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Start request unit failed

Hi Guys,

Please help.

I am new to SCSI's. I have recently got myself an old server its an
Acer Altos 1100e. I have 5 hot swap SCSI drives in there, 1 x Ultra2
SCSI 18.2 Gb and 4 x Ultra3 SCSI 9.2Gb all running at 10K rpm. There is
an Adaptec AHA-950u2b SCSI interface card. Running with 256 RAM and
Pentium III 800Mhz CPU.


When I first installed the 4 x 9.2Gb drives I used to get "Start
Request Unit Failed" on one of the drives and a week or two later I
started to get the same message for the 18.2Gb drive. When you take the
drives out you can still feel them spinning.

Can someone please explain what "start request unit failed" means and
how can I resolve this? Is it anything to do with termanination of the
SCSI cables? Or are the drives now dead?

Any help would be appriciated. I can provide more information if you
require it. Thanking you guys in advance.

0
12/18/2006 11:25:07 PM
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<pritesh123@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1166484307.843630.131810@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> Hi Guys,
>
> Please help.
>
>
> When I first installed the 4 x 9.2Gb drives I used to get "Start
> Request Unit Failed" on one of the drives and a week or two later I
> started to get the same message for the 18.2Gb drive. When you take the
> drives out you can still feel them spinning.
>
> Can someone please explain what "start request unit failed" means and
> how can I resolve this? Is it anything to do with termanination of the
> SCSI cables? Or are the drives now dead?
>

When drives receive a Start Unit command they spin up (if they aren't spun 
up already), and then try to become ready. If there's a problem with the 
drive heads or electronics, the drive may be spinning up, but still be 
unable to get ready. Get a decent diagnostics program or try the built-in 
"Verify" function in the Adaptec BIOS.

Rob


0
Rob
12/19/2006 10:41:54 AM
pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> I am new to SCSI's. I have recently got myself an old server its an
> Acer Altos 1100e. I have 5 hot swap SCSI drives in there, 1 x Ultra2
> SCSI 18.2 Gb and 4 x Ultra3 SCSI 9.2Gb all running at 10K rpm. There is
> an Adaptec AHA-950u2b SCSI interface card. Running with 256 RAM and
> Pentium III 800Mhz CPU.

The Acer page:
http://www.acersupport.com/ess/html/1100e_specs.html
specify an "Adaptec Dual Channel Ultra2 SCSI PCI controller".
An AHA-950 seems to no exist. There is an AHA-F950, but that is a Fiber
Channel hostadapter. You probably have an AHA-3950U2.

> When I first installed the 4 x 9.2Gb drives I used to get "Start
> Request Unit Failed" on one of the drives and a week or two later I
> started to get the same message for the 18.2Gb drive. When you take the
> drives out you can still feel them spinning.

You should not (re)move a spinning disk because the mechanical shocks
can damage it.

> Can someone please explain what "start request unit failed" means and
> how can I resolve this?

"START STOP UNIT" is a SCSI command that can be used by the host to
switch the spindle motor on and off. This message can mean that the
command itself failed or (more likely if the drive is spinning) that the
drive is still not ready after the command as the host expects.

> Is it anything to do with termanination of the
> SCSI cables?

If the other disks on the same bus work: No.

> Or are the drives now dead?

Maybe. You can try to test the disks with the Adaptec setup tool that
can be startet with Ctrl-A at boot time.


Micha
0
Michael
12/19/2006 11:14:30 AM
Rob -  can you suggest any good diagnostics programs for the SCSI
drives.

Michael - Sorry it was my type the SCSI incterface card I have is
AHA-3950U2B. I can not find much support for this interface card but
there is some support for the AHA-3950U2 interface card. I will try the
disk tools in the SCSI Bios and give you feedback into what it says. I
did this once and I got a message with codes which I didnt understand
but I will post them once I get it.

0
pritesh123
12/19/2006 2:44:41 PM
Rob -  can you suggest any good diagnostics programs for the SCSI
drives.

Michael - Sorry it was my typo the SCSI incterface card I have is
AHA-3950U2B. I can not find much support for this interface card but
there is some support for the AHA-3950U2 interface card. I will try the
disk tools in the SCSI Bios and give you feedback into what it says. I
did this once and I got a message with codes which I didnt understand
but I will post them once I get it.

0
pritesh123
12/19/2006 2:44:59 PM
"Michael Baeuerle" <michael.baeuerle@stz-e.de> wrote in message news:q5uk54-4gd.ln1@micha.freeshell.org
> pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > I am new to SCSI's. I have recently got myself an old server its an
> > Acer Altos 1100e. I have 5 hot swap SCSI drives in there, 1 x Ultra2
> > SCSI 18.2 Gb and 4 x Ultra3 SCSI 9.2Gb all running at 10K rpm. There is
> > an Adaptec AHA-950u2b SCSI interface card. Running with 256 RAM and
> > Pentium III 800Mhz CPU.
> 
> The Acer page:
> http://www.acersupport.com/ess/html/1100e_specs.html
> specify an "Adaptec Dual Channel Ultra2 SCSI PCI controller".
> An AHA-950 seems to no exist. There is an AHA-F950, but that is a Fiber
> Channel hostadapter. 

> You probably have an AHA-3950U2.

There does exist an AHA-3950U2B.

