f



�bernachtungen in K�ln sind blo� �rgerlich - � � � � �

I need to test something with Pluto, a news posting with the
subject line in German (+ a few other top bit set chars).

No need for a response!

Thanks!!

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/4/2016 8:43:54 PM
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I need to test some things with Pluto, a news posting with
the sending address line in German (+ a few other top bit
set chars).

No need for a response!


Thanks!!

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/4/2016 8:54:29 PM
In message <55e95b6adasee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
          Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:

>I need to test something with Pluto, a news posting with the
>subject line in German (+ a few other top bit set chars).

-> at.test for example.

I have here a problem with Messenger Pro: Whenever I want to use names
like "Alpend�dl", "Alpent�pl" or anything else which contains �, �, �, �
etc. in the from field (header) I cannot send / post any news because
MessengerPro (here 6.06) gives errors. But I can send successfully
emails using such names!

A.

-- 
http://home.chiemgau-net.de/ausserstorfer/
Vollpfosten
0
Alexander
12/5/2016 2:53:31 PM
In article <e82fbfe955.Alex@bavariasound.chiemgau-net.de>,
   Alexander Ausserstorfer <bavariasound@chiemgau-net.de>
wrote:
> In message <55e95b6adasee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
>           Russell Hafter News
>           <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:

> >I need to test something with Pluto, a news posting with
> >the subject line in German (+ a few other top bit set
> >chars).

> -> at.test for example.

> I have here a problem with Messenger Pro: Whenever I want
> to use names like "Alpend�dl", "Alpent�pl" or anything
> else which contains �, �, �, � etc. in the from field
> (header) I cannot send / post any news because
> MessengerPro (here 6.06) gives errors. But I can send
> successfully emails using such names!

Which is why I wanted to see what happens with Pluto.

Pluto just gives advisory warnings that certain chars should
not be used.

But the news postings do go through as written anyway.

From which I deduce that it is either a 'bug' or a 'feature'
in Messenger.

I do not have any other newsreaders to play with, neither
Risc OS nor Windows.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/5/2016 3:23:43 PM
In article <55e9c1f2a5see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>, Russell Hafter
News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> I do not have any other newsreaders to play with, neither Risc OS nor
> Windows.

Just goes to show how quiet these groups are these days. 

Not long ago there would have been a diversion into the relative merits
of writing "Risc OS", "Risc[half space]PC", "RISC OS" and why someone
thought design ideas like that are great (because they confuse even
long-term users). Or something. Whether it matters perhaps, now that Risc
PCs must be nearly at the end of life and Google searches rule.
Eventually, Risc[half space]PC users who sit and stare at that logo all
day will realise that even a RasperryPi would be a *massive* performance
upgrade and eventually "RISC OS" will be fully assimilated.  ;-)

Someone would tell us the importance of accuracy to prevent confusion
with an obscure and now defunct OS with a similar name which nobody has
ever seen in the wild and which can't be found with a search for "Risc
OS". Guess what can.

There could even be a diversion into the world of SciFi about how Doctor
Who is never called that (except in the movies, the Radio Times and the
show's original credits of course).

After a brief bit of banter which inevitably drifts, [insert name] would
join the conversation only to say "STFU that's not irrelevant!" 

Oh, how quiet these groups are these days, but didn't that save a lot of
time?

Merry Christmas.

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/5/2016 4:24:27 PM
In message <55e9c1f2a5see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
 on 5 Dec 2016 Russell Hafter News  wrote:

> > >I need to test something with Pluto, a news posting with the subject
> > >line in German (+ a few other top bit set chars).

I received the message here with Messenger Pro 7.08 (yes, sorry, probably a
little out of date) and in the display of the subject line none of the
top-bit-set characters appear, so it looks like

Re: bernachungen in Kln sid blo rgerlich -

But when I started replying, these characters appear as question marks in the
writable icon for the subject. It will be interesting to see if they
magically get retained as the original character or whether you will receive
a message with question marks in the subject line:

Re: ?bernachtungen in K?ln sing blo? ?rgerlich - ? ? ? ? ?

When I look at the raw message in Messenger, the headers appear like this:

#! rmail 0000002306
Path: buffer2.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.fsmpi.rwth-aachen.de!newsfeed.straub-nv.de!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.misc
Subject: Re: �bernachtungen in K�ln sind blo� �rgerlich - � � � � �
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 15:23:43 +0000 (GMT)
....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
....
User-Agent: Pluto/3.16 (RISC OS/4.02) NewsHound/v1.52-32

so the subject line has been encoded in ISO Latin 1 (or perhaps, more
accurately speaking, has not been encoded at all). Note the Content-Type line
which stipulates the character set as ISO Latin 1 also.

The problem with e-mail (and this may not entirely apply to newgroups as the
protocols are different) is that the character set in the Content-Type header
line only applies to the body of the message, not to the headers.  Headers
are supposed to be in 7-bit ASCII and there is a different way of encoding
material in headers to cope with this.  Not very many RISC OS e-mail or news
applications properly convert all characters.  I know that ImpEmail does,
because I read the standards carefully and tested by sending messages to a
few other e-mail packages.

The way the subject header should be encoded is as follows:

Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=DCbernachtungen_in_K=F6ln_sind_blo=DF_=E4rgerlich?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_-_=B6_=A1_=A7_=E7_=E8?=

But there are other ways of doing it: it could be encoded in UTF-8. Indeed,
as I fetched my e-mail to test ImpEmail sending the above subject line, a
message came in from somewhere else and eSpeak tried to read out

=?utf-8?Q?J=20&=20J=20Lubrano=20Music=20Antiquarians?=

without decoding it first.  Note that there are in fact no top-bit-set
characters in that line, so the effort on the part of "MailChimp Mailer" was
unnecessary.

Some RISC OS e-mail packages make the mistake of assuming that any characters
used by users are in ISO Latin 1, even though Acorn extended into the
undefined character range from 128 to 159 to create Acorn Latin 1 which has
support for letter used in Welsh, among other things.  ImpEmail will convert
these to UTF-8 properly on sending, though it does not yet allow you to
compose e-mails using the full range of Unicode characters.

-- 
Matthew Phillips
Durham
0
Matthew
12/6/2016 3:15:47 PM
In article <c00f45ea55.Matthew@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <55e9c1f2a5see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
>  on 5 Dec 2016 Russell Hafter News  wrote:

> > > >I need to test something with Pluto, a news posting
> > > >with the subject line in German (+ a few other top
> > > >bit set chars).

> I received the message here with Messenger Pro 7.08 (yes,
> sorry, probably a little out of date)

It is still newer than the version Alex is using. And that
means that the result is more interesting, showing that, for
whatever reason, Messenger cannot cope as well as Pluto does
with unusual chars in a news posting.

> and in the display of the subject line none of the
> top-bit-set characters appear, so it looks like

> Re: bernachungen in Kln sid blo rgerlich -

> But when I started replying, these characters appear as
> question marks in the writable icon for the subject. It
> will be interesting to see if they magically get retained
> as the original character or whether you will receive a
> message with question marks in the subject line:

Clealy, Messenger has lost the original chars, though it is
- sort of - aware that it is making a mess of what has been
posted (even if one can argue that these chars should not be
there in the first place).

> Re: ?bernachtungen in K?ln sing blo? ?rgerlich - ? ? ? ? ?

> When I look at the raw message in Messenger, the headers
> appear like this:

> #! rmail 0000002306
> Path: buffer2.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.fsmpi.rwth-aachen.de!newsfeed.straub-nv.de!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.misc
> Subject: Re: �bernachtungen in K�ln sind blo� �rgerlich - > � � � � �
> Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 15:23:43 +0000 (GMT)
> ...
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> ...
> User-Agent: Pluto/3.16 (RISC OS/4.02) NewsHound/v1.52-32

> so the subject line has been encoded in ISO Latin 1 (or
> perhaps, more accurately speaking, has not been encoded at
> all). Note the Content-Type line which stipulates the
> character set as ISO Latin 1 also.

Indeed, Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit makes it clear that
I have set Pluto to send top-bit-set chars without encoding
them as quoted-printable or something else.

> The problem with e-mail (and this may not entirely apply
> to newgroups as the protocols are different) is that the
> character set in the Content-Type header line only
> applies to the body of the message, not to the headers. 
> Headers are supposed to be in 7-bit ASCII and there is a
> different way of encoding material in headers to cope
> with this.

Thanks for that explanation. I have long wondered about why
some e-mail software sent Subect lines in the format you
describe below, starting with such as Subject:  
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=DCbernachtungen. It seems such a rediculous
kludge when, AIUI, modern e-mail software is quite happy
with top-bit-set chars.

> Not very many RISC OS e-mail or news applications
> properly convert all characters.  I know that ImpEmail
> does, because I read the standards carefully and tested
> by sending messages to a few other e-mail packages.

> The way the subject header should be encoded is as
> follows:

> Subject:
>  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=DCbernachtungen_in_K=F6ln_sind_blo=DF_=E4rgerlich?=
>  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_-_=B6_=A1_=A7_=E7_=E8?=

> But there are other ways of doing it: it could be encoded
> in UTF-8. Indeed, as I fetched my e-mail to test ImpEmail
> sending the above subject line, a message came in from
> somewhere else and eSpeak tried to read out

> =?utf-8?Q?J=20&=20J=20Lubrano=20Music=20Antiquarians?=

> without decoding it first.  Note that there are in fact
> no top-bit-set characters in that line, so the effort on
> the part of "MailChimp Mailer" was unnecessary.

Recent developements with Pluto have resulted in it coping
well with UTF-8 encoded e-mails. In my experience, these
(including the subject line) are always also base64 encoded,
presumably to completely ensure that no top-bit-set-chars
appear anywhere in the e-mail.

Pluto does still have some problems with UTF-8/base64
encoded subject lines, but I understand that this is being
looked into.

> Some RISC OS e-mail packages make the mistake of assuming
> that any characters used by users are in ISO Latin 1,
> even though Acorn extended into the undefined character
> range from 128 to 159 to create Acorn Latin 1 which has
> support for letter used in Welsh, among other things. 
> ImpEmail will convert these to UTF-8 properly on sending,
> though it does not yet allow you to compose e-mails using
> the full range of Unicode characters.

I can only speak for Pluto on this.

I find that if all chars in the e-mail are 7 bit, then the
declaration is Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii

If there is even one 8 bit char (most likely to be a '�'
sign) included, then it switches to 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 
Pluto seems to happily switch between these two options.

But there is (or at least used to be - I have not checked
the latest version with this situation) a bug which appears
when you reply to an e-mail with charset=ISO-8859-2 upwards.

What happens is (or was) that Pluto insited on using
charset=ISO-8859-2 etc as the charset for the reply, and for
every other e-mail sent until Pluto is quit and restarted.

This caused problems with e-mail in English, but using '�'
signs as the ISO-8859-2 symbol that corresponds to '�' in
ISO-8859-1 is the Polish 'dark L' (an L with a stroke acss
the upright).

Of course, Alex's problem could be solved the way German
banks still do in their bank statements and only use 7 bit
chars, replacing � with oe and � with ss (and 
German-speaking Swiss have never bothered with � anyway,
always using ss - much simpler!)

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/6/2016 8:00:32 PM
In message <55ea5f21b0see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
 on 6 Dec 2016 Russell Hafter News  wrote:

> In article <c00f45ea55.Matthew@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > I received the message here with Messenger Pro 7.08 (yes,
> > sorry, probably a little out of date)
> 
> It is still newer than the version Alex is using. And that
> means that the result is more interesting, showing that, for
> whatever reason, Messenger cannot cope as well as Pluto does
> with unusual chars in a news posting.

Well it is debatable, given that they should not be there in the first place,
as to whether the correct behaviour is to omit them or to guess what
character set they might be encoded in.

