Job market observations - comp.software-eng

Seems like good news! Finished a six-month contract gig at the end of June and tickled all my jobsite resumes. Getting far more qualified calls over the last two weeks than anytime since the bubble. Rather more unqualified calls, too, my spam filter is getting more entries every day. I'm open to either contract or perm positions. Most calls are still at modest salaries, but there is more of a spattering of calls where the rates/salaries are back up somewhat. This is for me, a heavily experienced guy doing mostly Microsoft platform commercial apps in Los Angeles. I'm somewhat surprised, as my forecast for the industry as a profession (in the US) is decidely gloomy, but at least, just maybe, after the peace-bust of the early nineties that put 10,000 aerospace engineers into the commercial market, and the (profitable!) craziness of the late nineties and the bust of 2001-2004, things are at least finding a new equilibrium ... for the first time in fifteen-plus years? Yikes, that's what the numbers say, isn't it?!?! Anyone want to volunteer observations from their perspectives? J.

JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net> wrote: > Seems like good news! > > Finished a six-month contract gig at the end of June and tickled all > my jobsite resumes. Getting far more qualified calls over the last > two weeks than anytime since the bubble. Rather more unqualified > calls, too, my spam filter is getting more entries every day. I'm > open to either contract or perm positions. > > Most calls are still at modest salaries, but there is more of a > spattering of calls where the rates/salaries are back up somewhat. > This is for me, a heavily experienced guy doing mostly Microsoft > platform commercial apps in Los Angeles. > > I'm somewhat surprised, as my forecast for the industry as a > profession (in the US) is decidely gloomy, but at least, just maybe, > after the peace-bust of the early nineties that put 10,000 aerospace > engineers into the commercial market, and the (profitable!) craziness > of the late nineties and the bust of 2001-2004, things are at least > finding a new equilibrium ... for the first time in fifteen-plus > years? Yikes, that's what the numbers say, isn't it?!?! > > Anyone want to volunteer observations from their perspectives? > > J. I look at it from the other side at the moment: we're trying to hire a new developer for roughly a year now and couldn't find appropriate candidates. This is in Germany and for Java development with a strong DB background. We issue a small set of technical questions to candidates who look promising but the answers are rather disillusioning. I'm really surprised about how many don't even seem to bother to closely read the questions. Often we don't get answers for some of the questions or candidates answer different questions. This does seem to fit reports in the media that state a lack of qualified applicants in the area of engineering here in Germany. Sigh... Regards robert

"Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote in message news:3lgv26F12rvcjU1@individual.net... > JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net> wrote: >> Seems like good news! >> >> Finished a six-month contract gig at the end of June and tickled all >> my jobsite resumes. Getting far more qualified calls over the last >> two weeks than anytime since the bubble. Rather more unqualified >> calls, too, my spam filter is getting more entries every day. I'm >> open to either contract or perm positions. >> >> Most calls are still at modest salaries, but there is more of a >> spattering of calls where the rates/salaries are back up somewhat. >> This is for me, a heavily experienced guy doing mostly Microsoft >> platform commercial apps in Los Angeles. >> >> I'm somewhat surprised, as my forecast for the industry as a >> profession (in the US) is decidely gloomy, but at least, just maybe, >> after the peace-bust of the early nineties that put 10,000 aerospace >> engineers into the commercial market, and the (profitable!) craziness >> of the late nineties and the bust of 2001-2004, things are at least >> finding a new equilibrium ... for the first time in fifteen-plus >> years? Yikes, that's what the numbers say, isn't it?!?! >> >> Anyone want to volunteer observations from their perspectives? >> >> J. > > I look at it from the other side at the moment: we're trying to hire a new > developer for roughly a year now and couldn't find appropriate candidates. > This is in Germany and for Java development with a strong DB background. > We issue a small set of technical questions to candidates who look > promising but the answers are rather disillusioning. I'm really surprised > about how many don't even seem to bother to closely read the questions. > Often we don't get answers for some of the questions or candidates answer > different questions. This does seem to fit reports in the media that > state a lack of qualified applicants in the area of engineering here in > Germany. Sigh... > At what skill level are the questions (on the scale Novice, apprentice, journeyman, expert.)? > Regards > > robert >