> 
> > When I first installed the 4 x 9.2Gb drives I used to get "Start
> > Request Unit Failed" on one of the drives and a week or two later I
> > started to get the same message for the 18.2Gb drive. When you take the
> > drives out you can still feel them spinning.
> 
> You should not (re)move a spinning disk because the mechanical shocks
> can damage it.

Flying heads may well survive shocks better than stationary.

> 
> > Can someone please explain what "start request unit failed" means and
> > how can I resolve this?

> "START STOP UNIT" is a SCSI command that can be used by the host to
> switch the spindle motor on and off. 

Not entirely.

> This message can mean that the command itself failed 

That's what it means.

> or (more likely if the drive is spinning) that the
> drive is still not ready after the command as the host expects.

Which is reported in the failure of Start Unit.

> 
> > Is it anything to do with termanination of the SCSI cables?

"Start Unit Request Failed" indirectly comes from the drive 
itself, in it reporting a failure to the Start Unit request.

> 
> If the other disks on the same bus work: No.

So no, obviously has nothing to do with other disks working or not.

> 
> > Or are the drives now dead?

> Maybe. 

Almost definetely, unless it can be attributed to weak Power.
Since he says the drives are spinning that doesn't appear to 
be the case.

> You can try to test the disks with the Adaptec setup tool that
> can be startet with Ctrl-A at boot time.

Fat lot of good will that do you if the drive reports "Start Unit 
Request Failed". That's what it will report again. 
The sense data that will be accompanied may be interesting though.

> 
> 
> Micha
0
Folkert
12/19/2006 2:55:07 PM
Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> 
> Michael Baeuerle wrote:
> > 
> > pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > > 
> > [...]
> > You probably have an AHA-3950U2.
> 
> There does exist an AHA-3950U2B.

Hmm, I cannot find it. Adaptec lists only the 3950U2 on their INet
pages. If the "B" means the same as in the past, it should be simply a
revised version of the 3950U2.

> > > When I first installed the 4 x 9.2Gb drives I used to get "Start
> > > Request Unit Failed" on one of the drives and a week or two later I
> > > started to get the same message for the 18.2Gb drive. When you take the
> > > drives out you can still feel them spinning.
> >
> > You should not (re)move a spinning disk because the mechanical shocks
> > can damage it.
> 
> Flying heads may well survive shocks better than stationary.

I disagree. If a disk spins, the heads are not parked (but the disk will
park them as soon as the power supply become disconnected). In other
words: The disk will park the heads at the same time as it is
mechanically moved - this is the worst case. If the acceleration is
outside the limits and the heads touch the surface, it can be damaged
over many cylinders. If the disk does not spin, the heads are parked and
already touch the surface (of the landing zone) [1]. This zone contains
no data and cannot be damaged easily. The specifications of some Seagate
disks that I have checked matches this ...

Example Seagate "Cheetah 18LP" (ST318203L):
---------------------------------------------------
SHOCK (G's, 11/2/.5 ms):
   operating (Read/Write) __________5
   abnormal ________________________10
   nonoperating ____________________75/200/100
---------------------------------------------------
The OP use disks of this category. The allowed acceleration is approx.
10times higher in nonoperating mode.

The limits for actual "Laptop" drives are much higher. Example Seagate
"Momentus 5400.3" (ST9160821A):
---------------------------------------------------
SHOCK (G's):
   operating (2 ms)_________________350
   abnormal ________________________
   nonoperating (2/1/.5 ms) ________800/900/400 
---------------------------------------------------
The allowed acceleration is again higher in nonoperating mode.

> > > Can someone please explain what "start request unit failed" means and
> > > how can I resolve this?
> > 
> > "START STOP UNIT" is a SCSI command that can be used by the host to
> > switch the spindle motor on and off.
> 
> Not entirely.
> 
> > This message can mean that the command itself failed
> 
> That's what it means.
> 
> > or (more likely if the drive is spinning) that the
> > drive is still not ready after the command as the host expects.
> 
> Which is reported in the failure of Start Unit.

Not in any case. If you have set the "Immed" bit you may get success
immediately but additional "TEST UNIT READY" commands may fail later.


Micha

[1] AFAIK there are only a few SCSI disks from IBM/Hitachi (with glass
media) where the heads should never touch the surface - instead they are
lifted on a ramp for parking. Most if not all other SCSI disks use
aluminium media and a landing zone.
0
Michael
12/19/2006 5:54:39 PM
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:55:07 +0100, "Folkert Rienstra"
<see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote:

>"Michael Baeuerle" <michael.baeuerle@stz-e.de> wrote in message news:q5uk54-4gd.ln1@micha.freeshell.org
>> pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
>> > 
>> > I am new to SCSI's. I have recently got myself an old server its an
>> > Acer Altos 1100e. I have 5 hot swap SCSI drives in there, 1 x Ultra2
>> > SCSI 18.2 Gb and 4 x Ultra3 SCSI 9.2Gb all running at 10K rpm. There is
>> > an Adaptec AHA-950u2b SCSI interface card. Running with 256 RAM and
>> > Pentium III 800Mhz CPU.
>> 
>> The Acer page:
>> http://www.acersupport.com/ess/html/1100e_specs.html
>> specify an "Adaptec Dual Channel Ultra2 SCSI PCI controller".
>> An AHA-950 seems to no exist. There is an AHA-F950, but that is a Fiber
>> Channel hostadapter. 
>
>> You probably have an AHA-3950U2.
>
>There does exist an AHA-3950U2B.
>

http://www.acersupport.com/ess/html/1100e_release.html

or 

http://developer.novell.com/yes/43225.htm

Then again, Acer and Novell are both probably wrong about what adapter
they use... 

