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How does the printer choose which black ink to use when it has pigment and dye based black ??

I just ordered a Canon iP4500, which has two black cartridges,  a dye based 
one and a larger pigment based one, for text.

When you print out a page that is mostly text, but has colour on it as well, 
does it still use the pigment based ink?  What about if you print out a 
colour map from Google Maps, for example?  What about a PDF file of a 
magazine page, which is text, but with a light coloured background (maybe 
with a pattern)?

Would it just use the dye based ink for these types of page, or does it 
somehow know what is type or not?  I could imagine that being easy with a 
PostScript printer, or can the printer driver know this now, and so the 
pigment ink is used?

ss. 


0
Synapse
1/27/2008 12:25:03 PM
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"Synapse Syndrome" <synapse@NOSPAMgomez404.elitemail.org> wrote in message 
news:SIydnbb-bP-C5QHanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com...
>I just ordered a Canon iP4500, which has two black cartridges,  a dye based 
>one and a larger pigment based one, for text.
>
> When you print out a page that is mostly text, but has colour on it as 
> well, does it still use the pigment based ink?  What about if you print 
> out a colour map from Google Maps, for example?  What about a PDF file of 
> a magazine page, which is text, but with a light coloured background 
> (maybe with a pattern)?
>
> Would it just use the dye based ink for these types of page, or does it 
> somehow know what is type or not?  I could imagine that being easy with a 
> PostScript printer, or can the printer driver know this now, and so the 
> pigment ink is used?
>
> ss.
>

Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses pigment. If you 
select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex printing also forces dye to 
speed drying times. 


0
DanG
1/27/2008 2:45:16 PM
"DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
news:D_udnfZfgI9kBQHanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses pigment. If 
> you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex printing also forces dye 
> to speed drying times.


Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing quite a 
bit.

So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in colour, at the 
top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment ink still?  Even when 
colour is used in the background, as long as 'Plain Paper' is selected, 
pigment is used?  And what about a Google Map, printed on plain paper? 
Maybe I should wait, and check myself.

Cheers

ss. 


0
Synapse
1/27/2008 4:29:52 PM
Synapse Syndrome wrote:
> "DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
> news:D_udnfZfgI9kBQHanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses pigment. If 
>> you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex printing also forces dye 
>> to speed drying times.
> 
> 
> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing quite a 
> bit.
> 
> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in colour, at the 
> top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment ink still?  Even when 
> colour is used in the background, as long as 'Plain Paper' is selected, 
> pigment is used?  And what about a Google Map, printed on plain paper? 
> Maybe I should wait, and check myself.

It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black and 
white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other ink tanks 
are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what type of paper 
is specified.
0
Michael
1/27/2008 4:58:09 PM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:2pCdnbJaXOeSJQHanZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Synapse Syndrome wrote:
>> "DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
>> news:D_udnfZfgI9kBQHanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses pigment. If 
>>> you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex printing also forces dye 
>>> to speed drying times.
>>
>>
>> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing quite a 
>> bit.
>>
>> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in colour, at 
>> the top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment ink still?  Even 
>> when colour is used in the background, as long as 'Plain Paper' is 
>> selected, pigment is used?  And what about a Google Map, printed on plain 
>> paper? Maybe I should wait, and check myself.
>
> It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black and 
> white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other ink tanks 
> are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what type of paper 
> is specified.

This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black is 
used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when other 
paper types are selected, (or duplex). 


0
DanG
1/27/2008 7:35:27 PM
DanG wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:2pCdnbJaXOeSJQHanZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Synapse Syndrome wrote:
>>> "DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:D_udnfZfgI9kBQHanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses pigment. If 
>>>> you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex printing also forces dye 
>>>> to speed drying times.
>>>
>>> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing quite a 
>>> bit.
>>>
>>> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in colour, at 
>>> the top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment ink still?  Even 
>>> when colour is used in the background, as long as 'Plain Paper' is 
>>> selected, pigment is used?  And what about a Google Map, printed on plain 
>>> paper? Maybe I should wait, and check myself.
>> It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black and 
>> white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other ink tanks 
>> are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what type of paper 
>> is specified.
> 
> This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black is 
> used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when other 
> paper types are selected, (or duplex). 

Thanks for the clarification.
0
Michael
1/27/2008 8:09:19 PM
On 1/27/2008 2:09 PM, Michael Johnson wrote:
> DanG wrote:
>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>> news:2pCdnbJaXOeSJQHanZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> Synapse Syndrome wrote:
>>>> "DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:D_udnfZfgI9kBQHanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses 
>>>>> pigment. If you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex 
>>>>> printing also forces dye to speed drying times.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing 
>>>> quite a bit.
>>>>
>>>> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in 
>>>> colour, at the top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment 
>>>> ink still?  Even when colour is used in the background, as long as 
>>>> 'Plain Paper' is selected, pigment is used?  And what about a Google 
>>>> Map, printed on plain paper? Maybe I should wait, and check myself.
>>> It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black and 
>>> white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other ink 
>>> tanks are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what type 
>>> of paper is specified.
>>
>> This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black 
>> is used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when 
>> other paper types are selected, (or duplex). 
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors 
(which are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend 
properly with the dye inks.
0
Bernie
1/27/2008 11:17:31 PM
Bernie wrote:
> On 1/27/2008 2:09 PM, Michael Johnson wrote:
>> DanG wrote:
>>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:2pCdnbJaXOeSJQHanZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> Synapse Syndrome wrote:
>>>>> "DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:D_udnfZfgI9kBQHanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses 
>>>>>> pigment. If you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex 
>>>>>> printing also forces dye to speed drying times.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing 
>>>>> quite a bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in 
>>>>> colour, at the top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment 
>>>>> ink still?  Even when colour is used in the background, as long as 
>>>>> 'Plain Paper' is selected, pigment is used?  And what about a 
>>>>> Google Map, printed on plain paper? Maybe I should wait, and check 
>>>>> myself.
>>>> It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black 
>>>> and white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other 
>>>> ink tanks are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what 
>>>> type of paper is specified.
>>>
>>> This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment 
>>> black is used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used 
>>> is when other paper types are selected, (or duplex). 
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
> over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
> printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors 
> (which are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend 
> properly with the dye inks.

I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up. 
  I believe it was something I read here a long time ago.
0
Michael
1/28/2008 12:35:56 AM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses pigment. 
>>>>>>> If you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex printing also 
>>>>>>> forces dye to speed drying times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing 
>>>>>> quite a bit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in colour, 
>>>>>> at the top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment ink 
>>>>>> still?  Even when colour is used in the background, as long as 'Plain 
>>>>>> Paper' is selected, pigment is used?  And what about a Google Map, 
>>>>>> printed on plain paper? Maybe I should wait, and check myself.
>>>>> It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black and 
>>>>> white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other ink 
>>>>> tanks are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what type 
>>>>> of paper is specified.
>>>>
>>>> This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black 
>>>> is used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when 
>>>> other paper types are selected, (or duplex).
>>>
>>> Thanks for the clarification.
>>
>> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
>> over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
>> printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors (which 
>> are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend properly 
>> with the dye inks.
>
> I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up. I 
> believe it was something I read here a long time ago.

Well I was planning on printing my company logo at the top of pages I print 
out, and if that means that the text gets printed in the dye ink, I should 
have got another B&W laser instead.

ss. 


0
Synapse
1/28/2008 12:53:04 AM
"Synapse Syndrome" <synapse@NOSPAMgomez404.elitemail.org> wrote in message 
news:d7udnShdmr_tugDanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses 
>>>>>>>> pigment. If you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex 
>>>>>>>> printing also forces dye to speed drying times.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing 
>>>>>>> quite a bit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in 
>>>>>>> colour, at the top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment 
>>>>>>> ink still?  Even when colour is used in the background, as long as 
>>>>>>> 'Plain Paper' is selected, pigment is used?  And what about a Google 
>>>>>>> Map, printed on plain paper? Maybe I should wait, and check myself.
>>>>>> It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black and 
>>>>>> white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other ink 
>>>>>> tanks are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what type 
>>>>>> of paper is specified.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black 
>>>>> is used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when 
>>>>> other paper types are selected, (or duplex).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the clarification.
>>>
>>> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
>>> over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
>>> printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors 
>>> (which are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend 
>>> properly with the dye inks.
>>
>> I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up. 
>> I believe it was something I read here a long time ago.
>
> Well I was planning on printing my company logo at the top of pages I 
> print out, and if that means that the text gets printed in the dye ink, I 
> should have got another B&W laser instead.
>
> ss.
>


I don't know about. I just suspect it uses pigmented ink when 100% solid 
black (for plain paper). In all other cases, I suppose it uses dye ink. For 
example in the case you mentioned, it should use pigmented for text (100% 
black) and dye black for the logo and for grays, etc.

-- 

Yianni
jir9_2006@yahoo.gr   (��������� ��� ������ ����� ��� �� email)

0
Yianni
1/28/2008 1:31:49 AM
Correct


> I don't know about. I just suspect it uses pigmented ink when 100% solid 
> black (for plain paper). In all other cases, I suppose it uses dye ink. 
> For example in the case you mentioned, it should use pigmented for text 
> (100% black) and dye black for the logo and for grays, etc.


0
Michael
1/28/2008 1:39:49 AM
Yianni wrote:
> "Synapse Syndrome" <synapse@NOSPAMgomez404.elitemail.org> wrote in 
> message news:d7udnShdmr_tugDanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
>>
>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>> news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses 
>>>>>>>>> pigment. If you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex 
>>>>>>>>> printing also forces dye to speed drying times.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex 
>>>>>>>> printing quite a bit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in 
>>>>>>>> colour, at the top, the letter body text will be printed in 
>>>>>>>> pigment ink still?  Even when colour is used in the background, 
>>>>>>>> as long as 'Plain Paper' is selected, pigment is used?  And what 
>>>>>>>> about a Google Map, printed on plain paper? Maybe I should wait, 
>>>>>>>> and check myself.
>>>>>>> It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black 
>>>>>>> and white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the 
>>>>>>> other ink tanks are used it switches to the dye based black no 
>>>>>>> matter what type of paper is specified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment 
>>>>>> black is used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is 
>>>>>> used is when other paper types are selected, (or duplex).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the clarification.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've 
>>>> read over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for 
>>>> double-sided printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the 
>>>> other colors (which are also dye).  That is because the pigment 
>>>> black doesn't blend properly with the dye inks.
>>>
>>> I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it 
>>> up. I believe it was something I read here a long time ago.
>>
>> Well I was planning on printing my company logo at the top of pages I 
>> print out, and if that means that the text gets printed in the dye 
>> ink, I should have got another B&W laser instead.
>>
>> ss.
>>
> 
> 
> I don't know about. I just suspect it uses pigmented ink when 100% solid 
> black (for plain paper). In all other cases, I suppose it uses dye ink. 
> For example in the case you mentioned, it should use pigmented for text 
> (100% black) and dye black for the logo and for grays, etc.

