I am attempting to script a telnet session via vb.net to a VMS
system.  I am not having much luck with the telnet connection.  I have
an import of a c# class that looks like it will work for scripting the
session once I can establish the connection. Currently I receive a
message that says the VMS host has rejected my request.  I have also
noticed that when telnetting from windows the port changes each time,
and is not static on 23.  The class in C# requires a port and no
matter what I specify I can't seem to get a connection.

I will be the first to admit that I don't know that much about network
programming, and I have only had about a year of limited experience
with the VAX and VMS.

I don't expect anyone to solve my problem but some explanations, or
suggestions would be welcomed.

In article <39517edb-6dcd-4874-9a70-c408cd23d43a@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Another Steve <reedsr@gmail.com> writes:
>I am attempting to script a telnet session via vb.net to a VMS
>system.  I am not having much luck with the telnet connection.  I have
>an import of a c# class that looks like it will work for scripting the
>session once I can establish the connection. Currently I receive a
>message that says the VMS host has rejected my request.  I have also
>noticed that when telnetting from windows the port changes each time,
>and is not static on 23.  The class in C# requires a port and no
>matter what I specify I can't seem to get a connection.

The TELNET port on the VMS machine would not change.  It will remain 23.
What you are likely seeing is the neumber of the port number that was 
created on the Weendoze side.


>I will be the first to admit that I don't know that much about network
>programming, and I have only had about a year of limited experience
>with the VAX and VMS.

Can't be all that difficult.  Initiate the TELNET and look for the prompt
for the username which is, strangely, Username:.  Then supply the username
and look for the password prompt.  This is the difficult part as the prompt
is Password:.  Supply the password and you are in.  


>I don't expect anyone to solve my problem but some explanations, or
>suggestions would be welcomed.

If this connection is being made over the internet, I would suggest you use
a secure protocol like ssh for connection.  TELNET will be sending the VMS
authentication information in plain text over the internet.  Not sage nor
secure.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

"Another Steve" <reedsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:39517edb-6dcd-4874-9a70-c408cd23d43a@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> I am attempting to script a telnet session via vb.net to a VMS
> system.  I am not having much luck with the telnet connection.  I have
> an import of a c# class that looks like it will work for scripting the
> session once I can establish the connection. Currently I receive a
> message that says the VMS host has rejected my request.  I have also
> noticed that when telnetting from windows the port changes each time,
> and is not static on 23.  The class in C# requires a port and no
> matter what I specify I can't seem to get a connection.
>
> I will be the first to admit that I don't know that much about network
> programming, and I have only had about a year of limited experience
> with the VAX and VMS.
>
> I don't expect anyone to solve my problem but some explanations, or
> suggestions would be welcomed.
>

What VAXman said.

You  "receive a message that says the VMS host has rejected my request". VMS
doesn't say things quite like that. Sooner or later you will need to know
*exactly* what VMS is saying back to you (because that's where the answer
is). Does your C# class offer easy access to that functionality? If not, you
might want to look at a packet sniffer, maybe something like wireshark,
which is likely complete overkill, but would at least let you see *exactly*
what the PC is sending to the VMS box, and what the VMS box says in
response.

Plus, why C# anyway? Unless there are particular reasons for C#, e.g. you
are trying to tie tightly in with a C# app, there are free non-MS tools that
may well be much better options for a basic scripted telnet connection...
certainly they'll be more portable, they'll quite possibly not need a huge
C# IDE, and they'll quite possibly work at a "proof of concept" level with
three or four lines of someone else's "code", then expand as required for
your particular needs.

Scripting languages are like editors, everyone has their own favourite, so
I'm not going to suggest a particular one. However, I will point out that
some of them are also available on VMS and you just might want to factor
that into this picture.

Good luck
John

Another Steve wrote:
> I am attempting to script a telnet session via vb.net to a VMS
> system.  I am not having much luck with the telnet connection.  I have
> an import of a c# class that looks like it will work for scripting the
> session once I can establish the connection. Currently I receive a
> message that says the VMS host has rejected my request.  I have also
> noticed that when telnetting from windows the port changes each time,
> and is not static on 23.  The class in C# requires a port and no
> matter what I specify I can't seem to get a connection.
> 
> I will be the first to admit that I don't know that much about network
> programming, and I have only had about a year of limited experience
> with the VAX and VMS.
> 
> I don't expect anyone to solve my problem but some explanations, or
> suggestions would be welcomed.
> 

An EXACT copy of the commands you used and the error messages you 
received would be a big help in trying to troubleshoot your problem!

Another Steve wrote:
> I am attempting to script a telnet session via vb.net to a VMS
> system.  I am not having much luck with the telnet connection.  I have
> an import of a c# class that looks like it will work for scripting the
> session once I can establish the connection. Currently I receive a
> message that says the VMS host has rejected my request.  I have also
> noticed that when telnetting from windows the port changes each time,
> and is not static on 23.  The class in C# requires a port and no
> matter what I specify I can't seem to get a connection.