>> 
0
PeterD
12/19/2006 7:22:12 PM
"PeterD" <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in message news:csego21l9f6msvpppg7hbc0g5m1t82l9s6@4ax.com
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:55:07 +0100, "Folkert Rienstra"
> <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote:
> 
> > "Michael Baeuerle" <michael.baeuerle@stz-e.de> wrote in message news:q5uk54-4gd.ln1@micha.freeshell.org
> > > pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > I am new to SCSI's. I have recently got myself an old server its an
> > > > Acer Altos 1100e. I have 5 hot swap SCSI drives in there, 1 x Ultra2
> > > > SCSI 18.2 Gb and 4 x Ultra3 SCSI 9.2Gb all running at 10K rpm. There is
> > > > an Adaptec AHA-950u2b SCSI interface card. Running with 256 RAM and
> > > > Pentium III 800Mhz CPU.
> > > 
> > > The Acer page:
> > > http://www.acersupport.com/ess/html/1100e_specs.html
> > > specify an "Adaptec Dual Channel Ultra2 SCSI PCI controller".
> > > An AHA-950 seems to no exist. There is an AHA-F950, but that is a Fiber
> > > Channel hostadapter.
> > 
> > > You probably have an AHA-3950U2.
> > 
> > There does exist an AHA-3950U2B.
> > 
> 
> http://www.acersupport.com/ess/html/1100e_release.html
> 
> or
> 
> http://developer.novell.com/yes/43225.htm
> 
> Then again, Acer and Novell are both probably wrong about what adapter
> they use...

Of course they are, what do they know.

http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support/mac/scsi/AVA-2906/interop/7800_FMS_products.htm
AHA-3950U2B 64-bit PCI-to-MultiChannel Ultra2 Wide LVD SCSI 

0
Folkert
12/19/2006 10:04:14 PM
"Michael Baeuerle" <michael.baeuerle@stz-e.de> wrote in message news:2kll54-h3e.ln1@micha.freeshell.org
> Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> > 
> > Michael Baeuerle wrote:
> > > 
> > > pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > 
> > > [...]
> > > You probably have an AHA-3950U2.
> > 
> > There does exist an AHA-3950U2B.
> 
> Hmm, I cannot find it. Adaptec lists only the 3950U2 on their INet pages. 

> If the "B" means the same as in the past, it should be simply a revised 
> version of the 3950U2.

No that makes it an OEM model. OEM versions may differ in connector 
topology making it a different model not existing in retail form and/or 
having a different PCI ID making them subject to limited OS support 
like eg the 19160 vs 29160n and 2930U2 vs 2940U2W.

D 0050 AHA-3950U2 Ultra2 SCSI Controller

D 0050 AHA-3950U2x Ultra2 SCSI Controller
O 9005 AHA-3950U2B Ultra2 SCSI Controller
S F500 AHA-3950U2B Ultra2 SCSI Controller

D 0051 AHA-3950U2x Ultra2 SCSI Controller
O 9005 AHA-3950U2D Ultra2 SCSI Controller
S B500 AHA-3950U2D Ultra2 SCSI Controller


> 
> > > > When I first installed the 4 x 9.2Gb drives I used to get "Start
> > > > Request Unit Failed" on one of the drives and a week or two later I
> > > > started to get the same message for the 18.2Gb drive. When you take 
> > > > the drives out you can still feel them spinning.
> > > 
> > > You should not (re)move a spinning disk because the mechanical shocks
> > > can damage it.
> > 
> > Flying heads may well survive shocks better than stationary.

> I disagree. If a disk spins, the heads are not parked (but the disk 
> will park them as soon as the power supply become disconnected). 

No one said anything about power disconnected.

> In other words: The disk will park the heads at the same time as it is
> mechanically moved - this is the worst case. If the acceleration is
> outside the limits and the heads touch the surface, it can be damaged
> over many cylinders. If the disk does not spin, the heads are parked
> and already touch the surface (of the landing zone) 

If the heads are parked you still can get head slap.

> [1]. This zone contains no data and cannot be damaged easily. 

Wait for the platters to spin counter clockwise and see what happens.

> The specifications of some Seagate disks that I have checked matches this ...
> 
> Example Seagate "Cheetah 18LP" (ST318203L):
> ---------------------------------------------------
> SHOCK (G's, 11/2/.5 ms):
>    operating (Read/Write) __________5
>    abnormal ________________________10
>    nonoperating ____________________75/200/100
> ---------------------------------------------------
> The OP use disks of this category. The allowed acceleration is approx.
> 10 times higher in nonoperating mode.
> 
> The limits for actual "Laptop" drives are much higher. Example Seagate
> "Momentus 5400.3" (ST9160821A):
> ---------------------------------------------------
> SHOCK (G's):
>    operating (2 ms)_________________350
>    abnormal ________________________
>    nonoperating (2/1/.5 ms) ________800/900/400
> ---------------------------------------------------
> The allowed acceleration is again higher in nonoperating mode.

