href=3D"javascript:emailPopup('http://www.reut=
ers.com/bottomCopyright.jhtml')">Copyright</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall">|</td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall"><a class=3D=
"bottomNavigationChannels" href=3D"javascript:emailPopup('http://www.reut=
ers.com/bottomPrivacy.jhtml')">Privacy</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall">|</td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall"><a class=3D=
"bottomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/correctionsEarl=
ierArticles.jhtml" target=3D"_top">Corrections</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall">|</td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall"><a class=3D=
"bottomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/-helpSectionWha=
tsNew.jhtml" target=3D"_top">Help &amp; Info</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall">|</td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall"><a class=3D=
"bottomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/-helpSectionCon=
tactUs.jhtml" target=3D"_top">Contact Us</a></td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall">|</td>
				<td valign=3D"top" class=3D"bottomNavigationChannelsSmall"><a class=3D=
"bottomNavigationChannels" href=3D"http://www.reuters.com/-helpSectionCon=
tactUs.jhtml" target=3D"_top">Editorial Feedback</a></td>
			</tr>
		</table>
		</td>
		<td align=3D"right"><img src=3D"http://wwwi.reuters.com/com/images/foot=
erLogo.gif" width=3D"83" height=3D"14"></td>
	</tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>
--------------83514FFB5FC804E7A05DB999--

0
1/22/2004 8:45:31 AM
comp.os.linux.hardware 9621 articles. 0 followers. Post Follow

187 Replies
1727 Views

Similar Articles

[PageSpeed] 32

-J-C- wrote:

> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071

oke doke...

after checking the article actually exists at the given url:

"Now, if only they could get the word processor's basic "cut and paste"
feature to work."

1) I just copied and pasted that from the article
2) Either he is just making it up, or he doesnt know how to use his mouse,
or is assuming the keyboard shortcuts are the same as windows - which they
are if you tell it to - he probably doesn't know how
3) GPM works for just about anything - select text, middle click where you
want to paste it.

"It's a big pile of lumber with no agreed-upon standards," complained White,
president of St. Paul, Minnesota-based software company CodeWeavers. 

LSB, FHS etc - united linux is a proposed standard (although not popular atm
as SCO is a member, however so is SUSE)
how about windows's open standards?
1) Active Directory
2) NTFS
etc

"Linux desktops need a little more work to be consistent," said Jack
Messman, chairman and chief executive of Novell Inc. "I don't know how much
of that will come about this year."

Consistency - just look at SUSE or RedHat bluecurve - how more consistent
can you get?

Windows - most popular "home user" programs are skinned, to be inconsistent
with their desktop eg winamp, even windows media player!

"Its users are required to share the computer code they create."

Bullshit. It's users are required to share the computer code they create
only if they CHOOSE to license it under a gpl-style license.

"Office documents created using Microsoft Windows PCs can be saved and
reopened on Linux PCs without suffering the sort of software conflicts that
cause programs to crash. This mundane compatibility is a crucial test of
Linux's viability as a potential replacement for Windows. "

More specifically - "software conflicts that cause programs to crash" - 
what is this to do with running MS Office? i have never had a problem with
an MS office document in OOo 1.1

"Market research company International Data Corp., of Framingham,
Massachusetts, estimates that paid shipments of Linux rose to 2.8 percent
of desktop operating systems in 2002, up from 1.7 percent two years
earlier. But that is still below the approximately 3 percent share of No. 2
ranked Apple Computer Inc., which more than a decade ago gave up trying to
compete directly with Microsoft. "

note "paid shipments" - ie this is completely ignoring people who have:
1) Done an FTP install of something like SuSE
2) Downloaded ISO images
3) Installed from a friends cd


Looks like the author has no idea what they are talking about.

Fred
0
pcfreak65 (50)
1/22/2004 9:18:04 AM
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:45:31 -0800, <-J-C-> wrote:

> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071

Yup. Looks like a bunch of spam to me alright.
Who's paid the author: CodeWeavers or Xandros ?

FWIW: i have been useing either: Slackware, Debian, Mandrake, SuSE or
RedHat Linux distros for some years now. And don't have _any_ of the
problems the article talks about ...

Ofcource, i'm _not_ looking for some kind of click-a-di-click MS-Windows
on steroids, MS-Office running hybrid. Rather something that works for me.

ATM, "desktop" apps: FVWM2, gvim, Xman, Mozilla, Pan, XMMS and Xine.
working fine!

> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <html>

Please, stick with plain text - in these groups.

[ ... ]

-- 
-Menno.

0
menno1 (77)
1/22/2004 10:03:37 AM
This was crossposted to:

alt.os.linux.slackware
alt.os.linux.suse
comp.os.linux.hardware
comp.os.linux.networking
comp.os.linux.x
comp.os.linux.security

As far as I can tell, it is off-topic in every newsgroup it was
posted to.

I can't speak for other groups, but could those who reply please 
trim alt.os.linux.slackware from the newsgroups line?  Thanks!

(Followups set to comp.os.linux.advocacy)

-- 
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire. 
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you 
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like 
Doc Brown can solve?  My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/ 

0
Guy
1/22/2004 2:41:59 PM
-J-C- wrote:

> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071

Blah Blah Blah.
I don't care.  I prefer Linux to Windows for my own reasons.  I don't hate
windows or Microsoft, but I have found Linux to be more stable and secure
than Windows.
I don't care if it becomes a major OS.  It's already *my* major OS.

-- 
Play Rogue, visit exotic locations, meet strange creatures and kill them.

0
NeoSadist
1/22/2004 4:45:45 PM
NeoSadist <neosad1st@charter.net> writes:

(Hmm, two followups and I still haven't seen the original article. Maybe
this is a blessing.)

> -J-C- wrote:
>
>> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071
>
> Blah Blah Blah. I don't care. I prefer Linux to Windows for my own
> reasons. I don't hate windows or Microsoft, but I have found Linux to be
> more stable and secure than Windows. I don't care if it becomes a major
> OS. It's already *my* major OS.

That article is full of FUD, and where it's not full of that, it's full of
shit... 

OK, I'll bite.

 | "Linux desktops need a little more work to be consistent,"

Of course they would. We have choice, we know what we're doing with the
utilities we employ, we don't need consistency. What are we aiming for,
Windoze?

 | Linux relies on a network of independent programmers to improve its
 | software. Its users are required to share the computer code they create.

Linux is distributed under the GPL, which explicitly makes no statements
concerning what users must do, only being concerned with distribution etc.

 | The trouble for Linux is that it must move quickly to create a credible
 | alternative to Windows. 

(a) do I look like I want another windoze? 
(b) Linux must not do anything.
(c) do you mean windoze on the desktop or windoze pretending to be a viable
    server platform?
(d) do I have to get the desktop-related security flaws too?

And finally, Windoze is not the competition; windoze is no competition. I
could do everything I wanted on a GNU/Linux desktop, and more, for free.
But...

It is only now that I've converted to the Mac that I see where GNU/Linux,
as a whole, lacks; I'm unaware of anywhere to control gamma or r/g/b
settings within X (windoze has some, if you're lucky enough for your video
driver to provide; Mac has it as standard), I absolutely hate the
resolution-changing system (either configure X with all resolution you want
to use, or restart all X apps? you're kidding?); don't tell me "this is
possible", but show me it working: a linux box, with wifi networking,
bluetooth synchronizing with PDA and mobile phone, with notifications of
incoming phonecalls and ability to process SMSs on the desktop as they come
in. What about support for my firewire webcam, and an auto-uploader to my
website? (Even over ssh, this is entirely possible on the Mac.) What about
watching TV on the desktop? Sure it's possible on linux, but it's not
necessarily an easy process.

This is the way to go; Mac OS X is just gorgeous, the hybrid BSD/Mac system
gives me positive bits from two worlds. Leave the corporate desktop where
it belongs - still glowing evil blue with all the office lights off in the
dark of night. Let's make GNU/Linux a viable contender for being a *good*
and *complete* desktop, and sod the competition. Right?

~Tim
-- 
Statistically, most thieves steal           |piglet@stirfried.vegetable.org.uk
from other poor people. Robin Hood stole    |http://spodzone.org.uk/cesspit/
only from the rich and was a hero.          |
(from <http://www.thegamesjournal.com/>)    |
0
Tim
1/22/2004 6:18:45 PM
"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message
news:tsCdnanaybKkfJLdRVn-hQ@speakeasy.net...
>
> This was crossposted to:
>
> alt.os.linux.slackware
> alt.os.linux.suse
> comp.os.linux.hardware
> comp.os.linux.networking
> comp.os.linux.x
> comp.os.linux.security
>
> As far as I can tell, it is off-topic in every newsgroup it was
> posted to.
>
> I can't speak for other groups, but could those who reply please
> trim alt.os.linux.slackware from the newsgroups line?  Thanks!
>
> (Followups set to comp.os.linux.advocacy)

It was a Microsoft-paid announcement of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt by
someone clearly too stupid to be allowed to post to Usenet. It was a binary
(HTML) format on text-only newsgroups, it was the illegally duplicated
contents of a news article instead of a URL pointing to the article, and in
general was typical of the technical awareness and sensitivity of the people
paid to write "Windows r00lz, d00dz!" articles in magazines paid for by
Windows advertising.


0
nkadel3 (631)
1/23/2004 2:14:08 AM
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 06:41:59 -0800, Guy Macon wrote:

> 
> This was crossposted to:
> 
> alt.os.linux.slackware
> alt.os.linux.suse
> comp.os.linux.hardware
> comp.os.linux.networking
> comp.os.linux.x
> comp.os.linux.security
> 
> As far as I can tell, it is off-topic in every newsgroup it was posted to.
> 
> I can't speak for other groups, but could those who reply please trim
> alt.os.linux.slackware from the newsgroups line?  Thanks!
> 
> (Followups set to comp.os.linux.advocacy)

i simply can't wait to see a the sun java desktop and then have a
discussion about it

-- 
Best Regards,

 Dr. Chandra

0
Dr
1/23/2004 3:24:24 PM
"Nico Kadel-Garcia" <nkadel@comcast.net> writes:

> It was a binary (HTML) format on text-only newsgroups.

I do not support HTML in newsgroups, but HTML is not a binary format
in any reasonable sense of the word.  It is plain text (if not too
easily readable by humans).

-- 
"A set having three members is a single thing wholly constituted by
its members but distinct from them.  After this, the theological
doctrine of the Trinity as 'three in one' should be child's play."
                            --Max Black, _Caveats and Critiques_
0
jesse18 (2492)
1/23/2004 5:22:27 PM
Of course, when a major OS is ready for the market, is largely a
matter of opinion and there are many opinions out there.  For
instance, the command-line worker vs the GUI user.  But I found a good
measure on this topic in the February issue of Linux Journal.  See Doc
Searls piece there, starting page 48.

Included in that, is mention of something that happened back in 2000
-- going on 4 years ago.  It refers to a Microsoft Gestapo, oops, BSA
raid on Ernie Ball, a business operated by Sterling Ball, which found
"unauthorized pirated" software in some machines there.  I found good
further information on this matter by doing a Google on "Ernie Ball
BSA" but if Microsoft has been able to reach in there, that may no
longer be available.  Anyhow, the story there is *ugly*.  And it's
required reading by any small business operator who seriously cares
for his business.

But the key point is, after the "legal" action ended (costing the
company about $100,000), Sterling Ball made a change in his company:
all Microsoft software *out*.  Complete conversion to open-source
software.  And guess what: he's doing fine, and he's insured the very
best way against further attacks from Microsoft.

A key point.  He mentions he'd been using BSA self-auditing software
-- and it failed.  (Maybe Microsoft wrote it?)

Anyhow, if a nontechie business owner could change over to open-source
software in 2000, what's out there today has to be a lot better.  And
that's why I question that "Linux has a long way to go before it
becomes the major OS."

Cheers -- Martha Adams


0
mha22 (147)
1/23/2004 5:43:06 PM
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.hardware.]
On 2004-01-22, <-J-C-> <NO_NO_jaa_cee_@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> --------------83514FFB5FC804E7A05DB999
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[and so on, for over eighteen-hundred friggin' lines of marked-up text]

Was that really necessary?  Couldn't you have summarized and provided a 
simple link to the article?  Or is that beyond the capabilities of the 
cut-n-paste generation? 

-- 
John (JohnThompson@new.rr.com)
0
john5722 (447)
1/24/2004 12:08:28 AM
The author may not have any idea, but he is right.

Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.

Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
spent the last week or so, on and off trying to install mplayer, and I
still can't do it, and I still don't know why.

See this thread for more info....
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=40101f73.8755188%40news21.on.aibn.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DNarsil%2Bgroup:alt.os.linux.slackware%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.os.linux.slackware%26selm%3D40101f73.8755188%2540news21.on.aibn.com%26rnum%3D1

I'm not saying that linux (any distro) is a bad thing, but until it
can be used by your average windows user, without having to ask a guru
how the hell you do stuff(like installing packages), Linux will never
rival Windows on the desktop.

I want to like linux, but at the moment it's rather hard.

(A rather frutrated) TomN
0
1/24/2004 10:01:42 PM
featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil) writes:

> The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
> 
> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
> 
> Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
> talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
> of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
> spent the last week or so, on and off trying to install mplayer, and I
> still can't do it, and I still don't know why.
> 
> See this thread for more info....
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=40101f73.8755188%40news21.on.aibn.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DNarsil%2Bgroup:alt.os.linux.slackware%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.os.linux.slackware%26selm%3D40101f73.8755188%2540news21.on.aibn.com%26rnum%3D1
> 
I feel sorry for your troubles.

All the software install for me on my gentoo box has been

emerge <required package>

That's all.  This even beats those damn installers that winblows has.
Winblows installer don't tell you what it is doing, emerge tells me
exactly where it's at. 

> I'm not saying that linux (any distro) is a bad thing, but until it
> can be used by your average windows user, without having to ask a guru
> how the hell you do stuff(like installing packages), Linux will never
> rival Windows on the desktop.
> 
> I want to like linux, but at the moment it's rather hard.
> 
> (A rather frutrated) TomN

-- 
- Pankaj

----------------------------------------------------------------------
	    One OS to rule them all, one OS to find them,
       One OS to bring them all and in the darkness bind them,
	    In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
0
1/24/2004 10:40:00 PM
featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil) writes:

> The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
>
> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.

What many people fail to realize is that the objective of Linux is not
to maximize the number of installations.

> Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
> talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
> of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
> spent the last week or so, on and off trying to install mplayer, and I
> still can't do it, and I still don't know why.

mplayer is one of the trickier programs to do anything at all with.
If all you want to do is play some movies, go get xine.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
1/24/2004 10:51:22 PM
Clinging to sanity, featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil) mumbled into her beard:
> The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
>
> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.

It already _has_ taken off, as many of us have been making it useful
for a goodly decade now.

It is useful to us irrespective of whether someone wants to make up
some "fight" between it and Microsoft, or whether or not you find it
useful yet.

(A rather frutrated) Christopher Browne
-- 
output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "ntlug.org")
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/finances.html
Signs of a Klingon Programmer #7: "Klingon function  calls do not have
'parameters' -- they have 'arguments' -- and they ALWAYS WIN THEM."
0
cbbrowne (1108)
1/25/2004 12:14:24 AM
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:51:22 +0100, M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:

> mplayer is one of the trickier programs to do anything at all with. If
> all you want to do is play some movies, go get xine.

 Depends upon the distro. A simple "apt-get install mplayer" was all it
 took on my Debian box. On my Mandrake box...that is a different story in
 itself. ;) I think that I invented some new obscenities before I got
 mplayer to install and work under Mandrake.
0
Renegade
1/25/2004 12:16:36 AM
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:
> Clinging to sanity, featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil) mumbled into her beard:
> > The author may not have any idea, but he is right.

> > Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take
> > off.

> It already _has_ taken off, as many of us have been making it
> useful for a goodly decade now.

No, it most certainly has not taken off, although the ibm campaign
should make some people see it as an alternative server.

> It is useful to us irrespective of whether someone wants to make
> up some "fight" between it and Microsoft, or whether or not you
> find it useful yet.

But the issue is whether linux is better in all respects to
microsoft.  Many on here will argue that it is.

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
1/25/2004 12:24:55 AM
Christopher Browne wrote:
> Clinging to sanity, featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil) mumbled into her beard:
> 
>>The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
>>
>>Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
> 
> 
> It already _has_ taken off, as many of us have been making it useful
> for a goodly decade now.
> 
> It is useful to us irrespective of whether someone wants to make up
> some "fight" between it and Microsoft, or whether or not you find it
> useful yet.

Yes, it taken off since, it was first released on the internet; and it's 
network aware x-window system is definitely better then WinDOS. Windows 
is beautyfull on the face and ugly internally, whereas Linux is open, 
transparent, smart, efficient and what not ...

Plz read http://anu.homelinux.net/watch/?linux.html

I don't hate Windows, but love and use Linux; both as a desktop even on 
my Dell Inspiron 4150 notebook, home PC and many servers at my work places.

-- 
Dr Balwinder Singh Dheeman
"Linux is much much better, but not the best as yet.
Do you too work on making a difference?"

0
1/25/2004 1:30:46 AM
On 24 Jan 2004 14:01:42 -0800, featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil)
wrote:

>The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
>
>Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
>
>Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
>talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
>of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've

That part right there indicates that you're a troll.  It takes far
longer than that just to install an application - any application. I
don't think you can even create the useless user login that doesn't
impact who can actually use the computer in that amount of time...

(I exclude actually installing windows itself because many people
don't - they just take whatever the computer manufacturer gives them
and think that that's all there is.)

So - now that you've shot your credibility, go away.

Mike-

Mornings:  Evolution in action.  Only the grumpy will survive.
-----------------------------------------------------

Please note - Due to the intense volume of spam, we have
installed site-wide spam filters at catherders.com.  If
email from you bounces, try non-HTML, non-encoded, 
non-attachments.


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
0
cocke (411)
1/25/2004 2:12:25 AM
"Narsil" <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:379178f1.0401241401.1e13a3ec@posting.google.com...
> The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
>
> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
....
> I'm not saying that linux (any distro) is a bad thing, but until it
> can be used by your average windows user, without having to ask a guru
> how the hell you do stuff(like installing packages), Linux will never
> rival Windows on the desktop.

I see your point, but I also know that there ARE Linux distros out there
that are very easy to use--I got one for my 78-year-old father-in-law last
year.  He's a very smart man--used to be a math professor--but when it comes
to computing, let's just say he's at a very basic level.  He's had several
'Doze machines, but when he needed a new computer last year I recommended a
Lindows box.  He adapted to it quite quickly and has managed to use it for
all his day-to-day tasks, including e-mail, spreadsheets, web browsing, word
processing, and so on.

Personally, I've been an *ix SysAdmin and programmer since the Tandy Xenix
days of the '80s, so nothing intimidates me, but I DO see how it can be
frustrating and intimidating to try using an OS that's much more complex
than what one's used to.  But the upshot of it is that once you do get
comfortable with Linux, you're going to be thrilled to be rid of all the
Micro$haft bugs and hassles--to say nothing of constant crashes and constant
upgrading (for huge fees)!  You might want to experiment with several
distros until you find one that's better suited to you.

--

"I don't do windows!"
and other anti-Micro$haft items
www.SmartAssProducts.com


0
1/25/2004 5:17:19 AM
In article <pan.2004.01.25.00.16.36.452819@t.all>, Renegade wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:51:22 +0100, M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
> 
>> mplayer is one of the trickier programs to do anything at all with. If
>> all you want to do is play some movies, go get xine.
> 
>  Depends upon the distro. A simple "apt-get install mplayer" was all it
>  took on my Debian box. On my Mandrake box...that is a different story in
>  itself. ;) I think that I invented some new obscenities before I got
>  mplayer to install and work under Mandrake.

On my mandrake box, it took 'urpmi mplayer' to get it. I had to set up a
repository first that has it of course (the PLF source, they have lots of
goodies with more or less questionable licensing). Debian doesn't have it
either, you must have set up the Marillat sources or something else for
that (I sure did).

-- 
Juha Siltala
http://www.edu.helsinki.fi/activity/people/jsiltala/
0
Juha
1/25/2004 10:17:49 AM
On 2004-01-24, Narsil <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
>
> Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
> talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
> of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.

Unless you're talking about installing Windows itself, which can take the 
better part of an hour, requires seveal reboots, and often fails to find 
or properly configure for your hardware.

Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more 
quickly and easily than Windows.

-- 

-John (JohnThompson@new.rr.com)
0
john5722 (447)
1/25/2004 4:08:38 PM
John Thompson wrote:

>
> 
> Unless you're talking about installing Windows itself, which can take the
> better part of an hour, requires seveal reboots, and often fails to find
> or properly configure for your hardware.
> 
> Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more
> quickly and easily than Windows.
> 
I can second that. Installed a new ISDN modem this side and eventually just
gave up trying to install it in XP. WTH I only go online with Linux in any
way so just could not be botherd to do it. Funny thing about windows..after
you stopped using it..you dont really miss it at all
0
nobody49 (224)
1/25/2004 4:46:41 PM
Narsil wrote:
[...]
> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
> 
> Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
> talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
> of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
> spent the last week or so, on and off trying to install mplayer, and I
> still can't do it, and I still don't know why.
[...]

some will argue that a major reason we all have so much trouble with
hacking, trojans, viri, whathaveyou, is that windoze also facilitates
'get on the net in a newyork minute' and people can engage in
minute-brained activity.

in some respects it may be good that Linux isn't as easy to install
or use as is windoze.

0
NoSpam4Me (100)
1/25/2004 10:22:24 PM
John Thompson wrote:
> On 2004-01-24, Narsil <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]

> Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more 
> quickly and easily than Windows.
> 

That's a myth, I'm afraid. First, if the machine has any unusual 
hardware, Linux may well struggle to recognize it. Second, the fun only 
starts after the installation which is admittedly pretty quick. But once 
the stuff is installed, the new user is immediately thrown into the deep 
end when trying to configure his installation for the first time because 
Linux still lacks many of the easy system configuration tools Windows 
users take for granted. I mean, with SuSE take two examples: a new user 
first has to work out that Yast means Control Panels (or bits of them, 
anyway) and then that Sax2 means Display. He may then also find he can't 
play DVDs (SuSE) or MP3s (Red Hat), with perhaps no references to them 
in the manuals, and is presented with several different configurators 
for his sound card but no instructions on which one to use. While 
fiddling with all the above, the new users has constantly to log in and 
out on the gui as the root user because he doesn't yet know how to use 
the console. None of this is remotely intuitive unless you know already 
know what to do. The Linux learning curve remains extremely steep.

:)

Fish
0
fish9827 (2)
1/25/2004 11:51:48 PM
Fish <fish@gower1513.com> writes:

> John Thompson wrote:
> > On 2004-01-24, Narsil <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> > Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more 
> > quickly and easily than Windows.
> > 
> 
> That's a myth, I'm afraid. First, if the machine has any unusual 
> hardware, Linux may well struggle to recognize it. Second, the fun only 
> starts after the installation which is admittedly pretty quick. But once 
> the stuff is installed, the new user is immediately thrown into the deep 
> end when trying to configure his installation for the first time because 
> Linux still lacks many of the easy system configuration tools Windows 
> users take for granted. I mean, with SuSE take two examples: a new user 
> first has to work out that Yast means Control Panels (or bits of them, 
> anyway) and then that Sax2 means Display. He may then also find he can't 
> play DVDs (SuSE) or MP3s (Red Hat), with perhaps no references to them 
> in the manuals, and is presented with several different configurators 
> for his sound card but no instructions on which one to use. While 
> fiddling with all the above, the new users has constantly to log in and 
> out on the gui as the root user because he doesn't yet know how to use 
> the console. None of this is remotely intuitive unless you know already 
> know what to do. The Linux learning curve remains extremely steep.
> 
> :)
> 
> Fish

Two challanges to someone who thinks setup is "easy":

- install a relatively new ATI Radeon card and get 3D acclerated graphics
  working.  I had to compile XFree86 4.3.99 to get my Radeon 8500 to work.

- figure out how to write DVDs.

- get a USB audio device working.  I am just now trying to get a Griffin
  iMic USB audio interface to work.  It seems a need to install ALSA, but
  that is a nightmare.  Infact I find this harder than installing the kernel
  itself...

I am a regular Linux user, but these things are all pretty tough in my
opinion.  I need 3d graphics for my work, so I have dealt with that.  I have
also figured out DVDs (using growisofs).  But for extra stuff like Audio, that
is not essential to my work, I'll probably just give up and use a Windows
machine.

  Richard
0
Mannr (19)
1/26/2004 1:16:06 AM
Michael W. Cocke wrote:
> On 24 Jan 2004 14:01:42 -0800, featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil)
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
>>
>>Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
>>
>>Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
>>talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
>>of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
> 
> 
> That part right there indicates that you're a troll.  It takes far
> longer than that just to install an application - any application. I
> don't think you can even create the useless user login that doesn't
> impact who can actually use the computer in that amount of time...
> 
> (I exclude actually installing windows itself because many people
> don't - they just take whatever the computer manufacturer gives them
> and think that that's all there is.)
> 
> So - now that you've shot your credibility, go away.
> 
> Mike-
> 
> Mornings:  Evolution in action.  Only the grumpy will survive.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> Please note - Due to the intense volume of spam, we have
> installed site-wide spam filters at catherders.com.  If
> email from you bounces, try non-HTML, non-encoded, 
> non-attachments.
> 
> 
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
> ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Hurrah for "Troll Goggles" (patent pending)

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
1/26/2004 2:05:32 AM
Fish wrote:
> John Thompson wrote:
> 
>> On 2004-01-24, Narsil <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more 
>> quickly and easily than Windows.
>>
> 
> That's a myth, I'm afraid. First, if the machine has any unusual 
> hardware, Linux may well struggle to recognize it. Second, the fun only 
> starts after the installation which is admittedly pretty quick. But once 
> the stuff is installed, the new user is immediately thrown into the deep 
> end when trying to configure his installation for the first time because 
> Linux still lacks many of the easy system configuration tools Windows 
> users take for granted. I mean, with SuSE take two examples: a new user 
> first has to work out that Yast means Control Panels (or bits of them, 
> anyway) and then that Sax2 means Display. He may then also find he can't 
> play DVDs (SuSE) or MP3s (Red Hat), with perhaps no references to them 
> in the manuals, and is presented with several different configurators 
> for his sound card but no instructions on which one to use. While 
> fiddling with all the above, the new users has constantly to log in and 
> out on the gui as the root user because he doesn't yet know how to use 
> the console. None of this is remotely intuitive unless you know already 
> know what to do. The Linux learning curve remains extremely steep.
> 
> :)
> 
> Fish

Heres the simple conclusion I came to:

If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows. You'll 
come across fewer problems with Windows but it will frustrate even your 
expert friends in their attempts to sort the 'nasty' problems.

If you stick a big two fingers up at computer problems and aren't afraid 
to beat them into submission, use Linux. You might have to fight a 
continual struggle, but its downhill all the way.

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
1/26/2004 2:14:48 AM
Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote:
> Heres the simple conclusion I came to:

> If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows.
> You'll come across fewer problems with Windows but it will
> frustrate even your expert friends in their attempts to sort the
> 'nasty' problems.

This is ok for hobbyists.  But for professionals time is money.
Professionals don't have time to google for answers to questions
which shouldn't have to be asked.

> If you stick a big two fingers up at computer problems and aren't
> afraid to beat them into submission, use Linux. You might have to
> fight a continual struggle, but its downhill all the way.

Nobody has time to fiddle with meaningless shit.  You don't learn
anything about the system when you learn how to install programs.  All
you are learning is how to install programs.  And since the point
of installing the program is not installing the program, learning
anymore than you have to about installing programs is a total waste
of time.