The configuration of the jets in the head are different for the pigment 
black than the other dye cartridges.  For this reason I don't see how 
the pigment jets can work with the dye jets to lay down the ink with 
enough precision.  They are physically different and located apart from 
each other.

0
Michael
1/28/2008 2:06:18 AM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:deCdnd2HoIYUpQDanZ2dnUVZ_rKtnZ2d@giganews.com...

> The configuration of the jets in the head are different for the pigment 
> black than the other dye cartridges.  For this reason I don't see how the 
> pigment jets can work with the dye jets to lay down the ink with enough 
> precision.  They are physically different and located apart from each 
> other.

That is not an issue, as the printer "knows" how far apart the various 
nozzles are, as well as the nominal sizes of the ink drops.  The clever 
printer firmware can handle properly placing inks from different printheads 
in the proper locations on the paper.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
 

0
Bob
1/28/2008 3:27:52 AM
Good information to know,  Thanks.

Does the black pigment ink work properly with non-plain papers?

I know on some older pigment ink  Epson printers, the black ink would 
(the C80 for instance) not adhere to the original photo quality gloss 
papers (it would not normally be used by the printer, but you could 
"trick" it by using the plain paper driver and placing a glossy page in.)

The ink was designed to dry very rapidly, so it lacked the resins 
required to adhere the ink to the glossy papers.  The newer formulations 
(for Epson pigment printers) added the resin to the black ink, and they 
also released a specially surfaced paper for the C80 which would allow 
the black ink to integrate into the surface.

Art

DanG wrote:


> 
>  Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black is 
> used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when other 
> paper types are selected, (or duplex). 
> 
> 
0
Arthur
1/28/2008 4:12:18 AM
Bob Headrick wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:deCdnd2HoIYUpQDanZ2dnUVZ_rKtnZ2d@giganews.com...
> 
>> The configuration of the jets in the head are different for the 
>> pigment black than the other dye cartridges.  For this reason I don't 
>> see how the pigment jets can work with the dye jets to lay down the 
>> ink with enough precision.  They are physically different and located 
>> apart from each other.
> 
> That is not an issue, as the printer "knows" how far apart the various 
> nozzles are, as well as the nominal sizes of the ink drops.  The clever 
> printer firmware can handle properly placing inks from different 
> printheads in the proper locations on the paper.

The pigment row of jets is physically longer then the dye rows.  It is 
actually 2-3 times longer and doesn't line up with the dye rows evenly. 
  This would mean only a small part of the row of pigment jets would 
fire when printing with the other dye rows on the same pass.  The jet 
configuration in the head seems to indicate to me that the pigment jets 
work by themselves and the dye jets work only with each other.  Add to 
this the inks are different makeups and the pigment jets max out at 600 
dpi while the dye jets max out at 1,200-4,800 dpi and I don't see how 
they can work together.  Anyone have any links to webs sites that 
confirms this one way or the other?
0
Michael
1/28/2008 4:17:17 AM
I can't speak specifically about the Canon drivers, but I can speak a 
bit about ink technology.

You are correct that the dye inks does not blend well with the pigment 
black ink.  This is a problem with coated papers where the inks need to 
interact to create a photo quality result, and where the gloss factor 
needs to be identical between the different colors, or you get bronzing 
or gloss differential.  Also, pigment inks require adhesives to stick to 
most glossy papers, because the pigment ink particles tend to sit on the 
paper surface.

However, on plain paper, the inks penetrate even if they are pigment 
colorant based, in fact, in denser areas using a pigment black can help 
to hold the darker areas tighter because the pigment inks tend to have 
lower dot gain, making the black ink create a better edge and sharper 
looking image.  That's one reason (besides that the ink is less fugitive 
to light) for using a black pigment ink for text.  Pigment black is also 
more dense and needs less ink for the same density coverage, and that 
too helps to limit dot gain.

So, although I am not weighing in one which of you is correct, since I 
don't know for sure, it would not be unreasonable to assume the pigment 
black is used for the plain paper images regardless of the image type 
and not used with the drivers for coated papers.


Art

Bernie wrote:

> On 1/27/2008 2:09 PM, Michael Johnson wrote:
> 
>> DanG wrote:
>>
>>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:2pCdnbJaXOeSJQHanZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>>> Synapse Syndrome wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:D_udnfZfgI9kBQHanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses 
>>>>>> pigment. If you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex 
>>>>>> printing also forces dye to speed drying times.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing 
>>>>> quite a bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in 
>>>>> colour, at the top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment 
>>>>> ink still?  Even when colour is used in the background, as long as 
>>>>> 'Plain Paper' is selected, pigment is used?  And what about a 
>>>>> Google Map, printed on plain paper? Maybe I should wait, and check 
>>>>> myself.
>>>>
>>>> It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black 
>>>> and white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other 
>>>> ink tanks are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what 
>>>> type of paper is specified.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment 
>>> black is used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used 
>>> is when other paper types are selected, (or duplex). 
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
> over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
> printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors 
> (which are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend 
> properly with the dye inks.
0
Arthur
1/28/2008 4:31:38 AM
Why not test it if you already have the printer operating.  The pigment 
black ink look qualitatively different than the dye black inks.  It sits 
more on the surface, is more dense and velvety black, and it looks sharper.

Take the same letter with the colored logo, and print it once on the 
plain paper setting, and once on the glossy or inkjet matte setting, but 
print all on plain paper.

If the one on plain paper has black text which looks different it 
probably means that different black inks were used.

Another way to check... after printing each, wait for them to dry well 
and then take a part of the paper with black text ink and place it in 
warm water.  If the lettering bleeds badly, the ink is dye, if the ink 
pretty much sits and doesn't bleed, it is probably pigment.  The reason 
I say probably is that some "pigment" inks are actually hybrids with 
some dyes to darken or color correct them to make them more neutral.

Art

Synapse Syndrome wrote:

> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
> 
>>>>>>>>Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses pigment. 
>>>>>>>>If you select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex printing also 
>>>>>>>>forces dye to speed drying times.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh, that's a bit crap.  I was planning to use the duplex printing 
>>>>>>>quite a bit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in colour, 
>>>>>>>at the top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment ink 
>>>>>>>still?  Even when colour is used in the background, as long as 'Plain 
>>>>>>>Paper' is selected, pigment is used?  And what about a Google Map, 
>>>>>>>printed on plain paper? Maybe I should wait, and check myself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black and 
>>>>>>white documents printed on plain paper.  Once any of the other ink 
>>>>>>tanks are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what type 
>>>>>>of paper is specified.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black 
>>>>>is used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when 
>>>>>other paper types are selected, (or duplex).
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for the clarification.
>>>
>>>I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
>>>over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
>>>printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors (which 
>>>are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend properly 
>>>with the dye inks.
>>
>>I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up. I 
>>believe it was something I read here a long time ago.
> 
> 
> Well I was planning on printing my company logo at the top of pages I print 
> out, and if that means that the text gets printed in the dye ink, I should 
> have got another B&W laser instead.
> 
> ss. 
> 
> 
0
Arthur
1/28/2008 4:38:58 AM
"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message 
news:CCcnj.19335$ow.7324@pd7urf1no...
> Good information to know,  Thanks.
>
> Does the black pigment ink work properly with non-plain papers?
>
> I know on some older pigment ink  Epson printers, the black ink would (the 
> C80 for instance) not adhere to the original photo quality gloss papers 
> (it would not normally be used by the printer, but you could "trick" it by 
> using the plain paper driver and placing a glossy page in.)
>
> The ink was designed to dry very rapidly, so it lacked the resins required 
> to adhere the ink to the glossy papers.  The newer formulations (for Epson 
> pigment printers) added the resin to the black ink, and they also released 
> a specially surfaced paper for the C80 which would allow the black ink to 
> integrate into the surface.
>
> Art
>

Can't speak for all papers, but generally, coated paper is a bad match for 
pigment black. Heavy paper with a shiny surface also tends to have issues 
with drying and smudging. 


0
DanG
1/28/2008 4:42:20 AM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
>> over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
>> printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors (which 
>> are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend properly 
>> with the dye inks.
>
> I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up. I 
> believe it was something I read here a long time ago.

I'll just add one very specific piece of evidence. I have a IP3000 that has 
no dye black, and it blends the pigment black with the dye colors all day 
long. (On plain paper only). It's very easy to tell, because it's 
black-black. When the printer uses color inks to make black on photo/premium 
paper settings, it's not black-black. These are the same inks used in IP4xxx 
printers. I'll also add that on a IP4xxx printer, if you never use anything 
but plain paper settings, the dye black ink takes about a year to run out, 
as it's only expended in cleaning cycles. And if that's not enough for you: 
When you use plain paper settings on premium paper, the pigment ink is easy 
to pick out because it doesn't dry and smudges easily. It also looks very 
different than the dye black does on the same paper. 


0
DanG
1/28/2008 4:50:05 AM
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Good information to know,  Thanks.
> 
> Does the black pigment ink work properly with non-plain papers?

I haven't tricked the printer into thinking it was printing on plain 
paper while feeding it photo type paper.  If I remember I'll try it 
tomorrow.

> I know on some older pigment ink  Epson printers, the black ink would 
> (the C80 for instance) not adhere to the original photo quality gloss 
> papers (it would not normally be used by the printer, but you could 
> "trick" it by using the plain paper driver and placing a glossy page in.)
> 
> The ink was designed to dry very rapidly, so it lacked the resins 
> required to adhere the ink to the glossy papers.  The newer formulations 
> (for Epson pigment printers) added the resin to the black ink, and they 
> also released a specially surfaced paper for the C80 which would allow 
> the black ink to integrate into the surface.

As I mentioned in another post in this thread, the print head on the 
iP4000 and MP780 I have doesn't look like it could print pigment ink 
along with the dye ink.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer and ends 
before the dye rows end.  It looks to be physically improbable for the 
dye jets to lay down ink properly with the pigment jets on the same pass.

