f



Operating systems at war?

PC Advisor have published a piece about the best operating systems: Linux, Mac
OS X, Vista, and XP. Of course they have had to include two Windows versions
because so many people are rejecting Vista.

	http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=12839
	Linux, Mac OS X, Vista and XP: head-to-head News - PC Advisor

I'd like to publish the missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats the
others - and send a copy of the published piece to the editor of PC Advisor.
If anyone wants to add their contribution to those of Michael DeAgonia,
Preston Gralla, David Ramel, and James Turner then please get in touch with
me.

-- 
John Cartmell - editor AT qercus.com  www.qercus.com   www.acornuser.com
	Qercus/Acorn User: reporting on computers & computing since 1982
	Qercus/Acorn User, 30 Finnybank Rd Sale M33 6LR  == 0845 006 8822
0
editor605 (623)
4/28/2008 12:19:10 PM
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Hi,

Qercus editor wrote:

> http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=12839
> Linux, Mac OS X, Vista and XP: head-to-head News - PC Advisor
> 
> I'd like to publish the missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats the
> others

Okay - playing devil's advocate here. Besides the physical size and speed
advantages of being on a ROM (in the ROL version anyway), I'm not really
sure how RO can beat the others "hands down".

While I will agree that having the OS on the ROM is great (no chance of it
getting snafu'd by some virus or other so the core remains intact), I'm not
sure how comparing the rate of development in either the kernel or
contributing applications can make RO anywhere near as good as either the
commercial or non-commercial operating systems available (or at least those
with a large following!).

Vista blows chunks - no denying that, unfriendly is not the word I would use
for it. The word I would use is not publishable in polite society. XP is
finally getting to grips with security (though a recent survey showed that
RedHat was about 70% more secure than Win32) and the rate of development
for the likes of the Linux Kernel is nothing short of amazing.

If you're talking about development of surrounding applications (such as
DTP, spreadsheets etc), you're on a hiding to nothing as well.

Care to elaborate on the hands down part?

TTFN

Paul
-- 
Sie k�nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei� machen!
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
paul84 (611)
4/29/2008 11:00:27 AM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:00:27 +0100, Paul F. Johnson wrote:

> While I will agree that having the OS on the ROM is great (no chance of
> it getting snafu'd by some virus or other so the core remains intact),

Although no modern RISC OS machines put it in ROM.  The Iyonix and A9 
Home both store it in flash, which could be corrupted by a virus if it 
knew what to do.  At this point, you'll have to get your JTAG cable out.

I'd have thought most RiscPCs these days store their OS on the hard disc, 
and only use what is in ROM as a "boot loader".

> I'm not sure how comparing the rate of development in either the kernel
> or contributing applications can make RO anywhere near as good as either
> the commercial or non-commercial operating systems available (or at
> least those with a large following!).

The most important thing about an OS is the applications available for 
it.  RISC OS lacks in this area, and part of the reasons for that are 
that it's not a very good OS for developers: It makes things very 
difficult in places.

> Care to elaborate on the hands down part?

The only thing I can think of is the GUI, and that's purely a personal 
preference.  I find the RISC OS GUI obstructionist these days, having 
learnt how to get the best out of others.

B.

0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 11:21:37 AM
Hi,

Rob Kendrick wrote:

> I'd have thought most RiscPCs these days store their OS on the hard disc,
> and only use what is in ROM as a "boot loader".

Including those using 4.02 only? Sorry, it's been a while and my memory is
playing tricks having spent the last week beating the hell out of some C#
code for mono!

>> I'm not sure how comparing the rate of development in either the kernel
>> or contributing applications can make RO anywhere near as good as either
>> the commercial or non-commercial operating systems available (or at
>> least those with a large following!).
> 
> The most important thing about an OS is the applications available for
> it.  RISC OS lacks in this area, and part of the reasons for that are
> that it's not a very good OS for developers: It makes things very
> difficult in places.

I'd agree with that!
 
>> Care to elaborate on the hands down part?
> 
> The only thing I can think of is the GUI, and that's purely a personal
> preference.  I find the RISC OS GUI obstructionist these days, having
> learnt how to get the best out of others.

Additionally, if you want a RO desktop sort of thing, there is the ROX
project.

Personally, I found the RO GUI quite nice to get to grips to, but then
quickly it became too limiting.

John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

TTFN

Paul
-- 
Sie k�nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei� machen!
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
paul84 (611)
4/29/2008 11:36:48 AM
In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>,
   Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
> > I'd have thought most RiscPCs these days store their OS on the hard
> > disc, and only use what is in ROM as a "boot loader".

> Including those using 4.02 only? Sorry, it's been a while and my memory
> is playing tricks having spent the last week beating the hell out of
> some C# code for mono!

How about the 4.39 "adjust" ROM?

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
4/29/2008 12:08:47 PM
In article <21312$4816ffcf$5464@news.teranews.com>,
   Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
> Care to elaborate on the hands down part?

If you read the very first bit (about Linux) in the PC Advisor article it is
enthusiastic about being able to run on old hardware of low spec. We can beat
that! I'd expect better GUI, new versions of the OS running on minimal spec,
consistent UI, &c. I've always thought the UI was much superior and RO 6.10 is
better still. There is plenty of room to validly declare RO better than the
alternatives.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/29/2008 12:37:46 PM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:37:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <21312$4816ffcf$5464@news.teranews.com>,
>    Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
>> Care to elaborate on the hands down part?
> 
> If you read the very first bit (about Linux) in the PC Advisor article
> it is enthusiastic about being able to run on old hardware of low spec.
> We can beat that! I'd expect better GUI, new versions of the OS running
> on minimal spec, consistent UI, &c. I've always thought the UI was much
> superior and RO 6.10 is better still. There is plenty of room to validly
> declare RO better than the alternatives.

As I said in this thread earlier, GUI is a personal preference.  It's 
tricky to define what makes one thing better than another.  I personally 
find UNIX's and GNOME's UI far superior in the general case, although 
they both have their strong points.

In terms of hardware, the hardware on which you can run Linux on is 
significantly cheaper, which I suppose is part of what they mean by low-
spec machines.  Certainly, if you're wanting to browse the web to its 
full potential, a low-spec PC will do this in a far superior manner to 
even the highest-end RISC OS box - so you can't equally compare them.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 12:57:58 PM
In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>,
   Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
> John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

Proper drag n drop across windows that stay where you want them and allow you
to modify files and drop them straight into eg a graphics frame without having
to save them first.

Intelligent thumbnailing, inherited layouts, and dead easy type-setting are
quite good too. ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/29/2008 1:03:35 PM
In a dim and distant universe <qXERj.17728$244.10069@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> enlightened us thusly:
> As I said in this thread earlier, GUI is a personal preference.  It's
> tricky to define what makes one thing better than another.  I personally
> find UNIX's and GNOME's UI far superior in the general case, although
> they both have their strong points.

I think it's down to personal choice. I was brought up on KDE and much
preferred that to Gnome, which I could never get the hang of.
However, having been using Ubuntu a bit more recently (which installs Gnome
by default), I've decided that I much prefer Gnome and wondered why I ever
used KDE.

Having said that, I still reckon Gnome sucks in comparison to RISC OS.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
4/29/2008 2:27:25 PM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:27:25 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:

> Having said that, I still reckon Gnome sucks in comparison to RISC OS.

The keyboard control is the killer-feature for me.  You can't manipulate 
windows from the keyboard under RISC OS, for example.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 2:43:51 PM
In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F. Johnson
<paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

Either I couldn't find something that was there or you read something
that wasn't there - the latter error being not at all uncommon in these
groups.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
4/29/2008 3:56:12 PM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:03:35 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>,
>    Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
>> John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?
> 
> Proper drag n drop across windows that stay where you want them and
> allow you to modify files and drop them straight into eg a graphics
> frame without having to save them first.

I'm having trouble seeing anything here that you can't do elsewhere.  
Drag and drop is less interesting when you have a decent clipboard, as 
it's actually more effort to use.

> Intelligent thumbnailing, 

Intellegent how so?  Under GNOME and KDE, the thumbnailing is utterly 
superb - even thumbnailing PDFs and movie files, without slowing down the 
system while it does them.  It also caches the generated thumbnails so 
they don't need to be regenerated.

> inherited layouts, and dead easy type-setting
> are quite good too.

These aren't features of an OS.

B.

0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 4:18:44 PM
In article <HuGRj.17753$244.2073@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:27:25 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:

> > Having said that, I still reckon Gnome sucks in comparison to RISC OS.

> The keyboard control is the killer-feature for me.  You can't manipulate 
> windows from the keyboard under RISC OS, for example.

There is pretty good filer control. What windows control would you add?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/29/2008 4:23:27 PM
In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F. Johnson
> <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> Either I couldn't find something that was there or you read something
> that wasn't there - the latter error being not at all uncommon in these
> groups.

? Your meaning appears to have escaped your words! Clarification?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/29/2008 4:24:52 PM
In a dim and distant universe <ETHRj.17770$244.2516@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> enlightened us thusly:
> I'm having trouble seeing anything here that you can't do elsewhere.
> Drag and drop is less interesting when you have a decent clipboard, as
> it's actually more effort to use.

Clicking in a window WITHOUT it jumping to the front, or being able to drag
windows behind other windows, also without them jumping to the front.

Being able to ADJUST close a window (say editing a text or word processor
file) and the filer automatically re-opening the parent window if you've
closed all the filer windows.

Horizontally locking the mouse movement when scrolling vertical scrollbars
(and vice versa).

Being able to 'adjust' click on icons and scrollbars in order to reverse
the action of select clicking.

Being able to SHIFT-double-click *any* file in order to load it into a text
editor.

Being able to shift-drag files into text editor windows in order to paste
the filepath URL.

Some of these options can be bodged on other OSs but they're essentials for
me that RISC OS has built-in. I could think of more but I'm busy and those
are a few key ones that just rolled off the top of my head. :-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
4/29/2008 4:45:48 PM
In a dim and distant universe <HuGRj.17753$244.2073@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> enlightened us thusly:
> The keyboard control is the killer-feature for me.  You can't manipulate
> windows from the keyboard under RISC OS, for example.

I've got a third party module which allows you to open/close/move/jump to
front windows from the keyboard.

I believe RISC OS 6.10 introduces filer keyboard shortcuts as standard, but
I use Dave Thomas/Martin Avison's QFiler on the Iyonix.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
4/29/2008 4:47:35 PM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:45:48 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:

> Clicking in a window WITHOUT it jumping to the front, or being able to
> drag windows behind other windows, also without them jumping to the
> front.

Not unique to RISC OS.

> Being able to ADJUST close a window (say editing a text or word
> processor file) and the filer automatically re-opening the parent window
> if you've closed all the filer windows.

The method of this is perhaps unique to RISC OS, but the functionality 
itself is not.  Modern file/save dialogues make most of this redundant in 
any case.

> Horizontally locking the mouse movement when scrolling vertical
> scrollbars (and vice versa).

Not unique to RISC OS.  (And I rather like the behavior of Windows in 
this case: it allows you to rapidly switch between the location you've 
scrolled to and the location you scrolled from by simply moving the mouse 
away while holding the button: both approaches have their advantages to, 
and it's just a case of what you're used to.)

> Being able to 'adjust' click on icons and scrollbars in order to reverse
> the action of select clicking.

A nice usability idea that I personally rarely use.

> Being able to SHIFT-double-click *any* file in order to load it into a
> text editor.

Not unique to RISC OS.

> Being able to shift-drag files into text editor windows in order to
> paste the filepath URL.

Not unique to RISC OS.

The feature I miss most on RISC OS is being able to right-click on menu 
entries to activate that item and leave the menu open.  Most GTK 
applications support "tear-off" menus which provide similar functionalty, 
but are more useful in other cases.  (ie, not useful if you just want to 
select two or three items, but much more useful if you're going to be 
revisiting the menu soon after.)

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 5:05:20 PM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:47:35 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe
> <HuGRj.17753$244.2073@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> enlightened us thusly:
>> The keyboard control is the killer-feature for me.  You can't
>> manipulate windows from the keyboard under RISC OS, for example.
> 
> I've got a third party module which allows you to open/close/move/jump
> to front windows from the keyboard.

Does it let me maximise the window only vertically or only horizontally, 
and then restore it to its previous size?  Does it let me move the window 
to other virtual desktops?  Does it let me manipulate the always-on-top 
flag?  Etc.  If you have to install a third-party add-on to allow this, 
then that's an example of where the GUI is lacking, not a strong-point.

B.

0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 5:07:06 PM
In der Nachricht <4f9718b435editor@qercus.com>
          Qercus editor <editor@qercus.com> hat geschrieben:

> PC Advisor have published a piece about the best operating systems: Linux, Mac
> OS X, Vista, and XP. Of course they have had to include two Windows versions
> because so many people are rejecting Vista.

Internet Explorer? Firefox?

-- 
Venusberg, Upper Bavaria
British A7000+ (computer) running RISC OS 4.39 Adjust (OS)
Portrait & email: http://home.chiemgau-net.de/ausserstorfer/
0
4/29/2008 5:22:42 PM
In article <kzIRj.17777$244.3948@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> Not unique to RISC OS.

That doesn't really mean anything; the question is whether _all_ of your
"Not unique to RISC OS" features are found in any _single_ other OS. I'm
sure you could take any killer application and disassemble all of its killer
features to show how some other app somewhere in the world does a couple of
them.

If there are a lot of nice features which all come in one package, then
that's a good thing.

The only things the Windows GUI does better than RISC OS are IMO:

* keyboard control
* the multitasking model (although this also has its problems)

> (And I rather like the behavior of Windows in this case: it allows you to
> rapidly switch between the location you've scrolled to and the location
> you scrolled from by simply moving the mouse away while holding the
> button: both approaches have their advantages to, and it's just a case of
> what you're used to.)

Argh! That drives me mad, especially as the most likely direction you are
going to scroll off the scroll bar is in the direction you are scrolling.
E.g. when scrolling to the bottom of the document, you go off the bottom of
the scroll bar and the window jumps back to where you were - the exact
opposite of what was intended!

As you say, it's a matter of taste.

> > Being able to 'adjust' click on icons and scrollbars in order to reverse
> > the action of select clicking.
>
> A nice usability idea that I personally rarely use.

I use it all the time. Also adjust dragging a scroll bar to scroll
two-dimensionally. If you don't use it much, then of course you won't see
the benefits.

For example, the ability to resize windows to the left or upwards is I'm
sure a useful Windows GUI feature but I never use it simply because I'm not
used to it.

Most Linux GUIs (including the applications) have tended to be poor quality
clones of the Windows GUI but at least there has been a bit of effort in
this area in recent years and, not surprisingly, there are quite a few Linux
distros which have a much better user experience than Windows.

I'd say the consistency of style throughout RISC OS is a big positive. The
way applications look and feel consistent. MacOS is really getting that way
nowadays, too. Linux not so much and Windows - dream on...

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
4/29/2008 5:50:18 PM
On 29 Apr, 17:18, Rob Kendrick <n...@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:03:35 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > Proper drag n drop across windows that stay where you want them and
> > allow you to modify files and drop them straight into eg a graphics
> > frame without having to save them first.
>
> I'm having trouble seeing anything here that you can't do elsewhere.

[Caveat: I've hardly used Linux but since, when I have used it, the UI
seems to be striving to replicate Windows, I'll assume it behaves the
same in these respects - or will in future ;) ]

There are quite a few little things which make a big difference for me
- like being able to right-click on menu items[1], right drag on
scroll bars etc. The main one is probably the way input focus works in
windows/dialogues. To illustrate the point:
1) For those of you in an office at the moment, look around you - /
everyone/ (including me) is using their app full screen
2) RISC OS "document viewers" invariably have a "new view" option
which only works nicely because of the way input focus etc works.

Some Windows text editors have a "keep on top" menu option which seems
to be a nasty kludgy way of replicating this behaviour.


> Drag and drop is less interesting when you have a decent clipboard,

I find it quite intuitive, unlike cut-and-paste which is a sort of
hidden trick - I agree that for "power users" cut-and-paste is
probably more efficient.

Adam

[1] Recently I noticed some Windows app which kept its systray menu
open, allowing me to tick a couple of options before it closed,
though.
0
news4275 (1182)
4/29/2008 7:13:02 PM
Hi,

Ste (news) wrote:

> In article <kzIRj.17777$244.3948@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> Not unique to RISC OS.

> If there are a lot of nice features which all come in one package, then
> that's a good thing.

And when the you find it as default, out of the box with very little hassle,
it's even better. I hate it when I say that XP does things far better than
RO could ever dream of doing.
 
> The only things the Windows GUI does better than RISC OS are IMO:
> 
> * keyboard control

Yay. Let's hit the Window's key!

> * the multitasking model (although this also has its problems)

Which blows chunks. You want a decent multitasking model look to MacOSX
(okay, it's BSD with funky icons...) or Linux.
 
> As you say, it's a matter of taste.

Unfortunately, when someone advocates their idea for taste over someone
elses and then it gets published, you get the likes of the initial posting
here.

>> > Being able to 'adjust' click on icons and scrollbars in order to
>> > reverse the action of select clicking.
>>
>> A nice usability idea that I personally rarely use.
> 
> I use it all the time. Also adjust dragging a scroll bar to scroll
> two-dimensionally. If you don't use it much, then of course you won't see
> the benefits.

And they are?
 
> Most Linux GUIs (including the applications) have tended to be poor
> quality clones of the Windows GUI but at least there has been a bit of
> effort in this area in recent years and, not surprisingly, there are quite
> a few Linux distros which have a much better user experience than Windows.

Here I must completely disagree with you. Have a look at the UI for the
likes of Scribus or Rosegarden and you'll see that Quark and Sibelius
really is an unpleasant experience. Some apps will always look bad, some
will always behave bad but thankfully with the likes of a modern distro,
these have fallen away and you're left with something really well polished.
 
> I'd say the consistency of style throughout RISC OS is a big positive. The
> way applications look and feel consistent. MacOS is really getting that
> way nowadays, too. Linux not so much and Windows - dream on...

I actually find the style guide to be a complete PITA to be honest. The Mac
looks more or less how it has for many years, just more polished. To be
really blunt, the Linux and Windows platforms have come on in leaps and
bounds. Take OpenOffice for example. Works exactly the same way on Win32
and Linux, so does Firefox, so does GIMP. Not exactly minor applications by
any stretch of the imagination.

TTFN

Paul

-- 
Sie k�nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei� machen!
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
paul84 (611)
4/29/2008 7:18:20 PM
On 29 Apr, 20:18, "Paul F. Johnson" <p...@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
wrote:
> Ste wrote:
> > I'd say the consistency of style throughout RISC OS is a big positive. The
> > way applications look and feel consistent. MacOS is really getting that
> > way nowadays, too. Linux not so much and Windows - dream on...

> I actually find the style guide to be a complete PITA to be honest. The Mac
> looks more or less how it has for many years, just more polished.

> To be really blunt take OpenOffice for example. Works exactly the
> same way on Win32 and Linux,

I don't understand your point here. Given that the two systems do not
have identical interfaces, the very fact that an app /does/ appear
identical on both of them is a massive failing. It's clearly not
fitting in with the overall theme of the UI.

I was looking at Gnumeric on my XP laptop the other day and was
completely flabergasted at the bizaare save dialogue it expected me to
use. (Oh, there's another item for my list - I prefer drag and drop
saving to Windows-style save dialogues.)

Adam
0
news4275 (1182)
4/29/2008 8:03:45 PM
> Clicking in a window WITHOUT it jumping to the front, or being able to drag
> windows behind other windows, also without them jumping to the front.
> Being able to ADJUST close a window (say editing a text or word processor
> file) and the filer automatically re-opening the parent window if you've
> closed all the filer windows.
> Horizontally locking the mouse movement when scrolling vertical scrollbars
> (and vice versa).
> Being able to 'adjust' click on icons and scrollbars in order to reverse
> the action of select clicking.
> Being able to SHIFT-double-click *any* file in order to load it into a text
> editor.
> Being able to shift-drag files into text editor windows in order to paste
> the filepath URL.

etc...

Speaking as an ignoramous - I wonder if these features of the ROS GUI
could be translocated to Windows via some sort of add-on, shell-extension,
what-have-you?
Perhaps someone with the requisite knowledge would care to comment?

-- 
Stewart Goldwater
http://janusg.co.nr
0
nwsgrp (543)
4/29/2008 9:33:44 PM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:18:20 +0100, Paul F. Johnson wrote:

> Here I must completely disagree with you. Have a look at the UI for the
> likes of Scribus or Rosegarden and you'll see that Quark and Sibelius
> really is an unpleasant experience. 

Please tell me you aren't serious.  Scribus is one of the most hideous 
pieces of software I have ever had the misfortune to have ever used.  
It's a practical joke on humanity.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 9:35:54 PM
In article <ETHRj.17770$244.2516@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:03:35 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>,
> >    Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
> >> John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?
> > 
> > Proper drag n drop across windows that stay where you want them and
> > allow you to modify files and drop them straight into eg a graphics
> > frame without having to save them first.

> I'm having trouble seeing anything here that you can't do elsewhere.  
> Drag and drop is less interesting when you have a decent clipboard, as 
> it's actually more effort to use.

I have a window with a DTP page. I partially cover it with a graphics editing
window and OLE a graphic from the DTP page into the graphics window, modify
the graphic, drag the completed piece into a third application that also party
covers the DTP page, complete the editing, drop the final product back into
the frame on the DTP page - all without any window springing in front of the
others unwanted.

> > Intelligent thumbnailing, 

> Intellegent how so?

As in RO 6.10

[Snip]

> > inherited layouts, and dead easy type-setting
> > are quite good too.

> These aren't features of an OS.

They are features of the RISC OS GUI.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/29/2008 9:57:20 PM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:23:27 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <HuGRj.17753$244.2073@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:27:25 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:
> 
>> > Having said that, I still reckon Gnome sucks in comparison to RISC
>> > OS.
> 
>> The keyboard control is the killer-feature for me.  You can't
>> manipulate windows from the keyboard under RISC OS, for example.
> 
> There is pretty good filer control. What windows control would you add?

What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of *windows*, 
not the contents of filers.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 10:35:09 PM
In article <0070-2-0.20080429.223036.44@ntlworld.com>,
   S G <nwsgrp@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Speaking as an ignoramous - I wonder if these features of the ROS GUI
> could be translocated to Windows via some sort of add-on,
> shell-extension, what-have-you? Perhaps someone with the requisite
> knowledge would care to comment?

I think it's probably called virtual acorn ;-)

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
4/29/2008 10:49:38 PM
In article <xoNRj.1297$WA5.886@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:23:27 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > In article <HuGRj.17753$244.2073@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
> >    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:27:25 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:
> > 
> >> > Having said that, I still reckon Gnome sucks in comparison to RISC
> >> > OS.
> > 
> >> The keyboard control is the killer-feature for me.  You can't
> >> manipulate windows from the keyboard under RISC OS, for example.
> > 
> > There is pretty good filer control. What windows control would you add?

> What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of *windows*, 
> not the contents of filers.

Why? - and How?
With the RISC OS GUI how/when would it help? I can see it being helpful with
others - but that's because it helps overcome related deficits (compared with
RO).

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/29/2008 10:52:09 PM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:57:20 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

>> > Intelligent thumbnailing,
> 
>> Intellegent how so?
> 
> As in RO 6.10

I repeat my question:  Intelligent how so?

> [Snip]
> 
>> > inherited layouts, and dead easy type-setting are quite good too.
> 
>> These aren't features of an OS.
> 
> They are features of the RISC OS GUI.

Err, how?  These are application features, and not dependant in any way 
on the RISC OS GUI in any way.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/29/2008 10:55:39 PM
In article <a01b3$4817747e$13180@news.teranews.com>,
   Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
> Take OpenOffice for example. Works exactly the same way on Win32
> and Linux

I mean one application working in a similar way to another _on the same OS_
not across different ports on different operating system. In fact Open
Office is a great case for my earlier point; take the utter shite user
interface of MS Office 2003, lose a few features, break a couple more and
presto! you have Open Office.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
4/29/2008 11:26:11 PM
In a dim and distant universe <0070-2-0.20080429.223036.44@ntlworld.com>,
   S G <nwsgrp@ntlworld.com> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> Speaking as an ignoramous - I wonder if these features of the ROS GUI
> could be translocated to Windows via some sort of add-on, shell-extension,
> what-have-you?

Windows would then probably be a few GBs bigger!! ;-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
4/30/2008 6:59:30 AM
Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:23:27 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> 
> > In article <HuGRj.17753$244.2073@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
> >    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:27:25 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:
> > 
> >> > Having said that, I still reckon Gnome sucks in comparison to RISC
> >> > OS.
> > 
> >> The keyboard control is the killer-feature for me.  You can't
> >> manipulate windows from the keyboard under RISC OS, for example.
> > 
> > There is pretty good filer control. What windows control would you
> > add?
> 
> What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of *windows*,
> not the contents of filers.

Although filer keyboard shortcuts such as Ctrl-A would be useful

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/30/2008 7:22:15 AM
In article <4f97d67dcejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <xoNRj.1297$WA5.886@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

[Rob was actually referring to Gnome judging by the quoting, but I'm
going to refer to Windows because it's what I know, both from a
programming and using basis]

> > What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of
> > *windows*, not the contents of filers.

> Why? - and How? With the RISC OS GUI how/when would it help?

Being able to whiz around the contents of a window or dialogue and
control things from the keyboard is a great help because it's a time
saver if the alternative is to keep moving back between keyboard and
mouse.

It's not so bad where there *everything* in the window is done from
the keyboard (eg all writeable icons) or *everything* in the window
requires the mouse (eg all options) because you don't switch back and
forth - but neither extreme is the case for all windows, all dialogue
boxes.

> I can see it being helpful with others - but that's because it
> helps overcome related deficits (compared with RO).

No, it doesn't help overcome deficits, it helps show that this is an
area where RISC OS is *in* deficit. Woefully.

With Windows, when a programmer designs a window or dialogue, he can
set any object within that window as a 'tab stop', which means it can
be reached from the keyboard (using the tab key) and then manipulated
with other keys. *Any* object - not just the writeable fields and
default action buttons.

I don't think I've ever read the terminology used to describe this,
so it may use something different, but think of it like the input
focus that we have on RISC OS. On Windows, as well as the window
having the input focus, one control within that window will have it -
indicated by a dotted line around the control. Press tab, and the
*next* control is highlighted that way. Press tab again, and the next
is highlighted, and so on. Press tab from the last control, and the
first is highlighted.

The best example I can think of where this is useful is in a
database[1], where each record consists of both textual items and
other options, and where lots of new records need to be added. If all
of the data (including non-textual) can be entered from the keyboard,
as well as saving the record and opening a new one, it can be input a
lot faster than switching between mouse and keyboard where necessary.

And, of course, *any* menu can be reached and invoked from the
keyboard, not just those with a keyboard shortcut assigned.

[1] And keep in mind that the term 'database' covers more things than
just a simple flat file database of (eg) subscribers. Most notably
(from my point of view) it also covers accounting systems, into which
in large or busy companies there is often *lots* of information to be
input - and having to resort to the mouse would be a great time
waster.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
4/30/2008 7:46:09 AM
In article <4f97b3091ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
>    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F.
> > Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > Either I couldn't find something that was there or you read
> > something that wasn't there - the latter error being not at all
> > uncommon in these groups.

> ? Your meaning appears to have escaped your words! Clarification?

You didn't use the term "hands down", PFJ did; yet his posts were
asking you to elaborate on, or comment on, the "hands down" as though
the term had been used by you when you wrote: "I'd like to publish the
missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats the others - ".

My guess would be that he misread your post as saying "...RO 6.10 or RO
5.13 beats the others hands down" in the same way as rather too many of
the subscribers to these groups seem to read what isn't actually
written and then persist in their errors because they can't be bothered
to go back and check what was actually said. I could be wrong, of
course, but if so, I do wonder why he was so insistent on you
elaborating on the "hands down" bit.

You get damned so often by the /honourable men/ here for the not always
unreasonable things you do write; I'd hate to see the possibility of
you being castigated for something you didn't.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
4/30/2008 8:22:14 AM
In a dim and distant universe
<gemini.k04n1w000crsk00po.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> Although filer keyboard shortcuts such as Ctrl-A would be useful

They already exist, either built-in in the case of RISC OS Six, or via
QFiler, which can be downloaded from
http://www.avisoft.force9.co.uk/QFiler.htm

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
4/30/2008 8:29:18 AM
In a dim and distant universe <4f9806c405spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> With Windows, when a programmer designs a window or dialogue, he can set
> any object within that window as a 'tab stop', which means it can be
> reached from the keyboard (using the tab key) and then manipulated with
> other keys. *Any* object - not just the writeable fields and default
> action buttons.

You can do this in RISC OS too. It just comes down to application design
and how you write something to behave.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
4/30/2008 8:33:16 AM
In article <LHNRj.1306$WA5.156@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:57:20 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> >> > Intelligent thumbnailing,
> > 
> >> Intellegent how so?
> > 
> > As in RO 6.10

> I repeat my question:  Intelligent how so?

Are you asking about the features of RO 6.10 (if so read Qercus!) or
questionning the description?

> > [Snip]
> > 
> >> > inherited layouts, and dead easy type-setting are quite good too.
> > 
> >> These aren't features of an OS.
> > 
> > They are features of the RISC OS GUI.

> Err, how?  These are application features, and not dependant in any way 
> on the RISC OS GUI in any way.

How? I don't know how - I didn't program them. They work when you choose the
appropriate configuration. What makes you think they aren't part of the GUI?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 8:58:25 AM
In article <gemini.k04n1w000crsk00po.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> > On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:23:27 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <HuGRj.17753$244.2073@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
> > >    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:27:25 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:
> > > 
> > >> > Having said that, I still reckon Gnome sucks in comparison to RISC
> > >> > OS.
> > > 
> > >> The keyboard control is the killer-feature for me.  You can't
> > >> manipulate windows from the keyboard under RISC OS, for example.
> > > 
> > > There is pretty good filer control. What windows control would you
> > > add?
> > 
> > What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of *windows*,
> > not the contents of filers.

> Although filer keyboard shortcuts such as Ctrl-A would be useful

It is useful. 'Insert' for a new directory is even better as you then don't
need to drag to save it! ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 9:07:32 AM
In article <4f9806c405spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f97d67dcejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <xoNRj.1297$WA5.886@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
> >    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> [Rob was actually referring to Gnome judging by the quoting, but I'm
> going to refer to Windows because it's what I know, both from a
> programming and using basis]

> > > What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of
> > > *windows*, not the contents of filers.

> > Why? - and How? With the RISC OS GUI how/when would it help?

> Being able to whiz around the contents of a window or dialogue and
> control things from the keyboard is a great help because it's a time
> saver if the alternative is to keep moving back between keyboard and
> mouse.

> It's not so bad where there *everything* in the window is done from
> the keyboard (eg all writeable icons) or *everything* in the window
> requires the mouse (eg all options) because you don't switch back and
> forth - but neither extreme is the case for all windows, all dialogue
> boxes.

I can see why it's handy with Windows - but with RISC OS so much more can be
done with the mouse. You seem to want a Windows kludge (because it's needed in
Windows) when it isn't needed for proficient use in RISC OS. We now have
keyboard manipulation of the filer but I've yet to be convinced that much more
is needed - but do try to convince me that it is needed *in RISC OS*.

> > I can see it being helpful with others - but that's because it
> > helps overcome related deficits (compared with RO).

> No, it doesn't help overcome deficits, it helps show that this is an
> area where RISC OS is *in* deficit. Woefully.

> With Windows, when a programmer designs a window or dialogue, he can
> set any object within that window as a 'tab stop', which means it can
> be reached from the keyboard (using the tab key) and then manipulated
> with other keys. *Any* object - not just the writeable fields and
> default action buttons.

> I don't think I've ever read the terminology used to describe this,
> so it may use something different, but think of it like the input
> focus that we have on RISC OS. On Windows, as well as the window
> having the input focus, one control within that window will have it -
> indicated by a dotted line around the control. Press tab, and the
> *next* control is highlighted that way. Press tab again, and the next
> is highlighted, and so on. Press tab from the last control, and the
> first is highlighted.

> The best example I can think of where this is useful is in a
> database[1], where each record consists of both textual items and
> other options, and where lots of new records need to be added. If all
> of the data (including non-textual) can be entered from the keyboard,
> as well as saving the record and opening a new one, it can be input a
> lot faster than switching between mouse and keyboard where necessary.

> And, of course, *any* menu can be reached and invoked from the
> keyboard, not just those with a keyboard shortcut assigned.

> [1] And keep in mind that the term 'database' covers more things than
> just a simple flat file database of (eg) subscribers. Most notably
> (from my point of view) it also covers accounting systems, into which
> in large or busy companies there is often *lots* of information to be
> input - and having to resort to the mouse would be a great time
> waster.

But that's how databases work in RISC OS. Which one(s) don't that you know of?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 9:12:43 AM
In article <4f980aaf22nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f97b3091ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
> >    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F.
> > > Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > Either I couldn't find something that was there or you read
> > > something that wasn't there - the latter error being not at all
> > > uncommon in these groups.

> > ? Your meaning appears to have escaped your words! Clarification?

> You didn't use the term "hands down", PFJ did; yet his posts were
> asking you to elaborate on, or comment on, the "hands down" as though
> the term had been used by you when you wrote: "I'd like to publish the
> missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats the others - ".

> My guess would be that he misread your post as saying "...RO 6.10 or RO
> 5.13 beats the others hands down" in the same way as rather too many of
> the subscribers to these groups seem to read what isn't actually
> written and then persist in their errors because they can't be bothered
> to go back and check what was actually said. I could be wrong, of
> course, but if so, I do wonder why he was so insistent on you
> elaborating on the "hands down" bit.

> You get damned so often by the /honourable men/ here for the not always
> unreasonable things you do write; I'd hate to see the possibility of
> you being castigated for something you didn't.

I'm not convinced I've understood you right so if this isn't a proper answer -
sorry in advance:
The original article that this thread refers to extols the virtues of each
OS/GUI. There are areas in which virtues of the RISC OS GUI wins hands-down -
just as there are areas of Linux, Mac OS X, &c do the same. I wouldn't dream
of suggesting that RISC OS runs natively on the fastest hardware nor that it
has greatest choice of modern software - but there are areas (in particular in
the design of the GUI) where a reasonable person could claim that RISC OS is
best. In the same way as the four authors of that original article do for four
other systems.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 9:19:17 AM
In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F. Johnson
> <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> Either I couldn't find something that was there 

Correct!

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
4/30/2008 9:23:14 AM
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:52:09 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

>> What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of *windows*,
>> not the contents of filers.
> 
> Why?

Because I've already answered your question ther.

> and How?

Either use Google Groups or your own usenet client: I didn't post very 
long ago.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 10:10:27 AM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:33:16 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe <4f9806c405spam@softrock.co.uk>,
>    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> [Snippety snip]
> 
>> With Windows, when a programmer designs a window or dialogue, he can
>> set any object within that window as a 'tab stop', which means it can
>> be reached from the keyboard (using the tab key) and then manipulated
>> with other keys. *Any* object - not just the writeable fields and
>> default action buttons.
> 
> You can do this in RISC OS too. It just comes down to application design
> and how you write something to behave.

It's very difficult to change what "Enter" will do in a RISC OS dialogue: 
you'd have to change which button had the default borders, etc, which 
then causes pain because the border's part of the icon so you need to 
resize everything, etc etc etc - it becomes a chore.  Every other major 
GUI handles this for you, so the programmer doesn't have to think about 
it.  I can't think of a single RISC OS program that lets you navigate 
every dialogue widget from the keyboard.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 10:12:22 AM
On 30 Apr, 08:46, VinceH <s...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

> With Windows, when a programmer designs a window or dialogue, he can
> set any object within that window as a 'tab stop', which means it can
> be reached from the keyboard (using the tab key) and then manipulated
> with other keys. *Any* object - not just the writeable fields and
> default action buttons.

I agree this is useful functionality which adds to ease-of-use without
taking anything away (that I can think of). But, like pretty much
everything in this thread, it still comes down to personal preference.
I know about the functionality, and use it ever so often on Windows,
but I hardly find it the life-saver that you obviously do ;)

It's interesting that keyboard navigation has been present in Windows
since at least Win3.1. I assume it was always present and was included
as a migration aide for poeple upgrading to using mice! I've never
used the precurser to RISC OS - did old BBC apps have keyboard
navigation?

Adam
0
news4275 (1182)
4/30/2008 10:42:36 AM
In article <nAXRj.46595$B83.11667@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:52:09 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> >> What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of *windows*,
> >> not the contents of filers.
> > 
> > Why?

> Because I've already answered your question ther.

> > and How?

> Either use Google Groups or your own usenet client: I didn't post very 
> long ago.

I think they crossed in the post. I'm not yet convinced though.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 11:36:32 AM
In article
<0287b477-8dfa-4bd9-8025-14cbfdbf8218@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
   Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:
> It's interesting that keyboard navigation has been present in Windows
> since at least Win3.1. I assume it was always present and was included
> as a migration aide for poeple upgrading to using mice!

Before Microsoft followed the GUI route and introduced mice there were many
users who were scathing about such things. "Mice were for managers who didn't
understand computers. Real users didn't need such fripperies." I presume the
keyboard options were a sop to them.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 11:40:10 AM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:58:25 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> Are you asking about the features of RO 6.10 (if so read Qercus!) or
> questionning the description?

I'm asking in what way it is intellegent that distinguishes it from 
thumbnailing available in Windows, Mac OS X, GNOME, KDE, Xfce and ROX.

>> >> > inherited layouts, and dead easy type-setting are quite good too.
>> > 
>> >> These aren't features of an OS.
>> > 
>> > They are features of the RISC OS GUI.
> 
>> Err, how?  These are application features, and not dependant in any way
>> on the RISC OS GUI in any way.
> 
> How? I don't know how - I didn't program them. They work when you choose
> the appropriate configuration. What makes you think they aren't part of
> the GUI?

They're not part of RISC OS's GUI.  They are features of an application - 
and features that most applications for that purpose, regardless of GUI 
or OS, provide.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 12:10:44 PM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:40:10 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article
> <0287b477-8dfa-4bd9-8025-14cbfdbf8218@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>    Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:
>> It's interesting that keyboard navigation has been present in Windows
>> since at least Win3.1. I assume it was always present and was included
>> as a migration aide for poeple upgrading to using mice!
> 
> Before Microsoft followed the GUI route and introduced mice there were
> many users who were scathing about such things. "Mice were for managers
> who didn't understand computers. Real users didn't need such
> fripperies." I presume the keyboard options were a sop to them.

More importantly, Windows 1 and 2 did not require a mouse, as they were 
reasonably rare, and thus being keyboard navigable was essential - this 
is a great feature that for good reason was never removed.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 12:12:06 PM
In article <4f980f4e22john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f9806c405spam@softrock.co.uk>,
>    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

[...]

> > > Why? - and How? With the RISC OS GUI how/when would it help?

> > Being able to whiz around the contents of a window or dialogue
> > and control things from the keyboard is a great help because it's
> > a time saver if the alternative is to keep moving back between
> > keyboard and mouse.

[...]

> I can see why it's handy with Windows - but with RISC OS so much
> more can be done with the mouse.

s/more can be done/more has to be done/

It's "handy" with Windows because Windows makes it possible. It's
efficient for rapid inputting. It would be handy with RISC OS if RISC
OS made it possible - and it would be efficient for rapid inputting.

The use of the keyboard isn't making up for a defficiency, it's
providing the user with an improved user interface. Get over your
erroneous line of thought.

> You seem to want a Windows kludge (because it's needed in Windows)
> when it isn't needed for proficient use in RISC OS.

Okay, *don't* get over that erroneous line of thought - instead,
please explain to me exactly what makes it a kludge (and why it's
needed) and exactly why it isn't needed "for proficient use" in RISC
OS.

