Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details for 
the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, and 
several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)



-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Bob Eager wrote:
> Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details for 
> the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, and 
> several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)


Did they actually implement kit download capability for hobbyist ? If
this, this would be a major advance/achievement/accomplishement.

On Feb 17, 3:54=A0pm, Bob Eager <news0...@eager.cx> wrote:
> Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details for
> the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, and
> several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)

   You may think that that's useful information, but I
disagree.  You "registered with HP" how?  Where?  For what?
Define "access details"?  Download access secrets?

   How much (redundant) registration is needed to gain access
to the kits associated with hobbyist PAK sets one already has
in hand?  As usual, an actual URL might be more helpful than
a vague news report.

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:19:55 -0800, Steven Schweda wrote:

> On Feb 17, 3:54 pm, Bob Eager <news0...@eager.cx> wrote:
>> Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details for
>> the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, and
>> several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)
> 
>    You may think that that's useful information, but I
> disagree.  You "registered with HP" how?  Where?  For what? Define
> "access details"?  Download access secrets?
> 
>    How much (redundant) registration is needed to gain access
> to the kits associated with hobbyist PAK sets one already has in hand? 
> As usual, an actual URL might be more helpful than a vague news report.

I assumed that anyone who was interested would have seen the details that 
were publicly posted here a few weeks ago. Perhaps you are not so 
interested - there was some discussion so I don't think it was easily 
missed. However, to save you a few seconds' bother, here is the 
registration link:

 http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Hobbyist

That gets you the PAKs you need, and that happened almost instantly. I, 
and others, posted about that at the time.

They have clearly moved on to the next stage, and I received an email 
containing the access details - a link, a username, and a password.




-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:11:29 -0500, JF Mezei wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
>> Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details for
>> the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, and
>> several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)
> 
> 
> Did they actually implement kit download capability for hobbyist ? If
> this, this would be a major advance/achievement/accomplishement.

Basically, yes. I just downloaded a pile of stuff.

BASIC_Compiler_39.zip
C_Compiler_64.zip
COBOL_Compiler_57.zip
CXX_Compiler_56c.zip
Datatrieve_72a2.zip
DCPS_27.zip
DEC-VAXVMS-DECNET_OSI-V0703--1.PCSI-ZIP
DEC-VAXVMS-DWMOTIF-V0102-6-1.PCSI-ZIP
DEC-VAXVMS-TCPIP-V0501-15-1.PCSI-ZIP
DECSET_122a.zip
F77_Compiler_66.zip
Pascal_Compiler_58.zip
unzip.exe
VAXVMS 073 OS ISO.zip
VAXVMS073.ZIP
VMS073LP.ZIP

I was asked in a preceding email which of the architectures I was 
interested in, and I said 'just VAX'. I may have been given other links 
if I'd asked for them.




-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Steven Schweda wrote 2012-02-17 23:19:
> On Feb 17, 3:54 pm, Bob Eager<news0...@eager.cx>  wrote:
>> Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details for
>> the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, and
>> several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)
>
>     You may think that that's useful information, but I
> disagree.  You "registered with HP" how?  Where?  For what?
> Define "access details"?  Download access secrets?
>
>     How much (redundant) registration is needed to gain access
> to the kits associated with hobbyist PAK sets one already has
> in hand?  As usual, an actual URL might be more helpful than
> a vague news report.

I got a mail earlier this eventing containing an anouncement
of downloads of VMS kits.

I was asked to simply reply to the mail if I was missing
download info, so I hit "reply"...

10 min later I got the site/url and login info.
There is ISO images for 8.4 CD and two LP CDs.
Compilers and DECset (ECO1128). Seems to be the latest
of everything. There is also the 8.4 update 5 kit.

Not automated in any way, obviously manualy handled
at the moment.

The mail also said "Please do NOT make this available to others.".
So don't ask. I *guess* this is some temporaly solution.

Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:

(snip)
> 10 min later I got the site/url and login info.
> There is ISO images for 8.4 CD and two LP CDs.
> Compilers and DECset (ECO1128). Seems to be the latest
> of everything. There is also the 8.4 update 5 kit.

> Not automated in any way, obviously manualy handled
> at the moment.

> The mail also said "Please do NOT make this available to others.".
> So don't ask. I *guess* this is some temporaly solution.

Well, everyone is supposed to request their own, seems to
be the idea. Previously there was no request process.
There were the hobbyist CDs, but none for IA64.

It may get automated if the number of requests gets too
high for the manual method, I don't know at all about that.

I am downloading VAX and IA64. Maybe some day I will find
an Alpha, and complete the triad.

-- glen

Expect it to get automated as they go along.

HP had not expected to take this on so quickly, but they should be commende=
d for the professional job they are doing in terms of presenting OpenVMS do=
wnloads, with current patches, to the Hobbyists, as well as the ease of acc=
ess they have implemented so quickly.

I am very happy to see the downloads and the patches become available!

Let us spread the word and continue to support our favorite operating envir=
onment.

Bill.

On 2/17/2012 8:42 PM, BillPedersen wrote:
> Expect it to get automated as they go along.
>
> HP had not expected to take this on so quickly, but they should be
> commended for the professional job they are doing in terms of presenting
> OpenVMS downloads, with current patches, to the Hobbyists, as well as
> the ease of access they have implemented so quickly.
>
> I am very happy to see the downloads and the patches become available!
>
> Let us spread the word and continue to support our favorite operating environment.

The process works perfectly. Easy, fast and no cumbersome procedure.

I am relative sure that the process was designed by the people at the
ground and not designed down through the corporate food chain.

Arne

On Fri, 2012-02-17 at 21:54 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
> Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details for=
=20
> the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, and=
=20
> several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)

As did I, and I am over the moon about it!!
--=20
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On Feb 17, 6:52=A0pm, Bob Eager <news0...@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:11:29 -0500, JF Mezei wrote:
> > Bob Eager wrote:
> >> Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details fo=
r
> >> the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, an=
d
> >> several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)
>
> > Did they actually implement kit download capability for hobbyist ? If
> > this, this would be a major advance/achievement/accomplishement.
>
> Basically, yes. I just downloaded a pile of stuff.
>
> BASIC_Compiler_39.zip
> C_Compiler_64.zip
> COBOL_Compiler_57.zip
> CXX_Compiler_56c.zip
> Datatrieve_72a2.zip
> DCPS_27.zip
> DEC-VAXVMS-DECNET_OSI-V0703--1.PCSI-ZIP
> DEC-VAXVMS-DWMOTIF-V0102-6-1.PCSI-ZIP
> DEC-VAXVMS-TCPIP-V0501-15-1.PCSI-ZIP
> DECSET_122a.zip
> F77_Compiler_66.zip
> Pascal_Compiler_58.zip
> unzip.exe
> VAXVMS 073 OS ISO.zip
> VAXVMS073.ZIP
> VMS073LP.ZIP
>
> I was asked in a preceding email which of the architectures I was
> interested in, and I said 'just VAX'. I may have been given other links
> if I'd asked for them.
>
> --
> Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
> =A0http://www.mirrorservice.org
>
> *lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

I asked for all 3 and got links for all within minutes.  But it was
during regular business hours.

  John H. Reinhardt

On Feb 18, 1:15=A0am, "johnhreinha...@yahoo.com"
<johnhreinha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 17, 6:52=A0pm, Bob Eager <news0...@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:11:29 -0500, JF Mezei wrote:
> > > Bob Eager wrote:
> > >> Having registered with HP recently, today I received access details =
for
> > >> the hobbyist kits. I ask3ed for VAX, and got VMS, layered products, =
and
> > >> several other kits (COBOL, F77, Datatrieve...)
>
> > > Did they actually implement kit download capability for hobbyist ? If
> > > this, this would be a major advance/achievement/accomplishement.
>
> > Basically, yes. I just downloaded a pile of stuff.
>
> > BASIC_Compiler_39.zip
> > C_Compiler_64.zip
> > COBOL_Compiler_57.zip
> > CXX_Compiler_56c.zip
> > Datatrieve_72a2.zip
> > DCPS_27.zip
> > DEC-VAXVMS-DECNET_OSI-V0703--1.PCSI-ZIP
> > DEC-VAXVMS-DWMOTIF-V0102-6-1.PCSI-ZIP
> > DEC-VAXVMS-TCPIP-V0501-15-1.PCSI-ZIP
> > DECSET_122a.zip
> > F77_Compiler_66.zip
> > Pascal_Compiler_58.zip
> > unzip.exe
> > VAXVMS 073 OS ISO.zip
> > VAXVMS073.ZIP
> > VMS073LP.ZIP
>
> > I was asked in a preceding email which of the architectures I was
> > interested in, and I said 'just VAX'. I may have been given other links
> > if I'd asked for them.
>
> > --
> > Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
> > =A0http://www.mirrorservice.org
>
> > *lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor
>
> I asked for all 3 and got links for all within minutes. =A0But it was
> during regular business hours.
>
> =A0 John H. Reinhardt

I also asked about access to patches and was told:

"Update 500 is part of the Alpha and I64 downloads."