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
1/26/2004 2:19:23 AM
jmw wrote:
> Narsil wrote:
> [...]
> 
>> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
>>
>> Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
>> talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
>> of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
>> spent the last week or so, on and off trying to install mplayer, and I
>> still can't do it, and I still don't know why.
> 
> [...]
> 
> some will argue that a major reason we all have so much trouble with
> hacking, trojans, viri, whathaveyou, is that windoze also facilitates
> 'get on the net in a newyork minute'

I agree. If you want to do everything but get asked no questions the 
(security/access) restrictions will be non-existant.

Paraphrasing, if you want to go everywhere and do everything no 
questions asked, you must first destroy the city walls and fire the police.

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
1/26/2004 2:19:43 AM
Fish wrote:
> nonsense
<snip>

> Fish

windows?  don't want it, don't need it
bye bye bill
0
beldar (4)
1/26/2004 2:20:06 AM
In alt.os.linux.slackware Richard Mann <Mannr@uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
 
> - get a USB audio device working.  I am just now trying to get a Griffin
>   iMic USB audio interface to work.  It seems a need to install ALSA, but
>   that is a nightmare.  Infact I find this harder than installing the kernel
>   itself...

Agreed. Whoever wrote the ALSA documentation should be shot, it really is
one of the most confused, inarticulate examples of technical writing I've
ever seen. But the actual install process itself is pretty straightforward
(for basic playback):

1) compile ALSA for your soundcard
2) insert sound modules into kernel using modprobe
3) copy and paste appropriate lines from help file into /etc/modules.conf 
4) copy and paste appropriate lines from help file into ~/.asoundrc
5) turn on sound with alsamixer and alsactl

The real problem is if you want to enable more than just basic playback,
i.e. the midi/joystick port or ADAT/SPDIF. ALSA support in this area--if
any--is lacking to say the least.
0
anon (312)
1/26/2004 3:18:59 AM
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:19:23 GMT, Russell Morse <whoknows@whocares.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote:
>> Heres the simple conclusion I came to:
> 
>> If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows.
>> You'll come across fewer problems with Windows but it will
>> frustrate even your expert friends in their attempts to sort the
>> 'nasty' problems.
> 
> This is ok for hobbyists.  But for professionals time is money.
> Professionals don't have time to google for answers to questions
> which shouldn't have to be asked.
> 
>> If you stick a big two fingers up at computer problems and aren't
>> afraid to beat them into submission, use Linux. You might have to
>> fight a continual struggle, but its downhill all the way.
> 
> Nobody has time to fiddle with meaningless shit.  You don't learn
> anything about the system when you learn how to install programs.  All
> you are learning is how to install programs.  And since the point
> of installing the program is not installing the program, learning
> anymore than you have to about installing programs is a total waste
> of time.
> 
> cordially, as always,
> 
> rm

Whoa!

I sure am glad that you aren't my Linux teacher or Sysadmin and I pray that
you aren't working for my ISP.

Except as a janitor....

(If your post was meant as a joke, then I retract the above comments and
apologize.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the topic in general: I don't want Linux to become the major OS. 

To do that, it would have to be just like Windows, and I don't see the
point in that at all.

Windows is for technocrats and appliance operators, Linux is for people
that want a superior OS and are willing to learn how it works. Who WANT
to have the freedom and control that these bring. 

AC


0
zzzzzz (1966)
1/26/2004 3:28:31 AM
> Heres the simple conclusion I came to:
> 
> If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows. You'll 
> come across fewer problems with Windows but it will frustrate even your 
> expert friends in their attempts to sort the 'nasty' problems.
> 
> If you stick a big two fingers up at computer problems and aren't afraid 
> to beat them into submission, use Linux. You might have to fight a 
> continual struggle, but its downhill all the way.

Ay, there's the rub. The vast majority of problems on Windows are solved 
with a reboot, and possibly a reinstall. A reboot rarely helps on Linux. 
You've got to go in and understand. That's not easy for some people.

I mean, I just picked up a dual-out video card. I checked that it was 
supported before I got it, but it still took me an afternoon to get it 
working right. Conditions were ideal, and I had a laptop that I could 
look at documentation with (what documentation there was), and that I 
could use to SSH in to make changes even when the display wasn't working.

On Windows it would have been a 15 minute job. At least, it was a 15 
minute job when I last did on Windows. I didn't need to know anything, I 
just stuck the extra card in, rebooted a few times, and off I went.

Linux makes up for that, with me, because I don't have to do a blessed 
thing otherwise. On the average, it comes out substantially in favor of 
Linux. But if you don't know how to edit config files, then you've got a 
problem if you deviate from what the distro supports. And if you're not 
willing to edit config files, it supports a lot less than Windows.
0
1/26/2004 4:37:01 AM
Alan Connor wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:19:23 GMT, Russell Morse <whoknows@whocares.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>>Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Heres the simple conclusion I came to:
>>
>>>If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows.
>>>You'll come across fewer problems with Windows but it will
>>>frustrate even your expert friends in their attempts to sort the
>>>'nasty' problems.
>>
>>This is ok for hobbyists.  But for professionals time is money.
>>Professionals don't have time to google for answers to questions
>>which shouldn't have to be asked.
>>
>>
>>>If you stick a big two fingers up at computer problems and aren't
>>>afraid to beat them into submission, use Linux. You might have to
>>>fight a continual struggle, but its downhill all the way.
>>
>>Nobody has time to fiddle with meaningless shit.  You don't learn
>>anything about the system when you learn how to install programs.  All
>>you are learning is how to install programs.  And since the point
>>of installing the program is not installing the program, learning
>>anymore than you have to about installing programs is a total waste
>>of time.
>>
>>cordially, as always,
>>
>>rm
> 
> 
> Whoa!
> 
> I sure am glad that you aren't my Linux teacher or Sysadmin and I pray that
> you aren't working for my ISP.
> 
> Except as a janitor....
> 
> (If your post was meant as a joke, then I retract the above comments and
> apologize.)
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> On the topic in general: I don't want Linux to become the major OS. 
> 
> To do that, it would have to be just like Windows, and I don't see the
> point in that at all.
> 
> Windows is for technocrats and appliance operators, Linux is for people
> that want a superior OS and are willing to learn how it works. Who WANT
> to have the freedom and control that these bring. 
> 
> AC
> 

Lol, I have no idea where Russel was coming from. Rather strange.

But I do think you have a point there Alan - Linux *is* for people who 
are willing to learn how it works. The clear benifit is that in 
understanding something you can improve it and mold it to your requirements.

For the people who are willing to learn, there are two end results:
1.) You can know everything about your system and not be able to change it;
2.) You can know everything about your system and change it to your 
hearts content.

Since the better of the two is clear IMO, it boils down to one question:
Are you willing to learn?

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
1/26/2004 5:58:40 AM
Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote:

> Lol, I have no idea where Russel was coming from. Rather strange.

> But I do think you have a point there Alan - Linux *is* for
> people who are willing to learn how it works. The clear benifit
> is that in understanding something you can improve it and mold it
> to your requirements.

Ah, the myth of learning with linux.

> For the people who are willing to learn, there are two end results:
> 1.) You can know everything about your system and not be able to change it;
> 2.) You can know everything about your system and change it to your 
> hearts content.

> Since the better of the two is clear IMO, it boils down to one
> question: Are you willing to learn?

Installing windows is like cutting wood with a power saw while
installing linux is like cutting wood with a hand saw.  You don't
learn anything more about the wood using a hand saw; you only learn
more about cutting wood with a handsaw.  And that's useless
information when you have a power saw, isn't it?

Remember, you can learn every bash command in existence - you still
will know absolutely nothing about how the os works.

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
1/26/2004 8:03:37 AM
In message <40145690$0$10687$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net>, Fish
<fish@gower1513.com> wrote
>John Thompson wrote:
>> On 2004-01-24, Narsil <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>
>> Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more
>>quickly and easily than Windows.
>>
>
>That's a myth, I'm afraid.

No Mr Troll - you are the myth spreader

> First, if the machine has any unusual hardware, Linux may well
>struggle to recognize it.

As opposed to Windoze which just declares that the device is not
functioning until you install the software that comes on the CD that you
*hope* they remembered to give you.

> Second, the fun only starts after the installation which is admittedly
>pretty quick.

So you admit that the installation is quicker - despite describing that
fact as a myth

> But once the stuff is installed, the new user is immediately thrown
>into the deep end when trying to configure his installation for the
>first time because Linux still lacks many of the easy system
>configuration tools Windows users take for granted.

The difference being that the Linux install has already catered for
configurations

> I mean, with SuSE take two examples: a new user first has to work out
>that Yast means Control Panels (or bits of them, anyway)

Not at all. He/she just has to work out that "Control Center" means
Control Centre and then come top terms with such difficult concepts as:

        Information
        Look and Feel
        Personalisation
        Sound
        Web Browsing
        Graphics Card & Monitor


> and then that Sax2 means Display.

Again incorrect. He/she simply has to work out that if he/she wants to
control something to do with the monitor it is in the Control Center
under "Graphics Card & Monitor"


> He may then also find he can't play DVDs (SuSE) or MP3s (Red Hat),

Or in Windows that it simply does not recognise the DVD

> with perhaps no references to them in the manuals,

At least there *are* manuals

> and is presented with several different configurators for his sound
>card but no instructions on which one to use.

The simplest one to use is Sound under Control Centre


> While fiddling with all the above, the new users has constantly to log
>in and out on the gui as the root user because he doesn't yet know how
>to use the console.

No need to log in and out at all, simply follow the instruction to click
on "Administrator mode" and to give the root password

>None of this is remotely intuitive unless you know already know what to
>do.

You are right, following instructions on the screen is *not* intuitive,
it does not need to be, you simply follow the instructions

>The Linux learning curve remains extremely steep.
>
In your dreams
-- 
Robert          Talking to yourself - first sign of madness
                Answering yourself back - first sign of schizophrenia
                I go one better: If I don't like the answer ...
                I put it to a majority vote
0
Robert4309 (596)
1/26/2004 8:11:34 AM
Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> says...

>Heres the simple conclusion I came to:
>
>If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows. You'll 
>come across fewer problems with Windows but it will frustrate even your 
>expert friends in their attempts to sort the 'nasty' problems.

Prior to OS X, I would have said that the Macintosh has even fewer
problems but that the problems you do have are even harder to solve.
I don't know enough about the new MacOS to know if this is still
true.


-- 
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire. 
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you 
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like 
Doc Brown can solve?  My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/ 

0
Guy
1/26/2004 8:25:05 AM
Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> says...

>Lol, I have no idea where Russel was coming from. Rather strange.

He has been trolling alt.os.linux.slackware for a long time.
Everybody there has killfiled him, so now he is focusing his
trolling on crossposted threads.

If you want to do us a huge favor, trim alt.os.linux.slackware
from the Newsgroups line when replying to anything that has
"cordially, as always, rm" at the end of it.


-- 
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire. 
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you 
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like 
Doc Brown can solve?  My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/ 

0
Guy
1/26/2004 8:31:16 AM
In message <LO_Qb.1319$mf4.252373@news20.bellglobal.com>, Russell Morse
<whoknows@whocares.org> wrote
>Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote:
>> Heres the simple conclusion I came to:
>
>> If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows.
>> You'll come across fewer problems with Windows but it will
>> frustrate even your expert friends in their attempts to sort the
>> 'nasty' problems.
>
>This is ok for hobbyists.  But for professionals time is money.

Which is why Windoze is the wrong way to go for professionals

>Professionals don't have time to google for answers to questions
>which shouldn't have to be asked.

So use a professional operating system - not Windoze

Some examples:

1       Major Brand Scanner under Windows

        a)      Plug In scanner

        b)      Reboot - Windows says "Unknown device - scanning for
                drivers"

        c)      "Driver not found" - scanner doesn't work

        d)      Look for manufacturer's disk

        e)      If you can't find the right driver - google for it then
                download

        f)      Start Menu / Settings / Add Hardware

        g)      Windows says "Unknown device - scanning for drivers"

        h)      Driver not found - we knew that already

        i)      Click on "Have Disk"

        j)      Windows asks for the Windows install CD

        k)      Finally persuade it to accept the Manufacturer's CD

        l)      After an age, click on "Reboot"

        m)      If you're lucky, the scanner works, but you mow have a
                shed load of software starting in your system tray

2       Major Brand Scanner under SuSE Linux

        a)      Plug in scanner

        b)      Call up Control Centre

        c)      Click on "Administrator mode" as instructed

        d)      select Scanner and allow Control Centre to check whether
                you have scanner software loaded

        e)      Put in the requested disk to load scanner software (if
                not already there)

        f)      Allow Control Center to identify scanner

        g)      Follow instruction to click on "Load" to load the
                correct driver

        h)      Click on "finish" and use the scanner

3)      Office programs under Windows (first time)

        a)      Order Microsoft Office for a cart load of money

        b)      Wait for it to arrive

        c)      Install CD

        d)      Reboot

        e)      Click on Start Centre / Programs / Word

        f)      Try to use the Help facility

        g)      Insert CD whilst Help installs from CD

        h)      Reboot

        i)      Click on Start Centre / Programs / Word

        j)      Compose your document

        k)      Go to print and watch everything print out wrongly
                because the paper size is set wrong

        l)      Consult the manuals - Damnation! No Manuals!

4)      Office programs under SuSE Linux (first time)

        a)      Click on Open Office icon

        b)      Compose document

        c)      Print on correct paper size which has been set according
                to your locale
-- 
Robert          Talking to yourself - first sign of madness
                Answering yourself back - first sign of schizophrenia
                I go one better: If I don't like the answer ...
                I put it to a majority vote
0
Robert4309 (596)
1/26/2004 8:33:59 AM
In comp.os.linux.x anon <anon@anon.com> wrote:
> In alt.os.linux.slackware Richard Mann <Mannr@uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>  
>> - get a USB audio device working.  I am just now trying to get a Griffin
>>   iMic USB audio interface to work.  It seems a need to install ALSA, but
>>   that is a nightmare.  Infact I find this harder than installing the kernel
>>   itself...

> Agreed. Whoever wrote the ALSA documentation should be shot, it really is
> one of the most confused, inarticulate examples of technical writing I've
> ever seen. But the actual install process itself is pretty straightforward
> (for basic playback):

> 1) compile ALSA for your soundcard
> 2) insert sound modules into kernel using modprobe
> 3) copy and paste appropriate lines from help file into /etc/modules.conf 
> 4) copy and paste appropriate lines from help file into ~/.asoundrc
> 5) turn on sound with alsamixer and alsactl

> The real problem is if you want to enable more than just basic playback,
> i.e. the midi/joystick port or ADAT/SPDIF. ALSA support in this area--if
> any--is lacking to say the least.

On the contrary, Alsa support in that area is superior to the other free
alternatives.  The documentation, however, is lacking.

Adam

0
adamk5545 (22)
1/26/2004 11:17:13 AM
on Sun January 25 2004 11:37 pm, Anthony Roberts decided to enlighten us
with:

> Ay, there's the rub. The vast majority of problems on Windows are solved
> with a reboot, and possibly a reinstall. A reboot rarely helps on Linux.
> You've got to go in and understand. That's not easy for some people.

Just about every problem I ever had in Linux was solved by deleting the
offending .rc or config file and let the app/system rebuild it and begin
again. Not so much as a reboot. Once I began to understand Linux, I ceased
to need to reboot. Try that with Windows...better yet, try and delete a
registry setting and let the app/system rebuild it!
 
> I mean, I just picked up a dual-out video card. I checked that it was
> supported before I got it, but it still took me an afternoon to get it
> working right. Conditions were ideal, and I had a laptop that I could
> look at documentation with (what documentation there was), and that I
> could use to SSH in to make changes even when the display wasn't working.

I just installed WinXP on a computer I just built for a friend and it took a
couple of evenings to get all of his hardware working properly. The onboard
Promise controller was a PITA. So much for ease of installation and
setup...
 
> Linux makes up for that, with me, because I don't have to do a blessed
> thing otherwise. On the average, it comes out substantially in favor of
> Linux. But if you don't know how to edit config files, then you've got a
> problem if you deviate from what the distro supports. And if you're not
> willing to edit config files, it supports a lot less than Windows.

Config files are in clear plain english and an idiot can decipher and edit
them.



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
  6:12am  up 49 days 13:50,  2 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.08, 0.08

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
1/26/2004 11:17:39 AM
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:14:48 +0000, Ben Measures wrote:

> Heres the simple conclusion I came to:
> 
> If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows. You'll
> come across fewer problems with Windows but it will frustrate even your
> expert friends in their attempts to sort the 'nasty' problems.

Amen, brother.  I just installed AutoCAD 2004 on a brand-new XP
installation.  Turns out that (after poring through the docs and
installing two other apps) that I needed to uninstall AutoCAD and
reinstall it using the "network" install.  OK, bounce over to add/remove,
remove autocad.  Idiot proof.... Except that XP now spontaneously reboots,
no longer boots, or just shuts down.  No errors, no log files, no
messages, no indications of anything wrong....

*No fsking way* to figure out what went wrong, and *no fscking way* to fix
it, short of reinstalling the entire OS.

Of course, I never thought of installing a $7K, well-supported software
package on a flagship OS would be a 'nasty' problem.

> If you stick a big two fingers up at computer problems and aren't afraid
> to beat them into submission, use Linux. You might have to fight a
> continual struggle, but its downhill all the way.

I've had installations blow up in linux, but never one that disabled the
OS.

--Kamus

-- 
    o__      |  If you're old, eat right and ride a decent bike.
    ,>/'_    |                                       Q.
   (_)\(_)   |                                       Usenet posting`

0
yan (1424)
1/26/2004 11:35:22 AM
Fish wrote:
> John Thompson wrote:
> 
>> On 2004-01-24, Narsil <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more 
>> quickly and easily than Windows.
>>
> 
> That's a myth, I'm afraid. First, if the machine has any unusual 
> hardware, Linux may well struggle to recognize it. Second, the fun only 
> starts after the installation which is admittedly pretty quick. But once 
> the stuff is installed, the new user is immediately thrown into the deep 
> end when trying to configure his installation for the first time because 
> Linux still lacks many of the easy system configuration tools Windows 
> users take for granted. I mean, with SuSE take two examples: a new user 
> first has to work out that Yast means Control Panels (or bits of them, 
> anyway) and then that Sax2 means Display. He may then also find he can't 
> play DVDs (SuSE) or MP3s (Red Hat), with perhaps no references to them 

Please read the release notes, playing MP3 songs and, or DVD's are not a 
Linux and, or linux's desktop issues.

> in the manuals, and is presented with several different configurators 
> for his sound card but no instructions on which one to use. While 
> fiddling with all the above, the new users has constantly to log in and 
> out on the gui as the root user because he doesn't yet know how to use 
> the console. None of this is remotely intuitive unless you know already 
> know what to do. The Linux learning curve remains extremely steep.
> 
> :)
> 
Many OEM's have started shipping pre-installed Linux PC's; wouldn't be 
it nice if you get such a PC if you and, or any other such user is 
afraid of installing, configuring and learning Linux?

What windows is and how intutive is it's human interface, is not a 
question. The question is -- it is not that easy to explain people that:

LET A = A + 1

is, "Let A assigned by A plus one, and not A is equal to A plus one".

We spended a lot of time in learning 95, 98, SE, ME, NT, 2000 and XP, 
and paid hard earned money in buying and, or upgrading it; can't we 
spare a few hours to promote such a great product that any one can use, 
copy, modify and, or distribute for free and, or charge for doing so?

It would be nice Fish, if your start using and, or learning Linux 
honestly and used to it; only then you may find that how easy is it at 
destop too.

Regards,
-- 
Dr Balwinder Singh Dheeman
"Linux is much much better, but in not the best as yet.
Do you too work on making a difference?"

0
1/26/2004 12:43:28 PM
Any application?  So when I installed the new version of winamp, which
took a minute or two, I didn't really install it?  How about having to
reinstall MSN messenger because of the new security upgrades which
mean that Trilian no longer works.  Only took a few minutes.  How
about the Python installer which I needed for my course at university?
 That only took a minute, at most.  I could go on, but I think I've
made my point.

Even the installing of windows with its endless rebooting doesnt take
over a week, which so far this install of mplayer has taken.

If you want to shout troll, please have something credible to back
your argument up.  Otherwise please keep your presumptious comments to
yourself

TomN


Michael W. Cocke <cocke@catherders.com> wrote in message news:<i9961095idda5mkoe3ann0rvd214jc48kr@4ax.com>...
> That part right there indicates that you're a troll.  It takes far
> longer than that just to install an application - any application. I
> don't think you can even create the useless user login that doesn't
> impact who can actually use the computer in that amount of time...
> 
> (I exclude actually installing windows itself because many people
> don't - they just take whatever the computer manufacturer gives them
> and think that that's all there is.)
> 
> So - now that you've shot your credibility, go away.
> 
> Mike-
> 
> Mornings:  Evolution in action.  Only the grumpy will survive.
> -----------------------------------------------------
0
1/26/2004 3:41:23 PM
featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil) writes:

> Any application?  So when I installed the new version of winamp, which
> took a minute or two, I didn't really install it?  How about having to
> reinstall MSN messenger because of the new security upgrades which
> mean that Trilian no longer works.  Only took a few minutes.  How
> about the Python installer which I needed for my course at university?
>  That only took a minute, at most.  I could go on, but I think I've
> made my point.
>
> Even the installing of windows with its endless rebooting doesnt take
> over a week, which so far this install of mplayer has taken.

So you're extending the faults of mplayer to the entire system, are
you?  Do yourself a favor and install xine instead.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
1/26/2004 3:44:56 PM
Richard Mann wrote:
> 
> Two challanges to someone who thinks setup is "easy":
> 
> - install a relatively new ATI Radeon card and get 3D acclerated graphics
>   working.  I had to compile XFree86 4.3.99 to get my Radeon 8500 to work.

I don't understand all the difficulty people have with ATI cards. 
Personally I use the ATI drivers and all I had to do was install their
RPM and then:

cd /lib/modules/fglrx/build_mod
../make.sh
cd /lib/modules/fglrx
../make_install.sh

Done.  That was it.  The ATI installer did the rest.  Of course, if you
don't bother to read the README and install the pre-requisites you'll
have problems, but that's true of any software.

BTW, the ATI drivers are the *only* ones available for the cards above
the Radeon 9200.  Some cards are supported by both the open source and
ATI's drivers.
0
jpstewart1 (635)
1/26/2004 3:58:52 PM
Jesse F. Hughes wrote:

> "Nico Kadel-Garcia" <nkadel@comcast.net> writes:

>> It was a binary (HTML) format on text-only newsgroups.

> I do not support HTML in newsgroups, but HTML is not a binary format 
> in any reasonable sense of the word.  It is plain text (if not too 
> easily readable by humans).

only becomes dangerous when a browser is embedded into the Operating
System and impossible to remove ;)
0
daeron2 (1670)
1/26/2004 4:57:08 PM
Fish wrote:

> John Thompson wrote:
>> On 2004-01-24, Narsil <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> 
>> Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more
>> quickly and easily than Windows.
>> 
> 
> That's a myth, I'm afraid.

LOL

> First, if the machine has any unusual
> hardware, Linux may well struggle to recognize it.

And windows may well not recognise it at all.

> Second, the fun only
> starts after the installation which is admittedly pretty quick.

??

> But once
> the stuff is installed, the new user is immediately thrown into the deep
> end when trying to configure his installation for the first time because
> Linux still lacks many of the easy system configuration tools Windows
> users take for granted. I mean, with SuSE take two examples: a new user
> first has to work out that Yast means Control Panels

No, he has to learn what Yast is, which is no harder than learning what
Control Panel is.

> (or bits of them,
> anyway) and then that Sax2 means Display. He may then also find he can't
> play DVDs (SuSE) or MP3s (Red Hat), with perhaps no references to them
> in the manuals,

I *still* can't play dvds on my windows box, and there is no reference to it
in the manuals because, oh yes, there aren't any.

> and is presented with several different configurators
> for his sound card but no instructions on which one to use.

Because any of them will work fine.

> While
> fiddling with all the above, the new users has constantly to log in and
> out on the gui as the root user because he doesn't yet know how to use
> the console.

As a new user does on windows, they have to keep logging in and out of
administrator, and there's not even a console there for them when they
finally find it.

> None of this is remotely intuitive unless you know already
> know what to do. The Linux learning curve remains extremely steep.

The windows learning curve is just as steep and no more intuitive. Remember
that study a while back comparing how easily windows 98 users adapted to
windows XP or red hat 9? Windows was quicker but only just so, and
considering that the users had experience with earlier versions of windows
I doubt windows is any more intuitive.

0
1/26/2004 5:57:13 PM
> Two challanges to someone who thinks setup is "easy":
> 
> - install a relatively new ATI Radeon card and get 3D acclerated graphics
>   working.  I had to compile XFree86 4.3.99 to get my Radeon 8500 to work.
> 
> - figure out how to write DVDs.
> 
> - get a USB audio device working.  I am just now trying to get a Griffin
>   iMic USB audio interface to work.  It seems a need to install ALSA, but
>   that is a nightmare.  Infact I find this harder than installing the
>   kernel itself...
> 
> I am a regular Linux user, but these things are all pretty tough in my
> opinion.  I need 3d graphics for my work, so I have dealt with that.  I
> have
> also figured out DVDs (using growisofs).  But for extra stuff like Audio,
> that is not essential to my work, I'll probably just give up and use a
> Windows machine.

Well, I'll tell you that as soon as you can tell me (for windows):

-how to make my sound card drivers stop getting randomly corrupted.

-how to access my cdrom drive without having to reinstall the drivers every
time I reboot

-how to get all the programs I want to run on start up to run on startup
(atm about half run and I have a batchfile to launch all the others)

-how to get my dvd drive working

-how to avoid getting a BSOD every other bootup
0
1/26/2004 6:05:08 PM
Please remove alt.os.linux.slackware from the list of newsgroups
you post to if your post isn't about Slackware Linux.  Thanks!


0
Guy
1/26/2004 6:23:06 PM
So anyway, it was like, 17:57 CET Jan 26 2004, you know? Oh, and, yeah,
Daeron was all like, "Dude,
> Jesse F. Hughes wrote:

>> I do not support HTML in newsgroups, but HTML is not a binary
>> format in any reasonable sense of the word. It is plain text (if
>> not too easily readable by humans).
>
> only becomes dangerous when a browser is embedded into the Operating
> System and impossible to remove ;)

The next insecure os after ms goes down in flames may well be emacs.

-- 
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.      Perth ---> *
 19:27:52 up 2 days,  3:03,  1 user,  load average: 2.01, 2.03, 2.00
$ cat /dev/bollocks                      Registered Linux user #261729
strategize extensible interfaces
0
spam7 (1369)
1/26/2004 6:28:29 PM
Johan Lindquist wrote:

> The next insecure os after ms goes down in flames may well be emacs.

you jest shurly ?


"I was proud the other day when both Tal Hajus and the Tharks stood with
me in the great central plaza to announce their support for a clear
statement of purpose: you disarm, or we will."

al DuBya: Emperor of Mars er ... Barsoom
0
daeron2 (1670)
1/26/2004 8:07:15 PM
MikeyD <m_donaghy50@hotmail.com> writes:

> Well, I'll tell you that as soon as you can tell me (for windows):
>
> -how to make my sound card drivers stop getting randomly corrupted.
>
> -how to access my cdrom drive without having to reinstall the drivers every
> time I reboot
>
> -how to get all the programs I want to run on start up to run on startup
> (atm about half run and I have a batchfile to launch all the others)
>
> -how to get my dvd drive working
>
> -how to avoid getting a BSOD every other bootup

- how to make w2k consider a fully functional DEC21143 NIC usable
- how to stop w98/explorer from crashing every 5 minutes
- how to make w98 and wxp share files
- how to make windows update not complain about bad versions even
  after it has installed whatever it wants

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
1/26/2004 11:26:05 PM
anon wrote:

> In alt.os.linux.slackware Richard Mann <Mannr@uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>  
>> - get a USB audio device working.  I am just now trying to get a Griffin
>>   iMic USB audio interface to work.  It seems a need to install ALSA, but
>>   that is a nightmare.  Infact I find this harder than installing the
>>   kernel itself...
> 
> Agreed. Whoever wrote the ALSA documentation should be shot, it really is
> one of the most confused, inarticulate examples of technical writing I've
> ever seen. But the actual install process itself is pretty straightforward
> (for basic playback):
> 
> 1) compile ALSA for your soundcard
> 2) insert sound modules into kernel using modprobe
> 3) copy and paste appropriate lines from help file into /etc/modules.conf
> 4) copy and paste appropriate lines from help file into ~/.asoundrc
> 5) turn on sound with alsamixer and alsactl
> 
> The real problem is if you want to enable more than just basic playback,
> i.e. the midi/joystick port or ADAT/SPDIF. ALSA support in this area--if
> any--is lacking to say the least.