Hint: "with RISC OS so more can be done with the mouse" isn't a
reason, it's an excuse - and a self fulfilling one at that (see
above).

> We now have keyboard manipulation of the filer but I've yet to be
> convinced that much more is needed - but do try to convince me that
> it is needed *in RISC OS*.

The short answer is that applications in RISC OS, just like Windows,
presents the user with windows and dialogues that contain many types
of control/icon/gadget that said user may want to
manipulate/change/alter. Forcing the user to switch back and forth
between keyboard and mouse is anything *but* a method for proficient
use.

[...]

> > The best example I can think of where this is useful is in a
> > database[1], where each record consists of both textual items and
> > other options, and where lots of new records need to be added. If
> > all of the data (including non-textual) can be entered from the
> > keyboard, as well as saving the record and opening a new one, it
> > can be input a lot faster than switching between mouse and
> > keyboard where necessary.

> > And, of course, *any* menu can be reached and invoked from the
> > keyboard, not just those with a keyboard shortcut assigned.

[slightly excessive quoting leading up to John's response below, but
I've left it for the benefit of my response to him]

> > [1] And keep in mind that the term 'database' covers more things
> > than just a simple flat file database of (eg) subscribers. Most
> > notably (from my point of view) it also covers accounting
> > systems, into which in large or busy companies there is often
> > *lots* of information to be input - and having to resort to the
> > mouse would be a great time waster.

> But that's how databases work in RISC OS. Which one(s) don't that
> you know of?

First of all, please notice and absorb the contents of the footnote.

Second of all, in answer to your question:

I don't remember the databases I've had and used in the past enabling
full keyboard control for inputting into all types of field -
especially not ticks and options. Which ones have I had? Mostly, too
long ago and I can't remember, other than Datapower (and the one in
Fireworkz Pro, which IIRC was based on Datapower). Having said that,
since it's so long ago, I do reserve the right to be misremembering.

More recently (as in a couple of weeks ago) I downloaded Powerbase to
give that a try, and fed my users database into it (which was
previously done in Pipedream). AFAICS, there is no way to tick a tick
box (for example) from the keyboard. (You can rapidly enter a whole
raft of records if they're all text fields, since pressing return on
the last field opens a new record - but that's just one small part of
what I said).

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
4/30/2008 12:31:36 PM
In article
<0287b477-8dfa-4bd9-8025-14cbfdbf8218@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
   Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:
> On 30 Apr, 08:46, VinceH <s...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

> > With Windows, when a programmer designs a window or dialogue, he
> > can set any object within that window as a 'tab stop', which
> > means it can be reached from the keyboard (using the tab key) and
> > then manipulated with other keys. *Any* object - not just the
> > writeable fields and default action buttons.

> I agree this is useful functionality which adds to ease-of-use
> without taking anything away (that I can think of). But, like
> pretty much everything in this thread, it still comes down to
> personal preference. I know about the functionality, and use it
> ever so often on Windows, but I hardly find it the life-saver that
> you obviously do ;)

I suspect it depends on just how much time you spend doing the sort
of data entry which is both repetitive and time consuming. Doing some
of what I do on RISC OS (if the packages were even available!) would
be a time consuming nightmare.

> It's interesting that keyboard navigation has been present in
> Windows since at least Win3.1. I assume it was always present and
> was included as a migration aide for poeple upgrading to using
> mice! I've never used the precurser to RISC OS - did old BBC apps
> have keyboard navigation?

Dunno - can't remember that far back. It was more than three weeks
ago. :p

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
4/30/2008 12:31:36 PM
In article <4f980bb1bfinvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <4f9806c405spam@softrock.co.uk>,
>    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> [Snippety snip]

> > With Windows, when a programmer designs a window or dialogue, he
> > can set any object within that window as a 'tab stop', which
> > means it can be reached from the keyboard (using the tab key) and
> > then manipulated with other keys. *Any* object - not just the
> > writeable fields and default action buttons.

> You can do this in RISC OS too. It just comes down to application
> design and how you write something to behave.

Really?

I'm looking at Wimp_CreateIcon in the PRM, and the only thing I can
see that relates to keyboard control of icons is the K command, and
the important parts seem to suggest (by actually stating) that they
are for writable icons.

"...pressing Return in the icon will move the caret to the next
writable icon..."

"Pressing the up or down arrow keys will move the caret to the end of
the next writable icon."

"Pressing Tab in the icon will move the caret to the beginning of the
next writable icon..."

AFAICS, having the caret is the only thing that comes close to an
icon being selected so that it can be acted on by the keyboard - so
how does one use the keyboard to move the caret (and this sounds
nonsense because by the very nature of what the caret is, this can't
be done) 'into' an 'option' or such like.

Download SeekNLink (http://www.softrock.co.uk/products/seeknlink.html)
since that's a nice, simple example. Tell me what icon flags I need
to set so that pressing 'tab' from the 'Find' field puts me in a
position to use the keyboard to tick "Strip HTML..."

If this really is possible, without resorting to some kind of nasty
kludge, then I would very much like to add that level of keyboard
control to my work.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
4/30/2008 12:31:36 PM
In article <aCXRj.46597$B83.4466@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> I can't think of a single RISC OS program that lets you navigate
> every dialogue widget from the keyboard.

Indeed not. It must be approaching 20 years of RISC OS use now, and I
can't remember a single application from that entire period in which
it is done.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
4/30/2008 12:31:36 PM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:31:36 +0000, VinceH wrote:

> More recently (as in a couple of weeks ago) I downloaded Powerbase to
> give that a try, and fed my users database into it (which was previously
> done in Pipedream). 

Use SQLite's command line tool to manage the database >:)

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 12:36:57 PM
In article <4f981f0368spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk>
wrote:
> Hint: "with RISC OS so more can be done with the mouse" isn't a reason,
> it's an excuse - and a self fulfilling one at that (see above).

It's (at least partially) because RISC OS was built as a GUI and Windows as an
add-on to a command-line OS.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 2:34:28 PM
In article <8lZRj.89056$jH5.84681@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:58:25 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > Are you asking about the features of RO 6.10 (if so read Qercus!) or
> > questionning the description?

> I'm asking in what way it is intellegent that distinguishes it from 
> thumbnailing available in Windows, Mac OS X, GNOME, KDE, Xfce and ROX.

I've no idea. I didn't say they were. I just commented favourably on them.

> >> >> > inherited layouts, and dead easy type-setting are quite good too.
> >> > 
> >> >> These aren't features of an OS.
> >> > 
> >> > They are features of the RISC OS GUI.
> > 
> >> Err, how?  These are application features, and not dependant in any way
> >> on the RISC OS GUI in any way.
> > 
> > How? I don't know how - I didn't program them. They work when you choose
> > the appropriate configuration. What makes you think they aren't part of
> > the GUI?

> They're not part of RISC OS's GUI.  They are features of an application - 
> and features that most applications for that purpose, regardless of GUI 
> or OS, provide.

Don't load any applications at all. Just load RO 6.10. They are there as
features. How come the claim that they are not part of the RISC OS GUI?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 2:39:06 PM
In article <4f981044f2richtnews@uwclub.net>,
   Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
>    David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F. Johnson
> > <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > Either I couldn't find something that was there 

> Correct!

Meaningless! Try giving a clear response instead of just snipping one
part of an "either..."

Are you saying that John did indeed use the term "hands down"? It
certainly wasn't in the article that arrived here. If you are, then
please be a little more forthcoming and tell me just where the phrase
occurred in John's post - because I'll state again: I think PFJ read
something that wasn't there.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
4/30/2008 2:53:07 PM
In article <4f980fe76ajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f980aaf22nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
>    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <4f97b3091ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> > <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
> > >    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F.
> > > > Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > > Either I couldn't find something that was there or you read
> > > > something that wasn't there - the latter error being not at all
> > > > uncommon in these groups.

> > > ? Your meaning appears to have escaped your words! Clarification?

> > You didn't use the term "hands down", PFJ did; yet his posts were
> > asking you to elaborate on, or comment on, the "hands down" as
> > though the term had been used by you when you wrote: "I'd like to
> > publish the missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats the
> > others - ".

> > My guess would be that he misread your post as saying "...RO 6.10
> > or RO 5.13 beats the others hands down" in the same way as rather
> > too many of the subscribers to these groups seem to read what isn't
> > actually written and then persist in their errors because they
> > can't be bothered to go back and check what was actually said. I
> > could be wrong, of course, but if so, I do wonder why he was so
> > insistent on you elaborating on the "hands down" bit.

> > You get damned so often by the /honourable men/ here for the not
> > always unreasonable things you do write; I'd hate to see the
> > possibility of you being castigated for something you didn't.

> I'm not convinced I've understood you right so if this isn't a proper
> answer - sorry in advance: The original article that this thread
> refers to extols the virtues of each OS/GUI. There are areas in which
> virtues of the RISC OS GUI wins hands-down - just as there are areas
> of Linux, Mac OS X, &c do the same. I wouldn't dream of suggesting
> that RISC OS runs natively on the fastest hardware nor that it has
> greatest choice of modern software - but there are areas (in
> particular in the design of the GUI) where a reasonable person could
> claim that RISC OS is best. In the same way as the four authors of
> that original article do for four other systems.

I didn't read the article but I did read your original post. Although
you now say that 'There are areas in which virtues of the RISC OS GUI
wins 'hands-down"', in your original post, you did not use the term
"hands-down", yet PFJ's posts imply that you did. Simple really; and
I'm surprised you have trouble understanding such a facile point.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
4/30/2008 2:54:20 PM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:39:06 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <8lZRj.89056$jH5.84681@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:58:25 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> 
>> > Are you asking about the features of RO 6.10 (if so read Qercus!) or
>> > questionning the description?
> 
>> I'm asking in what way it is intellegent that distinguishes it from
>> thumbnailing available in Windows, Mac OS X, GNOME, KDE, Xfce and ROX.
> 
> I've no idea. I didn't say they were. I just commented favourably on
> them.

You suggested them in a question about how RISC OS beat the competition 
hands down.  Did you misunderstand Paul's question?

> Don't load any applications at all. Just load RO 6.10. They are there as
> features. How come the claim that they are not part of the RISC OS GUI?

If you can't recognise the semantic difference between a GUI feature and 
an application feature, I don't feel you're qualified to comment on what 
features make a good GUI.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 3:33:53 PM
In article <4f982e7889nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f981044f2richtnews@uwclub.net>,
>    Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
> >    David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F. Johnson
> > > <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > Either I couldn't find something that was there 

> > Correct!

> Meaningless! Try giving a clear response instead of just snipping one
> part of an "either..."

> Are you saying that John did indeed use the term "hands down"? It
> certainly wasn't in the article that arrived here. If you are, then
> please be a little more forthcoming and tell me just where the phrase
> occurred in John's post - because I'll state again: I think PFJ read
> something that wasn't there.

PFJ played Devil's Advocate (he claimed that openly) and so exaggerated my
neutral request. I have no problems with his moving the discussion further
than I originally asked. Is it important? [If it is I'm failing to understand
why/how].

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 3:34:01 PM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:34:28 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <4f981f0368spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> Hint: "with RISC OS so more can be done with the mouse" isn't a reason,
>> it's an excuse - and a self fulfilling one at that (see above).
> 
> It's (at least partially) because RISC OS was built as a GUI and Windows
> as an add-on to a command-line OS.

What nonsense.  Both systems are GUIs built on top of a command line-
based OS.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 3:35:09 PM
In article <4f981f0368spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f980f4e22john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> > You seem to want a Windows kludge (because it's needed in Windows)
> > when it isn't needed for proficient use in RISC OS.

> Okay, *don't* get over that erroneous line of thought - instead,
> please explain to me exactly what makes it a kludge (and why it's
> needed) and exactly why it isn't needed "for proficient use" in RISC
> OS.

> Hint: "with RISC OS so more can be done with the mouse" isn't a
> reason, it's an excuse - and a self fulfilling one at that (see
> above).

> > We now have keyboard manipulation of the filer but I've yet to be
> > convinced that much more is needed - but do try to convince me that
> > it is needed *in RISC OS*.

> The short answer is that applications in RISC OS, just like Windows,
> presents the user with windows and dialogues that contain many types
> of control/icon/gadget that said user may want to
> manipulate/change/alter. Forcing the user to switch back and forth
> between keyboard and mouse is anything *but* a method for proficient
> use.

[Snip]

It seems to me that the real difference in this regard between RISC OS
and OSs such as Windows, MacOS, etc., is that the latter set were
designed (Ha!) to be single-task/task-switching where keyboard control
- with all the necessary human-memory overheads of having dozens of key
commands & shortcuts - developed from the early pre-desktop model days
(says he remembering WordStar & its 5-second screen refresh), whereas
RISC OS was from its incept designed to be as truly multitasking and an
emulation of real hands-on work: E.g. to get a file, you go to the
cabinet and look through the drawers, then manually take it to your
desk; the pointer mimics your hand. You do not press a few keys on your
typewriter to get a file magically appearing in front of you.

Of course, using only the keyboard and not having to take your hands
off it to use a mouse or trackpad will often be much slicker, provided
you remember all the correct key presses, but it certainly isn't as
flexible.

One of the sorts of problems which it tends to generate and which I
come up against from time to time on the Mac is that of the dialogue
box which obscures the window I need to reference in order to fill it
in - either that or the window to which the dialogue box pertains
obscures another window I need to see. Can I move the dialogue box? No
way, it's stuck in place? Can I move its parent window? No. Can I bring
the reference window to the front? No. All I can do is quit the
dialogue box, then rearrange the windows and reopen the box - all of
which takes quite a bit of mouse movement. Others have written about
the model for Windows being that of the single screen-filling window
where full keyboard access makes sense but that, as far as I'm
concerned, is a weakness as much, if not more, than a strength: when
was the last time you you were working with real paper, booklets,
books, etc., on a real desktop? Did you always bring one sheet to the
top, and never reference others at the same time?

One other thing is the use of "muscle-memory". Using the keyboard might
be quicker but it's like being the boss in the centre of the office
with underlings fetching and carrying your files. As long as you
remember the file names correctly, you're probably okay but you don't
really have the foggiest idea whereabouts they are in your system.
Using the pointer to physically move things around is akin to getting
up and physically shifting the files to and from your desk.
Psychologically, you have a much better overall feel for the system and
memory of the locations.

Having said that, the need to use a mouse to navigate when filling in a
db, or any form, can be a bit of a pain.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
4/30/2008 3:37:40 PM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:37:40 +0100, David wrote:

> It seems to me that the real difference in this regard between RISC OS
> and OSs such as Windows, MacOS, etc., is that the latter set were
> designed (Ha!) to be single-task/task-switching where keyboard control -
> with all the necessary human-memory overheads of having dozens of key
> commands & shortcuts - developed from the early pre-desktop model days
> (says he remembering WordStar & its 5-second screen refresh), whereas
> RISC OS was from its incept designed to be as truly multitasking

Actually, it's quite the opposite.  Windows has always been a multi-
tasking environment (if you exclude the single-task "runtime" versions 
bundled with apps in the very very early days to allow people to run 
Windows programs without Windows.).  RISC OS had multitasking added to it 
as an afterthought: Arthur didn't support multitasking WIMP apps, and the 
API was hacked in RISC OS 2 to allow support for them.

B.


0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 3:49:29 PM
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4f981f0368spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > Hint: "with RISC OS so more can be done with the mouse" isn't a
> > reason, it's an excuse - and a self fulfilling one at that (see
> > above).
> 
> It's (at least partially) because RISC OS was built as a GUI and Windows
> as an add-on to a command-line OS.

You obviously don't remember Arthur then - a very rudimentary GUI.

Windows was hardly an add-on to DOS, although DOS was underneath it - the
same as pressing Return on RISC OS and using the command line prompt.

The problem is that a lot of RISC OS users who turn to Windows don't know
just how capable Windows is. They don't look past the limited things they
can do in a RISC OS window.

Mind you, drag and drop on the Windows filing system would be very
welcome.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/30/2008 4:05:22 PM
In article <Bj0Sj.89075$jH5.59684@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:39:06 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > In article <8lZRj.89056$jH5.84681@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
> >    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:58:25 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> > 
> >> > Are you asking about the features of RO 6.10 (if so read Qercus!) or
> >> > questionning the description?
> > 
> >> I'm asking in what way it is intellegent that distinguishes it from
> >> thumbnailing available in Windows, Mac OS X, GNOME, KDE, Xfce and ROX.
> > 
> > I've no idea. I didn't say they were. I just commented favourably on
> > them.

> You suggested them in a question about how RISC OS beat the competition 
> hands down.  Did you misunderstand Paul's question?

I added them as an afterthought. Go and look.

> > Don't load any applications at all. Just load RO 6.10. They are there as
> > features. How come the claim that they are not part of the RISC OS GUI?

> If you can't recognise the semantic difference between a GUI feature and 
> an application feature, I don't feel you're qualified to comment on what 
> features make a good GUI.

Feel free to explain. Don't feel free to insult without an explanation of what
you are talking about. I may well be wrong - but I don't see where. And BTW 
try reading my initial enquiry and see how your intended insult doesn't fit:

"I'd like to publish the missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats the
others - and send a copy of the published piece to the editor of PC Advisor.
If anyone wants to add their contribution to those of Michael DeAgonia,
Preston Gralla, David Ramel, and James Turner then please get in touch with
me."

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 4:27:11 PM
In article <4f98323739john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f982e7889nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
>    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <4f981044f2richtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
> >    <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
> > >    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F.
> > > > Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > > Either I couldn't find something that was there 

> > > Correct!

> > Meaningless! Try giving a clear response instead of just snipping
> > one part of an "either..."

> > Are you saying that John did indeed use the term "hands down"? It
> > certainly wasn't in the article that arrived here. If you are, then
> > please be a little more forthcoming and tell me just where the
> > phrase occurred in John's post - because I'll state again: I think
> > PFJ read something that wasn't there.

> PFJ played Devil's Advocate (he claimed that openly) and so
> exaggerated my neutral request. I have no problems with his moving
> the discussion further than I originally asked. Is it important? [If
> it is I'm failing to understand why/how].

Had he simply asked for your response as to whether RO could beat the
others hands down - or even "hands down" (i.e. stressing the extent of
the besting) -, I'd have read it as his words. However, he asked you to
elaborate on "the hands down part", which implied your own use of the
phrase.

Is it important? Not if you aren't bothered about folk putting words
into your mouth and going on to damn you for something you haven't
actually said. I find that letting things like that go by without
comment all too often come back to bite you later; I'd not be surprised
to read sometime in the future a reference to the claim by JC that
<quote> RO 6.10 and RO 5.13 beat Linux, Mac OS X, Vista and XP hands
down <unquote>.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
4/30/2008 4:36:57 PM
In article <dy0Sj.89078$jH5.24232@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:37:40 +0100, David wrote:

> > It seems to me that the real difference in this regard between RISC
> > OS and OSs such as Windows, MacOS, etc., is that the latter set
> > were designed (Ha!) to be single-task/task-switching where keyboard
> > control - with all the necessary human-memory overheads of having
> > dozens of key commands & shortcuts - developed from the early
> > pre-desktop model days (says he remembering WordStar & its 5-second
> > screen refresh), whereas RISC OS was from its incept designed to be
> > as truly multitasking

> Actually, it's quite the opposite.  Windows has always been a multi-
> tasking environment (if you exclude the single-task "runtime"
> versions bundled with apps in the very very early days to allow
> people to run Windows programs without Windows.).  RISC OS had
> multitasking added to it as an afterthought: Arthur didn't support
> multitasking WIMP apps, and the API was hacked in RISC OS 2 to allow
> support for them.

I really don't know Windows very well. It might be multi-tasking except
for the fact that it's a bit difficult to actually multi-task on it.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
4/30/2008 4:39:29 PM
In message <4YjSj.311$EH2.65@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>
          Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> 
> > Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> > mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first;
> > and a disability inability to see a pointer
> 
> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing
> disabled  people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his
> experience in this  area.

Here's one that 'JC' could try - turn off his monitor - and then try
and send a email to this news group.

-- 
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK
0
cferris (978)
4/30/2008 4:46:01 PM
John Cartmell wrote:

> "I'd like to publish the missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats
> the others"

And as yet, there has been nothing about the OS. Bits about the surrounding
GUI and applications (which really aren't that earth shattering), but
nothing about the OS.

Based on this thread, I think the missing essays will be very short
indeed....

TTFN

Paul
-- 
Sie k�nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei� machen!
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
paul84 (611)
4/30/2008 4:57:51 PM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:39:29 +0100, David wrote:

> I really don't know Windows very well. It might be multi-tasking except
> for the fact that it's a bit difficult to actually multi-task on it.

I've never found that.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
4/30/2008 4:59:51 PM
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> 
> I really don't know Windows very well. It might be multi-tasking except
> for the fact that it's a bit difficult to actually multi-task on it.

Why? Which applications do you find difficult to multitask?

I can honestly say that multitasking is not a problem I have evr had using
Windows from Windows 95 through to Vista. I often have Gemini, Word,
Excel, Finale and EmEditor running at the same time.

Since I bought a 22" widescreen monitor, it's been a lot easier arranging
the various windows on the desk so that I can jump between them.

One problem I had with RISC OS was processor hungry applications stopping
other apps from working at more than a crawl. It doesn't appear to be a
problem with Windows. I'm not sure how the Iyonix has improved matters as
I've never used one.

Perhaps if you indicate the problems you have multitasking others can give
you advbice.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/30/2008 5:04:50 PM
In article <gemini.k05dvu001tc6u0320.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray
Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> > 
> > I really don't know Windows very well. It might be multi-tasking
> > except for the fact that it's a bit difficult to actually
> > multi-task on it.

> Why? Which applications do you find difficult to multitask?

> I can honestly say that multitasking is not a problem I have evr had
> using Windows from Windows 95 through to Vista. I often have Gemini,
> Word, Excel, Finale and EmEditor running at the same time.

Oh, they'll 'run' at the same time but it's not so easy to use apps in
combination; the whole concept (as someone else mentioned above) of
Windows and the others OSs works best as task-switching with windows
expanded to full screen.

> Since I bought a 22" widescreen monitor, it's been a lot easier
> arranging the various windows on the desk so that I can jump between
> them.

No so easy on smaller monitors when large windows jumping to the front
when you want to write a simple comment in a small space at the bottom
totally obscure a smaller window in which you're either doing your main
work or which you need to see because you're referencing them visually
(e.g. photos).

> One problem I had with RISC OS was processor hungry applications
> stopping other apps from working at more than a crawl. It doesn't
> appear to be a problem with Windows. I'm not sure how the Iyonix has
> improved matters as I've never used one.

That's down mainly to the comparatively slow processor speed, and to
the apps themselves not respecting the co-operate multitasking model.

> Perhaps if you indicate the problems you have multitasking others can
> give you advbice.

I don't have any problems whatsoever with Windows: I don't use it. I
do, however, have problems multitasking on the Mac (Mini, Tiger), the
main one, which I've already mentioned, being dialogue boxes locking up
the desktop until they're quit. Are you telling me that this sort of
thing never happens on Windows?

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
4/30/2008 6:43:20 PM
In article <gemini.k05bfk00j5zp600po.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <4f981f0368spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> > > Hint: "with RISC OS so more can be done with the mouse" isn't a
> > > reason, it's an excuse - and a self fulfilling one at that (see
> > > above).
> > 
> > It's (at least partially) because RISC OS was built as a GUI and Windows
> > as an add-on to a command-line OS.

> You obviously don't remember Arthur then - a very rudimentary GUI.

I do! ;-)

> Windows was hardly an add-on to DOS, although DOS was underneath it - the
> same as pressing Return on RISC OS and using the command line prompt.

It was very clearly seen as a shell for WIMPS ( ;-) and, IIRC, designed in
that way. For quite some time many experienced users ignored the GUI.

> The problem is that a lot of RISC OS users who turn to Windows don't know
> just how capable Windows is. They don't look past the limited things they
> can do in a RISC OS window.

> Mind you, drag and drop on the Windows filing system would be very
> welcome.

And more. I did not intend an advocacy fight - rather a statement of what it
was about RISC OS that made it good on the lines of the other claims in that
article that I referred to.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 6:53:57 PM
In article <4f9837fa24nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > PFJ played Devil's Advocate (he claimed that openly) and so
> > exaggerated my neutral request. I have no problems with his moving
> > the discussion further than I originally asked. Is it important? [If
> > it is I'm failing to understand why/how].

> Had he simply asked for your response as to whether RO could beat the
> others hands down - or even "hands down" (i.e. stressing the extent of
> the besting) -, I'd have read it as his words. However, he asked you to
> elaborate on "the hands down part", which implied your own use of the
> phrase.

Thanks. I hadn't given that importance because I knew PFJ didn't mean it
maliciously and wouldn't misuseany reply.

> Is it important? Not if you aren't bothered about folk putting words
> into your mouth and going on to damn you for something you haven't
> actually said. I find that letting things like that go by without
> comment all too often come back to bite you later; I'd not be surprised
> to read sometime in the future a reference to the claim by JC that
> <quote> RO 6.10 and RO 5.13 beat Linux, Mac OS X, Vista and XP hands
> down <unquote>.

I'm sure that will happen in any case! ;-))

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 7:22:20 PM
In article <6481d$4818a50d$9553@news.teranews.com>,
   Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
> John Cartmell wrote:

> > "I'd like to publish the missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats
> > the others"

> And as yet, there has been nothing about the OS. Bits about the surrounding
> GUI and applications (which really aren't that earth shattering), but
> nothing about the OS.

> Based on this thread, I think the missing essays will be very short
> indeed....

Have you read the original article? ;-)

I hadn't intended to make the title any more technically correct than how it's
used in the original PC Advisor article where they discuss applications as
part of the OS...

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 7:26:50 PM
In article <gemini.k05dvu001tc6u0320.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray Dawson
<ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm not sure how the Iyonix has improved matters as I've never used one.

The question is about what RO 5.13 and RO 6.10 do well. If you have neither...

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 7:29:24 PM
In article <4f982cc384john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f981f0368spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk>
> wrote:

> > Hint: "with RISC OS so more can be done with the mouse" isn't a
> > reason, it's an excuse - and a self fulfilling one at that (see
> > above).

> It's (at least partially) because RISC OS was built as a GUI and
> Windows as an add-on to a command-line OS.

Which claim completely fails to provide the explanation I requested.
To reiterate that request:

Starting with the context: It's about being able to use the keyboard
to navigate through the icons in a window/dialogue, and to alter
their contents and the way they are set (eg ticking a tick box, etc).
It's a feature which greatly aids the user, allowing much quicker
data entry or dialogue completion, since it takes away the need to
switch between keyboard and mouse - which would be so regardless of
the OS/GUI in use, if the OS/GUI provides this option (giving those
that do an advantage over those that don't).

You call it a 'kludge' and state that it's /necessary/ in Windows,
and unnecessary "for proficient use" in RISC OS. I'd like to hear a
full explanation for these claims.

Noting that you snipped the database discussion with no further
comment (and, as usual, no indication that you've actually snipped
anything at all), I can only assume that you've realised you were
wrong and that the level of control talked about is *not* available
in RISC OS databases.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
4/30/2008 8:20:03 PM
In message <gemini.k05dvu001tc6u0320.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>
          Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

>> 
>> I really don't know Windows very well. It might be multi-tasking except
>> for the fact that it's a bit difficult to actually multi-task on it.

> Why? Which applications do you find difficult to multitask?

> I can honestly say that multitasking is not a problem I have evr had using
> Windows from Windows 95 through to Vista. I often have Gemini, Word,
> Excel, Finale and EmEditor running at the same time.

And at least with Windows they multitask properly. More than once I've 
run a Datapower database and, forgetting I'm not using Windows, tried 
to make use of the 15 seconds or so it takes to start up to do 
something useful. The database window then opens where I thought I was 
clicking on another app and I find I've just deleted an important 
record or sent an email to someone I shouldn't.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents
0
spamhater1 (1060)
4/30/2008 9:11:26 PM
In article <4f98471e30john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Had he simply asked for your response as to whether RO could beat the
> > others hands down - or even "hands down" (i.e. stressing the extent of
> > the besting) -, I'd have read it as his words. However, he asked you to
> > elaborate on "the hands down part", which implied your own use of the
> > phrase.

> Thanks. I hadn't given that importance because I knew PFJ didn't mean it
> maliciously and wouldn't misuse any reply.

BTW Did you notice that Paul was quoting from the article when he said "hands
down"?

In any case - many thanks!
But I'll still get "JC threat to civilisation as we know it" scares from
certain quarters. ;-))

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 10:03:46 PM
In article <4f984bb571spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f982cc384john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4f981f0368spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk>
> > wrote:

> > > Hint: "with RISC OS so more can be done with the mouse" isn't a
> > > reason, it's an excuse - and a self fulfilling one at that (see
> > > above).

> > It's (at least partially) because RISC OS was built as a GUI and
> > Windows as an add-on to a command-line OS.

> Which claim completely fails to provide the explanation I requested.
> To reiterate that request:

> Starting with the context: It's about being able to use the keyboard
> to navigate through the icons in a window/dialogue, and to alter
> their contents and the way they are set (eg ticking a tick box, etc).
> It's a feature which greatly aids the user, allowing much quicker
> data entry or dialogue completion, since it takes away the need to
> switch between keyboard and mouse - which would be so regardless of
> the OS/GUI in use, if the OS/GUI provides this option (giving those
> that do an advantage over those that don't).

I realise what it's about and why you may find it of help. I don't agree that
it would be such a great aid for most users - and RISC OS databases do allow
much that is needed in that context.

> You call it a 'kludge' and state that it's /necessary/ in Windows,
> and unnecessary "for proficient use" in RISC OS. I'd like to hear a
> full explanation for these claims.

Read Sendu's articles from Acorn User some time back. A full explanation is
too much to repeat here.

> Noting that you snipped the database discussion with no further
> comment (and, as usual, no indication that you've actually snipped
> anything at all), I can only assume that you've realised you were
> wrong and that the level of control talked about is *not* available
> in RISC OS databases.

I accept that your needs and preferences differ. You could not possibly do
with Windows what I find to be proficient use of RISC OS. As the thread is
about what can be said for RISC OS, your repeating of Windows advantages is
off-thread and (arguably) off topic for the group. I didn't intend to hide
your "Un point pour Fenetres".

Yes that is *meant* to be bad Franglais!! ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/30/2008 10:11:34 PM
On 30 Apr, John Cartmell  wrote in message
  <4f980f4e22john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:

> In article <4f9806c405spam@softrock.co.uk>,
>    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Being able to whiz around the contents of a window or dialogue and
> > control things from the keyboard is a great help because it's a time
> > saver if the alternative is to keep moving back between keyboard and
> > mouse.
> 
> > It's not so bad where there *everything* in the window is done from
> > the keyboard (eg all writeable icons) or *everything* in the window
> > requires the mouse (eg all options) because you don't switch back and
> > forth - but neither extreme is the case for all windows, all dialogue
> > boxes.
> 
> I can see why it's handy with Windows - but with RISC OS so much more
> can be done with the mouse.

....assuming that a mouse is a practical option.  The keyboard manipulation
of windows and their contents comes into its own where the use of a mouse
is impractical or impossible: laptops and computers with restricted space
around them are obvious examples.  There are a number of PCs at work that
I regularly drive 'mouseless', because using a mouse would require a
delicate balancing act.

That isn't a deficiency of Windows.  It's providing the choice to use the
machine in the most appropriate way for its surroundings.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/30/2008 10:45:05 PM
In article <5654b8974f.noreply@chiemgau-net.de>, Alex' A. Interrants
<ausserstorfer@mail.com> wrote:
> In der Nachricht <4f9718b435editor@qercus.com> Qercus editor
>           <editor@qercus.com> hat geschrieben:

> > PC Advisor have published a piece about the best operating systems:
> > Linux, Mac OS X, Vista, and XP. Of course they have had to include two
> > Windows versions because so many people are rejecting Vista.

> Internet Explorer? 

Wash your mouth out! ;)

> Firefox?

Um... so Peter hasn't done enough for you? I'll even admit to now having a
(somewhat slow and occasionally unsteady) version on my RPC. Not bad
going, IMHO.

However, this is supposed to be a comparison of operating systems, not of
applications, unless you fell for that old Microsoft saw of the internet
web browser being an integral part of the system, which it doesn't have to
be. 

Then again, you have to be careful not to fall into the trap of mistaking
brand for function. A Mac, for example, is less likely to use IE where it
is more likely to use Safari, or a Linux user might use Konqueror, where
I'll tend to use Oregano but each does a similar job under similar
circumstances. Each is a browser, each has features that the other might
not have, but that isn't necessarily the fault of the OS. If you were to
say that RISC OS cannot run a browser at all through some functional
deficiency, then I'd say that you had an argument here.

That isn't to say that RISC OS doesn't have functional deficiencies, but
pointing the finger at a couple of brand names isn't identifying
deficiencies.

-- 
 //\  // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
//  \//  Mitsuo... Menda... naha naha...

.... He's a potato Jim!, Let's gouge out all of his eyes
0
miyuki1 (1402)
4/30/2008 10:51:31 PM
In article <4f98569bbfjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f984bb571spam@softrock.co.uk>,
>    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

[...]

> > Starting with the context: It's about being able to use the
> > keyboard to navigate through the icons in a window/dialogue, and
> > to alter their contents and the way they are set (eg ticking a
> > tick box, etc). It's a feature which greatly aids the user,
> > allowing much quicker data entry or dialogue completion, since it
> > takes away the need to switch between keyboard and mouse - which
> > would be so regardless of the OS/GUI in use, if the OS/GUI
> > provides this option (giving those that do an advantage over
> > those that don't).

> I realise what it's about and why you may find it of help. I don't
> agree that it would be such a great aid for most users

Why? *Why* don't you think most users would benefit from being able
to use the keyboard in this way, instead of toing and froing between
mouse and keyboard?

> - and RISC OS databases do allow much that is needed in that
> context.

A claim which leads to several interesting points.

1) "much that is needed in that context" - so it's needed now, eh?

2) If RISC OS databases do this - even much is better than none -
please tell me *which* RISC OS database(s) do this.

3) *Why* do they do this, if it's just a kludge on Windows, and
unnecessary for proficient use on RISC OS?

4) *How* do they do this, given that AFAICS, the standard mechanism
for creating icons doesn't appear to support keyboard control of
anything other than writable icons? (Default action buttons are
handled separately, not by the icon settings). Do they disregard the
facilities provided by RISC OS and roll their own?

> > You call it a 'kludge' and state that it's /necessary/ in
> > Windows, and unnecessary "for proficient use" in RISC OS. I'd
> > like to hear a full explanation for these claims.

> Read Sendu's articles from Acorn User some time back. A full
> explanation is too much to repeat here.

No - quite apart from the fact that I no longer have any old issues
of AU, you are the one making the claims in the here and now so you
back them up in that same here, and its associated now.

> > Noting that you snipped the database discussion with no further
> > comment (and, as usual, no indication that you've actually
> > snipped anything at all), I can only assume that you've realised
> > you were wrong and that the level of control talked about is
> > *not* available in RISC OS databases.

> I accept that your needs and preferences differ. You could not
> possibly do with Windows what I find to be proficient use of RISC
> OS.

What a startlingly pointless and irrelevant attempt to prove a
non-point.

It would be damned easy to make such a claim true by deliberately
choosing a subject I have no knowledge of or interest in; which is
probably most of what you do. I can make exactly the same claim, and
win using the same 'cheat' - and that's without taking into account
the speedier window navigation.

There probably is some cross-over (eg accounts and customer
databases), and I can assure you that not only would I be able to do
what you do in those areas, but I would be massively more proficient
than you.

> As the thread is about what can be said for RISC OS, your
> repeating of Windows advantages is off-thread and (arguably) off
> topic for the group.

You seemed happy to engage in this discussion when you thought you
might be able to bluff your way to justifying your claims. However,
any problem with it being off-topic is easily fixed: Followups are
set to comp.sys.acorn.advocacy

[...]

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
4/30/2008 11:09:12 PM
On 30 Apr 2008 VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f97d67dcejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <xoNRj.1297$WA5.886@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
>>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> [Rob was actually referring to Gnome judging by the quoting, but I'm
> going to refer to Windows because it's what I know, both from a
> programming and using basis]

>>> What I've already mentioned in this thread - manipulation of
>>> *windows*, not the contents of filers.

>> Why? - and How? With the RISC OS GUI how/when would it help?

> Being able to whiz around the contents of a window or dialogue and
> control things from the keyboard is a great help because it's a time
> saver if the alternative is to keep moving back between keyboard and
> mouse.

There's also the issue of accessibility. We are all living longer and 
if you want to still be using computers when you are older, with 
failing eyesite and dexterity issues, a keyboard is essential as you
may not be able to see a mouse pointer or control a mouse sufficently 
well.

> With Windows, when a programmer designs a window or dialogue, he can
> set any object within that window as a 'tab stop', which means it can
> be reached from the keyboard (using the tab key) and then manipulated
> with other keys. *Any* object - not just the writeable fields and
> default action buttons.

> I don't think I've ever read the terminology used to describe this,
> so it may use something different, but think of it like the input
> focus that we have on RISC OS. On Windows, as well as the window
> having the input focus, one control within that window will have it -
> indicated by a dotted line around the control. Press tab, and the
> *next* control is highlighted that way. Press tab again, and the next
> is highlighted, and so on. Press tab from the last control, and the
> first is highlighted.

Yes its an input focus, so there is a always current position on the 
screen which can receive keyboard commands to activate the control or 
move to between controls, and is the reference point for audio 
descritions from Screen Reader programs which can allow you to use
a computer very productively with no vision at all.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
4/30/2008 11:34:53 PM
In message <4f98d361e8steve@revi11.plus.com>
          "Ste (news)" <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:

> In article <4f98cae20djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <gemini.k07cfo00kr1se024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
> >    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> If all icons had a bit of associated text (like alt text for images
> in HTML) then that could be used. Basically, my starting for thinking
> about this would be some sort of !Help and !Speak collaboration.
> 

There is a program !SayHelp by Martin Carradus 1.00 (7 May 2006)
that uses !Speak module.

A speaking version of a !BubbleHlp App.

-- 
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK
0
cferris (978)
4/30/2008 11:54:47 PM
On 30 Apr 2008 John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <Bj0Sj.89075$jH5.59684@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> If you can't recognise the semantic difference between a GUI feature and
>> an application feature, I don't feel you're qualified to comment on what
>> features make a good GUI.

> Feel free to explain. Don't feel free to insult without an explanation
> of what you are talking about. I may well be wrong - but I don't see
> where. And BTW try reading my initial enquiry and see how your
> intended insult doesn't fit:

Fit this one:-

Basically John, its patently obvious to everyone except yourself, that 
you don't have the first fucking clue as to what constitutes an OS, a 
GUI or an application.

Your vast number of posts blindly advocacing anything related to
RISC OS regardless of mert or uniqueness, and even criticism of 
features (such as full keyboard support) universally acknowledged to 
be essential, just because they aren't in RISC OS, makes us all look 
pathetic.

Its got to the stage where its professional suicide to post here under 
an identifiable name, in case a current or future employer finds this 
in a search and associates one with such a hopeless fuckwit.

---druck
0
news5843 (7461)
5/1/2008 12:02:54 AM
In der Nachricht <4f985a4542miyuki@no.spam.here>
          Chika <miyuki@spam-no-way.invalid> hat geschrieben:

>> > PC Advisor have published a piece about the best operating systems:
>> > Linux, Mac OS X, Vista, and XP. Of course they have had to include two
>> > Windows versions because so many people are rejecting Vista.
> 
>> Internet Explorer?
> 
> Wash your mouth out! ;)
> 
>> Firefox?

[total wrong interpretation of just two words]

Who needs an OS today if nearby everything runs via the webbrowser. 
This was my meaning. I believe that futuristic computers must be 
online around the clock because they aren't useable without it! You 
won't need an OS, you'll just need a webbrowser. This will be the 
future. The reason for this is, that the companies and governments can 
check you everytime.

