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HP eyes top VMS people for cuts

HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272

Neil 


0
n.rieck (2007)
10/23/2006 10:23:06 AM
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In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
> 

Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(

I wonder if VMS is about to enter maintainence mode. :-(

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
If Google's motto is "don't be evil", then how did we get Google Groups 2 ?
0
clubley (1478)
10/23/2006 11:44:30 AM
Simon Clubley wrote:
> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
> 
>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>>
> 
> 
> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
> 

Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention, 
you would not need to ask!!
0
rgilbert88 (4439)
10/23/2006 1:41:39 PM
In article <ifCXTYMj7lEe@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:
> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>> 
> 
> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(

This is rhetorical, right? :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill125 (2406)
10/23/2006 2:00:04 PM
Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Simon Clubley wrote:
>> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil 
>> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>
>>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>>>
>>
>>
>> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
>>
> 
> Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention, 
> you would not need to ask!!

There has been a tendency for some in this forum to have little use for 
those who have cried 'Wolf!' in the past.

How should "Johnny come lately's" to crying 'Wolf!' be perceived now?

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486
0
davef3 (3716)
10/23/2006 4:11:22 PM
Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Simon Clubley wrote:
>> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil 
>> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>
>>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>>>
>>
>>
>> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
>>
> 
> Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention, 
> you would not need to ask!!

My prediction:

HP finishes destroying all institutional knowledge of VMS, at which 
point one to many largish entities with ultra-expensive support 
contracts haul HP into court for an assortment of egregious contract 
violations.  The resulting court costs and/or settlement and/or 
judgments will be orders of magnitude larger than the pennies that they 
ostensibly saved by destroying the product.  HP is trying to have its 
cake and eat it too: keep the lucrative support contracts without really 
being able to provide the support.  That's a very stupid game to play 
when at least some of the people HP is trying to screw have legions of 
lawyers at their disposal.

Regards,

David Mathog
0
mathog (327)
10/23/2006 4:12:13 PM
Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Simon Clubley wrote:
> > In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
> >
> >>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
> >>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
> >>
> >
> >
> > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
> >
>
> Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention,
> you would not need to ask!!

Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into
*large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did?

0
dphill46 (619)
10/23/2006 4:40:32 PM
In article <bMidnaRKsJOBW6HYnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> Simon Clubley wrote:
>> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>> 
>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>> 
>> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
> 
> Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention, 
> you would not need to ask!!

Although I don't post to comp.os.vms as much as I used to, I do keep track
of what HP are up to with regards to VMS, and _if_ this happens as described
then it would be a new level of poor decision making on the part of HP.

It could also be the thing that finally finishes off VMS - no matter how
much one may like VMS, if you can't get proper support for it, then you
are going to be forced towards inferior products that _are_ supported.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
If Google's motto is "don't be evil", then how did we get Google Groups 2 ?
0
clubley (1478)
10/23/2006 4:42:11 PM
David Mathog wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> > Simon Clubley wrote:
> >> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil
> >> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
> >>
> >>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
> >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
> >>>
> >> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
> >>
> > Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention,
> > you would not need to ask!!
>
> My prediction:
>
> HP finishes destroying all institutional knowledge of VMS, at which
> point one to many largish entities with ultra-expensive support
> contracts haul HP into court for an assortment of egregious contract
> violations.  The resulting court costs and/or settlement and/or
> judgments will be orders of magnitude larger than the pennies that they
> ostensibly saved by destroying the product.  HP is trying to have its
> cake and eat it too: keep the lucrative support contracts without really
> being able to provide the support.  That's a very stupid game to play
> when at least some of the people HP is trying to screw have legions of
> lawyers at their disposal.

I agree with the general thought, but more likely the large customers
will complain and before it goes to court HP will settle with them.
Settlement most likely including access to the last remaining experts,
SLA's (with cash penalties), and reduced support cost.  This or similar
scenarios would have the same effect.  Reduced income (and possible
increased cost).  I could also see them offering free hardware and
license transfers to migrate them to a different platform even though
support may be no better there.