> Art
> 
> DanG wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>>  Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black is used. 
>> (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when other 
>> paper types are selected, (or duplex).
>>
0
Michael
1/28/2008 4:59:27 AM
DanG wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
>>> over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
>>> printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors (which 
>>> are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend properly 
>>> with the dye inks.
>> I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up. I 
>> believe it was something I read here a long time ago.
> 
> I'll just add one very specific piece of evidence. I have a IP3000 that has 
> no dye black, and it blends the pigment black with the dye colors all day 
> long. (On plain paper only). It's very easy to tell, because it's 
> black-black. When the printer uses color inks to make black on photo/premium 
> paper settings, it's not black-black. These are the same inks used in IP4xxx 
> printers. I'll also add that on a IP4xxx printer, if you never use anything 
> but plain paper settings, the dye black ink takes about a year to run out, 
> as it's only expended in cleaning cycles. And if that's not enough for you: 
> When you use plain paper settings on premium paper, the pigment ink is easy 
> to pick out because it doesn't dry and smudges easily. It also looks very 
> different than the dye black does on the same paper. 

Look at the nozzle configuration on the head.  The row for pigment is 
very different than the dye rows.  They physically don't line up.  It 
looks to me that they are designed to work independently from each 
other.  It also explains why the ppm rate for black and white is much 
faster than color.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer than the dye 
rows so it lays down a much wider swath of ink on every pass.
0
Michael
1/28/2008 5:06:27 AM
"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message 
news:C%cnj.16835$4w.2208@pd7urf2no...
> Why not test it if you already have the printer operating.  The pigment 
> black ink look qualitatively different than the dye black inks.  It sits 
> more on the surface, is more dense and velvety black, and it looks 
> sharper.
>
> Take the same letter with the colored logo, and print it once on the plain 
> paper setting, and once on the glossy or inkjet matte setting, but print 
> all on plain paper.
>
> If the one on plain paper has black text which looks different it probably 
> means that different black inks were used.
>
> Another way to check... after printing each, wait for them to dry well and 
> then take a part of the paper with black text ink and place it in warm 
> water.  If the lettering bleeds badly, the ink is dye, if the ink pretty 
> much sits and doesn't bleed, it is probably pigment.  The reason I say 
> probably is that some "pigment" inks are actually hybrids with some dyes 
> to darken or color correct them to make them more neutral.


Yes, I am planning to make tests such as these, as soon as I get it.  I only 
ordered the printer a couple of days ago, and it should arrive by Friday (I 
chose the free delivery option, so it's quite a but slower).

ss. 


0
Synapse
1/28/2008 11:31:43 AM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:V5KdnWLe9PhM_wDanZ2dnUVZ_t2inZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Look at the nozzle configuration on the head.  The row for pigment is
> very different than the dye rows.  They physically don't line up.  It 
> looks to me that they are designed to work independently from each other. 
> It also explains why the ppm rate for black and white is much faster than 
> color.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer than the dye rows so it lays 
> down a much wider swath of ink on every pass.

You can look at the heads all day long. The fact remains that they do, in 
fact, print black and color at the same time. If you wish to demonstrate 
this to yourself, simply print a page and stop the print 1/2 way through and 
inspect it.

The reason the pigment black head is larger is to produce the faster times 
on documents when no color is used. 


0
DanG
1/28/2008 1:32:30 PM
DanG wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
>>> over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
>>> printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors (which 
>>> are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend properly 
>>> with the dye inks.
>> I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up. I 
>> believe it was something I read here a long time ago.
> 
> I'll just add one very specific piece of evidence. I have a IP3000 that has 
> no dye black, and it blends the pigment black with the dye colors all day 
> long. (On plain paper only). It's very easy to tell, because it's 
> black-black. When the printer uses color inks to make black on photo/premium 
> paper settings, it's not black-black. These are the same inks used in IP4xxx 
> printers. I'll also add that on a IP4xxx printer, if you never use anything 
> but plain paper settings, the dye black ink takes about a year to run out, 
> as it's only expended in cleaning cycles. And if that's not enough for you: 
> When you use plain paper settings on premium paper, the pigment ink is easy 
> to pick out because it doesn't dry and smudges easily. It also looks very 
> different than the dye black does on the same paper. 
> 
> 
I can't speak for other printers, having only observed my own. However, 
my HP PSC 2110 has used only the pigment black along with the dye-based 
tricolor cartridge, as I have never used the photo cartridge that's 
available for it. I can tell you that the black is always used in 
conjunction with the tricolors when printing on plain paper in color, 
and that there are no "blending" issues that I can see. In fact, if I am 
printing in color and the black cart happens to run out of ink, none of 
the colors look anywhere near "right." Furthermore, even when printing 
plain black text, unless I specifically tell the printer to use the 
black cart only, a small amount of the tricolor ink will be used, I 
guess to "enhance" the blackness. At least this is true when printing 
from the Linux version of OpenOffice.

TJ

-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

0
TJ
1/28/2008 2:26:49 PM
Michael Johnson wrote:
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>> Good information to know,  Thanks.
>>
>> Does the black pigment ink work properly with non-plain papers?
> 
> I haven't tricked the printer into thinking it was printing on plain 
> paper while feeding it photo type paper.  If I remember I'll try it 
> tomorrow.
> 
>> I know on some older pigment ink  Epson printers, the black ink would 
>> (the C80 for instance) not adhere to the original photo quality gloss 
>> papers (it would not normally be used by the printer, but you could 
>> "trick" it by using the plain paper driver and placing a glossy page in.)
>>
>> The ink was designed to dry very rapidly, so it lacked the resins 
>> required to adhere the ink to the glossy papers.  The newer 
>> formulations (for Epson pigment printers) added the resin to the black 
>> ink, and they also released a specially surfaced paper for the C80 
>> which would allow the black ink to integrate into the surface.
> 
> As I mentioned in another post in this thread, the print head on the 
> iP4000 and MP780 I have doesn't look like it could print pigment ink 
> along with the dye ink.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer and ends 
> before the dye rows end.  It looks to be physically improbable for the 
> dye jets to lay down ink properly with the pigment jets on the same pass.
> 
So is there any reason it couldn't print the colors when going one way 
and pigment black on the way back? Just wondering...

TJ

-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

0
TJ
1/28/2008 2:30:58 PM
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
<br>
DanG wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hLqdnSkf2Pm0wADanZ2dnUVZ_rWtnZ2d@comcast.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">"Arthur Entlich" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:e-printerhelp@mvps.org">&lt;e-printerhelp@mvps.org&gt;</a> wrote in message 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:CCcnj.19335$ow.7324@pd7urf1no">news:CCcnj.19335$ow.7324@pd7urf1no</a>...
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Good information to know,  Thanks.

Does the black pigment ink work properly with non-plain papers?

I know on some older pigment ink  Epson printers, the black ink would (the 
C80 for instance) not adhere to the original photo quality gloss papers 
(it would not normally be used by the printer, but you could "trick" it by 
using the plain paper driver and placing a glossy page in.)

The ink was designed to dry very rapidly, so it lacked the resins required 
to adhere the ink to the glossy papers.  The newer formulations (for Epson 
pigment printers) added the resin to the black ink, and they also released 
a specially surfaced paper for the C80 which would allow the black ink to 
integrate into the surface.

Art

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Can't speak for all papers, but generally, coated paper is a bad match for 
pigment black. </pre>
</blockquote>
Epson appears to have solved that problem.&nbsp; Look at the R1800.&nbsp; I do
not know if the Canon Pro9500 has a problem with coated papers.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hLqdnSkf2Pm0wADanZ2dnUVZ_rWtnZ2d@comcast.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Heavy paper with a shiny surface also tends to have issues 
with drying and smudging. 


  </pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
0
measekite
1/28/2008 5:05:00 PM
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
<br>
DanG wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:EcudnWlnqpFkwwDanZ2dnUVZ_ternZ2d@comcast.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">"Michael Johnson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cds@erols.com">&lt;cds@erols.com&gt;</a> wrote in message 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com">news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com</a>...
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read 
over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided 
printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors (which 
are also dye).  That is because the pigment black doesn't blend properly 
with the dye inks.
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up. I 
believe it was something I read here a long time ago.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I'll just add one very specific piece of evidence. I have a IP3000 </pre>
</blockquote>
That is a step below the IP4000.&nbsp; I originally bought an IP3000 but
returned it having never taken it out of the box and bought an IP4000.&nbsp;
I am glad I had enough sense to do that since it produces superior
photos.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:EcudnWlnqpFkwwDanZ2dnUVZ_ternZ2d@comcast.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">that has 
no dye black, and it blends the pigment black with the dye colors all day 
long. (On plain paper only). It's very easy to tell, because it's 
black-black. When the printer uses color inks to make black on photo/premium 
paper settings, it's not black-black. These are the same inks used in IP4xxx 
printers. I'll also add that on a IP4xxx printer, if you never use anything 
but plain paper settings, the dye black ink takes about a year to run out, 
as it's only expended in cleaning cycles. And if that's not enough for you: 
When you use plain paper settings on premium paper, the pigment ink is easy 
to pick out because it doesn't dry and smudges easily. It also looks very 
different than the dye black does on the same paper. 


  </pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
0
measekite
1/28/2008 5:06:58 PM

Michael Johnson wrote:
> DanG wrote:
>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>> news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've 
>>>> read over the years.  In addition to using the dye ink for 
>>>> double-sided printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the 
>>>> other colors (which are also dye).  That is because the pigment 
>>>> black doesn't blend properly with the dye inks.
>>> I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it 
>>> up. I believe it was something I read here a long time ago.
>>
>> I'll just add one very specific piece of evidence. I have a IP3000 
>> that has no dye black, and it blends the pigment black with the dye 
>> colors all day long. (On plain paper only). It's very easy to tell, 
>> because it's black-black. When the printer uses color inks to make 
>> black on photo/premium paper settings, it's not black-black. These 
>> are the same inks used in IP4xxx printers. I'll also add that on a 
>> IP4xxx printer, if you never use anything but plain paper settings, 
>> the dye black ink takes about a year to run out, as it's only 
>> expended in cleaning cycles. And if that's not enough for you: When 
>> you use plain paper settings on premium paper, the pigment ink is 
>> easy to pick out because it doesn't dry and smudges easily. It also 
>> looks very different than the dye black does on the same paper. 
>
> Look at the nozzle configuration on the head.  The row for pigment is 
> very different than the dye rows.  They physically don't line up.  It 
> looks to me that they are designed to work independently from each 
> other.  It also explains why the ppm rate for black and white is much 
> faster than color.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer than the dye 
> rows so it lays down a much wider swath of ink on every pass.
This discussion is a waste of time by posters who do not really know and 
sometimes appear like they do not want to know but would rather argue 
about this stuff.  If one really want to know then call up Canon and 
find a support person who has this knowledge and ask them.
0
measekite
1/28/2008 5:10:08 PM
measekite wrote:


> 
> This discussion is a waste of time by posters who do not really know and 
> sometimes appear like they do not want to know but would rather argue 
> about this stuff. 

