I don't remember voting on this:

"The 10,000-member Encompass user group has endorsed the plan. But ITUG 
(formerly the Tandem user group), OpenView Forum International and the 
100,000-member Interex group are voicing concerns."

and how many of these 10k members are old DECUS folks because I doubt 
many VMS shop would say that this is good, being further buried behind 
HP's agenda:

"...And they're worried that the plan would replace user-focused 
conferences with a vendor-sponsored, marketing-driven event."

but you have to wonder about Ms. Browder, where do her roots come from 
and where are they today:

"But the idea of having a technical solutions conference was welcomed by 
members of Encompass, said Kristi Browder, president of the organization 
that has its roots in the Digital Equipment Corp. user group."

Isn't it ironic that the group representing VMS interests seems like the 
only group that didn't have a problem with this?

Barry

-- 

Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com
Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320
Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028
                       

In article <410559D2.5060501@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:

  From my view deep within the trenches of OpenVMS Engineering, there are 
  solicitations for a number of events and meetings every year, with the
  two largest ones (that I hear about) typically being HP World and the
  Bootcamp.   (There are other events and other meetings of course, with
  specific audiences targeted by market, by region, or otherwise.)

  HP World covers the majority of the HP product lines, while the OpenVMS
  Bootcamp covers OpenVMS specifically -- the relative technical depth and
  the numbers of sessions will obviously follow the targets for each of 
  the events, of course.

  There is simply no way we can ship large numbers of OpenVMS Engineers
  off to a remote event for some or all of a week (or more), where we
  can have many of the same engineers in attendence at the Bootcamp
  event; with the event here in Nashua, adjacent to the main OpenVMS
  Engineering site.  This is simple logistics, and basic scheduling.

  We are also asked to participate in smaller regional events or to
  present at users' group meetings, and to participate in the OpenVMS
  Technical Update days. 

  We are also asked to design, code, debug and support OpenVMS itself,
  of course.  :-)  Y'all want to see us release V8.2 on schedule, yes?

  Put another way, if I were to want detailed and technical content for
  OpenVMS and how I could use it to my financial advantage, I would want
  to attend the OpenVMS Bootcamp.   If I wanted to learn about the many
 and varied HP product lines and how they can help me and my business
  profit, I would want to attend HP World.

 ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------
    For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq
 --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------
        Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com

In article <410559D2.5060501@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:
{...snip...}
>Isn't it ironic that the group representing VMS interests seems like the 
>only group that didn't have a problem with this?

What group is that?  Surely you don't mean Encompass.  

-- 
http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security
                            solutions that others only claim to be.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

Hoff Hoffman wrote:
>   There is simply no way we can ship large numbers of OpenVMS Engineers
>   off to a remote event for some or all of a week (or more),

Fed Ex is your friend :-)

It would just be a matter of Sue ordering sufficient number of cages and stuff
enough of your natural habitat foods (chips and coke) in them to make the trip
easier :-) :-)

And she could even make you more comfortable by outfitting each cage with a
tadpole laptop equipped with wireless so you could continue to work on VMS
during transit.

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

However, what could be arranged above and beyond the bootcamp would be some
virtual meetings or distribution of materials on the net which would reach
audiences around the world without requiring the engineers be shipped via
FedEx or UPS.

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message
news:410574B6.79F87D9F@teksavvy.com...
> Hoff Hoffman wrote:
> >   There is simply no way we can ship large numbers of OpenVMS Engineers
> >   off to a remote event for some or all of a week (or more),
>
> Fed Ex is your friend :-)
>
> It would just be a matter of Sue ordering sufficient number of cages and
stuff
> enough of your natural habitat foods (chips and coke) in them to make the
trip
> easier :-) :-)

Hmmm.  Reminds me of Richie's door on 5-5.