Ah ALSA I remember my first time trying to set up my sound with the online
support. I think I could have picked up reading Greek better :) After
reading over and over everything somehow i just got everything right and it
worked.
-- 
Synchrodude the Legend
You only have too much fuel if you are on fire.
0
me14 (298)
1/27/2004 5:52:14 AM
In alt.os.linux.slackware Adam K Kirchhoff <adamk@voicenet.com> wrote:
 
> On the contrary, Alsa support in that area is superior to the other free
> alternatives.  The documentation, however, is lacking.

Since I include documentation under support, that was basically what my
point amounted to (I guess I'm not any better than Alsa at explanations
<g>).
0
anon (312)
1/27/2004 10:53:36 AM
anon <anon@anon.com> says...
>
>In alt.os.linux.slackware Adam K Kirchhoff <adamk@voicenet.com> wrote:
> 
>> On the contrary, Alsa support in that area is superior to the other free
>> alternatives.  The documentation, however, is lacking.
>
>Since I include documentation under support, that was basically what my
>point amounted to (I guess I'm not any better than Alsa at explanations

One would only hope that, of the many who have had problems with the
Allso documentation, at least a few would writeup what worked for them...

0
Guy
1/27/2004 11:35:41 AM
[Warning:  Followups set punitively.]

In comp.os.linux.hardware "<-J-C->" <NO_NO_jaa_cee_@hotmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071

_Six_ Linux newsgroups?  For a nitwit press-coverage troll?  Jeesux.

Will someone please wake me up when it's finally stopped being September
1993?  Thanks.

-- 
Cheers,                        My pid is Inigo Montoya.  You kill -9    
Rick Moen                      my parent process.  Prepare to vi.
rick@linuxmafia.com

0
rick76 (566)
1/28/2004 10:03:50 PM
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 22:22:24 +0000, jmw wrote:

> Narsil wrote:
> [...]
>> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
>> 
>> Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
>> talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
>> of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
>> spent the last week or so, on and off trying to install mplayer, and I
>> still can't do it, and I still don't know why.
> [...]
> 
> some will argue that a major reason we all have so much trouble with
> hacking, trojans, viri, whathaveyou, is that windoze also facilitates
> 'get on the net in a newyork minute' and people can engage in
> minute-brained activity.
> 
> in some respects it may be good that Linux isn't as easy to install
> or use as is windoze.

To carry water and use MS-Windows has two similarties, it's manual labour.
Someone actually loves to re-format and re-install once a week.

-- 
Vicious Vogon - Experienced in dealing with human trash in any form and country.

0
vogon (83)
2/7/2004 8:09:57 PM
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:

<snip>

The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to climb
it once.

Computers isn't easy to use at all, most users don't know what they're up
to. Pick 1 person (that actually can read and write) off the street and
put him/her in front of computer, give advanced instructions ... did they
get it?

You may try this with any os.

-- 
Vicious Vogon - Experienced in dealing with human trash in any form and country.

0
vogon (83)
2/7/2004 8:16:37 PM
Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
> <snip>
>
> The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to
> climb it once.

For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."

In contrast, the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
understandings of system behaviour.

That difference is a good reason why Linux + X + Various Other Tools
isn't always the ideal choice for "end users" that are uninterested in
having any understanding of how their system works.

Unfortunately, there are two additional implications:

 1.  For those that actually _want_ a deep understanding of a system,
     the steep learning curve associated with Unix means that as long
     as they _do_ climb the cliff, they can reach high points
     relatively quickly.

     With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
     deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
     shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
     gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
     time-consuming.

 2.  For those that only wanted a "shallow" understanding, the
     hideous complexity sitting under Windows' surface represents
     lurking sharks.

     Two obvious "sharks" are:
      - System security, and
      - Backups/system recovery.

     If you _haven't_ a "deep" understanding of Windows, there is a
     HUGE risk of getting infected by the "email virus du jour," and
     perhaps even compounding that by your inability to recover
     documents and various aspects of system state.
-- 
output = reverse("moc.enworbbc" "@" "enworbbc")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/unix.html
Rules of the Evil Overlord #130.  "All members of my Legions of Terror
will  have professionally  tailored  uniforms. If  the  hero knocks  a
soldier unconscious and steals the uniform, the poor fit will give him
away." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
0
cbbrowne (1108)
2/7/2004 9:27:36 PM
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> writes:

> Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to
>> climb it once.
>
> For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."

Perhaps, but the view from the top of the cliff is magnificent.
Windows has more of a learning pit, where unsuspecting users slide
down and get stuck in the mud.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/7/2004 9:42:40 PM
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:42:40 +0100, M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:

> Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> writes:
> 
>> Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to
>>> climb it once.
>>
>> For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."
> 
> Perhaps, but the view from the top of the cliff is magnificent.
> Windows has more of a learning pit, where unsuspecting users slide
> down and get stuck in the mud.

I'll drink to that!

-- 
Vicious Vogon - Experienced in dealing with human trash in any form and country.

0
vogon (83)
2/7/2004 9:48:21 PM
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 21:27:36 +0000, Christopher Browne wrote:

> Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to
>> climb it once.
> 
> For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."
> 
> In contrast, the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
> that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
> will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
> understandings of system behaviour.
> 
> That difference is a good reason why Linux + X + Various Other Tools
> isn't always the ideal choice for "end users" that are uninterested in
> having any understanding of how their system works.
> 
> Unfortunately, there are two additional implications:
> 
>  1.  For those that actually _want_ a deep understanding of a system,
>      the steep learning curve associated with Unix means that as long
>      as they _do_ climb the cliff, they can reach high points
>      relatively quickly.
> 
>      With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>      deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>      shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>      gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>      time-consuming.
> 
>  2.  For those that only wanted a "shallow" understanding, the
>      hideous complexity sitting under Windows' surface represents
>      lurking sharks.
> 
>      Two obvious "sharks" are:
>       - System security, and
>       - Backups/system recovery.
> 
>      If you _haven't_ a "deep" understanding of Windows, there is a
>      HUGE risk of getting infected by the "email virus du jour," and
>      perhaps even compounding that by your inability to recover
>      documents and various aspects of system state.

Another drink down the hatch!

-- 
Vicious Vogon - Experienced in dealing with human trash in any form and country.

0
vogon (83)
2/7/2004 9:50:15 PM
Christopher Browne wrote:

> 1.��For�those�that�actually�want�a�deep�understanding�of�a�system,
> the�steep�learning�curve�associated�with�Unix�means�that�as�long
> as�they�do�climb�the�cliff,�they�can�reach�high�points
> relatively�quickly.
> 
> With�Windows,�the�shallow�learning�curve�means�you�can't�get�a
> deep�understanding�quickly.��It's�like�a�beach�with�a�really
> shallow�grade;�you�may�have�to�wade�out�2�miles�until�the�water
> gets�deep�enough�to�swim�in,�and�that�is�both�irritating�and
> time-consuming.

the whole steep shallow learning curve analogy is borked...

A steep learning curve if you looked at it as % of OS learned versus time
taken... then a steep learning curve is one where you learn how to use the
OS quickly. Whilst the converse is true of the shallow learning curve... it
takes a heck of a long time to learn enough to be productive in that OS
environment.

the problem came about because Marketdroids were using the learning curve
analogy all back to front when making presentations to PHBs... they were
implying that a "steep" learning curve was one where things were hard to
learn ie. they were equating it to the difficulty in making progress up a
steep hill...

sheesh... how many groups is this cross posted to???
-- 
COMPUTER POWER TO THE PEOPLE! DOWN WITH CYBERCRUD!
0
paul_cooke (974)
2/7/2004 10:05:21 PM
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> says...

>the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
>that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
>will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
>understandings of system behaviour.
>
>That difference is a good reason why Linux + X + Various Other Tools
>isn't always the ideal choice for "end users" that are uninterested in
>having any understanding of how their system works.
>
>Unfortunately, there are two additional implications:
>
> 1.  For those that actually _want_ a deep understanding of a system,
>     the steep learning curve associated with Unix means that as long
>     as they _do_ climb the cliff, they can reach high points
>     relatively quickly.
>
>     With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>     deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>     shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>     gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>     time-consuming.
>
> 2.  For those that only wanted a "shallow" understanding, the
>     hideous complexity sitting under Windows' surface represents
>     lurking sharks.
>
>     Two obvious "sharks" are:
>      - System security, and
>      - Backups/system recovery.
>
>     If you _haven't_ a "deep" understanding of Windows, there is a
>     HUGE risk of getting infected by the "email virus du jour," and
>     perhaps even compounding that by your inability to recover
>     documents and various aspects of system state.

Interesting analysis.  What about the Macintosh BSD-based OS-X?
I don't own one but the reports I have seen say that it has a
very shallow learning curve for most users, yet a deep 
understanding of the system is still easy to achieve.  If that's
true, it would seem to be a counterexample to your theory.



-- 
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire. 
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you 
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like 
Doc Brown can solve?  My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/ 

0
Guy
2/7/2004 10:20:30 PM
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:
> Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to
> > climb it once.

> For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."

> In contrast, the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
> that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
> will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
> understandings of system behaviour.

That's because the model of system behaviour that windows uses is
deliberately structured that way.  The model of system behaviour
that Linux follows is very old and primitive.  You don't gain a
deeper understanding of your computer with linux, you only get a
deeper understanding of linux.  And since it takes a longer time to
get a deeper understanding of linux then it takes to get a deeper
understanding of windows, windows has the advantage.

> That difference is a good reason why Linux + X + Various Other
> Tools isn't always the ideal choice for "end users" that are
> uninterested in having any understanding of how their system
> works.

But linux + X and various other tools show how linux works, not the
computer.  Linux and Windows both talk to the hardware but Windows
speaks a more modern language and that's why there are so many more
users and so much superior hardware.

> Unfortunately, there are two additional implications:

>  1.  For those that actually _want_ a deep understanding of a system,
>      the steep learning curve associated with Unix means that as long
>      as they _do_ climb the cliff, they can reach high points
>      relatively quickly.

But linux doesn't give you a deeper understanding of a system.
Linux is the system.  Gaining a deep enough understanding of linux
to make the hardware work takes more effort than gaining a deep
enough understanding of windows to make the computer work.

>      With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>      deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>      shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>      gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>      time-consuming.

Your analogy is totally flawed.  Windows has a "shallow learning
curve" because it is a more modern language.  It does things
differently than linux.  To _really_ understand how windows works
you have to spend just as much work as you do to understand how
linux works but you are learning different things in a different
way.

>  2.  For those that only wanted a "shallow" understanding, the
>      hideous complexity sitting under Windows' surface represents
>      lurking sharks.

>      Two obvious "sharks" are:
>       - System security, and
>       - Backups/system recovery.

This is silly.  I am not sure why I am responding to somebody as
stupid as you.  You've just bought into a lot of empty myths about
linux.  There is a reason you have to pay for windows while linux
is free.  And there is a reason that far more computers use windows
than linux.   And it's not about any preposterous marketing
conspiracy.  People are not that stupid.

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
2/7/2004 10:21:12 PM
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> writes:

> Interesting analysis.  What about the Macintosh BSD-based OS-X?
> I don't own one but the reports I have seen say that it has a
> very shallow learning curve for most users, yet a deep 
> understanding of the system is still easy to achieve.  If that's
> true, it would seem to be a counterexample to your theory.

I'm not quite sure how it relates to this discussion, but it took me
all of five minutes to locate the terminal emulator.  I'd rather not
think of the work it took to clean up the mess it made in my home
directory shared with Unix systems.  Oh, I almost forgot, the
graphical file manager wouldn't let me see things like /tmp.
Disgusting.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/7/2004 10:58:08 PM
Ron Matthews wrote:
> 
> Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:
> > Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to
> > > climb it once.
> 
> > For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."
> 
> > In contrast, the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
> > that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
> > will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
> > understandings of system behaviour.
> 
> That's because the model of system behaviour that windows uses is
> deliberately structured that way.

Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web browsing. 
At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC for internet
connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated, and with Windows,
it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.  That's a fact.

You drive a car, but how much do you rally know about your car?  Do
people have to know how to build and repair a car to drive a car?  No. 
People just want to be able to use their computers, the way they use
their cars.  That is not so outrageous.
0
laura2376 (135)
2/7/2004 10:58:32 PM
Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> writes:

> There is a reason you have to pay for windows while linux is free.

Of course.  The primary interest of Microsoft is to make money, so
they charge for it.  Linus' primary objective when he started out was
to create an operating system (or something along those lines), and
thus he didn't feel a need to charge any money for it.

> And there is a reason that far more computers use windows than
> linux.

Most things tend to have a reason.  Some things have better reasons
than others.

> And it's not about any preposterous marketing conspiracy.

If it's not marketing, then what?

> People are not that stupid.

Sadly, they are.

> cordially, as always,

What?  Why didn't my troll filter catch that?

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/7/2004 11:03:38 PM
ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:

> Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web browsing. 
> At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC for internet
> connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated, and with Windows,
> it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.  That's a fact.

Let's see:

1. Dig out old pentium-150.
2. Install two NICs.
3. Install Linux.
4. Plug one NIC into ISP connection.
5. Plug other NIC into switch.
6. Activate IP forwarding.

Six steps and you're set.

> You drive a car, but how much do you rally know about your car?  Do
> people have to know how to build and repair a car to drive a car?  No. 
> People just want to be able to use their computers, the way they use
> their cars.  That is not so outrageous.

Have you ever noticed the way some people drive cars?

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/7/2004 11:15:35 PM
M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
> 
> Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> writes:
> 
> > There is a reason you have to pay for windows while linux is free.
> 
> Of course.  The primary interest of Microsoft is to make money, so
> they charge for it.  

Well, that's certainly true...
0
laura2376 (135)
2/7/2004 11:20:37 PM
M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
> 
> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:
> 
> > Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web browsing.
> > At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC for internet
> > connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated, and with Windows,
> > it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.  That's a fact.
> 
> Let's see:
> 
> 1. Dig out old pentium-150.
> 2. Install two NICs.
> 3. Install Linux.
> 4. Plug one NIC into ISP connection.
> 5. Plug other NIC into switch.
> 6. Activate IP forwarding.
> 
> Six steps and you're set.

You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)
0
laura2376 (135)
2/7/2004 11:27:11 PM
ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:

> M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
>> 
>> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:
>> 
>> > Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web browsing.
>> > At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC for internet
>> > connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated, and with Windows,
>> > it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.  That's a fact.
>> 
>> Let's see:
>> 
>> 1. Dig out old pentium-150.
>> 2. Install two NICs.
>> 3. Install Linux.
>> 4. Plug one NIC into ISP connection.
>> 5. Plug other NIC into switch.
>> 6. Activate IP forwarding.
>> 
>> Six steps and you're set.
>
> You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
> PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)

You're a bit too far away, I'm afraid.  Seriously though, it's not
that hard.  Just get a DHCP server running on the Linux gateway and
the mswindows machines will work fine.  You can of course configure
everything manually if you want.  I prefer to keep everything in one
place, though.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/7/2004 11:57:25 PM
Here in comp.os.linux.x,
ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> spake unto us, saying:

>M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
> 
>> Let's see:
>> 
>> 1. Dig out old pentium-150.
>> 2. Install two NICs.
>> 3. Install Linux.
>> 4. Plug one NIC into ISP connection.
>> 5. Plug other NIC into switch.
>> 6. Activate IP forwarding.
>> 
>> Six steps and you're set.
>
>You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
>PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)

It *is* easy if you use a version of Linux intended for that purpose
(say, a copy of Coyote Linux):

  http://www.coyotelinux.com

-- 
 -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
  OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
     Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
              See web site above for resume/CV and background.
0
rsteiner (797)
2/8/2004 12:10:16 AM
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:21:12 +0000, Ron Matthews <whatever>:

Nothing worth mentioning ...



To long in the MS brainwash(tm) machine?

You can't get a deeper understanding of MS-Windows because not even MS
knows how it works, and it's more closed than a darkage virgin.
With GNU/Linux you may actually learn something about hardware design by
reading the code in question. Show me where to find the source for the
handling of USB devices in MS-Windows 2000?

Win32s speaks a more modern language? now that's probably the most stupid
claim I've ever heard. It's more basic than hello.c ... Superior? nah,
don't think so, ever really pressed a Windows 2000 system? The so-called
stable "system" crashes under minor pressure. Lotus Domino, MSIE or OE
together? don't think so.

If you really want to learn about hardware, study hardware design.
And, yes, stop trollling!!!

God damn! I'm tired, but the trolls keep me awake ...

-- 
Vicious Vogon - Experienced in dealing with human trash in any form and country.

0
vogon (83)
2/8/2004 12:16:52 AM
ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> wrote:

> Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web
> browsing.  At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC
> for internet connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated,
> and with Windows, it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.
> That's a fact.

> You drive a car, but how much do you rally know about your car?
> Do people have to know how to build and repair a car to drive a
> car?  No.  People just want to be able to use their computers,
> the way they use their cars.  That is not so outrageous.

But the linux zealots believe that if you drive a standard (linux)
you know more about the car than if you drive an automatic
(windoze).  But this is false.  The only thing you know more about
with the standard is shifting gears which you don't have in an
automatic anyway. 

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
2/8/2004 12:38:43 AM
M?ns Rullg?rd <mru@kth.se> wrote:

> You're a bit too far away, I'm afraid.  Seriously though, it's not
> that hard.  Just get a DHCP server running on the Linux gateway and
> the mswindows machines will work fine.  You can of course configure
> everything manually if you want.  I prefer to keep everything in one
> place, though.

But windows users don't need to get a DHCP server running.  That's
trivial stuff that the computer can do automagically.

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
2/8/2004 12:41:41 AM
M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
> 
> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:

> > You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
> > PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)
> 
> You're a bit too far away, I'm afraid.  Seriously though, it's not
> that hard.  Just get a DHCP server running on the Linux gateway and
> the mswindows machines will work fine.  

Details?  :)
0
laura2376 (135)
2/8/2004 1:06:32 AM
Richard Steiner wrote:
> 
> Here in comp.os.linux.x,
> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> spake unto us, saying:

> >You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
> >PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)
> 
> It *is* easy if you use a version of Linux intended for that purpose
> (say, a copy of Coyote Linux):
> 
>   http://www.coyotelinux.com

Thanks for the link.
0
laura2376 (135)
2/8/2004 1:07:15 AM
Ron Matthews wrote:
> 
> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> 
> > Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web
> > browsing.  At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC
> > for internet connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated,
> > and with Windows, it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.
> > That's a fact.
> 
> > You drive a car, but how much do you rally know about your car?
> > Do people have to know how to build and repair a car to drive a
> > car?  No.  People just want to be able to use their computers,
> > the way they use their cars.  That is not so outrageous.
> 
> But the linux zealots believe that if you drive a standard (linux)
> you know more about the car than if you drive an automatic
> (windoze).  But this is false.  The only thing you know more about
> with the standard is shifting gears which you don't have in an
> automatic anyway.
> 
> cordially, as always,
> 
> rm

Thanks for your comments.
0
laura2376 (135)
2/8/2004 1:08:33 AM
In article <nyfVb.14837$ZN1.799336@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews wrote:

> But the linux zealots believe that if you drive a standard
> (linux) you know more about the car than if you drive an
> automatic (windoze).

Sure.

> But this is false.

No, I don't think so.

> The only thing you know more about with the standard is
> shifting gears which you don't have in an automatic anyway.

You don't, eh?

I see you don't know anything about transmissions either.

You seem to have refuted your own point regarding cars more
effectively than any of us ever could.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Used staples are good
                                  at               with SOY SAUCE!
                               visi.com            
0
grante (5416)
2/8/2004 1:23:23 AM
Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> writes:

> M?ns Rullg?rd <mru@kth.se> wrote:
>
>> You're a bit too far away, I'm afraid.  Seriously though, it's not
>> that hard.  Just get a DHCP server running on the Linux gateway and
>> the mswindows machines will work fine.  You can of course configure
>> everything manually if you want.  I prefer to keep everything in one
>> place, though.
>
> But windows users don't need to get a DHCP server running.  That's
> trivial stuff that the computer can do automagically.

All it requires is to paste the example from the manual into
/etc/dhcpd.conf and run dhcpd.  Anyone incapable of that shouldn't be
configuring gateways in the first place.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/8/2004 1:30:56 AM
Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
> In article <nyfVb.14837$ZN1.799336@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews wrote:

> > But the linux zealots believe that if you drive a standard
> > (linux) you know more about the car than if you drive an
> > automatic (windoze).

> Sure.

> > But this is false.

> No, I don't think so.

> > The only thing you know more about with the standard is
> > shifting gears which you don't have in an automatic anyway.

> You don't, eh?

> I see you don't know anything about transmissions either.

> You seem to have refuted your own point regarding cars more
> effectively than any of us ever could.

Automatic transmissions use a fluid coupling.  The point being that
while you have to shift gears with a standard, the shifting is done
hydraulically in an automatic.

Nice try, though.  Your little touche' at the end is a little
amateurish.  Mine's a lot more subtle.

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
2/8/2004 1:34:54 AM
M?ns Rullg?rd <mru@kth.se> wrote:
> Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> writes:

> > M?ns Rullg?rd <mru@kth.se> wrote:
> >
> >> You're a bit too far away, I'm afraid.  Seriously though, it's not
> >> that hard.  Just get a DHCP server running on the Linux gateway and
> >> the mswindows machines will work fine.  You can of course configure
> >> everything manually if you want.  I prefer to keep everything in one
> >> place, though.
> >
> > But windows users don't need to get a DHCP server running.  That's
> > trivial stuff that the computer can do automagically.

> All it requires is to paste the example from the manual into
> /etc/dhcpd.conf and run dhcpd.  Anyone incapable of that
> shouldn't be configuring gateways in the first place.

Or perhaps they should be configuring gateways on a machine that is
not blessed with the man system.  More time is spent looking for
stuff and trying to understand it than anything else...

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
2/8/2004 1:37:08 AM
ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:

> M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
>> 
>> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:
>
>> > You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
>> > PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)
>> 
>> You're a bit too far away, I'm afraid.  Seriously though, it's not
>> that hard.  Just get a DHCP server running on the Linux gateway and
>> the mswindows machines will work fine.  
>
> Details?  :)

Assume that eth0 is the external interface and eth1 is the internal
one.

First you need a configuration file.  This should do as a starting
point:

subnet 192.168.0.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 {
    range 192.168.0.100 192.168.0.254;
}

Save it in /etc/dhcpd.conf.  Then, as root, run "dhcpd eth1".  It
should be configured with a static IP.  Configure the external
interface as per instructions from the ISP.  It's often as simple as
"dhcpcd eth0".

Next, enable IP forwarding.  This is done with one simple command:

echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward

Finally, set up NAT:

iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE

That's it.

Naturally, the appropriate bits should be placed in the system startup
scripts.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/8/2004 1:39:13 AM
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.networking.]
[ excessive crossposting trimmed ]
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:06:32 -0500, ToolPackinMama staggered into the
Black Sun and said:
> M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
>> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:
>> > You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's
>> > Windows PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)
>> You're a bit too far away, I'm afraid.  Seriously though, it's not
>> that hard.  Just get a DHCP server running on the Linux gateway and
>> the mswindows machines will work fine.  
> Details?  :)

On the machine that's directly connected to the cable/DSLmodem, assuming
eth0 is the card connected to the cable/DSL and eth1 is the card
connected to the LAN.  Mans skipped a couple of steps; I'll elaborate:

firewall:~# dhcpcd -d eth0
(obtains IP automagically from cable/DSL via DHCP)
firewall:~# ifconfig eth1 192.168.1.1 up
(sets eth1 to static address 192.168.1.1)

# put in file /etc/dhcp/dhcpd.conf
option domain-name "MY-DOMAIN-NAME";
option domain-name-servers DNS-SERVER-1;
option domain-name-servers DNS-SERVER-2;

default-lease-time 7200;
max-lease-time 14400;

# This is a very basic subnet declaration.
subnet 192.168.1.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 {
  range 192.168.1.3 192.168.1.254;
  option routers 192.168.1.1;
}
# end of dhcpd.conf

(This is the configuration file for dhcpd, the DHCP server on Linux.
Replace the things in ALL CAPS with the appropriate values.  You should
only have to write this config file once.)
firewall:~# /etc/init.d/dhcpd start
(starts dhcpd; now the machines on the LAN will get IPs from 192.168.1.3
to 192.168.1.254 and have their default gateway set to 192.168.1.1--our
firewall.)
firewall:~# iptables -A POSTROUTING -s 192.168.1.0/255.255.255.0 -o eth0
-j MASQUERADE
(sets IP-Masquerading up so that everything behind the firewall can see
the wide Net through the firewall.  This doesn't provide any security,
and it doesn't have any holes in it so that things like Kazaa or Overnet
will work properly.  For details on making those things work right and
securing your firewall, Google "iptables howto".)

That's everything for a barebones config that isn't terribly secure.
This ignores all pointy-clicky frontends your distro may have; post
which distro you're using for more advice on those.  OTOH, it should
work on any distro with a 2.4 kernel; the iptables line needs to be
replaced with a similar ipchains command if you're using a 2.2 kernel.
HTH, more questions on this topic should probably go to the folks at
col.networking.

-- 
Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
Brainbench MVP for Linux Admin /    mail: TRAP + SPAN don't belong
http://www.brainbench.com     /                Hire me! 
-----------------------------/ http://crow202.dyndns.org/~mhgraham/resume
0
2/8/2004 1:57:36 AM
ToolPackinMama wrote:

> Måns Rullgård wrote:
 
>> Let's see:
>> 
>> 1. Dig out old pentium-150.
>> 2. Install two NICs.
>> 3. Install Linux.
>> 4. Plug one NIC into ISP connection.
>> 5. Plug other NIC into switch.
>> 6. Activate IP forwarding.
>> 
>> Six steps and you're set.
> 
> You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
> PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)

Piece a cake.  If you setup the linux router (it's not a gateway...lookup
the term gateway if you don't believe me) then all you need to do is plug
the windos system in and it should work.  Notice I said should, windos
sometimes doesn't do DHCP correctly.

0
baho-utot1 (55)
2/8/2004 2:01:01 AM
Ron Matthews wrote:

> M?ns Rullg?rd <mru@kth.se> wrote:
> 
>> You're a bit too far away, I'm afraid.  Seriously though, it's not
>> that hard.  Just get a DHCP server running on the Linux gateway and
>> the mswindows machines will work fine.  You can of course configure
>> everything manually if you want.  I prefer to keep everything in one
>> place, though.
> 
> But windows users don't need to get a DHCP server running.  That's
> trivial stuff that the computer can do automagically.
> 
> cordially, as always,
> 
> rm

Not if your network conforms to the RFC specs.  And that is just it windos
setting things up by its self usually gets it wrong.