The here described war is out-of-time. Most people know how to use the 
webbrowser of their computers and nothing else more. So they send 
emails over webpages, write textes via homepages etc.

The world of webbrowsers are the really OSes for people today.

Cheers,

A.

-- 
Venusberg, Upper Bavaria
British A7000+ (computer) running RISC OS 4.39 Adjust (OS)
Portrait & email: http://home.chiemgau-net.de/ausserstorfer/
0
5/1/2008 4:52:16 AM
In article <4f982e7889nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f981044f2richtnews@uwclub.net>,
>    Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
> >    David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F. Johnson
> > > <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > Either I couldn't find something that was there 

> > Correct!

> Meaningless! Try giving a clear response instead of just snipping one
> part of an "either..."

You are quite right. Not helpful and, indeed, incorrect.

I was quite convinced that JC had used the words 'hands-down', but checking
back I find I was wrong :-(

My apologies.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/1/2008 7:54:02 AM
In article <35ce60984f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
   druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> Its got to the stage where its professional suicide

Then commit suicide quickly and get out of our hair or stop posting such
obnoxious comments. Your choice.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 12:03:25 PM
In article <4f985b3976spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> you are the one making the claims in the here

I'm actually asking for answers. Any more is incidental and asking for a
detailed explanation of a comment said in passing is asking too much. Sorry.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
John
5/1/2008 12:05:48 PM
In article <6bae59984f.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>,
   Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> > I can see why it's handy with Windows - but with RISC OS so much more
> > can be done with the mouse.

> ...assuming that a mouse is a practical option.  The keyboard manipulation
> of windows and their contents comes into its own where the use of a mouse
> is impractical or impossible: laptops and computers with restricted space
> around them are obvious examples.  There are a number of PCs at work that
> I regularly drive 'mouseless', because using a mouse would require a
> delicate balancing act.

> That isn't a deficiency of Windows.  It's providing the choice to use the
> machine in the most appropriate way for its surroundings.

Cross-purposes?
I was meaning that the differences in keyboard control (between Windows and
RISC OS) happened because of the circumstances as each was developed. Windows
arrived on the back of a keyboard based system - that people had been
operating using keyboard only - and had a very poor GUI. RISC machines arrived
with a GUI and the first concern was to improve that GUI - not add keyboard
short-cuts. When RISC OS arrived it was good; much better than Windows.

That meant that RISC OS worked well without all those keyboard shortcuts. The
demand for them wasn't loud - or at least not loud enough for Acorn.

Now the filer has keyboard shortcuts and I find some of them great - though I
doubt I'll use them all. A week ago not having them might have been a
comparative strong point for another system. Now it isn't. What I'm not
convinced about - and I asked about - was keyboard control of windows. Druck
tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a mouse - but surely an
inability to use a keyboard would come first; and a disability inability to
see a pointer - but aren't there utilities to change the pointer into a
larger, flashing affair? As PFJ did further up the thread, I'm playing devil's
advocate: if there is a good reason for keyboard control of windows then can't
the case be made? But that really is wayout thread drift as the discussion
should be about what makes RISC OS good now. Perhaps another thread if someone
is interested?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 12:20:46 PM
Hi,

John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <6481d$4818a50d$9553@news.teranews.com>,
>    Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

>> Based on this thread, I think the missing essays will be very short
>> indeed....
> 
> Have you read the original article? ;-)

I have now. I think you could probably get away with "Duh, we have nice
icons and a purdy mousey thing" and it would fit in well....

TTFN

Paul

-- 
Sie k�nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei� machen!
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
paul84 (611)
5/1/2008 12:41:11 PM
In article <4f98a2fd43john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f985b3976spam@softrock.co.uk>,
>    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> > you are the one making the claims in the here

"...and now"

> I'm actually asking for answers. Any more is incidental and asking
> for a detailed explanation of a comment said in passing is asking too
> much. Sorry.

I never saw the start of this, but the subject sounds intriguing.  I
might suggest Jack Nicolson's approach as the US President in "Mars
Attacks" -- 'Why can't we all just get along?"

-- 
John Ward in Medway, Kent - using RISC OS since 1987
Now using an Iyonix, an A9home, 2 RiscPCs and Virtual-RPC!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
John
5/1/2008 1:28:49 PM
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Now the filer has keyboard shortcuts and I find some of them great -
> though I doubt I'll use them all. A week ago not having them might have
> been a comparative strong point for another system. Now it isn't. What
> I'm not convinced about - and I asked about - was keyboard control of
> windows. Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
> a disability inability to see a pointer 

You really are an ignorant twat. Most VIPs have full motor skills and can
use a keyboard, but not see the screen very well. Having keypresses to use
vastly improves their ability to navigate the screen.

Which is why they would never consider RISC OS.

> - but aren't there utilities to change the pointer into a larger,
> flashing affair?

I know how to find them in Windows - under Accessibility - can you please
tell me where they are hidden in RISC OS?

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/1/2008 1:38:35 PM
On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
> a disability inability to see a pointer

Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled 
people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his experience in this 
area.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/1/2008 1:54:08 PM
On May 1, 2:54 pm, Rob Kendrick <n...@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> > mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
> > a disability inability to see a pointer
>
> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled
> people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his experience in this
> area.

Please try to remember who you're replying to.
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/1/2008 2:24:58 PM
On Thu, 01 May 2008 07:24:58 -0700, VinceH wrote:

> Please try to remember who you're replying to.

You're correct of course.  It won't happen again.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/1/2008 2:33:44 PM
On May 1, 1:02=EF=BF=BDam, druck <n...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:

> Its got to the stage where its professional suicide to post here under
> an identifiable name, in case a current or future employer finds this
> in a search and associates one with such a hopeless f*ckwit.

For heavens sake can you please give it up. It's quite clear
that you are no longer interested in RISC OS. So, if you
want to be abusive can you please do it elsewhere.

Aaron

0
atimbrell (584)
5/1/2008 2:59:06 PM
In article <gemini.k06zf100apg6t024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > Now the filer has keyboard shortcuts and I find some of them great -
> > though I doubt I'll use them all. A week ago not having them might have
> > been a comparative strong point for another system. Now it isn't. What
> > I'm not convinced about - and I asked about - was keyboard control of
> > windows. Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> > mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
> > a disability inability to see a pointer 

> You really are an ignorant twat. Most VIPs have full motor skills and can
> use a keyboard, but not see the screen very well.

I won't send the abuse back - but aren't you falsely assuming that I'm talking
about one person or group of people. I certainly didn't assume that a
registered blind person would be the same person with motor control
limitations - and, being fair to him, I don't think druck made that assumption
either.

> Having keypresses to use vastly improves their ability to navigate the
> screen.

How?
If they cannot see an enlarged, flashing pointer how would they see the window
furniture? It's no good having touch-type keyboard control if you cannot
distinguish the effect of what you do (positive feedback). NB As I've said
before I'm not convinced - but that doesn't mean that there is a good case
that still needs to be made. Your experience may mean that you know there is a
case, but you haven't made it - and starting out with abuse only detracts from
any case you make.

> Which is why they would never consider RISC OS.

I would have thought that the RISC OS screen could be presented more clearly
that the others - though it *is* significantly biased towards control through
visual feedback.

> > - but aren't there utilities to change the pointer into a larger,
> > flashing affair?

> I know how to find them in Windows - under Accessibility - can you please
> tell me where they are hidden in RISC OS?

Third party. Is that a request to ROL to include such accessibility items
within the OS?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 3:02:09 PM
On May 1, 2:54=EF=BF=BDpm, Rob Kendrick <n...@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> > Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> > mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
> > a disability inability to see a pointer
>
> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled
> people to use computers. =EF=BF=BDPersonally, I'd yield to his experience =
in this
> area.

Indeed, he is able to put himself "in their shoes", if you see
what I mean. Well perhaps not "in their shoes", but certainly
in their parking spaces.

Aaron
0
atimbrell (584)
5/1/2008 3:02:29 PM
In article <4YjSj.311$EH2.65@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> > mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
> > a disability inability to see a pointer

> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled 
> people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his experience in this 
> area.

You might. I'd simply ask him to state the case without reversion to personal
abuse.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 3:03:13 PM
On 1 May 2008  Aaron <atimbrell@aol.com> wrote:

> On May 1, 2:54?pm, Rob Kendrick <n...@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
>>> Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
>>> mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
>>> a disability inability to see a pointer
>>
>> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled
>> people to use computers. ?Personally, I'd yield to his experience in this
>> area.

> Indeed, he is able to put himself "in their shoes", if you see
> what I mean. Well perhaps not "in their shoes", but certainly
> in their parking spaces.

Oh, no, not that one yet again! Come off it please, people! :-(

As I said in a previous post, it's now posters at war, and some of it 
are brassed off (euphemism) by it all.

With best wishes,

Peter.

-- 
Peter  \  /      zfc Er       \     Prestbury, Cheltenham,  Glos. GL52
Anne    \/ __            __    \                              England.
and     / /  \ | | |\ | /  _    \      http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
family /  \__/ \_/ | \| \__/     \______________ pnyoung@ormail.co.uk.
0
pnyoung1 (1656)
5/1/2008 3:06:41 PM
In a dim and distant universe
<gemini.k06zf100apg6t024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > - but aren't there utilities to change the pointer into a larger,
> > flashing affair?

> I know how to find them in Windows - under Accessibility - can you please
> tell me where they are hidden in RISC OS?

As it was only a 30 second job to add such a facility to RISC OS, I've just
added support for a large, "accessibility" mouse pointer, which can be
toggled on or off from my MiscSetup utility (v1.13) which is available to
download from http://www.vigay.com/software/miscsetup.html

:-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 3:31:06 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f98b32250john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> How? If they cannot see an enlarged, flashing pointer how would they see
> the window furniture? It's no good having touch-type keyboard control if
> you cannot distinguish the effect of what you do (positive feedback).

Because people with limited eyesight aren't thick! They can operate a
keyboard because a keyboard is pretty much 'digital' as opposed to a mouse
being analogue.

By this I mean, if someone knows how to open a relevant window, then (for
example) hitting tab four times, followed by return, followed by tab twice,
followed by return is a lot easier than moving the mouse an artibary
distance up/down/left/right across the screen, especially as you don't know
the start position of it.

Using a keyboard allows people to remember certain combinations and easily
repeat them. Even I can recognise that this is one area where RISC OS is
not too hot.

Paul

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 3:46:44 PM
On Thu, 01 May 2008 16:46:44 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe <4f98b32250john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
>> How? If they cannot see an enlarged, flashing pointer how would they
>> see the window furniture? It's no good having touch-type keyboard
>> control if you cannot distinguish the effect of what you do (positive
>> feedback).
> 
> Because people with limited eyesight aren't thick! They can operate a
> keyboard because a keyboard is pretty much 'digital' as opposed to a
> mouse being analogue.
> 
> By this I mean, if someone knows how to open a relevant window, then
> (for example) hitting tab four times, followed by return, followed by
> tab twice, followed by return is a lot easier than moving the mouse an
> artibary distance up/down/left/right across the screen, especially as
> you don't know the start position of it.


Quite.  A blind friend of mine (who uses software developed by the 
company druck [at least used to] work for) didn't even have a mouse 
plugged into his PC: it would be worthless for him to do so.  However, he 
was entirely able to navigate the web, switch applications, write 
documents in Word, etc, entirely from the keyboard.

You can't do that in RISC OS, because there's next to no keyboard 
navigation.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/1/2008 3:50:07 PM
Aaron wrote:
> On May 1, 2:54�pm, Rob Kendrick <n...@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
>>> Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
>>> mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
>>> a disability inability to see a pointer
>> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled
>> people to use computers. �Personally, I'd yield to his experience in this
>> area.
> 
> Indeed, he is able to put himself "in their shoes", if you see
> what I mean. Well perhaps not "in their shoes", but certainly
> in their parking spaces.

In reference to a post _you_ just made, there was absolutely no
need for you to bring up a pointless chip on your shoulder from
years ago.   Instead of wasting time with such trolling, can
we get back to answering my questions about RISC OS development,
and demonstrate some maturity?

Thanks.
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/1/2008 3:54:59 PM
In message <4f98a2c53fjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <35ce60984f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
>    druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
>> Its got to the stage where its professional suicide

> Then commit suicide quickly and get out of our hair or stop posting such
> obnoxious comments. Your choice.

Look will you both please stop! You are both as bad as one another.

I don't care who's right - you are *both* wrong.

If you both want to play your school boy games then I can arrange a 
playpen for BOTH of you.

You both agreed to stop this insults last year. Please honour it and 
that applies to both of you - grow up the pair of you.

Neither of you need respond. Just STOP.

-- 
Chris Hughes
0
news2169 (535)
5/1/2008 4:01:17 PM
In article <4f98b5c8d6invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe
> <gemini.k06zf100apg6t024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > > - but aren't there utilities to change the pointer into a larger,
> > > flashing affair?
>
> > I know how to find them in Windows - under Accessibility - can you please
> > tell me where they are hidden in RISC OS?
>
> As it was only a 30 second job to add such a facility to RISC OS, I've just
> added support for a large, "accessibility" mouse pointer, which can be
> toggled on or off from my MiscSetup utility (v1.13) which is available to
> download from http://www.vigay.com/software/miscsetup.html

I've always wondered why you can't change the size/dimensions of the CloseUp
window. We've published the sources (it's a BASIC program) so I suppose I'll
leave that challenge open to someone to implement.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/1/2008 4:06:28 PM
In message <4f98b33b39john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4YjSj.311$EH2.65@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

>>> Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
>>> mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and
>>> a disability inability to see a pointer

>> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled
>> people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his experience in this
>> area.

> You might. I'd simply ask him to state the case without reversion to personal
> abuse.

Look John, please, please give it a rest. Please spend more time 
getting Qercus out on time rather then posting here like the rest of 
the editors would be a good start.

-- 
Chris Hughes
0
news2169 (535)
5/1/2008 4:07:36 PM
On Thu, 01 May 2008 17:06:28 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:

> I've always wondered why you can't change the size/dimensions of the
> CloseUp window. We've published the sources (it's a BASIC program) so I
> suppose I'll leave that challenge open to someone to implement.

The partially-sighted and blind people I've worked with just bought a 
larger monitor >:)

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/1/2008 4:10:18 PM
In article <4f98b73760invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <4f98b32250john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > How? If they cannot see an enlarged, flashing pointer how would they see
> > the window furniture? It's no good having touch-type keyboard control if
> > you cannot distinguish the effect of what you do (positive feedback).

> Because people with limited eyesight aren't thick! They can operate a
> keyboard because a keyboard is pretty much 'digital' as opposed to a mouse
> being analogue.

Whilst I know of Ray's expertise in this area I don't know yours. What you say
may well be true of some people - and certainly not of others - but certainly
doesn't answer the problem of lack of positive feedback - which is where you
have put your reply.

[Snip]

> Using a keyboard allows people to remember certain combinations and easily
> repeat them.

But without the positive feedback this can lead you well astray. It's
equivalent to the problem many adults have in learning to use a computer -
they want to know which buttons to push in which order - without appreciating
that, if you start off at the wrong point, you will quickly be totally lost.
Feedback is very important: visual is generally the best option - though Ray's
experience will undoubtedly offer the alternatives. All I'd quibble about with
Ray is that his experience with RISC OS doesn't AFAIK extend to the current
versions that are the subject of this thread.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 4:48:04 PM
In article <498cb8984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>,
   Chris Hughes <news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> You are both as bad as one another.

I'd take issue with that. I've been positive, despite some quite vicious
personal insults, in a thread that I started for good, positive reasons. A
short response to a long diatribe doesn't seem unreasonable. If you think that
I should take all the insults with no response then justify that.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 4:54:20 PM
Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe
> <gemini.k06zf100apg6t024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > > - but aren't there utilities to change the pointer into a larger,
> > > flashing affair?
> 
> > I know how to find them in Windows - under Accessibility - can you
> > please tell me where they are hidden in RISC OS?
> 
> As it was only a 30 second job to add such a facility to RISC OS, I've
> just added support for a large, "accessibility" mouse pointer, which can
> be toggled on or off from my MiscSetup utility (v1.13) which is
> available to download from http://www.vigay.com/software/miscsetup.html

OK, that's one job done. Now can you add all the keystrokes to RISC OS
that are present in Windows and gives accessibility to every object in the
window? 

The point being made earlier was that Windows allows a VIP to navigate
using only keypresses, whereas RISC OS doesn't.

Seriously, some years ago I tried to make a RISC OS computer accessible to
a blind person and couldn't. Jon Duddington added a couple of features to
Speak for me but it was never useable because of the lack of navigation
keystrokes and I had to abandon it. That blind person is able to access
Windows adequately and uses XP Home.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/1/2008 4:58:08 PM
Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 01 May 2008 17:06:28 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:
> 
> > I've always wondered why you can't change the size/dimensions of the
> > CloseUp window. We've published the sources (it's a BASIC program) so
> > I suppose I'll leave that challenge open to someone to implement.
> 
> The partially-sighted and blind people I've worked with just bought a 
> larger monitor >:)

Even a ten foot monitor isn't much use to a blind person ;-)

Navigation via the keyboard is the main problem, as is screen readers
being able to access menus, writeable icons etc. It works on Windows, but
not with RISC OS.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/1/2008 4:58:08 PM
Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> Instead of wasting time with such trolling, can we get back to answering
> my questions about RISC OS development, and demonstrate some maturity?

You know full well that you are never going to get the answers you want on
the newsgroups so, why not ask ROL yourself. As a senior developer for
RISC OS they are sure to supply you with all the information you need. If
ROL don't have the answers, ask Castle themselves. They can hardly refuse
the information to someone of your standing, can they?

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/1/2008 4:58:08 PM
cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid wrote:

> In message <4YjSj.311$EH2.65@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>
>           Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> > 
> > > Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> > > mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first;
> > > and a disability inability to see a pointer
> > 
> > Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing
> > disabled  people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his
> > experience in this  area.
> 
> Here's one that 'JC' could try - turn off his monitor - and then try
> and send a email to this news group.

And use that as his normal means of access to these newsgroups - Please! 
:-)

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/1/2008 5:00:31 PM
In article <7b20b9984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
<news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4f98b33b39john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
>           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <4YjSj.311$EH2.65@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> >    <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> >>> Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a mouse -
> >>> but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and a
> >>> disability inability to see a pointer

> >> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled
> >> people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his experience in
> >> this area.

> > You might. I'd simply ask him to state the case without reversion to
> > personal abuse.

> Look John, please, please give it a rest.

Chris - please note what is going on here. I started a thread about a positive
statement for RISC OS. Despite attempts to hijack it by the usual pessimist
suspects we have managed reasonably well. A diversion - about a potential
improvement for RISC OS - was interrupted by druck with his usual truck of
insults. Now you have forced me to quadruple my off-topic postings in this
thread - and have contributed nothing to the discussion in return. Until such
time as druck learns to curb his tongue, or takes the honourable way out, we
will be faced with such interruptions and have to learn to live with them -
but that doesn't mean an equal tongue-lashing for him and for everyone that he
chooses to insult. That merely wastes time.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 5:42:48 PM
In message <4f98b5c8d6invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>
          Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

>In a dim and distant universe
><gemini.k06zf100apg6t024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
>> > - but aren't there utilities to change the pointer into a larger,
>> > flashing affair?
>
>> I know how to find them in Windows - under Accessibility - can you please
>> tell me where they are hidden in RISC OS?
>
>As it was only a 30 second job to add such a facility to RISC OS, I've just
>added support for a large, "accessibility" mouse pointer, which can be
>toggled on or off from my MiscSetup utility (v1.13) which is available to
>download from http://www.vigay.com/software/miscsetup.html
>
>:-)
>

How about a mouse pointer that flashes when you hit a certain button
please.

I'm always losing the mouse pointer.


-- 
Kev Wells  http://kevsoft.topcities.com
http://kevsoft.co.uk/   http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561
Useless Fact 01 A Snail can sleep for 3 years.
0
kevinwells (472)
5/1/2008 5:44:03 PM
On May 1, 4:54=C2=A0pm, Peter Naulls <pe...@chocky.org> wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
> > On May 1, 2:54=EF=BF=BDpm, Rob Kendrick <n...@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> >>> Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> >>> mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; an=
d
> >>> a disability inability to see a pointer
> >> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disable=
d
> >> people to use computers. =EF=BF=BDPersonally, I'd yield to his experien=
ce in this
> >> area.
>
> > Indeed, he is able to put himself "in their shoes", if you see
> > what I mean. Well perhaps not "in their shoes", but certainly
> > in their parking spaces.
>
> In reference to a post _you_ just made, there was absolutely no
> need for you to bring up a pointless chip on your shoulder from
> years ago. =C2=A0 Instead of wasting time with such trolling, can
> we get back to answering my questions about RISC OS development,
> and demonstrate some maturity?

You now what, I really am sick to death of this. I've done my best
to answer your questions. Further information has been posted to
the Select Google Group. Now since Saturday morning the situation
has changed (as ROOL have release some more code that *might*
prove very useful). As it stands this needs to be looked at, both
in terms if usefulness and any possible licencing requirements.

Now why don't you take your "Select for Iyonix" chip elsewhere
for a while so that people can actually have a look at it again
in light of the weekends developments?

Aaron

P.S. If I decide to take the piss out of Druck (if he becomes
abusive) then I will, without leave or reference to your good
self.
0
atimbrell (584)
5/1/2008 5:46:10 PM
In article <KXlSj.327$EH2.107@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 17:06:28 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:

> > I've always wondered why you can't change the size/dimensions of the
> > CloseUp window. We've published the sources (it's a BASIC program) so I
> > suppose I'll leave that challenge open to someone to implement.

> The partially-sighted and blind people I've worked with just bought a 
> larger monitor >:)

It can be much more complex than that. Ray will know better but problems can
be reduced by colour background, contrast, positioning (some may have a
completely black area in the center of their vision), &c.

But with a larger monitor you would have more scope for a larger close up
window.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 5:46:45 PM
Aaron wrote:
>> we get back to answering my questions about RISC OS development,
>> and demonstrate some maturity?
> 
> You now what, I really am sick to death of this. 

I must say, that much of this is ROL's own doing.  They have
dug themselves a nice hole.  I'm sorry that they're unable
to present a consistent answer to the RISC OS community.

> I've done my best to answer your questions. 

I'm afraid that there are many questions you still haven't
answered.  I remain open to debate about any technical
issues, or practical approaches that I've named.  You
haven't responded to _any_ of those possibilities.

>Further information has been posted to
> the Select Google Group. Now since Saturday morning the situation
> has changed (as ROOL have release some more code that *might*
> prove very useful). As it stands this needs to be looked at, both
> in terms if usefulness and any possible licencing requirements.

Nothing has really changed; this information from ROL might sound
plausible to lay users, but already several different
developers have pointed out some very obvious flaws with
what has been said.

> Now why don't you take your "Select for Iyonix" chip elsewhere
> for a while so that people can actually have a look at it again
> in light of the weekends developments?

My chip is against inconsistent statements from ROL; nothing
more.  Sorry you don't see it that way.

> P.S. If I decide to take the piss out of Druck (if he becomes
> abusive) then I will, without leave or reference to your good
> self.

It's fantastic that a representative of ROL insists on behaving
in such an immature manner and contrary to the requests of
many of your own customers (this only raises further questions
about ROL's general behaviour to date), but if you must pursue such
insults, then take it to email.


0
peter4500 (2516)
5/1/2008 5:59:02 PM
In message <gemini.k0786c00hgqzz024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>
          Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

>> In a dim and distant universe
>> <gemini.k06zf100apg6t024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
>>>> - but aren't there utilities to change the pointer into a larger,
>>>> flashing affair?
>> 
>>> I know how to find them in Windows - under Accessibility - can you
>>> please tell me where they are hidden in RISC OS?
>> 
>> As it was only a 30 second job to add such a facility to RISC OS, I've
>> just added support for a large, "accessibility" mouse pointer, which can
>> be toggled on or off from my MiscSetup utility (v1.13) which is
>> available to download from http://www.vigay.com/software/miscsetup.html

> OK, that's one job done. Now can you add all the keystrokes to RISC OS
> that are present in Windows and gives accessibility to every object in the
> window?

> The point being made earlier was that Windows allows a VIP to navigate
> using only keypresses, whereas RISC OS doesn't.

RISC OS 6.10 has started implementing keyboard key strokes, so why go 
re-inventing the wheel.


[snip]

-- 
Chris Hughes
0
news2169 (535)
5/1/2008 6:00:29 PM
In a dim and distant universe
<gemini.k0786c00hgqzz024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> OK, that's one job done. Now can you add all the keystrokes to RISC OS
> that are present in Windows and gives accessibility to every object in
> the window? 

I could add keystroke accessibility to every object in a window in my own
software, but where the problem would arise is that there's no easy way of
adding it 'globally' to all RISC OS applications, which would probably
defeat the purpose of such an exercise - unless a person only wanted to use
specific applications.

> The point being made earlier was that Windows allows a VIP to navigate
> using only keypresses, whereas RISC OS doesn't.

Yes, that's a valid point which I'll admit Windows does better than RISC
OS. I shall have to have a ponder on this one....

Presumably however, a completely blind person is going to have specific
software and desktop environment, even on a PC. I can't imagine them
wanting to use a normal desktop in the same way you and I might?

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 6:04:25 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f98bcd48djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> But without the positive feedback this can lead you well astray. It's
> equivalent to the problem many adults have in learning to use a computer
> - they want to know which buttons to push in which order - without
> appreciating that, if you start off at the wrong point, you will quickly
> be totally lost.

You just assign a short 'blip' noise to each keypress, or 'tab key' press.
When you've wrapped around all the options and got back to the first one
again, you could have a longer blip, or a different tone.

My burglar alarm system works like this, in that if you accidentally enter
the wrong digits, or a digit has already been pressed, it will give a
longer bleep when you've entered the correct number of digits. Of course,
if you get it wrong 3 times in a row the thing goes off, but pressing reset
at any point 'clears' the entry sequence and lets you restart entering the
code.

You could always get the escape key (for example) to give another type of
bleep and then make the first option the active icon.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 6:09:45 PM
In message <4f98c1d7b1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <7b20b9984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> <news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <4f98b33b39john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
>>           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>> In article <4YjSj.311$EH2.65@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
>>>    <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

>>>>> Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a mouse -
>>>>> but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and a
>>>>> disability inability to see a pointer

>>>> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing disabled
>>>> people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his experience in
>>>> this area.

>>> You might. I'd simply ask him to state the case without reversion to
>>> personal abuse.

>> Look John, please, please give it a rest.

> Chris - please note what is going on here. I started a thread about a
> positive
> statement for RISC OS. Despite attempts to hijack it by the usual pessimist
> suspects we have managed reasonably well. A diversion - about a potential
> improvement for RISC OS - was interrupted by druck with his usual truck of
> insults. Now you have forced me to quadruple my off-topic postings in this
> thread - and have contributed nothing to the discussion in return. Until such
> time as druck learns to curb his tongue, or takes the honourable way out, we
> will be faced with such interruptions and have to learn to live with them -
> but that doesn't mean an equal tongue-lashing for him and for everyone
> that he
> chooses to insult. That merely wastes time.

John, with respect you are also dishing out insults left right and 
centre (I don't think you even realise it half the time).

You might well have started a "positive thread", but you are the only 
one prolonging the insults etc..

You have above just insulted Druck and everyone else in the process.

Just end it. Now and learn to hold your tongue.

Druck also needs to get off his high horse as well. Everyone is 
entitled to their opinion, even if you don't like it or disagree with 
it their is no excuse for the personal insults.


-- 
Chris Hughes
0
news2169 (535)
5/1/2008 6:10:51 PM
On Thu, 01 May 2008 19:04:25 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:

> Presumably however, a completely blind person is going to have specific
> software and desktop environment, even on a PC. I can't imagine them
> wanting to use a normal desktop in the same way you and I might?

My blind friends do.  Except they don't have a monitor or mouse, 
obviously.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/1/2008 6:15:21 PM
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4f98b73760invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
>    Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> > In a dim and distant universe <4f98b32250john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
> >    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > > How? If they cannot see an enlarged, flashing pointer how would they
> > > see the window furniture? It's no good having touch-type keyboard
> > > control if you cannot distinguish the effect of what you do
> > > (positive feedback).
> 
> > Because people with limited eyesight aren't thick! They can operate a
> > keyboard because a keyboard is pretty much 'digital' as opposed to a
> > mouse being analogue.
> 
> Whilst I know of Ray's expertise in this area I don't know yours. What
> you say may well be true of some people - and certainly not of others -
> but certainly doesn't answer the problem of lack of positive feedback -
> which is where you have put your reply.

They do have positive feedback, usually via a screen reader. Unfortunately
a screen reader wouldn't work on RISC OS as there isn't a lot outside of a
text editor that can be read off the screen. I know, because I've tried it
with Jon Duddington.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/1/2008 6:22:50 PM
Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

> 
> > The point being made earlier was that Windows allows a VIP to navigate
> > using only keypresses, whereas RISC OS doesn't.
> 
> Yes, that's a valid point which I'll admit Windows does better than RISC
> OS. I shall have to have a ponder on this one....
> 
> Presumably however, a completely blind person is going to have specific
> software and desktop environment, even on a PC. I can't imagine them
> wanting to use a normal desktop in the same way you and I might?
> 
A completely blind person uses Word and Excel, just as a sighted person
does. They open the Start menu, select Outlook, and fetch their email.
They run OmniPage Pro, put a document in the scanner, press a key and have
it read to them off screen - either by a softbraille reader or a speech
screen reader.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/1/2008 6:22:50 PM
In article <bdce38984f.cferris@cferris.freeuk.com>,
   <cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid> wrote:
> In message <4YjSj.311$EH2.65@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>
>           Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> > On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:
> > 
> > > Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a
> > > mouse - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first;
> > > and a disability inability to see a pointer
> > 
> > Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing
> > disabled  people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his
> > experience in this  area.

> Here's one that 'JC' could try - turn off his monitor - and then try
> and send a email to this news group.

I'd be happier to do that in RISC OS rather than Windows - and neither without
some significant customisation. But then I'm not saying that you don't need
the keyboard control of windows - just asking for justification for it. I can
see that it's more likely to be needed for Windows and I can see that there
wouldn't be the same demand for it in RISC OS. Beyond that are muddy waters.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 6:23:40 PM
In article <gemini.k078ah00hjxj5024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> > On Thu, 01 May 2008 17:06:28 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:
> > 
> > > I've always wondered why you can't change the size/dimensions of the
> > > CloseUp window. We've published the sources (it's a BASIC program) so
> > > I suppose I'll leave that challenge open to someone to implement.
> > 
> > The partially-sighted and blind people I've worked with just bought a 
> > larger monitor >:)

> Even a ten foot monitor isn't much use to a blind person ;-)

> Navigation via the keyboard is the main problem, as is screen readers
> being able to access menus, writeable icons etc. It works on Windows, but
> not with RISC OS.

Whilst I haven't used it I'm sure I remember Speak being used to read such
things. Am I mistaken?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 6:25:25 PM
In article <4f98aa6ab5john@acornusers.org>,
   John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> In article <4f98a2fd43john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4f985b3976spam@softrock.co.uk>,
> >    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

> > > you are the one making the claims in the here

> "...and now"

That would indeed be what I actually said.

> > I'm actually asking for answers. Any more is incidental and
> > asking for a detailed explanation of a comment said in passing is
> > asking too much. Sorry.

AFAIAC, all this means is that you don't have a valid justification
for your claims, only the foolish and blinkered opinion that "RISC OS
doesn't do it, so it's rubbish".

> I never saw the start of this, but the subject sounds intriguing.  I
> might suggest Jack Nicolson's approach as the US President in "Mars
> Attacks" -- 'Why can't we all just get along?"

I think in this case his approach in The Shining is probably more
appropriate.

-- 
VinceH
0
VinceH
5/1/2008 6:27:41 PM
In article <4f98b905b2steve@revi11.plus.com>,
   Ste (news) <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:

> We've published the sources (it's a BASIC program) so I suppose I'll
> leave that challenge open to someone to implement.

Source? If that's the source, then it's programming output of a
diseased mind!

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/1/2008 6:27:42 PM
In article <498cb8984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>,
   Chris Hughes <news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> If you both want to play your school boy games then I can arrange a 
> playpen for BOTH of you.

There's a paintball centre about a mile or so from the Cedar Court
hotel. (Delta Force Paintball IIRC)

Might be worth remembering for next year. :)

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/1/2008 6:27:42 PM
In article <4f98b32250john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <gemini.k06zf100apg6t024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

[muchos snippage]

> > Having keypresses to use vastly improves their ability to
> > navigate the screen.

> How? If they cannot see an enlarged, flashing pointer how would
> they see the window furniture? It's no good having touch-type
> keyboard control if you cannot distinguish the effect of what you
> do (positive feedback).

Perhaps you should seek out Ray's website and discover (or remind
yourself) that he probably does have some idea of what he's talking
about.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/1/2008 6:27:42 PM
In article <gemini.k0786c00hgqzz024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Seriously, some years ago I tried to make a RISC OS computer accessible to
> a blind person and couldn't. Jon Duddington added a couple of features to
> Speak for me but it was never useable because of the lack of navigation
> keystrokes and I had to abandon it. That blind person is able to access
> Windows adequately and uses XP Home.

Did that go to ROL as a suggestion for inclusion in future updates? They have
included keyboard shortcuts for the filer and I'm sure they would have
considered more had it been reasonably possible and a case was made out for
that.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 6:28:32 PM
Rob Kendrick wrote:

> On Thu, 01 May 2008 17:06:28 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:
> 
>> I've always wondered why you can't change the size/dimensions of the
>> CloseUp window. We've published the sources (it's a BASIC program) so I
>> suppose I'll leave that challenge open to someone to implement.
> 
> The partially-sighted and blind people I've worked with just bought a 
> larger monitor >:)

.... you know it's getting serious when the monitor is replaced by a
projector :-)

Cheers,

Stuart.
0
stuart1 (260)
5/1/2008 6:32:15 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f98c457f9spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> Source? If that's the source, then it's programming output of a diseased
> mind!

It looked reasonably ok to me. I may have a play around with it myself. :-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 6:33:22 PM
In a dim and distant universe <fff4c1984f.Kevin@talktalk.net>,
   Kevin Wells <kevinwells@talktalk.net> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> How about a mouse pointer that flashes when you hit a certain button
> please.

> I'm always losing the mouse pointer.

I did think of making it animate, as in the 'snake' in my SuperSnake game -
but it rapidly becomes rather irritating.... ;-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 6:35:19 PM
On Thu, 01 May 2008 19:28:32 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <gemini.k0786c00hgqzz024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> Seriously, some years ago I tried to make a RISC OS computer accessible
>> to a blind person and couldn't. Jon Duddington added a couple of
>> features to Speak for me but it was never useable because of the lack
>> of navigation keystrokes and I had to abandon it. That blind person is
>> able to access Windows adequately and uses XP Home.
> 
> Did that go to ROL as a suggestion for inclusion in future updates? They
> have included keyboard shortcuts for the filer and I'm sure they would
> have considered more had it been reasonably possible and a case was made
> out for that.

The issue is that adding generic keyboard navigation to RISC OS, like 
most features it is sorely lacking, could cause wide-spread 
incompatibilities - ie, where things clash with an application's already 
extant keyboard shortcuts (rather than keyboard navigation, which is 
limited to changing between text entry widgets.)

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/1/2008 6:49:15 PM
In article <IunSj.449$3O7.418@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>, Peter Naulls
<peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> I must say, that much of this is ROL's own doing.  They have dug themselves
> a nice hole.  I'm sorry that they're unable to present a consistent answer
> to the RISC OS community.

ROL have been (reasonably) consistent though some people have taken their
comments out of context in order to make it seem inconsistent. It should be
fairly clear that, even though it would never make sense on a simple 'will it
make a profit' basis, that it might still be profitable as 'goodwill' to port
Select for the small number of Iyonix users. That equation would change where
Iyonix users were turned off Select by negative campaigning here.

Expecting ROL to keep their priorities unchanged despite changing
circumstances is unreasonable.

ROL can be criticised for failure to promote sufficiently well against a tide
of negative campaigning but blaming them for your actions takes the biscuit.

Now ROL have a great product - and it's not surprising that people want to buy
into it - but there is greater chance of that being possible if we all
concentrate on jointly promoting the good products that are coming from ROL
(and ROOL) rather than silly in-fighting. ROL and ROOL have agreed that
co-operation is a good idea.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 7:06:26 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f98c5be84john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> Whilst I haven't used it I'm sure I remember Speak being used to read
> such things. Am I mistaken?

Indeed. I've just been experimenting, and it would be relatively easy to
implement a screen reader for RISC OS.

I've just been hovering a mouse around the screen and reading window titles
and icon contents from within the window it's over.

Feed this to Speak and you should be able to speak aloud the title and
contents of whatever window the mouse is over - of course, you'd need a way
of selecting which window you want to use, if you don't have a mouse - but
Steve Revill's MoreDesk has keyboard control for windows, so I wouldn't
have thought it would be too difficult to write an application which steps
through available windows via tab and then reads the contents.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 7:20:31 PM
In article <1369c4984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
<news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4f98c1d7b1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
>           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <7b20b9984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> > <news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> >> In message <4f98b33b39john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> >>           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >>> In article <4YjSj.311$EH2.65@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> >>>    <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:20:46 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> >>>>> Druck tries to make a case for a disability inability to use a mouse
> >>>>> - but surely an inability to use a keyboard would come first; and a
> >>>>> disability inability to see a pointer

> >>>> Dave has extensive experience in terms of software for allowing
> >>>> disabled people to use computers.  Personally, I'd yield to his
> >>>> experience in this area.

> >>> You might. I'd simply ask him to state the case without reversion to
> >>> personal abuse.

> >> Look John, please, please give it a rest.

> > Chris - please note what is going on here. I started a thread about a
> > positive statement for RISC OS. Despite attempts to hijack it by the
> > usual pessimist suspects we have managed reasonably well. A diversion -
> > about a potential improvement for RISC OS - was interrupted by druck with
> > his usual truck of insults. Now you have forced me to quadruple my
> > off-topic postings in this thread - and have contributed nothing to the
> > discussion in return. Until such time as druck learns to curb his tongue,
> > or takes the honourable way out, we will be faced with such interruptions
> > and have to learn to live with them - but that doesn't mean an equal
> > tongue-lashing for him and for everyone that he chooses to insult. That
> > merely wastes time.

> John, with respect you are also dishing out insults left right and centre

Just look at what you have quoted above. I'm the one (the only one) discussing
the subject. Look at the thread - read it (don't skim it like you usually do -
NB you've shown in a parallel response that you have failed to follow the
discussion). Unless you consider that politely arguing a case is an insult
your comment is wrong, asking someone to state a case without including
personal insults is *not* an insult!; my so-called 'insults' have been
confined to very limited responses to unwarranted abuse.

Now would you like to contribute to the discussion in the thread?

[Snip]

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 7:20:33 PM
In article <gemini.k07cfo00kr1se024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> They do have positive feedback, usually via a screen reader. Unfortunately
> a screen reader wouldn't work on RISC OS as there isn't a lot outside of a
> text editor that can be read off the screen. I know, because I've tried it
> with Jon Duddington.

I though Speak could access more. Thanks for the clarification.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 7:21:33 PM
In article <4f98c3cc75spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f98b32250john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <gemini.k06zf100apg6t024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
> >   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> [muchos snippage]

> > > Having keypresses to use vastly improves their ability to
> > > navigate the screen.

> > How? If they cannot see an enlarged, flashing pointer how would
> > they see the window furniture? It's no good having touch-type
> > keyboard control if you cannot distinguish the effect of what you
> > do (positive feedback).

> Perhaps you should seek out Ray's website and discover (or remind
> yourself) that he probably does have some idea of what he's talking
> about.