Uhhh...you're talking about yourself right?

  If one really want to know then call up Canon and
> find a support person who has this knowledge and ask them.

Is that what you've been trying to do?
I wouldn't bother if I were you...Canon already knows that you are a 
brain dead moron idiot loser.
Frank
0
Frank
1/28/2008 5:26:34 PM
DanG wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:V5KdnWLe9PhM_wDanZ2dnUVZ_t2inZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> Look at the nozzle configuration on the head.  The row for pigment is
>> very different than the dye rows.  They physically don't line up.  It 
>> looks to me that they are designed to work independently from each other. 
>> It also explains why the ppm rate for black and white is much faster than 
>> color.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer than the dye rows so it lays 
>> down a much wider swath of ink on every pass.
> 
> You can look at the heads all day long. The fact remains that they do, in 
> fact, print black and color at the same time. If you wish to demonstrate 
> this to yourself, simply print a page and stop the print 1/2 way through and 
> inspect it.

I just printed a partial color page and the black was laid down before 
any color which leads me to believe it is the pigment nozzles.  The 
funny thing is it wasn't the full width of the pigment nozzles, just a 
portion.  Roughly 2X the width of the color nozzles.  If it does use the 
pigment then not all of the nozzles appear to fire on a given pass of 
the head.

> The reason the pigment black head is larger is to produce the faster times 
> on documents when no color is used. 
> 
> 
0
Michael
1/28/2008 5:44:47 PM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:h5-dnVGXraLhiQPanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@giganews.com...
it.
>
> I just printed a partial color page and the black was laid down before any 
> color which leads me to believe it is the pigment nozzles.  The funny 
> thing is it wasn't the full width of the pigment nozzles, just a portion. 
> Roughly 2X the width of the color nozzles.  If it does use the pigment 
> then not all of the nozzles appear to fire on a given pass of the head.
>


Sounds right. If you print plain black text, it'll use all the nozzles. My 
assumption is that it's configured this way to allow the pigment black a bit 
of time to dry before the color is laid down. 


0
DanG
1/28/2008 6:32:49 PM
"Frank" <fb@signm.crt> wrote in message 
news:479e1049$0$1082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> measekite wrote:
>> This discussion is a waste of time by posters who do not really know and 
>> sometimes appear like they do not want to know but would rather argue 
>> about this stuff.
>
> Uhhh...you're talking about yourself right?
>
>  If one really want to know then call up Canon and
>> find a support person who has this knowledge and ask them.
>
> Is that what you've been trying to do?
> I wouldn't bother if I were you...Canon already knows that you are a brain 
> dead moron idiot loser.
> Frank


Hey monkeyman!

I thought it was just Vista-loving that made you act like a rabid animal. 
You mean you feel this way about cheap printer cartridges too?

I thought you were so rich, with your successful company, properties in 
Europe, dozens of computers and servers, and all your other fantasies.  You 
need to save a couple of dollars on ink??

ss. 


0
Synapse
1/28/2008 6:45:22 PM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:U4WdneKxv82z_ADanZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@giganews.com...

> As I mentioned in another post in this thread, the print head on the 
> iP4000 and MP780 I have doesn't look like it could print pigment ink along 
> with the dye ink.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer and ends before the 
> dye rows end.  It looks to be physically improbable for the dye jets to 
> lay down ink properly with the pigment jets on the same pass.

As I mentioned before, the firmware knows how large the drops are (typically 
the black drops are 2-5x larger than color, how tall the swath is and what 
the distance is between the nozzles.  When printing in black only it is 
possible to print faster because less passes are required to cover the page. 
When printing mixed black and color the printheads will need to make more 
swaths.  In this case the black may only print every other position (or even 
less) on a given pass, but in the end all the drops will be correctly 
placed.  You can see this effect with a simple experiment - print a simple 
page with mixed black and color, perhaps text on a colored background.  As 
the page is printing grasp the paper and pull it out about an inch or so 
during the swath.  You can then look at the swath and seeboth black and 
color printing in the same swath (but in different positions on the page).

As Richard mentioned in a previous post, inkjet technology is very 
complicated in how it renders prints, even though it appears simple.  For 
most print modes the printhead will pass over a given part of the paper 
perhaps 4 times (twice in each direction), moving slightly in the paper axis 
at the end of each swath.  For photo printing some portion of the printhead 
may pass over a given spot on the paper 32 times in some print modes.  A 
print mask determines which locations are printed with which nozzle on a 
given pass.

The following have some information that may be useful:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0772150.html
http://meweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~msrl/Publication/2001/NIP17_DPMC_IJ_Printer_Kamasak_Bouman.pdf
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HPJ/is_n1_v45/ai_15058440/pg_1
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6688726.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1048475.html



 

0
Bob
1/28/2008 6:56:40 PM
DanG wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:h5-dnVGXraLhiQPanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@giganews.com...
> it.
>> I just printed a partial color page and the black was laid down before any 
>> color which leads me to believe it is the pigment nozzles.  The funny 
>> thing is it wasn't the full width of the pigment nozzles, just a portion. 
>> Roughly 2X the width of the color nozzles.  If it does use the pigment 
>> then not all of the nozzles appear to fire on a given pass of the head.
>>
> 
> 
> Sounds right. If you print plain black text, it'll use all the nozzles. My 
> assumption is that it's configured this way to allow the pigment black a bit 
> of time to dry before the color is laid down. 

I just did another print telling the printer it was printing on photo 
paper.  It didn't do the same print pattern and looked like it was using 
the BCI-6 cartridges only.  There was no lead-in of the black like the 
one on plain paper.  It appears that the pigment does get printed along 
with the color cartridges on plain paper.
0
Michael
1/28/2008 7:37:35 PM
Bob Headrick wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:U4WdneKxv82z_ADanZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@giganews.com...
> 
>> As I mentioned in another post in this thread, the print head on the 
>> iP4000 and MP780 I have doesn't look like it could print pigment ink 
>> along with the dye ink.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer and ends 
>> before the dye rows end.  It looks to be physically improbable for the 
>> dye jets to lay down ink properly with the pigment jets on the same pass.
> 
> As I mentioned before, the firmware knows how large the drops are 
> (typically the black drops are 2-5x larger than color, how tall the 
> swath is and what the distance is between the nozzles.  When printing in 
> black only it is possible to print faster because less passes are 
> required to cover the page. When printing mixed black and color the 
> printheads will need to make more swaths.  In this case the black may 
> only print every other position (or even less) on a given pass, but in 
> the end all the drops will be correctly placed.  You can see this effect 
> with a simple experiment - print a simple page with mixed black and 
> color, perhaps text on a colored background.  As the page is printing 
> grasp the paper and pull it out about an inch or so during the swath.  
> You can then look at the swath and seeboth black and color printing in 
> the same swath (but in different positions on the page).
> 
> As Richard mentioned in a previous post, inkjet technology is very 
> complicated in how it renders prints, even though it appears simple.  
> For most print modes the printhead will pass over a given part of the 
> paper perhaps 4 times (twice in each direction), moving slightly in the 
> paper axis at the end of each swath.  For photo printing some portion of 
> the printhead may pass over a given spot on the paper 32 times in some 
> print modes.  A print mask determines which locations are printed with 
> which nozzle on a given pass.
> 
> The following have some information that may be useful:
> 
> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0772150.html
> http://meweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~msrl/Publication/2001/NIP17_DPMC_IJ_Printer_Kamasak_Bouman.pdf 
> 
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HPJ/is_n1_v45/ai_15058440/pg_1
> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6688726.html
> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1048475.html

I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it looked 
like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page during one 
pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the nozzles, this 
would only be possible if it used only the dye black cartridge.  I'm 
satisfied that when printing color on plain paper the printer uses only 
the pigment black.  On higher resolution paper it appears to use the dye 
black ink.
0
Michael
1/28/2008 7:45:29 PM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:sa6dnRHvL91xswPanZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@giganews.com...
> I just did another print telling the printer it was printing on photo 
> paper.  It didn't do the same print pattern and looked like it was using 
> the BCI-6 cartridges only.  There was no lead-in of the black like the one 
> on plain paper.  It appears that the pigment does get printed along with 
> the color cartridges on plain paper.

Good.  Now if only it did that with duplex printing too.  I'd be happy to 
wait longer for the prints, of only it would print both sides with little 
fuss.  As it stands, it is unlikely that I will ever use duplex printing, 
and I was looking forward to that ability. as I have never had a printer 
that could do this before (and I have had a laser printer in my family since 
the 80's - Canon LPB-8 MkIII).

ss. 


0
Synapse
1/28/2008 7:54:23 PM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...

> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it looked 
> like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page during one 
> pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the nozzles, this would 
> only be possible if it used only the dye black cartridge.

The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down drops 
from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops are larger 
and contained in a different printhead with a different swath size.  This 
happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it if you wish but I have 
said all I care to on the subject.

 - Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
 

0
Bob
1/28/2008 8:49:49 PM
Bob Headrick wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...
> 
>> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
>> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
>> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it 
>> looked like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page 
>> during one pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the 
>> nozzles, this would only be possible if it used only the dye black 
>> cartridge.
> 
> The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down drops 
> from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops are 
> larger and contained in a different printhead with a different swath 
> size.  This happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it if you 
> wish but I have said all I care to on the subject.

All the nozzles used put ink on the page in a given swath but in the 
Canon printers using pigment and dye black, on plain paper, the color is 
laid down on the pigment black in subsequent passes of the head.
0
Michael
1/28/2008 9:02:57 PM
"Synapse Syndrome" <synapse@NOSPAMgomez404.elitemail.org> wrote in message 
news:oeednUkstJhyrwPanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> Good.  Now if only it did that with duplex printing too.  I'd be happy to 
> wait longer for the prints, of only it would print both sides with little 
> fuss.  As it stands, it is unlikely that I will ever use duplex printing, 
> and I was looking forward to that ability. as I have never had a printer 
> that could do this before (and I have had a laser printer in my family 
> since the 80's - Canon LPB-8 MkIII).
>
> ss.
>

Why not use duplex? It's just using different ink. If speed is an issue, use 
draft mode. 


0
DanG
1/28/2008 10:18:29 PM
Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote:
>Bob Headrick wrote:
>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>> news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...
>> 
>>> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
>>> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
>>> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it 
>>> looked like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page 
>>> during one pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the 
>>> nozzles, this would only be possible if it used only the dye black 
>>> cartridge.
>> 
>> The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down drops 
>> from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops are 
>> larger and contained in a different printhead with a different swath 
>> size.  This happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it if you 
>> wish but I have said all I care to on the subject.
>
>All the nozzles used put ink on the page in a given swath but in the 
>Canon printers using pigment and dye black, on plain paper, the color is 
>laid down on the pigment black in subsequent passes of the head.

