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Quark Xpress upgrade to 7.0 from 4.11

Hi all!

Some of you may remember me from way back. I see that many of you are 
still active here and hope you're all flourishing?

Now to bizness... I have decided to finally upgrade our ageing copies of 
Quirk Depress 4.11 to 7 (and 8 when it ships). I have a number of 
questions I can't find answers to on the world wide wait and hope that 
some of the old timers will take pity on me and be able to help.
;-)

1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...
2. Will it recognise (and work with) ATM 4.1 Deluxe for Windoze (XP) or 
do I need a new font mangler?
3. Will it support our font libraries (mainly Adobe, Bitstream and Lino 
PS type 1 fonts)?
4. Will it import PSD files from Photoshop 6.0 (yep, I'm out of date 
with that one too)?
5. Will QX 8.0 import native ai files from Illustrator 8.0 (Yep, even 
more out of date with that, too!)?

*For those who don't know this printer. It's a PS level 3 SRA3 color 
laser we bought in late 2002. I think it was sold upto 2005 but don't 
quote me...

A few general questions...

How fast does QX 7.0 run? We'll be sticking it on two Wintel boxes, both 
of which have 4GB RAM and are running on dual 3GHZ cpus.

Any serious issues on output? Font handling?

All help much appreciated.

Best wishes,
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/24/2008 12:21:13 PM
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Derek Tree wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> Some of you may remember me from way back. I see that many of you are 
> still active here and hope you're all flourishing?
> 
> Now to bizness... I have decided to finally upgrade our ageing copies of 
> Quirk Depress 4.11 to 7 (and 8 when it ships). I have a number of 
> questions I can't find answers to on the world wide wait and hope that 
> some of the old timers will take pity on me and be able to help.
> ;-)
> 
Seriously Derek, WHY?

Quark has become a dinosaur, less than 1% of our work originates from 
Quark, and of that 1%, most is Quark 5 or earlier.

We've just upgraded 1 copy of Quark to 7.0 just to be able to support 
the occasional job that comes in that format.

When we get a Quark job now, we cringe, it's just so painful to use.

Indesign will open your Quark 4.x files, and you also get the latest 
Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat and Fireworks in the Design Premium.

After a few weeks of working with Indesign, I guarantee you'll never 
want to look at Quark again.


> 1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...

You know that Printing is an Operating system task, as long as you have 
the PPD for Quark to access all should work.

> 2. Will it recognise (and work with) ATM 4.1 Deluxe for Windoze (XP) or 
> do I need a new font mangler?

As long as ATM is enabling fonts at the OS level, Quark will have access 
to them

> 3. Will it support our font libraries (mainly Adobe, Bitstream and Lino 
> PS type 1 fonts)?

Shouldn't have any problems with legacy font types - not sure about 
Ligatures etc in OTF fonts.

> 4. Will it import PSD files from Photoshop 6.0 (yep, I'm out of date 
> with that one too)?

don't know

> 5. Will QX 8.0 import native ai files from Illustrator 8.0 (Yep, even 
> more out of date with that, too!)?
> 
can't help with this one either

> *For those who don't know this printer. It's a PS level 3 SRA3 color 
> laser we bought in late 2002. I think it was sold upto 2005 but don't 
> quote me...
> 
> A few general questions...
> 
> How fast does QX 7.0 run? We'll be sticking it on two Wintel boxes, both 
> of which have 4GB RAM and are running on dual 3GHZ cpus.
> 
With that much grunt, it should fly, but so will Indesign

How are you overcoming the 3GB limit - your not running 64bit Windows 
are you ?

> Any serious issues on output? Font handling?
> 
Lots of issues being reported WRT Quark's newer features

Here are some examples:

"Client provided a Quark 7 file with a spot color logo in a box with a 
white drop shadow applied in Quark. This is placed over a CMYK jpg image 
when I output the drop shadow is gone. Seems like it should be something 
easy but I'm not having any luck. It's like my 2nd monday this week. Any 
ideas???????"
__________________
Aaron (Dual2.5-G5_10.4.11, Prinergy 3.1.0.2.67, Preps 5.3)

===========================================

"found today that spot color dcs files linked in a quark 7 document 
cannot rip correctly on brisque 4.1.

is this accurate?

did minimal testing to get to this conclusion, but i'm out of ideas. 
tried deviceN + comp cmyk. neither of these cause the brisk to do an 
H.R. operation.

saved the same file i was working with down to quark 6 + all was well.
this seems bad."

===========================================

Is anyone else struggling to get consistent color out of Quark 7.x?

When you compare the values between the original application files to 
the refined PDF files, they are sometimes slightly different and 
sometimes drastically different. Tints built in Quark as well as 
Photoshop images stripped into the layout.

Somehow, Color Management is built into Quark 7 whether you like it or 
not. It's not like in 6 where you can just turn it off. In 7, you have 
to somehow set it up to not change anything. I have tried several 
different ways to set it up but have not come up with anything that 
works consistently! What seems to work for one file will not work for 
another!

We've tried printed the file "As Is", that doesn't seem to work.
We've tried building a color setup based on DeviceN but to emulate Quark 
legacy and that doesn't seem to work.
Etc, etc...

Someone please help me to get this right! PLEASE!
__________________
Jeff DeLaittre - Electronic Pre-Press



> All help much appreciated.
> 
> Best wishes,


All the best

Mike



0
mike7676 (33)
7/24/2008 1:44:00 PM
Hi Mike. Many thanks for the very full reply.

In message, Michael Powell wrote:
>Seriously Derek, WHY?

In a word, cost, Mike. Indesign standard costs �2,200 for 2 copies. 
Granted, we get Photoshop, Acrobat and Illustrator too, but it's still a 
lot of dosh to me at a time when dosh is thin on the ground. Quirk, 
OTOH, is costing us �558.00 for 2 copies - almost a quarter of the 
price.

Given that we use Quirk 70% of the time, Photoshop 20% of the time and 
Illustrator and Acrobat only 10% of the time, buying Quirk seems the 
more sensible option to me. But I could be proved wrong; I often am!
;-)

Now to your remaining comments...

>You know that Printing is an Operating system task, as long as you have 
>the PPD for Quark to access all should work.

Should be fine then, thanks. ;-)

>As long as ATM is enabling fonts at the OS level, Quark will have 
>access to them
It does. Though I had to fire up Office 97 and Wordpad to check that!

>Shouldn't have any problems with legacy font types - not sure about 
>Ligatures etc in OTF fonts.

Not big on ligatures. Our clients are animals when it comes to 
typography.

>With that much grunt, it should fly, but so will Indesign
Again, thanks for that.

>How are you overcoming the 3GB limit - your not running 64bit Windows 
>are you ?
Oppsss. I wasn't aware of such a limit. Shows you how out of touch I am 
with the real world... ;-)
Briefly reading up on this issue reveals that it's not clear-cut. One 
machine shows 3.5GB in system properties and the other 3.7GB, although 
they both have the same 4GB of installed RAM. Frankly, I'm not to 
bothered about it as both machines are quick enough in daily use.

>Lots of issues being reported WRT Quark's newer features
>Here are some examples:
>
>"Client provided a Quark 7 file with a spot color logo in a box with a 
>white drop shadow applied in Quark. This is placed over a CMYK jpg 
>image when I output the drop shadow is gone. Seems like it should be 
>something easy but I'm not having any luck. It's like my 2nd monday 
>this week. Any ideas???????"

Well...you know what my answer to that is going to be, don't you? Don't 
do it and you won't get such problems! I'm of the 'old school' as you 
know, so my spot logo would all be done in illy or photoshop and 
imported into Quirk as a flat EPS. Result: no output issues (one would 
hope!)

>"found today that spot color dcs files linked in a quark 7 document 
>cannot rip correctly on brisque 4.1.

Spot colours have always been tricky. Remember the silly naming issue 
between Illy and Quirk where importing an Illy file using PMS 999CV 
would add PMS0 99CV to a PMS 999C already in use?

I wouldn't expect Quirk 7 to handle spots any better than earlier 
versions and use appropriate workarounds.

>Somehow, Color Management is built into Quark 7 whether you like it or 
>not. It's not like in 6 where you can just turn it off. In 7, you have 
>to somehow set it up to not change anything. I have tried several 
>different ways to set it up but have not come up with anything that 
>works consistently! What seems to work for one file will not work for 
>another!

This is more worrying. Does it affect EPS too? Or just jpegs and TIFFs?

I just read this about Quirk 7 color management:
"Both Enable Access to image profiles and Color management of 
vectorEPS/PDF options are also best switched off."

Source: http://www.quark.com/quarkxtra/volume-01_issue-02/page3.html

That suggests to me that CM **CAN** be turned off for vector EPS images 
but not raster EPS. That could be a real PITA...

So what happens if you place a raster cmyk eps in Quirk without any 
profile? Does it receive some sort of default output profile 
automatically?

Does anyone have a clue whether version 8 will include the ability to 
turn CM off?

Best wishes,
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/24/2008 3:21:20 PM
On Jul 24, 10:21=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Mike. Many thanks for the very full reply.
>
> In message, Michael Powell wrote:
>
> >Seriously Derek, WHY?
>
> In a word, cost, Mike. Indesign standard costs =A32,200 for 2 copies.
> Granted, we get Photoshop, Acrobat and Illustrator too, but it's still a
> lot of dosh to me at a time when dosh is thin on the ground. Quirk,
> OTOH, is costing us =A3558.00 for 2 copies - almost a quarter of the
> price.
>

Won't they do some type of competitive upgrade?
0
texan767 (52)
7/24/2008 3:59:39 PM
In message, Mikey <texan767@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>Won't they do some type of competitive upgrade?
Not that I'm aware of.
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/24/2008 5:32:04 PM
On Jul 24, 12:32=A0pm, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> In message, Mikey <texan...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >Won't they do some type of competitive upgrade?
>
> Not that I'm aware of.
> --
> Derek Tree

Have you asked?
Most of the software companies would cut you some slack if you used a
competitor's software.
I'd say a move from Quirk to Indesign would be a good one!
0
texan767 (52)
7/24/2008 8:08:32 PM
Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote in 
news:W6yg9aXw3JiIFw6D@noonehere.com:

> Hi Mike. Many thanks for the very full reply.
> 
> In message, Michael Powell wrote:
>>Seriously Derek, WHY?
> 
> In a word, cost, Mike. Indesign standard costs �2,200 for 2 copies. 
> Granted, we get Photoshop, Acrobat and Illustrator too, but it's still a 
> lot of dosh to me at a time when dosh is thin on the ground. Quirk, 
> OTOH, is costing us �558.00 for 2 copies - almost a quarter of the 
> price.
> 
> Given that we use Quirk 70% of the time, Photoshop 20% of the time and 
> Illustrator and Acrobat only 10% of the time, buying Quirk seems the 
> more sensible option to me. But I could be proved wrong; I often am!
> ;-)

I dunno, Del - I use Photoshop a lot more than you, but I don't believe ANY 
layout artist can get by without it. Or Illy. Or Acrobat Pro. That's why the 
packages are such a good value over QXP.

For your other questions, I'd like to address this one as an example:

> Any serious issues on output? Font handling?

QXP is limited to the craptacular font support of Windows. Adobe software has 
it's own scheme. You asked if QXP will support your Adobe, Bitstream and Lino 
font libraries and a font manager - modern Adobe software will. No, that's 
not quite right - modern Adobe software will allow you to install them ALL AT 
THE SAME TIME. Many thousands of typefaces. Without slowing down your system 
or causing odd crashes.

The Creative Suite rocks. Quark, well - no regrets with the arrogant pricks.

0
ericvgill (473)
7/25/2008 1:59:54 AM
On Jul 24, 8:21=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> Some of you may remember me from way back. I see that many of you are
> still active here and hope you're all flourishing?
>
> Now to bizness... I have decided to finally upgrade our ageing copies of
> Quirk Depress 4.11 to 7 (and 8 when it ships). I have a number of
> questions I can't find answers to on the world wide wait and hope that
> some of the old timers will take pity on me and be able to help.

If you choose to use Quark when you've a choice otherwise, you deserve
pity.

Last year, Quark XPress crashed on me 207 times, InDesign, 39.

When I last was using Quark 7 I found the Word .doc importer was
hopelessly broken and had to work up an XTags import routine for a job
which I'd been doing for years in Quark 6, and Quark 7 exhibited
bizarre behaviours which made paging in it a nightmare (numbered lists
would alter where the numbers would appear under Byzantinely specific
circumstances, e.g,  adding a discretionary hyphen in the left column
(which didn't change the number of lines the paragraph made up) would
change the numbered list in the right column).

Believe me, the damage to your sanity and workflow and the time you
will lose to crashes and troubleshooting and leaving your desk to find
something other than your keyboard to hit pale in comparison to the
price differential between Quark and InDesign. Get InDesign even if
you have to mortgage your home or empty out your 401K.

