First of all, I am 15 years old.  I got my first computer in 2001; it
was a Windows ME with fairly good specs for the time.  I had already
used other peoples computers and knew how to use one.  Soon, though,
after getting my own, I got seriously interested in them.  It became a
hobby that took up most of my time.

I quickly learned HTML between 11 and 12, and worked on a few amateur
websites.  I retain that to today, but never use it.  Not long after, I
got interested in game programming (a topic I knew next to nothing
about at the time).  I thought at the time that things like C++ and
Java were only for professionals.  I went and picked up a thing that
then seemed cryptic to me, "QBASIC".  It seemed alright, and used for
games, which I liked.  I realized how much it took to make things with
even the BASIC, and soon I quit that.

I went on to check out BYOND, Build Your Own Net Dream, because I was
still trying to create my own game.  The syntax of BYOND's programming
language was similar to C++, which I did not know at that time.  I
worked with it for a while and learned the language, but never ended up
using it because I didn't like its limitations.  I did this up until
several months ago.  I finally decided I wanted to seriously learn a
programming language.

I went and picked up an old copy of QBASIC, but realized soon how
defunct it was.  Then I went to something most of you probably aren't
familiar with: BASIC4GL.  It simplified graphics with BASIC, but there
were still several things I didn't like about it; one was the lack of
documentation.  The same went for freeBASIC.  Soon, I realized that if
I really wanted to be a programmer I should go to something different.

I went to cprogramming.com about a week ago.  I picked up the Dev-C++
compiler by Bloodshed and since then have been learning C++.  That may
not seem like long but I can already create some basic things with it
because I was already familiar with much of the syntax.

Anyway, that was mostly to introduce myself to the Usenet Group.  I
joined today.  I was wondering, knowing that most of you are
experienced programmers, how you would suggest I go about learning
Programming and Computer Science.  I know college is suggested but I am
also talking about before college.  I am eager to learn now!

Thanks for all replies, and I hope that I will be able to discuss more
in the future on this Usenet group.

Welcome. My discovery in 1970 was that the BEST WAY to learn is
genetic: building the software that runs the software.

Many textbooks in those early days for that reason started the student
out in programming in machine language, then in assembler, then using a
compiler such as Fortran.

I have written a book which you may find useful. It is Build Your Own
..Net Language and Compiler (Apress 2004). It gives you all the source
code for a working compiler for a significant part of Quick Basic,
Microsoft's old Basic, and the compiler is itself using modern
object-oriented techniques in Visual Basic .Net.

I discuss the meaning of compilers, assemblers, and the key or
fundamental idea of cs: interpretation of instructions encoded as data
at the same level as "data".

I'd send ya a free copy but I have run out. If you cannot afford the
book, Apress has it in eBook form. Go to www.apress.com for more info.
flaran@gmail.com wrote:
> First of all, I am 15 years old.  I got my first computer in 2001; it
> was a Windows ME with fairly good specs for the time.  I had already
> used other peoples computers and knew how to use one.  Soon, though,
> after getting my own, I got seriously interested in them.  It became a
> hobby that took up most of my time.
>
> I quickly learned HTML between 11 and 12, and worked on a few amateur
> websites.  I retain that to today, but never use it.  Not long after, I
> got interested in game programming (a topic I knew next to nothing
> about at the time).  I thought at the time that things like C++ and
> Java were only for professionals.  I went and picked up a thing that
> then seemed cryptic to me, "QBASIC".  It seemed alright, and used for
> games, which I liked.  I realized how much it took to make things with
> even the BASIC, and soon I quit that.
>
> I went on to check out BYOND, Build Your Own Net Dream, because I was
> still trying to create my own game.  The syntax of BYOND's programming
> language was similar to C++, which I did not know at that time.  I
> worked with it for a while and learned the language, but never ended up
> using it because I didn't like its limitations.  I did this up until
> several months ago.  I finally decided I wanted to seriously learn a
> programming language.
>
> I went and picked up an old copy of QBASIC, but realized soon how
> defunct it was.  Then I went to something most of you probably aren't
> familiar with: BASIC4GL.  It simplified graphics with BASIC, but there
> were still several things I didn't like about it; one was the lack of
> documentation.  The same went for freeBASIC.  Soon, I realized that if
> I really wanted to be a programmer I should go to something different.
>
> I went to cprogramming.com about a week ago.  I picked up the Dev-C++
> compiler by Bloodshed and since then have been learning C++.  That may
> not seem like long but I can already create some basic things with it
> because I was already familiar with much of the syntax.
>
> Anyway, that was mostly to introduce myself to the Usenet Group.  I
> joined today.  I was wondering, knowing that most of you are
> experienced programmers, how you would suggest I go about learning
> Programming and Computer Science.  I know college is suggested but I am
> also talking about before college.  I am eager to learn now!
>
> Thanks for all replies, and I hope that I will be able to discuss more
> in the future on this Usenet group.