I seriously doubt this is true, it flies on the face of my understanding of the 
way ink printers work. It also would not be smart design as the industry 
competes for speed as well as quality.

Tony
MS MVP Printing/Imaging

0
Tony
1/29/2008 4:38:05 AM
Tony wrote:
> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote:
>> Bob Headrick wrote:
>>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>>> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
>>>> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
>>>> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it 
>>>> looked like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page 
>>>> during one pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the 
>>>> nozzles, this would only be possible if it used only the dye black 
>>>> cartridge.
>>> The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down drops 
>>> from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops are 
>>> larger and contained in a different printhead with a different swath 
>>> size.  This happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it if you 
>>> wish but I have said all I care to on the subject.
>> All the nozzles used put ink on the page in a given swath but in the 
>> Canon printers using pigment and dye black, on plain paper, the color is 
>> laid down on the pigment black in subsequent passes of the head.
> 
> I seriously doubt this is true, it flies on the face of my understanding of the 
> way ink printers work. It also would not be smart design as the industry 
> competes for speed as well as quality.

Until I did the tests with the MP780 this afternoon I would have said 
the same thing.  Look at a head from this printer and you will see that 
it is more than possible.  Canceling the print command in the middle of 
printing a color picture on plain paper shows a clear black only 
pass(es) followed with the color inks supplied on later passes.  The 
only way this can occur is for the pigment nozzles to lay the pigment 
ink down in a previous pass of the print head before the color nozzles 
reach this point on the page.  It is physically impossible for it to 
happen any other way.
0
Michael
1/29/2008 4:55:29 AM
Inkjet printers are amazingly complex in the way their head nozzles are 
activated.  The drivers can dictate which nozzles will be used for 
specific applications.  My guess is that the pigment head is used in 
it's entirety with black only text printing, but when it is combined 
with color ink, it only uses half of the head nozzles to match the width 
of the color head nozzle configuration.

The drivers control which nozzles are active, how much ink they send, 
how close the dots will be to one another, even the dot patterns used, 
which will differ depending on the paper profile used.

Art



Michael Johnson wrote:

> DanG wrote:
> 
>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>> news:V5KdnWLe9PhM_wDanZ2dnUVZ_t2inZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>>>> Look at the nozzle configuration on the head.  The row for pigment is
>>>
>>> very different than the dye rows.  They physically don't line up.  It 
>>> looks to me that they are designed to work independently from each 
>>> other. It also explains why the ppm rate for black and white is much 
>>> faster than color.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer than the dye 
>>> rows so it lays down a much wider swath of ink on every pass.
>>
>>
>> You can look at the heads all day long. The fact remains that they do, 
>> in fact, print black and color at the same time. If you wish to 
>> demonstrate this to yourself, simply print a page and stop the print 
>> 1/2 way through and inspect it.
> 
> 
> I just printed a partial color page and the black was laid down before 
> any color which leads me to believe it is the pigment nozzles.  The 
> funny thing is it wasn't the full width of the pigment nozzles, just a 
> portion.  Roughly 2X the width of the color nozzles.  If it does use the 
> pigment then not all of the nozzles appear to fire on a given pass of 
> the head.
> 
>> The reason the pigment black head is larger is to produce the faster 
>> times on documents when no color is used.
>>
0
Arthur
1/29/2008 4:59:03 AM
Yeap, that makes complete sense.  Also the black needs to be applied 
first to grab onto the dry paper because pigments don't stick well to 
paper without adhesives in the ink.  They would tend to float on the 
surface of the wet dye inks and move around.  Also, the pigment ink is 
opaque and the color dye inks are transparent.


Art

DanG wrote:

> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:h5-dnVGXraLhiQPanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@giganews.com...
> it.
> 
>>I just printed a partial color page and the black was laid down before any 
>>color which leads me to believe it is the pigment nozzles.  The funny 
>>thing is it wasn't the full width of the pigment nozzles, just a portion. 
>>Roughly 2X the width of the color nozzles.  If it does use the pigment 
>>then not all of the nozzles appear to fire on a given pass of the head.
>>
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds right. If you print plain black text, it'll use all the nozzles. My 
> assumption is that it's configured this way to allow the pigment black a bit 
> of time to dry before the color is laid down. 
> 
> 
0
Arthur
1/29/2008 5:02:34 AM
That makes complete sense.  The black pigment ink used by Canon is 
probably a simpler version than used in current Epson and other pigment 
printers.  These pigment inks do not work well with premium coated 
papers, because they don't stick well to those surfaces without an 
adhesive in the ink. Also the glossy papers need more ink and dry 
slower, and the pigments would end up merging with the dye inks and 
floating on the their surface.

You might want to try using some premium coated paper and trick the 
printer into printing using the plain paper profile.  You'll probably 
find the black ink makes a smeary mess and may rub off even after the 
print dries.

Art

Michael Johnson wrote:

> Bob Headrick wrote:
> 
>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>> news:U4WdneKxv82z_ADanZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>>> As I mentioned in another post in this thread, the print head on the 
>>> iP4000 and MP780 I have doesn't look like it could print pigment ink 
>>> along with the dye ink.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer and ends 
>>> before the dye rows end.  It looks to be physically improbable for 
>>> the dye jets to lay down ink properly with the pigment jets on the 
>>> same pass.
>>
>>
>> As I mentioned before, the firmware knows how large the drops are 
>> (typically the black drops are 2-5x larger than color, how tall the 
>> swath is and what the distance is between the nozzles.  When printing 
>> in black only it is possible to print faster because less passes are 
>> required to cover the page. When printing mixed black and color the 
>> printheads will need to make more swaths.  In this case the black may 
>> only print every other position (or even less) on a given pass, but in 
>> the end all the drops will be correctly placed.  You can see this 
>> effect with a simple experiment - print a simple page with mixed black 
>> and color, perhaps text on a colored background.  As the page is 
>> printing grasp the paper and pull it out about an inch or so during 
>> the swath.  You can then look at the swath and seeboth black and color 
>> printing in the same swath (but in different positions on the page).
>>
>> As Richard mentioned in a previous post, inkjet technology is very 
>> complicated in how it renders prints, even though it appears simple.  
>> For most print modes the printhead will pass over a given part of the 
>> paper perhaps 4 times (twice in each direction), moving slightly in 
>> the paper axis at the end of each swath.  For photo printing some 
>> portion of the printhead may pass over a given spot on the paper 32 
>> times in some print modes.  A print mask determines which locations 
>> are printed with which nozzle on a given pass.
>>
>> The following have some information that may be useful:
>>
>> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0772150.html
>> http://meweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~msrl/Publication/2001/NIP17_DPMC_IJ_Printer_Kamasak_Bouman.pdf 
>>
>> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HPJ/is_n1_v45/ai_15058440/pg_1
>> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6688726.html
>> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1048475.html
> 
> 
> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it looked 
> like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page during one 
> pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the nozzles, this 
> would only be possible if it used only the dye black cartridge.  I'm 
> satisfied that when printing color on plain paper the printer uses only 
> the pigment black.  On higher resolution paper it appears to use the dye 
> black ink.
0
Arthur
1/29/2008 5:11:34 AM
I think you two aren't understanding each other.  I don't think Michael 
is stating anything that contradicts your statement by his own comment 
in this posting.  He is just saying that by watching how the inks are 
being laid down as they are being printed, just in terms of when the ink 
appears on the page relative to the black and color, that the pigment 
ink head couldn't be used, because of how the ink was appearing relative 
to the position of each head.  I assume the dye ink heads are all in one 
clump and the pigment ink head is offset.

I don't think he is arguing with you that the two heads can work 
simultaneously, in fact, he stated in another post that they do so on 
the plain paper profile, just that what he is seeing confirms that with 
the premium coated paper profile, the dye inks only are being used.

If I'm confused, then I apologize, but I think the two of you are not 
expressing mutually exclusive positions.

Art

Bob Headrick wrote:

> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...
> 
>> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
>> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
>> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it 
>> looked like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page 
>> during one pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the 
>> nozzles, this would only be possible if it used only the dye black 
>> cartridge.
> 
> 
> The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down drops 
> from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops are 
> larger and contained in a different printhead with a different swath 
> size.  This happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it if you 
> wish but I have said all I care to on the subject.
> 
> - Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
> 
> 
0
Arthur
1/29/2008 5:19:50 AM
In fairness to Michael, I'm not sure you should jump to conclusions.

If I had a Canon that used the multi ink types, I could confirm this one 
way or another, but what Michael states makes sense in terms of the 
difference in how dye and pigment inks interact with one another, and 
with issues of drying speeds.

Speed is sometime scarified for quality or simple capability of use of 
the materials involved.  Plain paper is rarely used for high quality 
photo images.  In  most cases it is used for black only printing, in 
those cases the full width of the pigment head would be incorporated.

However, when the mixed ink situation occurred, the printer may need to 
use multiple passes to allow the mix of the ink types.

Even Epson ink head that use only one type of ink (just dye or just 
pigment) often have the black head with double the nozzles to speed up 
black only printing.  But in the case so a line which uses some black 
and some colored ink, the head slows down because in this case, the 
color head has half the nozzles.  Once the printer passes the mixed 
colored line, and is printing black only, it speeds up again.  The 
complexity of the drivers and the firmware is truly pretty amazing.

Art

Tony wrote:

> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote:
> 
>>Bob Headrick wrote:
>>
>>>"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>>>news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
>>>>pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
>>>>specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it 
>>>>looked like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page 
>>>>during one pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the 
>>>>nozzles, this would only be possible if it used only the dye black 
>>>>cartridge.
>>>
>>>The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down drops 
>>>from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops are 
>>>larger and contained in a different printhead with a different swath 
>>>size.  This happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it if you 
>>>wish but I have said all I care to on the subject.
>>
>>All the nozzles used put ink on the page in a given swath but in the 
>>Canon printers using pigment and dye black, on plain paper, the color is 
>>laid down on the pigment black in subsequent passes of the head.
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt this is true, it flies on the face of my understanding of the 
> way ink printers work. It also would not be smart design as the industry 
> competes for speed as well as quality.
> 
> Tony
> MS MVP Printing/Imaging
> 
0
Arthur
1/29/2008 5:37:13 AM
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
<br>
Synapse Syndrome wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:e7KdnVSDf9xevwPanZ2dnUVZ8vednZ2d@bt.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">"Frank" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fb@signm.crt">&lt;fb@signm.crt&gt;</a> wrote in message 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:479e1049$0$1082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com">news:479e1049$0$1082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com</a>...
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">measekite wrote:
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">This discussion is a waste of time by posters who do not really know and 
sometimes appear like they do not want to know but would rather argue 
about this stuff.
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
snip<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:e7KdnVSDf9xevwPanZ2dnUVZ8vednZ2d@bt.com"
 type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">dead moron idiot loser.
Frank
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
Oh Yeah<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:e7KdnVSDf9xevwPanZ2dnUVZ8vednZ2d@bt.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

Hey monkeyman!