0
baho-utot1 (55)
2/8/2004 2:01:02 AM
Ron Matthews wrote:

 
> Automatic transmissions use a fluid coupling.  The point being that
> while you have to shift gears with a standard, the shifting is done
> hydraulically in an automatic.
> 
> Nice try, though.  Your little touche' at the end is a little
> amateurish.  Mine's a lot more subtle.
> 
> cordially, as always,
> 
> rm

Not so, automatic transmissions use fluid coupling only in the torque
converter.  They use planetary gear sets and wet clutches to accomplish the
changing or shifting of the differnet "gears".
0
baho-utot1 (55)
2/8/2004 3:00:13 AM
Oops! Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> was seen spray-painting on a wall:
> Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> says...
>>the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
>>that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
>>will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
>>understandings of system behaviour.
>>
>>That difference is a good reason why Linux + X + Various Other Tools
>>isn't always the ideal choice for "end users" that are uninterested in
>>having any understanding of how their system works.
>>
>>Unfortunately, there are two additional implications:
>>
>> 1.  For those that actually _want_ a deep understanding of a system,
>>     the steep learning curve associated with Unix means that as long
>>     as they _do_ climb the cliff, they can reach high points
>>     relatively quickly.
>>
>>     With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>>     deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>>     shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>>     gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>>     time-consuming.
>>
>> 2.  For those that only wanted a "shallow" understanding, the
>>     hideous complexity sitting under Windows' surface represents
>>     lurking sharks.
>>
>>     Two obvious "sharks" are:
>>      - System security, and
>>      - Backups/system recovery.
>>
>>     If you _haven't_ a "deep" understanding of Windows, there is a
>>     HUGE risk of getting infected by the "email virus du jour," and
>>     perhaps even compounding that by your inability to recover
>>     documents and various aspects of system state.

> Interesting analysis.  What about the Macintosh BSD-based OS-X?  I
> don't own one but the reports I have seen say that it has a very
> shallow learning curve for most users, yet a deep understanding of
> the system is still easy to achieve.  If that's true, it would seem
> to be a counterexample to your theory.

I have played with it a bit, and my sense is that it's got something
of both paths.

-> The graphical user interface provided by Apple allows novices to
   have a shallow learning curve for controlling some parts of the
   system.

-> On the other hand, it has got a "Unix" underneath, that means that
   those users that are interested may follow the steeper learning
   curve, and figure a lot more of it out.

I'm not certain that Apple has totally succeeded at what they have
done (it is doubtless somewhat disputable both ways), but it certainly
has the major features of a system that builds an
"ignorant-novice-friendly" front end onto Unix.  The only issue is of
how well it has done this, and I haven't a good answer for that.
-- 
select 'cbbrowne' || '@' || 'cbbrowne.com';
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/oses.html
Rules of  the Evil Overlord #110.  "I will not  employ devious schemes
that involve the hero's party getting into my inner sanctum before the
trap is sprung." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
0
cbbrowne (1108)
2/8/2004 3:07:40 AM
In <comp.os.linux.security> Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:
> Oops! Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> was seen spray-painting on a wall:
> > Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> says...
> >> 1.  For those that actually _want_ a deep understanding of a system,
> >>     the steep learning curve associated with Unix means that as long
> >>     as they _do_ climb the cliff, they can reach high points
> >>     relatively quickly.
> >>
> >>     With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
> >>     deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
> >>     shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
> >>     gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
> >>     time-consuming.
> >>
> >> 2.  For those that only wanted a "shallow" understanding, the
> >>     hideous complexity sitting under Windows' surface represents
> >>     lurking sharks.
> >>
> >>     Two obvious "sharks" are:
> >>      - System security, and
> >>      - Backups/system recovery.
> >>
> >>     If you _haven't_ a "deep" understanding of Windows, there is a
> >>     HUGE risk of getting infected by the "email virus du jour," and
> >>     perhaps even compounding that by your inability to recover
> >>     documents and various aspects of system state.
> 
> > Interesting analysis.  What about the Macintosh BSD-based OS-X?  I
> > don't own one but the reports I have seen say that it has a very
> > shallow learning curve for most users, yet a deep understanding of
> > the system is still easy to achieve.  If that's true, it would seem
> > to be a counterexample to your theory.
> 
> I have played with it a bit, and my sense is that it's got something
> of both paths.
> 
> -> The graphical user interface provided by Apple allows novices to
>    have a shallow learning curve for controlling some parts of the
>    system.
> 
> -> On the other hand, it has got a "Unix" underneath, that means that
>    those users that are interested may follow the steeper learning
>    curve, and figure a lot more of it out.
> 
> I'm not certain that Apple has totally succeeded at what they have
> done (it is doubtless somewhat disputable both ways), but it certainly
> has the major features of a system that builds an
> "ignorant-novice-friendly" front end onto Unix.  The only issue is of
> how well it has done this, and I haven't a good answer for that.

1.  I think everyone is missing the most important factor.  Linux cost
    $0 (relatively), and it does with commodity hardwares what other
    Unix does with proprietary hardwares.

2.  In software development, Linux has faster "turn-around" time for bug
    fix and feature addition.  This may or may not be important for
    mission-critical stuffs, but it brings about sense of community
    involvment for socially-deprived programmers. :-)

3.  We Linux guys are the largest driving force behind Internet Porn.
    Here, size counts.

4.  If Microsoft ports MS-Word/Office to Linux, it will kill Sun and
    Novell.  I don't know which side I should cheer.

-- 
William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, <opengeometry@yahoo.ca>
Linux solution for data management and processing. 
0
opengeometry (485)
2/8/2004 3:41:12 AM
Looks like I missed major part of this flame, I just work up and nothing 
  boosts you more than a flame fest :). So, here we go

William Park wrote:
> 
> 
> 1.  I think everyone is missing the most important factor.  Linux cost
>     $0 (relatively), and it does with commodity hardwares what other
>     Unix does with proprietary hardwares.
Also, when I spend lots and lots of money on my hardware, I'd really 
love to save a few bucks when it comes to software(don't judge me, we 
all are like that). The important thing about Linux is, not only it 
costs relatively $0, but offers you a chance to peek into the _acutal_ 
working of the system. Sometimes, even the end-users get crazy ideas :)
> 
> 2.  In software development, Linux has faster "turn-around" time for bug
>     fix and feature addition.  This may or may not be important for
>     mission-critical stuffs, but it brings about sense of community
>     involvment for socially-deprived programmers. :-)
I agree here. Linux's bug fixes arrive faster because some hacker dude 
got irritated, and what more, he knows how to fix it and where to fix 
it. When a new proprietary software is released, I got to wait for 6 
more months even for the trivial of the bug fixes.
> 
> 3.  We Linux guys are the largest driving force behind Internet Porn.
>     Here, size counts.
I don't know how this happens. But I'm glad that I'm one of the "driving 
forces" :-)
> 
> 4.  If Microsoft ports MS-Word/Office to Linux, 
You kiddin' me?
it will kill Sun and
>Novell.  I don't know which side I should cheer.
> 

regards,
GVK
-- 
Happy Hacking!!!

0
vamsee_k (33)
2/8/2004 4:33:16 AM
on Sat February 7 2004 3:16 pm, Vicious Vogon decided to enlighten us with:

> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to climb
> it once.
> 
> Computers isn't easy to use at all, most users don't know what they're up
> to. Pick 1 person (that actually can read and write) off the street and
> put him/her in front of computer, give advanced instructions ... did they
> get it?
> 
> You may try this with any os.

You know, Windows had a steep learning curve too. Did anyone hack the
registry the first time they sat down with Windows? No. Everyone learned
slowly. They just don't seem to remember. Now, they want Linux to magically
feel comfortable and familiar overnight. It isn't going to happen.

For anyone that reads this: I'm the complete opposite of any impression you
may have of geeks using Linux. My other interests are weight lifting,
guitars, drums, automobiles, football, baseball, boxing, and NASCAR. I look
and act nothing like a geek. I can use Linux just fine and so can you! I'm
not versed in all the more complicated Linux stuff, but I use the OS just
as anyone would use Windows. I'm completely capable of fixing problems, and
configuring a new install pretty well. I learned how and so can you!

Just today, I rebooted Linux to run a LiveCD version of Mandrake to see how
it's changed. When I went back to SuSE, my X server wouldn't initialize. No
problem. I just typed 'cd /home/...' to the correct directory and typed 'sh
NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-4496-pkg2.run' and reinstalled the nVidia driver.
Restarted the X server and voila! I'm typing this now. It wasn't hard. I
just learned how and did it. The same way you learned to correct problems
that occur in Windows.

Anyone crying about Linux having a steep learning curve is full of it. It's
no more difficult to learn than the first time you sat down to a computer
and learned about Windows or the Mac back then. You're just doing it all
over again.



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
 12:53am  up   1:24,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.17, 0.24

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
2/8/2004 6:06:37 AM
on Sat February 7 2004 4:42 pm, M�ns Rullg�rd decided to enlighten us with:

>>>
>>> The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to
>>> climb it once.
>>
>> For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."
> 
> Perhaps, but the view from the top of the cliff is magnificent.
> Windows has more of a learning pit, where unsuspecting users slide
> down and get stuck in the mud. 

Well put!



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
  1:08am  up   1:40,  2 users,  load average: 0.06, 0.10, 0.14

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
2/8/2004 6:09:20 AM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 18:27:11 -0500,
 ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
>> 
>> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:
>> 
>> > Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web browsing.
>> > At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC for internet
>> > connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated, and with Windows,
>> > it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.  That's a fact.
>> 
>> Let's see:
>> 
>> 1. Dig out old pentium-150.
>> 2. Install two NICs.
>> 3. Install Linux.
>> 4. Plug one NIC into ISP connection.
>> 5. Plug other NIC into switch.
>> 6. Activate IP forwarding.
>> 
>> Six steps and you're set.
>
> You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
> PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)

<http://download.smoothwall.org/archive/releases/2.0/smoothwall-2.0.iso>

Download, burn, boot, follow the bouncing prompt.                                                                                 
It fits on a business card sized CD. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFAJdWMd90bcYOAWPYRArLGAJ9FMwCTVfBWqG68WEDkB+zreHIiOACeMx15
94eoNTpu+FBluLlIgEdvFjs=
=Bjjm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that,  what you heard, is not what I meant.
0
warlock (9522)
2/8/2004 6:22:04 AM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 01:34:54 GMT,
 Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
>> In article <nyfVb.14837$ZN1.799336@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews wrote:
>
>> > But the linux zealots believe that if you drive a standard
>> > (linux) you know more about the car than if you drive an
>> > automatic (windoze).
>
>> Sure.
>
>> > But this is false.
>
>> No, I don't think so.
>
>> > The only thing you know more about with the standard is
>> > shifting gears which you don't have in an automatic anyway.
>
>> You don't, eh?
>
>> I see you don't know anything about transmissions either.
>
>> You seem to have refuted your own point regarding cars more
>> effectively than any of us ever could.
>
> Automatic transmissions use a fluid coupling.  The point being that
> while you have to shift gears with a standard, the shifting is done
> hydraulically in an automatic.
>

Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.  

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFAJdYbd90bcYOAWPYRApRhAKCccucYA1dzYHV6DoGNdkBfUX38mACggYuE
MtFJVTAZzwZT6hMGt+o1398=
=ccgK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"We are a nation of laws, poorly written and randomly enforced."
-- Frank Zappa
0
warlock (9522)
2/8/2004 6:24:27 AM
In article <2ngVb.43226$9U5.1784613@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews wrote:

>>> The only thing you know more about with the standard is
>>> shifting gears which you don't have in an automatic anyway.
> 
>> You don't, eh?
> 
>> I see you don't know anything about transmissions either.
> 
>> You seem to have refuted your own point regarding cars more
>> effectively than any of us ever could.
> 
> Automatic transmissions use a fluid coupling.

I know.  The torque converter replaces the clutch not the
gears.  An automatic transmission still has gears much like a
standard.

> The point being that while you have to shift gears with a
> standard, the shifting is done hydraulically in an automatic.

No, you said it didn't have gears.  It does.

> Nice try, though.  Your little touche' at the end is a little
> amateurish.  Mine's a lot more subtle.

Subtle doesn't work on a lot of people.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Will this
                                  at               never-ending series of
                               visi.com            PLEASURABLE EVENTS never
                                                   cease?
0
grante (5416)
2/8/2004 6:46:09 AM
William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>4.  If Microsoft ports MS-Word/Office to Linux, it will kill Sun and
>    Novell.  I don't know which side I should cheer.

You know, that's very interesting statement.  I agree with you; a true port
of MS Office to Linux would become a best seller in short order.  That
raises the question: "why haven't they done so?"

One possible reason is that it would eliminate one of the last barriers
keeping casual computer users from switching to Linux for their desktops.
If I could run Office natively on Linux, I would run Linux on my personal
laptop.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
0
timr (1409)
2/8/2004 7:08:39 AM
Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
> Ron Matthews wrote:

> >>> The only thing you know more about with the standard is
> >>> shifting gears which you don't have in an automatic anyway.
> > 
> >> You don't, eh?
> > 
> >> I see you don't know anything about transmissions either.
> > 
> >> You seem to have refuted your own point regarding cars more
> >> effectively than any of us ever could.
> > 
> > Automatic transmissions use a fluid coupling.

> I know.  The torque converter replaces the clutch not the
> gears.  An automatic transmission still has gears much like a
> standard.

No.  A standard you have to change the gears manually which was the
whole point, lost somewhere in immaterial silliness about the
difference between an auto and a standard.

And the bigger point is that knowing a standard and shifting gears
manually does not mean that you know anything more about a car than
using an automatic while shifting gears automatically.  Standards
are cheaper and a very few people can drive them more efficiently
than automatics and that's the only reason they are still around.
Linux is cheaper and a very few people can run it more efficiently
than windows (on a server) and that's why linux is still around.

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
2/8/2004 7:56:05 AM
Ron Matthews schrieb:
> Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:
> 
>>Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
>>>[...]
>>In contrast, the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
>>that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
>>will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
>>understandings of system behaviour.
> 
> That's because the model of system behaviour that windows uses is
> deliberately structured that way.  The model of system behaviour

.... if a deliberate structure implies application crashes with output 
that the ordinary user won't ever be able to understand...

> that Linux follows is very old and primitive.  You don't gain a

It's old, yes, but not primitive... it's easy and flexible at the same 
time. Only files and processes... nothing else is needed. Not even a 
user friendly GUI (i like to have a full featured command line interface 
in case the GUI doesn't start up. Tell me, which Windoze can give me that?

> deeper understanding of your computer with linux, you only get a
> deeper understanding of linux.  And since it takes a longer time to
> get a deeper understanding of linux then it takes to get a deeper
> understanding of windows, windows has the advantage.

You can't get a deeper understanding of Windoze with only what is 
shipped with it. With Linux, (almost) everything is well documented, so 
you can really learn the basics. And, of course, you can gain knowledge 
of the underlying computer principles and hardware by reading and 
studying the source code of, for example, device drivers and even some 
applications like grub. That would be impossible under WIndoze, except 
ypu're an assembly professional, which would claim you to be not an 
ordinary user.

> But linux + X and various other tools show how linux works, not the
> computer.  Linux and Windows both talk to the hardware but Windows
> speaks a more modern language and that's why there are so many more
> users and so much superior hardware.

But with Linux you can read after _how_ it talks to the hardware.

>>Unfortunately, there are two additional implications:
> 
> But linux doesn't give you a deeper understanding of a system.

Not implicitly, but it offers possibilities to the user, and Windoze 
doesn't.

> Linux is the system.  Gaining a deep enough understanding of linux
> to make the hardware work takes more effort than gaining a deep
> enough understanding of windows to make the computer work.

That's why most shallow computer users rely on it (or don't even know 
that there is an alternative) and so most vendors get into the steps of 
microsoft building hardware and drivers for Windoze, cos they can make 
money with it. It's more mercantile than philosophic behaviour.

>>     With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>>     deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>>     shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>>     gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>>     time-consuming.

> Your analogy is totally flawed.  Windows has a "shallow learning
> curve" because it is a more modern language.  It does things

And it's _this_ modern language that withholds the users from getting to 
the basics :-) Besides i don't consider "more modern" as a synonym for 
better or maturity. I think Linux is the more mature product, since it 
has grown for 30+ years and, it doesn't lack performance due to that, 
though Windoze does by providing compatibility to older releases of 
their ... ummm... system crash providers ;-)

> [...]
> This is silly.  I am not sure why I am responding to somebody as
> stupid as you.  You've just bought into a lot of empty myths about

time to become polemic and offensive?

br, Jagged

0
2/8/2004 8:31:17 AM
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:56:05 GMT
Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> wrote:

> Linux is cheaper and a very few people can run it more efficiently
> than windows

Which argument implies that very many people can run Windows
efficiently. In my experience, that is not the case. A *big* chunk of
my income comes from helping these Windows users learn how to use the
OS, fix the problems caused by worms/virii and install programs and
drivers that don't install themselves. I have converted a very small
percentage to Linux and, after the first few weeks, I barely hear from
them. OTOH, many of these Windows clients have been having me do their
support for five years or more.

This is in a town of about 3000 people and a few, much smaller, 
outlying communities. Power to Windows, long may they thrive! If it
wasn't for them, I wouldn't have five Linux computers in my house.
:-)

-- 
Kevin Nathan (Montana, USA)
Open standards. Open source. Open minds.
The command line is the front line.

Linux 2.4.20-4GB-athlon
  1:43am  up 14 days  5:03,  6 users,  load average: 0.27, 0.12, 0.09
0
knathan (44)
2/8/2004 8:52:04 AM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Vicious Vogon wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:21:12 +0000, Ron Matthews <whatever>:
> 
> Nothing worth mentioning ...
> 
> 
> 
> To long in the MS brainwash(tm) machine?

Nah, you just met the alt.os.linux.slackware troll...
> 
> You can't get a deeper understanding of MS-Windows because not even MS
> knows how it works, and it's more closed than a darkage virgin.
> With GNU/Linux you may actually learn something about hardware design by
> reading the code in question. Show me where to find the source for the
> handling of USB devices in MS-Windows 2000?
> 
> Win32s speaks a more modern language? now that's probably the most stupid
> claim I've ever heard. It's more basic than hello.c ... Superior? nah,
> don't think so, ever really pressed a Windows 2000 system? The so-called
> stable "system" crashes under minor pressure. Lotus Domino, MSIE or OE
> together? don't think so.

How about using roxio "Easy CD Creator"? Lots of negative advertising for
it, when the first "Windows 2000 compliant" version would BSOD/freeze
around 90% of the windows 2000 computers out there...

> 
> If you really want to learn about hardware, study hardware design.
> And, yes, stop trollling!!!
> 
> God damn! I'm tired, but the trolls keep me awake ...
> 

Fred

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFAJfp4Dvn9hyzHIq4RAm0yAJwPGXCmMmhnhvx367Om90GAio/pUQCfdJA2
QK1HCBzKjYeUBZEONKqHbb0=
=M88j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
0
pcfreak65 (50)
2/8/2004 8:59:29 AM
Baho Utot <baho-utot@philippines-island.org> writes:
>ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>> Måns Rullgård wrote:
> 
>>> Let's see:
>>> 
>>> 1. Dig out old pentium-150.
>>> 2. Install two NICs.
>>> 3. Install Linux.
>>> 4. Plug one NIC into ISP connection.
>>> 5. Plug other NIC into switch.
>>> 6. Activate IP forwarding.
>>> 
>>> Six steps and you're set.
>> 
>> You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
>> PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)
>
>Piece a cake.

What he said. Getting my Unix network up and working was trivial compared
to trying to get Windows to *stop* dialling the Internet every 10 minutes.


-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]


0
huge (41)
2/8/2004 12:55:12 PM
Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> writes:

>And since it takes a longer time to
>get a deeper understanding of linux then it takes to get a deeper
>understanding of windows,

Untrue. The only way to get a deep understanding of Windows is to work for
Microsoft, since all the internals are secret.

> windows has the advantage.

And therefore nonsense.

>But linux + X and various other tools show how linux works, not the
>computer.  Linux and Windows both talk to the hardware but Windows
>speaks a more modern language and that's why there are so many more
>users and so much superior hardware.

More nonsense.

>Your analogy is totally flawed.  Windows has a "shallow learning
>curve" because it is a more modern language.

Windows isn't a "language". Windows is a copy of a copy of a paradigm
that was invented over 30 years ago. There's nothing very modern about
it.

I suspect you're trolling. Or you're very, very ignorant.



-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]


0
huge (41)
2/8/2004 12:58:53 PM
ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:
>Ron Matthews wrote:
>> 
>> Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:
>> > Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:
>> > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:48 +0000, Fish wrote:
>> > > <snip>
>> > >
>> > > The Unix learning curve has always been steep, but you only have to
>> > > climb it once.
>> 
>> > For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."
>> 
>> > In contrast, the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
>> > that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
>> > will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
>> > understandings of system behaviour.
>> 
>> That's because the model of system behaviour that windows uses is
>> deliberately structured that way.
>
>Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web browsing. 
>At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC for internet
>connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated, and with Windows,
>it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.  That's a fact.

Untrue. You're confusing familiarity with simplicity. In fact, setting
up Internet sharing on Linux (Unix) is trivial. OTOH, I *never* managed
to get my NT box to stop dialling the Internet every 10 minutes. In the
end I had to firewall it off and proxy all the services it needs. And
you know what, *no-one* knows why it is doing this, or how to stop it.


-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]


0
huge (41)
2/8/2004 1:00:35 PM
ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:
>M�ns Rullg�rd wrote:
>> 
>> ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> writes:
>> 
>> > Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web browsing.
>> > At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC for internet
>> > connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated, and with Windows,
>> > it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.  That's a fact.
>> 
>> Let's see:
>> 
>> 1. Dig out old pentium-150.
>> 2. Install two NICs.
>> 3. Install Linux.
>> 4. Plug one NIC into ISP connection.
>> 5. Plug other NIC into switch.
>> 6. Activate IP forwarding.
>> 
>> Six steps and you're set.
>
>You make it sound so easy.

It *is* easy.

-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]


0
huge (41)
2/8/2004 1:01:09 PM
Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> writes:
>ToolPackinMama <laura@lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>
>> Look, most people only use their home PCs for email and web
>> browsing.  At the outside, they like to LAN more than one home PC
>> for internet connection sharing.  That shouldn't be complicated,
>> and with Windows, it's not. With Linux... it's complicated.
>> That's a fact.
>
>> You drive a car, but how much do you rally know about your car?
>> Do people have to know how to build and repair a car to drive a
>> car?  No.  People just want to be able to use their computers,
>> the way they use their cars.  That is not so outrageous.
>
>But the linux zealots believe that if you drive a standard (linux)
>you know more about the car than if you drive an automatic
>(windoze). 

Strawman.

> But this is false.


  The only thing you know more about
>with the standard is shifting gears which you don't have in an
>automatic anyway. 

Glad to see that you know as much about cars as computers. In other
words, nothing.


-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]


0
huge (41)
2/8/2004 1:02:18 PM
Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org> writes:
>Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:

[17 lines snipped]

>> I see you don't know anything about transmissions either.
>
>> You seem to have refuted your own point regarding cars more
>> effectively than any of us ever could.
>
>Automatic transmissions use a fluid coupling.  The point being that
>while you have to shift gears with a standard, the shifting is done
>hydraulically in an automatic.

Jeez, just *look* at those goalposts go!

>
>Nice try, though.  Your little touche' at the end is a little
>amateurish.  Mine's a lot more subtle.

And wrong.


-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]


0
huge (41)
2/8/2004 1:03:49 PM
huge@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) writes:

> OTOH, I *never* managed to get my NT box to stop dialling the
> Internet every 10 minutes. In the end I had to firewall it off and
> proxy all the services it needs. And you know what, *no-one* knows
> why it is doing this, or how to stop it.

It's trying to do a DNS lookup of its SMB domain or workgroup.  I have
no idea how to stop it.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/8/2004 1:54:56 PM
Jim Richardson wrote:

> > You make it sound so easy.  Come on over and LAN my familiy's Windows
> > PCs to my Linux gateway PC.  :)
> 
> <http://download.smoothwall.org/archive/releases/2.0/smoothwall-2.0.iso>
> 
> Download, burn, boot, follow the bouncing prompt.
> It fits on a business card sized CD.

Thank you.
0
laura2376 (135)
2/8/2004 2:49:25 PM
on Sat February 7 2004 5:21 pm, Ron Matthews decided to enlighten us with:

>> For some, it's more like a "learning cliff."
> 
>> In contrast, the thing about Windows (and various other systems) is
>> that the shallower learning curve increases the likelihood that users
>> will never actually learn _anything_ beyond the shallowest of
>> understandings of system behaviour.
> 
> That's because the model of system behaviour that windows uses is
> deliberately structured that way.  The model of system behaviour
> that Linux follows is very old and primitive.  You don't gain a
> deeper understanding of your computer with linux, you only get a
> deeper understanding of linux.  And since it takes a longer time to
> get a deeper understanding of linux then it takes to get a deeper
> understanding of windows, windows has the advantage.

Huh? Where did you come up with this bull$hit?

>> That difference is a good reason why Linux + X + Various Other
>> Tools isn't always the ideal choice for "end users" that are
>> uninterested in having any understanding of how their system
>> works.
> 
> But linux + X and various other tools show how linux works, not the
> computer.  Linux and Windows both talk to the hardware but Windows
> speaks a more modern language and that's why there are so many more
> users and so much superior hardware.

How does Windows speak a more modern language? Please show me... There's
nothing modern about Windows at all. It's built upon ancient DOS
underpinnings that came from a hobbyist computer.
 
>> Unfortunately, there are two additional implications:
> 
>>  1.  For those that actually _want_ a deep understanding of a system,
>>      the steep learning curve associated with Unix means that as long
>>      as they _do_ climb the cliff, they can reach high points
>>      relatively quickly.
> 
> But linux doesn't give you a deeper understanding of a system.
> Linux is the system.  Gaining a deep enough understanding of linux
> to make the hardware work takes more effort than gaining a deep
> enough understanding of windows to make the computer work.

Hmmm. SuSE 9 installed and configured everything completely correctly on my
system except my monitor, which was just picked out of a list after the
fact, and I installed the nVidia driver. That required very little
necessary understanding of they system. To the contrary, Windows Device
Manager, on the same system, still required finding out what was still
giving me an exclaimation and installing the necessary drivers. Then, some
hardware didn't want to play nice. It was a headache.

>>      With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>>      deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>>      shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>>      gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>>      time-consuming.
> 
> Your analogy is totally flawed.  Windows has a "shallow learning
> curve" because it is a more modern language.  It does things
> differently than linux.  To _really_ understand how windows works
> you have to spend just as much work as you do to understand how
> linux works but you are learning different things in a different
> way.

Again, prove to me that Windows is a more modern language. This is totally
bogus.
 
>>  2.  For those that only wanted a "shallow" understanding, the
>>      hideous complexity sitting under Windows' surface represents
>>      lurking sharks.
> 
>>      Two obvious "sharks" are:
>>       - System security, and
>>       - Backups/system recovery.
> 
> This is silly.  I am not sure why I am responding to somebody as
> stupid as you.  You've just bought into a lot of empty myths about
> linux.  There is a reason you have to pay for windows while linux
> is free.  And there is a reason that far more computers use windows
> than linux.   And it's not about any preposterous marketing
> conspiracy.  People are not that stupid.

Yeah, you pay for Windows because you buy into the hype. Linux _is_ more
secure. It was designed that way from the start and not an afterthought
like Windows. User accounts actually operate correctly without applications
needing administrator privledges. Linux users don't (unless their
boneheads) log on to the internet with their root accounts, unlike Windows
users. Have there been Linux vulnerabilities? Yes. However, the open source
community has acted swiftly. Microsoft still needs to fix the url ghosting
vulnerability IE has been suffering for a long time. A 3rd party (ala open
source) fixed it for them!

Look, I'll concede that Windows applications often have more polish and more
features than Linux. Linux can be a bear to install and configure for some
people that have unsupported hardware. However Windows can be a bear to get
hardware running too, sometimes. However, the underlying OS itself is far
better, more secure, and more reliable than Windows ever was, or ever will
be. Other open source software is also very polished and works very well
like OpenOffice, and Mozilla. Mozilla Firebird kicks IE's butt anyday, and
you don't pay a cent for it. There went your theory about getting what you
pay for. And for the record, yes, you do pay for IE. It's cost is bundled
in with that overpriced OS. I could keep going, comparing Evolution with
Outlook and Eudora, and other open source software with Windows bloatware,
but I'll stop there.