Wait a minute, I may have erred: opinions, please, from other people.
Was the below an inappropriate commercial promotion of my book? If so
my apologies.

spinoza1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Welcome. My discovery in 1970 was that the BEST WAY to learn is
> genetic: building the software that runs the software.
>
> Many textbooks in those early days for that reason started the student
> out in programming in machine language, then in assembler, then using a
> compiler such as Fortran.
>
> I have written a book which you may find useful. It is Build Your Own
> .Net Language and Compiler (Apress 2004). It gives you all the source
> code for a working compiler for a significant part of Quick Basic,
> Microsoft's old Basic, and the compiler is itself using modern
> object-oriented techniques in Visual Basic .Net.
>
> I discuss the meaning of compilers, assemblers, and the key or
> fundamental idea of cs: interpretation of instructions encoded as data
> at the same level as "data".
>
> I'd send ya a free copy but I have run out. If you cannot afford the
> book, Apress has it in eBook form. Go to www.apress.com for more info.
> flaran@gmail.com wrote:
> > First of all, I am 15 years old.  I got my first computer in 2001; it
> > was a Windows ME with fairly good specs for the time.  I had already
> > used other peoples computers and knew how to use one.  Soon, though,
> > after getting my own, I got seriously interested in them.  It became a
> > hobby that took up most of my time.
> >
> > I quickly learned HTML between 11 and 12, and worked on a few amateur
> > websites.  I retain that to today, but never use it.  Not long after, I
> > got interested in game programming (a topic I knew next to nothing
> > about at the time).  I thought at the time that things like C++ and
> > Java were only for professionals.  I went and picked up a thing that
> > then seemed cryptic to me, "QBASIC".  It seemed alright, and used for
> > games, which I liked.  I realized how much it took to make things with
> > even the BASIC, and soon I quit that.
> >
> > I went on to check out BYOND, Build Your Own Net Dream, because I was
> > still trying to create my own game.  The syntax of BYOND's programming
> > language was similar to C++, which I did not know at that time.  I
> > worked with it for a while and learned the language, but never ended up
> > using it because I didn't like its limitations.  I did this up until
> > several months ago.  I finally decided I wanted to seriously learn a
> > programming language.
> >
> > I went and picked up an old copy of QBASIC, but realized soon how
> > defunct it was.  Then I went to something most of you probably aren't
> > familiar with: BASIC4GL.  It simplified graphics with BASIC, but there
> > were still several things I didn't like about it; one was the lack of
> > documentation.  The same went for freeBASIC.  Soon, I realized that if
> > I really wanted to be a programmer I should go to something different.
> >
> > I went to cprogramming.com about a week ago.  I picked up the Dev-C++
> > compiler by Bloodshed and since then have been learning C++.  That may
> > not seem like long but I can already create some basic things with it
> > because I was already familiar with much of the syntax.
> >
> > Anyway, that was mostly to introduce myself to the Usenet Group.  I
> > joined today.  I was wondering, knowing that most of you are
> > experienced programmers, how you would suggest I go about learning
> > Programming and Computer Science.  I know college is suggested but I am
> > also talking about before college.  I am eager to learn now!
> >
> > Thanks for all replies, and I hope that I will be able to discuss more
> > in the future on this Usenet group.

flaran@gmail.com wrote:
> First of all, I am 15 years old.  I got my first computer in 2001; it
> was a Windows ME with fairly good specs for the time.  I had already
> used other peoples computers and knew how to use one.  Soon, though,
> after getting my own, I got seriously interested in them.  It became a
> hobby that took up most of my time.
>
> I quickly learned HTML between 11 and 12, and worked on a few amateur
> websites.  I retain that to today, but never use it.  Not long after, I
> got interested in game programming (a topic I knew next to nothing
> about at the time).  I thought at the time that things like C++ and
> Java were only for professionals.  I went and picked up a thing that
> then seemed cryptic to me, "QBASIC".  It seemed alright, and used for
> games, which I liked.  I realized how much it took to make things with
> even the BASIC, and soon I quit that.

Qbasic is a fairly accomplished basic for MSDOS machines.  It was
pretty much out of date as a developmenty tool by the early 90's and
certainly now for modern operating systems.

none the less, learned well, it is a good tool for developing smaller
programs.

> I went on to check out BYOND, Build Your Own Net Dream, because I was
> still trying to create my own game.  The syntax of BYOND's programming
> language was similar to C++, which I did not know at that time.  I
> worked with it for a while and learned the language, but never ended up
> using it because I didn't like its limitations.  I did this up until
> several months ago.  I finally decided I wanted to seriously learn a
> programming language.

i admit to never having heard of BYOND

> I went and picked up an old copy of QBASIC, but realized soon how
> defunct it was.  Then I went to something most of you probably aren't
> familiar with: BASIC4GL.  It simplified graphics with BASIC, but there
> were still several things I didn't like about it; one was the lack of
> documentation.  The same went for freeBASIC.  Soon, I realized that if
> I really wanted to be a programmer I should go to something different.

FreeBASIC is nearly code compatible with Qbasic and a great way to port
old code to new systems.   With the Allegro graphics library i believe
it has it is also a gret way to produce graphical games.
Documentation is the weakness of almost all free development tools
however, especially once that use languages in a non standard way.   I
tried Basic4GL too and thought it rather clever, but not something i'd
want to invest lots of time into.