Better than nothing, but not exactly what I wanted to hear.

  John H. Reinhardt

In article
<8773865.15.1329529363775.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbas10>,
BillPedersen <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes: 

> I am very happy to see the downloads and the patches become available!

I've been following the discussion here but haven't looked in any detail 
since my currenct licenses have a few months to go.  Also, I had the 
impression things were in transition, so perhaps better to wait until 
things are properly up and running.

But if reasonably current patches are available (especially for the 
latest VMS), then this is great news.  Yes, it takes us back to where we 
used to be, but that's what we all want!  :-)

On 18-2-2012 9:57, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
> I've been following the discussion here but haven't looked in any detail
> since my currenct licenses have a few months to go.  Also, I had the
> impression things were in transition, so perhaps better to wait until
> things are properly up and running.

Same here actually!


> But if reasonably current patches are available (especially for the
> latest VMS), then this is great news.  Yes, it takes us back to where we
> used to be, but that's what we all want!  :-)

I think that's the I64 V8.4 "remastered" (almost like an unofficial
'V8.4-1H1'?) release, which includes Update V5 mainly for more recent
hardware, like the rx2800 i2.  In other words, I'm not so sure if that
same patch will be included with the Alpha version.

  - MG

MG wrote 2012-02-18 12:07:
> On 18-2-2012 9:57, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
>> I've been following the discussion here but haven't looked in any detail
>> since my currenct licenses have a few months to go. Also, I had the
>> impression things were in transition, so perhaps better to wait until
>> things are properly up and running.
>
> Same here actually!
>
>
>> But if reasonably current patches are available (especially for the
>> latest VMS), then this is great news. Yes, it takes us back to where we
>> used to be, but that's what we all want! :-)
>
> I think that's the I64 V8.4 "remastered" (almost like an unofficial
> 'V8.4-1H1'?) release, which includes Update V5 mainly for more recent
> hardware, like the rx2800 i2. In other words, I'm not so sure if that
> same patch will be included with the Alpha version.
>
> - MG

Regarding Alpha, it's a separate ZIP file containing :

VMS84A_UPDATE-V0500.ZIPEXE
VMS84A_PCSI-V0200.ZIPEXE

All files on the Alpha page :

ALPHA084.ISO
ALPHA084LP1.ISO
ALPHA084LP2.ISO
BASIC_Compiler_17.zip
Browser_1112zip.zip
COBOL_Compiler_29.zip
CXX_Compiler_73.zip
C_Compiler_73.zip
DECSETECO1128.zip
Fortran_Compiler_82.zip
openvms_alpha_8_4_Update500.zip

Now I'm glad I upgraded my DSL line to 60 Mb, 15 minutes total
download time for all files above... :-)

I have one question right now, witch TCP/Services is inlcuded?
And is the latest ECO for TCP included (whatever that is)?

Damn that the monthly poker eventing is *today*!
I'd rather spend the afternoon upgrading my DS25... :-)

Jan-Erik.

On Feb 17, 5:47=A0pm, Bob Eager <news0...@eager.cx> wrote:

> However, to save you a few seconds' bother, here is the
> registration link:

   Gosh, thanks, but as I explained before, I already have
the PAKs I need.

> [...] and I received an email
> containing the access details - a link, a username, and a
> password.

   I'm happy for you, but knowing that doesn't obviously help
me.

   If anyone has any _useful_ info on how to get in touch
with the folks distributing the download info, I'd be
interested in it.

On 2/18/2012 10:06 AM, Steven Schweda wrote:
> On Feb 17, 5:47 pm, Bob Eager<news0...@eager.cx>  wrote:
>
>     If anyone has any _useful_ info on how to get in touch
> with the folks distributing the download info, I'd be
> interested in it.

It appears that John Egolf is sending e-mails to everyone that requested 
new keys from openvms.org site requesting that if they need the download 
URL to reply back to him.

-John
wb8tyw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only

John E. Malmberg wrote 2012-02-18 18:38:
> On 2/18/2012 10:06 AM, Steven Schweda wrote:
>> On Feb 17, 5:47 pm, Bob Eager<news0...@eager.cx> wrote:
>>
>> If anyone has any _useful_ info on how to get in touch
>> with the folks distributing the download info, I'd be
>> interested in it.
>
> It appears that John Egolf is sending e-mails to everyone that requested
> new keys from openvms.org site requesting that if they need the download
> URL to reply back to him.
>

Correct. At least for me.


> -John
> wb8tyw@qsl.network
> Personal Opinion Only
>

On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 11:38:29 -0600, John E. Malmberg wrote:

> On 2/18/2012 10:06 AM, Steven Schweda wrote:
>> On Feb 17, 5:47 pm, Bob Eager<news0...@eager.cx>  wrote:
>>
>>     If anyone has any _useful_ info on how to get in touch
>> with the folks distributing the download info, I'd be interested in it.
> 
> It appears that John Egolf is sending e-mails to everyone that requested
> new keys from openvms.org site requesting that if they need the download
> URL to reply back to him.
> 

This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even though 
my current ones last until August.  The email containing the licenses 
contained this sentence:

"Pointer to kit download available upon request via email to me, specify 
hardware platform."

(I got this email yesterday)

-- 
Paul Sture

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:42:43 -0800, BillPedersen wrote:

> Expect it to get automated as they go along.

I got the impression from the time stamps of the acknowledgement and the
license emails arriving yesterday that some human intervention is still
necessary (I'm in Europe, thus several hours ahead of US time).  In fact 
with the number of spambots around nowadays it might not be a bad thing 
to give requests a quick eyeball first.

> HP had not expected to take this on so quickly, but they should be
> commended for the professional job they are doing in terms of presenting
> OpenVMS downloads, with current patches, to the Hobbyists, as well as
> the ease of access they have implemented so quickly.
> 
> I am very happy to see the downloads and the patches become available!

With the reports here and elsewhere of early V8.4 problems I wasn't going 
to touch it without patches.  I'm now looking forward to trying it out.

-- 
Paul Sture

On 2012-02-18 12:53, "Jan-Erik Soderholm" wrote:

> [...]
> 
> Now I'm glad I upgraded my DSL line to 60 Mb, 15 minutes total
> download time for all files above... :-)

That would be equivalent to about 6.5 GB of data and even more if
unzipped later on ...

> [...]

Michael

-- 
Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

On Feb 19, 3:50=A0am, Paul Sture <p...@sture.ch> wrote:

> This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even though
> my current ones last until August. =A0The email containing the licenses
> contained this sentence:

   I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
waste their time that way.

   Just a thought.

Steven Schweda wrote 2012-02-19 15:49:
> On Feb 19, 3:50 am, Paul Sture<p...@sture.ch>  wrote:
>
>> This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even though
>> my current ones last until August.  The email containing the licenses
>> contained this sentence:
>
>     I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
> secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
> waste their time that way.
>
>     Just a thought.

When requesting licenses through the web-page, I think that you will
also get the option to request the download info. Not from the
page itself but later.

Anyway, it can not possible be any secret that it was John Egolf
who supplied the download info, that was mentioned here earlier.

On Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:49:38 AM UTC-5, Steven Schweda wrote:
>=20
>    I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
> secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
> waste their time that way.
>=20
>    Just a thought.

No secrets.  Although I would recommend that you go through the OpenVMS.org=
 web page as that is actually monitored by multiple people and as the proce=
ss gets better defined I would expect John would refer you there anyway.  I=
 do not expect him to be doing the day to day operation for ever.

And so people might know, the distributions that are available are only the=
 most recent for VAX, Alpha and I64.  John has no "library" of distribution=
s if you are looking for something older.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 06:49:38 -0800, Steven Schweda wrote:

> On Feb 19, 3:50 am, Paul Sture <p...@sture.ch> wrote:
> 
>> This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even
>> though my current ones last until August.  The email containing the
>> licenses contained this sentence:
> 
>    I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
> secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
> waste their time that way.
> 
>    Just a thought.