Consider this: Quark bundled OpenType fonts w/ Quark 6, even though
Quark 6 (and 7) strip the hinting out of OpenType fonts when placing
them in a PostScript stream, and even though they were bundled w/
Quark 6, Quark now refuses to support OpenType font usage in Quark 6,
even though they've made an XTension specifically to suppress the
bogus corrupt font warnings which it generates when one tries to use
them.

Go read the Quark Support Forums http://forums.quark.com/ before
considering ``upgrading'' --- if you can make it all the way to the
end and still want to purchase Quark 7, I'll buy it for you --- if
you'll provide me w/ the names of all your competitors so that I can
invest in them.

William

0
willadams (1425)
7/25/2008 2:45:37 AM
Hi all,
Many thanks for the very helpful and detailed responses.

In message, Mikey writes:

>Have you asked?
Yep.

>Most of the software companies would cut you some slack if you used a
>competitor's software.
Not Adobe UK for a tinpot shop like mine. ;-)
However...my wife is due to enrol in college later this year so it may 
be possible to obtain a substantial discount through educational 
pricing...
;-)

In message, Eric Gill <ericvgill@yahoo.com> writes:
>I dunno, Del - I use Photoshop a lot more than you, but I don't believe ANY
>layout artist can get by without it. Or Illy. Or Acrobat Pro. That's why the
>packages are such a good value over QXP.

I can't disagree. The information William (Adams) provided really 
clinched it for me. I freely admit I hadn't thought the decision through 
thoroughly enough. I have looked and the Quirk support forums and what 
struck me was not so much the volume of issues being raised by users 
(although they were legion), but the paucity of solutions offered by 
either fellow users or Quirk staff. That was rather shocking and 
worrying... But I guess a leopard doesn't change it's spots, does it?

You'll all be pleased to hear that I have just cancelled the order for 
Quirk 7 I placed yesterday. I will muddle on with version 4.11 until 
later in the year (see above) when (hopefully) I can buy 3 copies of CS3 
standard for rather less than the current asking price of �895.00 a pop.

Given the deteriorating economic situation, huge hikes in utility and 
(petrol) gas prices, spiraling living expenses, etc, I can't justify 
spending �1,700 right now. If I do, my wife will demand a new bathroom!

I take it from all your comments that almost **noone** on the group is 
using Quirk except to handle the odd incoming job?

How times have changed! Does anyone have any stats for the current 
market share of Indesign v Quirk in the US? I think it must be 80 - 20% 
here in the UK.
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/25/2008 10:32:41 AM
On Jul 25, 6:32=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi all,
> Many thanks for the very helpful and detailed responses.

My pleasure. Thanks for giving me a chance to vent.

<big snip>

> I take it from all your comments that almost **noone** on the group is
> using Quirk except to handle the odd incoming job?

More's the pity, that's not the case here at work, hence my vehemence
--- we've got one contract which specifies Quark v6 (which is a real
problem 'cause Quark 6 doesn't work well in Leopard and we've started
to need to replace machines and no one listened to my suggestion that
we stock up on machines running Tiger when they were available on
close out)

William

0
willadams (1425)
7/25/2008 11:07:59 AM
In article <T8sBctCJvaiIFwKc@noonehere.com>, Derek Tree
<derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> I take it from all your comments that almost **noone** on the group is 
> using Quirk except to handle the odd incoming job?

We switched all our production boxes from Xpress 4.11 to InD 2 way back
when. We have one copy of Xpress that gets dusted off a couple of times
a month, but that's it.

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/25/2008 1:24:04 PM
Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote in
news:T8sBctCJvaiIFwKc@noonehere.com: 

> In message, Eric Gill <ericvgill@yahoo.com> writes:
>>I dunno, Del - I use Photoshop a lot more than you, but I don't
>>believe ANY layout artist can get by without it. Or Illy. Or Acrobat
>>Pro. That's why the packages are such a good value over QXP.
> 
> I can't disagree. The information William (Adams) provided really 
> clinched it for me.

Great news. Now we won't have to mention killer features like GREP, or 
the plethora of little tweaks and extras that make Indy so brilliant.

> I freely admit I hadn't thought the decision
> through thoroughly enough. I have looked and the Quirk support forums
> and what struck me was not so much the volume of issues being raised
> by users (although they were legion), but the paucity of solutions
> offered by either fellow users or Quirk staff. That was rather
> shocking and worrying... But I guess a leopard doesn't change it's
> spots, does it? 

Well, yes and no. You could guess the direction things were going after 
Tim Gill's stabilizing influence went away. He and Ibrahimi had balanced 
each other pretty well, people man and money man. Quark's descent into 
corporate hell is reflected in the user experience.

<snip>

> I take it from all your comments that almost **noone** on the group is
> using Quirk except to handle the odd incoming job?

I've kept a single license current. That may change since the advent of a 
good plugin (third-party, so it will cost some) that does a pretty good 
job of opening modern QXP docs in Indy. But then I don't have to exchange 
native files with anyone.

> How times have changed! Does anyone have any stats for the current 
> market share of Indesign v Quirk in the US? I think it must be 80 -
> 20% here in the UK.

Impossible to tell. Quark is a privately held company - any sales figures 
they care to release aren't going to be reliable, to say the least.

From the completed ads I get for magazines, I'd guess Indy has the 
majority in the U.S., though they seem to be big in workgroup solutions.

One good thing - it looks like RageMaker is finally dead, even in 
holdouts like nonprofits. And Publisher is nearly as moribund. Two down, 
one more to go...

0
leeoving (11)
7/25/2008 1:59:56 PM
In message, Lee Oswald Ving <leeoving@yahoo.com> writes:
>You could guess the direction things were going after
>Tim Gill's stabilizing influence went away

Agreed. Having enjoyed (if that is the right word) a love/hate 
relationship with Quirk since 1994 I must admit to a smidgin of regret 
at its decline and fall. I guess it's a bit like being in an abusive 
relationship. Despite the pain and humiliation it's hard to quit.
;-)

>One good thing - it looks like RageMaker is finally dead, even in
>holdouts like nonprofits. And Publisher is nearly as moribund. Two down,
>one more to go...

What about Serif PagePlus? I remember evaluating that way back when 
Microshaft Pubslasher was the tool of choice for office secretaries 
convinced that graphic design and page layout were well within the 
capabilities of anyone armed with a PC. If memory serves it was by no 
means bad (Page Plus that is, not Pubslasher). I have no idea what the 
current version is like but their website proudly proclaims that 
PagePlus X3 will:

* Produce professional press-ready PDF/X-1a files
* Easily include all fonts and graphics used in your PDF
* Import and edit EPS Postscript� vector graphics
* Output CMYK and spot colours, with print calibration marks

Wow! And all this for just $99.99!!! ;p

A final question on Indy. Is the feature set identical across platforms? 
I note that Quirk 7.0 still seems to favour the Mac?
Much as I love Macs (our old G4 867 is still going strong) we now 
exclusively use PC's for production.

-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/25/2008 2:44:14 PM
On Jul 25, 10:44=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> In message, Lee Oswald Ving <leeov...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >You could guess the direction things were going after
> >Tim Gill's stabilizing influence went away
>
> Agreed. Having enjoyed (if that is the right word) a love/hate
> relationship with Quirk since 1994 I must admit to a smidgin of regret
> at its decline and fall. I guess it's a bit like being in an abusive
> relationship. Despite the pain and humiliation it's hard to quit.
> ;-)
>
> >One good thing - it looks like RageMaker is finally dead, even in
> >holdouts like nonprofits. And Publisher is nearly as moribund. Two down,
> >one more to go...

Well, to be fair, PageMaker was pretty much replaced by InDesign
(that's what the PageMaker pack was all about). That said, I hope
Quark gets its act together so as to provide decent competition so
that ID doesn't become a monopoly.

There's still Scribus to play 'round w/ though, and some people are
having success w/ it.

RagTime is still holding on though, as is Ready, Set Go!, and of
course on Macs there's Apple's Pages.app (which is not the same as the
NeXT app Pages by Pages Corporation and sadly PasteUp.app didn't
survive the demise of Yellow Box), while on the gripping hand, if one
isn't using a Mac there's Adobe FrameMaker. Calamus also seems to
still be around --- anything else I'm missing?

> What about Serif PagePlus? I remember evaluating that way back when
> Microshaft Pubslasher was the tool of choice for office secretaries
> convinced that graphic design and page layout were well within the
> capabilities of anyone armed with a PC. If memory serves it was by no
> means bad (Page Plus that is, not Pubslasher). I have no idea what the
> current version is like but their website proudly proclaims that
> PagePlus X3 will:
>
> * Produce professional press-ready PDF/X-1a files
> * Easily include all fonts and graphics used in your PDF
> * Import and edit EPS Postscript=AE vector graphics
> * Output CMYK and spot colours, with print calibration marks
>
> Wow! And all this for just $99.99!!! ;p

PagePlus has always struck me as pretty decent given the price. The
two jobs I can recall having seen in it processed fine.

> A final question on Indy. Is the feature set identical across platforms?

Yes, except that only PCs get vbscripting, while only Macs get
Applescripting (use javascript for cross-platform stuff).

> I note that Quirk 7.0 still seems to favour the Mac?
> Much as I love Macs (our old G4 867 is still going strong) we now
> exclusively use PC's for production.

Funny way to favour a platform if it is --- unfortunately almost all
of major apps are done w/ proprietary cross-platform toolkits so often
don't take full advantage of special platform-specific technologies
(Adobe, yes, I'm talking 'bout you and your lack of support for design
axes in AAT fonts like Skia).

William

0
willadams (1425)
7/25/2008 3:19:37 PM
In article <semik.16295$mh5.282@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com>, Neil Gould
<neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:

> Adobe has a long history of making sure that their apps are consistent
> across platforms.

As long as you ignore Acrobat...

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/25/2008 3:37:05 PM
In message, Neil Gould writes
>Hi Derek,
Hi Neil. Nice to see you still hanging in here. How long is it now? 
Seems like an eternity. Where is Mr Shagnasty these days?

Enough banter...

>However, I have to ask: Why would you care, unless you are planning to
>accept native files from clients?

I care only inasmuch as I don't wish to be deprived of extra goodies 
just because I am not a fully paid-up member of the Holy Mother Church 
of St Jobs the Evangelist. ;-))

William said:
>Funny way to favour a platform if it is ---

I said 'much as I love Macs' not that I 'favour them.' A subtle 
distinction but an important one. ;-)

Truth to tell, I never did really warm to OSX even though it's on the 
Powerbook I take to meetings with clients. I much prefer 9.2. If only 
Apple had stuck with it... Bugger, now I've opened up a can of worms!

-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/25/2008 4:16:10 PM
On Jul 25, 12:16=A0pm, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> In message, Neil Gould writes>Hi Derek,
>
> Hi Neil. Nice to see you still hanging in here. How long is it now?
> Seems like an eternity. Where is Mr Shagnasty these days?
>
> Enough banter...
>
> >However, I have to ask: Why would you care, unless you are planning to
> >accept native files from clients?
>
> I care only inasmuch as I don't wish to be deprived of extra goodies
> just because I am not a fully paid-up member of the Holy Mother Church
> of St Jobs the Evangelist. ;-))
>
> William said:
>
> >Funny way to favour a platform if it is ---
>
> I said 'much as I love Macs' not that I 'favour them.' A subtle
> distinction but an important one. ;-)
>
> Truth to tell, I never did really warm to OSX even though it's on the
> Powerbook I take to meetings with clients. I much prefer 9.2. If only
> Apple had stuck with it... Bugger, now I've opened up a can of worms!

If Quark XPress ``favoured'' Mac OS X, it'd support Mac OS X-specific
technologies like Services, Apple Advanced Typography, &c. The only
nod towards that sort of thing is AppleScript support (which predates
OS X), and which is intentionally crippled in many ways (e.g., can't
script Collect for output).

William

0
willadams (1425)
7/25/2008 4:45:22 PM
On Jul 24, 8:21=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> Some of you may remember me from way back. I see that many of you are
> still active here and hope you're all flourishing?
>
> Now to bizness... I have decided to finally upgrade our ageing copies of
> Quirk Depress 4.11 to 7 (and 8 when it ships). I have a number of
> questions I can't find answers to on the world wide wait and hope that
> some of the old timers will take pity on me and be able to help.
> ;-)
>
> 1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...
> 2. Will it recognise (and work with) ATM 4.1 Deluxe for Windoze (XP) or
> do I need a new font mangler?
> 3. Will it support our font libraries (mainly Adobe, Bitstream and Lino
> PS type 1 fonts)?
> 4. Will it import PSD files from Photoshop 6.0 (yep, I'm out of date
> with that one too)?
> 5. Will QX 8.0 import native ai files from Illustrator 8.0 (Yep, even
> more out of date with that, too!)?
>
> *For those who don't know this printer. It's a PS level 3 SRA3 color
> laser we bought in late 2002. I think it was sold upto 2005 but don't
> quote me...
>
> A few general questions...
>
> How fast does QX 7.0 run? We'll be sticking it on two Wintel boxes, both
> of which have 4GB RAM and are running on dual 3GHZ cpus.
>
> Any serious issues on output? Font handling?
>
> All help much appreciated.
>
> Best wishes,
> --
> Derek Tree

Seems the only time there's any decent banter in this group anymore is
when Dell pokes his nose in.