I thought it was just Vista-loving that made you act like a rabid animal. 
You mean you feel this way about cheap printer cartridges too?

I thought you were so rich, with your successful company, properties in 
Europe, dozens of computers and servers, and all your other fantasies.  You 
need to save a couple of dollars on ink??

ss. 


  </pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
0
measekite
1/29/2008 5:48:59 AM
You are correct.  All the pertinent nozzles (excluding dye black) are 
firing except for the first passes and the last ones for a given page 
and/or image when printing color on plain paper.  This first 1-2 passes 
are laying down pigment black and the last 1-2 passes are laying down 
CYM inks only.

Arthur Entlich wrote:
> I think you two aren't understanding each other.  I don't think Michael 
> is stating anything that contradicts your statement by his own comment 
> in this posting.  He is just saying that by watching how the inks are 
> being laid down as they are being printed, just in terms of when the ink 
> appears on the page relative to the black and color, that the pigment 
> ink head couldn't be used, because of how the ink was appearing relative 
> to the position of each head.  I assume the dye ink heads are all in one 
> clump and the pigment ink head is offset.
> 
> I don't think he is arguing with you that the two heads can work 
> simultaneously, in fact, he stated in another post that they do so on 
> the plain paper profile, just that what he is seeing confirms that with 
> the premium coated paper profile, the dye inks only are being used.
> 
> If I'm confused, then I apologize, but I think the two of you are not 
> expressing mutually exclusive positions.
> 
> Art
> 
> Bob Headrick wrote:
> 
>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>> news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>>> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
>>> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
>>> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it 
>>> looked like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page 
>>> during one pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the 
>>> nozzles, this would only be possible if it used only the dye black 
>>> cartridge.
>>
>>
>> The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down 
>> drops from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops 
>> are larger and contained in a different printhead with a different 
>> swath size.  This happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it 
>> if you wish but I have said all I care to on the subject.
>>
>> - Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
>>
>>
0
Michael
1/29/2008 5:53:30 AM
Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote:
>Tony wrote:
>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote:
>>> Bob Headrick wrote:
>>>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>>> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
>>>>> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
>>>>> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it 
>>>>> looked like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page 
>>>>> during one pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the 
>>>>> nozzles, this would only be possible if it used only the dye black 
>>>>> cartridge.
>>>> The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down drops 
>>>> from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops are 
>>>> larger and contained in a different printhead with a different swath 
>>>> size.  This happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it if you 
>>>> wish but I have said all I care to on the subject.
>>> All the nozzles used put ink on the page in a given swath but in the 
>>> Canon printers using pigment and dye black, on plain paper, the color is 
>>> laid down on the pigment black in subsequent passes of the head.
>> 
>> I seriously doubt this is true, it flies on the face of my understanding of 
>>the 
>> way ink printers work. It also would not be smart design as the industry 
>> competes for speed as well as quality.
>
>Until I did the tests with the MP780 this afternoon I would have said 
>the same thing.  Look at a head from this printer and you will see that 
>it is more than possible.  Canceling the print command in the middle of 
>printing a color picture on plain paper shows a clear black only 
>pass(es) followed with the color inks supplied on later passes.  The 
>only way this can occur is for the pigment nozzles to lay the pigment 
>ink down in a previous pass of the print head before the color nozzles 
>reach this point on the page.  It is physically impossible for it to 
>happen any other way.

Well, you and Art have fired my interest. I will see if I can do some 
investigation of my own, it is quite an intriguing matter albeit probably of 
little practical importance. Maybe I'm hooked, I will come back here if I 
discover anything of note.
Thanks
Tony
0
Tony
1/29/2008 6:13:56 AM
Tony wrote:
> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote:
>> Tony wrote:
>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote:
>>>> Bob Headrick wrote:
>>>>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:yYqdnUbML8ZYrQPanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just performed the tests that Dan mentioned and they do show that 
>>>>>> pigment black is used when printing color on plain paper.  When I 
>>>>>> specified photo paper the black lead-in ink wasn't present and it 
>>>>>> looked like all the colors (including black) were laid on the page 
>>>>>> during one pass of the head.  Because of the configuration of the 
>>>>>> nozzles, this would only be possible if it used only the dye black 
>>>>>> cartridge.
>>>>> The last statement is just not true.  Printers can and do lay down drops 
>>>>> from black and color in the same swath, even if the black drops are 
>>>>> larger and contained in a different printhead with a different swath 
>>>>> size.  This happens to be the absolute truth, you can doubt it if you 
>>>>> wish but I have said all I care to on the subject.
>>>> All the nozzles used put ink on the page in a given swath but in the 
>>>> Canon printers using pigment and dye black, on plain paper, the color is 
>>>> laid down on the pigment black in subsequent passes of the head.
>>> I seriously doubt this is true, it flies on the face of my understanding of 
>>> the 
>>> way ink printers work. It also would not be smart design as the industry 
>>> competes for speed as well as quality.
>> Until I did the tests with the MP780 this afternoon I would have said 
>> the same thing.  Look at a head from this printer and you will see that 
>> it is more than possible.  Canceling the print command in the middle of 
>> printing a color picture on plain paper shows a clear black only 
>> pass(es) followed with the color inks supplied on later passes.  The 
>> only way this can occur is for the pigment nozzles to lay the pigment 
>> ink down in a previous pass of the print head before the color nozzles 
>> reach this point on the page.  It is physically impossible for it to 
>> happen any other way.
> 
> Well, you and Art have fired my interest. I will see if I can do some 
> investigation of my own, it is quite an intriguing matter albeit probably of 
> little practical importance. Maybe I'm hooked, I will come back here if I 
> discover anything of note.
> Thanks

Maybe the print heads on other printers are different but I suspect any 
printer using both the BCI-3 and BCI-6 black tanks operate the same way.
0
Michael
1/29/2008 4:26:46 PM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:x6SdnSkI-r1ZzgLanZ2dnUVZ_sLinZ2d@giganews.com...
> Maybe the print heads on other printers are different but I suspect any 
> printer using both the BCI-3 and BCI-6 black tanks operate the same way.

They all do, as well as the newer ones with the "5/8" inks. It's one of the 
things that makes Canon unique, and is the basis of the feature of having 
the large pigment black tank in the first place. Saves money on black ink 
too, and the large pigment-only black head makes document printing much 
faster. 


0
DanG
1/29/2008 5:02:10 PM
Michael Johnson wrote:
> Bob Headrick wrote:
>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>> news:deCdnd2HoIYUpQDanZ2dnUVZ_rKtnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>>> The configuration of the jets in the head are different for the 
>>> pigment black than the other dye cartridges.  For this reason I don't 
>>> see how the pigment jets can work with the dye jets to lay down the 
>>> ink with enough precision.  They are physically different and located 
>>> apart from each other.
>>
>> That is not an issue, as the printer "knows" how far apart the various 
>> nozzles are, as well as the nominal sizes of the ink drops.  The 
>> clever printer firmware can handle properly placing inks from 
>> different printheads in the proper locations on the paper.
> 
> The pigment row of jets is physically longer then the dye rows.  It is 
> actually 2-3 times longer and doesn't line up with the dye rows evenly. 
>  This would mean only a small part of the row of pigment jets would fire 
> when printing with the other dye rows on the same pass.  The jet 
> configuration in the head seems to indicate to me that the pigment jets 
> work by themselves and the dye jets work only with each other.  Add to 
> this the inks are different makeups and the pigment jets max out at 600 
> dpi while the dye jets max out at 1,200-4,800 dpi and I don't see how 
> they can work together.  Anyone have any links to webs sites that 
> confirms this one way or the other?

Michael, you must be somewhat new to the group.  You are disagreeing 
with the wrong person.  Bob was a long time Eng for HP at their inkjet 
printhead div.  Unless you have equal credentials, you arguing with the 
wrong person IMO.

Mickey
0
Mickey
1/29/2008 5:10:32 PM
Mickey wrote:
> Michael Johnson wrote:
>> Bob Headrick wrote:
>>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:deCdnd2HoIYUpQDanZ2dnUVZ_rKtnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>>> The configuration of the jets in the head are different for the 
>>>> pigment black than the other dye cartridges.  For this reason I 
>>>> don't see how the pigment jets can work with the dye jets to lay 
>>>> down the ink with enough precision.  They are physically different 
>>>> and located apart from each other.
>>>
>>> That is not an issue, as the printer "knows" how far apart the 
>>> various nozzles are, as well as the nominal sizes of the ink drops.  
>>> The clever printer firmware can handle properly placing inks from 
>>> different printheads in the proper locations on the paper.
>>
>> The pigment row of jets is physically longer then the dye rows.  It is 
>> actually 2-3 times longer and doesn't line up with the dye rows 
>> evenly.  This would mean only a small part of the row of pigment jets 
>> would fire when printing with the other dye rows on the same pass.  
>> The jet configuration in the head seems to indicate to me that the 
>> pigment jets work by themselves and the dye jets work only with each 
>> other.  Add to this the inks are different makeups and the pigment 
>> jets max out at 600 dpi while the dye jets max out at 1,200-4,800 dpi 
>> and I don't see how they can work together.  Anyone have any links to 
>> webs sites that confirms this one way or the other?
> 
> Michael, you must be somewhat new to the group.  You are disagreeing 
> with the wrong person.  Bob was a long time Eng for HP at their inkjet 
> printhead div.  Unless you have equal credentials, you arguing with the 
> wrong person IMO.

I'm not new to the group.  Read further in this thread and you'll see my 
final conclusions on the issue.
0
Michael
1/29/2008 5:25:04 PM
Mickey,

Although Michael and Bob were not in agreement at this point in the 
thread, later in it, some tests done by Michael resolved this question, 
but his explanation was misinterpreted, which further escalated
the "discussion"...  I have tried to intervene via a posting to explain 
that the ultimate conclusions both Michael and Bob came to were actually 
supportive of one another, and that there is no disagreement between 
their last statements.