The plain truth of the matter is that software is becoming commoditized.
Open source will gain in significance and marketshare in the next 5 years
and will take a big bite out of proprietary software.



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
  9:33am  up  10:05,  2 users,  load average: 0.07, 0.16, 0.17

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
2/8/2004 3:05:17 PM
on Sun February 8 2004 3:52 am, Kevin Nathan decided to enlighten us with:

> This is in a town of about 3000 people and a few, much smaller,
> outlying communities. Power to Windows, long may they thrive! If it
> wasn't for them, I wouldn't have five Linux computers in my house.
> :-)

5??? Why so many? Are you using anything other than SuSE on them?



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
 10:08am  up  10:39,  2 users,  load average: 0.13, 0.25, 0.32

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
2/8/2004 3:09:19 PM
on Sun February 8 2004 1:24 am, Jim Richardson decided to enlighten us with:


> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.

Not CVT...



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
 10:09am  up  10:40,  2 users,  load average: 0.32, 0.27, 0.32

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
2/8/2004 3:09:50 PM
This thread is being crossposted to:

alt.os.linux.slackware
alt.os.linux.suse
comp.os.linux.hardware
comp.os.linux.networking
comp.os.linux.x
comp.os.linux.security

Please trim the groups that you post to.  

0
2/8/2004 3:57:49 PM
This thread is being crossposted to:

alt.os.linux.slackware
alt.os.linux.suse
comp.os.linux.hardware
comp.os.linux.networking
comp.os.linux.x
comp.os.linux.security

Please trim the groups that you post to.  

0
2/8/2004 3:57:59 PM
In article <40265171$0$82225$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net>, Ruel Smith (Big Daddy) wrote:

>> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
>> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.
> 
> Not CVT...

Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  FOOLED you! Absorb
                                  at               EGO SHATTERING impulse
                               visi.com            rays, polyester poltroon!!
0
grante (5416)
2/8/2004 5:15:22 PM
paul cooke wrote:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
> 
> 
>>1.  For those that actually want a deep understanding of a system,
>>the steep learning curve associated with Unix means that as long
>>as they do climb the cliff, they can reach high points
>>relatively quickly.
>>
>>With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>>deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>>shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>>gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>>time-consuming.
> 
> 
> the whole steep shallow learning curve analogy is borked...
> 
> A steep learning curve if you looked at it as % of OS learned versus time
> taken... then a steep learning curve is one where you learn how to use the
> OS quickly. Whilst the converse is true of the shallow learning curve... it
> takes a heck of a long time to learn enough to be productive in that OS
> environment.
> 
> the problem came about because Marketdroids were using the learning curve
> analogy all back to front when making presentations to PHBs... they were
> implying that a "steep" learning curve was one where things were hard to
> learn ie. they were equating it to the difficulty in making progress up a
> steep hill...
> 
> sheesh... how many groups is this cross posted to???

Erm, isn't that what he just said?

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
2/8/2004 5:50:58 PM
GVK wrote:
> Looks like I missed major part of this flame, I just work up and nothing 
>  boosts you more than a flame fest :). So, here we go
> 
> William Park wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> 1.  I think everyone is missing the most important factor.  Linux cost
>>     $0 (relatively), and it does with commodity hardwares what other
>>     Unix does with proprietary hardwares.
> 
> Also, when I spend lots and lots of money on my hardware, I'd really 
> love to save a few bucks when it comes to software(don't judge me, we 
> all are like that). The important thing about Linux is, not only it 
> costs relatively $0, but offers you a chance to peek into the _acutal_ 
> working of the system. Sometimes, even the end-users get crazy ideas :)

Personally, I don't use Linux for the "free beer" either. I like it 
because it is understandable (with study), completely hackable (in the 
good, original sense of the word), and feature rich (rich for free?). 
Now the 2.6 series kernel has arrived, it _really_ makes the most of my 
hardware.

>> 2.  In software development, Linux has faster "turn-around" time for bug
>>     fix and feature addition.  This may or may not be important for
>>     mission-critical stuffs, but it brings about sense of community
>>     involvment for socially-deprived programmers. :-)
> 
> I agree here. Linux's bug fixes arrive faster because some hacker dude 
> got irritated, and what more, he knows how to fix it and where to fix 
> it. When a new proprietary software is released, I got to wait for 6 
> more months even for the trivial of the bug fixes.

God bless Linux.

>> 3.  We Linux guys are the largest driving force behind Internet Porn.
>>     Here, size counts.
> 
> I don't know how this happens. But I'm glad that I'm one of the "driving 
> forces" :-)

God bless Apache.

>> 4.  If Microsoft ports MS-Word/Office to Linux, 
> 
> You kiddin' me?
> it will kill Sun and
> 
>> Novell.  I don't know which side I should cheer.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree on this point.

MS Office and Sun StarOffice would be competing on virtually equal 
ground, and since most Linux users associate the system with "free 
beer", I don't think there would be too many sales (but perhaps quite a 
few users ;) ).

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
2/8/2004 5:58:34 PM
Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> says...
>
>In article <40265171$0$82225$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net>, Ruel Smith (Big Daddy) wrote:
>
>>> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
>>> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.
>> 
>> Not CVT...
>
>Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?

The Volvo 343 was equipped with a 1-4 litre engine and a
continuously variable transmission. 

0
2/8/2004 6:21:22 PM
Ron Matthews wrote:
> That's because the model of system behaviour that windows uses is
> deliberately structured that way.  The model of system behaviour
> that Linux follows is very old and primitive.  You don't gain a
> deeper understanding of your computer with linux, you only get a
> deeper understanding of linux.  And since it takes a longer time to
> get a deeper understanding of linux then it takes to get a deeper
> understanding of windows, windows has the advantage.

Ummm, I'd like to see you do 'ls -R /proc/' in Windows.

However, this is besides the point, since you, the human, directly 
interface with the 'operating system' and its applications, does it 
matter much about the way in which the underlying hardware works?

Most people don't have the facilities to change motherboard, cpu, or PCI 
cards but we do have the ability to change the software we use with 
Linux. In Linux if it doesn't do what we want it to do, we can invest 
some time in understanding it, and then change things.

In Windows, you have many problems with customising it - lack of 
documentation, contractual issues, and other 'intellectual property' 
issues (such as copyright, patents, etc).

There are two reasons for studying:
1. Learning for the sake of knowledge;
2. Learning to do something.

With Windows you are restricted greatly in what you can do.

> But linux + X and various other tools show how linux works, not the
> computer.  Linux and Windows both talk to the hardware but Windows
> speaks a more modern language and that's why there are so many more
> users and so much superior hardware.

"More modern language" my arse. I'd like you to tell me the name of this 
'language'.

There are more users to Windows (as opposed to Mac, OS/2, Linux, etc) 
simply for two reasons:
1.) They "teach" it at schools.
2.) Hardware manufacturers simply don't have the resources/ability to 
write drivers for more than one OS, so they write it for the current 
monopoly.

The above points are now fast changing.

> But linux doesn't give you a deeper understanding of a system.
> Linux is the system.  Gaining a deep enough understanding of linux
> to make the hardware work takes more effort than gaining a deep
> enough understanding of windows to make the computer work.

Just as an example of making your computer do work, try reading every 
file in a certain directory and concatenating them all into one file in 
both operating systems.

You can't do it as easily in Windows, eh?

This is what Linux is all about: Making your computer do what you want 
it to do.

>>     With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>>     deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>>     shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>>     gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>>     time-consuming.
> 
> 
> Your analogy is totally flawed.  Windows has a "shallow learning
> curve" because it is a more modern language.  It does things
> differently than linux.  To _really_ understand how windows works
> you have to spend just as much work as you do to understand how
> linux works but you are learning different things in a different
> way.

Here is that elusive 'modern language' again.

You know what? I don't think you have taken the time to sit down and 
"learn Linux". You might be suprised when you find you can do things 
easily in Linux that are next to impossible in Windows.

>> 2.  For those that only wanted a "shallow" understanding, the
>>     hideous complexity sitting under Windows' surface represents
>>     lurking sharks.
> 
> 
>>     Two obvious "sharks" are:
>>      - System security, and
>>      - Backups/system recovery.
> 
> 
> This is silly.  I am not sure why I am responding to somebody as
> stupid as you.

Nor I. And never call security silly. I'm reading this in 
comp.os.linux.security for heavens sake.

> You've just bought into a lot of empty myths about
> linux.

And you have come to this conclusion how?

> There is a reason you have to pay for windows while linux
> is free.

You appear to have bought into the most common misconception. Linux is 
free as in 'freedom' not 'free beer'.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

> And there is a reason that far more computers use windows
> than linux.  And it's not about any preposterous marketing
> conspiracy.  People are not that stupid.

Three things (two I said before):
1. Windows is "taught" at schools. The most common OS, Windows, is 
familiar when you get to the workplace.
2. Drivers are made for Windows. Your new hardware will only work in the 
most common OS, Windows.
3. Applications are made for Windows. If you want to run much commercial 
software eg. banking software, you have no choice but to run the most 
common OS, Windows.

As soon as Windows isn't the most common anymore, those three crutches 
will vanish.

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
2/8/2004 6:26:30 PM
> There are more users to Windows (as opposed to Mac, OS/2, Linux, etc) 
> simply for two reasons:
> 1.) They "teach" it at schools.
> 2.) Hardware manufacturers simply don't have the resources/ability to 
> write drivers for more than one OS, so they write it for the current 
> monopoly.
> 
> The above points are now fast changing.

No kidding :) For my computer science courses the faculty has now given us 
all accounts on their Linux servers. The servers are inexpensive to 
purchase and maintain, and students can log in remotely and do all their 
programming in a proper multi-user environment. And if students want to do 
the Linux programming on their own, all they have to do is pick up a free 
Knoppix CD... they don't even need to know how to install Linux.

As for hardware, I'll speak from my personal experience. All my hardware 
works under Linux -- sound & network, video, printer, even scanner (that's 
why I bought my Epson scanner... because it has SANE support).

-- 
Jem Berkes
http://www.sysdesign.ca/
0
jb121 (84)
2/8/2004 6:51:56 PM
Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> says...

>1. Windows is "taught" at schools. The most common OS, Windows, is 
>familiar when you get to the workplace.

Eventually the corporations will look at the cost of a Windows
license and a MS Office license and go to the alternative with
lower licensing costs - and "zero" is a nice number!

>2. Drivers are made for Windows. Your new hardware will only work in the 
>most common OS, Windows.

As a hardware designer, I am well aware of this issue.  We hardware
designers have our own solution; hardware standards.  You don't
need a custom driver for a new model of IDE hard disk or CD-ROM any
more; The EIDE and ATAPI standards took care of that.  Eventually
we will standardize all hardware interfaces.  It makes economic sense 
for us.

>3. Applications are made for Windows. If you want to run much commercial 
>software eg. banking software, you have no choice but to run the most 
>common OS, Windows.

Every time WINE gets better, this problem is reduced.  We have a long 
way to go, but the end is in sight.

>As soon as Windows isn't the most common anymore, those three crutches 
>will vanish.

I agree 100%.  I just wanted to list some additional factors.

-- 
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire. 
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you 
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like 
Doc Brown can solve?  My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/ 

0
Guy
2/8/2004 7:18:20 PM
Jem Berkes <jb@users.pc9.org> says...
>
>
>> There are more users to Windows (as opposed to Mac, OS/2, Linux, etc) 
>> simply for two reasons:
>> 1.) They "teach" it at schools.
>> 2.) Hardware manufacturers simply don't have the resources/ability to 
>> write drivers for more than one OS, so they write it for the current 
>> monopoly.
>> 
>> The above points are now fast changing.
>
>No kidding :) For my computer science courses the faculty has now given us 
>all accounts on their Linux servers. The servers are inexpensive to 
>purchase and maintain, and students can log in remotely and do all their 
>programming in a proper multi-user environment. And if students want to do 
>the Linux programming on their own, all they have to do is pick up a free 
>Knoppix CD... they don't even need to know how to install Linux.
>
>As for hardware, I'll speak from my personal experience. All my hardware 
>works under Linux -- sound & network, video, printer, even scanner (that's 
>why I bought my Epson scanner... because it has SANE support).
>
>-- 
>Jem Berkes
>http://www.sysdesign.ca/

-- 
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire. 
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you 
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like 
Doc Brown can solve?  My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/ 

0
Guy
2/8/2004 7:25:17 PM
on Sun February 8 2004 12:15 pm, Grant Edwards decided to enlighten us with:

> In article <40265171$0$82225$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net>, Ruel Smith (Big
> Daddy) wrote:
> 
>>> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
>>> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.
>> 
>> Not CVT...
> 
> Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?
> 

Yes. Honda Civic HX readily comes to mind. I know there are quite a few
others too. They're even starting to make their way into more expensive
cars too.



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
  2:26pm  up  14:57,  2 users,  load average: 0.13, 0.26, 0.21

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
2/8/2004 7:31:41 PM
Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> writes:

>In article <40265171$0$82225$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net>, Ruel Smith (Big Daddy) wrote:

>>> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
>>> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.
>> 
>> Not CVT...

>Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?


Yes; the inventors (Van Doorne's Autombiel Fabriek aka DAF) produced
a variety of small cars using CVTs; quirky feature: they can go as fast
forward as in reverse.  The truck company DAF still exists, the
cars were sold off to Volvo which continued to produce the Volvo 340
[supposed to be designed as the DAF 77] and the Volvo 66 (previously
known as the DAF66).  They started CVT based car production in 1959
and Volvo continued it to well into the 1990's.

Casper
-- 
Expressed in this posting are my opinions.  They are in no way related
to opinions held by my employer, Sun Microsystems.
Statements on Sun products included here are not gospel and may
be fiction rather than truth.
0
Casper.Dik (660)
2/8/2004 7:38:40 PM

Casper H.S. Dik <Casper.Dik@Sun.COM> says...
>
>Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> writes:
>
>>In article <40265171$0$82225$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net>, Ruel Smith (Big Daddy) wrote:
>
>>>> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
>>>> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.
>>> 
>>> Not CVT...
>
>>Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?
>
>Yes; the inventors (Van Doorne's Autombiel Fabriek aka DAF) produced
>a variety of small cars using CVTs; quirky feature: they can go as fast
>forward as in reverse.  The truck company DAF still exists, the
>cars were sold off to Volvo which continued to produce the Volvo 340
>[supposed to be designed as the DAF 77] and the Volvo 66 (previously
>known as the DAF66).  They started CVT based car production in 1959
>and Volvo continued it to well into the 1990's.

Does anyone know whether these were made in significant quantities?

0
2/8/2004 7:56:08 PM
" "@ .  wrote:
> 
> Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> says...
> >
> >Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?
> 
> The Volvo 343 was equipped with a 1-4 litre engine and a
> continuously variable transmission.

Audi currently offers a CVT in their "A6 3.0" model
(http://www.audiusa.com/model_home/0,,modelId-200407,00.html) at least
in the U.S., and presumably elsewhere, too.

Honda currently offers a CVT in their "Civic Hybrid" (gasoline/electric
powered) model. 
(http://www.hondacars.com/models/specifications.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid)


Now can I ask, what do CVTs have to do with the newsgroups to which this
was posted?  (Not that I'm complaining...it's interesting stuff.)
0
jpstewart1 (635)
2/8/2004 8:17:02 PM
Grant Edwards wrote:
> In article <nyfVb.14837$ZN1.799336@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews wrote:
> 
> 
>>But the linux zealots believe that if you drive a standard
>>(linux) you know more about the car than if you drive an
>>automatic (windoze).
> 
> 
> Sure.
> 
> 
>>But this is false.
> 
> 
> No, I don't think so.
> 
> 
>>The only thing you know more about with the standard is
>>shifting gears which you don't have in an automatic anyway.
> 
> 
> You don't, eh?
> 
> I see you don't know anything about transmissions either.
> 
> You seem to have refuted your own point regarding cars more
> effectively than any of us ever could.
> 


Yeah.
If something goes wrong with the transmission in an autotransmission car 
that one uses as a black box, then s/he has to pay $ Godawfulamount to a 
mechanic, but if you know more abt the innards, maybe you can repair it 
yourself. Same applies to compus running Linux. More control over hardware.
0
daneel1 (2)
2/8/2004 8:34:52 PM
John-Paul Stewart <jpstewart@sympatico.ca> writes:

[snip]
> Now can I ask, what do CVTs have to do with the newsgroups to which this
> was posted?  (Not that I'm complaining...it's interesting stuff.)

I'll have to come back should I ever consider a honda or volvo, whilst
feeling the urge to equip one with a linux-based mp3-player or sat-nav
box? ;)

~Tim
-- 
A Celtic fire, a soul of white              |piglet@stirfried.vegetable.org.uk
                                            |http://spodzone.org.uk/cesspit/
0
2/8/2004 8:58:23 PM
Guy Macon wrote:
> Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> says...
> 
> 
>>1. Windows is "taught" at schools. The most common OS, Windows, is 
>>familiar when you get to the workplace.
> 
> 
> Eventually the corporations will look at the cost of a Windows
> license and a MS Office license and go to the alternative with
> lower licensing costs - and "zero" is a nice number!

Coupled together with Unix/Linux starting to be used/taught at 
Universities (and slowly making their way down to lower years), 
corporations will soon have no excuse not to make the switch. Tick, Tock.

>>2. Drivers are made for Windows. Your new hardware will only work in the 
>>most common OS, Windows.
> 
> As a hardware designer, I am well aware of this issue.  We hardware
> designers have our own solution; hardware standards.  You don't
> need a custom driver for a new model of IDE hard disk or CD-ROM any
> more; The EIDE and ATAPI standards took care of that.  Eventually
> we will standardize all hardware interfaces.  It makes economic sense 
> for us.

I just want to make sure I'm clear that I wasn't taking a poke anybody 
in particular, not least the engineers (you just gotta love 'em!).

Hardware standardisation has always been a goal of many hardware groups 
(aye, for cost reasons), and they are getting there, if a little 
haphazardly. Many interfaces are now pretty much transparently standard, 
which is an excellent thing to have happened. Hurrah for the hardware guys!

However, there is much to be done in terms of multimedia hardware, 
especially graphics cards. This is unfortunately a difficult area 
because they have become so powerful and complex as of late. Coupled 
together with complex patent issues it is difficult to write open 
sourced drivers for them. So it gets left up to the manufacturer.

Thankfully, the top three (3d) graphics card manufacturers all have 
(unofficial) support for Linux with drivers that really are maturing, if 
a little slower than for Windows.

Standardisation together with good (unofficial) drivers is slowing 
winning this battle.

>>3. Applications are made for Windows. If you want to run much commercial 
>>software eg. banking software, you have no choice but to run the most 
>>common OS, Windows.
> 
> Every time WINE gets better, this problem is reduced.  We have a long 
> way to go, but the end is in sight.

Mmmm, WINE - it maketh my heart merry. Good progress by the team, 'nuff 
said.

>>As soon as Windows isn't the most common anymore, those three crutches 
>>will vanish.
> 
> I agree 100%.  I just wanted to list some additional factors.
> 

[Post ends with "Europe - It's the Final Countdown" playing us out.;-D]

-- 
Ben M.

PS, where are my darned schematics? I want schematics with my hardware 
like days of old!

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
2/8/2004 9:05:31 PM
Vicious Vogon wrote:
> God damn! I'm tired, but the trolls keep me awake ...

Lol, they keep me up nights too.

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
2/8/2004 9:52:14 PM
on Sun February 8 2004 2:56 pm, �@�.� decided to enlighten us with:

> 
> 
> Casper H.S. Dik <Casper.Dik@Sun.COM> says...
>>
>>Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> writes:
>>
>>>In article <40265171$0$82225$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net>, Ruel Smith (Big
>>>Daddy) wrote:
>>
>>>>> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
>>>>> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.
>>>> 
>>>> Not CVT...
>>
>>>Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?
>>
>>Yes; the inventors (Van Doorne's Autombiel Fabriek aka DAF) produced
>>a variety of small cars using CVTs; quirky feature: they can go as fast
>>forward as in reverse.  The truck company DAF still exists, the
>>cars were sold off to Volvo which continued to produce the Volvo 340
>>[supposed to be designed as the DAF 77] and the Volvo 66 (previously
>>known as the DAF66).  They started CVT based car production in 1959
>>and Volvo continued it to well into the 1990's.
> 
> Does anyone know whether these were made in significant quantities?

CVT transmissions? They're available in the current Honda Civic HX. Is that
enough quantity? Most manufacturers have CVT based cars of some sort
nowadays.



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
  5:25pm  up  17:56,  2 users,  load average: 0.33, 0.30, 0.20

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
2/8/2004 10:26:36 PM
On 2004-02-08, John-Paul Stewart <jpstewart@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> says...
>>
>> >Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?
>> 
>> The Volvo 343 was equipped with a 1-4 litre engine and a
>> continuously variable transmission.
>
> Audi currently offers a CVT in their "A6 3.0" model
> (http://www.audiusa.com/model_home/0,,modelId-200407,00.html) at least
> in the U.S., and presumably elsewhere, too.
>
> Honda currently offers a CVT in their "Civic Hybrid"
> (gasoline/electric powered) model. 
> (http://www.hondacars.com/models/specifications.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid)

Very interesting.  Thanks for the links.  I'm not surprised at
the Civic hybrid (which seems like an ideal application for a
CVT), but I wouldn't have guessed an A6 was available with a
CVT.

> Now can I ask, what do CVTs have to do with the newsgroups to which this
> was posted?

Nothing whatsoever. 

> (Not that I'm complaining...it's interesting stuff.)

;)

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I feel... JUGULAR...
                                  at               
                               visi.com            
0
grante (5416)
2/8/2004 10:39:55 PM
Daneel Olivaw <daneel@mail.utexas.edu> says...

>If something goes wrong with the transmission in an autotransmission car 
>that one uses as a black box, then s/he has to pay $ Godawfulamount to a 
>mechanic, but if you know more abt the innards, maybe you can repair it 
>yourself. Same applies to compus running Linux. More control over hardware.

Linux has the automatic transmission if you want it. X plus KDE.
Windows has the manual transmission if you want it.  The Command 
Console.  The difference is, as Daneel pointed out, is whether
the transmission is a black box.  With Windows, both the auto and 
the manual is a black box.  You don't know what's going on inside
and you don't have the tools to fix it.  With Linux there are 
manuals that talk about the internals, accessports so that you 
can see the internals, a full set of tools, and a machine shop.

0
Guy
2/9/2004 2:38:02 AM
In <comp.os.linux.security> Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> wrote:
> William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >
> >4.  If Microsoft ports MS-Word/Office to Linux, it will kill Sun and
> >    Novell.  I don't know which side I should cheer.
> 
> You know, that's very interesting statement.  I agree with you; a true port
> of MS Office to Linux would become a best seller in short order.  That
> raises the question: "why haven't they done so?"
> 
> One possible reason is that it would eliminate one of the last barriers
> keeping casual computer users from switching to Linux for their desktops.
> If I could run Office natively on Linux, I would run Linux on my personal
> laptop.

I suspect Microsoft is waiting for others to commit their companies on
Linux platform.  Then, Microsoft will come in and clean them up.  "Kill
many birds with one stone." There is nothing to prevent Microsoft from
selling Linux OS.  They will lose revenue from Windows sale, but they
can raise MS-Office price proportionately.

-- 
William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, <opengeometry@yahoo.ca>
Linux solution for data management and processing. 
0
opengeometry (485)
2/9/2004 4:23:56 AM
In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> transmitted:
> William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>4.  If Microsoft ports MS-Word/Office to Linux, it will kill Sun and
>>Novell.  I don't know which side I should cheer.
>
> You know, that's very interesting statement.  I agree with you; a
> true port of MS Office to Linux would become a best seller in short
> order.  That raises the question: "why haven't they done so?"
>
> One possible reason is that it would eliminate one of the last
> barriers keeping casual computer users from switching to Linux for
> their desktops.  If I could run Office natively on Linux, I would
> run Linux on my personal laptop.

Another reason may be that the people that run Microsoft have billion
dollar egos, and admitting, in public, that Linux is good enough for
the purpose, would be a billion dollar personal embarrassment.

Gates is already a many-times-over-billionaire; he doesn't need MS
Office-for-Linux in order to satisfy his need for wealth.
-- 
output = ("aa454" "@" "freenet.carleton.ca")
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/linuxxian.html
"Over a hundred years ago, the German poet Heine
 warned the French not to underestimate the power of ideas:
 philosophical concepts nurtured in the stillness of a
 professor's study could destroy a civilization."
    --Isaiah Berlin in /The Power of Ideas/
0
cbbrowne (1108)
2/9/2004 4:31:58 AM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08 Feb 2004 17:15:22 GMT,
 Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
> In article <40265171$0$82225$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net>, Ruel Smith (Big Daddy) wrote:
>
>>> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
>>> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.
>> 
>> Not CVT...
>
> Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?
>

DAF had one for a while. Piece of junk, but it wasn't just the CVT's
fault :) 


There were/are several CVT styles out, although the only one I am
familiar with in modern usage is the stacked cones and belts version
that the DAF and many snowmobiles use. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFAJz3zd90bcYOAWPYRAhCSAJ9kv8UwXAjDc44fv7OIsqN1/jXK2wCgs0zd
NL/eaKnxjgliebAp7HqDmA8=
=Znhg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
I've noticed that when a new policy mentions me by name,
it's never a good thing.
0
warlock (9522)
2/9/2004 7:59:47 AM
On 9 Feb 2004 04:23:56 GMT,
William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca>, in
<c0720r$14345t$1@ID-99293.news.uni-berlin.de> wrote:

>+ I suspect Microsoft is waiting for others to commit their companies on
>+ Linux platform.  Then, Microsoft will come in and clean them up.  "Kill
>+ many birds with one stone." There is nothing to prevent Microsoft from
>+ selling Linux OS.  They will lose revenue from Windows sale, but they
>+ can raise MS-Office price proportionately.

Double the price of Office? MS has exactly two divisions making money
(hand over fist): the Operating Systems group, and Office. Everyone
else - Xbox, MSN, blah blah blah are losing money.

MS is a convicted monopoly. They're not going to give up the one tool
that they use to put hardware resellers over a barrel. And if you
don't think the major vendors aren't over a barrel, tell me where I
can buy a laptop *without* a Microsoft OS preinstalled.

Major vendors being Toshiba, Dell, IBM, HP+Compaq, and Sony. Oh, and
maybe Gateway...

James
-- 
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow
isn't looking good, either.
I am BOFH. Resistance is futile. Your network will be assimilated.
0
sy_nttvr (41)
2/9/2004 1:11:55 PM
....and you are crossposting this into a bunch of Linux newsgroups - why?

Jim Richardson <warlock@eskimo.com> says...
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On 08 Feb 2004 17:15:22 GMT,
> Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
>> In article <40265171$0$82225$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net>, Ruel Smith (Big Daddy) wrote:
>>
>>>> Automatic transmissions of that type use fluid coupling in place of a
>>>> clutch, they still shift mechanical gear trains.
>>> 
>>> Not CVT...
>>
>> Have any CVTs made it into production automobiles?
>>
>
>DAF had one for a while. Piece of junk, but it wasn't just the CVT's
>fault :) 
>
>
>There were/are several CVT styles out, although the only one I am
>familiar with in modern usage is the stacked cones and belts version
>that the DAF and many snowmobiles use. 
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
>
>iD8DBQFAJz3zd90bcYOAWPYRAhCSAJ9kv8UwXAjDc44fv7OIsqN1/jXK2wCgs0zd
>NL/eaKnxjgliebAp7HqDmA8=
>=Znhg
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>-- 
>Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
>I've noticed that when a new policy mentions me by name,
>it's never a good thing.

