f



Is software engineer an engineer?

I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
to do the task. In other engineering, they should take PE exams
to get licenses. I think the underlying question is how do we
define engineer? Software is engineered, and not manufactured. And
I think person who construct software should be considered as
an engineer.

Please advise and discuss. Thanks!!
0
jrefactors (362)
11/15/2004 3:13:50 AM
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Matt wrote:

> I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
> he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
> software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
> to do the task. In other engineering, they should take PE exams
> to get licenses. I think the underlying question is how do we
> define engineer? Software is engineered, and not manufactured. And
> I think person who construct software should be considered as
> an engineer.
>
> Please advise and discuss. Thanks!!

This is a very common argument, and you and your friend need to find things
to argue about that don't cause endless threads here.

Suffice to say, software engineers are not civil. Engineers.

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces


0
phlip_cpp (3852)
11/15/2004 3:17:42 AM
Phlip wrote:

> Matt wrote:
> 
> 
>>I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
>>he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
>>software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
>>to do the task. In other engineering, they should take PE exams
>>to get licenses. I think the underlying question is how do we
>>define engineer? Software is engineered, and not manufactured. And
>>I think person who construct software should be considered as
>>an engineer.
>>
>>Please advise and discuss. Thanks!!
> 
> 
> This is a very common argument, and you and your friend need to find things
> to argue about that don't cause endless threads here.
> 
> Suffice to say, software engineers are not civil. Engineers.
> 
Even electrical engineers can be civil, it they're nice
people :)

For once I agree with Phlip that this subject has been
beaten to death over the last few months.

NPL - Civil Engineer, PE.

-- 
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof
because fools are so ingenious"
  - A. Bloch
0
11/15/2004 3:27:30 AM
Nick Landsberg wrote:

> For once I agree with Phlip that this subject has been
> beaten to death over the last few months.

Thank you. I think some people dig into this topic just try to find a way to
exclude the likes of me.

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces


0
phlip_cpp (3852)
11/15/2004 3:37:18 AM
jrefactors@hotmail.com (Matt) wrote in message news:<ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com>...
> I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
> he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
> software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
> to do the task. In other engineering, they should take PE exams
> to get licenses. I think the underlying question is how do we
> define engineer? Software is engineered, and not manufactured. And
> I think person who construct software should be considered as
> an engineer.
> 
> Please advise and discuss. Thanks!!

I don't want to start another huge discussion, but I like this
definition of engineering:

"... it's about using scientific knowledge, mathematical insight,
analysis, creativity, practical know-how, and above all a disciplined
approach to design and synthesis, to devise and construct useful
things that work reliably."

It was provided by Dr Peter Greenwood, President of the Institution of
Engineers Australia (IEAust) in April 2003. He went on to say that by
this defnition, many people, including those without formal
engineering qualifications, do engineering.

My view is that people who develop useful software using scientific
knowledge, mathematical insight, analysis, creativity, practical
know-how, and above all a disciplined approach to design and
synthesis, are doing 'software engineering'.

However, to be called a 'software engineer', I would expect a person
to have a software engineering degree accredited by a national
authority such as the IEAust.

BTW, I am not a software engineer. I am a EE who practices software
engineering.
0
11/15/2004 10:23:55 AM

>I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer ...

Ha!  Tell your friend that there is no such thing as a civil engineer
;-)  




Wayne Woodruff
http://www.jtan.com/~wayne
0
wayne41 (125)
11/15/2004 11:11:43 AM
"Matt" <jrefactors@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com...
> I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
> he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
> software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
> to do the task.

That is the way the law is written.

> In other engineering, they should take PE exams
> to get licenses.

If you choose to follow the letter of the law in the sense being used by
your friend, then most engineers are also not engineers. That is they have
attended an institution of higher training, matriculated,  posted their
sheepskin on a wall, and declined to take the liscensing examination. Ergo
not an engineer.

It is all about liability and risk assumption. A liscensed engineer can
place his signature on a document and that makes the insurance industry a
bit happier

> I think the underlying question is how do we
> define engineer? Software is engineered, and not manufactured. And
> I think person who construct software should be considered as
> an engineer.
>
> Please advise and discuss. Thanks!!


0
11/15/2004 11:28:11 AM
In article <c1e269f0.0411150223.70ad5d57@posting.google.com>,
Shayne <shayne.flint@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>"... it's about using scientific knowledge, mathematical insight,
>analysis, creativity, practical know-how, and above all a disciplined
>approach to design and synthesis, to devise and construct useful
>things that work reliably."

Damn, it has to work reliably?  I guess we're not engineers.

    --bks

0
bks (109)
11/15/2004 12:49:06 PM
"Bradley K. Sherman" <bks@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cna8k2$hj9$1@panix3.panix.com...

> Damn, it has to work reliably?  I guess we're not engineers.

Good catch, Bradley

...


0
11/15/2004 8:45:29 PM
David Lightstone wrote:

> "Matt" <jrefactors@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com...
> 
>>I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
>>he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
>>software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
>>to do the task.

....