John Egolf in the format of firstname dot lastname at hp dot com

You need to specify which platform(s) you require kits for.

I also note that the download speeds that I am getting are nowhere near 
those reported by Jan-Erik, and after waiting the best part of an hour 
for the first Alpha ISO image to download the web site had timed me out 
so I had to log in again.  Perhaps I would have done better using FTP 
from the command line rather than HTTPS.

-- 
Paul Sture

On 2012-02-19 18:43, "BillPedersen" wrote:

> [...]
> 
> And so people might know, the distributions that are available are
> only the most recent for VAX, Alpha and I64.  John has no "library" of
> distributions if you are looking for something older.

That's a real pity. Hasn't "VMS/Alpha 7.3-2" be declared a "landing
zone", i.e., a version being supported for a very long time?

I'd prefer support for the current and the previous version as well and
for the "long-term supported" versions too. Which would be, with respect
to VAX e.g., versions 5.5-2, 6.2 and 7.3.

Michael

-- 
Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

On Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:03:54 PM UTC-5, Michael Unger wrote:
> That's a real pity. Hasn't "VMS/Alpha 7.3-2" be declared a "landing
> zone", i.e., a version being supported for a very long time?
> 
> I'd prefer support for the current and the previous version as well and
> for the "long-term supported" versions too. Which would be, with respect
> to VAX e.g., versions 5.5-2, 6.2 and 7.3.
> 

Michael, we can make a suggestion that they consider this along the way.  I think we have realize that this has only been in existence for less than a month.  I fully expect we can see it evolve.

Heck how long have we been asking for patches?  And now we can get a kit with patches or a patched kit and we are complaining, still?

Bill.

Michael Unger wrote 2012-02-19 21:03:
> On 2012-02-19 18:43, "BillPedersen" wrote:
>
>> [...]
>>
>> And so people might know, the distributions that are available are
>> only the most recent for VAX, Alpha and I64.  John has no "library" of
>> distributions if you are looking for something older.
>
> That's a real pity. Hasn't "VMS/Alpha 7.3-2" be declared a "landing
> zone", i.e., a version being supported for a very long time?

For VAX yes, for Alpha no. I'm not sure that there is ay
"landing zone" for Alpha yet. And 7.3-2 is probably what you'll
get get if you specify "VAX" as your platform.





>
> I'd prefer support for the current and the previous version as well and
> for the "long-term supported" versions too. Which would be, with respect
> to VAX e.g., versions 5.5-2, 6.2 and 7.3.
>
> Michael
>

Paul Sture wrote 2012-02-19 19:53:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 06:49:38 -0800, Steven Schweda wrote:
>
>> On Feb 19, 3:50 am, Paul Sture<p...@sture.ch>  wrote:
>>
>>> This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even
>>> though my current ones last until August.  The email containing the
>>> licenses contained this sentence:
>>
>>     I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
>> secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
>> waste their time that way.
>>
>>     Just a thought.
>
> John Egolf in the format of firstname dot lastname at hp dot com
>
> You need to specify which platform(s) you require kits for.
>
> I also note that the download speeds that I am getting are nowhere near
> those reported by Jan-Erik, and after waiting the best part of an hour
> for the first Alpha ISO image to download the web site had timed me out
> so I had to log in again.  Perhaps I would have done better using FTP
> from the command line rather than HTTPS.
>

I use the https page/link and I simply right-clicked on each file
and did a "save as...". I use Forefox (the latest) on Win7.

The ALPHA084.ISO was created 12:29:55 and closed 12:46:52. All the other
files was downloaded in parallell within the same timeframe.

I just now tried the Update-5 file again (62 MB) and it took aprox
1.5 min using my home DSL line (aprox 13 Mb/s). Nothing obviouse
wrong there. :-)

I burnt the ALPHA084 ISO on a CD successfully, but the ALPHA084LP1.ISO
had some problem. Hadn't time to investigare further yesterday, might
have been my burn program that simply crashed... :-)

Jan-Erik.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> For VAX yes, for Alpha no. I'm not sure that there is ay
> "landing zone" for Alpha yet. 


My bet would be that 8.3 will be the landing zone for Alpha VMS.

The new team will take a couple of versions for "training" before new
versions are trusted and before they are ready to add compelling new
features that were not started/planned by the original VMS engineering team.

That is, of course, assuming thare are new major versions coming out for
VMS.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 06:49:38 -0800, Steven Schweda wrote:

> On Feb 19, 3:50 am, Paul Sture <p...@sture.ch> wrote:
> 
>> This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even
>> though my current ones last until August.  The email containing the
>> licenses contained this sentence:
> 
>    I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
> secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
> waste their time that way.

Already explained. Register, it's not hard.


-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

JF Mezei wrote 2012-02-19 21:57:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
>> For VAX yes, for Alpha no. I'm not sure that there is ay
>> "landing zone" for Alpha yet.
>
>
> My bet would be that 8.3 will be the landing zone for Alpha VMS.

So 8.4 is only for hobbyists on Alpha?


>
> The new team will take a couple of versions for "training" before new
> versions are trusted and before they are ready to add compelling new
> features that were not started/planned by the original VMS engineering team.
>
> That is, of course, assuming thare are new major versions coming out for
> VMS.

In article
<7967765.297.1329683553739.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbtf25>,
BillPedersen <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes: 

> On Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:03:54 PM UTC-5, Michael Unger wrote:
> > That's a real pity. Hasn't "VMS/Alpha 7.3-2" be declared a "landing
> > zone", i.e., a version being supported for a very long time?
> > 
> > I'd prefer support for the current and the previous version as well and
> > for the "long-term supported" versions too. Which would be, with respect
> > to VAX e.g., versions 5.5-2, 6.2 and 7.3.
> > 
> 
> Michael, we can make a suggestion that they consider this along the way.  I think we have realize that this has only been in existence for less than a month.  I fully expect we can see it evolve.
> 
> Heck how long have we been asking for patches?  And now we can get a kit with patches or a patched kit and we are complaining, still?

I agree.  We shouldn't be too greedy.

In article <jhrmel$i5$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> > That's a real pity. Hasn't "VMS/Alpha 7.3-2" be declared a "landing
> > zone", i.e., a version being supported for a very long time?
> 
> For VAX yes, for Alpha no. I'm not sure that there is ay
> "landing zone" for Alpha yet. And 7.3-2 is probably what you'll
> get get if you specify "VAX" as your platform.

I'm pretty sure 7.3-2 is one of the longer-supported versions.  Also, 
7.3 was the last VAX release.

Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2012-02-19 22:24:
> In article<jhrmel$i5$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  writes:
>
>>> That's a real pity. Hasn't "VMS/Alpha 7.3-2" be declared a "landing
>>> zone", i.e., a version being supported for a very long time?
>>
>> For VAX yes, for Alpha no. I'm not sure that there is ay
>> "landing zone" for Alpha yet. And 7.3-2 is probably what you'll
>> get get if you specify "VAX" as your platform.
>
> I'm pretty sure 7.3-2 is one of the longer-supported versions.  Also,
> 7.3 was the last VAX release.
>

OK. It might be the landing zone for 7.x on Alpha, not for
VMS on Alpha as such (of course).

And, if you don't have any specific software or hardware on Alpha
that prevents you from using 8.x, I don't see why one would
like to run 7.x today.

> [...] And now we can get a kit with patches or a patched
> kit and we are complaining, still?

   You see no possible difference between "a kit with patches
or a patched kit" and access to the patches which I might
need?  Such as patches for an earlier version, for example?


> Already explained. Register, it's not hard.

   And supplying a simple e-mail address _is_ hard?  (Harder
than wasting even more time and space on that reply?)  Which
part of "I already have the PAKs I need" led you to think
that I had _not_ "registered" (several times, in fact).

   A casual observer might imagine that filling in an e-mail
address on all those forms in past years might have left a
trace durable enough to make it easy to get notified when
nifty stuff became available.

> John Egolf in the format of [...]

   Thanks.  Now I can stop trying to get into dental school.

In article <jhrq76$adl$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> OK. It might be the landing zone for 7.x on Alpha, not for
> VMS on Alpha as such (of course).

Right.

> And, if you don't have any specific software or hardware on Alpha
> that prevents you from using 8.x, I don't see why one would
> like to run 7.x today.