Keith
0
sooke2004 (54)
7/25/2008 5:39:24 PM
Hi Derek,

"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
>
> A final question on Indy. Is the feature set identical across platforms?
> I note that Quirk 7.0 still seems to favour the Mac?
> Much as I love Macs (our old G4 867 is still going strong) we now
> exclusively use PC's for production.
>
Adobe has a long history of making sure that their apps are consistent
across platforms. That said, there may be a difference in 3rd party add-ons
and options that might make one platform preferable to another for specific
uses, but that would be outside of Adobe's control.

However, I have to ask: Why would you care, unless you are planning to
accept native files from clients? The few folks that want to send me native
files I send elsewhere, telling them that it would be less expensive to give
me their ideas on a napkin than for me to clean up their misconceptions
about how to use ID. There is little reason to supply native files to anyone
at this point... PDF is a mature technology that any viable shop can deal
with. I see it as a litmus test.  ;-)

Best,

Neil



0
neil9133 (816)
7/25/2008 6:21:49 PM
In message, keith <sooke2004@yahoo.com> writes:
>Seems the only time there's any decent banter in this group anymore is
>when Dell pokes his nose in.

Hi Keith, you're too kind...
;-)

I shall do my best to pop in here more regularly from now on, but given 
that I seem to be about ten years behind the times, there's a limited 
part I can play, aside, of course, from providing some amusement.

FWIW, bulletin boards and so-called 'Social networking' sites seem to 
have sounded the death knell of usenet. Which is a pity as CPP remains 
an incomparable resource for all things print and pre-press and the 
'tone' of the club is so much more refined than most fora on the 
interweb.
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/25/2008 7:23:16 PM
Hi Derek,

"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eJ8SRhDKxfiIFwY7@noonehere.com...
> In message, Neil Gould writes
> >Hi Derek,
> Hi Neil. Nice to see you still hanging in here. How long is it now?
> Seems like an eternity. Where is Mr Shagnasty these days?
>
It certainly has been too long. Elmo shows up every now and then, and I
wouldn't be surprised if he pops into this thread.

> >However, I have to ask: Why would you care, unless you are planning to
> >accept native files from clients?
>
> I care only inasmuch as I don't wish to be deprived of extra goodies
> just because I am not a fully paid-up member of the Holy Mother Church
> of St Jobs the Evangelist. ;-))
>
ID and the other CS offerings are capable of getting someone in well over
their head without extra goodies. For the typical non-technical designer,
they are more than enough on their own... so much so that I'd say that if
you can't do it within those apps, it doesn't need doing. Unfortunately not
necessarily the case for those of us who do technical publications.

> William said:
> >Funny way to favour a platform if it is ---
>
> I said 'much as I love Macs' not that I 'favour them.' A subtle
> distinction but an important one. ;-)
>
> Truth to tell, I never did really warm to OSX even though it's on the
> Powerbook I take to meetings with clients. I much prefer 9.2. If only
> Apple had stuck with it... Bugger, now I've opened up a can of worms!
>
Frankly, I think that both OS-X and Windows have evolved along the lines of
corporate promotion -- they have been elevated beyond their useful
capability.

Neil


0
neil9133 (816)
7/25/2008 8:00:58 PM
In article <1VHYmLEkgiiIFwtM@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> In message, keith <sooke2004@yahoo.com> writes:
> >Seems the only time there's any decent banter in this group anymore is
> >when Dell pokes his nose in.
> 
> Hi Keith, you're too kind...
> ;-)
> 
> I shall do my best to pop in here more regularly from now on, but given 
> that I seem to be about ten years behind the times, there's a limited 
> part I can play, aside, of course, from providing some amusement.
> 
> FWIW, bulletin boards and so-called 'Social networking' sites seem to 
> have sounded the death knell of usenet. Which is a pity as CPP remains 
> an incomparable resource for all things print and pre-press and the 
> 'tone' of the club is so much more refined than most fora on the 
> interweb.

I think it's more obscurity and technical ignorance that keeps people 
away from Usenet.  That and the fact that many online forums mirror 
specific Usenet groups to a topic, so there's no incentive to come here.

Mostly just old farts who keep monitoring with a noob coming by every so 
often.

Even with some history, I prefer Usenet.  I find it extremely irritating 
to have my patronage used to sell ads (to me even!) or worse, moved to a 
proprietary forum format with all sorts of contortions required to 
participate as I did in past times.

I don't contribute to Print Planet forums any more for that reason.  

- Allen
0
awessels1 (257)
7/25/2008 8:18:20 PM
In article <W6yg9aXw3JiIFw6D@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> In a word, cost, Mike. Indesign standard costs �2,200 for 2 copies. 
> Granted, we get Photoshop, Acrobat and Illustrator too, but it's still a 
> lot of dosh to me at a time when dosh is thin on the ground. Quirk, 
> OTOH, is costing us �558.00 for 2 copies - almost a quarter of the 
> price.

Are you saying that you CANNOT acquire InDesign by itself, outside of 
the Suite?

Are you honestly comparing a single-task program, Quark, with the entire 
Adobe CS?

That's rubbish.  InDesign CS3, by itself, retails for US$699.  I found 
that at amazon.com.

Hmmm, and at amazon.co.uk, I see it selling new for UK pounds 434.

868 for 2 copies of InD vs. 558 for 2 copies of Quark--you're WAY ahead 
moving to InDesign, so that price difference is well worth it.

You're the type that knows the price of everything, and the value of 
nothing.
0
elmop (1209)
7/25/2008 8:52:09 PM
In article <elmop-7001DE.16520925072008@news.x-privat.org>,
 "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:


> 868 for 2 copies of InD vs. 558 for 2 copies of Quark--you're WAY ahead 
> moving to InDesign, so that price difference is well worth it.
> 
> You're the type that knows the price of everything, and the value of 
> nothing.

That's an interesting assertion given that you're advocating he take a 
probable productivity hit moving to InDesign AND spend more dollars to 
do so.

Moot since he's likely taking the groupmind advice and moving to Adobe 
anyway.

Always nice to see irony posted though.

- Allen
0
awessels1 (257)
7/25/2008 9:08:20 PM
In article <elmop-7001DE.16520925072008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P.
Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

> You're the type that knows the price of everything, and the value of 
> nothing.

Nice to see you've managed to keep your people skills.

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/25/2008 10:26:09 PM
On Jul 25, 3:23=A0pm, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> In message, keith <sooke2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >Seems the only time there's any decent banter in this group anymore is
> >when Dell pokes his nose in.
>
> Hi Keith, you're too kind...
> ;-)
>
> I shall do my best to pop in here more regularly from now on, but given
> that I seem to be about ten years behind the times, there's a limited
> part I can play, aside, of course, from providing some amusement.
>
> FWIW, bulletin boards and so-called 'Social networking' sites seem to
> have sounded the death knell of usenet. Which is a pity as CPP remains
> an incomparable resource for all things print and pre-press and the
> 'tone' of the club is so much more refined than most fora on the
> interweb.
> --
> Derek Tree

I didn't mean to be kind. It's bad for my image :)
Keith
0
sooke2004 (54)
7/25/2008 11:37:04 PM
On Jul 25, 4:18=A0pm, Allen Wessels <awess...@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <1VHYmLEkgiiIF...@noonehere.com>,
> =A0Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In message, keith <sooke2...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > >Seems the only time there's any decent banter in this group anymore is
> > >when Dell pokes his nose in.
>
> > Hi Keith, you're too kind...
> > ;-)
>
> > I shall do my best to pop in here more regularly from now on, but given
> > that I seem to be about ten years behind the times, there's a limited
> > part I can play, aside, of course, from providing some amusement.
>
> > FWIW, bulletin boards and so-called 'Social networking' sites seem to
> > have sounded the death knell of usenet. Which is a pity as CPP remains
> > an incomparable resource for all things print and pre-press and the
> > 'tone' of the club is so much more refined than most fora on the
> > interweb.
>
> I think it's more obscurity and technical ignorance that keeps people
> away from Usenet. =A0That and the fact that many online forums mirror
> specific Usenet groups to a topic, so there's no incentive to come here.
>
> Mostly just old farts who keep monitoring with a noob coming by every so
> often.
>
> Even with some history, I prefer Usenet. =A0I find it extremely irritatin=
g
> to have my patronage used to sell ads (to me even!) or worse, moved to a
> proprietary forum format with all sorts of contortions required to
> participate as I did in past times.
>
> I don't contribute to Print Planet forums any more for that reason. =A0
>
> - Allen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Agreed. There's very few people I speak with that have even heard of
usenet.
Back to topic; I think the last Quark file I saw was about 1 1/2 years
ago. But then most of my customers are MS Office users. A lot of the
files I see from clients are useless for print and I end up re-
creating it so it will work. The same is true when I get Illustrator
and Photoshop files. I'm always amazed at the number of redundent
layers I see in Illustrator files. I often end up throwing out half
the file. I could just disable the layers that aren't required, but it
bugs me that they're even there. I like neat and organized. Probably a
carry over from my film stripping days.
Keith
0
sooke2004 (54)
7/25/2008 11:46:19 PM
In article <250720081626099465%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>,
 Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

> In article <elmop-7001DE.16520925072008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P.
> Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> 
> > You're the type that knows the price of everything, and the value of 
> > nothing.
> 
> Nice to see you've managed to keep your people skills.

Nice to know you're happy in a world where Del blatantly spins a 
comparison of the price of the entire Creative Suite to one-trick-pony 
Quark, and you don't call him on it.

Of course, there's always the possibility that you didn't catch that 
little factoid...
0
elmop (1209)
7/26/2008 1:32:41 AM
In article 
<awessels-32E5BF.14082025072008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
 Allen Wessels <awessels@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:

> > 868 for 2 copies of InD vs. 558 for 2 copies of Quark--you're WAY ahead 
> > moving to InDesign, so that price difference is well worth it.
> > 
> > You're the type that knows the price of everything, and the value of 
> > nothing.
> 
> That's an interesting assertion given that you're advocating he take a 
> probable productivity hit moving to InDesign AND spend more dollars to 
> do so.

Most long term gain requires short term pain.

Staying with Quark is a short term gain that will create long term pain.
0
elmop (1209)
7/26/2008 1:33:20 AM
In article 
<awessels-68DBEA.13182025072008@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>,
 Allen Wessels <awessels@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:

> Even with some history, I prefer Usenet.  I find it extremely irritating 
> to have my patronage used to sell ads (to me even!)

One word:  Firefox.
0
elmop (1209)
7/26/2008 1:33:51 AM
In article <elmop-B32A3C.21324025072008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P.
Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

> Nice to know you're happy in a world where Del blatantly spins a 
> comparison of the price of the entire Creative Suite to one-trick-pony 
> Quark, and you don't call him on it.

He was quite clear about what apple he was comparing to what orange.

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/26/2008 3:17:48 AM
Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote in 
news:VIBABiB+aeiIFwoS@noonehere.com:


>>One good thing - it looks like RageMaker is finally dead, even in
>>holdouts like nonprofits. And Publisher is nearly as moribund. Two down,
>>one more to go...
> 
> What about Serif PagePlus? 

Never had a submission. But then I'm on the other side of The Pond, where 
the market is simpler.

> 
> Wow! And all this for just $99.99!!! ;p

Yep.

> A final question on Indy. Is the feature set identical across platforms?

Aside from scripting (and most scripters that release to the public seem to 
favor Java for the cross-platform benefit), Mac Creative Suites enjoy the 
added benefit of being able to use PC Type 1 and TTF fonts, whereas the PC 
cannot use Mac-specific typefaces. (OTF being cross-platform by nature).

> I note that Quirk 7.0 still seems to favour the Mac?

I dunno - haven't used it as a layout package since the disaster of 6.x and 
the advent of Indy CS. Blech.

0
ericvgill (473)
7/26/2008 6:47:36 AM
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
B32A3C.21324025072008@news.x-privat.org:

> In article <250720081626099465%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>,
>  Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
> 
>> In article <elmop-7001DE.16520925072008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P.
>> Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > You're the type that knows the price of everything, and the value of 
>> > nothing.
>> 
>> Nice to see you've managed to keep your people skills.
> 
> Nice to know you're happy in a world where Del blatantly spins a 
> comparison of the price of the entire Creative Suite to one-trick-pony 
> Quark, and you don't call him on it.
> 
> Of course, there's always the possibility that you didn't catch that 
> little factoid...

I caught it. Of course, I didn't make it out to be some sort of intentional 
dishonesty or moral failing on his part, either.

Get a grip, dude.