> It is all about liability and risk assumption. A liscensed engineer can
> place his signature on a document and that makes the insurance industry a
> bit happier


Some government contracts may also require a licensed engineer.
I'm not aware of any governments letting contracts that have that
requirement in them for software.  Yet.  It will likely happen in
the US within our lifetimes.  Texas already recognizes SWEs and the
IEEE has the CSDP program up and running which is likely to be a
precursor activity.  Note: I'm not saying any of this is good or
bad...


Jonathan (IEEE CSDP and ASQ CSQE) Allan
-- 
Jonathan Allan

Neither Mayo Clinic nor I speak for each other unless we explicitly
say so.  You should assume I am speaking only for myself.
Please remove the antispam ".6809" to reply direct to me.  Thanks!

0
Jonathan
11/15/2004 9:39:54 PM
Matt,

     This is an old argument, but worth addressing.  I like Shayne's
definition and Phlip's reply.  As others have noted there is a
distinction between being a Licensed Professional Engineer and being a
"real" engineer.  Civil engineering is the only engineering that puts
heavy emphasis on being licensed and for good reason.   Electrical
power enginers are another.  In most areas of engineering being a
licensed professional is of little interest to employers.   Software
development is a field that has the potential to become an engineering
discipline, but I don't believe it has matured enough yet.  Some of us
try to work like engineers, but we are a small minority.   There are
few colleges that offer degress in Software Engineering.

    I have a BS in EE (1965) and an MS in System Engineering (1975)
and I'm a member of the IEEE Computer Society and a subscriber to it's
Software Engineering magazine.  I also own and have read more than 100
books on the subject, which I've been attempting to practice for 20+
years.  (Before that I was a hacker.)  For me, that's a good start on
being a "real" software engineer.

Rich


jrefactors@hotmail.com (Matt) wrote in message news:<ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com>...
> I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
> he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
> software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
> to do the task. In other engineering, they should take PE exams
> to get licenses. I think the underlying question is how do we
> define engineer? Software is engineered, and not manufactured. And
> I think person who construct software should be considered as
> an engineer.
> 
> Please advise and discuss. Thanks!!
0
11/16/2004 1:15:26 PM
jrefactors@hotmail.com (Matt) wrote in message news:<ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com>...
> I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
> he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
> software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
> to do the task. In other engineering, they should take PE exams
> to get licenses. I think the underlying question is how do we
> define engineer? Software is engineered, and not manufactured. And
> I think person who construct software should be considered as
> an engineer.

Civil engineers and electrical engineers and mechanical engineers and
aeronautical engineers all study the physical world, so they can say
things like "to carry 50 Amps at 220 volts without burning down the
building, you need at least a 4-gauge copper wire."  Engineers apply
science to the construction of useful objects.

Software engineers don't study the physical world, and they don't much
study software either.  The study of actual software is left to
computer scientists.

What software engineers actually study is software development. 
Software engineers attempt to define practices that will facilitate
software construction.  They say things like "avoid writing functions
with cyclomatic complexity greater than 10".  Not because such
functions definitely have bugs, but because complex functions are
harder for people to understand, and are more likely to have errors. 
Software engineering is really a branch of psychology.
0
kevin.cline (181)
11/16/2004 8:59:47 PM
"Matt" <jrefactors@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com...
> I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
> he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
> software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
> to do the task. In other engineering, they should take PE exams
> to get licenses. I think the underlying question is how do we
> define engineer? Software is engineered, and not manufactured. And
> I think person who construct software should be considered as
> an engineer.
>
> Please advise and discuss. Thanks!!

Matt,

     You should ask your civil engineer friend if he knows the difference
(at least from a military perspective) between a systems engineer and a
civil engineer.

    A systems engineer builds weapon systems, and a civil engineer builds
targets.

Mike



0
mbandor1 (13)
11/17/2004 3:51:59 AM
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:49:06 UTC, bks@panix.com (Bradley K. Sherman) wrote:

> In article <c1e269f0.0411150223.70ad5d57@posting.google.com>,
> Shayne <shayne.flint@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >"... it's about using scientific knowledge, mathematical insight,
> >analysis, creativity, practical know-how, and above all a disciplined
> >approach to design and synthesis, to devise and construct useful
> >things that work reliably."
> 
> Damn, it has to work reliably?  I guess we're not engineers.
> 
>     --bks

  Reliability is kind of important, especially in certain systems.
I wouldn't expect the business tools (e.g. email packages) at work
to have been made by (software) engineers and signed off as having
met certain requirements.  However, I might reasonably expect that
the software driven brakes on my car were signed off by an engineer
they they function properly.

  IMO, many software enabled products that might reasonably be
expected to perform at some reliability standard are not tested and
verified by an engineer.  Some software enabled products are.  It
is of concern that some rather well known software enabled products
have been approved and used that are in-part based on unproven
components for the intended purpose.  It does not bother me if the
signer would be a Software Engineeer or any other kind of licensed
Engineer.  The point is, at least from the insurance/assurance
standpoint, is that someone familiar with the entire product who
is licensed to speak in authority, has reviewed and approved the
product and its safety, relibability, and operability limits.

  David
0
11/17/2004 4:24:11 AM
Kevin Cline wrote:

 
> Software engineering is really a branch of psychology.


Shhhh!  You'll let the secret out!