Acceleration, presumably as in fall. 
I was more thinking of sideways motion. And apparently, so were you.

> 
> > > > Can someone please explain what "start request unit failed" means and
> > > > how can I resolve this?
> > > 
> > > "START STOP UNIT" is a SCSI command that can be used by the host to
> > > switch the spindle motor on and off.
> > 
> > Not entirely.
> > 
> > > This message can mean that the command itself failed
> > 
> > That's what it means.
> > 
> > > or (more likely if the drive is spinning) that the
> > > drive is still not ready after the command as the host expects.
> > 
> > Which is reported in the failure of Start Unit.
> 
> Not in any case. If you have set the "Immed" bit you may get success
> immediately but additional "TEST UNIT READY" commands may fail later.
> 
> 
> Micha
> 
> [1] AFAIK there are only a few SCSI disks from IBM/Hitachi (with glass
> media) where the heads should never touch the surface 

Not just SCSI, all of them.

> - instead they are  lifted on a ramp for parking. 

And if you look here you'll find a fair number of Seagate drives that 
use them too: http://www.seagate.com/newsinfo/newsroom/photo/

Btw, glass media are also used in microdrives.

> Most if not all other SCSI disks use aluminium media and a landing zone.

Some do, some don't:
http://www.seagate.com/content/newsinfo/images/downloads/Seagate_Cheetah_15K-4.jpg
http://www.seagate.com/content/newsinfo/images/downloads/Seagate_Cheetah_10K-7.jpg

http://www.seagate.com/newsinfo/images/downloads/Cuda_7200_9_SATA_500GB.jpg
0
Folkert
12/19/2006 10:32:05 PM
Guys,

I have run the diagnostics from the SCSI BIOS.

Before going into the BIOS this is what i get:

SCSI   ID 0    IBM            DDYS-T18350M      - START UNIT REQUEST
FAILED
SCSI   ID 1    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 0
SCSI   ID 2    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           - START UNIT REQUEST
FAILED
SCSI   ID 3    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 1
SCSI   ID 4    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 2

Then I go into the BIOS and run the diagnostic for the two drives the
FAILED and this is what I get:

For the IBM Drive:

TARGET SCSI ID                    0
SCSI CDB SENT:                    03 00 00 00 0E 00 70 00 02 00
HOST ADAPTER STATUS:       00h - NO HOST ADAPTER ERROR
TARGET STATUS:                   02h  - CHECK CONDITION
SENSE KEY:                          02h  - NOT READY
+ SENSE CODE:                     04h
+ SENSE CODE QUALIFIER:   00h

For the COMPAQ Drive:

TARGET SCSI ID                    3
SCSI CDB SENT:                    03 00 00 00 0E 00 70 00 02 00
HOST ADAPTER STATUS:       00h - NO HOST ADAPTER ERROR
TARGET STATUS:                   02h  - CHECK CONDITION
SENSE KEY:                          02h  - NOT READY
+ SENSE CODE:                     04h
+ SENSE CODE QUALIFIER:   00h

Does this mean anything to you guys? As it dont mean a thing to me.
Thanking you guys in advance for your help.

0
pritesh123
12/19/2006 11:35:10 PM
<pritesh123@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1166571310.939069.4830@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com
> Guys,
> 
> I have run the diagnostics from the SCSI BIOS.
> 
> Before going into the BIOS this is what i get:
> 
> SCSI   ID 0    IBM            DDYS-T18350M      - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> SCSI   ID 1    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 0
> SCSI   ID 2    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> SCSI   ID 3    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 1
> SCSI   ID 4    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 2
> 
> Then I go into the BIOS and run the diagnostic for the two drives the
> FAILED and this is what I get:
> 
> For the IBM Drive:
> 
> TARGET SCSI ID                    0
> SCSI CDB SENT:                    03 00 00 00 0E 00 70 00 02 00
> HOST ADAPTER STATUS:       00h - NO HOST ADAPTER ERROR
> TARGET STATUS:                   02h  - CHECK CONDITION
> SENSE KEY:                          02h  - NOT READY
> + SENSE CODE:                     04h
> + SENSE CODE QUALIFIER:   00h
> 
> For the COMPAQ Drive:
> 
> TARGET SCSI ID                    3
> SCSI CDB SENT:                    03 00 00 00 0E 00 70 00 02 00
> HOST ADAPTER STATUS:       00h - NO HOST ADAPTER ERROR
> TARGET STATUS:                   02h  - CHECK CONDITION
> SENSE KEY:                          02h  - NOT READY
> + SENSE CODE:                     04h
> + SENSE CODE QUALIFIER:   00h

> Does this mean anything to you guys? 

Yep: http://www.t10.org/lists/asc-num.htm#ASC_04
04/00    LOGICAL UNIT NOT READY, CAUSE NOT REPORTABLE

Usually that means it's dead as a doornail.



