I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all this
time?
--=20
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
> I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
> priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all this
> time?

Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 225
UKP at ebay-uk: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656 

On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 10:46 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
> > I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
> > priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all this
> > time?
>=20
> Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 225
> UKP at ebay-uk: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656=20

That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.=20
--=20
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 10:46 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
>> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
>> > I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
>> > priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all this
>> > time?
>> 
>> Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 225
>> UKP at ebay-uk: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656 
>
> That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though. 

Oh sorry, anyway 4.5 UKP is over-priced, like thos 1gb scsi harddisks
for about 200 Euros and 30day warranty at ebay. 

On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 11:07 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 10:46 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
> >> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
> >> > I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
> >> > priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all t=
his
> >> > time?
> >>=20
> >> Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 225
> >> UKP at ebay-uk: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656=20
> >
> > That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.=20
>=20
> Oh sorry, anyway 4.5 UKP is over-priced, like thos 1gb scsi harddisks
> for about 200 Euros and 30day warranty at ebay.=20

However, I did see a 433 for 160 notes though. Would it still be fast
enough?=20
--=20
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 9/12/2011 6:15 AM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
> priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all this
> time?

Clearly, the seller believes that someone will pay that much.  Time will 
tell if he is right or wrong!

Single Stage to Orbit wrote 2011-09-12 16:06:
> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 11:07 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
>> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit<alex.buell@munted.org.uk>  wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 10:46 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
>>>> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit<alex.buell@munted.org.uk>  wrote:
>>>>> I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
>>>>> priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all this
>>>>> time?
>>>>
>>>> Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 225
>>>> UKP at ebay-uk: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656
>>>
>>> That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.
>>
>> Oh sorry, anyway 4.5 UKP is over-priced, like thos 1gb scsi harddisks
>> for about 200 Euros and 30day warranty at ebay.
>
> However, I did see a 433 for 160 notes though. Would it still be fast
> enough?

Fast enough for *WHAT* ??

On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 18:03 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Single Stage to Orbit wrote 2011-09-12 16:06:
> > On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 11:07 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
> >> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit<alex.buell@munted.org.uk>  wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 10:46 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
> >>>> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit<alex.buell@munted.org.uk>  wrot=
e:
> >>>>> I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them wer=
e
> >>>>> priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all =
this
> >>>>> time?
> >>>>
> >>>> Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 22=
5
> >>>> UKP at ebay-uk: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656
> >>>
> >>> That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.
> >>
> >> Oh sorry, anyway 4.5 UKP is over-priced, like thos 1gb scsi harddisks
> >> for about 200 Euros and 30day warranty at ebay.
> >
> > However, I did see a 433 for 160 notes though. Would it still be fast
> > enough?
>=20
> Fast enough for *WHAT* ??

In terms of x86, which of the x86 processors would a 433 be as fast as,
say a 2.8GHz P4?
--=20
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 11:07 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
>> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 10:46 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
>> >> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.org.uk> wrote:
>> >> > I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
>> >> > priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all this
>> >> > time?
>> >> 
>> >> Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 225
>> >> UKP at ebay-uk: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656 
>> >
>> > That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though. 
>> 
>> Oh sorry, anyway 4.5 UKP is over-priced, like thos 1gb scsi harddisks
>> for about 200 Euros and 30day warranty at ebay. 
>
> However, I did see a 433 for 160 notes though. Would it still be fast
> enough? 

Nice Machine, i got two pieces for free and i'm using one as my main
workstation at home. It strongly depends on what you want to do with it.

On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 18:40 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
> >> Oh sorry, anyway 4.5 UKP is over-priced, like thos 1gb scsi
> harddisks
> >> for about 200 Euros and 30day warranty at ebay.=20
> >
> > However, I did see a 433 for 160 notes though. Would it still be
> fast
> > enough?=20
>=20
> Nice Machine, i got two pieces for free and i'm using one as my main
> workstation at home. It strongly depends on what you want to do with
> it.=20

For free? Lucky. :)
--=20
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Single Stage to Orbit wrote 2011-09-12 19:22:
> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 18:03 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> Single Stage to Orbit wrote 2011-09-12 16:06:
>>> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 11:07 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
>>>> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit<alex.buell@munted.org.uk>   wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 10:46 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
>>>>>> On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit<alex.buell@munted.org.uk>   wrote:
>>>>>>> I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
>>>>>>> priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all this
>>>>>>> time?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 225
>>>>>> UKP at ebay-uk: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.
>>>>
>>>> Oh sorry, anyway 4.5 UKP is over-priced, like thos 1gb scsi harddisks
>>>> for about 200 Euros and 30day warranty at ebay.
>>>
>>> However, I did see a 433 for 160 notes though. Would it still be fast
>>> enough?
>>
>> Fast enough for *WHAT* ??
>
> In terms of x86, which of the x86 processors would a 433 be as fast as,
> say a 2.8GHz P4?