But I've often wondered if SW isn't really more about philosophy than 

psych.  Not only do you have to understand how your users think, but
you have to understand how to get them to think the way you need them
to think to get the job done with the system you're proposing.


Hmmm.  On rereading, maybe that's marketing.  I'll have to think
about this some more.

-- 
Jonathan Allan

Neither Mayo Clinic nor I speak for each other unless we explicitly
say so.  You should assume I am speaking only for myself.
Please remove the antispam ".6809" to reply direct to me.  Thanks!

0
Jonathan
11/17/2004 1:29:31 PM
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:59:47 -0800, Kevin Cline wrote:

> Software engineering is really a branch of psychology.

Make that a branch of folk psychology.

-- 
mail1dotstofanetdotdk

0
breese (255)
11/17/2004 7:36:29 PM
kevin.cline@gmail.com (Kevin Cline) wrote in message news:<e749549b.0411161259.305aad12@posting.google.com>...
> jrefactors@hotmail.com (Matt) wrote in message news:<ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com>...

< snip>

> Civil engineers and electrical engineers and mechanical engineers and
> aeronautical engineers all study the physical world, so they can say
> things like "to carry 50 Amps at 220 volts without burning down the
> building, you need at least a 4-gauge copper wire."  Engineers apply
> science to the construction of useful objects.

< snip>

Engineers apply *numbers* to the construction of useful objects. 

Software engineers are the only engineers that don't use arithemetic.
Maybe because they don't deal in the physical world, but even when you
would expect some numbers they're as rare as hens teeth - if you want
to waste a day ask a passing s/w engineer how she *actually* assesses
the size of software.

S/w developers are certainly ingenious, and do produce useful, robust
and reliable products, but the lack of numbers (as distinct from math)
may relegate s/w developers to craft status for a while yet.
0
shelley (136)
11/22/2004 2:07:37 PM
clifford shelley wrote:

> Engineers apply *numbers* to the construction of useful objects.
>
> Software engineers are the only engineers that don't use arithemetic.
> Maybe because they don't deal in the physical world, but even when you
> would expect some numbers they're as rare as hens teeth - if you want
> to waste a day ask a passing s/w engineer how she *actually* assesses
> the size of software.

That's why Scrum is becoming popular, to help teams track velocity as simple
metrics.

> S/w developers are certainly ingenious, and do produce useful, robust
> and reliable products, but the lack of numbers (as distinct from math)
> may relegate s/w developers to craft status for a while yet.

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces


0
phlip_cpp (3852)
11/22/2004 3:08:01 PM
clifford shelley wrote:
> kevin.cline@gmail.com (Kevin Cline) wrote in message news:<e749549b.0411161259.305aad12@posting.google.com>...
> 
>>jrefactors@hotmail.com (Matt) wrote in message news:<ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com>...
> 
> 
> < snip>
> 
>>Civil engineers and electrical engineers and mechanical engineers and
>>aeronautical engineers all study the physical world, so they can say
>>things like "to carry 50 Amps at 220 volts without burning down the
>>building, you need at least a 4-gauge copper wire."  Engineers apply
>>science to the construction of useful objects.
> 
> 
> < snip>
> 
> Engineers apply *numbers* to the construction of useful objects. 
> 
> Software engineers are the only engineers that don't use arithemetic.
> Maybe because they don't deal in the physical world, but even when you
> would expect some numbers they're as rare as hens teeth - if you want
> to waste a day ask a passing s/w engineer how she *actually* assesses
> the size of software.
> 
> S/w developers are certainly ingenious, and do produce useful, robust
> and reliable products, but the lack of numbers (as distinct from math)
> may relegate s/w developers to craft status for a while yet.

Insightful, Clifford.

But numbers can be applied to software, and are, by many
practitioners.

For example, given a requirement to handle 100 transactions
per second ...

- Any solution on a single CPU machine which uses more than
10 CPU milliseconds fails (simple arithmetic)
- Any solution which uses more than one disk I/O on a single
disk machine fails (simple arithmetic, again).

One may do this arithmetic at the start of the project
and specify more (or faster) CPU's or more disk drives
but I find that the vast majority of s/w developers do not bother.

[Note that I have not factored in the effects of queueing and
contention for resources into the above.  I've used simple
arithmetic rather than "math." ]

Yep, it's still a craft, rather than engineering.

NPL



-- 
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof
because fools are so ingenious"
  - A. Bloch
0
11/22/2004 6:17:28 PM
Nick Landsberg <SPAMhukolauTRAP@SPAMworldnetTRAP.att.net> wrote in message news:<Y2qod.955016$Gx4.533690@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> But numbers can be applied to software, and are, by many
> practitioners.
> 
> For example, given a requirement to handle 100 transactions
> per second ...
> 
> - Any solution on a single CPU machine which uses more than
> 10 CPU milliseconds fails (simple arithmetic)
> - Any solution which uses more than one disk I/O on a single
> disk machine fails (simple arithmetic, again).