Either way this is very bad for VMS.  The had writing may have been on
the wall before, but if the rest of these lay offs happen (and maybe
too many have already happened), then it does look like VMS is terminal
(bad pun intended).  It MAY not be too late for HP to fix this problem
that they have created, but it seems to be getting close.  If they
continue down this path they are simply throwing away the large revenue
stream that is VMS support.  They may have grossly underestimated how
long some of us will keep our HP VMS phone support contracts before we
switch to 3rd party VMS support that uses the experts that previously
supported us at HP.

I am not advocating switching yet, but I am ready to switch if HP
support lets me down over the next 8 months (when my contract comes up
for renewal).

Thomas Wirt
Operations Manager
Kittle's Home Furnishings
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David Mathog

0
twnews (97)
10/23/2006 5:49:33 PM
Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:
> In article <ifCXTYMj7lEe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:
>> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
> 
> Oouch. There is this question again.
> 
> "Can DEC really be this stupid, this would be suicide"
They were and they're gone.  Management made out like bandits.

> "Can Compaq really be this stupid, this would be suicide"
They were and they're gone.  Management made out like bandits.
(Ok, the Compaq name lives on but it's now just another HP trademark.)

> "Can HP really be this stupid, this would be the end of VMS"
Yes. HP won't be gone because of this since VMS isn't that big
a part of  their business.  Management made out... oh never mind.

Regards,

David Mathog
0
mathog (327)
10/23/2006 6:19:05 PM
Doug Phillips wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>>Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>>>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
>>>
>>
>>Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention,
>>you would not need to ask!!
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into
> *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did?
> 

One of my friends, is, and has been for many years, the "resident" for 
Ford Motor Corporation.

Since there's at least one, there are probably a few more.
0
rgilbert88 (4439)
10/23/2006 6:54:59 PM
Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Doug Phillips wrote:
> > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> >
> >>Simon Clubley wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
> >>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
> >>>
> >>
> >>Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention,
> >>you would not need to ask!!
> >
> >
> > Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into
> > *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did?
> >
>
> One of my friends, is, and has been for many years, the "resident" for
> Ford Motor Corporation.
>

I knew that, and that's why I hung the reply on your post.

> Since there's at least one, there are probably a few more.

I thought I remembered that your friend wasn't doing that any longer.
I'm probably misremembering, though. He used to pop in here every so
often.

I still miss the old CS VAX forum.

0
dphill46 (619)
10/23/2006 7:40:19 PM
Doug Phillips wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> > Simon Clubley wrote:
> > > In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
> > >
> > >>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
> > >>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
> > >
> >
> > Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention,
> > you would not need to ask!!
>
> Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into
> *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did?

Well, I haven't seen him *today*, but as of last week we still had an
on-site person; sometimes more.

WWWebb

0
10/23/2006 8:00:36 PM
Simon Clubley wrote:
> In article <bMidnaRKsJOBW6HYnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>>> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
>> Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention, 
>> you would not need to ask!!
> 
> Although I don't post to comp.os.vms as much as I used to, I do keep track
> of what HP are up to with regards to VMS, and _if_ this happens as described
> then it would be a new level of poor decision making on the part of HP.
> 
> It could also be the thing that finally finishes off VMS - no matter how
> much one may like VMS, if you can't get proper support for it, then you
> are going to be forced towards inferior products that _are_ supported.
> 
> Simon.
> 

Or just toward cheaper products that have equally poor support.  People 
won't pay a premium for non-premium products.

Typical beancounter, they want the revenue, but not the costs.  What 
they do with their spreadsheets just doesn't work in real life.

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486
0
davef3 (3716)
10/23/2006 8:19:26 PM
Doug Phillips wrote:

> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>>Doug Phillips wrote:
>>
>>>Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>>>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention,
>>>>you would not need to ask!!
>>>
>>>
>>>Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into
>>>*large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did?
>>>
>>
>>One of my friends, is, and has been for many years, the "resident" for
>>Ford Motor Corporation.
>>
> 
> 
> I knew that, and that's why I hung the reply on your post.
> 
> 
>>Since there's at least one, there are probably a few more.
> 
> 
> I thought I remembered that your friend wasn't doing that any longer.
> I'm probably misremembering, though. He used to pop in here every so
> often.
> 
> I still miss the old CS VAX forum.
> 

That was VMS in it's heyday!  Alas!  I miss it too.  And DEC 
Professional.  And the folks at Professional Press.