Running what ?
They probably doesn't even run the same thing(s).
And why does that matter ?

On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 21:26 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> > In terms of x86, which of the x86 processors would a 433 be as fast
> as,
> > say a 2.8GHz P4?
>=20
> Running what ?
> They probably doesn't even run the same thing(s).
> And why does that matter ?=20

Well, if you're a developer building software, it probably does matter.=20
--=20
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Single Stage to Orbit wrote 2011-09-12 22:03:
> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 21:26 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>> In terms of x86, which of the x86 processors would a 433 be as fast
>> as,
>>> say a 2.8GHz P4?
>>
>> Running what ?
>> They probably doesn't even run the same thing(s).
>> And why does that matter ?
>
> Well, if you're a developer building software, it probably does matter.

OK.
Get a DS10, DS15 or an IA64 box if you are a developer building software.
If speed is an issue for you, get a fast box, the DS15 is realy nice.
It does have a little higher second hand price for that reason.
In Sweden you have to pay aprox $3-4.000 USD to get one.

Probably not comparable with a 2.8 GHz P4, but I can not see
what that has to do with anything. For developing Alpha software,
the P4 is hardly an option anyway, is it ?

Or run Personal Alpha on the fastest Intel box you can find. Probably
very competetive with the older Alphas (like a 466 Mhz box).

Finaly, when developing software, most time is spent in the editor. :-)

On Sep 12, 1:00=A0pm, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.bu...@munted.org.uk>
wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 10:46 +0000, Robert Doerfler wrote:
> > On 2011-09-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.bu...@munted.org.uk> wrote:
> > > I just looked for some DS20s in the UK via google. Some of them were
> > > priced at 4.5k UKP. Why are they still so expensive even after all th=
is
> > > time?
>
> > Hehe, maybe you shouldnt look for it at google. I see a ds20e for 225
> > UKP at ebay-uk:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350484727656
>
> That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.
> --
> Tactical Nuclear Kittens

That doesn't make a difference. Drop in a decent graphics card (like a
RadeOn 7500)
et voila, here's your AlphaStation DS20E. Or are you worrying about
the form factor
(rackmount vs pedestal)?

FWIW: I think the DS20E is preferable to the DS20 (smaller and not
quite as power
hungry).

Marc

Put FreeAXP on a laptop and have an economical, portable Alpha
workstation.

www.FreeAXP.com

On Tue, 2011-09-13 at 07:16 -0700, bclaremont wrote:
> Put FreeAXP on a laptop and have an economical, portable Alpha
> workstation.
>=20
> www.FreeAXP.com

There's also the ES40 emulator available on Linux platforms, which I use
albeit very slowly :)
--=20
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

En el art�culo <na51k8-jj6.ln1@nntp.local.net>, Single Stage to Orbit
<alex.buell@munted.org.uk> escribi�:

>That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though. 

What's the difference?

The AlphaServer DS10 and AlphaStation XP900 are the exact same box with
a different badge on the front and a price tag to match.

-- 
(\__/)   
(='.'=) 
(")_(") 

On Sep 14, 5:47=A0am, Mike Tomlinson <m...@jasper.org.uk> wrote:
> En el art culo <na51k8-jj6....@nntp.local.net>, Single Stage to Orbit
> <alex.bu...@munted.org.uk> escribi :
>
> >That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.
>
> What's the difference?
>
> The AlphaServer DS10 and AlphaStation XP900 are the exact same box with
> a different badge on the front and a price tag to match.
>
Marketing?
The VAXstation 4000 or 3100 systems al had dedicated hardware (i.e.
controllers would fit in
just one or two models) to drive a graphics monitor, which itself was
a pretty expensive part as well.
PCI changed all that, prices dropped and the only difference between a
server and a station really is
whether the building block in the S&O Catalog included a graphics
controller and a matching nametag.
There may be examples though where the station model runs more quiet
than the server. From what
I've read in c.o.v. this is true for IA64 systems.
Hans

On Sep 15, 8:03=A0am, Hans Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote:
> On Sep 14, 5:47=A0am, Mike Tomlinson <m...@jasper.org.uk> wrote:> En el a=
rt culo <na51k8-jj6....@nntp.local.net>, Single Stage to Orbit
> > <alex.bu...@munted.org.uk> escribi :
>
> > >That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.
>
> > What's the difference?
>
> > The AlphaServer DS10 and AlphaStation XP900 are the exact same box with
> > a different badge on the front and a price tag to match.
>
> Marketing?
> The VAXstation 4000 or 3100 systems al had dedicated hardware (i.e.
> controllers would fit in
> just one or two models) to drive a graphics monitor, which itself was
> a pretty expensive part as well.
> PCI changed all that, prices dropped and the only difference between a
> server and a station really is
> whether the building block in the S&O Catalog included a graphics
> controller and a matching nametag.
> There may be examples though where the station model runs more quiet
> than the server. From what
> I've read in c.o.v. this is true for IA64 systems.
> Hans

VAXstation 3100 graphics were pretty much dedicated.

