From one of my online buddies:

Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...

http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b

This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS

Neil Rieck
Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> From one of my online buddies:
>
> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>
> This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS
>
> Neil Rieck
> Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
> Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

This Microsoft video:
http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c9=
0c5f1b

Or this URL which shouldn't wrap:
http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/
3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b

Mentions PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS.

It also mentions uVAX, RISC, PRISM, Dave Cutler, how DEC West
(Seattle) ended up at Microsoft. How Decies influenced Microsoft. How
Decies influenced Intel after Andy Grove witnessed a demo PC built by
Decies at Microsoft (you will see the motherboard sitting on one
exec's window sill)

If you ever doubted DEC's influence on the PC industry then you should
watch this video. In essence, the people at "DEC West Seattle" did to
the PC industry what DEC did to the minicomputer industry.

Neil Rieck
Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

Thanks Neil!  Great interview ... interesting life he's had!

Cheers,
Art
-- 
"Cheer up ... things could get worse"
So he did ... and they did!

In article <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047f89@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> From one of my online buddies:
>>
>> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>
>> http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>>
>> This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS
>>
>> Neil Rieck
>> Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
>> Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
>
>This Microsoft video:
>http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c9=
>0c5f1b
>
>Or this URL which shouldn't wrap:
>http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/
>3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b
>
>Mentions PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS.
>
>It also mentions uVAX, RISC, PRISM, Dave Cutler, how DEC West
>(Seattle) ended up at Microsoft. How Decies influenced Microsoft. How
>Decies influenced Intel after Andy Grove witnessed a demo PC built by
>Decies at Microsoft (you will see the motherboard sitting on one
>exec's window sill)
>
>If you ever doubted DEC's influence on the PC industry then you should
>watch this video. In essence, the people at "DEC West Seattle" did to
>the PC industry what DEC did to the minicomputer industry.
>
>Neil Rieck
>Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
>Ontario, Canada.
>http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to keep
those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from viewing.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

<VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
news:00A96A71.A5C87911@SendSpamHere.ORG...
> In article 
> <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047f89@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, Neil 
> Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> From one of my online buddies:
>>>
>>> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>>> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>>> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>>> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>>> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>>> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>>> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>>
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>>>

>
> Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to keep
> those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from viewing.
>
> -- 
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker 
> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>

Since the video works fine in Firefox, I'm assuming you're using the 
original Mozilla browser.  Granted, I'm using Firefox on Windows Vista.  As 
for proprietary, there is a WMV codec for Quicktime that should play the WMV 
downloadable version just fine.

Mike.

In article <5cqdnT7-4s8SUKrWnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "Michael Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:
>
><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
>news:00A96A71.A5C87911@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>> In article 
>> <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047f89@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, Neil 
>> Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>>On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>> From one of my online buddies:
>>>>
>>>> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>>>> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>>>> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>>>> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>>>> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>>>> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>>>> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>>>>
>
>>
>> Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to keep
>> those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from viewing.
>>
>> -- 
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker 
>> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>>
>
>Since the video works fine in Firefox, I'm assuming you're using the 
>original Mozilla browser.  Granted, I'm using Firefox on Windows Vista.  As 
>for proprietary, there is a WMV codec for Quicktime that should play the WMV 
>downloadable version just fine.

Not.

Firefox on linux.  It wanted something called Moonlight to be installed to
view the video.  It's not WMV.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Firefox on linux.  It wanted something called Moonlight to be installed to
> view the video.  It's not WMV.

re: http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1

On a Mac, it tells me that "Sorry, System is temporarily unavailable".

On Dec 27, 11:39=A0am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups=
..com>, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Dec 25, 9:18=3DA0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> From one of my online buddies:
>
> >> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
> >> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
> >> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
> >> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
> >> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
> >> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
> >> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>
> >>http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-..=
..
>
> >> This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS
>
> >> Neil Rieck
> >> Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
> >> Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
>
> >This Microsoft video:
> >http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
> >0c5f1b
>
> >Or this URL which shouldn't wrap:
> >http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/
> >3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b
>
> >Mentions PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS.
>
> >It also mentions uVAX, RISC, PRISM, Dave Cutler, how DEC West
> >(Seattle) ended up at Microsoft. How Decies influenced Microsoft. How
> >Decies influenced Intel after Andy Grove witnessed a demo PC built by
> >Decies at Microsoft (you will see the motherboard sitting on one
> >exec's window sill)
>
> >If you ever doubted DEC's influence on the PC industry then you should
> >watch this video. In essence, the people at "DEC West Seattle" did to
> >the PC industry what DEC did to the minicomputer industry.
>
> >Neil Rieck
> >Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
> >Ontario, Canada.
> >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
>
> Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to keep
> those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from viewing.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> =A0 "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

I use Firefox for 99% of my web activities. Firefox worked at this M$
site.

NSR

Had to go back to the original message to get a working URL. Seesm that
the URL that was quoted later on was incomplete and that is what gave me
the "System is unavailable" message.

However, I have to worry about a big securitry flaw in OS-X. I never
agreed to have this microsoft proprietary Silverlight virus download on
my mac. So how come this video which requires Silverlight is running ?

JF Mezei wrote:

> However, I have to worry about a big securitry flaw in OS-X. I never
> agreed to have this microsoft proprietary Silverlight virus download on
> my mac. So how come this video which requires Silverlight is running ?

Tracked it down to Flip4Mac (the WMV plugin for Quicktime), it now
includes a Silverlight plugin. Need to find out how to not only disable
it, but remove it.

<VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
news:00A96AA2.AE45EDEE@SendSpamHere.ORG...
> In article <5cqdnT7-4s8SUKrWnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "Michael 
> Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:
>>
>><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>>news:00A96A71.A5C87911@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>> In article
>>> <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047f89@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, 
>>> Neil
>>> Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>>>On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>>> From one of my online buddies:
>>>>>
>>>>> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>>>>> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>>>>> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>>>>> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>>>>> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>>>>> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>>>>> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to 
>>> keep
>>> those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from 
>>> viewing.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker
>>> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>>>
>>
>>Since the video works fine in Firefox, I'm assuming you're using the
>>original Mozilla browser.  Granted, I'm using Firefox on Windows Vista. 
>>As
>>for proprietary, there is a WMV codec for Quicktime that should play the 
>>WMV
>>downloadable version just fine.
>
> Not.
>
> Firefox on linux.  It wanted something called Moonlight to be installed to
> view the video.  It's not WMV.
>
>
> -- 
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker 
> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
>  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
>  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

Moonlight is the Open Source version of the MS SilverLight player.

In article <3e71a159-c267-4883-8808-105aeb8d6642@e37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>On Dec 27, 11:39=A0am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups=
>..com>, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Dec 25, 9:18=3DA0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >> From one of my online buddies:
>>
>> >> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>> >> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>> >> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>> >> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>> >> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>> >> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>> >> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>
>> >>http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-..=
>..
>>
>> >> This 55 minute video talks about PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS
>>
>> >> Neil Rieck
>> >> Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
>> >> Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
>>
>> >This Microsoft video:
>> >http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>> >0c5f1b
>>
>> >Or this URL which shouldn't wrap:
>> >http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/
>> >3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-d6f0c90c5f1b
>>
>> >Mentions PDP-11/05, VAX-11/780, and VMS.
>>
>> >It also mentions uVAX, RISC, PRISM, Dave Cutler, how DEC West
>> >(Seattle) ended up at Microsoft. How Decies influenced Microsoft. How
>> >Decies influenced Intel after Andy Grove witnessed a demo PC built by
>> >Decies at Microsoft (you will see the motherboard sitting on one
>> >exec's window sill)
>>
>> >If you ever doubted DEC's influence on the PC industry then you should
>> >watch this video. In essence, the people at "DEC West Seattle" did to
>> >the PC industry what DEC did to the minicomputer industry.
>>
>> >Neil Rieck
>> >Kitchener / Waterloo / Cambridge,
>> >Ontario, Canada.
>> >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
>>
>> Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to keep
>> those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from viewing.
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
>dot)ORG
>>
>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>> =A0 "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
>
>I use Firefox for 99% of my web activities. Firefox worked at this M$
>site.
>
>NSR

On an M$ infected box no doubt?

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <6eKdnXEh244fbqrWnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "Michael Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:
>
><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
>news:00A96AA2.AE45EDEE@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>> In article <5cqdnT7-4s8SUKrWnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "Michael 
>> Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:
>>>
>>><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>>>news:00A96A71.A5C87911@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>> In article
>>>> <aa4f3527-b538-44e8-9b2a-1caa95047f89@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, 
>>>> Neil
>>>> Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:
>>>>>On Dec 25, 9:18=A0am, Neil Rieck <n.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> From one of my online buddies:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>>>>>> Rob Short is an operating system pioneer. He helped Microsoft
>>>>>> transition from the 1980s with DOS and 16 bit windows into the 32 bit
>>>>>> world with Windows NT in the 1990s. More recently, Rob was part of the
>>>>>> team that further enhanced windows to take advantage of the 64 bit
>>>>>> processors of the new millennium. Today, he is the Vice President
>>>>>> overseeing development of windows kernel and virtualization...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/video/en/us/details/3c021020-5765-4c0a-a7b1-...
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just what we need, yet another Micro$oft proprietary video format to 
>>>> keep
>>>> those who haven't partaken of the Micro$oft tainted koolaid from 
>>>> viewing.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker
>>>> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>>>>
>>>
>>>Since the video works fine in Firefox, I'm assuming you're using the
>>>original Mozilla browser.  Granted, I'm using Firefox on Windows Vista. 
>>>As
>>>for proprietary, there is a WMV codec for Quicktime that should play the 
>>>WMV
>>>downloadable version just fine.
>>
>> Not.
>>
>> Firefox on linux.  It wanted something called Moonlight to be installed to
>> view the video.  It's not WMV.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker 
>> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>>
>>  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>>  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
>
>Moonlight is the Open Source version of the MS SilverLight player.

Which doesn't work, after downloading and installing, to display this video.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

On 27-12-2009 18:53, Michael Ober wrote:
> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>> Firefox on linux. It wanted something called Moonlight to be installed to
>> view the video. It's not WMV.
>
> Moonlight is the Open Source version of the MS SilverLight player.

It is.

But they are one version behind and even for that they have
missing functionality.

It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
work with ML.

Arne

Arne Vajh�j wrote:

> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
> work with ML.

And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
don't want any content distributed in that format.

If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
accepted by the community.

JF Mezei wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> 
>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>> work with ML.
> 
> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
> don't want any content distributed in that format.
> 
> If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
> accepted by the community.

What is your definition of "the community ??
If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
of todays world (at least the online world).
It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.

On 28-12-2009 18:08, JF Mezei wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>> work with ML.
>
> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
> don't want any content distributed in that format.

If your religion forbids you to use MS stuff, then by all means say no.

> If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
> accepted by the community.

According to the last statistics I have seen then 37.4% of the
computers used for internet browsing has SL installed.

Arne

In article <y0c_m.14037$U5.212322@newsb.telia.net>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>JF Mezei wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> 
>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>>> work with ML.
>> 
>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>> 
>> If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
>> accepted by the community.
>
>What is your definition of "the community ??
>If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
>tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
>of todays world (at least the online world).
>It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.

95%?  Did you know that 87% of most statistics are conjured up out of 10%
air 45% of the time?

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <4b395280$0$272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>On 28-12-2009 18:08, JF Mezei wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>>> work with ML.
>>
>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>
>If your religion forbids you to use MS stuff, then by all means say no.

It's not my religion that bothers me; it's M$'s climing into bed with
a particular cult that has me turning away and running for the hills.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <y0c_m.14037$U5.212322@newsb.telia.net>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>>>> work with ML.
>>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
>>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
>>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>>>
>>> If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
>>> accepted by the community.
>> What is your definition of "the community ??
>> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
>> tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
>> of todays world (at least the online world).
>> It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
> 
> 95%?  Did you know that 87% of most statistics are conjured up out of 10%
> air 45% of the time?
> 

Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal 
intelligence?  (My favorite statistic!)

On 28-12-2009 20:44, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<4b395280$0$272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>> On 28-12-2009 18:08, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>>>> work with ML.
>>>
>>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
>>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
>>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>>
>> If your religion forbids you to use MS stuff, then by all means say no.
>
> It's not my religion that bothers me; it's M$'s climing into bed with
> a particular cult that has me turning away and running for the hills.

MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.

Arne

Jan-Erik S�derholm wrote:

> What is your definition of "the community ??
> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
> tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
> of todays world (at least the online world).
> It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.


I've just watched a documentary about a famous american archeologist
who, in the 1930s,   helped a small indian village regain a stolen
sacred rock. In doing so, he ended up in some hidden indian palace below
wich were secret caverns where an ancient cult was being practiced. Non
believers were forced to drink some blood after which, they blindly
followed the religion without questioning it.

95% had become loyal to that cult and did not question its act, and at
one point even the archeologist had succombed to the blood's powers.
But the archeologist's younger helper found a way to bring people out of
this trance with a flame and they managed to free the thousands that had
become trapped in that complex.


Perhaps the same should be done with the people who have fallen into the
blind devotion of the Microsoft cult and willl blindly accept everything
Microsoft orders them to do. It is time to throw a flame at those people
to wake them up of this false god.

Signed: JF,
who has gone to the Apple place opf worship (apple store)  more often
than to church in 2009, but who also verified that there is no temple of
doom under those places of worship...


:-)

Jan-Erik S�derholm schrieb:

> 
> What is your definition of "the community ??
> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS 

"free elections" in former Eastern block states
come to mind.

> and
> tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
> of todays world (at least the online world).
> It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.

Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:

> Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal 
> intelligence?  (My favorite statistic!)

And what's wrong with that statistic?

Arne Vajh�j schrieb:

> 
> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
> 

There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
formats.

Michael Kraemer mentioned  on 29-12-2009 9:39:
> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
> 
>> Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal 
>> intelligence?  (My favorite statistic!)
> 
> And what's wrong with that statistic?


Same thing as with `Everyone wants an above-average income�

-Wilm

Wilm Boerhout schrieb:
> Michael Kraemer mentioned  on 29-12-2009 9:39:
> 
>> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
>>
>>> Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal 
>>> intelligence?  (My favorite statistic!)
>>
>>
>> And what's wrong with that statistic?
> 
> 
> 
> Same thing as with `Everyone wants an above-average income�
> 
> -Wilm

Not quite.
Your assertion doesn't refer to a statistic,
it's a simple statement which can easily be disproved
if you find somebody who is satisfied with his income
(a buddhist monk maybe).
Mr. Gilbert's statement is an inappropriate interpretation
of an otherwise correct statistic
(normal, i.e. Gaussian distribution of human intelligence).
"Inappropriate" insofar as there's no definition
what "normal" would be in this context.

Michael Kraemer mentioned  on 29-12-2009 10:26:
> Wilm Boerhout schrieb:
>> Michael Kraemer mentioned  on 29-12-2009 9:39:
>>
>>> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal 
>>>> intelligence?  (My favorite statistic!)
>>>
>>>
>>> And what's wrong with that statistic?
>>
>>
>>
>> Same thing as with `Everyone wants an above-average income�
>>
>> -Wilm
> 
> Not quite.
> Your assertion doesn't refer to a statistic,
> it's a simple statement which can easily be disproved
> if you find somebody who is satisfied with his income
> (a buddhist monk maybe).
> Mr. Gilbert's statement is an inappropriate interpretation
> of an otherwise correct statistic
> (normal, i.e. Gaussian distribution of human intelligence).
> "Inappropriate" insofar as there's no definition
> what "normal" would be in this context.

Oh, lighten up already. If you want to take it seriously: "average" is a 
well-defined statistical term. Even if we were all monks, our incomes 
could not mathematically/statistically be all "above average".

"Normal" is also a well defined statisticall term. At the "normal", 
there are as many items in the population above that point as below. 
Hence, the pun in Richard's statement.

/Wilm

On Dec 29, 2:05=A0am, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 28-12-2009 20:44, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
> > In article<4b395280$0$272$14726...@news.sunsite.dk>, =3D?ISO-8859-1?Q?A=
rne_Vajh=3DF8j?=3D<a...@vajhoej.dk> =A0writes:
> >> On 28-12-2009 18:08, JF Mezei wrote:
> >>> Arne Vajh=F8j wrote:
> >>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
> >>>> work with ML.
>
> >>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force i=
tw
> >>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" a=
nd
> >>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>
> >> If your religion forbids you to use MS stuff, then by all means say no=
..
>
> > It's not my religion that bothers me; it's M$'s climing into bed with
> > a particular cult that has me turning away and running for the hills.
>
> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>
> Arne

MS may just be another company trying to make as much money as
possible, but the way they go about it seems to be historically
unique. I know of no other surviving company with so many adverse
verdicts in the legal system (anti trust and similar in the US and the
EU), and I know of no other company with such a huge external
monoculture ecosystem totally dependent on the company at the head of
the food chain, regardless of the true needs of the market. Indeed the
company at the head of this bit of food chain is more important to
many of the players (PC vendors like Dell and HP, software companies
like Symantec, companies and individuals with their MCSE/
MCP/"certified trainer" badges, etc) than the genuine but frequently
ignored needs of their end users.

Happy New Vista-Free Year.

In article <4b39cf12$0$14120$703f8584@textnews.kpn.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <w6.boerhout@planet.nl> writes:
> 
> Oh, lighten up already. If you want to take it seriously: "average" is a 
> well-defined statistical term. Even if we were all monks, our incomes 
> could not mathematically/statistically be all "above average".

   It could be if you used MS applications to calculate the average
   using Pentium arithmatic.

On Dec 29, 5:57=A0am, John Wallace <johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I know of no other company with such a huge external
> monoculture ecosystem totally dependent on the company at the head of
> the food chain, regardless of the true needs of the market

Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland.

Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
> 
>> Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal 
>> intelligence?  (My favorite statistic!)
> 
> And what's wrong with that statistic?
> 

Actually it's 49.99999. . . .%  If you line up everyone in order from 
smartest to dumbest the guy in the middle is "normal".  Further there's 
no reliable way to distinguish the "normal" person from any of a million 
just below him in line or from any of a million just above him.

But it's a lovely example!

Wilm Boerhout wrote:

> Oh, lighten up already. If you want to take it seriously: "average" is a
> well-defined statistical term.

   So is "median", and its definition is different., and
confusing the two concepts can lead to a lot of nonsense

>  Even if we were all monks, our incomes
> could not mathematically/statistically be all "above average".

   Consider a case where 99 people make $100000 and one person
makes $1.  What's the average?  How many people make more than
the average?  (Not "all", but pretty close.)

   The best way to fight sloppy thought is not, I claim, more
sloppy thought.

Steven Schweda wrote:
> Wilm Boerhout wrote:
> 
>> Oh, lighten up already. If you want to take it seriously: "average" is a
>> well-defined statistical term.
> 
>    So is "median", and its definition is different., and
> confusing the two concepts can lead to a lot of nonsense
> 

IIRC the average (Mean), the mode (most common value) and the Median 
(middle) are identical in the "normal" or Gaussian distribution.  All 
are measures of "central tendency".  For further enlightenment, see your 
"Statistics" text book.

On 29-12-2009 03:44, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>
> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
> formats.

What formats are you talking about?

Every office application (MS, WP, Lotus) used their
own closed formats for decades.

MS has been actively supporting open formats
in the web world: HTTP, HTML, SOAP, WS-whatever etc..

Arne

Arne Vajh�j wrote:

> MS has been actively supporting open formats
> in the web world: HTTP, HTML, SOAP, WS-whatever etc..


Microsoft has been actively promoting its own proprietary *variations*
on accepted formats and paying/pushing web sites to adopt those features
so that those who used non Mocrosoft products would have problems
accessing those sites.

In article <4b39c1f5$0$14125$703f8584@textnews.kpn.nl>,
 Wilm Boerhout <w6.boerhout@planet.nl> wrote:

> Michael Kraemer mentioned  on 29-12-2009 9:39:
> > Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
> > 
> >> Did you know that more than 40% of the population have subnormal 
> >> intelligence?  (My favorite statistic!)
> > 
> > And what's wrong with that statistic?
> 
> 
> Same thing as with `Everyone wants an above-average income�
> 

A better analogy is "Everyone thinks they are a better than average 
driver".

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <y0c_m.14037$U5.212322@newsb.telia.net>,
 Jan-Erik S�derholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:

> JF Mezei wrote:
> > Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> > 
> >> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
> >> work with ML.
> > 
> > And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
> > own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
> > don't want any content distributed in that format.
> > 
> > If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
> > accepted by the community.
> 
> What is your definition of "the community ??
> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
> tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
> of todays world (at least the online world).
> It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.

I remember a job agency using that 95% figure to justify rewriting their 
web site to cater for MSIE _only_.

They forgot that their largest corporate customer didn't run MSIE.