> As it dont mean a thing to me.
> Thanking you guys in advance for your help.
0
Folkert
12/20/2006 12:00:53 AM
<pritesh123@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1166571310.939069.4830@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Guys,
>
> I have run the diagnostics from the SCSI BIOS.
>
> Before going into the BIOS this is what i get:
>
> SCSI   ID 0    IBM            DDYS-T18350M      - START UNIT REQUEST
> FAILED
> SCSI   ID 1    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 0
> SCSI   ID 2    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           - START UNIT REQUEST
> FAILED
> SCSI   ID 3    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 1
> SCSI   ID 4    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 2
>
> Then I go into the BIOS and run the diagnostic for the two drives the
> FAILED and this is what I get:
>
> For the IBM Drive:
>
> TARGET SCSI ID                    0
> SCSI CDB SENT:                    03 00 00 00 0E 00 70 00 02 00
> HOST ADAPTER STATUS:       00h - NO HOST ADAPTER ERROR
> TARGET STATUS:                   02h  - CHECK CONDITION
> SENSE KEY:                          02h  - NOT READY
> + SENSE CODE:                     04h
> + SENSE CODE QUALIFIER:   00h
>
> For the COMPAQ Drive:
>
> TARGET SCSI ID                    3
> SCSI CDB SENT:                    03 00 00 00 0E 00 70 00 02 00
> HOST ADAPTER STATUS:       00h - NO HOST ADAPTER ERROR
> TARGET STATUS:                   02h  - CHECK CONDITION
> SENSE KEY:                          02h  - NOT READY
> + SENSE CODE:                     04h
> + SENSE CODE QUALIFIER:   00h
>
> Does this mean anything to you guys? As it dont mean a thing to me.
> Thanking you guys in advance for your help.
>

Two dead drives, or maybe, just maybe, two bad power connectors? When a 
drive starts up it draws more power than any other time during operation. 
When you have a bad power connection, the power at the drive logic may dip 
below a safety treshold and the drive may reset to power-down state.

Rob


0
Rob
12/20/2006 7:03:55 AM
I have tried to the two drive in to completely different slots by
swaping 4 of my 5 drive around and I still get the same error. Is it
possible to open up the drive and getting it working or is that too far
streched?

0
pritesh123
12/20/2006 8:53:49 AM
<pritesh123@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1166604829.304800.20570@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I have tried to the two drive in to completely different slots by
> swaping 4 of my 5 drive around and I still get the same error. Is it
> possible to open up the drive and getting it working or is that too far
> streched?
>
The change of recovering them by opening them up are none. There's nothing 
inside that you can 'fix'.

Rob


0
Rob
12/20/2006 9:39:41 AM
"Rob Turk" <wipe_this_r.turk@chello.nl> wrote in message news:80bbc$4588e065$3ec2f270$21215@news.chello.nl
> <pritesh123@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1166571310.939069.4830@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Guys,
> > 
> > I have run the diagnostics from the SCSI BIOS.
> > 
> > Before going into the BIOS this is what i get:
> > 
> > SCSI   ID 0    IBM            DDYS-T18350M      - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> > SCSI   ID 1    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 0
> > SCSI   ID 2    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> > SCSI   ID 3    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 1
> > SCSI   ID 4    COMPAQ   HD0093172L           ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 2
> > 
> > Then I go into the BIOS and run the diagnostic for the two drives the
> > FAILED and this is what I get:
> > 
> > For the IBM Drive:
> > 
> > TARGET SCSI ID                    0
> > SCSI CDB SENT:                    03 00 00 00 0E 00 70 00 02 00
> > HOST ADAPTER STATUS:       00h - NO HOST ADAPTER ERROR
> > TARGET STATUS:                   02h  - CHECK CONDITION
> > SENSE KEY:                          02h  - NOT READY
> > + SENSE CODE:                     04h
> > + SENSE CODE QUALIFIER:   00h

Here is something from an older IBM manual (DFHS), it may not apply,
unfortunately the DDYS lacks a Logical Interface Specification manual:

2 04 00 Logical Unit Not Ready Cause Not Reportable
Motor Start Failed due to Timer 1 being disa-bled.
Motor is Stuck, Cannot be started.
Motor timeout error.
Motor Thermal Shutdown

> > 
> > For the COMPAQ Drive:
> > 
> > TARGET SCSI ID                    3
> > SCSI CDB SENT:                    03 00 00 00 0E 00 70 00 02 00
> > HOST ADAPTER STATUS:       00h - NO HOST ADAPTER ERROR
> > TARGET STATUS:                   02h  - CHECK CONDITION
> > SENSE KEY:                          02h  - NOT READY
> > + SENSE CODE:                     04h
> > + SENSE CODE QUALIFIER:   00h
> > 
> > Does this mean anything to you guys? As it dont mean a thing to me.
> > Thanking you guys in advance for your help.
> > 

> Two dead drives, or maybe, just maybe, two bad power connectors? When a
> drive starts up it draws more power than any other time during operation.
> When you have a bad power connection, the power at the drive logic may
> dip below a safety treshold and the drive may reset to power-down state.

That would be sense codes 2 04 02 
Logical Unit Not Ready, initializing command required.