David Lightstone <david._NoSpamlightstone@prodigy.net> wrote: > "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote in message > news:3lgv26F12rvcjU1@individual.net... >> JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net> wrote: >>> Seems like good news! >>> >>> Finished a six-month contract gig at the end of June and tickled all >>> my jobsite resumes. Getting far more qualified calls over the last >>> two weeks than anytime since the bubble. Rather more unqualified >>> calls, too, my spam filter is getting more entries every day. I'm >>> open to either contract or perm positions. >>> >>> Most calls are still at modest salaries, but there is more of a >>> spattering of calls where the rates/salaries are back up somewhat. >>> This is for me, a heavily experienced guy doing mostly Microsoft >>> platform commercial apps in Los Angeles. >>> >>> I'm somewhat surprised, as my forecast for the industry as a >>> profession (in the US) is decidely gloomy, but at least, just maybe, >>> after the peace-bust of the early nineties that put 10,000 aerospace >>> engineers into the commercial market, and the (profitable!) >>> craziness of the late nineties and the bust of 2001-2004, things >>> are at least finding a new equilibrium ... for the first time in >>> fifteen-plus years? Yikes, that's what the numbers say, isn't >>> it?!?! Anyone want to volunteer observations from their perspectives? >>> >>> J. >> >> I look at it from the other side at the moment: we're trying to hire >> a new developer for roughly a year now and couldn't find appropriate >> candidates. This is in Germany and for Java development with a >> strong DB background. We issue a small set of technical questions to >> candidates who look promising but the answers are rather >> disillusioning. I'm really surprised about how many don't even seem >> to bother to closely read the questions. Often we don't get answers >> for some of the questions or candidates answer different questions. This >> does seem to fit reports in the media that state a lack of >> qualified applicants in the area of engineering here in Germany. Sigh... > > At what skill level are the questions (on the scale Novice, > apprentice, journeyman, expert.)? Different levels. There is a fairly basic one about the necessity of using ref counting for memory cleanup. There's another one that I'd regard medium difficulty where applicants have to look at ~10 lines of code and detect that there might be a ConcurrentModificationException thrown; strangely, only few catch this. Then there are two DB related questions where the candidate has to know (or look up) the differences between isolation levels and must have an idea about optimizer behavior. Not exactly rocket science but admittedly not easy either. Note, that we never put a time deadline, so folks can use the weekend, Google or whatever to come up with decent answers. Kind regards robert

"Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote in message news:3lk35fF11jl57U1@individual.net... > David Lightstone <david._NoSpamlightstone@prodigy.net> wrote: >> "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote in message >> news:3lgv26F12rvcjU1@individual.net... >>> JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net> wrote: >>>> Seems like good news! >>>> >>>> Finished a six-month contract gig at the end of June and tickled all >>>> my jobsite resumes. Getting far more qualified calls over the last >>>> two weeks than anytime since the bubble. Rather more unqualified >>>> calls, too, my spam filter is getting more entries every day. I'm >>>> open to either contract or perm positions. >>>> >>>> Most calls are still at modest salaries, but there is more of a >>>> spattering of calls where the rates/salaries are back up somewhat. >>>> This is for me, a heavily experienced guy doing mostly Microsoft >>>> platform commercial apps in Los Angeles. >>>> >>>> I'm somewhat surprised, as my forecast for the industry as a >>>> profession (in the US) is decidely gloomy, but at least, just maybe, >>>> after the peace-bust of the early nineties that put 10,000 aerospace >>>> engineers into the commercial market, and the (profitable!) >>>> craziness of the late nineties and the bust of 2001-2004, things >>>> are at least finding a new equilibrium ... for the first time in >>>> fifteen-plus years? Yikes, that's what the numbers say, isn't >>>> it?!?! Anyone want to volunteer observations from their perspectives? >>>> >>>> J. >>> >>> I look at it from the other side at the moment: we're trying to hire >>> a new developer for roughly a year now and couldn't find appropriate >>> candidates. This is in Germany and for Java development with a >>> strong DB background. We issue a small set of technical questions to >>> candidates who look promising but the answers are rather >>> disillusioning. I'm really surprised about how many don't even seem >>> to bother to closely read the questions. Often we don't get answers >>> for some of the questions or candidates answer different questions. This >>> does seem to fit reports in the media that state a lack of >>> qualified applicants in the area of engineering here in Germany. Sigh... >> >> At what skill level are the questions (on the scale Novice, >> apprentice, journeyman, expert.)? > > Different levels. There is a fairly basic one about the necessity of > using ref counting for memory cleanup. There's another one that I'd > regard medium difficulty where applicants have to look at ~10 lines of > code and detect that there might be a ConcurrentModificationException > thrown; strangely, only few catch this. > > Then there are two DB related questions where the candidate has to know > (or look up) the differences between isolation levels and must have an > idea about optimizer behavior. Not exactly rocket science but admittedly > not easy either. Note, that we never put a time deadline, so folks can > use the weekend, Google or whatever to come up with decent answers. > You have probably ordered the questions so as to implement a skill filter, easier first, more difficult later. The final ones being the ones of real interest to up. Not having a background in either Java or multiuser databases I can only speculate. I assume that by optimizer behavior you mean query optimization, rather than compilier generated code optimizaztion. That caveot having been stated, I conclude between journeyman and expert. Dave Lightstone > Kind regards > > robert >

David Lightstone <david._NoSpamlightstone@prodigy.net> wrote: > "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote in message > news:3lk35fF11jl57U1@individual.net... >> David Lightstone <david._NoSpamlightstone@prodigy.net> wrote: >>> "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote in message >>> news:3lgv26F12rvcjU1@individual.net... >>>> JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net> wrote: >>>>> Seems like good news! >>>>> >>>>> Finished a six-month contract gig at the end of June and tickled >>>>> all my jobsite resumes. Getting far more qualified calls over >>>>> the last two weeks than anytime since the bubble. Rather more >>>>> unqualified calls, too, my spam filter is getting more entries >>>>> every day. I'm open to either contract or perm positions. >>>>> >>>>> Most calls are still at modest salaries, but there is more of a >>>>> spattering of calls where the rates/salaries are back up somewhat. >>>>> This is for me, a heavily experienced guy doing mostly Microsoft >>>>> platform commercial apps in Los Angeles. >>>>> >>>>> I'm somewhat surprised, as my forecast for the industry as a >>>>> profession (in the US) is decidely gloomy, but at least, just >>>>> maybe, after the peace-bust of the early nineties that put 10,000 >>>>> aerospace engineers into the commercial market, and the >>>>> (profitable!) craziness of the late nineties and the bust of >>>>> 2001-2004, things are at least finding a new equilibrium ... for the >>>>> first time in >>>>> fifteen-plus years? Yikes, that's what the numbers say, isn't >>>>> it?!?! Anyone want to volunteer observations from their >>>>> perspectives? J. >>>> >>>> I look at it from the other side at the moment: we're trying to >>>> hire a new developer for roughly a year now and couldn't find >>>> appropriate candidates. This is in Germany and for Java >>>> development with a strong DB background. We issue a small set of >>>> technical questions >>>> to candidates who look promising but the answers are rather >>>> disillusioning. I'm really surprised about how many don't even >>>> seem to bother to closely read the questions. Often we don't get >>>> answers >>>> for some of the questions or candidates answer different >>>> questions. This does seem to fit reports in the media that state a >>>> lack of qualified applicants in the area of engineering here in >>>> Germany. >>>> Sigh... >>> >>> At what skill level are the questions (on the scale Novice, >>> apprentice, journeyman, expert.)? >> >> Different levels. There is a fairly basic one about the necessity of >> using ref counting for memory cleanup. There's another one that I'd >> regard medium difficulty where applicants have to look at ~10 lines >> of code and detect that there might be a >> ConcurrentModificationException thrown; strangely, only few catch >> this. Then there are two DB related questions where the candidate has to >> know (or look up) the differences between isolation levels and must >> have an idea about optimizer behavior. Not exactly rocket science >> but admittedly not easy either. Note, that we never put a time >> deadline, so folks can use the weekend, Google or whatever to come >> up with decent answers. > > You have probably ordered the questions so as to implement a skill > filter, easier first, more difficult later. The final ones being the > ones of real interest to up. The reason the easier ones come first is rather a psychological one. We don't want to discourage folks with the first question. > Not having a background in either Java or multiuser databases I can > only speculate. I assume that by optimizer behavior you mean query > optimization, rather than compilier generated code optimizaztion. Exactly. > That caveot having been stated, I conclude between journeyman and > expert. Probably. I rather tend to journeyman - but perspectives differ. Anyway, the original issue was that we simply couldn't hire someone up to now. Kind regards robert