Stu does still pop in here every once in a while but, since most of the 
traffic here is no longer VMS Technical, I doubt that he finds it as 
interesting as it once was.
0
rgilbert88 (4439)
10/23/2006 9:02:35 PM
Doug Phillips wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>>Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>>>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>>>
>>>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
>>
>>Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention,
>>you would not need to ask!!
>
> Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into
> *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did?

Well, I used to be one such a person (in the UK) for DEC, later Compaq,
at SmithKline-Beecham.

I am now half such a person (i.e. I do half, someone else does half)
at a large account in the UK for the competition (http://www.tesl.com).

Roy Omond
Blue Bubble Ltd.
0
Roy.Omond (380)
10/23/2006 9:19:54 PM
In article <ifCXTYMj7lEe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:
>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
>
>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(

Oouch. There is this question again.

"Can DEC really be this stupid, this would be suicide"
"Can Compaq really be this stupid, this would be suicide"
"Can HP really be this stupid, this would be the end of VMS"

>I wonder if VMS is about to enter maintainence mode. :-(

I surely do hope that VMS will survive, but I'm still in doubt.

-- 
Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
Network and OpenVMS system specialist
E-mail  peter@langstoeger.at
A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist
0
peter
10/23/2006 10:03:57 PM
David Mathog wrote:
> HP finishes destroying all institutional knowledge of VMS, at which
> point one to many largish entities with ultra-expensive support
> contracts haul HP into court for an assortment of egregious contract
> violations.  


Contract violations ? Would the contracts stipulate that HP is forced to
ratian experienced people like Hoff ? Does the contract stipulate that
the person answering the phone must havce X years experience minimum ?

Consider that really key contracts probably already have specially
assigned support people which bypass the normal support channels.


And in terms of HP abandonning VMS, while it certaintly looks that way,
and while HP is doing nothing to appeased VMS customers, it is entirely
possible that HP UX and Tandem are also losing key people. Remember that
JURD is killing 15,000 employees.
0
10/23/2006 10:33:42 PM
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:40:32 -0700, Doug Phillips <dphill46@netscape.net=
>  =

wrote:

> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Simon Clubley wrote:
>> > In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil =
 =

>> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>> >
>> >>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
>> >>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=3D35272
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
>> >
>>
>> Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attentio=
n,
>> you would not need to ask!!
>
> Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people int=
o
> *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did?
>
Yes.


-- =

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
0
tom294 (608)
10/24/2006 1:59:36 AM
In article <453D4344.5B5D3D71@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:


>Remember that
>JURD is killing 15,000 employees.

You are WAY out of line, fool.
0
rdeininger2 (410)
10/24/2006 2:16:14 AM
"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message 
news:453D4344.5B5D3D71@teksavvy.com...
[...snip...]
>
> And in terms of HP abandonning VMS, while it certaintly looks that way,
> and while HP is doing nothing to appeased VMS customers, it is entirely
> possible that HP UX and Tandem are also losing key people. Remember that
> JURD is killing 15,000 employees.
>
I suspect that Compaq and Tandem jobs are being cut while traditional HP 
jobs are not.

Hey, it's the new HP way.

Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html


0
n.rieck (2007)
10/24/2006 2:58:54 AM
Neil Rieck wrote:
> I suspect that Compaq and Tandem jobs are being cut while traditional HP
> jobs are not.


SUSPECT is the keyword here. We don't know for sure whether cuts have
affected VMS more than other BCS products at HP.

My suspicion is that Scott Stallard's pet projects are less touched. 

BTW, it goes Ann McQuaid -> Rich Marcello -> Scott Stallard -> Ann
Livermore -> Mark Hurd.


Since employees in charge of VMS had traditionally never really fought
within the owning corporation to get VMS its due space, I suspect that
they didn't fight much to be spared some cuts.

For instance, it is possible that Stallard ordered 15% cuts in BCS.
Then, HP-UX and Storage fight to justify their existance,   and Stallard
OKs that they need to only cut 5%. VMS is left at 15% because they
didn't fight. So on average, it matches the Hurd directive for 10% cuts.