> I went to cprogramming.com about a week ago.  I picked up the Dev-C++
> compiler by Bloodshed and since then have been learning C++.  That may
> not seem like long but I can already create some basic things with it
> because I was already familiar with much of the syntax.

C++ is a *giant* language with more pitfalls than, well - than the
classic game pitfall!

The Dev-C++ tool is an IDE that incorporates the very good gnu set of c
and c++ compilers plus some extra libraries.

If you want to learn C++ you should check

http://www.accu.org/bookreviews/public/

and try to get a good introductory book on C++ and steadily work with
it.  Try not to latch on to online tutorials as these are of a mixed
quality and if you happen to pick up some bad knowledge you'll find it
harder to shake that off.

> Anyway, that was mostly to introduce myself to the Usenet Group.  I
> joined today.

real usenet groups are public in the sense that you don't have to join
to post, read and respond.   welcome!

> I was wondering, knowing that most of you are
> experienced programmers, how you would suggest I go about learning
> Programming and Computer Science.  I know college is suggested but I am
> also talking about before college.  I am eager to learn now!

the good books, gently practice and not rushing into areas too soon
(like saying to yourself your going to have a go at a 3d game)

> Thanks for all replies, and I hope that I will be able to discuss more
> in the future on this Usenet group.

At age 15, you should be chasing young 15 year old girls. You should get 
out from in front of that computer. You're 15 and you have sometime to 
learn this stuff. My advise to you is to get out from in front of the 
screen, keyboard and mouse.

Duane :)

flaran@gmail.com <flaran@gmail.com> wrote:
> [.. ] how you would suggest I go about learning Programming and Computer
> Science. I know college is suggested but I am also talking about before
> college. I am eager to learn now!

You could try watching the SICP lecture videos

  http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/

and reading the book (link on the video page). Just in case Jon Harrop
joins this discussion, I should mention that if the pace of the videos is
too slow for you (I would be amazed if it was), then you can always just
read the book or hop directly to some more advanced material. If you have
trouble understanding stuff presented on the video, you could ask
questions in the comp.lang.scheme newsgroup. If you pose the questions
carefully, I'm sure you'll get help there.

-Vesa Karvonen

Believe me, I do chase after 15 year old girls... and 16 year old
girls. ;)

This is something along with schools and socializing.

Duane Arnold wrote:
> At age 15, you should be chasing young 15 year old girls. You should get
> out from in front of that computer. You're 15 and you have sometime to
> learn this stuff. My advise to you is to get out from in front of the
> screen, keyboard and mouse.

LOL. I was going to say that, at 15, you're already too old to learn to use
a computer properly. :-)

-- 
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy
http://www.ffconsultancy.com

flaran@gmail.com wrote:
> First of all, I am 15 years old.

I am 28 years old.

> I got my first computer in 2001; it 
> was a Windows ME with fairly good specs for the time.  I had already
> used other peoples computers and knew how to use one.  Soon, though,
> after getting my own, I got seriously interested in them.  It became a
> hobby that took up most of my time.

If you want to learn to program then you would do well to consider Linux
instead of Windows. If you want an easy way into Linux then download and
burn a Knoppix CD and reboot into Linux from the CD.

Linux comes with a bewildering array of tools (like interpreters and
compilers) for a wide variety of programming languages. Microsoft are
working on this but, as of yet, I believe they are behind.

> I quickly learned HTML between 11 and 12, and worked on a few amateur
> websites.  I retain that to today, but never use it.

Great. When you're writing programs, consider how you'd write programs that
manipulate HTML. For example, to automate some tedious, repetitive task
that you don't want to do by hand. Pay particular attention to how you
would represent HTML inside a program.

> Not long after, I 
> got interested in game programming (a topic I knew next to nothing
> about at the time).

Graphics are great when you're learning to program.

I wrote my first ray tracer in BASIC when I was your age. You might like to
look at a simple ray tracer that I wrote recently in C++, Java, OCaml and
SML:

  http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/ray_tracer/index.html
  http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/ray_tracer/comparison.html
  http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/ray_tracer/languages.html

You'll find 3D graphics difficult until you've covered vectors and matrices
in school mathematics. I managed to botch my first ray tracer together with
only superficial knowledge of this subject (and lots of unnecessary use of
trig functions!).

> I thought at the time that things like C++ and Java were only for
> professionals. 

Not at all. They didn't exist when I was 15 so I was learning C instead
(having learned Logo, BASIC, Pascal, 6502 and ARM assembler). Don't mistake
"common" for "professional".

I would recommend learning languages used by academics, like SML, OCaml,
Scheme and Haskell. I think you'll find the video lectures cited by Vesa a
good introduction to Lisp and Scheme.

> I went and picked up a thing that 
> then seemed cryptic to me, "QBASIC".  It seemed alright, and used for
> games, which I liked.  I realized how much it took to make things with
> even the BASIC, and soon I quit that.

Good. Remember the lessons you learned. I suspect:

1. Fixing errors by running the program is tedious. When possible you want
to know about errors before you run the program.

