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RE: Seeking Data Archiving (BACKUP) Suggestions (was: Re: VAX/VMS site) site)site)

-----Original Message-----
From: Hoff Hoffman [mailto:hoff-remove-this@hp.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:06 AM
To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
Subject: Re: Seeking Data Archiving (BACKUP) Suggestions (was: Re:
VAX/VMS site) site)site)

contracer11@gmail.com wrote:

> - 6 VAX 4000-100 running OpenVMS V5.5-2H4.

   There are costs to doing nothing and to not upgrading, and they=20
increase (subtly) over time.  <http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/>

  The direct savings of not upgrading can and do eventually become=20
costs, typically first as indirect and usually unperceived costs and=20
then as increasingly direct and visible costs.

   I'd probably also look at the replacement of all six VAX 4000 model=20
100 boxes with a rather smaller number of Alpha or Integrity servers,=20
too, and with newer hardware.  Particularly if the source code was=20
around.  Way faster, and with far bigger and faster storage.  Failing=20
that (if the source code is unavailable) then VAX emulation is a=20
potential option.
---------------------------------------------

You might find the costs to migrate everything from the 4000/100 models
to replacement CHARON 4000/108 emulated systems cost effect especially
when you consider that the old 4000/100 boxes were only 20VUP's and the
emulator on even my three+ year old host cranks out 50+ VUP's so you
could consolidate two old boxes to one and since you are staying in the
same identical license class, you could save even more money.

Just a thought...

Barry Treahy, Jr                    =20
Vice President/CIO
Midwest Microwave, Inc.
Emerson Network Power Connectivity Solutions
E-mail: Barry.Treahy@EmersonNetworkPower.com
Phone: 480/314-1320
Cell:     480/216-9568
Fax:     480/661-7028
=20
                       ... but it's a DRY HEAT!
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8/16/2006 6:42:52 PM
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Barry.Treahy@EmersonNetworkPower.com wrote:
> You might find the costs to migrate everything from the 4000/100 models
> to replacement CHARON 4000/108 emulated systems cost effect especially

If he starts to evaluate migration costs, he might find it cheaper to
migrate to Linux or Windows.

Suggesting a migration where his systems are working fine is not a good
solution. He can upgrade those VAX systems to the last fully featured
version of VAX-VMS if he wants. hardware is not the problem here.

He has systems at 5.5 and needs to find a solution to ease the backups.

CMU-IP is availbale at that version and does have some FTP utilities
(does it have NFS ?). And I think that Mad Goat's FTP server is also
available (or was available) for CMUIP. It is more "featured" than the
CMU FTP server.
0
8/16/2006 7:25:13 PM
JF Mezei wrote:
> Barry.Treahy@EmersonNetworkPower.com wrote:
>> You might find the costs to migrate everything from the 4000/100 models
>> to replacement CHARON 4000/108 emulated systems cost effect especially
> 
> If he starts to evaluate migration costs, he might find it cheaper to
> migrate to Linux or Windows.

   Yes, an investigation might well find it is cheaper to migrate to 
Linux, Windows, OS X Tiger, or some other platform.  Or it might not, 
and might well find that migrating to a similar platform (and/or a newer 
version) is the cheapest approach available.  Facts not in evidence.

   And as should be quite obvious to anyone that has been involved in 
platform ports of non-trivial applications, moving forward with OpenVMS 
and even across architectures is typically far less disruptive than is 
moving across platforms.  And I and others have obviously found that 
moving forward can be an entirely viable solution to various problems. 
Which is the reason I suggest it.  (I know folks that have seen savings 
based on nothing more than power and cooling reductions, for instance.)

   JF, (assuming several details also not in evidence) your own local 
OpenVMS environment clearly hasn't migrated, so there are clearly 
reasons that you know of not to; to remain on and to remain using OpenVMS.



0
8/16/2006 9:06:00 PM
JF Mezei wrote:
> Barry.Treahy@EmersonNetworkPower.com wrote:
>> You might find the costs to migrate everything from the 4000/100 models
>> to replacement CHARON 4000/108 emulated systems cost effect especially
> 
> If he starts to evaluate migration costs, he might find it cheaper to
> migrate to Linux or Windows.

It's unfortunate that the word 'migrate' was used.  Upgrading to CHARON 
means still running VMS.  Plenty of VMS applications don't run on Linux 
and windoz.

> Suggesting a migration where his systems are working fine is not a good
> solution. He can upgrade those VAX systems to the last fully featured
> version of VAX-VMS if he wants. hardware is not the problem here.

Well, using DAT tape hardware is a problem.  DLT would be a solution.

> He has systems at 5.5 and needs to find a solution to ease the backups.
> 
> CMU-IP is availbale at that version and does have some FTP utilities
> (does it have NFS ?). And I think that Mad Goat's FTP server is also
> available (or was available) for CMUIP. It is more "featured" than the
> CMU FTP server.


-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486
0
davef3 (3716)
8/17/2006 7:21:48 AM
Dave Froble wrote:
> It's unfortunate that the word 'migrate' was used.  Upgrading to CHARON
> means still running VMS.  Plenty of VMS applications don't run on Linux
> and windoz.

From a management point of view, it is still a project that requires
RFP, budgeting ,approval etc etc. To PHBs, it looks like a migration.

If those VAXes are still there and at 5.5, it is likely that management
do not wish to spend any money to upgrade those machines and that the
next spending for those application will involve porting to a modern
platform that is alive and well. (aka Linux or Windows).

Pushing for such an "upgrade" to Charon VAX may result in the loss of a
VMS shop faster than would have otherwise happened.

Surely it is cheaper to find a backup solution for this chap than to
suggest he change all his hardware and upgrade his software at what may
be great costs to him. How much would HP charge for software upgrades
from VMS 5.5 to 7.3 for multiple machines ?
0
8/17/2006 7:53:34 AM
It all depends on what the site is set up with in terms of maintenance,
spares, ongoing costs etc etc etc.  Upgrading to the latest version of
OpenVMS VAX may have no cost if the company already has right to use
new versions in place on their contracts.  alternatively, it may be
that Hoff's suggestion of porting to Integrity is cheaper both in
revenue costs and capital expenditure.

Putting a DLT on is likely to be problematical since there are
suprisingly few DLTs around these days.

Steve

JF Mezei wrote:
> Dave Froble wrote:
> > It's unfortunate that the word 'migrate' was used.  Upgrading to CHARON
> > means still running VMS.  Plenty of VMS applications don't run on Linux
> > and windoz.
>
> From a management point of view, it is still a project that requires
> RFP, budgeting ,approval etc etc. To PHBs, it looks like a migration.
>
> If those VAXes are still there and at 5.5, it is likely that management
> do not wish to spend any money to upgrade those machines and that the
> next spending for those application will involve porting to a modern
> platform that is alive and well. (aka Linux or Windows).
>
> Pushing for such an "upgrade" to Charon VAX may result in the loss of a
> VMS shop faster than would have otherwise happened.
>
> Surely it is cheaper to find a backup solution for this chap than to
> suggest he change all his hardware and upgrade his software at what may
> be great costs to him. How much would HP charge for software upgrades
> from VMS 5.5 to 7.3 for multiple machines ?

0
etmsreec (419)
8/17/2006 12:31:06 PM
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