Until recently, many hobbyists didn't want to run 8.3 or 8.4 due to lack 
of patch access.  7.3-2 had been around long enough before patch access 
was cut off that one could believe that all the major problems had been 
corrected, which was definitely not the case with 8.4 at the same time.

On 2/19/2012 1:53 PM, Paul Sture wrote:
> I also note that the download speeds that I am getting are nowhere near
> those reported by Jan-Erik, and after waiting the best part of an hour
> for the first Alpha ISO image to download the web site had timed me out
> so I had to log in again.  Perhaps I would have done better using FTP
> from the command line rather than HTTPS.

FTP from FF worked fine for me.

Windows Explorer FTP was very slow.

Arne

BillPedersen <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> wrote:

(snip, someone wrote)
>> I'd prefer support for the current and the previous version as well and
>> for the "long-term supported" versions too. Which would be, with respect
>> to VAX e.g., versions 5.5-2, 6.2 and 7.3.

> Michael, we can make a suggestion that they consider this along 
> the way.  I think we have realize that this has only been in 
> existence for less than a month.  I fully expect we can see 
> it evolve.

It might be that the old method of passing disks between
members still works for the older versions. The hobbyist
license is suppose to work for any version, even 1.0 if
anyone has a copy. (And an 11/780 to run it on.)

Somewhere I have a CD set for an older VAX version,
and also a MicroVAX 2000 which might work best with
an older version.

HP seems to want to control the distribution of the newer
versions, which is fine with me.

-- glen

On Sunday, February 19, 2012 5:03:49 PM UTC-5, Steven Schweda wrote:
> 
>    You see no possible difference between "a kit with patches
> or a patched kit" and access to the patches which I might
> need?  Such as patches for an earlier version, for example?
> 
> 

No doubt there is a difference.  Discuss it with John Egolf.  It can not be solved here.

> 
>    And supplying a simple e-mail address _is_ hard?  (Harder
> than wasting even more time and space on that reply?)  Which
> part of "I already have the PAKs I need" led you to think
> that I had _not_ "registered" (several times, in fact).
> 
>    A casual observer might imagine that filling in an e-mail
> address on all those forms in past years might have left a
> trace durable enough to make it easy to get notified when
> nifty stuff became available.
> 

This is a NEW process.  Prior registrations have, as far as I am aware, not been passed along.  Not that that is a big issue, but I have been told you MUST register on with this new environment to get the URLs and "patches" such as they are as of now.

Look, this is a HUGE difference from where the Hobbyist Program was 15 months ago.  Let's work with it and encourage them.  They have moved quite a bit from the stance presented then.

Bill.

Yes, obviously, the "sharing" of older distributions is very important to the Hobbyist Program and should not be discouraged.  It does protect the history.

Bill.

BillPedersen wrote:
> Yes, obviously, the "sharing" of older distributions is very important to the Hobbyist Program and should not be discouraged.  It does protect the history.


If HP has agreed to let 8.4 downloaded, this is also a big achievement
since the in the past they did not allow Montagar to ship CDs with
current OS software.

On 2012-02-19 21:35, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Michael Unger wrote 2012-02-19 21:03:
>> On 2012-02-19 18:43, "BillPedersen" wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> And so people might know, the distributions that are available are
>>> only the most recent for VAX, Alpha and I64. John has no "library" of
>>> distributions if you are looking for something older.
>>
>> That's a real pity. Hasn't "VMS/Alpha 7.3-2" be declared a "landing
>> zone", i.e., a version being supported for a very long time?
>
> For VAX yes, for Alpha no. I'm not sure that there is ay
> "landing zone" for Alpha yet. And 7.3-2 is probably what you'll
> get get if you specify "VAX" as your platform.

If I remember right, 7.3-2 never came to VAX. The last was 7.3. 7.3-2 
was Alpha only.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

In article <4f41a2bd$0$40399$c3e8da3$3a1a2348@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes: 

> BillPedersen wrote:
> > Yes, obviously, the "sharing" of older distributions is very important to the Hobbyist Program and should not be discouraged.  It does protect the history.
> 
> 
> If HP has agreed to let 8.4 downloaded, this is also a big achievement
> since the in the past they did not allow Montagar to ship CDs with
> current OS software.

Originally, the hobbyist license did not allow the latest version.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:39:50 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> 
> And, if you don't have any specific software or hardware on Alpha that
> prevents you from using 8.x, I don't see why one would like to run 7.x
> today.

7.x would be useful for anyone maintaining freeware.

-- 
Paul Sture

Paul Sture wrote 2012-02-20 09:12:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:39:50 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>
>> And, if you don't have any specific software or hardware on Alpha that
>> prevents you from using 8.x, I don't see why one would like to run 7.x
>> today.
>
> 7.x would be useful for anyone maintaining freeware.
>

That is, historical freeware?
Why not port it to 8.x ?

In article <jhsvm2$igf$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
> Paul Sture wrote 2012-02-20 09:12:
> > On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:39:50 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> >>
> >> And, if you don't have any specific software or hardware on Alpha that
> >> prevents you from using 8.x, I don't see why one would like to run 7.x
> >> today.
> >
> > 7.x would be useful for anyone maintaining freeware.
> >
> 
> That is, historical freeware?
> Why not port it to 8.x ?

Why port it? If it's built on 7.x, shouldn't it run on 8.x too?
Isn't this the compatibility people here have bragged about?

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:28:34 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 2/19/2012 1:53 PM, Paul Sture wrote:
>> I also note that the download speeds that I am getting are nowhere near
>> those reported by Jan-Erik, and after waiting the best part of an hour
>> for the first Alpha ISO image to download the web site had timed me out
>> so I had to log in again.  Perhaps I would have done better using FTP
>> from the command line rather than HTTPS.
> 
> FTP from FF worked fine for me.
> 
> Windows Explorer FTP was very slow.
> 

I suspected that I wasn't the only one downloading at that time.  Other 
connections were giving me up to 3.0 MB/s yesterday.


-- 
Paul Sture

On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:30:14 +0000, Michael Kraemer wrote:

> In article <jhsvm2$igf$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>> Paul Sture wrote 2012-02-20 09:12:
>> > On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:39:50 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> >>
>> >> And, if you don't have any specific software or hardware on Alpha
>> >> that prevents you from using 8.x, I don't see why one would like to
>> >> run 7.x today.
>> >
>> > 7.x would be useful for anyone maintaining freeware.
>> >
>> >
>> That is, historical freeware?
>> Why not port it to 8.x ?
> 
> Why port it? If it's built on 7.x, shouldn't it run on 8.x too? Isn't
> this the compatibility people here have bragged about?

Agreed.  Unless is depends on features only available in 8.x, why 
restrict the audience that can enjoy it?



-- 
Paul Sture

On Feb 20, 2:30=A0am, m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:

> Why port it? If it's built on 7.x, shouldn't it run on 8.x too?
> Isn't this the compatibility people here have bragged about?

   Is that a serious question?  I'd've thought it obvious
that newer OS versions may offer features which are missing
on older OS versions.  Programs built on older OS versions
may be unable to support the features found on newer OS
versions.  Symbolic links (supported in newer versions of
Info-ZIP Zip and UnZip, on newer versions of VMS) are the
first example which leaps to mind.  I doubt that it's the
only such case.

   Welcome to the real world.

In article <6c06bcae-eaa2-4e9a-b670-bf06f27fb99d@vh10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> writes:
>On Feb 20, 2:30=A0am, m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:
>
>> Why port it? If it's built on 7.x, shouldn't it run on 8.x too?
>> Isn't this the compatibility people here have bragged about?
>
>   Is that a serious question?  I'd've thought it obvious
>that newer OS versions may offer features which are missing
>on older OS versions.  Programs built on older OS versions
>may be unable to support the features found on newer OS
>versions.  Symbolic links (supported in newer versions of
>Info-ZIP Zip and UnZip, on newer versions of VMS) are the
>first example which leaps to mind.  I doubt that it's the
>only such case.
>
>   Welcome to the real world.

Or, how about being able to restore multi-dotted filenames when ODS-5 is
the target?

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

On 2012-02-19 21:32, "BillPedersen" wrote:

> Michael, we can make a suggestion that they consider this along the way.  I
> think we have realize that this has only been in existence for less than a
> month.  I fully expect we can see it evolve.
> 
> Heck how long have we been asking for patches?  And now we can get a kit
> with patches or a patched kit and we are complaining, still?

It wasn't meant as a "complaint" but as a suggestion because probably
"mere hobbyists" aren't running the latest software. "Never change a
running system" may be one reason even for professional and commercial
usage.

Michael

-- 
Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

"Jan-Erik Soderholm"  wrote in message 
news:jhrq76$adl$1@news.albasani.net...

>And, if you don't have any specific software or hardware on Alpha
that prevents you from using 8.x, I don't see why one would
like to run 7.x today.

Would you consider a VAX/Alpha cluster as reason not to upgrade? 

Steven Underwood wrote:

> Would you consider a VAX/Alpha cluster as reason not to upgrade? 

Alpha 8.3 coexists nicely with VAX 7.3

7.3 vax even has primitive ability to access ODS-5 disks.

On 2/20/2012 3:19 AM, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Paul Sture wrote 2012-02-20 09:12:
>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:39:50 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>>
>>> And, if you don't have any specific software or hardware on Alpha that
>>> prevents you from using 8.x, I don't see why one would like to run 7.x
>>> today.
>>
>> 7.x would be useful for anyone maintaining freeware.
>
> That is, historical freeware?
> Why not port it to 8.x ?

You want the code to work on multiple VMS versions.

The chance of code developed on V7.x working on V8.x is
a lot better than the other way around.

Arne

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-19 21:48:
> Paul Sture wrote 2012-02-19 19:53:
>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 06:49:38 -0800, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 19, 3:50 am, Paul Sture<p...@sture.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even
>>>> though my current ones last until August. The email containing the
>>>> licenses contained this sentence:
>>>
>>> I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
>>> secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
>>> waste their time that way.
>>>
>>> Just a thought.
>>
>> John Egolf in the format of firstname dot lastname at hp dot com
>>
>> You need to specify which platform(s) you require kits for.
>>
>> I also note that the download speeds that I am getting are nowhere near
>> those reported by Jan-Erik, and after waiting the best part of an hour
>> for the first Alpha ISO image to download the web site had timed me out
>> so I had to log in again. Perhaps I would have done better using FTP
>> from the command line rather than HTTPS.
>>
>
> I use the https page/link and I simply right-clicked on each file
> and did a "save as...". I use Forefox (the latest) on Win7.
>
> The ALPHA084.ISO was created 12:29:55 and closed 12:46:52. All the other
> files was downloaded in parallell within the same timeframe.
>
> I just now tried the Update-5 file again (62 MB) and it took aprox
> 1.5 min using my home DSL line (aprox 13 Mb/s). Nothing obviouse
> wrong there. :-)
>
> I burnt the ALPHA084 ISO on a CD successfully, but the ALPHA084LP1.ISO
> had some problem. Hadn't time to investigare further yesterday, might
> have been my burn program that simply crashed... :-)
>
> Jan-Erik.
>
>
>

A question about the ISO files...

I know that these can be used to burn a regular CD, but it is
possible to read the ISO file in VMS directly ? Or convect/"burn"
them into a format that something like LD can read? If LD can't
read the ISO's directly, that is. I have found no sign of that.

I'm investigating what ways there are to upgrade a system
remotely without having the physical CD mounted in the system
on-site. Like my hobbyist system in-office while I'm at home.

Jan-Erik.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-24 18:30:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-19 21:48:
>> Paul Sture wrote 2012-02-19 19:53:
>>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 06:49:38 -0800, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 19, 3:50 am, Paul Sture<p...@sture.ch> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even
>>>>> though my current ones last until August. The email containing the
>>>>> licenses contained this sentence:
>>>>
>>>> I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
>>>> secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
>>>> waste their time that way.
>>>>
>>>> Just a thought.
>>>
>>> John Egolf in the format of firstname dot lastname at hp dot com
>>>
>>> You need to specify which platform(s) you require kits for.
>>>
>>> I also note that the download speeds that I am getting are nowhere near
>>> those reported by Jan-Erik, and after waiting the best part of an hour
>>> for the first Alpha ISO image to download the web site had timed me out
>>> so I had to log in again. Perhaps I would have done better using FTP
>>> from the command line rather than HTTPS.
>>>
>>
>> I use the https page/link and I simply right-clicked on each file
>> and did a "save as...". I use Forefox (the latest) on Win7.
>>
>> The ALPHA084.ISO was created 12:29:55 and closed 12:46:52. All the other
>> files was downloaded in parallell within the same timeframe.
>>
>> I just now tried the Update-5 file again (62 MB) and it took aprox
>> 1.5 min using my home DSL line (aprox 13 Mb/s). Nothing obviouse
>> wrong there. :-)
>>
>> I burnt the ALPHA084 ISO on a CD successfully, but the ALPHA084LP1.ISO
>> had some problem. Hadn't time to investigare further yesterday, might
>> have been my burn program that simply crashed... :-)
>>
>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>>
>>
>
> A question about the ISO files...
>
> I know that these can be used to burn a regular CD, but it is
> possible to read the ISO file in VMS directly ? Or convect/"burn"
> them into a format that something like LD can read? If LD can't
> read the ISO's directly, that is. I have found no sign of that.
>
> I'm investigating what ways there are to upgrade a system
> remotely without having the physical CD mounted in the system
> on-site. Like my hobbyist system in-office while I'm at home.
>
> Jan-Erik.
>
>

Well Jan-Erik, why not test yourself? :-)

OK, good idea!

Tested with one of the LP ISO's and it mounted OK
using LD CONNECT and MOUNT. Got a warning about some
"missing bytes at the end" or something (my Reflection
session just died so I have not the exact message).

Anyway, the disk seemed to be readable. My FTP session where
I copied the ISO from my laptop hanged at the and, that
might have caused the error when MOUNT'ing the disk.

I'm currently FTP'ing the ISO files fresh directly from
HP to my VMS box and I'll try again whith those files.

Jan-Erik.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-24 19:49:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-24 18:30:
>> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-19 21:48:
>>> Paul Sture wrote 2012-02-19 19:53:
>>>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 06:49:38 -0800, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 19, 3:50 am, Paul Sture<p...@sture.ch> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This thread prompted me to submit a request for new licenses even
>>>>>> though my current ones last until August. The email containing the
>>>>>> licenses contained this sentence:
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that this may sound radical, but if someone would reveal the
>>>>> secret e-mail address for such requests, then others might not need to
>>>>> waste their time that way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a thought.
>>>>
>>>> John Egolf in the format of firstname dot lastname at hp dot com
>>>>
>>>> You need to specify which platform(s) you require kits for.
>>>>
>>>> I also note that the download speeds that I am getting are nowhere near
>>>> those reported by Jan-Erik, and after waiting the best part of an hour
>>>> for the first Alpha ISO image to download the web site had timed me out
>>>> so I had to log in again. Perhaps I would have done better using FTP
>>>> from the command line rather than HTTPS.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I use the https page/link and I simply right-clicked on each file
>>> and did a "save as...". I use Forefox (the latest) on Win7.
>>>
>>> The ALPHA084.ISO was created 12:29:55 and closed 12:46:52. All the other
>>> files was downloaded in parallell within the same timeframe.
>>>
>>> I just now tried the Update-5 file again (62 MB) and it took aprox
>>> 1.5 min using my home DSL line (aprox 13 Mb/s). Nothing obviouse
>>> wrong there. :-)
>>>
>>> I burnt the ALPHA084 ISO on a CD successfully, but the ALPHA084LP1.ISO
>>> had some problem. Hadn't time to investigare further yesterday, might
>>> have been my burn program that simply crashed... :-)
>>>
>>> Jan-Erik.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> A question about the ISO files...
>>
>> I know that these can be used to burn a regular CD, but it is
>> possible to read the ISO file in VMS directly ? Or convect/"burn"
>> them into a format that something like LD can read? If LD can't
>> read the ISO's directly, that is. I have found no sign of that.
>>
>> I'm investigating what ways there are to upgrade a system
>> remotely without having the physical CD mounted in the system
>> on-site. Like my hobbyist system in-office while I'm at home.
>>
>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>>
>
> Well Jan-Erik, why not test yourself? :-)
>
> OK, good idea!
>
> Tested with one of the LP ISO's and it mounted OK
> using LD CONNECT and MOUNT. Got a warning about some
> "missing bytes at the end" or something (my Reflection
> session just died so I have not the exact message).
>
> Anyway, the disk seemed to be readable. My FTP session where
> I copied the ISO from my laptop hanged at the and, that
> might have caused the error when MOUNT'ing the disk.
>
> I'm currently FTP'ing the ISO files fresh directly from
> HP to my VMS box and I'll try again whith those files.
>
> Jan-Erik.
>

OK.
After a new download of the ISO's it worked better.

$ dir

Directory DIST:[084]

ALPHA084.ISO;1            658.69MB  24-FEB-2012 19:31:24.15
ALPHA084LP1.ISO;1         407.85MB  24-FEB-2012 19:59:56.49
ALPHA084LP2.ISO;1         379.46MB  24-FEB-2012 20:16:47.95

Total of 3 files, 1.41GB

$ @ [-]vms_iso_mount.com
$ ld conn dist:[084]ALPHA084.ISO    lda84:
$ ld conn dist:[084]ALPHA084LP1.ISO lda85:
$ ld conn dist:[084]ALPHA084LP2.ISO lda86:
$ mount/ove=ide lda084:
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, ALPHA084 mounted on _$1$LDA84:
$ mount/ove=ide lda085:
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, ALPHA084LP1 mounted on _$1$LDA85:
$ mount/ove=ide lda086:
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, ALPHA084LP2 mounted on _$1$LDA86:

$ ld sh /all
%LD-I-CONNECTED, Connected _$1$LDA84: to DSA100:[DIST.084]ALPHA084.ISO;1
%LD-I-CONNECTED, Connected _$1$LDA85: to DSA100:[DIST.084]ALPHA084LP1.ISO;1
%LD-I-CONNECTED, Connected _$1$LDA86: to DSA100:[DIST.084]ALPHA084LP2.ISO;1

$ sh dev ld

Device        Device        Error    Volume         Free  Trans Mnt
  Name         Status        Count     Label         Space Count Cnt
$1$LDA84:     Mounted alloc     0  ALPHA084       66.10MB     1   1
$1$LDA85:     Mounted alloc     0  ALPHA084LP1     2.72MB     1   1
$1$LDA86:     Mounted alloc     0  ALPHA084LP2     2.73MB     1   1
$

ANALYZE/DISK reports no problem (besides of the quota message).

Next I'll try to backup/image the ALPHA084 volume to an
empty DISK and see if it becomes bootable.

And sorry if this is all wellknown, it is/was not to me.

Jan-Erik.

On 24.02.2012 21:16, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

>>> A question about the ISO files...
>>>
>>> I know that these can be used to burn a regular CD, but it is
>>> possible to read the ISO file in VMS directly ? Or convect/"burn"
>>> them into a format that something like LD can read? If LD can't
>>> read the ISO's directly, that is. I have found no sign of that.
>>>
>>> I'm investigating what ways there are to upgrade a system
>>> remotely without having the physical CD mounted in the system
>>> on-site. Like my hobbyist system in-office while I'm at home.

....

>> Tested with one of the LP ISO's and it mounted OK
>> using LD CONNECT and MOUNT. [...]

[ Test results snipped ]

> And sorry if this is all wellknown, it is/was not to me.

I thought that it should work, but wasn't sure about it, so I
decided not to reply to your initial question.

But I'm sure your results are valuable information for others
who didn't think of mounting the "ISO's" with LD. I wrote
"ISO's" in "" because this ought to be used for CD images that
contain an ISO 9660 (CD) file system, but ISTR that the VMS
CD's were some hybrid format with an additional ODS-2 file system.

What does "sh dev lda85 /full" show as its file system? ODS-2 or
ISO 9660 or similar?

Albrecht

On Feb 24, 7:26 pm, Albrecht Schlosser <vms-n...@go4more.de> wrote:

> [...] I wrote
> "ISO's" in "" because this ought to be used for CD images that
> contain an ISO 9660 (CD) file system [...]

   When I was younger, I would, from time to time, try to persuade
people that "ISO" is a standards organization ("http://iso.org"), not
an
optical-disc file system, and certainly not the _only_ optical-disc
file
system, but my efforts were not universally successful.  It's now too
late to strangle the first person to use ".iso" as a file-name
extension.  (One might as well try to restore "data" and "media" to
their original plural status.  Or, nowadays, "phenomena".  A few
individuals are susceptible to education, but the vast herd seems not
to
be.)

> What does "sh dev lda85 /full" show as its file system? ODS-2 or
> ISO 9660 or similar?

   I'm too lazy to try it, but my money's on ODS-2, just as on the
real
optical disc.

BTW, it is also possible that some "disk images" may in fact be VMS
backup savesets of a BACKUP/IMAGE operation. So you need to unzip the
..SAV and then BACKUP/IMAGE the save set into a disk device (whether real
or via LD driver).

Not sure about current ones. But there were kits like that in the past.

Albrecht Schlosser wrote 2012-02-25 02:26:
> On 24.02.2012 21:16, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
>>>> A question about the ISO files...
>>>>
>>>> I know that these can be used to burn a regular CD, but it is
>>>> possible to read the ISO file in VMS directly ? Or convect/"burn"
>>>> them into a format that something like LD can read? If LD can't
>>>> read the ISO's directly, that is. I have found no sign of that.
>>>>
>>>> I'm investigating what ways there are to upgrade a system
>>>> remotely without having the physical CD mounted in the system
>>>> on-site. Like my hobbyist system in-office while I'm at home.
>
> ...
>
>>> Tested with one of the LP ISO's and it mounted OK
>>> using LD CONNECT and MOUNT. [...]
>
> [ Test results snipped ]
>
>> And sorry if this is all wellknown, it is/was not to me.
>
> I thought that it should work, but wasn't sure about it, so I
> decided not to reply to your initial question.
>
> But I'm sure your results are valuable information for others
> who didn't think of mounting the "ISO's" with LD. I wrote
> "ISO's" in "" because this ought to be used for CD images that
> contain an ISO 9660 (CD) file system, but ISTR that the VMS
> CD's were some hybrid format with an additional ODS-2 file system.
>
> What does "sh dev lda85 /full" show as its file system? ODS-2 or
> ISO 9660 or similar?
>
> Albrecht

ODS-2 :

$ sh dev lda85/fu

Disk $1$LDA85: (OSSBY1), device type Generic SCSI disk, is online,
             allocated, deallocate on dismount, mounted,
             file-oriented device, shareable.

  Error count                 0  Operations completed            2220
  Owner process        "SYSTEM"  Owner UIC                   [SYSTEM]
  Owner process ID     00003933  Dev Prot         S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W
  Reference count             2  Default buffer size              512
  Total blocks           835292  Sectors per track                 30
  Total cylinders           929  Tracks per cylinder               30
  Logical Volume Size    835292  Expansion Size Limit        21000192
  Allocation class            1

  Volume label    "ALPHA084LP1"  Relative volume number             0
  Cluster size                3  Transaction count                  1
  Free blocks              5589  Maximum files allowed         208823
  Extend quantity             5  Mount count                        1
  Mount status          Process  Cache name         "_DSA10:XQPCACHE"
  Extent cache size          64  Maximum blocks in extent cache   558
  File ID cache size         64  Blocks in extent cache             0
  Quota cache size            0  Maximum buffers in FCP cache    1730
  Volume owner UIC    [11,3552]  Vol Prot S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD

  Volume Status:  ODS-2, subject to mount verification, file
       high-water marking, write-back caching enabled.

$

$ d lda85:[dcps_alpha027.doc*]

Directory LDA85:[DCPS_ALPHA027.DOCUMENTATION]

DCPS027_COVER.TXT;1              3   6-AUG-2009 19:38:43.17
DCPS027_CVRLET.PS;1            755  27-MAR-2009 15:48:00.03
DCPS027_IGUIDE.PS;1            477  27-MAR-2009 21:10:55.57
DCPS027_IGUIDE.TXT;1           218  27-MAR-2009 21:11:03.29
DCPS027_REL_NOTES.TXT;1        153   6-AUG-2009 19:39:05.78

Total of 5 files, 1606 blocks.
$

On Feb 24, 9:16=A0pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:

> Next I'll try to backup/image the ALPHA084 volume to an
> empty DISK and see if it becomes bootable.

$ mount/for <target-disk>
$ copy ALPHA084.ISO <target-disk>

is all you need. Sure, the target disk needs to be at least as big as
the .ISO file. You sort of waste the reminder of the disk, but just
for booting and installing it doesn't matter. I used this mechanism
for all the installation CD images I got: VMS, Debian, Gentoo and
Tru64 on Alpha. It also worked on Integrity, here you have to boot
from the EFI shell.

hb wrote 2012-02-25 12:05:
> On Feb 24, 9:16 pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Next I'll try to backup/image the ALPHA084 volume to an
>> empty DISK and see if it becomes bootable.
>
> $ mount/for<target-disk>
> $ copy ALPHA084.ISO<target-disk>
>

I have now upgraded my hobbyist DS25 from 8.3 to 8.4.
I copied the ISO as described above to a spare disk
and run the usual de-shadow/upgrade procedure.

Added the UPDATE 5 patch and the latest TCPIP.

Everything is fine so far... :-)

Jan-Erik.

 Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-19 21:48:
>
> I burnt the ALPHA084 ISO on a CD successfully, but the ALPHA084LP1.ISO
> had some problem. Hadn't time to investigare further yesterday, might
> have been my burn program that simply crashed... :-)
>
> Jan-Erik.
>

   The ALPHA084 ISO I downloaded is too big for my CD-R.  Do I need to
   get a larger CD-R (are there such things now)?

   I'm thinking of trying it on a DVD-R, but first I have to see if my
   drives can read DVDs.

Bob Koehler wrote 2012-02-28 15:32:
>   Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-19 21:48:
>>
>> I burnt the ALPHA084 ISO on a CD successfully, but the ALPHA084LP1.ISO
>> had some problem. Hadn't time to investigare further yesterday, might
>> have been my burn program that simply crashed... :-)
>>
>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>
>     The ALPHA084 ISO I downloaded is too big for my CD-R.  Do I need to
>     get a larger CD-R (are there such things now)?
>
>     I'm thinking of trying it on a DVD-R, but first I have to see if my
>     drives can read DVDs.
>

I used a CD-R from "FUJIFILM" marked "700MB".

But I never used the CD, I copied the ISO directly to a normal
DKAxxx disk (mounted /FOR) and booted that instead of the CD.

Jan-Erik.

In article <jiirmc$444$2@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
> 
> I used a CD-R from "FUJIFILM" marked "700MB".
> 
> But I never used the CD, I copied the ISO directly to a normal
> DKAxxx disk (mounted /FOR) and booted that instead of the CD.

   Aha.  The ones I have at home are 650MB.  But the ones I brought to
   work are 700MB, so I'll take one home.

   I don't have a spare spindle, but if it comes down to that I could
   save one on tape for a bit.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 08:32:30 -0600, Bob Koehler wrote:

> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote 2012-02-19 21:48:
>>
>> I burnt the ALPHA084 ISO on a CD successfully, but the ALPHA084LP1.ISO
>> had some problem. Hadn't time to investigare further yesterday, might
>> have been my burn program that simply crashed... :-)
>>
>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>>
>    The ALPHA084 ISO I downloaded is too big for my CD-R.  Do I need to
>    get a larger CD-R (are there such things now)?
> 
>    I'm thinking of trying it on a DVD-R, but first I have to see if my
>    drives can read DVDs.

As reported by Windows:

 690,690,048 ALPHA084.ISO

or from Explorer:

 674,502 KB

which by my reckoning comes to 658 MB. That's not going to fit on
a 650 MB CD

The latest CD-R discs I bought were 700 MB

-- 
Paul Sture

> 690,690,048 ALPHA084.ISO

   The thing I got a while ago seems to be similar:

Directory DKB300:[v8r4]

ALPHA084.IMG;1       1367588  13-AUG-2010 21:34:32.69
ALPHA084LP1.BCK;1     779625  14-AUG-2010 02:21:20.63
ALPHA084LP2.BCK;1     715554  14-AUG-2010 03:03:52.32

And 1367588 blocks seems to round up to about 668MB.  All the
CD-R blanks in my collection seem to have a 700MB capacity,
so I didn't have any problem making a disc, and didn't think
any more about it.  It's always nice to hear that someone's
old junk collection has worse old junk than mine.


> I'm thinking of trying it on a DVD-R, but first I have to
> see if my drives can read DVDs.

   I'd save the DVDs for IA64 kits, where they'll really be
needed.

On Feb 28, 3:35=A0pm, Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 690,690,048 ALPHA084.ISO
>
> =A0 =A0The thing I got a while ago seems to be similar:
>
> Directory DKB300:[v8r4]
>
> ALPHA084.IMG;1 =A0 =A0 =A0 1367588 =A013-AUG-2010 21:34:32.69
> ALPHA084LP1.BCK;1 =A0 =A0 779625 =A014-AUG-2010 02:21:20.63
> ALPHA084LP2.BCK;1 =A0 =A0 715554 =A014-AUG-2010 03:03:52.32
>
> And 1367588 blocks seems to round up to about 668MB. =A0All the
> CD-R blanks in my collection seem to have a 700MB capacity,
> so I didn't have any problem making a disc, and didn't think
> any more about it. =A0It's always nice to hear that someone's
> old junk collection has worse old junk than mine.
>
> > I'm thinking of trying it on a DVD-R, but first I have to
> > see if my drives can read DVDs.
>
> =A0 =A0I'd save the DVDs for IA64 kits, where they'll really be
> needed.

Actually I like the 'old junk' 650MB disks; they're guaranteed to work
in even older CD-R capable drives that can get finicky with the bigger
disks, they were made before the total commoditized economizing of
manufacture of the blanks, and often with better quality/longer
lasting dye/substrate materials.  The blue-dye Sony and gold-dye Kodak
(which were made by an OEM who had a rep for making the best quality
disks back then) are likely to remain viable and readable quite a bit
longer than the cheap silver-dye chinese 52X wunderdisks available
now.

I save my few remaining 8x and 16x blue Sony's for special photo or
other archives I expect to last more than a few years in even
protected storage.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:43:21 -0800, Rich Jordan wrote:

> On Feb 28, 3:35 pm, Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 690,690,048 ALPHA084.ISO
>>
>>    The thing I got a while ago seems to be similar:
>>
>> Directory DKB300:[v8r4]
>>
>> ALPHA084.IMG;1       1367588  13-AUG-2010 21:34:32.69 ALPHA084LP1.BCK;1
>>     779625  14-AUG-2010 02:21:20.63 ALPHA084LP2.BCK;1     715554
>>  14-AUG-2010 03:03:52.32
>>
>> And 1367588 blocks seems to round up to about 668MB.  All the CD-R
>> blanks in my collection seem to have a 700MB capacity, so I didn't have
>> any problem making a disc, and didn't think any more about it.  It's
>> always nice to hear that someone's old junk collection has worse old
>> junk than mine.
>>
>> > I'm thinking of trying it on a DVD-R, but first I have to see if my
>> > drives can read DVDs.
>>
>>    I'd save the DVDs for IA64 kits, where they'll really be
>> needed.
> 
> Actually I like the 'old junk' 650MB disks; they're guaranteed to work
> in even older CD-R capable drives that can get finicky with the bigger
> disks, they were made before the total commoditized economizing of
> manufacture of the blanks, and often with better quality/longer lasting
> dye/substrate materials.  The blue-dye Sony and gold-dye Kodak (which
> were made by an OEM who had a rep for making the best quality disks back
> then) are likely to remain viable and readable quite a bit longer than
> the cheap silver-dye chinese 52X wunderdisks available now.
> 
> I save my few remaining 8x and 16x blue Sony's for special photo or
> other archives I expect to last more than a few years in even protected
> storage.

One pronlem is that even using a particular make doesn't guarantee 
consistency. I've had really good TDK disks - and really bad ones, with a 
completely different dye.

The dye is the key - and I have always been told - and believe - that 
Taiyo Yuden is a very good bet. You have to have a supplier who can tell 
you that. Various software will read out the dye type off a sample disc.



-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article <160a3842-849d-4013-8983-2d11fb9079a4@em9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, Rich Jordan <jordan@ccs4vms.com> writes:
> 
> Actually I like the 'old junk' 650MB disks; they're guaranteed to work
> in even older CD-R capable drives that can get finicky with the bigger
> disks, they were made before the total commoditized economizing of
> manufacture of the blanks, and often with better quality/longer
> lasting dye/substrate materials.  The blue-dye Sony and gold-dye Kodak
> (which were made by an OEM who had a rep for making the best quality
> disks back then) are likely to remain viable and readable quite a bit
> longer than the cheap silver-dye chinese 52X wunderdisks available
> now.

   Well, I've got the image loaded on a 700 MB CD-R now and that's
   working.  But the old drives on my first Alpha won't read any of the
   CD-R written by my new Mac.  It did read CD-R written by my old Mac.

   My second Alpha can read the drive, so I've set up MOP to boot the
   first Alpha, but I haven't got Infoserver services working yet.
   When I do, I'll start a long overdue upgrade.

Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:

(snip on CD-R size)

>   Well, I've got the image loaded on a 700 MB CD-R now and that's
>   working.  But the old drives on my first Alpha won't read any of the
>   CD-R written by my new Mac.  It did read CD-R written by my old Mac.

>   My second Alpha can read the drive, so I've set up MOP to boot the
>   first Alpha, but I haven't got Infoserver services working yet.
>   When I do, I'll start a long overdue upgrade.

Someone once sent me an 800MB CD-R and I had a hard time finding
drives that would read it. That was from Korea, I never saw a
blank one in a US store, though sometimes I would have liked
to have one. (They store 90 minutes of CD music.)

-- glen

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:51:46 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

> One pronlem is that even using a particular make doesn't guarantee
> consistency. I've had really good TDK disks - and really bad ones, with
> a completely different dye.
> 
> The dye is the key - and I have always been told - and believe - that
> Taiyo Yuden is a very good bet. You have to have a supplier who can tell
> you that. Various software will read out the dye type off a sample disc.

I took some advice from some posts on the Mac newsgroups several years 
ago and I had a good run with a specific type of Verbatim discs. I cannot 
remember what the name was now, but couldn't find them the last time I 
looked.

However I use them seldom nowadays. I use virtual machines wherever 
possible, and that means you don't need to burn so many discs.



-- 
Paul Sture

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 07:55:11 -0600, Bob Koehler wrote:

> In article
> <160a3842-849d-4013-8983-2d11fb9079a4@em9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> Rich Jordan <jordan@ccs4vms.com> writes:
>> 
>> Actually I like the 'old junk' 650MB disks; they're guaranteed to work
>> in even older CD-R capable drives that can get finicky with the bigger
>> disks, they were made before the total commoditized economizing of
>> manufacture of the blanks, and often with better quality/longer lasting
>> dye/substrate materials.  The blue-dye Sony and gold-dye Kodak (which
>> were made by an OEM who had a rep for making the best quality disks
>> back then) are likely to remain viable and readable quite a bit longer
>> than the cheap silver-dye chinese 52X wunderdisks available now.
> 
>    Well, I've got the image loaded on a 700 MB CD-R now and that's
>    working.  But the old drives on my first Alpha won't read any of the
>    CD-R written by my new Mac.  It did read CD-R written by my old Mac.
> 
>    My second Alpha can read the drive, so I've set up MOP to boot the
>    first Alpha, but I haven't got Infoserver services working yet. When
>    I do, I'll start a long overdue upgrade.

VAXman has the instructions to set up an Infoserver on his site. It's an 
interesting read anyway, even if you don't need the instructions.

http://tmesis.org/?e=40



-- 
Paul Sture

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> I was asked to simply reply to the mail if I was missing
> download info, so I hit "reply"...
> 
> 10 min later I got the site/url and login info.
> There is ISO images for 8.4 CD and two LP CDs.
> Compilers and DECset (ECO1128). Seems to be the latest
> of everything. There is also the 8.4 update 5 kit.
> 
> Not automated in any way, obviously manualy handled
> at the moment.
> 
> The mail also said "Please do NOT make this available to others.".
> So don't ask. I *guess* this is some temporaly solution.


There can be good reasons for not sharing.  Say that one person got the distribution, and 
shared it with everyone else.  You might have people at HP saying to themselves "we did 
all this for one person??"

Another thought is, the more requests they get, the more importance they might assign to 
the hobbyist program.  Or not, maybe someone would say "we should be able to make money 
off this".  Yeah, I'm a pessimist.

On Mar 5, 10:49=A0pm, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> > I was asked to simply reply to the mail if I was missing
> > download info, so I hit "reply"...
>
> > 10 min later I got the site/url and login info.
> > There is ISO images for 8.4 CD and two LP CDs.
> > Compilers and DECset (ECO1128). Seems to be the latest
> > of everything. There is also the 8.4 update 5 kit.
>
> > Not automated in any way, obviously manualy handled
> > at the moment.
>
> > The mail also said "Please do NOT make this available to others.".
> > So don't ask. I *guess* this is some temporaly solution.
>
> There can be good reasons for not sharing. =A0Say that one person got the=
 distribution, and
> shared it with everyone else. =A0You might have people at HP saying to th=
emselves "we did
> all this for one person??"
>
> Another thought is, the more requests they get, the more importance they =
might assign to
> the hobbyist program. =A0Or not, maybe someone would say "we should be ab=
le to make money
> off this". =A0Yeah, I'm a pessimist.

There are other ways of finding out who's actually using your software
which are rather more reliable (for various reasons) than just
tracking who's downloaded the kits. You could have some kind of
individually tracked freely renewable licence key that runs out every
couple of years, for example. Hey wait...

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:49:54 -0500, David Froble wrote:

> There can be good reasons for not sharing.  Say that one person got the
> distribution, and shared it with everyone else.  You might have people
> at HP saying to themselves "we did all this for one person??"
> 
> Another thought is, the more requests they get, the more importance they
> might assign to the hobbyist program.  Or not, maybe someone would say
> "we should be able to make money off this".  Yeah, I'm a pessimist.

Agreed.  It's important that HP see some numbers here.

Nice to see you here again David.  How's it going?

-- 
Paul Sture

Paul Sture wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:49:54 -0500, David Froble wrote:
> 
>> There can be good reasons for not sharing.  Say that one person got the
>> distribution, and shared it with everyone else.  You might have people
>> at HP saying to themselves "we did all this for one person??"
>>
>> Another thought is, the more requests they get, the more importance they
>> might assign to the hobbyist program.  Or not, maybe someone would say
>> "we should be able to make money off this".  Yeah, I'm a pessimist.
> 
> Agreed.  It's important that HP see some numbers here.
> 
> Nice to see you here again David.  How's it going?
> 

Now, that's a tough question, even though it seems simple.

5-6 years ago I quit, cold turkey, when I realized that c.o.v was eating up my entire 
life.  I'm hoping that I've learned moderation, and that I can participate in a rational 
manner.  We'll see.

Still doing VMS stuff, still got more electrical heaters running than one person needs.  I 
guess that problem will be even harder to solve.

Thanks for asking ....

In article <4f416236$0$2268$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
>> For VAX yes, for Alpha no. I'm not sure that there is ay
>> "landing zone" for Alpha yet. 
>
>My bet would be that 8.3 will be the landing zone for Alpha VMS.

I don't understand why people still insists on V8.3

V8.4 is out since 2010 and support for V8.3 is ending 2013.
So, it would be 8.4 or more likely a later VMS version..

-- 
Peter "EPLAN" LANGST�GER
Network and OpenVMS system specialist
E-mail  Peter@LANGSTOeGER.at
A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist

Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote:

> I don't understand why people still insists on V8.3
> 
> V8.4 is out since 2010 and support for V8.3 is ending 2013.

Have they finished fixing all the bugs from 8.4 ?  Mr VAXman keeps
finding some doozies.

Does anyone really trust 8.4 ?

JF Mezei wrote 2012-03-11 22:28:
> Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote:
>
>> I don't understand why people still insists on V8.3
>>
>> V8.4 is out since 2010 and support for V8.3 is ending 2013.
>
> Have they finished fixing all the bugs from 8.4 ?  Mr VAXman keeps
> finding some doozies.
>
> Does anyone really trust 8.4 ?

I have asked in other forums and got replies from a couple of
high profile VMS sites that runs 8.4. My view from metting with
people from a number of Swedish VMS sites is that most of them
has been on 8.4 for some time now.

How many larger VMS sites have you asked yourself?
Anyone at all?

I will upgrade my main customer to 8.4 (on Alpha) as soon as
there is time this spring.

On 3/11/2012 3:28 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
> Have they finished fixing all the bugs from 8.4 ?

There have already been 6 of the periodic UPDATE ECO kits issued for 8.4 
since its release back in June of 2010.

For most customers, it is more risky to remain on 8.3 at this point than 
to upgrade to 8.4. There are also some performance improvements that can 
be beneficial.