What classes are you using ? (and maybe a calling code snippet)

What error message do you get ? (exact copy/paste please)

Arne

Another Steve wrote:
> 
> I am attempting to script a telnet session via vb.net to a VMS
> system.

My trick knee tells me that is *NOT* WHAT you're trying to do, that's
HOW you're trying to do it.

What are you REALLY trying to do?

....and why are you using Telnet instead of REXEC, RSHELL or something
more appropriate to the task?

David J Dachtera
(fomerly dba) DJE Systems

On Mar 25, 8:12 pm, David J Dachtera <djesys...@spam.comcast.net>
wrote:
> Another Steve wrote:
>
> > I am attempting to script a telnet session via vb.net to a VMS
> > system.
>
> My trick knee tells me that is *NOT* WHAT you're trying to do, that's
> HOW you're trying to do it.
>
> What are you REALLY trying to do?
>
> ...and why are you using Telnet instead of REXEC, RSHELL or something
> more appropriate to the task?
>
> David J Dachtera
> (fomerly dba) DJE Systems

the connection itself is now working, but I am timing out while
waiting for the "Username: " prompt.  all I am receiving back from the
telnet connection is "??=18"

Any ideas on progressing

In the past I was able to successfully script a session using Expect
on linux but due to some constraints on some other features I cannot
continue to use linux for our X-windows needs.

This is being run on a closed network, and will essentially amount to
a front end control for Cygwin.  I am open to other suggestions to
automate the process of launching windows from a remote VMS system but
I am trying to come up with something so we can get away from Exceed.

On Mar 26, 2:50 pm, Another Steve <ree...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the connection itself is now working, but I am timing out while
> waiting for the "Username: " prompt.  all I am receiving back from the
> telnet connection is "?? "

Find the RFC for the TELNET protocol.  Immediately after the
connection is established, there is a dialog that goes on between the
client and server to determine parameters for the session.  The
characters you received were the server telling you what it will and
won't do and it's waiting for you to tell it the same.

In article <01f442d3-144b-415c-a9d2-d379152fb442@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, pfaut <tfpfau@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 26, 2:50 pm, Another Steve <ree...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> the connection itself is now working, but I am timing out while
>> waiting for the "Username: " prompt.  all I am receiving back from the
>> telnet connection is "?? "
>
>Find the RFC for the TELNET protocol.  Immediately after the
>connection is established, there is a dialog that goes on between the
>client and server to determine parameters for the session.  The
>characters you received were the server telling you what it will and
>won't do and it's waiting for you to tell it the same.

That's pretty low-level handshaking to just establish and automate a TELNET
login to VMS.

We still haven't heard as to WHY someone would want to automate such a login
to VMS.  

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

On Mar 26, 3:20 pm, pfaut <tfp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 26, 2:50 pm, Another Steve <ree...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > the connection itself is now working, but I am timing out while
> > waiting for the "Username: " prompt.  all I am receiving back from the
> > telnet connection is "?? "
>
> Find the RFC for the TELNET protocol.  Immediately after the
> connection is established, there is a dialog that goes on between the
> client and server to determine parameters for the session.  The
> characters you received were the server telling you what it will and
> won't do and it's waiting for you to tell it the same.

Thanks,  got that resolved

I am happy with what I have right now, thanks for the help

On Mar 26, 4:12 pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <01f442d3-144b-415c-a9d2-d379152fb...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, pfaut <tfp...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >On Mar 26, 2:50 pm, Another Steve <ree...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> the connection itself is now working, but I am timing out while
> >> waiting for the "Username: " prompt.  all I am receiving back from the
> >> telnet connection is "?? "
>
> >Find the RFC for the TELNET protocol.  Immediately after the
> >connection is established, there is a dialog that goes on between the
> >client and server to determine parameters for the session.  The
> >characters you received were the server telling you what it will and
> >won't do and it's waiting for you to tell it the same.
>
> That's pretty low-level handshaking to just establish and automate a TELNET
> login to VMS.
>
> We still haven't heard as to WHY someone would want to automate such a login
> to VMS.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
>
>   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
>
> http://tmesis.com/drat.html

I want to create a front end for cygwin, the user pushes a button and
the commands are sent via telnet to create the window on the local  x
windows terminal

Another Steve wrote:

> I want to create a front end for cygwin, the user pushes a button and
> the commands are sent via telnet to create the window on the local  x
> windows terminal

This would have been very trivial to do with Kermit. It has scripting
and support for telnet

In article <fdf75e16-73b3-404b-bc73-c1c9763165bd@d62g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Another Steve <reedsr@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 26, 4:12 pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <01f442d3-144b-415c-a9d2-d379152fb...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, pfaut <tfp...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >On Mar 26, 2:50 pm, Another Steve <ree...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> the connection itself is now working, but I am timing out while
>> >> waiting for the "Username: " prompt.  all I am receiving back from the
>> >> telnet connection is "?? "
>>
>> >Find the RFC for the TELNET protocol.  Immediately after the
>> >connection is established, there is a dialog that goes on between the
>> >client and server to determine parameters for the session.  The
>> >characters you received were the server telling you what it will and
>> >won't do and it's waiting for you to tell it the same.
>>
>> That's pretty low-level handshaking to just establish and automate a TELNET
>> login to VMS.
>>
>> We still haven't heard as to WHY someone would want to automate such a login
>> to VMS.
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
>>
>>   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
>>
>> http://tmesis.com/drat.html
>
>I want to create a front end for cygwin, the user pushes a button and
>the commands are sent via telnet to create the window on the local  x
>windows terminal

Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?  I can't believe you'd be so lax
with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
exploit.