> > The problem with e-mail (and this may not entirely apply to newgroups as
> > the protocols are different) is that the character set in the
> > Content-Type header line only applies to the body of the message, not to
> > the headers.  Headers are supposed to be in 7-bit ASCII and there is a
> > different way of encoding material in headers to cope with this.
> 
> Thanks for that explanation. I have long wondered about why
> some e-mail software sent Subect lines in the format you
> describe below, starting with such as Subject:  
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=DCbernachtungen. It seems such a rediculous
> kludge when, AIUI, modern e-mail software is quite happy
> with top-bit-set chars.

Modern e-mail software will be, but the problem originally comes from the
fact that e-mails have to pass through servers too.  The protocols for
transmitting the e-mails only guaranteed the safety of 7-bit characters, and
so there was a time when some servers would have rejected or mangled
messages.  That's why the kludges were devised, and standardised.
 
> Recent developements with Pluto have resulted in it coping
> well with UTF-8 encoded e-mails. In my experience, these
> (including the subject line) are always also base64 encoded,
> presumably to completely ensure that no top-bit-set-chars
> appear anywhere in the e-mail.

That's exactly why it is done like that. The main problem is that mail
transfer software has to be able to read the headers, but does not have to be
able to process the body of the message.  So the header remains a 7-bit only
zone.

Base-64 in header lines would be introduced by B instead of Q (which stands
for quoted-printable).  So you would get

Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?......

instead of

Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?......
 
> > Some RISC OS e-mail packages make the mistake of assuming
> > that any characters used by users are in ISO Latin 1,
> > even though Acorn extended into the undefined character
> > range from 128 to 159 to create Acorn Latin 1 which has
> > support for letter used in Welsh, among other things. 
> > ImpEmail will convert these to UTF-8 properly on sending,
> > though it does not yet allow you to compose e-mails using
> > the full range of Unicode characters.
> 
> I can only speak for Pluto on this.
> 
> I find that if all chars in the e-mail are 7 bit, then the
> declaration is Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii
> 
> If there is even one 8 bit char (most likely to be a '�'
> sign) included, then it switches to 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  
> Pluto seems to happily switch between these two options.

Well the test will be what happens if you include a w-circumflex in an
e-mail. Does Pluto still declare the character set as ISO-8859-1?
 
-- 
Matthew Phillips
Durham
0
Matthew
12/7/2016 8:12:24 PM
In article <b70de4ea55.Matthew@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Well the test will be what happens if you include a
> w-circumflex in an e-mail. Does Pluto still declare the
> character set as ISO-8859-1?

I have just sent myself an e-mail with w-circumflex (and
y-circumflex) in the body, and w-circumflex in the subject.

Pluto complains that these are not ISO-8859-1 chars when
queueing to send, offering the choice of manual editing,
letting Pluto make automatic corrections to w and y, or
continuing anyway.

[Pluto also does this when one quotes e-mails that have come
from windows users who have included 'smart' quaotes,
em-dashes and so on.]

I sent the e-mail as written; it was delivered as written.

Charset declared as ISO-8859-1,
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Test_=81=82?=

So presumably under a different OS different chars would
actually be displayed.

When I have wanted to send an e-mail with Latin 2 chars such
as s-caron or c-acute I have resorted to writing the e-mail
as normal, inserting the special chars using Martin
W�rthner's X-Chars (which looks odd, clearly), then changing
the header from ISO-8859-1 to ISO-8859-2.

Also a kludge, but it works.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/8/2016 10:14:29 AM
In message <55eb312611see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
 on 8 Dec 2016 Russell Hafter News  wrote:

> In article <b70de4ea55.Matthew@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Well the test will be what happens if you include a
> > w-circumflex in an e-mail. Does Pluto still declare the
> > character set as ISO-8859-1?
> 
> I have just sent myself an e-mail with w-circumflex (and
> y-circumflex) in the body, and w-circumflex in the subject.
> 
> Pluto complains that these are not ISO-8859-1 chars when
> queueing to send, offering the choice of manual editing,
> letting Pluto make automatic corrections to w and y, or
> continuing anyway.
> 
> [Pluto also does this when one quotes e-mails that have come
> from windows users who have included 'smart' quaotes,
> em-dashes and so on.]
> 
> I sent the e-mail as written; it was delivered as written.
> 
> Charset declared as ISO-8859-1,
> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Test_=81=82?=
> 
> So presumably under a different OS different chars would
> actually be displayed.

Yes, that is correct. Or possibly no characters would be displayed at all,
given that these characters do not exist in ISO Latin 1.

At least Pluto warns you of the problem.  Messenger Pro 7.08 just constructs
the message in the same way without any warning.  (That's when using Zap to
edit the message: not sure if using teh internal editor behaves differently.)

Amusingly, Messenger is happy to send a message containing w- and
y-circumflex in the subject line or body of the message, but when displaying
the message in the outgoing mail queue or after receipt those characters are
invisible.

-- 
Matthew Phillips
Durham
0
Matthew
12/8/2016 9:40:49 PM
In article <55e9c78177tim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> Eventually, Risc[half space]PC users who sit and stare at that logo all
> day will realise that even a RasperryPi would be a *massive* performance
> upgrade and eventually "RISC OS" will be fully assimilated.  ;-)

Would that be a Pi, a Pi2, Pi2+ or a Pi3?

Oh, and with or without the enhancements that made it into the build in
recent days?

Says he using the oldest machine he has rather than the new one(s)

--

Steve Pampling
0
spampling
12/15/2016 3:17:09 PM
In article <55eee7b59espam.pling@btinternet.com>, spampling
<spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <55e9c78177tim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
>    <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> > Eventually, Risc[half space]PC users who sit and stare at that logo
> > all day will realise that even a RasperryPi would be a *massive*
> > performance upgrade and eventually "RISC OS" will be fully
> > assimilated.  ;-)

> Would that be a Pi, a Pi2, Pi2+ or a Pi3?

Any that run RISC OS are step change away from RiscPC performance.

My 'Pi 2 Model B V1.1' is running RISC OS 5.21 I bought on a microSD card
quite happily, there's no need to be at the bleeding edge of releases.

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/16/2016 10:02:01 AM
In article <55ef4eb01ctim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <55eee7b59espam.pling@btinternet.com>, spampling
> <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > In article <55e9c78177tim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
> >    <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> > > Eventually, Risc[half space]PC users who sit and stare at that logo
> > > all day will realise that even a RasperryPi would be a *massive*
> > > performance upgrade and eventually "RISC OS" will be fully
> > > assimilated.  ;-)

> > Would that be a Pi, a Pi2, Pi2+ or a Pi3?

> Any that run RISC OS are step change away from RiscPC performance.

Well lets be honest, there's a few years on the diary for the RPC so it's
no surprise it's slow. It's from the 486 PC era.

> My 'Pi 2 Model B V1.1' is running RISC OS 5.21 I bought on a microSD card
> quite happily, there's no need to be at the bleeding edge of releases.

True, although something a bit more recent than 5.21 might not go amiss.
Perhaps you're waiting for a "stable" release with a 5.24 label?

What does puzzle me is why people don't shell out the minimal cost of a Pi.
Word processing? Ovation and Ovation Pro fit the bill [1], games lovers
ADFFS seems to support a rather large set of the old games and new ones are
appearing for native use.
Or am I missing the elephant in the room when I consider why people aren't
using RISC OS on modern hardware?

[1] Impression lovers are out of luck as Impression-X isn't quite the
finished article.

-- 

Steve Pampling
0
spampling
12/17/2016 12:53:40 PM
In article <55efe23e52spam.pling@btinternet.com>, spampling
<spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <55ef4eb01ctim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk>
>    wrote:
> > In article <55eee7b59espam.pling@btinternet.com>, spampling
> > <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > > In article <55e9c78177tim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
> > >    <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> > > > Eventually, Risc[half space]PC users who sit and stare at that logo
> > > > all day will realise that even a RasperryPi would be a *massive*
> > > > performance upgrade and eventually "RISC OS" will be fully
> > > > assimilated.  ;-)

> > > Would that be a Pi, a Pi2, Pi2+ or a Pi3?

> > Any that run RISC OS are step change away from RiscPC performance.

> Well lets be honest, there's a few years on the diary for the RPC so it's
> no surprise it's slow. It's from the 486 PC era.

> > My 'Pi 2 Model B V1.1' is running RISC OS 5.21 I bought on a microSD
> > card quite happily, there's no need to be at the bleeding edge of
> > releases.

> True, although something a bit more recent than 5.21 might not go amiss.
> Perhaps you're waiting for a "stable" release with a 5.24 label?

> What does puzzle me is why people don't shell out the minimal cost of a
> Pi. Word processing? Ovation and Ovation Pro fit the bill [1], games
> lovers ADFFS seems to support a rather large set of the old games and new
> ones are appearing for native use. Or am I missing the elephant in the
> room when I consider why people aren't using RISC OS on modern hardware?

ARMX6 is my main beast with OS 5.23, I also have a PiTop.  How much more
modern can I go?

> [1] Impression lovers are out of luck as Impression-X isn't quite the
> finished article.

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/17/2016 1:33:47 PM
In article <55efe23e52spam.pling@btinternet.com>,
   spampling <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > Any that run RISC OS are step change away from RiscPC performance.

> Well lets be honest, there's a few years on the diary for the RPC so it's
> no surprise it's slow. It's from the 486 PC era.

That doesn't seem to be a problem for the things I actually use it for.

> > My 'Pi 2 Model B V1.1' is running RISC OS 5.21 I bought on a microSD
> > card quite happily, there's no need to be at the bleeding edge of
> > releases.

> True, although something a bit more recent than 5.21 might not go amiss.
> Perhaps you're waiting for a "stable" release with a 5.24 label?

> What does puzzle me is why people don't shell out the minimal cost of a
> Pi. Word processing? Ovation and Ovation Pro fit the bill [1], games
> lovers ADFFS seems to support a rather large set of the old games and
> new ones are appearing for native use. Or am I missing the elephant in
> the room when I consider why people aren't using RISC OS on modern
> hardware?

Quite simple. I don't want a pile of bits where this RPC currently is. It
would mean building a Pi into a box containing all I need. But I don't use
it to play games on so perhaps that accounts for not being too worried
about speed. 

> [1] Impression lovers are out of luck as Impression-X isn't quite the
> finished article.

I'm still pretty happy with Publisher Plus on this machine. For the
limited amount of DTP I do.

-- 
*I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
Dave
12/17/2016 1:59:19 PM
In article <55efe23e52spam.pling@btinternet.com>, spampling
<spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:

> What does puzzle me is why people don't shell out the
> minimal cost of a Pi.

1] TBH I have no idea what a fully packaged and working R-Pi
would cost. Are a new monitor, keyboard and mouse required,
or are the ones I use with my RPC and PC OK?

2] What would I do with my RPCs?

3] My StrongARM RPCs run Pluto, Newshound, POPStar + Mailer,
so that is e-mail and news largely taken care of. Recent
developments mean that Pluto is much better than it was at
dealing with HTML e-mail.

They also run Easiwiter fine for the little WP stuff that I
do these days, and Pipedream, which has all the spreadsheet
functions I ever need, plus a whole lot more that I do not
need.

Modern hardware might well open larger files in 0.01sec
rather than 1sec, but is that really significant?

I can see that if one wants to fiddle around with large
photographs, then one needs more speed than an RPC. But that
is not some thing that I am ever likely to want to do.

An R-Pi is never going to let me do online financial stuff,
transport or accommodation booking, so it would not help me
there.

What am I missing?

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/17/2016 2:43:30 PM
In article <55efec4c2dsee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <55efe23e52spam.pling@btinternet.com>, spampling
> <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > What does puzzle me is why people don't shell out the
> > minimal cost of a Pi.

> 1] TBH I have no idea what a fully packaged and working R-Pi
> would cost. Are a new monitor, keyboard and mouse required,
> or are the ones I use with my RPC and PC OK?

An RPC monitor uses an SVG connectiom, the Pi an HDMI one, so either a
modern monotor or an adaptor.  You'd also need a USB keyboard and a mouse.


> 2] What would I do with my RPCs?