That's a hardware problem!
0
kevin.cline (181)
11/23/2004 8:04:00 PM
Kevin Cline wrote:
> Nick Landsberg <SPAMhukolauTRAP@SPAMworldnetTRAP.att.net> wrote in message news:<Y2qod.955016$Gx4.533690@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> 
> 
>>But numbers can be applied to software, and are, by many
>>practitioners.
>>
>>For example, given a requirement to handle 100 transactions
>>per second ...
>>
>>- Any solution on a single CPU machine which uses more than
>>10 CPU milliseconds fails (simple arithmetic)
>>- Any solution which uses more than one disk I/O on a single
>>disk machine fails (simple arithmetic, again).
> 
> 
> That's a hardware problem!

So is changing a light-bulb :)

There is a certain set of applications where
you do not have the luxury of going out and
getting faster hardware.  Embedded systems
come to mind.  The customer already has the
hardware installed, possibly several years ago,
most probably rack mounted.  It may well be
in a place where additional floor space is
unavailable. There may well be hundreds of
these "cards" in racks in huts at the base
of cellular telephone towers, for example.

If the customer has to do a fork-lift upgrade to get
the spiffy new features, they may go out and sample other
vendors.  (This translates very quickly into possible
loss of revenue in the minds of management.)
If the customer can just upgrade the software
without significant loss of capacity, they
are more likely to stick with your product.

What was a "hardware problem" now *becomes* a software
problem because you, the "software engineer," must
make it work within the aforementioned constraints,
making the appropriate tradeoffs between
all sorts of factors.  (Such tradeoffs are
left as an exercise for the reader.)

Part of "Engineering" is providing a product which does
what the customer wants at a price the customer
is willing to pay (and at a decent profit for the
Engineer).  If you can't do it, someone else
will, and you'll be out of business.

NPL

-- 
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof
because fools are so ingenious"
  - A. Bloch
0
11/23/2004 9:09:44 PM
Nick Landsberg <SPAMhukolauTRAP@SPAMworldnetTRAP.att.net> wrote in message news:<Y2qod.955016$Gx4.533690@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

<snip>

> But numbers can be applied to software, and are, by many
> practitioners.
> 
> For example, given a requirement to handle 100 transactions
> per second ...
> 
> - Any solution on a single CPU machine which uses more than
> 10 CPU milliseconds fails (simple arithmetic)
> - Any solution which uses more than one disk I/O on a single
> disk machine fails (simple arithmetic, again).
> 
> One may do this arithmetic at the start of the project
> and specify more (or faster) CPU's or more disk drives
> but I find that the vast majority of s/w developers do not bother.
> 
> [Note that I have not factored in the effects of queueing and
> contention for resources into the above.  I've used simple
> arithmetic rather than "math." ]
> 
> Yep, it's still a craft, rather than engineering.
> 
> NPL

OK - I overstated the numbers case - but your example is tending to
the hardware end of software, if that makes sense, and are 'back of
the envelope', or perhaps 'back of the email' type calculations.

At the moment I'm working through MF's Refactoring (which, for what
its worth, I provisionally recommend). Its about improving code. After
the last posting I had a quick look through it. I can find no
measures. That's not a criticism, its simply that there are no data.
The improvements are intuitive and qualitiative.

A colleague once said that s/w dev was 'opinion engineering' and I
tend to agree. Most s/w developers seem to have a full set and then
some:)

CCS
0
shelley (136)
11/24/2004 9:54:56 AM
In article <4199222A.9030707@6809.mayo.edu>, Jonathan Allan
<Allan.Jonathan@6809.mayo.edu> writes
>David Lightstone wrote:
>
>> "Matt" <jrefactors@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ba8a039e.0411141913.6d6a36f9@posting.google.com...
>> 
>>>I just had an argument with my friend, and he is a civil engineer, and
>>>he argued that software engineer is not a real engineer, because
>>>software engineer doesn't require to have certification or license
>>>to do the task.
>
>...
>
>> It is all about liability and risk assumption. A liscensed engineer can
>> place his signature on a document and that makes the insurance industry a
>> bit happier
>
>
>Some government contracts may also require a licensed engineer.
>I'm not aware of any governments letting contracts that have that
>requirement in them for software.  Yet.  It will likely happen in
>the US within our lifetimes.  Texas already recognizes SWEs and the
>IEEE has the CSDP program up and running which is likely to be a
>precursor activity.  Note: I'm not saying any of this is good or
>bad...
>
>
>Jonathan (IEEE CSDP and ASQ CSQE) Allan

There are legally certified SW Engineers in many parts of the world.

In the UK the IEE (2 E's) Institute of Electrical Engineers  and the
BCS, British Computer Society via the Engineering Council confer
chartered Engineer Status on Electrical, Electronic and SW Engineers in
exactly the same way it does on Civil, Mechanical, Marine and
Aeronautical Engineers.

In other Parts of Europe the term "Engineer" is legally protected and
you can be a Software Engineer.

There are some 30+ countries who are harmonising their requirements for
licensed, certified or registered Software Engineers.  

On my web site (www.phaedsys.org) there is a link to the articles I
write for the UK  Embedded Systems Engineering magazine. A couple of the
articles are on this topic and have links to many of the sources and
places where it is happening now. Also some of the reports on the why's
and wherefore's.