I know Ray's background. I've already mentioned his expertise on a number of
occasions and that's why I'm asking the questions of him. What he said (in
context) wasn't consistent (not seeing a dirty great big flashing pointer but
seeing the window furniture) but he has now clarified the matter. With usenet
it's normal to get misleading ideas down the thread and reasonable to ask
searching questions to clarify the matter.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 7:27:44 PM
In article <4f98c4ca15spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <498cb8984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>,
>    Chris Hughes <news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> > If you both want to play your school boy games then I can arrange a 
> > playpen for BOTH of you.

> There's a paintball centre about a mile or so from the Cedar Court
> hotel. (Delta Force Paintball IIRC)

> Might be worth remembering for next year. :)

Druck would probably insist on having wings and a machine gun. ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 7:28:50 PM
In article <4f98b73760invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <4f98b32250john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > How? If they cannot see an enlarged, flashing pointer how would they see
> > the window furniture? It's no good having touch-type keyboard control if
> > you cannot distinguish the effect of what you do (positive feedback).

> Because people with limited eyesight aren't thick! They can operate a
> keyboard because a keyboard is pretty much 'digital' as opposed to a mouse
> being analogue.

> By this I mean, if someone knows how to open a relevant window, then (for
> example) hitting tab four times, followed by return, followed by tab
> twice, followed by return is a lot easier than moving the mouse an
> artibary distance up/down/left/right across the screen, especially as you
> don't know the start position of it.

> Using a keyboard allows people to remember certain combinations and easily
> repeat them. Even I can recognise that this is one area where RISC OS is
> not too hot.

I've not followed this thread to a vast extent; just kept a brief eye on it,
so forgive me if I've missed something, but I have extensive personal
experience of visual impairment and I actual gave a demo of RISC OS to my
Dad, Uncle and Aunt, and all of them said (independently) that they couldn't
use it because there weren't enough short cuts. My Dad, AFAIK doesn't
actually use the mouse pad on his laptop as he doesn't need it; everything
is done by Ctrl, Tab and Shift keys.

Just my penny worth

- Louie 

> Paul

0
louie (180)
5/1/2008 7:35:34 PM
On 1 May, 18:59, Peter Naulls <pe...@chocky.org> wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
> >> we get back to answering my questions about RISC OS development,
> >> and demonstrate some maturity?
>
> > You now what, I really am sick to death of this.
>
> I must say, that much of this is ROL's own doing. =A0They have
> dug themselves a nice hole. =A0I'm sorry that they're unable
> to present a consistent answer to the RISC OS community.

Sorry Peter, but the statements I have seen have been
totally conistant.

>
> > I've done my best to answer your questions.
>
> I'm afraid that there are many questions you still haven't
> answered. =A0I remain open to debate about any technical
> issues, or practical approaches that I've named. =A0You
> haven't responded to _any_ of those possibilities.

Go back and re-read what I said.

>
> >Further information has been posted to
> > the Select Google Group. Now since Saturday morning the situation
> > has changed (as ROOL have release some more code that *might*
> > prove very useful). As it stands this needs to be looked at, both
> > in terms if usefulness and any possible licencing requirements.
>
> Nothing has really changed; this information from ROL might sound
> plausible to lay users, but already several different
> developers have pointed out some very obvious flaws with
> what has been said.

Of course it has has changed. Do you read anything? ROOL
have released more code. This may or may not be useful
to ROL in getting Select for the Iyonix. A product that
you have already said you don't want.

>
> > Now why don't you take your "Select for Iyonix" chip elsewhere
> > for a while so that people can actually have a look at it again
> > in light of the weekends developments?
>
> My chip is against inconsistent statements from ROL; nothing
> more. =A0Sorry you don't see it that way.

No Peter, you are ducking and weaving like a man possessed.
The only inconsistances are in your statements and
assurtions (see the other thread you are posting to for
examples).

>
> > P.S. If I decide to take the piss out of Druck (if he becomes
> > abusive) then I will, without leave or reference to your good
> > self.
>
> It's fantastic that a representative of ROL insists on behaving
> in such an immature manner and contrary to the requests of
> many of your own customers (this only raises further questions
> about ROL's general behaviour to date), but if you must pursue such
> insults, then take it to email.

As I said before I do not take reference from yourself. I might
if you demonstarted any impartiality. Was Drucks behaviour
and foul language acceptable? Was it OK for him to be drunk
at the Wakefield show? I don't think it was. In relation my gentle
ribbing is of no matter. As increasingly is this thread :-(

Aaron
0
atimbrell (584)
5/1/2008 8:21:20 PM
In article <4f98c457f9spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f98b905b2steve@revi11.plus.com>,
>    Ste (news) <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
>
> > We've published the sources (it's a BASIC program) so I suppose I'll
> > leave that challenge open to someone to implement.
>
> Source? If that's the source, then it's programming output of a
> diseased mind!

Maybe you were looking at the crunched BASIC program? That's not the source
code! :)

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/1/2008 8:35:19 PM
In article <LgoSj.347$EH2.72@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 19:28:32 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > In article <gemini.k0786c00hgqzz024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
> >    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Seriously, some years ago I tried to make a RISC OS computer accessible
> >> to a blind person and couldn't. Jon Duddington added a couple of
> >> features to Speak for me but it was never useable because of the lack
> >> of navigation keystrokes and I had to abandon it. That blind person is
> >> able to access Windows adequately and uses XP Home.
> > 
> > Did that go to ROL as a suggestion for inclusion in future updates? They
> > have included keyboard shortcuts for the filer and I'm sure they would
> > have considered more had it been reasonably possible and a case was made
> > out for that.

> The issue is that adding generic keyboard navigation to RISC OS, like 
> most features it is sorely lacking, could cause wide-spread 
> incompatibilities - ie, where things clash with an application's already 
> extant keyboard shortcuts (rather than keyboard navigation, which is 
> limited to changing between text entry widgets.)

So it clashes with the "reasonably possible" and RISC OS's strengths remain in
other areas. And it's the strengths that we're looking for here- not
weaknesses. You might want to start another thread to discuss suggestions for
improvement of RISC OS.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 8:48:14 PM
In article <4f98d1a2e8steve@revi11.plus.com>,
   Ste (news) <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:

> Maybe you were looking at the crunched BASIC program? That's not
> the source code! :)

I was - and, yes, I realised it was crunched. I was making a silly
point (and making a silly mistake at the same time) about releasing
the crunched code as 'source code'

I think a certain Mr H. Simpson usually has something appropriate to
say about now.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/1/2008 8:49:48 PM
In article <4f98cc2aa2louie@orpheusmail.co.uk>,
   Louie <louie@orpheusmail.co.uk> wrote:
> I've not followed this thread to a vast extent; just kept a brief eye on it,
> so forgive me if I've missed something, but I have extensive personal
> experience of visual impairment and I actual gave a demo of RISC OS to my
> Dad, Uncle and Aunt, and all of them said (independently) that they couldn't
> use it because there weren't enough short cuts. My Dad, AFAIK doesn't
> actually use the mouse pad on his laptop as he doesn't need it; everything
> is done by Ctrl, Tab and Shift keys.

Which version of RISC OS? RO 6.10 has extensive short cuts for filer
operations (though not for windows as discussed here) and that may make a
difference in some cases.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 8:51:03 PM
VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk>:
> In article <4f98d1a2e8steve@revi11.plus.com>,
>    Ste (news) <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
>> Maybe you were looking at the crunched BASIC program? That's not
>> the source code! :)
>
> I was - and, yes, I realised it was crunched. I was making a silly
> point (and making a silly mistake at the same time) about releasing
> the crunched code as 'source code'
>
> I think a certain Mr H. Simpson usually has something appropriate to
> say about now.

`Mmm, doughnuts'?

b.

-- 
<bas@bas.me.uk>                                       <URL:http://bas.me.uk/>
                        L'amour n'est pas pop.
0
bas72 (726)
5/1/2008 8:53:05 PM
In article <4f98cae20djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <gemini.k07cfo00kr1se024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > They do have positive feedback, usually via a screen reader.
> > Unfortunately a screen reader wouldn't work on RISC OS as there isn't a
> > lot outside of a text editor that can be read off the screen. I know,
> > because I've tried it with Jon Duddington.
>
> I though Speak could access more. Thanks for the clarification.

You won't easily be able to read the contents of anything which isn't a real
icon - e.g. stuff that uses Wimp_PlotIcon, like the contents of Filer
windows. Also, the contents of icons which are sprite only won't be much fun.

If all icons had a bit of associated text (like alt text for images in HTML)
then that could be used. Basically, my starting for thinking about this
would be some sort of !Help and !Speak collaboration.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/1/2008 8:54:23 PM
In article <slrn.2008-05-01.20-52-16@cunegonde.bas.me.uk>,
 Ben Shimmin <bas@llamaselector.com> wrote:

> VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk>:

[snip]

> > I think a certain Mr H. Simpson usually has something appropriate to
> > say about now.
> 
> `Mmm, doughnuts'?

Perhaps; only with a bit less 'ugh' (the 'ugh' probably results from 
looking at crunched BASIC).
-- 
Andy Wingate <URL:http://www.sparse.net>
I'm not nearly as think as you confused I am.
0
andy8-4 (8)
5/1/2008 9:03:42 PM
Aaron wrote:

[snip personal attacks]

Sorry, I'm not going to play this game where you
avoid questions and instead turn them into personal
attacks for whatever reason or justification, regardless
anyone else's behaviour.

It remains the case that I have a large number of
questions unanswered, and I'm not the only
one asking them.   Once again, I offer my technical
advice on achieving reasonable ends for everyone,
but not at the cost of trading insults or paranoia.

See you on csa.apps.

0
peter4500 (2516)
5/1/2008 9:09:54 PM
In message <gemini.k05dvu001tc6u0320.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>
          Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I really don't know Windows very well. It might be multi-tasking except
> > for the fact that it's a bit difficult to actually multi-task on it.
> 
> Why? Which applications do you find difficult to multitask?

My observation is that it may not be an application.  Just this
afternoon I was looking at a log file in XP.  For no apparent
reason, the hourglass appeared, stayed for a few seconds, and
disappeared again.

There are frequent occasions when I try to drag a window, and
simply nothing happens.  A few seconds later, it catches up.

And then there's start-up every morning.  Switch on, log in, go
and make a coffee; come back to see a desktop slowly assembling.
Even when all the windows have opened, it will be 2-3 minutes
before any desktop icon will respond to being double-clicked.
It even takes several seconds for the hourglass to appear.

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
5/1/2008 9:15:35 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f98d21516spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> I think a certain Mr H. Simpson usually has something appropriate to say
> about now.

Mmmm, donuts! ;-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 9:21:43 PM
In a dim and distant universe
<slrn.2008-05-01.20-52-16@cunegonde.bas.me.uk>,
   Ben Shimmin <bas@llamaselector.com> enlightened us thusly:

> `Mmm, doughnuts'?

Doh! Snap! ;-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 9:21:59 PM
On Thu, 01 May 2008 21:48:14 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> So it clashes with the "reasonably possible" and RISC OS's strengths
> remain in other areas. And it's the strengths that we're looking for
> here- not weaknesses. You might want to start another thread to discuss
> suggestions for improvement of RISC OS.

You've not managed to express any strengths that other OSes don't already 
do, and perhaps even do better, though.  What's the point of cataloguing 
its strengths if they're done just as well or better elsewhere?

I'm sure there are some.  I'm just curious as to what you consider its 
strengths are when shown in the same light as other systems.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/1/2008 9:27:33 PM
In message <4f98c5954fjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I'd be happier to do that in RISC OS rather than Windows - and neither
> without some significant customisation. But then I'm not saying that you
> don't need the keyboard control of windows - just asking for justification
> for it. I can see that it's more likely to be needed for Windows and I can
> see that there wouldn't be the same demand for it in RISC OS. Beyond that
> are muddy waters.

I find keyboard control handy on Windoze - for the very simple reason
that swapping between keyboard and mouse is slow, so, for common tasks,
all-keyboard control can be faster.

Just one simple example: finish editing a document, press Control-S
to save it, then Alt-F4 to close the window and exit.

I know it's down to the apps, but Control-S to save and Alt-F4 to
close and exit are pretty much universal across Windoze.

I don't care what background it came from; I'm not arguing it for
disabilities; I'd like to see it in RISC OS simply because it's handy.
It's a small time saver.

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
5/1/2008 9:27:51 PM
Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>:
> In a dim and distant universe
> <slrn.2008-05-01.20-52-16@cunegonde.bas.me.uk>,
>    Ben Shimmin <bas@llamaselector.com> enlightened us thusly:
>> `Mmm, doughnuts'?
>
> Doh! Snap! ;-)

To be fair, I think Homer would spell it your way.

b.

-- 
<bas@bas.me.uk>                                       <URL:http://bas.me.uk/>
  `It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than to
   put out on the troubled seas of thought.'             -- J.K. Galbraith
0
bas72 (726)
5/1/2008 9:44:44 PM
In article <9BqSj.748$EH2.219@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 21:48:14 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > So it clashes with the "reasonably possible" and RISC OS's strengths
> > remain in other areas. And it's the strengths that we're looking for
> > here- not weaknesses. You might want to start another thread to discuss
> > suggestions for improvement of RISC OS.

> You've not managed to express any strengths that other OSes don't already 
> do, and perhaps even do better, though.  What's the point of cataloguing 
> its strengths if they're done just as well or better elsewhere?

They aren't.

Many thanks to those who have contributed positively to this thread.

-- 
John Cartmell - editor AT qercus.com  www.qercus.com   www.acornuser.com
	Qercus/Acorn User: reporting on computers & computing since 1982
	Qercus/Acorn User, 30 Finnybank Rd Sale M33 6LR  == 0845 006 8822
0
editor605 (623)
5/1/2008 9:57:47 PM
In article <5f72d6984f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Just one simple example: finish editing a document, press Control-S
> to save it,
(two buttons)

F3 then return
(two buttons)

> then Alt-F4 to close the window and exit.

So you want an alternative to select-X?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/1/2008 10:09:02 PM
In a dim and distant universe <5f72d6984f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> enlightened us thusly:

> Just one simple example: finish editing a document, press Control-S to
> save it, then Alt-F4 to close the window and exit.

Erm how does this differ from f3, return followed by ctrl-f2 on RISC OS?

That sequence is pretty universal throughout RISC OS applications.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/1/2008 10:11:57 PM
In message <4f98c4ca15spam@softrock.co.uk>
          VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <498cb8984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>,
>    Chris Hughes <news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>> If you both want to play your school boy games then I can arrange a
>> playpen for BOTH of you.

> There's a paintball centre about a mile or so from the Cedar Court
> hotel. (Delta Force Paintball IIRC)

> Might be worth remembering for next year. :)

Thanks I will make a note of it.  :-)

We nearly had some planks last year at the canel for them to both walk 
the plank.

-- 
Chris Hughes
0
news2169 (535)
5/1/2008 10:24:42 PM
In article <bf52d5984f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> And then there's start-up every morning.  Switch on, log in, go
> and make a coffee; come back to see a desktop slowly assembling.
> Even when all the windows have opened, it will be 2-3 minutes
> before any desktop icon will respond to being double-clicked.
> It even takes several seconds for the hourglass to appear.

Don't forget to wait whle your anti-virus updates itself and then runs a
check on your machine.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
5/1/2008 11:36:27 PM
On 1 May 2008 Aaron <atimbrell@aol.com> wrote:
> As I said before I do not take reference from yourself. I might
> if you demonstarted any impartiality. Was Drucks behaviour
> and foul language acceptable?

Now you mention it, I have no hesitation in apologising for the 
language, but not the senitments.

> Was it OK for him to be drunk at the Wakefield show? I don't think it was.

Now you might want to wind your neck in there. I was very drunk at 
Wakefield two nights in a row, but not during the show and neither
was any other exhibitor.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/2/2008 12:00:07 AM
On 1 May 2008 "Ste (news)" <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <4f98cae20djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <gemini.k07cfo00kr1se024c.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>> They do have positive feedback, usually via a screen reader.
>>> Unfortunately a screen reader wouldn't work on RISC OS as there isn't a
>>> lot outside of a text editor that can be read off the screen. I know,
>>> because I've tried it with Jon Duddington.
>>
>> I though Speak could access more. Thanks for the clarification.

> You won't easily be able to read the contents of anything which isn't a real
> icon - e.g. stuff that uses Wimp_PlotIcon, like the contents of Filer
> windows. Also, the contents of icons which are sprite only won't be much fun.

> If all icons had a bit of associated text (like alt text for images in HTML)
> then that could be used. Basically, my starting for thinking about this
> would be some sort of !Help and !Speak collaboration.

Yes all the fundementals are there. I've got a fair bit of experience 
in the nightmare task of developing a screen reader for Windows 
desktop and Windows Mobile, and it would be far far easier for RISC OS 
with its limited number of clean APIs and trappable software vectors. 
About the only thing that would cause problems is reading text from 
custom plotting routines such as those in Oregano 1/2/3 and !PDF2 
beta. Of course to control the computer you'd have to bolt on the 
concept of keyboard navigation for all windows and icons, which 
without OS support won't be pretty, but it can be done.

I have considered developing a RISC OS screen reader and magnifier, 
after all the user base is aging rapidly and I'm not getting any 
younger myself. But I really can't get enough motivation to take on 
such a big project, the way things are going.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/2/2008 12:11:03 AM
In a dim and distant universe <c962e4984f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
   druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> enlightened us thusly:

> Now you might want to wind your neck in there. I was very drunk at
> Wakefield two nights in a row, but not during the show and neither was
> any other exhibitor.

Aaron is obviously unfamiliar with the phrase, "Work hard, play hard". ;-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/2/2008 6:43:32 AM
In article <4f98d31392john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Which version of RISC OS? RO 6.10 has extensive short cuts for filer
> operations 

As do the others with QuickFiler loaded. You seem to keep forgetting that
exists.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/2/2008 8:01:07 AM
[Resend of article posted early yesterday, but not apparently received.
Apologies if it now appears twice, but it seemed important to make sure it
ws received)


In article <4f982e7889nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f981044f2richtnews@uwclub.net>,
>    Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
> >    David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F. Johnson
> > > <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > Either I couldn't find something that was there 

> > Correct!

> Meaningless! Try giving a clear response instead of just snipping one
> part of an "either..."

You are quite right. Not helpful and, indeed, incorrect.

I was quite convinced that JC had used the words 'hands-down', but checking
back I find I was wrong :-(

My apologies.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/2/2008 8:36:09 AM
In article <4f99106c60steve@revi11.plus.com>,
   Ste (news) <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <4f98d31392john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Which version of RISC OS? RO 6.10 has extensive short cuts for filer
> > operations 

> As do the others with QuickFiler loaded. You seem to keep forgetting that
> exists.

I certainly haven't forgotten that (I've just written that up for the Take 6
column in Qercus) - but I was being severely admonished to stick to what the
OS provides. It's difficult walking that fine line with those snipers playing
silly-pillocks! ;-(

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 8:36:58 AM
In a dim and distant universe <4f98da376fjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > then Alt-F4 to close the window and exit.

> So you want an alternative to select-X?

I already gave it - CTRL-F2

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/2/2008 8:51:39 AM
In article <4f98bd67cejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <498cb8984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
>    <news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> > You are both as bad as one another.

> I'd take issue with that. I've been positive, despite some quite vicious
> personal insults, in a thread that I started for good, positive reasons.
> A short response to a long diatribe doesn't seem unreasonable. If you
> think that I should take all the insults with no response then justify
> that.

That's easy. Either the insults are justified, in which case you just make
yourself look petty by responding, or they are not justified in which case
everyone else can see that they are not justified and there is no need to
respond. In the latter case, you might even get some brownie points.

The fact that you continually feel the need to respond suggests that you are
not confident in the strength of your own arguments. In that case, perhaps
you should review what you have said and work out why that is.

If there is one message that leaps out at us from the Israel/Palestine
situation it is that the whole attack/respond/attack/respond cycle gets the
warring parties absolutely nowhere, and outside observers grinding their
teeth in exasperation at the stupidity of the whole thing.

It just takes one party to step back, and the cycle is broken.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/2/2008 9:04:14 AM
On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:57:47 +0100, Qercus editor wrote:

>> You've not managed to express any strengths that other OSes don't
>> already do, and perhaps even do better, though.  What's the point of
>> cataloguing its strengths if they're done just as well or better
>> elsewhere?
> 
> They aren't.

And yet you can't name any... fascinating.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/2/2008 9:20:17 AM
In message <4f98da7ba9invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>, Paul Vigay  wrote:

> ctrl-f2 on RISC OS [closes a window]

Huh. There's not many things like that on RISC OS I don't already know -
but that's one! Is it the OS emulating a click on the close icon or do
apps have to impliment it explicitly? (If the latter, I guess I'm going
to have to update some of my programs!)

Adam

-- 
Adam Richardson          Carpe Diem
http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/
0
news4275 (1182)
5/2/2008 9:52:32 AM
In article <4f99150cdeinvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <4f98da376fjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > > then Alt-F4 to close the window and exit.

> > So you want an alternative to select-X?

> I already gave it - CTRL-F2

Mine went 2 minutes before yours! ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 10:39:29 AM
In article <l1BSj.5990$b4.2422@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:57:47 +0100, Qercus editor wrote:

> >> You've not managed to express any strengths that other OSes don't
> >> already do, and perhaps even do better, though.  What's the point of
> >> cataloguing its strengths if they're done just as well or better
> >> elsewhere?
> > 
> > They aren't.

> And yet you can't name any... fascinating.

They have already been named - as you well know. You also know that it's a
waste of time repeating things to people like yourself - because you'll only
claim in the future that it hasn't been said, and ask for the information yet
again. Stop time wasting.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 10:41:39 AM
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008, John Cartmell wrote:

[Keyboard control of OS GUI]

> I can see why it's handy with Windows - but with RISC OS so much more can be
> done with the mouse. You seem to want a Windows kludge (because it's needed in
> Windows) when it isn't needed for proficient use in RISC OS. We now have
> keyboard manipulation of the filer but I've yet to be convinced that much more
> is needed - but do try to convince me that it is needed *in RISC OS*.

Consider accessibility then, if you can't see beyond your mouse buttons. 
Ask yourself how easy it would be to create a usable RO solution for a 
disabled user who cannot push a mouse around.

Windows and most other GUIs also have pretty good options for partially 
sighted users - one of my recently retired colleagues is registered blind 
though he has some vision, and it was quite amazing watching him work on 
his laptop with a combination of HUGE text and a very very clear speech 
synth which can read the contents of any text on the screen.

-- 
0
5/2/2008 10:53:29 AM
On Fri, 02 May 2008 11:41:39 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <l1BSj.5990$b4.2422@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:57:47 +0100, Qercus editor wrote:
> 
>> >> You've not managed to express any strengths that other OSes don't
>> >> already do, and perhaps even do better, though.  What's the point of
>> >> cataloguing its strengths if they're done just as well or better
>> >> elsewhere?
>> > 
>> > They aren't.
> 
>> And yet you can't name any... fascinating.
> 
> They have already been named - as you well know. 

Certainly things have been mentioned that other systems do as well or 
better, and there have been a couple of personal preferences mentioned - 
but no tangible strengths.

If RISC OS has so many, I'm sure you could name a few more that are yet 
to be mentioned here.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/2/2008 10:59:22 AM
In article <ddb8a$4819ba5f$9472@news.teranews.com>,
   Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi,

> John Cartmell wrote:

> > In article <6481d$4818a50d$9553@news.teranews.com>,
> >    Paul F. Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> >> Based on this thread, I think the missing essays will be very short
> >> indeed....
> > 
> > Have you read the original article? ;-)

> I have now. I think you could probably get away with "Duh, we have nice
> icons and a purdy mousey thing" and it would fit in well....

I was hoping for something better from RISC OS people!
We have a better platform so why not better promotion of it! ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 11:02:31 AM
In article <4f9913a1a6richtnews@uwclub.net>,
   Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> [Resend of article posted early yesterday, but not apparently received.
> Apologies if it now appears twice, but it seemed important to make sure it
> ws received)


> In article <4f982e7889nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
>    David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <4f981044f2richtnews@uwclub.net>,
> >    Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
> > >    David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F. Johnson
> > > > <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > > Either I couldn't find something that was there 

> > > Correct!

> > Meaningless! Try giving a clear response instead of just snipping one
> > part of an "either..."

> You are quite right. Not helpful and, indeed, incorrect.

> I was quite convinced that JC had used the words 'hands-down', but checking
> back I find I was wrong :-(

> My apologies.

None needed for me. ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 11:03:49 AM
In article <4f9916337erichtnews@uwclub.net>,
   Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> In article <4f98bd67cejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <498cb8984f.chris@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> >    <news@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> > > You are both as bad as one another.

> > I'd take issue with that. I've been positive, despite some quite vicious
> > personal insults, in a thread that I started for good, positive reasons.
> > A short response to a long diatribe doesn't seem unreasonable. If you
> > think that I should take all the insults with no response then justify
> > that.

> That's easy. Either the insults are justified, in which case you just make
> yourself look petty by responding, or they are not justified in which case
> everyone else can see that they are not justified and there is no need to
> respond. In the latter case, you might even get some brownie points.

I've tried the latter - but with a continuing attack some third parties get
the idea that no reply = attack was justified. If someone else responded to
druck with a simple "That's not acceptable" then I'd be very happy to duck
(druck? ;-) out.

I could simply opt out by simply not posting. That will make things quieter -
and some people involved in RISC OS development have taken that option because
it's simply not worth the aggro. I decided not to because it seemed wrong to
leave the space open to those using bullying techniques to discourage ideas
contrary to their own.

[Snip]

> It just takes one party to step back, and the cycle is broken.

It should. The 'bully principle' - someone's putting the boot in so I'll join
them - operates against that.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 11:29:31 AM
On May 2, 1:00=EF=BF=BDam, druck <n...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 1 May 2008 Aaron <atimbr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > As I said before I do not take reference from yourself. I might
> > if you demonstarted any impartiality. Was Drucks behaviour
> > and foul language acceptable?
>
> Now you mention it, I have no hesitation in apologising for the
> language, but not the senitments.

I wasn't raising an issue with the sentiments, your opions
are you own.

>
> > Was it OK for him to be drunk at the Wakefield show? I don't think it wa=
s.
>
> Now you might want to wind your neck in there. I was very drunk at
> Wakefield two nights in a row, but not during the show and neither
> was any other exhibitor.

I apologise. I was given to understand that your condition on the
stand
on Saturday was due to an excessive fluid intake. Perhaps it was
just 12 hour flu.

Aaron
0
atimbrell (584)
5/2/2008 11:37:33 AM
In a dim and distant universe <ad9f1a994f.admin@snowstone.org.uk>,
   Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> Huh. There's not many things like that on RISC OS I don't already know -
> but that's one! Is it the OS emulating a click on the close icon or do
> apps have to impliment it explicitly? (If the latter, I guess I'm going
> to have to update some of my programs!)

I suspect it's just a keypress that programs are recognising and, following
standard convention, closing the window.

I say this, because not all windows support the feature, even those with
close icons.

I believe the following are pretty standard throughout RISC OS:-

f1      Load Help file
CTRL-f2 Close window
f3      Save file
f4      Search
f5      Go to page (or line, in the case of Zap)
f6      ?
f7      ?
f8      Undo   
f9      Redo
f10     ?
f11     ?
f12     Command prompt
CTRL-f12 Task window

Paul

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/2/2008 11:40:17 AM
In article <ad9f1a994f.admin@snowstone.org.uk>,
   Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <4f98da7ba9invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>, Paul Vigay  wrote:

> > ctrl-f2 on RISC OS [closes a window]

> Huh. There's not many things like that on RISC OS I don't already know -
> but that's one! Is it the OS emulating a click on the close icon or do
> apps have to impliment it explicitly? (If the latter, I guess I'm going
> to have to update some of my programs!)

It works with Draw and SrcEdit (to take two at random) but with ArtWorks you
get a New Colour menu. Ctrl-F2 for Close (for the filer window) is included in
the function key strip with the RO6.10 release CD.

Style Guide p70:

"Where a function corresponds to one your application provides, you must use
the shortcut [in the list] rather than any other."

And ^F2 is on the list for Close window.

But if you don't provide that function "you can use its shortcut for some
other function"

As an end user I wish the latter bit forbade the use of those shortcuts except
where the function was clearly inappropriate for that application.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 12:09:44 PM
In article <4f99247d11invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> I believe the following are pretty standard throughout RISC OS:-

Style Guide p 70 - but not mandatory unless the applications developer wants
that function to be present and he provides a short-cut (function
abbreviated):

F1 Help
F2 Load
SF2 Insert
^F2 Close window
F3 Save
F4 Find/SearchR
F5 Goto
F6 Sort
F8 Undo
F9 Redo
F12 *Commands
SF12 Front Icon bar
^F12 Task window
S^F12 Shutdown

^U Delete line
^Z Clear selection
^C Copy
^X Cut
^V Paste
^D Insert date
^T Insert time
^A Select all
^B Bold
^I Italic

[There are more musts about Named keys &c]

NB If a program has those functions, and a key shortcut is used, it2 *must*
use the keys quoted. There are some programs that fail to follow this clear
instruction.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 1:53:24 PM
In article <4f992125ccjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f9913a1a6richtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
>    <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > [Resend of article posted early yesterday, but not apparently received.
> > Apologies if it now appears twice, but it seemed important to make sure
> > it ws received)


> > In article <4f982e7889nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
> >    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > In article <4f981044f2richtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
> > >    <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > > > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
> > > >    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F.
> > > > > Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > > > Either I couldn't find something that was there 

> > > > Correct!

> > > Meaningless! Try giving a clear response instead of just snipping one
> > > part of an "either..."

> > You are quite right. Not helpful and, indeed, incorrect.

> > I was quite convinced that JC had used the words 'hands-down', but
> > checking back I find I was wrong :-(

> > My apologies.

> None needed for me. ;-)

Aimed at David, not you.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/2/2008 2:46:00 PM
In article <4f9913a1a6richtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
<richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> [Resend of article posted early yesterday, but not apparently
> received. Apologies if it now appears twice, but it seemed important
> to make sure it ws received)

Yes, received twice but, as you say, better that than lost in the
aether.

> In article <4f982e7889nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
>    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <4f981044f2richtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
> >    <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > > In article <4f97b06929nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
> > >    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > > > In article <64dcb$4817085e$10481@news.teranews.com>, Paul F.
> > > > Johnson <paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > > John : Comments on the "hands down" yet?

> > > > Either I couldn't find something that was there 

> > > Correct!

> > Meaningless! Try giving a clear response instead of just snipping
> > one part of an "either..."

> You are quite right. Not helpful and, indeed, incorrect.

> I was quite convinced that JC had used the words 'hands-down', but
> checking back I find I was wrong :-(

> My apologies.

Thank you. It's a rare pleasure to find someone here who'll admit an
error. We all make mistakes but most try either the obfuscation
approach or the period of silent reflection method to dealing with
theirs.

Since it seems that I might have misinterpreted PFJs intent, perhaps I
ought to offer my own apologies.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/2/2008 3:53:59 PM
In article <euCSj.3130$WA5.1059@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 11:41:39 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> > In article <l1BSj.5990$b4.2422@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> >    <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:57:47 +0100, Qercus editor wrote:
> > 
> >> >> You've not managed to express any strengths that other OSes
> >> >> don't already do, and perhaps even do better, though.  What's
> >> >> the point of cataloguing its strengths if they're done just as
> >> >> well or better elsewhere?
> >> > 
> >> > They aren't.
> > 
> >> And yet you can't name any... fascinating.
> > 
> > They have already been named - as you well know. 

> Certainly things have been mentioned that other systems do as well or
> better, and there have been a couple of personal preferences
> mentioned - but no tangible strengths.

> If RISC OS has so many, I'm sure you could name a few more that are
> yet to be mentioned here.

Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at least
several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to anything on the
other platforms?

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/2/2008 3:58:51 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f9930acf1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> Style Guide p 70 - but not mandatory unless the applications developer
> wants that function to be present and he provides a short-cut (function
> abbreviated):

I must dig out my style guide and read it again. :-)

> NB If a program has those functions, and a key shortcut is used, it2
> *must* use the keys quoted. There are some programs that fail to follow
> this clear instruction.

There's no *must* about it, but it's simply good practice and will no doubt
please users of any software developed if you keep to convention.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/2/2008 3:58:54 PM
On 2 May 2008  Aaron <atimbrell@aol.com> wrote:

> On May 2, 1:00?am, druck <n...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:

[snip]

>> Now you might want to wind your neck in there. I was very drunk at
>> Wakefield two nights in a row, but not during the show and neither
>> was any other exhibitor.

> I apologise. I was given to understand that your condition on the
> stand on Saturday was due to an excessive fluid intake. Perhaps it was
> just 12 hour flu.

I had a long and helpful (to me) conversation with druck at about 
midday on the Saturday, and he showed no sign of illness or 
intoxication. I think your comment is undeserved, so I hope the 
apology is sincere.

With best wishes,

Peter.

-- 
Peter  \  /      zfc Er       \     Prestbury, Cheltenham,  Glos. GL52
Anne    \/ __            __    \                              England.
and     / /  \ | | |\ | /  _    \      http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
family /  \__/ \_/ | \| \__/     \______________ pnyoung@ormail.co.uk.
0
pnyoung1 (1656)
5/2/2008 3:59:41 PM
On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:

> Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at least
> several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to anything on the
> other platforms?

No.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/2/2008 4:04:26 PM
In article <alpine.LSU.1.10.0805021148480.13582@cube.home.local>,
   Tascam Holiday <tascam.holiday@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008, John Cartmell wrote:

> [Keyboard control of OS GUI]

> > I can see why it's handy with Windows - but with RISC OS so much
> > more can be done with the mouse. You seem to want a Windows kludge
> > (because it's needed in Windows) when it isn't needed for
> > proficient use in RISC OS. We now have keyboard manipulation of the
> > filer but I've yet to be convinced that much more is needed - but
> > do try to convince me that it is needed *in RISC OS*.

> Consider accessibility then, if you can't see beyond your mouse
> buttons. Ask yourself how easy it would be to create a usable RO
> solution for a disabled user who cannot push a mouse around.

> Windows and most other GUIs also have pretty good options for
> partially sighted users - one of my recently retired colleagues is
> registered blind though he has some vision, and it was quite amazing
> watching him work on his laptop with a combination of HUGE text and
> a very very clear speech synth which can read the contents of any
> text on the screen.

That's as may be but most users aren't partially sighted. My wife and I
get by quite well with a 19" TV but obviously it's rubbish compared
with the 60-odd" TV that would be needed by someone with poor eyesight.
Mountain bikes aren't much good for folk with only one leg (each);
doesn't mean they're a crap bit of kit. Come to think of it, with my
breathing problems, I couldn't manage a mountain bike any more but
could do with one of those electric scooter jobs. There you are: proves
that mobility scooters must be far better for whizzing down
mountainsides, scattering upland hikers to the winds.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/2/2008 4:09:09 PM
In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:

> > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at
> > least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to anything
> > on the other platforms?

> No.

Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining why
_you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who thinks it
isn't rather than a mortal.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/2/2008 4:14:36 PM
On Fri, 02 May 2008 17:14:36 +0100, David wrote:

> In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:
> 
>> > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at
>> > least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to anything
>> > on the other platforms?
> 
>> No.
> 
> Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining why
> _you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who thinks it
> isn't rather than a mortal.

Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are valuable 
and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/2/2008 4:23:34 PM
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:
> 
> > > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at
> > > least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to anything
> > > on the other platforms?
> 
> > No.
> 
> Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining why
> _you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who thinks it
> isn't rather than a mortal.

I'm not Rob but I don't find RISC OS menus to be any better than the right
click context menus in Windows.

It was stated that an advantage of RISC OS menus was that right clicking
on an item left the menu open - which Windows obviously can't do. On the
other hand, Windows has the advantage that submenus change side if they
get in the way of window furniture or another object in the window. RISC
OS menus don't do this.

So, I personally would rate them equally.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/2/2008 4:28:51 PM
In article <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 17:14:36 +0100, David wrote:

> > In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> > <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:
> > 
> >> > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at
> >> > least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to
> >> > anything on the other platforms?
> > 
> >> No.
> > 
> > Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining
> > why _you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who
> > thinks it isn't rather than a mortal.

> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are
> valuable and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.

Since I don't know all the other systems, I can hardly say what's
unique about the RO menu system. On the other hand, no part has to be
unique for the system to be better than that on other operating systems.

As you obviously do know every other operating system, perhaps you
might like to explain why each of them has a better menuing system than
that found on RO.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/2/2008 4:31:18 PM
In article <4f99357cf0richtnews@uwclub.net>,
   Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > > My apologies.
> > None needed for me. ;-)
> Aimed at David, not you.

Snatching a sour taste out of the jaws of goodwill? ;-(

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 4:39:15 PM
In article <gemini.k091p900k1fiy006s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray
Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> > In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> > <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:
> > 
> > > > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in
> > > > at least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to
> > > > anything on the other platforms?
> > 
> > > No.
> > 
> > Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining
> > why _you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who
> > thinks it isn't rather than a mortal.

> I'm not Rob but I don't find RISC OS menus to be any better than the
> right click context menus in Windows.

Are all Window apps & folder menu options now available by means of the
'right click'? Or do you still have to go to the top of the window for
some options? If the latter, then that argument fails.

> It was stated that an advantage of RISC OS menus was that right
> clicking on an item left the menu open - which Windows obviously
> can't do. On the other hand, Windows has the advantage that submenus
> change side if they get in the way of window furniture or another
> object in the window. RISC OS menus don't do this.

> So, I personally would rate them equally.

Well, if you prefer to open a menu to several levels deep half a dozen
times - as long as the submenus open on the other side to where you
might expect - and make twice as many clicks, rather than occasionally
having to move a menu but being able to make several selections before
the menu disappears, that's up to you; I find it very annoying (on the
Mac, I have to say here - haven't used Windows since the 95 version
some while back).

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/2/2008 4:41:04 PM
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> 
> > I'm not Rob but I don't find RISC OS menus to be any better than the
> > right click context menus in Windows.
> 
> Are all Window apps & folder menu options now available by means of the
> 'right click'? Or do you still have to go to the top of the window for
> some options? If the latter, then that argument fails.

Windows has the advantage of two menu systems. The 'top of the window'
menus are there, but accessed by the left button as usual. Right clicking
an object (or window) opens up a context menu for that object alone.

Microsoft are also moving over to a tabbed or 'ribbon' system of menus at
the top of the window. Each context tab reveals a full width ribbon of
options. Office 2007 uses it and it's quite intuitive. A big advantage is
not having to delve down into multiple submenus.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/2/2008 5:01:06 PM
In article <4f993c2a38invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <4f9930acf1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > Style Guide p 70 - but not mandatory unless the applications developer
> > wants that function to be present and he provides a short-cut (function
> > abbreviated):

> I must dig out my style guide and read it again. :-)

> > NB If a program has those functions, and a key shortcut is used, it
> > *must* use the keys quoted. There are some programs that fail to follow
> > this clear instruction.

> There's no *must* about it, but it's simply good practice and will no doubt
> please users of any software developed if you keep to convention.

The "must" is the wording in the Style Guide. It doesn't say should or may or
can - but *must*.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 5:06:54 PM
In article <gemini.k093e500lceup006s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray
Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> > 
> > > I'm not Rob but I don't find RISC OS menus to be any better than
> > > the right click context menus in Windows.
> > 
> > Are all Window apps & folder menu options now available by means of
> > the 'right click'? Or do you still have to go to the top of the
> > window for some options? If the latter, then that argument fails.

> Windows has the advantage of two menu systems. The 'top of the
> window' menus are there, but accessed by the left button as usual.
> Right clicking an object (or window) opens up a context menu for that
> object alone.

And RO has the advantage of one menu system....

Of course, being a Windows fanboy, you're going to claim each Windows
disadvantage to be an advantage, aren't you, whether it is actually any
better or, in this case, considerably worse.