> 
> Rob
0
Folkert
12/20/2006 4:42:29 PM
Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> 
> Michael Baeuerle wrote:
> > 
> > Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> > > 
> > > Michael Baeuerle wrote:
> > > >
> > > > pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > When I first installed the 4 x 9.2Gb drives I used to get "Start
> > > > > Request Unit Failed" on one of the drives and a week or two later I
> > > > > started to get the same message for the 18.2Gb drive. When you take
> > > > > the drives out you can still feel them spinning.
> > > >
> > > > You should not (re)move a spinning disk because the mechanical shocks
> > > > can damage it.
> > >
> > > Flying heads may well survive shocks better than stationary.
> > 
> > I disagree. If a disk spins, the heads are not parked (but the disk
> > will park them as soon as the power supply become disconnected).
> 
> No one said anything about power disconnected.

I assumed a "hot unplug" - removing the powered and spinning drive from
the bay.

If the machine is able to power down the drive you can (and want to)
wait until the spindle stops. IMHO it makes no sense (and may be
difficult to realize because the spindle stops in few seconds) to remove
the switched off but still spining disk in this case.

> > In other words: The disk will park the heads at the same time as it is
> > mechanically moved - this is the worst case. If the acceleration is
> > outside the limits and the heads touch the surface, it can be damaged
> > over many cylinders. If the disk does not spin, the heads are parked
> > and already touch the surface (of the landing zone)
> 
> If the heads are parked you still can get head slap.

After the spindle have stopped this should be nearly impossible because
the heads are "grounded".

> > [1]. This zone contains no data and cannot be damaged easily.
> 
> Wait for the platters to spin counter clockwise and see what happens.

This cannot happen by the "sideway motion" (which is a linear
movement/acceleration) that we both have assumed.

> > [Seagate specifications]
> 
> Acceleration, presumably as in fall.
> I was more thinking of sideways motion. And apparently, so were you.

Yes. There is no direction specified, so I take the above values as
valid limits for any direction including sideways motion. A falling disk
is always accelerated with 1G and it should be obvious that it is
impossible to hit any type of hard surface without violating the 10G
limit (even if the height of the fall is only a few milimeters).

> > [...]
> > [1] AFAIK there are only a few SCSI disks from IBM/Hitachi (with glass
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^
> > media) where the heads should never touch the surface
> 
> Not just SCSI, all of them.

I have written about SCSI drives. ATA drives (mostly 2.5" and smaller)
with glass media and parking ramps are much more common and are
manufactured by different companies.

> > - instead they are lifted on a ramp for parking.
> 
> And if you look here you'll find a fair number of Seagate drives that
> use them too: http://www.seagate.com/newsinfo/newsroom/photo/

I can see no SCSI drive that either use glass media or a parking ramp.

> Btw, glass media are also used in microdrives.

AFAIK there are no SCSI microdrives.

> > Most if not all other SCSI disks use aluminium media and a landing zone.
> 
> Some do, some don't:
> http://www.seagate.com/content/newsinfo/images/downloads/Seagate_Cheetah_15K-4.jpg
> http://www.seagate.com/content/newsinfo/images/downloads/Seagate_Cheetah_10K-7.jpg

Both disks uses aluminium media and a landing zone. The plastic part
near the heads on the 15K4 is most likely for aerodynamic purposes, its
not for parking the heads.
BTW: The manuals of both disks also specify that the spindle must have
completely stopped before it is allowed to remove the drive from the bay
in hotplug applications.

> http://www.seagate.com/newsinfo/images/downloads/Cuda_7200_9_SATA_500GB.jpg

This is again not a SCSI drive.


Micha
0
Michael
12/21/2006 11:00:18 AM
pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Guys,
> 
> I have run the diagnostics from the SCSI BIOS.
> 
> Before going into the BIOS this is what i get:
> 
> SCSI   ID 0    IBM      DDYS-T18350M     - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED

The DDYS is known to be not very reliable.

> SCSI   ID 1    COMPAQ   HD0093172L       ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 0
> SCSI   ID 2    COMPAQ   HD0093172L       - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> [...]

This should be an OEM disk from one of the well known manufacturers. Is
there a model number (other than "HD0093172L") on the top label?


Micha
0
Michael
12/21/2006 11:24:13 AM
"Michael Baeuerle" <michael.baeuerle@stz-e.de> wrote in message news:0g7q54-gdg.ln1@micha.freeshell.org
> pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > Guys,
> > 
> > I have run the diagnostics from the SCSI BIOS.
> > 
> > Before going into the BIOS this is what i get:
> > 
> > SCSI   ID 0    IBM      DDYS-T18350M     - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED

> The DDYS is known to be not very reliable.

Apparently just as reliable as "the OEM disk from one of the well known manufacturers".

Have a link?

> 
> > SCSI   ID 1    COMPAQ   HD0093172L       ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 0
> > SCSI   ID 2    COMPAQ   HD0093172L       - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> > [...]
> 
> This should be an OEM disk from one of the well known manufacturers. 

> Is there a model number (other than "HD0093172L") on the top label?

And then what?

> 
> 
> Micha
0
Folkert
12/21/2006 5:51:31 PM
"Michael Baeuerle" <michael.baeuerle@stz-e.de> wrote in message news:636q54-tcg.ln1@micha.freeshell.org
> Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> > Michael Baeuerle wrote:
> > > Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> > > > Michael Baeuerle wrote:
> > > > > pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > When I first installed the 4 x 9.2Gb drives I used to get "Start
> > > > > > Request Unit Failed" on one of the drives and a week or two later I
> > > > > > started to get the same message for the 18.2Gb drive. When you take
> > > > > > the drives out you can still feel them spinning.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You should not (re)move a spinning disk because the mechanical shocks
> > > > > can damage it.
> > > > 
> > > > Flying heads may well survive shocks better than stationary.
> > > 
> > > I disagree. If a disk spins, the heads are not parked (but the disk
> > > will park them as soon as the power supply become disconnected).
> > 
> > No one said anything about power disconnected.
> 
> I assumed a "hot unplug" - removing the powered and spinning drive from
> the bay.