- bill

Hoff Hoffman wrote:
> 
> In article <410559D2.5060501@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:
> 
>   From my view deep within the trenches of OpenVMS Engineering, there are
>   solicitations for a number of events and meetings every year, with the
>   two largest ones (that I hear about) typically being HP World and the
>   Bootcamp.   (There are other events and other meetings of course, with
>   specific audiences targeted by market, by region, or otherwise.)
> 
>   HP World covers the majority of the HP product lines, while the OpenVMS
>   Bootcamp covers OpenVMS specifically -- the relative technical depth and
>   the numbers of sessions will obviously follow the targets for each of
>   the events, of course.
> 
>   There is simply no way we can ship large numbers of OpenVMS Engineers
>   off to a remote event for some or all of a week (or more), where we
>   can have many of the same engineers in attendence at the Bootcamp
>   event; with the event here in Nashua, adjacent to the main OpenVMS
>   Engineering site.  This is simple logistics, and basic scheduling.
> 
>   We are also asked to participate in smaller regional events or to
>   present at users' group meetings, and to participate in the OpenVMS
>   Technical Update days.
> 
>   We are also asked to design, code, debug and support OpenVMS itself,
>   of course.  :-)  Y'all want to see us release V8.2 on schedule, yes?
> 
>   Put another way, if I were to want detailed and technical content for
>   OpenVMS and how I could use it to my financial advantage, I would want
>   to attend the OpenVMS Bootcamp.   If I wanted to learn about the many
>  and varied HP product lines and how they can help me and my business
>   profit, I would want to attend HP World.

My response, then, is about what you would expect:

Tell me how to justify to my family spending a half-month's take-home
pay on the bootcamp, and another week's take-home pay on travel and
accomodations...?

At that rate, my take-home pay won't take me home. (See another thread
wherein is discussed the concept of bottomless pockets.) ...and even if
it did, I'd get kicked out, for sure.

See, with the national symposia, at least a limited number of us can
offset the registration fee by presenting. That just leaves travel and
accomodations. One week's take-home pay is a softer blow to a family's
economy than three.

That option is not available at the bootcamp, and corporate training
budgets are a long-forgotten dream these days.

As the so-called head of the ersatz VMSUS, I would consider sponsoring
the bootcamp at the hotel near Nashua on a break-even basis if hp would
commit OpenVMS engineers and resources to the bootcamp, and forego
profits on the attendees in the form registration fees over and above
the cost of the meetings rooms, AV gear, etc. That might make it more
affordable, if only slightly.

D.J.D.

VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
> In article <410559D2.5060501@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:
> {...snip...}
> >Isn't it ironic that the group representing VMS interests seems like the
> >only group that didn't have a problem with this?
> 
> What group is that?  Surely you don't mean Encompass.

I thought that's what the text said.

....and no, I don't recall hearing about a vote, either. (Perhaps a
"privilege" the board reserved unto themselves?)

....and don't call me Shirley.

D.J.D.

David J Dachtera wrote:
> Tell me how to justify to my family spending a half-month's take-home
> pay on the bootcamp, and another week's take-home pay on travel and
> accomodations...?

> See, with the national symposia, at least a limited number of us can
> offset the registration fee by presenting.

Aren't there deals for those who are "registered developpers" to whatever
program exists for developpers ?

The hotel was reasonably priced, BUT when you combine it with airfare and the
bootcamp costs, the total is quite high. Not everyone has access to low cost
airlines that go to that location.

I agree with you that the bootcamp should be runned as a not-for-profit so
that its cost could be more reasonable and thus attract more independant developpers.

But this is the story of VMS: price it high because you are satisfied with a
few rich customers as opposed to pricing it lower and attract more people.

It is also perhaps a question of Sue having limited resources to organise and
run the event and needs to put a limit on the number of attendees, and a lower
price would generate too much demand.

However, with the demise of what used to be DECUS, perhaps Sue's event could
be widened some. On the other hand, having more direct contact with the
engineers might bring more value than listening to user presentations.

David J Dachtera wrote:
> As the so-called head of the ersatz VMSUS, I would consider sponsoring
> the bootcamp at the hotel near Nashua on a break-even basis if hp would
> commit OpenVMS engineers and resources to the bootcamp, and forego
> profits on the attendees in the form registration fees over and above
> the cost of the meetings rooms, AV gear, etc. That might make it more
> affordable, if only slightly.
> 
> D.J.D.

I'm confused.  Are you implying that Sue runs the bootcamp for a profit? 
  I think we certainly loose money on the operation.  The bootcamp was 
never intended to make money for HP and OpenVMS.

HP already commits LOTS of resources and engineers to the bootcamp.  Ask 
anybody who attended.

Who people like less food or lower services in exchange for a cheaper rate?


-- 
John Reagan
HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader
Hewlett-Packard Company

John Reagan wrote:
> I'm confused.  Are you implying that Sue runs the bootcamp for a profit?
>   I think we certainly loose money on the operation.  The bootcamp was
> never intended to make money for HP and OpenVMS.


It depends on what is included in the costs for accounting purposes.

You see, in a DECUS mindset, because it is/was operated as a volunteer
organisation, none of the organisation manhours counted as a "cost".  You'd
have the rental of rooms (and generally, if you purchased meals, those were
faily cheap at a hotel), meals, and whatever gifts/trinkets you handed out.

In Sue's case would the engineer's times be charged to the event ? Or are
there there "for free" ?

Would the time spent organising the even be charged to the event, or be
considered "free" ?  That would make a huge difference in the costs and thus
to the proce charged to attendees.

John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:
> David J Dachtera wrote:
>> As the so-called head of the ersatz VMSUS, I would consider sponsoring
>> the bootcamp at the hotel near Nashua on a break-even basis if hp would
>> commit OpenVMS engineers and resources to the bootcamp, and forego
>> profits on the attendees in the form registration fees over and above
>> the cost of the meetings rooms, AV gear, etc. That might make it more
>> affordable, if only slightly.
> 
> I'm confused.  Are you implying that Sue runs the bootcamp for a profit? 
>   I think we certainly loose money on the operation.  The bootcamp was 
> never intended to make money for HP and OpenVMS.
> 
> HP already commits LOTS of resources and engineers to the bootcamp.  Ask 
> anybody who attended.
> 
> Who people like less food or lower services in exchange for a cheaper rate?

.. . . And for those who are watching a budget, there is a Red Roof Inn
located a half-mile from the Sheraton (where the bootcamp is held).
Rooms can be had for about $45 a night.  I've spent many a night there --
it's clean.

Since Southwest Airlines flies into MHT (Manchester, NH -- about
30 minutes from Nashua for a slow driver), round trip prices from places
like MDW can be had for about $155 with enough advance planning.

-- 

Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.com

In article <61tNc.6635$A52.2748@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:
>David J Dachtera wrote:
>> As the so-called head of the ersatz VMSUS, I would consider sponsoring
>> the bootcamp at the hotel near Nashua on a break-even basis if hp would
>> commit OpenVMS engineers and resources to the bootcamp, and forego
>> profits on the attendees in the form registration fees over and above
>> the cost of the meetings rooms, AV gear, etc. That might make it more
>> affordable, if only slightly.
>> 
>> D.J.D.
>
>I'm confused.  Are you implying that Sue runs the bootcamp for a profit? 
>  I think we certainly loose money on the operation.  The bootcamp was 
>never intended to make money for HP and OpenVMS.
>
>HP already commits LOTS of resources and engineers to the bootcamp.  Ask 
>anybody who attended.
>
>Who people like less food or lower services in exchange for a cheaper rate?

Contractors and unemployed people, who have to go on their own nickel, would
understandably like it cheaper.  (It would be somewhat difficult to take
advantage of a lowered registration fee unless you lived in convenient driving
distance of the site, though; the hotel rooms, though quite nice, don't have
cooking or refrigerating facilities.)  My guess - based on no knowledge
whatsoever about the economics of the boot camp, but having dealt with
running conferences at hotels before - is that if you discontinued the food
functions you'd probably have to pay higher facility rental rates, and it 
would come close to a wash in how much you paid the hotel.

For me, well, it's my employer's nickel, not mine, but I don't think they'd be
any happier than I would be if I had to rustle up my own grub in exchange for a
lower rate. Having (decent) food available on-site is a good thing and
increases the chances of one-on-one time with the expert on your particular
interest.  If it were at the same site I'd end up either eating in the hotel
restaurant (likely more expensive than the per capita food discount when you
take facilities costs into account) or having to prospect for food in the great
world a couple of times a day, which is kind of a waste.

-- Alan

-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

In article <41068809.6DD07BEB@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:
>John Reagan wrote:
>> I'm confused.  Are you implying that Sue runs the bootcamp for a profit?
>>   I think we certainly loose money on the operation.  The bootcamp was
>> never intended to make money for HP and OpenVMS.
>
>
>It depends on what is included in the costs for accounting purposes.
>
>You see, in a DECUS mindset, because it is/was operated as a volunteer
>organisation, none of the organisation manhours counted as a "cost".  You'd
>have the rental of rooms (and generally, if you purchased meals, those were
>faily cheap at a hotel), meals, and whatever gifts/trinkets you handed out.
>
>In Sue's case would the engineer's times be charged to the event ? Or are
>there there "for free" ?

I think I can say that if the engineer's time is charged to the event
(especially the time spent _preparing_ presentations and so on), it
would cost us more than $1295 for a week.

>Would the time spent organising the even be charged to the event, or be
>considered "free" ?  That would make a huge difference in the costs and thus
>to the proce charged to attendees.

I strongly suspect that the differences in costs come from (a) diseconomies of
small scale and an absence of marketing dollars - not just from  HP/Compaq/DEC)
pumped in to reduce the costs. (There have been DECUS events where, say, dinner
at Universal Studios was paid for by Oracle.)

But I don't actually _know_ anything about this.

-- Alan
-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:
> I think I can say that if the engineer's time is charged to the event
> (especially the time spent _preparing_ presentations and so on), it
> would cost us more than $1295 for a week.

The $1295 cost seems on par with "commercial" courses. It seems very high when
you compare it to DECUS functions (when DECUS existed).

Also remember that when you get a lot of people who book rooms to your hotel,
you can negotiate goodies that help reduce the overall price. (free rooms for
organisers etc).


Perhaps the organisation is done with a "commercial course" revenus
expectation with meals and goodies adjusted to eat up all those revenus. For
DECUS, it was the reverse. Set the affordabls price and then select meals and
goodies according to how much money you'd be getting.

Now that the bootcamp would be in its 3rd year, Sue would have a reasonable
idea of minimum number of attendees, thus greatly reducing the risk and
perhaps allowing a reduced price.

(for the first one, if he had only gotten 25 attendees, then yeah, each
attendee would have had to dish out megabucks in order for event to break even).

"Rob Brooks" <brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message
news:LIatspcCeuvf@cuebid.zko.dec.com...
> John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:
> > David J Dachtera wrote:
> >> As the so-called head of the ersatz VMSUS, I would consider sponsoring
> >> the bootcamp at the hotel near Nashua on a break-even basis if hp would
> >> commit OpenVMS engineers and resources to the bootcamp, and forego
> >> profits on the attendees in the form registration fees over and above
> >> the cost of the meetings rooms, AV gear, etc. That might make it more
> >> affordable, if only slightly.
> >
> > I'm confused.  Are you implying that Sue runs the bootcamp for a profit?
> >   I think we certainly loose money on the operation.  The bootcamp was
> > never intended to make money for HP and OpenVMS.
> >
> > HP already commits LOTS of resources and engineers to the bootcamp.  Ask
> > anybody who attended.
> >
> > Who people like less food or lower services in exchange for a cheaper
rate?
>
> . . . And for those who are watching a budget, there is a Red Roof Inn
> located a half-mile from the Sheraton (where the bootcamp is held).
> Rooms can be had for about $45 a night.  I've spent many a night there --
> it's clean.
>
> Since Southwest Airlines flies into MHT (Manchester, NH -- about
> 30 minutes from Nashua for a slow driver), round trip prices from places
> like MDW can be had for about $155 with enough advance planning.
>

Rob,

I normally try to avoid responding to any 'political' type postings, however
this really warrants a response.

The VMS community is NOT just the US.

I wanted to go to the last Bootcamp, one of my customers was willing to pay
for my time to go, I was willing to pay the airfare from the UK and the
hotel.

Over the last few years that customer has spent Millions (GBP) for VMS kit
(excluding maintenance/service), and 70+k (GBP) for new VMS kit in the last
month alone.

Even given our spend and the commitment from my customer and myself, the hp
account team were unable to get 'other people in hp' to waive the entry fee.

Given the curtailment of other VMS specific events for certain sectors in
the UK, I find this a rather interesting position for hp to adopt.

Meanwhile senior management at my customers organisation have been flown to
Redmond, you guess the rest.

Alex

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message
news:410574B6.79F87D9F@teksavvy.com...
> Hoff Hoffman wrote:
> >   There is simply no way we can ship large numbers of OpenVMS Engineers
> >   off to a remote event for some or all of a week (or more),
>
> Fed Ex is your friend :-)
>
> It would just be a matter of Sue ordering sufficient number of cages and
stuff
> enough of your natural habitat foods (chips and coke) in them to make the
trip
> easier :-) :-)
>
> And she could even make you more comfortable by outfitting each cage with
a
> tadpole laptop equipped with wireless so you could continue to work on VMS
> during transit.
>

There have not been any PCMCIA WiFi cards qualified with the Tadpole
Alphabook 1, I have attempted using various different cards without success.

There is however a supported PCMCIA modem card, this could attached with via
a suitable cable to a mobile phone ('cellphone' for the North American
readers), to provide the remote connectivity you suggest.

The limited battery life would also need to be addressed, as would the fact
the VMS is only qualified up to 7.3-1, although I can confirm 7.3-2 'works'
on them.

Alex

In article <4106F63C.B3D83B88@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:
>Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:
>> I think I can say that if the engineer's time is charged to the event
>> (especially the time spent _preparing_ presentations and so on), it
>> would cost us more than $1295 for a week.
>
>The $1295 cost seems on par with "commercial" courses. It seems very high when
>you compare it to DECUS functions (when DECUS existed).

Yes, it's noticeably more than the $600 - $800 I recall the last several
DECUSes costing (although I might be folding in the cost of pre-symposium
seminars).
>
>Also remember that when you get a lot of people who book rooms to your hotel,
>you can negotiate goodies that help reduce the overall price. (free rooms for
>organisers etc).

True, but the site can't really manage more than about 250 or 300 people.  If
you get comped one night per 50 room nights (not unusual), you can still only
get four - six free rooms.  And hotels aren't usually willing, these days, in
my experience, to trade room nights for function-room space; they prefer food
functions.

> > >Perhaps the organisation is done with a "commercial course" revenus 
>expectation with meals and goodies adjusted to eat up all those revenus. For 
>DECUS, it was the reverse. Set the affordabls price and then select meals and 
> goodies according to how much money you'd be getting. 

Really?  I would have thought there were some inelastic cost parameters -
convention center space, shuttle buses, etc - which would pretty much mandate
some irreversible minimum cost.  There were, certainly, economies of scale 
which let you feed 5k people at a lower per capita cost than .2k people, but
also 5k tech-savvy professionals was an attractive group to market to, and
you'd see marketing money thrown in.

>Now that the bootcamp would be in its 3rd year, Sue would have a reasonable
>idea of minimum number of attendees, thus greatly reducing the risk and
>perhaps allowing a reduced price. > 
>(for the first one, if he had only gotten 25 attendees, then yeah, each 
>attendee would have had to dish out megabucks in order for event to break even).

The hotel facilities and programs (hands-on workshops especially) are not
particularly suitable for more than 200 people - the attendance cap isn't an
an artificial restriction.  

-- Alan

-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

John Reagan wrote:
> 
> David J Dachtera wrote:
> > As the so-called head of the ersatz VMSUS, I would consider sponsoring
> > the bootcamp at the hotel near Nashua on a break-even basis if hp would
> > commit OpenVMS engineers and resources to the bootcamp, and forego
> > profits on the attendees in the form registration fees over and above
> > the cost of the meetings rooms, AV gear, etc. That might make it more
> > affordable, if only slightly.
> >
> > D.J.D.
> 
> I'm confused.  Are you implying that Sue runs the bootcamp for a profit?
>   I think we certainly loose money on the operation. 

That would be a first for VMS. They may be willing to sacrifice profit
potential through questionable host platform choices, but I've never
known them to "donate" anything OpenVMS to the faithful (don't start in
about OVMS-HOBBY - I had that argument with JW YEARS ago!).

> The bootcamp was
> never intended to make money for HP and OpenVMS.

Perhaps, but it's rather a stretch to assume that they'd offer something
repeatedly at loss. Perhaps you are counting as "loss" the time that the
OVMS folks are away from their porting / developing duties.

> HP already commits LOTS of resources and engineers to the bootcamp.  Ask
> anybody who attended.

That was never in question.

> Who people like less food or lower services in exchange for a cheaper rate?

You haven't been laid-off (more than once inside of three years) lately,
have you?

D.J.D.

Rob Brooks wrote:
> 
> John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:
> > David J Dachtera wrote:
> >> As the so-called head of the ersatz VMSUS, I would consider sponsoring
> >> the bootcamp at the hotel near Nashua on a break-even basis if hp would
> >> commit OpenVMS engineers and resources to the bootcamp, and forego
> >> profits on the attendees in the form registration fees over and above
> >> the cost of the meetings rooms, AV gear, etc. That might make it more
> >> affordable, if only slightly.
> >
> > I'm confused.  Are you implying that Sue runs the bootcamp for a profit?
> >   I think we certainly loose money on the operation.  The bootcamp was
> > never intended to make money for HP and OpenVMS.
> >
> > HP already commits LOTS of resources and engineers to the bootcamp.  Ask
> > anybody who attended.
> >
> > Who people like less food or lower services in exchange for a cheaper rate?
> 
> . . . And for those who are watching a budget, there is a Red Roof Inn
> located a half-mile from the Sheraton (where the bootcamp is held).
> Rooms can be had for about $45 a night.  I've spent many a night there --
> it's clean.

Please try to remember to mention that again come bootcamp time.

> Since Southwest Airlines flies into MHT (Manchester, NH -- about
> 30 minutes from Nashua for a slow driver), round trip prices from places
> like MDW can be had for about $155 with enough advance planning.

Well, not bad, I suppose. For a week then, that would come to circa.
$380US for five nights, without meals or travel to/from the airport(s).
That's more like a couple day's gross pay.

Now, what can be done about the registration fee? (Still circa.
1/2-month's take-home pay for a lot of us)...

D.J.D.

Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:
> True, but the site can't really manage more than about 250 or 300 people.

Fair enough. But you can still hold an affordable symposium with that amount
of people in a hotel. Remember that before the dismemberement of DECUS, there
were DECUS symposia all over the world.  And for most chapters, the symposium,
even with limited attendance (in that range) and reasonable pricing, would
generate sufficient funds to subsidize the chapter for the whole year.

It is possible however that the chosen hotel doesn't have affordable meals and
as a result, the minimum costs would be much higher (eg: $30 per meal instead
of $15). Meals are one of the biggest expenses for such a hotel function.

> Really?  I would have thought there were some inelastic cost parameters -
> convention center space, shuttle buses, etc

If you are holding it in a hotel, and use hotel catering, and book rooms in
the hotel, the conference rooms are not that expensive. When you can get
dinged however is of you need a room to setup hardware more than one day
before your event begins. (since it prevents hotel from renting that room for
other functions).

> some irreversible minimum cost.  There were, certainly, economies of scale
> which let you feed 5k people at a lower per capita cost than .2k people,

Actually, in hotels, the price difference isn't that great. We're not talking
about major convention centres here. Just a hotel in an almost rural setting.

> also 5k tech-savvy professionals was an attractive group to market to, and
> you'd see marketing money thrown in.

Yep, but then you lose some of the "quality" of the event because the sponsor
wants to get their money's worth and will want to market his wares during the conference.

In article <410705F8.4C711C32@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:
>Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:
>> True, but the site can't really manage more than about 250 or 300 people.
>
>Fair enough. But you can still hold an affordable symposium with that amount
>of people in a hotel. Remember that before the dismemberement of DECUS, there
>were DECUS symposia all over the world.  And for most chapters, the symposium,
>even with limited attendance (in that range) and reasonable pricing, would
>generate sufficient funds to subsidize the chapter for the whole year.
>
>It is possible however that the chosen hotel doesn't have affordable meals and
>as a result, the minimum costs would be much higher (eg: $30 per meal instead
>of $15). Meals are one of the biggest expenses for such a hotel function.

Indeed, and they do get scarily high pretty quick.
>
>> Really?  I would have thought there were some inelastic cost parameters -
>> convention center space, shuttle buses, etc
>
>If you are holding it in a hotel, and use hotel catering, and book rooms in
>the hotel, the conference rooms are not that expensive. When you can get
>dinged however is of you need a room to setup hardware more than one day
>before your event begins. (since it prevents hotel from renting that room for
>other functions).

Caught me; I was thinking of West Coast symposia, which tended to be huge.

>
>> some irreversible minimum cost.  There were, certainly, economies of scale
>> which let you feed 5k people at a lower per capita cost than .2k people,
>
>Actually, in hotels, the price difference isn't that great. We're not talking
>about major convention centres here. Just a hotel in an almost rural setting.

There are just limits to how cheap you're going to be able to make something 
at that site, and there aren't too many other sites where the engineers can 
come without getting travel authorization, etc.

>
>> also 5k tech-savvy professionals was an attractive group to market to, and
>> you'd see marketing money thrown in.
>
>Yep, but then you lose some of the "quality" of the event because the sponsor
>wants to get their money's worth and will want to market his wares during the conference.

Not necessarily; it didn't detract from my enjoyment of the Universal Studios
evening, for example, that there were a bunch of Oracle banners around during 
dinner.

-- Alan
-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

Folks just so you know.  ALL my projects are run as a non profit, but
I do need to cover my expenses.  I do try to provide value for the
money. I think that if you do look at week long technical events you
will notice that they are much higher than the bootcamp.  As for the
hotel cost I can not change that but my guess that at future bootcamps
only people that register early will be able to get rooms at the
Sheraton other people will have to go to another hotel.

The boot camp has never has as its goal to widen out, we will continue
to focus on VMS.  As it was we had a wait list of topics for the last
two events.  One of the reasons that we can keep the cost down is that
we have a very efficent (small) team and we all know what is going on
in the event.

At the boot camp in May we had 3 brand new VMS people (as in never
worked with VMS at all) and they really enjoyed the boot camp.

While everyone is welcome to the bootcamp and we really have a good
time together, if you need to justify this much maybe there is another
issue.

Warm Regards,
Sue



JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:<4105CC3A.7483372A@teksavvy.com>...
> David J Dachtera wrote:
> > Tell me how to justify to my family spending a half-month's take-home
> > pay on the bootcamp, and another week's take-home pay on travel and
> > accomodations...?
>  
> > See, with the national symposia, at least a limited number of us can
> > offset the registration fee by presenting.
> 
> Aren't there deals for those who are "registered developpers" to whatever
> program exists for developpers ?
> 
> The hotel was reasonably priced, BUT when you combine it with airfare and the
> bootcamp costs, the total is quite high. Not everyone has access to low cost
> airlines that go to that location.
> 
> I agree with you that the bootcamp should be runned as a not-for-profit so
> that its cost could be more reasonable and thus attract more independant developpers.
> 
> But this is the story of VMS: price it high because you are satisfied with a
> few rich customers as opposed to pricing it lower and attract more people.
> 
> It is also perhaps a question of Sue having limited resources to organise and
> run the event and needs to put a limit on the number of attendees, and a lower
> price would generate too much demand.
> 
> However, with the demise of what used to be DECUS, perhaps Sue's event could
> be widened some. On the other hand, having more direct contact with the
> engineers might bring more value than listening to user presentations.

Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:
> There are just limits to how cheap you're going to be able to make something
> at that site, and there aren't too many other sites where the engineers can
> come without getting travel authorization, etc.

Yes, I am aware that there are a limited number of hotels capable of holding
the event near enough the engineer's natural habitat. Nevertheless, the one
hotel, if you are filling it near capacity, should have sufficient flexibility
in its menus.

If you have a function of only 25 folks in a hotel capable of holding 500,
then you.'ll get their standard banquet menu offering. But if you fill the
hotel to capacity, you can generally customize meals to get something more
affordable. Some chefs/hotels may refuse to lower standards in order to
maintain their image.  The chef at a Ritz hotel may not accept to compromise
his menus to lower standards because that would reflect poorly on him and/or
the hotel.

It could also be that the one hotel near DEC facilities considers DEC/HP to be
a cash cow and doesn't even think of catering to cost-conscious customers.

Sue Skonetski wrote:
> Folks just so you know.  ALL my projects are run as a non profit, but
> I do need to cover my expenses.

Do your expenses involve a trip to the caribeean with a VMS engineer bearing
the same family names as you ? :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

> The boot camp has never has as its goal to widen out, we will continue
> to focus on VMS.

That is good. However, what you might consider/debate is whether you should
widen the breath of presenters by including non-engineers, which would make
this into what DECUS events used to be. (There are pros and cons to this).

> two events.  One of the reasons that we can keep the cost down is that
> we have a very efficent (small) team and we all know what is going on
> in the event.

But it still comes out fairly most costly than DECUS events. Are the
hotel/meals costs really so much higher ?

JF Mezei wrote:
> Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:
>> There are just limits to how cheap you're going to be able to make
>> something at that site, and there aren't too many other sites where
>> the engineers can come without getting travel authorization, etc.
>
> Yes, I am aware that there are a limited number of hotels capable of
> holding the event near enough the engineer's natural habitat.
> Nevertheless, the one hotel, if you are filling it near capacity,
> should have sufficient flexibility in its menus.
>
> If you have a function of only 25 folks in a hotel capable of holding
> 500, then you.'ll get their standard banquet menu offering. But if
> you fill the hotel to capacity, you can generally customize meals to
> get something more affordable. Some chefs/hotels may refuse to lower
> standards in order to maintain their image.  The chef at a Ritz hotel
> may not accept to compromise his menus to lower standards because
> that would reflect poorly on him and/or the hotel.
>
> It could also be that the one hotel near DEC facilities considers
> DEC/HP to be a cash cow and doesn't even think of catering to
> cost-conscious customers.

Time for you to consider building and operating a hotel in Nashua and run
the risk of over-providing for the town on all other days of the year other
than Boot Camp. ;-)

Don't think that moving Boot Camp to a nearby large city like Boston, where
there is more hotel & restaurant competition, would necessarily result in
lower out-of-pocket costs to attendees. Airfare *might* be a bit cheaper.

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:36:33 -0400, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>
wrote:

>It could also be that the one hotel near DEC facilities considers DEC/HP to be
>a cash cow and doesn't even think of catering to cost-conscious customers.

There are at least two other hotels in Nashua with similar size & facilities
capable of hosting a VMS bootcamp sized event. They are just a few miles up
Route 3 & I am sure that they offer competitive prices to the Sheraton or rather
that they keep the Sheraton prices reasonable as it is not a monopoly supplier.

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur

In article <RrydnbEJ4ssG7ZrcRVn-pw@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:
	...
>Don't think that moving Boot Camp to a nearby large city like Boston, where
>there is more hotel & restaurant competition, would necessarily result in
>lower out-of-pocket costs to attendees. Airfare *might* be a bit cheaper.

	"Moving to a nearby large city like Boston" would be unlikely to
	reduce hotel costs by much, I suspect.

	Here's my reasoning, based on recent training requirements in my
	own office, where we're being SUNburned.

	We purchased a "SUNPack" training package -- 8 man/courses to be
	spent over a 12-month interval.  Our management requires that we
	only take these courses at SUN's "Center of Excellence" training
	locations, of which there are three:  San Jose, CA; Broomfield, CO;
	Boston, MA.  We're in Central Pennsylvania, so Boston is clearly
	the closer, thus presumably lower airfare or even driving is possible.
	But the ACCOMODATIONS are SO MUCH CHEAPER in San Jose and Broomfield
	(a suburb of Denver, I'm told) than around the Boston location that
	we are further limited to the California and Colorado locations;
	savings there in Hotel/Food costs exceed by far the higher airfares.


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