Hi,
   I'm on the school board for a small private school, grades K through
8th.  We have a small computer lab consisting of 25 workstations,
connected to a simple Linksys switch.  We've been talking about whether
or not we need a server for this lab.  The consultant we talked to says
we need the following:

Dell server, with RAID drives and Windows 2003 25 user licenses (around
$5000)
Client backup software (around $400).
Client software called "DeepFreeze" (around $400)
$1600 worth of consulting fees to set up and educate.

So, around $7500 total.  That's a lot of money for our tiny school.

The main purposes for this are to run Virtual CD so the kid's don't
have to physically handle CDs at their workstations.  DeepFreeze
assures a time-zero image of the client after each reboot - so as
things get mucked up during class time a simple reboot puts the client
back to the way it was.

The other use is to keep a folder on the server for each client, so
they can store documents on the server rather than on the client.  And,
printer sharing.

I believe that I can do all of this with a decent desktop machine --
but I think I'm limited to 10 connections into this machine from
clients using Windows XP Professional.

If I have a lab of 25 kids, is there any way around this -- or do we
really have to go the "real server" route?

Thanks,
Randy

The short answer is that you probably do need a server. But realistically, 
it depends on how you plan to deploy your network. If you need user 
accounts, a Windows "domain" will make things MUCH easier (centrally 
managed). It also makes it easier to control user rights, permissions to 
shared resources, software deployment, on and on. Without a "server" 
(Windows Domain Controller), each workstation is a separate entity and each 
must be configured individually for user accounts, etc.

If you decide you do need a server (and I believe you do), does it need to 
be a 3.9 GHz, Dual Xeon, Raid-5? Probably not. It depends on how much you 
can afford to lose, and what the consequences of down time would be. Even 
with all this stuff, is someone gonna monitor it to make sure a drive hasn't 
failed? Will they read the backup logs every day? And will the periodically 
perform a trial restore to be certain that you CAN restore from backup if 
you really need to? Even with RAID-5, if you lose two drives you're no 
better off than if a single drive failed. And changing the tapes daily does 
not guarantee that your backups are successful.

Take a look at the Dell site yourself. They offer some lower-end servers 
with most of the power you're likely to need for 25 students, may well 
include a tape backup device AND backup software. They often go on sale and 
I bet you could get a single-processor, software mirror, Huge hard drive(s) 
for about 1/2, perhaps at the expense of some reliability. If someone else 
is going to manage your network for you, the up-front costs of a domain will 
quickly pay for themselves when your IT provider can do most management 
remotely, or at least from the server without having to spend hours 
configuring each workstation one at a time.

The biggest consideration is number of users (workstations) that will be 
accessing the server at the same time (which basically means how many 
computers are turned on and logged in). Windows 2000 Pro or XP pro will only 
accept 10 connections, and cannot be licensed to accept more. If you need 
25, then you absolutely require a server OS. As another poster stated, you 
could do this with Linux and a Samba (NT4) domain for just the price of the 
hardware. But you need to know Linux - it's a whole different ballgame. If 
you're not proficient in Linux, I wouldn't even consider it as a viable 
option. If you go with Windows server, all of your workstations must be 
Windows 2000 PRO or Windows XP PRO (NOT XP Home) to participate in a domain. 
You can still use a server without making it a domain controller, but you'll 
give up most of the centralized management and deployment functionality.

Deepfreeze will save your hide and keep expenses down. If your workstations 
have Internet access, you WILL have virus and spyware problems. Period. With 
deepfreeze, just reboot - end of problem.

$1600.00 sounds a bit steep just to set up a server. Maybe room for some 
renegotiation there..

Hope this helps,

....kurt


"Randy MacKenna" <randymackenna@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:1127081483.325320.92810@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>   I'm on the school board for a small private school, grades K through
> 8th.  We have a small computer lab consisting of 25 workstations,
> connected to a simple Linksys switch.  We've been talking about whether
> or not we need a server for this lab.  The consultant we talked to says
> we need the following:
>
> Dell server, with RAID drives and Windows 2003 25 user licenses (around
> $5000)
> Client backup software (around $400).
> Client software called "DeepFreeze" (around $400)
> $1600 worth of consulting fees to set up and educate.
>
> So, around $7500 total.  That's a lot of money for our tiny school.
>
> The main purposes for this are to run Virtual CD so the kid's don't
> have to physically handle CDs at their workstations.  DeepFreeze
> assures a time-zero image of the client after each reboot - so as
> things get mucked up during class time a simple reboot puts the client
> back to the way it was.
>
> The other use is to keep a folder on the server for each client, so
> they can store documents on the server rather than on the client.  And,
> printer sharing.
>
> I believe that I can do all of this with a decent desktop machine --
> but I think I'm limited to 10 connections into this machine from
> clients using Windows XP Professional.
>
> If I have a lab of 25 kids, is there any way around this -- or do we
> really have to go the "real server" route?
>
> Thanks,
> Randy
> 