> 3] My StrongARM RPCs run Pluto, Newshound, POPStar + Mailer,
> so that is e-mail and news largely taken care of. Recent
> developments mean that Pluto is much better than it was at
> dealing with HTML e-mail.

> They also run Easiwiter fine for the little WP stuff that I
> do these days, and Pipedream, which has all the spreadsheet
> functions I ever need, plus a whole lot more that I do not
> need.

> Modern hardware might well open larger files in 0.01sec
> rather than 1sec, but is that really significant?

> I can see that if one wants to fiddle around with large
> photographs, then one needs more speed than an RPC. But that
> is not some thing that I am ever likely to want to do.

That's why I bought an Iyonix in 2002.

> An R-Pi is never going to let me do online financial stuff,
> transport or accommodation booking, so it would not help me
> there.

> What am I missing?

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/17/2016 2:48:01 PM
In article <55efec4c2dsee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> Modern hardware might well open larger files in 0.01sec
> rather than 1sec, but is that really significant?

> I can see that if one wants to fiddle around with large
> photographs, then one needs more speed than an RPC. But that
> is not some thing that I am ever likely to want to do.

I sometimes do - but does decent software exist for this and AV handling
under RISC OS anyway?

> An R-Pi is never going to let me do online financial stuff,
> transport or accommodation booking, so it would not help me
> there.

Quite.

> What am I missing?

I also wonder how long one would last in RPC terms. ;-)

-- 
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
Dave
12/17/2016 3:56:26 PM
In article <55efecb5c0charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <55efec4c2dsee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
>    Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
>    wrote:
> > In article <55efe23e52spam.pling@btinternet.com>,
> > spampling <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > > What does puzzle me is why people don't shell out the
> > > minimal cost of a Pi.

> > 1] TBH I have no idea what a fully packaged and working
> > R-Pi would cost. Are a new monitor, keyboard and mouse
> > required, or are the ones I use with my RPC and PC OK?

> An RPC monitor uses an SVG connectiom, the Pi an HDMI
> one, so either a modern monotor or an adaptor.  You'd
> also need a USB keyboard and a mouse.

Right.

So, to use an R-Pi I would need a new keyboard, mouse and
KVM switch. (Actually I have a couple of Poundland USB
mouses bought for use with my Netbook, but I would
definitely not want to use them on a daily basis!) Maybe an
expensive new monitor, as I do not know what a SVG connector
is. Yes, I could serch for it, and maybe it is just what I
call a monitor connector...

The 'minimal cost of a Pi' sounds somewhat bigger...

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/17/2016 5:18:40 PM
In article <55effa811asee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> So, to use an R-Pi I would need a new keyboard, mouse and
> KVM switch. (Actually I have a couple of Poundland USB
> mouses bought for use with my Netbook, but I would
> definitely not want to use them on a daily basis!) Maybe an
> expensive new monitor, as I do not know what a SVG connector
> is. Yes, I could serch for it, and maybe it is just what I
> call a monitor connector...

> The 'minimal cost of a Pi' sounds somewhat bigger...

Raspberry Pi 3 �31.50,
Logitech K360 Wireless Keyboard and Mouse �23.98
USB to VGA connector from �4.99 to �15.00*
VGA/SVG �16.99 *

* If you have a modern television, one that takes a HDMI feed then, the Pi
will run on that. I run mine on a 32" 1920 x 1080 screen but you can run it on
lower resolution screens. 

USB to HDMI leads under �10.00.

Regards Ron.

0
Ron
12/17/2016 7:55:37 PM
In article <55f008dbe7ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>, Ron
Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55effa811asee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
>    Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
>    wrote:
> > So, to use an R-Pi I would need a new keyboard, mouse
> > and KVM switch. (Actually I have a couple of Poundland
> > USB mouses bought for use with my Netbook, but I would
> > definitely not want to use them on a daily basis!)
> > Maybe an expensive new monitor, as I do not know what a
> > SVG connector is. Yes, I could serch for it, and maybe
> > it is just what I call a monitor connector...

> > The 'minimal cost of a Pi' sounds somewhat bigger...

> Raspberry Pi 3 �31.50, Logitech K360 Wireless Keyboard
> and Mouse �23.98 USB to VGA connector from �4.99 to
> �15.00* VGA/SVG �16.99 *

While �82.50 (plus another KVM switch) is not a vast sum, it
is hardly 'minimal' either.

> * If you have a modern television, one that takes a HDMI
> feed then, the Pi will run on that. I run mine on a 32"
> 1920 x 1080 screen but you can run it on lower resolution
> screens. 

> USB to HDMI leads under �10.00.

Connecting a computer to my TV is utterly impracticable.

And no one has yet mentioned any benefit to ME for using an
R-Pi rather than the RPC ie what it can do that I want to do
that that the RPC cannot.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/17/2016 8:58:59 PM
In article <55f00ead19see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <55f008dbe7ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>, Ron
> Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <55effa811asee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
> >    Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
> >    wrote:
> > > So, to use an R-Pi I would need a new keyboard, mouse
> > > and KVM switch. (Actually I have a couple of Poundland
> > > USB mouses bought for use with my Netbook, but I would
> > > definitely not want to use them on a daily basis!)
> > > Maybe an expensive new monitor, as I do not know what a
> > > SVG connector is. Yes, I could serch for it, and maybe
> > > it is just what I call a monitor connector...

> > > The 'minimal cost of a Pi' sounds somewhat bigger...

> > Raspberry Pi 3 �31.50, Logitech K360 Wireless Keyboard
> > and Mouse �23.98 USB to VGA connector from �4.99 to
> > �15.00* VGA/SVG �16.99 *

> While �82.50 (plus another KVM switch) is not a vast sum, it
> is hardly 'minimal' either.

> > * If you have a modern television, one that takes a HDMI
> > feed then, the Pi will run on that. I run mine on a 32"
> > 1920 x 1080 screen but you can run it on lower resolution
> > screens. 

> > USB to HDMI leads under �10.00.

> Connecting a computer to my TV is utterly impracticable.

> And no one has yet mentioned any benefit to ME for using an
> R-Pi rather than the RPC ie what it can do that I want to do
> that that the RPC cannot.

How much longer do you expect your RPC to survive?  It is probably at least
15 years old. (could be 21). You don't, I assume, want to be caught without
a RISC OS machine if the RPC suffers a sudden death.  I've now got 6
working RISC OS machines.

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/17/2016 9:24:36 PM
On 17/12/2016 14:43, Russell Hafter News wrote:
> An R-Pi is never going to let me do online financial stuff,
> transport or accommodation booking, so it would not help me
> there.

Why not? A Raspberry Pi 2 or 3 running Linux and Chromium can handle any 
website, and at a very reasonable speed - and that's compared to x86 
hardware not the dead slug buried in treacle experience of an old Risc PC.

---druck
0
druck
12/17/2016 9:30:07 PM
In article <55f00ead19see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>, Russell Hafter
News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> And no one has yet mentioned any benefit to ME for using an R-Pi rather
> than the RPC ie what it can do that I want to do that that the RPC
> cannot.

Why have a car when you can walk everywhere?

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/17/2016 9:40:46 PM
In article <55f011049ccharles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

> How much longer do you expect your RPC to survive?  It is
> probably at least 15 years old. (could be 21). You don't,
> I assume, want to be caught without a RISC OS machine if
> the RPC suffers a sudden death.  I've now got 6 working
> RISC OS machines.

I have three RPCs, all working, all kept up to date in terms
of software and data.

For the moment, that will keep me going, I reckon.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/17/2016 11:26:20 PM
In article <o34amc$1k7$1@dont-email.me>, druck
<news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
> On 17/12/2016 14:43, Russell Hafter News wrote:
> > An R-Pi is never going to let me do online financial
> > stuff, transport or accommodation booking, so it would
> > not help me there.

> Why not? A Raspberry Pi 2 or 3 running Linux and Chromium
> can handle any website, and at a very reasonable speed -
> and that's compared to x86 hardware not the dead slug
> buried in treacle experience of an old Risc PC.

TBH, I am really not interested in getting to grips with
Linux.

Many years ago when I was vaguely considering it, I read a
posting by Paul Vigay who reckoned that it was only for
seriously experienced users, and not for him.

It may be more user friendly now, I suppose, but I have seen
far too many comments about the serious difficulty in
getting one's head around the various permissions problems
with accessing files and networking.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/17/2016 11:31:07 PM
In article <55f01c9a26see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>, Russell Hafter
News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <o34amc$1k7$1@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
> wrote:
> > On 17/12/2016 14:43, Russell Hafter News wrote:
> > > An R-Pi is never going to let me do online financial stuff,
> > > transport or accommodation booking, so it would not help me there.

> > Why not? A Raspberry Pi 2 or 3 running Linux and Chromium can handle
> > any website, and at a very reasonable speed - and that's compared to
> > x86 hardware not the dead slug buried in treacle experience of an old
> > Risc PC.

> TBH, I am really not interested in getting to grips with Linux.

Piece of cake. Familiar with a GUI? Familiar with Chrome? Firefox?

The fear of the unknown should not prevent us from insisting on
experiencing it.

> Many years ago when I was vaguely considering it, I read a posting by
> Paul Vigay who reckoned that it was only for seriously experienced
> users, and not for him.

It may have been true then, and Paul did hate everything except RISC OS.
Linux has moved on a lot since he was with last with us in 2009. It has a
number of different GUIs available but Ubuntu is one of the most
straightforward and settled and a good introduction.

Try it. It's really easy. You need a PC, even an old one will do.
0. Download some stuff.
1. Burn an ISO image to a DVD or USB stick.
2. Set your PC'c bios to boot from the DVD or USB
3. Put the DVD/stick in the drive and reset.
That's it. Ubuntu Live runs without having to install anything until you
want to. It runs from the DVD/stick. I did exactly this to securely
delete some old hard drives in old business PCs and wipe WindowsXP into
oblivion. Yes, that did involve typing some incantations into a command
window (Wipe was it? I forget) but those spells were easily found using
Firefox on Ubuntu. Sound familiar? The apps are pretty much identical to
what you expect. (Though I do loathe and detest a ribbon menu at the top
of the screen and find myself saying 'mouse goes up, mouse goes down'
just as I used to to wind up AtariST and Amiga users. Where did they go?)

The old machine feels quick again too. Quicker than it ever was. It was
going to go in a skip but is a project waiting for me sometime.

Full instructions:
http://www.howtogeek.com/128347/5-ways-to-try-out-and-install-ubuntu-on-your-computer/

> It may be more user friendly now, I suppose,

After seven+ years? Of course it is.

> but I have seen far too
> many comments about the serious difficulty in getting one's head around
> the various permissions problems with accessing files and networking.

I have not seen these comments of which you write.

Have you ever had to fiddle with file access protocols with RISC OS and
FTPc? Or had a problem? I'll assume 'no'. Then why do you assume that
will be a problem with Linux? There is an general issue (with networking
not Linux per se) in that you may be stopped from editing a file created
by another machine but it is easily overcome by making a copy of the file
with the second machine before editing it. Do you think changing a few
file permission settings is something you think won't be easily solved by
a web search? I have that 'problem' with some folders on my NAS but it is
deliberately set-up that way so I can't accidentally delete the PC's
files from RISC OS and vice-versa. 

No. I must have a Ford. I have a Ford, have always had a Ford and all
those other makes of car are probably totally different with all their
knobs, switches and pedals in different places and it will explode if I
do something wrong. I read somewhere that all Vauhalls have a habit of
bursting into flames! Yeah, okay, that last bit is true.  ;-)

T

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/18/2016 12:22:40 AM
In article <55f02152c2tim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]

> Linux has moved on a lot since he was with last with us in 2009. It has a
> number of different GUIs available but Ubuntu is one of the most
> straightforward and settled and a good introduction.

Indeedy it has Tim.

I have a Linux Ubuntu install on a big memory stick (Use the PCs boot menu
to run it) and yes on the surface it is quite MS windowsy to use, but I
have never managed to get to grips with the Sh**ty update apps methodology.