On the other hand by the time of the VAXstation 4000, there were
TURBOchannel graphics cards. TURBOchannel was a DEC-pioneered but
license and royalty free IO card standard, intended to be common
across a range of systems abd vendors, and indeed was found on the
VAXstation 4000s and on the DEC 3000 Alpha boxes (and the MIPS-based
DECstation and DECsystem Ultrix boxes which quietly preceded them),
and used for things like graphics, SCSI, network, and also for more
specialist stuff such as TURBOchannel to VME adapters.

Then, as you say, along came PCI and the rules changed.

On the non-hardware front, a common difference at one time between
workstations and their server equivalents was the bundled licenses.
Back then, to someone who wanted a selection of bundled server-type
capabilities at a massive discount vs buying the individual licences
at list price, a server package (especially one with a nice Network
Application Support or NAS bundle) was a good option. This difference
may not be relevant nowadays, especially to the hobbyist user.


TURBOchannel overview: http://www.quantcomp.com/portfolio/turbo.pdf

On Sep 15, 10:01=A0am, John Wallace <johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sep 15, 8:03=A0am, Hans Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 14, 5:47=A0am, Mike Tomlinson <m...@jasper.org.uk> wrote:> En el=
 art culo <na51k8-jj6....@nntp.local.net>, Single Stage to Orbit
> > > <alex.bu...@munted.org.uk> escribi :
>
> > > >That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.
>
> > > What's the difference?
>
> > > The AlphaServer DS10 and AlphaStation XP900 are the exact same box wi=
th
> > > a different badge on the front and a price tag to match.
>
> > Marketing?
> > The VAXstation 4000 or 3100 systems al had dedicated hardware (i.e.
> > controllers would fit in
> > just one or two models) to drive a graphics monitor, which itself was
> > a pretty expensive part as well.
> > PCI changed all that, prices dropped and the only difference between a
> > server and a station really is
> > whether the building block in the S&O Catalog included a graphics
> > controller and a matching nametag.
> > There may be examples though where the station model runs more quiet
> > than the server. From what
> > I've read in c.o.v. this is true for IA64 systems.
> > Hans
>
> VAXstation 3100 graphics were pretty much dedicated.
>
> On the other hand by the time of the VAXstation 4000, there were
> TURBOchannel graphics cards. TURBOchannel was a DEC-pioneered but
> license and royalty free IO card standard, intended to be common
> across a range of systems abd vendors, and indeed was found on the
> VAXstation 4000s and on the DEC 3000 Alpha boxes (and the MIPS-based
> DECstation and DECsystem Ultrix boxes which quietly preceded them),
> and used for things like graphics, SCSI, network, and also for more
> specialist stuff such as TURBOchannel to VME adapters.
>
> Then, as you say, along came PCI and the rules changed.
>
> On the non-hardware front, a common difference at one time between
> workstations and their server equivalents was the bundled licenses.
> Back then, to someone who wanted a selection of bundled server-type
> capabilities at a massive discount vs buying the individual licences
> at list price, a server package (especially one with a nice Network
> Application Support or NAS bundle) was a good option. This difference
> may not be relevant nowadays, especially to the hobbyist user.
>
> TURBOchannel overview:http://www.quantcomp.com/portfolio/turbo.pdf- Hide =
quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Licensing is indeed something else again. For VAX/VMS a D license was
needed
on the VAXstation models. AXP/VMS needs DW-MOTIF and that was probably
not
cheap either.
Most of the bundled licensing took place on AXP/VMS, right? The only
"bundled" license
that I remember is DECSET.
ISTR that the turbochannel graphics adapters for the AXP 3000 series
were not supported
by VAX/VMS, is that correct?
Hans