Kurt wrote:
> The short answer is that you probably do need a server. But realistically,
> it depends on how you plan to deploy your network. If you need user
> accounts, a Windows "domain" will make things MUCH easier (centrally
> managed). It also makes it easier to control user rights, permissions to
> shared resources, software deployment, on and on. Without a "server"
> (Windows Domain Controller), each workstation is a separate entity and each
> must be configured individually for user accounts, etc.
>
> If you decide you do need a server (and I believe you do), does it need to
> be a 3.9 GHz, Dual Xeon, Raid-5? Probably not. It depends on how much you
> can afford to lose, and what the consequences of down time would be. Even
> with all this stuff, is someone gonna monitor it to make sure a drive hasn't
> failed? Will they read the backup logs every day? And will the periodically
> perform a trial restore to be certain that you CAN restore from backup if
> you really need to? Even with RAID-5, if you lose two drives you're no
> better off than if a single drive failed. And changing the tapes daily does
> not guarantee that your backups are successful.
>
> Take a look at the Dell site yourself. They offer some lower-end servers
> with most of the power you're likely to need for 25 students, may well
> include a tape backup device AND backup software. They often go on sale and
> I bet you could get a single-processor, software mirror, Huge hard drive(s)
> for about 1/2, perhaps at the expense of some reliability. If someone else
> is going to manage your network for you, the up-front costs of a domain will
> quickly pay for themselves when your IT provider can do most management
> remotely, or at least from the server without having to spend hours
> configuring each workstation one at a time.
>
> The biggest consideration is number of users (workstations) that will be
> accessing the server at the same time (which basically means how many
> computers are turned on and logged in). Windows 2000 Pro or XP pro will only
> accept 10 connections, and cannot be licensed to accept more. If you need
> 25, then you absolutely require a server OS. As another poster stated, you
> could do this with Linux and a Samba (NT4) domain for just the price of the
> hardware. But you need to know Linux - it's a whole different ballgame. If
> you're not proficient in Linux, I wouldn't even consider it as a viable
> option. If you go with Windows server, all of your workstations must be
> Windows 2000 PRO or Windows XP PRO (NOT XP Home) to participate in a domain.
> You can still use a server without making it a domain controller, but you'll
> give up most of the centralized management and deployment functionality.
>
> Deepfreeze will save your hide and keep expenses down. If your workstations
> have Internet access, you WILL have virus and spyware problems. Period. With
> deepfreeze, just reboot - end of problem.
>
> $1600.00 sounds a bit steep just to set up a server. Maybe room for some
> renegotiation there..
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> ...kurt
>
>

Thanks Kurt.  I did some more thinking/research about this tonight and
came up with an even cheaper idea.  I may be totally wrong here, but
this is what I was thinking:

1.  No server.
2.  A network storage device similar to this:  http://tinyurl.com/a8xse
3.  DeepFreeze on each client (for the nice reset to time-zero reboot)
4.  Virtual CD 7.1 on each client (to avoid the kids having to touch
the CDs)

(Virtual CD can be found here:
http://www.virtualcd-online.com/vcd/apps/overview/school.cfm?lg=0 It
seems to have gotten pretty good reviews, from what I google'd)

Each client could use the Linksys storage device to keep their "My
Documents" folder on -- and that storage device can have a 2nd drive
installed, with automated backup software (included).  The device also
has a print server, which is nice.

This is K-8th grade and the toughest workload on the network is going
to be storing PowerPoint files.  No database, no web server, just a
room of 25 clients running some basic stuff like "typing tutor" and
"jumpstart math".

Looks like this cheaper idea costs around $1500 for everything we'd
need...much easier on the budget...

Sound like something to think about, or is it a really dumb idea?