Since HP management do not communicate with their customers/community,
we are left to speculate, and that is VERY BAD.
0
10/24/2006 4:07:49 AM
Robert Deininger wrote:
> In article <453D4344.5B5D3D71@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei
> <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Remember that
>> JURD is killing 15,000 employees.
> 
> You are WAY out of line, fool.

Not really, the 'J' key is next to the 'H' key.

It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable?

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486
0
davef3 (3716)
10/24/2006 6:12:02 AM
Dave Froble wrote:
> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable?

Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the
press about the employeed reductions.

My comments don't change the VMS marketplace.

Hurd's actions do change the VMS marketplace.


You can choose to insult, discredit and threathen to hit me with your
aluminium baseball bats all you want. But that doesn't change the odds
of VMS surviving beyond the end of the line for that IA64 thing.

Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the
next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha
and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel
really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard
architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86.

In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not
augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement.
0
10/24/2006 6:30:16 AM
JF Mezei wrote:

> Remember that JURD is killing 15,000 employees.
JURD => Hurd?
killing = firing?

HP management may be ethically challenged, but it isn't
_THAT_ ethically challenged.

Regards,

David Mathog
0
mathog (327)
10/24/2006 3:32:38 PM
David Mathog wrote:

> JF Mezei wrote:
> 
>> Remember that JURD is killing 15,000 employees.
> 
> JURD => Hurd?
> killing = firing?
> 
> HP management may be ethically challenged, but it isn't
> _THAT_ ethically challenged.
> 

THAT WE KNOW OF!!!!
0
rgilbert88 (4439)
10/24/2006 4:57:08 PM
JF Mezei wrote:
> Dave Froble wrote:
>> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable?
> 
> Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the
> press about the employeed reductions.

I believe Mr Deininger is displeased with your use of the word 'kill'. 
I can see his point.  I just took some of the sting out of the reply by 
focusing on the misspelling.  :-)

> My comments don't change the VMS marketplace.

There is so much humor in that one sentence.  It's so wide open, I don't 
know where to begin.  Merely questioning the waste of bandwidth is so 
weak, compared to other possibilities.

> Hurd's actions do change the VMS marketplace.
> 
> 
> You can choose to insult, discredit and threathen to hit me with your
> aluminium baseball bats all you want. But that doesn't change the odds
> of VMS surviving beyond the end of the line for that IA64 thing.

I haven't threatened you recently.  It was never over anything about 
VMS.  Solely over your usage of obsolete terms and names.

> Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the
> next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha
> and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel
> really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard
> architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86.
> 
> In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not
> augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement.

Ok, playing devil's advocate here.

How do you know any of the above?  How do you know that Steve has such 
intimate knowledge of VMS?  Perhaps he's the janitor and enjoys a few 
moments in the internet spotlight.  You really don't know.  But still 
you come up with these stories.

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486
0
davef3 (3716)
10/24/2006 6:07:59 PM
Dave Froble wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
> > Dave Froble wrote:
> >> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable?
> >
> > Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the
> > press about the employeed reductions.
>
>  <snip>
>
> > Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the
> > next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha
> > and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel
> > really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard
> > architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86.
> >
> > In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not
> > augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement.
>
> Ok, playing devil's advocate here.
>
> How do you know any of the above?  How do you know that Steve has such
> intimate knowledge of VMS?  Perhaps he's the janitor and enjoys a few
> moments in the internet spotlight.  You really don't know.  But still
> you come up with these stories.

If Hoff is a janitor,then he is a janitor that has read the internals
manual and is familiar with much of the VMS source code and the
organization of the VMS development team.  :)  I presume that you were
joking, but I was not sure.  I have spoken with Hoff many times at
DECUS Symposium (a rose by any other name ...) and I could tell by his
shirt that he was not a janitor (the janitors get nicer shirts and
usually have their names on them :) ).  Also from the conversation I am
pretty sure he worked with VMS development.

I am not sure these comments were needed, but if this is not clearly
fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on.  The
departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal.  It
is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS.