I would say it's a distinct advantage not to have to move the mouse to
the top of the window but merely to click where you are. I would also
say it's a distinct advantage to have one dedicated mouse button to pop
the menu up rather than using the select equivalent to pull a menu down
(after a possibly large mouse movement) but sometimes being able to use
the other button to pop a menu up.

> Microsoft are also moving over to a tabbed or 'ribbon' system of
> menus at the top of the window. Each context tab reveals a full width
> ribbon of options. Office 2007 uses it and it's quite intuitive. A
> big advantage is not having to delve down into multiple submenus.

Sounds like a horizontal version of the submenu idea.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/2/2008 5:14:57 PM
In a dim and distant universe <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> enlightened us thusly:

> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are valuable
> and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.

Right-clicking on multiple menu icons without closing the window behind
you, for starters.

Plus, menus automatically expanding to the screen height when there are
loads of options. One thing which seriously hacks me off about Windows is
that too many options (such as font selectors or printer driver menus etc)
have piddly little lists that you're forever scrolling to find the option
you require, despite running in a 1920x1200 screen mode.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/2/2008 5:27:22 PM
In a dim and distant universe
<gemini.k091p900k1fiy006s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> other hand, Windows has the advantage that submenus change side if they
> get in the way of window furniture or another object in the window. RISC
> OS menus don't do this.

There's a tiny RISC OS module which does that for you. I suspect now that
ROOL have released the source code, this kind of thing would be trivial to
add into RISC OS anyway.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/2/2008 5:31:50 PM
In a dim and distant universe
<gemini.k091p900k1fiy006s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> on an item left the menu open - which Windows obviously can't do. On the
> other hand, Windows has the advantage that submenus change side if they
> get in the way of window furniture or another object in the window. RISC
> OS menus don't do this.

Just remembered....

SmartMenu by Dick Tanis - http://www.theochem.ru.nl/~dtanis/riscos.html

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/2/2008 5:32:32 PM
In article <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 17:14:36 +0100, David wrote:

> > In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> > <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:
> > 
> >> > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at
> >> > least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to anything
> >> > on the other platforms?
> > 
> >> No.
> > 
> > Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining why
> > _you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who thinks it
> > isn't rather than a mortal.

> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are valuable 
> and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.

For starters - and as a simple statement and not as a claim for knockabout
bad-mouthers to maul:

Draw/Drawfile guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines - and the
consequent general availability/production of vector graphics across all
appropriate applications;
BBC BASIC and assembler language guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines;
MENU for menus in context in place;
SELECT and ADJUST options;
Ability to OLE out, modify, drop in a new application, modify, save back to
the original place - all without needing to save interim (or even any) version
and all without needlessly bringing windows to the front.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 7:06:43 PM
In article <384c7b984f.noreply@chiemgau-net.de>, Alex' A. Interrants
<ausserstorfer@mail.com> wrote:
> In der Nachricht <4f985a4542miyuki@no.spam.here> Chika
>           <miyuki@spam-no-way.invalid> hat geschrieben:

> >> > PC Advisor have published a piece about the best operating systems:
> >> > Linux, Mac OS X, Vista, and XP. Of course they have had to include
> >> > two Windows versions because so many people are rejecting Vista.
> > 
> >> Internet Explorer?
> > 
> > Wash your mouth out! ;)
> > 
> >> Firefox?

> [total wrong interpretation of just two words]

Then you need to be a little clearer.

> Who needs an OS today if nearby everything runs via the webbrowser.
> This was my meaning. I believe that futuristic computers must be online
> around the clock because they aren't useable without it! You won't need
> an OS, you'll just need a webbrowser. This will be the future. The
> reason for this is, that the companies and governments can check you
> everytime.

You know, I heard this argument at least a decade ago. It would be nice if
it were actually true, but there are too many vested interests that like
the status quo and the money it generates.

> The here described war is out-of-time. Most people know how to use the
> webbrowser of their computers and nothing else more. So they send
> emails over webpages, write textes via homepages etc.

> The world of webbrowsers are the really OSes for people today.

Yes and no. The current project I'm being roped into would tend to suggest
that web browser setups are merely the poor relation of portal technology
which is where the money seems to be being made right now, with all the
gubbins that goes with it, from virtualisation to thin, embedded clients.
To an extent, Acorn had the right of it back in the days of the
Netstation. A pity they didn't hang around long enough to reap the profit,
though I suspect that one or two folk will still be around to say "I told
ya so".

Hmm... bit noisy here, innit?

-- 
 //\  // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
//  \//  Mitsuo... Menda... naha naha...

.... Pets just die on you, where's the fun in that?
0
miyuki1 (1402)
5/2/2008 8:03:21 PM
In message <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>
          Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are valuable 
> and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.

Let's have a go:

You can pick up a menu and move it to somewhere more convenient.

You can Adjust-click and item to action it and keep the menu open
do do another action immediately.

If there are more items than can be displayed on the screen, you
automatically get a scroll bar.

Any more offers?

Dave

0
davehigton (2157)
5/2/2008 8:07:25 PM
In message <gemini.k093e500lceup006s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>
          Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Windows has the advantage of two menu systems. The 'top of the window'
> menus are there, but accessed by the left button as usual. Right clicking
> an object (or window) opens up a context menu for that object alone.
> 
> Microsoft are also moving over to a tabbed or 'ribbon' system of menus at
> the top of the window. Each context tab reveals a full width ribbon of
> options. Office 2007 uses it and it's quite intuitive. A big advantage is
> not having to delve down into multiple submenus.

These Windoze features are a nuisance.  The menu bars and ribbons
consume window space, of which there never seems to be enough.

I prefer an editor window with minimal furniture and maximal
editing space.  The RISC OS menu system is the best of those I
have used.

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
5/2/2008 8:11:49 PM
In message <4f98da376fjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <5f72d6984f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> 
> > then Alt-F4 to close the window and exit.
> 
> So you want an alternative to select-X?

What is select-X?

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
5/2/2008 8:13:47 PM
In message <ad9f1a994f.admin@snowstone.org.uk>
          Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <4f98da7ba9invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>, Paul
> Vigay  wrote:
> 
> > ctrl-f2 on RISC OS [closes a window]
> 
> Huh. There's not many things like that on RISC OS I don't already know -
> but that's one!

Nor did I.  Thanks, Paul.

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
5/2/2008 8:15:30 PM
You're still mainly listing features that either aren't really unique or
aren't really advantageous.

In <4f994d5c82john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Draw/Drawfile guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines - and the
> consequent general availability/production of vector graphics across
> all appropriate applications;

RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate applications for
Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is a more flexible format
than Draw and the renderers all have anti-aliasing. You can even use SVG
for filer icons in all the main desktops. But AFAIK Vista still uses an
extended version of the .ico format, similar to !Sprites.

> BBC BASIC and assembler language guaranteed available in all RISC OS
> machines;

They're just not good enough to go touting as an advantage of RISC OS. I
doubt even games programmers use much assembler any more on the main
platforms. With such fast processors, compiler optimisations and most of
the performance-critical work off-loaded to the graphics card, it's not
worth the extra effort over C/C++.

As good as BBC BASIC is compared to other BASICs, it's still seriously
lacking in proper memory management and being able to interact with the
OS without passing magic numbers to low level commands like SYS. Python,
for instance, is a much more sophisticated language and is easier to
install (and you can write standalone python executables at least for
Windows anyway) and has richer sets of GUI libraries on other platforms.

> MENU for menus in context in place;

Windows and Linux consistently have context menus on the right button.
RISC OS has the advantage of not having to move the mouse to the top of
the window. But the others have the advantage that when you want the
context menu you get just the context menu without the main menu putting
another level of navigation in the way.

> SELECT and ADJUST options;

Yes, that's good and probably unique, but it's not much to boast about
compared to being able to run "Web 2.0", the latest video formats etc
etc is it?

> Ability to OLE out, modify, drop in a new application, modify, save
> back to the original place - all without needing to save interim (or
> even any) version and all without needlessly bringing windows to the
> front.

Even the most notoriously unconfigurable Windows-like window manager for
Linux, GNOME's metacity, has an option not to automatically raise
windows. Most of them have lots of other features not in RISC OS by
default, like multiple desktops, edge snapping, "shading" (rolling up)
and one-way maximising.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/2/2008 8:20:07 PM
In article <448053994f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In message <4f98da376fjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
>           John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <5f72d6984f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
> >    Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > then Alt-F4 to close the window and exit.
> > 
> > So you want an alternative to select-X?

> What is select-X?

Click SELECT on the close button of a window. The same as ^F2 where the
application allows it.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 8:44:03 PM
In article <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
   Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> You're still mainly listing features that either aren't really unique or
> aren't really advantageous.

> In <4f994d5c82john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > Draw/Drawfile guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines - and the
> > consequent general availability/production of vector graphics across
> > all appropriate applications;

> RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate applications for
> Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is a more flexible format
> than Draw and the renderers all have anti-aliasing. You can even use SVG
> for filer icons in all the main desktops. But AFAIK Vista still uses an
> extended version of the .ico format, similar to !Sprites.

It will be a very long time (if ever) before you automatically get an SVG
graphic to export from every application that produces eg tables, charts, &c.

> > BBC BASIC and assembler language guaranteed available in all RISC OS
> > machines;

> They're just not good enough to go touting as an advantage of RISC OS. I
> doubt even games programmers use much assembler any more on the main
> platforms. With such fast processors, compiler optimisations and most of
> the performance-critical work off-loaded to the graphics card, it's not
> worth the extra effort over C/C++.

It is worth it for the educational and quick and easy implementation.

> As good as BBC BASIC is compared to other BASICs, it's still seriously
> lacking in proper memory management and being able to interact with the
> OS without passing magic numbers to low level commands like SYS. Python,
> for instance, is a much more sophisticated language and is easier to
> install (and you can write standalone python executables at least for
> Windows anyway) and has richer sets of GUI libraries on other platforms.

As above.

> > MENU for menus in context in place;

> Windows and Linux consistently have context menus on the right button.
> RISC OS has the advantage of not having to move the mouse to the top of
> the window. But the others have the advantage that when you want the
> context menu you get just the context menu without the main menu putting
> another level of navigation in the way.

I consider your advantages to be a disadvantage - but users preferences vary.

> > SELECT and ADJUST options;

> Yes, that's good and probably unique, but it's not much to boast about
> compared to being able to run "Web 2.0", the latest video formats etc
> etc is it?

Yes. Many people don't want Web 2.0 but practically every computer user needs
efficient use of the desktop.

> > Ability to OLE out, modify, drop in a new application, modify, save
> > back to the original place - all without needing to save interim (or
> > even any) version and all without needlessly bringing windows to the
> > front.

> Even the most notoriously unconfigurable Windows-like window manager for
> Linux, GNOME's metacity, has an option not to automatically raise
> windows. Most of them have lots of other features not in RISC OS by
> default, like multiple desktops, edge snapping, "shading" (rolling up)
> and one-way maximising.

As standard?
Doing all that I describe?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 8:50:07 PM
On 28 Apr, editor@qercus.com wrote:
> PC Advisor have published a piece about the best operating systems: Linux,
> Mac OS X, Vista, and XP. Of course they have had to include two Windows
> versions because so many people are rejecting Vista.

> 	http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=12839
> 	Linux, Mac OS X, Vista and XP: head-to-head News - PC Advisor

> I'd like to publish the missing essays on why RO 6.10 or RO 5.13 beats the
> others - and send a copy of the published piece to the editor of PC Advisor.
> If anyone wants to add their contribution to those of Michael DeAgonia,
> Preston Gralla, David Ramel, and James Turner then please get in touch with
> me.

Thanks for all the contributions to this. I didn't get an offer to write the
article but I did get some short notes direct in addition to the contributions
in the thread. Despite the pessimism - mainly from the usual awkward squad -
we seem to have a useful story to tell about an OS/GUI/collection of
applications that have a set of advantages that make the platform worth using
alongside or instead of others.

More direct contributions over the next week will be welcome.

Many thanks,

-- 
John Cartmell - editor AT qercus.com  www.qercus.com   www.acornuser.com
	Qercus/Acorn User: reporting on computers & computing since 1982
	Qercus/Acorn User, 30 Finnybank Rd Sale M33 6LR  == 0845 006 8822
0
editor605 (623)
5/2/2008 9:10:43 PM
In <4f9956d37ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
>    Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> > You're still mainly listing features that either aren't really
> > unique or aren't really advantageous.
> 
> > In <4f994d5c82john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
> > John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > Draw/Drawfile guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines - and
> > > the consequent general availability/production of vector graphics
> > > across all appropriate applications;
> 
> > RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate applications
> > for Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is a more flexible
> > format than Draw and the renderers all have anti-aliasing. You can
> > even use SVG for filer icons in all the main desktops. But AFAIK
> > Vista still uses an extended version of the .ico format, similar
> > to !Sprites.
> 
> It will be a very long time (if ever) before you automatically get an
> SVG graphic to export from every application that produces eg tables,
> charts, &c.

RISC OS doesn't automatically do it either. The programmer has to
implement it. Meanwhile everything that can print automatically gets PDF
export.

> > > BBC BASIC and assembler language guaranteed available in all RISC
> > > OS machines;
> 
> > They're just not good enough to go touting as an advantage of RISC
> > OS. I doubt even games programmers use much assembler any more on
> > the main platforms. With such fast processors, compiler
> > optimisations and most of the performance-critical work off-loaded
> > to the graphics card, it's not worth the extra effort over C/C++.
> 
> It is worth it for the educational and quick and easy implementation.

Possibly educational if you intend to get a job doing low level
programming for mobile phones or PDAs. I don't see why the embedded
assembler in BBC BASIC makes things much easier though. You have to
learn about OPT and CALL etc. How easy is it to find books about that
sort of thing these days?

> > As good as BBC BASIC is compared to other BASICs, it's still
> > seriously lacking in proper memory management and being able to
> > interact with the OS without passing magic numbers to low level
> > commands like SYS. Python, for instance, is a much more
> > sophisticated language and is easier to install (and you can write
> > standalone python executables at least for Windows anyway) and has
> > richer sets of GUI libraries on other platforms.
> 
> As above.

BASIC is really not a worthwhile educational exercise, not even for
general programming principles. It teaches bad habits.

> > > MENU for menus in context in place;
> 
> > Windows and Linux consistently have context menus on the right
> > button. RISC OS has the advantage of not having to move the mouse
> > to the top of the window. But the others have the advantage that
> > when you want the context menu you get just the context menu
> > without the main menu putting another level of navigation in the
> > way.
> 
> I consider your advantages to be a disadvantage - but users
> preferences vary.

You really like having to navigate an extra level of menu instead of
having the context menu open immediately?

> > > SELECT and ADJUST options;
> 
> > Yes, that's good and probably unique, but it's not much to boast
> > about compared to being able to run "Web 2.0", the latest video
> > formats etc etc is it?
> 
> Yes. Many people don't want Web 2.0 but practically every computer
> user needs efficient use of the desktop.

It's just a very little aid to efficiency though. Not being able to do
certain things at all, eg watch a DVD or youtube, is more of a problem
than not making quite such good use of a mouse.

> > > Ability to OLE out, modify, drop in a new application, modify,
> > > save back to the original place - all without needing to save
> > > interim (or even any) version and all without needlessly bringing
> > > windows to the front.
> 
> > Even the most notoriously unconfigurable Windows-like window
> > manager for Linux, GNOME's metacity, has an option not to
> > automatically raise windows. Most of them have lots of other
> > features not in RISC OS by default, like multiple desktops, edge
> > snapping, "shading" (rolling up) and one-way maximising.
> 
> As standard?

Yes.

> Doing all that I describe?

I don't know about the OLE, I just meant the window management.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/2/2008 9:21:42 PM
In message <20080502222142.0d112ebc@tiber.realh.co.uk>
          Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:

> In <4f9956d37ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
> >    Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > As good as BBC BASIC is compared to other BASICs, it's still
> > > seriously lacking in proper memory management and being able to
> > > interact with the OS without passing magic numbers to low level
> > > commands like SYS. Python, for instance, is a much more
> > > sophisticated language and is easier to install (and you can write
> > > standalone python executables at least for Windows anyway) and has
> > > richer sets of GUI libraries on other platforms.

Just out of curiousity, in what sense is Python easier to install as BBC
Basic?
 
> > > Windows and Linux consistently have context menus on the right
> > > button. RISC OS has the advantage of not having to move the mouse
> > > to the top of the window. But the others have the advantage that
> > > when you want the context menu you get just the context menu
> > > without the main menu putting another level of navigation in the
> > > way.
> > 
> > I consider your advantages to be a disadvantage - but users
> > preferences vary.
> 
> You really like having to navigate an extra level of menu instead of
> having the context menu open immediately?
> 

Some (like me) don't mind having an extra level of menu right under the mouse
pointer, others (like any Windows user) doesn't mind to carefully aim at that
narrow strip between title bar and work area of a Window everytime they need
a main function of their application. It's really a matter of personal
preference.
0
h.palmroth (59)
5/2/2008 9:57:28 PM
In article <20080502222142.0d112ebc@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
<h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> In <4f9956d37ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
> >    <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> > > You're still mainly listing features that either aren't really unique
> > > or aren't really advantageous.
> > 
> > > In <4f994d5c82john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> > > <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > > Draw/Drawfile guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines - and the
> > > > consequent general availability/production of vector graphics across
> > > > all appropriate applications;
> > 
> > > RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate applications for
> > > Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is a more flexible format
> > > than Draw and the renderers all have anti-aliasing. You can even use
> > > SVG for filer icons in all the main desktops. But AFAIK Vista still
> > > uses an extended version of the .ico format, similar to !Sprites.
> > 
> > It will be a very long time (if ever) before you automatically get an SVG
> > graphic to export from every application that produces eg tables, charts,
> > &c.

> RISC OS doesn't automatically do it either. The programmer has to implement
> it. Meanwhile everything that can print automatically gets PDF export.

Wrong use of automatically. If you buy or download free a RISC OS application
that produces graphics then you can be sure they will be in the drawfile
format. The Windows equivalent will likely be in bitmapped format.

> > > > BBC BASIC and assembler language guaranteed available in all RISC OS
> > > > machines;
> > 
> > > They're just not good enough to go touting as an advantage of RISC OS.
> > > I doubt even games programmers use much assembler any more on the main
> > > platforms. With such fast processors, compiler optimisations and most
> > > of the performance-critical work off-loaded to the graphics card, it's
> > > not worth the extra effort over C/C++.
> > 
> > It is worth it for the educational and quick and easy implementation.

> Possibly educational if you intend to get a job doing low level programming
> for mobile phones or PDAs.

You are confusing education with training. Don't feel bad about that as
nearly the whole of the educational establishment have made the same stupid
mistake and charged us greatly for reducing their educational opportunities.
Education is about understanding and being responsible for that
understanding. It's almost impossible to teach that using a modern Windows
machine (and most don't even think to try) and it comes naturally using RISC
OS.

> I don't see why the embedded assembler in BBC BASIC makes things much
> easier though. You have to learn about OPT and CALL etc. How easy is it to
> find books about that sort of thing these days?

Take out a subscription to Qercus. We'll let you have the back copies of the
series as a free gift.

> > > As good as BBC BASIC is compared to other BASICs, it's still seriously
> > > lacking in proper memory management and being able to interact with the
> > > OS without passing magic numbers to low level commands like SYS.
> > > Python, for instance, is a much more sophisticated language and is
> > > easier to install (and you can write standalone python executables at
> > > least for Windows anyway) and has richer sets of GUI libraries on other
> > > platforms.
> > 
> > As above.

> BASIC is really not a worthwhile educational exercise, not even for general
> programming principles. It teaches bad habits.

It can teach bad habits if it's taught badly. If you're talking about teaching
C/C++/Python to all secondary school kids then I'd say that you're stark,
staring nuts. But can I watch you try! ;-)

Hint: LOGO & BASIC - plus some techniques of good programming practice through
good practice using Draw! ;-)

> > > > MENU for menus in context in place;
> > 
> > > Windows and Linux consistently have context menus on the right button.
> > > RISC OS has the advantage of not having to move the mouse to the top of
> > > the window. But the others have the advantage that when you want the
> > > context menu you get just the context menu without the main menu
> > > putting another level of navigation in the way.
> > 
> > I consider your advantages to be a disadvantage - but users preferences
> > vary.

> You really like having to navigate an extra level of menu instead of having
> the context menu open immediately?

Jump too much and you quickly lose responsibility for your work. When things
happen 'by magic' you lose the ability to properly understand what is
happening.

> > > > SELECT and ADJUST options;
> > 
> > > Yes, that's good and probably unique, but it's not much to boast about
> > > compared to being able to run "Web 2.0", the latest video formats etc
> > > etc is it?
> > 
> > Yes. Many people don't want Web 2.0 but practically every computer user
> > needs efficient use of the desktop.

> It's just a very little aid to efficiency though. Not being able to do
> certain things at all, eg watch a DVD or youtube, is more of a problem than
> not making quite such good use of a mouse.

It's a *massive* aid to efficiency.

> > > > Ability to OLE out, modify, drop in a new application, modify, save
> > > > back to the original place - all without needing to save interim (or
> > > > even any) version and all without needlessly bringing windows to the
> > > > front.
> > 
> > > Even the most notoriously unconfigurable Windows-like window manager
> > > for Linux, GNOME's metacity, has an option not to automatically raise
> > > windows. Most of them have lots of other features not in RISC OS by
> > > default, like multiple desktops, edge snapping, "shading" (rolling up)
> > > and one-way maximising.
> > 
> > As standard?

> Yes.

> > Doing all that I describe?

> I don't know about the OLE, I just meant the window management.

I meant the whole process. If it's possible then all those experts in Windows,
that I've demo'd RISC OS to, have never encountered it.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 9:59:40 PM
In message <gemini.k093e500lceup006s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>
          Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Microsoft are also moving over to a tabbed or 'ribbon' system of menus at
> the top of the window. Each context tab reveals a full width ribbon of
> options. Office 2007 uses it and it's quite intuitive. A big advantage is
> not having to delve down into multiple submenus.

Which they are finally admitting was a bad idea - they are bringing in 
an optional search to find commands that are no longer in intuitive 
places.  I use Excel a lot in my work, and although I get on with it 
as a program, the ribbon interface is a real pain.  Many options are 
where you would expect to find them, some options just can't be 
located no matter how many times you look.

-- 
Grahame Parish
maillistDOTparishATmillersHYPHENwayDOTnet
Aylesbury, Bucks. HP19 (UK)
0
spamtrap13 (277)
5/2/2008 10:08:36 PM
In message <gemini.k091p900k1fiy006s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>
          Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


> I'm not Rob but I don't find RISC OS menus to be any better than the right
> click context menus in Windows.

> It was stated that an advantage of RISC OS menus was that right clicking
> on an item left the menu open - which Windows obviously can't do. On the
> other hand, Windows has the advantage that submenus change side if they
> get in the way of window furniture or another object in the window. RISC
> OS menus don't do this.

> So, I personally would rate them equally.

One major advantage of RISC OS menus over Windows is that they don't 
disappear whenever another application steals focus. I hate the way 
Windows apps do this - you're half way through navigating the start 
menu to reach an option when something decides it wants your attention 
and closes the start menu - the same happens with context menus too.

How many times have you been caught out when typing in a password into 
a dialogue and another app steals focus, sometimes leaving you 
entering your password undisguised in another window? Or typing in 
Word, about to press Enter when a dialogue pops up from somewhere else 
and takes the Enter keypress to carry out an action that you didn't 
want, and sometimes didn't even see happen?

I use Windows every day and I come across any number of these 
annoyances where the computer 'knows best' and disregards what the 
user wants or expects to happen and goes off to follow its own agenda.

-- 
Grahame Parish
maillistDOTparishATmillersHYPHENwayDOTnet
Aylesbury, Bucks. HP19 (UK)
0
spamtrap13 (277)
5/2/2008 10:08:36 PM
On Fri, 02 May 2008 18:27:22 +0100, Paul Vigay wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe
> <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> enlightened us thusly:
> 
>> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are
>> valuable and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.
> 
> Right-clicking on multiple menu icons without closing the window behind
> you, for starters.

Yes, we've touched on this.  GTK and Qt menus have a "tear off" system 
which is conceptually very similar, although they're optimised for 
slightly different things.  RISC OS's way is better if you want to select 
two or three items, tear offs are better if you want to select more than 
that, or if you're going to be returning to the menu shortly after doing 
something else.  Both ways of solving the problem have their advantages, 
but they essentially both achieve the same thing.

> Plus, menus automatically expanding to the screen height when there are
> loads of options.

I can't think of a GUI that doesn't do this past Windows's.  (Assuming 
you're referring to combo boxes, rather than menus.)

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/2/2008 10:37:41 PM
On Fri, 02 May 2008 20:06:43 +0100, John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 May 2008 17:14:36 +0100, David wrote:
> 
>> > In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
>> > <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:
>> > 
>> >> > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at
>> >> > least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to
>> >> > anything on the other platforms?
>> > 
>> >> No.
>> > 
>> > Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining why
>> > _you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who thinks
>> > it isn't rather than a mortal.
> 
>> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are
>> valuable and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.
> 
> For starters - and as a simple statement and not as a claim for
> knockabout bad-mouthers to maul:
> 
> Draw/Drawfile guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines - and the
> consequent general availability/production of vector graphics across all
> appropriate applications;
> BBC BASIC and assembler language guaranteed available in all RISC OS
> machines; 

What do these have to do with menus?

> MENU for menus in context in place;
> SELECT and ADJUST options;

I'm trying to workout what's unique about this.  And failing.

> Ability to OLE out, modify, drop in a new application, modify, save back
> to the original place - all without needing to save interim (or even
> any) version and all without needlessly bringing windows to the front.

Actually, Windows's OLE system gets this all right: the embedded 
application can put its own tools and widgets inside the embedding 
application should it chose to.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/2/2008 10:39:29 PM
On Fri, 02 May 2008 21:07:25 +0100, Dave Higton wrote:

> You can pick up a menu and move it to somewhere more convenient.
> 
> You can Adjust-click and item to action it and keep the menu open do do
> another action immediately.

Both of these problems are solved by tear-offs in GTK and Qt.

> If there are more items than can be displayed on the screen, you
> automatically get a scroll bar.

Gtk (and I believe Qt can, but I've never personally done it) can be 
configured to do this should the user wish it.  By default, menus are 
scrollable but without scrollbars.  The GNOME Human Interface Guidelines 
strongly suggest against menus with hundreds of options in, suggesting 
that there is most likely a more efficient GUI - I tend to agree.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/2/2008 10:42:58 PM
On 2 May 2008 Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <4f98da7ba9invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
> Paul Vigay  wrote:

>> ctrl-f2 on RISC OS [closes a window]

> Huh. There's not many things like that on RISC OS I don't already know -
> but that's one! Is it the OS emulating a click on the close icon or do
> apps have to impliment it explicitly? (If the latter, I guess I'm going
> to have to update some of my programs!)

You have to implement it yourself in every application, because the 
GUI has no automatic support for keyboard navigation. If it did, such 
keystrokes would work consistently in every application with no effort 
from the programmer.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/2/2008 10:45:06 PM
In <5ffe5c994f%h.palmroth@cne.de>
Holger Palmroth <h.palmroth@gmx.de> wrote:

> In message <20080502222142.0d112ebc@tiber.realh.co.uk>
>           Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In <4f9956d37ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
> > John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
> > >    Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > > As good as BBC BASIC is compared to other BASICs, it's still
> > > > seriously lacking in proper memory management and being able to
> > > > interact with the OS without passing magic numbers to low level
> > > > commands like SYS. Python, for instance, is a much more
> > > > sophisticated language and is easier to install (and you can
> > > > write standalone python executables at least for Windows
> > > > anyway) and has richer sets of GUI libraries on other platforms.
> 
> Just out of curiousity, in what sense is Python easier to install as
> BBC Basic?

Oops, I meant it's easier to install python on other platforms than RISC
OS. You can assume it'll be available in Linux except in specialist
pared-down servers and embedded roles.

> > > > Windows and Linux consistently have context menus on the right
> > > > button. RISC OS has the advantage of not having to move the
> > > > mouse to the top of the window. But the others have the
> > > > advantage that when you want the context menu you get just the
> > > > context menu without the main menu putting another level of
> > > > navigation in the way.
> > > 
> > > I consider your advantages to be a disadvantage - but users
> > > preferences vary.
> > 
> > You really like having to navigate an extra level of menu instead of
> > having the context menu open immediately?
> 
> Some (like me) don't mind having an extra level of menu right under
> the mouse pointer, others (like any Windows user) doesn't mind to
> carefully aim at that narrow strip between title bar and work area of
> a Window everytime they need a main function of their application.
> It's really a matter of personal preference.

Ah, but there's a difference between your perfectly reasonable opinion
that the extra level of menu is less of a disadvantage than the menu
bar, and John's claim that the extra level of menu is an advantage,
followed up by some weird ramblings about jumping and magic.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/2/2008 10:54:24 PM
In article <d45a61994f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
   druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 2 May 2008 Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:
> > In message <4f98da7ba9invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
> > Paul Vigay  wrote:

> >> ctrl-f2 on RISC OS [closes a window]

> > Huh. There's not many things like that on RISC OS I don't already know -
> > but that's one! Is it the OS emulating a click on the close icon or do
> > apps have to impliment it explicitly? (If the latter, I guess I'm going
> > to have to update some of my programs!)

> You have to implement it yourself in every application, because the 
> GUI has no automatic support for keyboard navigation. If it did, such 
> keystrokes would work consistently in every application with no effort 
> from the programmer.

Whilst the filer keyboard navigation can be implemented (has been) that's
because it won't come into conflict with applications - with the possible
exception of those that appear to 'steal' key-presses(?). Trying to (now)
implement windows navigation will fall foul of the use applications make even
of those keyboard shortcuts listed in the Style Guide. I presume (I'm open to
clarification or even polite flat-out contradiction!) that there is now no
chance of such being implemented because of that.

-- 
	John
0
john233 (5650)
5/2/2008 11:42:52 PM
In <4f995d3166john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <20080502222142.0d112ebc@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
> <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> > In <4f9956d37ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> > <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony
> > > Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > You're still mainly listing features that either aren't really
> > > > unique or aren't really advantageous.
> > > 
> > > > In <4f994d5c82john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> > > > <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > Draw/Drawfile guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines -
> > > > > and the consequent general availability/production of vector
> > > > > graphics across all appropriate applications;
> > > 
> > > > RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate
> > > > applications for Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is
> > > > a more flexible format than Draw and the renderers all have
> > > > anti-aliasing. You can even use SVG for filer icons in all the
> > > > main desktops. But AFAIK Vista still uses an extended version
> > > > of the .ico format, similar to !Sprites.
> > > 
> > > It will be a very long time (if ever) before you automatically
> > > get an SVG graphic to export from every application that produces
> > > eg tables, charts, &c.
> 
> > RISC OS doesn't automatically do it either. The programmer has to
> > implement it. Meanwhile everything that can print automatically
> > gets PDF export.
> 
> Wrong use of automatically. If you buy or download free a RISC OS
> application that produces graphics then you can be sure they will be
> in the drawfile format.

Including, say, Photodesk?

> The Windows equivalent will likely be in
> bitmapped format.
> 
> > > > > BBC BASIC and assembler language guaranteed available in all
> > > > > RISC OS machines;
> > > 
> > > > They're just not good enough to go touting as an advantage of
> > > > RISC OS. I doubt even games programmers use much assembler any
> > > > more on the main platforms. With such fast processors, compiler
> > > > optimisations and most of the performance-critical work
> > > > off-loaded to the graphics card, it's not worth the extra
> > > > effort over C/C++.
> > > 
> > > It is worth it for the educational and quick and easy
> > > implementation.
> 
> > Possibly educational if you intend to get a job doing low level
> > programming for mobile phones or PDAs.
> 
> You are confusing education with training. Don't feel bad about that
> as nearly the whole of the educational establishment have made the
> same stupid mistake and charged us greatly for reducing their
> educational opportunities. Education is about understanding and being
> responsible for that understanding. It's almost impossible to teach
> that using a modern Windows machine (and most don't even think to
> try) and it comes naturally using RISC OS.

Why can't you be "educated" instead of "trained" by using Visual Studio
instead of BBC BASIC/ARM assembler? You can learn general principles in
both, and you'll also learn platform specifics in both. Surely it's
better if those platform specifics are useful as well as the principles.

> > I don't see why the embedded assembler in BBC BASIC makes things
> > much easier though. You have to learn about OPT and CALL etc. How
> > easy is it to find books about that sort of thing these days?
> 
> Take out a subscription to Qercus. We'll let you have the back copies
> of the series as a free gift.
> 
> > > > As good as BBC BASIC is compared to other BASICs, it's still
> > > > seriously lacking in proper memory management and being able to
> > > > interact with the OS without passing magic numbers to low level
> > > > commands like SYS. Python, for instance, is a much more
> > > > sophisticated language and is easier to install (and you can
> > > > write standalone python executables at least for Windows
> > > > anyway) and has richer sets of GUI libraries on other platforms.
> > > 
> > > As above.
> 
> > BASIC is really not a worthwhile educational exercise, not even for
> > general programming principles. It teaches bad habits.
> 
> It can teach bad habits if it's taught badly.

The trouble is it's almost impossible to teach some essential good
habits with BASIC. Other languages include user-definable structured
data types and all the decent books I've read cover them at an early
stage. That's just not available with BASIC. How can you teach any OOP
with BASIC?

> If you're talking about
> teaching C/C++/Python to all secondary school kids then I'd say that
> you're stark, staring nuts. But can I watch you try! ;-)

C/C++ aren't really suitable as first languages, but python is. I bet
you've just dismissed it, seeing as it isn't native to RISC OS.
Honestly, it's as easy as BASIC to pick up, but it's powerful enough to
be used for large applications without losing code maintainability.

> Hint: LOGO & BASIC - plus some techniques of good programming
> practice through good practice using Draw! ;-)
> 
> > > > > MENU for menus in context in place;
> > > 
> > > > Windows and Linux consistently have context menus on the right
> > > > button. RISC OS has the advantage of not having to move the
> > > > mouse to the top of the window. But the others have the
> > > > advantage that when you want the context menu you get just the
> > > > context menu without the main menu putting another level of
> > > > navigation in the way.
> > > 
> > > I consider your advantages to be a disadvantage - but users
> > > preferences vary.
> 
> > You really like having to navigate an extra level of menu instead
> > of having the context menu open immediately?
> 
> Jump too much and you quickly lose responsibility for your work. When
> things happen 'by magic' you lose the ability to properly understand
> what is happening.

Eh?

> > > > > SELECT and ADJUST options;
> > > 
> > > > Yes, that's good and probably unique, but it's not much to
> > > > boast about compared to being able to run "Web 2.0", the latest
> > > > video formats etc etc is it?
> > > 
> > > Yes. Many people don't want Web 2.0 but practically every
> > > computer user needs efficient use of the desktop.
> 
> > It's just a very little aid to efficiency though. Not being able to
> > do certain things at all, eg watch a DVD or youtube, is more of a
> > problem than not making quite such good use of a mouse.
> 
> It's a *massive* aid to efficiency.

What specifically do you find so much better about RISC OS' use of
Select vs Adjust compared to other platforms?

> > > > > Ability to OLE out, modify, drop in a new application,
> > > > > modify, save back to the original place - all without needing
> > > > > to save interim (or even any) version and all without
> > > > > needlessly bringing windows to the front.
> > > 
> > > > Even the most notoriously unconfigurable Windows-like window
> > > > manager for Linux, GNOME's metacity, has an option not to
> > > > automatically raise windows. Most of them have lots of other
> > > > features not in RISC OS by default, like multiple desktops,
> > > > edge snapping, "shading" (rolling up) and one-way maximising.
> > > 
> > > As standard?
> 
> > Yes.
> 
> > > Doing all that I describe?
> 
> > I don't know about the OLE, I just meant the window management.
> 
> I meant the whole process. If it's possible then all those experts in
> Windows, that I've demo'd RISC OS to, have never encountered it.

Well, having windows jump to the front when I don't want them to annoys
me much more than a few extra explicit saves, so that's why I seized on
that point. I wouldn't be surprised if the feature of active window
always on top has been a major factor in the slow take up of drag & drop
on Windows.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/2/2008 11:43:34 PM
In article <20080502235424.5441fa57@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
   Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> Ah, but there's a difference between your perfectly reasonable opinion
> that the extra level of menu is less of a disadvantage than the menu
> bar, and John's claim that the extra level of menu is an advantage,
> followed up by some weird ramblings about jumping and magic.

It was somewhat curtailed. Sorry. Time's too short I'm afraid so you will have
to wait for a clearer explanation of that.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/3/2008 12:05:36 AM
In article <20080503004334.19edee10@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
   Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> In <4f995d3166john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <20080502222142.0d112ebc@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
> > <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In <4f9956d37ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> > > <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > > In article <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony
> > > > Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > You're still mainly listing features that either aren't really
> > > > > unique or aren't really advantageous.
> > > > 
> > > > > In <4f994d5c82john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> > > > > <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > Draw/Drawfile guaranteed available in all RISC OS machines -
> > > > > > and the consequent general availability/production of vector
> > > > > > graphics across all appropriate applications;
> > > > 
> > > > > RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate
> > > > > applications for Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is
> > > > > a more flexible format than Draw and the renderers all have
> > > > > anti-aliasing. You can even use SVG for filer icons in all the
> > > > > main desktops. But AFAIK Vista still uses an extended version
> > > > > of the .ico format, similar to !Sprites.
> > > > 
> > > > It will be a very long time (if ever) before you automatically
> > > > get an SVG graphic to export from every application that produces
> > > > eg tables, charts, &c.
> > 
> > > RISC OS doesn't automatically do it either. The programmer has to
> > > implement it. Meanwhile everything that can print automatically
> > > gets PDF export.
> > 
> > Wrong use of automatically. If you buy or download free a RISC OS
> > application that produces graphics then you can be sure they will be
> > in the drawfile format.

> Including, say, Photodesk?
eg tables, charts, &c as I said above. I think you can work out which might
appropriately use vector graphics format and which are totally unsuited.

[Snip]

> > > Possibly educational if you intend to get a job doing low level
> > > programming for mobile phones or PDAs.
> > 
> > You are confusing education with training. Don't feel bad about that
> > as nearly the whole of the educational establishment have made the
> > same stupid mistake and charged us greatly for reducing their
> > educational opportunities. Education is about understanding and being
> > responsible for that understanding. It's almost impossible to teach
> > that using a modern Windows machine (and most don't even think to
> > try) and it comes naturally using RISC OS.

> Why can't you be "educated" instead of "trained" by using Visual Studio
> instead of BBC BASIC/ARM assembler? You can learn general principles in
> both, and you'll also learn platform specifics in both. Surely it's
> better if those platform specifics are useful as well as the principles.

It's best if you use a system that mirrors the way people think. It isn't the
applications but the GUI.

> > > I don't see why the embedded assembler in BBC BASIC makes things
> > > much easier though. You have to learn about OPT and CALL etc. How
> > > easy is it to find books about that sort of thing these days?
> > 
> > Take out a subscription to Qercus. We'll let you have the back copies
> > of the series as a free gift.
> > 
> > > > > As good as BBC BASIC is compared to other BASICs, it's still
> > > > > seriously lacking in proper memory management and being able to
> > > > > interact with the OS without passing magic numbers to low level
> > > > > commands like SYS. Python, for instance, is a much more
> > > > > sophisticated language and is easier to install (and you can
> > > > > write standalone python executables at least for Windows
> > > > > anyway) and has richer sets of GUI libraries on other platforms.
> > > > 
> > > > As above.
> > 
> > > BASIC is really not a worthwhile educational exercise, not even for
> > > general programming principles. It teaches bad habits.
> > 
> > It can teach bad habits if it's taught badly.

> The trouble is it's almost impossible to teach some essential good
> habits with BASIC. Other languages include user-definable structured
> data types and all the decent books I've read cover them at an early
> stage. That's just not available with BASIC. How can you teach any OOP
> with BASIC?