-- 
Paul Sture

On 30-12-2009 11:47, Paul Sture wrote:
> In article<y0c_m.14037$U5.212322@newsb.telia.net>,
>   Jan-Erik S�derholm<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  wrote:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> It is definitely possible to have a SL app that does not
>>>> work with ML.
>>>
>>> And is best to just say "NO" to Microsoft trying yet again to force itw
>>> own proprietary standard onto the world. Just disable "Silverlight" and
>>> don't want any content distributed in that format.
>>>
>>> If people want to distribute content they will choose a format which is
>>> accepted by the community.
>>
>> What is your definition of "the community ??
>> If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
>> tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
>> of todays world (at least the online world).
>> It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
>
> I remember a job agency using that 95% figure to justify rewriting their
> web site to cater for MSIE _only_.
>
> They forgot that their largest corporate customer didn't run MSIE.

IE only principle is dead today. FireFox and recently Chrome
have changed that.

Arne

On Dec 28, 11:31=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote:
> > What is your definition of "the community ??
> > If I'm not wrong, 95% of the "community" run Microsoft OS and
> > tools so disabling those tools cuts you of from a large part
> > of todays world (at least the online world).
> > It's up to you I guess but it seems a bit silly.
>
> I've just watched a documentary about a famous american archeologist
> who, in the 1930s, =A0 helped a small indian village regain a stolen
> sacred rock. In doing so, he ended up in some hidden indian palace below
> wich were secret caverns where an ancient cult was being practiced. Non
> believers were forced to drink some blood after which, they blindly
> followed the religion without questioning it.
>
> 95% had become loyal to that cult and did not question its act, and at
> one point even the archeologist had succombed to the blood's powers.
> But the archeologist's younger helper found a way to bring people out of
> this trance with a flame and they managed to free the thousands that had
> become trapped in that complex.
>
> Perhaps the same should be done with the people who have fallen into the
> blind devotion of the Microsoft cult and willl blindly accept everything
> Microsoft orders them to do. It is time to throw a flame at those people
> to wake them up of this false god.
>
> Signed: JF,
> who has gone to the Apple place opf worship (apple store) =A0more often
> than to church in 2009, but who also verified that there is no temple of
> doom under those places of worship...
>
> :-)

You are correct about people looking upon technology as a religion. I
was once a huge fan of the Apple religion until I watched Apple make a
series of product changes which proved to me that Apple management was
less involved in the Apple religion than their customers (but to be
fair, every company needs to remain profitable). I have also
encountered people in the Windows religion, Macintosh religion, Sun-
Solaris religion, HP-UX religion, VAX religion, VMS religion, an so
forth.

It is easy to see why people might get involved in the VAX or VMS
religion since these platforms were so damned reliable. Both DEC and
Compaq knew it so kept the prices high.

It is east to see why people like Macs. Just like OpenVMS on VAX,
Alpha or Itanium, Apple is able to control the hardware base so that
the whole product line is a whole lot more stable. But like VMS based
products, Macs are more expensive that their Windows counter parts
(and here I am talking about Intel based Macs with Core i7 processors)

It is easy to see why people hate Microsoft and Windows. Microsoft was
doing both questionable and illegal things (re: Netscape as just one
example) while they got filthy rich. Meanwhile, Windows 3.1 and 3.11
were both a joke compared to the MacOS and Solaris at that time. And
don't even get me started about the Blue Screen of Death. But to be
fair to Microsoft, I new lots of people attempting to install Windows
it on really cheap third party hardware. Forget about trying to
overclock that stuff, the hardware barely worked at the rated speed.
When those things crashed everyone scoffed at Windows. But around 1992
I found myself in a Toronto office for a month where everyone (~30
people) were running Windows on Compaq hardware and never heard or saw
a Windows lockup or crash (and we were running engineering software
from SynOptics).

Today, lots of people (including some in this newsgroup) still have a
hate on for Microsoft products but I think it is time to point out the
obvious:

1) DEC screwed up big-time by chasing some of their Seattle employees
into the waiting arms of Bill gates

2) ex-DEC employees at Microsoft did, to the PC industry, what DEC did
to the minicomputer industry (made it respectable).

3) there were two Windows code bases as Microsoft (vanilla Windows
which was promoted by Microsoft employees, and NT which was created
then promoted by mostly ex-DEC employees). Since Windows-XP, the
efforts of the ex-DEC employees has completely eliminated the vanilla
Windows code base. Since then, I personally have never experienced a
Windows lockup or the blue screen of death.

4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.

5) like the story of "the tortoise and the hare", Windows is getting
incrementally better each release while the hares (us) still scoff at
it. The Vista fiasco was supposedly caused by a combination of lax
management (no more Bill Gates) along with the retirement of ex-DEC
employees (they actually had to bring Dave Cutler back from retirement
to move a few things along). Although MS was able to repair Vista then
re-release it as Windows-7, this means that Microsoft is not immune to
mismanagement.

Will I ever trade in an OpenVMS system for a Windows system? Not
anytime soon, if ever. I still consider Windows machines to be PCs but
it would be wrong for me to think that this will always be the case.
After all, we once saw large VAX clusters take a big bite out of the
IBM mainframe business.

NSR

"Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message 
news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>
>>
>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>
>
> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
> formats.

Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems? 
Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?

 

In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>"Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message 
>news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>
>>>
>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>
>>
>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>> formats.
>
>Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems? 
>Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?

If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.

I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

Neil Rieck wrote:
>
> You are correct about people looking upon technology as a religion. I
> was once a huge fan of the Apple religion until I watched Apple make a
> series of product changes which proved to me that Apple management was
> less involved in the Apple religion than their customers 

I would agree with that. Apple simply fosters te religion and then takes
advantage of the loyalty of its customer base. God (Steve Jobs) rarely
touches the customers.

However, the Apple religion is about being different, and better quality
than the other religion.

The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.

You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.

The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.


> It is easy to see why people might get involved in the VAX or VMS
> religion since these platforms were so damned reliable. Both DEC and
> Compaq knew it so kept the prices high.

In the 1980s, when the VMS religion grew strong, ut was quite similar to
Apple: be different and choose something than it better than IBM. We al
cheered seeing the little guy (Digital) beat the giant. Little did we
know that Digital became a giant.

The part about cheering about VMS winnning is gone now. I think the last
couple years removed any hope that HP would let VMS fight for new business.

All that is left now is the pride in VMS being a high quality system
that was well thought out back in the 1980s.

> But like VMS based
> products, Macs are more expensive that their Windows counter parts
> (and here I am talking about Intel based Macs with Core i7 processors)

The "more expensive" portion falls apart when you customize the PC to
have the same features as the Mac. PCs have a much lower entry price,
but when you load them up with the same features as the Mac, the price
gets very close (if not higher).

But yeah, there is an "Apple tax".  Just like you pay for the tiger icon
in front of a jaguar, you pay for the lighted Apple logo on the laptop.


> 1) DEC screwed up big-time by chasing some of their Seattle employees
> into the waiting arms of Bill gates

DEC screwed up big time. Period. End of story.


> 2) ex-DEC employees at Microsoft did, to the PC industry, what DEC did
> to the minicomputer industry (made it respectable).

There is a major difference between Microsoft and DEC. Microsoft is a
marketing driven company with marketing dictating what features need to
be added. Digital, having no marketing, was more driven by the needs of
customers and by ideas from its engineers.

Note that Apple is also a marketing driven company. Having transparent
menu backgrounds (especially with the "Dock") is absolutely annoying.
But it made for a great deal of "Ohhh, Wow ! from the audience when
Steve Jobs presented this tehnology a few years back.  And there isn't a
way to turn it off.


> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.

No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare was
so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases that
were lackluster.

And it appears that XP is to Windows what 5.5-2 was to VMS. The one
stabel release people stay on.


> it. The Vista fiasco was supposedly caused by a combination of lax
> management (no more Bill Gates) along with the retirement of ex-DEC
> employees (they actually had to bring Dave Cutler back from retirement
> to move a few things along).

I think XP was the exception at Microsoft. It was forced to make
something that worked. (in fact, the virus prooblem had gootten so out
of hand that Microsoft had to issues a "SP" (patch) which turned XP
respectable and closed all the opened ports that made it so easy to
infect a Windows computer.

Vista was back at the "marketing" force, except that it failed because
they added so many new features that Vista didnt run on existing PCs.

This is where Apple is pretty good: adding features that don't weigh
down the system too much. It is a shame that many of those features are
only worth anything during the keynote address to impress the audience
and have no value during day to day use. But many features do have a lot
of value.


> Will I ever trade in an OpenVMS system for a Windows system? Not
> anytime soon, 

I am in the process of moving to OS-X. Quite a learning process. It is
still too early for me to fairly compare both because I have yet to
learn a lot more on OS-X to be at the same level of confort as I am with
VMS. Just because things are different doesn't mean they aren't as good.

But in terms of security, I certaintly don't feel comfortable with OS-X.
It lacks proper intrusion system (one that doesn't disable accounts
permanently). It also lacks OPCOM. A real little jewell for VMS. There
may be one syslog on OS-X, but there are different log files.  Some
errors for Apache (such as if it finds a syntax error in a config file)
go to the main system log, but the rest goes to the Apache log.

There are management tools which are very neat for the Xserve. But they
need a little extra touch to make them really trustable. For instance,
the GUY System Admin tool should have a button in the DSN tab to "don't
screw with my zone files". By default, it takes the info you enter n the
gui to create/update zone files. It has itw onw store of information
used for the GUI and from that, it generates the zone files for Bind9.
This is neat for a newbie who doesn't know what Bind/DNS is, but a pain
for a more experienced system manager who isporting existing zone files
to OS-X.

I often fell they should hire someone like Hoff to put some VMS stuff
into the Xserve version of OS-X.

On 31-12-2009 14:22, John Vottero wrote:
> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message
> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>
>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>> formats.
>
> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?

VMS certainly has a lot of proprietary formats.

But somehow I think that the problem is not the proprietary
formats but instead the company behind them.

Arne

<VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero" 
> <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>"Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>> formats.
>>
>>Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>
> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>
> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.

I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which 
is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
 

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message 
news:001c305f$0$28514$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Neil Rieck wrote:
>>
>> You are correct about people looking upon technology as a religion. I
>> was once a huge fan of the Apple religion until I watched Apple make a
>> series of product changes which proved to me that Apple management was
>> less involved in the Apple religion than their customers
>
> I would agree with that. Apple simply fosters te religion and then takes
> advantage of the loyalty of its customer base. God (Steve Jobs) rarely
> touches the customers.
>
> However, the Apple religion is about being different, and better quality
> than the other religion.
>
> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.

If Windows was about "not being different", they would have stuck with Java 
instead of inventing the .NET Framework.

>
> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>

That's not what I see.  Everything that I see is about doing something 
better.

One of the things that made OpenVMS great was the OpenVMS Calling Standard 
which enable mixed language development.  This enabled the creation of a 
large set of system services, libraries and utilities which could all be 
written in any language and called from any language.

Microsoft created the Common Language Runtime (CLR) which improved on the 
OpenVMS Calling Standard and extended it to support object oriented 
environments.  This enabled the creation of the .NET Framework which is a 
large collection of services, libraries and utilities (and it's growing 
fast!).

Look at PowerShell, the Microsoft Engineer that created PowerShell is an 
ex-Digit who admits that DCL was one of the inspirations for PowerShell. 
PowerShell is a huge improvement over any other command-line environment.

I work on Windows because it provides a better development environment than 
anything else that I've seen.  If I want to develop an app for the Mac, what 
are my choices?  C++, Java and Hypercard?

> The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less

That's because it's logic, not religion.

> convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
> blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>
>
[snip]
>
>> 2) ex-DEC employees at Microsoft did, to the PC industry, what DEC did
>> to the minicomputer industry (made it respectable).
>
> There is a major difference between Microsoft and DEC. Microsoft is a
> marketing driven company with marketing dictating what features need to
> be added. Digital, having no marketing, was more driven by the needs of
> customers and by ideas from its engineers.

You have to have both marketing and product.  The main difference I see 
between DEC and Microsoft is that Microsoft is willing to address their own 
weaknesses.  Microsoft has (and does) put huge amounts of effort into 
improving the security of their products.  DEC wouldn't even admit that they 
had a marketing problem.


John Vottero
 

In article <fzt%m.85$Ef7.84@newsfe07.iad>,
 "John Vottero" <JVottero@mvpsi.com> wrote:

> I work on Windows because it provides a better development environment than 
> anything else that I've seen.  If I want to develop an app for the Mac, what 
> are my choices?  C++, Java and Hypercard?

On the Mac nowadays, you'd use Objective-C and Cocoa.

Hypercard is long since dead:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard>

although my search also picked up a product called SuperCard, which may 
be of interest to long term Mac users.

<http://mac360.com/index.php/mac360/comments/did_you_think_apples_hyperca
rd_was_dead_almost/>

-- 
Paul Sture

Paul Sture wrote:

> On the Mac nowadays, you'd use Objective-C and Cocoa.

Mac also has standard C compiler. And supports modern X toolkits such as
GTK.  (not sure if GTK is provided by Apple or if it comes wirth other
applications such as Wireshark.

On 01-01-2010 16:12, John Vottero wrote:
> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
> news:001c305f$0$28514$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>> Neil Rieck wrote:
>>>
>>> You are correct about people looking upon technology as a religion. I
>>> was once a huge fan of the Apple religion until I watched Apple make a
>>> series of product changes which proved to me that Apple management was
>>> less involved in the Apple religion than their customers
>>
>> I would agree with that. Apple simply fosters te religion and then takes
>> advantage of the loyalty of its customer base. God (Steve Jobs) rarely
>> touches the customers.
>>
>> However, the Apple religion is about being different, and better quality
>> than the other religion.
>>
>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
>
> If Windows was about "not being different", they would have stuck with
> Java instead of inventing the .NET Framework.

They had some legal problems with SUN.

>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>
>
> That's not what I see. Everything that I see is about doing something
> better.
>
> One of the things that made OpenVMS great was the OpenVMS Calling
> Standard which enable mixed language development. This enabled the
> creation of a large set of system services, libraries and utilities
> which could all be written in any language and called from any language.
>
> Microsoft created the Common Language Runtime (CLR) which improved on
> the OpenVMS Calling Standard and extended it to support object oriented
> environments. This enabled the creation of the .NET Framework which is a
> large collection of services, libraries and utilities (and it's growing
> fast!).

CLR (or actually CTS) provides the same for a modern development
environment as VMS calling standard did a couple of decades ago.

But I don't think there is any direct inspiration. Anders H has as far
as I know no VMS background at all.

And even though it was not pushed by SUN, then the JVM had already
showed the concept in the late 90's by allowing mixing of Java code,
Ada code (JGnat) and Python code (Jython).

Arne

On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.

MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
package etc..

> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
 >
 > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
 > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
 > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.

Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles. comp.os.vms
is not where you find them though.

>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>
> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare was
> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases that
> were lackluster.

People were quite happy with 98 SE.

>> it. The Vista fiasco was supposedly caused by a combination of lax
>> management (no more Bill Gates) along with the retirement of ex-DEC
>> employees (they actually had to bring Dave Cutler back from retirement
>> to move a few things along).
>
> I think XP was the exception at Microsoft. It was forced to make
> something that worked. (in fact, the virus prooblem had gootten so out
> of hand that Microsoft had to issues a "SP" (patch) which turned XP
> respectable and closed all the opened ports that made it so easy to
> infect a Windows computer.
>
> Vista was back at the "marketing" force, except that it failed because
> they added so many new features that Vista didnt run on existing PCs.

Most Windows version were actually quite popular with the users.

The only non-popular Windows version I know of is ME.

Even the much criticized Vista is the second most selling OS version in
history.

Arne

On 29-12-2009 22:34, JF Mezei wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> MS has been actively supporting open formats
>> in the web world: HTTP, HTML, SOAP, WS-whatever etc..
>
> Microsoft has been actively promoting its own proprietary *variations*
> on accepted formats and paying/pushing web sites to adopt those features
> so that those who used non Mocrosoft products would have problems
> accessing those sites.

Care to mention the specific variations for HTTP, SOAP and WS
let us take WS-S?

Arne

In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3352@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
><VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
>news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero" 
>> <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>"Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>> formats.
>>>
>>>Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>
>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>
>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>
>I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which 
>is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!

You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
to describe WEENDOZE.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
> 
> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
> package etc..
> 
>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>  >
>  > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>  > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
>  > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
> 
> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles. comp.os.vms
> is not where you find them though.
> 
>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>
>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare was
>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases that
>> were lackluster.
> 
> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
> 
W/98SE wasn't too bad.  W/2K was better.  It still provided numerous 
opportunities for the authors of "malware".

W/XP was better still.  There were, and still are, security fixes to be 
applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.

I haven't tried Vista yet.  I may never try it.  W/XP meets my needs.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3352@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero" 
>>> <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>> formats.
>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>
>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which 
>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
> 
> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
> to describe WEENDOZE.
> 

You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been 
using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran 
Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!

In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3352@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero" 
>>>> <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>> formats.
>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>
>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which 
>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>> 
>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>> 
>
>You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been 
>using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran 
>Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!

Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
>>
>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>> package etc..
>>
>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. Their
>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>> >
>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>
>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles. comp.os.vms
>> is not where you find them though.
>>
>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>
>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare was
>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases that
>>> were lackluster.
>>
>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>
> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>
> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>
> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.

Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.

Arne

On 01-01-2010 18:54, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<THs%m.3839$Gf3.3352@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero"<JVottero@mvpsi.com>  writes:
>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG>  wrote in message
>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>> In article<CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>> <JVottero@mvpsi.com>  writes:
>>>> "Michael Kraemer"<M.Kraemer@gsi.de>  wrote in message
>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>> formats.
>>>>
>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>
>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>
>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>
>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>
> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
> to describe WEENDOZE.

Windows is a pretty big OS with a lot of different features.

I am surprised that you find all of them crap.

Arne

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3352@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero" 
>>>>> <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>
>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which 
>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>
>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been 
>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran 
>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
> 
> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
> company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
> 

Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to 
read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a month 
I print checks to pay my bills.

What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a 
photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and 
the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might* 
succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!

If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4 
(VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha 
systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for 
anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
>>>
>>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>>> package etc..
>>>
>>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better. 
>>>> Their
>>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>> >
>>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
>>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>>
>>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles. comp.os.vms
>>> is not where you find them though.
>>>
>>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
>>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>>
>>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare was
>>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases 
>>>> that
>>>> were lackluster.
>>>
>>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>>
>> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
>> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>>
>> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>>
>> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
> 
> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
> 
> Arne
> 

And I may very well install W/XP anyway!

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> On 01-01-2010 18:54, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<THs%m.3839$Gf3.3352@newsfe22.iad>, "John 
>> Vottero"<JVottero@mvpsi.com>  writes:
>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG>  wrote in message
>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>> In article<CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>> <JVottero@mvpsi.com>  writes:
>>>>> "Michael Kraemer"<M.Kraemer@gsi.de>  wrote in message
>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>
>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>
>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>
>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems 
>>> which
>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>
>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>> to describe WEENDOZE.
> 
> Windows is a pretty big OS with a lot of different features.
> 
> I am surprised that you find all of them crap.
> 
> Arne
> 

I think that, for Brian, it's a matter of religious belief.  Heretics 
will be burned at the stake!

Arne Vajh�j wrote:

> Windows is a pretty big OS with a lot of different features.
> I am surprised that you find all of them crap.


Come on, it,s Mr VAXman that we're talking about ! He has strong
principles against Microsoft and Windows. He has not drunk the MS
Kool-Aid as many here seems to have done in recent times.

And when you despise a corporation, it is very hard to see anything
positive in their products.

On 01-01-2010 20:22, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the
>>>>> world, it
>>>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone
>>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>>>> package etc..
>>>>
>>>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better.
>>>>> Their
>>>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>>>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
>>>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>>>
>>>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles.
>>>> comp.os.vms
>>>> is not where you find them though.
>>>>
>>>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at Microsoft
>>>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>>>
>>>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare
>>>>> was
>>>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases
>>>>> that
>>>>> were lackluster.
>>>>
>>>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>>>
>>> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
>>> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>>>
>>> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
>>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>>>
>>> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
>>
>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>
> And I may very well install W/XP anyway!

But why bother. If it is a new PC it has the power to run 7.
And you will have better chances of getting drivers for new
hardware and running new versions of applications that requires
new OS plus much better 64 bit version plus certain extra
security features.

Arne

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> On 01-01-2010 20:22, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>> On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the
>>>>>> world, it
>>>>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone
>>>>>> else.
>>>>>
>>>>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>>>>> package etc..
>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better.
>>>>>> Their
>>>>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>>>>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
>>>>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles.
>>>>> comp.os.vms
>>>>> is not where you find them though.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at 
>>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>>>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> were lackluster.
>>>>>
>>>>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>>>>
>>>> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
>>>> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>>>>
>>>> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
>>>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
>>>
>>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>
>> And I may very well install W/XP anyway!
> 
> But why bother. If it is a new PC it has the power to run 7.
> And you will have better chances of getting drivers for new
> hardware and running new versions of applications that requires
> new OS plus much better 64 bit version plus certain extra
> security features.
> 
> Arne

Better the devil I know than the devil I don't!  Besides, everything 
I've heard about Windows Vista has been negative.  I'm sure Microsoft 
loves it but does anyone else?