My mistake. Completely forgot about the 'hotswap'.
That's the problem when people snip too much.

> 
> If the machine is able to power down the drive you can (and want to)
> wait until the spindle stops. IMHO it makes no sense (and may be
> difficult to realize because the spindle stops in few seconds) to remove
> the switched off but still spining disk in this case.
> 
> > > In other words: The disk will park the heads at the same time as it is
> > > mechanically moved - this is the worst case. If the acceleration is
> > > outside the limits and the heads touch the surface, it can be damaged
> > > over many cylinders. If the disk does not spin, the heads are parked
> > > and already touch the surface (of the landing zone)
> > 
> > If the heads are parked you still can get head slap.
> 
> After the spindle have stopped this should be nearly impossible because
> the heads are "grounded".

As far as I understand headslap it is the heads jumping up and down on
the platter, leaving an impression, a footprint in the magnetic layer.

> 
> > > [1]. This zone contains no data and cannot be damaged easily.
> > 
> > Wait for the platters to spin counter clockwise and see what happens.

> This cannot happen by the "sideway motion" (which is a linear
> movement/acceleration) that we both have assumed.

That depends on what you do after it comes out of it's slot and whether 
it is vertically or horizontally mounted. As it appears it is vertical.
A spin around the axis is possible if you (nearly) drop it.
Anyway, the comment was hypothetical.

> 
> > > [Seagate specifications]
> > 
> > Acceleration, presumably as in fall.
> > I was more thinking of sideways motion. And apparently, so were you.

> Yes. There is no direction specified, so I take the above values as
> valid limits for any direction including sideways motion. 

Which makes them just that little bit suspect to me. 

> A falling disk is always accelerated with 1G and it should be obvious 
> that it is impossible to hit any type of hard surface without violating 
> the 10G limit (even if the height of the fall is only a few milimeters).
> 
> > > [...]
> > > [1] AFAIK there are only a few SCSI disks from IBM/Hitachi 
>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^
> > > (with glass media) where the heads should never touch the surface
> > 
> > Not just SCSI, all of them.
 
> I have written about SCSI drives. 

And I said "not just SCSI".

> ATA drives (mostly 2.5" and smaller)

I included the Deskstars (ie 3.5") . 
IBM didn't stop with SCSI or laptop drives there.

> with glass media and parking ramps are much more common and are
> manufactured by different companies.
> 
> > > - instead they are lifted on a ramp for parking.
> > 
> > And if you look here you'll find a fair number of Seagate drives that
> > use them too: http://www.seagate.com/newsinfo/newsroom/photo/

> I can see no SCSI drive that either use glass media or a parking ramp.

Duh, it'a a page with links to photos.

> 
> > Btw, glass media are also used in microdrives.

> AFAIK there are no SCSI microdrives.

What has SCSI got to do with glass media.
And no, while Savvios are not technically micro drives, they are smaller 
than usual though, laptop size.

> 
> > > Most if not all other SCSI disks use aluminium media and a landing zone.
> > 
> > Some do, some don't:
> > http://www.seagate.com/content/newsinfo/images/downloads/Seagate_Cheetah_15K-4.jpg
> > http://www.seagate.com/content/newsinfo/images/downloads/Seagate_Cheetah_10K-7.jpg
>
> Both disks uses aluminium media and a landing zone. 
> The plastic part near the heads on the 15K4 is most likely for aerodynamic 
> purposes, its not for parking the heads.
> BTW: The manuals of both disks also specify that the spindle must have
> completely stopped before it is allowed to remove the drive from the bay
> in hotplug applications.
> 
> > http://www.seagate.com/newsinfo/images/downloads/Cuda_7200_9_SATA_500GB.jpg
> 
> This is again not a SCSI drive.
> 
> 
> Micha
0
Folkert
12/21/2006 6:05:47 PM
just to confirm the drives are placed vertically into the computer.

the model number on the disk is HD0093172C above it is: Option Kit P/N
336357-B21

There are no give away signs of who the manufactuared the drive.

Have we no come to the conclusion that the two drive are dead? I guess
if this is the case then the beas place for them is in the bin, they
seem to die alot quicker then IDE drives, is there a reason for this?

0
pritesh123
12/21/2006 8:06:24 PM
Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> 
> Michael Baeuerle wrote:
> > 
> > pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I have run the diagnostics from the SCSI BIOS.
> > >
> > > Before going into the BIOS this is what i get:
> > >
> > > SCSI   ID 0    IBM      DDYS-T18350M     - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> 
> > The DDYS is known to be not very reliable.
> 
> Apparently just as reliable as "the OEM disk from one of the well known manufacturers".

This is why I want to know what the Compaq disks really are ... maybe
IBMs too.

> Have a link?