Not just a MS-Win case of downloading the .exe and doing the update...

Repositories, if you can find the right one, then loads of associated bits
to make the thing work, I've even forgotten what they are called... (I
have a medical excuse for that ATM  ;-))

I'm finding it a better bet to use Win 10 on a USB 3 SSD external HD, and
despite my initial doubts, a damn site easier to whip W10 into how I want
it than any Linux install I've ever had.

Sorry, I still can't think of what those associated bits are called, maybe
packages?

Dave

-- 

Dave Triffid
0
Dave
12/18/2016 9:10:04 AM
In article <55f05198d4dave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
<dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> Sorry, I still can't think of what those associated bits are called,
> maybe packages?

ITYM Dependencies.

I have to admit to leaving my Ubuntu install to look after itself and
like RISC OS and Windows, I  will probably go hunting for updates when
something doesn't work.

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/18/2016 10:59:55 AM
In article <55f05baa0dtim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f05198d4dave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > Sorry, I still can't think of what those associated bits are called,
> > maybe packages?

> ITYM Dependencies.

> I have to admit to leaving my Ubuntu install to look after itself and
> like RISC OS and Windows, I  will probably go hunting for updates when
> something doesn't work.

Ah yes, Dependencies, that the stuff...  :-(

Thanks
Dave

PS: There's something in this threads header that Pluto doesn't like.


-- 

Dave Triffid
0
Dave
12/18/2016 12:30:50 PM
In article <55f063f71edave@triffid.co.uk>,
   Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f05baa0dtim@invalid.org.uk>,
>    Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> > In article <55f05198d4dave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> > <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> > [Snip]

> > > Sorry, I still can't think of what those associated bits are called,
> > > maybe packages?

> > ITYM Dependencies.

> > I have to admit to leaving my Ubuntu install to look after itself and
> > like RISC OS and Windows, I  will probably go hunting for updates when
> > something doesn't work.

> Ah yes, Dependencies, that the stuff...  :-(

> Thanks
> Dave

> PS: There's something in this threads header that Pluto doesn't like.

Yes, it says certain characters shouldn't be used in headers - but it
doesn't seem to affect posting

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/18/2016 12:47:01 PM
In article <55f063f71edave@triffid.co.uk>,
   Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> PS: There's something in this threads header that Pluto doesn't like.

The first message in the thread from Russell Hafter read "I need to test
something with Pluto, a news posting with the subject line in German (+ a
few other top bit set chars)." - hence the subject.

In the great CSA tradition this has become a discussion on the merits of
Linux and has introduced me to some new good information en route.

"We are going to a dance..."

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________

Brian Jordan
Virtual RPC-AdjustSA on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
RISC OS 6.20
_____________________________________________________________________


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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0
Brian
12/18/2016 1:17:16 PM
In article <55f0683a9cbrian.jordan9@btinternet.com>,
   Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <55f063f71edave@triffid.co.uk>,
>    Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > PS: There's something in this threads header that Pluto doesn't like.

> The first message in the thread from Russell Hafter read "I need to test
> something with Pluto, a news posting with the subject line in German (+ a
> few other top bit set chars)." - hence the subject.

> In the great CSA tradition this has become a discussion on the merits of
> Linux and has introduced me to some new good information en route.

> "We are going to a dance..."

I'll send you 3/4d

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/18/2016 1:22:04 PM
In article <55f068ade8charles@candehope.me.uk>,
   charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f0683a9cbrian.jordan9@btinternet.com>,
>    Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > In article <55f063f71edave@triffid.co.uk>,
> >    Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> > [Snip]

> > > PS: There's something in this threads header that Pluto doesn't
> > > like.

> > The first message in the thread from Russell Hafter read "I need to
> > test something with Pluto, a news posting with the subject line in
> > German (+ a few other top bit set chars)." - hence the subject.

> > In the great CSA tradition this has become a discussion on the merits
> > of Linux and has introduced me to some new good information en route.

> > "We are going to a dance..."

> I'll send you 3/4d

Three farthings?! This would work better if you were to send me 3s 4d.

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________

Brian Jordan
Virtual RPC-AdjustSA on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
RISC OS 6.20
_____________________________________________________________________


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

0
Brian
12/18/2016 1:28:42 PM
In article <55f0694942brian.jordan9@btinternet.com>,
   Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <55f068ade8charles@candehope.me.uk>,
>    charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > In article <55f0683a9cbrian.jordan9@btinternet.com>,
> >    Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > > In article <55f063f71edave@triffid.co.uk>,
> > >    Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> > > [Snip]

> > > > PS: There's something in this threads header that Pluto doesn't
> > > > like.

> > > The first message in the thread from Russell Hafter read "I need to
> > > test something with Pluto, a news posting with the subject line in
> > > German (+ a few other top bit set chars)." - hence the subject.

> > > In the great CSA tradition this has become a discussion on the merits
> > > of Linux and has introduced me to some new good information en route.

> > > "We are going to a dance..."

> > I'll send you 3/4d

> Three farthings?! This would work better if you were to send me 3s 4d.

but 3/4d was the shorthand way of writing 3s 4p.

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/18/2016 2:37:30 PM
In article <55f01c9a26see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:

[Snip]

> It may be more user friendly now, I suppose, but I have seen
> far too many comments about the serious difficulty in
> getting one's head around the various permissions problems
> with accessing files and networking.

The official Linux version (Raspbian) for the Raspberry Pi is designed for
school children, so I think that you should be able to use that ;-).

Regards Ron.

0
Ron
12/18/2016 3:46:43 PM
In message <55f05198d4dave@triffid.co.uk>
          Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

>I have a Linux Ubuntu install on a big memory stick (Use the PCs boot menu
>to run it) and yes on the surface it is quite MS windowsy to use, but I
>have never managed to get to grips with the Sh**ty update apps methodology.

My wife and I each have an Ubuntu installation (hers on a notebook,
mine on a desktop), both currently at 16.04 64 bit.  The entire
"update" methodology consists of a click on the "Software Updater"
icon on the desktop; some updates require the Ubuntu password (the
same one that got us to the desktop after boot-up); some require
permission to reboot afterwards, although reboot can be deferred
if you wish.

So I don't recognise at all the difficulty you're referring to.  We
have seen nothing like it in several years of use, and many updates.
I wonder if your difficulties are a consequence of trying to update
a non-installed OS?

My wife swore she would never use anything but Windows.  She didn't
complain when I presented her with the Ubuntu notebook.  I think
she probably still thought she was running Windows.

Dave
0
Dave
12/18/2016 5:26:16 PM
In article <1e0a7ff055.DaveMeUK@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton
<dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> My wife swore she would never use anything but Windows.  She didn't
> complain when I presented her with the Ubuntu notebook.  I think she
> probably still thought she was running Windows.

Many paradigms are the same as Windows - right-click menus to name but
one - to help people feel comfortable and unthreatened. Those
windows-alike GUIs can, in our minds, then become one homogenous gloop,
which is a good way to attract converts who care nothing about
architecture but just want something which works the way they're used to.
The indicators, gearstick and pedals should be arranged in a near
identical fashion to gain acceptance. To them (and although miles
better!!)  RISC OS has one gear, has switched the pedals and makes you
give hand-signals. 

The screen-top/app-top menus though. They shout "Welcome to 1985 and GEM"
except Ubuntu is not limited to 640x200 in 8 'colors' and it does a good
job of backing up my camera when I plug it in and you can browse on it.

It seems to be stable and a good work-horse. Now, how do I install
Apache...?...

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/18/2016 6:54:27 PM
In message <55efe23e52spam.pling@btinternet.com>
          spampling <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Or am I missing the elephant in the room when I consider why people
> aren't using RISC OS on modern hardware?

I have two RPIs, but they doesn't work properly here. Some times
troubles with the automatic repeat of pressed keys and mouse keys. I
press a key but aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa appears and so on. Also,
OmniClient is very slow; it is much faster on the RiscPC (in usage with
the same NAS).

What I miss on the Risc PC is only the USB the RPI comes with. So I use
the RPIs most by ShareFS from my RiscPC. For "large" media (web / PDFs
with large images / DVD) you will better go out and use "proper"
software on a fast PC altough you can do it a bit on RISC OS, too.

A.

-- 
http://home.chiemgau-net.de/ausserstorfer/
Manchmal sind es die Details, auf die es ankommt.
0
Alexander
12/18/2016 10:58:48 PM
In article <55efe23e52spam.pling@btinternet.com>,
   spampling <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:
[Snippy]
> Or am I missing the elephant in the room when I consider why people
> aren't using RISC OS on modern hardware?

I do understand what you mean Steve.  ;-)

But as an aside question...

I'm using Virtual RPC-DL on RISC OS 6.20 running on a not very old Win 10
PC, isn't that Modern Hardware also?

Also running RPCEmu 0.8.15 RISC OS 5.23 on a not very old PC running the
Win 7 I put on it instead of the Win 10 they wanted to supply, isn't that
Modern Hardware also?

Horses for courses jobby methinks.

;-)

Dave

-- 

Dave Triffid
0
Dave
12/19/2016 6:59:58 AM
In article <55eff2fa18dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > An R-Pi is never going to let me do online financial stuff,
> > transport or accommodation booking, so it would not help me
> > there.

> Quite.

1. You can switch boot devices and run Linux
2. I suspect the people commenting have no knowledge of the port of Otter
which extends browsing capability somewhat

-- 

Steve Pampling
0
spampling
12/19/2016 8:51:55 AM
In article <55f0c98858dave@triffid.co.uk>,
   Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm using Virtual RPC-DL on RISC OS 6.20 running on a not very old Win 10
> PC, isn't that Modern Hardware also?

Emulation of old, running an old OS

-- 

Steve Pampling
0
spampling
12/19/2016 8:53:16 AM
In article <55eff2fa18dave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55efec4c2dsee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>, Russell Hafter
>    News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:

> > I can see that if one wants to fiddle around with large photographs,
> > then one needs more speed than an RPC. But that is not some thing that
> > I am ever likely to want to do.

> I sometimes do - but does decent software exist for this and AV handling
> under RISC OS anyway?

Well ffmpeg and sox are available for RO. Although we do lack serious
GUI-fronted programs for AV.

That said, I've been scanning and processing hundreds of large images in
recent months. And find that doing it on my ARMX6 works well. Even when I'm
doing something like 'stitching together' something like a 7500 x 5500
pixel image of a circuit diagram from a set of A4 scans of parts of a large
paper original. Using !DPScan to get the scans and !Composition to fit them
together.

I suspect I'd have struggled with this on a RiscPC. Now the main problem is
that I need a bigger monitor - which my ARX6 would drive should I finally
get it. So the limit is simply that I've not got a round tuit. (Or more
specifically, that Andrew Rawnsley hasn't yet found a suitable combination
of a large screen and HDMI switch that I can use.)

I can also process large 'high resolution' audio files. The snag being that
I have to use a USB Audio system to play them on my ARMX6 in full
resolution because the OS's main audio system remains 16bit.

Jim

-- 
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics  http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

0
Jim
12/19/2016 10:01:16 AM
In article <55f0d3c863spam.pling@btinternet.com>,
   spampling <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <55eff2fa18dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
>    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > An R-Pi is never going to let me do online financial stuff,
> > > transport or accommodation booking, so it would not help me
> > > there.

> > Quite.

> 1. You can switch boot devices and run Linux

You want me to learn a third OS  - when I'm happy with the two I've got? 

> 2. I suspect the people commenting have no knowledge of the port of Otter
> which extends browsing capability somewhat

Somewhat? I've not noticed a lack of browser capability using Win7. Can't
really see any point in having a halfway house between RISC OS browsers
and a PC one.

-- 
*A hangover is the wrath of grapes.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
Dave
12/19/2016 10:41:01 AM
In article <55f0d3e811spam.pling@btinternet.com>,
   spampling <spam.pling@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <55f0c98858dave@triffid.co.uk>,
>    Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> > I'm using Virtual RPC-DL on RISC OS 6.20 running on a not very old Win
> > 10 PC, isn't that Modern Hardware also?