2. Performance can be important, e.g. for games.

Languages like OCaml and SML address these problems.

> I went on to check out BYOND, Build Your Own Net Dream, because I was
> still trying to create my own game.  The syntax of BYOND's programming
> language was similar to C++, which I did not know at that time.  I
> worked with it for a while and learned the language, but never ended up
> using it because I didn't like its limitations.  I did this up until
> several months ago.  I finally decided I wanted to seriously learn a
> programming language.

My advice is not to bother going into too much detail on any particular
language until you have a good idea of what other languages offer. I put
way too much effort into C++ templates, for example. In the end, I just
found lots of compiler bugs and never got the code working the way I
wanted.

> I went and picked up an old copy of QBASIC, but realized soon how
> defunct it was.  Then I went to something most of you probably aren't
> familiar with: BASIC4GL.  It simplified graphics with BASIC, but there
> were still several things I didn't like about it; one was the lack of
> documentation.  The same went for freeBASIC.  Soon, I realized that if
> I really wanted to be a programmer I should go to something different.

Yes. Don't put any more effort into BASIC.

> I went to cprogramming.com about a week ago.  I picked up the Dev-C++
> compiler by Bloodshed and since then have been learning C++.  That may
> not seem like long but I can already create some basic things with it
> because I was already familiar with much of the syntax.

You'll probably find it much easier to develop using a language like OCaml.
Check out the example programs I wrote on this site, particularly the
OpenGL program "triangle":

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocaml

Check out the other languages on Wikipedia too:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Programming_languages

> Anyway, that was mostly to introduce myself to the Usenet Group.  I
> joined today.  I was wondering, knowing that most of you are
> experienced programmers, how you would suggest I go about learning
> Programming and Computer Science.

Just to warn you that a lot of people on usenet aren't experienced and, even
when they are they don't always agree.

> I know college is suggested but I am 
> also talking about before college.  I am eager to learn now!

I strongly suggest that you continue to learn as much and as quickly as you
can before you go to college. It will give you a lot more free time to
spent with the much more intelligent and better looking college girls.

> Thanks for all replies, and I hope that I will be able to discuss more
> in the future on this Usenet group.

NP.

-- 
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy
http://www.ffconsultancy.com

Jon Harrop <usenet@jdh30.plus.com> wrote in
news:4354e422$0$73588$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net: 

> Duane Arnold wrote:
>> At age 15, you should be chasing young 15 year old girls. You should
>> get out from in front of that computer. You're 15 and you have
>> sometime to learn this stuff. My advise to you is to get out from in
>> front of the screen, keyboard and mouse.
> 
> LOL. I was going to say that, at 15, you're already too old to learn
> to use a computer properly. :-)
> 

I started messing with computers in 1971 and started programming on the 
IBM mainframes in 1980 or so, after being in the IT field for about 9 or 
10 years. It's so long ago I can't recall whne it happened. :  Now, I am 
programming with the MS .Net Technologies and they are paying some long 
$$$$$$$(s) to do the contract. So, I'll tell the young man, learn how to 
program on the MS or M$ environment/platform. That's if the OP wants to 
get paid. <g> I know Linux too but not as well as M$ :)

Duane :)

I use Linux and Windows dual boot... No real reason to tell me about
that-- I have always planned on being multi-platformed.

"Flaran" <flaran@gmail.com> wrote in news:1129663449.826099.76580
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> I use Linux and Windows dual boot... No real reason to tell me about
> that-- I have always planned on being multi-platformed.
> 

Well, you should start yourself a network with two machines and come away 
from the dual boot into a networking environment with more than one MS 
machine and/or Linux machines and write programs in a multi user 
environment over the LAN. You should learn how to write Windows service, 
console, desktop, and Web Internet/Intranet programs, which mean you'll 
need to move to a Windows NT pro workstation like Win 2K or XP pro so you 
can use IIS or others. You should learn how to write programs that use 
databases like MS SQL Server and MS Access with MS Access as a starter 
and move up to MS SQL Server.

Like I said I have Linux on the network but I don't know Linux like I 
know M$ but you can do the same there too. That's if you're serious and 
your looking to make any serious $$$$ with using programming techniques 
and languages in your future. Yes, you can do the game stuff. But you 
should also learn how to write programs for business solutions as that's 
where the $$$$ will be paid for your expertise.

Duane :)

 
 
 Duane :)

I was past forty when I first learned to use a computer.

I guess, though, that since I'm a C++ programmer that you could say that I
abuse the computer and don't use it "properly".


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
DataGet & PocketLog  www.dataget.com
Data Collectors             www.baxcode.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------



"Jon Harrop" <usenet@jdh30.plus.com> wrote in message
news:4354e422$0$73588$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> Duane Arnold wrote:
> > At age 15, you should be chasing young 15 year old girls. You should get
> > out from in front of that computer. You're 15 and you have sometime to
> > learn this stuff. My advise to you is to get out from in front of the
> > screen, keyboard and mouse.
>
> LOL. I was going to say that, at 15, you're already too old to learn to
use
> a computer properly. :-)
>
> -- 
> Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy
> http://www.ffconsultancy.com

In article <4354ea5d$0$73588$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>, 
usenet@jdh30.plus.com says...
> [...]
> I am 28 years old.
> [...]
> > I thought at the time that things like C++ and Java were only for
> > professionals. 
> 
> Not at all. They didn't exist when I was 15 so I was learning C instead
> (having learned Logo, BASIC, Pascal, 6502 and ARM assembler).

C++ most definitely existed 13 years ago. (It has its origins in
the mid 1980s.)

-- 
Christer Ericson
http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/

Christer Ericson wrote:
> In article <4354ea5d$0$73588$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
> usenet@jdh30.plus.com says...
>> [...]
>> I am 28 years old.
>> [...]
>> > I thought at the time that things like C++ and Java were only for
>> > professionals.
>> 
>> Not at all. They didn't exist when I was 15 so I was learning C instead
>> (having learned Logo, BASIC, Pascal, 6502 and ARM assembler).
> 
> C++ most definitely existed 13 years ago. (It has its origins in
> the mid 1980s.)

That depends entirely upon what you mean by "C++", "existed" and "origins".
There were no C++ compilers for the platform I was using (Acorn) at that
time.

-- 
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy
http://www.ffconsultancy.com

<flaran@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1129512559.694136.183200@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> First of all, I am 15 years old.  I got my first computer in 2001; it
> was a Windows ME with fairly good specs for the time.  I had already
> used other peoples computers and knew how to use one.  Soon, though,
> after getting my own, I got seriously interested in them.  It became a
> hobby that took up most of my time.
>
> I quickly learned HTML between 11 and 12, and worked on a few amateur
> websites.  I retain that to today, but never use it.  Not long after, I
> got interested in game programming (a topic I knew next to nothing
> about at the time).  I thought at the time that things like C++ and
> Java were only for professionals.  I went and picked up a thing that
> then seemed cryptic to me, "QBASIC".  It seemed alright, and used for
> games, which I liked.  I realized how much it took to make things with
> even the BASIC, and soon I quit that.
>
> I went on to check out BYOND, Build Your Own Net Dream, because I was
> still trying to create my own game.  The syntax of BYOND's programming
> language was similar to C++, which I did not know at that time.  I
> worked with it for a while and learned the language, but never ended up
> using it because I didn't like its limitations.  I did this up until
> several months ago.  I finally decided I wanted to seriously learn a
> programming language.
>
> I went and picked up an old copy of QBASIC, but realized soon how
> defunct it was.  Then I went to something most of you probably aren't
> familiar with: BASIC4GL.  It simplified graphics with BASIC, but there
> were still several things I didn't like about it; one was the lack of
> documentation.  The same went for freeBASIC.  Soon, I realized that if
> I really wanted to be a programmer I should go to something different.
>
> I went to cprogramming.com about a week ago.  I picked up the Dev-C++
> compiler by Bloodshed and since then have been learning C++.  That may
> not seem like long but I can already create some basic things with it
> because I was already familiar with much of the syntax.
>
> Anyway, that was mostly to introduce myself to the Usenet Group.  I
> joined today.  I was wondering, knowing that most of you are
> experienced programmers, how you would suggest I go about learning
> Programming and Computer Science.  I know college is suggested but I am
> also talking about before college.  I am eager to learn now!
>
> Thanks for all replies, and I hope that I will be able to discuss more
> in the future on this Usenet group.
>

You might want to consider using something like Visual Basic rather than C 
or C++, esp. if you're on Windows.  You can probably get a copy of VB5 or 6 
off eBay very cheaply?



C/C++ are general purpose programming languages and whose design[s] make 
them esp. useful for writing operating systems, compilers, and other program 
that need to be portable, ultra small and/or fast and/or - they're a thin 
layer of abstraction above writing in assembler.  I use a variety of 
languages, including C and C++, and teach them at university - however, 
those courses are on compiler writing - and the students [ultimately] write 
a compiler in either of the two ... as I say, they're well suited to such 
things.  However, because they can be used to write 'anything', ppl often 
use them to write 'everything'.  You should think about a 'horses for 
courses' approach - what is it you want to write - what's the best language 
to write it in - declarative languages like [mostly] prolog, haskell, XSL 
...., or something else that's imperative?



As to learning computer science - are you sure you want to?  You can be a 
great programmer without knowing the slightest formal stuff - however, if 
you do want to learn it, remember it's mostly mathematical.  Perhaps 
consider learning software engineering instead?

Duane Arnold wrote:
> At age 15, you should be chasing young 15 year old girls. You should get
> out from in front of that computer. You're 15 and you have sometime to
> learn this stuff. My advise to you is to get out from in front of the
> screen, keyboard and mouse.
>
> Duane :)

I don't agree. Kid should follow his passion, and not be socialized to
fall into behavior patterns that might get him prematurely married to
some girl who doesn't understand his interests.

American kids are in my view pressured too much to act "normal" which
is today convergence to a deviant norm, in which they don't learn to
read books, they don't learn to do math, they can't think about
politics except with a brutal authoritarianism, and they certainly
can't program. The results on economic competitiveness have been
already noted.

The bullying and the flaming in this news group shows that geeks
themselves are twisted individuals, ashamed of being merely curious and
ashamed of not being the idealized modal white American, aggressively
heterosexual and oh, so very "normal", to the extent that what he don't
know don't mean shit.

spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote
(in article 
<1129809807.934320.223890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>):

> American kids are in my view pressured too much to act "normal" which
> is today convergence to a deviant norm, in which they don't learn to
> read books, they don't learn to do math, they can't think about
> politics except with a brutal authoritarianism, and they certainly
> can't program. The results on economic competitiveness have been
> already noted.

Out of work again Nilgewater?

-- 
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

> I don't agree. Kid should follow his passion, and not be socialized to
> fall into behavior patterns that might get him prematurely married to
> some girl who doesn't understand his interests.
> 
> American kids are in my view pressured too much to act "normal" which
> is today convergence to a deviant norm, in which they don't learn to
> read books, they don't learn to do math, they can't think about
> politics except with a brutal authoritarianism, and they certainly
> can't program. The results on economic competitiveness have been
> already noted.
> 
> The bullying and the flaming in this news group shows that geeks
> themselves are twisted individuals, ashamed of being merely curious and
> ashamed of not being the idealized modal white American, aggressively
> heterosexual and oh, so very "normal", to the extent that what he don't
> know don't mean shit.

Getting a little ass and getting married are two different things. And 
where you're coming up with the rest of this spill is beyond me. 

Are there Prozac and sedatives in the house for you that you're taking?

Duane :)

Duane Arnold wrote:
> > I don't agree. Kid should follow his passion, and not be socialized to
> > fall into behavior patterns that might get him prematurely married to
> > some girl who doesn't understand his interests.
> >
> > American kids are in my view pressured too much to act "normal" which
> > is today convergence to a deviant norm, in which they don't learn to
> > read books, they don't learn to do math, they can't think about
> > politics except with a brutal authoritarianism, and they certainly
> > can't program. The results on economic competitiveness have been
> > already noted.
> >
> > The bullying and the flaming in this news group shows that geeks
> > themselves are twisted individuals, ashamed of being merely curious and
> > ashamed of not being the idealized modal white American, aggressively
> > heterosexual and oh, so very "normal", to the extent that what he don't
> > know don't mean shit.
>
> Getting a little ass and getting married are two different things. And
> where you're coming up with the rest of this spill is beyond me.

So you're telling the kid to committ statutory rape on a 15 year old
girl in place of learning a profession. Gee, I wonder why all the
software jobs are here in Asia.
>
> Are there Prozac and sedatives in the house for you that you're taking?
> 
> Duane :)

Jon Harrop wrote:
> Christer Ericson wrote:
>>In article <4354ea5d$0$73588$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
>>usenet@jdh30.plus.com says...
[...]
>>>>I thought at the time that things like C++ and Java were only for
>>>>professionals.
>>>
>>>Not at all. They didn't exist when I was 15 so I was learning C instead
>>>(having learned Logo, BASIC, Pascal, 6502 and ARM assembler).
>>
>>C++ most definitely existed 13 years ago. (It has its origins in
>>the mid 1980s.)
> 
> 
> That depends entirely upon what you mean by "C++", "existed" and "origins".
> There were no C++ compilers for the platform I was using (Acorn) at that
> time.

In 1990, C++ was widely available via AT&T's Cfront C++ to C translator.
 The following Wiki entry indicates that Cfront arrived in 1983.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cfront

    Randy

-- 
Randy Crawford   http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~rand   rand AT rice DOT edu

Randy wrote:
> Jon Harrop wrote:
>> Christer Ericson wrote:
>>>In article <4354ea5d$0$73588$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
>>>usenet@jdh30.plus.com says...
> [...]
>>>>>I thought at the time that things like C++ and Java were only for
>>>>>professionals.
>>>>
>>>>Not at all. They didn't exist when I was 15 so I was learning C instead
>>>>(having learned Logo, BASIC, Pascal, 6502 and ARM assembler).
>>>
>>>C++ most definitely existed 13 years ago. (It has its origins in
>>>the mid 1980s.)
>> 
>> That depends entirely upon what you mean by "C++", "existed" and
>> "origins". There were no C++ compilers for the platform I was using
>> (Acorn) at that time.
> 
> In 1990, C++ was widely available via AT&T's Cfront C++ to C translator.
>  The following Wiki entry indicates that Cfront arrived in 1983.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cfront

Yes, Cfront was retro-fitted onto Norcroft many years after that, AFAIK:

  http://www.accu.org/acornsig/public/caugers/volume2/issue1/ianjohnson.html

-- 
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy
http://www.ffconsultancy.com

spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote in
news:1129896984.725859.155170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: 

> 
> Duane Arnold wrote:
>> > I don't agree. Kid should follow his passion, and not be socialized
>> > to fall into behavior patterns that might get him prematurely
>> > married to some girl who doesn't understand his interests.
>> >
>> > American kids are in my view pressured too much to act "normal"
>> > which is today convergence to a deviant norm, in which they don't
>> > learn to read books, they don't learn to do math, they can't think
>> > about politics except with a brutal authoritarianism, and they
>> > certainly can't program. The results on economic competitiveness
>> > have been already noted.
>> >
>> > The bullying and the flaming in this news group shows that geeks
>> > themselves are twisted individuals, ashamed of being merely curious
>> > and ashamed of not being the idealized modal white American,
>> > aggressively heterosexual and oh, so very "normal", to the extent
>> > that what he don't know don't mean shit.
>>
>> Getting a little ass and getting married are two different things.
>> And where you're coming up with the rest of this spill is beyond me.
> 
> So you're telling the kid to committ statutory rape on a 15 year old
> girl in place of learning a profession. Gee, I wonder why all the
> software jobs are here in Asia.
>>

You're seeing what *YOU* want to see in this. The OP is 15. So where do 
you get statutory rape out of a 15 year old boy and girl doing the nasty? 
At first, it was about marriage you were whining about with the young 
man. Now, the young man is committing statutory rape in your mind. Maybe, 
you need something a whole lot stronger that Prozac. 

I am going to have to give you a logical <PLONK> that's a <PLANK> to you. 
You're not worth a <PLONK> at this time but you're getting there. <g>  

Duane :)
  

Duane Arnold wrote:
> spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote in
> news:1129896984.725859.155170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > Duane Arnold wrote:
> >> > I don't agree. Kid should follow his passion, and not be socialized
> >> > to fall into behavior patterns that might get him prematurely
> >> > married to some girl who doesn't understand his interests.
> >> >
> >> > American kids are in my view pressured too much to act "normal"
> >> > which is today convergence to a deviant norm, in which they don't
> >> > learn to read books, they don't learn to do math, they can't think
> >> > about politics except with a brutal authoritarianism, and they
> >> > certainly can't program. The results on economic competitiveness
> >> > have been already noted.
> >> >
> >> > The bullying and the flaming in this news group shows that geeks
> >> > themselves are twisted individuals, ashamed of being merely curious
> >> > and ashamed of not being the idealized modal white American,
> >> > aggressively heterosexual and oh, so very "normal", to the extent
> >> > that what he don't know don't mean shit.
> >>
> >> Getting a little ass and getting married are two different things.
> >> And where you're coming up with the rest of this spill is beyond me.
> >
> > So you're telling the kid to committ statutory rape on a 15 year old
> > girl in place of learning a profession. Gee, I wonder why all the
> > software jobs are here in Asia.
> >>
>
> You're seeing what *YOU* want to see in this. The OP is 15. So where do
> you get statutory rape out of a 15 year old boy and girl doing the nasty?

You used the phrase "getting a little ass". Now unless you are some
sort of pervert this means underage sex.

> At first, it was about marriage you were whining about with the young
> man. Now, the young man is committing statutory rape in your mind. Maybe,
> you need something a whole lot stronger that Prozac.
>
> I am going to have to give you a logical <PLONK> that's a <PLANK> to you.
> You're not worth a <PLONK> at this time but you're getting there. <g>
> 
> Duane :)

spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote in
news:1129979508.935462.69900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: 

> 
> Duane Arnold wrote:
>> spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote in
>> news:1129896984.725859.155170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >
>> > Duane Arnold wrote:
>> >> > I don't agree. Kid should follow his passion, and not be
>> >> > socialized to fall into behavior patterns that might get him
>> >> > prematurely married to some girl who doesn't understand his
>> >> > interests. 
>> >> >
>> >> > American kids are in my view pressured too much to act "normal"
>> >> > which is today convergence to a deviant norm, in which they
>> >> > don't learn to read books, they don't learn to do math, they
>> >> > can't think about politics except with a brutal
>> >> > authoritarianism, and they certainly can't program. The results
>> >> > on economic competitiveness have been already noted.
>> >> >
>> >> > The bullying and the flaming in this news group shows that geeks
>> >> > themselves are twisted individuals, ashamed of being merely
>> >> > curious and ashamed of not being the idealized modal white
>> >> > American, aggressively heterosexual and oh, so very "normal", to
>> >> > the extent that what he don't know don't mean shit.
>> >>
>> >> Getting a little ass and getting married are two different things.
>> >> And where you're coming up with the rest of this spill is beyond
>> >> me. 
>> >
>> > So you're telling the kid to committ statutory rape on a 15 year
>> > old girl in place of learning a profession. Gee, I wonder why all
>> > the software jobs are here in Asia.
>> >>
>>
>> You're seeing what *YOU* want to see in this. The OP is 15. So where
>> do you get statutory rape out of a 15 year old boy and girl doing the
>> nasty? 
> 
> You used the phrase "getting a little ass". Now unless you are some
> sort of pervert this means underage sex.

You're some kind of *nut* get out of here.

You're <PLONKED>. 

<g>

spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote
(in article 
<1129979508.935462.69900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):

>>>> Getting a little ass and getting married are two different things.
>>>> And where you're coming up with the rest of this spill is beyond me.
>>> 
>>> So you're telling the kid to committ statutory rape on a 15 year old
>>> girl in place of learning a profession. Gee, I wonder why all the
>>> software jobs are here in Asia.
>>>> 
>> 
>> You're seeing what *YOU* want to see in this. The OP is 15. So where do
>> you get statutory rape out of a 15 year old boy and girl doing the nasty?
> 
> You used the phrase "getting a little ass". Now unless you are some
> sort of pervert this means underage sex.

Not even you can be that dense.  come on.


-- 
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those 
 who have not got it."  - George Bernard Shaw

Duane Arnold wrote:
> spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote in
> news:1129979508.935462.69900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > Duane Arnold wrote:
> >> spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote in
> >> news:1129896984.725859.155170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Duane Arnold wrote:
> >> >> > I don't agree. Kid should follow his passion, and not be
> >> >> > socialized to fall into behavior patterns that might get him
> >> >> > prematurely married to some girl who doesn't understand his
> >> >> > interests.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > American kids are in my view pressured too much to act "normal"
> >> >> > which is today convergence to a deviant norm, in which they
> >> >> > don't learn to read books, they don't learn to do math, they
> >> >> > can't think about politics except with a brutal
> >> >> > authoritarianism, and they certainly can't program. The results
> >> >> > on economic competitiveness have been already noted.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The bullying and the flaming in this news group shows that geeks
> >> >> > themselves are twisted individuals, ashamed of being merely
> >> >> > curious and ashamed of not being the idealized modal white
> >> >> > American, aggressively heterosexual and oh, so very "normal", to
> >> >> > the extent that what he don't know don't mean shit.
> >> >>
> >> >> Getting a little ass and getting married are two different things.
> >> >> And where you're coming up with the rest of this spill is beyond
> >> >> me.
> >> >
> >> > So you're telling the kid to committ statutory rape on a 15 year
> >> > old girl in place of learning a profession. Gee, I wonder why all
> >> > the software jobs are here in Asia.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> You're seeing what *YOU* want to see in this. The OP is 15. So where
> >> do you get statutory rape out of a 15 year old boy and girl doing the
> >> nasty?
> >
> > You used the phrase "getting a little ass". Now unless you are some
> > sort of pervert this means underage sex.
>
> You're some kind of *nut* get out of here.

No, I'm not. I'm Edward G. Nilges, the author of Build Your Own .Net
Language and Compiler (Apress 2004), I have thirty years of experience
including compiler development and assisting John Nash, and having
decided to participate in a thread in which a kid asked for guidance, I
am offended that you advised him to "get a little ass" at the age of 15
in place of learning a profession. Your behavior constituted internet
abuse.

In part this is because I have seen the same language used against
programmers with genuine concerns that they are being forced to turn
out crap in a society in which increasingly dysfunctional software
systems (including, apparently, the software used at FEMA by
decision-makers who decided that emergency workers were best allocated
to classes in sexual harassment).

Programmers who manifest any enthusiasm about the actual content of
their job or who have more technical or cultural knowledge than some
moron boss are also advised in the same language to "get a little
ass"...in a pseudo-liberatory language which Foucault showed some time
ago is a vector of power.

You're the deviant and you don't belong here. Furthermore, I thought
you plonked me, and would not reply; this exhibits lack of
self-control.

This isn't talk radio, punk, and you cannot shout me down. All you can
do is get buried in the old style underneath a classic
spinoza1111/Nilges flame war in which your technical and cultural
deficiencies will be exposed. Up for it?

Note: no reply is being made to Randy Howard, who is a known troll.
I've undertaken with third parties not to reply to Howard whose anger
management skills are deficient.
> 
> You're <PLONKED>. 
> 
> <g>

Randy Howard said:

> Not even you can be that dense.  come on.
 
Don't be ridiculous, Randy.

-- 
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/2005
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)

-chuckles-

Richard Heathfield wrote
(in article 
<djgjve$9tf$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):

> Randy Howard said:
> 
>> Not even you can be that dense.  come on.
>  
> Don't be ridiculous, Randy.

My apologies.  Must be the allergy medicine.  


-- 
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those 
 who have not got it."  - George Bernard Shaw

It is no future in Computer Science think the way we are doing,
working, we don't have girl friend, we never have time for dating. Yet,
batches all the time for coding.

Do you want to follow this route?

phal wrote:

> It is no future in Computer Science think the way we are doing,
> working, we don't have girl friend, we never have time for dating. Yet,
> batches all the time for coding.
>
> Do you want to follow this route?

Me got oodles of money, and a 7-hour per day job. (And a relaxed train 
commute so I can noodle on my notebook!)

Women, they dig all that. Especially the first part.

If you no got time for Real Life, you need to get better job. (And write 
more unit tests.)

-- 
  Phlip
  http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand  <-- NOT a blog!!! 

Jon Harrop writes:

>> At age 15, you should be chasing young 15 year old girls. You should get
>> out from in front of that computer. You're 15 and you have sometime to
>> learn this stuff. My advise to you is to get out from in front of the
>> screen, keyboard and mouse.
> 
> LOL. I was going to say that, at 15, you're already too old to learn to use
> a computer properly. :-)

Or girls, either.

Might as well get started learning BOTH now!

-- 
|_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL  |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|