I'm a computer-assisted reporting specialist at a newspaper in Nevada
-- my beat is essentially data mining in the public realm.  I'm in the
middle of negotiations for inspection records kept by the local health
district in a VAX minicomputer that probably runs VMS.  They are
basically telling me that their system has no way of exporting data
that's been entered over the years, which I find highly unlikely.
Their IT department probably (a) doesn't know how or (b) just doesn't
feel like it and hopes that this response will make me go away.

All I want is a dump of these records into a file -- ideally as ASCII
text, fixed-width or character-delimited.  I've talked to some
colleagues who have had limited VAX/VMS experience and have been told
this is entirely possible: "They should definitely be able to get the
data out, they might want to send it on a tape format,  but unless
they've got some really bizarre system, they should be able to copy it
to some physical device or they can probably transfer it over a
network to some other system to copy the data on to."

Even if they have to dump it to reel-to-reel tapes or cartridges, I
have a consultant in Missouri with equipment to transfer it to a
different medium.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Specific information like:
- Further things to find out about their VAX computer
- Commands to transfer this data out of the system in a usable format

If I'm just out of luck and will have to spend hours building my own
database from paper documents, I'd like to know that too.

Thank you,

Alex Richards
CAR Specialist
Las Vegas Sun

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:06:04 -0700, <richards.alex@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm a computer-assisted reporting specialist at a newspaper in Nevada
> -- my beat is essentially data mining in the public realm.  I'm in the
> middle of negotiations for inspection records kept by the local health
> district in a VAX minicomputer that probably runs VMS.  They are
> basically telling me that their system has no way of exporting data
> that's been entered over the years, which I find highly unlikely.
> Their IT department probably (a) doesn't know how or (b) just doesn't
> feel like it and hopes that this response will make me go away.
>
> All I want is a dump of these records into a file -- ideally as ASCII
> text, fixed-width or character-delimited.  I've talked to some
> colleagues who have had limited VAX/VMS experience and have been told
> this is entirely possible: "They should definitely be able to get the
> data out, they might want to send it on a tape format,  but unless
> they've got some really bizarre system, they should be able to copy it
> to some physical device or they can probably transfer it over a
> network to some other system to copy the data on to."
>
> Even if they have to dump it to reel-to-reel tapes or cartridges, I
> have a consultant in Missouri with equipment to transfer it to a
> different medium.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Specific information like:
> - Further things to find out about their VAX computer
> - Commands to transfer this data out of the system in a usable format
>
> If I'm just out of luck and will have to spend hours building my own
> database from paper documents, I'd like to know that too.
>
They are giving you the run-around, there is likely many different ways to
extract the data, the method chosen depends on how it is stored.

> Thank you,
>
> Alex Richards
> CAR Specialist
> Las Vegas Sun
>



-- 
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com

On Aug 29, 12:06 pm, richards.a...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm a computer-assisted reporting specialist at a newspaper in Nevada
> -- my beat is essentially data mining in the public realm.  I'm in the
> middle of negotiations for inspection records kept by the local health
> district in a VAX minicomputer that probably runs VMS.  They are
> basically telling me that their system has no way of exporting data
> that's been entered over the years, which I find highly unlikely.
> Their IT department probably (a) doesn't know how or (b) just doesn't
> feel like it and hopes that this response will make me go away.
>
> All I want is a dump of these records into a file -- ideally as ASCII
> text, fixed-width or character-delimited.  I've talked to some
> colleagues who have had limited VAX/VMS experience and have been told
> this is entirely possible: "They should definitely be able to get the
> data out, they might want to send it on a tape format,  but unless
> they've got some really bizarre system, they should be able to copy it
> to some physical device or they can probably transfer it over a
> network to some other system to copy the data on to."
>
> Even if they have to dump it to reel-to-reel tapes or cartridges, I
> have a consultant in Missouri with equipment to transfer it to a
> different medium.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Specific information like:
> - Further things to find out about their VAX computer
> - Commands to transfer this data out of the system in a usable format
>
> If I'm just out of luck and will have to spend hours building my own
> database from paper documents, I'd like to know that too.
>

"Local Health District" implies that there might be some rather
personal and sensitive data stored in that system. I would hope this
system is secure and that access to that data is highly restricted. I
suspect they know exactly how to give you what you're asking for, but
to do so would cost a bit more time and money than they have to spend.

You imply that they gave you hard-copy that has the information you
need, so maybe they can direct those reports to disk in ASCII format
and copy those files up to tape or FTP them over to a PC where you can
get it on portable media. You can then import it into a spread-sheet
or whatever -- although a secured site might not allow any type of
unencrypted electronic data transfer. If they can give you ASCII
report data, though, I wouldn't expect them to do it for free (read:
on the taxpayer's dollar.)