Licensing  and certification of SW Engineers WILL happen in the next
decade. At least it will start to become a legal requirement in more
places for more things. 

Why? 

Liability. (IANAL)

More and more "things" have SW embedded in them. Ie Embedded systems.
All vehicles (all types of transport actually) that have an motor, most
domestic and industrial appliances etc etc control systems in fact
almost ANYTHING that has electrical power (mains or battery) applied to
it.

Most physical things, especially those that move or cause things to move
or do something have strict laws regarding their manufacture, test and
usage. Look at the safety testing on an automobile.  The problem is that
most machines are now directly controlled by software... (many are
usually indirectly controlled through that SW by a person).

Lawyers and insurance companies are waking up to the fact that the only
requirement for the SW in 95% of things is that the person doing it can
operate a keyboard....

Think about that next time you fly, drive, use the microwave cooker, the
lift/elevator etc etc 


regards
   Chris



/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
0
chris32 (3361)
12/4/2004 1:16:58 PM
On 22 Nov 2004 06:07:37 -0800, shelley@osel.netkonect.co.uk
(clifford shelley) wrote:

> Engineers apply *numbers* to the construction of useful objects. 
> 
> Software engineers are the only engineers that don't use arithemetic.

Bad software engineers maybe, but the ones who apply what they
get taught should certainly be using arithmetic to work out
things like:

How much CPU resource will I need
How much disk space will I need?
How much RAM ewill my program consume in use?
What will the average response time be?
What will the maximum number of concurrent users be?

And on a "softer" level:
How many bugs do I expect to have reported after release?
	and how many maintenance programmers will I need 
	to fix 'em
etc etc.

In other words, peformance figures and resource usage.
In the world of mainframes this is almost mandatory because you
have to write JCL scripts that tell the OS how much of everything
you need allocated before the program can run (admittedly in the
real world this is often done "optimistically"). However as
programs get bigger and more complex, and machines get more
powerful the criticality of doing these checks gets less.

If you want a bridge over a ditch you look for a big plank, you
don't sit down and calculate stresses. That's how a lot of
software enginering is going. But on big projects a lot of
arithmetic still goes on to size boxes and networks to match 
the software.

> Maybe because they don't deal in the physical world, 

And of course software runs on physical boxes with real users
so thats where the arithmetic comes in!

> to waste a day ask a passing s/w engineer how she *actually* assesses
> the size of software.

Thats a fact! 
Shall we reiterate the lines of code debate now? :-)

Alan G.
An Electrical Engineer who happens to work with software...

Author of the Learn to Program website
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
0
alan.gauld (394)
12/6/2004 9:26:28 AM
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HCL Technologies:Software Engineer/Senior software Engineer ..:: JobMaguz Update ::..
...:: Job Update from JobMaguz ::.. Today's Highlighted Job: HCL Technologies:Software Engineer/Senior software Engineer http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=981&cycle=1 26 jobs posted today in JobMaguz Jobs posted today: Freshers Section HCL Technologies:Software Engineer/Senior software Engineer http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=981&cycle=1 Willis Trinity recruits Freshers (ITES) http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=980&cycle=1 INTERNET PROTOCOL ENGG [Telecom Software] - ZTE Corporation http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs...

HCL Technologies:Software Engineer/Senior software Engineer ..:: JobMaguz Update ::..
...:: Job Update from JobMaguz ::.. Today's Highlighted Job: HCL Technologies:Software Engineer/Senior software Engineer http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=981&cycle=1 26 jobs posted today in JobMaguz Jobs posted today: Freshers Section HCL Technologies:Software Engineer/Senior software Engineer http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=981&cycle=1 Willis Trinity recruits Freshers (ITES) http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=980&cycle=1 INTERNET PROTOCOL ENGG [Telecom Software] - ZTE Corporation http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=978&cycle=1 Plexus Microelectronics Pte Ltd http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=977&cycle=1 Saviance Technologies http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewFresherJobs.aspx?jobid=975&cycle=1 More: www.jobmaguz.com/freshers.aspx Experienced Section Ansys Fluent India Pvt. Ltd http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewExperiencedJobs.aspx?jobid=985&cycle=1 Keane:Support Professionals http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewExperiencedJobs.aspx?jobid=984&cycle=1 PTC Software India Pvt Ltd http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewExperiencedJobs.aspx?jobid=982&cycle=1 Siyaram Silk Mills Ltd http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewExperiencedJobs.aspx?jobid=979&cycle=1 i-flex Solutions - 13th Sept 2007 - Mumbai - Oracle Pl/SQL http://www.jobmaguz.com/viewExperiencedJobs.aspx?jobid=965&cycle=1 More: www.jobmaguz.com/experienced.aspx Referral Section More: www.jobmaguz.com/referrals.aspx...

(203) US-CT-Fairfield County: Software Engineer/Senior Software Engineer (41321)
********************************************************************** This job posting is brought to you by ISHUNTER.COM, offering computer jobs for programmers, engineers, systems analysts, network administrators and other high technology professionals. Search over 3,000 IS/IT jobs in the United States by clicking on http://www.ISHunter.com ********************************************************************** Title ...... Software Engineer/Senior Software Engineer Skills ..... jsp java microsoft vb asp com mts sql oracle Location ... Fairfield County, CT Area Cod...