And you're teaching that to all 11-14 year olds? Really?

> > If you're talking about teaching C/C++/Python to all secondary school
> > kids then I'd say that you're stark, staring nuts. But can I watch you
> > try! ;-)

> C/C++ aren't really suitable as first languages, but python is. I bet
> you've just dismissed it, seeing as it isn't native to RISC OS.
> Honestly, it's as easy as BASIC to pick up, but it's powerful enough to
> be used for large applications without losing code maintainability.

To 11-14 year olds? Really?

Year 7 (11 year olds):
Logo
Year 8
Logo + Basic
Year 9
Basic + simple web pages.

From year 10 you're stuck with the examination syllabus which is mainly
rubbish.

[Snip]

> > 
> > > You really like having to navigate an extra level of menu instead
> > > of having the context menu open immediately?
> > 
> > Jump too much and you quickly lose responsibility for your work. When
> > things happen 'by magic' you lose the ability to properly understand
> > what is happening.

> Eh?

I agree. I'll have to come back to that. It's an important point to make
(especially educationally) but very difficult to explain without examples.

> > > > > > SELECT and ADJUST options;
> > > > 
> > > > > Yes, that's good and probably unique, but it's not much to
> > > > > boast about compared to being able to run "Web 2.0", the latest
> > > > > video formats etc etc is it?
> > > > 
> > > > Yes. Many people don't want Web 2.0 but practically every
> > > > computer user needs efficient use of the desktop.
> > 
> > > It's just a very little aid to efficiency though. Not being able to
> > > do certain things at all, eg watch a DVD or youtube, is more of a
> > > problem than not making quite such good use of a mouse.
> > 
> > It's a *massive* aid to efficiency.

> What specifically do you find so much better about RISC OS' use of
> Select vs Adjust compared to other platforms?

I would have thought that was obvious. Where is the problem?

> > > > > > Ability to OLE out, modify, drop in a new application,
> > > > > > modify, save back to the original place - all without needing
> > > > > > to save interim (or even any) version and all without
> > > > > > needlessly bringing windows to the front.
> > > > 
> > > > > Even the most notoriously unconfigurable Windows-like window
> > > > > manager for Linux, GNOME's metacity, has an option not to
> > > > > automatically raise windows. Most of them have lots of other
> > > > > features not in RISC OS by default, like multiple desktops,
> > > > > edge snapping, "shading" (rolling up) and one-way maximising.
> > > > 
> > > > As standard?
> > 
> > > Yes.
> > 
> > > > Doing all that I describe?
> > 
> > > I don't know about the OLE, I just meant the window management.
> > 
> > I meant the whole process. If it's possible then all those experts in
> > Windows, that I've demo'd RISC OS to, have never encountered it.

> Well, having windows jump to the front when I don't want them to annoys
> me much more than a few extra explicit saves, so that's why I seized on
> that point. I wouldn't be surprised if the feature of active window
> always on top has been a major factor in the slow take up of drag & drop
> on Windows.

Agreed.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@finnybank.com	0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.qercus.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/3/2008 12:15:57 AM
On Friday 02 May 2008 23:59, John Cartmell wrote:

> Wrong use of automatically. If you buy or download free a RISC OS
> application that produces graphics then you can be sure they will be in
> the drawfile format. The Windows equivalent will likely be in bitmapped
> format.

These sound like vague sweeping statements to me.

> It can teach bad habits if it's taught badly. If you're talking about
> teaching C/C++/Python to all secondary school kids then I'd say that
> you're stark, staring nuts. But can I watch you try! ;-)

Instead, why not go and watch some other people try and succeed?

  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
  http://www.squeakland.org/

Go and get the RISC OS port of Python from

  http://www.schwertberger.de/

or Squeak Smalltalk from

  http://www.rowledge.org/tim/squeak/RISCOSSqueak.html

and at least give them a try.

David
0
david2510 (172)
5/3/2008 12:41:49 AM
In a dim and distant universe <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
   Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate applications for
> Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is a more flexible format than
> Draw and the renderers all have anti-aliasing. You can even use SVG for

It's all well and good being able to render SVG images, but how good is the
application which creates them?

From what I've seen, most Windows vector graphics applications are absolute
rubbish, and certainly more than 64KB long.

> the performance-critical work off-loaded to the graphics card, it's not
> worth the extra effort over C/C++.

That's just because programmers these days are not very good! ;-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 1:22:18 AM
In a dim and distant universe <d45a61994f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
   druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> enlightened us thusly:
> You have to implement it yourself in every application, because the GUI
> has no automatic support for keyboard navigation. If it did, such
> keystrokes would work consistently in every application with no effort
> from the programmer.

Yeah, but it's hardly difficult is it? One line of code!

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 1:28:47 AM
In article <3363e5984f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
   druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> Yes all the fundementals are there. I've got a fair bit of experience 
> in the nightmare task of developing a screen reader for Windows 
> desktop and Windows Mobile, and it would be far far easier for RISC OS 
> with its limited number of clean APIs and trappable software vectors. 
> About the only thing that would cause problems is reading text from 
> custom plotting routines such as those in Oregano 1/2/3 and !PDF2 
> beta. Of course to control the computer you'd have to bolt on the 
> concept of keyboard navigation for all windows and icons, which 
> without OS support won't be pretty, but it can be done.

Yes. We have a pretty scary thing called IconHigh which is used in STBs and
ISTR it draws a border around icons. You can then use keyboard navigation to
move it around.

I also remember a tiny mouse pointer program which Andrew H threw together
as a silly^H^H^H^H^H test of the Nested Wimp stuff. It basically had an
arrangement of four little, borderless windows like:
    _
   |1|
 __|1|__
|22|_|33| 
   |4|
   |4|

so that there is a square gap in the middle. Thus, your mouse pointer
becomes a crosshair that you can see through. I don't know if this still
exists somewhere... I think it was called !Mouser and probably never made it
out of Acorn.

The same technique of using four thin, borderless windows could probably be
utilised to provide a highlight around a given icon in the desktop. Then
some hotkeys could be assigned to move that highlight around and maybe some
other hotkeys for emulating various mouse button clicks. The colour and
thickness of the highlight would be configurable, of course.

Some sort of alt-tab function could be implemented that works something like
this:

  hold alt
  press tab - Speak says the title of the top-most (non-pane) window
  press down - Speak says title of window below
  press down - Speak says title of window below that
  press up - says title of second window again
  release tab - second window pops to top, gains icon highlight in some 
                default icon. Speak describes icon

Who knows? It doesn't sound all that hard to me to get the basics working. 

What would be hard (and I say this from long experience) is getting all of
the edge cases to work: people who don't set the pane bit of a window but
then use it as a pane window, windows with no title, windows with a junk
value for the length of the indirected title text, hot key windows that
shouldn't be moved/looked at, windows that implement pane windows
incorrectly so bringing it to the front would leave the pane windows behind,
Wimp_PlotIcon icons, direct screen rendered text (Zap), apps with no
interactive help support, sprite-only icons, etc, etc.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 2:40:10 AM
Paul Vigay wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <d45a61994f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
>    druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> enlightened us thusly:
>> You have to implement it yourself in every application, because the GUI
>> has no automatic support for keyboard navigation. If it did, such
>> keystrokes would work consistently in every application with no effort
>> from the programmer.
> 
> Yeah, but it's hardly difficult is it? One line of code!

We are talking full keyboard navigation, not just one key.

---druck

0
news5843 (7461)
5/3/2008 8:07:57 AM
In article <4f993d9a88nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:

> > > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in at
> > > least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to anything
> > > on the other platforms?

> > No.

> Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining why
> _you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who thinks it
> isn't rather than a mortal.

Not seeking to answer for Rob here, but I'm inclined to agree with him. Yes
it is great to have a context-sensitive menu pop up at the click of a
button, but the problem with the system is that it is entirely mouse (or in
my case graphics tablet) activated.

As a writer, I do most of my work in Ovation Pro. So there I am tapping away
with my fingers on the keyboard. If I want to activate a menu I have to take
my hands off the keyboard and put a hand on the mouse (pick up the graphics
pad pen) click to open the menu, click again to do what I want to do, then
put down the mouse/pen to return to my typing.

Actually, working with VRPC, I can open menus with a button on the keyboard,
but I still cannot access any of the menu items without leaving the
keyboard.

This is _not_ a productive way of working. If RISC OS could just take that
one little (?) step of making menus keyboard accessible, then the menu
system would be (in my opinion) superior to that on other systems. But at
the moment it only goes half way and becomes a bar to productivity rather
than the reverse.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/3/2008 8:38:53 AM
In a dim and distant universe <7_ydnbP8QaXLgIHVnZ2dnUVZ8vOdnZ2d@plusnet>,
   druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> enlightened us thusly:

> We are talking full keyboard navigation, not just one key.

I was referring to the ctrl-f2 to close windows, being discussed earlier.
:-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 8:53:11 AM
> On Friday 02 May 2008 23:59, John Cartmell wrote:
> 
> Wrong use of automatically. If you buy or download free a RISC OS
> application that produces graphics then you can be sure they will be in
> the drawfile format. The Windows equivalent will likely be in bitmapped
> format.

Why do you base your assessment of an OS on free downloads?

A competent user of any OS would be using commercial software, in which
case RISC OS fares very badly compared to Windows or Mac vector software.

The 'RISC OS is best because it comes with free Draw' arguement is easily
countered by 'Windows is best because it comes with a free working web
browser and email client'.

I would imagine that 99% of computer users use image software to edit
their digital photos. A vector programme isn't much good for that. I would
hazard a guess that Windows has a lot more cometent free apps that can do
the above than RISC OS does. If you want to work with vector graphics on
other platforms there are many free or relatively cheap applications which
allow you to do so. 

Again, most common requirements for vector graphics are accomplished by
the drawing tools within DTP or wordprocessing applications. Instead of
having to use a separate application, you draw them on screen in the
document. If you want something better, the Drawplus or Xara X blows the
nickers off Draw or Artworks.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/3/2008 9:03:10 AM
Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:

> 
> Actually, working with VRPC, I can open menus with a button on the
> keyboard, but I still cannot access any of the menu items without
> leaving the keyboard.

Don't the up and down arrow keys move you up and down the menu? They
should do, and then click Enter on the option you want.

If it doesn't do that, I wouldn't have thought it difficult to implement
as it's already built into Windows.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/3/2008 9:03:10 AM
In a dim and distant universe <4f9997b76erichtnews@uwclub.net>,
   Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> enlightened us thusly:
> As a writer, I do most of my work in Ovation Pro. So there I am tapping
> away with my fingers on the keyboard. If I want to activate a menu I have
> to take my hands off the keyboard and put a hand on the mouse (pick up
> the graphics pad pen) click to open the menu, click again to do what I
> want to do, then put down the mouse/pen to return to my typing.

I've got a 'menu' button on my keyboard (next to the right 'Windows'
button) which opens a RISC OS menu when I press it, but of course you then
can't move the mouse up and down in order to select the options.

I wonder if there's any way of making !HID do mouse controls? I could then
assign 'Windows' key+cursor down/up as mouse movements or something.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 9:12:02 AM
In article <4f9966a49ajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <d45a61994f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
>    druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:

> > You have to implement it yourself in every application, because
> > the GUI has no automatic support for keyboard navigation. If it
> > did, such keystrokes would work consistently in every
> > application with no effort from the programmer.

> Whilst the filer keyboard navigation can be implemented (has been)

It is keyboard navigation that's been implemented in the filer, is
it? I thought it was referred to merely as something along the lines
of 'some keyboard shortcuts' earlier in the thread - possibly even by
you, but I really can't remember. I'll glance back through the thread
later, but in the meantime:

I've quickly looked on the RISC OS 6 website (http://www.riscos6.com)
and all it lists in this connection under under new features in 6.10
are:

* Enhanced keyboard shortcut support in Filer windows. 

* Search filer windows using the keyboard. 

And possibly (it doesn't mention the keyboard):

* Powerful new rename/copy/move features in Filer.

Would someone care to summarise what the actual keyboard support is
that's provided in the RISC OS 6.10 filer? (Preferably someone other
than John, because I'd rather see a useful answer than an instruction
to buy an issue of his magazine - or RISC OS 6.10, given that it
won't run on my computer).

> that's because it won't come into conflict with applications - with
> the possible exception of those that appear to 'steal'
> key-presses(?). Trying to (now) implement windows navigation will
> fall foul of the use applications make even of those keyboard
> shortcuts listed in the Style Guide. I presume (I'm open to
> clarification or even polite flat-out contradiction!) that there is
> now no chance of such being implemented because of that.

Mostly wrong[1]. There are other issues which would need addressing -
but for keyboard navigation, clashing with those keys isn't one of
them.

* Tab and shift-tab would move back and forth from one icon to the
next - which it can currently be used for but only with writable
icons; it would be an extension of that use.

* Up/Down arrows: Ditto.

* Space would be used to select/deselect options etc. It has no
special use in dialogues, so there is no clash.

* Return would still be used to effect a press on the default action
button. No change at all.

And that's your basic keyboard navigation, right there.

[1] The one clash I can think of is with menus. Ideally (IMO, anyway)
we would use the Alt key to call up a menu (since alt gives the focus
to the menu bar in Windows, and I suspect in other systems as well -
but I'm sure Rob et al will correct me if I'm wrong about that).
However, Alt is sacrosanct, because it's used to get international
characters - but there is an alternative: Modern keyboards tend to
have (as well as a 'Windows' key) a 'Menu' key. Not only that, but
pressing the 'Menu' key in Windows calls up the contextual menu.
Problem solved. :)

Oh. Hmm... just found the Alt key on page 67:

  The Alt key is used by RISC OS as a shifting key to generate
  international characters and in the future is likely to be used to
  support a revised system of keyboard shortcuts more compatible with
  other non-Acorn systems. Because of this, you must not use the Alt
  key for keyboard shortcuts.

I wonder what they were thinking of when they wrote that, and if they
were thinking of "keyboard shortcuts more compatible with other
non-Acorn systems" I wonder if they were also thinking about keyboard
navigation for the same reason.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/3/2008 9:24:02 AM
In article <4f999a9665spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

[snips]

> Not only that, but pressing the 'Menu' key in Windows calls up the
> contextual menu. Problem solved. :)

Not in all programs, though, it seems. I'd assumed this was
implemented at a more fundemental level, so that the app was passed
an event corresponding to a right click.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/3/2008 9:32:24 AM
In a dim and distant universe
<gemini.k0abnb001i5bx0414.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> Don't the up and down arrow keys move you up and down the menu? They
> should do, and then click Enter on the option you want.

Erm, how do you navigate the caret around your document when you have a
menu open then?

I'd have thought adding keyboard navigation to RISC OS menus could be done
via a modifier key in conjunction with the cursor keys, rather than the
cursor keys on their own.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 9:32:38 AM
On comp.sys.acorn.misc, in message <4f9976e044steve@revi11.plus.com>,
Ste (news) wrote:

> What would be hard (and I say this from long experience) is getting
> all of the edge cases to work: people who don't set the pane bit of a
> window but then use it as a pane window, windows with no title,
> windows with a junk value for the length of the indirected title text,
> hot key windows that shouldn't be moved/looked at, windows that
> implement pane windows incorrectly so bringing it to the front would
> leave the pane windows behind,

I've just been implementing my first ever pane window (using the DeskLib
Pane2 module). How is are panes supposed to behave in this respect? I
used "MoveWind" to test my window. If I click on the pane to bring it to
the front, nothing happens. If I click on the main window to bring it to
the front, the main window pops forward, but the pane seems to
disappear. Should I expect everything to pop to the front all together
in both cases?

Thanks,
Adam

-- 
Adam Richardson          Carpe Diem
http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/
0
news4275 (1182)
5/3/2008 9:41:25 AM
In message <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton  wrote:

> Even the most notoriously unconfigurable Windows-like window manager
> for Linux, GNOME's metacity, has an option not to automatically raise
> windows. Most of them have lots of other features not in RISC OS by
> default, like multiple desktops, edge snapping, "shading" (rolling up)
> and one-way maximising.

Luckily someone wrote a little module to fix at least one of those
deficiencies ;)

Adam

-- 
Adam Richardson          Carpe Diem
http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/
0
news4275 (1182)
5/3/2008 9:43:40 AM
In message <4f9997b76erichtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers  wrote:

> In article <4f993d9a88nospam@nomaps.amnops.inv
> Actually, working with VRPC, I can open menus with a button on the
> keyboard, but I still cannot access any of the menu items without
> leaving the keyboard.

Interesting :) I've just tried this and after the window opened I
naturally tapped away at the up and down arrows - it would be great if
they then moved the menu highlight (or pointer) appropriately.

Adam

-- 
Adam Richardson          Carpe Diem
http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/
0
news4275 (1182)
5/3/2008 9:55:06 AM
On 3 May, Paul Vigay  wrote in message
  <4f996fbf36invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>:

> In a dim and distant universe <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
>    Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> 
> > RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate applications
> > for Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is a more flexible
> > format than Draw and the renderers all have anti-aliasing. You can
> > even use SVG for
> 
> It's all well and good being able to render SVG images, but how good is
> the application which creates them?
> 
> From what I've seen, most Windows vector graphics applications are
> absolute rubbish, and certainly more than 64KB long.

As an ArtWorks user, I found myself using Inkscape the other day and found
it straightforward to drive and perfectly adequate for what I was doing. 
It saves natively as SVG, too.
 
> > the performance-critical work off-loaded to the graphics card, it's
> > not worth the extra effort over C/C++.
> 
> That's just because programmers these days are not very good! ;-)

Or because they have realised that it's a better use of their time?

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
5/3/2008 10:31:01 AM
On 3 May, Paul Vigay  wrote in message
  <4f999ca328invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>:

> In a dim and distant universe
> <gemini.k0abnb001i5bx0414.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> 
> > Don't the up and down arrow keys move you up and down the menu? They
> > should do, and then click Enter on the option you want.
> 
> Erm, how do you navigate the caret around your document when you have a
> menu open then?

You don't need to: since the menus are transient (like RISC OS), if you're
selecting a menu entry you don't need to be navigating around your
document.

I know you /can/ on RISC OS, but I'd question if anyone /does/.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
5/3/2008 10:34:44 AM
Adam wrote:
> On comp.sys.acorn.misc, in message <4f9976e044steve@revi11.plus.com>,
> Ste (news) wrote:
> 
>> What would be hard (and I say this from long experience) is getting
>> all of the edge cases to work: people who don't set the pane bit of a
>> window but then use it as a pane window, windows with no title,
>> windows with a junk value for the length of the indirected title text,
>> hot key windows that shouldn't be moved/looked at, windows that
>> implement pane windows incorrectly so bringing it to the front would
>> leave the pane windows behind,
> 
> I've just been implementing my first ever pane window (using the DeskLib
> Pane2 module). How is are panes supposed to behave in this respect? I
> used "MoveWind" to test my window. If I click on the pane to bring it to
> the front, nothing happens. If I click on the main window to bring it to
> the front, the main window pops forward, but the pane seems to
> disappear. Should I expect everything to pop to the front all together
> in both cases?
> 
> Thanks,
> Adam
> 

These days you're probably better using the nested WIMP.

 From memory though, I think it's related to the order you open the 
windows in, you have to open the main window, then open the pane in 
front of it (using the main window's handle), or open the pane and open 
the main window behind it, I forget which.

Alex.
0
nospam1325 (337)
5/3/2008 10:35:46 AM
In article <c552a2994f.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>,
   Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 3 May, Paul Vigay  wrote in message
>   <4f999ca328invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>:

> > > Don't the up and down arrow keys move you up and down the menu?
> > > They should do, and then click Enter on the option you want.

> > Erm, how do you navigate the caret around your document when you
> > have a menu open then?

> You don't need to: since the menus are transient (like RISC OS), if
> you're selecting a menu entry you don't need to be navigating
> around your document.

> I know you /can/ on RISC OS, but I'd question if anyone /does/.

Indeed.

To my mind this behaviour is actually inconsistent: it should be an
all or nothing (but not nothing) approach. Once a menu is opened,
*all* input should be directed at that menu (or ignored if
appropriate), which means both mouse *and* keyboard.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/3/2008 10:43:59 AM
On 3 May 2008  Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <4f9997b76erichtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers  wrote:

>> In article <4f993d9a88nospam@nomaps.amnops.inv
>> Actually, working with VRPC, I can open menus with a button on the
>> keyboard, but I still cannot access any of the menu items without
>> leaving the keyboard.

> Interesting :) I've just tried this and after the window opened I
> naturally tapped away at the up and down arrows - it would be great if
> they then moved the menu highlight (or pointer) appropriately.

On the Iyo you can do this with !WinMenu, from 7th software; perhaps 
this is how the OP did it on VRPC?

With best wishes,

Peter.

-- 
Peter  \  /      zfc Er       \     Prestbury, Cheltenham,  Glos. GL52
Anne    \/ __            __    \                              England.
and     / /  \ | | |\ | /  _    \      http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
family /  \__/ \_/ | \| \__/     \______________ pnyoung@ormail.co.uk.
0
pnyoung1 (1656)
5/3/2008 11:38:54 AM
In article <94fba1994f.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>,
 Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

> On 3 May, Paul Vigay  wrote in message
>   <4f996fbf36invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>:
> 
> > In a dim and distant universe <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
> >    Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > 
> > > RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate applications
> > > for Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is a more flexible
> > > format than Draw and the renderers all have anti-aliasing. You can
> > > even use SVG for
> > 
> > It's all well and good being able to render SVG images, but how good is
> > the application which creates them?
> > 
> > From what I've seen, most Windows vector graphics applications are
> > absolute rubbish, and certainly more than 64KB long.
> 
> As an ArtWorks user, I found myself using Inkscape the other day and found
> it straightforward to drive and perfectly adequate for what I was doing. 
> It saves natively as SVG, too.

And, from 0.46 onwards, Inkscape can import and export PDF which is 
useful if you want to interchange with current versions of ArtWorks.

I was surprised by Paul's suggestion that he would wish to see vector 
graphics applications smaller than 64KB - there would seem limited scope 
for functionality.
-- 
Andy Wingate <URL:http://www.sparse.net>
I'm not nearly as think as you confused I am.
0
andy8-5 (13)
5/3/2008 11:47:31 AM
Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe <4f9997b76erichtnews@uwclub.net>,
>    Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> enlightened us thusly:
> > As a writer, I do most of my work in Ovation Pro. So there I am
> > tapping away with my fingers on the keyboard. If I want to activate a
> > menu I have to take my hands off the keyboard and put a hand on the
> > mouse (pick up the graphics pad pen) click to open the menu, click
> > again to do what I want to do, then put down the mouse/pen to return
> > to my typing.
> 
> I've got a 'menu' button on my keyboard (next to the right 'Windows'
> button) which opens a RISC OS menu when I press it, but of course you
> then can't move the mouse up and down in order to select the options.

Unfortunately you can't rely on the presence of the Menu key on keyboards
- even modern ones. For instance, my Logitech LX710 uses that key as a
function key to access the function buttons at the top of the keyboard.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/3/2008 11:52:15 AM
In <4f996fbf36invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>
Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe
> <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
> <h@realh.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > RISC OS is losing its lead there too. Most appropriate applications
> > for Linux have at least plugins for SVG, which is a more flexible
> > format than Draw and the renderers all have anti-aliasing. You can
> > even use SVG for
> 
> It's all well and good being able to render SVG images, but how good
> is the application which creates them?

I use inkscape. The only disadvantage I can think of compared to !Draw
is that setting up grid snapping is unintuitive, but on the plus side
it's much more flexible.

> From what I've seen, most Windows vector graphics applications are
> absolute rubbish, and certainly more than 64KB long.

So what if they're more than 64KB? If Draw's so small no wonder it's so
limited.

> > the performance-critical work off-loaded to the graphics card, it's
> > not worth the extra effort over C/C++.
> 
> That's just because programmers these days are not very good! ;-)

Not very good at optimising for 1980s specifications, but why should
they be?

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/3/2008 12:24:08 PM
In <d6a59d994f.admin@snowstone.org.uk>
Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <20080502212007.10e10f05@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony
> Houghton  wrote:
> 
> > Even the most notoriously unconfigurable Windows-like window manager
> > for Linux, GNOME's metacity, has an option not to automatically
> > raise windows. Most of them have lots of other features not in RISC
> > OS by default, like multiple desktops, edge snapping,
> > "shading" (rolling up) and one-way maximising.
> 
> Luckily someone wrote a little module to fix at least one of those
> deficiencies ;)

But obviously he was a bad programmer because he ended up rewriting it
in C instead of assembler so he could finish it in a day or two instead
of taking all week ;-). It might even take up more than 64K!

I think I've also seen window shading and multiple desktops on RISC OS,
but ISTR the latter not being as good as in typical Linux wms.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/3/2008 12:27:52 PM
Tony Houghton wrote:
> I think I've also seen window shading and multiple desktops on RISC OS,
> but ISTR the latter not being as good as in typical Linux wms.

I think you'll find that MoreDesk and MultiDesk are as good as
those multiple desktop utils on Linux.

However, I am still looking for an equivalent on Windows, now
that I've found RocketDock as a nearly-good-enough application
dock (compared to MW's AppDock2).

Steffen

-- 
Steffen Huber
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/
0
spam9600 (698)
5/3/2008 12:42:32 PM
Something I wanted to do yesterday when using Windows that reminded me of
how RISC OS works better was this: I had a load of HTML files in a directory
that I wanted to load into FireFox so I selected them all and dragged down
to the taskbar at the bottom.

First of all (with XP) you get an error if you drop stuff there about how
you cannot drop items onto the taskbar. Instead, Windows 'helpfully' opens
the app's window if you hover over it. The net result being that you end up
with loads of windows opening as you move the mouse pointer along.

Next, I had a bunch of tiles that I wanted to join together. Using Notepad++
I tried selecting them all and just dropping into the editor window. Shock
horror, it loaded each into a separate window! You might blame the app for
this but it seems to be common across a lot of Windows programs.

Finally, UI "designers" (and I use that term loosely) in Windows - and other
OSs seem to have copied this - just love those stupid list boxes with a few
items visible and a million other items that you cannot see and have to
scroll to. Often, these cannot be resized (because their parent window
can't) so they are a real dog to use.

It's not strictly a feature of the OS because RISC OS has list boxes, it's
just another thing which RISC OS apps tend to avoid and it's for the better,
IMO.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 12:57:27 PM
In article <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are valuable 
> and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.

You can move menus in RISC OS - which is useful if they happen to open
somewhere that you don't want them. Right clicking and keeping the menu tree
open is a million times better than the alternative. I've never seen another
OS that has these features.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 12:59:55 PM
In <6834tmF2qt4pvU1@mid.individual.net>
Steffen Huber <spam@huber-net.de> wrote:

> Tony Houghton wrote:
> > I think I've also seen window shading and multiple desktops on RISC
> > OS, but ISTR the latter not being as good as in typical Linux wms.
> 
> I think you'll find that MoreDesk and MultiDesk are as good as
> those multiple desktop utils on Linux.

I only saw the one and it might not have been finished. MultiDesk rings
more of a bell than the other, but for some reason I had a vague memory
of it being written by druck, which doesn't seem to be the case after
all unless he's the apparently anonymous person behind Fusion Software.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/3/2008 1:09:06 PM
In article <4f993fdc06john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f99357cf0richtnews@uwclub.net>,
>    Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> > > > My apologies.
> > > None needed for me. ;-)
> > Aimed at David, not you.

> Snatching a sour taste out of the jaws of goodwill? ;-(

You may take it that way, if you wish. Or you could take it as a sideways
swipe at your apparent need to respond to anything and everything.

Or you could just take it as it was meant, as information about the intended
recipient of the post.

Your choice.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/3/2008 1:22:15 PM
In article <gemini.k0abnb001i5bx0414.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:

> > 
> > Actually, working with VRPC, I can open menus with a button on the
> > keyboard, but I still cannot access any of the menu items without
> > leaving the keyboard.

> Don't the up and down arrow keys move you up and down the menu? They
> should do, and then click Enter on the option you want.

> If it doesn't do that, I wouldn't have thought it difficult to implement
> as it's already built into Windows.

I use Ovation Pro on the RISC OS desktop (we were talking about the RISC OS
menu functions). And, no, arrow keys do not move you up and down the menu
choices.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/3/2008 1:29:59 PM
On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:59:55 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:

> In article <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
>    Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are
>> valuable and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.
> 
> You can move menus in RISC OS - which is useful if they happen to open
> somewhere that you don't want them. Right clicking and keeping the menu
> tree open is a million times better than the alternative. I've never
> seen another OS that has these features.

Yes, people keep mention this.  The problems you mention are solved by 
Tear-off menus in Gtk and I believe Qt.  Different solutions to the same 
problem often have differing advantages and disadvantages, of course.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/3/2008 3:44:04 PM
On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:57:27 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:

> Something I wanted to do yesterday when using Windows that reminded me
> of how RISC OS works better was this: I had a load of HTML files in a
> directory that I wanted to load into FireFox so I selected them all and
> dragged down to the taskbar at the bottom.

The way I normally do this is to select them all, and then tap enter.  
(Ctrl-A, Enter)

> Next, I had a bunch of tiles that I wanted to join together. Using
> Notepad++ I tried selecting them all and just dropping into the editor
> window. Shock horror, it loaded each into a separate window! You might
> blame the app for this but it seems to be common across a lot of Windows
> programs.

Why use the GUI for this when it's just a "cat * > foo" away?  This kind 
of thing's never going to be as quick in a GUI as from the keyboard :)

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/3/2008 3:46:15 PM
In article <bN%Sj.7854$b4.4691@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:57:27 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:
> > Something I wanted to do yesterday when using Windows that reminded me
> > of how RISC OS works better was this: I had a load of HTML files in a
> > directory that I wanted to load into FireFox so I selected them all and
> > dragged down to the taskbar at the bottom.
>
> The way I normally do this is to select them all, and then tap enter.  
> (Ctrl-A, Enter)

That depends upon whether you are trying to load them into the app which
normally claims that filetype or not.

> > Next, I had a bunch of tiles that I wanted to join together. Using
> > Notepad++ I tried selecting them all and just dropping into the editor
> > window. Shock horror, it loaded each into a separate window! You might
> > blame the app for this but it seems to be common across a lot of Windows
> > programs.
>
> Why use the GUI for this when it's just a "cat * > foo" away?  This kind 
> of thing's never going to be as quick in a GUI as from the keyboard :)

Selecting them and dropping into a Zap window is faster, IMO.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 4:04:00 PM
On Sat, 03 May 2008 17:04:00 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:

>> The way I normally do this is to select them all, and then tap enter.
>> (Ctrl-A, Enter)
> 
> That depends upon whether you are trying to load them into the app which
> normally claims that filetype or not.

This is true.  If you want to dump them on a specific program, drop them 
on a shortcut to the program in question (be it on the desktop, in the 
explorer, or in the start menu.)

>> Why use the GUI for this when it's just a "cat * > foo" away?  This
>> kind of thing's never going to be as quick in a GUI as from the
>> keyboard :)
> 
> Selecting them and dropping into a Zap window is faster, IMO.

You mean, in your experience? :)  tbh, I almost always have a terminal 
open and find visiting the directory in the terminal and doing the cat 
trick an order of magnitude faster, and doesn't require loading all of 
the files into memory at once.

B.

0
nntp550 (4244)
5/3/2008 4:08:40 PM
Tony Houghton wrote:
> In <6834tmF2qt4pvU1@mid.individual.net>
> Steffen Huber <spam@huber-net.de> wrote:
> 
>> Tony Houghton wrote:
>>> I think I've also seen window shading and multiple desktops on RISC
>>> OS, but ISTR the latter not being as good as in typical Linux wms.
>> I think you'll find that MoreDesk and MultiDesk are as good as
>> those multiple desktop utils on Linux.
> 
> I only saw the one and it might not have been finished. MultiDesk rings
> more of a bell than the other, but for some reason I had a vague memory
> of it being written by druck, which doesn't seem to be the case after
> all unless he's the apparently anonymous person behind Fusion Software.

Druck also wrote one, called WorkSpace, but I never liked
it (don't remember why). I also remember Larger and Multiscreen
providing a "virtual desktop".

MultiDesk was written by Julian Smith and is still my favourite,
but unfortunately it is 26bit only. I always wanted to write
to Steve from 7th Software about the few great features in MultiDesk
that are still missing in MoreDesk...

Steffen

-- 
Steffen Huber
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/
0
spam9600 (698)
5/3/2008 4:09:10 PM
In article <8L%Sj.7853$b4.2100@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:59:55 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:

> > In article <aeHSj.3227$WA5.1634@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> >    <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> >> Let's start with what features of the RISC OS menuing system are
> >> valuable and unique, rather than listing everything that isn't.
> > 
> > You can move menus in RISC OS - which is useful if they happen to
> > open somewhere that you don't want them. Right clicking and keeping
> > the menu tree open is a million times better than the alternative.
> > I've never seen another OS that has these features.

> Yes, people keep mention this.  The problems you mention are solved
> by Tear-off menus in Gtk and I believe Qt.  Different solutions to
> the same problem often have differing advantages and disadvantages,
> of course.

Tear-off menus do not solve the problems. Also, what on earth are "Gtk"
and "Qt" - and why hasn't the great Windows got this feature if it's so
desirable?

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/3/2008 4:19:49 PM
In article <4f99a28e07spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH
<spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <c552a2994f.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
>    Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> > On 3 May, Paul Vigay  wrote in message
> >   <4f999ca328invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>:

> > > > Don't the up and down arrow keys move you up and down the menu?
> > > > They should do, and then click Enter on the option you want.

> > > Erm, how do you navigate the caret around your document when you
> > > have a menu open then?

> > You don't need to: since the menus are transient (like RISC OS), if
> > you're selecting a menu entry you don't need to be navigating
> > around your document.

> > I know you /can/ on RISC OS, but I'd question if anyone /does/.

> Indeed.

> To my mind this behaviour is actually inconsistent: it should be an
> all or nothing (but not nothing) approach. Once a menu is opened,
> *all* input should be directed at that menu (or ignored if
> appropriate), which means both mouse *and* keyboard.

I don't see why. If a menu is mouse operated, then it is entirely
reasonable to leave input focus where it was and allow key input - how
else can you open a menu for reference whilst typing into a document
the information from it?

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/3/2008 4:24:17 PM
In article <4f9997b76erichtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
<richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:
> In article <4f993d9a88nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
>    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <eYGSj.3219$WA5.33@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> > <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:58:51 +0100, David wrote:

> > > > Had we not decided that the menuing system (as a whole and in
> > > > at least several of its parts) on RISC OS was far superior to
> > > > anything on the other platforms?

> > > No.

> > Really? I, and no doubt others, would appreciate your explaining
> > why _you think_ it isn't. Other than the fact that it's _you_ who
> > thinks it isn't rather than a mortal.

> Not seeking to answer for Rob here, but I'm inclined to agree with
> him. Yes it is great to have a context-sensitive menu pop up at the
> click of a button, but the problem with the system is that it is
> entirely mouse (or in my case graphics tablet) activated.

> As a writer, I do most of my work in Ovation Pro. So there I am
> tapping away with my fingers on the keyboard. If I want to activate a
> menu I have to take my hands off the keyboard and put a hand on the
> mouse (pick up the graphics pad pen) click to open the menu, click
> again to do what I want to do, then put down the mouse/pen to return
> to my typing.

It'd be okay for you and for anyone proficient at typing but for some
folk searching around the keyboard for the right keys (and having to
remember them all) might well be more difficult and slower than
grabbing the mouse. The mouse-pointer is an extension of the innate
ability to move the hand to locate and touch objects directly and doing
so provides a greater sensory feedback. Many tasks on the computer are
not really word based or typing based - e.g. image manipulation - and
use of a device such as the mouse even for menus is probably much
easier than would be use of the keyboard. That said, I can see the
difficulty for laptops as opposed to desktop.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/3/2008 4:35:42 PM
In a dim and distant universe
<andy8-5-CB88DB.12462903052008@text.news.ntlworld.com>,
   Andrew Wingate <andy8-5@sparse.net> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> I was surprised by Paul's suggestion that he would wish to see vector
> graphics applications smaller than 64KB - there would seem limited scope
> for functionality.

Draw is absolutely amazing for 64KB of memory AND being built into ROM. :-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 4:50:24 PM
In a dim and distant universe
<c552a2994f.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>,
   Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> I know you /can/ on RISC OS, but I'd question if anyone /does/.

I use this quite a bit, especially if I'm copying text into a document from
an open menu structure or 'Info' window (most of which are sub-menus).

When I'm writing manuals and user documentation, I very frequently want to
have a menu open whilst I'm typing in another window.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 4:52:40 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f99a28e07spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> all or nothing (but not nothing) approach. Once a menu is opened, *all*
> input should be directed at that menu (or ignored if appropriate), which
> means both mouse *and* keyboard.

Personal preference I suppose, but see my previous reply for why I find
being able to type whilst a menu is open quite essential.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 4:53:16 PM
In a dim and distant universe <a232a8994f.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
   Dr Peter Young <pnyoung@ormail.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> On the Iyo you can do this with !WinMenu, from 7th software; perhaps
> this is how the OP did it on VRPC?

That just simulates the 'Windows' button pressing the middle mouse button.
It doesn't appear to actually let you navigate the menus from the keyboard.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 5:00:48 PM
In a dim and distant universe
<gemini.k0ajt5007sv3b0414.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> Unfortunately you can't rely on the presence of the Menu key on keyboards
> - even modern ones. For instance, my Logitech LX710 uses that key as a
> function key to access the function buttons at the top of the keyboard.

No, but if you require a computer for special requirements (the gist of
this thread) then presumably you would purchase an appropriate keyboard
that you feel comfortable with. I know I've been through several keyboards
until I found one I liked.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 5:02:04 PM
In a dim and distant universe <20080503132408.73e5f529@tiber.realh.co.uk>,
   Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> Not very good at optimising for 1980s specifications, but why should they
> be?

Sums up today's wasteful society I guess!

There's nothing wrong with optimising and making code more efficient. I
always optimise all my routines to run with the absolute minimum of
wimpslots! :-)

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/3/2008 5:03:39 PM
Rob Kendrick wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 17:04:00 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:
[snip]
>>> Why use the GUI for this when it's just a "cat * > foo" away?  This
>>> kind of thing's never going to be as quick in a GUI as from the
>>> keyboard :)
>> Selecting them and dropping into a Zap window is faster, IMO.
> 
> You mean, in your experience? :)  tbh, I almost always have a terminal 
> open and find visiting the directory in the terminal and doing the cat 
> trick an order of magnitude faster, and doesn't require loading all of 
> the files into memory at once.

This only works faster if you can easily find a pattern in the
filenames you want to concatenate. I often need a specific
selection of files, which is a lot easier to select visually.

Steffen

-- 
Steffen Huber
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/
0
spam9600 (698)
5/3/2008 5:05:12 PM
In article <683h12F2rk21iU1@mid.individual.net>,
   Steffen Huber <spam@huber-net.de> wrote:
> MultiDesk was written by Julian Smith and is still my favourite, but
> unfortunately it is 26bit only. I always wanted to write to Steve from 7th
> Software about the few great features in MultiDesk that are still missing
> in MoreDesk...

Go for it. I'm always intereste in new features. I used to use MultiDesk
before I wrote MoreDesk so I'd be interested to learn what it did that is
useful that I haven't already implemented.

In my view, MultiDesk had several key features that made it much less than
it should have been:

1. the UI was, erm, quirky
2. I had to modify it in a few areas to make it less clunky
3. no overall view of the total desktop space

It's been so long now since I used it, I can't remember how I had to modify
it. I think it was to do with disabling the really annoying scrolling
slightly in one direction rather than by a whole desktop.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 5:45:34 PM
In article <4f99c5ab2einvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <a232a8994f.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
>    Dr Peter Young <pnyoung@ormail.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > On the Iyo you can do this with !WinMenu, from 7th software; perhaps
> > this is how the OP did it on VRPC?
>
> That just simulates the 'Windows' button pressing the middle mouse button.
> It doesn't appear to actually let you navigate the menus from the keyboard.

Correct. I wrote it because when using VA it had the "Menu" key set to open
a menu but on my Dell laptop that key is right at the top of the keyboad and
a pain to use. So I wrote WinMenu to make the "Windows" key open menus -
which helped me because the "Windows" key is down between the left shift and
alt keys.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 5:49:18 PM
In article <4f99c25342nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> I don't see why. If a menu is mouse operated, then it is entirely
> reasonable to leave input focus where it was and allow key input -
> how else can you open a menu for reference whilst typing into a
> document the information from it?

I can't say I've ever had reason to do that, and can't think of any
reason I *would* want to do so.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/3/2008 5:56:57 PM
In article <4f99c4ec6cinvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe
> <c552a2994f.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>,
>    Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> > I know you /can/ on RISC OS, but I'd question if anyone /does/.

> I use this quite a bit, especially if I'm copying text into a
> document from an open menu structure or 'Info' window (most of
> which are sub-menus).

> When I'm writing manuals and user documentation, I very frequently
> want to have a menu open whilst I'm typing in another window.

Personally, I'd put screenshots in the documentation anyway - so
there would be no need for the open menu.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/3/2008 5:56:58 PM
In article <4f99c35e4dnospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f9997b76erichtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
> <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:

[...]

> > As a writer, I do most of my work in Ovation Pro. So there I am
> > tapping away with my fingers on the keyboard. If I want to
> > activate a menu I have to take my hands off the keyboard and put
> > a hand on the mouse (pick up the graphics pad pen) click to open
> > the menu, click again to do what I want to do, then put down the
> > mouse/pen to return to my typing.

> It'd be okay for you and for anyone proficient at typing but for
> some folk searching around the keyboard for the right keys (and
> having to remember them all) might well be more difficult and
> slower than grabbing the mouse. 

Nobody has suggested keyboard navigation of windows and menus should
*replace* doing so with the mouse. For those who prefer to use the
mouse, the mouse would still be available.

(But bear in mind this is all hypothetical anyway, unless someone has
both the time and inclination to start looking at the issue with a
view to doing something about it).

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/3/2008 5:56:58 PM
In article <4f99ca1bc3steve@revi11.plus.com>,
   Ste (news) <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <4f99c5ab2einvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
>    Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> > That just simulates the 'Windows' button pressing the middle mouse
> > button. It doesn't appear to actually let you navigate the menus from
> > the keyboard.
>
> Correct. I wrote it because when using VA it had the "Menu" key set to
> open a menu but on my Dell laptop that key is right at the top of the
> keyboad and a pain to use. So I wrote WinMenu to make the "Windows" key
> open menus - which helped me because the "Windows" key is down between the
> left shift and alt keys.

For a bit of a laugh, I've added keyboard navigation of menus to WinMenu.
This is very much a bodge rather than the 'right' way of doing things but it
is a bit of fun.

  http://www.7thsoftware.com/software.htm

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 6:16:10 PM
In message <4f99cc91b6steve@revi11.plus.com>, Ste (news) wrote:

> In article <4f99ca1bc3steve@revi11.plus.com>,
>    Ste (news) <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> > In article <4f99c5ab2einvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
> >    Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> > > That just simulates the 'Windows' button pressing the middle mouse
> > > button. It doesn't appear to actually let you navigate the menus
> > > from the keyboard.
> >
> > Correct. I wrote it because when using VA it had the "Menu" key set
> > to open a menu but on my Dell laptop that key is right at the top of
> > the keyboad and a pain to use. So I wrote WinMenu to make the
> > "Windows" key open menus - which helped me because the "Windows" key
> > is down between the left shift and alt keys.
> 
> For a bit of a laugh, I've added keyboard navigation of menus to
> WinMenu. This is very much a bodge rather than the 'right' way of
> doing things but it is a bit of fun.

Oh, I quite like that :) If it was polished up a bit (e.g. detect the
width of the menu so one keypress worked and to work when another app
has input focus), I'd probably have it in my boot sequence :)

Cheers,
Adam

-- 
Adam Richardson          Carpe Diem
http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/
0
news4275 (1182)
5/3/2008 7:23:40 PM
In message <4f995645b1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <448053994f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > In message <4f98da376fjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
> >           John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <5f72d6984f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
> > >    Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > then Alt-F4 to close the window and exit.
> > > 
> > > So you want an alternative to select-X?
> 
> > What is select-X?
> 
> Click SELECT on the close button of a window. The same as ^F2 where the
> application allows it.

So, not X at all...

Yes, absolutely I want an alternative to "select-X" as you call it -
one which doesn't require a mouse click - which was the whole point
of this part of the thread.

Anyway, Paul and you have pointed out Control-F2, for which I am
grateful.

Now, if only RISC OS would provide a complete set of controls from
the keyboard... and by complete, I do mean complete.

It just came in handy last week at work.  I unplugged the mouse
and plugged in a different one instead, which wasn't recognised.
I was able to do all the operations needed to shut down all apps
and reboot it without a mouse.  (On reboot, the new mouse was of
course recognised.)

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
5/3/2008 7:43:58 PM
In message <SNMSj.6450$EH2.325@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>
          Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 02 May 2008 21:07:25 +0100, Dave Higton wrote:
> 
> > You can pick up a menu and move it to somewhere more convenient.
> > 
> > You can Adjust-click and item to action it and keep the menu open do do
> > another action immediately.
> 
> Both of these problems are solved by tear-offs in GTK and Qt.

In other words, the OS doesn't have the feature: some apps do.

> > If there are more items than can be displayed on the screen, you
> > automatically get a scroll bar.
> 
> Gtk (and I believe Qt can, but I've never personally done it) can be 
> configured to do this should the user wish it.  By default, menus are 
> scrollable but without scrollbars.  The GNOME Human Interface Guidelines 
> strongly suggest against menus with hundreds of options in, suggesting 
> that there is most likely a more efficient GUI - I tend to agree.

A straight choice from a long list?  I can't imagine how you could
produce a better GUI.  And, having used RISC OS menus that scroll
with a scroll bar, and Windoze menus that scroll without a scroll
bar, I much prefer the RISC OS version, thank you.  The other is a
real irritation - I had this view reinforced just last week.

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
5/3/2008 7:52:18 PM
In article <7_ydnbP8QaXLgIHVnZ2dnUVZ8vOdnZ2d@plusnet>,
   druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> Paul Vigay wrote:
> > In a dim and distant universe <d45a61994f.druck@druck.freeuk.net>,
> >    druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> enlightened us thusly:
> >> You have to implement it yourself in every application, because the GUI
> >> has no automatic support for keyboard navigation. If it did, such
> >> keystrokes would work consistently in every application with no effort
> >> from the programmer.
> > 
> > Yeah, but it's hardly difficult is it? One line of code!

> We are talking full keyboard navigation, not just one key.

One application I can think off where the mouse is /almost/ redundant is
Rhapsody3.

Note and rest values can be selected using the function keys combined with
the shift key, position on the stave by cursor keys and entry using <,>
and space bar in conjunction with the shift key, for a few examples which
immediately spring to mind. Note entry is very quick just using the
keyboard and it is they way I enter music.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
5/3/2008 8:04:45 PM
On Sat, 3 May 2008, Paul Vigay wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe <7_ydnbP8QaXLgIHVnZ2dnUVZ8vOdnZ2d@plusnet>,
>   druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> enlightened us thusly:
>
>> We are talking full keyboard navigation, not just one key.
>
> I was referring to the ctrl-f2 to close windows, being discussed earlier.
> :-)

Unfortunately even that simple shortcut has to be implemented anew by 
every application, rather than allowing the OS to treat it as the same as 
a mouse-click on the close icon (allowing the application to opt out if 
necessary).

-- 
0
5/3/2008 8:10:46 PM
On Sat, 3 May 2008, Ray Dawson wrote:

>> On Friday 02 May 2008 23:59, John Cartmell wrote:
>>
>> Wrong use of automatically. If you buy or download free a RISC OS
>> application that produces graphics then you can be sure they will be in
>> the drawfile format. The Windows equivalent will likely be in bitmapped
>> format.
>
> Why do you base your assessment of an OS on free downloads?
>
> A competent user of any OS would be using commercial software, in which
> case RISC OS fares very badly compared to Windows or Mac vector software.
>
> The 'RISC OS is best because it comes with free Draw' arguement is easily
> countered by 'Windows is best because it comes with a free working web
> browser and email client'.

[snip]

> Again, most common requirements for vector graphics are accomplished by
> the drawing tools within DTP or wordprocessing applications. Instead of
> having to use a separate application, you draw them on screen in the
> document. If you want something better, the Drawplus or Xara X blows the
> nickers off Draw or Artworks.

I think that's a bit unfair on ArtWorks to be honest, and I'm someone 
who's used AW since it was released, until Xara X came out. ArtWorks isn't 
that far behind Xara Xtreme Pro apart from lacking a few of Xara's more 
esoteric tools. Really Martin W is at least as deserving of canonisation 
as David Pilling, given his work on AW and now the EasiWriter family ;-)

But your main point is correct. Acorn's drawfile format and its ubiquity 
amongst applications was miles ahead of what was possible on other systems 
for years, but these days PDF or SVG do the same job on other platforms. 
Now that Xara can import PDF and export SVG, my vector workflow is better 
than it used to be when I used RO for graphics work. Most of this is down 
to Xara itself; I do a lot of work in Visio, and much as I like Visio, 
it's drawing tools are grim, but it can import SVG so I can do all the 
fiddly bits in Xara and import it later.

-- 
0
5/3/2008 8:23:32 PM
In <4f99c5edf8invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>
Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe
> <20080503132408.73e5f529@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
> <h@realh.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> 
> > Not very good at optimising for 1980s specifications, but why
> > should they be?
> 
> Sums up today's wasteful society I guess!
> 
> There's nothing wrong with optimising and making code more efficient.
> I always optimise all my routines to run with the absolute minimum of
> wimpslots! :-)

Good for you. I'm sure the users appreciate your efforts in making sure
they can have 120.0078MB free RAM instead of a mere 120MB rather than
have you waste the time fixing bugs and adding features.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/3/2008 8:28:38 PM
In <d55ed5994f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>
Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> In message <SNMSj.6450$EH2.325@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>
>           Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 02 May 2008 21:07:25 +0100, Dave Higton wrote:
> > 
> > > You can pick up a menu and move it to somewhere more convenient.
> > > 
> > > You can Adjust-click and item to action it and keep the menu open
> > > do do another action immediately.
> > 
> > Both of these problems are solved by tear-offs in GTK and Qt.
> 
> In other words, the OS doesn't have the feature: some apps do.

RISC OS doesn't have the feature either: some apps do.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/3/2008 8:32:22 PM
In <4f99c1ea78nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> In article <8L%Sj.7853$b4.2100@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:59:55 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:
> 
> > > You can move menus in RISC OS - which is useful if they happen to
> > > open somewhere that you don't want them. Right clicking and
> > > keeping the menu tree open is a million times better than the
> > > alternative. I've never seen another OS that has these features.
> 
> > Yes, people keep mention this.  The problems you mention are solved
> > by Tear-off menus in Gtk and I believe Qt.  Different solutions to
> > the same problem often have differing advantages and disadvantages,
> > of course.
> 
> Tear-off menus do not solve the problems. Also, what on earth are
> "Gtk" and "Qt" - and why hasn't the great Windows got this feature if
> it's so desirable?

How can you know tear-offs don't solve the problem if you haven't even
heard of the GUIs that use them, let alone seen tear-offs in action?

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/3/2008 8:35:35 PM
Ste (news) wrote:
> In article <683h12F2rk21iU1@mid.individual.net>,
>    Steffen Huber <spam@huber-net.de> wrote:
>> MultiDesk was written by Julian Smith and is still my favourite, but
>> unfortunately it is 26bit only. I always wanted to write to Steve from 7th
>> Software about the few great features in MultiDesk that are still missing
>> in MoreDesk...
> 
> Go for it. I'm always intereste in new features. I used to use MultiDesk
> before I wrote MoreDesk so I'd be interested to learn what it did that is
> useful that I haven't already implemented.

For the benefit of a possible interesting discussion with others, I am
posting my analysis instead of mailing it - I hope you don't mind. Maybe
Tony Houghton could enlighten us which features his favourite multi
desk manager on Linux has.

I am only listing things that MultiDesk does (IMHO) better than
MoreDesk - MoreDesk is generally a lot more powerful. Some things
I regard as "better" others might regard as just "different".

- MultiDesk iconbar icon shows all desks directly, allows direct
   adjust-click to select desk
- direct dragging of windows in pager view - MoreDesk waits for
   end of drag to move real window
- scale factor more flexible - I'm using 0.06 in Multidesk!
  (4x2 config - this gets very large in MoreDesk with its minimum 0.10)
- use of title bar text in pager view instead of task icon - especially
   for filer and editor windows, this is very nice. It does not really
   help to know that there are seven filer windows in the desk to
   the left!
- why use scrollbars in MoreDesk's pager view? Just eats up space!
   Fixed it myself in templates ;-)
- in MultiDesk, pager view Select-Drag and Adjust-Drag work like
   real window drags wrt window stack position. I see that Select+Adjust
   are already used for selecting windows in MoreDesk's pager view,
   but I think this operation is in fact seldomly used in contrast
   to moving windows around!
- why use alt+double click to select desktops in pager view? Why is
   using alt+select double click closing the window - shouldn't this
   be the "special" operation? Why should one ever want to close the
   pager view? Why is the pager view resetted to the configured value
   when keeping it open with alt+adjust double click? Why is there no
   configure option "save position" for pager view? The configurable
   positions are just not precise enough for my environment.
- Alt+Drag allows "screensize step moving" in MultiDesk
- Shift+Drag allows "all windows of same application" window drag
   in MultiDesk - this is combinable with Alt+Shift+Drag, which is
   nice to move a whole app to a different desk, keeping all positions
   intact
- MultiDesk keeps pager view visible when moving around desks
   with Alt+Cursor

I think that sums it up. Note: my "benchmark" was MoreDesk 1.13 on
V-RPC. This was the only environment I had easily accessible atm.

> In my view, MultiDesk had several key features that made it much less than
> it should have been:
> 
> 1. the UI was, erm, quirky
> 2. I had to modify it in a few areas to make it less clunky
> 3. no overall view of the total desktop space
> 
> It's been so long now since I used it, I can't remember how I had to modify
> it. I think it was to do with disabling the really annoying scrolling
> slightly in one direction rather than by a whole desktop.

Hmmm. I'm not sure we're talking about the same MultiDesk. At least
the version I am using (1.13) is neither quirky nor clunky, and it
has an overall view of the desktop space. And it does not scroll ;-)

Could you please download from the link below and try it on your
favourite 26bit RISC OS...

http://ftp.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/systems/acorn/acornet/long/tools/desktop/multidesk.arc

Steffen

-- 
Steffen Huber
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/
0
spam9600 (698)
5/3/2008 9:24:00 PM
In article <20080503213535.7ea3325d@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
<h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> In <4f99c1ea78nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> David
> <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> > In article <8L%Sj.7853$b4.2100@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> > <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:59:55 +0100, Ste (news) wrote:
> > 
> > > > You can move menus in RISC OS - which is useful if they happen
> > > > to open somewhere that you don't want them. Right clicking and
> > > > keeping the menu tree open is a million times better than the
> > > > alternative. I've never seen another OS that has these features.
> > 
> > > Yes, people keep mention this.  The problems you mention are
> > > solved by Tear-off menus in Gtk and I believe Qt.  Different
> > > solutions to the same problem often have differing advantages and
> > > disadvantages, of course.
> > 
> > Tear-off menus do not solve the problems. Also, what on earth are
> > "Gtk" and "Qt" - and why hasn't the great Windows got this feature
> > if it's so desirable?

> How can you know tear-offs don't solve the problem if you haven't
> even heard of the GUIs that use them, let alone seen tear-offs in
> action?

Unless your tear-off menus allow for several levels of sub-menu to be
traversed, selecting from different sub-menus at different levels with
any changes to application or desktop taking effect without affecting
the menus except to update them, don't disappear until your final
selection is chosen or until you click elsewhere, and don't require a
special click to close them, they don't. Of course, not having seen
them, I honestly can't say that they do solve the same problem but they
just don't sound as though they behave as RO menus do or, surely, Rob
would have leapt up and down shouting about it.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/3/2008 9:58:14 PM
In article <4f99c90fc8spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH
<spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f99c4ec6cinvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
>    Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> > In a dim and distant universe
> > <c552a2994f.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
> > <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> > > I know you /can/ on RISC OS, but I'd question if anyone /does/.

> > I use this quite a bit, especially if I'm copying text into a
> > document from an open menu structure or 'Info' window (most of
> > which are sub-menus).

> > When I'm writing manuals and user documentation, I very frequently
> > want to have a menu open whilst I'm typing in another window.

> Personally, I'd put screenshots in the documentation anyway - so
> there would be no need for the open menu.

I suppose you Windows fanboys will always be able to find some method
or other of doing things differently to the RO way.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/3/2008 10:00:43 PM
In article <4f99c9e520spam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f99c35e4dnospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
>    David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <4f9997b76erichtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
> > <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:

> [...]

> > > As a writer, I do most of my work in Ovation Pro. So there I am
> > > tapping away with my fingers on the keyboard. If I want to
> > > activate a menu I have to take my hands off the keyboard and put
> > > a hand on the mouse (pick up the graphics pad pen) click to open
> > > the menu, click again to do what I want to do, then put down the
> > > mouse/pen to return to my typing.

> > It'd be okay for you and for anyone proficient at typing but for
> > some folk searching around the keyboard for the right keys (and
> > having to remember them all) might well be more difficult and
> > slower than grabbing the mouse. 

> Nobody has suggested keyboard navigation of windows and menus should
> *replace* doing so with the mouse. For those who prefer to use the
> mouse, the mouse would still be available.

Not exactly but there does seem to have been the merest hint that real
programmers use only the keyboard - and only the command line for
preference.

> (But bear in mind this is all hypothetical anyway, unless someone has
> both the time and inclination to start looking at the issue with a
> view to doing something about it).

Hypothetical? Of course it's hypothetical - this is csa.misc!

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/3/2008 10:03:59 PM
In <4f99e0e5fenospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> Unless your tear-off menus allow for several levels of sub-menu to be
> traversed, selecting from different sub-menus at different levels with
> any changes to application or desktop taking effect without affecting
> the menus except to update them, don't disappear until your final
> selection is chosen or until you click elsewhere, and don't require a
> special click to close them, they don't. Of course, not having seen
> them, I honestly can't say that they do solve the same problem but
> they just don't sound as though they behave as RO menus do or,
> surely, Rob would have leapt up and down shouting about it.

They turn into windows so they do all that except for requiring an extra
click to close them. They do have the advantage that you can keep them
open while working in dialog boxes.

I'm not surprised Rob doesn't find it exciting enough to jump up and
down: unlike RISC OS, Linux has other features that mean persistent
menus aren't one of the biggest highlights we can think of.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/3/2008 10:26:18 PM
In article <4f99e16ca6nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f99c9e520spam@softrock.co.uk>,
>    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

[...]

> > Nobody has suggested keyboard navigation of windows and menus
> > should *replace* doing so with the mouse. For those who prefer to
> > use the mouse, the mouse would still be available.

> Not exactly but there does seem to have been the merest hint that
> real programmers use only the keyboard - and only the command line
> for preference.

If that's true - and I'm not convinced it is - then I completely fail
to see what relevance it has to anything. ATEOTD, so what if
programmers *do* prefer keyboard navigation? How does that make it a
bad thing which should be discouraged?

Surely, if it *is* true that programmers prefer keyboard navigation
(and, therefore, presumably find it more efficient) then it would be
in the platform's interest to encourage it, not discourage it.

[And then I read your other post, in reply to me, where you responded
with another piece of "Windows fanboys" nonsense. I now think you're
just trolling.]

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/3/2008 10:32:57 PM
In article <6843f5F2rguuhU1@mid.individual.net>,
   Steffen Huber <spam@huber-net.de> wrote:
> I am only listing things that MultiDesk does (IMHO) better than MoreDesk -
> MoreDesk is generally a lot more powerful. Some things I regard as
> "better" others might regard as just "different".
>
> - MultiDesk iconbar icon shows all desks directly, allows direct
>    adjust-click to select desk

I experimented with that in MoreDesk but because it can have up to 49
desktops, the icon soon becomes unuseable. That's what the micro window is
for and that automatically opens and closes at key moments.

> - direct dragging of windows in pager view - MoreDesk waits for
>    end of drag to move real window

That's deliberate for two reasons. 1) performance when dragging a large
group of windows and 2) you can abort the drag by pressing escape.

> - scale factor more flexible - I'm using 0.06 in Multidesk!
>   (4x2 config - this gets very large in MoreDesk with its minimum 0.10)

The minimum value is actually a pretty arbitraty decision I made - actually
due to bugs in !ConfiX. You can make it smaller by changing the ConfiX
configuration file inside MoreDesk to allow a smaller minimum scale factor
(and change the step size for the up/down arrows).

> - use of title bar text in pager view instead of task icon - especially
>    for filer and editor windows, this is very nice. It does not really
>    help to know that there are seven filer windows in the desk to
>    the left!

Yes. That would lead to a very cluttered view though. I did have a title
(section) in the windows but you ended up seeing so little of it it just
didn't make sense.

You can run !Help and the full title and other info appears for each window
in that view.

> - why use scrollbars in MoreDesk's pager view? Just eats up space!
>    Fixed it myself in templates ;-)

That's fine, but the window is designed so that you can make it smaller and
scroll it around. Useful if it's bigger than your screen! It will auto
scroll if you're dragging windows around. I'm sure I could make that
configurable.

> - in MultiDesk, pager view Select-Drag and Adjust-Drag work like
>    real window drags wrt window stack position. I see that Select+Adjust
>    are already used for selecting windows in MoreDesk's pager view,
>    but I think this operation is in fact seldomly used in contrast
>    to moving windows around!

Maybe I can make that configurable. I like being able to deselect a window
with adjust, especially if a dragbox operation accidentally selected a
window or two which I didn't want included in a selection.

> - why use alt+double click to select desktops in pager view? Why is
>    using alt+select double click closing the window - shouldn't this
>    be the "special" operation? Why should one ever want to close the
>    pager view? Why is the pager view resetted to the configured value
>    when keeping it open with alt+adjust double click?

That's configurable. You can make it simple double-clicks.

>    Why is there no configure option "save position" for pager view? 

Because no one has asked for it! :) I can add that.

>    The configurable positions are just not precise enough for my 
>    environment.

Fair enough. Saving your "user" position would solve that, I presume.

> - Alt+Drag allows "screensize step moving" in MultiDesk

Yes. I really hated that (but each to their own of course). The main reason
why MoreDesk doesn't do it is because you can associate a pinboard and/or
backdrop image with each desktop. That would be very confusing in partial
scrolls because I cannot partially move the pinboard or backdrop image
(certainly not in any way which would take less than forever to animate on
native RISC OS hardware).

> - Shift+Drag allows "all windows of same application" window drag
>    in MultiDesk - this is combinable with Alt+Shift+Drag, which is
>    nice to move a whole app to a different desk, keeping all positions
>    intact

MoreDesk you select windows for the task using the "Select task" menu and
then move its windows.

> - MultiDesk keeps pager view visible when moving around desks
>    with Alt+Cursor

MoreDesk auto-opens the micro window for a couple of seconds whenever you
change desktop - irrespective of how you do so - and the current desktop is
always highlighted in that view.

> I think that sums it up. Note: my "benchmark" was MoreDesk 1.13 on
> V-RPC. This was the only environment I had easily accessible atm.

Cool. Lots of good ideas in there. I think a number of those issues have
been addressed since 1.13 (I'm on 1.17 now). Some of the other stuff was
considered and discarded during development and other things look like good
ideas for features to add.

> > In my view, MultiDesk had several key features that made it much less
> > than it should have been:
> > 
> > 1. the UI was, erm, quirky
> > 2. I had to modify it in a few areas to make it less clunky
> > 3. no overall view of the total desktop space
> > 
> > It's been so long now since I used it, I can't remember how I had to
> > modify it. I think it was to do with disabling the really annoying
> > scrolling slightly in one direction rather than by a whole desktop.
>
> Hmmm. I'm not sure we're talking about the same MultiDesk. At least
> the version I am using (1.13) is neither quirky nor clunky, and it
> has an overall view of the desktop space. And it does not scroll ;-)

You're quite right - I just checked and it was one called WindowMan that I
used to use so sorry about that. MultiDesk is one I haven't seen before.

In the help pages for MoreDesk I did a (mainly impartial) comparison of
features between MoreDesk and six other multiple desktop programs for RISC
OS. This was basically the output of my research before writing MoreDesk
while desparately looking for an app to do the main things I wanted (overall
desk space view, drag windows in that view, backdrop association per
desktop).

> Could you please download from the link below and try it on your favourite
> 26bit RISC OS...
>
> http://ftp.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/systems/acorn/acornet/long/tools/desktop/multidesk.arc

Ah, 26 bit only might explain why I didn't look at it. I'll give it a whirl
on VRPC to see what it's like.

Ta,

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 10:44:53 PM
In article <4f99e52b93steve@revi11.plus.com>,
   Ste (news) <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <6843f5F2rguuhU1@mid.individual.net>,
>    Steffen Huber <spam@huber-net.de> wrote:
> > - Alt+Drag allows "screensize step moving" in MultiDesk
>
> Yes. I really hated that (but each to their own of course). The main reason
> why MoreDesk doesn't do it is because you can associate a pinboard and/or
> backdrop image with each desktop. That would be very confusing in partial
> scrolls because I cannot partially move the pinboard or backdrop image
> (certainly not in any way which would take less than forever to animate on
> native RISC OS hardware).

Having got further down your post, I can see you didn't mean the thing I was
thinking you meant. It does indeed sound useful. The think I hated in
WindowMan was that you could scroll by a fraction of a screen size.

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/3/2008 10:52:53 PM
In der Nachricht <4f99528bb7miyuki@no.spam.here>
          Chika <miyuki@spam-no-way.invalid> hat geschrieben:

>> >> > PC Advisor have published a piece about the best operating systems:
>> >> > Linux, Mac OS X, Vista, and XP. Of course they have had to include
>> >> > two Windows versions because so many people are rejecting Vista.
>> > 
>> >> Internet Explorer?
>> > 
>> > Wash your mouth out! ;)
>> > 
>> >> Firefox?
> 
>> [total wrong interpretation of just two words]
> 
> Then you need to be a little clearer.

You cannot require this. I'm mountain man of the Alps and very 
uncommunicative.

>> Who needs an OS today if nearby everything runs via the webbrowser.
>> This was my meaning. I believe that futuristic computers must be online
>> around the clock because they aren't useable without it! You won't need
>> an OS, you'll just need a webbrowser. This will be the future. The
>> reason for this is, that the companies and governments can check you
>> everytime.
> 
> You know, I heard this argument at least a decade ago. It would be nice if
> it were actually true, but there are too many vested interests that like
> the status quo and the money it generates.

So there are still some clever people? Nice to hear.

>> The here described war is out-of-time. Most people know how to use the
>> webbrowser of their computers and nothing else more. So they send
>> emails over webpages, write textes via homepages etc.
> 
>> The world of webbrowsers are the really OSes for people today.
> 
> Yes and no. The current project I'm being roped into would tend to suggest
> that web browser setups are merely the poor relation of portal technology
> which is where the money seems to be being made right now, with all the
> gubbins that goes with it, from virtualisation to thin, embedded clients.
> To an extent, Acorn had the right of it back in the days of the
> Netstation. A pity they didn't hang around long enough to reap the profit,
> though I suspect that one or two folk will still be around to say "I told
> ya so".

Prophets have a very unpleasant life. It was always so.

A.

-- 
Venusberg, Upper Bavaria
British A7000+ (computer) running RISC OS 4.39 Adjust (OS)
Portrait & email: http://home.chiemgau-net.de/ausserstorfer/
0
5/4/2008 5:38:14 AM
In article <20080503232618.5446dfdf@tiber.realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
<h@realh.co.uk> wrote:
> In <4f99e0e5fenospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> David
> <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> > Unless your tear-off menus allow for several levels of sub-menu to
> > be traversed, selecting from different sub-menus at different
> > levels with any changes to application or desktop taking effect
> > without affecting the menus except to update them, don't disappear
> > until your final selection is chosen or until you click elsewhere,
> > and don't require a special click to close them, they don't. Of
> > course, not having seen them, I honestly can't say that they do
> > solve the same problem but they just don't sound as though they
> > behave as RO menus do or, surely, Rob would have leapt up and down
> > shouting about it.

> They turn into windows so they do all that except for requiring an
> extra click to close them. They do have the advantage that you can
> keep them open while working in dialog boxes.

And, of course, they're all pop-up menus rather than having to mouse
search for pull down menus, are they?

> I'm not surprised Rob doesn't find it exciting enough to jump up and
> down: unlike RISC OS, Linux has other features that mean persistent
> menus aren't one of the biggest highlights we can think of.

Linux? I thought he said "Gtk" and "Qt". However, as we were at that
point discussing menus and not other features, it would have been
rather silly of Rob to have introduced them, wouldn't it?

"My car does 0 to 60 in 4.3 seconds."

"Yeah, well, mine's red. So there!"

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 7:35:52 AM
In article <4f99e37406spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH
<spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f99e16ca6nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
>    <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <4f99c9e520spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH
> >    <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

> [...]

> > > Nobody has suggested keyboard navigation of windows and menus
> > > should *replace* doing so with the mouse. For those who prefer to
> > > use the mouse, the mouse would still be available.

> > Not exactly but there does seem to have been the merest hint that
> > real programmers use only the keyboard - and only the command line
> > for preference.

> If that's true - and I'm not convinced it is - then I completely fail
> to see what relevance it has to anything. ATEOTD, so what if
> programmers *do* prefer keyboard navigation? How does that make it a
> bad thing which should be discouraged?

> Surely, if it *is* true that programmers prefer keyboard navigation
> (and, therefore, presumably find it more efficient) then it would be
> in the platform's interest to encourage it, not discourage it.

Did you really miss the ever so subtle irony I used?

"You're just a common or garden /luser/ not a proper programmer so how
you navigate doesn't matter."

> [And then I read your other post, in reply to me, where you responded
> with another piece of "Windows fanboys" nonsense. I now think you're
> just trolling.]

Funny, I thought it was all the Windows aficionados attempting to do
down RISC OS as much as possible at every twist and turn who were the
trolls on this /Acorn/ newsgroup.

Time was - and not so long ago - when anyone daring to even hint at a
suggestion that anything on Windows might not be so bad would be
consigned on here by everyone to the deepest recesses of hell; now, the
newsgroup seems to be little more than a medium for knocking RISC OS,
and anyone who speaks up for it attacked and ridiculed for every
utterance.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 7:48:21 AM
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> 
> I suppose you Windows fanboys will always be able to find some method
> or other of doing things differently to the RO way.

You keep using the word 'fanboy'. The only others I have know to
habitually use it are ageing poofs.

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/4/2008 8:21:20 AM
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> 
> > [And then I read your other post, in reply to me, where you responded
> > with another piece of "Windows fanboys" nonsense. I now think you're
> > just trolling.]
> 
> Funny, I thought it was all the Windows aficionados attempting to do
> down RISC OS as much as possible at every twist and turn who were the
> trolls on this /Acorn/ newsgroup.

I think that most people accept that a lot of RISC OS users have Windows
or other machines because they need to do things that RISC OS can't do.
What has happened here is that some of those users have mentioned things
that Windows does better than RISC OS - like keyboard navigation - and
would like to see incorporated in RISC OS. On the other hand, there are
things that RISC OS does better than Windows - I cited drag and drop file
saving - and would like to see in other OSs. The discussion then moved on
to menus.

I think you have been homing in on the negatives, without taking part in a
discussion. Some RISC OS aficionados have accepted that keyboard
navigation is a good thing and PV has actually done a quick frig to make
it happen.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/4/2008 8:22:06 AM
In a dim and distant universe <4f9a16ed48nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> Did you really miss the ever so subtle irony I used?

> "You're just a common or garden /luser/ not a proper programmer so how
> you navigate doesn't matter."

And I'd have thought that any /proper/ programmer who wanted keyboard
shortcuts, could just implement it for themselves, especially now the
source code is available.

> Funny, I thought it was all the Windows aficionados attempting to do down
> RISC OS as much as possible at every twist and turn who were the trolls
> on this /Acorn/ newsgroup.

They are! I'm with you on this one.

> Time was - and not so long ago - when anyone daring to even hint at a
> suggestion that anything on Windows might not be so bad would be
> consigned on here by everyone to the deepest recesses of hell; now, the
> newsgroup seems to be little more than a medium for knocking RISC OS, and
> anyone who speaks up for it attacked and ridiculed for every utterance.

I completely agree with you!

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/4/2008 9:04:14 AM
In a dim and distant universe
<gemini.k0c4hs000imsc014s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

> I think that most people accept that a lot of RISC OS users have Windows
> or other machines because they need to do things that RISC OS can't do.

I bought a Mac, purely for video editing, but I find that I've not used it
in several months now. Occasionally people send me YouTube links, but I
just delete them because I find that YouTube is so full of tat, it's rarely
worth the effort of turning the Mac on and copying the URL across to it
from the Iyonix. It's far quicker to just delete the email and move onto
the next one.

> I think you have been homing in on the negatives, without taking part in
> a discussion. Some RISC OS aficionados have accepted that keyboard
> navigation is a good thing and PV has actually done a quick frig to make
> it happen.

I think that was Steve R, not me. All I did was add a large pointer to
MiscSetup, which is so trivial it's hardly worth a mention!

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
5/4/2008 9:07:36 AM
On Sat, 03 May 2008 20:52:18 +0100, Dave Higton wrote:

> In other words, the OS doesn't have the feature: some apps do.

The vast majority of GUI applications under UNIX are written using Gtk or 
Qt.  And in any case, it's up to the application under RISC OS to 
implement the right-click behaviour too.

> A straight choice from a long list?  I can't imagine how you could
> produce a better GUI.

Why have the long list?  Why not have something searchable instead?  Or 
browsable by category?  There are plenty of other ways of doing this that 
don't involve navigating through a long list.

B.

0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 9:44:17 AM
On Sat, 03 May 2008 17:19:49 +0100, David wrote:

> Tear-off menus do not solve the problems. Also, what on earth are "Gtk"
> and "Qt" 

If you don't know what Gtk and Qt are, how do you know that tear-off 
menus don't solve the problem?

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 9:44:56 AM
On Sun, 04 May 2008 08:35:52 +0100, David wrote:

> Linux? I thought he said "Gtk" and "Qt". However, as we were at that
> point discussing menus and not other features, it would have been rather
> silly of Rob to have introduced them, wouldn't it?

What are you talking about?  If you don't have any grasp of what is being 
said, don't try and tell people they're wrong.

Gtk and Qt are GUI toolkits used under Windows and X.  They are what the 
application uses to create windows, buttons, menus, etc.

Think of them as containing half the WIMP's functionality, where the 
other half of the WIMP's functionality is handled by the "window manager."

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 9:47:04 AM
On Sat, 03 May 2008 23:00:43 +0100, David wrote:

> I suppose you Windows fanboys will always be able to find some method or
> other of doing things differently to the RO way.

Let's get this over and done with.  Do you really believe that there is 
NOTHING that any other OS does that is worthwhile?  Do you think that 
anybody who suggests that RISC OS isn't unique in a specific way, or 
utterly wonderful is somehow a Windows fanboy?

If so, I think you better found 
comp.sys.acorn.blind.fundamentalist.advocacy.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 9:49:10 AM
On Sat, 03 May 2008 19:05:12 +0200, Steffen Huber wrote:

> Rob Kendrick wrote:
> tbh, I almost always have a terminal
>> open and find visiting the directory in the terminal and doing the cat
>> trick an order of magnitude faster, and doesn't require loading all of
>> the files into memory at once.
> 
> This only works faster if you can easily find a pattern in the filenames
> you want to concatenate. I often need a specific selection of files,
> which is a lot easier to select visually.

I can't say I've found that, but then it's likely our use cases differ.  
The combination of the compactness of the output of "ls" with the shell's 
tab completion makes it pretty prompt.  Plus, line history makes it easy 
to do the same or similar again without having to reselect all the files.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 9:51:22 AM
In article <4f9a16ed48nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f99e37406spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH
> <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

["proper programmers" allegedly prefer keyboard navigation and the
command line]

> > If that's true - and I'm not convinced it is - then I completely
> > fail to see what relevance it has to anything. ATEOTD, so what if
> > programmers *do* prefer keyboard navigation? How does that make
> > it a bad thing which should be discouraged?

> Did you really miss the ever so subtle irony I used?

> "You're just a common or garden /luser/ not a proper programmer so
> how you navigate doesn't matter."

It appears to be an irony that attributes a sentiment to my words
which wasn't there.

> > [And then I read your other post, in reply to me, where you
> > responded with another piece of "Windows fanboys" nonsense. I now
> > think you're just trolling.]

> Funny, I thought it was all the Windows aficionados attempting to
> do down RISC OS as much as possible at every twist and turn who
> were the trolls on this /Acorn/ newsgroup.

Suggesting that something is a useful feature, which RISC OS would
benefit from having, is *not* "doing down RISC OS", and being
pragmatic enough to recognise that and make the suggestion does not
make someone a troll - and, given that it's discussing where RISC OS
could be improved, that doesn't make it off-topic, which your
emphasis that this is an "/Acorn/ newsgroup" implies.

The converse argument is that you are doing down those who are trying
to make practical suggestions for the benefit/improvement of RISC OS
- suggestions which could be borne in mind by anyone reading this
with the time and/or inclination to work on the shared sources.

We should perhaps remind ourselves who the "Windows fanboys" you
directly named are, in <4f988d4cbanospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> :

Apart from Ray - who, let's face it, *is* a Windows fanboy :p - the
rest of your list are developers, all working on RISC OS software[1],
probably at the cost of a social life. If even one of the developers
on that list decided that enough was enough and, as a result of being
insulted and criticised as a reward for their efforts, decided to
take their ball home with them, then the RISC OS community as a whole
would suffer for it.

[1] Possible exception of Rob who, IIRC, doesn't actually work on the
RISC OS build of NetSurf, although I strongly suspect that some of
what he writes does benefit the RISC OS version.


> Time was - and not so long ago - when anyone daring to even hint at
> a suggestion that anything on Windows might not be so bad would be
> consigned on here by everyone to the deepest recesses of hell;

Time moves on and people and their perceptions change - as does the
software itself.

> now, the newsgroup seems to be little more than a medium for
> knocking RISC OS, and anyone who speaks up for it attacked and
> ridiculed for every utterance.

Speaking up for RISC OS doesn't necessarily attract that sort of
reaction - certainly not from those people you listed - unless there
is good reason. Good reason for criticising someone for sticking up
for RISC OS would include blind and ridiculous advocacy, and
poo-pooing perfectly good suggestions on the basis that Windows has
the feature, or the notion that RISC OS doesn't need it because it
doesn't have it already. Both of which seem pretty much to be where
we came in with this subthread and keyboard navigation of windows.

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/4/2008 10:41:05 AM
On Sun, 04 May 2008 10:41:05 +0000, VinceH wrote:

> [1] Possible exception of Rob who, IIRC, doesn't actually work on the
> RISC OS build of NetSurf, although I strongly suspect that some of what
> he writes does benefit the RISC OS version.

Most of my work is on the GTK version, yes - however much of what I do 
does either directly or indirectly benefit the RISC OS version.  And it's 
not the only RISC OS project or organisation I contribute to, help with, 
or donate services to by a long way.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 10:55:09 AM
In message <0cWdnbdqMtib3YHVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net>, Alex Macfarlane
Smith  wrote:

> Adam wrote:
> > On comp.sys.acorn.misc, in message
> > <4f9976e044steve@revi11.plus.com>, Ste (news) wrote:
> > 
> > > What would be hard (and I say this from long experience) is
> > > getting all of the edge cases to work: people who don't set the
> > > pane bit of a window but then use it as a pane window, windows
> > > with no title, windows with a junk value for the length of the
> > > indirected title text, hot key windows that shouldn't be
> > > moved/looked at, windows that implement pane windows incorrectly
> > > so bringing it to the front would leave the pane windows behind,
> > 
> > I've just been implementing my first ever pane window (using the
> > DeskLib Pane2 module). How is are panes supposed to behave in this
> > respect? I used "MoveWind" to test my window. If I click on the pane
> > to bring it to the front, nothing happens. If I click on the main
> > window to bring it to the front, the main window pops forward, but
> > the pane seems to disappear. Should I expect everything to pop to
> > the front all together in both cases?

I've just been playing around a bit more with other apps which have
panes, and none of them seem to behave how I'd expect. I wonder if
someone could provide an example of a correctly-behaving app?


> These days you're probably better using the nested WIMP.

What advantages does that provide?


Thanks,
Adam

-- 
Adam Richardson          Carpe Diem
http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/
0
news4275 (1182)
5/4/2008 11:05:14 AM
In message <c2f3289a4f.admin@snowstone.org.uk>
          Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <0cWdnbdqMtib3YHVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net>, Alex Macfarlane
> Smith  wrote:

> I've just been playing around a bit more with other apps which have
> panes, and none of them seem to behave how I'd expect. I wonder if
> someone could provide an example of a correctly-behaving app?

IMFMRC, the only thing the Wimp does differently for a window with the 
pane bit set is to give the parent window the input focus if the pane 
gets it. All other behaviour has to be programmed by you. Can someone 
confirm that my failing memory has indeed recalled correctly?

>> These days you're probably better using the nested WIMP.

> What advantages does that provide?

Using child windows provides considerably more flexibility and control 
than panes.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents
0
spamhater1 (1060)
5/4/2008 11:20:08 AM
In article <sCfTj.9152$EH2.2787@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 04 May 2008 08:35:52 +0100, David wrote:

> > Linux? I thought he said "Gtk" and "Qt". However, as we were at
> > that point discussing menus and not other features, it would have
> > been rather silly of Rob to have introduced them, wouldn't it?

> What are you talking about?  If you don't have any grasp of what is
> being said, don't try and tell people they're wrong.

I have a full grasp of what's being said; we're discussing /operating
systems/ at war.

> Gtk and Qt are GUI toolkits used under Windows and X.  They are what
> the application uses to create windows, buttons, menus, etc.

> Think of them as containing half the WIMP's functionality, where the
> other half of the WIMP's functionality is handled by the "window
> manager."

Well, there you are. They're not operating systems, are they? No doubt
a RO programmer could, be he so minded, create tear off menus to
replace the standard RO type.

Back to what you said:

"The problems you mention are solved by Tear-off menus in Gtk and I
believe Qt."

In the light of what you've now written, shouldn't you have instead
said:

"The problems you mention are solved by Tear-off menus in Windows."

Nevertheless, I still don't think that tear off menus is the equivalent
nor solves the same "problems". They are a different solution and they
require extra mouse actions/key presses.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 11:23:34 AM
In article <sAfTj.9151$EH2.7096@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 17:19:49 +0100, David wrote:

> > Tear-off menus do not solve the problems. Also, what on earth are
> > "Gtk" and "Qt" 

> If you don't know what Gtk and Qt are, how do you know that tear-off
> menus don't solve the problem?

I know what the earth is generally, and parts of it more specifically,
but I don't know who or what created it.

Stop trying to find holes just for the fear of losing some point here
and there; and please stop coming out with this attitude that everyone
else can know nothing, can't use their brains, can't have any valid
opinion, don't have a right to claim that their difficulties or
preferences are equal to yours. There's one or two folk like that
around here and they're all god's-right-hand programmers.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 11:33:19 AM
In article <gemini.k0c4jr000k5ty014s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray
Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> > 
> > I suppose you Windows fanboys will always be able to find some
> > method or other of doing things differently to the RO way.

> You keep using the word 'fanboy'. The only others I have know to
> habitually use it are ageing poofs.

Ray, I offer no comments on the company you keep but is it really wise
to offer the group such an insight into your private life?

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 11:35:57 AM
In article <4f99c35e4dnospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>, David
<nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f9997b76erichtnews@uwclub.net>, Richard Travers
> <richtnews@uwclub.net> wrote:


> > As a writer, I do most of my work in Ovation Pro. So there I am tapping
> > away with my fingers on the keyboard. If I want to activate a menu I
> > have to take my hands off the keyboard and put a hand on the mouse
> > (pick up the graphics pad pen) click to open the menu, click again to
> > do what I want to do, then put down the mouse/pen to return to my
> > typing.

> It'd be okay for you and for anyone proficient at typing but for some
> folk searching around the keyboard for the right keys (and having to
> remember them all) might well be more difficult and slower than grabbing
> the mouse. 

It seems doubtful to me. I already can open the menu with one key on the
keyboard. Admittedly this is a Microsoft keyboard, but I _am_ working on
the RISC OS desktop. Then all I need is the cursor keys to move up and down
the menu, and 'Enter' to make a selection. I don't believe the cursor keys
and the 'Enter' key are difficult to remember. Sadly, I do not yet have
that facility.

> The mouse-pointer is an extension of the innate ability to move the hand
> to locate and touch objects directly and doing so provides a greater
> sensory feedback. Many tasks on the computer are not really word based or
> typing based - e.g. image manipulation - and use of a device such as the
> mouse even for menus is probably much easier than would be use of the
> keyboard. 

I am _not_ saying that the mouse is not a great way of doing other things. I
_am_ saying that RISC OS would be much more productive in the kind of
situation that I am describing, if menus could be accessed and used from the
keyboard.

> That said, I can see the difficulty for laptops as opposed to desktop.

Can you? Actually the touch pad on a lap-top is rather closer to the
keyboard than the mouse, so in some ways it is easier. Sadly, I haven't seen
news of a RISC OS laptop yet.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/4/2008 11:38:48 AM
On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:23:34 +0100, David wrote:

>> Gtk and Qt are GUI toolkits used under Windows and X.  They are what
>> the application uses to create windows, buttons, menus, etc.
> 
>> Think of them as containing half the WIMP's functionality, where the
>> other half of the WIMP's functionality is handled by the "window
>> manager."
> 
> Well, there you are. They're not operating systems, are they? 

No, but they're part of an operating system: in the same way the WIMP is.

> No doubt a
> RO programmer could, be he so minded, create tear off menus to replace
> the standard RO type.

It's already been done.  It's very involved, however.  Look at Mark 
Wooding's Straylight stuff.  I don't believe anybody ported his hack to 
work on anything more recent than RISC OS 3.6.

> Back to what you said:
> 
> "The problems you mention are solved by Tear-off menus in Gtk and I
> believe Qt."
> 
> In the light of what you've now written, shouldn't you have instead
> said:
> 
> "The problems you mention are solved by Tear-off menus in Windows."

The above shows that you've not been paying attention to what I've been 
saying, as you'd rather fly off the handle and label me as a Windows 
fanboy, where everything I've been saying has been from the UNIX 
perspective.  Additionally, it shows you've no real knowledge of Windows 
either, putting you in a pretty bad position to say anything meaningful 
on this subject.

B.

0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 11:40:15 AM
In article <qEfTj.9154$EH2.6364@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 23:00:43 +0100, David wrote:

> > I suppose you Windows fanboys will always be able to find some
> > method or other of doing things differently to the RO way.

> Let's get this over and done with.  Do you really believe that there
> is NOTHING that any other OS does that is worthwhile?  Do you think
> that anybody who suggests that RISC OS isn't unique in a specific
> way, or utterly wonderful is somehow a Windows fanboy?

No. I don't think I'm the one who's doing the put downs here; I'm sure
that Windows, Linux, MacOS, and all the other little ponies, do a great
job but also have lots of faults but I wouldn't dream of hanging around
newsgroups dedicated to Windows, Linux, MacOS, and all the other little
ponies, trying to put them down all the time like all that some folk
seem to be here to do.

> If so, I think you better found
> comp.sys.acorn.blind.fundamentalist.advocacy.

Grow up.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 11:41:37 AM
In article <gemini.k0c4hs000imsc014s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray
Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> > 
> > > [And then I read your other post, in reply to me, where you
> > > responded with another piece of "Windows fanboys" nonsense. I now
> > > think you're just trolling.]
> > 
> > Funny, I thought it was all the Windows aficionados attempting to
> > do down RISC OS as much as possible at every twist and turn who
> > were the trolls on this /Acorn/ newsgroup.

> I think that most people accept that a lot of RISC OS users have
> Windows or other machines because they need to do things that RISC OS
> can't do. What has happened here is that some of those users have
> mentioned things that Windows does better than RISC OS - like
> keyboard navigation - and would like to see incorporated in RISC OS.
> On the other hand, there are things that RISC OS does better than
> Windows - I cited drag and drop file saving - and would like to see
> in other OSs. The discussion then moved on to menus.

There are some who seem to be arguing that RO does nothing better than
Windows - or if it does then it isn't better than Linux so it still
doesn't count as any good.

> I think you have been homing in on the negatives, without taking part
> in a discussion. Some RISC OS aficionados have accepted that keyboard
> navigation is a good thing and PV has actually done a quick frig to
> make it happen.

Yes, no doubt it would be a good thing for those who would use it. I do
object to folk saying (or implying) that RO is useless because it
doesn't have it. We seem to be forgetting that the mouse drove forward
the desktop metaphor and dragged personal computing right out of the
command line stone age.

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 11:45:58 AM
On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:41:37 +0100, David wrote:

> In article <qEfTj.9154$EH2.6364@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
> <nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 May 2008 23:00:43 +0100, David wrote:
> 
>> > I suppose you Windows fanboys will always be able to find some method
>> > or other of doing things differently to the RO way.
> 
>> Let's get this over and done with.  Do you really believe that there is
>> NOTHING that any other OS does that is worthwhile?  Do you think that
>> anybody who suggests that RISC OS isn't unique in a specific way, or
>> utterly wonderful is somehow a Windows fanboy?
> 
> No. I don't think I'm the one who's doing the put downs here; I'm sure
> that Windows, Linux, MacOS, and all the other little ponies, do a great
> job but also have lots of faults but I wouldn't dream of hanging around
> newsgroups dedicated to Windows, Linux, MacOS, and all the other little
> ponies, trying to put them down all the time like all that some folk
> seem to be here to do.

So, mentioning ways that RISC OS is lacking and how it could be improved 
is putting it down?  Bitching at people, assuming everything is perfect 
and wonderful, throwing insults and false accusations is entirely 
constructive?

Your comments on this thread show nothing but profound ignorance.  And 
you've clearly not even read what is being said - you'd rather just 
complain at the people rather than at the problems they reveal.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 11:47:12 AM
On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:45:58 +0100, David wrote:

> There are some who seem to be arguing that RO does nothing better than
> Windows - or if it does then it isn't better than Linux so it still
> doesn't count as any good.

Please point me at a posting that says that.

> I do object to folk saying (or implying) that RO is useless because it
> doesn't have it.

Please point me at a posting that says this, too.

B.

0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 11:50:14 AM
In article <4f9a16ed48nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f99e37406spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH
> <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:


> > [And then I read your other post, in reply to me, where you responded
> > with another piece of "Windows fanboys" nonsense. I now think you're
> > just trolling.]

> Funny, I thought it was all the Windows aficionados attempting to do
> down RISC OS as much as possible at every twist and turn who were the
> trolls on this /Acorn/ newsgroup.

As far as I was concerned, I was suggesting a possible improvement to the
RISC OS menu system. 

You could take that as me 'doing down' RISC OS (but if that is the case, you
might like to ask yourself why I do most of my work in RISCOS), or you could
take it as suggeting a way of making RISC OS more acceptable to its currrent
and potential users.

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/4/2008 11:50:59 AM
In article <4f9a25bb5espam@softrock.co.uk>,
   VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f9a16ed48nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
>    David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <4f99e37406spam@softrock.co.uk>, VinceH
> > <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

> ["proper programmers" allegedly prefer keyboard navigation and the
> command line]

> > > If that's true - and I'm not convinced it is - then I completely
> > > fail to see what relevance it has to anything. ATEOTD, so what if
> > > programmers *do* prefer keyboard navigation? How does that make
> > > it a bad thing which should be discouraged?

> > Did you really miss the ever so subtle irony I used?

> > "You're just a common or garden /luser/ not a proper programmer so
> > how you navigate doesn't matter."

> It appears to be an irony that attributes a sentiment to my words
> which wasn't there.

You're not the only person with whom I'm discsussing (Hah!) this issue.

> > > [And then I read your other post, in reply to me, where you
> > > responded with another piece of "Windows fanboys" nonsense. I now
> > > think you're just trolling.]

> > Funny, I thought it was all the Windows aficionados attempting to
> > do down RISC OS as much as possible at every twist and turn who
> > were the trolls on this /Acorn/ newsgroup.

> Suggesting that something is a useful feature, which RISC OS would
> benefit from having, is *not* "doing down RISC OS", and being
> pragmatic enough to recognise that and make the suggestion does not
> make someone a troll - and, given that it's discussing where RISC OS
> could be improved, that doesn't make it off-topic, which your
> emphasis that this is an "/Acorn/ newsgroup" implies.

> The converse argument is that you are doing down those who are trying
> to make practical suggestions for the benefit/improvement of RISC OS
> - suggestions which could be borne in mind by anyone reading this
> with the time and/or inclination to work on the shared sources.

I'm all for practical suggestions to improve RO. What I'm objecting to
is the attitude of some folks here who slap down /every/ aspect of RO
as being done better elsewhere (Windows is better than RO because Linux
does [some action] better than RO - eh?); who declare every difference
from RO in Windows to be an advantage (as, for example, Ray's take on
Windows's split menu systems); who can't seem just to agree that
something that RO does is 'good' but have to say that Windows/Linux is
either better or just as good (but in a different way).

> We should perhaps remind ourselves who the "Windows fanboys" you
> directly named are, in <4f988d4cbanospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> :

> Apart from Ray - who, let's face it, *is* a Windows fanboy :p - the
> rest of your list are developers, all working on RISC OS software[1],
> probably at the cost of a social life. If even one of the developers
> on that list decided that enough was enough and, as a result of being
> insulted and criticised as a reward for their efforts, decided to
> take their ball home with them, then the RISC OS community as a whole
> would suffer for it.

Don't try to lay that on me. I'm not criticising anyone for developing
RO. On the other hand, anyone - developer, user, whatever - coming on
here should not expect their opinion to be taken as the Word Of God.

> [1] Possible exception of Rob who, IIRC, doesn't actually work on the
> RISC OS build of NetSurf, although I strongly suspect that some of
> what he writes does benefit the RISC OS version.

But I am surprised, given the attitudes expressed, that some should be
working in RO. It does read as though they'd be much happier writing
for Windows or Linux.

> > Time was - and not so long ago - when anyone daring to even hint at
> > a suggestion that anything on Windows might not be so bad would be
> > consigned on here by everyone to the deepest recesses of hell;

> Time moves on and people and their perceptions change - as does the
> software itself.

Yes, well how about renaming the newsgroups to c.s.a.is.useless ?

> > now, the newsgroup seems to be little more than a medium for
> > knocking RISC OS, and anyone who speaks up for it attacked and
> > ridiculed for every utterance.

> Speaking up for RISC OS doesn't necessarily attract that sort of
> reaction - certainly not from those people you listed - unless there
> is good reason. Good reason for criticising someone for sticking up
> for RISC OS would include blind and ridiculous advocacy, and
> poo-pooing perfectly good suggestions on the basis that Windows has
> the feature, or the notion that RISC OS doesn't need it because it
> doesn't have it already. Both of which seem pretty much to be where
> we came in with this subthread and keyboard navigation of windows.

I'm all for keyboard navigation but what's the point if everyone
prefers using Windows?

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 12:00:10 PM
In article <hCgTj.9682$EH2.4040@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Rob Kendrick
<nntp@rjek.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 04 May 2008 10:41:05 +0000, VinceH wrote:

> > [1] Possible exception of Rob who, IIRC, doesn't actually work on
> > the RISC OS build of NetSurf, although I strongly suspect that some
> > of what he writes does benefit the RISC OS version.

> Most of my work is on the GTK version, yes - however much of what I
> do does either directly or indirectly benefit the RISC OS version. 
> And it's not the only RISC OS project or organisation I contribute
> to, help with, or donate services to by a long way.

Why? You don't come across as liking anything about RO.

Do you like RO? If so, what is it about RO that /you/ like?

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/
0
nospam3537 (802)
5/4/2008 12:01:41 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4nhTj.10201$EH2.5547@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> enlightened us thusly:
> So, mentioning ways that RISC OS is lacking and how it could be improved
> is putting it down?

No, but a number of people around here seem to be insisting that, "Oh
Windows can do this, that and the other if you do this or that, or install
such and such'.

During the course of this thread many benefits of RISC OS have been
highlighted, but a number of people seem intend on saying, "Oh yes, but
Windows can probably do that if you do ....blah blah blah".

I for one am not interested in what Windows (or other systems) can be made
to do if you install X, Y or Z etc. Windows has so many things that I
absolutely detest and loath, that I don't care if one or two benefits of
RISC OS are also implemented or added to it. The sheer total number of
Windows annoyances drives me to despair within about 5 minutes of having to
use it.

If people like certain aspects of Windows, then fine they can go off and
use them to their hearts content. However, I'm only interested in
subscribing to this newsgroup for it's RISC OS content.

Sure we can discuss how RISC OS can be improved (and it's not perfect - but
a damn site more perfect than Windows GUI will ever be! - IMHO) but the
continued "yes it can, no it can't" arguments are hardly very constructive.

> Your comments on this thread show nothing but profound ignorance.  And
> you've clearly not even read what is being said - you'd rather just
> complain at the people rather than at the problems they reveal.

I don't think they do. I think David has highlighted a continued
exasperation a number of people feel about singing the benefits of RISC OS,
only to start a whole argument about how such and such does something
better. Personal preferences are fine, but continued put downs of RISC OS
without justification, just exasperate people who disagree.

Paul

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
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0
5/4/2008 12:20:50 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f9a2e1e71nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> enlightened us thusly:

> Do you like RO? If so, what is it about RO that /you/ like?

Good point. I'd be interested in hearing Rob's answer to his own question
too. :-)

-- 
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Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
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0
5/4/2008 12:23:18 PM
On Sun, 04 May 2008 13:01:41 +0100, David wrote:

> Why? You don't come across as liking anything about RO.

Do not confuse knowing about, accepting, and understanding RISC OS's 
limitations as not liking it.

> Do you like RO? If so, what is it about RO that /you/ like?

I'm interested in operating systems, and I'm interested in the ARM.  RISC 
OS is an interesting ARM operating system for which I've used, written 
for, and known about extensively for many years.  Sure, it's a toy hobby 
OS, but like most hobbies, it's still likable.

B.
0
nntp550 (4244)
5/4/2008 12:26:30 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f9a2aa133nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> Nevertheless, I still don't think that tear off menus is the equivalent
> nor solves the same "problems". They are a different solution and they
> require extra mouse actions/key presses.

Another thing in Windows that constantly annoys me is the way it
automatically truncates menus by only displaying a tiny subset of the menu
options available and you have to constantly expand the menu to get at the
other options.

Yes, I know you can enable 'full' menus all the time, but for some reason
Windows keeps forgetting the setting and before long reverts to truncating
things again! Aggghhh!!

And as for Vista's exasperating way of asking you about three times before
it does anything!! Again, I know you can turn off this option, and again it
seems to revert back to treating you as an idiot soon later.

Forget about RISC OS advocates calling Windows users lusers, idiots, morons
or worse. Microsoft is treating all their Windows users as complete morons,
by making things so tedious for anyone except the most brain-dead mollusc!!

Paul

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
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0
5/4/2008 12:29:26 PM
In article <4f9a2dfaa5nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>,
   David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4f9a25bb5espam@softrock.co.uk>,
>    VinceH <spam@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

[...]

> > > Did you really miss the ever so subtle irony I used?

> > > "You're just a common or garden /luser/ not a proper programmer
> > > so how you navigate doesn't matter."

> > It appears to be an irony that attributes a sentiment to my words
> > which wasn't there.

> You're not the only person with whom I'm discsussing (Hah!) this
> issue.

In that case, it appears to be an irony that attributes a sentiment
to a number of people who don't appear to have expressed it. Point me
to a post which *does* say or imply anything like that.

[...]

> > The converse argument is that you are doing down those who are
> > trying to make practical suggestions for the benefit/improvement
> > of RISC OS - suggestions which could be borne in mind by anyone
> > reading this with the time and/or inclination to work on the
> > shared sources.

> I'm all for practical suggestions to improve RO. What I'm objecting
> to is the attitude of some folks here who slap down /every/ aspect
> of RO as being done better elsewhere

So follow-up those posts, from those folks, with your ranting and
raving, instead of following-up posts that don't do that. It just
confuses the issue when you rant in reply to person A, because you
don't like the attitude of person Z. It also leads to ill-feeling
(and this person A is feeling ill, so that's really not helpful), and
resentment.

[...]

> > We should perhaps remind ourselves who the "Windows fanboys" you
> > directly named are, in <4f988d4cbanospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> :

> > Apart from Ray - who, let's face it, *is* a Windows fanboy :p -
> > the rest of your list are developers, all working on RISC OS
> > software[1], probably at the cost of a social life. If even one
> > of the developers on that list decided that enough was enough
> > and, as a result of being insulted and criticised as a reward for
> > their efforts, decided to take their ball home with them, then
> > the RISC OS community as a whole would suffer for it.

> Don't try to lay that on me. I'm not criticising anyone for
> developing RO.

Not quite what I meant. I realise you aren't actually criticising the
software produced, but by criticising those who produce it - even if
for other reasons - is still going to be received in the way I
described: Criticism as a reward for doing something for the platform.

It wouldn't be so bad if the criticism is justified - if it was, fair
enough - but it isn't. I know this, because I'm one of the people
listed, and I am not guilty by a long shot of what you've claimed.

[...]

-- 
VinceH
0
spam5752 (1717)
5/4/2008 12:37:15 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f9a2c2111richtnews@uwclub.net>,
   Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> enlightened us thusly:
> It seems doubtful to me. I already can open the menu with one key on the
> keyboard. Admittedly this is a Microsoft keyboard, but I _am_ working on
> the RISC OS desktop. Then all I need is the cursor keys to move up and
> down the menu, and 'Enter' to make a selection. I don't believe the
> cursor keys and the 'Enter' key are difficult to remember. Sadly, I do
> not yet have that facility.

Download Steve Revill's latest version of WinMenu then -
http://www.7thsoftware.com/software.htm

He only added this yesterday, and I doubt you'd get such excellent (and
quick) service from Microsoft programmers! :-)

> I am _not_ saying that the mouse is not a great way of doing other
> things. I _am_ saying that RISC OS would be much more productive in the
> kind of situation that I am describing, if menus could be accessed and
> used from the keyboard.

Before everyone saying that this is a major shortcoming of RISC OS and
moaning about it (and I'll admit that Windows/MacOS keyboard navigation is
better than RISC OS), how many people actually require this.

It's all well and good saying that such and such is no good or could be
better but how many people actually *require* this. Although I agree it's
one area RISC OS may be lacking - from a generic point of view. From a
reality point of view, I have no need for keyboard navigation, as I prefer
using a mouse for desktop use.

At the end of the day, if all the existing RISC OS users are perfectly
happy with the GUI and all the people who complain about it are perfectly
happy using Windows, then there's no point wasting resources in an attempt
to change the status quo.

Where we need new improvements and things is in attracting *new* users to
RISC OS (something I've done quite a lot of recently, and keyboard
navigation didn't even come into it!). However, for this, I'm sure there
are more important gaps in RISC OS' capability than adding keyboard
shortcuts.

> Can you? Actually the touch pad on a lap-top is rather closer to the
> keyboard than the mouse, so in some ways it is easier. Sadly, I haven't
> seen news of a RISC OS laptop yet.

Aggghh! Nooooo. laptop touch pads are absolutely useless and worse than
useless (again, IMHO - other people may /love/ then). I can't use the
touchpad on either my Apple Powerbook or Linux laptop. I have to plug a
mouse in before I can use them.

Paul

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
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0
5/4/2008 12:38:36 PM
In a dim and distant universe <c2f3289a4f.admin@snowstone.org.uk>,
   Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> I've just been playing around a bit more with other apps which have
> panes, and none of them seem to behave how I'd expect. I wonder if
> someone could provide an example of a correctly-behaving app?

I've no idea if it's "correct" as I merely coded it to behave how *I*
expected it to work, but my ROTunes application makes quite extensive use
of panes and linked windows/toolbars etc.
The main window has no less than four panes/toolbars/linked
windows/whatever you call them, which move/work together.

-- 
Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
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0
5/4/2008 12:41:15 PM
In a dim and distant universe <WXhTj.10595$EH2.692@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Rob Kendrick <nntp@rjek.com> enlightened us thusly:
[Snippety snip]

> I'm interested in operating systems, and I'm interested in the ARM.  RISC
> OS is an interesting ARM operating system for which I've used, written
> for, and known about extensively for many years.  Sure, it's a toy hobby
> OS, but like most hobbies, it's still likable.

You still haven't really said what specific features you like about it
though. What makes it still likable?

-- 
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Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
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0
5/4/2008 12:45:01 PM
In article <4f99cc91b6steve@revi11.plus.com>, Ste (news)
<steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <4f99ca1bc3steve@revi11.plus.com>, Ste (news)
>    <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> > In article <4f99c5ab2einvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>, Paul
> >    Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> > > That just simulates the 'Windows' button pressing the middle mouse
> > > button. It doesn't appear to actually let you navigate the menus from
> > > the keyboard.
> >
> > Correct. I wrote it because when using VA it had the "Menu" key set to
> > open a menu but on my Dell laptop that key is right at the top of the
> > keyboad and a pain to use. So I wrote WinMenu to make the "Windows" key
> > open menus - which helped me because the "Windows" key is down between
> > the left shift and alt keys.

> For a bit of a laugh, I've added keyboard navigation of menus to WinMenu.
> This is very much a bodge rather than the 'right' way of doing things but
> it is a bit of fun.

>   http://www.7thsoftware.com/software.htm

Wow! Somebody is actually listening. I'll give that a try when I get the
chance!

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/4/2008 12:46:23 PM
In article <4f99cc91b6steve@revi11.plus.com>, Ste (news)
<steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <4f99ca1bc3steve@revi11.plus.com>, Ste (news)
>    <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> > In article <4f99c5ab2einvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>, Paul
> >    Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> > > That just simulates the 'Windows' button pressing the middle mouse
> > > button. It doesn't appear to actually let you navigate the menus from
> > > the keyboard.
> >
> > Correct. I wrote it because when using VA it had the "Menu" key set to
> > open a menu but on my Dell laptop that key is right at the top of the
> > keyboad and a pain to use. So I wrote WinMenu to make the "Windows" key
> > open menus - which helped me because the "Windows" key is down between
> > the left shift and alt keys.

> For a bit of a laugh, I've added keyboard navigation of menus to WinMenu.
> This is very much a bodge rather than the 'right' way of doing things but
> it is a bit of fun.

>   http://www.7thsoftware.com/software.htm

OK - tried it now.

Works great in Pluto. Either the Windows or the keyboard Menu button bring
up the menu. Cursor keys navigate the menu whichever key has been used.

Also works fine in Artworks.

In Photodesk, the menu comes up (either button), but the cursor keys don't
work. In Ovation Pro (where I really need it to work), the Windows button
does not bring up the menu (the keyboard Menu key does), and the cursor keys
do not work.

 A great start to what could be a really useful application. Please, please
keep working on it!

And, I repeat, thanks for listening!

R

-- 

  Richard Travers 
  richtnews@uwclub.net
  
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
0
richtnews (271)
5/4/2008 1:01:50 PM
In <4f9a2dfaa5nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid>
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> I'm all for practical suggestions to improve RO. What I'm objecting to
> is the attitude of some folks here who slap down /every/ aspect of RO
> as being done better elsewhere (Windows is better than RO because
> Linux does [some action] better than RO - eh?); who declare every
> difference from RO in Windows to be an advantage (as, for example,
> Ray's take on Windows's split menu systems); who can't seem just to
> agree that something that RO does is 'good' but have to say that
> Windows/Linux is either better or just as good (but in a different
> way).

Nobody's said that Linux makes Windows better than RISC OS.

RISC OS fanboys (to use your term) keep claiming that certain features
are unique to RISC OS when they aren't. Then they make excuses that they
don't count because they're "not part of the OS" (when they're not part
of RISC OS either, just a common application feature) or not enabled by
default.

Perhaps you really don't care that you have to cross your fingers that
your browser will cope every time you visit a web site and that the main
reason you can't run a viable version of Firefox is because the OS is
too weak. I consider a stable world class browser more important than
being able to save the odd mouse click or movement when accessing menus.

RISC OS is "nice" but rationally analysing everything it has to offer
compared to Windows, Linux or Mac OS it can only come a poor last.

> But I am surprised, given the attitudes expressed, that some should be
> working in RO. It does read as though they'd be much happier writing
> for Windows or Linux.

Maybe I'm not happier now than I was when writing for RISC OS in the
"good old days", but programming for Linux is definitely more rewarding
now than for RISC OS.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

0
h5305 (139)
5/4/2008 1:07:22 PM
Rob Kendrick wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 20:52:18 +0100, Dave Higton wrote:
> 
>> In other words, the OS doesn't have the feature: some apps do.
> 
> The vast majority of GUI applications under UNIX are written using Gtk or 
> Qt.

Really? Do you have any numbers to back that up? And how many
apps are only available either using Qt or using GTK, essentially
halving the available apps if you want a consistent user interface?

The multitude of toolkits is the main stumbling block for Linux
desktop usage IMHO - often, just the software you need uses the
toolkit not native to your desktop.

> And in any case, it's up to the application under RISC OS to 
> implement the right-click behaviour too.

Ultimately, everything is up to the app. Like e.g. using standard
GTK calls on Unix platforms to enable GTK features. I don't
think this is a sensible dividing line - in any case, I have
never seen an app on RISC OS *not* supporting right-click behaviour.

Anyway, what this discussion nicely shows is the difficulty in
drawing a line between OS, GUI, window manager, toolkit,
application and installed "helpful tools". On top of that,
familiarisation is a force not to be underestimated when trying
to find out what is "better".

Steffen

-- 
Steffen Huber
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/
0
spam9600 (698)
5/4/2008 1:23:41 PM
Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

> > I am _not_ saying that the mouse is not a great way of doing other
> > things. I _am_ saying that RISC OS would be much more productive in
> > the kind of situation that I am describing, if menus could be accessed
> > and used from the keyboard.
> 
> Before everyone saying that this is a major shortcoming of RISC OS and
> moaning about it (and I'll admit that Windows/MacOS keyboard navigation
> is better than RISC OS), how many people actually require this.
> 
> It's all well and good saying that such and such is no good or could be
> better but how many people actually *require* this. Although I agree
> it's one area RISC OS may be lacking - from a generic point of view.
> From a reality point of view, I have no need for keyboard navigation, as
> I prefer using a mouse for desktop use.

It seems a lot of RISC OS users who also use Windows/other OSs do actually
use the keyboard navigation in those OSs and get used to them. Coming back
to RISC OS they miss them. It's a bit like some PC/RISC OS users loading
PCkeys to make the other keys compatible between the two OSs.

I suppose one danger is that, if you become comfortable doing keyboard
things on Windows and can't on RISC OS, you may stay on the Windows side
purely out of convenience. The more compatibility is between RISC OS and
the others, the more likely you are to stay using RISC OS.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/4/2008 1:23:45 PM
On 4 May, Alan Wrigley  wrote in message
  <c8502a9a4f.alan@eatnomeat.co.uk>:

> In message <c2f3289a4f.admin@snowstone.org.uk>
>           Adam <news@snowstone.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In message <0cWdnbdqMtib3YHVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net>, Alex
> > Macfarlane Smith  wrote:
> 
> > I've just been playing around a bit more with other apps which have
> > panes, and none of them seem to behave how I'd expect. I wonder if
> > someone could provide an example of a correctly-behaving app?
> 
> IMFMRC, the only thing the Wimp does differently for a window with the 
> pane bit set is to give the parent window the input focus if the pane 
> gets it. All other behaviour has to be programmed by you. Can someone 
> confirm that my failing memory has indeed recalled correctly?

I think that's more or less it.  It's certainly up to the programmer to
keep the panes attached to their parents.

> > > These days you're probably better using the nested WIMP.
> 
> > What advantages does that provide?
> 
> Using child windows provides considerably more flexibility and control 
> than panes.

The key thing is that the Wimp handles all the work of keeping the pane in
the right place WRT its parent.  That is, you open the windows in the
right places relative to each other, tell the Wimp they are parent and
child, and forget about them.

There are other benefits that you can make use of if you assume the Nested
Wimp is present, too.  Unless there is a pressing reason for making the
software compatible with a vanilla RISC OS 3 setup (bearing in mind that
the Nested Wimp can be used on RISC OS 3), it makes sense to use the new
features.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
5/4/2008 1:25:17 PM
David <nospam@nomaps.amnops.invalid> wrote:

> I'm all for practical suggestions to improve RO. What I'm objecting to
> is the attitude of some folks here who slap down /every/ aspect of RO
> as being done better elsewhere (Windows is better than RO because Linux
> does [some action] better than RO - eh?); who declare every difference
> from RO in Windows to be an advantage (as, for example, Ray's take on
> Windows's split menu systems); who can't seem just to agree that
> something that RO does is 'good' but have to say that Windows/Linux is
> either better or just as good (but in a different way).

Ray said that he likes the way that Windows has context menus on the right
mouse button. THat is good. Ray also said that he likes the way you can
save files by dragging and dropping in RISC OS and wished he could do it
in Windows. That is also good.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/4/2008 1:34:48 PM
Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

> In a dim and distant universe
> <gemini.k0c4hs000imsc014s.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> 
> > I think that most people accept that a lot of RISC OS users have
> > Windows or other machines because they need to do things that RISC OS
> > can't do.
> 
> I bought a Mac, purely for video editing, but I find that I've not used
> it in several months now.

Becuase you aren't doing video editing at the moment, or because you are
doing it on RISC OS instead of the Mac?

> Occasionally people send me YouTube links, but I just delete them
> because I find that YouTube is so full of tat, it's rarely worth the
> effort of turning the Mac on and copying the URL across to it from the
> Iyonix. It's far quicker to just delete the email and move onto the next
> one.

But that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. If RISC OS can't
access it, you aren't going to see it. Presumably if someone is in a
position to access you directly by email they must be people who would
send you sensible links :-)

Cheers,

Ray D

 
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/4/2008 1:38:44 PM
In article <4f9a30a8e1invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> Another thing in Windows that constantly annoys me is the way it
> automatically truncates menus by only displaying a tiny subset of the menu
> options available and you have to constantly expand the menu to get at the
> other options.

That reminds me of another thing I hate about Windows (tm) - it seems to be
a Microsoft trait more than other apps though. It's the way they insist on
calling all their windows "Microsoft" "App" "Title" so when you minimise a
load of (say) Excel spreadsheets, they all appear in that toolbar at the
bottom called "Microsoft...". Ooo helpful!

So you have to hover your mouse pointer over them to find out which is which
and, shock, the popup help is ALSO TRUNCATED and LEFT ALIGNED! What on Earth
were the muppets thinking when they implemented that?!?

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
0
steve417 (852)
5/4/2008 1:39:49 PM
In article <4f9a317fcbinvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <4f9a2c2111richtnews@uwclub.net>,
>    Richard Travers <richtnews@uwclub.net> enlightened us thusly:
> > It seems doubtful to me. I already can open the menu with one key on the
> > keyboard. Admittedly this is a Microsoft keyboard, but I _am_ working on
> > the RISC OS desktop. Then all I need is the cursor keys to move up and
> > down the menu, and 'Enter' to make a selection. I don't believe the
> > cursor keys and the 'Enter' key are difficult to remember. Sadly, I do
> > not yet have that facility.

> Download Steve Revill's latest version of WinMenu then -
> http://www.7thsoftware.com/software.htm

Indeed - I have just downloaded it and tried it out. It works splendidly in
some apps (Pluto, Artworks) but not in Photodesk or Ovation Pro (the latter
being where I really need it). It is a good and significant first step,
though, and thanks to Steve for taking it. I just really hope it can be
taken further to full and universal functionality.

> He only added this yesterday, and I doubt you'd get such excellent (and
> quick) service from Microsoft programmers! :-)

Isn't it nice that, instead of poo-pooing the suggestion, or questioning
whether it is needed or how it could be done, or criticising it as being a
troll from a Windows' fanboy, somebody has actually taken it seriously and
done something about it. Full marks to Steve!

> > I am _not_ saying that the mouse is not a great way of doing other
> > things. I _am_ saying that RISC OS would be much more productive in the
> > kind of situation that I am describing, if menus could be accessed and
> > used from the keyboard.

> Before everyone saying that this is a major shortcoming of RISC OS and
> moaning about it (and I'll admit that Windows/MacOS keyboard navigation is
> better than RISC OS), how many people actually require this.

There you go, you see. A suggestion for a way in which the RISC OS menu
system can be improved gets turned into the suggestion that I (or others)
are claiming it as a major shortcoming which I am 'moaning' about. It isn't
and I am not, but it would be nice, and a great aid to productivity to have
the suggestion implemented.

Who 'requires' it? Well anyone who is typing a lot of text into a
wordprocessor or DTP application, or data into a spreadsheet would certainly
benefit.

> It's all well and good saying that such and such is no good or could be
> better but how many people actually *require* this. Although I agree it's
> one area RISC OS may be lacking - from a generic point of view. From a
> reality point of view, I have no need for keyboard navigation, as I prefer
> using a mouse for desktop use.

Then you are a happy man. You are happy, so presumably everybody else is
too.

> At the end of the day, if all the existing RISC OS users are perfectly
> happy with the GUI and all the people who complain about it are perfectly
> happy using Windows, then there's no point wasting resources in an attempt
> to change the status quo.

Ah, so the RISC OS GUI is so perfect it can't be improved? And offering
suggestions to improve it is 'complaining' about it? So we should keep the
status quo? If everybody takes that attitude, then RISC OS will be dead
within my lifetime.

> Where we need new improvements and things is in attracting *new* users to
> RISC OS (something I've done quite a lot of recently, and keyboard
> navigation didn't even come into it!). However, for this, I'm sure there
> are more important gaps in RISC OS' capability than adding keyboard
> shortcuts.

But they help. RISC OS has a nice user interface, but IT CAN BE IMPROVED,
and if you are trying to gain new recruits from Windows (where else would
they come from) they are going to require two things, applications that
match the capabilities that Windows' applications give them (yes, some of
them might even want to access YouTube), and a user interface that allows
them to do the things they can do on the GUI they are accustomed to.

> > Can you? Actually the touch pad on a lap-top is rather closer to the
> > keyboard than the mouse, so in some ways it is easier. Sadly, I haven't
> > seen news of a RISC OS laptop yet.

> Aggghh! Nooooo. laptop touch pads are absolutely useless and worse than
> useless (again, IMHO - other people may /love/ then). I can't use the
> touchpad on either my Apple Powerbook or Linux laptop. I have to plug a
> mouse in before I can use them.

Once again, the extreme opinion. 'Absolutely useless'? No. Not as good as a
mouse, but functional enough to be useable, and certainly essential when you
have no surface to place your mouse on. Of course, you will never use your
laptop in such a situation, but I can assure you that if