On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:58:11 +0200, "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote: >I look at it from the other side at the moment: we're trying to hire a new >developer for roughly a year now and couldn't find appropriate candidates. >This is in Germany and for Java development with a strong DB background. Seems very, very, very rare to find developers who know much about both a current 3GL and RDBMS. In fact, it's very, very rare to find much expertise beyond the basics in RDBMS at all. I know in the US, it's an old tradition and stronger than ever that programmers don't read and seldom test well (at least, the correlation is tiny between those who test well and those who develop well!). Are you in a major city? Is the salary offered reasonable? I'd go off on a rant about testing, or the hiring process, or the proper reading of resumes, but those are all other topics. Getting somewhat back to the job market, have you considered hiring someone who knows one area and expresses an interest in the other? J.

JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net> wrote: > On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:58:11 +0200, "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> > wrote: >> I look at it from the other side at the moment: we're trying to hire >> a new developer for roughly a year now and couldn't find appropriate >> candidates. This is in Germany and for Java development with a >> strong DB background. > > Seems very, very, very rare to find developers who know much about > both a current 3GL and RDBMS. In fact, it's very, very rare to find > much expertise beyond the basics in RDBMS at all. That's in sync with my observations. > I know in the US, it's an old tradition and stronger than ever that > programmers don't read and seldom test well (at least, the correlation > is tiny between those who test well and those who develop well!). > > Are you in a major city? Is the salary offered reasonable? Unfortunately we're not in a major city - if I was located in Frankfurt/M. area I'm sure we would have hired someone already a long time ago. About the salary, there were only so few cases where we came to negotiating a salary. And nobody turned us down because of the money - at least noone said so. > I'd go off on a rant about testing, or the hiring process, or the > proper reading of resumes, but those are all other topics. We don't only read the resume. But of course the letter / email and the CV are the first things we evaluate and of course we have rejected candidates because of that. > Getting somewhat back to the job market, have you considered hiring > someone who knows one area and expresses an interest in the other? Yes. Unfortunately the more important part is DB - which also seems to be the area of expertise which is rarely found. :-} Kind regards robert

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:52:05 +0200, "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote: >> Are you in a major city? Is the salary offered reasonable? > >Unfortunately we're not in a major city - if I was located in Frankfurt/M. >area I'm sure we would have hired someone already a long time ago. About >the salary, there were only so few cases where we came to negotiating a >salary. And nobody turned us down because of the money - at least noone >said so. Well, I seldom say so, either, even when it's true, but salary these days, at least here in the US, is such a problem because of globalization that the whole topic is a swamp. Hiring technical people in outlying parts of the US is a problem, too. >> Getting somewhat back to the job market, have you considered hiring >> someone who knows one area and expresses an interest in the other? > >Yes. Unfortunately the more important part is DB - which also seems to be >the area of expertise which is rarely found. :-} I was trying to hire a DBA, or what is now being called a "data architect", someone to hold down the database side of a major development project. Out of hundreds of resumes (90% from Indians), only a handfull were the least bit interesting, that is, convincing, and even out of those, I quickly found that maybe one in five could tell me what first, second, and third normal form were all about. My gosh, that's the kind of stuff I thought any Java or VB developer ought to know, even if they knew nothing else about RDBMS. Guess I was wrong. Since then, I've been doing mostly database stuff myself, development and performance tuning, mostly. Interesting field, generally abused in most projects, for that matter generally abused by Microsoft, but I digree ... J.