I hope this isn't used at any company which has any interests in my well-
being!

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

Another Steve wrote:
> 
> I want to create a front end for cygwin, the user pushes a button and
> the commands are sent via telnet to create the window on the local  x
> windows terminal
> 

But for that the RSH (or encrypted SSH) protocol is much more 
appropriate: it can be setup per user to execute without password exchange.

-- 

  Joseph Huber   - http://www.huber-joseph.de

> > Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?  I can't believe you'd be so lax
> > with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
> > coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could
> > exploit.

I never said this would be done, the application allows username and
password prompting

In article <47eae1af$0$5628$607ed4bc@cv.net>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?  I can't believe you'd be so lax
> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
> exploit.
> 

   Cygwin is a eunichs environment for Windoze.  I use its X server
   and when I'm forced to do programming on (not for) a Windows box
   I find gnu grep much more usefull that findstr, ...

   But if I found someone in my organization doing what the OP is
   doing, I'd haul him in front of the secutiry group.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?

Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows.

 >                                        I can't believe you'd be so lax
> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
> exploit.

The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es.

It is the risk of viruses that are for practical purposes
a Windows only thing.

Arne

John Wallace wrote:
> Plus, why C# anyway? Unless there are particular reasons for C#, e.g. you
> are trying to tie tightly in with a C# app,  there are free non-MS tools that
> may well be much better options for a basic scripted telnet connection...
> certainly they'll be more portable, they'll quite possibly not need a huge
> C# IDE,

C# is a nice language.

The market of systems capable of running C# apps is big enough for
some people (100 million PC's today, 500 million PC's in 5 year).

And C# does not require a huge IDE. If someone prefer notepad, then
that works fine. Most people would prefer an IDE though considering
that 2-3 free ones are available.

Arne

On Mar 27, 6:10 pm, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> The market of systems capable of running C# apps is big enough for
> some people (100 million PC's today, 500 million PC's in 5 year).

Not if current Vista sales are any indication (but I digress...)

On Mar 25, 4:39 pm, Another Steve <ree...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am attempting to script a telnet session via vb.net to a VMS
> system.  I am not having much luck with the telnet connection.  I have
> an import of a c# class that looks like it will work for scripting the
> session once I can establish the connection. Currently I receive a
> message that says the VMS host has rejected my request.  I have also
> noticed that when telnetting from windows the port changes each time,
> and is not static on 23.  The class in C# requires a port and no
> matter what I specify I can't seem to get a connection.
>
> I will be the first to admit that I don't know that much about network
> programming, and I have only had about a year of limited experience
> with the VAX and VMS.
>
> I don't expect anyone to solve my problem but some explanations, or
> suggestions would be welcomed.

Steve,

I would actually suggest checking some things and possibly a totally
different tack.

The first question is: What version of OpenVMS and which TCP/IP stack
are you running?

If they are of fairly recent vintage, check for the support of XDMCP
(X-Windows Display Manager Control Protocol). XDMCP will provide
precisely the functionality sought, without any custom programming.

In a recent client situation, I was forced to work out the details of
a procedure similar to what you describe. The reason was that the
particular system is running very old versions of OpenVMS and TCP/IP,
before the XDMCP was supported. Working with XDMCP is far less work.

You will of course, need to make sure that any intervening firewalls
are configured to appropriately pass XDMCP.

I hope that the above is helpful.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com

>C# is a nice language.

I thougth it was just a black key.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

Bob Gezelter wrote:

> If they are of fairly recent vintage, check for the support of XDMCP
> (X-Windows Display Manager Control Protocol). XDMCP will provide
> precisely the functionality sought, without any custom programming.


5.3 of TCPIP Services does not support the MIT-COOKIE authentication, so
you risk wasting a lot of time trying to debug why it doesn't work due
to missing features on VMS.

One way to start a X session is to use RSH onn the remote node that runs
 a procedure that defines decw$display (set disp/create) and then runs
decw$session or create/terminal/detached ...

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:44:29 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:

>> C# is a nice language.
>
> I thougth it was just a black key.
>
D-flat might be a more descriptive name


-- 
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com

In article <47ec1994$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?
>
>Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows.
>
> >                                        I can't believe you'd be so lax
>> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
>> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
>> exploit.
>
>The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es.
>
Well I suppose you could argue that there are so many unpatched badly mismanaged
Windows systems out there that you have to be unlucky for someone to pick on
your machine to hack into. 