On Sep 19, 7:46=A0am, Hans Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote:
> On Sep 15, 10:01=A0am, John Wallace <johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 15, 8:03=A0am, Hans Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 14, 5:47=A0am, Mike Tomlinson <m...@jasper.org.uk> wrote:> En =
el art culo <na51k8-jj6....@nntp.local.net>, Single Stage to Orbit
> > > > <alex.bu...@munted.org.uk> escribi :
>
> > > > >That's an alpha server, not an alpha station though.
>
> > > > What's the difference?
>
> > > > The AlphaServer DS10 and AlphaStation XP900 are the exact same box =
with
> > > > a different badge on the front and a price tag to match.
>
> > > Marketing?
> > > The VAXstation 4000 or 3100 systems al had dedicated hardware (i.e.
> > > controllers would fit in
> > > just one or two models) to drive a graphics monitor, which itself was
> > > a pretty expensive part as well.
> > > PCI changed all that, prices dropped and the only difference between =
a
> > > server and a station really is
> > > whether the building block in the S&O Catalog included a graphics
> > > controller and a matching nametag.
> > > There may be examples though where the station model runs more quiet
> > > than the server. From what
> > > I've read in c.o.v. this is true for IA64 systems.
> > > Hans
>
> > VAXstation 3100 graphics were pretty much dedicated.
>
> > On the other hand by the time of the VAXstation 4000, there were
> > TURBOchannel graphics cards. TURBOchannel was a DEC-pioneered but
> > license and royalty free IO card standard, intended to be common
> > across a range of systems abd vendors, and indeed was found on the
> > VAXstation 4000s and on the DEC 3000 Alpha boxes (and the MIPS-based
> > DECstation and DECsystem Ultrix boxes which quietly preceded them),
> > and used for things like graphics, SCSI, network, and also for more
> > specialist stuff such as TURBOchannel to VME adapters.
>
> > Then, as you say, along came PCI and the rules changed.
>
> > On the non-hardware front, a common difference at one time between
> > workstations and their server equivalents was the bundled licenses.
> > Back then, to someone who wanted a selection of bundled server-type
> > capabilities at a massive discount vs buying the individual licences
> > at list price, a server package (especially one with a nice Network
> > Application Support or NAS bundle) was a good option. This difference
> > may not be relevant nowadays, especially to the hobbyist user.
>
> > TURBOchannel overview:http://www.quantcomp.com/portfolio/turbo.pdf-Hide=
 quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Licensing is indeed something else again. For VAX/VMS a D license was
> needed
> on the VAXstation models. AXP/VMS needs DW-MOTIF and that was probably
> not
> cheap either.
> Most of the bundled licensing took place on AXP/VMS, right? The only
> "bundled" license
> that I remember is DECSET.
> ISTR that the turbochannel graphics adapters for the AXP 3000 series
> were not supported
> by VAX/VMS, is that correct?
> Hans

Plenty of VAX and/or VAXstation boxes from the 3100/4000 era came with
NAS bundles, check a few SOC pages or Quickspecs from the relevant era
(e.g. search for NAS Client 150 or 250) . Normal customers wouldn't
need to buy a DECwindows licence because they'd have bought one with
the bundled NAS Client: "NAS Client 150 for VAXstations; DECwindows
Motif, DECmessageQ RT, ObjectBroker RT, DECnet End Node, DECnet/OSI
End System, DEC TCP/IP Client, VMScluster Client" (from the randomly
chosen VS4000/60 QuickSpec at http://h18002.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs=
/SOC/QB0011PF.PDF,
but plenty of similar ones elsewhere)

I don't recollect DECset being part of these deals, but maybe there
was a local promotion going on where you were? Certainly far too few
people used the DECset tools, and price may of course have been part
of the reason.

More usually, lack of awareness (including of the NAS packages) was a
problem. There's a handy little description of what they are and
what's included in the "HP NAS Packages for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha
Systems Installation Guide" though obviously the content goes back
long before HP.

Find a sample Installation Guide at
http://h30266.www3.hp.com/odl/vax/network/nas83c/nas_vax_over1.html or
check the SPDs or whatever suits.

It's too complicated to summarise briefly, but for workstations the
basic NAS package (NAS Client 150) included DECwindows and base
networking (DECnet and TCP) and VMScluster client, and the next level
up (NAS Client 250) added things like RTR, DQS, DCPS, etc.

It was usually quite difficult (and definitely not cost effective) to
buy a VAX or Alpha *without* the matching client or server NAS
package.

You are likely correct (though I haven't checked 100%) that there are
no graphics cards common between the VAXstation 4000 and the DEC 3000
series. The VAXstation 4000 series were largely still using the
VAXstation 3100-era SPX designs, while the DEC 3000 series had moved
on to the ZLX series (precursor to the ZLXp cards used in the
AlphaStations).

In article 
<9a081c9c-7447-47fd-997a-b5b7131712ad@et6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
 John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I don't recollect DECset being part of these deals, but maybe there
> was a local promotion going on where you were? Certainly far too few
> people used the DECset tools, and price may of course have been part
> of the reason.

For whatever reason I hardly ever came across DECset in the UK, though I 
did come across LSE.  It was also missing at customers who had pretty 
much the full range of compilers so I wonder if it was an omission by 
the salesdroids concerned.

-- 
Paul Sture