Robert Klemme wrote: [...] > I look at it from the other side at the moment: we're trying to hire a > new developer for roughly a year now and couldn't find appropriate > candidates. This is in Germany and for Java development with a strong DB > background. Well, your company home page says that there currently are no job offers. > We issue a small set of technical questions to candidates > who look promising but the answers are rather disillusioning. I'm > really surprised about how many don't even seem to bother to closely > read the questions. Often we don't get answers for some of the > questions or candidates answer different questions. This does seem to > fit reports in the media that state a lack of qualified applicants in > the area of engineering here in Germany. Sigh... Other (often American companies) search programmers in Germany because they are experienced and (compared to wages in Silicon Valley) reasonably cheap. There could be several reasons why your company doesn't find good programmers. (a) Maybe you don't pay good wages? Good programmers are not cheap. (b) You expect a programmer to already know every tool and technique you are using, instead of allowing for learning things (c) Maybe you announce the job opportunity in the wrong places/media? There are not too many experienced Java programmers in rural areas, the job opportunity should be published in a wider area Personally I've frequently seen (b). I've been sometimes mentoring students for a company I used to work for. When they started, some of them would have failed the easiest test you describe. After some weeks, some of them would solve complete projects on their own, while some turned out wrong for the job. The art is to find the good ones ;-) In Germany it's comparably easy for an employer to differentiate between the two, because there is a 6 month probation period where both employer and employee can terminate the contract with short notice (two weeks?). So my advice is: search for competent, good programmers. Don't expect them to already know everything, but give them some time to learn. If your company cannot pay too much, try to give university students a chance. Heiner -- ___ _ / __| |_ _____ _____ _ _ Heiner STEVEN <heiner.steven@nexgo.de> \__ \ _/ -_) V / -_) ' \ Shell Script Programmers: visit |___/\__\___|\_/\___|_||_| http://www.shelldorado.com/

> (a) Maybe you don't pay good wages? Good programmers are not cheap. > (b) You expect a programmer to already know every tool and > technique you are using, instead of allowing for learning things i agree 100 % to the above as the major factors.. c) is there a reason that the best ppl are not applying to ur company? location, management policy, salary, bad publicity.. can be a reason. what u r asking for is not a very difficult combination,and ur question set is reasonable enough.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:20:17 UTC, Heiner Steven <heiner.steven@nexgo.de> wrote: > Robert Klemme wrote: > <snip> > > The art is to find the good ones ;-) > > In Germany it's comparably easy for an employer to differentiate > between the two, because there is a 6 month probation period where > both employer and employee can terminate the contract with > short notice (two weeks?). > > So my advice is: search for competent, good programmers. Don't > expect them to already know everything, but give them some > time to learn. If your company cannot pay too much, try to give > university students a chance. > > > Heiner Just a comment for those that can affect staffing, Herein lies one of the problems management can make when making staffing decisions. A group usually isn't allowed to grow until there is some obvious need for new talent. I've seen many employers make the mistake of wanting high quality help but only willing to afford the more reasonable talent when they actually make the decision to hire. New talent may have the requisit skills, but they may be unfamiliar with the finer points of how and why certain things are done within your business. Thus, there is a learning curve for all new talent. Rather than expecting or demanding more from the new-hires, why not plan to grow your talent base in the direction that you want to go? The ramp up time you allow people generally pays off in the long run. We need employers to consider that embracing the cycles that occur in development with rapid changes in staffing makes the problem worse. David

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