>It is the risk of viruses that are for practical purposes
>a Windows only thing.

Many viruses open backdoors for hackers to later exploit.

David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University

>
>Arne

In article <fsirs1$nbf$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>In article <47ec1994$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?
>>
>>Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows.
>>
>> >                                        I can't believe you'd be so lax
>>> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
>>> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
>>> exploit.
>>
>>The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es.
>>
>Well I suppose you could argue that there are so many unpatched badly mismanaged
>Windows systems out there that you have to be unlucky for someone to pick on
>your machine to hack into. 
>
>>It is the risk of viruses that are for practical purposes
>>a Windows only thing.
>
>Many viruses open backdoors for hackers to later exploit.

Most of the attempts on my systems were traced back to PeeCees being run as
remote controlled rogues unbeknownst to the hapless owners of said inferior
technology.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

In article <47ec3f6d$0$25048$607ed4bc@cv.net>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>C# is a nice language.
> 
> I thougth it was just a black key.
> 

   I can find C# on my flute, but no black keys.

Tom Linden wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:44:29 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:
> 
> > > C# is a nice language.
> > 
> > I thougth it was just a black key.
> > 
> D-flat might be a more descriptive name

Ah but that was what's-his-name in DDJ, Oh yes Al Stevens, invention.
He was a C, C++ programmer and a Jazz pianist IIRC.

BTW Is DDJ still going in the US? I've a collection going back to the
early 80's but had gotten the impression it had died about a year(?)
ago. It simply stopped appearing on the Munich bookshop's shelf and the
lady behind the counter said it had ceased publication.

Cheers - Dave.

david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <47ec1994$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?
>> Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows.
>>
>>>                                        I can't believe you'd be so lax
>>> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
>>> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
>>> exploit.
>> The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es.
>>
> Well I suppose you could argue that there are so many unpatched badly mismanaged
> Windows systems out there that you have to be unlucky for someone to pick on
> your machine to hack into. 

Most desktop Windows systems are not running a
telnet/FTP/SSH/HTTP/whatever server.

As a result they are for all practical purposes never hacked.

They get frequently virus'es, occasionally trojan horses and
sometimes worms.

It is estimate that 10-50 million PC'es are infected with malware.

But I can not even remember having heard about a desktop Windows
box being hacked. It probably has happened though.

Arne

pfaut wrote:
> On Mar 27, 6:10 pm, Arne Vajh�j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> The market of systems capable of running C# apps is big enough for
>> some people (100 million PC's today, 500 million PC's in 5 year).
> 
> Not if current Vista sales are any indication (but I digress...)

????

They sold 100 million copies in 2007.

5 x 100 million are actually 500 million.

So if current Vista sales are an indication it will be so.

Arne

In article <480169ae$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> 
> But I can not even remember having heard about a desktop Windows
> box being hacked. It probably has happened though.

   What stone have you been sleeping under for the last 20 years?

In article <480169ae$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>> In article <47ec1994$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?
>>> Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows.
>>>
>>>>                                        I can't believe you'd be so lax
>>>> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
>>>> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
>>>> exploit.
>>> The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es.
>>>
>> Well I suppose you could argue that there are so many unpatched badly mismanaged
>> Windows systems out there that you have to be unlucky for someone to pick on
>> your machine to hack into. 
>
>Most desktop Windows systems are not running a
>telnet/FTP/SSH/HTTP/whatever server.
>
>As a result they are for all practical purposes never hacked.
>
Lots of malware opens up backdoor ports and some of those run public-domain
ftp server software on those ports.

Also wormable vulnerabilities (ie those where no user intervention is 
necessary and the patch states that it may allow remote code execution 
are just as vulnerable to hackers as they are to having a worm written 
for them).


David webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University


David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University


>They get frequently virus'es, occasionally trojan horses and
>sometimes worms.
>
>It is estimate that 10-50 million PC'es are infected with malware.
>
>But I can not even remember having heard about a desktop Windows
>box being hacked. It probably has happened though.
>
>Arne

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <480169ae$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> But I can not even remember having heard about a desktop Windows
>> box being hacked. It probably has happened though.
> 
>    What stone have you been sleeping under for the last 20 years?

Please post a link to a story about a desktop windows that has been
hacked (not infected by virus, worms, trojans etc.).

Hacking is coupled with server style apps, which desktop Windows
systems does not run.

Arne

david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <480169ae$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>>> In article <47ec1994$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?
>>>> Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows.
>>>>
>>>>>                                        I can't believe you'd be so lax
>>>>> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
>>>>> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
>>>>> exploit.
>>>> The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es.
>>>>
>>> Well I suppose you could argue that there are so many unpatched badly mismanaged
>>> Windows systems out there that you have to be unlucky for someone to pick on
>>> your machine to hack into. 
>> Most desktop Windows systems are not running a
>> telnet/FTP/SSH/HTTP/whatever server.
>>
>> As a result they are for all practical purposes never hacked.
>>
> Lots of malware opens up backdoor ports and some of those run public-domain
> ftp server software on those ports.

That is not hacking unless the malware is targeted against a
specific PC.

> Also wormable vulnerabilities (ie those where no user intervention is 
> necessary and the patch states that it may allow remote code execution 
> are just as vulnerable to hackers as they are to having a worm written 
> for them).

Sure.

It is definitely possible. But it just never seems to happen in
real life.

Arne

In article <4814d72c$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>> In article <480169ae$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>>>> In article <47ec1994$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?
>>>>> Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>>>                                        I can't believe you'd be so lax
>>>>>> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
>>>>>> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
>>>>>> exploit.
>>>>> The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es.
>>>>>
>>>> Well I suppose you could argue that there are so many unpatched badly mismanaged
>>>> Windows systems out there that you have to be unlucky for someone to pick on
>>>> your machine to hack into. 
>>> Most desktop Windows systems are not running a
>>> telnet/FTP/SSH/HTTP/whatever server.
>>>
>>> As a result they are for all practical purposes never hacked.
>>>
>> Lots of malware opens up backdoor ports and some of those run public-domain
>> ftp server software on those ports.
>
>That is not hacking unless the malware is targeted against a
>specific PC.
>
I've seen tons of desktop "classroom" PCs which were infected with backdoor
programs by students so that they could show off by ejecting the CD or
controlling the machine in some otherway remotely. These were definitely
targeted at the machines in those particular classrooms and used programs such
as B02K, Sub7 etc etc

That was obviously sometime ago and those particular backdoors would be picked
up by modern anti-virus scanners. We also put in place software which resets
the classroom PCs back to a default state on reboot which rather reduced the
period during which such tricks could be played hence the students haven't been
bothering with that for a while.

From a hacker perspective installing a RAT on a user's PC and recording his
keystrokes whilst he logs in through the company firewall would definitely 
be a better option than directly attacking the firewall.

 
>> Also wormable vulnerabilities (ie those where no user intervention is 
>> necessary and the patch states that it may allow remote code execution 
>> are just as vulnerable to hackers as they are to having a worm written 
>> for them).
>
>Sure.
>
>It is definitely possible. But it just never seems to happen in
>real life.
>
Just because you haven't heard of it happening does mean that it never 
happens.
As referred to above a user's desktop PC may be a great route for hacking other
systems.

There have also been a number of cases where after a court case involving
pornography the defendent has been declared innocent since the computer
involved had backdoor programs installed on it which could have been used to
plant the pictures.

"A landmark trial recently found that illegal pornography had been placed on an
innocent man's computer by a trojan program..."

From 
BEWARE TROJAN'S BEARING GIFS by NEIL BARRETT, IT WEKK 03 JUN 2003


Mark Rasch of SecurityFocus has pointed out 

"In late December 2003, companies around the world began to report a new kind
of cyber-attack that had been apparently going on for about a year. Cyber
extortionists (reportedly from Eastern Europe) threatened to "plant" child
pornography on their computers and then call the cops if they didn't agree to
pay a small fee."





David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University 


>Arne

In article <fv4lqa$kft$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>In article <4814d72c$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>>> In article <480169ae$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>>>>> In article <47ec1994$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>> Cygwin is a Weendoze terminal emulator?
>>>>>> Cygwin is a *nix shell + utilities + libraries for Windows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                                        I can't believe you'd be so lax
>>>>>>> with system security to have username and password to a VMS machine hard-
>>>>>>> coded into a script that any hacker who gets into the Weendoze box could 
>>>>>>> exploit.
>>>>>> The risk of hacking is probably lower than for most OS'es.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Well I suppose you could argue that there are so many unpatched badly mismanaged
>>>>> Windows systems out there that you have to be unlucky for someone to pick on
>>>>> your machine to hack into. 
>>>> Most desktop Windows systems are not running a
>>>> telnet/FTP/SSH/HTTP/whatever server.
>>>>
>>>> As a result they are for all practical purposes never hacked.
>>>>
>>> Lots of malware opens up backdoor ports and some of those run public-domain
>>> ftp server software on those ports.
>>
>>That is not hacking unless the malware is targeted against a
>>specific PC.
>>
>I've seen tons of desktop "classroom" PCs which were infected with backdoor
>programs by students so that they could show off by ejecting the CD or
>controlling the machine in some otherway remotely. These were definitely
>targeted at the machines in those particular classrooms and used programs such
>as B02K, Sub7 etc etc
>
>That was obviously sometime ago and those particular backdoors would be picked
>up by modern anti-virus scanners. We also put in place software which resets
>the classroom PCs back to a default state on reboot which rather reduced the
>period during which such tricks could be played hence the students haven't been
>bothering with that for a while.
>
>From a hacker perspective installing a RAT on a user's PC and recording his
>keystrokes whilst he logs in through the company firewall would definitely 
>be a better option than directly attacking the firewall.
>
> 
>>> Also wormable vulnerabilities (ie those where no user intervention is 
>>> necessary and the patch states that it may allow remote code execution 
>>> are just as vulnerable to hackers as they are to having a worm written 
>>> for them).
>>
>>Sure.
>>
>>It is definitely possible. But it just never seems to happen in
>>real life.
>>
>Just because you haven't heard of it happening does mean that it never 
>happens.