> Emulation of old, running an old OS

No, regardless of what hardware you are running it on, RISC OS even 5.23
is basically an old/ancient OS running on newer Ri Pi hardware.

Dave

-- 

Dave Triffid
0
Dave
12/19/2016 10:52:51 AM
In message <55f00ead19see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
          Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> 
wrote:

> In article <55f008dbe7ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>, Ron
> Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <55effa811asee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
>>    Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
>>    wrote:
>>> So, to use an R-Pi I would need a new keyboard, mouse
>>> and KVM switch. (Actually I have a couple of Poundland
>>> USB mouses bought for use with my Netbook, but I would
>>> definitely not want to use them on a daily basis!)
>>> Maybe an expensive new monitor, as I do not know what a
>>> SVG connector is. Yes, I could serch for it, and maybe
>>> it is just what I call a monitor connector...

>>> The 'minimal cost of a Pi' sounds somewhat bigger...

>> Raspberry Pi 3 �31.50, Logitech K360 Wireless Keyboard
>> and Mouse �23.98 USB to VGA connector from �4.99 to
>> �15.00* VGA/SVG �16.99 *

> While �82.50 (plus another KVM switch) is not a vast sum, it
> is hardly 'minimal' either.

That can be cut further with a PS2 to USB converter to make use of the 
same keyboard and mouse so at �1.15 to �4.99 that would mean circa �60

>> * If you have a modern television, one that takes a HDMI
>> feed then, the Pi will run on that. I run mine on a 32"
>> 1920 x 1080 screen but you can run it on lower resolution
>> screens.

>> USB to HDMI leads under �10.00.

> Connecting a computer to my TV is utterly impracticable.

> And no one has yet mentioned any benefit to ME for using an
> R-Pi rather than the RPC ie what it can do that I want to do
> that that the RPC cannot.

Cheaper to run and better on the environment.

Certain tasks take less time as the system is quicker and so more 
productive.

!Aemulor or ARCEmu sort out legacy stuff.

So for c. 16p or c. 0.19 Euros per day for a year.

-- 
Experience the future using ARM Technology - BeagleBoard -xM, 
PandaBoard,Raspberry Pi, iMX6/ARMX6, IGEPv5 & Titanium powered by RISC 
OS 5.23.
0
Doug
12/19/2016 2:23:42 PM
In article <55f0ddc535dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> > 1. You can switch boot devices and run Linux

> You want me to learn a third OS  - when I'm happy with the two I've got? 

Raspbian the Linux OS of choice on the Raspberry Pi is designed for school
children so very easy to use.

[Snip]

Regards Ron.

0
Ron
12/19/2016 4:53:35 PM
In article
<1c29f2f055.dougjwebb@doug.j.webb.btinternet.com>,
   Doug Webb <doug.j.webb@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In message <55f00ead19see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
>           Russell Hafter News
> <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:

> > In article <55f008dbe7ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>, Ron
> > Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> >> In article <55effa811asee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
> >>    Russell Hafter News
> >>    <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:

> >>> So, to use an R-Pi I would need a new keyboard, mouse
> >>> and KVM switch. (Actually I have a couple of
> >>> Poundland USB mouses bought for use with my Netbook,
> >>> but I would definitely not want to use them on a
> >>> daily basis!) Maybe an expensive new monitor, as I do
> >>> not know what a SVG connector is. Yes, I could serch
> >>> for it, and maybe it is just what I call a monitor
> >>> connector...

> >>> The 'minimal cost of a Pi' sounds somewhat bigger...

> >> Raspberry Pi 3 �31.50, Logitech K360 Wireless Keyboard
> >> and Mouse �23.98 USB to VGA connector from �4.99 to
> >> �15.00* VGA/SVG �16.99 *

> > While �82.50 (plus another KVM switch) is not a vast
> > sum, it is hardly 'minimal' either.

> That can be cut further with a PS2 to USB converter to
> make use of the same keyboard and mouse so at �1.15 to
> �4.99 that would mean circa �60

Out of curiosity, I have just done a search to see what I
would actually get for that �31.50 Raspberry Pi 3.

It seems to include neither a PSU nor a case. Does it
include the OS? I am reminded of just how small the thing
is, which ironically means that it would take up more space
on my desk - my rather large CRT monitor currently sits on
top of the RPC, though its footprint is rather larger than
the RPC's. It cannot sit on top of the PC, because that has
ventilation in the top cover.

The cost of a complete system seems to be around �130
upwards. Were I to be buying something, it would not be
something in semi-kit form, but something I could plug into
the mains at one end, the network at the other and just
work.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/19/2016 10:02:59 PM
On 19 Dec, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
    <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>:

> Does it include the OS?

The OS (and any updates) is a free download from ROOL.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
0
Steve
12/19/2016 10:30:29 PM
In message <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
          Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> 
wrote:


[snip]

> 

> It seems to include neither a PSU nor a case. Does it
> include the OS? I am reminded of just how small the thing
> is, which ironically means that it would take up more space
> on my desk - my rather large CRT monitor currently sits on
> top of the RPC, though its footprint is rather larger than
> the RPC's. It cannot sit on top of the PC, because that has
> ventilation in the top cover.

> The cost of a complete system seems to be around �130
> upwards. Were I to be buying something, it would not be
> something in semi-kit form, but something I could plug into
> the mains at one end, the network at the other and just
> work.

I don't know where you get the �130 from as I said even if you wish to 
add in a case c. �5, 16/32GB card c. �9 and a PSU c. �2.50 ( I know as 
I just got one) then it is still some �50 - �60 below that.

As to kit form then instead of a roll your own OS you could pay a bit 
more for a ready made RISC OS card but still it gets no where near 
your figures.

As to siting then just velcrose it to the back of the monitor it 
really is that small and is what I did for my son's Pi.

Even if we went with your �130 then this is less than 35p per day or 
0.42 Euros and you would as I said before most likely save that in 
power if you use the machine for a few hours each day.

-- 
Experience the future using ARM Technology - BeagleBoard -xM, 
PandaBoard,Raspberry Pi, iMX6/ARMX6, IGEPv5 & Titanium powered by RISC 
OS 5.23.
0
Doug
12/19/2016 10:51:04 PM
On 19/12/2016 22:02, Russell Hafter News wrote:
> I am reminded of just how small the thing
> is, which ironically means that it would take up more space
> on my desk - my rather large CRT monitor currently sits on
> top of the RPC, though its footprint is rather larger than
> the RPC's. It cannot sit on top of the PC, because that has
> ventilation in the top cover.

God what a lot of crap, you really are determined to be completely=20
negative. You can stick the Pi behind the monitor taking up no space at=20
all. Every TV in my house has a Pi hidden behind it amongst the other=20
cables.

> The cost of a complete system seems to be around =A3130
> upwards. Were I to be buying something, it would not be
> something in semi-kit form, but something I could plug into
> the mains at one end, the network at the other and just
> work.

The Raspberry Pi is no different than any other system - mains cable,=20
monitor lead, keyboard & mouse and ethernet cable.

Sometimes I think the only reason there are still any RISC OS users is=20
the utter pig headedness of those remaining.

---druck


0
druck
12/19/2016 11:04:23 PM
In article <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>, Russell Hafter
News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> The cost of a complete system seems to be around �130 upwards. Were I
> to be buying something, it would not be something in semi-kit form, but
> something I could plug into the mains at one end, the network at the
> other and just work.

I know this won't sway you because you seem determined to assume there
are difficulties which don't exist.

But...

1. Having a separate PSU is not even an extra item. It replaces the
kettle lead you would normally connect to a desktop computer's internal
PSU. Each of them is just a thing with a plug at each end.  (Tip: get one
with a switch in the lead and it gives you a convenient reset - off|on)

2. A simple case (if you want one, it's not essential) is under a tenner.
Usually a few bits of perspex and a few nuts and bolts. You could ask a
child to assemble it. You could even get a case which bolts to the VESA
mount on the back of your telly or monitor. The computer on the monitor,
rather than the vice-versa of old, using up a tiny bit of that space on a
desk that used to be occupied by the back 80% of a CRT.

3. With the 'RISC OS Pi' microSD from ROOL (or Noobs for Linux from
Raspberry Pi Foundation) it should "plug into the mains at one end, the
network at the other and just work" assuming you have mouse, keyboard and
screen attached too, though it will run without them, I think   ;-)

4. The cheapest option is to shop around and source the components
yourself but I am sure 'he who has everything' or someone else would
happily provide a turnkey system assembled into a case and ready to go if
you ask nicely. Oh, look, 
http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/prices/categories/raspberrypi.shtml

and so on...

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/19/2016 11:32:53 PM
On 19/12/16 22:30, Steve Fryatt wrote:
> On 19 Dec, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
>     <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>:

>> Does it include the OS?

> The OS (and any updates) is a free download from ROOL.

Russell will, of course, then need an SD card to put the OS on, and a 
computer capable of putting that OS on the SD card. ICBW, but I'm not 
sure if he's said in this thread (or indeed any other) that he has such 
a machine.

Russell:

Based on what I believe you have, I'd be inclined to suggest a slightly 
higher initial outlay in order to both simplify setting it up, as well 
as to provide other benefits.

The hardware (and OS) shopping list would be:

* The Raspbery Pi - £32ish
* A suitable power supply unit - £10 or so
* A *prepared* SD card from ROOL - £10 iirc
* A new USB keyboard and mouse - £10 (no need to pay through the nose)
* A new monitor - I should think a 21" 1920x1080 can be had for ~£80
* Probably a HDMI lead as well - £10?

I've probably estimated a little higher than I needed to for some of 
those prices, but that lot comes to £152.

However, doing it that way also makes it closer to "something I could 
just plug into the mains at one end, the network at the other and just 
work" - with that shopping list, there's less messing about, and it's 
more like a normal computer: You plug in the keyboard, mouse, display, 
network, insert the boot disc into the drive (the SD card), plug in and go.

One benefit is obviously the increase in speed over a RiscPC, but 
another (noting you said you currently have a CRT sitting atop the 
RiscPC) is that *replacing* that set up completely would reduce the 
space taken by quite a margin.

A problem will be making sure all the software you use and need works on 
the Pi - so there may be some updating necessary, and whether that can 
be done for free or with some outlay depends what that software is. (But 
note the existence of the Nut Pi card - it's £42 but contains a good 
selection of software).

A case might also be desirable. There are cheap ones for less than a 
tenner, but there is also the option of a RiscPiC case (ideal if you 
miss miss having a RiscPC on your desk) - though these are a little 
pricier. And likely to be more so if/when I get another lot made, thanks 
to the result of a recent referendum.

TBH, I think your best bet would be to actually come to a show (or a 
user group meeting) and see what they're like for yourself, in use, 
running RISC OS and *then* think about whether it's what you want to do.

-- 
Vince M Hudd
Soft Rock Software
0
Vince
12/19/2016 11:36:13 PM
In article <5d1995f155.Matthew@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Well it crawls!  It does function on the Risc PC a lot better than when
> we first released the software, as it is not limited to the 26MB Wimp
> slot on RISC OS 4 or 6 any more.  If you have a Risc PC with 64MB or
> more of RAM then RiscOSM will work, and not run out of memory annoyingly
> early.  But it will be awfully slow for urban areas.

Personally, I run it on an ARMX6 and it is fine.

This Kinetic claims 94M but I don't think I've tried it on here.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/
0
Stuart
12/20/2016 1:01:01 AM
In article <1c29f2f055.dougjwebb@doug.j.webb.btinternet.com>,
   Doug Webb <doug.j.webb@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > And no one has yet mentioned any benefit to ME for using an
> > R-Pi rather than the RPC ie what it can do that I want to do
> > that that the RPC cannot.

> Cheaper to run and better on the environment.

> Certain tasks take less time as the system is quicker and so more 
> productive.