Thomas Wirt
Operations Manager
Kittle's Home Furnishings

>
> --
> David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA  15486

0
twnews (97)
10/24/2006 6:19:58 PM
twnews@kittles.com wrote:
> Dave Froble wrote:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable?
>>> Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the
>>> press about the employeed reductions.
>>  <snip>
>>
>>> Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the
>>> next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha
>>> and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel
>>> really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard
>>> architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86.
>>>
>>> In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not
>>> augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement.

Perhaps you missed the following?

>> Ok, playing devil's advocate here.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>
>> How do you know any of the above?  How do you know that Steve has such
>> intimate knowledge of VMS?  Perhaps he's the janitor and enjoys a few
>> moments in the internet spotlight.  You really don't know.  But still
>> you come up with these stories.
> 
> If Hoff is a janitor,then he is a janitor that has read the internals
> manual and is familiar with much of the VMS source code and the
> organization of the VMS development team.  :)  I presume that you were
> joking, but I was not sure.  I have spoken with Hoff many times at
> DECUS Symposium (a rose by any other name ...) and I could tell by his
> shirt that he was not a janitor (the janitors get nicer shirts and
> usually have their names on them :) ).  Also from the conversation I am
> pretty sure he worked with VMS development.
> 
> I am not sure these comments were needed, but if this is not clearly
> fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on.  The
> departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal.  It
> is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS.

I'm not sure why Steve left.  I'm led to believe that he was part of the 
IA-64 port effort, and with that pretty much done, the participants may 
not be needed in the future.  (Guess that would say something about 
porting to x86.)

The above was not an attack on Steve Hoffman.  It was questioning JF's 
wild speculations.

As for the future of VMS, if you have just developed concern, you're 
rather late.

Killing Alpha!  For what?  The itanic, which is sinking rather quickly, 
and unlike Alpha, it's manufacture is outside the control of the current 
owner of VMS.

Broken promises.

No promotion of the product.

Dismembering what was the best support organization in the world.

Just how high must the water in the boat be before you consider the 
possibility of sinking?

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486
0
davef3 (3716)
10/24/2006 9:10:58 PM
In article <FZudnWzdycak4qPYnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@libcom.com>,
	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> twnews@kittles.com wrote:
>> Dave Froble wrote:
>>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>>> Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable?
>>>> Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the
>>>> press about the employeed reductions.
>>>  <snip>
>>>
>>>> Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the
>>>> next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha
>>>> and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel
>>>> really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard
>>>> architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86.
>>>>
>>>> In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not
>>>> augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement.
> 
> Perhaps you missed the following?
> 
>>> Ok, playing devil's advocate here.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>>>
>>> How do you know any of the above?  How do you know that Steve has such
>>> intimate knowledge of VMS?  Perhaps he's the janitor and enjoys a few
>>> moments in the internet spotlight.  You really don't know.  But still
>>> you come up with these stories.
>> 
>> If Hoff is a janitor,then he is a janitor that has read the internals
>> manual and is familiar with much of the VMS source code and the
>> organization of the VMS development team.  :)  I presume that you were
>> joking, but I was not sure.  I have spoken with Hoff many times at
>> DECUS Symposium (a rose by any other name ...) and I could tell by his
>> shirt that he was not a janitor (the janitors get nicer shirts and
>> usually have their names on them :) ).  Also from the conversation I am
>> pretty sure he worked with VMS development.
>> 
>> I am not sure these comments were needed, but if this is not clearly
>> fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on.  The
>> departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal.  It
>> is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS.
> 
> I'm not sure why Steve left.  I'm led to believe that he was part of the 
> IA-64 port effort, and with that pretty much done, the participants may 
> not be needed in the future.  (Guess that would say something about 
> porting to x86.)
> 
> The above was not an attack on Steve Hoffman.  It was questioning JF's 
> wild speculations.
> 
> As for the future of VMS, if you have just developed concern, you're 
> rather late.
> 
> Killing Alpha!  For what?  The itanic, which is sinking rather quickly, 
> and unlike Alpha, it's manufacture is outside the control of the current 
> owner of VMS.
> 
> Broken promises.
> 
> No promotion of the product.
> 
> Dismembering what was the best support organization in the world.
> 
> Just how high must the water in the boat be before you consider the 
> possibility of sinking?
> 

Maybe people think its a submarine?