On 01-01-2010 21:00, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 01-01-2010 20:22, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the
>>>>>>> world, it
>>>>>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone
>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>>>>>> package etc..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better.
>>>>>>> Their
>>>>>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>>>>>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles.
>>>>>> comp.os.vms
>>>>>> is not where you find them though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at
>>>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>>>>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> were lackluster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>>>>>
>>>>> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
>>>>> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>>>>>
>>>>> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
>>>>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
>>>>
>>>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>>
>>> And I may very well install W/XP anyway!
>>
>> But why bother. If it is a new PC it has the power to run 7.
>> And you will have better chances of getting drivers for new
>> hardware and running new versions of applications that requires
>> new OS plus much better 64 bit version plus certain extra
>> security features.
>
> Better the devil I know than the devil I don't! Besides, everything I've
> heard about Windows Vista has been negative. I'm sure Microsoft loves it
> but does anyone else?

There are people that like Vista.

And 7 is actually relative popular.

Arne

On 01-01-2010 20:45, JF Mezei wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> Windows is a pretty big OS with a lot of different features.
>> I am surprised that you find all of them crap.
>
> Come on, it,s Mr VAXman that we're talking about ! He has strong
> principles against Microsoft and Windows. He has not drunk the MS
> Kool-Aid as many here seems to have done in recent times.
>
> And when you despise a corporation, it is very hard to see anything
> positive in their products.

"It's Nothing Personal - It's Just Business"

Arne

John Vottero schrieb:
> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message 

> 
> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems? 
> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?

I wouldn't care much whether an OS is proprietary or open source,
as long as it is affordable and does the job.
The annoying thing with M$, however, is that they flood
the net (and IT in general) with proprietary,
often undocumented formats, which forces people
to buy Windoze PCs. And they do so with full intention.
That's a drug dealer's attitude, IMHO.
I'm not aware of other companies doing that to a similar extent.
Take Adobe as a counter example, they don't
force you to buy their products just to view
PS or PDF. Both formats are well documented
and thus several readers exist, on a lot of platforms.

Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
> On 01-01-2010 20:22, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>
>>> On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the
>>>>>> world, it
>>>>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone
>>>>>> else.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>>>>> package etc..
>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better.
>>>>>> Their
>>>>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>>>>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
>>>>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles.
>>>>> comp.os.vms
>>>>> is not where you find them though.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at 
>>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>>>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> were lackluster.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>>>>
>>>> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
>>>> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>>>>
>>>> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
>>>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>
>>
>> And I may very well install W/XP anyway!
> 
> 
> But why bother. If it is a new PC it has the power to run 7.
> And you will have better chances of getting drivers for new
> hardware and running new versions of applications that requires
> new OS plus much better 64 bit version plus certain extra
> security features.
> 
> Arne

I wonder if this is a VMS or a Windoze advocacy group.

Arne Vajh�j schrieb:

> 
> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.

"computer" != Windoze PC.
If I'd buy a Mac, it would run MacOS.

Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:

> 
> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a 
> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and 
> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might* 
> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!

And what about the open source browsers and email clients which made
it to VMS?

In article <h6idnWpVydP1A6PWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3352@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5380@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero" 
>>>>>> <JVottero@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which 
>>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>>
>>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been 
>>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran 
>>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>> 
>> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
>> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
>> company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
>> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>> 
>
>Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to 
>read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a month 
>I print checks to pay my bills.

Mail => VMS; if it has attachments, I move that email to a special folder
so that I can then read that email on either my Linux laptop or on my Mac.

Newsgroups => VMS; I don't frequent the alt.binaries.sex.pervsion-of-the-
month-club newsgroups so I have no need whatsoever for a graphical reader.

The lovely Mrs. VAXman pays bills via the bank's on-line billing system on
a Mac compliments of its wonderful Apple Universal Access features; ergo, 
no checks and no need to even print checks; oh, and certainly no need for
WEENDOZE.

Audio, music, graphics, video, composition, etc.  Mac has it hands-down to
WEENDOZE.  Resistance is futile. ;)  I sat in the Apple store at the mall
during the holidays as the rest of the family was shopped.  (I hate shop-
ping and the gout was acting up.)  Macs, MacBooks and MacBookPros were on
the way out the door faster than I could count them.


>What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a 
>photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and 
>the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might* 
>succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!

I've extracted attached photos from VMS mail and decoded them for viewing
on VMS.  Most of the time, such attachments are just stupid things that a
friend or relative has decided I too must view.  I simply move these to a
special folder and view them on my Linux laptop or on my Mac.  For *REAL*
phtography, I use my Mac and Aperture and, of course, my *REAL* cameras;
not point-and-click toys like you find at WalMart, Target and Best Buys. 
I often move these (and other) images to the Linux Laptop where I will do
some additional manipulation with GIMP before putting the images on a web
site.  No WEENDOZE.  Reading the email on VMS, I can quickly see if said
attachment is any proprietary M$ format to wit the message is forwarded to
the wastebasket folder.


>If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4 
>(VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha 
>systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for 
>anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.

If I want to do some programming, I open a term on my Linux laptop or on
my Mac.  With the aid of a handful of key mappings in .Xmodmap, I can do
everything on these two platforms that I can on true VT... and I can even
use the alternate keypads on these and have EDT functions of delete-char
and delete-word in the SAME PHYSICAL LOCATIONS that they would above the
[enter] key on the VT's LK keyboard.  I'm waiting to hear how WEENDOZErz
do that on their PeeCees.

I have also installed 'latd' and 'mopd' so I can access terminal servers 
and other DEC devices on the network.  Can you do that on WEENDOZE?  With-
out paying Billzebub? 

FWIW, my father-in-law bought my kid a Nintendo-Wii for Christmas.  It's
Linux.  I've downloaded a number of apps, stored them on a SD flash card
and run them.  The browser on the Wii is Opera.  The interface (the wand
used to point) is a bit more cumbersome than a mouse but it does work.  I
was able to get it to recognize all of my LK-463 keys, but I kept the HP
PeeCee keyboard shipped with an Itanium connected to the Wii for the kid
to use.  NO WEENDOZE again...  When not in use, the Wii makes a very nice
digital picture frame for displaying my concert photos (taken without the
use of toy cameras OR toy OSs) as well as some of the astro-porn I've col-
lected over the years.  I still need to work out getting streaming radio
to play via the Wii so I can monitor Aural Moon when I'm upstairs, but I
did need to let the kid play some of the  mindless games that the device
was intended for since it *IS* his toy; not mine.

BTW, my kid also received an ASUS EeePC from Santa.  Apparently, he too
loathes WEENDOZE as much as I.  Santa painstakingly removed the M$ virus
that was infecting the hard drive of this Netbook and installed Ubuntu on
it.  He even removed the WEENDOZE inside warning stickers and covered the
WEENDOZE swastika key on the keyboard using some free stickers available
for the asking from:  http://system76.com/article_info.php?articles_id=9
Apparenlty, the M$ monopolistic arm twisting didn't work on Santa's and
his elves.

My kids hate WEENDOZE as much as I.  They are also, after raising quite
a commotion at a school board meeting, not permitted to be indoctrinated
by the school system into using WEENDOZE.  Too much indoctrination in the
schools today.

Remember, this is comp.os.VMS; not comp.os.M$.

(Typed from Ubuntu)

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <4b3e874d$0$281$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> On 01-01-2010 16:12, John Vottero wrote:
>> If Windows was about "not being different", they would have stuck with
>> Java instead of inventing the .NET Framework.
> 
> They had some legal problems with SUN.

   There legal problems stemmed from trying not to keep to the standard,
   which Sun owns.  Typical MicroSoft attitude:  "do what WE say".

In article <4b3e89be$0$270$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
> 
> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
> package etc..
> 

   The Windows religion is not about doing the same stuff as everyone
   else.  It is about doing things the Microsoft proprietary way, even
   if they have to break standards to make sure other systems can't
   talk to theirs.

In article <28ydnYkBfeJND6PWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:

> W/XP was better still.  There were, and still are, security fixes to be 
> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.

   Which is why I only get about 12 security patches a month?

In article <4b3e9ca4$0$274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.

   No.  It's much more likely to come with OS X.  Linux variants would
   be the second most likely.  Trashing the OS and installing VMS would
   be the third most likely, since it would probably be a used VMS
   capable system.

In article <4b3e9cf1$0$274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
> Windows is a pretty big OS with a lot of different features.

  Windows is a big pile of crap with a lot of different security holes.

In article <h6idnWpVydP1A6PWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a 
> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and 
> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might* 
> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!

   Generally works fine when I use mozilla on VMS to read my email. 
   You're decades behind reality.

In article <nMudnTlGNcckNaPWnZ2dnUVZ_jRi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
> Better the devil I know than the devil I don't!  Besides, everything 
> I've heard about Windows Vista has been negative.  I'm sure Microsoft 
> loves it but does anyone else?

    Microsoft loves it?  They've already dumped it for 7.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Newsgroups => VMS; I don't frequent the alt.binaries.sex.pervsion-of-the-
> month-club newsgroups so I have no need whatsoever for a graphical reader.

That is because you get your fantasies/dreams from:

> I sat in the Apple store at the mall
> during the holidays as the rest of the family was shopped.  (I hate shop-
> ping and the gout was acting up.)  Macs, MacBooks and MacBookPros were on
> the way out the door faster than I could count them.


:-) :-) :-)



In terms of VMS Mail, it just isn't worth the trouble. However, using a
GUI mail reader does require you go through the trouble of finding the
config parameters to disable displaying of any HTML or other evil
formats (including javascript).

What I would like to see in GUI email clients is text-only by default,
and you have a button to render the message in its full format when
needed (for instancem, when you get an email from someone you know).

In article <00bb7cdf$0$26803$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Newsgroups => VMS; I don't frequent the alt.binaries.sex.pervsion-of-the-
>> month-club newsgroups so I have no need whatsoever for a graphical reader.
>
>That is because you get your fantasies/dreams from:
>
>> I sat in the Apple store at the mall
>> during the holidays as the rest of the family was shopped.  (I hate shop-
>> ping and the gout was acting up.)  Macs, MacBooks and MacBookPros were on
>> the way out the door faster than I could count them.
>
>
>:-) :-) :-)

That was reality, not fantasy.



>In terms of VMS Mail, it just isn't worth the trouble. However, using a
>GUI mail reader does require you go through the trouble of finding the
>config parameters to disable displaying of any HTML or other evil
>formats (including javascript).
>
>What I would like to see in GUI email clients is text-only by default,
>and you have a button to render the message in its full format when
>needed (for instancem, when you get an email from someone you know).

I have PLAIN-TEXT as the default in Evolution Mail under Ubuntu Linux.
It give me the option of viewing the HTML content (if available) and
the attachments but the message is text.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

On 02-01-2010 14:54, Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article<4b3e874d$0$281$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>> On 01-01-2010 16:12, John Vottero wrote:
>>> If Windows was about "not being different", they would have stuck with
>>> Java instead of inventing the .NET Framework.
>>
>> They had some legal problems with SUN.
>
>     There legal problems stemmed from trying not to keep to the standard,
>     which Sun owns.  Typical MicroSoft attitude:  "do what WE say".

They made a big mistake. One thing is adding extensions to the
standard. They could have gotten away with that. But not implementing
all the standard features go them in problems. And it cost them. 20M$
if I remember correct.

Arne

On 02-01-2010 14:56, Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article<4b3e89be$0$270$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the world, it
>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone else.
>>
>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>> package etc..
>
>     The Windows religion is not about doing the same stuff as everyone
>     else.  It is about doing things the Microsoft proprietary way, even
>     if they have to break standards to make sure other systems can't
>     talk to theirs.

You have never seen a Windows system and a non-Windows communicate ??

Arne

On 02-01-2010 14:59, Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article<4b3e9ca4$0$274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>
>     No.  It's much more likely to come with OS X.  Linux variants would
>     be the second most likely.  Trashing the OS and installing VMS would
>     be the third most likely, since it would probably be a used VMS
>     capable system.

Given that the context was Windows then ...

Arne

On 02-01-2010 15:06, Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article<nMudnTlGNcckNaPWnZ2dnUVZ_jRi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
>> Better the devil I know than the devil I don't!  Besides, everything
>> I've heard about Windows Vista has been negative.  I'm sure Microsoft
>> loves it but does anyone else?
>
>      Microsoft loves it?  They've already dumped it for 7.

I assume that HP loves VMS 8.2 even though they did release 8.3 ...

Arne

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <28ydnYkBfeJND6PWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
>> W/XP was better still.  There were, and still are, security fixes to be 
>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
> 
>    Which is why I only get about 12 security patches a month?
> 

All I can say for sure is that I've been running it for four or five 
years without problems.

I know from experience how bad it *can* be.  My VMS systems did what 
such systems do, they sat there and worked.  I had a lot of free time. 
Since I had available time, I was asked to take over the job of 
immunizing our 300 or so PCs against some worm whose name I forget.  It 
pinged every address in our address family in order to locate machines 
to attack. We had W/98/2e as our standard for desktops and people using 
laptops on the road.  I spent months bringing those PCs up to W/2K, 
service pack 4 and up to date on patches.

I may just be lucky that I'm behind a LinkSys BEFR81 router/fire wall. 
   It won't let anything through that is not a response to a request 
from inside my network.  I keep my Norton Anti-Virus up-to-date and 
haven't had any malware problems for several years now.

My router reports an average of three attempts per second to open 
connections from outside!  A few of those might be due to fumble 
fingered typing of an address but I'd bet that 99% plus are malicious! 
It's a jungle out there!!!!

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <h6idnWpVydP1A6PWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a 
>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and 
>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might* 
>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
> 
>    Generally works fine when I use mozilla on VMS to read my email. 
>    You're decades behind reality.
> 

I haven't used VMS Mail for five and a half years now and I've NEVER 
used it at home!  I'm running the Thunderbird mail/news client on my PC.
I also use it to read comp.os.vms and the other newsgroups that I follow.

On 02-01-2010 05:03, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> John Vottero schrieb:
>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>
> I wouldn't care much whether an OS is proprietary or open source,
> as long as it is affordable and does the job.
> The annoying thing with M$, however, is that they flood
> the net (and IT in general) with proprietary,
> often undocumented formats, which forces people
> to buy Windoze PCs. And they do so with full intention.
> That's a drug dealer's attitude, IMHO.
> I'm not aware of other companies doing that to a similar extent.
> Take Adobe as a counter example, they don't
> force you to buy their products just to view
> PS or PDF. Both formats are well documented
> and thus several readers exist, on a lot of platforms.

And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.

And they have publicized their formats as well, so
other can implement them.

So the difference is ??

Arne

On 02-01-2010 05:25, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>> On 01-01-2010 20:22, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the
>>>>>>> world, it
>>>>>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone
>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>>>>>> package etc..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better.
>>>>>>> Their
>>>>>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>>>>>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers  just
>>>>>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles.
>>>>>> comp.os.vms
>>>>>> is not where you find them though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at
>>>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>>>>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> were lackluster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>>>>>
>>>>> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
>>>>> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>>>>>
>>>>> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
>>>>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
>>>>
>>>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>>
>>> And I may very well install W/XP anyway!
>>
>> But why bother. If it is a new PC it has the power to run 7.
>> And you will have better chances of getting drivers for new
>> hardware and running new versions of applications that requires
>> new OS plus much better 64 bit version plus certain extra
>> security features.
>
> I wonder if this is a VMS or a Windoze advocacy group.

I am pretty sure that if you count over a longer period then
Windows badmouthing group would be more accurate.

Arne

On 02-01-2010 05:28, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>
> "computer" != Windoze PC.
> If I'd buy a Mac, it would run MacOS.

Possible.

But the poster I replied to said that he was a Windows user.

Arne

In article <4b3fef18$0$275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>On 02-01-2010 05:28, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>
>> "computer" != Windoze PC.
>> If I'd buy a Mac, it would run MacOS.
>
>Possible.
>
>But the poster I replied to said that he was a Windows user.

I'm a windows user too but this time of year, with the current temperature
at 20degF, I prefer to keep them closed.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

Arne Vajh�j wrote:

> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.

Do they still do that ?

They came out with some funky new word format (pretends to be XML, but
it is unreadable binary junk). To read one such document, I had to
download some converter from Microsoft which would then create a new
file which could be read.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> I'm a windows user too but this time of year, with the current temperature
> at 20degF, I prefer to keep them closed.

Since you refuse to do windows, must you hire and MSCE to clean your
windows in the spring ? :-) :-) :-) :-)

VAXman- schrieb:
> In article <4b3fef18$0$275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
>>On 02-01-2010 05:28, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>
>>>Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>
>>>>Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>>
>>>"computer" != Windoze PC.
>>>If I'd buy a Mac, it would run MacOS.
>>
>>Possible.
>>
>>But the poster I replied to said that he was a Windows user.
> 
> 
> I'm a windows user too but this time of year, with the current temperature
> at 20degF, I prefer to keep them closed.
> 

Rumour has it that
in a world without fences and walls
nobody needs Gates and windows.

VAXman- schrieb:
> In article <4b3fef18$0$275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
>>On 02-01-2010 05:28, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>
>>>Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>
>>>>Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>>
>>>"computer" != Windoze PC.
>>>If I'd buy a Mac, it would run MacOS.
>>
>>Possible.
>>
>>But the poster I replied to said that he was a Windows user.
> 
> 
> I'm a windows user too but this time of year, with the current temperature
> at 20degF, I prefer to keep them closed.
> 

rumour has it that
in a world without fences and walls
nobody needs Gates and windows.

"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:nMudnTlGNcckNaPWnZ2dnUVZ_jRi4p2d@giganews.com...
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 01-01-2010 20:22, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the
>>>>>>> world, it
>>>>>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone
>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>>>>>> package etc..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better.
>>>>>>> Their
>>>>>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>>>>>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers 
>>>>>> > just
>>>>>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles.
>>>>>> comp.os.vms
>>>>>> is not where you find them though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at 
>>>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>>>>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> were lackluster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>>>>>
>>>>> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
>>>>> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>>>>>
>>>>> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
>>>>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
>>>>
>>>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>>
>>> And I may very well install W/XP anyway!
>>
>> But why bother. If it is a new PC it has the power to run 7.
>> And you will have better chances of getting drivers for new
>> hardware and running new versions of applications that requires
>> new OS plus much better 64 bit version plus certain extra
>> security features.
>>
>> Arne
>
> Better the devil I know than the devil I don't!  Besides, everything I've 
> heard about Windows Vista has been negative.  I'm sure Microsoft loves it 
> but does anyone else?

I like Windows 7 more than Vista and I liked Vista more than XP.
 

On 02-01-2010 20:52, JF Mezei wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>
> Do they still do that ?

Yes.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3657ce88-7cfa-457a-9aec-f4f827f20cac&displaylang=en
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=1CD6ACF9-CE06-4E1C-8DCF-F33F669DBC3A&displaylang=en
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=048DC840-14E1-467D-8DCA-19D2A8FD7485&displaylang=en

> They came out with some funky new word format (pretends to be XML, but
> it is unreadable binary junk). To read one such document, I had to
> download some converter from Microsoft which would then create a new
> file which could be read.

OOXML is XML.

Complex XML, but valid XML. And absolutely text.

But but but - did you unzip the container before
looking at it??

Arne

Arne Vajh�j wrote:

> But but but - did you unzip the container before
> looking at it??

If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????

How the <4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL> is one
supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?

And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
XML format readable by some other application ?

In article <00bbce4f$0$23699$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> I'm a windows user too but this time of year, with the current temperature
>> at 20degF, I prefer to keep them closed.
>
>Since you refuse to do windows, must you hire and MSCE to clean your
>windows in the spring ? :-) :-) :-) :-)

That would be a Manual Spring Cleaning Executive.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <hhou2i$u3l$00$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>VAXman- schrieb:
>> In article <4b3fef18$0$275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> 
>>>On 02-01-2010 05:28, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>
>>>>Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>>Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>>>
>>>>"computer" != Windoze PC.
>>>>If I'd buy a Mac, it would run MacOS.
>>>
>>>Possible.
>>>
>>>But the poster I replied to said that he was a Windows user.
>> 
>> 
>> I'm a windows user too but this time of year, with the current temperature
>> at 20degF, I prefer to keep them closed.
>> 
>
>Rumour has it that
>in a world without fences and walls
>nobody needs Gates and windows.

That would be an open world.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

Arne Vajh�j schrieb:

> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
> 
> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
> other can implement them.
> 
> So the difference is ??

that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
was completed. About fifteen years ago
you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.

Arne Vajh�j schrieb:

> 
> I am pretty sure that if you count over a longer period then
> Windows badmouthing group would be more accurate.

And so what? This NG *ought* to be a non-Windows group.

Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
> 
>>
>> I am pretty sure that if you count over a longer period then
>> Windows badmouthing group would be more accurate.
> 
> And so what? This NG *ought* to be a non-Windows group.
> 
> 

Well, it is. But that is not the same as an *anti*-Windows group.
Beeing anti-Windows just shows that you have completly lost
contact with reality, and that isn't any good for VMS either...