-- 
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire. 
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you 
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like 
Doc Brown can solve?  My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/ 

0
2/9/2004 4:49:17 PM
In message <sxdVb.43039$9U5.1744340@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews 
<whoknows@whocares.org> writes
>
>That's because the model of system behaviour that windows uses is
>deliberately structured that way.  The model of system behaviour
>that Linux follows is very old and primitive.  You don't gain a
>deeper understanding of your computer with linux, you only get a
>deeper understanding of linux.  And since it takes a longer time to
>get a deeper understanding of linux then it takes to get a deeper
>understanding of windows, windows has the advantage.
>
<Snip>
>
>But linux + X and various other tools show how linux works, not the
>computer.  Linux and Windows both talk to the hardware but Windows
>speaks a more modern language and that's why there are so many more
>users and so much superior hardware.
>
<Snip>
>
>But linux doesn't give you a deeper understanding of a system.
>Linux is the system.  Gaining a deep enough understanding of linux
>to make the hardware work takes more effort than gaining a deep
>enough understanding of windows to make the computer work.
>

You seem certain that an understanding of the computer is important. 
Why? A computer is a collection of extremely secret and proprietary 
hardware that evolves rapidly. Nobody fixes broken computers, they just 
throw away complete, unrepairable subassemblies and buy new ones. After 
a couple of years, they throw away complete, *working* subassemblies and 
buy new ones. Why do you need to know how they work?

What you need to know about is software. Specifically, when one of 
today's extremely fragile collections of thousands of millions of bytes 
fails to do the job, how to fix it without wiping the whole lot and 
reinstalling. And don't just say "System Restore", that only works in 
the most blatantly obvious fault situations. When you haven't 
accidentally deleted a system file, when the problem is built into the 
software itself, it's worthless.


>>      With Windows, the shallow learning curve means you can't get a
>>      deep understanding quickly.  It's like a beach with a really
>>      shallow grade; you may have to wade out 2 miles until the water
>>      gets deep enough to swim in, and that is both irritating and
>>      time-consuming.
>
>Your analogy is totally flawed.  Windows has a "shallow learning
>curve" because it is a more modern language.  It does things
>differently than linux.  To _really_ understand how windows works
>you have to spend just as much work as you do to understand how
>linux works but you are learning different things in a different
>way.
>
To get much of an understanding of Windows you need a good understanding 
of how Linux works. From the deliberately different customs of DOS, 
Windows is slowly moving towards the Unix way of doing things. "Active 
Directory" indeed, it's just LDAP and Kerberos and some protocols for 
synchronising databases and administering ACLs.

Read the Microsoft Press MCSE books for 2003 Server core "skills". 
There's almost nothing about how Windows works, it's all about using 
Microsoft's dialogue boxes to operate Microsoft's massive administration 
layer built over the OS. It's all about forests and trees and OUs and 
trusts and modes of operation depending which OS the other domain 
controllers run, and very little about troubleshooting driver and 
startup problems. And no, that's not because there are no problems.
>
>This is silly.  I am not sure why I am responding to somebody as
>stupid as you.  You've just bought into a lot of empty myths about
>linux.  There is a reason you have to pay for windows while linux
>is free.  And there is a reason that far more computers use windows
>than linux.   And it's not about any preposterous marketing
>conspiracy.  People are not that stupid.
>
Absolutely correct. Though they are nearly that stupid. Windows is more 
widespread because it's much older, and grew up with the spread of the 
personal computer, over a period when there was no competition..
-- 
Joe
0
joe324 (175)
2/9/2004 8:53:57 PM
In message <pYlVb.27147$bp1.955744@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews 
<whoknows@whocares.org> writes
>
>No.  A standard you have to change the gears manually which was the
>whole point, lost somewhere in immaterial silliness about the
>difference between an auto and a standard.
>
A better analogy would be between automatic and manual choke, in the 
days of carburettors. Remember auto chokes, anyone? Did yours work?
-- 
Joe
0
joe324 (175)
2/9/2004 8:59:44 PM
In message <9_SdnSanbMSawLvd4p2dnA@speakeasy.net>, �@?.?.invalid writes
>
>This thread is being crossposted to:
>
>alt.os.linux.slackware
>alt.os.linux.suse
>comp.os.linux.hardware
>comp.os.linux.networking
>comp.os.linux.x
>comp.os.linux.security
>
>Please trim the groups that you post to.
>
Most of us are well aware of this, but are less sure about which groups 
have nobody reading it and can be safely trimmed. Which would you 
suggest?
-- 
Joe
0
Joe
2/9/2004 9:11:26 PM
On 2004-02-09, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> In message <pYlVb.27147$bp1.955744@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews 
>
>>No.  A standard you have to change the gears manually which was
>>the whole point, lost somewhere in immaterial silliness about
>>the difference between an auto and a standard.
>
> A better analogy would be between automatic and manual choke,
> in the days of carburettors. Remember auto chokes, anyone? Did
> yours work?

I remember my dad complaining about them and wishing for a
manual one.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Remember, in 2039,
                                  at               MOUSSE & PASTA will
                               visi.com            be available ONLY by
                                                   prescription!!
0
grante (5416)
2/9/2004 9:50:49 PM
Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> says...
>
>On 2004-02-09, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>> In message <pYlVb.27147$bp1.955744@news20.bellglobal.com>, Ron Matthews 
>>
>>>No.  A standard you have to change the gears manually which was
>>>the whole point, lost somewhere in immaterial silliness about
>>>the difference between an auto and a standard.
>>
>> A better analogy would be between automatic and manual choke,
>> in the days of carburettors. Remember auto chokes, anyone? Did
>> yours work?
>
>I remember my dad complaining about them and wishing for a
>manual one.

Linux is like a car with an automatic choke that you have the plans
for and which you have the tools to fix.


0
Guy
2/9/2004 10:35:54 PM
Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

> >But linux doesn't give you a deeper understanding of a system.
> >Linux is the system.  Gaining a deep enough understanding of linux
> >to make the hardware work takes more effort than gaining a deep
> >enough understanding of windows to make the computer work.

> You seem certain that an understanding of the computer is important. 

It is if you are going to write system software.

> Why? A computer is a collection of extremely secret and proprietary 
> hardware that evolves rapidly.

Nonsense.

> Nobody fixes broken computers, they just throw away complete,
> unrepairable subassemblies and buy new ones. After a couple of
> years, they throw away complete, *working* subassemblies and buy
> new ones. Why do you need to know how they work?

You need to understand the hardware so that you can write the
software.

> What you need to know about is software.

What kind of software are you talking about?  Stuff written in
Java?  Visual Basic?

Cobol?

You don't know what you're talking about.

G'nite Wanda,

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
2/9/2004 10:43:57 PM
Ron Matthews wrote:

> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> 
>> >But linux doesn't give you a deeper understanding of a system.
>> >Linux is the system.  Gaining a deep enough understanding of linux
>> >to make the hardware work takes more effort than gaining a deep
>> >enough understanding of windows to make the computer work.
> 
>> You seem certain that an understanding of the computer is important.
> 
> It is if you are going to write system software.

not true. what understanding of your computer do you need to write a program
which manipulates /etc/inittab as just one example.

> 
>> Why? A computer is a collection of extremely secret and proprietary
>> hardware that evolves rapidly.
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
>> Nobody fixes broken computers, they just throw away complete,
>> unrepairable subassemblies and buy new ones. After a couple of
>> years, they throw away complete, *working* subassemblies and buy
>> new ones. Why do you need to know how they work?
> 
> You need to understand the hardware so that you can write the
> software.

How do you explain java programs? Run on x86, Macs, IBM's power
processesors, and even my mobile phone (no, it does not run either a cut
down windows or linux - LG 7100)

> 
>> What you need to know about is software.
> 
> What kind of software are you talking about?  Stuff written in
> Java?  Visual Basic?
> 
> Cobol?

Irrelevant. A gtk-perl program looks and can be used if so designed, exactly
the same as a c program using gtk.

> 
> You don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> G'nite Wanda,
> 
> cordially, as always,
> 
> rm

i currently have 38 killfile entries for you... no, make that 49.

Fred
0
pcfreak65 (50)
2/9/2004 11:32:26 PM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


| Ron Matthews wrote:

|>But the linux zealots believe that if you drive a standard (linux)
|>you know more about the car than if you drive an automatic
|>(windoze).  But this is false.  The only thing you know more about
|>with the standard is shifting gears which you don't have in an
|>automatic anyway.
|>
|>cordially, as always,
|>
|>rm

(I'm answering here, because my filter works effectively :))

Oh, what a perfect car it would be if:
- - you couldn't even take a look at its engine
- - after purchasing it you'd have to call assistance to turn it on
- - it asked you ten times if you really, really, really wanted to push
a brake that hard (and you would hit a tree in the meantime)
- - you had to pay 1000x more money for it

Oh, dear. I'll rather drive it my (slackware-) current way.
jkb


- --
Im wyzszy postawisz sobie cel, tym bardziej bedziesz samotny.
(R. Kapuscinski)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFAKCBMQhBzeHEgRd4RAjKUAJ9I2tFz0t0pWCJGlFKhVUJClz7AfgCgr8Tv
k4ZXJcZbbOHyDUdH6LypXh4=
=R9s0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
0
rainman (2)
2/10/2004 12:05:33 AM
Ron Matthews wrote:
> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>>But linux doesn't give you a deeper understanding of a system.
>>>Linux is the system.  Gaining a deep enough understanding of linux
>>>to make the hardware work takes more effort than gaining a deep
>>>enough understanding of windows to make the computer work.
> 
> 
>>You seem certain that an understanding of the computer is important. 
> 
> 
> It is if you are going to write system software.

Does that sentence serve any point? What does that have to do with the 
previous postings?

Here's my chance to use a word I learnt recently: You, my dear Sir, are 
"polemic".

>>Why? A computer is a collection of extremely secret and proprietary 
>>hardware that evolves rapidly.
> 
> Nonsense.

Not at all.

Whilst the overall structure of the way the hardware is put together is 
based on standards, the actual hardware components are increasingly 
complex from generation to generation.

This complexity is tightly guarded by Patents and lack of public 
schematics and documentation, to protect the increasing cost of R&D.

So why the "nonsense" brushing aside?

>>Nobody fixes broken computers, they just throw away complete,
>>unrepairable subassemblies and buy new ones. After a couple of
>>years, they throw away complete, *working* subassemblies and buy
>>new ones. Why do you need to know how they work?
> 
> You need to understand the hardware so that you can write the
> software.

There are three cases in which you need to know about the hardware:
1.) You're programming in assembly;
2.) You're writing drivers;
3.) You're writing kernel code.

Very few people are insane enough to do 1 anymore. Nobody does big 
projects with assembly code as the main language.

You can only do 2 if you have the right documentation. This usually 
comes either: by being an employee of the hardware manufacturer, or by 
getting hold of very rare public documentation, usually by begging the 
manufacturer.

You can only do 3 with free software. That means not Windows.

In short, what are you trying to do except cause argument?

>>What you need to know about is software.
> 
> What kind of software are you talking about?  Stuff written in
> Java?  Visual Basic?
> 
> Cobol?

Huh? You seem to know the names of a few languages. So what?

> You don't know what you're talking about.

If anything, you helped Joe's case. That leads me to think the above 
applies to you.

> cordially, as always,
> 
> rm

I really don't see anything hearty, sincere, warm or affectionate in 
your post.

Please, if you're going to post make sure you have a point and that it's 
relevant to the previous postings.

-- 
Ben M.

----------------
What are Software Patents for?
To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.

What do Software Patents do?
In its current form, they protect only companies with
big legal departments as they:
a.) Patent everything no matter how general
b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
	invalid, small companies can ill-afford	the
	typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
	years of harassment).

Don't let them take away your right to program
whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
before its too late.

Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
----------------

0
2/10/2004 12:38:57 AM
Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote:

> Whilst the overall structure of the way the hardware is put
> together is based on standards,

Relevant.  You have to know the hardware differences between a mac
and a pc to write system software.

> the actual hardware components are increasingly complex from
> generation to generation.

Irrelevant.

> This complexity is tightly guarded by Patents and lack of public 
> schematics and documentation, to protect the increasing cost of R&D.

If the hardware is patented, then the hardware schematics are
available to anyone.  All a patent means is that it cannot be
legally copied.

> So why the "nonsense" brushing aside?

Because you're wrong.

> >>Nobody fixes broken computers, they just throw away complete,
> >>unrepairable subassemblies and buy new ones. After a couple of
> >>years, they throw away complete, *working* subassemblies and buy
> >>new ones. Why do you need to know how they work?
> > 
> > You need to understand the hardware so that you can write the
> > software.

> There are three cases in which you need to know about the hardware:
> 1.) You're programming in assembly;

You cannot write effectively in C if you don't know the hardware.
Do you think it is possible to write a kernel w/o knowing the
hardware?

> 2.) You're writing drivers;
> 3.) You're writing kernel code.

> Very few people are insane enough to do 1 anymore. Nobody does big 
> projects with assembly code as the main language.

That's right.  Most assembly is inlined in C code.

> You can only do 2 if you have the right documentation. This
> usually comes either: by being an employee of the hardware
> manufacturer, or by getting hold of very rare public
> documentation, usually by begging the manufacturer.

Or simply searching the patent office, assuming the hardware is
patented.

> You can only do 3 with free software. That means not Windows.

Hardly.  You can write your own kernel and charge whatever you want
for it.  Only free software, my ass.

> In short, what are you trying to do except cause argument?

_You_ have taken the argument well beyond the boundaries of the
original debate.  I merely pointed out that learning linux teaches
you no more about what your hardware is actually doing than
learning windoze teaches.  Those who claim they are "learning more"
when they use linux are learning more about linux, not the computer
itself.  Learning linux helps you understand windoze as much as
learning windoze helps you understand linux.  IOW, windoze has the
advantage because you don't have to learn as much to come to an
identical understanding of how the hardware works.

It that is being "polemic," then so be it.

cordially, as always,

rm
0
whoknows1 (12)
2/10/2004 1:03:44 AM
rainman@polbox.com wrote:

[snip]

Please don't crosspost to six newsgroups.

0
2/10/2004 1:25:24 AM
MikeyD <m_donaghy50@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<1075140418.44071.0@dyke.uk.clara.net>...
> Well, I'll tell you that as soon as you can tell me (for windows):
> 
> -how to make my sound card drivers stop getting randomly corrupted.
> 
> -how to access my cdrom drive without having to reinstall the drivers every
> time I reboot
> 
> -how to get all the programs I want to run on start up to run on startup
> (atm about half run and I have a batchfile to launch all the others)
> 
> -how to get my dvd drive working
> 
> -how to avoid getting a BSOD every other bootup

maybe try reinstalling Windows
0
2/11/2004 4:55:56 PM
MikeyD <m_donaghy50@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<1075140418.44071.0@dyke.uk.clara.net>...

> Well, I'll tell you that as soon as you can tell me (for windows):
> 
> -how to make my sound card drivers stop getting randomly corrupted.

In Windows NT/2K,  Set your permissions properly and don't run as
administrator.  Also, it's well known that those who crosspost to
alt.os.linux.slackware, alt.os.linux.suse, comp.os.linux.hardware,
and comp.os.linux.x have more problems with their computers. 
 
> -how to access my cdrom drive without having to reinstall 
> the drivers every time I reboot

Other Windows users don't have this problem.  Try a fresh install
of Windows, then install the latest drivers.  This is a known problem 
that is caused by crossposting to alt.os.linux.slackware, 
alt.os.linux.suse, comp.os.linux.hardware, and comp.os.linux.x 
have more problem with their computers. 

> -how to get all the programs I want to run on start up to run on startup
> (atm about half run and I have a batchfile to launch all the others)

Run your batch file on startup.  Also, try not crossposting to 
alt.os.linux.slackware, alt.os.linux.suse, comp.os.linux.hardware,
and comp.os.linux.x.  That should help. 

> -how to get my dvd drive working

Install the latest windows drivers and don't crosspost to
alt.os.linux.slackware, alt.os.linux.suse, comp.os.linux.hardware,
and comp.os.linux.x 

> -how to avoid getting a BSOD every other bootup

Learn how to set up and configure Windows.  Experienced Windows 
users hardly ever get a BSOD at bootup.  They get a BSOD after
doing several hours of editing without saving.

Ignore that man in the corner who says that Linux doesn't crash
all of the time.  He is intelligent, as evidenced by the fact 
that he doesn't crosspost to alt.os.linux.slackware, alt.os.linux.suse, 
comp.os.linux.hardware, and comp.os.linux.x.   

(Note to the humor impaired: this is a parody of the Troll who 
blames all hardware problems on PGP signing of posts.  In the real
world, crossposting to alt.os.linux.slackware, alt.os.linux.suse, 
comp.os.linux.hardware, and comp.os.linux.x doesn't do anything
to your drivers.  It merely marks you as a clueless fool who is
too dim to trim his newsgroup line.)

0
2/11/2004 6:05:25 PM
Sam Joharay wrote:

> MikeyD <m_donaghy50@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<1075140418.44071.0@dyke.uk.clara.net>...
>> Well, I'll tell you that as soon as you can tell me (for windows):
>> 
>> -how to make my sound card drivers stop getting randomly corrupted.
>> 
>> -how to access my cdrom drive without having to reinstall the drivers
>> every time I reboot
>> 
>> -how to get all the programs I want to run on start up to run on startup
>> (atm about half run and I have a batchfile to launch all the others)
>> 
>> -how to get my dvd drive working
>> 
>> -how to avoid getting a BSOD every other bootup
> 
> maybe try reinstalling Windows

I work  with both on a daily basis, and XP is actually a very stable
release, but the point is that any release is good for someone who knows
their system and are willing to learn the insides. Linux is very short on
apps, and I wish IBM, Novell and HP will get smart and start targeting end
users with the same efforts they target big corps. We need more programs
like Quicken and MS-Money to run natively and not have to run X-over
(sucks)or VMware which costs as much as XP license does. The battle is not
won by tanks and jet's, it is won by the ground troops, house by house. 
It is very annoying to run Make, Make All and Make config when all you want
is a simple app to run, and on the other hand it is quite annoying
rebooting a 7x24x365 system after every security patch. Neither one is
perfect, each has it's market niche, but Linux has to chase faster in order
to get the public recognition, and get out of the closet.

My 1 cent.

-- 
Wood Contour Inc.
Solid Wood & Stone PC Peripherals.
http://store.woodcontour.net

0
none10 (4038)
2/12/2004 4:57:33 AM
Wood Co <none@none.com> says...

>VMware which costs as much as XP license does.

What we need is an open source replacement for VMWare.

0
2/12/2004 5:03:26 AM
I have to agree with the previous posting.  I am not an IT professional or
programmer.  Just a home office user and my needs are a system with software
to make my work (sales) easier.

My observations as a linux/SuSE 9.0 Pro newbie are that:

1.  Font setup and screen display of fonts is terrible.
2.  Difficult to install the browser and email client I want to use.
3.  OpenOffice 1.1 is still slower than MS Office but seems to work as well.
4.  Difficult to set up or have OS recognize (win)modem in system for
faxing.
5.  Unable to set up HP scanner and fax machine that are networked on HP
JetDirect.
6.  Unable to set up Evolution 1.4 and spamassassin to work well to filter
spam to separate folder.
7.  Poor documention to try to fix above problems.

Currently I have OSX box, Windows XP box and SuSE 9.0 box and the Mac is
easiest to use and install software on, followed by XP.

I hope the linux community continues to develop linux for the desktop and
for home office users like me but I agree, we still have a long way to go.
0
sam560 (1)
2/12/2004 5:24:28 AM
I am also a newbie to Linux but what I have noticed during my experiences
with Linux so far no matter which distro you choose. That most of the time
the problems that people have with their system was caused by lack of true
knowledge about their computer hardware. The biggest fault of users is
choosing the wrong driver or setting during setup, therefor the end result
usually does not give you a satisfactory result. But if you dig into your
system before the installation and do your home work on all of your
components your installs and running of Linux will go much smoother. As for
winmodems that is probably the number 1 most complained about component for
Linux. So if anybody has even remotely began to get ready to upgrade to
Linux and they are using a dial up connection or going to fax from within
Linux, do yourself a favor and get a real modem. The extra 10 to 30 dollars
is worth it. Hell the price for the OS and a real modem is still cheaper
than buying just windows alone. So you might as well set up your computer
for the OS you plan on using on it. 
As an example of operator error for me, tonight I finally figured out why my
color was off just a little bit when I would print from any program to my
Lexmark Z52. It hadn't done this on my old hard drive that bit the dust.
Yes I never changed which printer to print too I was sending all of my
print jobs to the generic printer. So yes I was getting mad at Linux but it
was an error on my part. Now I am happy again so I can continue to use
Linux without any complaints :) and yes personally I would have kept using
Linux even if my print jobs looked the same as if a 2 year old holding a
crayon on top of my printer would look like, than having to go into windows
to do anything. 
As for setting up programs it is really no different than having to know
about, unzipping, since that is the most popular way of compresion for
windows, then having to download something off the internet for a windows
machine, having to remember were you saved the file you downloaded, then
having to unzip it, remember where you told it to unzip to, find that dir
were you unzipped it, run the setup program, and of course reboot your
computer, then go find the setup files again and delete them cause they are
no longer required or burn them to cd so you don't have to do the search
and launch again if you need to reinstall the same program at a later date. 
My biggest complaint about Linux also is the how-to files. There are many
out there most of them outdated. So if everybody would like to help the
community out and to start making head way, we can do the updated how-to's.
I see so much wealth of info just in the newsgroups alone that we the end
users can help keep the price of Linux down in the long run by doing this,
plus if you make a how-to you will help yourself learn more about Linux
than if you just say "there is no good documentation for anything on
Linux". I personally save my work on stuff that I had trouble on throughout
the many distro's I have tried in the past. This not only helps me remember
how to reinstall anything if I ever need to but if somebody asks in here
and I have had the same situation I can help solve their problems with it
too. 
The best thing about Linux is that nobody is trying to hide how to do
something. Even if somebody doesn't have the exact answer that somebody
needs, there is usually a way to look up the problem that is being asked
and direct them where to find the info, google and Yahoo work wonders :)
As for using a Mac I myself haven't used one since the Apple IIe in middle
school so I don't know if the new ones are any easier to use than Linux or
windows. Maybe if the price ever comes down so I can tinker with one I'll
try it. And that would only be a system with the OSX or better on it.
Well I held off as long as I could without feeding any of the trolls so this
is my $.03 on this. :) 
And don't forget the journey for Linux to the top will be quicker by getting
more supporters and more participation by all. Oh and BTW they are running
Linux in the Russian Space Station too :) Its just so amazing how all the
critical computers around the world never have the initials B.G. attached
to it :)



> I have to agree with the previous posting.  I am not an IT professional or
> programmer.  Just a home office user and my needs are a system with
> software to make my work (sales) easier.
> 
> My observations as a linux/SuSE 9.0 Pro newbie are that:
> 
> 1.  Font setup and screen display of fonts is terrible.
> 2.  Difficult to install the browser and email client I want to use.
> 3.  OpenOffice 1.1 is still slower than MS Office but seems to work as
> well.
> 4.  Difficult to set up or have OS recognize (win)modem in system for
> faxing.
> 5.  Unable to set up HP scanner and fax machine that are networked on HP
> JetDirect.
> 6.  Unable to set up Evolution 1.4 and spamassassin to work well to filter
> spam to separate folder.
> 7.  Poor documention to try to fix above problems.
> 
> Currently I have OSX box, Windows XP box and SuSE 9.0 box and the Mac is
> easiest to use and install software on, followed by XP.
> 
> I hope the linux community continues to develop linux for the desktop and
> for home office users like me but I agree, we still have a long way to go.

-- 
Synchrodude the Legend
You only have too much fuel if you are on fire.
0
me14 (298)
2/12/2004 6:16:20 AM
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.hardware.]

So anyway, it was like, 06:03 CET Feb 12 2004, you know? Oh, and, yeah,
�@�.� was all like, "Dude,
> Wood Co <none@none.com> says...

>>VMware which costs as much as XP license does.

Don't forget that you will also need a proper XP license to run it
under vmware.

> What we need is an open source replacement for VMWare.

<http://bochs.sourceforge.net/>

However, you'll always need a license for the "client" os when using
an emulator. As I understand it, this is not the case with wine at
all.

-- 
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.      Perth ---> *
 09:37:49 up 18 days, 17:14,  4 users,  load average: 3.95, 3.97, 4.08
$ cat /dev/bollocks "echo y | format c:" Registered Linux user #261729
seize web-enabled networks
0
spam7 (1369)
2/12/2004 8:48:17 AM
Synchrodude <me@here.com> says...

>My biggest complaint about Linux also is the how-to files. There are many
>out there most of them outdated. So if everybody would like to help the
>community out and to start making head way, we can do the updated how-to's.

Actually, you are the pervect person to write howtos.  Everything is
new to you, so you won't fall into the trap of missing the "everyone 
knows that" steps.  And you have writing skills. Give it a try!
Write up how to do something, and post it in a newsgroup.  Google will
help those who need it to find it.  As your writing skills improve,
move on to making actual howtos.  I think ypu have what it takes.   

0
2/12/2004 8:48:59 AM
�@�.� writes:

> Wood Co <none@none.com> says...
>
>>VMware which costs as much as XP license does.
>
> What we need is an open source replacement for VMWare.

Xen is something in that direction.
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/index.html

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@kth.se
0
mru6 (328)
2/12/2004 9:04:25 AM
-J-C- wrote:

> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4181071

> Now, if only they could get the word processor's basic "cut and paste"
> feature to work. 

Mine works fine, as you can tell...

> Even some of its biggest proponents admit that Linux has a long way to go
> before it can mount a credible alternative to Microsoft Windows, the
> world's dominant software operating system  

1) Who said we want to become the dominant OS?
2) Who said we want to compete with Windows?  We are an alternative to
Windows, and for those wanting open-source, programming experience, a very
customizable OS, a more secure OS, or a more stable OS, we are already
"winning".

But in terms of competing toe-to-toe with Windows, we have a way to go, but
not a long way by the looks of KDE 3.2....

>  MAKING MICROSOFT WORK ON LINUX

Uh, no, in my opinion that's NOT what we need.  Either use Linux or Windows. 
True, right now one can't use Adobe Illustrator on Linux, but that might
change.  True, most games don't run on Linux (but I need to stop wasting my
time playing them).  But I think that cross-platform stuff like that is a
waste of time.  Use Linux for its strengths, use Windows for what you can't
use Linux for.  Right now, as an average home user, I have no problem using
Linux for my stuff.  But then again I'm one voice out of, say, one million
Linux users?

> CodeWeavers has created an innovative program called CrossOver Office.
> Users can run standard Windows programs like Office, Internet Explorer,
> Lotus Notes and Photoshop on Linux PCs with no special effort and few if
> any detectable glitches.   

Why anyone would want to run IE on a Linux machine is beyond me, when
Netscape and Mozilla, standards-compliant browsers, run just fine.  IE has
way too many security holes right now to be worth the time.

But anyways, this article is old (21 JAN 2004) and the point has long been
discussed.  I say Linux try to be its own thing -- I'm already VERY happy
with Slackware-current, and Windows can't beat it (in my opinion).

-- 
If you just try long enough and hard enough, you can always manage to
boot yourself in the posterior.
                -- A. J. Liebling

0
neosad1st (530)
2/16/2004 4:48:13 PM
In article <h7rrf1-6gh.ln1@news.smilfinken.net>,
Johan Lindquist  <tinoh@smilfinken.net> wrote:

>Don't forget that you will also need a proper XP license to run it
>under vmware.

That doesn't bother me, but I consider it a crime that the XP under
VMWare requires a separate activation from XP running natively on the
SAME machine.  And I *really* don't appreciate that XP wants separate
activations for any changes to the VM. 

>> What we need is an open source replacement for VMWare.

That's fine, but it doesn't bother me one bit that VMWare is a retail
product.  I've purchased it twice, and don't regret it.