That should obviously have been

"
Just because you haven't heard of it happening doesn't mean that it never 
happens.
"


David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University

>As referred to above a user's desktop PC may be a great route for hacking other
>systems.
>
>There have also been a number of cases where after a court case involving
>pornography the defendent has been declared innocent since the computer
>involved had backdoor programs installed on it which could have been used to
>plant the pictures.
>
>"A landmark trial recently found that illegal pornography had been placed on an
>innocent man's computer by a trojan program..."
>
>From 
>BEWARE TROJAN'S BEARING GIFS by NEIL BARRETT, IT WEKK 03 JUN 2003
>
>
>Mark Rasch of SecurityFocus has pointed out 
>
>"In late December 2003, companies around the world began to report a new kind
>of cyber-attack that had been apparently going on for about a year. Cyber
>extortionists (reportedly from Eastern Europe) threatened to "plant" child
>pornography on their computers and then call the cops if they didn't agree to
>pay a small fee."
>
>
>
>
>
>David Webb
>Security team leader
>CCSS
>Middlesex University 
>
>
>>Arne

david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <fv4lqa$kft$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>> Just because you haven't heard of it happening does mean that it never 
>> happens.
> 
> That should obviously have been
> 
> "
> Just because you haven't heard of it happening doesn't mean that it never 
> happens.
> "

I could figure that out.

Arne

david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <4814d72c$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> That is not hacking unless the malware is targeted against a
>> specific PC.
>>
> I've seen tons of desktop "classroom" PCs which were infected with backdoor
> programs by students so that they could show off by ejecting the CD or
> controlling the machine in some otherway remotely. These were definitely
> targeted at the machines in those particular classrooms and used programs such
> as B02K, Sub7 etc etc

But if the students has been granted access to the systems, then
it is still not hacking.

> From a hacker perspective installing a RAT on a user's PC and recording his
> keystrokes whilst he logs in through the company firewall would definitely 
> be a better option than directly attacking the firewall.

Absolutely.

I just think it is very rare that the malware gets installed via
hacking.

Sending them an email with "click on this EXE to see a nude picture
of xxxxxxxxxx" seems to be the preferred way.

>>
>> It is definitely possible. But it just never seems to happen in
>> real life.
>>
> Just because you haven't heard of it happening does mean that it never 
> happens.

True.

But we hear daily about virus infections etc..

If one hear about 1000 cases of A and 0 cases of B over a year
it is rather obvious to conclude that A is much more frequent than B.

It does not mean that B can not happen.

> There have also been a number of cases where after a court case involving
> pornography the defendent has been declared innocent since the computer
> involved had backdoor programs installed on it which could have been used to
> plant the pictures.
> 
> "A landmark trial recently found that illegal pornography had been placed on an
> innocent man's computer by a trojan program..."

trojan != hacking

There are millions of PC's infected with all kinds of malware.

Arne

In article <48167c60$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>> In article <4814d72c$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> That is not hacking unless the malware is targeted against a
>>> specific PC.
>>>
>> I've seen tons of desktop "classroom" PCs which were infected with backdoor
>> programs by students so that they could show off by ejecting the CD or
>> controlling the machine in some otherway remotely. These were definitely
>> targeted at the machines in those particular classrooms and used programs such
>> as B02K, Sub7 etc etc
>
>But if the students has been granted access to the systems, then
>it is still not hacking.
>
If it requires them to escalate their privileges through a local vulnerability
in order to install the backdoor program then they hacked the system.


>> From a hacker perspective installing a RAT on a user's PC and recording his
>> keystrokes whilst he logs in through the company firewall would definitely 
>> be a better option than directly attacking the firewall.
>
>Absolutely.
>
>I just think it is very rare that the malware gets installed via
>hacking.
>
>Sending them an email with "click on this EXE to see a nude picture
>of xxxxxxxxxx" seems to be the preferred way.
>
Which is a form of hacking - though unless the user has privileges or the code
run can make use of a privilege escalation vulnerability it won't compromise
the whole machine but just that user's account.
Unfortunately many Desktop/Laptop PC users habitually login to their PCs with 
Admin or Admin equivalent privileged accounts.