In article <hhpqpc$jfb$00$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>
>> 
>> I am pretty sure that if you count over a longer period then
>> Windows badmouthing group would be more accurate.
>
>And so what? This NG *ought* to be a non-Windows group.

I'm all for that.  Put up the walls and fences to keep them out. ;)


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>
>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>> looking at it??
>
> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>
> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>  is one
> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>
> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
> XML format readable by some other application ?

A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.

If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
one you will want.

The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
Word.

It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)

To read it then I would also have suggested an office
application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
to read it as well.

Arne

In article <4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>
>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>> looking at it??
>>
>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>
>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>  is one
>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>
>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>
>A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>
>If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>one you will want.
>
>The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>Word.
>
>It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>
>To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>to read it as well.

You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>
>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>> looking at it??
>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>
>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>  is one
>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>
>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>
>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>> one you will want.
>>
>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>> Word.
>>
>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>
>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>> to read it as well.
> 
> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
> 

Why are you asking if Arne said something he abviously didn't say ??

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>
>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>> looking at it??
>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>
>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>  is one
>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>
>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>
>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>> one you will want.
>>
>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>> Word.
>>
>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>
>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>> to read it as well.
> 
> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
> 

You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to 
with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and 
content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!

In article <obydncht8rSnK93WnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>>> looking at it??
>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>>
>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>  is one
>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>>
>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>>
>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>> one you will want.
>>>
>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>> Word.
>>>
>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>>
>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>> to read it as well.
>> 
>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>> 
>
>You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to 
>with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and 
>content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!

Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

On 03-01-2010 09:28, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>
>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>> looking at it??
>>>
>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>
>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>   is one
>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>
>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>
>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>
>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>> one you will want.
>>
>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>> Word.
>>
>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>
>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>> to read it as well.
>
> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.

Not .DOC but .DOCX !

Arne

On 03-01-2010 10:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<obydncht8rSnK93WnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article<4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>>>> looking at it??
>>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>>>
>>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>   is one
>>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>>>
>>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>>>
>>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>>> one you will want.
>>>>
>>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>>> Word.
>>>>
>>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>>>
>>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>>> to read it as well.
>>>
>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>>
>> You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to
>> with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and
>> content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!
>
> Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.

The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content while VMS and
to some extent DOS is that application implies content and extension
usually can be omitted because the application will apply the default.

I very much prefer the VMS way for command line, but it is
not easily applied to GUI.

Arne

On 03-01-2010 11:03, Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> On 03-01-2010 09:28, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>>> looking at it??
>>>>
>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>>
>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL> is one
>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip
>>>> archive ?
>>>>
>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>>
>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>>
>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>> one you will want.
>>>
>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>> Word.
>>>
>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>> around 10000 pages of specification. :-)
>>>
>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>> to read it as well.
>>
>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML? I thought it was proprietary M$
>> W(ei)RD.
>
> Not .DOC but .DOCX !

..DOC = default extension for 2003 and earlier
..DOCX = defaukt extension for 2007 and future

Arne

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG mentioned  on 3-1-2010 16:48:

[snip]

>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>>>
>> You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to 
>> with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and 
>> content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!
> 
> Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.


With VMS, you can indeed $RUN any file, but the OS sort of assumes, no 
strike this anthropomorphic description, and instead use: ... but you 
get the most benefit out of a $RUN command if the file you $RUN is 
indeed an executable.

Anyway, you get the idea, it's the humans operating the computer that 
determine what actions are best used on what files. This goes for VMS 
and Windows and Linux alike. And both have sort of implied defaults for 
certains actions and/or file types. Difference is, "activating" a file 
object on Windows can trigger actions based on file type ("extension"), 
but that is by convention only, and is easily overruled by the user. And 
on Windows, you can re-associate the .docx extension with running the 
Unzip program on the file, if you think it is more useful. Likewise, on 
VMS, you can rename all your .EXE files to .TXT and then get stuck with 
$RUN foobar.TXT. Useful? Not around here.

/Wilm

O and BTW, .doc is not zipped XML, but .docx is.

O

On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>
>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>> other can implement them.
>>
>> So the difference is ??
>
> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
> was completed. About fifteen years ago
> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.

True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
etc. products.

Arne

On 03-01-2010 05:16, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>> I am pretty sure that if you count over a longer period then
>> Windows badmouthing group would be more accurate.
>
> And so what? This NG *ought* to be a non-Windows group.

Sure.

But some people can't resist the opportunity to do
some MS bashing.

Arne

On Jan 2, 1:16=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jedn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B.=
 Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
> >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3...@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVott.=
...@mvpsi.com> writes:
> >>>> <VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
> >>>>news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
> >>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5...@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
> >>>>> <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
> >>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Krae...@gsi.de> wrote in message
> >>>>>>news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
> >>>>>>> Arne Vajh=F8j schrieb:
>
> >>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possi=
ble.
>
> >>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
> >>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
> >>>>>>> formats.
> >>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary syst=
ems?
> >>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
> >>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>
> >>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with opennes=
s.
> >>>> I agree! =A0Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating syste=
ms which
> >>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
> >>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good. =A0WEENDOZE=
 can
> >>> never be considered good; not even poor! =A0Crap is the proper adject=
ive
> >>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>
> >> You are living in the past Brian! =A0W/XP is quite usable and I have b=
een
> >> using it for several years now. =A0W/2K wasn't all that bad either. =
=A0I ran
> >> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>
> > Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on th=
e
> > few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc. =A0You'd think tha=
t a
> > company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent ar=
t-
> > ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>
> Picky, picky, picky! =A0I don't use Windows for it's looks. =A0I use it t=
o
> read my mail and newsgroups. =A0Sometimes I even send mail. =A0Once a mon=
th
> I print checks to pay my bills.
>
> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
> photograph as an attachment? =A0That's right! It will display the text an=
d
> the photograph! =A0What will VMS do with the same message? =A0It *might*
> succeed in rendering the text. =A0The photograph? =A0Forget it!
>
> If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
> (VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
> systems. =A0I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
> anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.

"What is VMS going to do with email that has a picture in it?"

How soon we forget.

My recollection is that DEC invented Compound Document Architecture in
the mid 1990s. CDA applications supported embedded pictures (and other
embedded documents, even including multimedia). When properly
implemented, the documents could be displayed (and edited) as
graphical documents on a workstation (VMS or DEC UNIX), or in the
absence of a workstation there would be some fall-back format suitable
for display (or processing) as simple character-oriented stuff.

The relevant bundled VMS DECwindows application for mail would be
(rather obviously) DECwindows MAIL, if I remember rightly, although
there was also a "value added" separately licenced VMS DECwindows
corporate-mail client called something like "All in 1 Mail" (but which
was entirely unrelated to the other All-in-1). The underlying message
transport there was X.400, a mail architecture where security,
authentication, non-deniability, compund document support, etc was
built in, unlike SMTP (the legacy email protocol from the teletype
era), where a working and widely accepted version of stuff like that
still hasn't yet been invented. Hence 90%+ (?) of internet mail is
spam.

Obviously you needed a workstation to make best use of these apps, and
DEC management in general saw workstations as high end techy things,
rather than mass market things. Consequently there were very few of
them around internally in DEC, and very few DEC employees got to
understand what they could do.

If DEC HQ had anticipated today's need for multi-megabyte corporate
PowerPoint/DECpresent and similar files to be emailed around,
including not just clipart but embedded sound clips and maybe even
embedded video, things might have turned out a little different.

As it is, CDA begat OLE, and X.400 was largely outlived by SMTP, and
we are where we are. "Cheap" beats "good". Not always, but often
enough.

In article <4B40C18A.2050202@planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <w6.boerhout@planet.nl> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG mentioned  on 3-1-2010 16:48:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>>>>
>>> You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to 
>>> with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and 
>>> content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!
>> 
>> Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.
>
>
>With VMS, you can indeed $RUN any file, but the OS sort of assumes, no 
>strike this anthropomorphic description, and instead use: ... but you 
>get the most benefit out of a $RUN command if the file you $RUN is 
>indeed an executable.

Correct but the file can be called anything.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>
>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>> other can implement them.
>>>
>>> So the difference is ??
>>
>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
> 
> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
> etc. products.
> 
> Arne
> 

ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS.  I'm quite certain that it 
was available about ten years ago.  I'm not sure about now.

I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS.  It's 
damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively 
can output only ASCII text.  You can run it on a workstation but I think 
it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.

OTOH I've used TeX on VMS with output to a laser printer.

On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>
>>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>> other can implement them.
>>>>
>>>> So the difference is ??
>>>
>>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>
>> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>> etc. products.
>
> ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
> was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.

More like 15-20 years ago.

I have had WP on some VMS systems as well.

It worked very well.

And WP was a great word processor in the text world.

Then the text world was replaced by the GUI world.

> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS. It's
> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively
> can output only ASCII text. You can run it on a workstation but I think
> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.

Is text/console more native on VMS than on any *nix?

But X based word processors were never a big success and
definitely not on VMS.

Arne

John Wallace wrote:
> On Jan 2, 1:16 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jedn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3...@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5...@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>>>>> <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Krae...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>>>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>>>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>>>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been
>>>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran
>>>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>>> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
>>> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
>>> company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
>>> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>> Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to
>> read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a month
>> I print checks to pay my bills.
>>
>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and
>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might*
>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
>>
>> If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
>> (VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
>> systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
>> anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
> 
> "What is VMS going to do with email that has a picture in it?"
> 
> How soon we forget.
> 
> My recollection is that DEC invented Compound Document Architecture in
> the mid 1990s. CDA applications supported embedded pictures (and other
> embedded documents, even including multimedia). When properly
> implemented, the documents could be displayed (and edited) as
> graphical documents on a workstation (VMS or DEC UNIX), or in the
> absence of a workstation there would be some fall-back format suitable
> for display (or processing) as simple character-oriented stuff.
> 
But it didn't ship with the O/S.  It was an add on at substantial extra 
cost.  Windows has the capability natively!

In article <nMudnTlGNcckNaPWnZ2dnUVZ_jRi4p2d@giganews.com>,
	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 01-01-2010 20:22, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> On 01-01-2010 19:26, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>> On 31-12-2009 14:44, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>>> The Windows religion is about comforming with the rest of the
>>>>>>> world, it
>>>>>>> is about not being different and doing the same stuff as everyone
>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MS is leading not following when it comes to desktop UI, office
>>>>>> package etc..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You don't see Windows missionaries pushing that Windows is better.
>>>>>>> Their
>>>>>>> only argument is that it is "compatible" because everyone uses it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Windows religion is also not as strong. There is much less
>>>>>> > convinction in it than in the Apple religion. Windows followers just
>>>>>> > blindly buy Windows because tey feel it is the only option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure you do. You just need to be in the pro-Windows circles.
>>>>>> comp.os.vms
>>>>>> is not where you find them though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4) the changes forced upon Intel by the ex-DEC employees at 
>>>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>>> probably helped to make Intel the juggernaut it is today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. It prevented Microsoft from going down fast because its softare
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> so instable that people started to migrate to the Mac fast. Remember
>>>>>>> that between Windows 95 and Windows XP was a slew of other releases
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> were lackluster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People were quite happy with 98 SE.
>>>>>>
>>>>> W/98SE wasn't too bad. W/2K was better. It still provided numerous
>>>>> opportunities for the authors of "malware".
>>>>>
>>>>> W/XP was better still. There were, and still are, security fixes to be
>>>>> applied but XP has proven to be a very solid and stable release.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't tried Vista yet. I may never try it. W/XP meets my needs.
>>>>
>>>> Next time you buy a computer it will most likely come with 7.
>>>
>>> And I may very well install W/XP anyway!
>> 
>> But why bother. If it is a new PC it has the power to run 7.
>> And you will have better chances of getting drivers for new
>> hardware and running new versions of applications that requires
>> new OS plus much better 64 bit version plus certain extra
>> security features.
>> 
>> Arne
> 
> Better the devil I know than the devil I don't!  Besides, everything 
> I've heard about Windows Vista has been negative.  I'm sure Microsoft 
> loves it but does anyone else?

I've been using it without problem almost since it came out.  Most
of the faculty in the department have been using it as well although
they are already making the run to Windows 7.  (Some of them jump on
whatever is newest as soon as it comes out.)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>
>>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>> other can implement them.
>>>>
>>>> So the difference is ??
>>>
>>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>> 
>> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>> etc. products.
>> 
>> Arne
>> 
>
>ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS.  I'm quite certain that it 
>was available about ten years ago.  I'm not sure about now.

VAX and Alpha.  There hasn't been any interest for IA64 so it wasn't
ported.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>> other can implement them.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the difference is ??
>>>>
>>>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>
>>> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>> etc. products.
>>
>> ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>> was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>
>More like 15-20 years ago.

and still available.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <keqdnQhK2NVppNzWnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>John Wallace wrote:
>> On Jan 2, 1:16 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jedn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3...@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5...@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>>>>>> <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Krae...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>>>>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>>>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>>>>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>>>>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been
>>>>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran
>>>>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>>>> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
>>>> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
>>>> company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
>>>> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>>> Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to
>>> read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a month
>>> I print checks to pay my bills.
>>>
>>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
>>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and
>>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might*
>>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
>>>
>>> If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
>>> (VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
>>> systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
>>> anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
>> 
>> "What is VMS going to do with email that has a picture in it?"
>> 
>> How soon we forget.
>> 
>> My recollection is that DEC invented Compound Document Architecture in
>> the mid 1990s. CDA applications supported embedded pictures (and other
>> embedded documents, even including multimedia). When properly
>> implemented, the documents could be displayed (and edited) as
>> graphical documents on a workstation (VMS or DEC UNIX), or in the
>> absence of a workstation there would be some fall-back format suitable
>> for display (or processing) as simple character-oriented stuff.
>> 
>But it didn't ship with the O/S.  It was an add on at substantial extra 
>cost.  Windows has the capability natively!

WEENDOZE didn't have native email capability -- at least, nothing I ever
found.  

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <00A96FDF.8A41CBA5@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>
>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>> looking at it??
>>>
>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>
>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>  is one
>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>
>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>
>>A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>
>>If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>one you will want.
>>
>>The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>Word.
>>
>>It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>
>>To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>to read it as well.
> 
> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
> 

The new format is .docx, which is xml.  I am always amazed at how
many people who always bitched about MS proprietary formats bitch
just as lound about their use of XML.

And, if you hate the idea of someone taking a standard format and
adding proprietary junk to it, take a look at XFDL.  And you can't
blame Gatwes for that one.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On 2010-01-03, Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
> But X based word processors were never a big success and
> definitely not on VMS.
>

Hmm, what about OpenOffice on Linux ? :-)

It's been successful enough to have Microsoft worried. (I'm thinking of
the corporate and public organisations which have decided on a
non-Microsoft environment.)

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world

In article <00A96FEA.C91F961F@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <obydncht8rSnK93WnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>>>> looking at it??
>>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>>>
>>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>  is one
>>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>>>
>>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>>>
>>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>>> one you will want.
>>>>
>>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>>> Word.
>>>>
>>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>>>
>>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>>> to read it as well.
>>> 
>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>>> 
>>
>>You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to 
>>with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and 
>>content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!
> 
> Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.

Of course it does.  If I want to run an executable file under VMS
using RUN if the file ends in .EXE I don't have to include the
extension but if it is anything else, I do.  VMS uses extensions
just like other OSes.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <4b40c08e$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
	Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> On 03-01-2010 10:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<obydncht8rSnK93WnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article<4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>>>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>>>>> looking at it??
>>>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>   is one
>>>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>>>> one you will want.
>>>>>
>>>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>>>> Word.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>>>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>>>> to read it as well.
>>>>
>>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>>>
>>> You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to
>>> with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and
>>> content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!
>>
>> Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.
> 
> The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content

Hate to ruin your day, but *nix doesn't care what you use for an
extension on anything.  There is absolutely no significance of any
extension at the OS level.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <4b40db44$0$278$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
	Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>
>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>> other can implement them.
>>>
>>> So the difference is ??
>>
>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
> 
> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
> etc. products.
> 

And all of them, including MS, provided the ability to save to
other formats that were compatable with other companies products
(or does noone remember things like SYLK for spreadsheets?)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <7qe7k1F3ukpruU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <00A96FDF.8A41CBA5@sendspamhere.org>,
>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> In article <4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>>> looking at it??
>>>>
>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>>
>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>  is one
>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>>
>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>>
>>>A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>>
>>>If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>>see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>>one you will want.
>>>
>>>The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>>would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>>Word.
>>>
>>>It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>>around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>>
>>>To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>>application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>>is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>>to read it as well.
>> 
>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>> 
>
>The new format is .docx, which is xml.  I am always amazed at how
>many people who always bitched about MS proprietary formats bitch
>just as lound about their use of XML.

Who's bitching?  JF remarked about .DOCX.  Arne said it was ZIPped XML.
That presented bit of confusion.  Is this .DOCX a ZIPped .DOC with XML
or a complete new format wherein .DOCX is ZIPped XML.  Regardless, it's
M$ and I avoid it.


>And, if you hate the idea of someone taking a standard format and
>adding proprietary junk to it, take a look at XFDL.  And you can't
>blame Gatwes for that one.

Who is?  Uncle Sam?  He seems to be a big employer of it.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <hhn786$lgn$02$4@news.t-online.com>,
	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
> 
>> 
>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a 
>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and 
>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might* 
>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
> 
> And what about the open source browsers and email clients which made
> it to VMS?

They don't work at all on my VT320.  :-)

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <4b3fc069$0$274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
	Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> On 02-01-2010 15:06, Bob Koehler wrote:
>> In article<nMudnTlGNcckNaPWnZ2dnUVZ_jRi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
>>> Better the devil I know than the devil I don't!  Besides, everything
>>> I've heard about Windows Vista has been negative.  I'm sure Microsoft
>>> loves it but does anyone else?
>>
>>      Microsoft loves it?  They've already dumped it for 7.
> 
> I assume that HP loves VMS 8.2 even though they did release 8.3 ...

Actually, it appears that HP couldn't care less about VMS.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <keqdnQhK2NVppNzWnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> John Wallace wrote:
>>> On Jan 2, 1:16 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jedn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3...@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>>>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5...@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>>>>>>> <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Krae...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>>>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>>>>>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>>>>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>>>>>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>>>>>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>>>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been
>>>>>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran
>>>>>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>>>>> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
>>>>> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
>>>>> company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
>>>>> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>>>> Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to
>>>> read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a month
>>>> I print checks to pay my bills.
>>>>
>>>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
>>>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and
>>>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might*
>>>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
>>>>
>>>> If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
>>>> (VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
>>>> systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
>>>> anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
>>> "What is VMS going to do with email that has a picture in it?"
>>>
>>> How soon we forget.
>>>
>>> My recollection is that DEC invented Compound Document Architecture in
>>> the mid 1990s. CDA applications supported embedded pictures (and other
>>> embedded documents, even including multimedia). When properly
>>> implemented, the documents could be displayed (and edited) as
>>> graphical documents on a workstation (VMS or DEC UNIX), or in the
>>> absence of a workstation there would be some fall-back format suitable
>>> for display (or processing) as simple character-oriented stuff.
>>>
>> But it didn't ship with the O/S.  It was an add on at substantial extra 
>> cost.  Windows has the capability natively!
> 
> WEENDOZE didn't have native email capability -- at least, nothing I ever
> found.  
> 

Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
with Windows.  I've seldom used it for anything.  For years I used 
Netscape mail and Thunderbird for the last few years.

In article <0MadncSb-oMSld_WnZ2dnUVZ_jhi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <keqdnQhK2NVppNzWnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>> John Wallace wrote:
>>>> On Jan 2, 1:16 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>> In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jedn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3...@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>>>>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5...@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>>>>>>>> <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Krae...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>>>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>>>>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>>>>>>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>>>>>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>>>>>>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>>>>>>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>>>>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been
>>>>>>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran
>>>>>>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>>>>>> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
>>>>>> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
>>>>>> company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
>>>>>> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>>>>> Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to
>>>>> read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a month
>>>>> I print checks to pay my bills.
>>>>>
>>>>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
>>>>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and
>>>>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might*
>>>>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
>>>>>
>>>>> If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
>>>>> (VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
>>>>> systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
>>>>> anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
>>>> "What is VMS going to do with email that has a picture in it?"
>>>>
>>>> How soon we forget.
>>>>
>>>> My recollection is that DEC invented Compound Document Architecture in
>>>> the mid 1990s. CDA applications supported embedded pictures (and other
>>>> embedded documents, even including multimedia). When properly
>>>> implemented, the documents could be displayed (and edited) as
>>>> graphical documents on a workstation (VMS or DEC UNIX), or in the
>>>> absence of a workstation there would be some fall-back format suitable
>>>> for display (or processing) as simple character-oriented stuff.
>>>>
>>> But it didn't ship with the O/S.  It was an add on at substantial extra 
>>> cost.  Windows has the capability natively!
>> 
>> WEENDOZE didn't have native email capability -- at least, nothing I ever
>> found.  
>> 
>
>Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
>with Windows.  I've seldom used it for anything.  For years I used 
>Netscape mail and Thunderbird for the last few years.