0
fishbowl1 (125)
2/17/2004 12:23:35 AM
In article <hkefe1-pv5.ln1@news.sebs.org.in>,
Balwinder Singh Dheeman  <bsd.no_smtp@anu.homelinux.net> wrote:

>Please read the release notes, playing MP3 songs and, or DVD's are not a 
>Linux and, or linux's desktop issues.

Everybody wants to get straight to using linux for entertainment.  They
get stuck on config issues, and that's really not surprising.

It's funny to me, because they only think of sound and video as "output
only" things.  Consumer mentality.  If they have this much trouble
setting up sound *output*, I don't even want to think about them dealing
with Jack or ALSA, trying to do multitrack recording, or video editing.

There is also this underlying assumption that Linux "should" be easy to
setup.  It does happen to be extremely easy to setup (until you get to 
multimedia applications I guess, or hit the wall of unsupported
hardware), but I don't agree that it "should" be easy, any more than 
I think a university physics course "should" be easy.

I don't even understand where this whole "should" attitude developed in
the first place.  Or any of the attitude that leads to the subject line
of this thread.  The value assumption is that Linux needs to become
anything that it is not already, or that it is not at the peak of its
career (or perhaps even PASSED that point!)  Those are assumptions that
people place on it, but why?  

Linux already *IS* the major OS among free unix-like systems for the x86
family of processors, and it may even be more than that.  Where are you
thinking it needs to "go", and why, and to whose benefit if it does, and
to whose detriment if it does not?  The only place where I start to
agree with that sentiment, is where Linux needs to not be actively
suppressed by hardware manufacturers.  

I don't think it's nearly as difficult or unfriendly as people like the
OP make it out to be.  It's somewhat less gratifying as a toy for the
passive user, and that's arguably a weakness.  What on earth drives such
a user to linux in the first place?  Do they just stick their feet in
the water, find out it's cold, and then make a point of complaining
about it?
0
fishbowl1 (125)
2/17/2004 12:38:51 AM
In article <yw1x8yje5zxr.fsf@kth.se>, M�ns Rullg�rd <mru@kth.se> wrote:

>Perhaps, but the view from the top of the cliff is magnificent.
>Windows has more of a learning pit, where unsuspecting users slide
>down and get stuck in the mud.

I'd be tempted to agree, but there is a surprising amount of depth to
the Windows system.  I love it when I see customizations that are
supposedly impossible, for instance.  I probably confuse "users" with
"developers" and I'm blessed to not be forced to work with idiots.


0
fishbowl1 (125)
2/17/2004 12:41:28 AM
In article <nyfVb.14837$ZN1.799336@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Ron Matthews  <whoknows@whocares.org> wrote:

>The only thing you know more about
>with the standard is shifting gears which you don't have in an
>automatic anyway. 

Baloney.  I shift my automatic all the time.  It helps a *LOT* to know
about torque and how a transmission works, when passing, going up (or
down) steep hills, etc. 


0
fishbowl1 (125)
2/17/2004 12:48:27 AM
In article <c066hc$efr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
Daneel Olivaw  <daneel@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

>If something goes wrong with the transmission in an autotransmission car 
>that one uses as a black box, then s/he has to pay $ Godawfulamount to a 
>mechanic, but if you know more abt the innards, maybe you can repair it 
>yourself. Same applies to compus running Linux. More control over hardware.

Extend the analogy to include all the tools in the machine shop as well
as the patterns for the hypoid gears, and a forge to make them, and
you're on the right track.  More than just control, but a whole enabling
umbrella.


0
fishbowl1 (125)
2/17/2004 12:53:53 AM
Here in comp.os.linux.x,
fishbowl@conservatory.com (james) spake unto us, saying:

>In article <yw1x8yje5zxr.fsf@kth.se>, M�ns Rullg�rd <mru@kth.se> wrote:
>
>>Perhaps, but the view from the top of the cliff is magnificent.
>>Windows has more of a learning pit, where unsuspecting users slide
>>down and get stuck in the mud.
>
>I'd be tempted to agree, but there is a surprising amount of depth to
>the Windows system.  I love it when I see customizations that are
>supposedly impossible, for instance.

Windows can be more flexible and more stable than some people give it
credit for.  The first time I saw a LiteStep screenshot I was somewhat
impressed that it could be made to look (and act) so differently, at
least on the surface.

I don't dislike Windows XP itself as a platform as much as I did the
Windows 9x line, and most of *that* dislike on my part is historical
(stemming from the OS/2 versus "Chicago" debates in the early 90's).

Linux has several advantages over both Windows and OS/2, though, in
that it's even more functionally flexible, and it's also "Free" in the
sense that one isn't completely dependent on a corporate entity's whim
of "What Is Good For All Wsers" anymore.  We can choose!  :-)

-- 
 -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
  OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
     Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
              See web site above for resume/CV and background.
0
rsteiner (797)
2/17/2004 7:27:34 AM
"james" <fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote in message
news:BCdYb.404$o52.192@fed1read02...
> In article <c066hc$efr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
> Daneel Olivaw  <daneel@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> >If something goes wrong with the transmission in an autotransmission car
> >that one uses as a black box, then s/he has to pay $ Godawfulamount to a
> >mechanic, but if you know more abt the innards, maybe you can repair it
> >yourself. Same applies to compus running Linux. More control over
hardware.
>
> Extend the analogy to include all the tools in the machine shop as well
> as the patterns for the hypoid gears, and a forge to make them, and
> you're on the right track.  More than just control, but a whole enabling
> umbrella.
>

I think everybody in this thread is missing some important points, 1) what
defines a "major OS", 2) why did the originator of the thread think that
Linux is not a "major OS'?



How do you define anything as being a "major" player? To my mind its market
share that defines whether a product is a "major". If this is true then
Linux is not a major OS. Some of you will disagree with me on this and
define "major" as the quality of the product, but think back to the
Betamax/VHS battle, Betamax was clearly better technically but lost the
market share and is no more. If Linux is to really become a major OS then it
has to increase its market share significantly.



Can Linux become a major, as currently offered I do not think that it is
ever likely to become a major OS. Bear in mind that to the average pc user,
the pc is an appliance not a computer, they do little or no "computing"
unless your definition of computing is WEB browsing and email. For these
people configuring Linux and all its various bits and pieces is far too
complicated. They want a "plug and go" experience and whether we like it or
not, M$ Windows offers that in spades. So far the closest I have seen in the
Linux world is Xandros, or maybe Knoppix.



If Linux is to become a major player, and by that I mean +33% of the market,
then it has to become much more user friendly. I personally believe that
somebody should produce a distro which offers nothing more than M$ windows,
a desktop OS with none of the plethora of choices that most distros
currently offer, the system should come pre-configured and to the largest
extent possible auto install. I don't see this happening, not until the
Linux community can set some real standards for how a system is to be
configured, things like where does the OS puts its files, where do apps put
theirs where are global setting stored where are per user setting put,
providing simple easy to use user interfaces, getting rid of the dependence
on the command line and consoles.



If we don't make Linux much, much more user friendly very soon then it will
be become the OS of the back room, and of geeks like myself, and ultimately
the Betamax of the pc world.


0
2/17/2004 2:28:05 PM
A.N.Other uttered the immortal words:

<snip>
> Can Linux become a major, as currently offered I do not think that it is
> ever likely to become a major OS. Bear in mind that to the average pc
> user, the pc is an appliance not a computer, they do little or no
> "computing" unless your definition of computing is WEB browsing and email.
> For these people configuring Linux and all its various bits and pieces is
> far too complicated. They want a "plug and go" experience and whether we
> like it or not, M$ Windows offers that in spades. So far the closest I
> have seen in the Linux world is Xandros, or maybe Knoppix.

I see this argument a lot but you're forgetting one thing: Joe Average gets
Windows pre-installed and Joe Average might be unable to install Windows.
If Linux came pre-installed Joe Average could just turn on and go just like
my girlfriend does with my Linux PCs, pre-installed and configured by me.

I can remember when my Dad installed Win2k. He's been using computers since
1985 and does some programming but admits he's not a techie. He must've
phoned me a dozen times to ask questions about partitions, drivers and
other stuff. He'd never installed Windows before and had problems.

Most PCs I see these days come with (semi-)automated recovery CDs to get the
machine back to factory conditions. For a Linux system a set of recovery
CDs would mean that Joe Average would never need to actually install Linux.

-- 
Andy.
0
andyfraser31 (351)
2/17/2004 3:27:41 PM
on Tue February 17 2004 10:27 am, Andy Fraser decided to enlighten us with:

> A.N.Other uttered the immortal words:
> 
> <snip>
>> Can Linux become a major, as currently offered I do not think that it is
>> ever likely to become a major OS. Bear in mind that to the average pc
>> user, the pc is an appliance not a computer, they do little or no
>> "computing" unless your definition of computing is WEB browsing and
>> email. For these people configuring Linux and all its various bits and
>> pieces is far too complicated. They want a "plug and go" experience and
>> whether we like it or not, M$ Windows offers that in spades. So far the
>> closest I have seen in the Linux world is Xandros, or maybe Knoppix.
> 
> I see this argument a lot but you're forgetting one thing: Joe Average
> gets Windows pre-installed and Joe Average might be unable to install
> Windows. If Linux came pre-installed Joe Average could just turn on and go
> just like my girlfriend does with my Linux PCs, pre-installed and
> configured by me.

You'd be surprised at how many people out there have never even heard of
Linux. Unless you follow the computing industry, it may be foreign to you.
Preinstallation and marketing have made Windows a household name. Linux is
fragmented between distros and not a houshold name at all. That may change
with SuSE's acquisition and bold steps made by Sun and IBM. I've tried to
get my friends to try it, but they won't. It's too foreign to them.



-- 
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
  5:07pm  up  21:52,  2 users,  load average: 0.85, 0.55, 0.40

My Windows XP machine uptime:
 Something less...

0
NoWay2 (985)
2/17/2004 10:09:56 PM
Ruel Smith (Big Daddy) uttered the immortal words:

> You'd be surprised at how many people out there have never even heard of
> Linux. Unless you follow the computing industry, it may be foreign to you.
> Preinstallation and marketing have made Windows a household name. Linux is
> fragmented between distros and not a houshold name at all. That may change
> with SuSE's acquisition and bold steps made by Sun and IBM. I've tried to
> get my friends to try it, but they won't. It's too foreign to them.

I must have some open minded friends then :-D If they're over at my house
and need to look something up on a website they do ok with Konqueror. Most
of them don't care which browser they're using as long as they can see the
web page. That is only web browsing though :-)

-- 
Andy.
0
andyfraser31 (351)
2/17/2004 11:14:16 PM
NeoSadist wrote:
[someone else wrote...]
>> MAKING MICROSOFT WORK ON LINUX
>  
> Uh, no, in my opinion that's NOT what we need.  Either use Linux or Windows. 
[...]

maybe.  but that is an option i want.  not because i have any love of
MacroSpam products, not because i'd really, really, miss the idiotic
eye candy, but because Linux and its open source came along very late.
i have a rather large investment in ms-compatible application software
right now, and don't relish the thought of tossing it all to start
over with Linux.  i want enough support, enough functionality to migrate
everything to Linux (or its next generation, come what may) and eventually
drop the last of windoze.  i won't buy XP without a fight.  i won't use
MS next-gen unless there isn't another choice.

fortunately, the -important- software vendors already offer Linux
support.  and there is "Wine", and at least one other (name escapes me
at the moment).  Linux as file server, compute server, storage server,
web server, server ad infinitum... seems fine to me.

i've seen enough of always-in-the-way microsoft.  i'm looking to the future.

0
NoSpam4Me (100)
2/22/2004 8:16:07 PM
jmw <nospam4me@all.thanks> says...

[snip]

You crossposted this to alt.os.linux.slackware and 
comp.os.linux.advocacy but it has nothing to do
with Slackware.

0
2/22/2004 9:10:43 PM
Martha H Adams wrote:
> 
[snip]
 
> Anyhow, if a nontechie business owner could change over to open-source
> software in 2000, what's out there today has to be a lot better.  And
> that's why I question that "Linux has a long way to go before it
> becomes the major OS."

That depends on how you define "becomes the major OS". Market share?
Forget it. The desktop market is subjet to control by a monopoly. So we
can't gauge the readiness of any alternatives by their market
penetration. Linux may have been ready to make significant inroads onto
the desktop in a technical sense for several years. Unfortunately, that
no longer leads to market share.

-- 
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
note to spammers:  a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the
means he uses to frighten you. -- Eric Hoffer
0
Paul261 (1126)
2/22/2004 10:57:23 PM
I installed Debian Linux a month ago. I thinks it's probably great if your
hobby or job is messing with computers. I care nothing about how my system
works I just want to do my work. I have spent thousands of dollars of my
time reading and trying to use Linux and still have to go back to Windows I
realize this is my fault but it sure makes the price of windows look really
cheap. By the way it installed easy after learning how to partition my hard
drive.
                                                            Doug
"Ben Measures" <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MB_Qb.620$e52.74@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Michael W. Cocke wrote:
> > On 24 Jan 2004 14:01:42 -0800, featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil)
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
> >>
> >>Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
> >>
> >>Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
> >>talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
> >>of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
> >
> >
> > That part right there indicates that you're a troll.  It takes far
> > longer than that just to install an application - any application. I
> > don't think you can even create the useless user login that doesn't
> > impact who can actually use the computer in that amount of time...
> >
> > (I exclude actually installing windows itself because many people
> > don't - they just take whatever the computer manufacturer gives them
> > and think that that's all there is.)
> >
> > So - now that you've shot your credibility, go away.
> >
> > Mike-
> >
> > Mornings:  Evolution in action.  Only the grumpy will survive.
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Please note - Due to the intense volume of spam, we have
> > installed site-wide spam filters at catherders.com.  If
> > email from you bounces, try non-HTML, non-encoded,
> > non-attachments.
> >
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
> > ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via
Encryption =---
>
> Hurrah for "Troll Goggles" (patent pending)
>
> --
> Ben M.
>
> ----------------
> What are Software Patents for?
> To protect the small enterprise from bigger companies.
>
> What do Software Patents do?
> In its current form, they protect only companies with
> big legal departments as they:
> a.) Patent everything no matter how general
> b.) Sue everybody. Even if the patent can be argued
> invalid, small companies can ill-afford the
> typical $500k cost of a law-suit (not to mention
> years of harassment).
>
> Don't let them take away your right to program
> whatever you like. Make a stand on Software Patents
> before its too late.
>
> Read about the ongoing battle at http://swpat.ffii.org/
> ----------------
>




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
0
Dougpol1 (1)
2/26/2004 4:10:11 PM
Ruel Smith (Big Daddy) wrote:

> 
> You'd be surprised at how many people out there have never even heard of
> Linux. Unless you follow the computing industry, it may be foreign to you.
> Preinstallation and marketing have made Windows a household name. Linux is
> fragmented between distros and not a houshold name at all. That may change
> with SuSE's acquisition and bold steps made by Sun and IBM. I've tried to
> get my friends to try it, but they won't. It's too foreign to them.
> 

I have convinced a half of my friends. if you ask them what software they
are *actually* using, then 9 out of 10 will also be perfectly happy with a
Linux OS.

The only gap linux has to fill are the Adobe and Macromedia types of
applications and music creation applications. That IS a real showstopper.
But most windows using people only *toy* with these kind of programs or use
only a very small subset of the functionality.

A final note: a lot of people use pirated software. Once they have to pay
for software, it'll be a quick switch to Free/OSS software for most.

0
wilpalen (1)
2/28/2004 2:13:26 PM
On Saturday 28 Feb 2004 2:13 pm, Wil Palen uttered these immortal words:

>> You'd be surprised at how many people out there have never even heard of
>> Linux. Unless you follow the computing industry, it may be foreign to
>> you. Preinstallation and marketing have made Windows a household name.
>> Linux is fragmented between distros and not a houshold name at all. That
>> may change with SuSE's acquisition and bold steps made by Sun and IBM.
>> I've tried to get my friends to try it, but they won't. It's too foreign
>> to them.
>> 
> 
> I have convinced a half of my friends. if you ask them what software they
> are *actually* using, then 9 out of 10 will also be perfectly happy with a
> Linux OS.

This is what I've found too.
 
> The only gap linux has to fill are the Adobe and Macromedia types of
> applications and music creation applications. That IS a real showstopper.
> But most windows using people only *toy* with these kind of programs or
> use only a very small subset of the functionality.

I think you're right there. I use the GIMP in place of Photoshop and it's
great. I hand code HTML too so Quanta is my axe here but I know a few
designers who use Dreamweaver and they're the only people I know who are
put off Linux.
 
> A final note: a lot of people use pirated software. Once they have to pay
> for software, it'll be a quick switch to Free/OSS software for most.

You may be right there.

-- 
Andy.
0
andyfraser31 (351)
2/28/2004 3:19:20 PM
Andy Fraser wrote:

> On Saturday 28 Feb 2004 2:13 pm, Wil Palen uttered these immortal words:
> 
>>> You'd be surprised at how many people out there have never even heard of
>>> Linux. Unless you follow the computing industry, it may be foreign to
>>> you. Preinstallation and marketing have made Windows a household name.
>>> Linux is fragmented between distros and not a houshold name at all. That
>>> may change with SuSE's acquisition and bold steps made by Sun and IBM.
>>> I've tried to get my friends to try it, but they won't. It's too foreign
>>> to them.
>>> 
>> 
>> I have convinced a half of my friends. if you ask them what software they
>> are *actually* using, then 9 out of 10 will also be perfectly happy with
>> a Linux OS.
> 
> This is what I've found too.
>  
>> The only gap linux has to fill are the Adobe and Macromedia types of
>> applications and music creation applications. That IS a real showstopper.
>> But most windows using people only *toy* with these kind of programs or
>> use only a very small subset of the functionality.
> 
> I think you're right there. I use the GIMP in place of Photoshop and it's
> great. I hand code HTML too so Quanta is my axe here but I know a few
> designers who use Dreamweaver and they're the only people I know who are
> put off Linux.
>  
>> A final note: a lot of people use pirated software. Once they have to pay
>> for software, it'll be a quick switch to Free/OSS software for most.
> 
> You may be right there.
> 
For Dreamweaver use the Crossover Office by codeweavers. I use it with
Dreamweaver MX and find it perfectly usable (not perfect yet, but close).
Strangely enough I find Dreamweaver more stable under linux than I did
under Windows, although the tab key does not always work to move from field
to field.


0
2/28/2004 4:39:20 PM
On Saturday 28 Feb 2004 4:39 pm, oldandgrey uttered these immortal words:

> For Dreamweaver use the Crossover Office by codeweavers. I use it with
> Dreamweaver MX and find it perfectly usable (not perfect yet, but close).
> Strangely enough I find Dreamweaver more stable under linux than I did
> under Windows, although the tab key does not always work to move from
> field to field.

I've been meaning to look closer at Crossover Office. We use VMware at work
which is good but I wouldn't like to do any real work in it.

-- 
Andy.
0
andyfraser31 (351)
2/28/2004 5:04:56 PM
Christopher L. Estep wrote:

> The two differences among applications with Win32 and
> Linux counterparts is application size vs. hand-holding.  Win32
> applications, by and large, install graphically, and as a consequence,
> take
> longer to install.  Linux applications mostly install CLI-fashion 

Total bullshit. You have the choice

> and 
> require you to have mapped out where you want the application and all
> subfolder to go ahead of time (the equivalent of planning a tactical
> assault). 

Did you *ever* even just *see* a linux, much less /install/ anything?

> In Linux, there is no such animal as the *typical install* 
> choice.  

You talk garbage

> On the other hand, it's the rare Windows application that 
> *doesn't* have a typical install choice.
> 
> I *build* my own systems.  

Bully for you

> (In fact, I've built every system I've ever  owned since 1990.)  
> That means I choose what goes in the box (hardware)and what 
> runs on the box (operating systems and applications, games, etc.)  I have
> experience with Windows, most Linux distributions, 

This I seriously doubt

> and also Solaris.  
> I run Windows and its applications the majority of the time because the
> applications let me work without losing me in alternative ways of doing
> things.  Also, there are far more application choices that *fit* that
> mindset for Windows than is the case with Linux.
> 
> Linux distributions (by and large) are *still* highly user-unfriendly
> (especially when it comes to applications and the installation thereof).
> 

So you still try to FUD as much as you can
-- 
Windows was created to keep stupid people away from UNIX."
��--�Tom�Christiansen

0
Peter.Koehlmann (13228)
5/26/2004 5:51:00 AM
Douglas Pollard wrote:

> I installed Debian Linux a month ago. I thinks it's probably great if your
> hobby or job is messing with computers. I care nothing about how my system
> works I just want to do my work. I have spent thousands of dollars of my
> time reading and trying to use Linux and still have to go back to Windows
> I realize this is my fault but it sure makes the price of windows look
> really cheap. By the way it installed easy after learning how to partition
> my hard drive.
>                                                             Doug
> "Ben Measures" <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MB_Qb.620$e52.74@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> Michael W. Cocke wrote:
>> > On 24 Jan 2004 14:01:42 -0800, featherstone80@hotmail.com (Narsil)
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
>> >>
>> >>Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.
>> >>
>> >>Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
>> >>talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
>> >>of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
>> >
>> >
>> > That part right there indicates that you're a troll.  It takes far
>> > longer than that just to install an application - any application. I
>> > don't think you can even create the useless user login that doesn't
>> > impact who can actually use the computer in that amount of time...
>> >
>> > (I exclude actually installing windows itself because many people
>> > don't - they just take whatever the computer manufacturer gives them
>> > and think that that's all there is.)
>> >
>> > So - now that you've shot your credibility, go away.
>> >
>> > Mike-

Mike: some Windows users actually *do* install applications.  While not the
majority (as compared to Linux), quite a few build their own systems and
are responsible for purchasing and installing ALL the software (not just
the applications, but the operating systems as well).  In the Land Of
Win32, most of the time used by application installation is used by
file-copy operations (no user intervention).  The biggest reason why it
takes longer to install a Win32 application (as opposed to a Linux
application) is the required *application bloat* to interface with the
Windows user interface.

True; Linux applications are a heck of a lot smaller than their Win32
counterparts.  However, their install routines are as different from those
of Win32 as night is from day.  In fact, the majority of Linux applications
not only install from the CLI (terminal) interface, but require
Administrative rights (root in Linux).  This does not differ from the Win32
install flow-chart.  The two differences among applications with Win32 and
Linux counterparts is application size vs. hand-holding.  Win32
applications, by and large, install graphically, and as a consequence, take
longer to install.  Linux applications mostly install CLI-fashion and
require you to have mapped out where you want the application and all
subfolder to go ahead of time (the equivalent of planning a tactical
assault).  In Linux, there is no such animal as the *typical install*
choice.  On the other hand, it's the rare Windows application that
*doesn't* have a typical install choice.

I *build* my own systems.  (In fact, I've built every system I've ever owned
since 1990.)  That means I choose what goes in the box (hardware)and what
runs on the box (operating systems and applications, games, etc.)  I have
experience with Windows, most Linux distributions, and also Solaris.  I run
Windows and its applications the majority of the time because the
applications let me work without losing me in alternative ways of doing
things.  Also, there are far more application choices that *fit* that
mindset for Windows than is the case with Linux.

Linux distributions (by and large) are *still* highly user-unfriendly
(especially when it comes to applications and the installation thereof).


Christopher L. Estep

0
pghammer21 (11)
5/26/2004 8:14:45 AM

"Those who give up freedom for security, deserve neither."
		-- Thomas Jefferson

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Narsil wrote:

> The author may not have any idea, but he is right.
>
> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.

> Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
> talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
> of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
> spent the last week or so, on and off trying to install mplayer, and I
> still can't do it, and I still don't know why.
>
> See this thread for more info....
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=40101f73.8755188%40news21.on.aibn.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DNarsil%2Bgroup:alt.os.linux.slackware%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.os.linux.slackware%26selm%3D40101f73.8755188%2540news21.on.aibn.com%26rnum%3D1
>
> I'm not saying that linux (any distro) is a bad thing, but until it
> can be used by your average windows user, without having to ask a guru
> how the hell you do stuff(like installing packages), Linux will never
> rival Windows on the desktop.
>
> I want to like linux, but at the moment it's rather hard.
>
> (A rather frutrated) TomN
>

I happen to love the fact that most Linux users are smarter than the
average bear. I personally don't care if Linux ever makes it to the
desktop. It is, and probably always will be, the choice OS for
programmers, sys admins and hobbyists. I've been using Slackware since it
was first released, and I've never looked back. It suits me perfectly well
as a desktop OS as well as holding it's own on all of the servers that I
run. Running Linux is what makes us gurus, it keeps the average joe
computer users seperated from the elite. :^)

-- dj
0
dj3284 (3)
6/19/2004 9:08:45 PM
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Fish wrote:

> John Thompson wrote:
> > On 2004-01-24, Narsil <featherstone80@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > Any relatively modern linux distribution will install *MUCH* more
> > quickly and easily than Windows.
> >
>
> That's a myth, I'm afraid. First, if the machine has any unusual
> hardware, Linux may well struggle to recognize it. Second, the fun only
> starts after the installation which is admittedly pretty quick. But once
> the stuff is installed, the new user is immediately thrown into the deep
> end when trying to configure his installation for the first time because
> Linux still lacks many of the easy system configuration tools Windows
> users take for granted. I mean, with SuSE take two examples: a new user
> first has to work out that Yast means Control Panels (or bits of them,
> anyway) and then that Sax2 means Display. He may then also find he can't
> play DVDs (SuSE) or MP3s (Red Hat), with perhaps no references to them
> in the manuals, and is presented with several different configurators
> for his sound card but no instructions on which one to use. While
> fiddling with all the above, the new users has constantly to log in and
> out on the gui as the root user because he doesn't yet know how to use
> the console. None of this is remotely intuitive unless you know already
> know what to do. The Linux learning curve remains extremely steep.

it's survival of the fittest ... sink or swim ... do or die
0
dj3284 (3)
6/19/2004 9:15:33 PM
Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Alan Connor wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:19:23 GMT, Russell Morse <whoknows@whocares.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ben Measures <saint_abroadremove@removehotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Heres the simple conclusion I came to:
> >
> >> If you're easily daunted when you operate computers, use Windows.
> >> You'll come across fewer problems with Windows but it will
> >> frustrate even your expert friends in their attempts to sort the
> >> 'nasty' problems.
> >
> > This is ok for hobbyists.  But for professionals time is money.
> > Professionals don't have time to google for answers to questions
> > which shouldn't have to be asked.
> >
> >> If you stick a big two fingers up at computer problems and aren't
> >> afraid to beat them into submission, use Linux. You might have to
> >> fight a continual struggle, but its downhill all the way.
> >
> > Nobody has time to fiddle with meaningless shit.  You don't learn
> > anything about the system when you learn how to install programs.  All
> > you are learning is how to install programs.  And since the point
> > of installing the program is not installing the program, learning
> > anymore than you have to about installing programs is a total waste
> > of time.
> >
> > cordially, as always,
> >
> > rm
>
> Whoa!
>
> I sure am glad that you aren't my Linux teacher or Sysadmin and I pray that
> you aren't working for my ISP.
>
> Except as a janitor....
>
> (If your post was meant as a joke, then I retract the above comments and
> apologize.)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On the topic in general: I don't want Linux to become the major OS.
>
> To do that, it would have to be just like Windows, and I don't see the
> point in that at all.
>
> Windows is for technocrats and appliance operators, Linux is for people
> that want a superior OS and are willing to learn how it works. Who WANT
> to have the freedom and control that these bring.
>
> AC
>
>
>

Amen, brother ... Amen

--dj
0
dj3284 (3)
6/19/2004 9:24:34 PM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In alt.os.linux.slackware, Destry Jaimes dared to utter,
> it's survival of the fittest ... sink or swim ... do or die

Was it really neccessary to quote 24 lines of text just to add a single
line of comment? In the future, please trim your posts.