Art


Mickey wrote:
> Michael Johnson wrote:
> 
>> Bob Headrick wrote:
>>
>>> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:deCdnd2HoIYUpQDanZ2dnUVZ_rKtnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>>> The configuration of the jets in the head are different for the 
>>>> pigment black than the other dye cartridges.  For this reason I 
>>>> don't see how the pigment jets can work with the dye jets to lay 
>>>> down the ink with enough precision.  They are physically different 
>>>> and located apart from each other.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is not an issue, as the printer "knows" how far apart the 
>>> various nozzles are, as well as the nominal sizes of the ink drops.  
>>> The clever printer firmware can handle properly placing inks from 
>>> different printheads in the proper locations on the paper.
>>
>>
>> The pigment row of jets is physically longer then the dye rows.  It is 
>> actually 2-3 times longer and doesn't line up with the dye rows 
>> evenly.  This would mean only a small part of the row of pigment jets 
>> would fire when printing with the other dye rows on the same pass.  
>> The jet configuration in the head seems to indicate to me that the 
>> pigment jets work by themselves and the dye jets work only with each 
>> other.  Add to this the inks are different makeups and the pigment 
>> jets max out at 600 dpi while the dye jets max out at 1,200-4,800 dpi 
>> and I don't see how they can work together.  Anyone have any links to 
>> webs sites that confirms this one way or the other?
> 
> 
> Michael, you must be somewhat new to the group.  You are disagreeing 
> with the wrong person.  Bob was a long time Eng for HP at their inkjet 
> printhead div.  Unless you have equal credentials, you arguing with the 
> wrong person IMO.
> 
> Mickey
0
Arthur
1/30/2008 1:57:44 AM
TJ wrote:
> Michael Johnson wrote:
>> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>>> Good information to know,  Thanks.
>>>
>>> Does the black pigment ink work properly with non-plain papers?
>>
>> I haven't tricked the printer into thinking it was printing on plain 
>> paper while feeding it photo type paper.  If I remember I'll try it 
>> tomorrow.
>>
>>> I know on some older pigment ink  Epson printers, the black ink would 
>>> (the C80 for instance) not adhere to the original photo quality gloss 
>>> papers (it would not normally be used by the printer, but you could 
>>> "trick" it by using the plain paper driver and placing a glossy page 
>>> in.)
>>>
>>> The ink was designed to dry very rapidly, so it lacked the resins 
>>> required to adhere the ink to the glossy papers.  The newer 
>>> formulations (for Epson pigment printers) added the resin to the 
>>> black ink, and they also released a specially surfaced paper for the 
>>> C80 which would allow the black ink to integrate into the surface.
>>
>> As I mentioned in another post in this thread, the print head on the 
>> iP4000 and MP780 I have doesn't look like it could print pigment ink 
>> along with the dye ink.  The pigment row is 2-3 times longer and ends 
>> before the dye rows end.  It looks to be physically improbable for the 
>> dye jets to lay down ink properly with the pigment jets on the same pass.
>>
> So is there any reason it couldn't print the colors when going one way 
> and pigment black on the way back? Just wondering...

The pigment nozzles don't line up completely with the dye ones.  Also, 
the pigment nozzles are placed above the dye nozzles on the head so when 
they are used they have to fire first and this can't happen so the black 
and color are laid down on the same band on the same pass of the head. 
After the first 1-2 passes of the head the CYM and pigment nozzles are 
all firing until the last 1-2 passes in which only the CYM nozzles fire. 
  It looks to me that the pigment black is put in the page 1-2 passes 
before the color is applied in the same spot on the page.  This is only 
for printing color on plain paper.  For photo paper the dye black is 
used and all colors are applied for a given part of page on the same pass.
0
Michael
1/30/2008 1:14:24 PM
"TJ" <TJ@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:479ddb58$0$25994$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> Furthermore, even when printing plain black text, unless I specifically 
> tell the printer to use the black cart only, a small amount of the 
> tricolor ink will be used, I guess to "enhance" the blackness. At least 
> this is true when printing from the Linux version of OpenOffice.

In printing, it's called Rich Black.

When I was doing my architecture degree, I got my presentation panels done 
in Adobe Illustrator, going a bit overboard, using Registration Black as a 
solid background instead.  I used up loads of ink on the plotter, and got 
very soggy messy panels.

ss. 


0
Synapse
1/30/2008 2:53:07 PM
"DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
news:uO-dnTko9LYtyQPanZ2dnUVZ_sGvnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> Good.  Now if only it did that with duplex printing too.  I'd be happy to 
>> wait longer for the prints, of only it would print both sides with little 
>> fuss.  As it stands, it is unlikely that I will ever use duplex printing, 
>> and I was looking forward to that ability. as I have never had a printer 
>> that could do this before (and I have had a laser printer in my family 
>> since the 80's - Canon LPB-8 MkIII).
>>
> Why not use duplex? It's just using different ink. If speed is an issue, 
> use draft mode.


Well, it's just not as suitable as the pigment ink, and more expensive to 
use like that, but yes, it's not a big deal really.  I actually think duplex 
printing is slower than normal printing.

ss. 


0
Synapse
1/30/2008 2:58:06 PM
Synapse Syndrome wrote:
> "DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
> news:uO-dnTko9LYtyQPanZ2dnUVZ_sGvnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> Good.  Now if only it did that with duplex printing too.  I'd be happy to 
>>> wait longer for the prints, of only it would print both sides with little 
>>> fuss.  As it stands, it is unlikely that I will ever use duplex printing, 
>>> and I was looking forward to that ability. as I have never had a printer 
>>> that could do this before (and I have had a laser printer in my family 
>>> since the 80's - Canon LPB-8 MkIII).
>>>
>> Why not use duplex? It's just using different ink. If speed is an issue, 
>> use draft mode.
> 
> 
> Well, it's just not as suitable as the pigment ink, and more expensive to 
> use like that, but yes, it's not a big deal really.  I actually think duplex 
> printing is slower than normal printing.

Duplex printing is a lot slower than normal printing.  The only reason 
to duplex print, IMO, is to save paper but then you have to figure in 
the added ink costs if you use OEM cartridges.  The BCI-3 black is about 
twice the capacity of BCI-6 black for about the same cost per cartridge.
0
Michael
1/30/2008 6:19:45 PM
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
<br>
Synapse Syndrome wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:xMudnTMgIocdDT3anZ2dnUVZ8hidnZ2d@bt.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">"DanG" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nospam@q.com">&lt;nospam@q.com&gt;</a> wrote in message 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:uO-dnTko9LYtyQPanZ2dnUVZ_sGvnZ2d@comcast.com">news:uO-dnTko9LYtyQPanZ2dnUVZ_sGvnZ2d@comcast.com</a>...
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Good.  Now if only it did that with duplex printing too.  I'd be happy to 
wait longer for the prints, of only it would print both sides with little 
fuss.  As it stands, it is unlikely that I will ever use duplex printing, 
and I was looking forward to that ability. as I have never had a printer 
that could do this before (and I have had a laser printer in my family 
since the 80's - Canon LPB-8 MkIII).

      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">Why not use duplex? It's just using different ink. If speed is an issue, 
use draft mode.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

Well, it's just not as suitable as the pigment ink, and more expensive to 
use like that, but yes, it's not a big deal really.  I actually think duplex 
printing is slower than normal printing.

ss. 

  </pre>
</blockquote>
Even when slower it can be faster.&nbsp; Press the print button and go eat
lunch.&nbsp; Who cares if it is slower or faster.&nbsp; It is printed when you
get back for lunch.<br>
<br>
Also if you are printed a web page that 1 page can equate to multiple
printed pages.&nbsp; It is cheaper and more convenient to turn duplex on and
just do something else until it is completed.<br>
</body>
</html>
0
measekite
1/30/2008 7:46:35 PM

Michael Johnson wrote:
> Synapse Syndrome wrote:
>> "DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message 
>> news:uO-dnTko9LYtyQPanZ2dnUVZ_sGvnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>> Good.  Now if only it did that with duplex printing too.  I'd be 
>>>> happy to wait longer for the prints, of only it would print both 
>>>> sides with little fuss.  As it stands, it is unlikely that I will 
>>>> ever use duplex printing, and I was looking forward to that 
>>>> ability. as I have never had a printer that could do this before 
>>>> (and I have had a laser printer in my family since the 80's - Canon 
>>>> LPB-8 MkIII).
>>>>
>>> Why not use duplex? It's just using different ink. If speed is an 
>>> issue, use draft mode.
>>
>>
>> Well, it's just not as suitable as the pigment ink, and more 
>> expensive to use like that, but yes, it's not a big deal really.  I 
>> actually think duplex printing is slower than normal printing.
>
> Duplex printing is a lot slower than normal printing.
No it is not.  See my other post.
>   The only reason to duplex print, IMO, is to save paper
It is more convenient and better to print web pages
> but then you have to figure in the added ink costs if you use OEM 
> cartridges.  The BCI-3 black is about twice the capacity of BCI-6 
> black for about the same cost per cartridge.
It costs more.
0
measekite
1/30/2008 7:47:59 PM
Synapse Syndrome wrote:

> "Frank" <fb@signm.crt> wrote in message 
> news:479e1049$0$1082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> 
>>measekite wrote:
>>
>>>This discussion is a waste of time by posters who do not really know and 
>>>sometimes appear like they do not want to know but would rather argue 
>>>about this stuff.
>>
>>Uhhh...you're talking about yourself right?
>>
>> If one really want to know then call up Canon and
>>
>>>find a support person who has this knowledge and ask them.
>>
>>Is that what you've been trying to do?
>>I wouldn't bother if I were you...Canon already knows that you are a brain 
>>dead moron idiot loser.
>>Frank
> 
> 
> 
> Hey monkeyman!
> 
> I thought it was just Vista-loving that made you act like a rabid animal. 

I deal with all asshole using the same brush.
Why?

> You mean you feel this way about cheap printer cartridges too?

Cheap? Or do you mean inexpensive?
> 
> I thought you were so rich,

I have made a very comfortable living for myself, why? Does that bother you?

  with your successful company,

Yes, I've been blessed with success over the yrs.

  properties in
> Europe, 

Well, I've been trying to sell the condo at the Le Grand Motte for 
months now and I finally have two prospective buyers!
I never plan to sell the Paris apartment or the house in Louviers. Proly 
retire to Paris.
Does that bother you?

dozens of computers and servers,

Hummm...no not dozens...not hardly. I have 3 computers including a WHS 
(server) at home and 12 + server at the office.
Does that bother you?

  and all your other fantasies.

What would those be pray tell?

   You
> need to save a couple of dollars on ink??