It doesn't install with WEENDOZE.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <0MadncSb-oMSld_WnZ2dnUVZ_jhi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <keqdnQhK2NVppNzWnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>>> John Wallace wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 2, 1:16 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jedn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <THs%m.3839$Gf3.3...@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero" <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <CR6%m.10040$0U1.5...@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>>>>>>>>> <JVott...@mvpsi.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Krae...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>>>>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>>>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>>>>>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>>>>>>>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>>>>>>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>>>>>>>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>>>>>>>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>>>>>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been
>>>>>>>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran
>>>>>>>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>>>>>>> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
>>>>>>> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
>>>>>>> company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
>>>>>>> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>>>>>> Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to
>>>>>> read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a month
>>>>>> I print checks to pay my bills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
>>>>>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and
>>>>>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might*
>>>>>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
>>>>>> (VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
>>>>>> systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
>>>>>> anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
>>>>> "What is VMS going to do with email that has a picture in it?"
>>>>>
>>>>> How soon we forget.
>>>>>
>>>>> My recollection is that DEC invented Compound Document Architecture in
>>>>> the mid 1990s. CDA applications supported embedded pictures (and other
>>>>> embedded documents, even including multimedia). When properly
>>>>> implemented, the documents could be displayed (and edited) as
>>>>> graphical documents on a workstation (VMS or DEC UNIX), or in the
>>>>> absence of a workstation there would be some fall-back format suitable
>>>>> for display (or processing) as simple character-oriented stuff.
>>>>>
>>>> But it didn't ship with the O/S.  It was an add on at substantial extra 
>>>> cost.  Windows has the capability natively!
>>> WEENDOZE didn't have native email capability -- at least, nothing I ever
>>> found.  
>>>
>> Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
>> with Windows.  I've seldom used it for anything.  For years I used 
>> Netscape mail and Thunderbird for the last few years.
> 
> It doesn't install with WEENDOZE.
> 

Outlook does not install with Windows.  It's a separate product. 
Outlook *Express* does install with Windows.  There's a mail client in 
there!

In article <00A970AB.204B392A@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
 VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Who's bitching?  JF remarked about .DOCX.  Arne said it was ZIPped XML.
> That presented bit of confusion.  Is this .DOCX a ZIPped .DOC with XML
> or a complete new format wherein .DOCX is ZIPped XML.  Regardless, it's
> M$ and I avoid it.

FWIW OpenOffice and Apple's iWork both store files in gzip formmat.

I don't know where it's documented for OpenOffice, but the iWork stuff 
is documented in the Xcode help files.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <4B40C18A.2050202@planet.nl>,
 Wilm Boerhout <w6.boerhout@planet.nl> wrote:

> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG mentioned  on 3-1-2010 16:48:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ 
> >>> W(ei)RD.
> >>>
> >> You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to 
> >> with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and 
> >> content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!
> > 
> > Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.
> 
> 
> With VMS, you can indeed $RUN any file, but the OS sort of assumes, no 
> strike this anthropomorphic description, and instead use: ... but you 
> get the most benefit out of a $RUN command if the file you $RUN is 
> indeed an executable.
> 
> Anyway, you get the idea, it's the humans operating the computer that 
> determine what actions are best used on what files. This goes for VMS 
> and Windows and Linux alike. And both have sort of implied defaults for 
> certains actions and/or file types. Difference is, "activating" a file 
> object on Windows can trigger actions based on file type ("extension"), 
> but that is by convention only, and is easily overruled by the user. And 
> on Windows, you can re-associate the .docx extension with running the 
> Unzip program on the file, if you think it is more useful. Likewise, on 
> VMS, you can rename all your .EXE files to .TXT and then get stuck with 
> $RUN foobar.TXT. Useful? Not around here.
> 
> /Wilm
> 
> O and BTW, .doc is not zipped XML, but .docx is.
> 

This is one area where I have a real grouse about OpenOffice. It insists 
that CSV files must be named .csv, even if you are using tab delimited 
files.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <4b40c08e$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
 Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

> The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content while VMS and
> to some extent DOS is that application implies content and extension
> usually can be omitted because the application will apply the default.
> 
> I very much prefer the VMS way for command line, but it is
> not easily applied to GUI.

One problem I find with OS X (and I assume other *nix variants) is 
determining which files are executables or scripts. The .EXE and .COM 
convention used by VMS does makes that easy to see at a glance.

OTOH, the GUI for OS X does look inside the file to see what it is, and 
Samba does too, which is what cripples Samba performance on VMS when 
browsing large directories.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <00A970B3.D1879832@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
 VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <0MadncSb-oMSld_WnZ2dnUVZ_jhi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. 
> Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:

> >
> >Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
> >with Windows.  I've seldom used it for anything.  For years I used 
> >Netscape mail and Thunderbird for the last few years.
> 
> It doesn't install with WEENDOZE.

Windows 7 doesn't ship with an email client.

Instead MS are promoting "Windows Live", which appears to be a cloud 
based thing.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <00bb7cdf$0$26803$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> In terms of VMS Mail, it just isn't worth the trouble. However, using a
> GUI mail reader does require you go through the trouble of finding the
> config parameters to disable displaying of any HTML or other evil
> formats (including javascript).
> 
> What I would like to see in GUI email clients is text-only by default,
> and you have a button to render the message in its full format when
> needed (for instancem, when you get an email from someone you know).

I had an interesting one the other day on my Mac.

I have signed up for several newsletters which send me the week's 
special in my local supermarkets (believe me, with the price of meat 
here...).

Although I have remote images disabled in Apple Mail, one of those 
supermarkets does manage to send me a graphical display by means of 
multiple attachments.

I haven't yet worked out what happened, but shortly after viewing one of 
those emails, my firewall chalked up a load of attempts by that very 
same supermarket to access port 80 on my laptop. Coincidence, I think 
not.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <paul.nospam-19AC0C.21055604012010@pbook.sture.ch>, Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes:
>In article <00A970AB.204B392A@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Who's bitching?  JF remarked about .DOCX.  Arne said it was ZIPped XML.
>> That presented bit of confusion.  Is this .DOCX a ZIPped .DOC with XML
>> or a complete new format wherein .DOCX is ZIPped XML.  Regardless, it's
>> M$ and I avoid it.
>
>FWIW OpenOffice and Apple's iWork both store files in gzip formmat.
>
>I don't know where it's documented for OpenOffice, but the iWork stuff 
>is documented in the Xcode help files.

iWork->Pages (I've not looked at other iWork components but I'd expect that
they are similar) save projects as a package which contains some folders as
well as the index.xml.gz file.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <paul.nospam-6386B0.21414804012010@pbook.sture.ch>, Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes:
>In article <00A970B3.D1879832@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> In article <0MadncSb-oMSld_WnZ2dnUVZ_jhi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. 
>> Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>
>> >
>> >Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
>> >with Windows.  I've seldom used it for anything.  For years I used 
>> >Netscape mail and Thunderbird for the last few years.
>> 
>> It doesn't install with WEENDOZE.
>
>Windows 7 doesn't ship with an email client.
>
>Instead MS are promoting "Windows Live", which appears to be a cloud 
>based thing.

M$ wants to read your email.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
(snip)
 
> One problem I find with OS X (and I assume other *nix variants) is 
> determining which files are executables or scripts. The .EXE and .COM 
> convention used by VMS does makes that easy to see at a glance.
 
> OTOH, the GUI for OS X does look inside the file to see what it is, and 
> Samba does too, which is what cripples Samba performance on VMS when 
> browsing large directories.

Unix, and I presume OS X, has the executable bit to tell programs
(such as the shell) which files to consider as executable.  There is
no need to look inside files with the bit not set.

C shell, at least, has a hash system to keep track of executable
files to speed up the search.

-- glen
 

Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Of course it does.  If I want to run an executable file under VMS
> using RUN if the file ends in .EXE I don't have to include the
> extension but if it is anything else, I do.  VMS uses extensions
> just like other OSes.

In particular, DECwindows, even the older one has a config file that
maps extensions to applications.

However, at the command line,while VMS *assumes* an extension in *some*
cases when none is specified (for instance "type chocolate" will assume
you meant "type chocolate.lis", or "cc chocolate" assumes you meant "cc
chocolate.c", the command line does not have any mapping of extension TO
application.  For instance, typing "chocolate.c" at the $ sign would not
invoke an editor or a compiler.

What is interesting is that the old MacOS had a file type and creator
fields in the file's meta data, and this was used to associate a file to
an application. (you could have a .jpg that would call up photoshop when
clicked, and another .jpg that would call up GraphicConverter when
clicked).  With OS-X, they downgraded to a file extension driven
application selection.

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
> with Windows. 

Not anymore. Neither Vista nor that Windows 7 contraption have Outlook
Express. They have something called "Windows Mail". Windows Mail is
*supposed* to be able to access outlook mail stores (.PST files), but
lacks 2 DLLs to do so, so you need to install the full Outlook to get
thsoe 2 DLLs so that Windows Mail can open the .PST files.

Paul Sture wrote:

> Although I have remote images disabled in Apple Mail, one of those 
> supermarkets does manage to send me a graphical display by means of 
> multiple attachments.
> 
> I haven't yet worked out what happened, but shortly after viewing one of 
> those emails, my firewall chalked up a load of attempts by that very 
> same supermarket to access port 80 on my laptop. Coincidence, I think 
> not.


That is why I want an email client that has a "view source" function.
Not sure if the Mail.App has it. That is why I use Thunderbird.
Thunkderbird is easrier to configure to disable all the crap, whereas
Mail.App seems to be "glitz must be ON" type of application which I
don't trust.

In article <paul.nospam-91F9B0.21284204012010@pbook.sture.ch>,
	Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes:
> In article <4b40c08e$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>  Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> 
>> The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content while VMS and
>> to some extent DOS is that application implies content and extension
>> usually can be omitted because the application will apply the default.
>> 
>> I very much prefer the VMS way for command line, but it is
>> not easily applied to GUI.
> 
> One problem I find with OS X (and I assume other *nix variants) is 
> determining which files are executables or scripts. 

Try the "file" command.

>                                                     The .EXE and .COM 
> convention used by VMS does makes that easy to see at a glance.

I thought we were just told that under VMS there is no significance to
file name extensions?  I know I had no problem running a file with the
extension .ZIP this morning.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

JF Mezei wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>> Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
>> with Windows. 
> 
> Not anymore. Neither Vista nor that Windows 7 contraption have Outlook
> Express. They have something called "Windows Mail". Windows Mail is
> *supposed* to be able to access outlook mail stores (.PST files), but
> lacks 2 DLLs to do so, so you need to install the full Outlook to get
> thsoe 2 DLLs so that Windows Mail can open the .PST files.

Sorry, I'm still running W/XP.  It does what I need it to do so there's 
no point to upgrading.

Bill Gunshannon <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:
(snip, someone wrote)

>>                                                     The .EXE and .COM 
>> convention used by VMS does makes that easy to see at a glance.
 
> I thought we were just told that under VMS there is no significance to
> file name extensions?  I know I had no problem running a file with the
> extension .ZIP this morning.

I am now remembering renaming directories and then back again,
but I can't remember if it was VMS or TOPS-10.

The system would let you rename them, but would still remember
that they were directories (and not let you delete them).

For TOPS-10 there are SAV and EXE files, and I think the extension
is important, but maybe it can figure it out.

Windows accepts both CMD and BAT for command files.   I believe
it will run executables independent of the extension, though
I am not so sure about command files.

-- glen

Hi Bill,

"Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
news:7qech6F3tt7rbU2@mid.individual.net...
> In article <4b40c08e$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
> Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> > On 03-01-2010 10:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article<obydncht8rSnK93WnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B.
Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
> >>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>>> In article<4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
> >>>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
> >>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
> >>>>>>> looking at it??
> >>>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>   is
one
> >>>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip
archive ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
> >>>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a
..DOC or
> >>>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
> >>>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
> >>>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
> >>>>> one you will want.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
> >>>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
> >>>>> Word.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
> >>>>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
> >>>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
> >>>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
> >>>>> to read it as well.
> >>>>
> >>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$
W(ei)RD.
> >>>
> >>> You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to
> >>> with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format
and
> >>> content based on the extension but don't let that limit your
creativity!
> >>
> >> Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.
> >
> > The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content
>
> Hate to ruin your day, but *nix doesn't care what you use for an
> extension on anything.  There is absolutely no significance of any
> extension at the OS level.

Yeah you gotta love cut/pasting filenames with scripts containg
!#usr/bin/gocrazy

putty really comes to the party with it's default paste button and
window-focus behaviour as well :-(

>
> bill

Cheers Richard Maher

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <paul.nospam-91F9B0.21284204012010@pbook.sture.ch>,
> 	Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes:
>> In article <4b40c08e$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>>  Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content while VMS and
>>> to some extent DOS is that application implies content and extension
>>> usually can be omitted because the application will apply the default.
>>>
>>> I very much prefer the VMS way for command line, but it is
>>> not easily applied to GUI.
>> One problem I find with OS X (and I assume other *nix variants) is 
>> determining which files are executables or scripts. 
> 
> Try the "file" command.
> 
>>                                                     The .EXE and .COM 
>> convention used by VMS does makes that easy to see at a glance.
> 
> I thought we were just told that under VMS there is no significance to
> file name extensions?  I know I had no problem running a file with the
> extension .ZIP this morning.
> 

I'd question the "no significance".  PRINT and TYPE expect ".LIS" so you 
need not specify it.  OTOH if you insist you can try to print binary 
data and may actually get some output.  It's seldom or never of any use 
but you CAN get it.  RUN assumes .EXE. @ assumes .COM and so forth.

You CAN say RUN MUMBLE.O and if the file specified is actually an 
executable image, I would expect it to execute correctly.  In the normal 
course of events there is seldom or never any good reason to do such a 
thing but it's possible.

In article <00be4158$0$23471$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Paul Sture wrote:
> 
> > Although I have remote images disabled in Apple Mail, one of those 
> > supermarkets does manage to send me a graphical display by means of 
> > multiple attachments.
> > 
> > I haven't yet worked out what happened, but shortly after viewing one of 
> > those emails, my firewall chalked up a load of attempts by that very 
> > same supermarket to access port 80 on my laptop. Coincidence, I think 
> > not.
> 
> 
> That is why I want an email client that has a "view source" function.
> Not sure if the Mail.App has it. That is why I use Thunderbird.
> Thunkderbird is easrier to configure to disable all the crap, whereas
> Mail.App seems to be "glitz must be ON" type of application which I
> don't trust.

Mail.app can view source too (View - Message - Raw Source).

I just need to set time aside to analyse it...

I took a distinct disliking to Thunderbird some years ago.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <00A970E9.439FD717@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
 VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <paul.nospam-19AC0C.21055604012010@pbook.sture.ch>, Paul Sture 
> <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes:
> >In article <00A970AB.204B392A@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> > VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >
> >> Who's bitching?  JF remarked about .DOCX.  Arne said it was ZIPped XML.
> >> That presented bit of confusion.  Is this .DOCX a ZIPped .DOC with XML
> >> or a complete new format wherein .DOCX is ZIPped XML.  Regardless, it's
> >> M$ and I avoid it.
> >
> >FWIW OpenOffice and Apple's iWork both store files in gzip formmat.
> >
> >I don't know where it's documented for OpenOffice, but the iWork stuff 
> >is documented in the Xcode help files.
> 
> iWork->Pages (I've not looked at other iWork components but I'd expect that
> they are similar) save projects as a package which contains some folders as
> well as the index.xml.gz file.

Yes, somewhere in there (though I seem to have lost my bookmark to it). 
There are flavours of "default write" commands which allow you to switch 
the compression off for development purposes.

The documentation is there for Pages and Keynote, but not Numbers.

-- 
Paul Sture

On 04-01-2010 09:59, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article<4b3fc069$0$274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
> 	Arne Vajh�j<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>> On 02-01-2010 15:06, Bob Koehler wrote:
>>> In article<nMudnTlGNcckNaPWnZ2dnUVZ_jRi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>   writes:
>>>> Better the devil I know than the devil I don't!  Besides, everything
>>>> I've heard about Windows Vista has been negative.  I'm sure Microsoft
>>>> loves it but does anyone else?
>>>
>>>       Microsoft loves it?  They've already dumped it for 7.
>>
>> I assume that HP loves VMS 8.2 even though they did release 8.3 ...
>
> Actually, it appears that HP couldn't care less about VMS.

Then make the analogy 4.2, 4.3 and DEC !

Arne

On 04-01-2010 09:33, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article<4b40c08e$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
> 	Arne Vajh�j<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>> On 03-01-2010 10:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article<obydncht8rSnK93WnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>   writes:
>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article<4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>   writes:
>>>>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>>>>>> looking at it??
>>>>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>    is one
>>>>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>>>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>>>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>>>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>>>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>>>>> one you will want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>>>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>>>>> Word.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>>>>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>>>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>>>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>>>>> to read it as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>>>>
>>>> You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to
>>>> with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format and
>>>> content based on the extension but don't let that limit your creativity!
>>>
>>> Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.
>>
>> The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content
>
> Hate to ruin your day, but *nix doesn't care what you use for an
> extension on anything.  There is absolutely no significance of any
> extension at the OS level.

No.

But the tools and utilities on top of the OS make those
assumptions.

Which is the same as on VMS.

Arne

On 04-01-2010 18:44, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article<paul.nospam-91F9B0.21284204012010@pbook.sture.ch>,
> 	Paul Sture<paul.nospam@sture.ch>  writes:
>> In article<4b40c08e$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>>   Arne Vajh�j<arne@vajhoej.dk>  wrote:
>>
>>> The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content while VMS and
>>> to some extent DOS is that application implies content and extension
>>> usually can be omitted because the application will apply the default.
>>>
>>> I very much prefer the VMS way for command line, but it is
>>> not easily applied to GUI.
>>
>> One problem I find with OS X (and I assume other *nix variants) is
>> determining which files are executables or scripts.
>
> Try the "file" command.
>
>>                                                      The .EXE and .COM
>> convention used by VMS does makes that easy to see at a glance.
>
> I thought we were just told that under VMS there is no significance to
> file name extensions?  I know I had no problem running a file with the
> extension .ZIP this morning.

It is very rare that the extension impacts functionality.

The difference is that on VMS various tools applies a default
extension while on *nix & win the tools use the extension to determine
what to do.

With VMS C $ CC FOOBAR means the same as $ CC FOOBAR.C, while with a
*nix gcc foobar.c the extension is used to determine what to do with
the file (gcc foobar.s or gcc foobar.o does something different).

Arne

On 04-01-2010 09:45, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<7qe7k1F3ukpruU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> In article<00A96FDF.8A41CBA5@sendspamhere.org>,
>> 	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> In article<4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
>>>>>> looking at it??
>>>>>
>>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
>>>>>
>>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>   is one
>>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip archive ?
>>>>>
>>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
>>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a .DOC or
>>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
>>>>
>>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
>>>>
>>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
>>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
>>>> one you will want.
>>>>
>>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
>>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
>>>> Word.
>>>>
>>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
>>>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
>>>>
>>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
>>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
>>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
>>>> to read it as well.
>>>
>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$ W(ei)RD.
>>
>> The new format is .docx, which is xml.  I am always amazed at how
>> many people who always bitched about MS proprietary formats bitch
>> just as lound about their use of XML.
>
> Who's bitching?  JF remarked about .DOCX.  Arne said it was ZIPped XML.
> That presented bit of confusion.  Is this .DOCX a ZIPped .DOC with XML
> or a complete new format wherein .DOCX is ZIPped XML.

A .DOCX is a zip file containing a bunch of .XML files - nothing in
the format is reusing .DOC format, but MS did carry all the
functionality over though.

Arne

On 04-01-2010 08:17, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2010-01-03, Arne Vajh�j<arne@vajhoej.dk>  wrote:
>> But X based word processors were never a big success and
>> definitely not on VMS.
>
> Hmm, what about OpenOffice on Linux ? :-)
>
> It's been successful enough to have Microsoft worried. (I'm thinking of
> the corporate and public organisations which have decided on a
> non-Microsoft environment.)

If Linux took off it could be a serious threat to Windows.

But we have been waiting 10 years for that to happen. And
it has not happen yet.

Linux is pretty stable <1% of desktop market share.