Software Engineer ? Software Developer
So I'm surfing through the job listings for computer jobs and I see requests for software engineers and requests for software developers. What exactly is the difference? Is a software developer a sub set of a software engineering? Can you be a software engineer and not a software developer or vice versa? Cathy -- Cathy Roberts cdroberts0-blue@yahoo.com Cathy Roberts wrote: > So I'm surfing through the job listings for computer jobs and I see requests > for software engineers and requests for software developers. What exactly > is the difference? Is a software developer a sub set of a software > engineering? Can you be a software engineer and not a software developer > or vice versa? The difference is roughly rank. Given these titles... Senior Software X Associate Software Y ....the value of X is more typically "Engineer", and Y is more typically "Developer". ("Associate" is, of course, a euphemism for "Junior".) Ideally, the title should only end with "Engineer". This is because everyone should be expected to participate in applying science and technology to help create efficient solutions. The regulars who couldn't resist clicking on my post are waiting with baited breath for me to point out the following: I like to tell newbies that the best way to engineer software is to write lots of tests as you write the code. Seek a job that does not somehow divide coding from test...

PRISE
Hello all, Try this custom search engine and let me know your feedback @ http://guptabs.blogspot.com http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=003453698661311018511%3Ahg2yhtikzzw regards Gupta ...

difference between computer engineering and software engineering
I'm going to college I'm trying to pick my major and wanted to know what's the difference between computer engineering and software engineering? Responding to Svega85... > I'm going to college I'm trying to pick my major and wanted to know > what's the difference between computer engineering and software > engineering? Some people use them synonymously. But Computer Engineering should refer to hardware side of CS (i.e., the design and construction of computers). ************* There is nothing wrong with me that could not be cured by a capful of Drano. H. S. Lahman hsl@pathfindermda.com Pathfinder Solutions http://www.pathfindermda.com blog: http://pathfinderpeople.blogs.com/hslahman "Model-Based Translation: The Next Step in Agile Development". Email info@pathfindermda.com for your copy. Pathfinder is hiring: http://www.pathfindermda.com/about_us/careers_pos3.php. (888)OOA-PATH so it's the same as a hardware engineer? On Jul 28, 8:05 am, "H. S. Lahman" <h.lah...@verizon.net> wrote: > Responding to Svega85... > > > I'm going to college I'm trying to pick my major and wanted to know > > what's the difference between computer engineering and software > > engineering? > > Some people use them synonymously. But Computer Engineering should refer > to hardware side of CS (i.e., the design and construction of computers). > > ************* > There is noth...

PRISE
Hello all, Try this custom search engine and let me know your feedback @ http://guptabs.blogspot.com http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=003453698661311018511%3Ahg2yhtikzzw regards Gupta ...

PRISE
Hello all, Try this custom search engine and let me know your feedback @ http://guptabs.blogspot.com http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=003453698661311018511%3Ahg2yhtikzzw regards Gupta ...

Software Fundamentals: the New Blog on Software Engineering
Let's visit the new blog on software engineering http://www.software-fundamentals.com/. Wating for your comments, ideas, and experiences. Miguel Lopez Algorismi http:www.algorismi.com ...

Senior Software Engineer
A Detroit area company which is a world class leader in telematics needs a Senior Software Engineer. Salary $70-$80K depending on experience. Local candidates only. No relo available. Green card or U.S. citizenship required. SUPERVISORY RELATIONSHIPS Reports to: Software Manager Supervises: No direct reports. May supervise engineering product development. BASIC FUNCTION Responsible for object-oriented, embedded system software product development including writing software requirements, analysis, software design, software implementation, and testing. ESSENTIAL DUTIES 1. Performs object-orie...

Senior Software Engineers and Software Development Managers Needed
Amazon.com will conduct in-person interviews in Austin, TX on June 16, 2004. These interviews are by invitation only. If you are interested in attending, please send your resume to the email address listed below. Thanks! Did you know that Amazon.com has hundreds of software engineers working on some of the most interesting technical challenges on the planet? Amazon.com, headquartered in beautiful Seattle, is looking for exceptional software engineers to join its growing technology organization. Our engineering team works on tough technical problems that engage and stretch thei...

Senior Software Engineers and Software Development Managers Needed
Amazon.com will conduct in-person interviews in Austin, TX on June 16, 2004. These interviews are by invitation only. If you are interested in attending, please send your resume to the email address listed below. Thanks! Did you know that Amazon.com has hundreds of software engineers working on some of the most interesting technical challenges on the planet? Amazon.com, headquartered in beautiful Seattle, is looking for exceptional software engineers to join its growing technology organization. Our engineering team works on tough technical problems that engage and stretch thei...

Can a Software QA Engineer become Software Architect
Hi All, I'm hearing lots about software architect. I'm interested to know more about it. Im currently working as a Software QA Engineer. I would Like to know if i can reach the carreer profile of Software Architect with QA being my current Job Profile. Please Let me know Regarding this. Have a Good Day. Regards, Idris Even accountants and lawyers can become with dedication and passion. But what does this have to do with java ? ...

Software Design Engineer
Title: Software Design Engineer - .NET Engineer Skills: Software Designing, .NET, SQL, XML, HTML, Visual Studio, bug tracking Trinity Consultancy Services is seeking applications from qualified and experienced software engineers with above skills for various requirements with their Clients Required Skills: * Software Design Engineer,.NET Engineer, SQL, XML, HTML, Visual Studio, bug tracking * 4+ years .NET development * Bachelors Degree * C# / C++ / JAVA programming expertise * Wed Design using HTML/DHTML/JAVASCRIPT * Ability to work within deadlines * Design and develop software based on project requirements * Work within the scope of customer needs * Software Maintenance, test and fix * Continually stay up to date on leading technology Trinity Consultancy Services is a leading source of Information Technology, Engineering and Management Experts that corporations of all sizes turn to, from Global 2000 corporations to mid-sized and small organizations nationwide. With the commitment to excellence, is subtly managed to find, recruit, screen, submit and effectively organize a technical workforce anywhere in the United States for various Technical needs of corporation irrespective of its size. Trinity Consultancy Services is one of its unique kind of the leading information technology consulting services, and business process outsourcing organizations committed for excellence. Trinity provides business consulting, systems integration, application development, staffing serv...

Int J of Software Engineering and Knowledge Engineering
International Journal of Software Engineering and Knowledge Engineering Vol. 13, No. 6 (December 2003) View table-of-contents and abstracts at http://www.worldscinet.com/ijseke.html Contents: Special Issue: Data Mining in Bioinformatics Guest Editor: Phoebe Y.-P. Chen Guest Editor's Introduction Yi-Ping Phoebe Chen Model-Based Clustering In Gene Expression Microarrays: An Application To Breast Cancer Data J. C. Mar and G. J. Mclachlan Data Mining For Gene Expression Profiles From Dna Microarray Sung-Bae Cho And Hong-Hee Won A Tool For Analyzing Magnetoencephalography-Data Based On ...

Software Engineer
Software Engineer - (Bachelors with 3 years experience or Associates with 5 years experience) - Portland, ME. Job entails and requires experience in design and development of applications using Oracle, SQL Server, Visual Basic, RUP, UML, SAP R/3, ABAP, J2EE and UNIX. Relocation within USA Possible. Attractive compensation package. Send resume to Manmeet Singh, The Evolvers Group, 480 Congress St., Portland, ME 04101. ...

Agile Software Engineer
Over 100K Plus - DOE Location: Boston, MA ( North I-95 ) An exciting and highly successful software development company is looking for a Software Engineer to add to their development team. This is an excellent opportunity for someone looking for a hands-on development position in an Agile environment. Our client's Agile platform's unique virtualization software dynamically allocates and repurposes servers to all real-time applications. With its integrated system of diskless processing resources and virtualization software, it has set a new standard for simplicity and business ...

Software Engineer
CalAmp is a leading provider of comprehensive breakthrough communications access and content delivery solutions, services, and products. We have an exciting career opportunity for an experienced Software Engineer in the San Diego, CA area. Description: The successful candidate will be a key contributing member of a software team that designs and develops solutions for embedded devices. Requirements documents will be developed based on customer input, and feedback solicited from internal and external stakeholders. These documents lead to the creation of a system architecture that describes t...

software engineering
question: if software quality measure is no. of error per thousand lines,then its usefulness for developer and user? i shall be thank full to that kind person who will answer before 15th oct2004 question: why is reliability an external attribute of the software? list three internal product attributes that could sffect reliability. well i am doing mca i have to submit these ans as assignement rohit srivastava wrote: > if software quality measure is no. of error per thousand lines,then > its usefulness for developer and user? > i shall be thank full to that kind person who will answer before 15th > oct2004 Send us your professor's e-mail address, so we can send the answer directly to her or him. -- Phlip http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces Phlip wrote: > rohit srivastava wrote: > > >>if software quality measure is no. of error per thousand lines,then >>its usefulness for developer and user? >>i shall be thank full to that kind person who will answer before 15th >>oct2004 > > > Send us your professor's e-mail address, so we can send the answer directly > to her or him. > :-) "rohit srivastava" <r9937@india.com> wrote in message news:d6826980.0410060850.40bf6b72@posting.google.com... > question: > if software quality measure is no. of error per thousand lines,then > its usefulness for developer and user? I suspect most quality profes...

Software Engineer
Hi I am making a research on Software Engineer. Do any of you know any good site that has a lot of information related to Software Engineer? Any help, I would really appreciate it. Thanks, Ely "Ely" <visualkidnet@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:daab7e2a.0402060452.764670aa@posting.google.com... Ely > I am making a research on Software Engineer. Do any of you know any > good site that has a lot of information related to Software Engineer? you can find useful links at: http://polaris.umuc.edu/~skerby/help/wbib_swe.htm HTH -- Marco Ely wrote: > I am making a research on Software Engineer. Do any of you know any > good site that has a lot of information related to Software Engineer? > Any help, I would really appreciate it. But what would you do with a Software Engineer if you had one? -- Dorothy Try the Software Engineering Body of Knowledge: http://www.swebok.org/ and download the public draft version. "Ely" <visualkidnet@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:daab7e2a.0402060452.764670aa@posting.google.com... > Hi > > I am making a research on Software Engineer. Do any of you know any > good site that has a lot of information related to Software Engineer? > Any help, I would really appreciate it. > > Thanks, > Ely On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 04:52:53 -0800, Ely wrote: > I am making a research on Software Engineer. Do any of you know any > good site that has a lot of informat...