>>>
>>> It is definitely possible. But it just never seems to happen in
>>> real life.
>>>
>> Just because you haven't heard of it happening does mean that it never 
>> happens.
>
>True.
>
>But we hear daily about virus infections etc..
>
>If one hear about 1000 cases of A and 0 cases of B over a year
>it is rather obvious to conclude that A is much more frequent than B.
>
>It does not mean that B can not happen.
>
>> There have also been a number of cases where after a court case involving
>> pornography the defendent has been declared innocent since the computer
>> involved had backdoor programs installed on it which could have been used to
>> plant the pictures.
>> 
>> "A landmark trial recently found that illegal pornography had been placed on an
>> innocent man's computer by a trojan program..."
>
>trojan != hacking
>
>
Here we will have to disagree. Targetting a user with a trojan is a classic
hacking method.

>There are millions of PC's infected with all kinds of malware.
>
And that somehow means those systems aren't vulnerable to hacking ???


David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University

>Arne

On Apr 28, 9:39 pm, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> > In article <4814d72c$0$90263$14726...@news.sunsite.dk>, =3D?ISO-8859-1?Q=
?Arne_Vajh=3DF8j?=3D <a...@vajhoej.dk> writes:
> >> That is not hacking unless the malware is targeted against a
> >> specific PC.
>
> > I've seen tons of desktop "classroom" PCs which were infected with backd=
oor
> > programs by students so that they could show off by ejecting the CD or
> > controlling the machine in some otherway remotely. These were definitely=

> > targeted at the machines in those particular classrooms and used program=
s such
> > as B02K, Sub7 etc etc
>
> But if the students has been granted access to the systems, then
> it is still not hacking.
>
> > From a hacker perspective installing a RAT on a user's PC and recording =
his
> > keystrokes whilst he logs in through the company firewall would definite=
ly
> > be a better option than directly attacking the firewall.
>
> Absolutely.
>
> I just think it is very rare that the malware gets installed via
> hacking.
>
> Sending them an email with "click on this EXE to see a nude picture
> of xxxxxxxxxx" seems to be the preferred way.
>
>
>
> >> It is definitely possible. But it just never seems to happen in
> >> real life.
>
> > Just because you haven't heard of it happening does mean that it never
> > happens.
>
> True.
>
> But we hear daily about virus infections etc..
>
> If one hear about 1000 cases of A and 0 cases of B over a year
> it is rather obvious to conclude that A is much more frequent than B.
>
> It does not mean that B can not happen.
>
> > There have also been a number of cases where after a court case involvin=
g
> > pornography the defendent has been declared innocent since the computer
> > involved had backdoor programs installed on it which could have been use=
d to
> > plant the pictures.
>
> > "A landmark trial recently found that illegal pornography had been place=
d on an
> > innocent man's computer by a trojan program..."
>
> trojan !=3D hacking
>
> There are millions of PC's infected with all kinds of malware.
>
> Arne

Well then what does constitute hacking?

I've heard of PC's (yes, desktop PC's -- I'm talking about PC's in
users homes by ordinary people) being taken over to distribute all
kinds of malware, to record keystrokes, spyware installs, stealing
financial information, distribute spam. What the hell constitutes
hacking in your mind? Does the PC have to literally explode and burn
down the user's house?

AEF

david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <48167c60$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>>> In article <4814d72c$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> That is not hacking unless the malware is targeted against a
>>>> specific PC.
>>>>
>>> I've seen tons of desktop "classroom" PCs which were infected with backdoor
>>> programs by students so that they could show off by ejecting the CD or
>>> controlling the machine in some otherway remotely. These were definitely
>>> targeted at the machines in those particular classrooms and used programs such
>>> as B02K, Sub7 etc etc
>> But if the students has been granted access to the systems, then
>> it is still not hacking.
>>
> If it requires them to escalate their privileges through a local vulnerability
> in order to install the backdoor program then they hacked the system.

True.

>>> From a hacker perspective installing a RAT on a user's PC and recording his
>>> keystrokes whilst he logs in through the company firewall would definitely 
>>> be a better option than directly attacking the firewall.
>> Absolutely.
>>
>> I just think it is very rare that the malware gets installed via
>> hacking.
>>
>> Sending them an email with "click on this EXE to see a nude picture
>> of xxxxxxxxxx" seems to be the preferred way.
>>
> Which is a form of hacking

Only if it is targeted against specific users. Sending to
50 million email addresses and have the malware report
back of success is not hacking.

>>> "A landmark trial recently found that illegal pornography had been placed on an
>>> innocent man's computer by a trojan program..."
>> trojan != hacking
> Here we will have to disagree. Targetting a user with a trojan is a classic
> hacking method.

If it is indeed targeted against a specific user, then I agree.

But I very much doubt that was the case.

>> There are millions of PC's infected with all kinds of malware.
>>
> And that somehow means those systems aren't vulnerable to hacking ???

It is not an indication of hacking.

At least not among people who consider virus, worms, trojans and
hacking to be distinct.

Arne

AEF wrote:
> On Apr 28, 9:39 pm, Arne Vajh�j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> There are millions of PC's infected with all kinds of malware.
> 
> Well then what does constitute hacking?
> 
> I've heard of PC's (yes, desktop PC's -- I'm talking about PC's in
> users homes by ordinary people) being taken over to distribute all
> kinds of malware, to record keystrokes, spyware installs, stealing
> financial information, distribute spam. What the hell constitutes
> hacking in your mind? Does the PC have to literally explode and burn
> down the user's house?