Arne

On 04-01-2010 08:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<keqdnQhK2NVppNzWnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
>> John Wallace wrote:
>>> On Jan 2, 1:16 am, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilber...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article<NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jedn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilber...@comcast.net>  writes:
>>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>> In article<THs%m.3839$Gf3.3...@newsfe22.iad>, "John Vottero"<JVott...@mvpsi.com>  writes:
>>>>>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG>  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>>>>>> In article<CR6%m.10040$0U1.5...@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>>>>>>> <JVott...@mvpsi.com>  writes:
>>>>>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer"<M.Krae...@gsi.de>  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary systems?
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with openness.
>>>>>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating systems which
>>>>>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>>>>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  WEENDOZE can
>>>>>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper adjective
>>>>>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>>>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I have been
>>>>>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad either.  I ran
>>>>>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>>>>> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese on the
>>>>> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think that a
>>>>> company with all that money could and would hire at least one decent art-
>>>>> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>>>> Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to
>>>> read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a month
>>>> I print checks to pay my bills.
>>>>
>>>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
>>>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the text and
>>>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might*
>>>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
>>>>
>>>> If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
>>>> (VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
>>>> systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
>>>> anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
>>>
>>> "What is VMS going to do with email that has a picture in it?"
>>>
>>> How soon we forget.
>>>
>>> My recollection is that DEC invented Compound Document Architecture in
>>> the mid 1990s. CDA applications supported embedded pictures (and other
>>> embedded documents, even including multimedia). When properly
>>> implemented, the documents could be displayed (and edited) as
>>> graphical documents on a workstation (VMS or DEC UNIX), or in the
>>> absence of a workstation there would be some fall-back format suitable
>>> for display (or processing) as simple character-oriented stuff.
>>>
>> But it didn't ship with the O/S.  It was an add on at substantial extra
>> cost.  Windows has the capability natively!
>
> WEENDOZE didn't have native email capability -- at least, nothing I ever
> found.

Can you get a Windows system without getting Outlook Express installed ?

Arne

On 04-01-2010 08:04, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>> On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>> other can implement them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the difference is ??
>>>>>
>>>>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>
>>>> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>> etc. products.
>>>
>>> ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>> was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>
>> More like 15-20 years ago.
>
> and still available.

But I would expect them to measure sales in new customers per decade.

Arne

Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> On 04-01-2010 08:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<keqdnQhK2NVppNzWnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. 
>> Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
>>> John Wallace wrote:
>>>> On Jan 2, 1:16 am, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilber...@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>> In article<NN2dnTzv5dZFCKPWnZ2dnUVZ_jedn...@giganews.com>, 
>>>>>> "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilber...@comcast.net>  writes:
>>>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article<THs%m.3839$Gf3.3...@newsfe22.iad>, "John 
>>>>>>>> Vottero"<JVott...@mvpsi.com>  writes:
>>>>>>>>> <VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG>  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:00A96DAF.7B635EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG...
>>>>>>>>>> In article<CR6%m.10040$0U1.5...@newsfe16.iad>, "John Vottero"
>>>>>>>>>> <JVott...@mvpsi.com>  writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Michael Kraemer"<M.Krae...@gsi.de>  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:hhcfhb$6hu$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS is just another company trying to make as much money as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are ethical and unethical ways to make money.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is (almost) always M$ that forces proprietary
>>>>>>>>>>>> formats.
>>>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that is is unethical to create proprietary 
>>>>>>>>>>> systems?
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't that make OpenVMS unethical?
>>>>>>>>>> If that's its definition, then WEENDOZE is very much unethical.
>>>>>>>>>> I still fail to understand how people mistake ubiquity with 
>>>>>>>>>> openness.
>>>>>>>>> I agree!  Windows and OpenVMS are both proprietary operating 
>>>>>>>>> systems which
>>>>>>>>> is one of the attributes that makes them GOOD!
>>>>>>>> You mean, it's the attribute that makes one of them good.  
>>>>>>>> WEENDOZE can
>>>>>>>> never be considered good; not even poor!  Crap is the proper 
>>>>>>>> adjective
>>>>>>>> to describe WEENDOZE.
>>>>>>> You are living in the past Brian!  W/XP is quite usable and I 
>>>>>>> have been
>>>>>>> using it for several years now.  W/2K wasn't all that bad 
>>>>>>> either.  I ran
>>>>>>> Windows 2.x so I know what "bad" *IS*!!
>>>>>> Even the newest version -- WEENDOZE 7 Deadly Sins -- looks cheese 
>>>>>> on the
>>>>>> few I've checked out at the Staples, Best Buys, etc.  You'd think 
>>>>>> that a
>>>>>> company with all that money could and would hire at least one 
>>>>>> decent art-
>>>>>> ist to make its product not look pale next to Super Mario Brothers.
>>>>> Picky, picky, picky!  I don't use Windows for it's looks.  I use it to
>>>>> read my mail and newsgroups.  Sometimes I even send mail.  Once a 
>>>>> month
>>>>> I print checks to pay my bills.
>>>>>
>>>>> What, for example, is Windows going to do with e-mail that has a
>>>>> photograph as an attachment?  That's right! It will display the 
>>>>> text and
>>>>> the photograph!  What will VMS do with the same message?  It *might*
>>>>> succeed in rendering the text.  The photograph?  Forget it!
>>>>>
>>>>> If I want to do some programming I crank up Reflection 4
>>>>> (VT-100/200/300/400/etc. emulation) and connect to my VAX or Alpha
>>>>> systems.  I have a real VT-510 terminal but I seldom use it for
>>>>> anything; the PC and Reflection is a lot more convenient.
>>>>
>>>> "What is VMS going to do with email that has a picture in it?"
>>>>
>>>> How soon we forget.
>>>>
>>>> My recollection is that DEC invented Compound Document Architecture in
>>>> the mid 1990s. CDA applications supported embedded pictures (and other
>>>> embedded documents, even including multimedia). When properly
>>>> implemented, the documents could be displayed (and edited) as
>>>> graphical documents on a workstation (VMS or DEC UNIX), or in the
>>>> absence of a workstation there would be some fall-back format suitable
>>>> for display (or processing) as simple character-oriented stuff.
>>>>
>>> But it didn't ship with the O/S.  It was an add on at substantial extra
>>> cost.  Windows has the capability natively!
>>
>> WEENDOZE didn't have native email capability -- at least, nothing I ever
>> found.
> 
> Can you get a Windows system without getting Outlook Express installed ?
> 
> Arne

Windows has some options when you install it.  I'm not sure if you can 
exclude mail from the installation; it's not something I ever 
needed/wanted to do.

In article <4b42917c$0$271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>On 04-01-2010 08:04, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>>> On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>>>>> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>>> Arne Vajh�j schrieb:
>>>>>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>>> other can implement them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the difference is ??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>>
>>>>> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>>> etc. products.
>>>>
>>>> ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>>> was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>>
>>> More like 15-20 years ago.
>>
>> and still available.
>
>But I would expect them to measure sales in new customers per decade.

I will not comment on current sales or current customer figures.  I'm only
the piano player.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

On 04-01-2010 17:49, JF Mezei wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships
>> with Windows.
>
> Not anymore. Neither Vista nor that Windows 7 contraption have Outlook
> Express. They have something called "Windows Mail".

Windows Mail is just a new name for Outlook Express.

Ditto with Windows Live Mail.

 >                                                    Windows Mail is
 > *supposed* to be able to access outlook mail stores (.PST files), but
 > lacks 2 DLLs to do so, so you need to install the full Outlook to get
 > thsoe 2 DLLs so that Windows Mail can open the .PST files.

To read files from Outlook you will probably need Outlook
installed. Not so surprisingly.

Arne

VAXman- schrieb:
> In article <4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
>>On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>>Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>>And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>>other can implement them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So the difference is ??
>>>>>
>>>>>that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>>was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>>you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>>formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>
>>>>True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>>etc. products.
>>>
>>>ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>>was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>
>>More like 15-20 years ago.
> 
> 
> and still available.
> 

for VMS (and UNIX) or just for M$ OS?

In article <hhv1b3$2sn$02$2@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>VAXman- schrieb:
>> In article <4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> 
>>>On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>>>Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>>>other can implement them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So the difference is ??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>>>was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>>>you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>>>formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>>
>>>>>True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>>>etc. products.
>>>>
>>>>ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>>>was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>>
>>>More like 15-20 years ago.
>> 
>> 
>> and still available.
>> 
>
>for VMS (and UNIX) or just for M$ OS?

Visit: http://www.ProvN.com/

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <00A97168.66C892A0@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <hhv1b3$2sn$02$2@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>>VAXman- schrieb:
>>> In article <4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> 
>>>>On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>>>>other can implement them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>So the difference is ??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>>>>was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>>>>you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>>>>formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>>>>etc. products.
>>>>>
>>>>>ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>>>>was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>>>
>>>>More like 15-20 years ago.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> and still available.
>>> 
>>
>>for VMS (and UNIX) or just for M$ OS?
> 
> Visit: http://www.ProvN.com/
 
Did you?

The first two are not links and the second two are dead links.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <hhtvkt$nqq$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>,
 "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Bill,
> 
> "Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
> news:7qech6F3tt7rbU2@mid.individual.net...
> > In article <4b40c08e$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
> > Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> > > On 03-01-2010 10:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > >> In article<obydncht8rSnK93WnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B.
> Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
> > >>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > >>>> In article<4b40a5e2$0$280$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=<arne@vajhoej.dk>  writes:
> > >>>>> On 02-01-2010 23:22, JF Mezei wrote:
> > >>>>>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> But but but - did you unzip the container before
> > >>>>>>> looking at it??
> > >>>>>> If it was a zipped XML file, why was its extention not ".ZIP" ????
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> How the<4 letter word that begins with H and ends with ELL>   is
> one
> > >>>>>> supposed to know that some proprietary Microsoft format is a zip
> archive ?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> And if it was so easy to just unzip it, why was I told I needed a
> > >>>>>> proprioetary micsrosoft application to convert that format to a
> .DOC or
> > >>>>>> XML format readable by some other application ?
> > >>>>> A .docx file is a zip file containing XML files.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If you rename it to .zip and look into it then you will
> > >>>>> see a bunch of xml files. I believe document.xml is the
> > >>>>> one you will want.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The extension is not .zip because then double clicking on it
> > >>>>> would open a zip utility/filebrowser instead of the intended
> > >>>>> Word.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It is not a proprietary format but standardized format. Only
> > >>>>> around 10000 pages of specification.  :-)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> To read it then I would also have suggested an office
> > >>>>> application. It is not that easy to read that XML. MS Office
> > >>>>> is obvious, but I believe that OpenOffice should be able
> > >>>>> to read it as well.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> You're saying that a .DOC is XML?  I thought it was proprietary M$
> W(ei)RD.
> > >>>
> > >>> You can use any extension you like and it has little or nothing to to
> > >>> with the file contents.  Programs will make assumptions about format
> and
> > >>> content based on the extension but don't let that limit your
> creativity!
> > >>
> > >> Well, VMS doesn't and that brings this back to being a VMS thread.
> > >
> > > The *nix and Win way is that extension implies content
> >
> > Hate to ruin your day, but *nix doesn't care what you use for an
> > extension on anything.  There is absolutely no significance of any
> > extension at the OS level.
> 
> Yeah you gotta love cut/pasting filenames with scripts containg
> !#usr/bin/gocrazy
> 

I had something weird recently with that on OS X. I couldn't print a 
file (was it a CSS file?) from the command line until I edited out the 
!*xxxx line.

-- 
Paul Sture

Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> In article <00A97168.66C892A0@sendspamhere.org>,
> 	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> for VMS (and UNIX) or just for M$ OS?
>> Visit: http://www.ProvN.com/
>  
> Did you?
> 
> The first two are not links and the second two are dead links.
> 
> bill
> 

Click on "Products" first, then the links works.

(That wasn't *that* hard to test, was it ?)

In article <7qgsuoFcd5U2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <00A97168.66C892A0@sendspamhere.org>,
>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> In article <hhv1b3$2sn$02$2@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>>>VAXman- schrieb:
>>>> In article <4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>>On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>>>>>other can implement them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>So the difference is ??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>>>>>was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>>>>>you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>>>>>formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>>>>>etc. products.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>>>>>was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>>>>
>>>>>More like 15-20 years ago.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> and still available.
>>>> 
>>>
>>>for VMS (and UNIX) or just for M$ OS?
>> 
>> Visit: http://www.ProvN.com/
> 
>Did you?
>
>The first two are not links and the second two are dead links.

???  

First two what? And second two what?  I posted one URL.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <7qgsuoFcd5U2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> In article <00A97168.66C892A0@sendspamhere.org>,
>> 	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> In article <hhv1b3$2sn$02$2@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>>>> VAXman- schrieb:
>>>>> In article <4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>>>>>> other can implement them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So the difference is ??
>>>>>>>>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>>>>>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>>>>>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>>>>>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>>>>> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>>>>>> etc. products.
>>>>>>> ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>>>>>> was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>>>>> More like 15-20 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> and still available.
>>>>>
>>>> for VMS (and UNIX) or just for M$ OS?
>>> Visit: http://www.ProvN.com/
>> Did you?
>>
>> The first two are not links and the second two are dead links.
> 
> ???  
> 
> First two what? And second two what?  I posted one URL.
> 

The WordPerfect links on "http://www.provn.com/main.html"
are not the same as on "http://www.provn.com/Products/products.htm".

The difference is minor but enough to make the links on the
"main" page to not function properly.

On "http://www.provn.com/main.html" :

http://www.provn.com/products/wp53.pdf
http://www.provn.com/products/wp71.pdf

On "http://www.provn.com/Products/products.htm" :

http://www.provn.com/Products/wp53.pdf
http://www.provn.com/Products/wp71.pdf

Note the uppercase "P" in the latter case...

Now, it wasn't *THAT* hard for either you or Bill to
see that, so this thread is a joke...

Finaly, the fact that noone has fixed the links on the "main" page
probably tells everything about the interest in the product...

In article <iEJ0n.14294$U5.217867@newsb.telia.net>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <7qgsuoFcd5U2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>> In article <00A97168.66C892A0@sendspamhere.org>,
>>> 	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>> In article <hhv1b3$2sn$02$2@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>>>>> VAXman- schrieb:
>>>>>> In article <4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>>>>>>> other can implement them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So the difference is ??
>>>>>>>>>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>>>>>>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>>>>>>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>>>>>>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>>>>>> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>>>>>>> etc. products.
>>>>>>>> ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>>>>>>> was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>>>>>> More like 15-20 years ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and still available.
>>>>>>
>>>>> for VMS (and UNIX) or just for M$ OS?
>>>> Visit: http://www.ProvN.com/
>>> Did you?
>>>
>>> The first two are not links and the second two are dead links.
>> 
>> ???  
>> 
>> First two what? And second two what?  I posted one URL.
>> 
>
>The WordPerfect links on "http://www.provn.com/main.html"
>are not the same as on "http://www.provn.com/Products/products.htm".
>
>The difference is minor but enough to make the links on the
>"main" page to not function properly.

OK.  Bill's post wasn't clear.  All I posted was a URL.


>On "http://www.provn.com/main.html" :
>
>http://www.provn.com/products/wp53.pdf
>http://www.provn.com/products/wp71.pdf
>
>On "http://www.provn.com/Products/products.htm" :
>
>http://www.provn.com/Products/wp53.pdf
>http://www.provn.com/Products/wp71.pdf
>
>Note the uppercase "P" in the latter case...
>
>Now, it wasn't *THAT* hard for either you or Bill to
>see that, so this thread is a joke...
>
>Finaly, the fact that noone has fixed the links on the "main" page
>probably tells everything about the interest in the product...

OK.  The links are working.  

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <00A97187.B3E365AE@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <iEJ0n.14294$U5.217867@newsb.telia.net>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <7qgsuoFcd5U2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>> In article <00A97168.66C892A0@sendspamhere.org>,
>>>> 	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>>> In article <hhv1b3$2sn$02$2@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>>>>>> VAXman- schrieb:
>>>>>>> In article <4b4138f2$0$269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 03-01-2010 19:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 03-01-2010 05:13, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Arne Vajh?j schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
>>>>>>>>>>>> other can implement them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So the difference is ??
>>>>>>>>>>> that M$ didn't do this until their monopoly
>>>>>>>>>>> was completed. About fifteen years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> you'd had a hard time to view those proprietary
>>>>>>>>>>> formats properly on anything different than M$ Windoze+office.
>>>>>>>>>> True. But you would have the same problems with Lotus, WordPerfect
>>>>>>>>>> etc. products.
>>>>>>>>> ISTR that there was/is WordPerfect for VMS. I'm quite certain that it
>>>>>>>>> was available about ten years ago. I'm not sure about now.
>>>>>>>> More like 15-20 years ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and still available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> for VMS (and UNIX) or just for M$ OS?
>>>>> Visit: http://www.ProvN.com/
>>>> Did you?
>>>>
>>>> The first two are not links and the second two are dead links.
>>> 
>>> ???  
>>> 
>>> First two what? And second two what?  I posted one URL.
>>> 
>>
>>The WordPerfect links on "http://www.provn.com/main.html"
>>are not the same as on "http://www.provn.com/Products/products.htm".
>>
>>The difference is minor but enough to make the links on the
>>"main" page to not function properly.
> 
> OK.  Bill's post wasn't clear.  All I posted was a URL.
> 
> 
>>On "http://www.provn.com/main.html" :
>>
>>http://www.provn.com/products/wp53.pdf
>>http://www.provn.com/products/wp71.pdf
>>
>>On "http://www.provn.com/Products/products.htm" :
>>
>>http://www.provn.com/Products/wp53.pdf
>>http://www.provn.com/Products/wp71.pdf
>>
>>Note the uppercase "P" in the latter case...
>>
>>Now, it wasn't *THAT* hard for either you or Bill to
>>see that, so this thread is a joke...
>>
>>Finaly, the fact that noone has fixed the links on the "main" page
>>probably tells everything about the interest in the product...
> 
> OK.  The links are working.  
 
This just gets funnier all the time.  You do realize that link just
delivers a 10 year old PDF file.  I have no doubt that WP7.1 was
available for OpenVMS in 1999 but I seriously doubt it is still
considered a product by its owners.  I actually went to WordPerfects
webpage and I am afraid I found no mention of VMS there.  I hardly
think some guy selling old copies of software out of his garage
counts as a "product being available".


bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <4b3fc001$0$274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
> You have never seen a Windows system and a non-Windows communicate ??

   I have seen Windows accept data that was gennerated on other
   platforms, where standards were followed.  And I have seen MS
   products generate HTML that insisted only Explorer can display
   JPEG files.  In fact, I've seen lots of MS products that generated
   data that violated standards in ways that only MS products would
   accept.

In article <4b3fee79$0$275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
> And they have publicized their formats as well, so
> other can implement them.

   They have publicised formats for out of date versions.  They have
   published format descriptions that don't match the contents of
   the files.

   That's been my experience, so what good are either of the above?

In article <00bbcdf4$0$23699$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
> 
>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
> 
> Do they still do that ?
> 
> They came out with some funky new word format (pretends to be XML, but
> it is unreadable binary junk). To read one such document, I had to
> download some converter from Microsoft which would then create a new
> file which could be read.

   They only provided a converter to use their own products to read
   those formats.

   OBTW, a .docx file is actually a zip with a .doc file and some other
   junk inside.  So you don't really need a converter if you can read
   a .doc file.

In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS.  It's 
> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively 
> can output only ASCII text.  You can run it on a workstation but I think 
> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.

   Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"?  I've
   been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.

In article <7qe7k1F3ukpruU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> The new format is .docx, which is xml.  I am always amazed at how
> many people who always bitched about MS proprietary formats bitch
> just as lound about their use of XML.

   No.  .docx is zip.  It contains some XML files and a .doc file, which
   is also not XML.

In article <7qecbeF3tt7rbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> Of course it does.  If I want to run an executable file under VMS
> using RUN if the file ends in .EXE I don't have to include the
> extension but if it is anything else, I do.  VMS uses extensions
> just like other OSes.

   You ever try to convince a UNIX cc command that you have C source
   in a .a file?  You can do that on VMS.  I don't but not because the
   OS or its layered products force me.

In article <7qedj2F3tt7rbU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> They don't work at all on my VT320.  :-)

   You never used lynx?

In article <0MadncSb-oMSld_WnZ2dnUVZ_jhi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
> Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
> with Windows.  I've seldom used it for anything.  For years I used 
> Netscape mail and Thunderbird for the last few years.

   Only the client ships with Windows.  It's unuseable without someone 
   buying and setting up the server.

In article <paul.nospam-9AB957.21090904012010@pbook.sture.ch>, Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes:
> 
> This is one area where I have a real grouse about OpenOffice. It insists 
> that CSV files must be named .csv, even if you are using tab delimited 
> files.

   Emulating Excell a little too much.

In article <hhtv51$bql$3@naig.caltech.edu>, glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
> 
> I am now remembering renaming directories and then back again,
> but I can't remember if it was VMS or TOPS-10.
> 
> The system would let you rename them, but would still remember
> that they were directories (and not let you delete them).

   VMS will still do that.  I'm not sure about TOPS-10, but I know
   on TOPS-20 all directory manipulation had to be donw my different
   JSYS than other files.
 
> 
> Windows accepts both CMD and BAT for command files.   I believe
> it will run executables independent of the extension, though
> I am not so sure about command files.

   I've never seen Windows execute anything other than .COM and
   .EXE files.  Care to share an example?

In article <4b42901b$0$271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
> A .DOCX is a zip file containing a bunch of .XML files - nothing in
> the format is reusing .DOC format, but MS did carry all the
> functionality over though.

   There is a .doc file inside that zip file, and it IS using the .doc
   format.

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS.  It's 
>> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively 
>> can output only ASCII text.  You can run it on a workstation but I think 
>> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
> 
>    Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"?  I've
>    been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
> 

Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
native VMS.

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
> native VMS.


DECwrite did it. So did DECdocument.  WPSplus had some font support as
well (but rendered on printers, not on VT220, except for the technical
character set).

Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:
(snip, I wrote)
 
>> Windows accepts both CMD and BAT for command files.   I believe
>> it will run executables independent of the extension, though
>> I am not so sure about command files.
 
>   I've never seen Windows execute anything other than .COM and
>   .EXE files.  Care to share an example?

I believe that there are more extensions in current versions.

I just tested renaming a .exe file to .xxx on W2K.  
Typing the whole name will execute the file correctly.  

Also, for many years now the .COM extension on an EXE format 
file will work.   For .CMD and .BAT it will attempt to execute
the binary data as CMD.EXE commands.

All extensions specified in the PATHEXT environment variable will
be tried and executed if no extension is specified on the command.

On my system as installed it is:

PATHEXT=.COM;.EXE;.BAT;.CMD;.VBS;.VBE;.JS;.JSE;.WSF;.WSH

I am not so sure how it separates .BAT and .CMD from executable
code, though.

-- glen

JF Mezei wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
>> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
>> native VMS.
> 
> 
> DECwrite did it. So did DECdocument.  WPSplus had some font support as
> well (but rendered on printers, not on VT220, except for the technical
> character set).

All are layered products!  None ship with the O/S!!

In article <DdWdnboFgKI-i9nWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>Bob Koehler wrote:
>> In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS.  It's 
>>> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively 
>>> can output only ASCII text.  You can run it on a workstation but I think 
>>> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
>> 
>>    Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"?  I've
>>    been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
>> 
>
>Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
>selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
>native VMS.

$ CONVERT/DOCUMENT ASCII.TXT/FORMAT=TEXT POSTSCRIPT.PS/FORMAT=PS

This argument has nothing to do with the OS; it has all to do with the
text processing apps.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <1vnTAOhPy0M$@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <hhtv51$bql$3@naig.caltech.edu>, glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>> 
>> I am now remembering renaming directories and then back again,
>> but I can't remember if it was VMS or TOPS-10.
>> 
>> The system would let you rename them, but would still remember
>> that they were directories (and not let you delete them).
> 
>    VMS will still do that.  I'm not sure about TOPS-10, but I know
>    on TOPS-20 all directory manipulation had to be donw my different
>    JSYS than other files.
>  
>> 
>> Windows accepts both CMD and BAT for command files.   I believe
>> it will run executables independent of the extension, though
>> I am not so sure about command files.
> 
>    I've never seen Windows execute anything other than .COM and
>    .EXE files.  Care to share an example?

I just took an .EXE and copied it to "testfile.wak" and while I
could not execute it from the GUI it ran fine in a COMMAND Window.
I would guess if I took the time to find out how to associate a
".WAK" file with Windows as an executable it would work fine.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <AyzF6Rqgzkoc@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <7qecbeF3tt7rbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>> Of course it does.  If I want to run an executable file under VMS
>> using RUN if the file ends in .EXE I don't have to include the
>> extension but if it is anything else, I do.  VMS uses extensions
>> just like other OSes.
> 
>    You ever try to convince a UNIX cc command that you have C source
>    in a .a file?  You can do that on VMS.  I don't but not because the
>    OS or its layered products force me.
 
cc -x c xxx.a

Worked just fine for me on FreeBSD 6.1 with GCC 3.4.4. Pprobably
wouldn't work on the old Ultrix cc but I don't have a system handy
to find out.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <6nZhECo$i+zJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <7qe7k1F3ukpruU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>> The new format is .docx, which is xml.  I am always amazed at how
>> many people who always bitched about MS proprietary formats bitch
>> just as lound about their use of XML.
> 
>    No.  .docx is zip.  It contains some XML files and a .doc file, which
>    is also not XML.
 
Try again.  I just created a .docx file from Word, moved it to Unix
and unzipped it.

server2# ls -lR
total 22
-rwxr--r--  1 bill  staff  12303 Jan  6 08:03 IG1test.docx
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff   1312 Jan  1  1980 [Content_Types].xml
drwxr-xr-x  2 bill  staff    512 Jan  6 08:05 _rels
drwxr-xr-x  2 bill  staff    512 Jan  6 08:05 docProps
drwxr-xr-x  4 bill  staff    512 Jan  6 08:05 word

../_rels:
total 0

../docProps:
total 4
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff  735 Jan  1  1980 app.xml
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff  785 Jan  1  1980 core.xml

../word:
total 48
drwxr-xr-x  2 bill  staff    512 Jan  6 08:05 _rels
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff  21200 Jan  1  1980 document.xml
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff   1564 Jan  1  1980 fontTable.xml
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff   1610 Jan  1  1980 settings.xml
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff  15566 Jan  1  1980 styles.xml
drwxr-xr-x  2 bill  staff    512 Jan  6 08:05 theme
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff    260 Jan  1  1980 webSettings.xml

../word/_rels:
total 2
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff  817 Jan  1  1980 document.xml.rels

../word/theme:
total 8
-rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff  6992 Jan  1  1980 theme1.xml

Nothing in there with a ".doc" extension. And the only files without
".xml" for an extension are ".rels" and if you actually look at them,
they are also XML files.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <VgEAlYeWtfTz@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <7qedj2F3tt7rbU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>> They don't work at all on my VT320.  :-)
> 
>    You never used lynx?

Yes, but I can't think of many websites that would be usable today
with it.  When did VMS start shipping with Lynx included?

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <iYUD8CIfRYnX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <00bbcdf4$0$23699$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> 
>>> And MS supply free readers for doc/xls/ppt as well.
>> 
>> Do they still do that ?
>> 
>> They came out with some funky new word format (pretends to be XML, but
>> it is unreadable binary junk). To read one such document, I had to
>> download some converter from Microsoft which would then create a new
>> file which could be read.
> 
>    They only provided a converter to use their own products to read
>    those formats.
> 
>    OBTW, a .docx file is actually a zip with a .doc file and some other
>    junk inside.  So you don't really need a converter if you can read
>    a .doc file.

I don't know what you are looking at, but there is no .doc file.
Current Office products are all XML.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <cRo6i+u8Vs4y@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <0MadncSb-oMSld_WnZ2dnUVZ_jhi4p2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> 
>> Outlook Express?  Maybe it's not properly called "native" but it ships 
>> with Windows.  I've seldom used it for anything.  For years I used 
>> Netscape mail and Thunderbird for the last few years.
> 
>    Only the client ships with Windows.  It's unuseable without someone 
>    buying and setting up the server.

What's your point?  Were you expecting a server on the desktop?
Of course, the same is true of any of the other email systems.
There are MTA's and User Programs.  One expects to find the User
Program on the desktop but without someone providing the Server
end it is really pretty useless.  Outlook is no different in this
respect.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <3dG3y6SMG7X8@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <4b42901b$0$271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> 
>> A .DOCX is a zip file containing a bunch of .XML files - nothing in
>> the format is reusing .DOC format, but MS did carry all the
>> functionality over though.
> 
>    There is a .doc file inside that zip file, and it IS using the .doc
>    format.

I provided an example that disproves this.  Care to provide an example
to support your claim?

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

"Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 
news:7qjh5jFhiqU9@mid.individual.net...
> In article <3dG3y6SMG7X8@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> In article <4b42901b$0$271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, 
>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>
>>> A .DOCX is a zip file containing a bunch of .XML files - nothing in
>>> the format is reusing .DOC format, but MS did carry all the
>>> functionality over though.
>>
>>    There is a .doc file inside that zip file, and it IS using the .doc
>>    format.
>
> I provided an example that disproves this.  Care to provide an example
> to support your claim?
>
> bill
>

Check out http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338205.aspx

for a rather good description of the new XML based file formats.

John 

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <DdWdnboFgKI-i9nWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>> In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>>> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS.  It's 
>>>> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively 
>>>> can output only ASCII text.  You can run it on a workstation but I think 
>>>> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
>>>    Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"?  I've
>>>    been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
>>>
>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
>> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
>> native VMS.
> 
> $ CONVERT/DOCUMENT ASCII.TXT/FORMAT=TEXT POSTSCRIPT.PS/FORMAT=PS

Simply converting to PostScript is not terribly useful.  The output 
would still be in the original format.  It would have to be fixed up to 
change text sizes and fonts where applicable.  It would be easier to do 
that in LaTeX and let it generate the PostScript.

In article <A+MXzpeNciZO@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
 koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:

> In article <paul.nospam-9AB957.21090904012010@pbook.sture.ch>, Paul Sture 
> <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes:
> > 
> > This is one area where I have a real grouse about OpenOffice. It insists 
> > that CSV files must be named .csv, even if you are using tab delimited 
> > files.
> 
>    Emulating Excell a little too much.

I don't have access to Excel at the moment, but I don't recall it being 
a problem there.

It's annoying and inconvenient having to copy or rename files just to 
import them into a spreadsheet.

Oh, I can get the source and add my own mods. Ha Ha Ha - have you seen the
size of the thing?

(and unless I'm running on Linux I'd have to set up a whole environment
first).

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <pX97wXRCR6xo@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
 koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:

> In article <4b3fc001$0$274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, 
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> > 
> > You have never seen a Windows system and a non-Windows communicate ??
> 
>    I have seen Windows accept data that was gennerated on other
>    platforms, where standards were followed.  And I have seen MS
>    products generate HTML that insisted only Explorer can display
>    JPEG files.  In fact, I've seen lots of MS products that generated
>    data that violated standards in ways that only MS products would
>    accept.

You _really_ don't want to experience the .HTM files which formed the
documentation for the Lacie external CD/DVD burner I bought in
December 2008 (yes, that recently).

Once I'd got over the hurdle of .HTM files being associated with MSIE on 
my Mac (huh - I remember deleting it, how did it come back?), I then
had some serious hacking to do to read the documentation.

Small wonder that when I picked the device off the dealer's shelf there
were a couple which had obviously been returned.

The device itself works absolutely fine, just a pity about the choice
of format for the documentation.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <00bff44f$0$17148$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> > Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
> > selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
> > native VMS.
> 
> 
> DECwrite did it. So did DECdocument.  WPSplus had some font support as
> well (but rendered on printers, not on VT220, except for the technical
> character set).

Richard specified "(not layered products)" there.

I once used Digital Standard Runoff with a daisy wheel printer to get
special effects, though I don't remember specifics.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <DdWdnboFgKI-i9nWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
> native VMS.

   Just becuase you don't have the tool, doesn't mean the OS is
   preventing it.

   But do try the Japanese version some day.

In article <7qjh2nFhiqU8@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> What's your point?  Were you expecting a server on the desktop?
> Of course, the same is true of any of the other email systems.

   No, it's not.  All my VMS, UNIX, and Linux systems will serve
   mail without any additional cost.  (I choose to buy Multinet because
   it's a superior product, but the UCX license comes with.)

In article <7qjh5jFhiqU9@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> I provided an example that disproves this.  Care to provide an example
> to support your claim?

   You will provide a .docx that is pure XML and I can't unzip something
   from inside it?  Yes, I'd like to see that.

In article <7qjghcFhiqU5@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>  
> Try again.  I just created a .docx file from Word, moved it to Unix
> and unzipped it.

   Which proves my point, since ZIP is not XML.

   You want a docx made by Word with a .doc file inside, too?

In article <DdWdnboFgKI-i9nWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
> native VMS.

    Runoff.

In article <ZuWNTmjvaaAK@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <7qjh2nFhiqU8@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>> What's your point?  Were you expecting a server on the desktop?
>> Of course, the same is true of any of the other email systems.
> 
>    No, it's not.  All my VMS, UNIX, and Linux systems will serve
>    mail without any additional cost.  (I choose to buy Multinet because
>    it's a superior product, but the UCX license comes with.)

When you install server software on them.  I can install sendmail on
a PC, too.  But I know better.  Windows actually used to install lots
of server apps on desktops.  And people complained about the insecurity.
Now we have people complaining because they stopped doing it.  MS can't
win no matter what they do, but then, that's the nature of religious
beliefs wether they are for or against something.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <lVI2$Y4MNdZS@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <7qjghcFhiqU5@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>  
>> Try again.  I just created a .docx file from Word, moved it to Unix
>> and unzipped it.
> 
>    Which proves my point, since ZIP is not XML.

Everyone said .docx was a zip file.  You said it contains a .doc.

It doesn't. It contains XML files.
 
>    You want a docx made by Word with a .doc file inside, too?

I don't.  You said they do that I say they don't I provided a list
of all the files contained in a .docx file I just created.  I would
like to see youre .docx fiel that contains a .doc inside.

Like I said, people complained for years about MS proprietary formats
and then they change to XML, a standard, and everyone stil complains.
The nature of religion.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <+EbsD5mSjJRW@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <7qjh5jFhiqU9@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>> I provided an example that disproves this.  Care to provide an example
>> to support your claim?
> 
>    You will provide a .docx that is pure XML and I can't unzip something
>    from inside it?  Yes, I'd like to see that.

Why do you insist on twisting the things people say all the time.
Eeveryone has said so far that a .dcox file is a zip archive, not
an XML file.  But all the contents are XML and not .doc.  If you
have evidence to the contrary provide it.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <7qjfu4FhiqU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <AyzF6Rqgzkoc@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> In article <7qecbeF3tt7rbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>> 
>>> Of course it does.  If I want to run an executable file under VMS
>>> using RUN if the file ends in .EXE I don't have to include the
>>> extension but if it is anything else, I do.  VMS uses extensions
>>> just like other OSes.
>> 
>>    You ever try to convince a UNIX cc command that you have C source
>>    in a .a file?  You can do that on VMS.  I don't but not because the
>>    OS or its layered products force me.
> 
>cc -x c xxx.a

       -x language
           Specify explicitly the language for the following input files (rather than letting the compiler choose a default
           based on the file name suffix).  This option applies to all following input files until the next -x option.  Possible
           values for language are:

                   c  c-header  c-cpp-output
                   c++  c++-header  c++-cpp-output
                   objective-c  objective-c-header  objective-c-cpp-output
                   objective-c++ objective-c++-header objective-c++-cpp-output
                   assembler  assembler-with-cpp
                   ada
                   f77  f77-cpp-input f95  f95-cpp-input
                   java


>Worked just fine for me on FreeBSD 6.1 with GCC 3.4.4. Pprobably
>wouldn't work on the old Ultrix cc but I don't have a system handy
>to find out.

...and you faulted $ RUN because it defaults to .EXE yet didn't understand
that it doesn't matter the extension.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

In article <QdydnfWzKbl6P9nWnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <DdWdnboFgKI-i9nWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>>> In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS.  It's 
>>>>> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively 
>>>>> can output only ASCII text.  You can run it on a workstation but I think 
>>>>> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
>>>>    Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"?  I've
>>>>    been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
>>>>
>>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
>>> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
>>> native VMS.
>> 
>> $ CONVERT/DOCUMENT ASCII.TXT/FORMAT=TEXT POSTSCRIPT.PS/FORMAT=PS
>
>Simply converting to PostScript is not terribly useful.  The output 
>would still be in the original format.  It would have to be fixed up to 
>change text sizes and fonts where applicable.  It would be easier to do 
>that in LaTeX and let it generate the PostScript.

See /OPTIONS.  CDA, a layered product, needs to be installed in most of the
cases.  However, one can encapsulate the output in antoher postscript file
to changes fonts, etc.  And, last I looked, Postscript was just ASCII. ;)

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <DdWdnboFgKI-i9nWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
>> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
>> native VMS.
> 
>    Just becuase you don't have the tool, doesn't mean the OS is
>    preventing it.
> 
I never said that the O/S was preventing it.

>    But do try the Japanese version some day.
> 
No thanks, I neither read nor write kanji.  Once upon a time I could 
write my nickname in katakana but that was 45 years ago.

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <DdWdnboFgKI-i9nWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
>> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
>> native VMS.
> 
>     Runoff.
> 

It has been many years since I last used Runoff.  I do not recall that 
it offered any choice as to fonts and type sizes.

In article <00A9725E.9E56C26F@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <7qjfu4FhiqU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>In article <AyzF6Rqgzkoc@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>>	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>> In article <7qecbeF3tt7rbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>> 
>>>> Of course it does.  If I want to run an executable file under VMS
>>>> using RUN if the file ends in .EXE I don't have to include the
>>>> extension but if it is anything else, I do.  VMS uses extensions
>>>> just like other OSes.
>>> 
>>>    You ever try to convince a UNIX cc command that you have C source
>>>    in a .a file?  You can do that on VMS.  I don't but not because the
>>>    OS or its layered products force me.
>> 
>>cc -x c xxx.a
> 
>        -x language
>            Specify explicitly the language for the following input files (rather than letting the compiler choose a default
>            based on the file name suffix).  This option applies to all following input files until the next -x option.  Possible
>            values for language are:
> 
>                    c  c-header  c-cpp-output
>                    c++  c++-header  c++-cpp-output
>                    objective-c  objective-c-header  objective-c-cpp-output
>                    objective-c++ objective-c++-header objective-c++-cpp-output
>                    assembler  assembler-with-cpp
>                    ada
>                    f77  f77-cpp-input f95  f95-cpp-input
>                    java
> 
> 
>>Worked just fine for me on FreeBSD 6.1 with GCC 3.4.4. Pprobably
>>wouldn't work on the old Ultrix cc but I don't have a system handy
>>to find out.
> 
> ..and you faulted $ RUN because it defaults to .EXE yet didn't understand
> that it doesn't matter the extension.

I didn't fault anything.  As a matter of fact, When someone else
mentioned the significance of .EXE I specificaly said I created
and executed a file with an extension of .ZIP under VMS.

The above example is, of course, not an OS dependence anyway, it
is an application dependence.  Bob seemed to think that there was
no way to get around it and I merely pointred out that unless you
are using 20 year old software, it is trivial to get around it.  Of
course, the question remains as to why one would want to name a C
file "something.a" in the first place.  Now, an Ada file, that's a
horse of a different color.  :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <gPmdnfVoO7cUfdnWnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
>> In article <DdWdnboFgKI-i9nWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and 
>>> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not 
>>> native VMS.
>> 
>>    Just becuase you don't have the tool, doesn't mean the OS is
>>    preventing it.
>> 
> I never said that the O/S was preventing it.
> 
>>    But do try the Japanese version some day.
>> 
> No thanks, I neither read nor write kanji.  Once upon a time I could 
> write my nickname in katakana but that was 45 years ago.

Well, as long as someone brought up the subjects of names and oriental
languages....  :-)

On my recent trip to Korea I did get nametags amde that have my name
in both English and Korean.  Not a lot of value, but they make a nice
souvenier.

Actually, I even sent a few postcards home with Thanksgiving (Chusok
actually) Greetings written in Korean.  I was amazed at easy it was
to learn to write some simple phrase in Korean.  Of course I also
learned that like Chinese Korean is another language where they don't
use one word where they can use a paragraph.  :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On Jan 6, 4:50=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
> > In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B.=
 Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
> >> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS. =A0I=
t's
> >> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively
> >> can output only ASCII text. =A0You can run it on a workstation but I t=
hink
> >> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
>
> > =A0 =A0Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"? =
=A0I've
> > =A0 =A0been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
>
> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and
> selectable type sizes? =A0I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's no=
t
> native VMS.

Let's assume that you consider DECwindows Motif not a layered product.
Is that OK?

If you have Motif, then you have the DECwindows Mail which I mentioned
earlier, which iirc had a proper WYSYWIG GUI.

If you consult the relevant docs (eg Managing DECwindows Motif for
OpenVMS, at
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6300/6300pro.html
), you don't exactly find a fully functional WYSYWIG word processor
like DECwrite, but you do find:

    * Applications
          o Bookreader
          o Calculator
          o Calendar
          o Cardfiler
          o Clock
          o CDA Viewer
          o DECsound
          o DECterm
          o FileView
          o Mail
          o Notepad
          o Paint
          o PrintScreen

Notepad, iirc, wasn't basic like MS Notepad, it was a proper WYSYWIG
notepad.

And in addition to the layered products JF already mentioned, there
was notably also a DECwindows version of (VAX/DEC) NOTES. Fancy that,
a distributed forum-like tool which could do text *and pictures*
(albeit without the delights back then of animated per-user avatars
and other such modern-bbs essentials).

There was also another layered product to handle scanning of images to
CDA documents, and there may have been other stuff I've forgotten.

The fact that you're unaware of these things may just highlight what a
poor job DEC did back then of making people aware of what you could do
with a VMS (or DEC UNIX) workstation desktop.

There's an entirely separate discussion to have about whether WYSYWIG
(DECwrite, Interleaf, Word, etc) or a text-based tool (TeX, LaTeX,
DECdocument) is most appropriate for any given set of jobs, but in the
volume market, WYSYWIG seems to rule the world these days, so let's
take that as read for now.