- -- 
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFA1MJMlKR45I6cfKARAmUFAJ9XmN+2jvpdzSa78Rbusjo725b3mACfQ+c8
WkMJ7Cfk/HQwVRSSOKU3usA=
=2f3I
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
0
alan61 (23)
6/19/2004 10:46:40 PM
Destry Jaimes <dj@dj-etlug.org> writes:

> > I'm not saying that linux (any distro) is a bad thing, but until
> > it can be used by your average windows user, without having to ask
> > a guru how the hell you do stuff(like installing packages), Linux
> > will never rival Windows on the desktop.
> >
> > I want to like linux, but at the moment it's rather hard.

Not sure I understand the comparison. My wife runs Window 98 and is
more or less computer illiterate. But she knows that to write a
document, she must double click the Word icon; to cruise Internet she
clicks the IE icon; and to write a message, she starts Eudora. She,
and most other Windows users, never have to worry about installation
and configuration.

Were I to give her a Linux box on which I installed Mozila, Abiword,
and qmail, her experience would be much the same as under
Windows. Click an icon and see app interfaces that are more or less
standard and cross platform.

Arguably, installing Linux now can be as easy if not easier than
Windows, and serious configuration is in some ways easier, but in
either case we are presuming a person who is reasonably informed, has
access to necessary documentation, and is ambitious to undertake the
task. That is not the average computer user.

If Debian, say, switched places with Microsoft, so that 95% of all
machines were sold with debian installed and configured, and it came
equipped with the usual standard applications, would the end user, who
simply runs applications, find it any harder than Windows? I don't
think so. That Microsoft dominates the marketplace is not because of
any current limitations of Linux, but because of history.

-- 
      Haines Brown
        
0
brownh3 (257)
6/20/2004 12:47:00 AM
Destry Jaimes wrote:

>> I want to like linux, but at the moment it's rather hard.
>>
>> (A rather frutrated) TomN

No, it isn't hard. You just forgot that you didn't know squat about Windows
when you first used it. You must learn - one baby step at a time. You'll
get it. I did and I've never looked back. I'm trying to get my friends to
try and convert, or at least try it.
 
> I happen to love the fact that most Linux users are smarter than the
> average bear. I personally don't care if Linux ever makes it to the
> desktop. It is, and probably always will be, the choice OS for
> programmers, sys admins and hobbyists. I've been using Slackware since it
> was first released, and I've never looked back. It suits me perfectly well
> as a desktop OS as well as holding it's own on all of the servers that I
> run. Running Linux is what makes us gurus, it keeps the average joe
> computer users seperated from the elite. :^)

Personally, I want Linux to be big enough to get 3rd parties to write
drivers for their own hardware for Linux. And I want good, full-featured
stuff, but not the loads of poorly written, background running crap they
dump on Windows users. Just control over everything without the annoyance
of all that so-called convenience software that comes with it. Creative has
to be the absolute worst at that...

However, I don't want it to become so big that every wannabe
worm/virus/adware/spyware/trojan/malware writer out there has it in his/her
sights. I'm paranoid about online security, and I'm running software and
hardware firewalls, and I deny all but the most trusted cookies from my
machine and I don't want any breach of my security. Linux is well written
from a security standard, but I don't want to have to be tested on my
machine. MS can keep being number one and get attacked for all I care.


-- 

The manual said to install Windows 2000 or better...
So I installed SuSE Linux 9.1!

0
NoWay2 (985)
6/20/2004 1:17:07 AM
On 2004-06-19, Destry Jaimes <dj@dj-etlug.org> wrote:

>> Until linux is as simple to use as windows, it will never take off.

I prefer it like this. There's enough clueless users as it is.

>> Now, before anyone tries to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm
>> talking about either, here's a case in point.  In windows, the process
>> of installing takes (on my part) a minute or two at the most.  I've
>> spent the last week or so, on and off trying to install mplayer, and I
>> still can't do it, and I still don't know why.

And removing the viruses off a Windows machine takes hours/days ;)

>> I want to like linux, but at the moment it's rather hard.

That's the 'Linux Hurdle'. Only those that can get over it get rewarded with
it's powers ;)

> run. Running Linux is what makes us gurus, it keeps the average joe
> computer users seperated from the elite. :^)

It suuuuurrre does!
-- 
--- SIGSEGV (Segmentation fault) @ 0 (0) ---
+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++
0
jayjwa
6/22/2004 6:53:19 AM
Reply:

Similar Artilces:

Re: Linux has a long way to go before it becomes the major OS
_________________ /| /| | | ||__|| | Please do not | / O O\__ | feed the Troll | / \ |_________________| / \ \ || / _ \ \ || / |\____\ \ || / | | | |\____/ || / \|_|_|/ | _|| / / \ |______| || / | | | --| | | | |______ --| * _ | |_|_|_| | \--/ *-- _--\ _ \ | || / _ \\ | / || * / \_ /- | | | * ___ o_o_o_O/ \O_o_o_o____________ �@�.� wrote: > > _________________ > /| /| | | > ||__|| | Please do not | > / O O\__ | feed the Troll | > / \ |_________________| > / \ \ || > / _ \ \ || > / |\____\ \ || > / | | | |\____/ || > / \|_|_|/ | _|| > / / \ |______| || > / | | | --| > | | | |______ ...

IN your opinion what is the best way to share files between LInux and IN your opinion what is the best way to share files between LInux and MAC OS X?
IN your opinion what is the best way to share files between LInux and MAC OS X? I set up SAMBA on the LInux machine and the MAC (running the very latest OSX) can copy files to the SAMBA share at lightning speeds. When I try and copy files from the LInux machine to the Mac they take an eternity. So slow in fact I have to kill the process . I would appreciate any thoughts on why that maybe and also if there is a better way to share files (I guess HTTP-FTP would be the most sensible option ). navti wrote: > IN your opinion what is the best way to share files between LInux and > MAC O...

[News] Making Linux More Like OS X and OS X More Like Linux
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mac OS X - Highly Customized Linux ,----[ Quote ] | Few players in the Linux arena creates their Linux distro to look like Mac OS | X or Windows.... | | Here I'm going to list some distro which looks like Mac OS. `---- http://linuxtreat.blogspot.com/2008/07/mac-os-x-highly-customized-linux.html A Linux User's Guide to Mac ,----[ Quote ] | Take a deep breath and repeat after me: A computer is just a tool. It is only | so good as it serves to make life better for users. A "better" life is | obviously not the same thing for everyone. For me, it means making my Mac | more like Linux, as I began to discuss in my last article. `---- http://www.ofb.biz/safari/article/474.html Yesterday: Ubuntu: Challenge the Mac ,----[ Quote ] | Normally I would just provide a Diigo link to this if it weren’t something | I’ve been saying a lot in talks. Over at InformationWeek, Serdar Yegulaip was | a piece called “Shuttleworth’s Ubuntu Ambitions: Challenge the Mac”. He | quotes Mark Shuttleworth saying in a Datamation article: | |     … our goal, very simply, is to make sure the Free software ecosystem can |     deliver a Mac OS-like experience, or an experience that will compete with |     the Mac OS. | | I think this is exactly right. It’s time to look past Windows, even with its | huge installed base, as any sort of “gold standard” (as Mark calls it), | especially for user interface. ...

[News] New Set-top Box Runs Linux, "Linux will Be the Major OS [in This Area]"
Device Profile: SysMaster M10 set-top box ,----[ Quote ] | SysMaster used embedded Linux to build a set-top box with a dizzying array | of audio, video, networking, communications, and data capabilities. The | Tornado M10 Digital Media Center runs Linux 2.6.19, and targets phone and | IP network operators wishing to offer a wide range of services. | | [....] | | Yosifov predicts a bright future for Linux in the embedded device market. | "We believe Linux will be the major OS used in embedded system development | because of its small footprint, reliability, power, and available sof...

Linux should disown elementary OS Linux for the Scam that it is.
No Problem'o, DooFuS. I can blame it all on the Linux Mint TEXT size being = too small on my 19 inch monitor. As Moi was saying... I tried two more additional downloads of elementary OS Linux. Both of them= likewise failed. While they could have been discriminating against Moi for his ZERO contribu= tion, I will be damned if I am going to PAY GOOD money for something when t= here is no guarantee that the stupid DOWNLOAD wont fail, JUST TO FIND OUT t= hat it WONT work at all on my computer hardware, let alone whether OR NOT i= t will actually do what is being claimed. Moi has NEVER experienced a download problem with Linux Mint. From what I have seen, elementary OS Linux is a scam, much like those Windo= ws come ons that claim that they can fix your computer problems merely by m= ucking with the Windows Registry. The Linux World should disown elementary OS Linux for being the Scam that i= t is. Or, can any phony distro claim to be Linux? Yeah, where are the Linu= x police? On 7/8/2015 8:22 AM, John Gohde wrote: > No Problem'o, DooFuS. I can blame it all on the Linux Mint TEXT size > being too small on my 19 inch monitor. I blame it on your small cerebrum. > The Linux World should disown elementary OS Linux for being the Scam > that it is. Or, can any phony distro claim to be Linux? Yeah, where > are the Linux police? The Linux police are outside your door right now. I'm not kidding. Look out...

ROX Linux and ROX on OS X and arm linux
Hi I've just just done some searches on Google for ROX linux, and ROX on other platforms. I've not managed to find anything. Is ROX available for OS X? Is ROX available for Acorn\Iyonix Arm linux? Did ROX Linux ever come to anything? I was a member of the mailing list a while ago, it started off interesting and then seemed to go off on a tangent then it all went quiet. It seemed like an excellent idea, a linux distro structured like RISC OS. It would have been an ideal compliment to a RISC OS system, same UI but different set of applications (probably not quite so consistent as we are used to though). It could also have been a life boat if RISC OS were ever to grind to a halt. Presumably some sorts of common apps (python perhaps) would have been possible and if RISCOSE or similar were to be developed too, the possibilities would be even greater. Do others consider it would have been desirable? -- Jess Iyonix contact http://jess.itworkshop-nexus.net Hotmail is my spam trap - don't email valid - mailto:nospam@jess.itworkshop-nexus.net In message <729a59544e.jess@itworkshop.invalid> Jess <phantasm_39@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hi > > I've just just done some searches on Google for ROX linux, and ROX on > other platforms. > These starting points might help. http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&q=ROX filer desktop http://rox.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/ http://rox.sourceforg...

[News] [Linux] Linux Has Advantage in the Mobile OS World
How Linux morphed from a server to a mobile OS ,----[ Quote ] | When evaluating Linux as a possible OS candidate, it is important to | remember that the Linux "model" for mobile devices is horizontal. That | is, Linux is not presented as a vertically integrated top to bottom | solution for a mobile device supplied by one vendor. | | It's a sharp contrast to the other OS suppliers such as Microsoft | with Windows Mobile, Symbian and PalmSource. These suppliers | support a highly integrated software stack, incorporating not | only an OS but also extensive middleware and application layer | pieces. Arguably the price for such integration is lack of | flexibility and loss of control. `---- http://www.wirelessnetdesignline.com/howto/broadband/199600344;jsessionid=N1IAB5VKZRD0QQSNDLRCKH0CJUNN2JVN http://tinyurl.com/2c3z7z Microsoft taps mobiles for developing world ,----[ Quote ] | Microsoft is facing fierce competition from Linux, however, most | notably the One Laptop per Child project to ship low cost | notebooks to schools in developing nations. | | Linux vendor Red Hat unveiled a Global Desktop last week | targeting computers at small and medium sized businesses as | well as governments in third world nations. `---- http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2189936/microsoft-taps-mobile-tech Related: 70 percent of smartphones use Symbian ,----[ Quote ] | At 3GSM it became clear that 70 percent of all smartphones use Symbian. | | Linux accounts for 16.9 perc...

My Linux is not your Linux
To the denizens of comp.os.linux.advocacy! So many people demonstrate in this newsgroup that they know only a Linux of Hatred and Greed, of paranoia, and of a selfish sense of entitlement. They seem always to be behaving like monkeys in reaction to human dissenters, throwing feces at one another and beating their chests pretending to know something. My Linux is not that Linux. My Linux is the Linux of Love, of sharing, friendship, community. It is a uniquely human Linux and not one for monkeys. When I speak with fellow Linux users in real life (i.e. not in the monkeyhouse of COLA) they remind me of myself: practical, freedom-loving, anti-corporate. Here in COLA however they remind me of monkeys or spoiled brats or worse, corporate sysadmins. My Linux is not your Linux. It is the human Linux that acknowledges that Linux involves human work to create, that although it is free you are not entitled to it, that although it is created in large part by volunteers, they deserve to be paid for their gifts with at least gratitude. And that monkeys and self-entitled brats and sysadmins never thank anyone. yarmfelder@yahoo.com writes: > To the denizens of comp.os.linux.advocacy! You crossposted to gnu.misc.discuss. > My Linux is not your Linux. It is the human Linux > that acknowledges that Linux involves human work > to create, that although it is free you are not > entitled to it, that although it is created in large part > by volunteers, they deserve to be pa...

Why linux is linux
We don't destroy, we create. We don't imitate, we build. We are not a network, we are a personal OS. -- http://www.texeme.com Hi John, Attempting to Speak for Linux, You wrote: << We don't destroy, we create. We don't imitate, we build. We are not a network, we are a personal OS. >> Linux is more like this: << Like everything else, we consume and are consumed. We exchange ideas with everyone, to the point where it's almost impossible to track. We are artisans, not mass producers. >> Jeff Relf wrote: > Linux is mo...

[News] [Linux] Linux More Secure Than Mac OS X, Windows
How secure are Linux, Window and Mac OS? ,----[ Quote ] | Overall it looks like the Linux kernel turns out to be the most | secure system. Not only does it have virtually no security holes | that lead to system access, it's also very resilient to remote | attacks, two areas where both Windows and Mac OS X aren't doing | very well. `---- http://www.masuran.org/node/29 Lots of nice charts on the page. Good summary. Related: Linux hacks rare as hens' teeth, says survey ,----[ Quote ] | Adding more fuel to the Linux versus Windows fire, a US research firm | this week released a ...

[News] [Linux] More Speculations About a Google OS Based on GNU/Linux
Google admits that it is going after Microsoft Office... Is Windows next? ,----[ Quote ] | So that brings us to the obvious question: What about the operating | system? There have been rumors for years about a Google PC and/or | Google OS that was based on Linux and aimed at providing a simple, | intuitive desktop for the masses. Naturally, that Google PC would | primarily be an Internet terminal that features Google's online | applications. `---- http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=465 Still getting slapped for spyware (Dell) and news aggregators... Google stands firm behind News search site ,----[ Quote ] | All along, Google has defended News saying that it is protected by | the fair use principle -- because it only reproduces headlines, text | snippets and thumbnail images -- and that it provides great benefit | to media Web sites by sending them readers. `---- http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;535941450;fp;;fpid;;pf;1 ...

linux os
Hi all, is anyone actually running Radius server? Is it difficult to set it up? T ...

I have Linux! I have Linux!
Ok, after two days of trying to get Windos 1900 installed and working , I sat down an hour ago and installed Linux. In an hour. Smirk. Ok, I will be honest. I did have some problems, but I believe they were of my own ignorance. 0) I started with trying to install Suse. However, I couldn't get it to install. Why? Because I didn't read the menu. There is a startup menu and the first entry is boot to harddisk. I thought that was the thing to do so I did it about 4 times. Then I gave up. However, I went back to it and subsequently realized that I should have chosen the 2nd men...

Which Linux OS
We would like to do some initial investigation of Oracle on Linux? Is there is a Free / low cost version of Linux that I can use for my eval, or must I purchase the Redhat Enterprise AS? Thanx, Gerald S. wrote: > We would like to do some initial investigation of Oracle on Linux? > > Is there is a Free / low cost version of Linux that I can use for my eval, > or must I purchase the Redhat Enterprise AS? > > Thanx, > > I've found Debian works well for testing, esp. considering that it's for testing, and not production (no support). Bricklen wrote: > Gerald S. wrote: > >> We would like to do some initial investigation of Oracle on Linux? >> >> Is there is a Free / low cost version of Linux that I can use for my >> eval, >> or must I purchase the Redhat Enterprise AS? >> >> Thanx, >> >> > I've found Debian works well for testing, esp. considering that it's for > testing, and not production (no support). Bricklen, if you've got any tips for installing onto Debian, I'd love to hear them. (Actually, I'd quite like a CD set of Debian, too, while you're at it!!). Best Regards HJR On Tue, 11 May 2004 16:23:44 +0000, Gerald S. banged his/her head on the keyboard and created this message for all mankind/womankind: > We would like to do some initial investigation of Oracle on Linux? > > Is there is a Free / low cost version of Linux that...

Go With Linux, Forget OS/2
IBM has closed the door on the world of OS/2. Linux is the best way to go. I was in Macs for awhile but now I've switched back to Linux. Get Linux, you won't be sorry! The eCS Guy The eCS Guy wrote: > IBM has closed the door on the world of OS/2. Linux is the best > way to go. I was in Macs for awhile but now I've switched back > to Linux. > > Get Linux, you won't be sorry! > > The eCS Guy Take it to the eCS newsgroups Erik. You are out of line here. -- Dr. Timothy Martin, The Official and Only OS/2 Guy Warp City Web Site - http://www.warpcity....

Palm OS (Renamed "Garnet OS") and a Linux Future
IT Sstandrads Hijack Threatens European Economix Competitiveness ,----[ Quote ] | To stop Europe being rail-roaded into an inadequate standard, the | ODF Alliance urges national supporters who have issues to raise | contradictions of ECMA's standard with existing standards to | encourage their national ISO representatives to raise formal | contradictions as quickly as possible, certainly | before 5th February 2007. `---- http://sourcewire.com/releases/rel_dis ...

[News] [Linux] Man Chooses Linux Over Mac OS X, Windows
Which OS for Ruby on Rails development? ,----[ Quote ] | I've had experience using Linux servers (no GUIs), so I figured I | could always drop back to the command line if something broke and | I've had to once or twice during installations. But overall I have | been pleasantly surprised at how civil an experience it has been. `---- http://falkayn.blogspot.com/2007/05/which-os-for-ruby-on-rails-development.html ...

[News] A Look at Element OS and Introduction to Peppermint OS (GNU/Linux)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Element OS - An Ubuntu Based Distro For HTPCs ,----[ Quote ] | Element OS is a 32 bit Xubuntu based | distro for HTPCs(Home Theatre PCs). It | maintains compatibility with Ubuntu | repositories. It uses the Advanced | Packaging Tool(APT) with Element's own | custom repositories and the Ubuntu | repositories. Element OS also incorporates | the AllMyApps software center to allow | additional applications to be downloaded. `---- http://www.techdrivein.com/2010/06/element-os-ubuntu-based-distro-for.html An introduction to Peppermint OS ,----[ Quote ] | Stepping away from Peppermint for a | minute, I'd like to say a few words about | cloud-based applications in general. I | don't think running programs over the | Internet is really a good fit for desktop | Linux. I'm a big fan of running thin | clients on a LAN and I've often used web- | based data solutions (such as web mail or | document sharing services). But I can | think of very few cases where web-based | applications, running on servers outside | the local area network, would be useful to | Linux users. The two main benefits to | running cloud-based apps are having one | central location for updates and having | the benefit of being able to access those | applications from anywhere that has an | Internet connection. Linux distributions | already offer these features by way of | software repositories, giving the end user | the a...

[News] Hadrons Running on GNU/Linux, "Linux is our OS of choice"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Large Hadron Collider team flicks switch on Xeon grid ,----[ Quote ] | "We found an old Irwindale from 2005 sitting in | a corner and we checked against that too," adds | the OpenLab CTO. "Moving up from then to now, | running Linux - Linux is our OS of choice - we | saw 4x performance increase from the cores, and | as much as 6x with the use of symmetric multi- | threading." `---- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/04/lhc_xeon_endorsement/ Those LHC folks... working in 'mom's basement' on particle physics. See? No real work is done on Linux. *rolls eyes* They use KDE. Recent: World's biggest computing grid launched ,----[ Quote ] | The world’s largest computing grid is ready to tackle mankind’s biggest data | challenge from the earth’s most powerful accelerator. Today, three weeks | after the first particle beams were injected into the Large Hadron Collider | (LHC), the Worldwide LHC Computing Grid combines the power of more than 140 | computer centers from 33 countries to analyze and manage more than 15 million | gigabytes of LHC data every year. `---- http://www.physorg.com/news142258066.html The LHC is using KDE ,----[ Quote ] | I found some more interesting images: | | http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-35141-3.html | http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-35141-5.html | http://img388.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ohptoftimemeasured13sepjy2.png (from | sl...

[News] Linux 2.6.32 in Review, "Linux is Not an OS"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kernel Log: Coming in 2.6.32 (Part 5) - Architecture code, memory management, virtualisation and tracing ,----[ Quote ] | The forthcoming kernel version will support | Intel's Moorestown platform, SFI - the | alternative to ACPI, and the Trusted | Execution Technology, which used to be | called "LaGrande Technology". If required, | the new KSM can now reduce memory loads by | combining identical memory content in | virtual machines. The new kernel also | includes Timechart, a new tool for | visualising what's going on in the system | and kernel. `---- http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Kernel-Log-Coming-in-2-6-32-Part-5-Architecture-code-memory-management-virtualisation-and-tracing-870357.html Again, Linux is not an OS ,----[ Quote ] | This brings me back to something I wrote | earlier this year: Linux is not an OS. | Besides the typical point that Linux is just | the kernel my basic point was that what we | typically call "Linux" is not really a | single coherent operating system, but rather | a framework for developing them or an | ecosystem which spawns them. I instead opt | to call specific distributions as operating | systems rather than all of Linux, whatever | that may include. `---- http://www.nuxified.org/blog/again-linux-not-os Recent: Getting to the Heart of the Linux Kernel ,----[ Quote ] | Against that background, you almost begin to | feel sorry for Micros...

[News] New Releases of GNU/Linux: Salix OS, KahelOS, Berry Linux
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Salix OS 13.0.2 Gets 64-bit Edition ,----[ Quote ] | George Vlahavas from the Salix OS development | team proudly announced two days before | Christmas that Salix 13.0.2 was available for | download on mirrors worldwide. The good news | for all the fans of this Slackware-based | Linux distribution is that it now has a 64- | bit edition, which is backwards compatible | with the Slackware64 operating system. | Salix64 offers an easier way to install the | XFCE desktop environment, and a software | repository with lots of packages. The Salix | developers also prepared a software | repository with dependency information for | both 32-bit and 64-bit Slackware packages. `---- http://news.softpedia.com/news/Salix-OS-13-0-2-Gets-64-bit-Edition-130609.shtml KahelOS Linux (Desktop Edition) Installer version: 12-25-2009 ,----[ Quote ] | We are glad to impart the new KahelOS Linux | Installer developed to make it much more | simple, easier and refreshing to use. `---- http://www.kahelos.org/newsdetails.php?newsid=39 Berry Linux 1.00 http://berry.sourceforge.jp/ Recent: Fragmentation good for the user, says Nokia ,----[ Quote ] | Fragmentation within mobile platforms helps handset manufacturers | and software developers to properly address customers' needs, a | senior Nokia executive has said. `---- http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10013788o-2000331761b,00.htm Distribution Variation ,----[ Quote...

[News] [Linux] Linux Gets Prettier, Mac OS X Plays Catch-up
H-K Suite [EN] ,----[ Quote ] | Suite H-K is an union of skins, themes, icons, scripts and | configuration files which got the purpose to create an elegant, | linear Desktop. Differently from meny other dark themes, I tried | to avoid reading problems in most commons programs. Here are some | screenshot from version 0.1. `---- http://embracesblog.mine.nu/?page_id=5 Apple's latest catchup: [Apple's 'Beryl/XGL'] ,----[ Quote ] | With Mac OS X, you can multitask like never before. You can run | several applications at once and have multiple windows open at the | same time very easily. But when it comes to trying to find | something specific, sorting through all of those open applications | and windows can become time consuming and frustrating at best. `---- http://www.yousoftware.com/desktops/desktops.php ...

[News] Linux Workshop Planned in Cambridge, VxWorks OS Lags Behind Linux
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Cambridge embedded systems event offers embedded Linux workshop ,----[ Quote ] | Embedded Linux TrainingFor the third year | running, the UK Embedded Masterclass will be | running a half-day workshop that offers an | "Introduction to Embedded Linux". `---- http://www.cambridgenetwork.co.uk/news/article/default.aspx?objid=66121 Intel Updates Wind River VxWorks OS ,----[ Quote ] | "VxWorks and Wind River Linux are | complementary offers, allowing Wind River to | serve customers who need Linux or VxWorks," | Brown said. "These can be used separately, and | there certainly are vertical sub-markets | better suited by one or the other. In | addition, we can offer them together as a | single solution." `---- http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/3856946/Intel+Updates+Wind+River+VxWorks+OS.htm Related: Cambridge company says Microsoft lease is unfair ,----[ Quote ] | InterSystems Corp. CEO Phillip Ragon has called One Memorial Drive home for | the past 20 years. | | But the longtime Cambridge resident and MIT graduate said the building’s | landlord, the Blackstone Group, has a plan in the works to potentially brand | the 17-story office tower as “the Microsoft building” by endorsing large | Microsoft signs to be placed on three exterior sides and leasing out the top | three floors to the out-of-town competitor. | | “A big Microsoft sign across the top might imply that Cambridge i...

[News] Palm OS (Renamed "Garnet OS") and a Linux Future
Palm OS Clings To Life ,----[ Quote ] | Access, a mobile software company in Japan that acquired PalmSource, | the maker of the Palm OS, plans to introduce in the first half of | this year its Access Linux Platform, which will include an emulation | layer for running Palm OS-based applications. The company this week | announced it's renaming all products that originally had Palm-based | names. The first product to be renamed is Palm OS, which will be | known as Garnet OS. `---- http://www.crn.com/sections/infrastructure/infrastructure.jhtml?articleId=197000527 -- List of candidate M...

Web resources about - Linux has a long way to go before it becomes the major OS - comp.os.linux.hardware

Full Episode: WN 03/25/16: Terror Attack Hits U.S. at Home
Tax thieves run phone scam to steal millions; Rolling Stones play Cuba.

Cruz rips affairs story as ‘tabloid smear’ by Trump camp
A furious Ted Cruz on Friday accused “Donald Trump and his henchmen” of feeding the National Enquirer a story charging that the Texas senator ...

'Batman v Superman': What actually happened in Batman's dream, and what it means for 'Justice League' ...
Caution: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice spoilers ahead. There's a moment in Batman v Superman when — with no warning — we see the Caped ...

Google warn Gmail users of ‘government backed attacks’ after supporting Apple's privacy case
Google will now provide full-page warning with instructions about how these users can stay safe. The company said it will also be increasing ...

Apple Music just got a new feature on Android that’s not coming to iOS any time soon
Not long ago, Apple brought its Apple Music app to Android. Having to compete with established powerhouses like Spotify and Pandora, Apple knew ...

Florida Gov. Rick Scott Passes Medical Marijuana Expansion Bill
On Friday, Florida Gov. Rick Scott signed a bill expanding his state’s Right to Try Act which will include letting terminally ill patients use ...

Little bird steals the show at Sanders rally in hip Portland
PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — A little bird stole the show at Bernie Sanders' rally in Portland, and gave new meaning to a phrase made popular by the ...

Don’t miss Conan’s touching tribute to the late Garry Shandling
The comedy world lost a major figure this week when Garry Shandling, the comedic brain behind the groundbreaking series It's Garry Shandling's ...

Tay, the neo-Nazi millennial chatbot, gets autopsied
A user told Tay to tweet Trump propaganda; she did (though the tweet has now been deleted). Microsoft has apologized for the conduct of its ...

Watch it live, 5:30am ET: Cygnus Supply Craft Rendezvous With Space Station
“A new shipment of science, spacewalk gear and crew supplies is on its way to the International Space Station,” NASA says. Astronauts on the ...

Resources last updated: 3/26/2016 4:59:15 AM