No.

Hacking is when someone actively do something to gain non authorized
access to a specific computer.

Classic techniques:
- telnet/ssh to a system and guess password
- use SQL injection in an ASP or PHP script on a web server
- call the user on the phone and ask the user to change password
   to "foobar" and the login

It can use viruses and trojans.

But all viruses and trojans are not hacking. In fact practically
none of the known are.

I am sure that certain agencies with 3 letter abbreviations and
secret budgets can use all kinds of viruses and trojans to get
access to a specific PC with secret information on.

But the big malware infections comes from people that:
- like to create chaos
- need it for spamming

The last group do not sit and pick a few computers. They
just create the malware, email it out to 50 million email
addresses, 1 million click on the crap and get infected
and the software report back home.

It takes a few hours of work.

If they could hack a PC in 10 minutes, then hacking the same
1 million PC'es would take 19 years.

They could automate some of it and do some of it in parallel, but still
completely inefficient.

Arne

In article <48279ac8$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>AEF wrote:
>> On Apr 28, 9:39 pm, Arne Vajh�j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> There are millions of PC's infected with all kinds of malware.
>> 
>> Well then what does constitute hacking?
>> 
>> I've heard of PC's (yes, desktop PC's -- I'm talking about PC's in
>> users homes by ordinary people) being taken over to distribute all
>> kinds of malware, to record keystrokes, spyware installs, stealing
>> financial information, distribute spam. What the hell constitutes
>> hacking in your mind? Does the PC have to literally explode and burn
>> down the user's house?
>
>No.
>
>Hacking is when someone actively do something to gain non authorized
>access to a specific computer.
>
Sorry for not replying to this earlier but I've been away for a while and am
only now starting to catch up.


Your definition is much much too narrow.
Some of the general definitions of hacking used are listed at 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Hacking&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

(ignore the few non-computing ones)

They say things like


"
Unauthorized use, or attempts to circumvent or bypass the security mechanisms
of an information system or network.

This term is used to indicate breaking into computers or computer networks by
avoiding safety measures. Persons who perform the act of hacking, are called
hackers.

Hacking means illegally accessing other people's computer systems for
destroying, disrupting or carrying out illegal activities on the network or
computer systems.

"Hacking" and related activities is prohibited. "Hacking" includes, but is not
limited to, the following activities: illegally or without authorization
accessing computers, accounts or networks, penetrating or attempting to
penetrate security measures, port scans, stealth scans and other ...

"


Hacking is the general term used to cover all these activities related to
illegal access to computer systems.

Your personal definition I'd have to call something like "targetted hacking"
though even then in practise the target would usually be all computers owned by
a particular organisation and would involve scanning those computers for
vulnerabilities before deciding which specific systems to attack.

>Classic techniques:
>- telnet/ssh to a system and guess password
>- use SQL injection in an ASP or PHP script on a web server
>- call the user on the phone and ask the user to change password
>   to "foobar" and the login
>
>It can use viruses and trojans.
>
>But all viruses and trojans are not hacking. In fact practically
>none of the known are.
>
Sorry a system which has been owned because of a virus or trojan has been
hacked. It is pretty much irrelevent how many other systems around the world 
were attacked in the same way. If the system is owned by someone else then I 
can no longer trust that system and have to take measures to shut out the 
intruder and clean up that system.

>I am sure that certain agencies with 3 letter abbreviations and
>secret budgets can use all kinds of viruses and trojans to get
>access to a specific PC with secret information on.
>
>But the big malware infections comes from people that:
>- like to create chaos
>- need it for spamming
>
Spamming is big business. Most botnets are now controlled by criminal gangs and
hired out for profit to spammers, those who want to create DDOS attacks or for
other uses.


>The last group do not sit and pick a few computers. They
>just create the malware, email it out to 50 million email
>addresses, 1 million click on the crap and get infected
>and the software report back home.
>
>It takes a few hours of work.
>
>If they could hack a PC in 10 minutes, then hacking the same
>1 million PC'es would take 19 years.
>

>They could automate some of it and do some of it in parallel, but still
>completely inefficient.
>
Sorry but automating it is exactly what they have done by sending out those
mails, releasing worms etc

I assume from your personal definition of hacking that you would not regard
worms such as the Morris worm, WANK worm etc as hacking even though they used
vulnerabilities which someone could have used to individually attack those
vulnerable systems. A worm is an automated hacker - it scans for systems
vulnerable to the hack attacks it knows about and then uses those
vulnerabilities to hack into those systems. As a hacking technique it doesn't
generally target particular organisations but rather particular 
vulnerabilities. However those who fall victim to it have been hacked just as
much as someone whose system was specifically targeted through those same
vulnerabilities.



David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University


>Arne