No, but in the german USENET there were some reports from users which
say that the reliablility of the IBM SCSI disks gone bad after the DNES.
Namely the DDYS and IIRC the DPSS. It was the time of the DTLA
"Deathstar" problems and it is likely that some of this technology was
used for the SCSI drives too.

> > > SCSI   ID 1    COMPAQ   HD0093172L       ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 0
> > > SCSI   ID 2    COMPAQ   HD0093172L       - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> > > [...]
> >
> > This should be an OEM disk from one of the well known manufacturers.
> 
> > Is there a model number (other than "HD0093172L") on the top label?
> 
> And then what?

Nothing. Just to know what model the failing Compaq disk really is.


Micha
-- 
http:/micha.freeshell.org
0
Michael
12/21/2006 10:31:22 PM
<pritesh123@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1166731584.410152.280270@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com
> just to confirm the drives are placed vertically into the computer.
>
> the model number on the disk is HD0093172C above it is: Option Kit P/N
> 336357-B21

http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-9-1GB-10KRPM-Wide-Ultra-SCSI-3-336357-B21_W0QQitemZ5171685857QQihZ017QQcategoryZ39974QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

You can google the factory partnumber (9J8006)
http://i20.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/8d/5f/3b_1_b.JPG
which is the manufacturers part number.
It's a Seagate Cheetah, presumably a 10k3.

>
> There are no give away signs of who the manufactuared the drive.

It says Seagate on the big black SCSI interface chip.

>
> Have we no come to the conclusion that the two drive are dead?

Yep.

> I guess
> if this is the case then the beas place for them is in the bin, they
> seem to die alot quicker then IDE drives, is there a reason for this?

Maybe because they were already dead when you aquired them?

I'll bet the Compaqs didn't come with the server originally.



0
Folkert
12/21/2006 11:29:49 PM
"Michael Baeuerle" <michael.baeuerle@gmx.net> wrote in message news:qkfr54-tk1.ln1@micha.freeshell.org
> Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> > 
> > Michael Baeuerle wrote:
> > > 
> > > pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > I have run the diagnostics from the SCSI BIOS.
> > > > 
> > > > Before going into the BIOS this is what i get:
> > > > 
> > > > SCSI   ID 0    IBM      DDYS-T18350M     - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> > 
> > > The DDYS is known to be not very reliable.
> > 
> > Apparently just as reliable as "the OEM disk from one of the well known manufacturers".

> This is why I want to know what the Compaq disks really are ... maybe IBMs too.

Nah, Seagate. 
But yes, they used IBM too (bottom right in the page that I linked to in the other post)

> 
> > Have a link?
> 
> No, but in the german USENET there were some reports from users which
> say that the reliablility of the IBM SCSI disks gone bad after the DNES.
> Namely the DDYS and IIRC the DPSS. It was the time of the DTLA
> "Deathstar" problems and it is likely that some of this technology was
> used for the SCSI drives too.
> 
> > > > SCSI   ID 1    COMPAQ   HD0093172L       ULTRA2-SE   - HARD DRIVE 0
> > > > SCSI   ID 2    COMPAQ   HD0093172L       - START UNIT REQUEST FAILED
> > > > [...]
> > > 
> > > This should be an OEM disk from one of the well known manufacturers.
> > 
> > > Is there a model number (other than "HD0093172L") on the top label?
> > 
> > And then what?
> 
> Nothing. Just to know what model the failing Compaq disk really is.
> 
> 
> Micha
0
Folkert
12/21/2006 11:41:25 PM
Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> 
> pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > just to confirm the drives are placed vertically into the computer.
> >
> > the model number on the disk is HD0093172C above it is: Option Kit P/N
> > 336357-B21
> 
> [...]
> It's a Seagate Cheetah,

No doubt with that unique top cover plate.

> presumably a 10k3.

10k3? I think it is more likely a 9LP (ST39102L) or 18LP
(ST39103L/ST39133L).


Micha
0
Michael
12/22/2006 10:20:51 AM
"Michael Baeuerle" <michael.baeuerle@stz-e.de> wrote in message news:65os54-jnh.ln1@micha.freeshell.org
> Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> > 
> > pritesh123@gmail.com wrote:
> > > 
> > > just to confirm the drives are placed vertically into the computer.
> > > 
> > > the model number on the disk is HD0093172C above it is: Option Kit P/N
> > > 336357-B21
> > 
> > [...]
> > It's a Seagate Cheetah,
> 
> No doubt with that unique top cover plate.
> 
> > presumably a 10k3.

> 10k3? 

As in 3rd gen Cheetah 10k 
(last number in the model number is the generation of the drive)

> I think it is more likely a 9LP (ST39102L) or 

http://search.ebay.com/9j8006_W0QQfromZR40

Yah, missed that. Ebay search unexpectedly returned a result for 
9l8006 instead of the 9j8006 and it happened to be the only Seagate.
Real stinker that one.

Closest I can find: ST39102LC
http://www.pinnaclemicro.com/dcat.cgi?i=9J8006-027&page=1


> 18LP (ST39103L/ST39133L).

I would make that a 10k3 (Ok, so they didn't name them that way, back then)
With Cheeatah10k at 7 now, that makes them real old, whether 10k2 or 10k3.

> 
> 
> Micha
0
Folkert
12/22/2006 1:22:04 PM
Reply: