Re: FMS Runtime Installation #5

This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00768ED785257008_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote on 05/20/2005 10:43:20 PM: > John Vottero wrote: > > > > <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote in message > > news:OF5A7D1D55.32520B91-ON85257007.00538088-85257007.00536481@metso.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way - Score: VMSINSTAL 1, PCSI 0. > > > > > > If this had been a PCSI kit, fixing it would have been doable, but a > > > narrower group > > > would have known how. > > > > > > > I'm no PCSI expert but, I don't think you could build a PCSI kit that tried > > to install a file that wasn't in the kit so maybe the score should be > > VMSINSTAL 0, PCSI 1? > Is that a fact? If it is, the score would be VMSINTALL 1 Kit Developer DNF PCSI Still Champion > I'd say more like: > > PCSI 1 > Kit Developer 0 > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Coming soon: > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page --=_alternative 00768ED785257008_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" <tt>David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote on 05/20/2005 10:43:20 PM: > John Vottero wrote: > > > > <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote in message > > news:OF5A7D1D55.32520B91-ON85257007.00538088-85257007.00536481@metso.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way - Score:  VMSINSTAL 1, PCSI 0. > > > > > > If this had been a PCSI kit, fixing it would have been doable, but a > > > narrower group > > > would have known how. > > > > > > > I'm no PCSI expert but, I don't think you could build a PCSI kit that tried > > to install a file that wasn't in the kit so maybe the score should be > > VMSINSTAL 0, PCSI 1? > </tt> <tt>Is that a fact?</tt> <tt>If it is, the score would be</tt> <tt>VMSINTALL      1</tt> <tt>Kit Developer  DNF</tt> <tt>PCSI           Still Champion </tt> <tt>> I'd say more like: > > PCSI      1 > Kit Developer    0 > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Coming soon: > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page </tt> --=_alternative 00768ED785257008_=--

Hi, > PCSI Still Champion What a load of bollocks! To this day, when it comes to PCSI, I still can't get a straight answer to the question WHY??? (Apart from a "Busy-Work" job-creation scheme for a bunch of wasters in VMS engineering, with nothing to do and all day to do it in.) I mean what the f*ck is it all about? No, go on; please trot out the list of customers who said "I demand you stop all work on other VMS functionality until we have something like PCSI!". And how much it cost to develop? And how much did it cost other layered products to change their install procedures just to feed the PCSI ego in an attempt justify its price tag? And, what's more, who uses it? How many "Non-DEC" software products are installed this way? Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, it was this very arrogance from VMS engineering that was hammering nails into the coffin. "But you stupid plebs don't understand how utterly repellent the 'procedural' nature of VMSINSTAL is!". Not since the "We MUST separate Form and Function!" crusade has the down-trodden user base witnessed such evangelical zeal from a bunch of navel gazers. So by all means please pin your colours to the PCSI/DECForms mast so that we can use it as a "Know them by their fruits" litmus test. Regards Richard Maher PS. I can remember a quote from a DECUS in Perth circa '86? "DECForms will 'supplant' FMS and TDMS.". Where do these wankers come from? PPS. I can also remember once doing a PRODUCT REMOVE on DECnet/OSI to try and free up some memory on my VAXstation. It was great trying to reboot after that :-( <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote in message news:OFCC1DD5F8.1D73405A-ON85257008.0075E4FD-85257008.00768EDD@metso.com... David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote on 05/20/2005 10:43:20 PM: > John Vottero wrote: > > > > <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote in message > > news:OF5A7D1D55.32520B91-ON85257007.00538088-85257007.00536481@metso.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way - Score: VMSINSTAL 1, PCSI 0. > > > > > > If this had been a PCSI kit, fixing it would have been doable, but a > > > narrower group > > > would have known how. > > > > > > > I'm no PCSI expert but, I don't think you could build a PCSI kit that tried > > to install a file that wasn't in the kit so maybe the score should be > > VMSINSTAL 0, PCSI 1? > Is that a fact? If it is, the score would be VMSINTALL 1 Kit Developer DNF PCSI Still Champion > I'd say more like: > > PCSI 1 > Kit Developer 0 > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Coming soon: > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page

"Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote in message news:d6tbdt$p69$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > Hi, > > > PCSI Still Champion > > What a load of bollocks! To this day, when it comes to PCSI, I still can't > get a straight answer to the question WHY??? (Apart from a "Busy-Work" > job-creation scheme for a bunch of wasters in VMS engineering, with nothing > to do and all day to do it in.) I mean what the f*ck is it all about? No, go > on; please trot out the list of customers who said "I demand you stop all > work on other VMS functionality until we have something like PCSI!". While I'm not sure PCSI has lived up to its potential, or the original vision - it certainly had demand both internal and external. I've been involved in creating and maintaining VMSINSTAL kits as well as PCSI kits. Frankly, while PCSI kits are easier to create - that isn't the reason for them. It provides a common and uniform way of installing products, upgrading products and patching products in a coherent way. In fact, in a way that things can be removed. You can create compressed kits in a standard way as well. The PCSI reference kit model allows the VMS installation CD to be bootable *and* a PCSI kit without duplicating files. VMINSTAL was just to ad-hoc. Today, one of the first things I ask when someone sends me a bug report is a PRODUCT SHOW HISTORY

Richard Maher wrote: > What a load of bollocks! To this day, when it comes to PCSI, I still can't > get a straight answer to the question WHY??? (Apart from a "Busy-Work" I tend to agree. With you. The benefit of PCSI, the product database to see what version of what has been installed could very easily have been implemented within VMSinstal to provide the same functionality.

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:42923BCA.9A15081C@teksavvy.com... > Richard Maher wrote: > > What a load of bollocks! To this day, when it comes to PCSI, I still can't > > get a straight answer to the question WHY??? (Apart from a "Busy-Work" > > I tend to agree. With you. > > The benefit of PCSI, the product database to see what version of what > has been installed could very easily have been implemented within > VMSinstal to provide the same functionality. VMSINSTAL was a old, and crude tool. The variety of hacks done by people creating kits boggles the mind. Nor did it stand a chance at being able to deal with dependencies, product removals, or patch rollbacks.

Hi, > VMSINSTAL was a old, and crude tool. Yeah, not as modern and refined as PCSI eh? I went to install COBOL on a box I've got and to my horror I found that it is now PCSI based. "No big deal" I thought; just get on and do it. So I proceeded to install it. (Does anyone ever answer "NO" to "Would you like to take the defaults?") Anyway, while running the IVP it reported all these link errors "Can't find DCOB$blah". So it looks like the RTL didn't come down so I decided to look at the documentation to see why. Now I don't know about you, but I was astonished to find directions such as these: - 1) There are three kits here. If you don't already have an RTL, you must install that first. 2) If you have VMS version FOO then install RTL version BAR else version BLAH Instead, wouldn't it be nice (bloody obvious!) to see : - * This version of COBOL requires RTL version blah. Would you like to install/replace it? [YES] And by some unknown miracle of programming wizardry, the kit would work out what version of VMS was available and act accordingly? Ah but that would be *PROCEDURAL* wouldn't it? Silly me :-( So, which of the following is correct : - a) Don Braffit presides over a bunch of lazy-arse kit-builders. (No shortage of them around.) b) PCSI is a pile o' crap, ham-strung from inception by the petty prejudices of self-indulgent bigots. c) Both a) and b) Regards Richard Maher "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> wrote in message news:eetke.5909$US2.5420@news.cpqcorp.net... > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message > news:42923BCA.9A15081C@teksavvy.com... > > Richard Maher wrote: > > > What a load of bollocks! To this day, when it comes to PCSI, I still > can't > > > get a straight answer to the question WHY??? (Apart from a "Busy-Work" > > > > I tend to agree. With you. > > > > The benefit of PCSI, the product database to see what version of what > > has been installed could very easily have been implemented within > > VMSinstal to provide the same functionality. > > VMSINSTAL was a old, and crude tool. The variety of hacks done by > people creating kits boggles the mind. Nor did it stand a chance at > being able to deal with dependencies, product removals, or patch > rollbacks. > > >

On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:32:24 +0000 (UTC), Richard Maher <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > >> VMSINSTAL was a old, and crude tool. > > Yeah, not as modern and refined as PCSI eh? > > I went to install COBOL on a box I've got and to my horror I found that > it > is now PCSI based. "No big deal" I thought; just get on and do it. So I > proceeded to install it. (Does anyone ever answer "NO" to "Would you > like to > take the defaults?") Anyway, while running the IVP it reported all these > link errors "Can't find DCOB$blah". So it looks like the RTL didn't come > down so I decided to look at the documentation to see why. Now I don't > know > about you, but I was astonished to find directions such as these: - > > 1) There are three kits here. If you don't already have an RTL, you must > install that first. > > 2) If you have VMS version FOO then install RTL version BAR else version > BLAH > > Instead, wouldn't it be nice (bloody obvious!) to see : - > > * This version of COBOL requires RTL version blah. Would you like to > install/replace it? [YES] > > And by some unknown miracle of programming wizardry, the kit would work > out > what version of VMS was available and act accordingly? Ah but that would > be > *PROCEDURAL* wouldn't it? Silly me :-( > > So, which of the following is correct : - > > a) Don Braffit presides over a bunch of lazy-arse kit-builders. (No > shortage > of them around.) > > b) PCSI is a pile o' crap, ham-strung from inception by the petty > prejudices > of self-indulgent bigots. > > c) Both a) and b) > > Regards Richard Maher PL/I installs with VMSINSTAL, and you get the added advantage of not having to use Cobol.

In article <d71up7$edl$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes: > 1) There are three kits here. If you don't already have an RTL, you must > install that first. There is a way to express that in PCSI. If the kit did not do so, the kit (not PCSI) is in error. I can believe that they XYZ group failed to test on a machine that never has had XYZ installed. > 2) If you have VMS version FOO then install RTL version BAR else version > BLAH There is a way to express that in PCSI. If the kit did not do so, the kit (not PCSI) is in error. I can believe that they XYZ group failed to test on a machine that and not have particular versions of XYZrtl installed. > Instead, wouldn't it be nice (bloody obvious!) to see : - > > * This version of COBOL requires RTL version blah. Would you like to > install/replace it? [YES] > > And by some unknown miracle of programming wizardry, the kit would work out > what version of VMS was available and act accordingly? Ah but that would be > *PROCEDURAL* wouldn't it? Silly me :-( No, it would not be procedural, and that capability is provided by PCSI. > So, which of the following is correct : - > > a) Don Braffit presides over a bunch of lazy-arse kit-builders. (No shortage > of them around.) a1. Don Braffit has not been given any staff who know anything more about PCSI than you do.

Richard Maher wrote: > Hi, > > >>VMSINSTAL was a old, and crude tool. > > > Yeah, not as modern and refined as PCSI eh? > > I went to install COBOL on a box I've got and to my horror I found that it > is now PCSI based. "No big deal" I thought; just get on and do it. So I > proceeded to install it. (Does anyone ever answer "NO" to "Would you like to > take the defaults?") Anyway, while running the IVP it reported all these > link errors "Can't find DCOB$blah". So it looks like the RTL didn't come > down so I decided to look at the documentation to see why. Now I don't know > about you, but I was astonished to find directions such as these: - Ah! When all else fails, then you finally read the directions? That bit of sarcasm out of the way, I don't like PCSI, but I have no better solution. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. Fax: 724-529-0596 DFE Ultralights, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Richard Maher wrote: > b) PCSI is a pile o' crap, ham-strung from inception by the petty prejudices > of self-indulgent bigots. I don't like PCSI. But in fairness, it does have a few advantages here and there over VMSinstal. But it is really not ready for prime time and lacks too much functionality. They really should have implemented it in DCL so things run in the same process. The fact that must of the logic has to execute in a subprocess where output is not garantyeed to be seen by the user is a terrible idea. Where money should have been spent is in getting BACKUP to compress data when writing to savesets and giving BACKUP a much greater ability to handle savesets with varous RMS attributes automatically (so that when transfered by FTP, it would work, instead of needing to fix the RMS attributes, or encapsulate it into another format). Backup could then ahve continued to be used for packaging of kits. And users are already familiar with backsup and can easily inspect a kit, insert/modify kitinstal/replace and re-install. VMSinstall could have been cleaned up, streamlined, its documentation released and new functions added to keep track of what has been installed and when. Soemwhere, the priorities go really wrong at VMS. Then again, if Palm,er was out to kill VMS, setting the wrong priorities was a good way to get there.

FredK wrote: > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message > news:42923BCA.9A15081C@teksavvy.com... > > Richard Maher wrote: > > > What a load of bollocks! To this day, when it comes to PCSI, I still > can't > > > get a straight answer to the question WHY??? (Apart from a "Busy-Work" > > > > I tend to agree. With you. > > > > The benefit of PCSI, the product database to see what version of what > > has been installed could very easily have been implemented within > > VMSinstal to provide the same functionality. > > VMSINSTAL was a old, and crude tool. Dunno 'bout that. D'ya ever try to read it? (it's been passed through DCLdiet, or at least appears that it has. > The variety of hacks done by > people creating kits boggles the mind. Maybe more appropriate to say that the freedom it affords enables a great deal of creativity. Just look at the VMS installs for VAX ... > Nor did it stand a chance at > being able to deal with dependencies, product removals, or patch > rollbacks. Dunno 'bout that, though it would have been a major challenge, certainly. Then again, being DCL, it would likely have used RMS indexed files for its database - certainly easier to analyze, diagnose and recover than the existing PCSI stuff. ....and as others have posted, some /RECOVER_DATABASE, /REBUILD_DATABASE, /ANALYZE_DATABASE, /BACKUP_DATABASE, etc. qualifiers would help immensely. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page

In article <429518FF.E9DF92AC@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > FredK wrote: >> VMSINSTAL was a old, and crude tool. > > Dunno 'bout that. D'ya ever try to read it? (it's been passed through > DCLdiet, or at least appears that it has. That is another "value added" feature of the source listings kit.

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