Thanks,
Randy

Randy MacKenna wrote:

> Hi,
>    I'm on the school board for a small private school, grades K through
> 8th.  We have a small computer lab consisting of 25 workstations,
> connected to a simple Linksys switch.  We've been talking about whether
> or not we need a server for this lab.  The consultant we talked to says
> we need the following:
> 
> Dell server, with RAID drives and Windows 2003 25 user licenses (around
> $5000)
> Client backup software (around $400).
> Client software called "DeepFreeze" (around $400)
> $1600 worth of consulting fees to set up and educate.
> 
> So, around $7500 total.  That's a lot of money for our tiny school.
> 
> The main purposes for this are to run Virtual CD so the kid's don't
> have to physically handle CDs at their workstations.  DeepFreeze
> assures a time-zero image of the client after each reboot - so as
> things get mucked up during class time a simple reboot puts the client
> back to the way it was.
> 
> The other use is to keep a folder on the server for each client, so
> they can store documents on the server rather than on the client.  And,
> printer sharing.
> 
> I believe that I can do all of this with a decent desktop machine --
> but I think I'm limited to 10 connections into this machine from
> clients using Windows XP Professional.
> 
> If I have a lab of 25 kids, is there any way around this -- or do we
> really have to go the "real server" route?
> 
> Thanks,
> Randy
> 
I would encourage you to at least consider Linux or Unix as an
alternative to Windows.  It can be MUCH cheaper (if the solutions
you need are available).

-- 
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam.  Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

Your tinyurl link didn't work, but I found a Linksys device that is probably 
what you are referring to. It's an embedded computer in an appliance-like 
device running Linux as a Samba server and accepts external USB drives as 
storage media. Since it's open source, there are no licensing requirements. 
Your concept actually sounds quite good. I'd check and make sure that your 
CD software doesn't require a Windows host as the network area storage (NAS) 
device. If it's ok with a Samba server, it oughta work. I'm a litle leary of 
"home-grade" hardware for use in a business scenario, but you'd have to be 
the judge of that. I'd like to see one in operation before I spent the 
money, but a good return policy if it doesn't work is a good alternative 
(don't throw the boxes away). So if you decide to give it a try and are able 
to get it up and running adequately, please post back and let us know how it 
all went.

thanks,

...kurt

"Randy MacKenna" <randymackenna@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:1127095385.747452.298370@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Kurt wrote:
>> The short answer is that you probably do need a server. But 
>> realistically,
>> it depends on how you plan to deploy your network. If you need user
>> accounts, a Windows "domain" will make things MUCH easier (centrally
>> managed). It also makes it easier to control user rights, permissions to
>> shared resources, software deployment, on and on. Without a "server"
>> (Windows Domain Controller), each workstation is a separate entity and 
>> each
>> must be configured individually for user accounts, etc.
>>
>> If you decide you do need a server (and I believe you do), does it need 
>> to
>> be a 3.9 GHz, Dual Xeon, Raid-5? Probably not. It depends on how much you
>> can afford to lose, and what the consequences of down time would be. Even
>> with all this stuff, is someone gonna monitor it to make sure a drive 
>> hasn't
>> failed? Will they read the backup logs every day? And will the 
>> periodically
>> perform a trial restore to be certain that you CAN restore from backup if
>> you really need to? Even with RAID-5, if you lose two drives you're no
>> better off than if a single drive failed. And changing the tapes daily 
>> does
>> not guarantee that your backups are successful.
>>
>> Take a look at the Dell site yourself. They offer some lower-end servers
>> with most of the power you're likely to need for 25 students, may well
>> include a tape backup device AND backup software. They often go on sale 
>> and
>> I bet you could get a single-processor, software mirror, Huge hard 
>> drive(s)
>> for about 1/2, perhaps at the expense of some reliability. If someone 
>> else
>> is going to manage your network for you, the up-front costs of a domain 
>> will
>> quickly pay for themselves when your IT provider can do most management
>> remotely, or at least from the server without having to spend hours
>> configuring each workstation one at a time.
>>
>> The biggest consideration is number of users (workstations) that will be
>> accessing the server at the same time (which basically means how many
>> computers are turned on and logged in). Windows 2000 Pro or XP pro will 
>> only
>> accept 10 connections, and cannot be licensed to accept more. If you need
>> 25, then you absolutely require a server OS. As another poster stated, 
>> you
>> could do this with Linux and a Samba (NT4) domain for just the price of 
>> the
>> hardware. But you need to know Linux - it's a whole different ballgame. 
>> If
>> you're not proficient in Linux, I wouldn't even consider it as a viable
>> option. If you go with Windows server, all of your workstations must be
>> Windows 2000 PRO or Windows XP PRO (NOT XP Home) to participate in a 
>> domain.
>> You can still use a server without making it a domain controller, but 
>> you'll
>> give up most of the centralized management and deployment functionality.
>>
>> Deepfreeze will save your hide and keep expenses down. If your 
>> workstations
>> have Internet access, you WILL have virus and spyware problems. Period. 
>> With
>> deepfreeze, just reboot - end of problem.
>>
>> $1600.00 sounds a bit steep just to set up a server. Maybe room for some
>> renegotiation there..
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>>
>> ...kurt
>>
>>
>
> Thanks Kurt.  I did some more thinking/research about this tonight and
> came up with an even cheaper idea.  I may be totally wrong here, but
> this is what I was thinking:
>
> 1.  No server.
> 2.  A network storage device similar to this:  http://tinyurl.com/a8xse
> 3.  DeepFreeze on each client (for the nice reset to time-zero reboot)
> 4.  Virtual CD 7.1 on each client (to avoid the kids having to touch
> the CDs)
>
> (Virtual CD can be found here:
> http://www.virtualcd-online.com/vcd/apps/overview/school.cfm?lg=0 It
> seems to have gotten pretty good reviews, from what I google'd)
>
> Each client could use the Linksys storage device to keep their "My
> Documents" folder on -- and that storage device can have a 2nd drive
> installed, with automated backup software (included).  The device also
> has a print server, which is nice.
>
> This is K-8th grade and the toughest workload on the network is going
> to be storing PowerPoint files.  No database, no web server, just a
> room of 25 clients running some basic stuff like "typing tutor" and
> "jumpstart math".
>
> Looks like this cheaper idea costs around $1500 for everything we'd
> need...much easier on the budget...
>
> Sound like something to think about, or is it a really dumb idea?
>
> Thanks,
> Randy
> 