0
ericvgill (473)
7/26/2008 6:49:21 AM
In message, Elmo P. Shagnasty writes
>Nice to know you're happy in a world where Del blatantly spins a
>comparison of the price of the entire Creative Suite to one-trick-pony
>Quark, and you don't call him on it.

Elmo, my boy, It's nice to see that **you** haven't lost your inimitable 
knack of grasping the wrong end of the casting stick, turning it around 
and then promptly dropping it on your foot.

If you'd been paying attention you'd realise that my questions were not 
so much about comparisons, but rather updating/upgrading our page layout 
software. As such, InDesign, on it's own, is unlikely to serve that 
purpose as we would probably have to update/upgrade our ancient versions 
of Illustrator, Acrobat and Photoshop to play ball with CS3.

I'm also sure that Allen is correct about the 'productivity hit' 
involved in switching at this late stage. The last version of Indesign 
(2) I played with (kindly provided by Ms Coquet of this very group), was 
relatively easy to get to grips with. I doubt that CS3 is anything like 
as 'Quirk friendly.'

Do *try* to keep up Elmo...
;-)

Now, back to our main feature...


-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/26/2008 9:25:02 AM
In message, Allen Wessels writes:

>I think it's more obscurity and technical ignorance that keeps people
>away from Usenet.  That and the fact that many online forums mirror
>specific Usenet groups to a topic, so there's no incentive to come here.

That's a very valid point.

>Even with some history, I prefer Usenet.  I find it extremely irritating
>to have my patronage used to sell ads (to me even!) or worse, moved to a
>proprietary forum format with all sorts of contortions required to
>participate as I did in past times.

Despite Elmo's helpful advice to use Firefox (which, incidentally I've 
been using since he was in short pants), it is regretfully true that 
most bulletin boards run ads, even if they are only limited to Google 
adsense.

What is perhaps more irritating and disheartening is that most boards 
quickly collect a core cabal of dysfunctional lickspittles who, together 
with the owner(s) run the place like a concentration camp.
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/26/2008 9:35:17 AM
In message, Neil Gould <neil@myplaceofwork.com> writes:

>Not so. InDesign will read those older formats just fine.
Ily 8.0, Photoshop 6.0 and Acrobat 5?

If so, that's very encouraging and may persuade me to raid the cookie 
jar sooner than anticipated.

As I see it, the major drawback in purchasing Indesign rather than the 
entire suite is that it will cost more in the longer term to upgrade our 
other Adobe apps.
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/26/2008 10:14:59 AM
In article <oJbfhAEV$uiIFwPV@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> Despite Elmo's helpful advice to use Firefox (which, incidentally I've 
> been using since he was in short pants),

Hardly.

I'm probably older than you, Del.
0
elmop (1209)
7/26/2008 1:04:04 PM
In article <F4FENfCu1uiIFwJL@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> If you'd been paying attention you'd realise that my questions were not 
> so much about comparisons, but rather updating/upgrading our page layout 
> software. As such, InDesign, on it's own, is unlikely to serve that 
> purpose as we would probably have to update/upgrade our ancient versions 
> of Illustrator, Acrobat and Photoshop to play ball with CS3.

At which point you then compared the price of two copies of the entire 
suite to the price of two copies of Quark.

Face it, Del.  You were caught with your pants down.
0
elmop (1209)
7/26/2008 1:05:05 PM
In article <Xns9AE7128712F38ericvgillyahoocom@208.49.80.60>,
 Eric Gill <ericvgill@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Nice to know you're happy in a world where Del blatantly spins a 
> > comparison of the price of the entire Creative Suite to one-trick-pony 
> > Quark, and you don't call him on it.
> > 
> > Of course, there's always the possibility that you didn't catch that 
> > little factoid...
> 
> I caught it. Of course, I didn't make it out to be some sort of intentional 
> dishonesty or moral failing on his part, either.

Moral failing?  No.

Intentional dishonesty?  Well, when someone spins that blatantly, it's 
either because he's REALLY stupid (not Del), trying hard to fool himself 
into something he thinks he wants (probably Del), or a salesman trying 
to sell something.

I can see the Quark salesman making that spin, but we'd be letting Del 
down if we let him stick his head in the sand and try to convince 
himself that buying two copies of Quark is really "cheaper" than buying 
two copies of the entire Creative Suite.

Hey, this GM engine is cheaper than an entire BMW.  Clearly, one should 
go with the GM engine.  Right?  I mean, if it's all about price...
0
elmop (1209)
7/26/2008 1:07:43 PM
"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote in message
news:F4FENfCu1uiIFwJL@noonehere.com...
>
> If you'd been paying attention you'd realise that my questions were not
> so much about comparisons, but rather updating/upgrading our page layout
> software. As such, InDesign, on it's own, is unlikely to serve that
> purpose as we would probably have to update/upgrade our ancient versions
> of Illustrator, Acrobat and Photoshop to play ball with CS3.
>
Not so. InDesign will read those older formats just fine. Of course, you
don't get full bells and whistles of the newer versions, but then, you
wouldn't get them by staying with Quirk, either. The most important shift
would be Illustrator >= v10's support for DeviceN (if I recall, v8 didn't
have that, but if I'm wrong, even there you wouldn't miss much).

Neil


0
neil9133 (816)
7/26/2008 1:07:51 PM
In article <250720082117489457%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>,
 Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

> In article <elmop-B32A3C.21324025072008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P.
> Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> 
> > Nice to know you're happy in a world where Del blatantly spins a 
> > comparison of the price of the entire Creative Suite to one-trick-pony 
> > Quark, and you don't call him on it.
> 
> He was quite clear about what apple he was comparing to what orange.

Quite clear, eh?

In article <W6yg9aXw3JiIFw6D@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> In message, Michael Powell wrote:
> >Seriously Derek, WHY?
> 
> In a word, cost, Mike. Indesign standard costs �2,200 for 2 copies. 
> Granted, we get Photoshop, Acrobat and Illustrator too, but it's still a 
> lot of dosh to me at a time when dosh is thin on the ground. Quirk, 
> OTOH, is costing us �558.00 for 2 copies - almost a quarter of the 
> price.

Del was wrong.  InDesign Standard, by itself, does NOT cost 2200 pounds.  
As Del says, "granted, we get Photoshop, Acrobat and Illustrator too..."

OK, so Del admits 2200 pounds is the price of two copies of the ENTIRE 
CREATIVE SUITE.

Then Del goes on to say that "Quirk, OTOH, is costing us 558 pounds for 
2 copies--almost a quarter of the price."

Del makes a price comparison that's apples to speedboats.  Del managed 
to IGNORE the price of InDesign by itself.

Nowhere did Del even bring up the concept of looking into the price of 
InDesign by itself.

Del wants so badly to stick with Quark that he's comparing the price of 
the entire Creative Suite to the price of Quark.

So, Dave, in a way you're right:  Del was quite clear about what apple 
he was comparing to what orange.  But then I read the rest of what he 
had to say.
0
elmop (1209)
7/26/2008 1:15:08 PM
In article <elmop-E9E45C.09150826072008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P.
Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

> So, Dave, in a way you're right:  Del was quite clear about what apple 
> he was comparing to what orange.  But then I read the rest of what he 
> had to say.

Okay, Elmo. You can have the last word. I know what that means to you.

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/26/2008 2:27:00 PM
"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote in message
news:io2N5HFjkviIFw9w@noonehere.com...
> In message, Neil Gould <neil@myplaceofwork.com> writes:
>
> >Not so. InDesign will read those older formats just fine.
> Ily 8.0, Photoshop 6.0 and Acrobat 5?
>
> If so, that's very encouraging and may persuade me to raid the cookie
> jar sooner than anticipated.
>
> As I see it, the major drawback in purchasing Indesign rather than the
> entire suite is that it will cost more in the longer term to upgrade our
> other Adobe apps.
>
True, but it provides a "pay as you go" scheme that can get you up and
running faster.

You also can select to upgrade those other apps on an as-needed basis, and
considering the usage figures you posted earlier it would be the way I'd go.

Neil


0
neil9133 (816)
7/26/2008 3:32:04 PM
In message, Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> writes:
>I'm probably older than you, Del.

What? 84? <rolleyes>
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/26/2008 6:40:38 PM
In article <260720080827002182%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>,
 Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

> In article <elmop-E9E45C.09150826072008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P.
> Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> 
> > So, Dave, in a way you're right:  Del was quite clear about what apple 
> > he was comparing to what orange.  But then I read the rest of what he 
> > had to say.
> 
> Okay, Elmo. You can have the last word. I know what that means to you.

And we all know what it means to you to ignore what was actually said, 
and reply to things you think were said.

0
elmop (1209)
7/27/2008 12:12:11 PM
In article <JhHXrDGm+2iIFwp4@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> In message, Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> writes:
> >I'm probably older than you, Del.
> 
> What? 84? <rolleyes>

I'm probably older than you, Del.

0
elmop (1209)
7/27/2008 12:21:31 PM
In message, Neil Gould <neil@myplaceofwork.com> writes
>You also can select to upgrade those other apps on an as-needed basis, and
>considering the usage figures you posted earlier it would be the way I'd go.

I'm looking into it as I write.

Elmo's unhelpful histrionics excepted, I am grateful to the group for 
all the helpful advice you've provided. At the very least you've 
persuaded me to steer clear of Quirk Depress.

Once the current slew of big jobs is out of the way I *will* be buying 
Indesign and possibly the creative suite. Better late than never I 
guess?
;-)
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/28/2008 2:23:02 PM
In article <QLexx5BGZdjIFww3@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> Elmo's unhelpful histrionics excepted, I am grateful to the group for 
> all the helpful advice you've provided.

Oh, it was helpful.  You just hated to hear it.

Go ahead, shoot the messenger.
0
elmop (1209)
7/28/2008 5:12:53 PM
Derek Tree wrote:
> In message, Neil Gould <neil@myplaceofwork.com> writes
>> You also can select to upgrade those other apps on an as-needed
>> basis, and considering the usage figures you posted earlier it would
>> be the way I'd go.
>
> I'm looking into it as I write.
>
> Elmo's unhelpful histrionics excepted, I am grateful to the group for
> all the helpful advice you've provided. At the very least you've
> persuaded me to steer clear of Quirk Depress.
>
> Once the current slew of big jobs is out of the way I *will* be buying
> Indesign and possibly the creative suite. Better late than never I
> guess?
> ;-)
>
Or...
"Resistance is futile"

Neil


0
neil9133 (816)
7/28/2008 6:43:28 PM
In article <io2N5HFjkviIFw9w@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> In message, Neil Gould <neil@myplaceofwork.com> writes:
> 
> >Not so. InDesign will read those older formats just fine.
> Ily 8.0, Photoshop 6.0 and Acrobat 5?

I'm not sure about *native* AI files in earlier formats than v9, when 
the transition from PostScript to PDF took place, but v8's EPS files 
will certainly work at least as well in InD as in QX -- you can even get 
InD to render a preview of its own if you don't like the one that comes 
with the EPSF. Old Photoshop images and PDFs: no problem.

I find InD less efficient at some tasks than QX v4 (no equivalent for 
the latter's option-shift-click for copying paragraph formats, for 
example) and it has some annoyingly Illustrator-like characteristics 
(e.g. leading is a character attribute, rather than applying to whole 
paragraphs) & still the odd bug, but IME it's extremely reliable for 
printing (either PostScript or PDF, separated or composite) and has a 
few 'killer' features (such as the Separation Preview) that generally 
compensate for the ones I miss.

We have one copy of QX v7 here, which I haven't used much -- it won't 
run on my own old workstation, so it's on the 'communal' iMac along with 
the CS3 apps -- but it certainly has come a long way and is much closer 
to being competitive with InD than v6 was. The only serious problem 
we've had with it so far has to do with flattening fuzzy shadows: it 
sometimes creates 'seams' through headline type that has shadows over 
it, probably because of a rounding error of some kind. Now I've seen 
such artifacts when previewing InD's PDF output, but they never show up 
on a plate (and they can appear & disappear as one zooms in and out). 
The ones from QX *do* sometimes show up in the output, quite 
unpredictably. On occasion, out of desperation, I've had to render & 
retouch parts of a page in Photoshop as a workaround.

-- 
Odysseus
0
7/28/2008 6:56:41 PM
"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:glQdamT5OHiIFw8F@noonehere.com
> 1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...

Nope

> 2. Will it recognise (and work with) ATM 4.1 Deluxe for Windoze (XP) or
> do I need a new font mangler?

FontExplorerX for pc, freeware

> 3. Will it support our font libraries (mainly Adobe, Bitstream and Lino
> PS type 1 fonts)?

Full support

> 4. Will it import PSD files from Photoshop 6.0 (yep, I'm out of date
> with that one too)?

Photoshop 6 ??, yes psd, but not so good as ids

> 5. Will QX 8.0 import native ai files from Illustrator 8.0 (Yep, even
> more out of date with that, too!)?