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill125 (2406)
10/24/2006 9:19:17 PM
Dave Froble wrote:
> The above was not an attack on Steve Hoffman.  It was questioning JF's
> wild speculations.


Sir Hoff is the one who provided us, the comp.os.vms community, the most
detailed explanations , the most technical details and help us
understand all that was involved in the port of VMS to IA64 with respect
to the core stuff like EFI.

Stating that Sir Hoff had carnal knowledge of EFI and was involved in
the port to that IA64 isn't "wild speculation".

If he succeeded in making *moi* understand how the EFI partition was
"fitted" into the VMS file system, it means that he knew enough about
EFI and the VMS internals to be able to put it into words that are
understandable by us peons.
0
10/24/2006 11:42:18 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Maybe people think its a submarine?

Don't know.  I've never been in a submarine.  But in all the movies I've 
watched with submarines, they seemed to get concerned when water started 
coming in.  But hey, that's just the movies, right?

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486
0
davef3 (3716)
10/25/2006 12:15:45 AM
Big Dave,

"Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> (and many others) wrote in message
news:9OidnfXBG5HjeqHYnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@libcom.com...
Something very much like: - "I want Bitty!  BITTY!"

Has VMS gone and died again without telling anyone? Unreliable piece o'
shite that it is; why can't it just stay dead? I was convinced that this
argument was wound up after Steve What's-his-name left!

Ok. This time for sure? Fat lady singing? Die Valkyrie coming down to sweep
our miserable souls away? Flat-lining now?

Anyway, I made the mistake of propping up TheEnquirer's figures (like
everyone else I'd imagine) and read the article. I suppose the good news for
VMS is that there is enough of you thumb-sucking bed-wetters out there still
fretting over VMS to make it worthwhile for these "people" to peddle this
shit.

So "Top VMS people" have to "justify their existence". Shock fucking horror!
I have to admit it is unusual for Permanent employees to undergo such
indignities but most contractors would have had to go through this rigmarole
whenever a takover has gone through or cost-cutting is in place. Every 3
months you produce a glowing, stats-backed, report of how wonderful you are
(end-user testimonials are always good) and after 6 months they give up
reading them or the focus has moved somewhere else. This is how *most* VMS
people have had to survive the last 15 years and the fact that it is now
starting to hit the inner-sanctum (judging by the hellish screams for mercy)
fills me with absolute joy! For those of you now looking into the abyss, I
sadly have no advice to give you, but on a constructive note, let me say
this "Fuck you; every last one of you!". Your decisions on DECforms, RTR,
Bridgeworks, Alpha et al, have brought us to where we are today. The fact
that you can now empathise fully with our pain, by no means compensates for
your years of stupidity and self-indulgence! Yes indeed, the gravy-train is
pulling into the station and Casey Jones is about to kick off yet more
derelict scum that have been leaching the very life-blood out of VMS and
siphoning it off to their personal pet projects for years if not decades.

But where will it all end you say? Surely there must be a finite amount of
fat to cut back?

I tell you solemly, while there is but one RTR "engineer" or one RTR support
person still employeed by HP then the purges will continue; and continue
they must! The ability of Captain RTR and his syphilitic hoard of cutthroats
(there's a blast from the past :-) have managed to manipulate and bullshit
to middle-management to such an extent that I saw a Cluster wite-paper the
other day that described that run-o-the-mill store-and-forward
BMQ/MMQ/MQseries message passer as "Software Fault Tolerance". "SOFTWARE
FAULT Fucking TOLERANCE"!!! How do those Bastards get away with that???

And there will be guilt by association! There will be a denouncing! Kerry
Main, for starters, has bent over and sung the RTR praises on more than one
occasion. Who else will stand up here for this filth and take what's coming
to them?

Dear HP,

Give RTR to OM Gruppen and make them support it! VMS has received no RTR
revenue from all all the lovely OM Click installations around the world due
to our anti-trust actions in bundling it with the operating system and
giving it away for free. OMX reap the benefits so let them pay the bloody
support costs for these movie-star dinosaurs! Ask yourself "Who bought a new
Marinello and Boat after the RTR bundling?"