I'm not stupid nor wasteful and I like controlling my hardware and 
essentials.
Does that bother you? You do come off as a real know-it-all!
If these things really bother you all that much suggest you proly need 
some therapy.
Frank
0
Frank
1/30/2008 11:11:33 PM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:sa6dnRHvL91xswPanZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@giganews.com...

> I just did another print telling the printer it was printing on photo 
> paper.  It didn't do the same print pattern and looked like it was using 
> the BCI-6 cartridges only.  There was no lead-in of the black like the one 
> on plain paper.  It appears that the pigment does get printed along with 
> the color cartridges on plain paper.


I printed an RMA email from Google Mail, to pack with a failed Tagan PSU, 
which printed with the usual colour logo and some of the text was blue, as 
it was sent from Outlook.  While most of the text was in black, it could be 
smudged with a damp finger.  So it appears that the pigment ink was not used 
afterall.

ss. 


0
Synapse
2/7/2008 6:17:15 PM
Which Canon printer is being discussed at this point, I have sort of 
lost track, and what paper type was used and what was selected in the 
driver options?

Also how did you check for smearing.  Did you dip it in water or use 
some saliva and rub?

Art

Synapse Syndrome wrote:

> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:sa6dnRHvL91xswPanZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@giganews.com...
> 
> 
>>I just did another print telling the printer it was printing on photo 
>>paper.  It didn't do the same print pattern and looked like it was using 
>>the BCI-6 cartridges only.  There was no lead-in of the black like the one 
>>on plain paper.  It appears that the pigment does get printed along with 
>>the color cartridges on plain paper.
> 
> 
> 
> I printed an RMA email from Google Mail, to pack with a failed Tagan PSU, 
> which printed with the usual colour logo and some of the text was blue, as 
> it was sent from Outlook.  While most of the text was in black, it could be 
> smudged with a damp finger.  So it appears that the pigment ink was not used 
> afterall.
> 
> ss. 
> 
> 
0
Arthur
2/8/2008 11:14:07 AM
"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message 
news:3QWqj.5962$FA.4307@pd7urf2no...
> Which Canon printer is being discussed at this point, I have sort of lost 
> track, and what paper type was used and what was selected in the driver 
> options?

It is a Canon iP4500, with plain copy paper.  Plain Paper was selected in 
the driver options.

> Also how did you check for smearing.  Did you dip it in water or use some 
> saliva and rub?

Yes, I just used a bit of saliva I think.  What I printed was an email from 
the Google Mail web interface, using IE7.

I was disappointed to find that the dye based ink appeared to have been 
used.

ss. 


0
Synapse
2/8/2008 5:15:45 PM
Synapse Syndrome wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:sa6dnRHvL91xswPanZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@giganews.com...
> 
>> I just did another print telling the printer it was printing on photo 
>> paper.  It didn't do the same print pattern and looked like it was using 
>> the BCI-6 cartridges only.  There was no lead-in of the black like the one 
>> on plain paper.  It appears that the pigment does get printed along with 
>> the color cartridges on plain paper.
> 
> 
> I printed an RMA email from Google Mail, to pack with a failed Tagan PSU, 
> which printed with the usual colour logo and some of the text was blue, as 
> it was sent from Outlook.  While most of the text was in black, it could be 
> smudged with a damp finger.  So it appears that the pigment ink was not used 
> afterall.

My results were showing that when specifying plain paper the pigment ink 
is used exclusively whether printing color of B&W.  You need to also 
look at how the black ink is put on the page relative to the color inks.

Here is a photo of a canceled color print session where plain paper was 
specified: 
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/MikeJ9116/Misc%20Shots/DSC07651.jpg

Here is the same with photo paper specified: 
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/MikeJ9116/Misc%20Shots/DSC07652.jpg

The first clearly shows the pigment nozzles were used for the black and 
the second shows the dye nozzles were used for black.  This has to be 
the case because of the way the pigment and dye nozzles are arranged on 
the print head.  I can't say what happens for duplex printing as I 
haven't tried that setting.
0
Michael
2/8/2008 5:54:13 PM
"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
news:QY2dnXIpHO-hCjHanZ2dnUVZ_siknZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>>> I just did another print telling the printer it was printing on photo 
>>> paper.  It didn't do the same print pattern and looked like it was using 
>>> the BCI-6 cartridges only.  There was no lead-in of the black like the 
>>> one on plain paper.  It appears that the pigment does get printed along 
>>> with the color cartridges on plain paper.
>>
>>
>> I printed an RMA email from Google Mail, to pack with a failed Tagan PSU, 
>> which printed with the usual colour logo and some of the text was blue, 
>> as it was sent from Outlook.  While most of the text was in black, it 
>> could be smudged with a damp finger.  So it appears that the pigment ink 
>> was not used afterall.
>
> My results were showing that when specifying plain paper the pigment ink 
> is used exclusively whether printing color of B&W.  You need to also look 
> at how the black ink is put on the page relative to the color inks.
>
> Here is a photo of a canceled color print session where plain paper was 
> specified: 
> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/MikeJ9116/Misc%20Shots/DSC07651.jpg
>
> Here is the same with photo paper specified: 
> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/MikeJ9116/Misc%20Shots/DSC07652.jpg
>
> The first clearly shows the pigment nozzles were used for the black and 
> the second shows the dye nozzles were used for black.  This has to be the 
> case because of the way the pigment and dye nozzles are arranged on the 
> print head.  I can't say what happens for duplex printing as I haven't 
> tried that setting.

Do you think that my page was actually printed with pigment ink then, and 
pigment ink does smudge with a wet finger?

ss. 


0
Synapse
2/8/2008 6:17:00 PM
Synapse Syndrome wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:QY2dnXIpHO-hCjHanZ2dnUVZ_siknZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> I just did another print telling the printer it was printing on photo 
>>>> paper.  It didn't do the same print pattern and looked like it was using 
>>>> the BCI-6 cartridges only.  There was no lead-in of the black like the 
>>>> one on plain paper.  It appears that the pigment does get printed along 
>>>> with the color cartridges on plain paper.
>>>
>>> I printed an RMA email from Google Mail, to pack with a failed Tagan PSU, 
>>> which printed with the usual colour logo and some of the text was blue, 
>>> as it was sent from Outlook.  While most of the text was in black, it 
>>> could be smudged with a damp finger.  So it appears that the pigment ink 
>>> was not used afterall.
>> My results were showing that when specifying plain paper the pigment ink 
>> is used exclusively whether printing color of B&W.  You need to also look 
>> at how the black ink is put on the page relative to the color inks.
>>
>> Here is a photo of a canceled color print session where plain paper was 
>> specified: 
>> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/MikeJ9116/Misc%20Shots/DSC07651.jpg
>>
>> Here is the same with photo paper specified: 
>> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/MikeJ9116/Misc%20Shots/DSC07652.jpg
>>
>> The first clearly shows the pigment nozzles were used for the black and 
>> the second shows the dye nozzles were used for black.  This has to be the 
>> case because of the way the pigment and dye nozzles are arranged on the 
>> print head.  I can't say what happens for duplex printing as I haven't 
>> tried that setting.
> 
> Do you think that my page was actually printed with pigment ink then, and 
> pigment ink does smudge with a wet finger?

 From what I have seen, anything (with the possible exception of duplex) 
printed specifying the "plain paper" setting used the pigment black ink 
and specifying a high resolution paper (i.e. photo paper etc.) used the 
dye black.  I can't say much regarding the smear test.
0
Michael
2/8/2008 6:43:02 PM
I would not base your conclusion on the test you ran.

Saliva and rubbing may smear pigment ink, especially if not fully dry. 
Try immersing a well dried part in water and see if it runs, gets much 
lighter, etc.

Also, if you are not using OEM Canon ink, the ink in your black pigment 
cartridge may not be pigment.  In general, pigment inks are more costly 
to manufacturer than dye colorant, so dyes may be substituted in 3rd 
party versions, especially cheap versions.

Art


Synapse Syndrome wrote:

> "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message 
> news:3QWqj.5962$FA.4307@pd7urf2no...
> 
>>Which Canon printer is being discussed at this point, I have sort of lost 
>>track, and what paper type was used and what was selected in the driver 
>>options?
> 
> 
> It is a Canon iP4500, with plain copy paper.  Plain Paper was selected in 
> the driver options.
> 
> 
>>Also how did you check for smearing.  Did you dip it in water or use some 
>>saliva and rub?
> 
> 
> Yes, I just used a bit of saliva I think.  What I printed was an email from 
> the Google Mail web interface, using IE7.
> 
> I was disappointed to find that the dye based ink appeared to have been 
> used.
> 
> ss. 
> 
> 
0
Arthur
2/9/2008 11:02:48 AM
Yes, it is possible it smeared due to the nature of your test, or if the 
ink was not pigment, although it should have been pigment by Canon's 
spec, or it was not fully dry.

Art

Synapse Syndrome wrote:

> "Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message 
> news:QY2dnXIpHO-hCjHanZ2dnUVZ_siknZ2d@giganews.com...
> 
>>>>I just did another print telling the printer it was printing on photo 
>>>>paper.  It didn't do the same print pattern and looked like it was using 
>>>>the BCI-6 cartridges only.  There was no lead-in of the black like the 
>>>>one on plain paper.  It appears that the pigment does get printed along 
>>>>with the color cartridges on plain paper.
>>>
>>>
>>>I printed an RMA email from Google Mail, to pack with a failed Tagan PSU, 
>>>which printed with the usual colour logo and some of the text was blue, 
>>>as it was sent from Outlook.  While most of the text was in black, it 
>>>could be smudged with a damp finger.  So it appears that the pigment ink 
>>>was not used afterall.
>>
>>My results were showing that when specifying plain paper the pigment ink 
>>is used exclusively whether printing color of B&W.  You need to also look 
>>at how the black ink is put on the page relative to the color inks.
>>
>>Here is a photo of a canceled color print session where plain paper was 
>>specified: 
>>http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/MikeJ9116/Misc%20Shots/DSC07651.jpg
>>
>>Here is the same with photo paper specified: 
>>http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/MikeJ9116/Misc%20Shots/DSC07652.jpg
>>
>>The first clearly shows the pigment nozzles were used for the black and 
>>the second shows the dye nozzles were used for black.  This has to be the 
>>case because of the way the pigment and dye nozzles are arranged on the 
>>print head.  I can't say what happens for duplex printing as I haven't 
>>tried that setting.
> 
> 
> Do you think that my page was actually printed with pigment ink then, and 
> pigment ink does smudge with a wet finger?
> 
> ss. 
> 
> 
0
Arthur
2/9/2008 11:04:24 AM
Reply:

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