Not .ai, eps or pdf (better choice)

> How fast does QX 7.0 run? We'll be sticking it on two Wintel boxes, both
> of which have 4GB RAM and are running on dual 3GHZ cpus.
>
> Any serious issues on output? Font handling?

Seriously, buy IDS CS3.
Bye

-- 
psss.: Se vuoi scrivermi in privato,
togli Sir. e cita il messaggio ; ]


0
7/28/2008 9:18:47 PM
In article <488e3805$0$1071$4fafbaef@reader2.news.tin.it>, 
Sir.Larsenio@inwind.it says...

> "Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:glQdamT5OHiIFw8F@noonehere.com
> > 1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...
> 
> Nope
> 
> > 2. Will it recognise (and work with) ATM 4.1 Deluxe for Windoze (XP) or
> > do I need a new font mangler?
> 
> FontExplorerX for pc, freeware.

Unless you have some download url that I can't find, only the final 
release for the Mac is available. 
0
phorbin1 (11)
7/29/2008 12:52:48 AM
In article <MPG.22f833ddcecb6805989863@news.execulink.com>, phorbin
<phorbin1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <488e3805$0$1071$4fafbaef@reader2.news.tin.it>, 
> Sir.Larsenio@inwind.it says...
> 
> > "Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
> > news:glQdamT5OHiIFw8F@noonehere.com
> > > 1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...
> > 
> > Nope
> > 
> > > 2. Will it recognise (and work with) ATM 4.1 Deluxe for Windoze (XP) or
> > > do I need a new font mangler?
> > 
> > FontExplorerX for pc, freeware.
> 
> Unless you have some download url that I can't find, only the final 
> release for the Mac is available. 

I don't know why it's not obvious on the home page, but it shows up on
the Mac download page:

<http://www.linotype.com/3321/freedownloadpc.html>

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/29/2008 1:41:36 AM
In article <280720081941365654%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>, Dave
Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

> I don't know why it's not obvious on the home page, but it shows up on
> the Mac download page:
> 
> <http://www.linotype.com/3321/freedownloadpc.html>

I'm guessing the fact it's still beta is why the link is buried. Still,
odd... You'd think they'd be crowing.

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/29/2008 1:44:46 AM
In article <280720081944467058%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>,=20
dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca says...
> In article <280720081941365654%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>, Dave
> Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
>=20
> > I don't know why it's not obvious on the home page, but it shows up on
> > the Mac download page:
> >=20
> > <http://www.linotype.com/3321/freedownloadpc.html>
>=20
> I'm guessing the fact it's still beta is why the link is buried. Still,
> odd... You'd think they'd be crowing.
>=20
>=20
You can get to the PC download page, but there is no download link=20
there.

Instead, there's the following note... and it's been up for quite=20
awhile, btw (because I looked a couple of months ago).

FontExporer X for Windows (Beta)=20
 =09
Where can I download the beta version of FontExplorer X for Windows?

We have recently completed the beta-testing phase for the Windows=20
version of our free font management application, FontExplorer X! We=20
would like to thank all customers who have been using our FontExplorer X=20
for Windows beta version. Your feedback has been invaluable. Since our=20
testing period has ended, we have removed the free download of the beta=20
Windows version from our website. As soon as the new version is=20
released, free downloading will resume. Check back on this website for=20
more details about the next stage?s imminent release, or subscribe to=20
our monthly LinoLetter e-mail newsletter!



Which suggests to me that you either get a beta from someone or waitabit=20
more for the release.
0
phorbin1 (11)
7/29/2008 3:22:45 AM
In article <MPG.22f856e93c7eacb8989864@news.execulink.com>, phorbin
<phorbin1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You can get to the PC download page, but there is no download link 
> there.

Then  I guess the logical thing to do is stop posting to usenet about
it and actually ask Linotype.

If I used Windows and wanted the product, I might do so. But as I don't
and don't, I won't.

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/29/2008 4:28:52 AM
Hi Larsenio,

In message, Larsenio <Sir.Larsenio@inwind.it> writes:
>"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:glQdamT5OHiIFw8F@noonehere.com
>> 1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...
>
>Nope

Do you *KNOW* this for certain?
If so, do you know why Quirk 7 doesn't support it? It's not **that** old 
and has a genuine Adobe level 3 rip.

I'm assuming CS3 *does* support this printer?
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/29/2008 3:01:39 PM
In message, Dave Balderstone writes:
>Then  I guess the logical thing to do is stop posting to usenet about
>it and actually ask Linotype.

sounds good advice to me. Do you happen to know whether Indesign CS3 
would work with ATM 4.0 deluxe? I'm loathe to ditch ATM as it's a snap 
to use and we have all our sets saved in it. Re-installing all those 
sets on two machines does not inspire me with enthusiasm...
;-(

>If I used Windows and wanted the product, I might do so. But as I don't
>and don't, I won't.

Not to start any flames...but...it's not **that** bad, Dave. I can't 
speak for Vista as I have no intention of buying it, but XP rarely gives 
us any grief. Which is more than I can say for OSX on my powerbook...
;-)
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/29/2008 3:08:22 PM
In article <jlmd63DmJzjIFwVw@noonehere.com>, Derek Tree
<derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> In message, Dave Balderstone writes:
> >Then  I guess the logical thing to do is stop posting to usenet about
> >it and actually ask Linotype.
> 
> sounds good advice to me. Do you happen to know whether Indesign CS3 
> would work with ATM 4.0 deluxe? I'm loathe to ditch ATM as it's a snap 
> to use and we have all our sets saved in it. Re-installing all those 
> sets on two machines does not inspire me with enthusiasm...
> ;-(

Just a SWAG, but if the font's available at the OS level it should
work. I doubt there's an auto-activation plugin, though.


> >If I used Windows and wanted the product, I might do so. But as I don't
> >and don't, I won't.
> 
> Not to start any flames...but...it's not **that** bad, Dave. I can't 
> speak for Vista as I have no intention of buying it, but XP rarely gives 
> us any grief. Which is more than I can say for OSX on my powerbook...
> ;-)

No flame intended, just a straight statement,. I don't use Windows, so
don't want a Windows font manager, so have no reason to ask Linotype
about one.

-- 
Woodworking links and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com
--------------
I kill all messages from Google Groups. See http://improve-usenet.org for
details.
0
dave16 (4224)
7/29/2008 4:46:14 PM
"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:l1LcuEDTDzjIFwVc@noonehere.com
> Do you *KNOW* this for certain?
> If so, do you know why Quirk 7 doesn't support it? It's not **that** old
> and has a genuine Adobe level 3 rip.
>
> I'm assuming CS3 *does* support this printer?

If even doesn't support it, you could do pdf-file and print it.
Bye

-- 
psss.: Se vuoi scrivermi in privato,
togli Sir. e cita il messaggio ; ]


0
7/29/2008 5:09:22 PM
Derek Tree wrote:
> Hi Larsenio,
>
> In message, Larsenio <Sir.Larsenio@inwind.it> writes:
>> "Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> news:glQdamT5OHiIFw8F@noonehere.com
>>> 1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...
>>
>> Nope
>
> Do you *KNOW* this for certain?
> If so, do you know why Quirk 7 doesn't support it? It's not **that**
> old and has a genuine Adobe level 3 rip.
>
> I'm assuming CS3 *does* support this printer?
>
It isn't unusual that professional layout apps using PostScript won't print
to some non-PostScript printers, but that's a different colored horse
altogether. You shouldn't have a problem with a PostScript 3 printer.

Neil





0
neil9133 (816)
7/29/2008 8:10:07 PM
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:08:22 +0100, Derek Tree
<derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

>Do you happen to know whether Indesign CS3 
>would work with ATM 4.0 deluxe?

Works with CS2 on XP. Don't know about CS3.
-- 
Paul Hartman/Dirty Linen
The Magazine of Folk and World Music
www.dirtylinen.com
Remove "SpamBeGone" to reply.
0
paul9122 (19)
7/29/2008 10:00:03 PM
In message, Paul Hartman/Dirty Linen writes
>On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:08:22 +0100, Derek Tree
><derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Do you happen to know whether Indesign CS3
>>would work with ATM 4.0 deluxe?
>
>Works with CS2 on XP. Don't know about CS3.
That's good to know; thanks.
;-)
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/30/2008 9:26:47 AM
In message <488f4f11$0$18154$4fafbaef@reader3.news.tin.it>, Larsenio 
<Sir.Larsenio@inwind.it> writes
>"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:l1LcuEDTDzjIFwVc@noonehere.com
>> Do you *KNOW* this for certain?
>> If so, do you know why Quirk 7 doesn't support it? It's not **that** old
>> and has a genuine Adobe level 3 rip.
>>
>> I'm assuming CS3 *does* support this printer?
>
>If even doesn't support it, you could do pdf-file and print it.
>Bye

Much as I appreciate the intention, creating pdfs for every spread of an 
80pp 4col magazine is not my idea of fun...
;-)

 From all the comments received I'm confident we should have no problems 
printing from ID CS3
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
7/30/2008 9:29:24 AM
On Jul 30, 5:29=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <488f4f11$0$18154$4fafb...@reader3.news.tin.it>, Larsenio
> <Sir.Larse...@inwind.it> writes
>
> >"Derek Tree" <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
> >news:l1LcuEDTDzjIFwVc@noonehere.com
> >> Do you *KNOW* this for certain?
> >> If so, do you know why Quirk 7 doesn't support it? It's not **that** o=
ld
> >> and has a genuine Adobe level 3 rip.
>
> >> I'm assuming CS3 *does* support this printer?
>
> >If even doesn't support it, you could do pdf-file and print it.
> >Bye
>
> Much as I appreciate the intention, creating pdfs for every spread of an
> 80pp 4col magazine is not my idea of fun...

That's what scripts are for, or one can make a .pdf, open it in
Acrobat and extract all the pages as individual .pdfs.

William

0
willadams (1425)
7/30/2008 11:12:38 AM
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message 
news:elmop-0B2A48.21332025072008@news.x-privat.org...
>
> Most long term gain requires short term pain.

And as long as it's not *Elmo's* pain, well, go ahead.


0
pjcoquet1 (75)
8/2/2008 5:31:09 PM
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message 
news:elmop-29018C.13125328072008@news.x-privat.org...
> In article <QLexx5BGZdjIFww3@noonehere.com>,
> Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Elmo's unhelpful histrionics excepted, I am grateful to the group for
>> all the helpful advice you've provided.
>
> Oh, it was helpful.  You just hated to hear it.
>
> Go ahead, shoot the messenger.

Oh, unhelpful. Elmo, you know we can't *really* shoot you!


0
pjcoquet1 (75)
8/2/2008 5:36:05 PM
"keith" <sooke2004@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:69611312-433a-4133-a3c1-86dc967f5624@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Back to topic; I think the last Quark file I saw was about 1 1/2 years
ago. But then most of my customers are MS Office users. A lot of the
files I see from clients are useless for print and I end up re-
creating it so it will work. The same is true when I get Illustrator
and Photoshop files. I'm always amazed at the number of redundent
layers I see in Illustrator files. I often end up throwing out half
the file. I could just disable the layers that aren't required, but it
bugs me that they're even there. I like neat and organized. Probably a
carry over from my film stripping days.
Keith

mmphph ... I thought I was the only anal-retentive OCD designer who did that 
<g>. I also delete unnecessary guides and off-page text snips and images, 
left there "just in case ..." or out of sheer laziness.


0
pjcoquet1 (75)
8/2/2008 5:43:54 PM
"Derek Tree" <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:jlmd63DmJzjIFwVw@noonehere.com...
> In message, Dave Balderstone writes:
>>Then  I guess the logical thing to do is stop posting to usenet about
>>it and actually ask Linotype.
>
> sounds good advice to me. Do you happen to know whether Indesign CS3 would 
> work with ATM 4.0 deluxe? I'm loathe to ditch ATM as it's a snap to use 
> and we have all our sets saved in it. Re-installing all those sets on two 
> machines does not inspire me with enthusiasm...
> ;-(
>
>>If I used Windows and wanted the product, I might do so. But as I don't
>>and don't, I won't.
>
> Not to start any flames...but...it's not **that** bad, Dave. I can't speak 
> for Vista as I have no intention of buying it, but XP rarely gives us any 
> grief. Which is more than I can say for OSX on my powerbook...
> ;-)
> -- 
> Derek Tree

I use Windows XP, Adobe CS3, and Adobe Type Manager Deluxe 4.1. They work 
perfectly together. No crashes, no hassles.

FWIW, the same setup is used at the Fedex Office & Print Center (formerly 
Kinko's) where I work. They (corporate) wouldn't continue to use it if there 
were problems; most of my coworkers are not trained to deal with complex 
work-arounds or fixes.

Peggy C 


0
pjcoquet1 (75)
8/2/2008 5:49:17 PM
In article <4fWdnZVfjfTCBAnVnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
 "Peggy" <pjcoquet@comcast.net> wrote:

> > Most long term gain requires short term pain.
> 
> And as long as it's not *Elmo's* pain, well, go ahead.

Hey, Elmo's long term gain requires short term pain, too.
0
elmop (1209)
8/3/2008 2:56:05 AM
In message, the inestimable Peggy <pjcoquet@comcast.net> wrote:
>I use Windows XP, Adobe CS3, and Adobe Type Manager Deluxe 4.1. They work
>perfectly together. No crashes, no hassles.

It's nice to know that ATM works with CS3; that's one thing I don't have 
to worry about when we buy it. Thanks.

Quick question about Indesign... how does it deal with linked text 
boxes?
I was setting reams of text today and it really is a doddle to link, 
unlink and re-link text boxes in Quirk; my fingers were a blur on the 
keyboard! Is it as easy and productive in ID?

Best wishes,
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
8/3/2008 4:33:04 PM
Derek Tree wrote:
> In message, the inestimable Peggy <pjcoquet@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I use Windows XP, Adobe CS3, and Adobe Type Manager Deluxe 4.1. They
>> work perfectly together. No crashes, no hassles.
>
> It's nice to know that ATM works with CS3; that's one thing I don't
> have to worry about when we buy it. Thanks.
>
> Quick question about Indesign... how does it deal with linked text
> boxes?
> I was setting reams of text today and it really is a doddle to link,
> unlink and re-link text boxes in Quirk; my fingers were a blur on the
> keyboard! Is it as easy and productive in ID?
>
It appears that you are hoping to be as productive with ID "out of the box"
as you are with years (decades?) of Quirkiness. I don't think that is
realistic. But more to the point, I think you will be best served by
learning InDesign's paradigm and dumping what you learned of QXP.

I use 3 layout packages regularly because each has its strengths and
limitations (as well as non-overlapping capabilities), but each uses a very
different workflow, and one way to quickly frustrate myself would be to try
applying the paradigm of one app to one of the others. In the long run, you
can be just as productive in ID, or most likely more so because it is far
better integrated with Illustrator, Photoshop and Acrobat. But, it will be a
long run.

Specifically to your question regarding linking and re-linking text boxes; I
use the mouse for that task in ID. I don't find myself doing a lot of
"re-linking", so I can't speak to the efficiency of that, but I do find ID
to be far less frame-oriented than the other apps I use. Hearing that QXP
glommed onto the frame-based orientation of Ventura, I can only compare ID
to that app, and in the use of frames, Ventura is superior.

Best,

Neil


0
neil9133 (816)
8/4/2008 2:28:33 AM
In message, Neil Gould <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:

>It appears that you are hoping to be as productive with ID "out of the box"
>as you are with years (decades?) of Quirkiness.

Not at all, I'm sorry if I gave that impression; that's the downside of 
communicating in cyberspace. ;-)

I know it will be a long haul with many frustrations and annoyances 
along the way. I merely asked that question out of interest to see how 
Indesign handled a task I perform on a regular basis.

Are you saying that it's a lot more mouse-centric than Quark or that the 
keyboard commands are just different? I confess that I much prefer the 
keyboard over the mouse, but that's just a personal idiosyncrasy. I'm 
just as 'keyboard-centric' in Photoshop which is, after all, an Adobe 
application.

If anything irks me it is that fact that those of us in this industry 
are compelled (for a variety of reasons, many of which are of very 
dubious validity) to constantly re-learn the tools of our trade, with 
often very minimal improvement in either productivity or profitability. 
Imagine if the same paradigm applied to gardening! Perhaps I am merely 
showing my age?
;-)

All the best,

-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
8/4/2008 9:55:22 AM
Derek Tree wrote:
>
> Are you saying that it's a lot more mouse-centric than Quark or that
> the keyboard commands are just different? I confess that I much
> prefer the keyboard over the mouse, but that's just a personal
> idiosyncrasy. I'm just as 'keyboard-centric' in Photoshop which is,
> after all, an Adobe application.
>
I find Adobe apps to be more 'mouse-centric' than the other apps that I use,
but I would say that it is on an equal footing with their other apps.
Additionally, ID, Photoshop and Illustrator share many of the same keyboard
commands, so for general tasks -- zooming, grouping, options and such -- you
will already know ID's keyboard commands.

> If anything irks me it is that fact that those of us in this industry
> are compelled (for a variety of reasons, many of which are of very
> dubious validity) to constantly re-learn the tools of our trade, with
> often very minimal improvement in either productivity or
> profitability. Imagine if the same paradigm applied to gardening!
> Perhaps I am merely showing my age?
> ;-)
>
I think that those of us still on Usenet can understand that perspective.
;-)

Best,

Neil


0
neil9133 (816)
8/4/2008 1:35:51 PM
In article <T6rhtwEKItlIFwiR@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> If anything irks me it is that fact that those of us in this industry 
> are compelled (for a variety of reasons, many of which are of very 
> dubious validity) to constantly re-learn the tools of our trade, with 
> often very minimal improvement in either productivity or profitability. 
> Imagine if the same paradigm applied to gardening! Perhaps I am merely 
> showing my age?
> ;-)

If the work you do on a computer isn't just automating keystrokes, count 
on changing how you do it every 2-3 years.  That's just the nature of 
the beast.  

This stuff gets sold on features and if they don't change it up 
frequently it looks like they're not state of the art.

With gardening, you control the entire process to end product.  It's not 
analogous.  

When they decoupled the product that you're supposed to have go to press 
from a visually interpreted and processed prototype to one that is 
"typeset" graphically, you were put at the mercy of computer "progress". 
 
The amazing thing is that it works at all.

- Allen
0
awessels1 (257)
8/4/2008 5:31:58 PM
"Allen Wessels" <awessels@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in message 
news:awessels-8C58AA.10314304082008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net...
> When they decoupled the product that you're supposed to have go to press
> from a visually interpreted and processed prototype to one that is
> "typeset" graphically, you were put at the mercy of computer "progress".
>
> The amazing thing is that it works at all.
>
> - Allen

Well, yes. And I'm not gonna vote in favor of Exacto knives and hot wax! I 
enjoy learning new software, or new functions in old software. And I did NOT 
enjoy (in those bad old days) seeing that an ad had slud cockeyed, or a line 
of text had peeled off.

But I did say I was an early adopter, no?

I'm constantly amused at the people who get impatient at the Sony Picture 
Station because it takes SO LONG - sometimes 5 minutes! - for their photos 
to print. And these are folks my age - mid-50s. Don't they remember when it 
took a week? Like the great line in "Postcards from the Edge": "Instant 
gratification takes too long!"

Yes, there is a learning curve. But that keeps our brains agile, right? 


0
pjcoquet1 (75)
8/4/2008 6:57:36 PM
In article <Y7OdncYDTq89zQrVnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
 "Peggy" <pjcoquet@comcast.net> wrote:

> Well, yes. And I'm not gonna vote in favor of Exacto knives and hot wax! I 
> enjoy learning new software, or new functions in old software. And I did NOT 
> enjoy (in those bad old days) seeing that an ad had slud cockeyed, or a line 
> of text had peeled off.

The difficulty is getting paid for the time when changes in the digital 
file production stream cause hiccups because in the ABC chain, A is 5 
years behind, B is 2, and C starts using beta software for production.

> But I did say I was an early adopter, no?

Some folks don't mind getting nicked on the bleeding edge.  :-)

> I'm constantly amused at the people who get impatient at the Sony Picture 
> Station because it takes SO LONG - sometimes 5 minutes! - for their photos 
> to print. And these are folks my age - mid-50s. Don't they remember when it 
> took a week? Like the great line in "Postcards from the Edge": "Instant 
> gratification takes too long!"

Technology is magic.  They only find out the practical issues when they 
ask for the impossible.  Few want to learn the whys.  Just give me the 
when's and the how much.

> Yes, there is a learning curve. But that keeps our brains agile, right? 

Everything I've read in the health news says that.  :-)

- Allen
0
awessels1 (257)
8/4/2008 9:40:56 PM
In message, Peggy <pjcoquet@comcast.net> wrote:

>Well, yes. And I'm not gonna vote in favor of Exacto knives and hot wax! I
>enjoy learning new software, or new functions in old software. And I did NOT
>enjoy (in those bad old days) seeing that an ad had slud cockeyed, or a line
>of text had peeled off.

We're in complete agreement on that, only we called them scalpels!
FWIW, I still use ours but the waxer has long since departed for the 
great paste-up studio in the sky. ;-)

>But I did say I was an early adopter, no?
So we have you to thank for all those bug fix releases of our favourite 
applications? ;-P

>I'm constantly amused at the people who get impatient at the Sony Picture
>Station because it takes SO LONG - sometimes 5 minutes! - for their photos
>to print.

It's amusing, isn't it? For some reason I can still vividly remember a 
6pp brochure I designed in 1994 being proofed on an Apple laser (I 
think).
If memory serves, the job took something like an hour and a half to Rip 
and print from Quirk 3.0! Now we chuck out SRA3 spreads from a 60pp 4 
col magazine on our not so state-of-the-art Xerox phaser in under ten 
minutes.

>Yes, there is a learning curve. But that keeps our brains agile, right?
I suppose you're right, but I can't help feeling that the time I'm 
spending learning new software is time I am not spending designing, or 
better yet, pottering around my garden.

My gripe was really with the perpetual need to re-learn existing tools, 
not learning on its own account, which is always a pleasure. I am yet to 
be convinced that there is anything a skilled and talented designer can 
produce in Indesign CS3 that I can't produce in Quirk 4.11, Illy 8.0 and 
Photoshop 6.0. That was my complaint. Or, to put it another way, are the 
ads, brochures and magazines you see today so much better than they were 
ten years ago? I'd argue that in many areas they are much **worse**.

-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
8/5/2008 8:42:20 AM
On Aug 5, 4:42=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> In message, Peggy <pjcoq...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >Well, yes. And I'm not gonna vote in favor of Exacto knives and hot wax!=
 I
> >enjoy learning new software, or new functions in old software. And I did=
 NOT
> >enjoy (in those bad old days) seeing that an ad had slud cockeyed, or a =
line
> >of text had peeled off.
>
> We're in complete agreement on that, only we called them scalpels!
> FWIW, I still use ours but the waxer has long since departed for the
> great paste-up studio in the sky. ;-)
>
> >But I did say I was an early adopter, no?
>
> So we have you to thank for all those bug fix releases of our favourite
> applications? ;-P
>
> >I'm constantly amused at the people who get impatient at the Sony Pictur=
e
> >Station because it takes SO LONG - sometimes 5 minutes! - for their phot=
os
> >to print.
>
> It's amusing, isn't it? For some reason I can still vividly remember a
> 6pp brochure I designed in 1994 being proofed on an Apple laser (I
> think).
> If memory serves, the job took something like an hour and a half to Rip
> and print from Quirk 3.0! Now we chuck out SRA3 spreads from a 60pp 4
> col magazine on our not so state-of-the-art Xerox phaser in under ten
> minutes.
>
> >Yes, there is a learning curve. But that keeps our brains agile, right?
>
> I suppose you're right, but I can't help feeling that the time I'm
> spending learning new software is time I am not spending designing, or
> better yet, pottering around my garden.
>
> My gripe was really with the perpetual need to re-learn existing tools,
> not learning on its own account, which is always a pleasure. I am yet to
> be convinced that there is anything a skilled and talented designer can
> produce in Indesign CS3 that I can't produce in Quirk 4.11, Illy 8.0 and
> Photoshop 6.0. That was my complaint. Or, to put it another way, are the
> ads, brochures and magazines you see today so much better than they were
> ten years ago? I'd argue that in many areas they are much **worse**.

Quark 4 can't use OpenType fonts w/ contextual ligatures, swashes,
alternates &c., dooming one to using AppleScripts and the like to
manually change to Expert Fonts.

Quark 4 can't hang punctuation, so one either dispenses w/ that
typographic nicety, does it manually or resorts to setting type in
Illustrator or FreeHand.

Quark 4 has a brain-dead, one-line-at-a-time greedy hyphenation and
justification method (I won't dignify it w/ the term ``algorithm''
dooming one to large amounts of manual tweaking to get nice
paragraphs.

Quark 4 doesn't grok Word tables, so one has to re-create them somehow
--- while there are decent table XTensions, none of them have the
seamless reliability of InDesign's .doc and .rtf importers and table
tool.

Quark 4 alters initial baseline placement based on the font, so if one
is using Adobe Garamond 9.5/12 as a text font and Agfa Mathematical Pi
for math characters and such a character occurs in the first line one
is doomed to manually adjust every such.

Quark 4 has bizarre bugs such as ``can't link text boxes across master
pages -42 or -54'' and the like, dooming one to corrupt and lost files
and many lost hours of work.

Quark 4 can't preview a PostScript graphic (w/o a plug-in) and exists
in an environment sans Display PostScript or equivalent, dooming one
to endless rounds of save page as eps, distill, examine, measure,
tweak placement, repeat.

Quark 4 doesn't have a nifty text-based file format equivalent to
InDesign's interchange format allowing one to build documents
programmatically (something I'm currently investigating) or export
live documents for global search-replaces, dooming one to endless
tedium inside the application.

So yes, while one can accomplish the same work w/ the older tools, one
is forced to exert much more effort and spend more of Napoleon's most
precious commodity.

A math-heavy medical journal which I page every month took 13--16 hrs.
in Quark 6 or 7 (and probably would've been 'bout the same in v4), but
is down to 6--9 hrs. in InDesign.

Add scripting and GREP and Adobe Graphics Manager previewing and
support for XML sans schema or DTD and Unicode and an excellent H&J
algorithm and one has an tool which will pay for itself in saved time
and increased productivity.

William

0
willadams (1425)
8/5/2008 10:23:36 AM
In message, William F. Adams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:

>Quark 4 can't use OpenType fonts w/ contextual ligatures, swashes,
>alternates &c., dooming one to using AppleScripts and the like to
>manually change to Expert Fonts.

I hope you're sitting down as this is going to sound like **rank 
heresy** but... in nearly 25 years of artworking everything from B2B 
leaflets for multinationals, through national and international press 
ads, to 120pp scientific journals, I can count the times I've had to set 
ligatures, swashes and alternates on the fingers of one hand...

Now, you may say that my clients are typographically-challenged (though 
I prefer the more precise appellation of 'moron'), but the fact is that 
none of 'em ask for this stuff - ever.

>Quark 4 can't hang punctuation, so one either dispenses w/ that
>typographic nicety, does it manually or resorts to setting type in
>Illustrator or FreeHand.

Not entirely true. Quirk **can** hang punctuation just as smartly as 
Indesign if you give it a helping hand. Granted it takes longer, but how 
often does one have to it? In my workload, maybe once or twice a month.

>Quark 4 has a brain-dead, one-line-at-a-time greedy hyphenation and
>justification method (I won't dignify it w/ the term ``algorithm''
>dooming one to large amounts of manual tweaking to get nice
>paragraphs.

I have never seen much justification for justification in all the years 
I've been setting type. Perhaps I was soured at an early age by seeing 
three words of 16/20pt Times Roman justified over a 20 em measure in 
snoozepapers? In any event I rarely justify type. When I do, my nicely 
honed 'tight and clean' Quirk H&J that I created in 1907 works just 
fine.
;-)

>Quark 4 doesn't grok Word tables, so one has to re-create them somehow
>--- while there are decent table XTensions, none of them have the
>seamless reliability of InDesign's .doc and .rtf importers and table
>tool.

I have a solution for that too. Save the pesky things as PS files, clean 
them up in photoshop and...you guessed it (!)...rasterize the hell out 
of the little muthas.

>Quark 4 alters initial baseline placement based on the font, so if one
>is using Adobe Garamond 9.5/12 as a text font and Agfa Mathematical Pi
>for math characters and such a character occurs in the first line one
>is doomed to manually adjust every such.

Agreed that's a pain. But again I have to say that my workflow I don't 
have to do very much of that.

>Quark 4 has bizarre bugs such as ``can't link text boxes across master
>pages -42 or -54'' and the like, dooming one to corrupt and lost files
>and many lost hours of work.

True. But one learns early on what the programme can't do and finds 
workarounds. I can't believe that there aren't 'bizarre bugs' in 
Indesign that create problems for some users.

>Quark 4 can't preview a PostScript graphic (w/o a plug-in) and exists
>in an environment sans Display PostScript or equivalent, dooming one
>to endless rounds of save page as eps, distill, examine, measure,
>tweak placement, repeat.

Not sure what you mean by that. Quirk 4.11 will preview vector eps out 
of Illy just fine and raster eps with the built-in enhance preview XT.

>Quark 4 doesn't have a nifty text-based file format equivalent to
>InDesign's interchange format allowing one to build documents
>programmatically (something I'm currently investigating) or export
>live documents for global search-replaces, dooming one to endless
>tedium inside the application.

Again, none of that is required in the jobs I get.

>So yes, while one can accomplish the same work w/ the older tools, one
>is forced to exert much more effort and spend more of Napoleon's most
>precious commodity.

I disagree. Horses for courses, William. 90% of our work is B2B and B2C 
ads, leaflets, flyers, magazines and stationery. Whilst I'm sure 
Indesign would allow us to be more productive and provide more features 
than Quirk 4.11 does, customers are not deserting us in droves because 
we don't have the latest and greatest tools. What we get paid for is our 
creativity, imagination and business experience. Unless I am very much 
mistaken you can't yet obtain any of those desirable 'features' in any 
software application.

>A math-heavy medical journal which I page every month took 13--16 hrs.
>in Quark 6 or 7 (and probably would've been 'bout the same in v4), but
>is down to 6--9 hrs. in InDesign.

As you may have guessed, I don't do maths. In fact I was so appallingly 
useless at maths at school that the headmaster refused to let me even 
sit the exam! Not that that stopped me going on to obtain two arts 
degrees at university...
;-)
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
8/6/2008 3:47:50 PM
On Aug 6, 11:47=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> In message, William F. Adams <willad...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Quark 4 can't use OpenType fonts w/ contextual ligatures, swashes,
> >alternates &c., dooming one to using AppleScripts and the like to
> >manually change to Expert Fonts.
>
> I hope you're sitting down as this is going to sound like **rank
> heresy** but... in nearly 25 years of artworking everything from B2B
> leaflets for multinationals, through national and international press
> ads, to 120pp scientific journals, I can count the times I've had to set
> ligatures, swashes and alternates on the fingers of one hand...
>
> Now, you may say that my clients are typographically-challenged (though
> I prefer the more precise appellation of 'moron'), but the fact is that
> none of 'em ask for this stuff - ever.

The nice thing is, w/ InDesign one can slip them in effortlessly.

> >Quark 4 can't hang punctuation, so one either dispenses w/ that
> >typographic nicety, does it manually or resorts to setting type in
> >Illustrator or FreeHand.
>
> Not entirely true. Quirk **can** hang punctuation just as smartly as
> Indesign if you give it a helping hand. Granted it takes longer, but how
> often does one have to it? In my workload, maybe once or twice a month.

How does one hang punctuation in Quark? The feature which enables this
in InDesign is ``Optical Margin Alignment'' and I've never found a
satisfactory way to hang punctuation in Quark and all attempts at it
involve large amounts of manual effort and are totally wrecked if
there're any text edits.


> >Quark 4 has a brain-dead, one-line-at-a-time greedy hyphenation and
> >justification method (I won't dignify it w/ the term ``algorithm''
> >dooming one to large amounts of manual tweaking to get nice
> >paragraphs.
>
> I have never seen much justification for justification in all the years
> I've been setting type. Perhaps I was soured at an early age by seeing
> three words of 16/20pt Times Roman justified over a 20 em measure in
> snoozepapers? In any event I rarely justify type. When I do, my nicely
> honed 'tight and clean' Quirk H&J that I created in 1907 works just
> fine.
> ;-)

Sure, applying it, tweaking it, inserting non-breaking spaces to
change where one line files, adding a discretionary hyphen to
eliminate a hyphen (in InDesign whether or no hyphenation is turned on
for a paragraph is a check box on the Paragraph palette). I spend a
lot less time fiddling w/ individual bits of text and more time
looking over the overall appearance of a design when using InDesign
because it mostly gets text setting correct to begin with.

> >Quark 4 doesn't grok Word tables, so one has to re-create them somehow
> >--- while there are decent table XTensions, none of them have the
> >seamless reliability of InDesign's .doc and .rtf importers and table
> >tool.
>
> I have a solution for that too. Save the pesky things as PS files, clean
> them up in photoshop and...you guessed it (!)...rasterize the hell out
> of the little muthas.

::blech::

Makes alterations a pain, no?

> >Quark 4 alters initial baseline placement based on the font, so if one
> >is using Adobe Garamond 9.5/12 as a text font and Agfa Mathematical Pi
> >for math characters and such a character occurs in the first line one
> >is doomed to manually adjust every such.
>
> Agreed that's a pain. But again I have to say that my workflow I don't
> have to do very much of that.

It's a constant thing to look out for in mine.

> >Quark 4 has bizarre bugs such as ``can't link text boxes across master
> >pages -42 or -54'' and the like, dooming one to corrupt and lost files
> >and many lost hours of work.
>
> True. But one learns early on what the programme can't do and finds
> workarounds. I can't believe that there aren't 'bizarre bugs' in
> Indesign that create problems for some users.

If you find one, Adobe is actually interested in fixing it --- I've
worked w/ Adobe developers on a number of issues. Quark won't
investigate even when offered a specific file and instructions on re-
creating a bug.

> >Quark 4 can't preview a PostScript graphic (w/o a plug-in) and exists
> >in an environment sans Display PostScript or equivalent, dooming one
> >to endless rounds of save page as eps, distill, examine, measure,
> >tweak placement, repeat.
>
> Not sure what you mean by that. Quirk 4.11 will preview vector eps out
> of Illy just fine and raster eps with the built-in enhance preview XT.

Right, one has to use an XTension, which given the memory limits on
Quark's XTension usage is a pain.

> >Quark 4 doesn't have a nifty text-based file format equivalent to
> >InDesign's interchange format allowing one to build documents
> >programmatically (something I'm currently investigating) or export
> >live documents for global search-replaces, dooming one to endless
> >tedium inside the application.
>
> Again, none of that is required in the jobs I get.

But it can make doing them much faster --- need a global change in a
file which can't be handled w/ a search-replace? dump to .inx a quick
search-replace and re-open the file, done.

> >So yes, while one can accomplish the same work w/ the older tools, one
> >is forced to exert much more effort and spend more of Napoleon's most
> >precious commodity.
>
> I disagree. Horses for courses, William. 90% of our work is B2B and B2C
> ads, leaflets, flyers, magazines and stationery. Whilst I'm sure
> Indesign would allow us to be more productive and provide more features
> than Quirk 4.11 does, customers are not deserting us in droves because
> we don't have the latest and greatest tools. What we get paid for is our
> creativity, imagination and business experience. Unless I am very much
> mistaken you can't yet obtain any of those desirable 'features' in any
> software application.

I never said customers would desert one, merely that one can save time
money and effort by using a better tool.

> >A math-heavy medical journal which I page every month took 13--16 hrs.
> >in Quark 6 or 7 (and probably would've been 'bout the same in v4), but
> >is down to 6--9 hrs. in InDesign.
>
> As you may have guessed, I don't do maths. In fact I was so appallingly
> useless at maths at school that the headmaster refused to let me even
> sit the exam! Not that that stopped me going on to obtain two arts
> degrees at university...

Other jobs experience similar productivity gains. Judging from the
sample templates I've been getting, we've been winning a lot of bids
against companies which use Quark.

William

0
willadams (1425)
8/6/2008 4:21:31 PM
In article <ZKDjhCBmecmIFwp4@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> >Quark 4 doesn't grok Word tables, so one has to re-create them somehow
> >--- while there are decent table XTensions, none of them have the
> >seamless reliability of InDesign's .doc and .rtf importers and table
> >tool.
> 
> I have a solution for that too. Save the pesky things as PS files, clean 
> them up in photoshop and...you guessed it (!)...rasterize the hell out 
> of the little muthas.

I see a trend.

Del has a hammer, and everything looks like a nail.
0
elmop (1209)
8/6/2008 9:20:38 PM
In article <elmop-9066A0.17203806082008@news.x-privat.org>,
 "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

> In article <ZKDjhCBmecmIFwp4@noonehere.com>,
>  Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > >Quark 4 doesn't grok Word tables, so one has to re-create them somehow
> > >--- while there are decent table XTensions, none of them have the
> > >seamless reliability of InDesign's .doc and .rtf importers and table
> > >tool.
> > 
> > I have a solution for that too. Save the pesky things as PS files, clean 
> > them up in photoshop and...you guessed it (!)...rasterize the hell out 
> > of the little muthas.
> 
> I see a trend.
> 
> Del has a hammer, and everything looks like a nail.

You can't even make a good analogy.  At best it would be that Del 
changes everything into a nail.  He has certainly displayed over the 
years master-level understanding of prepress issues and the different 
problems therein.

In fact you're the one suggesting that if it isn't a nail to such and 
such a spec that it should be rejected.


- Allen
0
awessels1 (257)
8/6/2008 11:27:32 PM
In article 
<awessels-FB3573.16271706082008@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>,
 Allen Wessels <awessels@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:

> > I see a trend.
> > 
> > Del has a hammer, and everything looks like a nail.
> 
> You can't even make a good analogy.  At best it would be that Del 
> changes everything into a nail.  He has certainly displayed over the 
> years master-level understanding of prepress issues and the different 
> problems therein.
> 
> In fact you're the one suggesting that if it isn't a nail to such and 
> such a spec that it should be rejected.

No, I'm suggesting no such thing.

I'm simply pointing out that Del talks way, way more frequently than 
anyone else about "I just bring it into Photoshop and rasterize it".

That isn't "master level understanding of prepress issues".  That's "too 
cheap to solve it any other way".
0
elmop (1209)
8/7/2008 12:00:21 AM
In article <elmop-CBE12E.20002106082008@news.x-privat.org>,
 "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

> No, I'm suggesting no such thing.
> 
> I'm simply pointing out that Del talks way, way more frequently than 
> anyone else about "I just bring it into Photoshop and rasterize it".
> 
> That isn't "master level understanding of prepress issues".  That's "too 
> cheap to solve it any other way".

Then you haven't been listening to what he's been saying.  Generally he 
posts here BECAUSE he's about to spend some money to solve a problem.  

What you do NOT do is throw money at the exceptions unless you have a 
clear idea that the return will be good.

I've watched prepress operators try and tweak problem jobs through 
endless iterations of front end and RIP settings.  Sometimes you just 
get out the brute force tool and shoot for good enough.

- Allen
0
awessels1 (257)
8/7/2008 2:52:26 AM
In article 
<awessels-BAF47C.19521106082008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
 Allen Wessels <awessels@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:

> Sometimes you just 
> get out the brute force tool and shoot for good enough.

Sometimes, yes.
0
elmop (1209)
8/7/2008 3:13:07 AM
In message, William F. Adams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:

>How does one hang punctuation in Quark? The feature which enables this
>in InDesign is ``Optical Margin Alignment'' and I've never found a
>satisfactory way to hang punctuation in Quark and all attempts at it
>involve large amounts of manual effort and are totally wrecked if
>there're any text edits.

OK, mea culpa; mea maxima culpa. ;-) It does involve a fair bit of 
faffing about with text boxes nested within text boxes. And, as you say, 
should any edits be required one generally goes out and shoots 
oneself...

<BIG SNIP>

>If you find one, Adobe is actually interested in fixing it --- I've
>worked w/ Adobe developers on a number of issues. Quark won't
>investigate even when offered a specific file and instructions on re-
>creating a bug.

That doesn't surprise me. I think I said earlier that leopards don't 
change their spots.

>Other jobs experience similar productivity gains. Judging from the
>sample templates I've been getting, we've been winning a lot of bids
>against companies which use Quark.

William, you can pick up the check now. Stop selling CS3! I'm going to 
buy it. I am! I really am!!! Just not this week...
;-)
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
8/7/2008 8:35:20 AM
In message 
<awessels-BAF47C.19521106082008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, Allen 
Wessels <awessels@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> writes
>In article <elmop-CBE12E.20002106082008@news.x-privat.org>,
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> No, I'm suggesting no such thing.
>>
>> I'm simply pointing out that Del talks way, way more frequently than
>> anyone else about "I just bring it into Photoshop and rasterize it".
>>
>> That isn't "master level understanding of prepress issues".  That's "too
>> cheap to solve it any other way".
>
>Then you haven't been listening to what he's been saying.  Generally he
>posts here BECAUSE he's about to spend some money to solve a problem.
>
>What you do NOT do is throw money at the exceptions unless you have a
>clear idea that the return will be good.

Indeed. I have no idea what sort of business Elmo is in but in every 
shop I've ever worked in cost is the overriding consideration that 
determines what solutions are chosen to solve a particular issue.

>I've watched prepress operators try and tweak problem jobs through
>endless iterations of front end and RIP settings.  Sometimes you just
>get out the brute force tool and shoot for good enough.

A concept Elmo seems to have difficulty grasping. If I have laboured the 
'rasterization' point it is simply to illustrate the fact that it is 
often the only cost-effective solution. If we were dealing with 100's of 
ads a day from above-the-line national ad agencies of course we wouldn't 
rasterize them all. We're not in business to lose clients! But given the 
relatively small number of problem ads we *do* need to fix and the fact 
that in four years of using a hammer to fix them we have not received a 
single complaint about quality from an advertiser it makes no sense for 
us to spend time and money solving a problem we already have licked.
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
8/7/2008 8:43:25 AM
In article <UNRQAWBtWrmIFwYS@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> Indeed. I have no idea what sort of business Elmo is in but in every 
> shop I've ever worked in cost is the overriding consideration that 
> determines what solutions are chosen to solve a particular issue.

You take that to an absolute art form, Del.  A fucking absolute art form.
0
elmop (1209)
8/7/2008 9:35:56 AM
In message <elmop-45F628.05355507082008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P. 
Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> writes
>In article <UNRQAWBtWrmIFwYS@noonehere.com>,
> Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Indeed. I have no idea what sort of business Elmo is in but in every
>> shop I've ever worked in cost is the overriding consideration that
>> determines what solutions are chosen to solve a particular issue.
>
>You take that to an absolute art form, Del.  A fucking absolute art form.

Shouldn't the indefinite article in your second sentence be 'an' rather 
than 'a'?  Unless you Americans are now eschewing all grammatical 
considerations, indefinite articles that precede a noun with a vowel 
sound, usually should be 'an' not 'a.'

i.e., an hotel, a moron.

Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule, but a clever chap 
like you should know this stuff...
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
8/7/2008 12:16:41 PM
Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> writes:

> In message <elmop-45F628.05355507082008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo
> P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> writes
>>In article <UNRQAWBtWrmIFwYS@noonehere.com>,
>> Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed. I have no idea what sort of business Elmo is in but in every
>>> shop I've ever worked in cost is the overriding consideration that
>>> determines what solutions are chosen to solve a particular issue.
>>
>>You take that to an absolute art form, Del.  A fucking absolute art form.
>
> Shouldn't the indefinite article in your second sentence be 'an'
> rather than 'a'?  Unless you Americans are now eschewing all
> grammatical considerations, indefinite articles that precede a noun
> with a vowel sound, usually should be 'an' not 'a.'
>
> i.e., an hotel, a moron.
>
> Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule, but a clever chap
> like you should know this stuff...

Last time I checked, "fucking" did not start with a vowel sound.  But
then I don't know all the subtleties of British pronunciation.

And actually, "hotel" is not exactly starting with a vowel sound either
unless you pronounce it French rather than English (but why would you?).
"honorable" in contrast, is.

I have my doubts that even the French would start "fucking" with a
vowel.  They usually rather start it at the drop of a hat.

-- 
David Kastrup
0
dak (3569)
8/7/2008 12:36:30 PM
In article <yIwJRuDpeumIFwNP@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> >You take that to an absolute art form, Del.  A fucking absolute art form.
> 
> Shouldn't the indefinite article in your second sentence be 'an' rather 
> than 'a'?

A hotel.  We pronounce the 'h'.

No, it should be "a".  A fucking art form.
0
elmop (1209)
8/7/2008 1:52:33 PM
In message <elmop-0ED93D.09523307082008@news.x-privat.org>, Elmo P. 
Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> writes
>In article <yIwJRuDpeumIFwNP@noonehere.com>,
> Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >You take that to an absolute art form, Del.  A fucking absolute art form.
>>
>> Shouldn't the indefinite article in your second sentence be 'an' rather
>> than 'a'?
>
>A hotel.  We pronounce the 'h'.

That does not reassure me given that your President routinely pronounces 
'nuclear' as 'nuc'la'...

Mr Kastrup; I bow to your superior local knowledge. We, after all, as 
the divine Oscar opined, two nations divided by a common language.
;-)
-- 
Derek Tree
0
derek.tree (92)
8/7/2008 3:12:21 PM
In article <OW$mmpFVDxmIFwbC@noonehere.com>,
 Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:

> >> Shouldn't the indefinite article in your second sentence be 'an' rather
> >> than 'a'?
> >
> >A hotel.  We pronounce the 'h'.
> 
> That does not reassure me given that your President routinely pronounces 
> 'nuclear' as 'nuc'la'...

What does our sitting President have to do with anything?
0
elmop (1209)
8/7/2008 3:16:40 PM
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message 
news:elmop-6C73E1.11164007082008@news.x-privat.org...
> In article <OW$mmpFVDxmIFwbC@noonehere.com>,
> Derek Tree <derek.tree@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >> Shouldn't the indefinite article in your second sentence be 'an' 
>> >> rather
>> >> than 'a'?
>> >
>> >A hotel.  We pronounce the 'h'.
>>
>> That does not reassure me given that your President routinely pronounces
>> 'nuclear' as 'nuc'la'...
>
> What does our sitting President have to do with anything?

Well, Elmo, in most of the civilized world leaders are chosen based on 
intelligence and integrity, as well as diplomatic skill. "Easy to 
manipulate" is not the usual criterion. Our choices sometimes puzzle our 
allies. 


0
pjcoquet1 (75)
8/7/2008 7:19:56 PM
In article <BKOdnWTjevpG1wbVnZ2dnUVZ_sDinZ2d@comcast.com>,
 "Peggy" <pjcoquet@comcast.net> wrote:

> > What does our sitting President have to do with anything?
> 
> Well, Elmo, in most of the civilized world leaders are chosen based on 
> intelligence and integrity, as well as diplomatic skill. "Easy to 
> manipulate" is not the usual criterion. Our choices sometimes puzzle our 
> allies. 

But our sitting president isn't in prepress, so...
0
elmop (1209)
8/7/2008 10:17:42 PM
On Jul 24, 8:21=A0am, Derek Tree <derek.t...@spamnull.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> Some of you may remember me from way back. I see that many of you are
> still active here and hope you're all flourishing?
>
> Now to bizness... I have decided to finally upgrade our ageing copies of
> Quirk Depress 4.11 to 7 (and 8 when it ships). I have a number of
> questions I can't find answers to on the world wide wait and hope that
> some of the old timers will take pity on me and be able to help.
> ;-)
>
> 1. Does it support the Xerox phaser 7700GX*. If not, I'm stuffed...
> 2. Will it recognise (and work with) ATM 4.1 Deluxe for Windoze (XP) or
> do I need a new font mangler?
> 3. Will it support our font libraries (mainly Adobe, Bitstream and Lino
> PS type 1 fonts)?
> 4. Will it import PSD files from Photoshop 6.0 (yep, I'm out of date
> with that one too)?
> 5. Will QX 8.0 import native ai files from Illustrator 8.0 (Yep, even
> more out of date with that, too!)?
>
> *For those who don't know this printer. It's a PS level 3 SRA3 color
> laser we bought in late 2002. I think it was sold upto 2005 but don't
> quote me...
>
> A few general questions...
>
> How fast does QX 7.0 run? We'll be sticking it on two Wintel boxes, both
> of which have 4GB RAM and are running on dual 3GHZ cpus.
>
> Any serious issues on output? Font handling?
>
> All help much appreciated.
>
> Best wishes,
> --
> Derek Tree

Quark 7.0 is not an upgrade on 6.5 and not worth the money, in my
opinion.
0
gally42 (13)
8/26/2008 12:06:21 PM
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Q: upgrading from 7.4.1 to 7.4.3.
I'm about to update a server that is currently using 7.4.1 to 7.4.3. I see that in the instructions for upgrading to 7.4.2 from 7.4.1 it said to either do a dump or follow a set of special instructions. Should I still follow these instruction when I upgrade? TIA Patrick Hatcher Macys.Com ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 01:54:20PM -0700, Patrick Hatcher wrote: > I'...

Web resources about - Quark Xpress upgrade to 7.0 from 4.11 - comp.publish.prepress

Windows Anytime Upgrade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Windows Anytime Upgrade (WAU) was an upgrade method offered by Microsoft and selected licensed resellers to users who intended to upgrade their ...


President Obama's Facebook Page Upgrades To Timeline
Yes, we can upgrade to timeline. U.S. President Barack Obama's Facebook page has the new layout.

Update on Android Ice Cream Sandwich upgrades
HTC has been working hard to get its Ice Cream Sandwich upgrades ready, and we’re excited to announce that our first round of ICS upgrades will ...

Four Reasons to Upgrade to the New Share Dialog for iOS
... as friend tagging and privacy controls. 2. A faster and more native sharing experience Pinterest and popular iOS game 4 Pics 1 Word upgraded ...

More Streams: Facebook to Upgrade App Directory, App About Pages Soon
Over 50,000 applications have been added to the Facebook application directory since it first launched two years ago, and Facebook says it’s ...

Search Twitter - upgrade
... here Search Refresh Laura Tobin @ Lauratobin1 2m The only way to get through today is chocolate, I'm going to start small with baby & upgrade ...

Brain Upgrade - Improve Concentration and Relieve Stress! on the App Store on iTunes
Get Brain Upgrade - Improve Concentration and Relieve Stress! on the App Store. See screenshots and ratings, and read customer reviews.

upgrade - Flickr - Photo Sharing!
... Flickr. We noticed that you may be using an unsupported browser. All the basics will still work, but to get the most out of Flickr please upgrade ...

ModBook Upgrade by TechRestore - YouTube
http://www.techrestore.com/ - TechRestore Video - Here is the world's first Modbook upgrade video - TechRestore stop-motion style, of course! ...

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