On Aug 29, 11:19 am, Doug Phillips <dphil...@netscape.net> wrote:
> On Aug 29, 12:06 pm, richards.a...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm a computer-assisted reporting specialist at a newspaper in Nevada
> > -- my beat is essentially data mining in the public realm.  I'm in the
> > middle of negotiations for inspection records kept by the local health
> > district in a VAX minicomputer that probably runs VMS.  They are
> > basically telling me that their system has no way of exporting data
> > that's been entered over the years, which I find highly unlikely.
> > Their IT department probably (a) doesn't know how or (b) just doesn't
> > feel like it and hopes that this response will make me go away.
>
> > All I want is a dump of these records into a file -- ideally as ASCII
> > text, fixed-width or character-delimited.  I've talked to some
> > colleagues who have had limited VAX/VMS experience and have been told
> > this is entirely possible: "They should definitely be able to get the
> > data out, they might want to send it on a tape format,  but unless
> > they've got some really bizarre system, they should be able to copy it
> > to some physical device or they can probably transfer it over a
> > network to some other system to copy the data on to."
>
> > Even if they have to dump it to reel-to-reel tapes or cartridges, I
> > have a consultant in Missouri with equipment to transfer it to a
> > different medium.
>
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Specific information like:
> > - Further things to find out about their VAX computer
> > - Commands to transfer this data out of the system in a usable format
>
> > If I'm just out of luck and will have to spend hours building my own
> > database from paper documents, I'd like to know that too.
>
> "Local Health District" implies that there might be some rather
> personal and sensitive data stored in that system. I would hope this
> system is secure and that access to that data is highly restricted. I
> suspect they know exactly how to give you what you're asking for, but
> to do so would cost a bit more time and money than they have to spend.
>
> You imply that they gave you hard-copy that has the information you
> need, so maybe they can direct those reports to disk in ASCII format
> and copy those files up to tape or FTP them over to a PC where you can
> get it on portable media. You can then import it into a spread-sheet
> or whatever -- although a secured site might not allow any type of
> unencrypted electronic data transfer. If they can give you ASCII
> report data, though, I wouldn't expect them to do it for free (read:
> on the taxpayer's dollar.)

I suppose I implied too much.  They didn't give me hard copy -- they
directed me toward filing cabinets and boxes of inspections reports
(for restaurants, public pools, tattoo parlors) at $0.20 to $0.50 per
copy/page plus staff time.  Slightly out of my price range,
unfortunately.

They enter these forms into the VAX system.  Regardless of what else
is maintained on their VAX system, what I want is of public interested
and has no exemption under state open records law.  I'm not interested
in disseminating private or personal information.

Most agencies won't do it for free because they don't want to set that
kind of precedent.  I'm willing to pay a reasonable amount.

On Aug 29, 2:11 pm, richards.a...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 29, 11:19 am, Doug Phillips <dphil...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 29, 12:06 pm, richards.a...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > I'm a computer-assisted reporting specialist at a newspaper in Nevada
> > > -- my beat is essentially data mining in the public realm.  I'm in the
> > > middle of negotiations for inspection records kept by the local health
> > > district in a VAX minicomputer that probably runs VMS.  They are
> > > basically telling me that their system has no way of exporting data
> > > that's been entered over the years, which I find highly unlikely.
> > > Their IT department probably (a) doesn't know how or (b) just doesn't
> > > feel like it and hopes that this response will make me go away.
>
> > > All I want is a dump of these records into a file -- ideally as ASCII
> > > text, fixed-width or character-delimited.  I've talked to some
> > > colleagues who have had limited VAX/VMS experience and have been told
> > > this is entirely possible: "They should definitely be able to get the
> > > data out, they might want to send it on a tape format,  but unless
> > > they've got some really bizarre system, they should be able to copy it
> > > to some physical device or they can probably transfer it over a
> > > network to some other system to copy the data on to."
>
> > > Even if they have to dump it to reel-to-reel tapes or cartridges, I
> > > have a consultant in Missouri with equipment to transfer it to a
> > > different medium.
>
> > > Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Specific information like:
> > > - Further things to find out about their VAX computer
> > > - Commands to transfer this data out of the system in a usable format
>
> > > If I'm just out of luck and will have to spend hours building my own
> > > database from paper documents, I'd like to know that too.
>
> > "Local Health District" implies that there might be some rather
> > personal and sensitive data stored in that system. I would hope this
> > system is secure and that access to that data is highly restricted. I
> > suspect they know exactly how to give you what you're asking for, but
> > to do so would cost a bit more time and money than they have to spend.
>
> > You imply that they gave you hard-copy that has the information you
> > need, so maybe they can direct those reports to disk in ASCII format
> > and copy those files up to tape or FTP them over to a PC where you can
> > get it on portable media. You can then import it into a spread-sheet
> > or whatever -- although a secured site might not allow any type of
> > unencrypted electronic data transfer. If they can give you ASCII
> > report data, though, I wouldn't expect them to do it for free (read:
> > on the taxpayer's dollar.)
>
> I suppose I implied too much.  They didn't give me hard copy -- they
> directed me toward filing cabinets and boxes of inspections reports
> (for restaurants, public pools, tattoo parlors) at $0.20 to $0.50 per
> copy/page plus staff time.  Slightly out of my price range,
> unfortunately.
>
> They enter these forms into the VAX system.  Regardless of what else
> is maintained on their VAX system, what I want is of public interested
> and has no exemption under state open records law.  I'm not interested
> in disseminating private or personal information.
>
> Most agencies won't do it for free because they don't want to set that
> kind of precedent.  I'm willing to pay a reasonable amount.

Then it's possible the system doesn't maintain historical data on-line
(older than some date), but they have archived it to some backup media
(maybe it's just printed) and purged it from the current data-base.
That's rather typical. Disk storage in the VAX era was very expensive
and without knowing the particulars, I'd suspect they only keep the
data on-line that they are required by law/regulation to keep. Even
today's server storage isn't so cheap that you don't keep lots of
stuff on-line that you don't need.

In that case, you can probably understand why restoring it and
regenerating the data electronically would not be practical.

Even if the history is still in the data-base, while you don't want
private and personal data it's there and there might not be an
existing way to extract only the public portion you need without a
programming effort -- which would take time and money.

If it is there, and they can reprint the public reports for the
period(s) you're after, then explore my suggestion. If it isn't there,
or it has been summarized in a way you can't use, or they can't
reprint it at all, then you're out of luck.

We can only guess, and only they know for sure.

On 08/29/07 14:47, Doug Phillips wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Then it's possible the system doesn't maintain historical data on-line
> (older than some date), but they have archived it to some backup media

Or lost it...

-- 
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

On Aug 29, 3:03 pm, Ron Johnson <ron.l.john...@cox.net> wrote:
> On 08/29/07 14:47, Doug Phillips wrote:
> [snip]
>
>
>
> > Then it's possible the system doesn't maintain historical data on-line
> > (older than some date), but they have archived it to some backup media
>
> Or lost it...
>

I think it's all on those stacks of 5-1/4" floppies setting over on
that old x-ray machine in the corner:-)

In article <1188414708.414314.207500@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, 
richards.alex@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Aug 29, 12:06 pm, richards.a...@gmail.com wrote
>> > I'm a computer-assisted reporting specialist at a newspaper in Nevada
[...]
>I suppose I implied too much.  They didn't give me hard copy -- they
>directed me toward filing cabinets and boxes of inspections reports
>(for restaurants, public pools, tattoo parlors) at $0.20 to $0.50 per
>copy/page plus staff time.  Slightly out of my price range,
>unfortunately.
>
>They enter these forms into the VAX system.  Regardless of what else
>is maintained on their VAX system, what I want is of public interested
>and has no exemption under state open records law.  I'm not interested
>in disseminating private or personal information.
>
>Most agencies won't do it for free because they don't want to set that
>kind of precedent.  I'm willing to pay a reasonable amount.

Noting that you work for a newspaper, why should *you* pay for the information? 
Certainly, if the records are truly in the "public interest", then it is in the
best interest of the newspaper (one of whose goals is to protect the "public
interest") to pony up whatever monies are necessary to keep the public informed
as to how their money is being spent.

Then again, I'm probably incredibly naive enough to believe that a newspaper
is something more that just a typical money-grubbing enterprise, whose only
interest is to look after the welfare of their owners, to the detriment of
their employees and the general public.	:-)

In article <1188407164.551718.115840@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,  richards.alex@gmail.com writes:

> All I want is a dump of these records into a file -- ideally as ASCII
> text, fixed-width or character-delimited. 

   Who pays for this?

   Moving their data from whatever storage they've got it in to a file
   of ASCII records, or even just a file without record lookup keys or 
   other overhead may not be a capability their system has.  It may cost 
   quite a bit to add the capability to honor your request.

   There may be no-one with the technical expertise to honor your
   request, so there would be cost to bring in a consultant to work it
   out.

   It is possible that there VAX has no removable media and no network
   access.  I don't think I'd configure a system like that for important
   data as I depend on removable media for backup and archive purposes,
   but they may be happy with online backups.

In article <1188416821.708661.44830@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>,  Doug Phillips <dphill46@netscape.net> writes:
> 
> Then it's possible the system doesn't maintain historical data on-line
> (older than some date), but they have archived it to some backup media
> (maybe it's just printed) and purged it from the current data-base.

   From what we know, the hardcopies in the filing cabinets may serve
   both as the historical and backup records.