John Wallace wrote:
> On Jan 6, 4:50 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>> In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS.  It's
>>>> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively
>>>> can output only ASCII text.  You can run it on a workstation but I think
>>>> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
>>>    Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"?  I've
>>>    been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and
>> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not
>> native VMS.
> 
> Let's assume that you consider DECwindows Motif not a layered product.
> Is that OK?
> 

No, it's not OK!  It's a layered product, separately licensed and, of 
course, expensive!  If the license had not been included with my Alpha 
Station 200 I couldn't afford it!

John Wallace schrieb:

> 
> There was also another layered product to handle scanning of images to
> CDA documents, and there may have been other stuff I've forgotten.
> 
> The fact that you're unaware of these things may just highlight what a
> poor job DEC did back then of making people aware of what you could do
> with a VMS (or DEC UNIX) workstation desktop.

as I wander through Ultrix condists (of 1993/94 vintage)
I find (apart from the usual DECwrite, DECpresent, DECexpress etc)
various DECimage and CDA converter products.
Would that still be somewhat useful today?

On Jan 6, 10:55=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> John Wallace wrote:
> > On Jan 6, 4:50 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Bob Koehler wrote:
> >>> In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard =
B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
> >>>> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS. =
=A0It's
> >>>> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that nativel=
y
> >>>> can output only ASCII text. =A0You can run it on a workstation but I=
 think
> >>>> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
> >>> =A0 =A0Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"=
? =A0I've
> >>> =A0 =A0been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
> >> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and
> >> selectable type sizes? =A0I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's=
 not
> >> native VMS.
>
> > Let's assume that you consider DECwindows Motif not a layered product.
> > Is that OK?
>
> No, it's not OK! =A0It's a layered product, separately licensed and, of
> course, expensive! =A0If the license had not been included with my Alpha
> Station 200 I couldn't afford it!

"Separately licensed ... expensive"
"Included with my AlphaStation"

You want it both ways, best of luck with that.

In the real world, it was pretty much impossible for ordinary folks to
buy an AlphaStation without the "expensive"/"free" Motif licence
through normal channels, same as it's pretty much impossible today to
buy a mass-market PC without the "expensive"/"free" Windows licence (a
Windows licence which also doesn't get you any real applications - no
real WP, no real email, etc).

An AlphaStation would usually come bundled with a NAS150 client
licence, which would include Motif, DECnet, and TCP/IP. VMS ones also
included VMScluster client. Not bad value for money if it comes as
part of the system. Adding a NAS150 licence to a system that didn't
have one was a different story, but not relevant here.

Even with the price including an OS licence and a NAS150/Motif
licence, the AlphaStations were reasonably competitive with other
vendors' UNIX workstations, which at the time DEC HQ said were the
competition. PCs were allegedly still a different market segment (even
though the electronics inside the AlphaStations already had a great
deal in common with PCs, commonality which would increase as time went
by e.g. the AlphaStation 400 and then the PWS family shared hardware
as well as electronics).

Obviously history shows that UNIX workstations eventually didn't do
all that well either, but at the time, that wasn't the received wisdom
outside the box shifting market.

Michael Kraemer wrote:

> I find (apart from the usual DECwrite, DECpresent, DECexpress etc)
> various DECimage and CDA converter products.
> Would that still be somewhat useful today?

DECwrite was way ahead of what Microsoft Word could offer back then.
Just imagine if Digital had continued active development of its office
products at a time when Microsoft was still with Windows 3.1 with barely
any networking capabilities.


Digital is a story of missed opportunities.

John Wallace wrote:
> On Jan 6, 10:55 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> John Wallace wrote:
>>> On Jan 6, 4:50 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>>>> In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>>> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS.  It's
>>>>>> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that natively
>>>>>> can output only ASCII text.  You can run it on a workstation but I think
>>>>>> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
>>>>>    Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII text"?  I've
>>>>>    been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
>>>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts and
>>>> selectable type sizes?  I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that's not
>>>> native VMS.
>>> Let's assume that you consider DECwindows Motif not a layered product.
>>> Is that OK?
>> No, it's not OK!  It's a layered product, separately licensed and, of
>> course, expensive!  If the license had not been included with my Alpha
>> Station 200 I couldn't afford it!
> 
> "Separately licensed ... expensive"
> "Included with my AlphaStation"
> 
> You want it both ways, best of luck with that.
> 

I don't want it "both ways"!  I was simply observing that commercial 
licenses, as opposed to hobbyist licenses, cost a great deal of money.
My Alphastation came with VMS, and NAS-150 (I think it was 150. . . .)

If I had picked my system out of a dumpster and had to buy the suite of 
licenses I would not be able to afford them.  I think a FORTRAN license
would cost me something like $1500-$2000 if I had to pay list price.

There are special pricing programs for hobbyists and developers but it's 
not quite the same as having licenses that are unrestricted and good 
until the system hits the dumpster.

On Jan 7, 2:03=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> John Wallace wrote:
> > On Jan 6, 10:55 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> John Wallace wrote:
> >>> On Jan 6, 4:50 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
> >>>>> In article <oe6dnbsExJlqqtzWnZ2dnUVZ_uCdn...@giganews.com>, "Richar=
d B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
> >>>>>> I wouldn't expect ANY word processor to be a huge success on VMS. =
=A0It's
> >>>>>> damned difficult to run a WYSIWYG processor on a system that nativ=
ely
> >>>>>> can output only ASCII text. =A0You can run it on a workstation but=
 I think
> >>>>>> it's a great deal cheaper to run it on a PC.
> >>>>> =A0 =A0Why in the world do you think VMS "can output only ASCII tex=
t"? =A0I've
> >>>>> =A0 =A0been using other data formats on VMS since 1980.
> >>>> Which tools in VMS (not layered products) output selectable fonts an=
d
> >>>> selectable type sizes? =A0I can do a lot with TeX and LaTeX but that=
's not
> >>>> native VMS.
> >>> Let's assume that you consider DECwindows Motif not a layered product=
..
> >>> Is that OK?
> >> No, it's not OK! =A0It's a layered product, separately licensed and, o=
f
> >> course, expensive! =A0If the license had not been included with my Alp=
ha
> >> Station 200 I couldn't afford it!
>
> > "Separately licensed ... expensive"
> > "Included with my AlphaStation"
>
> > You want it both ways, best of luck with that.
>
> I don't want it "both ways"! =A0I was simply observing that commercial
> licenses, as opposed to hobbyist licenses, cost a great deal of money.
> My Alphastation came with VMS, and NAS-150 (I think it was 150. . . .)
>
> If I had picked my system out of a dumpster and had to buy the suite of
> licenses I would not be able to afford them. =A0I think a FORTRAN license
> would cost me something like $1500-$2000 if I had to pay list price.
>
> There are special pricing programs for hobbyists and developers but it's
> not quite the same as having licenses that are unrestricted and good
> until the system hits the dumpster.

OK, one more time.

The vast majority of real-world commercial AlphaStation customers with
a Motif or NAS150 licence would not have paid "a great deal of money"
for it, because it would have been part of the bundle when they bought
the system, and it would have been at a very very very attractive
bundled price, much less than the standalone price. As I said earlier,
buying and paying for one (NAS150) standalone is a different (and
fortunately much rarer) can of worms, and cannot really be used as a
basis for any meaningful price comparisons.

The same obviously cannot be said for things like FORTRAN compiler
licences, but as you know, folks in commercial software development
businesses could get massive discounts on the development tools via an
annually-renewable program whose name I forget, as could academic
folks via DECcampus (?). For non-hobbyist folk not in those categories
then yes a system-wide licence for e.g. FORTRAN would have cost a lot,
but a limited-users or named-users licence would have been a lot
cheaper and addressed a lot of commercial requirements where there
were a handful of developers on a big box.

Incidentally, if FORTRAN is your thing, have you seen the price of
Intel FORTRAN, which if I remember rightly is where Steve Lionel ended
up?

In article <7qk1dmF8ebU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> When you install server software on them.  I can install sendmail on
> a PC, too.  But I know better.  Windows actually used to install lots
> of server apps on desktops.  And people complained about the insecurity.
> Now we have people complaining because they stopped doing it.  MS can't
> win no matter what they do, but then, that's the nature of religious
> beliefs wether they are for or against something.

   The server software, however, is free with the VMS, UNIX, and Linux.
   And none of the versions of the MS Outhouse client that I've had
   access to would operate as an SMTP client.  You have to buy and
   install the Outhouse server.
   
   And since I'm forced to use Outhouse by one of my clients, I can
   see the shortcomings of it's server.

In article <7qk1koF8ebU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>  
>>    You want a docx made by Word with a .doc file inside, too?
> 
> I don't.  [...]  I would
> like to see youre .docx fiel that contains a .doc inside.

   I guess your not sure.  But at about this time I think it's just time
   for the kill file.

In article <7qk1ohF8ebU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> Why do you insist on twisting the things people say all the time.
> Eeveryone has said so far that a .dcox file is a zip archive, not
> an XML file.  But all the contents are XML and not .doc.  If you
> have evidence to the contrary provide it.

   Everyone else said it's a zip file, you said it's XML.

In article <00A9725F.12C1B255@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> See /OPTIONS.  CDA, a layered product, needs to be installed in most of the
> cases.  However, one can encapsulate the output in antoher postscript file
> to changes fonts, etc.  And, last I looked, Postscript was just ASCII. ;)

   Runoff is not a layered product, does not require separate
   installation, and if you choose /device=LNxx will change fonts and
   such as the OP querried.

   I almost forgot about it myself.  But I did use it with some LN03
   and later DEC laser printers.

In article <d3a09e3f-714f-4988-8eb0-5b199a71b6b4@j5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> OK, one more time.
> 
> The vast majority of real-world commercial AlphaStation customers with
> a Motif or NAS150 licence would not have paid "a great deal of money"
> for it, because it would have been part of the bundle when they bought
> the system, and it would have been at a very very very attractive
> bundled price, much less than the standalone price.

   We actually had a system where the owner got themselves into a corner
   and had to buy a separate DECwindows license.  It was not terribly
   expensive.

   And it was somewhat thier own fault.  DEC tried to give them
   DECwindows licneses for free for all their systems just several
   months before.

-----Original Message-----
From: info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com] On Beh=
alf Of Bob Koehler
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:19 AM
To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] OT: Rob Short: Operating System Evolution

In article <7qk1koF8ebU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gu=
nshannon) writes:
>
>>    You want a docx made by Word with a .doc file inside, too?
>
> I don't.  [...]  I would
> like to see youre .docx fiel that contains a .doc inside.

   I guess your not sure.  But at about this time I think it's just time
   for the kill file.

You boys really need to get along.

Looking at the MS site it seems that a "native" .docx file (zip archive) do=
es not contain an embedded .doc file. If the document is created from scrat=
ch with Word 2003 the document body with formatting, header and footer info=
, etc. are all stored in the archive as a collection of pure XML files.

If you use Word 2003 to open an existing .doc file and save it as .docx  th=
e archive will contain the same files as above as well as a copy of the ori=
ginal .doc file.

Dan

"Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message 
news:AGeXP7lvdb$4@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> In article <7qk1dmF8ebU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill 
> Gunshannon) writes:
>>
>> When you install server software on them.  I can install sendmail on
>> a PC, too.  But I know better.  Windows actually used to install lots
>> of server apps on desktops.  And people complained about the insecurity.
>> Now we have people complaining because they stopped doing it.  MS can't
>> win no matter what they do, but then, that's the nature of religious
>> beliefs wether they are for or against something.
>
>   The server software, however, is free with the VMS, UNIX, and Linux.
>   And none of the versions of the MS Outhouse client that I've had
>   access to would operate as an SMTP client.  You have to buy and
>   install the Outhouse server.
>
>   And since I'm forced to use Outhouse by one of my clients, I can
>   see the shortcomings of it's server.

Server editions of Windows include an SMTP server and a POP server.  You 
don't have to buy Outlook or Exchange or anything else.
 

Allen, Daniel P. wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com] On Behalf Of Bob Koehler
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:19 AM
> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] OT: Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
> 
> In article <7qk1koF8ebU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>    You want a docx made by Word with a .doc file inside, too?
>> I don't.  [...]  I would
>> like to see youre .docx fiel that contains a .doc inside.
> 
>    I guess your not sure.  But at about this time I think it's just time
>    for the kill file.
> 
> You boys really need to get along.
> 
> Looking at the MS site it seems that a "native" .docx file (zip archive) does not contain an embedded .doc file. If the document is created from scratch with Word 2003 the document body with formatting, header and footer info, etc. are all stored in the archive as a collection of pure XML files.
> 
> If you use Word 2003 to open an existing .doc file and save it as .docx  the archive will contain the same files as above as well as a copy of the original .doc file.
> 
> Dan
> 

Wasn't it Office 2007 (and later) that introduced the .---x file names ?
2003 (and before) uses the old non-XML formats , if I'm not wrong.

Allen, Daniel P. mentioned  on 7-1-2010 19:55:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com] On Behalf Of Bob Koehler
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:19 AM
> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] OT: Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
> 
> In article <7qk1koF8ebU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>    You want a docx made by Word with a .doc file inside, too?
>> I don't.  [...]  I would
>> like to see youre .docx fiel that contains a .doc inside.
> 
>    I guess your not sure.  But at about this time I think it's just time
>    for the kill file.
> 
> You boys really need to get along.
> 
> Looking at the MS site it seems that a "native" .docx file (zip archive) does not contain an embedded .doc file. If the document is created from scratch with Word 2003 the document body with formatting, header and footer info, etc. are all stored in the archive as a collection of pure XML files.
> 
> If you use Word 2003 to open an existing .doc file and save it as .docx  the archive will contain the same files as above as well as a copy of the original .doc file.
> 
> Dan
> 

Dan, this is untrue.

There is no way for vanilla Word 2003 to "save as" *.docx (XML format), 
since the docx format was introduced in Word 2007.

And even when I open a Word 2003 *.doc document with Word 2007, and then 
save it as a *.docx, the original *.doc file is not in the *.docx XML 
archive. When you rename the *.docx to *.zip, you just find a bunch of 
*.xml inside, one of them being document.xml, that contains the actual 
document contents.

/Wilm

In article <mailman.14.1262890536.14033.info-vax_rbnsn.com@rbnsn.com>, "Allen, Daniel P." <daniel.allen@nist.gov> writes:
> 
> If you use Word 2003 to open an existing .doc file and save it as .docx  th=
> e archive will contain the same files as above as well as a copy of the ori=
> ginal .doc file.

   That I can believe, thanks for looking it up.

In article <%wr1n.14434$U5.222268@newsb.telia.net>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes:
> 
> Wasn't it Office 2007 (and later) that introduced the .---x file names ?
> 2003 (and before) uses the old non-XML formats , if I'm not wrong.

   Yep.
 

In article <4B46DAD4.4030307@planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <w6.boerhout@planet.nl> writes:
>> 
>> If you use Word 2003 to open an existing .doc file and save it as .docx  the archive will contain the same files as above as well as a copy of the original .doc file.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
> 
> Dan, this is untrue.

   It's fully in agreement with my experience.

Wilm Boerhout wrote:
> Allen, Daniel P. mentioned  on 7-1-2010 19:55:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com] 
>> On Behalf Of Bob Koehler
>> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:19 AM
>> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] OT: Rob Short: Operating System Evolution
>>
>> In article <7qk1koF8ebU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu 
>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>    You want a docx made by Word with a .doc file inside, too?
>>> I don't.  [...]  I would
>>> like to see youre .docx fiel that contains a .doc inside.
>>
>>    I guess your not sure.  But at about this time I think it's just time
>>    for the kill file.
>>
>> You boys really need to get along.
>>
>> Looking at the MS site it seems that a "native" .docx file (zip 
>> archive) does not contain an embedded .doc file. If the document is 
>> created from scratch with Word 2003 the document body with formatting, 
>> header and footer info, etc. are all stored in the archive as a 
>> collection of pure XML files.
>>
>> If you use Word 2003 to open an existing .doc file and save it as 
>> .docx  the archive will contain the same files as above as well as a 
>> copy of the original .doc file.
>>
>> Dan
>>
> 
> Dan, this is untrue.
> 
> There is no way for vanilla Word 2003 to "save as" *.docx (XML format), 
> since the docx format was introduced in Word 2007.
> 
> And even when I open a Word 2003 *.doc document with Word 2007, and then 
> save it as a *.docx, the original *.doc file is not in the *.docx XML 
> archive. When you rename the *.docx to *.zip, you just find a bunch of 
> *.xml inside, one of them being document.xml, that contains the actual 
> document contents.
> 
> /Wilm

Actually, Word 2003 can "save as" a Word 2007 file.

Microsoft released a "compatibility kit" that gives .docx capability all 
the way back to Word 2000.  While you may argue that this is not 
"vanilla", you should be updating your office environment in any case to 
deal with some of the security/stability issues.

I find it interesting that it was possible to retrofit .docx file on 
Word 2000.  This seems to imply that there haven't been any significant 
capabilities added to the file format since then.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.

Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com
   Fax: 817-237-3074

On Jan 8, 5:57=A0pm, Chris Scheers <ch...@applied-synergy.com> wrote:
> I find it interesting that it was possible to retrofit .docx file on
> Word 2000. =A0This seems to imply that there haven't been any significant
> capabilities added to the file format since then.
>

Not necessarily.

Making a change to Word 2000 so that it can generate something that
can be read by Word 2007 is trivial, because Word 2007 already reads
Word 2000 files.  The only thing that would need to be introduced to
support a "Save As .DOCX" is the ZIP file wrapper, throw in the native
Word 2000 .doc file, and some XML that says, "hey, this thing contains
an older format file".  Word 2007 would need only check the XML file,
realize that there's a Word 2000 format .doc file in there, and then
translate the .doc to XML on the fly.

Just because Word 2000 can generate a .docx file which contains
sufficient information to tell Word 2007 how to process it doesn't
mean there isn't any new functionality in a Word 2007 file.  Consider
all the possible XML tags that would describe new functionality in
Word 2007 which Word 2000 wouldn't be able to handle at all.

www.noesys.com

On 05-01-2010 21:57, Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article<7qe7k1F3ukpruU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> The new format is .docx, which is xml.  I am always amazed at how
>> many people who always bitched about MS proprietary formats bitch
>> just as lound about their use of XML.
>
>     No.  .docx is zip.  It contains some XML files and a .doc file, which
>     is also not XML.

The content of .docx is XML - it is just zipped to save space.

Similar to that a lot of web servers serve HTML as GZIP'ed.

Arne

FrankS wrote:
> On Jan 8, 5:57 pm, Chris Scheers <ch...@applied-synergy.com> wrote:
>> I find it interesting that it was possible to retrofit .docx file on
>> Word 2000.  This seems to imply that there haven't been any significant
>> capabilities added to the file format since then.
>>
> 
> Not necessarily.
> 
> Making a change to Word 2000 so that it can generate something that
> can be read by Word 2007 is trivial, because Word 2007 already reads
> Word 2000 files.  The only thing that would need to be introduced to
> support a "Save As .DOCX" is the ZIP file wrapper, throw in the native
> Word 2000 .doc file, and some XML that says, "hey, this thing contains
> an older format file".  Word 2007 would need only check the XML file,
> realize that there's a Word 2000 format .doc file in there, and then
> translate the .doc to XML on the fly.
> 
> Just because Word 2000 can generate a .docx file which contains
> sufficient information to tell Word 2007 how to process it doesn't
> mean there isn't any new functionality in a Word 2007 file.  Consider
> all the possible XML tags that would describe new functionality in
> Word 2007 which Word 2000 wouldn't be able to handle at all.
> 
> www.noesys.com

You missed the point.

With the 2007 compatibility kit, Word 2000 can READ and use .docx files.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.

Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com
   Fax: 817-237-3074

On Jan 9, 4:47=A0pm, Chris Scheers <ch...@applied-synergy.com> wrote:
> With the 2007 compatibility kit, Word 2000 can READ and use .docx files.
>

From: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/ha100444731033.aspx

"Although you can open Office Word 2007 files in previous versions of
Word, you may not be able to change some items that were created by
using the new or enhanced features in Office Word 2007. For example,
equations will become images that cannot be changed. The following is
a list of document elements that are changed when they are opened in a
previous version of Word. ..."

www.noesys.com

FrankS wrote:
> On Jan 9, 4:47 pm, Chris Scheers <ch...@applied-synergy.com> wrote:
>> With the 2007 compatibility kit, Word 2000 can READ and use .docx files.
>>
> 
> From: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/ha100444731033.aspx
> 
> "Although you can open Office Word 2007 files in previous versions of
> Word, you may not be able to change some items that were created by
> using the new or enhanced features in Office Word 2007. For example,
> equations will become images that cannot be changed. The following is
> a list of document elements that are changed when they are opened in a
> previous version of Word. ..."

Thank you for that reference.  I had not seen it before.

While I do not use it myself, I can say that I set up the 2007 
compatibility pack for my daughter to use with Word 2000.  She uses it 
to exchange .docx documents within her team (mixed versions of Word) and 
no one has had any problems.

And they do use equations heavily, but I think the equations are created 
in an earlier version of Equation Editor and not in Word 2007 itself.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.

Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com
   Fax: 817-237-3074