If nothing else, give them to EDS or CA and rid the body VMS from this
canker!

Cheers Richard Maher

"Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message
news:9OidnfXBG5HjeqHYnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@libcom.com...
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> > Simon Clubley wrote:
> >> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil
> >> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
> >>
> >>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
> >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-(
> >>
> >
> > Where have you BEEN all these years?  If you had been paying attention,
> > you would not need to ask!!
>
> There has been a tendency for some in this forum to have little use for
> those who have cried 'Wolf!' in the past.
>
> How should "Johnny come lately's" to crying 'Wolf!' be perceived now?
>
> -- 
> David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA  15486




0
maher_rj (1626)
10/25/2006 1:40:37 PM
twnews@kittles.com wrote:
> fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on.  The
> departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal.  It
> is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS.

I've been nervous before, but this and the offshoring of support makes me
regret buying a couple "new" (to me) systems 2-3 months ago.  I really hate
to say this, but it has me thinking about changing the target platform for a
software project I've been working on in my spare time.

This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good equivalent
to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix?

		Zane

0
healyzh (393)
10/27/2006 6:26:21 PM
healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:

....

> This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good equivalent
> to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix?

For files that are updated in place, various forms of 'continuous data 
protection' (CDP) can provide similar (actually, far finer-grained) 
rollback capability (IBM now sells a personal version for Windows for a 
very reasonable price).  But that may not work well for applications 
(e.g., some editors) that build a new temporary copy of a file and then 
swap it with the original via Rename (hmmm - I *guess* that would work 
OK with VMS versioning, as long as the Rename didn't use an explicit 
version number).

Snapshot techniques may be far too coarse to be useful (unless someone 
has implemented something in the file system usable at fine grain).

An academic effort a few years ago called the Elephant File System 
sounded promising, but I don't know if any product ever came of it.

I'll be interested myself in seeing what other responses you may get. 
How does that outfit that specializes in migrating people from VMS to 
other platforms (ISTR that they have some kind of RMS emulator) handle 
this issue?

- bill
0
billtodd (1464)
10/27/2006 10:47:40 PM
healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:

> twnews@kittles.com wrote:
> 
>>fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on.  The
>>departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal.  It
>>is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS.
> 
> 
> I've been nervous before, but this and the offshoring of support makes me
> regret buying a couple "new" (to me) systems 2-3 months ago.  I really hate
> to say this, but it has me thinking about changing the target platform for a
> software project I've been working on in my spare time.
> 
> This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good equivalent
> to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix?
> 
> 		Zane
> 

SCCS or RCS will serve for source files and, perhaps, others.  They are 
not the general solution that file versioning is.
0
rgilbert88 (4439)
10/27/2006 11:20:31 PM
healyzh@aracnet.com writes:

> This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good
> equivalent to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix?

There arn't any. Best is Unisucks or AS400...

For a very bitter value of `best'. AS400 has the advantage that
there are people all over who know it, and if YOU know it, you
will always be in work.

-- 
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.
0
prep (906)
10/28/2006 5:40:14 PM
In article <87slh8gwzl.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
	prep@prep.synonet.com writes:
> healyzh@aracnet.com writes:
> 
>> This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good
>> equivalent to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix?
> 
> There arn't any. Best is Unisucks or AS400...
> 
> For a very bitter value of `best'. AS400 has the advantage that
> there are people all over who know it, and if YOU know it, you
> will always be in work.

Or, because he mentions this is for a specific "software project" he
is working on, he could do it himself within the application. I have
in the past and feel fairly certain the time will come when I will
again.  While versioning is nice, sometimes it is overkill and doing
it on an applicayion by application basis seems to make more sense
than doing even for those 90% of the times when it is unnecessary.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill125 (2406)
10/29/2006 2:25:05 PM
In article <ehtj0d016lh@enews3.newsguy.com>, healyzh@aracnet.com writes:
> 
> This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good equivalent
> to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix?
> 

   I know Sun claims to have produced one, and then dropped it because
   none of thier customers used it.  I don't know if they had a proper
   set of tools (what does ls show?, how does * translate as a shell
   wildcard?).

   Most programmers I know use CVS/SCCS/RCS/... as a manual versioning
   tool.   Everybody else just flings thier coffee mugs when eunichs
   looses an important file by the fickle fingers of human typos.

0
koehler2 (8314)
10/30/2006 8:14:46 PM
Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:
> In article <87slh8gwzl.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
>     prep@prep.synonet.com writes:
> >> equivalent to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix?
> > 
> > There arn't any. Best is Unisucks or AS400...
> > 
> > For a very bitter value of `best'. AS400 has the advantage that
> > there are people all over who know it, and if YOU know it, you
> > will always be in work.

I've been interested in trying out an AS/400 for years, however, it doesn't
seem very practical.  They don't seem to be easy to run at home.

> Or, because he mentions this is for a specific "software project" he
> is working on, he could do it himself within the application. I have
> in the past and feel fairly certain the time will come when I will
> again.  While versioning is nice, sometimes it is overkill and doing
> it on an applicayion by application basis seems to make more sense
> than doing even for those 90% of the times when it is unnecessary.

I'm afraid not, neither of the projects I'm working on will benefit from a
versioning filesystem.  OTOH, the versioning filesystem seriously benefits
my writing the software, and in systems management.  

		Zane
0
healyzh (393)
11/1/2006 12:16:45 AM
Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:
> For files that are updated in place, various forms of 'continuous data 
> protection' (CDP) can provide similar (actually, far finer-grained) 
> rollback capability (IBM now sells a personal version for Windows for a 
> very reasonable price).  But that may not work well for applications 
> (e.g., some editors) that build a new temporary copy of a file and then 
> swap it with the original via Rename (hmmm - I *guess* that would work 
> OK with VMS versioning, as long as the Rename didn't use an explicit 
> version number).

> Snapshot techniques may be far too coarse to be useful (unless someone 
> has implemented something in the file system usable at fine grain).

I know that the snapshot backups used on the NetApp filers that we have are
pretty handy, and I've considered looking into what it would take to setup
something such as this on Linux.  However, snapshot backups are typically
only good for a few days, and I normally either need 2-3 edits ago, or 6
months ago.  For this VMS versioning rocks!  It helps that I don't PURGE
most files.  I do have it setup to automatically purge all except the last 5
versions of some logs, though I've been known to regret even that.


> An academic effort a few years ago called the Elephant File System 
> sounded promising, but I don't know if any product ever came of it.

Sounds familiar, I might have looked at it a few years ago.

> I'll be interested myself in seeing what other responses you may get. 
> How does that outfit that specializes in migrating people from VMS to 
> other platforms (ISTR that they have some kind of RMS emulator) handle 
> this issue?

I've had it suggested that I take a look at FUSE on Linux by a coworker, I'd
already done some research on this and it looks like in the past there have
been a couple different projects to do this.  "Wayback" and "CopyFS" are
FUSE options, and it looks like "fsfipi & vaves" might be as well.  FUSE is
"Filesystem in Userspace". 

Interesting...  It appears that "CopyFS" is still alive and well, it looks
like the page was updated a few days ago saying v1.1 should be out by the
end of the year.  "Wayback hasn't seen activity since June of 2004 from the
looks of things.

http://n0x.org/copyfs/
http://wayback.sourceforge.net/

Somehow I think more of RCS when looking into CopyFS.  I don't see any
examples of information on Wayback, but I did find mention of VersionFS
which appears to predate it, and is apprently functionally the same.  The
examples I found for VersionFS make it appear to be at least close to what
VMS users would want.  As Wayback is newer code, runs on top of FUSE, and
supports both 2.4 and 2.6 kernels, it looks like it might be the best to
look at.

There is also ext3cow, which appears to be an interesting take on the issue,
but using a @{ctime stamp} instead of ;{version number} seems more than a
little unwieldly.  Actaully it looks like it is a snapshot filesystem that
accesses the previous versions in that manner.  http://www.ext3cow.com/

		Zane

0
healyzh (393)
11/1/2006 5:32:39 PM
Reply: