f



Floppies read by Windows but not by Linux

Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with
my vintage Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but
not by Linux? All I know at this point is that formatting
is not at issue.

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org
0
mailbox (57)
1/11/2011 12:54:42 PM
comp.os.linux.misc 33599 articles. 1 followers. amosa69 (78) is leader. Post Follow

12 Replies
268 Views

Similar Articles

[PageSpeed] 36

Charles Packer wrote:
> Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with
> my vintage Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but
> not by Linux? All I know at this point is that formatting
> is not at issue.
> 

Might be a physical drive issue, or simply that Linux hasn't got the 
right FAT drivers installed.


> --
> Charles Packer
> http://cpacker.org/whatnews
> mailboxATcpacker.org
0
tnp (2409)
1/11/2011 1:43:33 PM
On 2011-01-11, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
> Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with
> my vintage Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but
> not by Linux? All I know at this point is that formatting
> is not at issue.

Maybe they're formatted in FAT16, rather than FAT32 ?

I seem to recall reading a case in which that FAT16 was supported, but
wasn't one of the format that the automated mounting would use.

Try to mount it manually, using FAT16 as type.
Also, check the type in Windows, asking for the properties of the floppy.


-- 
When in doubt, use brute force.
                -- Ken Thompson
0
skunkworks (94)
1/11/2011 9:08:17 PM
At Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:08:17 +0100 Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> wrote:

> 
> On 2011-01-11, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
> > Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with
> > my vintage Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but
> > not by Linux? All I know at this point is that formatting
> > is not at issue.
> 
> Maybe they're formatted in FAT16, rather than FAT32 ?

True floppies (eg 1.44Mbyte) are normally formatted FAT12.  FAT16 was
for larger media, like Zip disks (100, 150, 250 mbytes).

> 
> I seem to recall reading a case in which that FAT16 was supported, but
> wasn't one of the format that the automated mounting would use.

Linux does not work like that: there is fat, vfat, and msdos at the FS
level.  Where it is 12 bit, 16 bit or 32 bit pointers happens at a lower
level (when what passes a super-block is read at mount time).

> 
> Try to mount it manually, using FAT16 as type.

Under mount options for fat, vfat, and msdos:

       fat=12 / fat=16 / fat=32
              Specify a 12, 16 or 32 bit fat.  This  overrides  the automatic
              FAT type detection routine.  Use with caution!

> Also, check the type in Windows, asking for the properties of the floppy.
> 

If it is (for some odd reason) NTFS, that would be different and yes,
most linux kernels don't include full support (if at all) for NTFS.

> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933 / heller@deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software        -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments


                                                                          
0
heller (3031)
1/11/2011 10:08:08 PM
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:08:17 -0500, Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> wrote:

> On 2011-01-11, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
>> Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with
>> my vintage Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but
>> not by Linux? All I know at this point is that formatting
>> is not at issue.
>
> Maybe they're formatted in FAT16, rather than FAT32 ?

On a floppy, I'd actually expect fat12.

The man page for mkdosfs indicates you can specify 12, 16, or 32
bit for the fat size.  I have used fat12 on a 32mb memory card.

There are three kernel modules ...

$ ll /lib/modules/2.6.33.7-desktop-2mnb/kernel/fs/fat/
total 48
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 31863 2010-09-20 15:12 fat.ko.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  5591 2010-09-20 15:12 msdos.ko.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  7579 2010-09-20 15:12 vfat.ko.gz

To the op, try adding all three to /etc/modprobe.preload,
and /etc/filesystems.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

-- 
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)
0
dwhodgins (374)
1/11/2011 10:25:54 PM
At Tue, 11 Jan 2011 17:25:54 -0500 "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:08:17 -0500, Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> wrote:
> 
> > On 2011-01-11, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
> >> Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with
> >> my vintage Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but
> >> not by Linux? All I know at this point is that formatting
> >> is not at issue.
> >
> > Maybe they're formatted in FAT16, rather than FAT32 ?
> 
> On a floppy, I'd actually expect fat12.
> 
> The man page for mkdosfs indicates you can specify 12, 16, or 32
> bit for the fat size.  I have used fat12 on a 32mb memory card.
> 
> There are three kernel modules ...
> 
> $ ll /lib/modules/2.6.33.7-desktop-2mnb/kernel/fs/fat/
> total 48
> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 31863 2010-09-20 15:12 fat.ko.gz
> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root  5591 2010-09-20 15:12 msdos.ko.gz
> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root  7579 2010-09-20 15:12 vfat.ko.gz
> 
> To the op, try adding all three to /etc/modprobe.preload,
> and /etc/filesystems.

msdos and vfat are 'wrapper' modules for fat: loading either msdos or vfat
will load in fat:

gollum.deepsoft.com% grep fat /lib/modules/2.6.18-194.26.1.el5/modules.dep 
/lib/modules/2.6.18-194.26.1.el5/kernel/fs/fat/fat.ko:
/lib/modules/2.6.18-194.26.1.el5/kernel/fs/msdos/msdos.ko: /lib/modules/2.6.18-194.26.1.el5/kernel/fs/fat/fat.ko
/lib/modules/2.6.18-194.26.1.el5/kernel/fs/vfat/vfat.ko: /lib/modules/2.6.18-194.26.1.el5/kernel/fs/fat/fat.ko

> 
> Regards, Dave Hodgins
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933 / heller@deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software        -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments


                                                                                                         
0
heller (3031)
1/11/2011 11:14:40 PM
On 2011-01-11, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
> Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with
> my vintage Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but
> not by Linux? All I know at this point is that formatting
> is not at issue.
>
> --
> Charles Packer
> http://cpacker.org/whatnews
> mailboxATcpacker.org

You might try mtools to see if they can handle your floppies.

(If you intend for the last three lines to be a signature, you
need a space after the two hypens.)

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
0
1/12/2011 4:46:43 AM
On 11/01/2011 23:08, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:08:17 +0100 Rikishi42<skunkworks@rikishi42.net>  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 2011-01-11, Charles Packer<mailbox@cpacker.org>  wrote:
>>> Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with
>>> my vintage Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but
>>> not by Linux? All I know at this point is that formatting
>>> is not at issue.
>>
>> Maybe they're formatted in FAT16, rather than FAT32 ?
>
> True floppies (eg 1.44Mbyte) are normally formatted FAT12.  FAT16 was
> for larger media, like Zip disks (100, 150, 250 mbytes).
>
>>
>> I seem to recall reading a case in which that FAT16 was supported, but
>> wasn't one of the format that the automated mounting would use.
>
> Linux does not work like that: there is fat, vfat, and msdos at the FS
> level.  Where it is 12 bit, 16 bit or 32 bit pointers happens at a lower
> level (when what passes a super-block is read at mount time).
>
>>
>> Try to mount it manually, using FAT16 as type.
>
> Under mount options for fat, vfat, and msdos:
>
>         fat=12 / fat=16 / fat=32
>                Specify a 12, 16 or 32 bit fat.  This  overrides  the automatic
>                FAT type detection routine.  Use with caution!
>
>> Also, check the type in Windows, asking for the properties of the floppy.
>>
>
> If it is (for some odd reason) NTFS, that would be different and yes,
> most linux kernels don't include full support (if at all) for NTFS.
>

Most modern distros support NTFS out of the box (perhaps read-only by 
default automatic identification, requiring an explicit fs type for 
read-write).  However, NTFS won't fit on a floppy - the basic fs 
structures are too big.

0
david2384 (2168)
1/12/2011 8:28:03 AM
On Jan 11, 11:46 pm, Robert Riches <spamtra...@jacob21819.net> wrote:
> You might try mtools to see if they can handle your floppies.
>
> (If you intend for the last three lines to be a signature, you
> need a space after the two hypens.)

Hmm... I had four spaces there. Changed it to only one
space before the newline. If it's missing, it means
that Google News stripped it.

Anyway, I'll look at mtools. I should have been more
emphatic that formatting wasn't an issue. The problem
is not that Linux doesn't like the format, but that
it gets read errors with some frequency, whereas
Windows can read the same disc okay. Evidently Linux
isn't trying hard enough. (It's the same drive in
either case.)

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

0
mailbox (57)
1/12/2011 12:15:41 PM
On Wednesday 12 January 2011 13:15 in comp.os.linux.misc, somebody
identifying as Charles Packer wrote...

> On Jan 11, 11:46 pm, Robert Riches <spamtra...@jacob21819.net> wrote:
>
>> You might try mtools to see if they can handle your floppies.
>>
>> (If you intend for the last three lines to be a signature, you
>> need a space after the two hypens.)
> 
> Hmm... I had four spaces there. Changed it to only one
> space before the newline. If it's missing, it means
> that Google News stripped it.

It probably did, because the signature's still broken.  I would either
way recommend subscribing to one of the free news servers available and
using a proper newsreader, and in that case I wholeheartedly recommend
eternal-september.org.  Details on their website.

> Anyway, I'll look at mtools.

The basically let you handle storage devices like DOS does, i.e. with
drive letters.

> I should have been more emphatic that formatting wasn't an issue.

"Empathic"? <frown>

> The problem is not that Linux doesn't like the format, but that
> it gets read errors with some frequency, whereas Windows can read the
> same disc okay.

That wouldn't surprise me, because Windows isn't too picky on such
things.  It doesn't check for errors.  It simply reports them when they
occur.

> Evidently Linux isn't trying hard enough. (It's the same drive in
> either case.)

It most certainly is trying too hard, because, as reported, Windows
doesn't do error checking - and even then still, much of what it
reports simply comes from the BIOS, rather than from checking - while
the Linux kernel does.

-- 
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)
0
aragorn (581)
1/12/2011 2:02:51 PM
On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:28:03 +0100, David Brown wrote:

> On 11/01/2011 23:08, Robert Heller wrote:
>> At Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:08:17 +0100 Rikishi42<skunkworks@rikishi42.net> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 2011-01-11, Charles Packer<mailbox@cpacker.org>  wrote:
>>>> Why can some of my older floppies, newly written on with my vintage
>>>> Sony Mavica camera, be read by Windows XP but not by Linux? All I
>>>> know at this point is that formatting is not at issue.
>>>
>>> Maybe they're formatted in FAT16, rather than FAT32 ?
>>
>> True floppies (eg 1.44Mbyte) are normally formatted FAT12.  FAT16 was
>> for larger media, like Zip disks (100, 150, 250 mbytes).
>>
>>
>>> I seem to recall reading a case in which that FAT16 was supported, but
>>> wasn't one of the format that the automated mounting would use.
>>
>> Linux does not work like that: there is fat, vfat, and msdos at the FS
>> level.  Where it is 12 bit, 16 bit or 32 bit pointers happens at a
>> lower level (when what passes a super-block is read at mount time).
>>
>>
>>> Try to mount it manually, using FAT16 as type.
>>
>> Under mount options for fat, vfat, and msdos:
>>
>>         fat=12 / fat=16 / fat=32
>>                Specify a 12, 16 or 32 bit fat.  This  overrides  the
>>                automatic FAT type detection routine.  Use with caution!
>>
>>> Also, check the type in Windows, asking for the properties of the
>>> floppy.
>>>
>>>
>> If it is (for some odd reason) NTFS, that would be different and yes,
>> most linux kernels don't include full support (if at all) for NTFS.
>>
>>
> Most modern distros support NTFS out of the box (perhaps read-only by
> default automatic identification, requiring an explicit fs type for
> read-write).  However, NTFS won't fit on a floppy - the basic fs
> structures are too big.

I had a similar problem, where I couldn't really write reliable to floppy 
disks under any linux distro.  For some odd reason, the problem just 
disappeared and now my floppy drive works find.  This is a new, AMD 64bit 
machine running Fedora 11.  I suspect the kernel.  Can you be more 
specific about the failure?  What 'dmesg' messages do you get, if any, 
about the failure.

Drivers shouldn't be an issue.  The fat or MSDOS mount option should work.
0
rotflol (24)
1/13/2011 11:34:04 AM
On Jan 12, 9:02 am, Aragorn <arag...@chatfactory.invalid> wrote:
> It most certainly is trying too hard, because, as reported, Windows
> doesn't do error checking - and even then still, much of what it
> reports simply comes from the BIOS, rather than from checking - while
> the Linux kernel does.


Okay...I'll try to verify that. Next time I have a floppy that
generates read error messages under Linux and not under Windows, I'll
inspect every image read in by Windows.

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org
0
mailbox (57)
1/14/2011 1:21:27 PM
Haven't followed this but by reading the header, maybe you have not put 
yourself in the floppy users group,
-- 
Bud
0
Bud9179 (9)
1/14/2011 10:18:25 PM
Reply: