Pretty much says just how much HP values OpenVMS and those who program
on it.  If you are interested in working for far less than half of
market rate feel free to apply.

http://www.corp-corp.com/JS/JS_view_job.aspx?js=535954

seasoned_geek wrote:
> Pretty much says just how much HP values OpenVMS and those who program
> on it.  If you are interested in working for far less than half of
> market rate feel free to apply.
> 
> http://www.corp-corp.com/JS/JS_view_job.aspx?js=535954

That works out to about $52,000 per year before taxes.  I suspect that 
there are people who will jump on it.  It's not up to the standards of 
five or ten years ago but it will pay a lot of bills!

On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 at 13:23 -0500, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

>
>
> seasoned_geek wrote:
>> Pretty much says just how much HP values OpenVMS and those who 
>> program on it.  If you are interested in working for far less than 
>> half of market rate feel free to apply.
>> 
>> http://www.corp-corp.com/JS/JS_view_job.aspx?js=535954
>
> That works out to about $52,000 per year before taxes.  I suspect 
> that there are people who will jump on it.  It's not up to the 
> standards of five or ten years ago but it will pay a lot of bills!
>

I viewed the website and did not see anything about $55/hour.

But around here, there are about 2000 working hours per year, making 
$55/hour about $110,000 before taxes.

-- 

Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m
G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (780)438-9343 (voice)
Edmonton                         (780)437-3367 (FAX)
                                  http://gmcl.com/

In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.0911241248380.10887@libra.gmcl.internal>, Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes:
>On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 at 13:23 -0500, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> seasoned_geek wrote:
>>> Pretty much says just how much HP values OpenVMS and those who 
>>> program on it.  If you are interested in working for far less than 
>>> half of market rate feel free to apply.
>>> 
>>> http://www.corp-corp.com/JS/JS_view_job.aspx?js=535954
>>
>> That works out to about $52,000 per year before taxes.  I suspect 
>> that there are people who will jump on it.  It's not up to the 
>> standards of five or ten years ago but it will pay a lot of bills!
>>
>
>I viewed the website and did not see anything about $55/hour.
>
>But around here, there are about 2000 working hours per year, making 
>$55/hour about $110,000 before taxes.

Full-time 40 hour week is 2080 hours.  I usually guestimate using your
2000  hour figure.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

On Nov 24, 2:58=A0pm, Rob Brown <mylastn...@gmcl.com> wrote:
> But around here, there are about 2000 working hours per year, making
> $55/hour about $110,000 before taxes.

There are different schools of thought on how to equate an hourly
contract rate to an equivalent salary.  Some say you take the hourly
rate and multiply by 1000.  Others take the 40-hours-per-week times 52-
weeks-per-year route (which you have done).  Yet others come up with
something in between.

When I worked for Digital "back in the day", we would receive a
compensation summary that included salary, paid sick time, paid
vacation, benefits, etcetera.  After adding it all up they would say
that the bottom line number represented the total compensation for the
job.  It was a lot more than just the base salary.

So, when trying to equate hourly rate as a contractor to an equivalent
salary as an employee there are other factors that need to be
addressed.  How you choose to address them is up to you, I suppose.

In article <fP2dnYVcj4exuZHWnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> seasoned_geek wrote:
>> Pretty much says just how much HP values OpenVMS and those who program
>> on it.  If you are interested in working for far less than half of
>> market rate feel free to apply.
>> 
>> http://www.corp-corp.com/JS/JS_view_job.aspx?js=535954
> 
> That works out to about $52,000 per year before taxes.  I suspect that 
> there are people who will jump on it.  It's not up to the standards of 
> five or ten years ago but it will pay a lot of bills!

Your joking, right?  52K in California wasn't enough to live under
a bridge when I used to travel out there on business and that was
over 25 years ago.  I think the lease on a cardboard box out there
starts at $1500/month.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On Nov 24, 3:20=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>
> Your joking, right? =A052K in California wasn't enough to live under
> a bridge when I used to travel out there on business and that was
> over 25 years ago. =A0I think the lease on a cardboard box out there
> starts at $1500/month.
>

If you can force yourself into a "studio" at a place like Oakwood,
mashed into a building with terrorists crammed 8 deep to a room, you
can find corporate housing for $5500/month.  A one bedroom from a
corporate housing company which won't let body slammers stack vacation
visa workers 8 deep to a room start at $6500/month (at least two
months ago when I last checked).

Let us not forget that you will also be paying income tax in two
states.

55*2000 =3D 110,000
6500*12 =3D 78,000
net   32,000 before taxes

I hope you don't eat much or have a mortgage where you currently live.

Oh, don't worry, you won't make much more if you happen to find an
Oakwood which hasn't been overrun by vacation visa workers stacked 8
deep to a room.

55*2000 =3D 110,000
5500*12 =3D 66,000
net 44,000 before taxes

In the midwest, where the cost of living is comparatively low,
standard billing rates for OpenVMS people are 75-90/hr without
specialized skills like ACMS and Web service calls.  Standard rates
for those same people are 110-148/hr in CA due to the massive increase
in cost of living.  Here in IL, corporate housing around Chicago (the
highest we have) is roughly $3000/month.  The highest end is $3500/
month.

75*2000 =3D 150,000
3500 * 12 =3D 42,000
net  108,000 before taxes.

seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Nov 24, 3:20 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> Your joking, right?  52K in California wasn't enough to live under
>> a bridge when I used to travel out there on business and that was
>> over 25 years ago.  I think the lease on a cardboard box out there
>> starts at $1500/month.
>>
> 
> If you can force yourself into a "studio" at a place like Oakwood,
> mashed into a building with terrorists crammed 8 deep to a room, you
> can find corporate housing for $5500/month.  A one bedroom from a
> corporate housing company which won't let body slammers stack vacation
> visa workers 8 deep to a room start at $6500/month (at least two
> months ago when I last checked).
> 
> Let us not forget that you will also be paying income tax in two
> states.
> 
> 55*2000 = 110,000
> 6500*12 = 78,000
> net   32,000 before taxes
> 
> I hope you don't eat much or have a mortgage where you currently live.
> 
> Oh, don't worry, you won't make much more if you happen to find an
> Oakwood which hasn't been overrun by vacation visa workers stacked 8
> deep to a room.
> 
> 55*2000 = 110,000
> 5500*12 = 66,000
> net 44,000 before taxes
> 
> In the midwest, where the cost of living is comparatively low,
> standard billing rates for OpenVMS people are 75-90/hr without
> specialized skills like ACMS and Web service calls.  Standard rates
> for those same people are 110-148/hr in CA due to the massive increase
> in cost of living.  Here in IL, corporate housing around Chicago (the
> highest we have) is roughly $3000/month.  The highest end is $3500/
> month.
> 
> 75*2000 = 150,000
> 3500 * 12 = 42,000
> net  108,000 before taxes.
> 

This "OpenVMS Senior Architect in Irvine" job pops up every three to six 
months.  Anybody have an idea of what company this is?

I had a recruiter call me about this the other day (obviously from 
India, and not too keen on English) and they said it would be working 
for HP.  So, my guess is that CompanyX outsourced to HP, who then 
outsourced to BillyBangaloreBarginPlacements.  They offer $50/hr, which 
means BBBP is probably getting $75, and HP is getting $100/hr.

It is only a 2-3 month contract, btw.

On Dec 1, 12:27=A0pm, Marty Kuhrt <ma...@spamloop.kuhrt.net> wrote:
> They offer $50/hr, which
> means BBBP is probably getting $75, and HP is getting $100/hr.
>

I vaguely remember HP's list price is something like $250+/hr for
consulting services.  I think I saw $150/hr from them on a NY State
contract.  It would be really unusual if they were only charging $100/
hr.

And certainly, the more middlemen there are then the lower the rate
which will be offered to you.

On Dec 1, 1:02=A0pm, FrankS <sapie...@noesys.com> wrote:
> On Dec 1, 12:27=A0pm, Marty Kuhrt <ma...@spamloop.kuhrt.net> wrote:
>
> > They offer $50/hr, which
> > means BBBP is probably getting $75, and HP is getting $100/hr.
>
> I vaguely remember HP's list price is something like $250+/hr for
> consulting services. =A0I think I saw $150/hr from them on a NY State
> contract. =A0It would be really unusual if they were only charging $100/
> hr.
>
> And certainly, the more middlemen there are then the lower the rate
> which will be offered to you.

Lest you forget, not only does HP have the bottom feeder OS of the
industry (UX), it purchased the absolute bottom feeder in consulting
services EDS.  This is a company which specialized in bringing workers
over on tourist visas and paying them through an off-shore entity.

This is the same billing rate Verizon Wireless sends out for _all_ of
its IT positions no matter what location in the country.  Every 6-8
weeks there is another rash of non-English speaking "agents" who are
all on the Addeco vendor mangling system calling the same 30 people
across the country and finding out the billing rate they have to offer
is less than 1/3 market rate.  Since Verizon has both government and
military contracts (same as HP) it is actually a federal crime to pay
less than prevailing wage as determined by the DOL.

In article <j9adnfhzyptlzIjWnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
 Marty Kuhrt <marty@spamloop.kuhrt.net> wrote:

> seasoned_geek wrote:
> > On Nov 24, 3:20 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> Your joking, right?  52K in California wasn't enough to live under
> >> a bridge when I used to travel out there on business and that was
> >> over 25 years ago.  I think the lease on a cardboard box out there
> >> starts at $1500/month.
> >>
> > 
> > If you can force yourself into a "studio" at a place like Oakwood,
> > mashed into a building with terrorists crammed 8 deep to a room, you
> > can find corporate housing for $5500/month.  A one bedroom from a
> > corporate housing company which won't let body slammers stack vacation
> > visa workers 8 deep to a room start at $6500/month (at least two
> > months ago when I last checked).
> > 
> > Let us not forget that you will also be paying income tax in two
> > states.
> > 
> > 55*2000 = 110,000
> > 6500*12 = 78,000
> > net   32,000 before taxes
> > 
> > I hope you don't eat much or have a mortgage where you currently live.
> > 
> > Oh, don't worry, you won't make much more if you happen to find an
> > Oakwood which hasn't been overrun by vacation visa workers stacked 8
> > deep to a room.
> > 
> > 55*2000 = 110,000
> > 5500*12 = 66,000
> > net 44,000 before taxes
> > 
> > In the midwest, where the cost of living is comparatively low,
> > standard billing rates for OpenVMS people are 75-90/hr without
> > specialized skills like ACMS and Web service calls.  Standard rates
> > for those same people are 110-148/hr in CA due to the massive increase
> > in cost of living.  Here in IL, corporate housing around Chicago (the
> > highest we have) is roughly $3000/month.  The highest end is $3500/
> > month.
> > 
> > 75*2000 = 150,000
> > 3500 * 12 = 42,000
> > net  108,000 before taxes.
> > 
> 
> This "OpenVMS Senior Architect in Irvine" job pops up every three to six 
> months.  Anybody have an idea of what company this is?
> 
> I had a recruiter call me about this the other day (obviously from 
> India, and not too keen on English) and they said it would be working 
> for HP.  So, my guess is that CompanyX outsourced to HP, who then 
> outsourced to BillyBangaloreBarginPlacements.  They offer $50/hr, which 
> means BBBP is probably getting $75, and HP is getting $100/hr.
> 
> It is only a 2-3 month contract, btw.

Its quite possible that HP are getting closer to $200/hr.

-- 
Paul Sture

Paul Sture wrote:
> 
> Its quite possible that HP are getting closer to $200/hr.
> 

That still begs the original question...

This "OpenVMS Senior Architect in Irvine" job pops up every three to six 
months.  Anybody have an idea of what company this is?

Marty Kuhrt wrote:
> Paul Sture wrote:
>>
>> Its quite possible that HP are getting closer to $200/hr.
>>
> 
> That still begs the original question...
> 
> This "OpenVMS Senior Architect in Irvine" job pops up every three to six 
> months.  Anybody have an idea of what company this is?

No!  But regardless of what company, I'm not willing to move to CA for 
three to six months.  It sure as hell looks as if either the job or the 
employer is impossible!

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Marty Kuhrt wrote:
>> Paul Sture wrote:
>>>
>>> Its quite possible that HP are getting closer to $200/hr.
>>>
>>
>> That still begs the original question...
>>
>> This "OpenVMS Senior Architect in Irvine" job pops up every three to 
>> six months.  Anybody have an idea of what company this is?
> 
> No!  But regardless of what company, I'm not willing to move to CA for 
> three to six months.  It sure as hell looks as if either the job or the 
> employer is impossible!

I live in California, now.  I have a place to stay near Irvine for free.

Marty Kuhrt wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Marty Kuhrt wrote:
>>> Paul Sture wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Its quite possible that HP are getting closer to $200/hr.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That still begs the original question...
>>>
>>> This "OpenVMS Senior Architect in Irvine" job pops up every three to 
>>> six months.  Anybody have an idea of what company this is?
>>
>> No!  But regardless of what company, I'm not willing to move to CA for 
>> three to six months.  It sure as hell looks as if either the job or 
>> the employer is impossible!
> 
> I live in California, now.  I have a place to stay near Irvine for free.

Then you are in an excellent position to find out "what company".  Do 
let us know!

On Dec 3, 6:18=A0pm, Marty Kuhrt <ma...@spamloop.kuhrt.net> wrote:
>
> I live in California, now. =A0I have a place to stay near Irvine for free=
..

Are you sleeping under a viaduct?

free and California are not compatible terms.

seasoned_geek wrote:

>> I live in California, now.  I have a place to stay near Irvine for free.
> 
> Are you sleeping under a viaduct?
> 
> free and California are not compatible terms.


He could be Carly Fiorina's pool cleaner or hairdresser, with ability to
stay in the staff house next to Carly's mansion :-)

In article <9283c625-e624-4ccf-a036-40155b3d56f2@r40g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, seasoned_geek <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
>On Dec 3, 6:18=A0pm, Marty Kuhrt <ma...@spamloop.kuhrt.net> wrote:
>>
>> I live in California, now. =A0I have a place to stay near Irvine for free=
>.
>
>Are you sleeping under a viaduct?
>
>free and California are not compatible terms.

Sure they are, if you happen to have family or close friends with spare space
near where you need to be. 

-- Alan

"Richard B. Gilbert" wrote:
> 
> seasoned_geek wrote:
> > Pretty much says just how much HP values OpenVMS and those who program
> > on it.  If you are interested in working for far less than half of
> > market rate feel free to apply.
> >
> > http://www.corp-corp.com/JS/JS_view_job.aspx?js=535954
> 
> That works out to about $52,000 per year before taxes.  I suspect that
> there are people who will jump on it.  It's not up to the standards of
> five or ten years ago but it will pay a lot of bills!

Well, not sure how you figured $52K. Like another poster, I make it
closer to $110K.

If it's a W2 gig, that's not bad, depending on bene.'s.

If it's 1099, it's not worth it.

D.J.D.

On Jan 1, 11:27=A0am, David J Dachtera <djesys...@spam.comcast.net>
wrote:
> Well, not sure how you figured $52K. Like another poster, I make it
> closer to $110K.

You need to answer a bunch of questions to come up with a reasonable
salary estimate.  Some people answer these differently than others,
and that's why there's so much variability in how people determine an
equivalent salary for a given hourly rate.

Start with the basics:  How many true working hours are there in a
calendar year?  We have to make assumptions about things, such as
excluding workaholics that put in 12 hour days in a salaried position
without any balancing compensation.

a) A salaried employee working as a software developer is likely to
get a minimum of two weeks paid vacation.  Some are fortunate to get
three, four, or more weeks.  In some European countries the minimum is
five weeks.  As a freelance developer, how much unpaid, unproductive
vacation time would you allow yourself?

b) In the USA there are 10 Federal holidays, which is paid time off
for salaried employees.  Again, some are fortunate to get more.  I
don't think it's legal to offer fewer.  As a freelance developer, how
many unpaid, unproductive holiday days would you allow yourself?

c)  Most salaried employees are allowed some amount of paid sick
time.  The minimum "standard" seems to be five days per year (although
the average is 10 days).  Again, some get more, some get less.  As a
freelance developer, how many unpaid, unproductive sick days would you
allow yourself?

d) Most salaried employees are allowed at least two paid rest/coffee/
cigarette breaks during a work day.  The duration and number of those
breaks varies.  In addition, lunch breaks may be considered paid or
unpaid.  As a freelance developer, how many unpaid, unproductive rest/
coffee/lunch breaks would you allow yourself?

Now comes the mathematics.  There are 52 weeks in a calendar year.
Deduct paid vacation time, paid holidays, and paid sick time.  That
will yield the number of actual working weeks in the year.  For
example, if you only allow yourself two vacation weeks, ten Federal
holidays (2 weeks), and five sick days (1 week) then there are only
(52 - 2 - 2 - 1) =3D 47 working weeks in the year.

There are five work days in a week, so multiplying working weeks by
days per week gives us (in this example) 235 working days per calendar
year.

Next comes the real tough one: working hours per day.  Is it really
eight hours?  I'd say unlikely if you're being honest with yourself.
In a 9am to 5pm work day, there are at least two 15 minute paid rest
breaks, which gives us only 7.5 hours of productive time.  How long do
you take for lunch?  1/2 hour?  One hour?

For the sake of this example, let's say there really are eight working
hours in a day.  That would give use (235 * 8) =3D 1880 working hours
per calendar year.  I'd say this is optimistic, and chances are the
work day is really only seven hours long, which would yield only 1645
working hours in the year.  In addition, there are probably more like
10 sick days and three week vacations as the "norm", particularly for
professionals in our industry.

However, no matter how you slice it there are fewer than 2000 working
hours in a year, which means $55/hr cannot possibly translate to an
equivalent salary (or annual income) of $110k/year.

We also haven't even touched the surface on expenses incurred by a
freelancer that a salaried employee doesn't consider.  For example,
right off the top of that hourly rate comes (in the USA) the Social
Security tax.  Salaried employees only pay half the tax due, the rest
being contributed by the employer.  Freelance consultants have to pay
the whole thing.  So the $55/hr is really closer to $51/hr (allowing
for the extra 7.65% that goes straight to the government, until the
annual maximum is reached).

There's also health benefits.  Most salaried employees in our industry
get a substantial discount on health care costs, paid by their
employers.  Freelance consultants don't get that: we have to pay the
whole thing ourselves.  The national average (from ahrq.gov, 2004
data) shows that employees only pay about 18% of their health care
premium, with the employer picking up the remaining 82%.  The average
premium for an individual policy is $3664/year (also from ahrq.gov,
2005 data).  That means a salaried employee is getting approximately
$3000/yr in additional compensation on top of their salary, whereas
the freelance consultant is paying out that additional $3000/yr from
their gross income.  (Needless to say, if you look at the numbers for
a family plan the amounts are significantly higher.  The average
family plan premium in 2005 was $5668.)

Some consultants (like Seasoned_Geek who started this topic) will
travel away from their home for contracts.  That means there are
travel and lodging expenses that have to come out of that hourly
rate.  There are also other expenses paid by a freelance consultant,
and/or benefits received by a salaried employee, that reduce the
effective income of a given hourly rate when compared with an annual
salary.

If you're a consultant and you're thinking that $55/hr is the same as
earning $110k/yr in a salaried job then you are living in a fog.

FrankS wrote:
> 
> On Jan 1, 11:27 am, David J Dachtera <djesys...@spam.comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > Well, not sure how you figured $52K. Like another poster, I make it
> > closer to $110K.
> 
> [snip]
> If you're a consultant and you're thinking that $55/hr is the same as
> earning $110k/yr in a salaried job then you are living in a fog.

It depends.

If the client will let you get away with billing for "workaholic" hours,
then yes - it will go considerably higher.

Projects almost always have budgets. When your billing begins to grossly
exceed the project budget for your position, you will likely be let go.

It could be that you can bill for evenings, weekends and other overtime
until the the project budget goes bust, but this may or may not work in
your favor.

The client may limit your billing to 8 hours per standard work day, but
expect you to put in longer hours and provide after-hours support like a
salaried person. It depends on the terms of your (sub-)contract.

For comparisons between contract and salaried positions, better to use
"normal" working hours for a fairer comparison.

I covered holidays, PTO, taxes and benefits in my comments re: W2 vs.
1099.

I'd consider $55/hr to be W2 pay, and equivalent to $110/hr for 1099 to
cover taxes, benefits, etc. W2 salaries will always be hourly-rated
using 2080 hours per year.

$55/hr for 1099 would be roughly equivalent to $27/hr W2, which buys you
a recent graduate with zero real-world experience - so no experience
with VMS, VAX, Alpha and I64, but not much more.

D.J.D.