software engineering
Paul Kent gave the opening session presentation at SESUG in which he talked about * CPU usage, difference between times reported in log * memory * I/O issues I have added the paper that he referred to: How to Maintain Happy SAS(r)9 Users Margaret Crevar, SAS Institute Inc., Cary, NC http://support.sas.com/resources/papers/proceedings09/310-2009.pdf to the sas wiki page: Software Engineering http://www.sascommunity.org/wiki/Software_Engineering Ron Fehd the module/routine/subroutine maven CDC Atlanta GA USA RJF2 at cdc dot gov ...

What do you do as a software engineer?
Hello, I'm currently enrolled in software engineering at Mohawk College in ontario, canada and I'm wondering what you do at your job? Comp-sci is a pretty broad field, but I'm having trouble getting an idea of what you do for the companies yoru work for or where I could possibly end up career-wise in a few years. Hello, On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:35:58 UTC, Susan.MKLau@gmail.com wrote: > Hello, I'm currently enrolled in software engineering at Mohawk College > in ontario, canada and I'm wondering what you do at your job? Comp-sci > is a pretty broad field, but I'm having trouble getting an idea of what > you do for the companies yoru work for or where I could possibly end up > career-wise in a few years. If you have some free time, try to contact a local company and spend some time with them. Ideally they should be involved in some engineering aspect and perhaps computer related. Actually spending time with someone and asking questions is a good way to learn. You can even visit a group on campus. It is a very good idea to understand what your opportunities your chosen career might offer. I grew up with an engineering and computer background and graduated many years ago. While I started out performing application work I quickly graduated to more complex tasks. I've been in the telecom, medical, military, and operating system disciplines. An engineering approach is very good for my tasks because the products I choose to...

Engineer Software !.
**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** serviceengineer@veryfast.biz Vericut V5.4 EDS Solid Edge V16 HFSS V9.2 DS Catia P3 V5R14 DS CAA Catia V5R14 DS CAA Enovia LCA V5R14 DS Enovia DMU Navigator V5R14 DS Enovia VPM Navigator V5R14 DS CAA Rade V5R14 Femlab V3.0A Hyperworks V6.0 SP2 Quartus II V4.1 MSC Nastran 2004 R3 Alphacam V2003 Torchmate CAD Module V5.0 Revision 12 Transmagic Plus V2005 Semcad V1.8 Blue Ridge Numerics CF Design V7.0 VX Cad Cam V9.51 Realtime Deltagen V4.0.4.92 Ansys CFX Turbogrid V2.2 Nemetschek VectorWorks V11.0 PTC ProEngineer Routed Systems Des...

Agile Software Engineer
Over 100K Plus - DOE Location: Boston, MA ( North I-95 ) An exciting and highly exceptional software development company is looking for a Software Engineer to add to their development team. This is an excellent opportunity for someone looking for a hands-on development position in an Agile environment. Our client's Agile platform's unique virtualization software dynamically allocates and repurposes servers to all real-time applications. With its integrated system of diskless processing resources and virtualization software, it has set a new standard for simplicity and business value...

Web resources about - Is software engineer an engineer? - comp.software-eng

Engineer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An engineer is a professional practitioner of engineering , concerned with applying scientific knowledge , mathematics , and ingenuity to develop ...

Islamic State document leak: Australian computer engineer identified on list of volunteer suicide bombers ...
An Australian would-be suicide bomber is among tens of thousands of Islamic State jihadists whose details have been leaked by a disgruntled former ...

Apple engineers say they could refuse or quit if ordered to unlock iPhone by FBI
... Apple’s refusal of the FBI’s request to assist in unlocking the iPhone of the San Bernardino gunman, The New York Times reports Apple engineers ...

QQQ on central planning and social engineers
... assertions, and actions of “Progressives” from Woodrow Wilson through Barack Obama – is the belief that society must, or should, be engineered. ...

NASA chief: Apollo engineers who criticize SLS don’t grok modern rocketry
... of the plan to build a very large rocket with a similar capability to the Saturn V used by Apollo program. He and a number of Apollo engineers ...

Apple engineers would rather quit than develop an iPhone backdoor for the FBI
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Apple engineers would rather quit than help the FBI
Some Apple engineers say they'd rather quit than help the government break security measures that Apple has placed on iPhones and iPads. Inside ...

Woz says having your engineers in Russia isn't a good idea
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The Latest: Official says engineer noticed bend in rail
PORT JEFFERSON, N.Y. (AP) — The Latest on an Amtrak passenger train that derailed in southwest Kansas.

Apple Engineers Might Resist Court Order To Weaken iPhone Encryption
... 2, 2015 shootings in San Bernardino, CA. But even if the court rules that Apple must assist the government in opening the device, some engineers ...

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