Kurt wrote:
> Your tinyurl link didn't work, but I found a Linksys device that is probably
> what you are referring to. It's an embedded computer in an appliance-like
> device running Linux as a Samba server and accepts external USB drives as
> storage media. Since it's open source, there are no licensing requirements.
> Your concept actually sounds quite good. I'd check and make sure that your
> CD software doesn't require a Windows host as the network area storage (NAS)
> device. If it's ok with a Samba server, it oughta work. I'm a litle leary of
> "home-grade" hardware for use in a business scenario, but you'd have to be
> the judge of that. I'd like to see one in operation before I spent the
> money, but a good return policy if it doesn't work is a good alternative
> (don't throw the boxes away). So if you decide to give it a try and are able
> to get it up and running adequately, please post back and let us know how it
> all went.
>
> thanks,
>
> ..kurt
>

Thanks for the insight...actually (I'm not sure why the tinyURL didn't
work, it works for me) it's a Linksys EFG120, which is a very
inexpensive device that has one hard drive and a spot for one other
internal drive.  It has mixed reviews so I'm not hung up on the exact
device, but rather the concept.  I like the fact that it does automated
backup and it contains a print server.  The device you found might
actually fit the ticket better; I'll go check it out.

The CD emulation software can just run on each client, so it doesn't
need to be hosted.

I have to work with the instructors, and the school board (and probably
the consultant) before we finalize what we are going to do.  Whatever
we end up configuring, I'll post back here.

Thanks,
Randy

http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Reviews-155-ProdID-NSLU2.php

"Randy MacKenna" <randymackenna@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:1127223153.153693.210370@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Kurt wrote:
>> Your tinyurl link didn't work, but I found a Linksys device that is 
>> probably
>> what you are referring to. It's an embedded computer in an appliance-like
>> device running Linux as a Samba server and accepts external USB drives as
>> storage media. Since it's open source, there are no licensing 
>> requirements.
>> Your concept actually sounds quite good. I'd check and make sure that 
>> your
>> CD software doesn't require a Windows host as the network area storage 
>> (NAS)
>> device. If it's ok with a Samba server, it oughta work. I'm a litle leary 
>> of
>> "home-grade" hardware for use in a business scenario, but you'd have to 
>> be
>> the judge of that. I'd like to see one in operation before I spent the
>> money, but a good return policy if it doesn't work is a good alternative
>> (don't throw the boxes away). So if you decide to give it a try and are 
>> able
>> to get it up and running adequately, please post back and let us know how 
>> it
>> all went.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> ..kurt
>>
>
> Thanks for the insight...actually (I'm not sure why the tinyURL didn't
> work, it works for me) it's a Linksys EFG120, which is a very
> inexpensive device that has one hard drive and a spot for one other
> internal drive.  It has mixed reviews so I'm not hung up on the exact
> device, but rather the concept.  I like the fact that it does automated
> backup and it contains a print server.  The device you found might
> actually fit the ticket better; I'll go check it out.
>
> The CD emulation software can just run on each client, so it doesn't
> need to be hosted.
>
> I have to work with the instructors, and the school board (and probably
> the consultant) before we finalize what we are going to do.  Whatever
> we end up configuring, I'll post back here.
>
> Thanks,
> Randy
>