I don't think things like RiscOSM will even run on a Risc PC

http://www.sinenomine.co.uk/software/riscosm/overview.html

-- 
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/
0
Stuart
12/20/2016 1:01:01 AM
In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>,
   druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2016 22:02, Russell Hafter News wrote:
> > I am reminded of just how small the thing
> > is, which ironically means that it would take up more space
> > on my desk - my rather large CRT monitor currently sits on
> > top of the RPC, though its footprint is rather larger than
> > the RPC's. It cannot sit on top of the PC, because that has
> > ventilation in the top cover.

> God what a lot of crap, you really are determined to be completely 
> negative. You can stick the Pi behind the monitor taking up no space at 
> all. Every TV in my house has a Pi hidden behind it amongst the other 
> cables.

> > The cost of a complete system seems to be around �130
> > upwards. Were I to be buying something, it would not be
> > something in semi-kit form, but something I could plug into
> > the mains at one end, the network at the other and just
> > work.

> The Raspberry Pi is no different than any other system - mains cable, 
> monitor lead, keyboard & mouse and ethernet cable.

> Sometimes I think the only reason there are still any RISC OS users is 
> the utter pig headedness of those remaining.

[Snip]

Or maybe we like using some of the programs.

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/20/2016 9:18:16 AM
In article <eumdnUovTP5z88XFnZ2dnUU78W_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
   Vince M Hudd <atdotcodotuk@dotcodotukat.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/16 22:30, Steve Fryatt wrote:
> > On 19 Dec, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
> >     <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>:

> >> Does it include the OS?

> > The OS (and any updates) is a free download from ROOL.

[ ... ]

> One benefit is obviously the increase in speed over a RiscPC,
> but another (noting you said you currently have a CRT sitting
> atop the RiscPC) is that *replacing* that set up completely
> would reduce the space taken by quite a margin.

[ ... ]

Possibly not so likely because I'm sure (like me) you will want
to fetch numerous files from the RiscPC onto the Pi, using
ShareFS.  But as others have said space really is not a problem. 
My complete Pi system (Pi, hub, wireless adapter, keyboard, hard
disc) fits on a piece of MDF board 50 x 25cm).

Brian.

0
Brian
12/20/2016 10:17:52 AM
On 20/12/16 10:17, Brian Carroll wrote:
> In article <eumdnUovTP5z88XFnZ2dnUU78W_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>    Vince M Hudd <atdotcodotuk@dotcodotukat.co.uk> wrote:

[replacing a RiscPC + CRT monitor with a Pi + flat panel means a space 
saving]

> Possibly not so likely because I'm sure (like me) you will want
> to fetch numerous files from the RiscPC onto the Pi, using
> ShareFS.  But as others have said space really is not a problem.
> My complete Pi system (Pi, hub, wireless adapter, keyboard, hard
> disc) fits on a piece of MDF board 50 x 25cm).

Unless you're doing that piecemeal, you should only need to do it once 
and the RiscPC can then be retired - so the space problem only needs to 
be an issue temporarily.

How long that will take, of course, depends on how much has to be moved, 
how good/fast/reliable ShareFS is, and so on.
-- 
Vince M Hudd
Soft Rock Software
0
Vince
12/20/2016 10:50:08 AM
In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>,
   druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> The Raspberry Pi is no different than any other system - mains cable, 
> monitor lead, keyboard & mouse and ethernet cable.

> Sometimes I think the only reason there are still any RISC OS users is 
> the utter pig headedness of those remaining.

To be fair, I think Russell made a vary good point.  Lots of RiscOS users
enjoy the hoobiest side of the business but for many others, including
myself, it has been the OS that we have used for nearly 30 years.  For the
first 10 years or so a certain amount of jiggery-pokery was needed to get
the most out of the system but post RO3.5 things became pretty mature and
reliable - the machine could be used for lots of useful work. The one I'm
sitting at still is used as such some 21 years after its birth!

I fear the day when it dies, although I do have a spare, and realise that
another solution will be needed.  I have a Windows machine sitting next to
it but although that is very capable it is very much not so pleasant to use
and I'd really miss !Pluto.

So I think what Russell was hoping for was a complete solution from
somebody.  A box with connectors that could be plugged into and away we go.
Something like that would be what I'd favour as well.  A few days away from
my 70th birthday I am still quite happy to play about with kit but with the
chariot wheels thundering ever louder I can think of many other things I'd
like to spend my time doing.  When I'm in the care-home I'll take up
jigsaws and assembling Rasperry Pi bits and pieces.

Alan

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.
0
Alan
12/20/2016 11:05:29 AM
In article <55f0ffe146ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>,
   Ron Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f0ddc535dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
>    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > > 1. You can switch boot devices and run Linux

> > You want me to learn a third OS  - when I'm happy with the two I've
> > got? 

> Raspbian the Linux OS of choice on the Raspberry Pi is designed for
> school children so very easy to use.

And I'd remind you of our own OS origins. Doesn't make it foolproof,
though. ;-)

-- 
*Consciousness:  That annoying time between naps.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
Dave
12/20/2016 11:13:39 AM
In article <55f163d961alancalder.8@btinternet.com>, Alan Calder BT
<alancalder.8@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > The Raspberry Pi is no different than any other system - mains cable,
> > monitor lead, keyboard & mouse and ethernet cable.

> > Sometimes I think the only reason there are still any RISC OS users is
> > the utter pig headedness of those remaining.

> To be fair, I think Russell made a vary good point.  Lots of RiscOS users
> enjoy the hoobiest side of the business but for many others, including
> myself, it has been the OS that we have used for nearly 30 years.  For
> the first 10 years or so a certain amount of jiggery-pokery was needed to
> get the most out of the system but post RO3.5 things became pretty mature
> and reliable - the machine could be used for lots of useful work. The one
> I'm sitting at still is used as such some 21 years after its birth!

> I fear the day when it dies, although I do have a spare, and realise that
> another solution will be needed.  I have a Windows machine sitting next
> to it but although that is very capable it is very much not so pleasant
> to use and I'd really miss !Pluto.

> So I think what Russell was hoping for was a complete solution from
> somebody.  A box with connectors that could be plugged into and away we
> go. Something like that would be what I'd favour as well.  A few days
> away from my 70th birthday I am still quite happy to play about with kit
> but with the chariot wheels thundering ever louder I can think of many
> other things I'd like to spend my time doing.  When I'm in the care-home
> I'll take up jigsaws and assembling Rasperry Pi bits and pieces.

CJE Micros have just that.  It's called the RaspberryRo.

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/20/2016 12:02:26 PM
In article <55f163d961alancalder.8@btinternet.com>,
   Alan Calder BT <alancalder.8@btinternet.com> wrote:
[Snippy]

> I fear the day when it dies, although I do have a spare, and realise
> that another solution will be needed.  I have a Windows machine sitting
> next to it but although that is very capable it is very much not so
> pleasant to use and I'd really miss !Pluto.

Had the same boat here Alan.
Ancient SARPC... When it started getting a little uppity a couple of years
ago I had the choice of another RISC OS only computer, or... Considering
much of the work I do now needs a big boys computer, in my case MS-Windows.

I therefore moved all of my RISC OS stuff to the Win PC and VRPC-DL, so I
now have a somewhat faster RISC OS, Pluto, Newshound etc, still at my
fingertips.

Drop out of VRPC (Alt+Return) and I'm in MS-Windows ready to go on that
side... Firefox browser, PSP for graphics, etc, etc.

No brainer AFAICS.

Dave

The other alt would be RPCEmu and various flavours of RISC OS like 4.39,
6.20, 5.22/3

I also have a RPCEmu 0.8.15 install on another PC with 5.23 running on it
okay.

D.

-- 

Dave Triffid
0
Dave
12/20/2016 1:36:19 PM
In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>,
   druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:

> God what a lot of crap, you really are determined to be
> completely negative. You can stick the Pi behind the
> monitor taking up no space at all. Every TV in my house
> has a Pi hidden behind it amongst the other cables.

Wow, just what I always needed - a computer stuck behind my
TV.

Not.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/20/2016 1:55:34 PM
In article <55f124709dtim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
<tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
> Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
> wrote:
> > The cost of a complete system seems to be around �130
> > upwards. Were I to be buying something, it would not be
> > something in semi-kit form, but something I could plug
> > into the mains at one end, the network at the other and
> > just work.

> I know this won't sway you because you seem determined to
> assume there are difficulties which don't exist.

Actually Tim, you are incorrect.

I have thought about getting an R-Pi for years, but never
actually could find a reason to do so.

> But...

> 1. Having a separate PSU is not even an extra item.

I am well aware of that.

The point I was hoping to make is that the PSU was another
of the things that was omitted from your quoted �31.50, just
like they keboard, mouse, memory card writer or card
includong OS etc.

One may have suitable bits and pieces lying around the
house, one may not. I do have USB mouses, but no USB
keyboard. I may have a suitable PSU lying around - for
example, I seem to have collected four Nokia ACP-7X over the
years, plus many others, including some for laptops. I do
not have any of the adaptors that some have helpfully
suggested.

It is, quite simply, that at present, I have no need for
such a thing, and I have never had much interest in
understanding the hardware. I was interested in programming,
albeit at a pretty BASIC level, but have not done any of
that for several years now.

Current interest is in using the thing to do what I want,
not what others think that I should want. You asked why
people still use an RPC when we could be using an R-Pi - you
have **my** reasons. They are valid to me.

Actually, Doug Webb's comments about an R-Pi being cheaper
to run cut a lot more ice than the fact that the R-Pi is
faster and more modern.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/20/2016 1:55:49 PM
In article <55f15f7d3abric-nospam@argonet.co.uk>, Brian
Carroll <bric-nospam@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
>    <eumdnUovTP5z88XFnZ2dnUU78W_NnZ2d@giganews.com>, Vince
>    M Hudd <atdotcodotuk@dotcodotukat.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 19/12/16 22:30, Steve Fryatt wrote:
> > > On 19 Dec, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
> > >     <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>:

> > >> Does it include the OS?

> > > The OS (and any updates) is a free download from ROOL.

> [ ... ]

> > One benefit is obviously the increase in speed over a
> > RiscPC, but another (noting you said you currently have
> > a CRT sitting atop the RiscPC) is that *replacing* that
> > set up completely would reduce the space taken by quite
> > a margin.

> [ ... ]

> Possibly not so likely because I'm sure (like me) you
> will want to fetch numerous files from the RiscPC onto
> the Pi, using ShareFS.  But as others have said space
> really is not a problem. My complete Pi system (Pi, hub,
> wireless adapter, keyboard, hard disc) fits on a piece of
> MDF board 50 x 25cm).

Actually, on due reflection, this would not be a problem, as
only one of the RPCs sits in front of me. The two others are
elsewhere in the house, so I could copy stuff from one of
the others.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/20/2016 1:59:22 PM
In article <55f171a87ddave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
<dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> I therefore moved all of my RISC OS stuff to the Win PC
> and VRPC-DL, so I now have a somewhat faster RISC OS,
> Pluto, Newshound etc, still at my fingertips.

I backup my data to an RPCemu install on my windows box, and
until three years ago I used it to refer to my e-mails in
Pluto when away from home.

I never tried to get POPStar to access the net, though - the
RPCemu helpfile was far too offputting! I use a windows
e-mail program for checking e-mail when away - it is
simpler, even though each time I do I am reminded of how
much better designed Pluto is.

Many years ago I bought Virtual A5000 for my first windows
laptop, but I could never see it as an alternative to a real
RISC OS machine. Same with RPCemu.

-- 
Russell
Russell Hafter
E-mail to russell at russellhafter dot me dot uk
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
0
Russell
12/20/2016 2:10:05 PM
In article <55f1649855dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > Raspbian the Linux OS of choice on the Raspberry Pi is designed for
> > school children so very easy to use.

> And I'd remind you of our own OS origins. Doesn't make it foolproof,
> though. ;-)

You are, I think, being deliberately obtuse. You were complaining about having
to learn a third OS.

However if you think that using a OS designed for children is not for you then
I concur.

Regards Ron.

0
Ron
12/20/2016 4:54:31 PM
In article <55f183cd57ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>,
   Ron Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f1649855dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
>    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Raspbian the Linux OS of choice on the Raspberry Pi is designed for
> > > school children so very easy to use.

> > And I'd remind you of our own OS origins. Doesn't make it foolproof,
> > though. ;-)

> You are, I think, being deliberately obtuse. You were complaining about
> having to learn a third OS.

What is it about you Linux zealots? Why must you try and convert everyone
to your faith?

> However if you think that using a OS designed for children is not for
> you then I concur.

And you even missed the point of my post. 

>

-- 
*For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
Dave
12/20/2016 5:08:50 PM
In article <55f1851ce5dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > You are, I think, being deliberately obtuse. You were complaining about
> > having to learn a third OS.

> What is it about you Linux zealots? Why must you try and convert everyone
> to your faith?

You have read my email headers, haven't you? From genuine RISC OS hardware as
well.

> > However if you think that using a OS designed for children is not for
> > you then I concur.

> And you even missed the point of my post.

I think not and have come to the realisation that you are a troll.

Kill filing you will also mean that I won't have to read your similar postings
on other newsgroups as well :-)).

Bye Ron.

0
Ron
12/20/2016 6:45:50 PM
In article <55f18dfe5aron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>, Ron Briscoe
<ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f1851ce5dave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
>    <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > You are, I think, being deliberately obtuse. You were complaining
> > > about having to learn a third OS.

> > What is it about you Linux zealots? Why must you try and convert
> > everyone to your faith?

> You have read my email headers, haven't you? From genuine RISC OS
> hardware as well.

> > > However if you think that using a OS designed for children is not
> > > for you then I concur.

> > And you even missed the point of my post.

> I think not and have come to the realisation that you are a troll.

> Kill filing you will also mean that I won't have to read your similar
> postings on other newsgroups as well :-)).

Time for a bit of Goodwill to All Men, Ron?  That last sentence was
severely OTT.

Happy Christmas to all users of RicsOS and to users of less friendly OSs.

Alan

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.
0
Alan
12/20/2016 7:02:01 PM
In message <55f165056fSpambin@argonet.co.uk>
 on 20 Dec 2016 Stuart  wrote:

> In article <1c29f2f055.dougjwebb@doug.j.webb.btinternet.com>,
>    Doug Webb <doug.j.webb@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > > And no one has yet mentioned any benefit to ME for using an
> > > R-Pi rather than the RPC ie what it can do that I want to do
> > > that that the RPC cannot.
> 
> > Cheaper to run and better on the environment.
> 
> > Certain tasks take less time as the system is quicker and so more 
> > productive.
> 
> I don't think things like RiscOSM will even run on a Risc PC
> 
> http://www.sinenomine.co.uk/software/riscosm/overview.html

Well it crawls!  It does function on the Risc PC a lot better than when we
first released the software, as it is not limited to the 26MB Wimp slot on
RISC OS 4 or 6 any more.  If you have a Risc PC with 64MB or more of RAM then
RiscOSM will work, and not run out of memory annoyingly early.  But it will
be awfully slow for urban areas.

-- 
Matthew Phillips
Durham
0
Matthew
12/20/2016 8:03:25 PM
In article <55f15a0865charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
>    wrote:

[Snip]

> > Sometimes I think the only reason there are still any RISC OS users
> > is the utter pig headedness of those remaining.

> [Snip]

> Or maybe we like using some of the programs.

I'm curious. Which?

I thought this would be a problem when switching to Iyonix years ago. I
had to stop using Impression and that was about it.  Just in time for
rarely needing a DTP package or even a word processor any more.
Alternatives are available for those who do.

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/20/2016 8:53:43 PM
In article <55f17371bcsee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>, Russell Hafter
News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <55f124709dtim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
> <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> > In article <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>, Russell
> > Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> > > The cost of a complete system seems to be around �130 upwards. Were
> > > I to be buying something, it would not be something in semi-kit
> > > form, but something I could plug into the mains at one end, the
> > > network at the other and just work.

> > I know this won't sway you because you seem determined to assume
> > there are difficulties which don't exist.

> Actually Tim, you are incorrect.

[Snip]

Apart from assuming there are problems which don't exist, you continue to
split hairs. You don't want to upgrade and that's fine.

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/20/2016 9:00:19 PM
In article <55f199b43etim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f15a0865charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
> >    wrote:

> [Snip]

> > > Sometimes I think the only reason there are still any RISC OS users
> > > is the utter pig headedness of those remaining.

> > [Snip]

> > Or maybe we like using some of the programs.

> I'm curious. Which?

OvPro and Artworks in particular.

> I thought this would be a problem when switching to Iyonix years ago. I
> had to stop using Impression and that was about it.  Just in time for
> rarely needing a DTP package or even a word processor any more.
> Alternatives are available for those who do.

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/20/2016 10:09:50 PM
In message <55f1851ce5dave@davenoise.co.uk>
          "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <55f183cd57ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>,
>   Ron Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <55f1649855dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
>>    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > Raspbian the Linux OS of choice on the Raspberry Pi is designed for
>> > > school children so very easy to use.
>
>> > And I'd remind you of our own OS origins. Doesn't make it foolproof,
>> > though. ;-)
>
>> You are, I think, being deliberately obtuse. You were complaining about
>> having to learn a third OS.
>
>What is it about you Linux zealots? Why must you try and convert everyone
>to your faith?

What a curious reaction.

I believe his point that children can easily learn to use Raspbian,
so you can probably learn it easily too.  No zealotry is involved.

I have come to realise over the years that an important difference
between children and adults is that the children have not yet learned
to be afraid of failure, so they get on and learn.  Too many adults
are afraid to try in case they might fail at one or two points on
the way and thus have to try again.

Dave
0
Dave
12/20/2016 10:10:26 PM
In article <55f18dfe5aron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk>,
   Ron Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f1851ce5dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
>    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > You are, I think, being deliberately obtuse. You were complaining
> > > about having to learn a third OS.

> > What is it about you Linux zealots? Why must you try and convert
> > everyone to your faith?

> You have read my email headers, haven't you? From genuine RISC OS
> hardware as well.

I'd hope you do use RISC OS given you post here. What I don't understand
is why you want to persuade me to use Linux when I'm happy with Windows
for the things RISC OS can't do. Especially since Linux has at least some
of the same browser problems as RISC OS.   

> > > However if you think that using a OS designed for children is not for
> > > you then I concur.

> > And you even missed the point of my post.

> I think not and have come to the realisation that you are a troll.

Good grief. Do you know what a troll is?

> Kill filing you will also mean that I won't have to read your similar
> postings on other newsgroups as well :-)).

You really think anyone cares who you killfile? ;-)

-- 
*If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
Dave
12/21/2016 12:20:50 AM
In article <55f1db5aeetim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> Ovation Pro seems to have been kept up-to-date, 32 bit and even ARMv7

> www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opr.html

> Artworks too.

> www.mw-software.com/software/artworks/artworks2.html

> No doubt someone who uses theses apps on a Pi will be along in a
> moment...

Also Techwriter, !Drawplus, !OpenVector, !PROCAD+, !Fireworkz Pro32 and
many others.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/
0
Stuart
12/21/2016 1:01:01 AM
In article <13baa0f155.DaveMeUK@my.inbox.com>,
   Dave Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]

> I believe his point that children can easily learn to use Raspbian,
> so you can probably learn it easily too.  No zealotry is involved.

> I have come to realise over the years that an important difference
> between children and adults is that the children have not yet learned
> to be afraid of failure, so they get on and learn.  Too many adults
> are afraid to try in case they might fail at one or two points on
> the way and thus have to try again.

> Dave

Undoubtedly right... But another very important aspect for Gr'ups is Time.

There are so many other life important things that *need* to be done.
As an adult you lay in bed after a horrendously busy day thinking, I
didn't get this, that, or the other done... You know tomorrow will be the
same, or probably worse.

Dave

When I was running my business, there were just not enough 'days in an
hour'.

;-)

-- 

Dave Triffid
0
Dave
12/21/2016 7:20:41 AM
In article <55f1aca9d2dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

[Snippy]
> I'd hope you do use RISC OS given you post here. What I don't understand
> is why you want to persuade me to use Linux when I'm happy with Windows
> for the things RISC OS can't do. Especially since Linux has at least some
> of the same browser problems as RISC OS.   

I agree with your sentiment Dave, like you, I use both RISC OS and
MS-Windows for my day to day computing, but I must take you to task a
little about Linux and browsers.

Linux doesn't have a browser problem, I have Firefox installed on my
Ubuntu play machine.  It is configured the same, and it does exactly the
same things as Firefox on the MS-Win machine.

Dave

-- 

Dave Triffid
0
Dave
12/21/2016 7:28:50 AM
In article <55f1a0abf8charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f199b43etim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
>    <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> > In article <55f15a0865charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> > <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
> > >    wrote:

> > [Snip]

> > > > Sometimes I think the only reason there are still any RISC OS
> > > > users is the utter pig headedness of those remaining.

> > > [Snip]

> > > Or maybe we like using some of the programs.

> > I'm curious. Which?

> OvPro and Artworks in particular.

Ovation Pro seems to have been kept up-to-date, 32 bit and even ARMv7

www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opr.html

Artworks too.

www.mw-software.com/software/artworks/artworks2.html

No doubt someone who uses theses apps on a Pi will be along in a moment...

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/21/2016 8:50:48 AM
In article <55f1db5aeetim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f1a0abf8charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > In article <55f199b43etim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
> >    <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <55f15a0865charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> > > <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > > > In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
> > > >    wrote:

> > > [Snip]

> > > > > Sometimes I think the only reason there are still any RISC OS
> > > > > users is the utter pig headedness of those remaining.

> > > > [Snip]

> > > > Or maybe we like using some of the programs.

> > > I'm curious. Which?

> > OvPro and Artworks in particular.

> Ovation Pro seems to have been kept up-to-date, 32 bit and even ARMv7

> www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opr.html

> Artworks too.

> www.mw-software.com/software/artworks/artworks2.html

> No doubt someone who uses theses apps on a Pi will be along in a moment...

They are both installed on my PiTop.

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/21/2016 9:08:06 AM
On 21/12/16 00:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[...]

> Especially since Linux has at least some of the same browser
> problems as RISC OS.

Such as?

Admittedly, I've only been using Linux on my desk for a few months, so 
my experience is somewhat limited, but I can't say I've noticed any 
problems browsing with it.

I *have* had problems with a couple of sites, but these weren't 
Linux-specific, and also affected the browsers on my Windows laptop.

-- 
Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software   - www.softrock.co.uk
                RISCOSitory          - www.riscository.com

Vote now in the RISC OS Awards 2016 - www.riscosawards.co.uk
0
Vince
12/21/2016 9:15:10 AM
In article <55f1e2e3bcSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
   Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f1db5aeetim@invalid.org.uk>,
>    Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> > Ovation Pro seems to have been kept up-to-date, 32 bit and even ARMv7

> > www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opr.html

> > Artworks too.

> > www.mw-software.com/software/artworks/artworks2.html

> > No doubt someone who uses theses apps on a Pi will be along in a
> > moment...

> Also Techwriter, !Drawplus, !OpenVector, !PROCAD+, !Fireworkz Pro32 and
> many others.

1 have #1 and #5 in your list, too.

-- 
from KT24 in Surrey, England
0
charles
12/21/2016 10:21:01 AM
In article <55f1d3d8bbdave@triffid.co.uk>,
   Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f1aca9d2dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
>    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snippy]
> > I'd hope you do use RISC OS given you post here. What I don't
> > understand is why you want to persuade me to use Linux when I'm happy
> > with Windows for the things RISC OS can't do. Especially since Linux
> > has at least some of the same browser problems as RISC OS.   

> I agree with your sentiment Dave, like you, I use both RISC OS and
> MS-Windows for my day to day computing, but I must take you to task a
> little about Linux and browsers.

> Linux doesn't have a browser problem, I have Firefox installed on my
> Ubuntu play machine.  It is configured the same, and it does exactly the
> same things as Firefox on the MS-Win machine.

Ah - sorry for being misinformed. I'd read recently it can have some of
the issues with add ons (or whatever, like Flash or similar)  

Didn't really mean to be tetchy about it, especially on here. But on other
groups when someone asks about a problem (usually with Windows) many just
answer you should be using Linux.

A bit like asking for help with a problem on your Jaguar to be told you
should have bought a Merc. ;-)

-- 
*I don't work here. I'm a consultant

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
Dave
12/21/2016 11:03:52 AM
In article <55f1dcefe8charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f1db5aeetim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
>    <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> > Ovation Pro seems to have been kept up-to-date, 32 bit and even ARMv7

> > www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opr.html

> > Artworks too.

> > www.mw-software.com/software/artworks/artworks2.html

> > No doubt someone who uses theses apps on a Pi will be along in a
> > moment...

> They are both installed on my PiTop.

So, all good reasons to stay with RISC OS.

One of the reasons I stay is for the different way the windows and mouse
behave. The operation of the desktop is better overall and in every way
to every other GUI I have ever used and I've used loads. There, I said it.

Merry Christmas!

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/21/2016 11:37:47 AM
In article <J-6dnd0-Y7WC1cfFnZ2dnUU78VfNnZ2d@giganews.com>, Vince M Hudd
<atdotcodotuk@dotcodotukat.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21/12/16 00:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> [...]

> > Especially since Linux has at least some of the same browser problems
> > as RISC OS.

> Such as?

Lack of Edge?

Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. Ah, ha ha ha ha.

I'm sorry but it is Christmas.

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/21/2016 11:52:34 AM
In article <55f1e788f1dave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> A bit like asking for help with a problem on your Jaguar to be told you
> should have bought a Merc. ;-)

English tourist in Dublin wants to get to Belfast. Asks stereotypical
Irishman the way. He replies "Ah, begorrah, if you want to go there, you
don't want to be startin' here."

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/21/2016 11:57:43 AM
In article <55f1e788f1dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <55f1d3d8bbdave@triffid.co.uk>,
>    Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <55f1aca9d2dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
> >    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> > [Snippy]
> > > I'd hope you do use RISC OS given you post here. What I don't
> > > understand is why you want to persuade me to use Linux when I'm happy
> > > with Windows for the things RISC OS can't do. Especially since Linux
> > > has at least some of the same browser problems as RISC OS.   

> > I agree with your sentiment Dave, like you, I use both RISC OS and
> > MS-Windows for my day to day computing, but I must take you to task a
> > little about Linux and browsers.

> > Linux doesn't have a browser problem, I have Firefox installed on my
> > Ubuntu play machine.  It is configured the same, and it does exactly
> > the same things as Firefox on the MS-Win machine.

> Ah - sorry for being misinformed. I'd read recently it can have some of
> the issues with add ons (or whatever, like Flash or similar)  

There are some issues with Addons, but that's been ongoing since they
ripped the guts out of Firefox to Chromify it (Australis), but that will
apply to Firefox on any OS.

Now they are changing the way Addons must be created, requiring them to be
rewritten, but that again will apply to Firefox on any OS.

Nb: There is a branch of Firefox still being developed called "Pale Moon"
that hasn't yet had the guts riped out of it...

Flash is a dying thing, Apple and others won't allow it on their machines,
and now Google is in the process of phasing it out, to be completely
replaced by the Newer HTML5.

It's suggested that this latest news will hasten the end of Flash.

> Didn't really mean to be tetchy about it, especially on here. But on
> other groups when someone asks about a problem (usually with Windows)
> many just answer you should be using Linux.

I know the feeling... ;-)

> A bit like asking for help with a problem on your Jaguar to be told you
> should have bought a Merc. ;-)

Dave

-- 

Dave Triffid
0
Dave
12/21/2016 12:27:36 PM
In article <55f1ef3377dave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
<dave@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> It's suggested that this latest news will hasten the end of Flash.

YouTube have stopped using it. Goodbye Flash. 

But goodbye Murnong?!?!?   :-(

-- 
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Ethical? Energy: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg Telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* RISC OS downloads http://timil.com/riscos
0
Tim
12/21/2016 12:40:22 PM
In article <55f05198d4dave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk>
wrote:
> In article <55f02152c2tim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk>
> wrote: [Snippy]

> > Linux has moved on a lot since he was with last with us in 2009. It
> > has a number of different GUIs available but Ubuntu is one of the most
> > straightforward and settled and a good introduction.

> Indeedy it has Tim.

> I have a Linux Ubuntu install on a big memory stick (Use the PCs boot
> menu to run it) and yes on the surface it is quite MS windowsy to use,
> but I have never managed to get to grips with the Sh**ty update apps
> methodology.

Personally, I'd tend to suggest that those who like RO should try ROX.

I also used Ubuntu for a few years. But nowdays tend to use Xfce Mint as a
starting point and install ROX.

A decade or more ago I'd have agreed that getting into Linux could be a
real PITA. But nowdays distros like Mint make it much easier.

Jim

-- 
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics  http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

0
Jim
12/21/2016 12:56:04 PM
In article <55f1eaa457tim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk>
wrote:

> So, all good reasons to stay with RISC OS.

> One of the reasons I stay is for the different way the windows and mouse
> behave. The operation of the desktop is better overall and in every way
> to every other GUI I have ever used and I've used loads. There, I said
> it.

I also happily continue to use RO and its apps for a lot of what I do.

However I also find that Linux is useful for various purposes. And has the
advantage that it offers a wide choice of GUIs and desktops. Including ROX
which goes some way to mimic the RO filer. 

In recent weeks I've been doing a lot of scanning and processing images. I
can do this either on Linux (gimp and xsane) or RO (DPingScan). Both work
fine. Sometimes I have to stitch together part-scans of a large diagram of
template. Either Gimp or Composition let me do this. Overall, I tend to end
up using RO. But Linux comes a close second and I use that when it may be
convenient for some reason.

In this case the main reason I'm preferring RO is that I was able more
easily to write a simple RO 'autobuilder' program to generate webpages that
then link in the images. But I assume this is just because past experience
and habit made this easier.

Shame, though, that Compo is no longer being maintained and developed.
Overall, it still works impressively on my ARMX6. But some aspects now
don't work - presumably because the relevant utils it uses need updating or
fixing for the modern OS/processors.

Jim

-- 
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics  http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

0
Jim
12/21/2016 1:09:40 PM
In message <55f1e788f1dave@davenoise.co.uk>
          "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>Didn't really mean to be tetchy about it, especially on here. But on other
>groups when someone asks about a problem (usually with Windows) many just
>answer you should be using Linux.
>
>A bit like asking for help with a problem on your Jaguar to be told you
>should have bought a Merc. ;-)

Well... not really.  A Merc costs a substantial amount of money;
Linux is free.  You can also try it as much as you like without
installing it.  And it is even possible to install it on your PC
in addition to Windows (i.e. dual boot), so, in effect, you can
have two cars for the price of one.

But, like your car analogy, Linux and Windows have their pedals
and steering wheels in the same places, so you can just get out
of one and drive the other :-)

Dave
0
Dave
12/21/2016 2:13:39 PM
In article <eumdnUovTP5z88XFnZ2dnUU78W_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
   Vince M Hudd <atdotcodotuk@dotcodotukat.co.uk> wrote:
> TBH, I think your best bet would be to actually come to a show

That's the other thread...

-- 

Steve Pampling
0
spampling
12/21/2016 4:17:14 PM
In article <79e9f8f155.DaveMeUK@my.inbox.com>,
   Dave Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

> But, like your car analogy, Linux and Windows have their pedals
> and steering wheels in the same places, so you can just get out
> of one and drive the other :-)

To extend that: Linux can have its pedals, etc, in the same place as
Windows. But can also have them arranged in other ways that may suit you.
Matter of your personal preferences/requirements.

Jim

-- 
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics  http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

0
Jim
12/21/2016 4:21:51 PM
In article <55f1736bc2see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>,
>    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:

> > God what a lot of crap, you really are determined to be
> > completely negative. You can stick the Pi behind the
> > monitor taking up no space at all. Every TV in my house
> > has a Pi hidden behind it amongst the other cables.

> Wow, just what I always needed - a computer stuck behind my
> TV.

> Not.

You'd rather have an oldie underneath a TV screen with no receiver?

-- 

Steve Pampling
0
spampling
12/21/2016 4:22:28 PM
In article <55f1851ce5dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> What is it about you Linux zealots? Why must you try and convert everyone
> to your faith?

I mentioned Linux.
I don't use it as a home OS, and only for specific tasks at work.

-- 

Steve Pampling
0
spampling
12/21/2016 4:25:44 PM
In article <55f1ebfbe2tim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> Lack of Edge?

The amount of cursing I hear from users of same leads me to think not
having that is akin to not having some disease.

-- 

Steve Pampling
0
spampling
12/21/2016 4:27:40 PM
In message <55f173c40esee.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>
          Russell Hafter News <see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:

>In article <55f15f7d3abric-nospam@argonet.co.uk>, Brian
>Carroll <bric-nospam@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article
>>    <eumdnUovTP5z88XFnZ2dnUU78W_NnZ2d@giganews.com>, Vince
>>    M Hudd <atdotcodotuk@dotcodotukat.co.uk> wrote:
>> > On 19/12/16 22:30, Steve Fryatt wrote:
>> > > On 19 Dec, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
>> > >     <55f11c3592see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>:
>
>> > >> Does it include the OS?
>
>> > > The OS (and any updates) is a free download from ROOL.
>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> > One benefit is obviously the increase in speed over a
>> > RiscPC, but another (noting you said you currently have
>> > a CRT sitting atop the RiscPC) is that *replacing* that
>> > set up completely would reduce the space taken by quite
>> > a margin.
>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> Possibly not so likely because I'm sure (like me) you
>> will want to fetch numerous files from the RiscPC onto
>> the Pi, using ShareFS.  But as others have said space
>> really is not a problem. My complete Pi system (Pi, hub,
>> wireless adapter, keyboard, hard disc) fits on a piece of
>> MDF board 50 x 25cm).
>
>Actually, on due reflection, this would not be a problem, as
>only one of the RPCs sits in front of me. The two others are
>elsewhere in the house, so I could copy stuff from one of
>the others.
>

For just over �60 you could get a PIPOD:

<http://www.riscosbits.co.uk/pipod.htm>

Have the PI living inside a RISC PC.


-- 
Kev Wells
http://kevsoft.co.uk/
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
0
Kevin
12/21/2016 6:12:27 PM
In article <55f1736bc2see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid>, Russell Hafter News
<URL:mailto:see.sig@russellhafter.me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <o39ov3$sp9$1@dont-email.me>,
>    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > God what a lot of crap, you really are determined to be
> > completely negative. You can stick the Pi behind the
> > monitor taking up no space at all. Every TV in my house
> > has a Pi hidden behind it amongst the other cables.
> 
> Wow, just what I always needed - a computer stuck behind my
> TV.
> 
> Not.

What would be the problem?

Having easy access to the actual computer used to be important for the
insertion of floppy discs or CDs but floppies aren't used any more and all
removable storage you might want to plug in (CD, USB pen) will be on USB,
often plugged into a hub. So all you need is for the Hub to be accessible or
a USB extension cable and Bob's your uncle.
            
n.b. We sell USB extension cables!
 


Chris Evans

-- 

**** IGEPv5: The fastest RISC OS computer so far! ****
--------- http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/igepv5 ----------
CJE Micro's  / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists' 
Telephone: 01903 523222              Fax: 01903 213901
chris@cjemicros.co.uk      http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/ 
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,      BN11 2EN 

Don't let the urgent things in life, crowd out the important things!

0
Chris
12/22/2016 10:06:33 AM
Reply: